========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:13:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > > ...for a supernatural, shapeshifting, furry, fanged, and clawed engine > > of destruction. > > But she's a purely natural, shapeshifting, pure blooded alphatian wizard! Pure-blooded shapeshifter? What's in Alphatia's water? > > Which is PC4? > > PC4: Night Howlers > It's the basic D&D accessory that shows how to make Werecharacters! It's > pretty cool, and covers all the major weretypes there are. Ah, cool. I never saw this. Until now, I never knew it existed. Which sucks, 'cause I used to play a weretiger. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 03:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <39F29380.7F6FD2A@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > Pure-blooded shapeshifter? What's in Alphatia's water? Ah, see, on Mystara, it was Alphatian tinkering that caused lycanthropy to occur as an infectious virus. Before that time, there was a race of Alphatians who had natural shapeshifitng powers. My character was born long before the lycanthropy scourge, and was born a tiger shapeshifter. None of the supernatural stuff. No special resistances to weapons, or succumbing to the moon. > Ah, cool. I never saw this. Until now, I never knew it existed. You can pick it up pretty easily. As it was one of the last D&D books produced, it isn't as rare as some others, like PC2, or PC1, especially. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 02:41:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought this might be of interest on the topic, I,ve been trying to reverse engineer to find out home many troops my dominion can really support but this article gives a good idea of population per sq mile and I think the area of surface for mystara is given in the front of the PWA. (I know the diameter is, anyone know the formulae for the area of a sphere?) I'm reconning people go with about 30 people a sq mile overall. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 02:54:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii sorry heres the address for that artical. (see previous post) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:12:42 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > In fact, Gnomes are very prevalent in Vulcania. Right! I forgot the Snartan Empire :) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:39:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaham Ilan wrote: > > How about those wierd elves-ogres in Davania I considered them among the "wierds", obviously :) > and elves in Davania at > general? And there are lots of elves in the savage coast, so maybe they are > found also in central and western Brun in significant numbers? Their diffusion is limited by the existance of Hule, where demi-humans are definitely unwelcome. Moreover, I considered elves as existing only where the migrations have brought them. That is, a few leftovers along their path in the Savage Coast, the Sheyallia in Graakhalia, those in the Known World and the Alphatians/Norwold/Isle of Dawn group. > There is also room (and historical reasoning) for a frightingly large > population of Hin (or another name Halflings call themselves) on Davania. For both elves and halflings, I considered them extinct in Davania (or, as for the Ndjatwa, crossbreeds no more recognizable as elves). > > plus 50k gnomes. > > Agreed. I would suggest to start breeding gnomes in captivity. LOL! > WE know they are a few in the savage coast. So we have them all over > Mystara. Maybe as being a hunter-gatherer society they are spread about > larger territories than humans. So tribes are far between. Consider that the Simbasta, Fast Runners and other breeds occupy the Meghala Kimata and most Savannah areas of Davania, from Vanya's Rest on the eastern coast to the Addakian region. They are quite sparse, but they occupy an incredibly large surface. > I guess after the conquest of Alfheim/Aengmor we won't see Centaurs there in > the near future. But I believe they should be as prolific as rakasta (as > they are a similar semi-barbaric culture) all across central Brun, I suppose they were most common in the great woodlands near Greatrealm, but they were chased by the Master of Hule. and there > could be virtually millions across the central plains of Davania (the whole > Milenian- mythological greece feel of the region, the landscape and all) They would have an hard competition from the Rakasta. Also, Centaurs are best fitted for woodlands, not savannah, IIRC. > 15,000 dragons! IMO we are talking about a much smaller population. I > believe tha Wyrmteeth nation with it's 1000 strong population should be the > ONLY dragon nation in the world. That was an upper bound, of course. I did a rough guess by supposing a number of dragons equal to the Wyrmteeth kingdom for every Known World + Norwold sized region. > Can the world handle 15k dragons? [...] > I would say 2-5K, and only a fraction of those preying on civilised > lands. Remember that dragons can eat almost anything, from sentient beings to minerals (at least in AD&D). > > Orcs 1.500.000 (Incl. Ogres & Trolls) > > Why including Ogres and Trolls with orcs? Because they are often living with them, and are to few to be considered alone. > These numbers are kind of hard to agree on as we don't have enough > "evidence" in canon even to start reasonings. While the numbers I had in > mind are not too different from yours I can find millions of different ways > to change them and still be in accordance with the canon number of > creatures. Sure. Since 2/3 of Mystara aren't detailed by the canon, it is possible to consider them anything from depopulated wastelands to bulging metropolitan agglomerates. > I think what is importent for a DM to know is what are the ratios of > population races in his game world. It is all in how a DM sets the level of > fantasy in his game world- high fantasy vs low fantasy. [..] > I think this is one of the things that add flavor to each DMs unique > campaign. True. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:07:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans can fit on the head of a pin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > >> Personally, I don't think there are many large (human) empires on > south-western Davania or Skothar. Northern Brun seems to be ocupied by > sprse barbarian and goblinoid tribes. << > > There might not be. Point is, who knows? Sure, we don't. I just guess it through a few clues: western Brun includes a large chunk of land which shares the same latitude as northern Norwold (beyond the Great Bay). To the South, there is a canon Empire (Hule), plus we can add the two fan created empires (I gave the three of them an estimated total of 6M humans). We know from X11 and Glantri Gaz that west of Glantri and Wendar/Denagoth there aren't large kingdoms (nor small ones, just barbarian tribes). W know that the western coast of Brun, north of the Arm of the Immortal and south of Hyborea holds the Sylvan Realms, which is not supposed to be populated by humans, IIRC. We are left with a region not bigger than Sind, located north of Hule and east of the Sylvan Realm. I could do the same for Davania and Skothar, but I don't think it will help. > >> This supposes the presence of very large empires on eastern Skothar. << > > Or medium sized ones there with some other medium sized nations in the "unmapped" parts of Davania (the population number we have for Davania only includes the area mapped in PWA II, which isn't nearly most of Davania). Mapped parts of Davania (IIRC), using the names from the Master Set's map: The Coast, Arypt, Vulture peninsula, Barbarians. If we add to these the high mountain region and the southernmost vulcanian mountains (too cold), we are left with the Snartan Empire (which I did forget), and Pelatan. Using the fan developed version of Pelatan, it is 1M people. Otherwise, you can give a different estimate, but hardly be more than Known World + Norwold, due to the size. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:21:29 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > Btw, I'm not sure where all the Rakasta & Lupins on Ochalea are comming from, I think I remember reading something along those lines but now I don't know where. I'm actually interested in people's sources for that, so if someone knows, please mail me (either on the list or privately). Bruce Heard's articles on Rakasta & Lupins are the main (and only) source for this. Here are the references: "Campaign Classics: Lupins of the Mystara Setting", on Dragon Magazine 237. "Rakasta of Mystara", on Dragon Magazine 247. The Rakasta subrace present in Ochalea is the Pardasta, while the native Ochalean Lupin breeds are the Shar-pei, Ochalean Crested, Ochalean Houndling and Ogrish Chow Chow. > Well, if one is going to include the Rakasta of the invisible moon, then one *certainly* must include the creatures who live in the sea Sure. It's just that I have no clue about them (I need at least one nation's figures to draw estimates for the rest...) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:59:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leonardo Giuliani wrote: > Can I ask you what's your favourite character class? > I always like the elves, their ability of warriors and mages at the = same times makes them my favourite class.. :-) This question doesn't exactly relate much to Mystara, but what the heck. = ;) In OD&D I've always preferred to play thief. I'd die in hack'n'slash, = but it's been quite some time, since I've played such an adventure. And = if the thief class stinks so bad, why am I always the one, who has to = save everybody else, when the chips are down? :) In AD&D my favorite class (or kit) is the swashbuckler. Pure attitude, = high dexterity, acrobatic feats (no, not those Feats!), rapiers... It's = sad that when forced into the wilderness, I'm very much out of my = natural element, though. I play my OD&D thieves a lot like = swashbucklers, too, so if OD&D had swashbucklers... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 03:39:54 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leonardo Giuliani wrote: > Can I ask you what's your favourite character class? > I always like the elves, their ability of warriors and mages at the same times makes them my favourite class.. :-) i like Elves, Mages, Priest (no spezific god) and sometimes Warriors - but only with a good story. in AD&D i like Elves with fighter/mages combinations. if i have to vote for one - i will chose Elves (elven fighter/mages). IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:24:44 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:15 PM 10/21/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I am disgusted by the bonuses that werebeasts get. > >Weretigers get +12 to strength while werewolves get +2? > >Werebears also get obscene strength bonuses. > >But, wildly enough, no creature gets a penalty! I remember in PC4, >Weretigers get a +2 strength bonus, but they also lose 2 points of wisdom! This is my biggest problem with it. I understand that, in theory, the ability scores mean different things now- what with everyone having one- and that they are relative to one another, but I guess I'm too attached to the "everything that is strengthened should have some counter balance" theory. That's the main reason I don't think the templates work as PC add ons (and, again, perhaps they were never really meant to). I'm trying to figure out a way to balance that in the Prestige format class of them that I'm working on, but it's tough. Overall, I think the major solution will have to come in throwing a lot of campaign penalties (roleplaying penalties) in the way of lycanthropes. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:30:41 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaun Muncy Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/00 2:20:09 AM Central Daylight Time, xenya@TELEPORT.COM writes: > Pure-blooded shapeshifter? What's in Alphatia's water? Alphatia. "Chaos rules, so I'm in charge." - Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Ruler of the Lost City; Kobold Tactician; Keeper of the Mystic Sock. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:47:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001021092546.00797ce0@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:25 AM 10/21/00 -0700, you wrote: > > You watch too much BtVS! 'sides, most of them are in the 3E MM, as well, >under Vampire Spawn. (Why does it get a seperate entry? Dunno.) I'm not sure of that either- they aren't *that* different. As far as Intelligence goes, I mean, yes, I can see that the "mythic" image of the Vampire is an ancient, powerful, calculating evil, and so I can see where they get the idea of giving them greater intellect. I'm just not terribly in favor of "Joe Farmer Down the Lane" being turned into a vampire and suddenly becoming Einstein, you know? (Okay, slight exaggeration, and I suppose Joe Farmer is probably more a Vampire Spawn than a Vampire...) >>As far as Lycanthropes, I think (again) they are too powerful, not to >>mention they just don't quite have the flavor of the PC4 lycanthropes. > > How so? I liked the idea of gradually increasing one's control and power over the form, as opposed to just having a "generic" Polymorph Self effect with Damage Reduction capacity. Admittedly the "Control Shape" skill goes a long way towards simulating this (as David Knott pointed out), but I also like the "special" abilities- the Wolf's Howl, the Tiger's Roar, etc. > I've got an important lycanthrope NPC I've been waiting to apply stats >to, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Cool. I'll post it soon. Got a lot of things to finish up this weekend first, but hopefully next week. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 06:01:36 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun Muncy wrote: > > > Pure-blooded shapeshifter? What's in Alphatia's water? > > Alphatia. I find this far funnier than I should. That's what I get for knowing what you're talking about. :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:28:21 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: ***To the administrator & Shawn.*** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please subcribe em with vinimagus@stivip.com.br and unsubscribe vini@engineer.com my friend. Shawn, the site is kicking ##s. Thanks to you, True RPG people. If you are reading this and you are NOT the adm or Shwn, hello to you, anyway. ;-) TIA. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:35:16 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think if you get people act united - even NPCs - you can have VERY GOOD role-playing using Faith magic, focus, combined magic etc... th eToM stuff. I've read it for the 1000th time yesterday. It is one point where priests are nicer than wizards. I've been a wiz for almost 10 year now. Wild, BTW. But started playing as a Dragonlance Mishakal priest, non-agressive, much like Gandhi. I am loving it. Been missing people in this list. Cheers. vini. erewan laubgaenger wrote: > > Leonardo Giuliani wrote: > > > Can I ask you what's your favourite character class? > > I always like the elves, their ability of warriors and mages at the same times makes them my favourite class.. :-) > > i like Elves, Mages, Priest (no spezific god) and sometimes Warriors - but only with a good story. > in AD&D i like Elves with fighter/mages combinations. > > if i have to vote for one - i will chose Elves (elven fighter/mages). > IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:36:31 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza or Israel people? (please don't flame me) vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:46:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can I ask you what's your favourite character class? > I always like the elves, their ability of warriors and mages at the same times makes them my favourite class.. :-) > personnally i've always preferred the thief, followed by the mage.i've always hated clerics,but then i feel that way about them in the real world too. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? >> Bruce Heard's articles on Rakasta & Lupins are the main (and only) source for this. Here are the references: "Campaign Classics: Lupins of the Mystara Setting", on Dragon Magazine 237. "Rakasta of Mystara", on Dragon Magazine 247. << Ok, cool. I had forgotten about those. 8-) >> or both elves and halflings, I considered them extinct in Davania << I don't think that elves, at least, are extinct in Davania. I'm not sure that Halflings are, either, but we at least have evidence for elves in Davania: p.18 of the Player's Guide to Thyatis (DotE), under "Races and Character Classes", mentions southern elf-clans in the Hinterlands. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:34:08 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > > Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Actually, they never lived in Alfheim. And they aren't even distantly related to the Alfheimers... you must go back to blackmoor age to find common ancestors. They may not be evil, but they aren't good either, especially those who guide them (especially considering that Canolbarth was not so useful to them, not as a place to live in, anyway). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Artifacts work on the Day of Dread, but Immortal Magic (which would include Artifacts) doesn't work during the Weeks Without Magic (as WotI indicates). The problem with that is that Immortal magic works, at least partially during that time - the Red Sun is extinguished only for a day and not a week, the floating islands of Ar don't crash to the ground, and if you have a second WWM while Alphatia is sinking then you also have the fact that the Immortals transport Alphatia and its inhabitants (including, canon says, some that were still alive - if they waited a whole week not many would still be alive). ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:25:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Knott >Another idea on the second Week Without Magic: >Note that its effects are described in very similar terms to the later annual Day of Dread (since Immortal magic still works). At the time of the sinking of Alphatia, a Day of Dread occurs. Since it does not occur on Kaldmont 28 (the only day on which this event had occurred every few decades or so in the past) and since it comes close on A DoD has never occured before. Kaldmont 28 was a day of strange sightings in the sky and such - but not days of dread. >the heels of the real Week Without Magic, most people (including Immortals such as Benekander) believe that it is another Week Without Magic. However, when magic returns a day later, some spellcasters gradually discover that magic works once again, and the situation gradually returns to normal as word gets around. Because this event proves to be of shorter duration and lesser severity than the Week Without Magic, it is mostly forgotten in the years that follow. That is a possibility, yes. But, since the only reference in canon to a second wwm is that note in the WotI adventure that for one week there will be no magic, changing it to one day is changing canon as much as having no second wwm at all. Having one day of dread at that time allows to have the Alphatian wizards of the council trapped in Glantri (and thus many die), but it also still contradicts other parts of canon that have some wizards try to save the day in alphatia. OTOH it explains why Immortal magic keeps working (for instance, why the Red Sun doesn't go black again). ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:42:52 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >what's the problem with having a second WWM? Nothing specific, I wouldn't mind having a second WWM. The problem is that some other elements don't fit with a second WWM. What elements? The fact that some Alphatian wizards try to save their lives or their communities during the sinking of Alphatia (sinking that lasts only a few hours), using magic. Eg Zandor flees teleporting to near Aquas, or the king of Aquas tries to save his city (but is killed by a collapsing building). The fact that Immortal magic keeps working. Benekander heals the PCs, the Red Sun doesn't go black again (you might argue that then we just have to say it goes black a second time, but then that contradicts what is written in HW3 and HWQ1, because the whole Zargosian plot is based on the sun going down only once). The Immortals save Alphatia. And, well, the fact that nobody ever mentioned two weeks without magic. Replacing the 2nd WWK with a DoD would work better, as it would allow for Immortal magic. The only glitch would then be reduced to only the Alphatian wizards (in which case you can say that those that did something did it by directing crews of commoners, not magic, and that Zandor happened to not be on the mainland at the time). It would work quite well that way. The only other discrepancy I can see then is that in the first PWA spellcasters are suprised by the DoD and fear the magic will be gone for one week again - or forever; but then you can easily ignore it and say they fear that during that DoD [the one that replaces the 2nd WWM] and that during the DoD of PWA1 they wonder why it happens (there's no destruction of Alphatia occuring) and whether it is a day, a week, or forever. The reason I favor no second WWM is because it isn't really needed. It doesn't bring anything new, except augmenting the casualty rate among spellcasters worldwide and especially the Alphatian wizards over Glantri, but other than that, nothing but redundance and contradiction with other elements. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001022052444.007f75f0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > ability scores mean different things now- what with everyone having one- Well, I always considered monsters to have ability scores :) But it seems so odd not to have penalties! Anyhoo - I think for NPC's I'll use the templates. For PC's I'll see. I'm interested in your prestige class, though I bet I could adapt the PC4 rules too :) Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Shaun Muncy wrote: > In a message dated 10/22/00 2:20:09 AM Central Daylight Time, > xenya@TELEPORT.COM writes: > > > Pure-blooded shapeshifter? What's in Alphatia's water? > > Alphatia. Ouch. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:31:25 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: [3E] What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <39F29380.7F6FD2A@teleport.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:13 10/22/00 -0700, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: >> PC4: Night Howlers >> It's the basic D&D accessory that shows how to make Werecharacters! It's >> pretty cool, and covers all the major weretypes there are. > >Ah, cool. I never saw this. Until now, I never knew it existed. > >Which sucks, 'cause I used to play a weretiger. The supplement is good, but not spectacular, unless you've got a game set in Glantri, as it goes into extreme detail into one region (later principality) of Glantri for its setting info. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:37:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001022054733.007fe8c0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > into a vampire and suddenly becoming Einstein, you know? (Okay, slight > exaggeration, and I suppose Joe Farmer is probably more a Vampire Spawn > than a Vampire...) Or a nosferatu! I'd consider Vampires to be more like a Dracula-type, surviving a VERY long time, and growing these cool powers with experience. Joe farmer is going to have the power level of your average Buffy vamp. i.e. pretty poor. > way towards simulating this (as David Knott pointed out), but I also like > the "special" abilities- the Wolf's Howl, the Tiger's Roar, etc. Well, we can simulate them with house rools :) OR, we can say "canon wise" that "due to the nature of Mystara's lycanthropism" Were creatures get these x cool powers. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:35:37 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001022052444.007f75f0@pop.wans.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:24 10/22/00 -0700, Andrew Theisen wrote: >This is my biggest problem with it. I understand that, in theory, the >ability scores mean different things now- what with everyone having one- >and that they are relative to one another, but I guess I'm too attached to >the "everything that is strengthened should have some counter balance" >theory. That's the main reason I don't think the templates work as PC add >ons (and, again, perhaps they were never really meant to). > >I'm trying to figure out a way to balance that in the Prestige format class >of them that I'm working on, but it's tough. Overall, I think the major >solution will have to come in throwing a lot of campaign penalties >(roleplaying penalties) in the way of lycanthropes. I think those already exist, don't they? The prestige class, IMO, should have stiff requirements -- be fifth level, have lycanthropy, find a teacher who won't tear your throat out -- but should be otherwise a good thing, where the character can learn the other forms, boost their summoning abilities, boost their damage reduction, et cetera. Otherwise, why take the prestige class when multiclassing into, say, ranger has no downsides? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:39:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Gnomes (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-22 2:21:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU writes: > In fact, Gnomes are very prevalent in Vulcania. They exist there -- whether they are "prevalent" is an unanswered question. The impression I have gotten is that Gnomes are not very numerous anywhere, even in their supposed "homelands". In a message dated 2000-10-22 7:03:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > Right! I forgot the Snartan Empire :) Has the "Snartan Empire gazetteer" ever been uploaded to a Web site? I have seen it mentioned several times on this list but have never come across the details in my Web browsing. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:39:01 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-21 5:08:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > David Knott wrote: > > > > I suspect that an even greater percentage is Human (perhaps 90%). > > Why? On Davania, humans are not prevalent, and Rakasta seem pretty > common on Skothar, too. The average "non-colonized" area might be like > the Orc's Head in the Savage Coast. Again the estimates are based on what one might expect to find in the unexplored regions of Mystara. I was assuming that we would find the same sort of random hodgepodge that we find in the explored regions. If we use the rapidly developed Savage Coast as an example, then we get a whole bunch of new Human cultures, a few new races not previously encountered, and scattered settlements of other known races. Based on generalized summaries of those continents, I would expect Davania to be sparsely inhabited and probably tilt the balance against Humans (as PWA II lists it as having two million humans and demi- humans and an unknown number of other sentients), but Skothar would even more strongly tilt the balance in favor of humans (and that is supposing that the entire continent is fairly sparsely populated). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:37:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: What does everyone think of templates? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001022054733.007fe8c0@pop.wans.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:47 10/22/00 -0700, Andrew Theisen wrote: >I liked the idea of gradually increasing one's control and power over the >form, as opposed to just having a "generic" Polymorph Self effect with >Damage Reduction capacity. Admittedly the "Control Shape" skill goes a long >way towards simulating this (as David Knott pointed out), but I also like >the "special" abilities- the Wolf's Howl, the Tiger's Roar, etc. Perfect lycanthrope prestige class class powers. >Cool. I'll post it soon. Got a lot of things to finish up this weekend >first, but hopefully next week. Hey, I promised my hin master, hin pirate and hin krondar first, so don't think I'm going to be outraged if the lycanthrope prestige class isn't done ASAP. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? In-Reply-To: <39F3178F.8061EC75@engineer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza > or Israel people? That's a toughie, and the major problem with applying the good-evil axis to Mystara. The Shaodw Elves are seen as dark, brooding and evil by the surface elves, and not trusted by most other surface races. The SE's see the surface races as unaccepting, bigoted jerks who want to hog everything. As with everything on Mystara (and in the real world!) Godd and Evil are relative. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Evil Genius wrote: > I don't think that elves, at least, are extinct in Davania. I'm not sure that Halflings are, either, but we at least have evidence for elves in Davania: Also, there are the barbarian ice elves that the Princess Ark visited near the south polar icecap. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:41:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Are shadow elves evil? In-Reply-To: <39F3178F.8061EC75@engineer.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:36 10/22/00 -0300, Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: >Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza >or Israel people? > >(please don't flame me) Then don't end your questions with such loaded examples. The shadow elves are taking something else entirely, for motives they themselves seem to know are vindictive. Their belief seems to be more "those bastards deserve to suffer," rather than "let us return to the glorious homeland that we cannot even see during daylight initially!" I like the idea that they're growing up, though, now that they're on the surface. If the surface elves let them, I wouldn't be surprised if they can come to a peaceful agreement within the next two decades. Of course, that doesn't affect me: My EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL shadow elf NPC in my Karameikos chronicle -- who is a royal bastard, as those of you who remember my Fort Boldiszorvic write-up recall -- is kicking around in 1013, long before any peace deals are done. ... It'd be interesting to see him exposed and trying to pass off all his nastiness as "I was just doing my job, though. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:12:47 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Tomas Sanchez Organization: Mystara Mailing List Subject: The Great Valley, The Well of the Moon, The Pachydermions and Khompor-Tap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear fellows. During the course of X5 : The Temple of Death my poor players found the Well of the Moon and after investigating its unique and miraculous powers decided to wait until the phase of the moon allowed them to climb its silver stairs up to the moon. Trying to find some sense to the well purpose I created a story. I decided the valley was the last refuge of an ancient race, the Pachydermions, who inspired by an immortal constructed a relic which allow their passage to a new world avoiding extinction. The walls of the valley were carved, showing crude statues of imposing height which reminded me somehow those of the Island of Pascua and I described them so, remarking their "wide" faces and "long" noses. After all night climbing stairs they arrived at Patera, the hidden moon, amidst the ruins of a temple, at the bottom of a well which resembled the one they left, surrounded by a dense jungle , they were in Khompor-tap. That's all. I desperately need the following information to continue : * Whatever you can share about Pachydermions. * Whatever you can share about Myoshima and Khompor-Tap. * Who have knowledge of Patera's existence ? Who have visited it and when ? Who have them contacted on the moon? ( If any ) Post-data : Andrew, I checked some of your excerpts on Shawn's Site and looked very promising. Please e-mail me anything you wrote since there. A map, even rough, would be helpful. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe ------------------------------------------------ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:05:52 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Gnomes In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:39 10/22/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >> In fact, Gnomes are very prevalent in Vulcania. > >They exist there -- whether they are "prevalent" is an unanswered >question. The impression I have gotten is that Gnomes are not >very numerous anywhere, even in their supposed "homelands". Well, it's not like outsiders are given tours of Highforge on a regular basis ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:27:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul Benfield Subject: 3e Champion of Zirchev MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here's my latest work, the Champion of Zirchev. If the formatting of the email goes awry then it's on my web page under the Rules/3e D&D Prestige Classes section. Cheers Paul Benfield http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.benfield ---------------------- Champion of Zirchev Modern Karameikos despite heavy colonisation remains an empty and wild country. Population centres are concentrated along the major rivers and roads leaving large unsettled forests, plains and empty valleys. In this untamed land Rangers have always had a special part to play and it was one of these stout warriors who became one of the three patrons of Traldar society. With the recent recovery of ancient texts some Rangers and Sorcerors of Karameikos have formed a group who seek to maintain the balance with nature whilst at the same time protecting and providing for the communities around them. The Champions of Zirchev strive to live as Zirchev would expect; in tune with nature and sensitive to the needs of the Traladar. Requirements Alignment: Any neutral. Race: Born in Traladar/Karameikos (or lived most of life there). Skills: Handle Animal 4 Ability to cast 1st level Divine Spells or 3rd level Arcane Spells The Champions of Zirchev are all individuals with strong ties to their land, whether they have never left their sheltered valley home or if they have wandered the length and breadth of Karameikos they know and have a deep respect for the land. Hit Dice: d8 Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Bonus Save Save Save Special Spells 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Zirchev's Servant +1 Sorceror level 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Mounted Archery Ranger Spells: 1 1st 3 +1 +3 +1 +3 Mounted Combat Ranger Spells: 2 1st 4 +2 +4 +1 +4 Heightened Skill +1 Sorceror level 5 +2 +4 +1 +4 Heightened Skill +1 Sorceror level 6 +3 +5 +2 +5 Heightened Sense Ranger Spells:2 1st,1 2nd 7 +4 +5 +2 +5 Ranger spells: 2 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd 8 +5/+1 +6 +2 +6 Heightened Skill Ranger Spells: 2 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd 9 +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 +1 Sorceror level 10 +7/+3 +7 +3 +7 Heightened Sense Ranger Spells: 2 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th Class skills Move Silently, Spot, Swim, Knowledge (Nature), Wilderness Lore, Rope Use, Intuit Direction, Climb, Search, Animal Empathy, Handle Animal, Jump Skill Points: 2 + Int per level Class Features Champions of Zirchev are proficient in the use of all simple weapons and they can learn the Shortbow or Longbow as Martial Weapon Proficiencies. The Longbow and the Spear are the favoured weapons of Zirchev. The Champions are proficient with lighter types of armour at best Studded Leather and with shields although normal penalties apply for both when using certain skills or any arcane spells. Track: All Champions learn to track and hunt in the wilderness as part of their intensive training. Zirchev's Servant: As a first level Champion the character can use a modified summon familiar spell to bring one creature to accompany and aid him or her. The type of familiar is chosen by the caster although it can only be one of the following animals of symbolic importance to Zirchev; a dog, a hawk, an owl or a horse. Normal rules for familiars apply as per the Sorceror class. Mounted Archer / Combat: At the appropriate level all Champions of Zirchev learn to fight with a variety of weapons whilst on horseback. In fact almost all of the Champions spend a great deal of time on wilderness trails and therefore need to be able to react to situations without first dismounting and securing their horse. Heightened Sense: Zirchev received gifts from the Immortals in the form of enhanced senses. Each time the character receives this ability he should pick one sense from the following to have magically improved. Hawk's sight: The character's visual range is doubled allowing him to see twice as far, to read at twice the normal distance. He will never suffer from poor eye sight as long as he lives. Spot, search, Track and other visual checks all receive a +3 bonus. Wolf's hearing: The character's hearing is improved drastically allowing him to hear sounds at greater distance with greater clarity. The character's hearing will remain perfect till the end of his life. Listen checks receive a +3 bonus. Dog's sense: The characters sense of smell increases in sensitivity allowing him to distinguish between subtler smells. The character's sense of smell is more resilient than normal and he receives a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves against any sort of nausea or smell attack. Track checks if receive a +3 bonus athe sense of smell is appropriate. Heightened Skill: Champions of Zirchev receive their patrons blessing in the form of improved mastery of certain physical/wilderness skills. Each time the Champion gains this ability he should chose one skill from the list that follows. Checks against that skill are made with the Champion's level (not counting levels from other classes) as an additional bonus. Climb, Swim, Ride or Jump. Spells: Champions of Zirchev excel at magic of several kinds due to their patron Immortal's affinity with the magical arts. Each level gained increases the Champion's casting level in one of two classes. This does not confer abilities or bonuses other than the equivalent spell casting ability and selection of spells. Note that if the character has no Ranger levels prior to becoming a Champion of Zirchev then he gains automatic spell use as indicated by a number of spells of set levels. If he already possess Ranger levels then ignore this information and simply increase the characters effective Ranger level regarding spell ability once for each time an entry entitled Ranger Spells is reached. The Ranger spell progression for a Champion of Zirchev mirrors the Sorceror pattern more than that of a normal Ranger - building up more spells of a given level before gaining access to the next higher one.Example: a level 6 Cleric / level 5 Champion of Zirchev would have 2 1st level Ranger spells a day whereas a level 5 Ranger / level 5 Champion of Zirchev would have 1 1st level and 1 2nd level Ranger spell. This reflects the influence of Sorcerous training on the Champion's study of nature magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:26:09 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: 3E Lycanthropes (was What does everyone think of templates?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-21 7:33:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, xenya@TELEPORT.COM writes: > This is based on a conclusion that does not follow the premise - given > that lycanthropes *already* violate conservation of mass/energy in the > shapeshift, demanding that a small demihuman should become a medium > tiger strikes me as peculiar. On the other hand, given that much of the strength bonus that a Weretiger gets is based on the size of the tiger form, the amount of the bonus should have something to do with just how much larger the lycanthrope becomes when he changes shape. The lycanthrope template does seem to assume that the base humanoid form is size Medium -- and the results do seem a little strange when applied to smaller or larger creatures. Two examples: Ogre: An ogre/weretiger does not change size categories and thus should not get as much of a strength bonus as a human/weretiger. Alternatively, if they do get the same strength bonus, then perhaps they should be Huge rather than merely Large Shapechangers. Gnome: Going from Small to Large, a Gnome/Weretiger should get an even bigger boost to strength than a Human/Weretiger. Alternatively, you could make their were-form smaller as I suggested. Either way, conservation of mass is not the issue -- the question is one of quantifying the size change, if any. Once that part is explained properly, you could impose appropriate penalties to dexterity for those lycanthropes who become substantially larger in animal form. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:26:07 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-22 1:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hmusseau@YAHOO.COM writes: > A DoD has never occured before. Kaldmont 28 was a day of strange sightings in > the sky and such - but not days of dread. DotE does mention a possibility for magic to fail that day in the section on the Alphatian calendar. > >the heels of the real Week Without Magic, most people (including > Immortals such as Benekander) believe that it is another Week > Without Magic. However, when magic returns a day later, some > spellcasters gradually discover that magic works once again, and > the situation gradually returns to normal as word gets around. > Because this event proves to be of shorter duration and lesser > severity than the Week Without Magic, it is mostly forgotten > in the years that follow. > > That is a possibility, yes. > But, since the only reference in canon to a second wwm is that note in the > WotI > adventure that for one week there will be no magic, changing it to one day > is > changing canon as much as having no second wwm at all. > Having one day of dread at that time allows to have the Alphatian wizards of > the council trapped in Glantri (and thus many die), but it also still > contradicts other parts of canon that have some wizards try to save the day in > alphatia. OTOH it explains why Immortal magic keeps working (for instance, > why the Red Sun doesn't go black again). The information about just what happens to magic immediately after the sinking of Alphatia is indeed self-contradictory. How is this for a way to reconcile the conflicting information? After the destruction of Alphatia, the Nucleus goes into a week-long adjustment phase. For one week mortal magic (but not Immortal magic) cannot be cast, but ongoing spells remain in effect. The above explanation seems to be compatible with everything we know about the events surrounding the destruction of Alphatia. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:26:06 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: NoS draining Entropy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-21 4:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eyal_fleminger@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Is there any source stating that the magic drain is reversed rather than > just stopped? GAZ3 states that if the NoS is not used, the magic drain level > remains static, not reducing. Therefore, I think th NoS should start > draining Entropy, but without releasing the accumalated magic already in it. The only canonical information seems to indicate that there is no difference between a Nucleus that drains Entropy and one that drains Energy (as both Gaz 3 and GKoM use the same "Rad Drain" table). I came up with the "reverse drain" theory as a way for the alteration of the Nucleus in WotI to make some sort of difference. In practical terms, what happens next depends on the activities of those who serve the Sphere of Entropy. If they are able to correct the situation quickly, then the information given in GKoM about the likely near future is correct after all. On the other hand, if they fail to do anything to switch the drain back to the way it was, then any effects as the "Rad Drain Level" goes negative are centuries in the future and thus not of practical concern for any "normal" Mystara campaign. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:31:53 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > Based on generalized summaries of those continents, I would expect > Davania to be sparsely inhabited and probably tilt the balance against > Humans (as PWA II lists it as having two million humans and demi- > humans and an unknown number of other sentients), There is a large number of Rakasta, probably from 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire Rakasta population (Myoshima excluded) is on Davania. I would guess around 20% of the human population. > but Skothar > would even more strongly tilt the balance in favor of humans (and that > is supposing that the entire continent is fairly sparsely populated). Once more, there is a fairly large number of Rakasta on Skothar, so unless it is not so sparsely populated, the balance will not change much. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:37:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gnomes (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > Has the "Snartan Empire gazetteer" ever been uploaded to a Web site? > I have seen it mentioned several times on this list but have never come > across the details in my Web browsing. http://dnd.starflung.com/snart.html -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:40:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Beau wrote: > > > Of course. > > (Invades Ethan's house.) > > Agh! Luckily I'm still a 36th level oD&D mage, 9 3rd level spells :) > > Ethan Ha! 36th lvl and still mortal?! Tzzz, tzzz. You must have done something really wrong... :) And even more: Say, you don�t have the ability of spell combination? At least the owner of Glantri-GAZ should know that and use it. I for myself thought since my first steps in OD&D: "Why does a 3rd lvl mage can only cast two magic missles, like the lesser 2nd lvl mage?" Another question: Did anyone in AD&D, 2nd, multi-class a fighter to a paladin? In the rules it seems to be allowed, but it would make the weapon specialisation restriction for paladin kind of useless?! In OD&D the Paladin was just a fighter with divine blessing. And I don�t see the point in restricting the paladin in his fighting capabilities just because he has other benefits. In my campaigns, the paladin ist punished enough by the strict code of his religious order. But he�s hell a fighter :) Say, does anyone know the TV-series "Robin Hood", with Michael Preatt? In one of the later series, Robin met a group of paladins who where not that friendly. But they were really good fighters... And for Stalker: There were the Seven Swords of Wayland, too. I�n kind of excited, how you will define "Albian", Robins sword :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? >> I would expect Davania to be sparsely inhabited and probably tilt the balance against Humans (as PWA II lists it as having two million humans and demi-humans and an unknown number of other sentients), << Mild correction here: PWA II lists northern Davania (that is, the area covered by the map included with PWA II) as having 2 million inhabitants. I wouldn't extrapolate that to the entire continent. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:00:16 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: Gnomes (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/00 1:54:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << http://dnd.starflung.com/snart.html >> Thats interesting....... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:58:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin In-Reply-To: <39F2D23E.F9AC9E73@fhwt.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable At 13:40 10/22/00 +0200, Daniel Mayer wrote: >Another question: Did anyone in AD&D, 2nd, multi-class a fighter to a >paladin? In the rules it seems to be allowed, but it would make the >weapon specialisation restriction for paladin kind of useless?! In OD&D >the Paladin was just a fighter with divine blessing. And I don=B4t see the >point in restricting the paladin in his fighting capabilities just >because he has other benefits. In my campaigns, the paladin ist punished >enough by the strict code of his religious order. But he=B4s hell a >fighter :) In 2E, one can't multiclass to another class within a class category. It's perfectly possible in 3E, though. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:09:18 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/00 2:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: << In 2E, one can't multiclass to another class within a class category. It's perfectly possible in 3E, though. >> Whare is this at? I havent seen this either. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:14:45 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > At 13:36 10/22/00 -0300, Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > >Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza > >or Israel people? > > > >(please don't flame me) > > Then don't end your questions with such loaded examples. We do not have any troubles in this country. Even our independence spilled no drop of blood. Thus it is difficult to me to think of an example. Please forgive me, Beau and people. > The shadow elves are taking something else entirely, for motives they > themselves seem to know are vindictive. Their belief seems to be more > "those bastards deserve to suffer," rather than "let us return to the > glorious homeland that we cannot even see during daylight initially!" That's a very important doubt: are they harmed by sunlight? Or they just get blind in order to - slowly - get used to it? Is it a long or short-term phenomenon? If I take 3 hours to get used to it... next day will I be OK? Or they'll take generations to get used to the light? > I like the idea that they're growing up, though, now that they're on the > surface. If the surface elves let them, I wouldn't be surprised if they can > come to a peaceful agreement within the next two decades. When they came up, lal the Alfheim elves fled, splitted to the surrounding kingdoms... no one has stayed there? (alive...) > Of course, that doesn't affect me: My EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL shadow elf NPC in my > Karameikos chronicle -- who is a royal bastard, as those of you who > remember my Fort Boldiszorvic write-up recall -- is kicking around in 1013, > long before any peace deals are done. ... It'd be interesting to see him > exposed and trying to pass off all his nastiness as "I was just doing my > job, though. Exactly! I'm trying to put some of them in Karameikos. Only during night time? What have you done about it? This Karameikan chronicle of yours... I want my Calarii elf player to meet a lovely shaman girl or something. I am interested, Beau. I do agree with SteelAngel about the axis stuff. I'll have to chance my example... well... because of England, Brazil fought tiny Paraguai last century and killed 90% of their male population. Can I blame them for being resentful or even vengeful towards us? Again, forgive me any of you who might have been ofended (even the other 2 or 3 Brazilians I know that wonder around here... well, you just cannot please everybody... hehehe). vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: The Great Valley, The Well of the Moon,The Pachydermions and Khompor-Tap MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > During the course of X5 : The Temple of Death my poor players found >the Well of the Moon and after investigating its unique and miraculous >powers decided to wait until the phase of the moon allowed them to >climb its silver stairs up to the moon. Trying to find some sense to the >well purpose I created a story. I decided the valley was the last refuge >of an ancient race, the Pachydermions, who inspired by an immortal >constructed a relic which allow their passage to a new world avoiding >extinction. The walls of the valley were carved, showing crude statues >of imposing height which reminded me somehow those of the Island >of Pascua and I described them so, remarking their "wide" faces and >"long" noses. After all night climbing stairs they arrived at Patera, the >hidden moon, amidst the ruins of a temple, at the bottom of a well >which resembled the one they left, surrounded by a dense jungle >, they were in Khompor-tap. Sounds cool! My Desert Nomad campaign is currently on hiatus, and they haven't gotten nearly that far yet. But I love that idea! Mind if I borrow it IMC? BTW--I'm pretty sure that the Island of Pascua is, in English, Easter Island (in the Pacific west of Chile, with the big statues all around it) but I'm not sure... is that correct? > * Whatever you can share about Pachydermions. What resources do you have so far? They're described in the AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium and the Creature Catalogues, but I think that's it. IIRC, the AD&D MMC has more details than the CCs. > * Whatever you can share about Myoshima and Khompor-Tap. They were detailed in the VotPA series in Dragon: if you don't yet have the Dragon Magazine archive, I'd highly recommend it :-) > * Who have knowledge of Patera's existence ? Who have visited it > and when ? Who have them contacted on the moon? ( If any ) Well, Prince Haldemar's Princess Ark and all its crew (mostly Alphatian, some randoms) were there a while back. The Heldannic Knights were there. And I think some Bellayners recently rediscovered it, but I'm not sure about that. If you don't have the Dragon article, e-mail me and I'll summarize it for you. Patrick pds3@dana.ucc.nau.edu ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:19:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaham Ilan Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Consider that the Simbasta, Fast Runners and other breeds occupy the > Meghala Kimata and most Savannah areas of Davania, from Vanya's Rest on > the eastern coast to the Addakian region. > They are quite sparse, but they occupy an incredibly large surface. Where is this info taken from? Where did they name tribes of centaurs? > They would have an hard competition from the Rakasta. Also, Centaurs are > best fitted for woodlands, not savannah, IIRC. PC1 said centaurs live in areas where lots of food can be found, namely forests and plains. In fact, it is easyer to find food (meaning meat) in large numbers in grassy plains becuase of the high number of large herbivours. Centraue phisiology makes them superior hunters too rakasta in an open plain lanscape (faster, can shoot or through while runnnig, don't have to use "riding" skill). Rakasta whold have to ride on those feline horses or on sabertooths, who if I am not mistaken are both rare and slower than centaurs. > Remember that dragons can eat almost anything, from sentient beings to > minerals (at least in AD&D). Well, biologically that is a bit silly, but so is living off mushrooms at underground caves. It is a magical setting after all. > > > Orcs 1.500.000 (Incl. Ogres & Trolls) > > > > Why including Ogres and Trolls with orcs? > > Because they are often living with them, and are to few to be considered > alone. > GAZ10 makes them very different culturaly and also groups other kinds of goblinoids together. Morphail ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:53:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jason o'brien wrote: > > Can I ask you what's your favourite character class? > > I always like the elves, their ability of warriors and mages at the same > times makes them my favourite class.. :-) > > > personnally i've always preferred the thief, followed by the mage.i've > always hated clerics,but then i feel that way about them in the real world > too. in real world i also don`t the people of the church, but in fantasy i like it. in most camp i play a priest, because the other roles are easier to fit. so the most people perfer mages and warriors - IMC. - i think i can I My C, the my as camp in that i also play - so i cose often the priest. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:56:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza > or Israel people? > > (please don't flame me) this is a very hot theme shadow elves are in OD&D lawful. in AD&D they are often Lawful Neutral. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:14:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaham Ilan Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Again, forgive me any of you who might have been ofended (even the other > 2 or 3 Brazilians I know that wonder around here... well, you just > cannot > please everybody... hehehe). > vini. > As I told you in a private mail and I sum up for the rest, you cannot find a good example. Simply because there isn't such a thing as good or evil nations, at least not on the real world. You will find a few in Krynn though... Morphail ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:25:34 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Shaham Ilan wrote: > > > Again, forgive me any of you who might have been ofended (even the other > > 2 or 3 Brazilians I know that wonder around here... well, you just > > cannot > > please everybody... hehehe). > > vini. > > > > As I told you in a private mail and I sum up for the rest, you cannot find a > good example. Simply because there isn't such a thing as good or evil > nations, at least not on the real world. You will find a few in Krynn > though... > > Morphail I've read your private mail and I say you are a very polited gentleman. Again, I beg people's pardon. I'll never use a RW example again. The truth is I do not undestand the RW conflict. And I don't understand the Mystara conflict, either. I live in Brazil (you asked where), a country where "Yazids" and "Lewandovskys" are friends, black and white date and japanese marry "gaijin" people and have beautiful children. Some day the whole world will be that way. Ever heard "Ebony and Ivory", by Paul McCartney and Steve Wonder? I pray to it every single day. But let's get back to business, shall we? ;-) Campaign World, now. So you got exactly to the pont I wanted, Mr.! Exactly! Let's see "Elf, Drow", MM: inteligence 14-20 (there's a mistake, there, the Drider and Drow INTs are exchanged), they can belong to any class, they are masters in many techniques... see the Drown Chain Mail. Just marvelous. How can you define them as "CE"??? Only that? So, there is no normal curve - or Gauss curve, if you prefer - about it, just like there would be in many other characteristics such as height, weight etc? I mena... putting such an intelligent, highly-developed race in a common MM entry is weird, wrong, unfair... see the "Human" entry. There is "bandit", "slaver", "merchant", "sailor"... but a Drow is a Drow. The _plain_ drow. Bah! Evere read the "Strang Renaiscance" adventure, which is in Creative Campaigning? Good-aligned, clean, well-dressed... kobolds! Thne I ask - see the thread "Re: [MYSTARA] Are shadow elves evil?" - it... wanting you to tell me "NO". 3 answers in 3 told me something like "things are not so simple". Perfect. I DO believe "there�s good and bad in everyone" - again, the same song above... a coincidence - and not in this or that people. Or race. Saying "Brazilians are good" or "Lawyers are evil" is definitely not the correct approach. Bodycount made... tale of the tape: 1) I agree with all of you. 2) I still do not understand what happened there... Aengmor, Alfheim... (???) It's a good time to tell you that the "Karameikos: KoA" book is very imcomplete and thus it tell me about the existence of a people and/or place. But is difficult to find resources about it. SHAAAAAAAAWN and you have been saving me in times of trouble. I've got the Shadow Elves Gazeteer in TSR Last Call, but it still seems to me that I only know 10% of what I should. so... ????? Sorry for using "the word D" as you say... SHADOW Elves are much nicer! Peace in all parallel dimensions. Please forgive me, again. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:13:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Rakasta (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regard to Rakasta cutting significantly into the Human percentage on Mystara -- not likely. They probably are more numerous than any other non-Human race for the reasons already cited -- but they are far more dispersed and nomadic than Humans are. A Human-dominated region that is considered "sparsely populated" would be positively crowded by Rakasta standards, as Humans tend to be settled farmers while Rakasta prefer large hunting territories. An even split of territory between these two races would still result in a population that is overwhelmingly Human -- and I would be very surprised if there is any continent on which such an even split is actually found. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:13:32 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gnomes (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-22 4:54:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > David Knott wrote: > > > > Has the "Snartan Empire gazetteer" ever been uploaded to a Web site? > > I have seen it mentioned several times on this list but have never come > > across the details in my Web browsing. > > http://dnd.starflung.com/snart.html Ah, thanks! I did a bit more poking around and found some more useful (in terms of quantifiable statistics) information about the Snartan Gnomes. Clearly, if we accept them as existing on Mystara, then the population of the Snartan Empire would be a fairly good estimate of the total Gnome population of Mystara -- the communities of Gnomes documented by TSR would be insignificant in comparison. Throw in the Snartan Empire and Gnomes go from insignificant to being on a par with the other demi-human races. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:50:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > At 13:40 10/22/00 +0200, Daniel Mayer wrote: > > >Another question: Did anyone in AD&D, 2nd, multi-class a fighter to a > >paladin? In the rules it seems to be allowed, but it would make the > >weapon specialisation restriction for paladin kind of useless?! In OD&D > >the Paladin was just a fighter with divine blessing. And I don�t see the > >point in restricting the paladin in his fighting capabilities just > >because he has other benefits. In my campaigns, the paladin ist punished > >enough by the strict code of his religious order. But he�s hell a > >fighter :) > > In 2E, one can't multiclass to another class within a class category. we have taken a house rule (befor Players Options) a ranger and a paladin can chose if he want spells or Weapon spec. it is at the beginnig known, that we will play a lot of time. not a one shot. these is important to know, becaus semi spelluser get there spell on "high" level. 8th and 9th. a thief in your campain (AD&D) has changed the class from thief to a bard. normaly not allowed (both are Rouges), but he do it like a change between 2 classes. e.g. a fighter level 6 becomes a priest. so he has to advances again. but these two are not common rules!! so only we handelt it. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:52:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-22 5:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Boondale@AOL.COM writes: > In a message dated 10/22/00 2:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM > writes: > > << In 2E, one can't multiclass to another class within a class category. It's > perfectly possible in 3E, though. >> > > Whare is this at? I havent seen this either. It happens by default. 2E had class groups and specifically disallowed multi-classing or dual-classing within those groups. 3E has no class groups and thus does not even attempt to restrict multi-classing within those non-existent groups. In fact, the change in the multi-classing mechanics makes such restrictions unnecessary, as a "Fighter 5/ Paladin 3" is a perfectly reasonable 8th level character in 3E. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:54:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Kessel, Laszko van" Subject: Re: Trade advice for Merchant Princes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jenni wrote >> Hey, I have a question -- you mention NACE and Savage Coast so I guess the existing trade advice is aimed at the Post-Wrath Era. Is there any posibility you might do the same for the AC1000 / Pre-Wrath era? << IIRC I got the data from the Net Almanac 1016. I don't know how they got their data, but I guess the PWA must be involved. I can check if the trade goods are completely different from the 1000 AC trade and make an additional script if that is the case, but I don't suspect much change in all these years. Laszko http://www.xs4all.nl/~enee ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:01:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Where is this info taken from? The same article I cited before (Rakasta of Mystara). > Rakasta whold have to ride on those feline > horses or on sabertooths, who if I am not mistaken are both rare and slower > than centaurs. Actually, the Davanian Rakasta don't seem to be riding sabertooths or feliquine. Simbasta hunt like lion prides, and Fast Runners are cheetah-like. -- Giampaolo Agosta ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:43:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Voyage of the Princess Ark In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001017120703.007d4250@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to my oppinion the most interesting part of Haldemar's voyages are the part that in the Heroes of Mystara box are just refered in one page at the beginning. (The parts before he gets zapped forward in time.) I have not been a regular Dragon Mag reader, and as such have not read the original article series. Were these first voyages of Haldemar detailed in the articles? If that is the case, I'll put some effort into getting hold of those Dragon issues. BTW can anyone tell me which issues the Voyage were in? -Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 03:30:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >The information about just what happens to magic immediately after the sinking of Alphatia is indeed self-contradictory. yes >How is this for a way to reconcile the conflicting information? After the destruction of Alphatia, the Nucleus goes into a week-long adjustment phase. For one week mortal magic (but not Immortal magic) cannot be cast, but ongoing spells remain in effect. >The above explanation seems to be compatible with everything we know about the events surrounding the destruction of Alphatia. Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian wizards use their magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. In fact, everything in canon seems to indicate that there was no loss of magic as a consequence of the sinking of Alphatia, be it mortal or Immortal. I don't think that WotI even says anything bad happens to the wizards over Glantri - the now infamous SPLAT itself is, I believe, only inference based on the supposition that magic would have failed. In fact I think the only reference at all to that second loss of magic is that tiny sentence in the adventure wrap-up of WotI, and it is contradicted by everything else. That's why I favor to just forget about it and put no second loss of magic at all, and with that everything else works fine (ie there are no further inconsistencies with such a premise). I think that reference in WotI was just a mistake anyway, maybe a result of what was first imagined for WotI (ie a wwm following the sinking of alphatia rather than the destruction of sundvsall) but later changed except for that note that wasn't excised. My opinion. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:18:20 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > BTW can anyone tell me which issues the Voyage were in? Have a look at: http://dnd.starflung.com/dragon.html -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:39:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >BTW can anyone tell me which issues the Voyage were in? > Beginning in issue 153, and with a break in issue 159, the voyage ended in issue 188 after 35 episodes. The Known World Grimoire, a collection of Q&A and ideas by Bruce, then ran until issue 200. Check out issue 206 for details of Halag, and 207 for Krakatos too. Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:17:18 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] Are shadow elves evil? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Sun, 22 October 2000, "Vinicius R. de Moraes" has wrote: > > Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza > or Israel people? > > (please don't flame me) > > vini. Like in all other races there are evil Shadow elves and less evil Shadow elves. In fact, Princess Tanadaleyo wants the peace between White elves and Shadow elves...... The real evil is Atzanteotl (have I wrote it in the right way?)... AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:13:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Herve Musseau wrote: > In fact, everything in canon seems to indicate that there was no loss = of magic > as a consequence of the sinking of Alphatia, be it mortal or Immortal. = I don't > think that WotI even says anything bad happens to the wizards over = Glantri - > the now infamous SPLAT itself is, I believe, only inference based on = the > supposition that magic would have failed. But then how did Glantri survive the bombardment by the Alphatian = wizards? Wouldn't all that was left be a smoking crater? Or are = Glantrian wizards and soldiers so efficient that they actually managed = to make the Alphatians (several 36th level ones) flee home just in time = to still be struck by the Doomsday Weapon? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:17:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mzilikazi wrote: > According to my oppinion the most interesting part of Haldemar's = voyages are > the part that in the Heroes of Mystara box are just refered in one = page at > the beginning. (The parts before he gets zapped forward in time.) > I have not been a regular Dragon Mag reader, and as such have not read = the > original article series. Were these first voyages of Haldemar detailed = in > the articles? If that is the case, I'll put some effort into getting = hold of > those Dragon issues. BTW can anyone tell me which issues the Voyage = were in? I think that almost every VotPA article was great. If all you've got is = CoM you'll get a lot more by reading the Dragon articles. Both = story-wise (you're right, the first part is detailed in the original = VotPA articles), but also in terms of background material, since much of = it was omitted from CoM if I'm not mistaken. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:10:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When one takes public order problems into consideration, I would think that the first thought of most "mundane" glantrians would be something like this: "Hey, the prince's tower is suddenly completely undefended, and the city guard seems to be busy killing these weird-dressed people that are raining from the sky. Hm.... do I want to go killing these unknown dudes, or do I want to loot the Prince's vast treasure chamber...." I believe most would let their greed get in the way of their bloodthirst, thus creating a major chaos, in which a 36th level character (probably a master/grand master of staff/dagger)with 17+ intelligence and X (replace with any large number) years of adventuring experience should have a good chance of slipping away. Especially if they started to team up after a while. Therefore I believe that a lot of those not killed by the initial fall survived. An interesting thought: What would happen to the Alphatian-hunting posses when magic returned after a week, and they suddenly faced the full blast power of a 36th level magic user....... i suppose most would find the time to blast the guys who had been hunting him for a week before teleporting home, a place that would now have sunk, resulting in him falling into the ocean, paddling around for a while until he teleported on to a drier place. - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:28:53 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: What is your favorite Mystara setting Module and why? (History) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed B10 Night's Dark Terror agreed with Agathokles: it has EVERYTHING for the perfect adventure: the Goblins are REAL there, not just "Throw enough d20 and give them a short cut" - it's very detailed. I loved it and used extensively also in following adventures: it has become a living part of my Karameikos gazeteer. Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:41:36 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaham Ilan Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, the Davanian Rakasta don't seem to be riding sabertooths or feliquine. Simbasta hunt like lion prides, and Fast Runners are cheetah-like. -- Giampaolo Agosta ******************************************************************** OK, than the Simbasta will have a real hard time hunting unless they are actually as fast as cheetas, which I find impossible if they run on two legs. Anyway I was referring to the efficiency of a Rakasta running with a spear and a Centaur running with a spear. Centaurs will certainly be a better hunter of zebras for example or even larger pray. The Rakasta would have to use ambush and suffisticated weapons to do better than a centaur. Maybe the Sambasta way will do, but how do the Fast Runners ever plan on catching anything? Morphail ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:59:11 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > Il Sun, 22 October 2000, "Vinicius R. de Moraes" has wrote: > > > > > Or they just have re-taken what was theirs? Something like... uh... Gaza > > or Israel people? > > > > (please don't flame me) > > > > vini. > Like in all other races there are evil Shadow elves and less evil Shadow elves. In fact, Princess Tanadaleyo wants the peace between White elves and Shadow elves...... The real evil is Atzanteotl (have I wrote it in the right way?)... What about the "other way"? Does the WE want peace... or just kick their Shadow cousins and return home? Where are the White Elves? All of the spread up? Are there prisoners? Slaves? Thanks, Leonardo and people. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:48:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: WWM In-Reply-To: <20001022172515.21924.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Herve Musseau wrote: > A DoD has never occured before. Kaldmont 28 was a day of strange sightings in > the sky and such - but not days of dread. Untrue! I know I have read somewhere that, though an official day of dread hasn't ever happened, there have been days when magic has spontaneously failed. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Gnomes (was How many Mystarans exist?) In-Reply-To: <39F35E22.AA263193@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David Knott wrote: > > Has the "Snartan Empire gazetteer" ever been uploaded to a Web site? > I have seen it mentioned several times on this list but have never come > across the details in my Web browsing. Not as such - I'm still re-writing it. Bruce's basic idea is up on Stan's page, but my extrapolation is still in the works. DArn you Grad School! Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Favourite class In-Reply-To: <00c001c03c41$391b38c0$4bdb869f@pbncomputer> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > always hated clerics,but then i feel that way about them in the real world > too. For me, the situation is reversed. Clerics have always been my favorite class, and they're the only RW equivalent I have any appreciation for. Compared with self-righteous snobs, blood-thirsty killers and dirty thieves, men and women of morality hold a high place in my estimation. Heck, even in terms of prime requisite they win out - wisdom is a far greater quality than strength or dexterity in the real world. It's nice to see a class devoted to a higher calling rather than greedy self-interest. - Mischa In the minds of many, we have made Faust's bargain: Man is swapping his soul for a summer cottage and a second car. - Carl Kaufmann ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:40:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: Favourite class In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the case of Mystara and OD&D, my favourite class has to be the Mystic. This is in terms of "coolness" rather than game balancing or personal morality preferences. When it comes to having fun, what could be more fun than playing a kick-ass martial artist chattering on about being one with the universe, and practicing a weird form of morality, generally trying to be as big an enigma to the other players and the GM as possible. Not to mention the nuts-driving potential of the Mystic NPC! :-) Of course when it comes to munchkinism, I of course prefer the elf at low levels, and the Magic-User at levels above the elf max., but only because those are wildly imbalanced, and give far greater advantages than disadvantages. -Count Mzilikazi > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Mystara [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]P� vegne av Mischa E > Gelman > Sendt: 23. oktober 2000 15:58 > Til: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Emne: Re: [MYSTARA] Favourite class > > > > always hated clerics,but then i feel that way about them in the > real world > > too. > > For me, the situation is reversed. Clerics have always been my favorite > class, and they're the only RW equivalent I have any appreciation for. > Compared with self-righteous snobs, blood-thirsty killers and dirty > thieves, men and women of morality hold a high place in my estimation. > Heck, even in terms of prime requisite they win out - wisdom is a far > greater quality than strength or dexterity in the real world. It's nice to > see a class devoted to a higher calling rather than greedy self-interest. > > - Mischa > > In the minds of many, we have made Faust's bargain: Man is swapping his > soul for a summer cottage and a second car. - Carl Kaufmann > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:04:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] Are shadow elves evil? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Mon, 23 October 2000, "Vinicius R. de Moraes" ha scritto: > What about the "other way"? Does the WE want peace... or just kick their > Shadow cousins and return home? > > Where are the White Elves? All of the spread up? Are there prisoners? > Slaves? > > Thanks, Leonardo and people. > vini. After their escape from Canolbarth some WE went to north, to Wendar while other went in Karameikos with the Callari.. Also inside the WE there are people who don't want peace (we see reading the almanac). But I think that they manage to obtain peace (maybe...) AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:10:05 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Re: WWM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Herv� Musseau wrote: Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian wizards use their magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. In fact, everything in canon seems to indicate that there was no loss of magic as a consequence of the sinking of Alphatia, be it mortal or Immortal. I don't think that WotI even says anything bad happens to the wizards over Glantri - the now infamous SPLAT itself is, I believe, only inference based on the supposition that magic would have failed. In fact I think the only reference at all to that second loss of magic is that tiny sentence in the adventure wrap-up of WotI, and it is contradicted by everything else. That's why I favor to just forget about it and put no second loss of magic at all, and with that everything else works fine (ie there are no further inconsistencies with such a premise). I think that reference in WotI was just a mistake anyway, maybe a result of what was first imagined for WotI (ie a wwm following the sinking of alphatia rather than the destruction of sundvsall) but later changed except for that note that wasn't excised. My opinion. ************************** I would love to agree with Herv�: basically I too believe that the 2nd WWM is a "bug" to be somehow fixed, given how many contradictions it involves in WotI. Said this, we need to sort out what did happen after the Doomsday Weapon activates for the second time: something must have happened to the Thousand (or 400 or whatever...) Wizards, otherwise thay would have REALLY damaged Glantri City. Which was not. So, either we decide that Glanti City WAS indeed nearly destroyed and that it was later rebuilt/repaired, or for some reason indeed magic HAS failed, and the Thousand Wizards could not perform their deeds. In the first case, if you like to have them drowned, just allow them to end their bombing and then... teleport home :) In the 2nd case, you've got the *SPLAT* but you still have to find a suitable way to explain the loss of magic's quite blatant contradictions: I suggest that magic is lost only temporarily (a few seconds are enough): so the *SPLAT* happens, and the few surviving Alphatians have a VEEERY good reason to teleport home as soon as they can, and stop their attack mission. At the same time, Alphatia starts sinking but magic has already returned, which explains all the apparent contradictions. What do you think? Can we admit not a 2nd WWM but a Full Round (10 seconds) Without Magic? Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 05:33:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >I think that almost every VotPA article was great. If all you've got is CoM you'll get a lot more by reading the Dragon articles. Both story-wise (you're right, the first part is detailed in the original VotPA articles), but also in terms of background material, since much of it was omitted from CoM if I'm not mistaken. > While I haven't yet had time to read through the entirety of the series (I got the archive a few months ago, but life has intervened to prevent my doing much), I would definitely agree. CoM summarizes some of the background material or presents it rather differently, but, except for Sind, The Great Waste, Yavdlom, and Ulimwengu, the VotPA and KWG go into much more detail. I'd highly recommend the Dragon CD Archive, since it includes so many back issues at such a reasonable price. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards Some of these latest rationales are pretty desperate and show the lengths to which people will go. . .anyhow, for those of you engaging in the wierder and more bizzare rationalizations (some of which I'll deal with below), you really should give Herve's scenario a second look, because that one makes a lot of sense (while these other ones are just desperate). "They wouldn't fly" - This one, of course, effectively acts as if the Wizards know magic would fail. Yes, they'd have to Teleport to the ground (surface), but then it makes much more sense to fly than it does to wander around on the ground. By flying, with Protection From Normal Missiles and Globe of Invulnerability (Immunity in D&D), Mind Bar and other defensive spells in effect, they're immune to well over 90% of possible attacks, can't be engaged in melee (the bane of any Wizard, even a high level one, who doesn't have fighter support, as these guys wouldn't during the bombardment), can't be hit by falling rubble from their own attacks or accidentally fratricided by their commrads who, if they were on the ground, might not be able to see them if there was a building in the way. Saying "they won't be flying" is just an expedient to avoid the falling damage when magic fails, and a rather obvious one at that. "Houshold magic fails so the Glantrians have to turn to comforting distraught housefraus since the pilot light in their magic oven went out", and other rather attempts to claim that the Glantrians would ignore the guys who bombarded their city. . .lets deal with this one, which is the best of these types of excuses: >> When one takes public order problems into consideration, I would think thatthe first thought of most "mundane" glantrians would be something like this: "Hey, the prince's tower is suddenly completely undefended, and the city guard seems to be busy killing these weird-dressed people that are raining from the sky. Hm.... do I want to go killing these unknown dudes, or do I want to loot the Prince's vast treasure chamber...." << Actually, it's pretty obvious what they'd think: "Hmmmn. . . the Prince's tower still has several guards around and in it, as well as unknown traps and defenses. Plus, those bastards just bombarded my home and killed my favorite dog. I think I'll help kill *them*, then take whatever they have on them and pawn it. The bastards deserve it." A lot of these sorts of rationalizations have the effect of believing that the Glantrians would feel no emotion over the fact that these Alphatians just showed up and tried to KILL them all. Now, really - if I sent guys to your PC's home with the intention of blasting it apart and ransacking it, and then all the sudden the guys I sent, who were in the process of doing that, were somehow incapacitated, what would *your* first thought be? "I know, I'll go to my neighbor's house and loot it" or "Those f**king bastards thought they were going to kill *ME* eh? They thought they'd destroy *MY* home! I'll show them!" After all, the Prince's guards &tc still have their swords and bows, and the Prince is on *YOUR* side against these invaders & attackers. (Oh, I can here it now, too "didn't you just say the Prince's Guards would be hunting the Glantrians?" No, I didn't - the Glantrian Princes don't have to strip their own homes defenseless in order to have plenty of guys to send after t! ! he Alphatians. They can leave behind a show of strength, and still send their missile armed troops, plus their main military forces, after the Alphatians. They have plenty of dudes available). Few self respecting persons would say to themselves "oh, them, the guys who just attacked us? Lets forget about them. Or, better yet, lets invite them in for a nice cup of tea. I have nothing against those guys, live and let live I say. Perhaps they'll help me loot my neighbor's house, my neighbor being the guy who just helped me fight against these guys a few moments ago." I mean, puh-leeze. . . >> What would happen to the Alphatian-hunting posses when magic returned after a week, and they suddenly faced the full blast power of a 36th level magic user.......<< Well, if they were in range of the 36th level magic user, they would have already filled him full of arrows and crossbow bolts. Most of those who would have survived would have done so by hiding and being unseen - being nowhere *near* the hunting parties during the week. >> before teleporting home, a place that would now have sunk, resulting in him falling into the ocean, << Actually, they wouldn't fall into the ocean: they would be under it already (difficult to breath and thus cast spells). Why? Because they'd be Teleporting to their tower, home, whatever - which just happens to be located under a couple hundred feet of water, so thats where they are. Very difficult to cast spells while your mouth is full of water. "What about contingency?" What about it? That's probably what they used to trigger the Teleport spell to get home in the first place. No, these excuses are all amusing, but for a real, solid, believable theory as to what might have happened, Herve's scenario is by far the best. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:42:50 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: WWM >> But then how did Glantri survive the bombardment by the Alphatian wizards? Wouldn't all that was left be a smoking crater? Or are Glantrian wizards and soldiers so efficient that they actually managed to make the Alphatians (several 36th level ones) flee home just in time to still be struck by the Doomsday Weapon? << Well, in Herve's scenario what happens is that, since magic works, they get warnings from home (Aunt Bea sends a Sending message or something telling them that the place is falling apart around her, quick come save the place! - those first messages probably speak of earthquakes and the like, not "the continent is sinking", since they would be a lot of individual, local reports of "what's happening in Wizard X's home town") - they would then return home to try and help rectify the situation/put it right, thus leaving off the bombardment for the moment (after all, in their mind at the time, Glantri will still be there to bombard tommorrow, it isn't going anywhere - and they *DON'T* know at the time that Alphatia *is* going somewhere). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:48:08 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] Are shadow elves evil? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > Il Mon, 23 October 2000, "Vinicius R. de Moraes" ha scritto: > > > What about the "other way"? Does the WE want peace... or just kick their > > Shadow cousins and return home? > > > > Where are the White Elves? All of the spread up? Are there prisoners? > > Slaves? > > > > Thanks, Leonardo and people. > > vini. > After their escape from Canolbarth some WE went to north, to Wendar while other went in Karameikos with the Callari.. Ciao, Leonardo! Karameikos, huh? That reminds me of "someone" around here (hey, man, tell me about your shadow elf experience in Karameikos!) who is doing something like I am: putting SE in K. I'd like them to - try to - avoid Calarii elves and the refugees... but, of course, they would meet. What would their business be in K? Normal trade? Slavery? A adventuring party? Spies? How do you think se refugees would act? What avout the Calarii? What do they know about the SE? I'm planing very carefully this encounter - that's the main reason for this thread -, it's a surprise for my Calarii Bladesinger player. > Also inside the WE there are people who don't want peace (we see reading the almanac). But I think that they manage to obtain peace (maybe...) Oh... that's great: yes, even in Campaign Worlds - that's what I meant by "CW", for you who asked - I hope there's always peace, when I'm a player. And I guarantee it as a DM. Oh, the Power... :-) Cheers. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:23:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: (Beyond the Gazateers) new: Paladin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Say, does anyone know the TV-series "Robin Hood", with Michael Preatt? > In one of the later series, Robin met a group of paladins who where not > that friendly. But they were really good fighters... if memory serves correctly these were knights templar. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Karameikos 1013: Lighting a fire (in more ways than one) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, this weekend saw, at long last, the conclusion of the set-up for the bulk of my Karameikos campaign (not that all of the players have realized the importance of what's happened). Some of you with long memories may remember that the PCs, four newly Sheared villagers from Midwood headed to haunted Fort Boldizsarovic in the wake of A) the Wizard of Midwood, Nicodemus Majoh dying of old age in his sleep and B) an adventurer stumbling into the Shady Dragon Inn, looking for said wizard, so that he could keep a certain magical sword out of the hands of orc bandits who were hot to retrieve it after she stole it from them. Nicodemus' apprentice and his friends, naturally, set off to grab the sword before sundown, when the humanoids would become more active. Arriving at the fort, they discovered goblins and wolves camping out in and around it. They penetrated the fort and discovered that the goblins had indeed found the sword, although they had, in turn, lost it to the wyrd who haunts the fort ... and she had apparently been sealed behind a door bearing Nicodemus' mark, and mistook Nicodemus' apprentice for the wizard himself. In the course of the fight with her -- made much more difficult, as you might expect, by the lack of silver or magical weapons, other than the sword the adventurers were there to retrieve -- the group's ranger made a break for it and fled to the surface ... only to run into the orcs they had originally been trying to beat to the sword. After roughing him up and finding out what was going on below the surface, they sent him back down to retrieve the sword for them. The four adventurers (barely) defeated the wyrd, which is where things were left last time ... Someone once said that knowing you'll be executed the next day concentrates your thoughts wonderfully, and you should have seen the four of them tear through the dungeon after that, looking for an exit. Of course, when stumbling across a library, they still had the presence of mind to grab two or three books at random each for their backpacks. But soon after, they heard sounds that indicated the orcs were tired of waiting. As they only goblins they'd found for some time were smoldering and dead (killed by the wyrd), the party's axe-loving fighter came up with a plan: Set the library on fire. This, of course, horrified the party's wizard and cleric, until it was explained that living is better than dying. So the four of them set a fire and then headed up the corridor to hide in another room, and wait for the orcs to see what was going on with the fire. The orcs did, and the heroes made a run for it, all until the heavily armored fighter whose idea it originally was -- and who now had the sword, Reaver, in his hand -- clanked after his fellows. The orcs heard him, and the chase was on. They eluded the sentries outside, who had chosen the wrong moment to relieve themselves, and pouring oil on the staircase behind them, gave themselves enough time to race through the woods, eventually circling around towards Midwood ... where the orcs were waiting for them in the gloom. The group's leader, the bandit chief whom the sword belonged to, parleyed with them, explaining that the orcs had been peeking in windows in Midwood, and there was no sign of the wizard or the town's head cleric, and that the orcs would easily be able to slaughter everyone else in town, unless they got the sword NOW. The party prepared for almost certain slaughter at the hands of the orcs, as they intended to go down fighting, when there was a magical flash of light and the town's resident (sky)gnome, Gus, leapt into the fray, delaying the orcs while yelling for the party to make a run for it. Several hours later, tired and sore, the party left the Radlebb Woods for the first time in their lives, looking down the hill through the predawn gray at Mirros, capital city of Karameikos. And that ends the first act of the campaign ... Of course, one of the books they picked up was the alchemy recipe book/journal of Anya Boldizsarovic, which mentions a certain "Callarii" elf who had the bright idea of turning one of Anya's ladies-in-waiting into a killing machine to use against the Thyatian invaders a century ago. That elf's name pops up again inside a book the party's wizard doesn't even know he has, as it's inside a box that belonged to his mentor that's sealed with an arcane lock variant and won't open until he's third level. That book mentions a certain elf coming to Nicodemus and his friends three decades ago with an idea of how to summon up a being that could defeat the Black Eagle. That elf, Rastaban, will soon learn that someone has pentrated Fort Boldizsarovic, and once he learns whose apprentice it was, he'll be following the party to Mirros to find out what they know, and to keep them from blowing his cover amongst the surface elves ... And then there's the matter of two competing groups trying to get Reaver back. The goblins, agents of the Black Eagle himself, will be replaced by a lone hunter, and the orc bandits won't give up, either. And all the things the characters' parents never told them about the outside world will come crashing down on them, too, including an encounter with an Iron Ring assassin scorned and someone's grandfather, who has a gift he wants to pass on to his grandson, whether he wants it or not. And then there's their meeting with Bargle the Infamous ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:45:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For me, the situation is reversed. Clerics have always been my favorite > class, and they're the only RW equivalent I have any appreciation for. > Compared with self-righteous snobs, blood-thirsty killers and dirty > thieves, men and women of morality hold a high place in my estimation. > Heck, even in terms of prime requisite they win out - wisdom is a far > greater quality than strength or dexterity in the real world. It's nice to > see a class devoted to a higher calling rather than greedy self-interest. > except that organised religions are usually very wealthy organizations, and contain,and conceal members of very low moral fibre,tend to gain converts in new lands through the use of torture and slaughter of "heretics",suppress advancement of knowledge that doesn't suit their doctrine, and very reluctantly change their ways when found out,they also tend to deny everything until well after everybody else has accepted it. so much for morals, wisdom , and a higher calling than greedy self interests. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:13:41 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Open Call for New d20 Spells and Magic Items MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I copied the following off of Eric Noah's 3E Site as I'm sure there are probably several MML'ers who could be interested in following it up: "Sword and Sorcery Open Call for Writers: Have a neat magic item or spell you've developed for 3E? Sword and Sorcery Studios wants your work for an upcoming D20 System product, and they're even willing to pay. Click here for instructions on how to submit your work. Deadline is October 31. (thanks to Jim Morris for the scoop)" The instructions for submission are pretty straight forward -- I've even giving the idea some consideration myself. :-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:57:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: How many Mystarans exist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaham Ilan wrote: > > OK, than the Simbasta will have a real hard time hunting unless they are > actually as fast as cheetas, which I find impossible if they run on two > legs. > Anyway I was referring to the efficiency of a Rakasta running with a spear > and a Centaur running with a spear. Centaurs will certainly be a better > hunter of zebras for example or even larger pray. The Rakasta would have to > use ambush and suffisticated weapons to do better than a centaur. Rakasta actually have a fairly sophisticated society, as represented by the wide range of classes available. The Fast Runners are able to run at a "jogging" rate of 45 (against the human norm of 24), and are able to sprint at 90 (against a human maximum of 60, IIRC), due to their energy burst. A centaur goes at a normal speed of 18, with a maximum sprint of 90 as well. The Centaur has a higher base speed, but the Fast Runner compenate with his energy burst. > Maybe the > Sambasta way will do, but how do the Fast Runners ever plan on catching > anything? As to the Simbasta, they are more "planners". BTW, re-reading the Simbasta description, I notice that they have special subdual damage bonus... which could make them good herders, should they perform poorly as pure hunters. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:33:54 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When one takes public order problems into consideration, I would think that > the first thought of most "mundane" glantrians would be something like this: > "Hey, the prince's tower is suddenly completely undefended, and the city > guard seems to be busy killing these weird-dressed people that are raining > from the sky. Hm.... do I want to go killing these unknown dudes, or do I > want to loot the Prince's vast treasure chamber...." I believe most would > let their greed get in the way of their bloodthirst. putting it this way makes me wonder what the thevies guilds get up to. Oh to be a theif during a week without magic..... This also makes me think that the repercussions could be great given the looting of vast ammounts of valubles from wizards in the first short while. In Glantri the first week without magic could be interesting role playing as when the wizards first realize there is no magic they run out and hire non-magical guardsmen with some of that money they have tucked away and probably keep them on after the initial crisis. This being such that when word does get around about the lack of magic the vaults and such are not actually poorly defended. Still a bunch of high level theives could do a lot of damage. Chris. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:44:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Fate of the Thousand Wizards In-Reply-To: <003901c03cd4$c775e6e0$b0f3cb83@quaycomputers> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:33 10/23/2000 +1300, Chris Furneaux wrote: >putting it this way makes me wonder what the thevies guilds get up to. Oh to >be a theif during a week without magic..... > >This also makes me think that the repercussions could be great given the >looting of vast ammounts of valubles from wizards in the first short while. > >In Glantri the first week without magic could be interesting role playing as >when the wizards first realize there is no magic they run out and hire >non-magical guardsmen with some of that money they have tucked away and >probably keep them on after the initial crisis. This being such that when >word does get around about the lack of magic the vaults and such are not >actually poorly defended. > >Still a bunch of high level theives could do a lot of damage. True, but imagine being an assassin during the WWM. Suddenly, your services are in high, high demand, as rich wizards decide it's time to settle some old scores against now-vulnerable enemies ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:50:29 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Tzimisce Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >doing much), I would definitely agree. CoM summarizes some of the >background material or presents it rather differently, but, except for Sind, >The Great Waste, Yavdlom, and Ulimwengu, the VotPA and KWG go into much more >detail. I'd highly recommend the Dragon CD Archive, since it includes so >many back issues at such a reasonable price. Hi, What is KWG? Thanks in advance, Tzimisce ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 02:39:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:32:16 Evil Genius wrote: > >"They wouldn't fly" - This one, of course, effectively acts as if the Wizards know magic would fail. Yes, they'd have to Teleport to the ground (surface), but then it makes much more sense to fly than it does to wander around on the ground. By flying, with Protection From Normal Missiles and Globe of Invulnerability (Immunity in D&D), Mind Bar and other defensive spells in effect, > Though the Globe of Invulnerability is an immobile effect, isn't it? Couldn't move around then, but it doesn't matter in any case. > they're immune to well over 90% of possible attacks, can't be engaged in melee (the bane of any Wizard, even a high level one, who doesn't have fighter support, as these guys wouldn't during the bombardment), > Depends on the game. In OD&D a 36th-level wizard certainly stood a fair chance against a dozen or so peasants or common soldiers. In AD&D 2e his chances would be much worse, but he'd still have a good chance. In 3e he might as well just turn and run as fast as he could, because he'd be dead! If the number of opponents were a score or more, then his odds would indeed be grim, though, even in 2e. > can't be hit by falling rubble from their own attacks or accidentally fratricided by their commrads who, if they were on the ground, might not be able to see them if there was a building in the way. Saying "they won't be flying" is just an expedient to avoid the falling damage when magic fails, and a rather obvious one at that. > Well, I believe Herve made that suggestion as a part of an explanation why central Glantri City wasn't a smoldering ruin after WOTI, so if you dismiss that (I actually found it a little peculiar myself), then we still need to explain why they didn't destroy large parts of the city (which we know they didn't). >"Houshold magic fails so the Glantrians have to turn to comforting distraught housefraus since the pilot light in their magic oven went out", and other rather attempts to claim that the Glantrians would ignore the guys who bombarded their city. . .lets deal with this one, which is the best of these types of excuses: > Lack of magic would indeed hit Glantrians just as hard as the Alphatians. There would doubtlessly be much confusion as a consequence. And while I agree that saying 'the Alphatians wouldn't fly' is suspiciously pro-Alphatian (or anti-Glantrian), I think saying 'the loss of magic wouldn't cause confusion among the Glantrians' is just as pro-Glantrian (or anti-Alphatian, as the case may be), as in both cases, it seems rather convenient to me. If there is one nation in the world, apart from Alphatia, where the loss of magic would cause problems, then it's clearly Glantri. >>> When one takes public order problems into consideration, I would think thatthe first thought of most "mundane" glantrians would be something like this: >"Hey, the prince's tower is suddenly completely undefended, and the city guard seems to be busy killing these weird-dressed people that are raining from the sky. Hm.... do I want to go killing these unknown dudes, or do I want to loot the Prince's vast treasure chamber...." << > >Actually, it's pretty obvious what they'd think: > >"Hmmmn. . . the Prince's tower still has several guards around and in it, as well as unknown traps and defenses. Plus, those bastards just bombarded my home and killed my favorite dog. I think I'll help kill *them*, then take whatever they have on them and pawn it. The bastards deserve it." > >A lot of these sorts of rationalizations have the effect of believing that the Glantrians would feel no emotion over the fact that these Alphatians just showed up and tried to KILL them all. Now, really - if I sent guys to your PC's home with the intention of blasting it apart and ransacking it, and then all the sudden the guys I sent, who were in the process of doing that, were somehow incapacitated, what would *your* first thought be? "I know, I'll go to my neighbor's house and loot it" or "Those f**king bastards thought they were going to kill *ME* eh? They thought they'd destroy *MY* home! I'll show them!" After all, the Prince's guards &tc still have their swords and bows, and the Prince is on *YOUR* side against these invaders & attackers. (Oh, I can here it now, too "didn't you just say the Prince's Guards would be hunting the Glantrians?" No, I didn't - the Glantrian Princes don't have to strip their own homes defenseless in order to have plenty of guys to send after the Alphatians. They can leave behind a show of strength, and still send their missile armed troops, plus their main military forces, after the Alphatians. They have plenty of dudes available). > >Few self respecting persons would say to themselves "oh, them, the guys who just attacked us? Lets forget about them. Or, better yet, lets invite them in for a nice cup of tea. I have nothing against those guys, live and let live I say. Perhaps they'll help me loot my neighbor's house, my neighbor being the guy who just helped me fight against these guys a few moments ago." I mean, puh-leeze. . . > Harsh comments, but yes... Still, I do believe you're forgetting about all those secretive organizations within Glantri (ELF? FAIRIE? Certainly the Followers of the Claymore would take advantage of the situation). Similarly, it is just as likely that the guards would leave their posts to kill Alphatians themselves, and doublessly some people would try to take advantage of the situation once they realize what's going on. >>> What would happen to the Alphatian-hunting posses when magic returned after a week, and they suddenly faced the full blast >power of a 36th level magic user.......<< > >Well, if they were in range of the 36th level magic user, they would have already filled him full of arrows and crossbow bolts. Most of those who would have survived would have done so by hiding and being unseen - being nowhere *near* the hunting parties during the week. > Agreed. >>> before teleporting home, a place that would now have sunk, resulting in him falling into the ocean, << > >Actually, they wouldn't fall into the ocean: they would be under it already (difficult to breath and thus cast spells). Why? Because they'd be Teleporting to their tower, home, whatever - which just happens to be located under a couple hundred feet of water, so thats where they are. Very difficult to cast spells while your mouth is full of water. "What about contingency?" What about it? That's probably what they used to trigger the Teleport spell to get home in the first place. > Actually it is quite possible to cast a number of spells under water, though there are indeed many that are totally useless there (fireballs just produce large amounts of bubbles, and casting lightning bolts is ill adviced for obvious reasons), at least according to the Complete Wizard's Handbook. Could still put those wizards in a lot of trouble however, because they'd be deep in the ocean and it would be rather strange for them to conviently have Breathe Water memorized... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:13:37 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >What is KWG? KWG is the Known World Grimoire, mentioned by Paul in a previous response, which ran in Dragon Magazine from the end of the VotPA series until issue #200. It covered various subjects pertaining to Mystara, at least some of which were rehashed in the on-line "Orc's Head" accessory. I haven't read all through them, but one that springs to mind is a description of the orc tribes of the Dark Jungle, presented as research compiled by Raman (I think it was Raman) when the Princess Arc was in the area. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark In-Reply-To: <200010240015.TAA07832@mail.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > What is KWG? Known World's Grimoire (sp?) Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 03:10:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: WWM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:10:05 Federico Kaftal wrote: >Hervi Musseau wrote: > >Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian >wizards use their >magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. > It doesn't say that exactly (splitting hairs now!). WotI just says: "Zandor remains untouched in his father's undersea kingdom..." PWA1 says that he "survived the sinking of Alphatia, casting a teleport to get to safety. Soon afterwards, he found his way to Aquas", I admit that it's a little convenient that the emperor just happened to be in the one place where he was safe, but it doesn't actually say that he teleported there after Alphatia began to sink. It's rather disappointing plotwise, though - they could at least have added an explanantion for Zandor to go there, like his father not wanting to support his attack on Glantri and Zandor going there to put him in his place or something, but it just doesn't :( The affair with Zyndryl (Zandor's father) *is* quite odd, however, as it clearly says that he cast Wish, Force Field, and Stoneform to save Aquas from the earthquakes that Alphatia's sinking caused (PWA1, p.15) >In fact, everything in canon seems to indicate that there was no >loss of magic >as a consequence of the sinking of Alphatia, be it mortal or >Immortal. WotI establishes a second WWM. I do find it odd that magic wouldn't fail the second time the Doomsday Weapon was used. Having a DoD would be better, and would at least establish that regular event. > I don't >think that WotI even says anything bad happens to the wizards >over Glantri - Nope, it just says, "The next day, the "Thousand Wizards" Teleport to the skies over Glantri City and begin to bombard the city with fire, lightning, and death" (indidentally, note that they teleport to the skies!) That's all! There is no mention of them in canon ever again. (Or else, please point it out someone) >the now infamous SPLAT itself is, I believe, only inference >based on the >supposition that magic would have failed. It is, though it's a fairly reasonable conclusion. > In fact I think the >only reference at >all to that second loss of magic is that tiny sentence in the >adventure wrap-up >of WotI, and it is contradicted by everything else. I wouldn't call it a tiny sentence, but it is the only source of the second WWM (WOTI, book 2, p.70 if anybody needs to see it). >That's why I >favor to just >forget about it and put no second loss of magic at all, and with >that >everything else works fine (ie there are no further >inconsistencies with such a >premise). I think that reference in WotI was just a mistake >anyway, maybe a >result of what was first imagined for WotI (ie a wwm following >the sinking of >alphatia rather than the destruction of sundvsall) but later >changed except for >that note that wasn't excised. My opinion. > IMHO we should at least have a DoD. >************************** > >I would love to agree with Hervi: basically I too believe that the 2nd WWM >is a "bug" to be somehow fixed, given how many contradictions it involves in >WotI. > >Said this, we need to sort out what did happen after the Doomsday Weapon >activates for the second time: something must have happened to the Thousand >(or 400 or whatever...) Wizards, otherwise thay would have REALLY damaged >Glantri City. Which was not. So, either we decide that Glanti City WAS >indeed nearly destroyed and that it was later rebuilt/repaired, or for some >reason indeed magic HAS failed, and the Thousand Wizards could not perform >their deeds. > >In the first case, if you like to have them drowned, just allow them to end >their bombing and then... teleport home :) > I don't think that works so well - Rad/Etienne activates the Doomsday Weapon to save Glantri City, so if they'd already gone home, there would be no need to do so. >In the 2nd case, you've got the *SPLAT* but you still have to find a >suitable way to explain the loss of magic's quite blatant contradictions: I >suggest that magic is lost only temporarily (a few seconds are enough): so >the *SPLAT* happens, and the few surviving Alphatians have a VEEERY good >reason to teleport home as soon as they can, and stop their attack mission. >At the same time, Alphatia starts sinking but magic has already returned, >which explains all the apparent contradictions. > >What do you think? Can we admit not a 2nd WWM but a Full Round (10 seconds) >Without Magic? > How about a compromise? We'll have a DoD, but because it starts in the middle of all this confusion, it has some weird effects on magic - magic *begins* to fail, but some spells do work (Zyndryl gets to save Aquas, Zandor gets to teleport away), but within a time limit of ten minutes to an hour, all magic has failed and will not work until an entire day has passed. That way we could also have wizard who teleported to other dimensions, or who were even displaced in time! I have ulterior motives here, of course - I *don't* want all those "Thousand Wizards" (however many were left) to survive! I'd like no more than 10% to survive... They were so boring, even in DotE, that Allston never bothered to describe them at all, which makes it pretty clear that they're quite boring IMHO. The only one of them we even know of is Tylion/Terari! - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 03:13:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Voyage of the Princess Ark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:50:29 Tzimisce wrote: > >What is KWG? > > KWG = Known World Grimoire. This was a column in Dragon which Bruce Heard wrote about Mystara (especially the Savage Coast area) after the VotPA series ended. Can't remember when that one ended, but I think it was just around #200. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:40:03 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-23 6:20:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hmusseau@YAHOO.COM writes: > >How is this for a way to reconcile the conflicting information? After the > destruction of Alphatia, the Nucleus goes into a week-long adjustment > phase. For one week mortal magic (but not Immortal magic) cannot > be cast, but ongoing spells remain in effect. > > >The above explanation seems to be compatible with everything we know > about the events surrounding the destruction of Alphatia. > > Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian wizards use their > magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. That is why I said (or meant to say, if that item was actually omitted from my message and not snipped from your reply) that the effect was in the vicinity of Glantri only (with the exact radius unspecified, but certainly NOT extending to Alphatia). That way you get the mortal magic failure where it is mentioned as occurring (Glantri) and have magic still functioning in places where it is mentioned as still working (Alphatian Sea). By limiting the failure to ongoing spells, we avoid the infamous SPLAT and leave the Alphatian Wizards able to escape with their lives. Since the 1000 Wizards seem to have basically disappeared from the scene at that point, I wonder whether a large number of them might have found their way to the Atruaghin Plateau, conquered it, and begun exploiting and dominating the natives. While the PWA suggests that the Atruaghins eventually revolt and drive them away, I think that leaving the Alphatians in place there turns a rather boring Hollow-World-like museum setting into a dangerous place ripe for adventure -- and there is no shortage of real world history to use as source material for later adventures. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:24:20 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards >> Lack of magic would indeed hit Glantrians just as hard as the Alphatians. There would doubtlessly be much confusion as a consequence. And while I agree that saying 'the Alphatians wouldn't fly' is suspiciously pro-Alphatian (or anti-Glantrian), I think saying 'the loss of magic wouldn't cause confusion among the Glantrians' is just as pro-Glantrian (or anti-Alphatian, as the case may be), as in both cases, it seems rather convenient to me. << What confusion would it cause at the instant of "precipitation"? The main confusion would be which Alphatian wizard to target first. It's, IMO, rather suspiciously convenient to think that Glantri would be thrown into an immediate tizzy and be unable to notice who their enemies are. Much of the "disorder" in Alphatia, for example, consisted of people blaming this or that Wizard for the failure of magic. But in Glantri in the aftermath of the bombardment, there's a convenient scapegoat for everything - the guys who just tried to kill you. To think that virtually all Glantrians would ignore them immediately and do something else is wishful thinking at best. >> Harsh comments, but yes... Still, I do believe you're forgetting about all those secretive organizations within Glantri (ELF? FAIRIE? Certainly the Followers of the Claymore would take advantage of the situation). << I think they would, but they also know who their enemies are in an order of priority. They'd certainly do what they could if an oportunity presented it, but faced with two immediate choices, I think it's stretching things a might far, to put it mildly, to assume they'd simply ignore the Alphatian wizards. But, lets ask those who think in a Glantrian mindset, perhaps, if they think that the Glantrians would just go about their business and perhaps invite the nearest Alphatian who just bombarded them if they wanted to join in looting a Prince's tower with them. >> Actually it is quite possible to cast a number of spells under water, though there are indeed many that are totally useless there (fireballs just produce large amounts of bubbles, and casting lightning bolts is ill adviced for obvious reasons), at least according to the Complete Wizard's Handbook. << It is if you're breathing water - if you're drowning, though, it's kind of hard to incant. Yes, many spells *work* under water, but casting those with a verbal component would be hard unless you've already got Water Breathing in effect. >> Could still put those wizards in a lot of trouble however, because they'd be deep in the ocean and it would be rather strange for them to conviently have Breathe Water memorized...<< Yep, exactly. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:30:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: WWM > >Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian >wizards use their >magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. > >> It's rather disappointing plotwise, though - they could at least have added an explanantion for Zandor to go there, << Actually, WotI does say: after Sundsvall is destroyed, Zandor makes his father's city his new HQ. See "Winter, Year 1,009: Thousand Wizards Convene." >> That's all! There is no mention of them in canon ever again. (Or else, please point it out someone) << There isn't. >> (Zyndryl gets to save Aquas, Zandor gets to teleport away) << Well, again: Zandor doesn't have to Teleport to get to Aquas because he begins the Event there. As for Zyndryl, in theory the work he did to save Aquas might not have involved magic, but coordinating disaster relief &tc. But still, overall I think Herve's theory plugs a lot of holes, and makes the best sense. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:04:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-23 11:27:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > What confusion would it cause at the instant of "precipitation"? > The main confusion would be which Alphatian wizard to target first. It's, > IMO, rather suspiciously convenient to think that Glantri would be thrown > into an immediate tizzy and be unable to notice who their enemies are. Much > of the "disorder" in Alphatia, for example, consisted of people blaming this > or that Wizard for the failure of magic. But in Glantri in the aftermath of > the bombardment, there's a convenient scapegoat for everything - the guys who > just tried to kill you. > > To think that virtually all Glantrians would ignore them immediately and do > something else is wishful thinking at best. The exact mechanics of the magic failure would be very important in determining the effects. If we go with the weakened effects that I suggested as well as assume reasonably intelligent tactics on both sides, then very few Alphatians should be in flight -- while flying gives them a better shot at the interior of Glantri City, it also makes them better targets for the defending Glantrian Wizards. You don't get to be 36th level by being stupid, so it is safe to assume that any flying Alphatian Wizards are invisible (to give the Glantrians at least a minor bit of difficulty in targeting them -- they would thus be scouts rather than heavy artillery) and that most of the rest are hiding in nearby fields from which they are throwing their spells at the walls of the city. When the magic fails, I suggested that in this second, weaker Week without Magic the only effect was the inability to cast mortal spells in the vicinity of Glantri City. This effect would of course first be noticed by the Wizards on both sides as their attack spells fail. The Alphatians, of course, would flee as soon as a couple of spells fail -- and they would literally head for the hills, not for the nearest village filled with vengeful Glantrians. Some Glantrians would pursue, but the Alphatians would have a substantial head start and thus a very good chance of getting away. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:34:10 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards >> If we go with the weakened effects that I suggested as well as assume reasonably intelligent tactics on both sides, then very few Alphatians should be in flight -- while flying gives them a better shot at the interior of Glantri City, it also makes them better targets for the defending Glantrian Wizards. You don't get to be 36th level by being stupid, << Yes, all the more reason to fly then, though: They might be targets of the Glantrian Wizards (few of whom are 36th level), but they will be able to see each other, and avoid each other's spells (an overlooked consideration by too many people is that if they're walking the streets of Glantri - and they wouldn't be doing so in a tight pack because that would negate their best advantage - they might accidentally hit each *other* with their spells); flying gives them an unobstructed aim at the city, and they won't accidentally blow each other up with an unfortunately aimed Meteor Swarm or two. "Friendly Fire Casualties" would be a real, and possibly severe, problem if they were walking through the city. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael McConnell Subject: Shadow Elves and things Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think that the whole surface/Shadow elf thing is a pretty complex moral situation, and is a good example of the kind of thing I really like about Mystara. Without beating a dead (or shunned) horse, you have to admit that the whole Shadow Elf/ Israeli comparison does a make a bit of sense from and Old Testament religion point-of-view. And Vin, if you apologize any more I'm going to be very upset. :) Am I the only person who's played a Shadow Elf pc? It's been a pretty interesting experience. The only real way I could justify his being on the surface (aside from working for the Serpent network, which was impossible since he started as 1st level) was to make him a Wanderer. Which is also fun, playing a character that old. We've used the 2nd ed aging stats (which is what the character was under at the time). The character can still lift a sword, but can't exactly do a whole lot of damage with it- but, to quote Carey Elwes, that's hardly common knowledge. I'm kind of interested in this whole WotI/NoS thing. I too was wondering about the rules in 2e Kingdom of Magic, as near as I could tell they were ignoring any kind of changes to the Nucleus and continuing with the drain. Here's another thing to ponder- now that Rad is vanished, the Brotherhood is pretty much without leadership, and I always got the impression that he sort of kept things in check. For example, the orgininal Gaz states that one must be a noble to join the Brotherhood (and thus be able to use the Radiance), while GKoM ignores both this and the old Order of the Radiance, which presumably was also enforced by Rad. Any thoughts? M. Popular culture... is the test bed of our futurity. William Gibson, "Idoru" _________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE zombieworld.com Email account at... http://www.evilemail.com zombieworld.com - The dead come back to life, just for you. _________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:56:00 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Rakasta hunters (was How many Mystarans exist?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-23 8:58:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: > OK, than the Simbasta will have a real hard time hunting unless they are > actually as fast as cheetas, which I find impossible if they run on two > legs. Actually Rakasta would have the same advantage that prehistoric Human hunters did -- while they could not run as fast as four-legged beasts, they could run for a LONG time. If they are smart and alert enough not to lose the track of their prey, eventually they will catch up and kill it. Rakasta would have the advantage over Humans of better senses and a slightly better running speed, so they could indeed be quite effective hunters even on foot. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:56:01 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-23 7:29:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > But then how did Glantri survive the bombardment by the Alphatian wizards? > Wouldn't all that was left be a smoking crater? Or are Glantrian wizards and > soldiers so efficient that they actually managed to make the Alphatians ( > several 36th level ones) flee home just in time to still be struck by the > Doomsday Weapon? My theory is that most of them bombarded Glantri City from ground level (so as to avoid making themselves obvious targets for the Glantrian Wizard defenders). Most of the damage they inflicted was absorbed by the city walls and the surrounding countryside. The very localized failure of magic near Glantri City kept the 1000 Wizards from returning home and thus saved them from winding up at the bottom of the sea. Most of them survived, fled from Glantri on foot, and eventually became refugees in whatever Known World nations would have them. The largest contingent of them conquered the Alphatian Plateau and are still there oppressing the technologically and magically primitive natives. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:26:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: 3E spells (was: DoD/Fate of a thousand wizards) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 2000/10/22, 01:59 +0100, The Stalker wrote: >On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:06:55 Byron D. Molix wrote: > >I find it very difficult to swallow that an old hand gamer would dislike 3e > >mostly based on terminology and explanations. The game works 90% like it > >always did in the things that matter to most people. For instance, wizards > >still select and use spells in almost exactly the same way as before (which > >without the inclusion of the Sorcerer would have driven a dissatisfied gamer > >such as myself up the wall). > > > >I don't dislike 3e *only* because of of terminology and explanations, but >also because of the rules. I dislike the sorceror because I think it's a >boring class (there is a reason why people quickly nicknamed them >'fireball-dispenser', as those old, boring spells are likely the only ones >they'll ever cast), Interestingly, I have a player considering Sorcery and I fully expect him to choose some of the more interesting spells and not just stay with the "same old boring stuff", as you call it. We're strong role-players and he's quite likely to avoid min-maxing in exchange for developing his sorcery based on his PC's background and personality. So, having acquired whatever spells the player chooses, the PC will then use the one(s) that best fit the current situation, whatever that happens to be. > and I think the support of a class-based system is archaic and obsolete > in role-playing of today - they should have based the whole thing on a > skill-based system instead IMHO. You may be right, about class-based systems being "archaic" -- it is the "grandaddy of RPGs", but I'd hesitate to say it's obsolete. I prefer the class based system myself, because I tend to see them as representing the archetypal fantasy hero (or anti-hero). Additionally, I personally don't think it would really /be/ D&D if it no longer used some form of classes. That's one of those "Sacred Cows" that I definitely agree with. Essentially, if you don't want a class-based system, then don't play D&D -- play GURPS or FUDGE or something else. D&D >I'm also disappointed that they used the old memorization/prepared spells >system rather than a spell point system - they did make one for PO:SM >which could have been modified to work well (it does IMC), but they just >threw the idea away :( The didn't exactly "throw the idea away" as the Sorcerer class can be seen as using a modified spell-point system -- any spells a sorcerer knows of a given level can be cast X number of times a day based on the number (of points) allocated to that level. More freedom than the original "fire and forget" system. But then, you have already said you don't like the Sorcerer class because they will only be "fire-ball dispensers" -- their players not bothering to take any interesting spells in the interest of min-maxing. Oh, and you know what, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that the companion book they'll eventually produce for Magic users (similar to the combat one planned for Fighters and Monk) contained some kind of spell-point magic alternative. > I was excited about it when I first heard of 3e - yes, we really did > need a new version of them game - but I find the results quite > disappointing. Another thing about this is WOTC's elitist attitude about > the project, which I found very unbecoming... As someone mockingly said > on DND-L: "... and it'll even cure cancer too!" Harsh, but there was a > lot of hype about this whole thing, and it has turned out nearly as > interesting and innovative as it should have IMHO. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course. Yes, it was hyped a lot, but that made the whole thing a lot more entertaining for me personally -- I like hype :-D. I just try to remember that is all it is -- hype -- and that despite the hype, the product is still going to be nothing more than a new version of a game I like to play, with improvements here and added flaws there. It worked for me. Know what else? I've actually managed to learn and remember more about the core rules for 3E than I have ever managed to do for any previous version -- including 0E. That's the thing that has definitely made 3E my Fantasy RPG of choice. And, in the long run, it may even make the d20 system my overall RPG of choice. > >As for Concentration, it seems to be the ability to ignore physical > >impairment. Every single DC example is being grappled, damaged, tossed about > >by exterior forces, or engaging in strenuous physical activity. It's a > >tossup as to whether willpower is better than stamina in this case. > >Although I'll tell you that no matter how angry I get, I can't yell at > >someone if I'm winded and panting. > > > >The rules don't give you that choice as they are written, though, which I >think is a mistake. That's not true, actually. In the DMG, p91, under "Variant: Skills with Different Abilities" it says the following: "A skill check always includes skill ranks plus an ability modifier, but you can use a different ability modifier from normal if the character is in a situation where the normal key ability does not apply." They give a number of examples, including the following: "A character has created a masterwork dagger as a gift for a visiting noble. He attempts to inscribe it with intricate designs. The DM rules that this is a Dexterity check to which the character's Craft (weaponsmithing) ranks apply." So, if there was a situation where relying on your Willpower makes more sense than Constitution then the DM can make that call and ask you to make a concentration check using your Wisdom mod instead of your Con mod. > >3e isn't perfect, but no game is, especially 1st Edition. If I can resist > >making spellcasters roll to cast spells and totally removing that 'spells > >per day' mechanic in favor of playing the game as written, it means that it > >isn't a horribly broken engine. > > > >Obviously no game is ever perfect, but there are some systems out there >which are older than 3e and yet seem less flawed to me. So go ahead and play those then. :-) Me, I'm starting a 3E Mystara campaign in the very near future. I like 3E because it has many of the strengths of some of those other systems (skills, the idea of feats or talents, etc.) while keeping the core rules a a level that are easy to pick up and learn. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 01:25:56 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 12:38:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > >> If we go with the weakened effects that I suggested as well as assume > reasonably intelligent tactics on both sides, then very few Alphatians should > be in flight -- while flying gives them a better shot at the interior of > Glantri City, it also makes them better targets for the defending Glantrian > Wizards. You don't get to > be 36th level by being stupid, << > > Yes, all the more reason to fly then, though: > > They might be targets of the Glantrian Wizards (few of whom are 36th level), > but they will be able to see each other, and avoid each other's spells (an > overlooked consideration by too many people is that if they're walking the > streets of Glantri - and they wouldn't be doing so in a tight pack because > that would negate their best advantage - they might accidentally hit each * > other* with their spells); flying gives them an unobstructed aim at the city, > and they won't accidentally blow each other up with an unfortunately aimed > Meteor Swarm or two. "Friendly Fire Casualties" would be a real, and possibly > severe, problem if they were walking through the city. But I was assuming they were outside the city -- so friendly fire casualties would not be a problem as long as they are aiming all of their destructive spells at the city. Assume that the city walls have powerful protective enchantments and that the Alphatians assume they will be able to wear down those defenses with prolonged bombardment, and you have a very ready explanation as to why the Alphatians fail to inflict major damage on the interior of Glantri City while managing to terrify the defenders with the likely results of what would happen if Etienne did not activate the Doomsday Weapon. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:35:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > "Houshold magic fails so the Glantrians have to turn to comforting distraught housefraus since the pilot light in their magic oven went out", and other rather attempts to claim that the Glantrians would ignore the guys who bombarded their city. BTW, I don't think that many people immediatly realized that magic was gone (especially mundaners). I mean, if there's a black out, the first thing you think isn't "Oh, the electromagnetic energy is not working anymore!" but "Something has happened to the local power plant (or network, etc)". The average Wizard would have just thought (after recovering from being stunned by the fall): "These Glantrians have a powerful dispel magic! Let us Teleport back to safety..." After a couple attempts, they will realize that spells don't work. Still, they may not realize that magic is gone in the entire world ("maybe these glantrians have a secret "suppress magic" spell or whatever")! The average glantrian wizard will realize it earlier (no stun recovering time). Since they are supposed to be clever wizards, they won't go around telling it to the commoners... they'll say those thing you are always told when things aren't going well, that is "All is going well. Magic will be restored as soon as possible." The Princes, being more than clever, will bluff their way out of this, telling everyone that they have purposefully suppressed magic in the country, so that the alphatian invaders could be destroyed. Now, the Glantrian citizen may decide that it would be better to capture/kill those wizards, before magic comes back... As a side note, what happened to the poor glantrian bureaucrats closed in the parliament (which has no normal doors/windows)? Did they die of starving/dehydration/suffocation? Where they rescued? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:27:21 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Okay, let's add a couple of considerations: I came to believe now that the reasons why Glantri is not a smoking crater are mainly that: 1. There were only a handful of Wizards over Glantri, not 1000 nor 400: not even 50, I'd dare to say. 2. They were not level 36 but often much lower, despite their "honour" name of "1000 36th level wizards". You don't believe me? Let's go back to what Canon says: 1. "MANY of its members perished during the (1st) week without magic..." (WotI, pagg. 89-90): so they're no longer 1000 (if ever they were). 2. "Terari and MANY Shiye-Lawr elves accept exile" (pag.90): so there are MANY elves (max.10th level and not 36th) among the ranks of the Council, which leaves open the possibility for many other lower-levelled mages to take part in it. 3. Zandor "gives the dissenter an ultimatum... MOST cave in" (pag.90): however mighty Zandor be, could he possibly oppose don't say 1000, but just 4 or 5 level 36 mages banded together against him? For all of these reasons I'd say that those who eventually teleported to the sky over Glantri were the scattered remnants of the Great Council, and were not at the level of being able to release those many Meteor Swarms (WotI, pag.90, says they use "Fire, Lightning and Death": it doesn't mention Earthquake, Wish or Meteor Swarm). So, apart for the fact that when magic ceases the survivors of the *SPLAT* would LOOSE their Teleport/Contingency spells because they'd attempt to use them before realizing that not a powerful Dispel Magic, but another WWM is taking place (thus extremizing the casualties among Alphatians), the main result is that the desperate attack ordered by Zandor is not heavy enough to destroy (or severely damage) Glantri City, because the attackers are not enough (in their number as well as in their Level). ______________________ The second problem is the 2nd WWM: I had already proposed a shorter Time Without Magic; somebody suggested a single Day of Dread; but this is both contrasting Canon and inconsistent: 1. It contradicts canon where it states "The week following the events... will be TOTALLY without magic" (WotI, pag.70) 2. It is inconsistent because if the destruction of Sundsvall resulted in a whole WWM, the much more severe drain of energy necessary for the sinking of Alphatia cannot result in a single Day of Dread. However, WotI adds about the 2nd WWM "Except Immortal-level magic, of course" (pag.70) - which is inconsistent in itself: the 1st WWM didn't allow for that exception, so probably this is a bug created by WotI's author, Aaron Allston, in order to allow for Benekander to save the PCs. But it was badly done, because it leaves other inconsistencies open in further Canonic history/geography (Floaring Ar maintained, Zandor teleporting, Aquas saved by magic, no 2nd WWM recorded in history, etc.). There's a way, though, to fix this: imagine that a 2nd WWM is STARTING to happen: identical to the 1st, it also would prevent Immortal magic and would last for a whole week... if a special event did not chance to happen: RAD GETS SUCKED INTO THE NUCLEUS: this event not only - as I suggested in a previous mail - restores the Energy level in Mystara to a pre-WotI status (via Rad's Immortal Power Points of Energy), but at the same time it stops the 2nd WWM at its very beginning: so canon is SORT OF saved: the 2nd WWM starts, but it ends in a few minutes because of Rad's merging with the NoS, and thus it's not recorded in history: nobody realizes it ever happened, because to the whole world it just looked like a short, temporary loss of magic and not a true WWM. Any comments? Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:47:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: 3E: Undead and Concentration check Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Knott wrote: In a message dated 2000-10-16 1:15:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: > I wasn't aware that undead didn't have Con scores in 3e. It seems rather > odd that they don't, though - Con may not represent their physical > health (they are dead), but it can still represent their resilience and > body structure. Plus, they need something to give them hit point bonuses > per hit die, and affect Con-related skills. <> Now, this is interesting, since it's a topic I recently addressed with my fellow player of a vampire mage. Why should undead get a Concentration check AT ALL?? I mean, their nervous system is KO, they feel NO PAIN, period! Hence they shouldn't be bothered by fear of breaking their concentration while casting a spell, and since this reasoning seems logical to me I ruled an undead spellcaster's concentration is never interrupted by others' attacks (this is however balanced for Undead PCs by the fact they have to make a Int or Wis check EVERY TIME they cast a spell!). Why do u think an undead should bother with Concentration skill/feat whatever? And what's this absolutely crappy idea of using one's Charisma to improve the Con check??? There's no logic in it! DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:09:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Federico Kaftal wrote: > RAD GETS SUCKED INTO THE NUCLEUS: this event not only - as I suggested = in a > previous mail - restores the Energy level in Mystara to a pre-WotI = status > (via Rad's Immortal Power Points of Energy), but at the same time it = stops > the 2nd WWM at its very beginning: so canon is SORT OF saved: the 2nd = WWM > starts, but it ends in a few minutes because of Rad's merging with the = NoS, > and thus it's not recorded in history: nobody realizes it ever = happened, > because to the whole world it just looked like a short, temporary loss = of > magic and not a true WWM. Well, in that case it spits him out again :), since he shows up in the = canon adventure Mark of Amber. And if the Nucleus is at a pre-WotI level = wouldn't that cancel the Days of Dread? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:21:01 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > The very localized failure of magic > near Glantri City kept the 1000 Wizards from returning home and thus > saved them from winding up at the bottom of the sea. Most of them > survived, fled from Glantri on foot, and eventually became refugees in > whatever Known World nations would have them. The largest contingent > of them conquered the Alphatian Plateau and are still there oppressing > the technologically and magically primitive natives. I take it you mean the Atruaghin Plateau? ;) You're entering a new subject here. Some Alphatians did conquer the = Atruaghin Plateau, but were thrown out in AC1011. And how they managed = to do that is likely a whole new vile subject, but it is canon. And = trying to make sense of the whole mess while staying true to canon was = what started this discussion IIRC... Of course I'll leave it at this if = you drop the '...are still there...' part. :) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:32:52 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-10-23 7:29:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: >=20 > > But then how did Glantri survive the bombardment by the Alphatian = wizards? > > Wouldn't all that was left be a smoking crater? Or are Glantrian = wizards and > > soldiers so efficient that they actually managed to make the = Alphatians ( > > several 36th level ones) flee home just in time to still be struck = by the > > Doomsday Weapon? >=20 > My theory is that most of them bombarded Glantri City from ground = level > (so as to avoid making themselves obvious targets for the Glantrian = Wizard > defenders). Most of the damage they inflicted was absorbed by the = city > walls and the surrounding countryside. Actually if the Alphatians were bombarding the city walls they would be = standing in the suburbs where they would be easy prey for the people = around them (especially once magic fails) and any soldiers/archers. If = attacking from the ground it would make a lot more sense to attack the = city from the south where there are only a few settlements and Glantri = City has no city walls (they ruin the view, GAZ3 p. 38)! Appearing on = the south side of the rivers Isoile or Vesubia they wouldn't have to = worry about nearby offenses and have a clear shot at the city itself. = The merchants, entertainers, and port quarters would lie open before = them. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:44:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Federico Kaftal wrote: > 2. "Terari and MANY Shiye-Lawr elves accept exile" (pag.90): so there = are > MANY elves (max.10th level and not 36th) among the ranks of the = Council, > which leaves open the possibility for many other lower-levelled mages = to > take part in it. Actually DotE book III says (p.6) 'Every user of magic who achieves = ultimate mastery (36th level)'. If elves are allowed on the council (as = they seem to be) they should naturally be 10th level, since that is = ultimate mastery for an elf. And since MANY of the elves leave, that = must mean that there are more remaining 36th level magic users than 10th = level elves who participate in the attack. > For all of these reasons I'd say that those who eventually teleported = to the > sky over Glantri were the scattered remnants of the Great Council, and = were > not at the level of being able to release those many Meteor Swarms = (WotI, > pag.90, says they use "Fire, Lightning and Death": it doesn't mention > Earthquake, Wish or Meteor Swarm). That's creative writing. It doesn't say Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and = Death spells either, and doesn't actually mention any spells at all. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:51:34 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stop it before it gets to flame. But if you want to discuss the topic, do so by personal mail (I am very interested in it, if you want to.) Iulius Scaevola ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:45:04 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Federico Kaftal wrote: >RAD GETS SUCKED INTO THE NUCLEUS: this event not only - as I suggested in a >previous mail - restores the Energy level in Mystara to a pre-WotI status >(via Rad's Immortal Power Points of Energy), but at the same time it stops >the 2nd WWM at its very beginning: so canon is SORT OF saved: the 2nd WWM >starts, but it ends in a few minutes because of Rad's merging with the NoS, >and thus it's not recorded in history: nobody realizes it ever happened, >because to the whole world it just looked like a short, temporary loss of >magic and not a true WWM. Jacob Skytte replied: Well, in that case it spits him out again :), since he shows up in the canon adventure Mark of Amber. And if the Nucleus is at a pre-WotI level wouldn't that cancel the Days of Dread? ******************** Yes, it spits him out, but as a mere mortal, I assume, thus retaining his Immortal PP. I believe that the Day of Dread already took place every year, at least by 1000 AC - the age of the Gazetteers: IIRC it is mentioned already in the Calendar included in module B10 Night's Dark Terror, which pre-dates Gaz 1, Gaz 3 and WotI. Gaz 3 (Principalities of Glantri) merely gives an explanation, in terms of drained Rad force, of an event which was already described under the generic name of "Star Cataclism" in previous sources. Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:14:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, it spits him out, but as a mere mortal, I assume, thus retaining his > Immortal PP. > Depends just how resourceful your gaming group is on that score. Mine were both smart and compassionate enough to ensure his return as Rad. For this idea of yours to work you've made the penalty for sucess far worse than the outcome of failure. Since if Rad does return as an Immortal the Nucleus must provide him with his PP. > I believe that the Day of Dread already took place every year, at least by > 1000 AC - the age of the Gazetteers: IIRC it is mentioned already in the > Calendar included in module B10 Night's Dark Terror, which pre-dates Gaz 1, > Gaz 3 and WotI. Gaz 3 (Principalities of Glantri) merely gives an > explanation, in terms of drained Rad force, of an event which was already > described under the generic name of "Star Cataclism" in previous sources. > Actually it's merely the possibility (3%) in most of the other 'canon' that even mentions it (Karameikos, Glantri, Rockhome and Ethengar). It's not even mentioned in the rest, apart from possibly the Alphatian 'day between the years' of Amphimir/Vatermont 28th. Two months after, or 10 before ir you prefer, the worldwide Day of Dread. The staistical implausability of such an event not having occured before AC 1000 has been brought up on the list before though. Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:18:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Seems like we get a lot of interesting reactions and ideas on the subject. Good. I think we can end up with various scenarios that DMs can use, adopting (and adapting) the one that comes closer to the way they want their campaign going (like, Alphatia sinking or not, Glantri being unscratched or destroyed, no alphatian wizard surviving or all of them, most Alphatian wizards dead or back in Alphatia or many left behind in the OW, etc.) and the PCs' actions. From: Jacob Skytte >But then how did Glantri survive the bombardment by the Alphatian wizards? Wouldn't all that was left be a smoking crater? Or are Glantrian wizards and soldiers so efficient that they actually managed to make the Alphatians (several 36th level ones) flee home just in time to still be struck by the Doomsday Weapon? Well in the scenario that I propose they started their bombardment where they had teleported (outside Glantri City) and assume that the Doomsday Weapon was activated before they had progressed much toward the inner city, and that after the activation they are warned rather quickly of things happening back home and thus teleport back before they are there. Those that aren't warned and/or decide to continue with the attack nevertheless then would become less of a threat so that the Glantrians would be able to deal with them. From: Federico Kaftal >I would love to agree with Herv�: basically I too believe that the 2nd WWM is a "bug" to be somehow fixed, given how many contradictions it involves in WotI. ok and, i think, there are no contradictions at all if we just suppress it (provided we go with the Alphatians arriving outside the city). >Said this, we need to sort out what did happen after the Doomsday Weapon activates for the second time: something must have happened to the Thousand (or 400 or whatever...) Wizards, otherwise thay would have REALLY damaged Glantri City. Which was not. So, either we decide that Glanti City WAS indeed nearly destroyed and that it was later rebuilt/repaired, or for some reason indeed magic HAS failed, and the Thousand Wizards could not perform their deeds. >In the first case, if you like to have them drowned, just allow them to end their bombing and then... teleport home :) That is what I assume in my scenario. If magic doesn't fail, word can get from home that it is being hit by powerful natural disasters (earthquakes, water rising, storms, ...). The Grand Council can be warned by magical alarms (your tower is "under attack"), by fellow wizards, by their retinues (household servant head warning his master using the emergency comm device he's been entrusted with), or even by Zandor and his staff that would call off the operation; right after the second activation of the Doomsday Weapon, clerics in Alphatia may receive warnings by their Immortals and though they don't necessarily know the extent of the destruction to come they could have an idea from what happened in Sundsvall earlier. Note that those that would immediately teleport home wouldn't drown - it takes hours for the continent to sink. Those that would teleport only later on, though, would. Again, that allows to modulate the level of losses that is preferable in an individual campaign. >In the 2nd case, you've got the *SPLAT* but you still have to find a suitable way to explain the loss of magic's quite blatant contradictions: I suggest that magic is lost only temporarily (a few seconds are enough): so the *SPLAT* happens, and the few surviving Alphatians have a VEEERY good reason to teleport home as soon as they can, and stop their attack mission. At the same time, Alphatia starts sinking but magic has already returned, which explains all the apparent contradictions. >What do you think? Can we admit not a 2nd WWM but a Full Round (10 seconds) Without Magic? It is yet another alternative way of dealing with it, one that increases the death rate among the Alphatian wizards with the SPLAT factor, yet doesn't contradict the rest of canon (except of course the mention that there's a week without magic). The differences between that and the no magic failure scenario would be: - SPLAT vs no SPLAT: more Alphatian wizards die - since magic fails, if temporarily, the Alphatian wizards that survive SPLAT are probably unwilling to stay in Glantri any more time, so most immediately teleport back home (without the need of being warned from home: they got their own warning, if you will). Thus, they are in Alphatia when it sinks and are transported to the HW, while in the other scenario more may remain behind in the KW or teleport later to now-sunken Alphatia and drown. From: Evil Genius >No, these excuses are all amusing, but for a real, solid, believable theory as to what might have happened, Herve's scenario is by far the best. Thank you. Though there are other ideas that are good also, depending on the preference of the DM and the actions of the players. Oh BTW, I agree that some rationalizations for saving Alphatian wizards were pretty lame. From: Evil Genius >Well, in Herve's scenario what happens is that, since magic works, they get warnings from home (Aunt Bea sends a Sending message or something telling them that the place is falling apart around her, quick come save the place! - those first messages probably speak of earthquakes and the like, not "the continent is sinking", since they would be a lot of individual, local reports of "what's happening in Wizard X's home town") - they would then return home to try and help rectify the situation/put it right, thus leaving off the bombardment for the moment (after all, in their mind at the time, Glantri will still be there to bombard tommorrow, it isn't going anywhere - and they *DON'T* know at the time that Alphatia *is* going somewhere). exactly. From: The Stalker >It doesn't say that exactly (splitting hairs now!). WotI just says: "Zandor remains untouched in his father's undersea kingdom..." PWA1 says that he "survived the sinking of Alphatia, casting a teleport to get to safety. Soon afterwards, he found his way to Aquas", I admit that it's a little convenient that the emperor just happened to be in the one place where he was safe, but it doesn't actually say that he teleported there after Alphatia began to sink. Well it says he teleports to safety, so that would be after the sinking began. > It's rather disappointing plotwise, though - they could at least have added an explanantion for Zandor to go there, like his father not wanting to support his attack on Glantri and Zandor going there to put him in his place or something, but it just doesn't :( well, it does say "for safety". >The affair with Zyndryl (Zandor's father) *is* quite odd, however, as it clearly says that he cast Wish, Force Field, and Stoneform to save Aquas from the earthquakes that Alphatia's sinking caused (PWA1, p.15) I see several solutions: - magic works - magic ceases to work and we ignore that the books say he casts spell, and replace that with him directing slaves and servants in damage prevention / repair teams - magic ceases to work and for one week (or day) he directs repair teaml as above, and when magic returns he uses spells instead / in addition, until he eventually dies in an accident (I don't believe canon says he dies within a week (day), and the earthquake damages in Aquas probably last longer than that). >WotI establishes a second WWM. I do find it odd that magic wouldn't fail the second time the Doomsday Weapon was used. Having a DoD would be better, and would at least establish that regular event. You can go either way, depending on what you prefer for your campaign: - Since there is a first WWM, it means the NoS has gone past a certain Rad level (500?). There should be an annual WWM each year, and the second activation doesn't cause Rad level to increase to the next step so nothing more happens and there is no magic loss. - There is a first WWM as rad level goes past 500, and because the second activation adds so much Rad there is an immediate second WWM. Since the Rad level total isn't that high, it is still one yearly WWM; the "death" of Rad lowers the Rad level to below 500 though and only one DoD hoccurs each year. - There is a first WWM, and the second activation causes an immediate DoD. The death of Rad reduces the yearly WWM to a yearly DoD. - There is a first WWM, and the second activation causes the beginning of a second WWM. However, as Rad's lifeforce recharges the NoS, the WWM is cut short (to a day, or whatever). The death of Rad reduces the yearly WWM to a yearly DoD. >Nope, it just says, "The next day, the "Thousand Wizards" Teleport to the skies over Glantri City and begin to bombard the city with fire, lightning, and death" (indidentally, note that they teleport to the skies!) That's all! There is no mention of them in canon ever again. (Or else, please point it out someone) ok >It is, though it's a fairly reasonable conclusion. Agreed (if there's no magic) >I wouldn't call it a tiny sentence, but it is the only source of the second WWM (WOTI, book 2, p.70 if anybody needs to see it). That's what I meant, yes. >IMHO we should at least have a DoD. IMHO we shouldn't, as we don't need it, and it isn't logical considering how the NoS works, but I do take all the possibilities into consideration. >I don't think that works so well - Rad/Etienne activates the Doomsday Weapon to save Glantri City, so if they'd already gone home, there would be no need to do so. Rad doesn't activate the Doomsday Weapon, the second time, it is either the PCs, or the battle between the Immortals, or the Alphatians' spells. In any case, it's an accident. >How about a compromise? We'll have a DoD, but because it starts in the middle of all this confusion, it has some weird effects on magic - magic *begins* to fail, but some spells do work (Zyndryl gets to save Aquas, Zandor gets to teleport away), but within a time limit of ten minutes to an hour, all magic has failed and will not work until an entire day has passed. That way we could also have wizard who teleported to other dimensions, or who were even displaced in time! I have ulterior motives here, of course - I *don't* want all those "Thousand Wizards" (however many were left) to survive! I'd like no more than 10% to survive... They were so boring, even in DotE, that Allston never bothered to describe them at all, which makes it pretty clear that they're quite boring IMHO. The only one of them we even know of is Tylion/Terari! If you want that, then use one of the scenario I outlined above, one where the death of Rad stops the second WWM before it has elapsed. Since it happens only a few minutes after the activation of the weapon, the magic would have stopped for anytime you wish between these few minutes Rad's lifeforce recharges the NoS immediately) to a few hours (it takes some time for Rad's lifeforce to recharge the NoS, but not too long for the continent to have sunk before magic returns). From: David Knott >That is why I said (or meant to say, if that item was actually omitted from my message and not snipped from your reply) that the effect was in the vicinity of Glantri only (with the exact radius unspecified, but certainly NOT extending to Alphatia). That way you get the mortal magic failure where it is mentioned as occurring (Glantri) and have magic still functioning in places where it is mentioned as still working (Alphatian Sea). By limiting the failure to ongoing spells, we avoid the infamous SPLAT and leave the Alphatian Wizards able to escape with their lives. Okay, that is another possibility. >Since the 1000 Wizards seem to have basically disappeared from the scene at that point, I wonder whether a large number of them might have found their way to the Atruaghin Plateau, conquered it, and begun exploiting and dominating the natives. While the PWA suggests that the Atruaghins eventually revolt and drive them away, I think that leaving the Alphatians in place there turns a rather boring Hollow-World-like museum setting into a dangerous place ripe for adventure -- and there is no shortage of real world history to use as source material for later adventures. a large number seems like a lot for the Atruaghins to revolt against later, though. but if you want to ignore canon and have the Alphatians dominate the Atruaghins IYC, that's indeed not diffucult to stage. From: Evil Genius >Actually, WotI does say: after Sundsvall is destroyed, Zandor makes his father's city his new HQ. See "Winter, Year 1,009: Thousand Wizards Convene." ok, then for those that use a 2nd WWM the fact that Zandor survives is easily explained. Without a WWM, the story would then be that he was on mainland when the continent began to sink, and he teleported away to Aquas to return to his HQ. >There isn't. ok >Well, again: Zandor doesn't have to Teleport to get to Aquas because he begins the Event there. see above >As for Zyndryl, in theory the work he did to save Aquas might not have involved magic, but coordinating disaster relief &tc. yes, if you use a magic failure then that's the way to go, or have him die only after the no maic period has ended. >But still, overall I think Herve's theory plugs a lot of holes, and makes the best sense. Thank you. I have posted your check :) From: David Knott >My theory is that most of them bombarded Glantri City from ground level (so as to avoid making themselves obvious targets for the Glantrian Wizard defenders). Most of the damage they inflicted was absorbed by the city walls and the surrounding countryside. The very localized failure of magic near Glantri City kept the 1000 Wizards from returning home and thus saved them from winding up at the bottom of the sea. Most of them survived, fled from Glantri on foot, and eventually became refugees in whatever Known World nations would have them. The largest contingent of them conquered the Alphatian Plateau and are still there oppressing the technologically and magically primitive natives. You can use that scenario if it suits you best. One remark though: I doubt the wizards would go on foot, this is bad strategy for wizards, especially without fighter support. They would be overrun too easily. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:00:50 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Paul George Dooley wrote: >Yes, it spits him out, but as a mere mortal, I assume, thus retaining his >Immortal PP. > Depends just how resourceful your gaming group is on that score. Mine were both smart and compassionate enough to ensure his return as Rad. For this idea of yours to work you've made the penalty for sucess far worse than the outcome of failure. Since if Rad does return as an Immortal the Nucleus must provide him with his PP. ************* Yes, but after Mark of Amber or any other adventure in which Rad regains immortality, the NoS will provide him with PPs derived from Entropy, not from Energy: so, Mystara won't be deprived of its magic anymore :) (...unless somebody reprograms the Nucleus once again, that is). Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:24:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: 3E Lycanthropy and the flavor of PC4 (longish) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andrew Theisen wrote: >> As far as Lycanthropes, I think (again) they are too powerful, not to mention they just don't quite have the flavor of the PC4 lycanthropes. I guess my main complaint is that templates work fine as "beefing up" NPCs, but they don't seem to work too well when applied to PCs... which is maybe the point. I dunno. Anyway, I've started working on the Prestige Class to beat all Prestige Classes- the lycanthrope Prestige Class, and I'll be wanting some feedback on that soon. << I agree that these 3E lycanthropes just don't have the same feel as those of PC4. Personally I liked the way PC4 handled lycanthropes (except for their history, which I thought was a cop-out - it's a magical disease so blame the Alphers...well that's another post perhaps...). Anyway I sat down with the MM the other day and tried to figure out how they worked their lycanthrope template. Here is what I came up with: The base animal's ability scores (in Str, Dex, and Con) -11 are the bonus for the lycanthropes ability scores. Thus a weretier gets a Str +12 (a tiger has a str of 23). It does strike me as odd that a gnomish weretiger should get the same ability score bonuses as a human weretiger (or perhaps even an ogre weretiger). So here is what I propose for evening the scores: The bonus should be: (Animal's ability score - 11) / Animal's size * Character's size round normally Thus our gnomish weretiger would get a Str bonus of +8. Tigers are large (size of 6) while gnomes are small IIRC (size of 4). (23 - 11)/6*4 = 8 An orgish weretiger however is considerably stronger. The ogre is large so his size is 6. (23 - 11)/6*6 = 12 The end result is that characters who are the same size as their lycanthropic animal get the basic unmodified bonus. Characters who are smaller get a slightly smaller bonus, while characters larger than their animal type get a larger bonus. Fractions will occure (especially when the ability bonuses are smaller than the weretiger's +12...and most are), but this shouldn't pose any problem. If a creature is too small to recieve a bonus, then it simply is too small. Although this system solves some of the lycanthrope template problems, it doesn't quite solve them all. This equation assumes that a lycanthropes base ability score is 11. It's quick and easy for NPCs, but here is a better equation for PCs. (Animal ability score - Character ability score) / Animal size * Character size This equation has the effect of bringing a lycanthrope's ability scores up to the ability scores of its animal type (relative to size). This definately tones down the power levels of lycanthropy. To a certian extent it makes sense. Why should an ogre/werefox gain any bonus to strength? If the bonus comes from lycanthropy, the disease itself, then there would be a point, but it appears that the MM is drawing that bonus directly from the animal type. I suppose that this only really works when the animal's ability score is higher than the character's...but IIRC somebody mentioned a dissatisfaction at not having any penalties associated with lycanthropy in this new system. If the character's ability score is larger than the animal's score, then this might result in a penalty. Hmmm...I have to think about this some more (and check some more numbers), but maybe this has potential. It could certainly stress the detrimental aspects of lycanthropy (especially to those 3E characters with thier increased ability scores...). I've also been toying with the idea of making lycanthropic specific feats. For example the tiger has a special ability called Rake. At some point a PC lycanthrope might be able to take this ability as a feat. I need to do more research on this, so I'm not sure exactly how this would work. It's just an idea I thought I would toss around. I'd really appreciate any comments on whether or not people think this lycanthropy system would work. And I'd especially like to hear more of what Andrew has planned for a prestige class. Maybe we can toss some ideas back and forth? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:47:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: 2nd WWM and Fate of the 1000 Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, but after Mark of Amber or any other adventure in which Rad regains > immortality, the NoS will provide him with PPs derived from Entropy, not > from Energy: so, Mystara won't be deprived of its magic anymore :) > (...unless somebody reprograms the Nucleus once again, that is). > Ah yes the famous "It still drains from Entropy" of Bruce's which doesn't cover his totally non-canon Energy drain from Gaz 3, just moves it around a bit. Mind you it does set the precedent of "screw 'canon'" rather firmly in Mystara. ;^) The whole of SNAFU (WotI) should actually have gone something like: Ixion, "Stop playing with that NoS thing, it's destroying the presence of our sphere on Mystara" Rad, "Perhaps instead you could get your fellow Hierarchs of the other spheres to remove the curse that they placed on it which causes such an effect." Ixion, "They did WHAT!" Rad, "That's what my researches show. An artifact which empowers our Sphere, probably created by either, a being more powerful than an Immortal (if you use the SNAFU origin), or several of our fellows of the Sphere of Energy (if you prefer the Gaz3 origin), has be perverted by those of all other Spheres with the exception of Entropy." Ixion "Why those..." FADE Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:53:11 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > Well, I believe Herve made that suggestion as a part of an explanation why central Glantri City wasn't a smoldering ruin after WOTI, so if you dismiss that (I actually found it a little peculiar myself), then we still need to explain why they didn't destroy large parts of the city (which we know they didn't). > Well, I think Glantri City is not without defenses, so it probably took the 1000 wizzes several minutes just to blast through the shields surrounding it (which were probably raised by all the Princes and further reinforced by Radiance magic). By the time they actually got to blasting the City itself, the WWM happened. > Lack of magic would indeed hit Glantrians just as hard as the Alphatians. There would doubtlessly be much confusion as a consequence. And while I agree that saying 'the Alphatians wouldn't fly' is suspiciously pro-Alphatian (or anti-Glantrian), I think saying 'the loss of magic wouldn't cause confusion among the Glantrians' is just as pro-Glantrian (or anti-Alphatian, as the case may be), as in both cases, it seems rather convenient to me. If there is one nation in the world, apart from Alphatia, where the loss of magic would cause problems, then it's clearly Glantri. > Glantri however differs from Alphatia in one thing: it has many mundaners right there who couldn't care less about magic going dead. In fact they probably wouldn't even realize that magic went bye-bye all over the place at first, they'd just see a lot of Alphatians raining from the sky and seize the chance to beat them down ("Rad protects us! He has taken away the magic of these Alphatian pigs."). And I'd think the Glantrian wizards wouldn't be keen on blabbering to everyone that their magic is kaput; sure, word will eventually get out, but not in the first few minutes when the attention of various Glantrian peasants is focused on the evil Alphatians. > Harsh comments, but yes... Still, I do believe you're forgetting about all those secretive organizations within Glantri (ELF? FAIRIE? Certainly the Followers of the Claymore would take advantage of the situation). Similarly, it is just as likely that the guards would leave their posts to kill Alphatians themselves, and doublessly some people would try to take advantage of the situation once they realize what's going on. > The key phrase is "once they realize what's going on", which they might not do for up to several hours. > Actually it is quite possible to cast a number of spells under water, though there are indeed many that are totally useless there (fireballs just produce large amounts of bubbles, and casting lightning bolts is ill adviced for obvious reasons), at least according to the Complete Wizard's Handbook. Could still put those wizards in a lot of trouble however, because they'd be deep in the ocean and it would be rather strange for them to conviently have Breathe Water memorized... > Even if they had, it's useless if you are already underwater. In other words, they are screwed unless they just happen to have a ring of water breathing on (and how many 36th level wizards routinely wear that when they can wear rings of wizardry or other buff items?). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:58:07 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > >> If we go with the weakened effects that I suggested as well as assume reasonably intelligent tactics on both sides, then very few Alphatians should be in flight -- while flying gives them a better shot at the interior of Glantri City, it also makes them better targets for the defending Glantrian Wizards. You don't get to > be 36th level by being stupid, << > > Yes, all the more reason to fly then, though: > Not to mention that while flying they'd be targets for Glantrian wizards, but while walking they'd be targets for Glantrian wizards AND Glantrian soldiers/peasants/other distractions. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:17:29 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: 3E: Undead and Concentration check MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2000 5:57:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT writes: << Why do u think an undead should bother with Concentration skill/feat whatever? And what's this absolutely crappy idea of using one's Charisma to improve the Con check??? There's no logic in it! >> Maybe its their insufferable egos, you know . . . Master of the Night, The Grave could not hold Me, Death is my Mistress, etc . . . that makes a difference if they shuck of puny blows of us mere mortals. BoBoII "May the Light be with you, and The Holy Ones be merciful to you" -Hulean Miranda Warning, also known as 'the kiss of death.' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Fw: [MYSTARA] Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the manner in which Mischa and I agree is a very interesting view into religion itself. I also like to play clerics, but my favorite class is the paladin. To put it with tongue very firmly planted against cheek, I like the "beat 'em up and then convert them" class rather than the other way around. The more I understand Mischa's views, the more my own sense of morality and religion is challenged. Oldtimers here probably remember some pretty heated disagreements between the two of us. This is an occassion though when I must come to his defense. People were talking about their favorite classes, and Mischa simply spoke his opinion, without knocking anyone else's. Mortus' response is an inflammatory attack on Mischa's personal beliefs, as well as ANYONE ON THIS LIST WHO HAS A STRONG PRO VIEW OF RELIGION!. Mortus, you are wrong to come onto an international list and directly attack beliefs in this way. This isn't the place for it. Since you have brought up some very disingenuous arguments, I shall proceed to tear them apart. This is difficult at best, since your attacks are so generic and poorly aimed. If you can get any more specific on your complaints here, I would love to hear it. However, future discussion should really be directed at my private email. > >>except that organised religions are usually very wealthy organizations, I shall answer each of these only through my own experience. I cannot speak for Buddhist or Hindu temples, as I am unfamiliar with them. The Protestant churches that I am aware of can hardly be called "wealthy". The Catholic Church maintains certain treasures for future use, but the priests and leaders are not wealthy. The Pope himself lives in a very tiny cubicle. You're not talking about people who can go out and spend their money on their own pleasures. The Church does serve the poor. If all the art works in the Vatican were sold, the proceeds would not significantly help the poor anywhere, and priceless art treasures would be lost. The Church is the guardian and preserver of the art kept in the Vatican, one of the greatest storehouses of it in the world. > >>and contain,and conceal members of very low moral fibre, No one could possibly know what you mean here. Are you referring to the practice of sanctuary? In many places, the Church was the only possibility some people had to receive fair treatment from the system. >>tend to gain converts in new lands through the use of torture and slaughter of "heretics", This is simply an untrue statement. Perhaps your torture and slaughter of heretics statement refers to the Spanish Inquisition, which was not about gaining converts in new lands. Christianity had long been established in Spain. The Spanish Inquisition was set up to detect persons who pretended to be Christians, while still practicing other religions. In a time of war against the dangerous Muslim Turkish empire, such people were potential traitors ("security risks" in modern language) and the Inquisition was designed to detect them. But only the Church can decide whether a person is or is not a real Christian. This was a legitimate objective, though these historical circumstances would not be duplicated today. The Crusades were just wars because they were a counterattack against Muslim aggressors, every bit as justified as the D-day invasion of Hitler's Europe, and for the same reasons. Torture was unfortunately sometimes used by the Inquisition, as it was by all other courts in its period (15th amd 16th centuries). The Spanish Inquisition was made the object of a massive propaganda campaign by the English government during its wars with Spain culminating in the Spanish Armada, which is why most people have heard nothing but bad things about it. Even so, this is not meant to excuse either historical occurrence. The Pope has rightly apologized on behalf of the Church for these acts. The Catholic Church has always taught that forced conversion is evil, though this teaching has not always been respected. But anyone who asserta that a particular conversion or conversions were forced certainly bears the burden of proof. Let such a person cite his sources and identify specifically the place and the time period he is talking about, and I will gladly refute him or explain the circumstances. >>suppress advancement of knowledge that doesn't suit their doctrine, You are probably taking the incident of Galileo claiming the Sun did not revolve around the Earth and expanding this to a general statement. There are many things the general public does not understand about this situation, as the emotional parts of the story are what our science teachers tend to emphasize. The theory that the earth revolves around the Sun was originally developed by Copernicus, a Polish Catholic monk, who remained in good standing with the Church. Galileo tried to argue that Copernicus' theory showed that some events reported in the Bible could not have happened, as for example the "sun standing still" to aid Joshua during his conquest of the Holy Land. For this the Church reproved him. The Church never officially declared the Copernican theory false, much as its enemies have tried to imply that it did. But Galileo was treated too harshly, and it was this that the Pope specifically apologized for several years ago (it was a specific apology, not part of his later general apology for some excesses by the Church). However, Galileo was, in fact, wrong in his theory. The Sun is not the center of the universe any more than the Earth is. > >>and very reluctantly change their ways when found out, You'd have to provide proof of this. Show me proof that a given practice was proven wrong and that the Church continued denying a proven fact for a significant time. See the problem with generalizations? > >>they also tend to deny everything until well after everybody else has > accepted it. Ah, you mean like "character doesn't matter"? After all, "everybody accepts this", right? So since everyone accepted slavery 100 years ago, did that make it right? Is it only wrong because the majority say its wrong? > >>so much for morals, wisdom , and a higher calling than greedy self > interests. Wow. So basically you have no respect for morals, wisdom, and higher calling other than greedy self interests. I think this basically sums up your view and sums up how much far one should take your statements. Its amazing to me that you could attempt to use these general attacks you've used to justify your own depraved lifestyle. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:44:36 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > It's rather disappointing plotwise, though - they could at least have added > an explanantion for Zandor to go there, like his father not wanting to support > his attack on Glantri and Zandor going there to put him in his place or > something, but it just doesn't :( > > well, it does say "for safety". Here's a semi-plasable scenario (even if I am picking words out of context). Assuming magic works in the vacinity of Aquas (some magic in the water?) because it takes a short time for magic to drain and unlike the first activation of the doomsday weapon it releases it's energy as it has it not waiting for the drain to complete. (possibly the uncontroled drain makes it disappear much slower) This I assume the magic drain is centered around the NoS while the distructive forces are centred around Alphatia giving the wizards on Alphatia some time to react/warn their away team. This is why the PC's encounter such a prolific magic drain (being so close to NoS) however if rad is sucked into the NoS or the old one turns up this is an event that could have more of an affect on immortal magic then mortal magic.(gold box describes immortals needing an extra dimention to mortals for their magic I think.) Immortal magic works because of Rad/the Old one. Mortal magic is drained to refuel the NoS of it's PP and allow it to repair itself so to speak after the fight with Ixion were it was drained and damaged. The destruction of the doomsday device has the additional affect of making the drain erratic and energy is released/uncontroled over Alphatia. Alphatia sinks. Zandor is in Aquas when this starts happening is with his father. The dome of an underwater city not being the safest place during an earthquake, and zandor being arrogant and self-protecting (he didn't go to Glantri, he sent others after all) teleports to a safer location in the city (a bunker of some sort) while his father saves the city and then gets hit by a falling building cause he can't prevent it from falling/avoid it when magic does fail (earthquakes traveling faster then magic drain) thus when magic does return and Zandor finds his father a dead hero while he fleed from his side (Zandor was therefore justified as he could be dead otherwise) but is slightly annoyed that he was there with his father and get's no thanks (not that he deserves it) but with few wittnesses of the actual spell casting he decides to "correct" the story "explaining" that HE cast the spells that saved the city before having the sence to teleport to safety while his father could do nothing(just a useless old man), and so he is the "hero"(all hail Zandor? The king is dead, long live the king so to speak). This seems to fit fairly well with canon but I leave the fate of the alphatian wizards up to you (some could have used their last teleport to get home while for others the spell fails because the magic drain is erratic and fluctuates during the first few hours. (maybe because it is both being sucked in by the NoS for it's own needs and being unleashed against Alphatia and so both going towards and away eratically) Chris. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:42:30 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. "MANY of its members perished during the (1st) week without magic..." > (WotI, pagg. 89-90): so they're no longer 1000 (if ever they were). > 2. "Terari and MANY Shiye-Lawr elves accept exile" (pag.90): so there are > MANY elves (max.10th level and not 36th) among the ranks of the Council, > which leaves open the possibility for many other lower-levelled mages to > take part in it. >(WotI, pag.90, says they use "Fire, Lightning and Death" I agree with the concept that 1000 36th level M-U's is a bit over the top. But the pre-requuisite to be on the council is to be of ultimate level. I would argue that How do you define that in a physical sence (and don't say no of spells because that would mean some kind of initiation rights that prove it and I don't like that idea). After a character reaches 10th level there is no change in title, just in abilities. Thus the only way that you can tell them apart is by their reputation and by any demonstrations of power. Now my arguement is that a 25th level mage could easily pass for a 36th level mage by the OD&D rules (at least in short stints). The same goes for clerics. I would argue that there are many members of the council that are under 36th level. Zandor even is only 30th level in PWA1 and this I would call precident. In AC 1000 the council is mostly 36th level M-U's (Magic users here applying to mages and clerics, but there are more mages). Say about 50-85% are 36th level and most are actually really old given the disproportional ages of M-U's. Thus in the first WWM many die and are never heard from again on the outer world(hidden in their towers) but could be restored in the HW. Thus the sligtly lower level wizards who have been trying to make a name for themselves suddenly become more important. There is probably 20-50% of the councils 36th level wizards left if no-one is rased and if they are they need potions of longevity to be any use (and thus these will be in short supply) So by the time the attack on Glantri is lanched the council is much weaker with about 250 36th level M-U's of which 1/3 -1/4 are clerics and don't have teleport (and have trouble going). And there is a proportion of the council that doesn't want to go. So in The end there is about 100 36th level mages backed up by about 500-900 mages of 25 level +. Thus the 1000 mages of the council (Well Zandors "council" at least) could still teleport to the skies over glantri and still be formidable. The reason that Glantri suffered only minor damage is that mage spells are designed to kill people not buildings. thus "Fire, Lightning and Death" is the effect not a "leveling the city and trampleing it into the ground" which would be the "EARTHSHAKER" atack. The human casualty is high (but given the plague comparitivly low) and thousands could die, but the structural damage is low. This is why there is little preceved damage, because there isn't any damage, just a lot of dead people that the nobles don't care a lot about. Lets see... "he's dead, oh no what ever will I do?" OR "I can't cast any spells, what ever will I do?" The second one seems like the more logical one (provided someone else deals with the body)......(someones bound to disagree with this) Any coments???? Chris. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:54:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:24:20 Evil Genius wrote: >>> Lack of magic would indeed hit Glantrians just as hard as the Alphatians. There would doubtlessly be much confusion as a consequence. And while I agree that saying 'the Alphatians wouldn't fly' is suspiciously pro-Alphatian (or anti-Glantrian), I think saying 'the loss of magic wouldn't cause confusion among the Glantrians' is just as pro-Glantrian (or anti-Alphatian, as the case may be), as in both cases, it seems rather convenient to me. << > >What confusion would it cause at the instant of "precipitation"? >The main confusion would be which Alphatian wizard to target first. It's, IMO, rather suspiciously convenient to think that Glantri would be thrown into an immediate tizzy and be unable to notice who their enemies are. Much of the "disorder" in Alphatia, for example, consisted of people blaming this or that Wizard for the failure of magic. But in Glantri in the aftermath of the bombardment, there's a convenient scapegoat for everything - the guys who just tried to kill you. > >To think that virtually all Glantrians would ignore them immediately and do something else is wishful thinking at best. > And you'll note that I agree with you on that point - I just said that your comments were harsh (and I resisted calling them sarcastic). >>> Harsh comments, but yes... See? >>> Still, I do believe you're forgetting about all those secretive organizations within Glantri (ELF? FAIRIE? Certainly the Followers of the Claymore would take advantage of the situation). << > >I think they would, but they also know who their enemies are in an order of priority. They'd certainly do what they could if an oportunity presented it, but faced with two immediate choices, I think it's stretching things a might far, to put it mildly, to assume they'd simply ignore the Alphatian wizards. > Not at first, no, but after a short while, it would be obvious that the Alphatians are just running for their lives. Those warriors wouldn't really need to hunt them down because, as you say yourself, angry mobs of common Glantrians would already do so and the Alphatian wizards having no magic would be rather helpless. Another point on this, those Alphatians who survive the fall - how exactly would they be clearly identified as Alphatians rather than Glantrians? Wizards look pretty similar and there are certainly wizards in Glantri who speak the Alphatian language... >But, lets ask those who think in a Glantrian mindset, perhaps, if they think that the Glantrians would just go about their business and perhaps invite the nearest Alphatian who just bombarded them if they wanted to join in looting a Prince's tower with them. > How long would you expect those Alphatians to remain alive? IMHO they would be dead within fifteen to twenty minutes or they would be on the run... Then the mob just goes home without taking any advantage of the confusion? >>> Actually it is quite possible to cast a number of spells under water, though there are indeed many that are totally useless there (fireballs just produce large amounts of bubbles, and casting lightning bolts is ill adviced for obvious reasons), at least according to the Complete Wizard's Handbook. << > >It is if you're breathing water - if you're drowning, though, it's kind of hard to incant. Yes, many spells *work* under water, but casting those with a verbal component would be hard unless you've already got Water Breathing in effect. > I'm not sure the rules support that interpretation. Besides, if that were the case, then that *would* be a good reason for wizards to have the spell memorized 'just in case', I think. > >>> Could still put those wizards in a lot of trouble however, because they'd be deep in the ocean and it would be rather strange for them to conviently have Breathe Water memorized...<< > >Yep, exactly. > Especially when you consider how far they would be below the water surface... they'd really have to hope to teleport 'high', though given that their recollection of their destination (which is what the success of teleportation is based on), that would actually make that result more likely when you think about it. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:06:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: WWM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:30:19 Evil Genius wrote: >> >>Well it still doesn't explain the fact that some Alphatian >>wizards use their >>magic in places like Aquas, or that Zandor teleports away. >> > >>> It's rather disappointing plotwise, though - they could at least have added an explanantion for Zandor to go there, << > >Actually, WotI does say: after Sundsvall is destroyed, Zandor makes his father's city his new HQ. See "Winter, Year 1,009: Thousand Wizards Convene." > Oh yes, you're right! It does say just that (p.89). Hmmm, PWA1 states pretty clearly that he teleports away as Alphatia sinks, though... Given that he would already have in Aquas he wouldn't have needed to. Maybe this is another manifestation of Zandor's madness - he teleports 'away' to Aquas and though magic has failed, his spell still works because he's already there! :) I guess Allston forgot about that one, but where canon contradicts itself, we can probably use what we like more, or what makes more sense (which is the same to me in this case). >>> That's all! There is no mention of them in canon ever again. (Or else, please point it out someone) << > >There isn't. > Ok. >>> (Zyndryl gets to save Aquas, Zandor gets to teleport away) << > >Well, again: Zandor doesn't have to Teleport to get to Aquas because he begins the Event there. > Yes, but for some peculiar reason, PWA1 still claims that on p.15. I guess we can just ignore that now, though. >As for Zyndryl, in theory the work he did to save Aquas might not have involved magic, but coordinating disaster relief &tc. > I'd like that because I'd prefer magic to fail, but PWA1, p.15, says very clearly that he casts "Wish, Force Field, and Stoneform enchantments, among others, in a heroic effort to save his city. Unfortunately, a collapsing tower killed him. His efforts succeeded, and many of Seashield's residents owe him their lives." Naturally this indicates pretty clearly that magic did work, and that the dome would have broken if not for Zyndryl's efforts. >But still, overall I think Herve's theory plugs a lot of holes, and makes the best sense. > I kind of like it too. I was just wondering why a DoD is better than a WWM. To me the best reason for having a DoD is to establish that regular event. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:45:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards >> And you'll note that I agree with you on that point - I just said that your comments were harsh (and I resisted calling them sarcastic). << Well, this was another one of those situations where matter-a-fact explaination didn't seem to make the point, so what was essentially a description of the thing illustrated it better. >> Not at first, no, but after a short while, it would be obvious that the Alphatians are just running for their lives. Those warriors wouldn't really need to hunt them down because, as you say yourself, angry mobs of common Glantrians would already do so and the Alphatian wizards having no magic would be rather helpless. << Whether they would need to would be different from whether they would want to, though. As you point out, there's always oportunity to do other stuff afterwards, when it will occur to them that they can. >> how exactly would they be clearly identified as Alphatians rather than Glantrians? Wizards look pretty similar and there are certainly wizards in Glantri who speak the Alphatian language...<< The Glantrian Wizards are the ones with Glantrian guards nearby, and also the ones that don't look like they just fell ten stories, and probably also the ones that aren't wearing Kiharas (Glantrian fashion being different from Alphatian fashion). >> How long would you expect those Alphatians to remain alive? IMHO they would be dead within fifteen to twenty minutes or they would be on the run... Then the mob just goes home without taking any advantage of the confusion? << Oh, well that's a different situation. What I was talking about was the "the Glantrians just ignore the Alphatians and go on a rampage against each other, so the Alphatians get away while that's going on" proposal. Sure, once they're done with the Alphatians, it won't take them too long, probably, to try and settle scores against each other. I *do* think it would take them a day, though (after all, everyone just went through the harrowing experience together, and would be physically and emotionally exausted from the day's butchery. So they'd go home to get a good night's rest, then while in bed they'd think "you know, you know what we should do. . .") - and the next day they'd go at it. >>It is if you're breathing water - if you're drowning, though, it's kind of hard to incant. Yes, many spells *work* under water, but casting those with a verbal component would be hard unless you've already got Water Breathing in effect. << >> I'm not sure the rules support that interpretation. Besides, if that were the case, then that *would* be a good reason for wizards to have the spell memorized 'just in case', I think. << Well, anything that makes it impossible to speak (and drowning, or trying to hold your breath to avoid drowning, would qualify. Anyone not sure about that should jump into a pool with no equipment, and try to speak under water. It really doesn't work.) And, as for "just in case my tower's under water when I get home, I'd better cast Water Breathing on myself beforehand, because it will be hard to incant it if I'm under water"? That doesn't make much sense, because again it tends to make the Alphatians act in hindsight with full knowlege of what is going to happen, which is different from having them act intelligently (I.E. it's intelligent to fly and avoid the mess of melee & "friendly fire" mishaps. It's having them act in hindsight to have them stay on the ground so that they happen to avoid messy falling damage). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii just a thought. If teleportation is based upon knowing your destination, most alphatian mages can't get to glantri, particually the ground near glantri at all, yet alone safely!!! This means that they have to teleport into the air OR most of them are probably died! Also the teleportation rule that you cannot teleport into mid air is based on a) not being able to avoid the risks, and b) for game balance not being able to kill people with a teleport. However the exception might be with flying things because it is natural to be in the air. Prehaps if you start on the ground you must end on the ground and if you start in the air you must end in the air? thoughts? Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:22:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:45:22 Evil Genius wrote: >>> And you'll note that I agree with you on that point - I just said that your comments were harsh (and I resisted calling them sarcastic). << > >Well, this was another one of those situations where matter-a-fact explaination didn't seem to make the point, so what was essentially a description of the thing illustrated it better. > Okay. >>> Not at first, no, but after a short while, it would be obvious that the Alphatians are just running for their lives. Those warriors wouldn't really need to hunt them down because, as you say yourself, angry mobs of common Glantrians would already do so and the Alphatian wizards having no magic would be rather helpless. << > >Whether they would need to would be different from whether they would want to, though. As you point out, there's always oportunity to do other stuff afterwards, when it will occur to them that they can. > They'd miss the opportunity? To me they'd seize it immediately because the Alphatians are already rather powerless without their magic. >>> how exactly would they be clearly identified as Alphatians rather than Glantrians? Wizards look pretty similar and there are certainly wizards in Glantri who speak the Alphatian language...<< > >The Glantrian Wizards are the ones with Glantrian guards nearby, > I don't think Glantrian wizards would go to the streets, as that could only bring attention to the fact that their magic has failed too. > and also the ones that don't look like they just fell ten stories, > Well, yes, but given that the city was just under magical bombardment, I'd say it'd be fairly difficult to see the difference between someone who fell and someone who was struck by Fireballs or Meteor Swarms. Besides, Glantrian wizards might have taken to the skies too to combat the Alphatians. > and probably also the ones that aren't wearing Kiharas (Glantrian fashion being different from Alphatian fashion). > Ah yes, but would the general population of Glantri be aware of this distinction? Truthfully, I doubt that even Glantrian wizards would know much about Alphatian fashion (because Alphatia is so far away). Besides, the Kihara would look pretty torn and wrinkled after the fall... >>> How long would you expect those Alphatians to remain alive? IMHO they would be dead within fifteen to twenty minutes or they would be on the run... Then the mob just goes home without taking any advantage of the confusion? << > >Oh, well that's a different situation. What I was talking about was the "the Glantrians just ignore the Alphatians and go on a rampage against each other, so the Alphatians get away while that's going on" proposal. Sure, once they're done with the Alphatians, it won't take them too long, probably, to try and settle scores against each other. I *do* think it would take them a day, though (after all, everyone just went through the harrowing experience together, and would be physically and emotionally exausted from the day's butchery. So they'd go home to get a good night's rest, then while in bed they'd think "you know, you know what we should do. . .") - and the next day they'd go at it. > We never saw anything to support that in canon, though, which seems a little too convenient to me. > >>>It is if you're breathing water - if you're drowning, though, it's kind of hard to incant. Yes, many spells *work* under water, but casting those with a verbal component would be hard unless you've already got Water Breathing in effect. << > >>> I'm not sure the rules support that interpretation. Besides, if that were the case, then that *would* be a good reason for wizards to have the spell memorized 'just in case', I think. << > >Well, anything that makes it impossible to speak (and drowning, or trying to hold your breath to avoid drowning, would qualify. Anyone not sure about that should jump into a pool with no equipment, and try to speak under water. It really doesn't work.) > I suppose it depends on whether on needs to speak the words carefully (quite difficult) or whether uttering them is sufficient (not nearly as difficult). I'll admit that I've always gone with the latter IMC. >And, as for "just in case my tower's under water when I get home, I'd better cast Water Breathing on myself beforehand, because it will be hard to incant it if I'm under water"? That doesn't make much sense, because again it tends to make the Alphatians act in hindsight with full knowlege of what is going to happen, which is different from having them act intelligently (I.E. it's intelligent to fly and avoid the mess of melee & "friendly fire" mishaps. It's having them act in hindsight to have them stay on the ground so that they happen to avoid messy falling damage). > It depends, I guess. If being underwater is really that dangerous, then I'd certainly consider it, particularly if I was playing a 36th-level wizard with lots and lots of spell slots to fill, and possibly even contigency spells as well... But maybe I'm being paranoid :) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:30:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:56:07 Chris Furneaux wrote: >just a thought. If teleportation is based upon knowing >your destination, most alphatian mages can't get to >glantri, particually the ground near glantri at all, >yet alone safely!!! > Teleport Without Error removes the problem, and besides you can also remove it by using scrying devices (Crystal Balls, the Magic Mirror spell) to 'study' the place you're teleporting to. >This means that they have to teleport into the air OR >most of them are probably died! > You cannot (deliberately) teleport into the air - you must teleport onto a solid surface (well, in 2e anyway) >Also the teleportation rule that you cannot teleport >into mid air is based on a) not being able to avoid >the risks, and b) for game balance not being able to >kill people with a teleport. However the exception >might be with flying things because it is natural to >be in the air. Prehaps if you start on the ground you >must end on the ground and if you start in the air you >must end in the air? > While there is a certain logic to that suggestion, I doubt many people would use it. Magic generally does allow itself to be applied in alternate situations where it should 'logically' work. For instance, you cannot use a Ring of Free Action to allow your wizard to wear heavy armor and still cast spells, though it would sound logical (in 2e. I know that 3e has more specific rules on this matter). - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:56:13 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 4:51:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM writes: > Now my arguement is that a 25th level mage could easily pass for a > 36th level mage by the OD&D rules (at least in short stints). The same goes > for clerics. I would argue that there are many members of the council that > are under 36th level. The most obvious way to distinguish a Wizard of 36th level or so from one of lesser level is by his ability to handle such ultimate magic as the Wish spell (in OD&D). One simple way to handle this would be to require anyone who wishes to join the 1000 Wizards to literally Wish himself into that position -- and anyone who is obviously unqualified (by being unable to cast any other 9th level spells, for example) would be ousted once caught. Of course, since the Wish spell is one of the spells that does not work in the Hollow World, the standards for joining the 1000 Wizards would necessarily have to be relaxed there. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:56:10 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 7:08:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > Another point on this, those Alphatians who survive the fall - how exactly > would they be clearly identified as Alphatians rather than Glantrians? > Wizards look pretty similar and there are certainly wizards in Glantri who > speak the Alphatian language... Some Alphatians could pass for Glantrians, while others could not. The "Common" Alphatians would have the least problem, as they look just like Flaems and the Alphatian half of the Aalbanese. "Pure" Alphatians would be a bit more conspicuous, as most of them who were native to Glantri were killed off by the meteor. For most Alphatians the biggest key would be to look as though they knew their way around (even if they don't), get rid of or hide any obviously non-Glantrian military insignia or clothing items, and watch how they talk (as there would certainly be differences in the accent, dialect, and slang expressions used by Glantrians and Alphatians). Once they are out of sight of the city defenders, passing for Glantrians would be a challenging but not completely impossible task. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:10:44 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: VotPA and Nagpas MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm working my way through the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles on the Dragon CD-ROM (whatta bargain!) and I just read the installment about the nagpas and the Vulture Penninsula. Is this the origin of ALL the nagpas, canonically speaking? If so, how the heck do they get to the Known World? Walk? Don't get me wrong, I love the article, but I've got to protect my GSoM nagpa librarian NPC ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:26:06 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 3:11:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: > Not to mention that while flying they'd be targets for Glantrian > wizards, but while walking they'd be targets for Glantrian wizards AND > Glantrian soldiers/peasants/other distractions. No they wouldn't -- it is an easy matter for the Alphatians drive away or wipe out anyone who is outside the city at the time of their arrival. Then they hide out in the fields (in a manner that should be familiar to anyone who has ever seen a war movie set during either of the World Wars) and bombard the city with their spells. The Glantrian Wizards defending the city would be limited to attacking them with area effect spells, as they would have a good degree of cover/concealment. Meanwhile, the far more numerous mundaners would be aiming their bows and other missile weapons in their general direction and taking substantial penalties to hit and/or miss chances (depending on rule set used). The main point is this: given the high level of magic used by both sides in any battle between Glantri and Alphatia, the tactics should and probably would shift away from the ancient/medieval paradigm in a more modern direction. Picture how paratroopers jumping into enemy territory in WW2 might have attacked a city and you should have a good idea of the tactics that the Alphatians are likely to have used in the final assault on Glantri City. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:46:25 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 9:10:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM writes: > Also the teleportation rule that you cannot teleport > into mid air is based on a) not being able to avoid > the risks, and b) for game balance not being able to > kill people with a teleport. However the exception > might be with flying things because it is natural to > be in the air. Prehaps if you start on the ground you > must end on the ground and if you start in the air you > must end in the air? > > thoughts? The whole reason for wanting to teleport to a mid-air destination (with appropriate flying magic already in place, of course) would be to mitigate the risk of teleporting "too low" in the 2E and earlier rules -- and of course the 2E rules explicitly forbid doing that. In 3E I would let that trick eliminate the first 1d10 "scramble damage" roll, but not subsequent rolls if any. The Alphatian expertise in Air magic is sufficient grounds for letting them be able to perform this trick, which is more showy than useful under 3E rules anyway. A Glantrian Wizard playing under 3E rules would probably take the practical approach of teleporting to a destination at ground level and soaking up any "scramble" damage rather than risking a lengthy and dangerous fall to avoid it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:25:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: VotPA and Nagpas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 10:30:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > I'm working my way through the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles on the > Dragon CD-ROM (whatta bargain!) and I just read the installment about the > nagpas and the Vulture Penninsula. > Is this the origin of ALL the nagpas, canonically speaking? If so, > how the heck do they get to the Known World? Walk? > Don't get me wrong, I love the article, but I've got to protect my > GSoM nagpa librarian NPC ... No problem -- Nagpas are among the races inhabiting the flying city of Serraine. We can assume that your Nagpa was dropped off somewhere in Darokin and (after hearing about the great magical knowledge that was accumulated in the GSoM in Glantri City) joined up with a north- bound Darokinian merchant caravan. After that caravan reached Glantri City he made his way to the GSoM and eventually became a librarian there. He will have a lot of trouble getting back to Varellya, but there is no problem in explaining how he ended up in Glantri City. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:25:38 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Alphatians oppressing Atruaghins (was WWM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 10:30:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hmusseau@YAHOO.COM writes: > a large number seems like a lot for the Atruaghins to revolt against later, > though. but if you want to ignore canon and have the Alphatians dominate the > Atruaghins IYC, that's indeed not diffucult to stage. In this case the "canon violation" proves to be rather minor. From existing precedents in WotI and MoA, it seems obvious that "quick wrap-ups" at the end should be given far less weight than material given earlier in those products, especially when later published material fails to support or even contradicts the wrap-up. In the case of the Alphatian conquest of the Atruaghin Plateau -- it is the last canonical mention of the Atruaghin Plateau whatsoever. Given the unlikelihood of most DM's staging an Atruaghin liberation adventure, it does seem most likely that the Alphatians should continue to dominate and exploit the Atruaghin natives indefinitely. However, any of you who are fans of "Zorro" or "Queen of Swords" should see the possibilities for swashbuckling adventure inherent in a campaign where Alphatian mercenary wizards are gleefully oppressing the natives of the plateau.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:25:41 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-24 10:30:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hmusseau@YAHOO.COM writes: > You can use that scenario if it suits you best. > One remark though: I doubt the wizards would go on foot, this is bad > strategy for wizards, especially without fighter support. They would be overrun > too easily. Keep in mind the analogy with modern weaponry that I mentioned -- few if any Glantrians would dare set foot outside the walls of Glantri City to challenge the Alphatian invaders, as area effect spells would serve quite nicely to clear away such opposition. However, the walls and magical defenses of Glantri City would slow down the Alphatian attackers enough to keep them bombarding the walls for quite some time. It is quite reasonable to suppose that they would have failed to breach the walls when the Doomsday Weapon effectively nullifies both their primary attacks and their return trip home. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:31:31 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Shadow Elves and things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael McConnell wrote: > > I think that the whole surface/Shadow elf thing is a pretty complex moral situation, and is a good example of the kind of thing I really like about Mystara. I always put such situations IMC:will the PCs kill she-kbolds and their babies after doing the usual H&S? Dozozensof Kobolds lying, the biiiiig pool of blood... in front of the Kobold children:? Just because MM said they were evil??? "Creative Campaigning" sys something about it: "Evil monsters you cannot kill", and the opposite: when you end up fighting a good-aligned person, might it be cos he is charmed, berserk... he was fooled etc. Not that "bluem-team against the red-team" stuff anymore. So...? > Without beating a dead (or shunned) horse, you have to admit that the whole Shadow Elf/ Israeli comparison does a make a bit of sense from and Old Testament religion point-of-view.] I will have - again - admit I do not understand the RW conflict NOR Mystara one... so I cannot - would better? - be quiet. But, yes, I would LOVE to learn! BTW, Shaham has sent me private - and I'm keeping it that way - a very interesting text, by himself, on the RW conflict. > And Vin, if you apologize any more I'm going to be very upset. :) Oops! Sorry. No, no...!!! ;-) > Am I the only person who's played a Shadow Elf pc? It's been a pretty interesting experience. The only real way I could justify his being on the surface (aside from working for the Serpent network, which was impossible since he started as 1st level) was to make him a Wanderer. Which is also fun, playing a character that old. We've used the 2nd ed aging stats (which is what the character was under at the time). The character can still lift a sword, but can't exactly do a whole lot of damage with it- but, to quote Carey Elwes, that's hardly common knowledge. (snip) > William Gibson, "Idoru" Thanks, man. And Shaham, and people. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:55:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: VotPA and Nagpas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2000 11:27:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kaviyd@AOL.COM writes: << Don't get me wrong, I love the article, but I've got to protect my > GSoM nagpa librarian NPC ... >> Don't forget that the Mystara Monster Compenduim gave them Spell casting levels, IIRC. So they could use teleportation, flight, etc to get around. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:39:36 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > The most obvious way to distinguish a Wizard of 36th level or so from = one > of lesser level is by his ability to handle such ultimate magic as the = Wish > spell (in OD&D). One simple way to handle this would be to require = anyone > who wishes to join the 1000 Wizards to literally Wish himself into = that > position -- and anyone who is obviously unqualified (by being unable = to > cast any other 9th level spells, for example) would be ousted once = caught. > Of course, since the Wish spell is one of the spells that does not = work in > the Hollow World, the standards for joining the 1000 Wizards would > necessarily have to be relaxed there. So anybody with a ring of wishes can join the Alphatian Council? ;) How about the poor Shiye-Lawr elves? As somebody pointed out they are on = the council, and they certainly can't cast wish (in OD&D). Ultimate = magic for them is Passwall. Perhaps they just need to breach the wall to = the council chambers? ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:45:43 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > Keep in mind the analogy with modern weaponry that I mentioned -- few > if any Glantrians would dare set foot outside the walls of Glantri = City to > challenge the Alphatian invaders, as area effect spells would serve = quite > nicely to clear away such opposition. However, the walls and magical > defenses of Glantri City would slow down the Alphatian attackers = enough > to keep them bombarding the walls for quite some time. It is quite > reasonable to suppose that they would have failed to breach the walls > when the Doomsday Weapon effectively nullifies both their primary > attacks and their return trip home. Like I said in another message, if the Alphatians are standing on the = ground and blasting at the walls of Glantri City, they're in the = suburbs, not the fields (as you stated elsewhere). In the suburbs there = will be lots of people around to get to them and likely soldiers or = 'police' forces as well. If they went to a less populated place (such as = the fields you mentioned), they'd be standing where there are no city = walls on the southern side of Glantri city. That leaves only whatever = magical defenses the Glantrians might have (none are mentioned in canon = material), and how long can it take for high-level wizards to break them = down? Perhaps Rad jumped the gun, when he first heard the Alphatians = were attacking? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:17:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Jacob Skytte wrote: > David Knott wrote: > > > The most obvious way to distinguish a Wizard of > 36th level or so from one > > of lesser level is by his ability to handle such > ultimate magic as the Wish > > spell (in OD&D). One simple way to handle this > would be to require anyone > > who wishes to join the 1000 Wizards to literally > Wish himself into that > > position -- and anyone who is obviously > unqualified (by being unable to > > cast any other 9th level spells, for example) > would be ousted once caught. > > Of course, since the Wish spell is one of the > spells that does not work in > > the Hollow World, the standards for joining the > 1000 Wizards would > > necessarily have to be relaxed there. > > So anybody with a ring of wishes can join the > Alphatian Council? ;) > How about the poor Shiye-Lawr elves? As somebody > pointed out they are on the council, and they > certainly can't cast wish (in OD&D). Ultimate magic > for them is Passwall. Perhaps they just need to > breach the wall to the council chambers? ;) > Isn't that how it works in Glantri? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:27:54 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: VotPA and Nagpas In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001024191044.007acd70@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > I'm working my way through the Voyage of the Princess Ark > articles on the Dragon CD-ROM (whatta bargain!) and I just read the > installment about the nagpas and the Vulture Penninsula. > Is this the origin of ALL the nagpas, canonically speaking? If > so, how the heck do they get to the Known World? Walk? > Don't get me wrong, I love the article, but I've got to > protect my GSoM nagpa librarian NPC ... I think this is a case of paralell creations, a phenomenon that is not unheard of on Mystara. Several of the races created on the Savage Coast for instance had been known to exist earlier. In some cases ofcourse, when a claim that a race was created at two different times in history, only one of the reports is correct and the other wrong. But at other times, races can be created several times, this can either be a result of coincidences, fate, or subtle or less subtle Immortal tamperings with evolution. In the case of the Nagpa, I believe that the Vulture Head Nagpa are a special race of Nagpa, separate from those who exist on Serraine and in the Known World. By the way, I like your idea of that nagpa librarian. I think I might steal that one :) H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:27:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Alphatians oppressing Atruaghins (was WWM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the case of the Alphatian conquest of the Atruaghin Plateau -- > it is the last canonical mention of the Atruaghin Plateau whatsoever. > Given the unlikelihood of most DM's staging an Atruaghin liberation > adventure, it does seem most likely that the Alphatians should > continue to dominate and exploit the Atruaghin natives indefinitely. > Wrong. It's mentioned in all three PWAs as well as Joshuan's, including the fact in PWA2 that the rebellion begins on Yarthmont 20th. In PWA3 it states that the clans destroyed them all in that same month. Joshuan's tells of Toney House traders who have found an underground route to replace the World Elevator. There's a whole lot of 'canon' which totally contradicts this erroneous opinion of yours, not that it matters if you want to run your campaign as above though. ;^) Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:29:00 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Fw: [MYSTARA] Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Daly ha scritto: > I think the manner in which Mischa and I agree is a very interesting view > into religion itself. [snipped other comments about Mortus' comments] I hope this debate will stop, now. I had already said so when Mortus wrote his message. Although I am very interested in these sort of debates, I think it is not the place to talk about them. The topic is flammable, unrelated to Mystara and has a strong risk of becoming a personal fight between Mortus and Jeff, so I hope you two could (if you want to) continue to discuss privately. I am not trying to stop anyone from the right of expressing their ideas, but I believe the matter risks to get out of hand, and that it is not related to the purpose of the list. However, given the fact that I am the administrator, I have no rights to ask you this, mine is only a suggestion. I hope you won't get offended by it. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:45:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Fw: [MYSTARA] Favourite class In-Reply-To: <39F6E01C.2F916038@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:29:00PM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:29:00PM +0200, Caroletti wrote: > purpose of the list. However, given the fact that I am the administrator, Those damn Thyatians and their bloodless coups! gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:01:51 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: NoS draining Entropy + Scopes of the MML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Paul George Dooley wrote: > Ah yes the famous "It still drains from Entropy" of Bruce's which > doesn't cover his totally non-canon Energy drain from Gaz 3, just moves it around a bit. Mind you it does set the precedent of "screw 'canon'" rather firmly in Mystara. ;^) ************************** Well, ok: every honest person admits that there are inconsistencies in WotI: however, one could just cut that out from his/her own campaign, but the logical aim of the MML (or, better, of the PWA team) is to amend those inconsistencies with the minimum damage required to the original sources (call them "canon" if you like), including WotI. For instance, I personally didn't like at all the Entropy drain fact in the beginning - I already stated in a previous mail of mine that I find it rather "childish" for Mystara, a mature world with no mere Law/Evil axis. But since it can produce interesting developments (I imagined Etienne regaining immortality by the NoS in the sphere of Entropy, unadvertently; Thanathos ordering him to destroy the Nucleus; Benekander and Ka - maybe Ixion too! - opposing him and trying to keep the statu quo; Brannart McGregor trying his best to gain immortality before Rad tampers with the Nucleus again; the PCs involved in all this...), well: I decided that I prefer to try to amend WotI's inconsistencies rather than simply disregard them. Thus, my proposal of a 2nd WWM according to canon, but immediately truncated by the Wrap-Up event (Rad sucked into the Nucleus). And I will add that the Nucleus now draining Entropy may have been caused either by the Old One's will (which clearly has absolute power to go beyond Immortal rules of any kind) as is suggested by WotI itself, or by the NoS reprogramming system, which is a device alien enough to Mystara and to which Mystaran mortal/immortal rules do not necessarily apply in a strict way. Another question: eventually, what's the purpose of this kind of "long" discussions? Is it just to give everyone some suggestions for each one's private campaigns, or is it also to try to discuss and possibly fix/amend inconsistencies in canon, creating FAQs that will hopefully one day be taken into account by WotC people when reviving Mystara? Very quietly and friendly, what's your opinion about that, Mystarans? Thank you. Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:59:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: NoS draining Entropy + Scopes of the MML In-Reply-To: ; from kaftal@HOTMAIL.COM on Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:01:51PM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:01:51PM +0200, Federico Kaftal wrote: > > Well, ok: every honest person admits that there are inconsistencies in WotI: > however, one could just cut that out from his/her own campaign, but the > logical aim of the MML (or, better, of the PWA team) is to amend those > inconsistencies with the minimum damage required to the original sources > (call them "canon" if you like), including WotI. It is a logical aim, although I don't like the idea myself. I *like* that canon is full of inconsistancies, since it makes canon-wars less meaningfull. I think. Or something. > Another question: eventually, what's the purpose of this kind of "long" > discussions? Is it just to give everyone some suggestions for each one's > private campaigns, or is it also to try to discuss and possibly fix/amend > inconsistencies in canon, creating FAQs that will hopefully one day be taken > into account by WotC people when reviving Mystara? Both I think, certainly it's useful for people who are running through some of these things to get a heads up about potential problems... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:12:05 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Fate of the Thousand Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > They'd miss the opportunity? To me they'd seize it immediately because the Alphatians are already rather powerless without their magic. > Sounds to me like they'd seize the opportunity to beat up the powerless Alphatians. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:35:11 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Fw: [MYSTARA] Favourite class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon McCormick ha scritto: > On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:29:00PM +0200, Caroletti wrote: > > > purpose of the list. However, given the fact that I am the administrator, > > Those damn Thyatians and their bloodless coups! > > gordon Uh...the eminent Hattian psychiatrist Sigmund Freud would tell you that the lapsus was a clear sign of a world (would-be) conqueror's thoughts. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort now Port Lucinius, Thyatis...tomorrow, Mystara! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:42:33 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Traladara Gazetteer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jennifer Guerra wants everybody on the list to know that she has = uploaded a Traladara mini-Gazetteer (as well as some other stuff) to her = website at http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ If you're interested go check it out and if you feel like it give her = some feedback on valerya@webtv.net Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:40:46 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Question about the VotPA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don't have DotA, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA Mystara wrote: >> Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don'thave DotE, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? << The Alphatians have plenty of slaves, and their conditions aren't so hot. Here's the section on the Slave class in Alphatia: "Slave: A slave is someone who has no magical ability (magic-user or clerical); owns no propetyy, and belongs to another person, one of Freeman status or higher. From the age of 12, all slaves are listed with a government registry office, and the owner lists each slave with his or her monetary value; this may be changed from year to year as the slave's percvieved worth varies. A person of Aristocrat status or higher may legally kill any slave, for any reason or none; there is no investigation or censure. But he must comphensate the owner the money-value listed for the slave. (It would seem that a noble wishing to protect his slaves could list each with a gross gp value - say, 50,000gp each. But the slave-owners pay annual taxes based on the declared value of the slave, so a more realistic declaration of value is usually used.) Slaves may not carry weapons; it is a required death penalty for a slave to touch a weapon for any reason other than defense of his owner. The children ! ! of slaves are slaves. Slaves may be freed only by their owners. The slave's life is usually one of heartbreaking, backbreaking labor from youth until death; few are permitted to learn to read; few ever hold a coin in their lives; runaways are executed, by Imperial Law. Obviously, player-characters should not be slaves." (DotE, Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.16) Now, we're probably going to be inundated by mails saying how an Alphatian slave's life isn't so bad, how we shouldn't treat this seriously, etc. But the above is what DotE says on the subject. If one thinks it sounds nice, then interpret it like that. If one thinks that sounds pretty aweful even as a slave's life goes, then interpret it that way. But that's what it says. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 18:14 10/25/2000 -0400, Evil Genius wrote: >>> Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don'thave DotE, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? << >The Alphatians have plenty of slaves, and their conditions aren't so hot. Sounds remarkably in-synch to the worst slave-holding regions of the United States, pre-Civil War. So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:29:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: NoS draining Entropy + Scopes of the MML MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Federico Kaftal wrote: > Another question: eventually, what's the purpose of this kind of = "long" > discussions? Is it just to give everyone some suggestions for each = one's > private campaigns, or is it also to try to discuss and possibly = fix/amend > inconsistencies in canon, creating FAQs that will hopefully one day be = taken > into account by WotC people when reviving Mystara? Hopefully everybody gets to share other people's perspectives and gain = something from them. I doubt that anybody keeps the mails grouped = somewhere as an 'FAQ on this particular subject' (unless you want to be = the keeper of such material?). I guess that when subjects are brought up = that a lot of people have opinions on, they tend to get long and winded. = Sometimes I think that they merely keep going because everybody wants = the last word, since there usually comes a time when people (including = myself, I'm not better at this than others) start repeating their = arguments... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was >> So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? << Well, we could go into how the VotPA tended to misportray the Alphatians so they could be seen as heroes - basically Haldemaar = Kirk, and the whole thing is Mystara Trek (The First Generation; with the HKs = Heldannic Klingons), but what would be the point? VotPA certainly had its virtues (and those, IMO, far outweighed its flaws for the most part), revealing lots of info and introducing plenty of interesting places, but it was the thing that introduced the "every-Alphatian-is-an-enlightened-exception-to-the-general-Alphatian-society" thing, wherupon people came to see Haldemaar, the rest of the Princess Arc crew, and later additions such as Vern and Broderick as "the norm". But I really do recomend picking up a copy of DotE if you can, or borrowing a friend - it's hard, IMO, to read that and then come to the conclusion that the Alphatian Empire is an enlightened United Federation of Kingdoms (Planets). But for the purpose of the articles & stories, the crew of the Princess Enterprise had to be. . .well, like the crew of the Starship Enterprise - one had to want to root for them, and their opponents were seen not only as opponents but as bad guys. The problem came when that portrayal got extrapolated from the VotPA to Alphatia as a whole. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or the worst slave holding regions of anywhere else. There's non reason to single anyone out. ----- Original Message ----- From: Beau To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 6:18 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") > At 18:14 10/25/2000 -0400, Evil Genius wrote: > > >>> Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I > don'thave DotE, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? << > > >The Alphatians have plenty of slaves, and their conditions aren't so hot. > > Sounds remarkably in-synch to the worst slave-holding regions of the > United States, pre-Civil War. > So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's > against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:39:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001025144046.007b29e0@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:40 PM 10/25/00 -0700, you wrote: > Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don't >have DotA, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? As others have answered, yes they do, but it's possible that Haldemar grew up in a region that looked down upon slaves. His home was on one of the estates in Floating Ar, so it probably had minimal contact with the lands below, and may not have kept slaves. There are any number of different kingdoms in Alphatia, as well, most of whom probably have different views on things- in particular, the northern realms, which are so distant from the capital of the Empire may have different takes. What little development on the nation we've done so far as a group and individuals here seems to lend itself well to such a point of view. As you yourself pointed out, there may be comparisons to American history, with northern Alphatians holding a different opinion of slave owners than the old school southern Alphatians. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I think the answer is quite simple. Arrogance is a part of Alphatian character. It stands to reason that an Alphatian would look upon another country's practices as evil and not see any hypocrisy whatsoever. I have no doubt that an Alphatian would condemn Thyatian slavery in a heartbeat while calmly sipping a rare drink only gained by forcing slaves to extract a precious juice from man-eating plants with an overall fatality rate of 9 out of 10 slaves. ----- Original Message ----- From: Evil Genius To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Question about the VotPA > Mystara wrote: > >> Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don'thave DotE, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? << > > The Alphatians have plenty of slaves, and their conditions aren't so hot. we're probably going to be inundated by mails saying how an Alphatian slave's life isn't so bad, how we shouldn't treat this seriously, etc. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:48:25 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") In-Reply-To: <000b01c03edd$6abadea0$6232140a@friendly> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:43 10/25/2000 -0400, Jeff Daly wrote: >Or the worst slave holding regions of anywhere else. There's non reason to >single anyone out. My family is from the South. I'm not trying to bash American slaveholders particularly, but I mentioned the South for two reasons: 1) the writers of DotE were most likely most familiar with American slavery and 2) American slavery was not identical to slavery as it's practiced elsewhere. I think there actually are more harsh slavery practices in world history, and more lenient/humane ones. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:25:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA >> As others have answered, yes they do, but it's possible that Haldemar grew up in a region that looked down upon slaves. << Yes, that's true literally, as you said: >> His home was on one of the estates in Floating Ar, so it probably had minimal contact with the lands below, and may not have kept slaves. << Possibly he never would have seen Alphatian slavery close up, because in Floating Ar he might have lived isolated from it - with him on his floating island (where the Aristocrats live), little contact with the lands below (where the commoners of Ar live), its possible that he could have been blithely unaware while still benifiting from it; kind of like an Alphatian Ashley Wilkes character, who never really gave it much thought in his own lands but is shocked by it when he finally does come face to face with it. . .in foreign lands during his explorations. Meanwhile, back at home, tha Haaken estate might benifit from the products of slavery and servitude (Servant class in Alphatia not being that great, either, though definately a step up from being a slave). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:46:31 -0400 Jeff Daly writes: > I have no doubt that an Alphatian would condemn Thyatian slavery in a > heartbeat while calmly sipping a rare drink only gained by forcing > slaves to extract a precious juice from man-eating plants with an overall > fatality rate of 9 out of 10 slaves. That's so... so... Alphatian. I'm going to have to use that scene if I ever get a campaign started up again. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:25:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in all things. ----- Original Message ----- From: Beau To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:48 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") > At 19:43 10/25/2000 -0400, Jeff Daly wrote: > >Or the worst slave holding regions of anywhere else. There's non reason to > >single anyone out. > > My family is from the South. I'm not trying to bash American slaveholders > particularly, but I mentioned the South for two reasons: 1) the writers of > DotE were most likely most familiar with American slavery and 2) American > slavery was not identical to slavery as it's practiced elsewhere. > I think there actually are more harsh slavery practices in world history, > and more lenient/humane ones. > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:53:37 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaun Muncy Subject: New Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings All. I'm planning to try DMing a Mystara Online-Game under 3rd Edition rules, however my knowledge of Mystara is limited and I need a few things before I can begin: 1) PC's: All PCs should be students of the glorious Glantri School of magic, or allies of said students. 2) I need some information on the Rakasta of Mystara. 3) What ancient cultures would have had strongholds near/around the Isles of Dread? Particularly ones with prominent Duelists. 4) Would anyone be interested in being a 'World consultant'/Story Critic? The Chronicle will be pre-WotI, and will center around an archeological expedition from Noble Glantri. Times and dates are TBA. I am looking into WebRPG or a chat room to hold the game. "Chaos rules, so I'm in charge." - Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Ruler of the Lost City; Kobold Tactician; Keeper of the Mystic Sock. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:21:07 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:46:31 -0400 Jeff Daly >writes: > > I have no doubt that an Alphatian would condemn Thyatian slavery in a > > heartbeat while calmly sipping a rare drink only gained by forcing > > slaves to extract a precious juice from man-eating plants with an >overall > > fatality rate of 9 out of 10 slaves. > >That's so... so... Alphatian. I'm going to have to use that scene if I >ever get a campaign started up again. > > > Aaron Nowack Alphatia supports slavery but this does not mean that every single person in the whole nation supports it. Haldemar may have had contact with slavery and even so he does not have to like it. In fact he is portraited as a quite heroic caracter (an un-Alphatian one in that). Darkblood _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 04:35:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Haldemaar, Alphatia and Slaves (was Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:14:50 Evil Genius wrote: >>> So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? << > >Well, we could go into how the VotPA tended to misportray the Alphatians so they could be seen as heroes - basically Haldemaar = Kirk, and the whole thing is Mystara Trek (The First Generation; with the HKs = Heldannic Klingons), but what would be the point? > Never saw Haldemar as Kirk myself, but I do see your point (I just can't imagine him having a bad enough laugh at the end of each 'episode'...) >VotPA certainly had its virtues (and those, IMO, far outweighed its flaws for the most part), revealing lots of info and introducing plenty of interesting places, but it was the thing that introduced the "every-Alphatian-is-an-enlightened-exception-to-the-general-Alphatian-society" thing, wherupon people came to see Haldemaar, the rest of the Princess Arc crew, and later additions such as Vern and Broderick as "the norm". But I really do recomend picking up a copy of DotE if you can, or borrowing a friend - it's hard, IMO, to read that and then come to the conclusion that the Alphatian Empire is an enlightened United Federation of Kingdoms (Planets). > Agreed, but I think that would be a little difficult in VotPA anyway - after the Princess Ark and it's crew had been missing for decades, what's the first thing they were told when they returned? They could either leave immediately and continue their exploration or they could all be put to death! Not very Starfleet! Sure, Eriadna had reasons for giving those orders, but she didn't tell Haldemar of them and she didn't let the crew's misery stop her, did she? In fact, when some tried to escape, they were shot down immediately! Besides, in one of the earlier episodes, Haldemar is forced (by Synn IIRC) to choose whether Ramissur or Tarias will be killed... Though they both survive, Haldemar chooses Tarias because he is of noble blood in Arogansa and so Haldemar would be in big trouble if anything happened to him. Naturally, this earns Haldemar the hatred of Ramissur from that point on (though Haldemar does not seem to become aware of it). Neither of these episodes speak well of affairs in Alphatia. >But for the purpose of the articles & stories, the crew of the Princess Enterprise had to be. . .well, like the crew of the Starship Enterprise - one had to want to root for them, and their opponents were seen not only as opponents but as bad guys. The problem came when that portrayal got extrapolated from the VotPA to Alphatia as a whole. . . > True. And those HKs were very firmly put into the position of the villains. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 04:45:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Haldemar's history (was: Question about the VotPA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:25:18 Evil Genius wrote: >>> As others have answered, yes they do, but it's possible that Haldemar grew up in a region that looked down upon slaves. << > >Yes, that's true literally, as you said: > >>> His home was on one of the estates in Floating Ar, so it probably had minimal contact with the lands below, and may not have kept slaves. << > >Possibly he never would have seen Alphatian slavery close up, because in Floating Ar he might have lived isolated from it - with him on his floating island (where the Aristocrats live), little contact with the lands below (where the commoners of Ar live), its possible that he could have been blithely unaware while still benifiting from it; kind of like an Alphatian Ashley Wilkes character, who never really gave it much thought in his own lands but is shocked by it when he finally does come face to face with it. . .in foreign lands during his explorations. >Meanwhile, back at home, tha Haaken estate might benifit from the products of slavery and servitude (Servant class in Alphatia not being that great, either, though definately a step up from being a slave). > This could be the case, but I would not think so given the description of Haldemar's history in CoS (Heroes of the Princess Ark, p.78), which states that he was cast out of his home when he was a teenager after he lost a good portion of the family fortune on some bad investments (he was their accountant at the time). He then worked on a flying casino, but eventually sold it to gain command of a flying ship n the navy, and during the 1959 AY war with Thyatis (the Spike Assault) he performed so well (though that might not have been difficult given how the Alphatians made a blunder of that affair in the end!) that he was eventually promoted to Admiral. Doesn't sound much of a protected life far away from the harsh realities of Alphatian society to me. However, if Haldemar doesn't like slavery, then we don't need some excuse for it - he just doesn't like slavery! Sure, we could give him a reason if we needed to - perhaps he saw a slave-girl he was quite taken with brutally murdered by a wizard, who then just paid for the 'damages' to the owner, for example... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:56:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatians oppressing Atruaghins (was WWM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-25 7:46:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: > Wrong. It's mentioned in all three PWAs as well as Joshuan's, including > the fact in PWA2 that the rebellion begins on Yarthmont 20th. In PWA3 it > states that the clans destroyed them all in that same month. Joshuan's > tells of Toney House traders who have found an underground route to replace > the World Elevator. There's a whole lot of 'canon' which totally contradicts > this erroneous opinion of yours, not that it matters if you want to run your > campaign as above though. ;^) That's what I get for taking the first PWA at its word -- according to it, no further events in that struggle would be described, so it struck me as being one of those quick wrap-up things. As usual, they did not stick to the original plan but went ahead and gave more events in the following PWAs -- and strangely enough they stuck to the original script and did not deviate from it. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my error. Since no more than five powerful Alphatian Wizards were involved in those events, the bulk of them must have gone elsewhere. I am now leaning towards the suggestion that they indeed managed to get home in time to drown with their families and then wake up in the Hollow World. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:26:05 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-25 6:05:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I don't > have DotA, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? So Haldemar is a hypocrite -- what's the problem? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:26:04 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: New Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-25 11:08:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ArkonDLoC@AOL.COM writes: > I'm planning to try DMing a Mystara Online-Game under 3rd Edition rules, > however my knowledge of Mystara is limited and I need a few things before I > can begin: > > 1) PC's: All PCs should be students of the glorious Glantri School of magic, > or allies of said students. That is one of my favorite settings.... > 2) I need some information on the Rakasta of Mystara. Dragon #247 is the best resource. If you don't have access to that, ask me what you need -- I suspect that you will need only a small fraction of the information available given the clues you have left about your game. > 3) What ancient cultures would have had strongholds near/around the Isles of > Dread? Particularly ones with prominent Duelists. I honestly can't think of any. That region is pretty much left open IIRC. > 4) Would anyone be interested in being a 'World consultant'/Story Critic? I'll volunteer if it does not require a major time commitment. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:53:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I guess that Haldemar's point of view would not be too far away from some stuff of Alphatian ideology: social status is not marked by birth, but by magic and skill: if a servant or slave shows magical ability, he becomes an Aristocrat; if a slave manages to earn enough savings, he can buy his freedom and become a servant. IIRC, slavery for life only features in Alphatia as a criminal sentence. All the slavery cultures that Haldemar encounters in his travels are based on things like birth or force, something that is alien to Alphatian *ideology* even if they have gone into it in practice more than a few times... Alphatian slavery does not seem to match any RW period or place, IMO, as it is based on a magical empire. Thyatian and Milenian slaveries are closer to things like RW Roman Empire slavery. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 02:08:13 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-25 5:08:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > So anybody with a ring of wishes can join the Alphatian Council? ;) He could join -- but his subsequent inability to cast any other 9th level spells would lead to his expulsion. > How about the poor Shiye-Lawr elves? As somebody pointed out they are on the > council, and they certainly can't cast wish (in OD&D). Ultimate magic for > them is Passwall. Perhaps they just need to breach the wall to the council > chambers? ;) I would assume that their ultimate magic is on a par with what is presented in Gaz 5 -- so their most powerful Wizards are Treekeepers who can indeed cast Wish spells. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 02:08:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-25 5:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > Like I said in another message, if the Alphatians are standing on the ground > and blasting at the walls of Glantri City, they're in the suburbs, not the > fields (as you stated elsewhere). In the suburbs there will be lots of people > around to get to them and likely soldiers or 'police' forces as well. If they > went to a less populated place (such as the fields you mentioned), they'd be > standing where there are no city walls on the southern side of Glantri city What suburbs? Every map of Glantri City I have seen has it surrounded by farms. With no city walls or high level Wizards to defend any patrols outside the city, the Alphatian invaders could deal with them quite quickly. As for the southern city wall -- it does exist in winter, when the Alphatians attacked. Of course, since it is made of ice, the Alphatians would probably succeed in eliminating it before the Doomsday weapon is activated -- but they still would have to work at it a bit. Nevertheless, it would be most logical for the Alphatians to attack Glantri City from the south. But given the recent revelation that my idea of the Alphatian Wizards going to the Atruaghin Plateau to collectively oppress the natives in large numbers has been shown not to work according to canon along with the fact that there are not too many other places for them to go in the outer world, I have yet another alternate theory. The second WWM requires that magic fail in the vicinity of Glantri City at some point subsequent to the destruction of Alphatia, when the player characters would be trying to recover from the climactic battles that they just witnessed and/or participated in. So I would now suggest that the destruction of Alphatia was a gradual process that took several hours to complete. When it was initiated, some people in Alphatia managed to send a message to the 1000 Wizards informing them of the calamity. Once they got the message, they abandoned their assault on Glantri City and teleported back home, where they began to do all that they could to save their homes from destruction. They failed, of course, and for the most part drowned as Alphatia sank into the sea -- and were subsequently revived when Alphatia was reconstructed in the Hollow World. At that point they supported everything that Eriadna did and thus merited no special mention until years later. The small few who survived the sinking of Alphatia in Aquas, Floating Ar, or Bellissaria were too few to make a difference in the subsequent history revealed in the PWAs. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:33:15 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: VotPA vs CoM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed What's exactly present in VotPA and missing in CoM? Or what's different (if anything) between the two versions? Try to explain it to somebody who don't own any of the two, and wants to decide whether to look for one or the other. Thank you, Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:48:50 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA Andr�s_Piquer_Otero wrote: >> if a slave manages to earn enough savings, he can buy his freedom and become a servant.<< Nope; that's Thyatis. Slaves in Alphatia can't earn or keep money, and can only be freed by their master (in Thyatis the Empire can free slaves if they're maltreated; and slaves owned by a brutal master sometimes starve themselves until they are so freed per the Player's Guide to Thyatis. In Alphatia, starve all you want, only your master can free you). >> IIRC, slavery for life only features in Alphatia as a criminal sentence. << Again, nope. Conquered people are frequently enslaved (see below for just one example of that), slaves can be bought and sold, slavery is for life, and the children of slaves are slaves unless they show magical aptitude (not common). Slavery exclusively as a result of a criminal sentance is the Ylari custom (and even then, in Ylaruam they're more indentured servants than slaves). In Alphatia a criminal sentance can reduce one to slavery, but that's not the only way to become one. >> All the slavery cultures that Haldemar encounters in his travels are based on things like birth or force, something that is alien to Alphatian *ideology* even if they have gone into it in practice more than a few times... << Again, not true; Alphatian *ideology* sees all non-Alphatians as fit for only slavery or servitude, and all non-spellcasters as little better. And they certainly use birth (persons born to a slave are not free unless they show magical talent - they are slaves as well) and force (how do you think they got slaves? A call for vollunteers?) One of the first things they did upon arriving in Mystara after Landfall, per DotE's Player's Guide to Alphatia, the History of Alphatia, "The New Alphatian Empire" section (p.5) says: "(Oh, there were some human settlements - quickly conquered, their populations absorbed into the new Empire as slaves)." So the Alphatians get their slaves no different than how other people do - they conquer them and enslave them, or buy them from slavers. After all, the Jennites of Esterhold weren't convicted of any crime - except not being Alphatians and having something the Alphatians wanted (mineral-rich lands loaded with gems and valuable metals). >> Thyatian and Milenian slaveries are closer to things like RW Roman Empire slavery. << Right; Thyatian and Milenian slaves can own some small personal property (unlike Alphatian slaves) that they can call their own, have some legal protections (unlike Alphatian slaves), and even buy their freedom (unlike Alphatian slaves), and might even be learned as some Greek and Roman slaves were (few Alphatian slaves are permitted to learn to read). This isn't to say that the life of a Thyatian or Milenian slave is a good life (not by a long shot), but one thing you are right on is that slavery in Thyatis and Milenia is different from slavery in Alphatia. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:16:05 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Re: Scopes of the MML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Federico Kaftal wrote: >Another question: eventually, what's the purpose of this kind of "long" >discussions? Is it just to give everyone some suggestions for each one's >private campaigns, or is it also to try to discuss and possibly fix/amend >inconsistencies in canon, creating FAQs that will hopefully one day be taken >into account by WotC people when reviving Mystara? Jacob Skytte replied: Hopefully everybody gets to share other people's perspectives and gain something from them. I doubt that anybody keeps the mails grouped somewhere as an 'FAQ on this particular subject' (unless you want to be the keeper of such material?). I guess that when subjects are brought up that a lot of people have opinions on, they tend to get long and winded. Sometimes I think that they merely keep going because everybody wants the last word, since there usually comes a time when people (including myself, I'm not better at this than others) start repeating their arguments... *********************** I don't have a personal web page and I would also prefer to store information in a single, more visible place: mine was a suggestion for Shawn: would you add a summarized version of this, as well as other, discussions in your 'misc articles from MML' section (I can't rememberits name, now)? Maybe also a link in the Timeline/Almanac section would do. I think you can find a suitable place. Will you? Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:12:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: New Game In-Reply-To: <55.c5e97d6.27290c5c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, David Knott wrote: > > 3) What ancient cultures would have had strongholds near/around the Isles > of > > Dread? Particularly ones with prominent Duelists. > > I honestly can't think of any. That region is pretty much left open IIRC. Possibly some distant branch of Milenians? The Milenians aren't actually known for their Duelists, but the Isle of Dread branch might have developed it through the centuries.. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:41:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Scopes of the MML In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > I don't have a personal web page and I would also prefer to store > information in a single, more visible place: mine was a suggestion for > Shawn: would you add a summarized version of this, as well as other, > discussions in your 'misc articles from MML' section (I can't rememberits > name, now)? Maybe also a link in the Timeline/Almanac section would do. I > think you can find a suitable place. Will you? I cant speak for Shawn, but I'm sure he is a pretty busy guy. If someone else were to make the summary of the discussion and send it to Shawn, im sure it would have a much greater chance of getting onto his website :) H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:47:12 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: VotPA vs CoM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Federico Kaftal wrote: > What's exactly present in VotPA and missing in CoM? > Or what's different (if anything) between the two versions? In CoM, the first episodes of the VotPA are summarized only. Also, some of the monster descriptions such as the Cestian Gobbler is not present in CoM. VotPA had several issues devoted to letters in which other information was presented by Bruce Heard, which was not reprinted in CoM. Also, IMO some of the original VotPA had better artwork than CoM, but thats just a matter of personal taste. CoM OTOH has several really nice maps of excellent quality. If you are a true mystara fan and get the opportunity, get your hands on both. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:57:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: WWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-10-25 5:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: >=20 > > Like I said in another message, if the Alphatians are standing on = the ground > > and blasting at the walls of Glantri City, they're in the suburbs, = not the > > fields (as you stated elsewhere). In the suburbs there will be lots = of people > > around to get to them and likely soldiers or 'police' forces as = well. If they > > went to a less populated place (such as the fields you mentioned), = they'd be > > standing where there are no city walls on the southern side of = Glantri city >=20 > What suburbs? Every map of Glantri City I have seen has it surrounded > by farms. With no city walls or high level Wizards to defend any = patrols > outside the city, the Alphatian invaders could deal with them quite > quickly. As for the southern city wall -- it does exist in winter, = when > the Alphatians attacked. Of course, since it is made of ice, the > Alphatians would probably succeed in eliminating it before the = Doomsday > weapon is activated -- but they still would have to work at it a bit. > Nevertheless, it would be most logical for the Alphatians to attack > Glantri City from the south. I've stopped trying to refute your 'attcking from the ground' ideas, I'm = just trying to understand some things here. On the map in GAZ3 (or the = one in G:KoM), north of Glantri City, you see some color-coded areas = with roads in them. Sure, those could be taken as a lot of fields, but = considering that they're labelled 'North-East Suburbs', 'North-West = Suburbs', and 'Riverside Suburbs' that's probably just what they are. = Also in the text on p.38 we are told that the city has suburbs, and that = to the south of the city there are farms. So what's to the north? The = suburbs. In G:KoM p.69, we are told that '...it [Glantri City] also has = expanded beyond its protective walls. These "outside" areas, almost = purely residential...'. What are these? Suburbs. As for the southern walls, I admit that I missed the walls of ice. So = they do have some walls during the winter (though they can easily be = dispelled, as it says in the same paragraph). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:28:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: VotPA vs CoM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Federico Kaftal wrote: > What's exactly present in VotPA and missing in CoM? > Or what's different (if anything) between the two versions? >=20 > Try to explain it to somebody who don't own any of the two, and wants = to > decide whether to look for one or the other. > Thank you, The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) was originally an attempt at = exploring the world of Mystara outside of 'the Known World'. The Ark set = off in AC965, travelled south along the north-eastern coasts of Davania, = and the crew had a lot of interesting adventures (including a short trip = to the Hollow World). These adventures were related as a log, mostly = written by the captain, Haldemaar, but sometimes by other crew members. = After the log every article contained some background (DM) material on = the areas featured in the present article as well as some other tidbits = of information. After the Ark had travelled for some time there was a = time-travelling disaster and the Ark was brought to the present (AC1000) = and returned home to Alphatia. After some more misadventures, it = travelled westwards, along the southern coasts of the continent of Brun. The articles continued in the established style for quite a while, = opening up the savage coast, and discovering the Red Steel, and the = Orc's Head Peninsula, among other adventures. Eventually all good things = come to an end, and the Princess Ark disappeared from Dragon Magazine. = It had kept going from january 1990 till december 1992, and was replaced = with the Known World Grimoire, which among other articles, also included = some more expansions on what lay westwards of the Savage Coast. In 1993 along came Champions of Mystara (CoM). CoM consisted of three = books (Explorer's Manual, Designer's Manual, and Heroes of the Princess = Ark), as well as some maps of the areas between 'the Known World' and = the Savage Coast, some floor plans of the Princess Ark, and some = cardboards featuring other flying vessels. Heroes of the Princess Ark featured a transcript of the original VotPA, = and the complete logs (called Chronicles) for the later (westwards) = journeys. Following the logs, it contains descriptions of the Princess = Ark, it's crew, and opposing NPCs and monsters. Most, if not all, of = this information can be found in VotPA, though scattered throughout the = articles. The Explorer's Manual is a compilation of short Gazetteers on the area = between 'the Known World' and the Savage Coast, specifically The Great = Waste, Sind, Graakhalia, the Serpent Peninsula, the Divinarchy of = Yavdlom, and Ulimwengu. These areas were visited by the Princess Ark, = but the material in the Explorer's Manual expands on the original = descriptions, and present a more complete overview of this area. The Designer's Manual contains rules for building and maintaining = Skyships (large flying objects), rules for aerial combat, some notes on = what lies beyond Mystara (in space), and a guide to designing nations = and settlements, waiting to be discovered. Though the Designer's Manual = builds on rules from PC2: Top Ballista and Dawn of the Emperors (DotE), = it is almost comnpletely original, and there is little from VotPA in = this book. Whether you want VotPA or CoM depends on a few things. CoM is better = organized, but only deals with a small area. It is more focused on rules = for Skyships, and presenting a complete overview of the Princess Ark and = it's journeys. VotPA is very messy, but contains loads of information = you won't find in CoM. On the other hand most of the later material can = be found in the Savage Coast, Red Steel, and Orc's Head Peninsula = supplements, though revised (rules wise) for 2nd ed. If I should = recommend one or the other, I would go for VotPA due to the sheer amount = of information to be found in it. But if you're keen on Skyship rules or = prefer a smaller, yet better detailed area, CoM could be to your = preference. Hope this helps. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:40:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-10-25 5:08:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: >=20 > > So anybody with a ring of wishes can join the Alphatian Council? ;) >=20 > He could join -- but his subsequent inability to cast any other 9th = level > spells would lead to his expulsion. So there are further tests/expectations? I don't know about his wish = thing. Might work for you, sounds strange to me. I'll leave it be. =20 > > How about the poor Shiye-Lawr elves? As somebody pointed out they = are on the > > council, and they certainly can't cast wish (in OD&D). Ultimate = magic for > > them is Passwall. Perhaps they just need to breach the wall to the = council > > chambers? ;) >=20 > I would assume that their ultimate magic is on a par with what is = presented > in Gaz 5 -- so their most powerful Wizards are Treekeepers who can = indeed > cast Wish spells. You're right. That just leaves us with the 'undeveloped' problem. Do = Shiye-Lawr elves have access to this magic? Do they follow Ilsundal's = ways? Let's just say that if you want them to IYC, they do. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:09:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So anybody with a ring of wishes can join the Alphatian Council? ;) > > He could join -- but his subsequent inability to cast any other 9th level > spells would lead to his expulsion. > > > How about the poor Shiye-Lawr elves? As somebody pointed out they are on > the > > council, and they certainly can't cast wish (in OD&D). Ultimate magic for > > them is Passwall. Perhaps they just need to breach the wall to the council > > chambers? ;) > > I would assume that their ultimate magic is on a par with what is presented > in Gaz 5 -- so their most powerful Wizards are Treekeepers who can indeed > cast Wish spells. > There's also that little bit in the RC about all demihumans, mystics too, being able to advance to 36th level. IIrc Elves combat abilities are weakened a little, but they use magic as mages of identical level. Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:46:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Fate of the 1000 Wizards and the lack of damage to Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: > There's also that little bit in the RC about all demihumans, = mystics > too, being able to advance to 36th level. IIrc Elves combat abilities = are > weakened a little, but they use magic as mages of identical level. Yes, variant/optional rules. Not exactly balanced but if people play = with them (I haven't heard of anybody who does, though my original elven = character did do something similar, way before RC though; anybody = interested in seeing him he's at the official site: = http://dnd.starflung.com/kylie.html), elves will have access to = 9th-level magic at 3,300,000 XP. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:13:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] [somewhat long] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius ha scritto: > >> So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? << > > Well, we could go into how the VotPA tended to misportray the Alphatians so they could be seen as heroes Or, as someone else put it, to change the view on them. The problem with Canon is that everything has changed in Mystara through the years, while the leading role of the material passed from the Allston/Heard and Gaz Project to Heard's VotpA and then to the members of the so-called Dupuisian Heresy . So after VotpA, basically, Alphatia became the "good guys of Mystara". And with it came obviously the Heldannic and Thyatian "evilness". This explains also all the differences in mindset among the Alphatiaphiles and the Thyatiaphiles. I don't think there are Alphatiaphiles (who often claim that things are not so bad as in DotE) who loved Alphatia after reading DotE: having read and loved the "good" Alphatia of VotpA and PWAs, they face hard times trying to find consistency in previously written material. While people like me and James, who read before DotE, and got interested there in the setting, have another portrait of Alphatia in mind. Now, this doesn't mean that we are right and the others wrong. It's a matter of perspectives, and it is particularly difficult to find an agreement on the topic. What should be perceived as the True Canon? The DotE Alphatia, or the latter? No one of us has the right to say it. However, once more we must notice the discrepancies among the Mystara products, who prevents us from coming to a definitive conclusion. However, we COULD, if we WOULD, agree with James that Alphatia is not a liberal place at all, at least in DotE. The Stalker-attitude seems however very present in the post-DotE Alphatia. Probably Bruce and Ann Dupuis didn't read or ignored completely DotE Alphatia... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis Dupuisian Heresy is a Trademark of Evil Genius Inc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:48:56 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Haldemaar,Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau wrote: > > At 18:14 10/25/2000 -0400, Evil Genius wrote: > > >>> Haldemaar reacts poorly to slave-holding groups on his travels. I > don'thave DotE, but don't the Alphatians have slaves themselves? << > > >The Alphatians have plenty of slaves, and their conditions aren't so hot. > > Sounds remarkably in-synch to the worst slave-holding regions of the > United States, pre-Civil War. > So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's > against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? Probably because he thinks that other civilizations should be slaves themselves :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:26:08 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Haldemaar,Alphatia and Slaves (was "Question about the VotPA") In-Reply-To: <39F86078.53B2E36@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:48 PM 10/26/00 +0300, you wrote: > >Probably because he thinks that other civilizations should be slaves >themselves :) Now that I think about it, though, wasn't Haldemar less shocked by the slave holding and more by the cannibalistic practices of the slaveholders? (The only incident I can think of offhand dealing with slavery is the episode on the N'djatwa, and the first appearance of Herr Rolf von Graustein). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:38:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun Muncy wrote: > > 2) I need some information on the Rakasta of Mystara. Other than the main references, as Bruce's article cited by Kavyid before, and the Savage Coast Campaign Setting, I can only suggest the "Rakasta of Glantri" at the GPD site [Ok, I wrote it, sorry for the plug] http://www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri/misc/rakasta.htm You might want to have a look at the rest of the website for other Glantrian ideas/characters/stories: http://www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri/ > 3) What ancient cultures would have had strongholds near/around the Isles of > Dread? Particularly ones with prominent Duelists. Well, the only cultures in that area I can remember are the Taymorans and the Lizard men, though none seems to keen on swashbuckling. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:38:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: New Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> I'm planning to try DMing a Mystara Online-Game under 3rd Edition rules, however my knowledge of Mystara is limited and I need a few things before I can begin: 3) What ancient cultures would have had strongholds near/around the Isles of Dread? Particularly ones with prominent Duelists. << IIRC James Mishler did a writeup on the History of the Ispan peoples. You can probably find this on the starflung site. They would fit the bill as prominent Duelists, though I don't know that I would call them ancient. I'm not sure, but I think he had them colonize some of the IoD isles, on their way to the Savage Coast. >> 4) Would anyone be interested in being a 'World consultant'/Story Critic? << Sure, I could help out here. I don't have huge amounts of time, but I think I could provide you with some feedback. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:10:08 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: VotPA vs CoM In-Reply-To: <003d01c03f37$974f9460$03dc61d4@skytte> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is really valuable info. Why don't you (and the others that replied) post this to the D&D product reviews site? I think it was at: http://thing.slashnull.org/review/adventures.php Wait, I see that it is pretty strictly for modules. Is there some other place with reviews of the product? Shawn's site? Amazon, even? Quoting Jacob Skytte : > Federico Kaftal wrote: > > > > What's exactly present in VotPA and missing in CoM? > > Or what's different (if anything) between the two versions? > > > > Try to explain it to somebody who don't own any of the two, and wants > to > > decide whether to look for one or the other. > > Thank you, > > The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) was originally an attempt at > exploring the world of Mystara outside of 'the Known World'. The Ark set > off in AC965, travelled south along the north-eastern coasts of Davania, > and the crew had a lot of interesting adventures (including a short trip > to the Hollow World). These adventures were related as a log, mostly > written by the captain, Haldemaar, but sometimes by other crew members. > After the log every article contained some background (DM) material on > the areas featured in the present article as well as some other tidbits > of information. After the Ark had travelled for some time there was a > time-travelling disaster and the Ark was brought to the present (AC1000) > and returned home to Alphatia. After some more misadventures, it > travelled westwards, along the southern coasts of the continent of Brun. > > The articles continued in the established style for quite a while, > opening up the savage coast, and discovering the Red Steel, and the > Orc's Head Peninsula, among other adventures. Eventually all good things > come to an end, and the Princess Ark disappeared from Dragon Magazine. > It had kept going from january 1990 till december 1992, and was replaced > with the Known World Grimoire, which among other articles, also included > some more expansions on what lay westwards of the Savage Coast. > > In 1993 along came Champions of Mystara (CoM). CoM consisted of three > books (Explorer's Manual, Designer's Manual, and Heroes of the Princess > Ark), as well as some maps of the areas between 'the Known World' and > the Savage Coast, some floor plans of the Princess Ark, and some > cardboards featuring other flying vessels. > > Heroes of the Princess Ark featured a transcript of the original VotPA, > and the complete logs (called Chronicles) for the later (westwards) > journeys. Following the logs, it contains descriptions of the Princess > Ark, it's crew, and opposing NPCs and monsters. Most, if not all, of > this information can be found in VotPA, though scattered throughout the > articles. > > The Explorer's Manual is a compilation of short Gazetteers on the area > between 'the Known World' and the Savage Coast, specifically The Great > Waste, Sind, Graakhalia, the Serpent Peninsula, the Divinarchy of > Yavdlom, and Ulimwengu. These areas were visited by the Princess Ark, > but the material in the Explorer's Manual expands on the original > descriptions, and present a more complete overview of this area. > > The Designer's Manual contains rules for building and maintaining > Skyships (large flying objects), rules for aerial combat, some notes on > what lies beyond Mystara (in space), and a guide to designing nations > and settlements, waiting to be discovered. Though the Designer's Manual > builds on rules from PC2: Top Ballista and Dawn of the Emperors (DotE), > it is almost comnpletely original, and there is little from VotPA in > this book. > > Whether you want VotPA or CoM depends on a few things. CoM is better > organized, but only deals with a small area. It is more focused on rules > for Skyships, and presenting a complete overview of the Princess Ark and > it's journeys. VotPA is very messy, but contains loads of information > you won't find in CoM. On the other hand most of the later material can > be found in the Savage Coast, Red Steel, and Orc's Head Peninsula > supplements, though revised (rules wise) for 2nd ed. If I should > recommend one or the other, I would go for VotPA due to the sheer amount > of information to be found in it. But if you're keen on Skyship rules or > prefer a smaller, yet better detailed area, CoM could be to your > preference. > > Hope this helps. > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:11:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: VotPA vs CoM In-Reply-To: <003d01c03f37$974f9460$03dc61d4@skytte> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aha! I found the right place to put these comments on the review site: http://thing.slashnull.org/review/select.php?id=92 Quoting Jacob Skytte : > Federico Kaftal wrote: > > > > What's exactly present in VotPA and missing in CoM? > > Or what's different (if anything) between the two versions? > > > > Try to explain it to somebody who don't own any of the two, and wants > to > > decide whether to look for one or the other. > > Thank you, > > The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) was originally an attempt at > exploring the world of Mystara outside of 'the Known World'. The Ark set > off in AC965, travelled south along the north-eastern coasts of Davania, > and the crew had a lot of interesting adventures (including a short trip > to the Hollow World). These adventures were related as a log, mostly > written by the captain, Haldemaar, but sometimes by other crew members. > After the log every article contained some background (DM) material on > the areas featured in the present article as well as some other tidbits > of information. After the Ark had travelled for some time there was a > time-travelling disaster and the Ark was brought to the present (AC1000) > and returned home to Alphatia. After some more misadventures, it > travelled westwards, along the southern coasts of the continent of Brun. > > The articles continued in the established style for quite a while, > opening up the savage coast, and discovering the Red Steel, and the > Orc's Head Peninsula, among other adventures. Eventually all good things > come to an end, and the Princess Ark disappeared from Dragon Magazine. > It had kept going from january 1990 till december 1992, and was replaced > with the Known World Grimoire, which among other articles, also included > some more expansions on what lay westwards of the Savage Coast. > > In 1993 along came Champions of Mystara (CoM). CoM consisted of three > books (Explorer's Manual, Designer's Manual, and Heroes of the Princess > Ark), as well as some maps of the areas between 'the Known World' and > the Savage Coast, some floor plans of the Princess Ark, and some > cardboards featuring other flying vessels. > > Heroes of the Princess Ark featured a transcript of the original VotPA, > and the complete logs (called Chronicles) for the later (westwards) > journeys. Following the logs, it contains descriptions of the Princess > Ark, it's crew, and opposing NPCs and monsters. Most, if not all, of > this information can be found in VotPA, though scattered throughout the > articles. > > The Explorer's Manual is a compilation of short Gazetteers on the area > between 'the Known World' and the Savage Coast, specifically The Great > Waste, Sind, Graakhalia, the Serpent Peninsula, the Divinarchy of > Yavdlom, and Ulimwengu. These areas were visited by the Princess Ark, > but the material in the Explorer's Manual expands on the original > descriptions, and present a more complete overview of this area. > > The Designer's Manual contains rules for building and maintaining > Skyships (large flying objects), rules for aerial combat, some notes on > what lies beyond Mystara (in space), and a guide to designing nations > and settlements, waiting to be discovered. Though the Designer's Manual > builds on rules from PC2: Top Ballista and Dawn of the Emperors (DotE), > it is almost comnpletely original, and there is little from VotPA in > this book. > > Whether you want VotPA or CoM depends on a few things. CoM is better > organized, but only deals with a small area. It is more focused on rules > for Skyships, and presenting a complete overview of the Princess Ark and > it's journeys. VotPA is very messy, but contains loads of information > you won't find in CoM. On the other hand most of the later material can > be found in the Savage Coast, Red Steel, and Orc's Head Peninsula > supplements, though revised (rules wise) for 2nd ed. If I should > recommend one or the other, I would go for VotPA due to the sheer amount > of information to be found in it. But if you're keen on Skyship rules or > prefer a smaller, yet better detailed area, CoM could be to your > preference. > > Hope this helps. > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:46:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: VotPA vs CoM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wizards Shopper wrote: > This is really valuable info. Why don't you (and the others that = replied) post > this to the D&D product reviews site? I was thinking that myself as I wrote it. I think I'll make a few = changes to it and then post it there (I've already posted a few reviews = on the site, so I know where it's at ;) ). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:44:54 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Question about the VotPA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To frame the question properly: What are the instances in which Haldemar expressed revulsion at slavery? Offhand I can think of only the N'djatwa. In this case I think Haldemar's problem was with their cannibalism, not with their keeping of slaves. Even then he seemed willing to establish relations between them and Alphatia without changing their customs. So -- which slave-holding cultures did Haldemar actually express disapproval of anyway? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:44:50 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Wishing Elf Wizards (was Fate of the 1000 Wizards etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-26 6:53:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > You're right. That just leaves us with the 'undeveloped' problem. Do Shiye- > Lawr elves have access to this magic? Do they follow Ilsundal's ways? Let's > just say that if you want them to IYC, they do. Of course they follow Eiryndul, not Ilsundal -- but if the Elves of Alfheim and the Shadow Elves have such similar magic (as indicated by the very similar spell lists in Gaz 5 and Gaz 13), then it is safe to extrapolate that the Shiye-Lawr Elves also have access to similar magic. Given the fact that they live in forests rather than underground, the differences between their magic and that of the Alfheim Elves should be rather slight. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:10:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] [somewhat long] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:13:16 Caroletti wrote: >Evil Genius ha scritto: > >> >> So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? << >> >> Well, we could go into how the VotPA tended to misportray the Alphatians so they could be seen as heroes > >Or, as someone else put it, to change the view on them. The problem with >Canon is that everything has changed in Mystara through the years, while the >leading role of the material passed from the Allston/Heard and Gaz Project >to Heard's VotpA and then to the members of the so-called Dupuisian Heresy >. > That's right - things change... I must admit that I don't think that's always a bad thing. >So after VotpA, basically, Alphatia became the "good guys of Mystara". And >with it came obviously the Heldannic and Thyatian "evilness". > I wouldn't call Thyatis any more "evil" than it was before, but Alphatia certainly did either change for the better or just received a remarkably good PR agent :) >This explains also all the differences in mindset among the Alphatiaphiles and the >Thyatiaphiles. I don't think there are Alphatiaphiles (who often claim that things >are not so bad as in DotE) who loved Alphatia after reading DotE: > Actually, I would be an example of that... I liked Alphatia (and made my Stalker character) long before I ever heard of the PWAs (in fact, our DM had only just bought WOTI at the time and we hadn't even started playing it - I definitely hadn't been allowed to see it!) So I can certainly say that I liked Alphatia on the basis of DotE alone (because I never saw any of the earlier stuff before). Sure, it was a rather harsh society with a lot of unjust ideals, but that just made it more interesting and challenging to play a general "good-guy" from that place, particularly if you were playing one of those dreaded wizards. Besides, I never saw what was so wrong with having an empire that wasn't all flawless - I just embraced the things that I did like and played my character on that basis. That was one aspect at least, while a second was the (for me wonderful) focus on magic, and a third the simple fact that Alphatia was so different to all the other "real-world copy" nations... Then the PWAs came along, and I thought, "Wow! Alphatia sure has taken a more positive turn, hasn't it?" I liked that to a degree because canon now seemed to support the sort of change that my own character had tried to help bring about... > having read >and loved the "good" Alphatia of VotpA and PWAs, they face hard times trying >to find consistency in previously written material. That's true, I guess. There are definitely inconsistencies in there, and they could (and probably should) have either explained why things changed (it's not good enough to just blame it on the Immortals) or else have left things more as they were. These changes may have worked out well for me, but I can certainly see that they might have caused a lot of problems for the campaigns of other people. >While people like me and James, >who read before DotE, and got interested there in the setting, have another >portrait of Alphatia in mind. > >Now, this doesn't mean that we are right and the others wrong. It's a matter of >perspectives, and it is particularly difficult to find an agreement on the topic. What >should be perceived as the True Canon? The DotE Alphatia, or the latter? No >one of us has the right to say it. However, once more we must notice the >discrepancies among the Mystara products, who prevents us from coming to >a definitive conclusion. > Nobody. Agreeing on one seems to be the problem. >However, we COULD, if we WOULD, agree with James that Alphatia is not >a liberal place at all, at least in DotE. The Stalker-attitude seems however very >present in the post-DotE Alphatia. I'm not sure you understood me completely - I *do* agree with much of what James is saying (I even think he would say so himself, actually), but I cannot see the harsh oppression that he points to, not even in DotE. Yes, the laws are very harsh and unjust and extremely biased in favor of spellcasters, but I never saw that the lower classes were quite that oppressed except in some obvious cases like in Arogansa or Blackheart. > Probably Bruce and Ann Dupuis didn't read >or ignored completely DotE Alphatia... > Well, Allston wrote both DotE, WotI, and PWA1, so I don't think it's quite fair to blame it all on Dupuis, as Alphatia's benevolence toward the Oostdok gnomes, for example, had already been established by Allston in PWA1 before she came along... > >Dupuisian Heresy is a Trademark of Evil Genius Inc. > LOL. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] [somewhat long] Mystara wrote: > On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:13:16 Caroletti wrote:>Evil Genius ha scritto: > >> >> So what's Haldemaar's problem, then? He's a jingoistic Alphatian, but he's against other civilizations having slaves? Huh? > >> Well, we could go into how the VotPA tended to misportray the Alphatians so they could be seen as heroes > >Or, as someone else put it, to change the view on them. > >> That's right - things change... I must admit that I don't think that's always a bad thing. << The problem comes when it occurs by basically lying and steath; portraying it as having always been like that, and from essentially shifting the positive aspects from the one place (expropriating them) to the other, and vice versa, and pretending as if this is the proper portrayal. Alphatia has to be the only Mystaran country where the gazetter for it is often taken as not representing what the place is like. Bizzare, and not exactly "cricket" when done as it has been. See below. >> I wouldn't call Thyatis any more "evil" than it was before, but Alphatia certainly did either change for the better or just received a remarkably good PR agent :) << That's not true. Lets take some examples: Alphatia, post heresy, vs Thyatis, post heresy. Alphatia: portrayed as being a cosmopolitan society open to viewing anyone as potential citizens (I.E. the Jennites); thus to make that fit, Thyatis portrayed as a closed, chauvinistic society. Those writing for Alphatia expropriate one of the positive aspects of Thyatis for Alphatia, and transfer one of the negative aspects of Alphatia to Thyatis in exchange. Alphatia: portrayed as having "Alphatian Citizenship" which is a good deal for, say, the Jennites; this is related to the above but also distinct from it. This "Alphatian Citizenship" becomes one of the cohesive things pulling Alphatia together into a unitary (see below) state. So, conversely, Thyatis instead portrayed as being a opressive hellhole that people want to get away from or overthrow. Once again those writing for Alphatia expropriate one of the positive aspects of Thyatis and "trade it" for giving one of the negative attributes of Alphatia in exchange. Alphatia: Slaves portrayed as being protected by "Imperial Law" that looks out for their interest and prevents abuse. Thus, conversely, Thyatis is instead portrayed as horribly opressing and offering no legal protections for their slaves, leading to the annually scripted slave revolt in PWAs II & III and JA. Once again, those writing for Alphatia expropriate holesale one of the positive aspects of Thyatis and "trade it", giving Thyatis one of the negative aspects of Alphatia in the exchange. Alphatia: portrayed in PWA II as having the world's best military. Thus, conversely, Thyatis portrayed as having a not very effective military. Of course, Alphatia also keeps its magical might in addition to being attributed with military might now. Once again, those writing for Alphatia exproprate one of the positive aspects of Thyatis and "trade it" in exchange for one of the negative aspects of Alphatia, while of course keeping the original positive aspect of Alphatia as well. Alphatia: portrayed as a cohesive, united state rather than a fractious one with internal divisions. Thus, likewise, Thyatis portrayed as apparently falling appart with chaos and division. Once again, those writing for Alphatia expropriate one of the positive aspects of Thyatis and "trade it" in exchange for one of the aspects of Alphatia which held it back/led it to perform below its potential. Alphatia: portrayed as a society where a non-spellcasting warrior (Broderick, for instance) can rise to the top of the nation, respected and listened to by all around him (including, especially, the Wizards), a place of oportunity for all, where a warrior can overthrow the Emperor and become leader, be listened to and regarded as an equal if not superior by the aristocrats (spellcasting). So thus Thyatis has to be portrayed as not open to that kind of thing. Once again, those writing for Alphatia expropriate one of the positive aspects of Thyatis and "trade it" in exchange for one of the negative aspects of Alphatia, while still, of course, keeping all of Alphatia's positive attributes as well. We have people wanting to portray mainland Alphatia as having Knightly Orders, as having (in effect) a Retebius Air Corps (the 2nd Regiment of the Imperial Alphatian Guard) while Thyatis has one, as having Counts on the mainland, etc (rather than Lords; mainland hierarchy of nobility doesn't recognize Counts) - in other words, its gotten to the point where folks think any aspect of the Thyatis they claim to despise and have contempt for is up for grabs for them. Hippocrites. THen we hardly need to speak of those negative aspects of Alphatia which completely disapeared, and positive virtues which were attributed to it that it never seemed to evidence before, wherin now it seems natural for people to say that an Alphatian slave is fairly well treated (that is, when they don't just say "what Alphatian slaves?" or ignore their existance, or the plight of the Servant class - now transformed into Happy Citizens) and can save money and buy their freedom (something that before was an aspect of the Thyatian system of slavery, not the Alphatian one, as far as the buying one's liberty thing goes), and think nothing of it. So, yes, when those writing for Alphatia were busy re-crafting it as their vision of the Perfect Society Utopia, they (naturally) made its counterpart Empire more evil and twisted than ever before - taking from it all its positive attributes, while of course leaving behind all its negative attributes (the corruption &tc), and transfering to it all of the former/real Alphatia's negative attributes, while keeping of course all of Alphatia's positive attributes as well as adding to that the positive attributes that were formerly attributed to Thyatis. Thus we get "un-Alphatia", the sickeningly Perfect Society. >> "Wow! Alphatia sure has taken a more positive turn, hasn't it?" I liked that to a degree because canon now seemed to support the sort of change that my own character had tried to help bring about...<< Yah, I guess that would make it hard for you and others to understand why those of us who liked the original Alphatia some, but admired most the original Thyatis, and got screwed over in the exchange. :( >>Now, this doesn't mean that we are right and the others wrong. << I didn't reply to this before, but yes it does. This is wrong. Had they done this to Karameikos or Glantri, taken all the good things from it, stripped the positive things from it so they could exalt some other rival nation, and then dumped all the bad attributes of that rival nation on Karameikos or Glantri, the fans of those nations would (rightly) be fit to be tied. The fans of Glantri, indeed, got a tiny taste of that when the Kara. School of Magecraft was suddenly portrayed as a rival to the GSoM (but at least they didn't take away the GSoM) - and I know how people who like Glantri feel about *that*. But it was only one thing, and you did keep the GSoM, and can (correctly) still portray it as being the better school. I'll say its wrong. "What's to argue about? I'm right and everyone else is wrong." - Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes." >> I never saw that the lower classes were quite that oppressed except in some obvious cases like in Arogansa or Blackheart. << The Alphatian Empire exists, mainly, because the common folk positively *flee* from mainland Alphatia every chance they get. Just about every colony of Alphatia is inhabited in large portion by the persons with lower magical skill. Ochalea was founded like that (and the Ochaleans are "not fond" of the Alphatians as a result), the Alatian islands were, there's evidence that Bellissaria was (the proportion of spellcasters on Bellissaria is only slightly higher than what is found elsewhere in Mystara), Ericall fled the capital dispite the fact that he lived well as the Empress's son because of how things were there, and he took pitty on Lernal the Swill because he "knows what its like to be a non-magical noble's son in Alphatia" (if it's so bad for the sons of nobility, what must it be like for the sons of commoners?) The one Kingdom that treats commoners at all decently is one of the tinyest in Alphatia, but is more densely populated than Thyatis, while the rest of Alphatia is p! ! opulated at a hunter-gatherer level, because anyone who can flees to it if they can't get out of the mainland all together. That's DotE Alphatia for the common folk. I have the quotes (over 20K of bad quotes - DotE actually has much worse things to say about Alphatia than I usually do) if you're interested, in a file. One thing that does have to be said for Thyatis is, as bad as things got (and Dupuis and others made sure to portray them as badly as possible), things can't have been as bad as in Alphatia, because Eusebius had to conscript people into leaving it (I'm sure that wasn't her intent in portraying the Emmigration Draft, which was supposed to be another example of how absolutist and tyrranical Thyatis was, where no one has any rights and the Emperor can treat them like. . .well, like Alphatian Servants before the replacement of Alphatia with "Un-Alphatia" - but that's one of the unitended consiquences of her Emmigration Draft, so I'll steal something positive and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear with that one). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:17:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Question about the VotPA In-Reply-To: <57.cd9410a.272a2a06@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20:44 10/26/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >To frame the question properly: > >What are the instances in which Haldemar expressed revulsion at slavery? > >Offhand I can think of only the N'djatwa. In this case I think Haldemar's >problem was with their cannibalism, not with their keeping of slaves. >Even then he seemed willing to establish relations between them and >Alphatia without changing their customs. > >So -- which slave-holding cultures did Haldemar actually express >disapproval of anyway? I'm only up to chapter 10 or so. The N'djatwa were the ones that provoked me to write. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:08:47 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: New Game In-Reply-To: <39F87A2A.5727C84B@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Agathokles wrote: > > 2) I need some information on the Rakasta of Mystara. > > Other than the main references, as Bruce's article cited by Kavyid > before, and the Savage Coast Campaign Setting, I can only suggest the > "Rakasta of Glantri" at the GPD site [Ok, I wrote it, sorry for the > plug] > http://www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri/misc/rakasta.htm How come the article is so short? :) We want more! H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:17:32 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think one of the reasons why the views on Alphatia and Thyatis in Canon have changed so much over the latest years is mainly due to the fact that the main area of Mystara campaigns have shifted. As all good gaming material, the campaign material for Mystara is written from a partially subjective point of view, so as to add flavour to the setting. If you look at pre WOtI, the setting was mainly based in southeaster Brun, assuming that most PC's would come from this territory. Given this, players would have very little access to anything but heavily biased views on Alphatia that were always somewhat on the negative side. None of the nations of the area did at the time view Alphatia as a big threat somewhere in the far east. With the introduction of WOtI, the setting changed, suddenly providing a lot more information on the other nations of the world, making the whole setting a more cosmopolitan one. As such, the information that is available on Alphatia takes on more of a first-person view. And the inhabitants of Alphatia are for one reason or another mostly content with the situation, thus not needing to resort to revolts and the like. In Thyatis on the other hand, people are no longer as content as they once were. Be it tyrannical leadership, poor information control, or just that the strain of the war and the following plague caused people to become discontent, and reacted with blaming the governent (as always). This would lead to a demise of public oppinion about Thyatian government, and led to such things as slave revolts and food riots in addition to less fortunate reviews in the almanacs. Thus I would say that the followers of the so-called Dupuisan Heresy(tm) just have given Thyatis and Alphatia a treatment that more closely corresponds with public oppinion. -Count Mzilikazi (proud to be part of the ruling class of the glorious kingdom of Limn) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:54:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] In-Reply-To: ; from sverrebm@ONLINE.NO on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:17:32AM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:17:32AM +0200, Mzilikazi wrote: > > If you look at pre WOtI, the setting was mainly based in > southeaster Brun, assuming that most PC's would come from this territory. Umn, DotE was pre WotI, many of the Companion and Master level modules were set in Norwold/Isle of Dawn and other areas. I wouldn't have said that WotI particularly opened up any areas on Mystara... > Thus I would say that the followers of the so-called Dupuisan Heresy(tm) Heh, while submitting material for the Fudge Expanded Edition (which Ann Dupuis is editor/co-writer of) I had mention of the Dupuisan Heresey as in-game background from Ratling creatures, unfortunately it was one of the bits that didn't make it in, but hey, it was fun :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:57:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] [somewhat long] In-Reply-To: ; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 11:01:12PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 11:01:12PM -0400, Evil Genius wrote: > > >> I wouldn't call Thyatis any more "evil" than it was before, > >> but Alphatia certainly did either change for the better or > >> just received a remarkably good PR agent :) > > That's not true. Lets take some examples: > > Alphatia, post heresy, vs Thyatis, post heresy. :) I mean, you can't really argue with that... As for the School of Magecraft vs GSoM, yes, indeed IMC (glantrian) it's not even a blip on the radar, inconsequential compared to schools of magic in Thyatis, never mind Glantri. Of course, then the SoM burned down during the Karameikan civil war, but hey, can't have everything :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] >> Thus I would say that the followers of the so-called Dupuisan Heresy(tm) just have given Thyatis and Alphatia a treatment that more closely corresponds with public oppinion. << Basically by lying about what each is like, however. After all, if Alphatian society is so much superior and Thyatian society so much inferior, then why do you folks feel the need to rip off so much from the Empire you despise? Think about that one for awhile, "Count". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:19:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: [IC] Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My dear evil genius-wannabe > Basically by lying about what each is like, however. > After all, if Alphatian society is so much superior and Thyatian > society so much inferior, then why do you folks feel the need to > rip off so much from the Empire you despise? > Think about that one for awhile, "Count". Do we rip off the Thyatians???? Thyatis is the "empire" that was once an Alphatian province. The foundation for Thyatian "civilization" was in fact laid by The Alphatian Empire. I think you should take a closer look at exactly who is doing the ripping here! - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:33:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:17:32 Mzilikazi wrote: > I think one of the reasons why the views on Alphatia and Thyatis in Canon >have changed so much over the latest years is mainly due to the fact that >the main area of Mystara campaigns have shifted. > >As all good gaming material, the campaign material for Mystara is written >from a partially subjective point of view, so as to add flavour to the >setting. If you look at pre WOtI, the setting was mainly based in >southeaster Brun, assuming that most PC's would come from this territory. >Given this, players would have very little access to anything but heavily >biased views on Alphatia that were always somewhat on the negative side. > I don't think I agree with that. The player's guide to Alphatia in DotE was very much supposed to be written from the Alphatians' point of view, and the DM's sourcebook was supposed to be unbiased. You may may not agree with the implications of that, which I actually see nothing wrong with - your game, your rules, but we should also accept that there are people out there who founded Alphatia in their campaigns on those descriptions, and they have just as much right to defend their interpretation because of the role Alphatia plays in their campaigns. I never saw Alphatia as quite as bad as James and Giulio describe it, but they have just as much right to stand by their interpretations as I do! >None of the nations of the area did at the time view Alphatia as a big >threat somewhere in the far east. > I doubt this is entirely correct - if you look in Gaz 2, the Ylaruam gazetteer, you'll note that they indeed see Alphatia as a major threat to their nation, particularly that Barimoor fellow. >With the introduction of WOtI, the setting changed, suddenly providing a lot >more information on the other nations of the world, making the whole setting >a more cosmopolitan one. What other nations? Very little was described of what happened outside the areas described in the gazetteers. Sind is mentioned, though mostly because of the invasion of Darokin which has clear ties to the X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield adventure. If you want background for what happened in Sind and the related areas, you'll have to look in CoM. If you want background for what happened in the Savage Coast area, you'll have to look in the Red Steel campaign setting. In fact, the conflicts in Norwold, for example, are given very few comments in WotI. > As such, the information that is available on >Alphatia takes on more of a first-person view. And the inhabitants of >Alphatia are for one reason or another mostly content with the situation, >thus not needing to resort to revolts and the like. > I'd say that Alphatia's treatment of the Neathar in HW does not shed a very positive light on the empire. Other than that, we see little of national perspective in WotI - most of the rest is nothing but unbiased statements of what happens at what time and place during the war IMHO. >In Thyatis on the other hand, people are no longer as content as they once >were. Be it tyrannical leadership, poor information control, or just that >the strain of the war and the following plague caused people to become >discontent, and reacted with blaming the governent (as always). This would >lead to a demise of public oppinion about Thyatian government, and led to >such things as slave revolts and food riots in addition to less fortunate >reviews in the almanacs. > Yes, but I don't think this is what people criticize. (snip rest) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:51:04 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: [IC] Alphatia 1 & 2 >> Do we rip off the Thyatians???? << Of course you did, "Count" "Alphatian Citizens"? "Alphatian Imperial Law" as protecting slaves from mistreatment? Alphatia as a place where fighters are respected by wizards? Point of fact is, those who claim to perfer Alphatia know in their hearts which Empire is the better one: that's why in their portrayals they've ended up portraying Alphatia as Thyatis with more magic, and portraying Thyatis as an Alphatia without magic. Because Thyatis is the better place - so to pretend that Alphatia is a decent society, they had to steal attributes from Thyatis and attribute them to Alphatia instead. If Alphatia really were the superior society, and Thyatis really were the inferior one, then you people wouldn't have to do that. This is emblematic even in small matters, such as your title, "Count". "Count" isn't a title recognized on the Alphatian mainland. . .but it is a recognized title in the *Thyatian* noble hierarchy. Face it, the real Alphatia isn't what you might hope it to be - thus you have to steal wholesale from Thyatis while pretending that's not what you're doing. But the truth remains: if Alphatia really was better, and Thyatis really was worse and horrible, then this lifting and transferal of attributes from Thyatis to Alphatia wouldn't occur. So there we have it: you know it, I know it, we all know which one is really the better Empire. I'd say "immitation is the sincerest form of flatery", but when it involves, in effect, misrepresentation and distortion, its not very flatering. But it does show what you people are really like, as well as what you know in your heart to be true. If Alphatian society really was admirable in any way, this kind of distortion of it wouldn't be nessissary. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:25:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear list members, i wish to apologise for any offence given by my post in relation to the favourite class thread. especially to mischa my response to his reply was combatative and badly thought out. i dont actually wish to get into a discussion on this topic. i of late have been very grumpy and tired due to the organisation of my wedding, working late, and a teething baby. these things have me in a nearly constant near boiling point. i still say i hate clerics, but that is my opinion of them and not worth going to war over. my preference for the thief actually comes from my youth. i grew up in a working class estate in dublin, where the majority of people were on welfare. and it was a very meagre sum. this led to a lot of people ending up practising the skills of thieves to get by. this has given me an insight into this character and enabled me to play him well. the mage i always see as something of a power monger,and if there is one thing i have always liked in books and movies it's the villains.they alwas seem to have the better lines.even good wizards though tend to have power.this is what i like about wizards in general. clerics i just can't play. unless i play them as evil, which is how i tend to see them anyway. so again i apologise. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:47:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: SV: [MYSTARA] [IC] Alphatia 1 & 2 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Do we rip off the Thyatians???? << > > Of course you did, "Count" > > "Alphatian Citizens"? a Rip Off? The term Alphatian Citizen existed long before Thyatians had crawled out of their caves. If anybody has been ripping off here, it is the Thyatians. > "Alphatian Imperial Law" as protecting slaves from mistreatment? Alphatian Imperial Law was also a fact long before this concept was even thought about by the first Thyatian statesmen. > Alphatia as a place where fighters are respected by wizards? Respected: Yes, of course. They're respected in the same manner as any craftsman. As for giving them privileges of nobility, that's something even you must understand is a ridiculous thought. [snip] (bla... bla... bla...) > This is emblematic even in small matters, such as your title, "Count". > "Count" isn't a title recognized on the Alphatian mainland. . > .but it is a recognized title in the *Thyatian* noble hierarchy. The title Count, of course isn't of Alphatian origin. Even you managed to see that.. But to claim that this is a Thyatian title is maybe stretching it a bit too thin. This is a title used by almost every nation with a noble caste. One of these nations (definitely not Thyatis!!!) labeled me with that title a few hundred years ago, and I decided to keep it even after joining the only true empire on Mystara. > Face it, the real Alphatia isn't what you might hope it to be - > thus you have to steal wholesale from Thyatis while pretending > that's not what you're doing. > > But the truth remains: if Alphatia really was better, and Thyatis > really was worse and horrible, then this lifting and transferal > of attributes from Thyatis to Alphatia wouldn't occur. The only transferral I have seen is the other way around. Which of course just proves my point if I am to follow your logic. This is another example of how barbaric cultures try to adapt advanced concepts such as logic without an understanding of how they actually work. This display of Thyatian "logic" only helps prove my point. All traces of civilization found in Thyatian culture can be traced back to their period as citizens of the Alphatian empire. A status they sadly rejected, and we can all see where that has led them. A brutish state reverting to barbaric customs, having lost all manner of sophistication and intellectuality. -Count Mzilikazi, Alphatian Lord of Limn. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:56:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: SV: [MYSTARA] Alphatia 1 & 2 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply to The Stalker No offense, but I think you misunderstand some of my intentions here. > >None of the nations of the area did at the time view Alphatia as a big > >threat somewhere in the far east. > > > > I doubt this is entirely correct - if you look in Gaz 2, the > Ylaruam gazetteer, you'll note that they indeed see Alphatia as a > major threat to their nation, particularly that Barimoor fellow. I am sorry, but that was a typo. The real sentence was supposed to be: None of the nations of the area did at the time view Alphatia as being anythig but a big threat somewhere in the far East. > >With the introduction of WOtI, the setting changed, suddenly > providing a lot > >more information on the other nations of the world, making the > whole setting > >a more cosmopolitan one. > > What other nations? Very little was described of what happened > outside the areas described in the gazetteers. Sind is mentioned, > though mostly because of the invasion of Darokin which has clear > ties to the X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield adventure. If you want > background for what happened in Sind and the related areas, > you'll have to look in CoM. If you want background for what > happened in the Savage Coast area, you'll have to look in the Red > Steel campaign setting. In fact, the conflicts in Norwold, for > example, are given very few comments in WotI. I am referring here to the information given in the products released after WOtI (mainly CoM and the Almanacs), not the WOtI itself. [snip] > I'd say that Alphatia's treatment of the Neathar in HW does not > shed a very positive light on the empire. Other than that, we see > little of national perspective in WotI - most of the rest is > nothing but unbiased statements of what happens at what time and > place during the war IMHO. Yes. Unbiased statements, as opposed to those given in most pre WOtI products (with the possible exception of the Aplhatian section of the DoE). > >In Thyatis on the other hand, people are no longer as content as > they once > >were. Be it tyrannical leadership, poor information control, or just that > >the strain of the war and the following plague caused people to become > >discontent, and reacted with blaming the governent (as always). > This would > >lead to a demise of public oppinion about Thyatian government, and led to > >such things as slave revolts and food riots in addition to less fortunate > >reviews in the almanacs. > > > > Yes, but I don't think this is what people criticize. They were critizising the way Thyatis has been portrayed after the war, I merely tried to make an explanation. - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: [IC] Alphatia 1 & 2 >> Rip Off? The term Alphatian Citizen existed long before Thyatians had crawled out of their caves. If anybody has been ripping off here, it is the Thyatians. << Ok; here we go. Everyone open up the Player's Guide to Alphatia and the Player's Guide to Thyatis to the sections on Social Classes. In the PGtA, that page is 16. In the PGtT, that page is 15. Check out both, and let me know which has a "Citizen" class, and which doesn not. Those of you who are incapable of reading (and it seems some might be), call a literate friend and get him or her to read the sections aloud to you. > "Alphatian Imperial Law" as protecting slaves from mistreatment? >> Alphatian Imperial Law was also a fact long before this concept was even thought about by the first Thyatian statesmen. << But it does manifestly *NOT* protect slaves from mistreatment. Indeed, quite the opposite. Stay on the same page in both texts, and read (or, again, for those you like Mzilikazi who have trouble, call a friend over and have them read it aloud to you) the sections on slavery in each place. What does Alphatia's "Imperial Law" provide? No protections - quite to the contrary "Slaves may not carry weapons; it is a required death penalty for a slave to touch a weapon for any reason other than defense of his owner. . .runaways are executed, by imperial law." Quite a different impression than that which the decietful heretics would lead you to believe. >> The title Count, of course isn't of Alphatian origin. << At least you have a dim awareness somewhere in your tangled conciousness (I hesitate to call it an intellect) that Alphatia is deficient, and to get what you desire you have to search elsewhere for it. >> The only transferral I have seen is the other way around. << Which only proves that you are insensate. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:05:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: SV: [MYSTARA] Alphatia 1 & 2 >> Yes. Unbiased statements, as opposed to those given in most pre WOtI products (with the possible exception of the Aplhatian section of the DotE). << You really need to take some time and read the Alphatian section of DotE, then. It's pretty evident that you haven't, as your ignorance of Alphatia is profound. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Truth About Alphatia DotE on Alphatia, both in the sections biased in *favor* of it (the Player's Guide; and looking at these quotes, if this is the best they can say about their own country. . .), and in the impartial DM's section: Unless otherwise noted, these are from DotE's Player's Guide to Alphatia: "Yes, you are nothing in that land unless you possess magical knowledge" (p.2) "They treat their slaves as we treat our convicts, and treat their freemen as we treat our slaves. They are often a cruel people." (p.2) "As for the darker stories. . .such things are not uncommon. However, in a land as lawless as this (lawless, that is, for the ruling class), you will find magicians who practice every sort of evil." "Any nobleman with whom you dine and chat in light-hearted merriment today might tomorrow fly away to his hidden palace in the depths of the Blackheart Forest to practice the most grisly sort of magical experimentation." (p.2) "Justice and goodness, especially toward those who wield no magic, are not important to them." (p.2) Also read fully and understand the second "What Everyone Knows about Alphatia", which confirms the impression the first gives. Two things to note about these quotes: 1) Before you dismiss them as the statements of characters, ask if you'd do the same regarding the "What Everyone Knows about Thyatis" statements. Plus, later materiel doesn't imply these impressions are incorrect, just perhaps somewhat overstated - but not inaccurate or wrong. 2) My, those ignorant barbarians *do* notice the society of Alphatia, and go on about it at some length. . .they don't just stand in collective awe of Alphatian splendor. Ok, so lets partially ignore Note #1, and recognize that these are outsiders talking about Alphatia. Their impressions might not be 100% accurate, even if one must grant that they get the general flavor correct. What does an "insider" have to say about Alphatia? Lets listen in on one of Alphatia's biggest "insiders", Tylion/"Terari". If anyone would know Alphatia well, it would be him: "But here , in Alphatian lands, do you know what you are? . . .you are the spittle on the sidewalk. . .you serve another. This makes you a Servant by rank - you rate barely ahead of a slave, for all the Princess lets you dress nicely." (p.3) "Lets". How nice. Tylion/"Terari" goes on: "This is not any land you know. Learn its ways, and you may have more power than you have ever conceived of. Fail - or annoy those who would help you - and the best you can hope for, the most merciful fate, is to drudge until the miserable end of your miserable life." (p.3) Ok, but what does Tylion/"Terari" *REALLY* think of Alphatia? For that, lets turn to his description in the DM Sourcebook: "He has grown thoughtful and introspective enough that he perceives flaws in the Alphatian way of life, and is no longer disparaging of non-magic-users." (p.53, DMSB). Flaws, eh? Back to the Player's Guide: "The True History of our beloved Empire. . .is not always a happy one. Accompanying our great achievements is a chronicle of disaster, treachery, and struggles for power." (p.4) Ahh, so the Thyatians don't have a monopoly on treachery after all, eh? "Oh, there were some human settlements - quickly conquered, their populations absorbed into the new Empire as slaves." (p.4) "Magic alone couldn't bring the Alphatians all the riches they wanted. . .so they conquered other peoples and forced them to send tribute." (p.5) "The Alphatians took gold mined from the mountains of Thyatis, herd-beasts and crops raised by the Thyatians, and the stout ships and seafaring knowledge developed by the Thyatians." (p.6) 1) The Thyatians had better shipbuilding and seafaring knowledge than the Alphatians, who the Alphatians learned from. So clearly the "teaching" thing wasn't all one way. 2) Aside from that, sounds a lot like Esterhold to me. Lovely people, those Alphatians. How admirable. "With the aid of a warrior (a wretch unacquainted with magic)." Nice attitude towards non-spellcasters. If you think they just express that towards non-Alphatian non-spellcasters, then read on. "Even so, the new Empire of Thyatis, under Emperor Zendrolion and later under Empress Valentia, recovered much more quickly from the war and prospered much sooner." (p.7) What's that about Alphatian superiority over others in all areas? "The pathetic Thyatian habit of extending full citizenship to anyone who could speak his name endeared that empire's ways to much of the island's population, making Alphatian conquest there difficult." (p.7) 1) Does that sound like life is better in Alphatia, if the population prefers Thyatis? 2) Lovely respect for people expressed again. "High-ranking members of the non-magical gentry tend to be treated more fairly and evenhandedly here [in Greenspur] than in Aasla and Sundsvall." (p.9) Oh, so you mean they *aren't* treated fairly and evenhandedly in Haven or Veritloch? What about Arogansa, perhaps they are treated well there. . .Ok, maybie not. But what about Trollhattan? Perhaps they're treated fairly in Trollhattan. Lets see: Trollhattan: "All non-magic-users must belong to the household of a magic-user or cleric. . .or be prey for magical experiments (or food for captured beasts)." Ok, perhaps not. That sounds even worse than in most of Alphatia. Lets check Stonewall: "Draco. This is perhaps the only city in Alphatia friendly to Fighters and Thieves. Fighters are tolerated and more or less fairly treated in Greenspur, and Thieves can be found aplenty in some outlying areas - but only Draco *likes* these sort of people." (p.9) "Non-magic-users are still limited to Gentry status, but they aren't oppressed here." (p.9) Which is what sets Stonewall apart and makes it unique/unlike other Alphatian Kingdoms. Contradicting attempts to generalize Stonewall's attitude to all of Alphatia. Ok, so just why *did* the Alphatians invite the Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings to come live in Alphatia? Was it open-minded tolerance? Stoutfellow: "The Alphatians like to have master craftsmen working for them; its easier than learning crafts-mastery yourself." (p.9) 1) Ahh, so *thats* why they gave them their own ghetto. 2) Real dedicated to self-improvement and skillfulness, those Alphatians. Moving on: Ambur: "Its not enough just to be a magic-user in Ambur: you must also be an actor, playwright, or stage director to be a celebrity here." Oh, so you can't just be a good commoner actor, playwright, or stage director: you must still be a magic-user first. Southeastern Alphatia: "Its here that one finds the many greenhouses, public or hidden, where plants such as the intoxicating zzonga-fruit are grown." (p.10) "Its a warm and lazy country (lazy for the rulers; of course the non-magical working class must work as hard here as anyplace else) full of small, pretty cities and hard-working peasants." (p.10) Central Alphatia: "Monsters and lawless men roam the thick woods, and no wanderer - other than a high-powered adventurer - is safe here." (p.10) Ah, so that's what the new Capital Kingdom is like. Bellissaria: "That region [Surshield] is sparsely occupied by a few Wizards (and their servant-communities)." (p.11) "Norwold is not actively seeking independence, but would welcome it if it came." (p.11) Such loyal devotion the Alphatian Empire inspires. Next section: "Galatia didn't think about that very long. 'Why, I'd appoint others to do all the work of administering the dominion while I kept to my own pursuits.' Tylion/"Terari": 'What if these others are untrustworthy?" Galatia: "They'd better not be! If I am so powerful, I can read their minds and *charm* their spirits and wipe them away if they betray me.' Terari: 'Good'." Makes the Alphatian ruling style sound like that of Bond movie villains... "Obviously not *all* Alphatians share this attitude. Many, especially those who have spent years adventuring out in the world (and have been exposed to many other cultures), may think and act differently - they may respect non-spellusers, may execute their responsibilities quickly and without reservation. But they are in the distinct minority." (p.13) "So the estate of a mighty wizard may have numerous family members with magical ability. .. and scores of non-magical servants and slaves." (p.14) "Wealthier commoners (Gentry and Freeman level) wear clothing in much the same style. . .but Alphatian sumptuary laws declare that only Aristocrats and higher classes may wear spider-silk in Alphatia. . .so lower-class *Kiharas*. . .are made of other materials, chiefly Bellissarian cotton." (p.14) I don't know of any other Mystaran nation with such restrictive laws, but alone I guess that's not so bad. What else does it say? "Servants and Slaves wear their hair as dictated to them. For most, it is cut short. It is a sign of favor to let a Servant or Slave grow his hair longer." (p.14) Interesting that Servants and Slaves are treated identically. So, does that sound just like life for most commoners in Karameikos, or Darokin, or Minrothad, or Ierendi, or (dare I say it), even Thyatis? Well, what else does it say? "Slaves and Servants eat what they are allotted, which usually isn't much." (p.14) Same pairing, Slaves and Servants in the same breath. Doesn't sound like the standard of living for most Alphatians is higher than elsewhere by that quote, either, btw. Together the above three quotes start to paint quite a picture of life in Alphatia at the low end, for the non-Aristocrat. . . Moving on, I said we'd get to Art in Alphatia again, and here we are: "Some Display Artists really are geniuses, or at least creative technicians; many, however, are deluded, egotistical, talents elitists who believe they are beautifying the world when instead they are wasting magical energy on purulent trash." (p.15) Ahh, so *that's* what the Beautification Project has produced. Alphatian cities, festooned with "art" like that, must be a wonder to behold. Perhaps we should include some details? Moving on, I'll be kind and simply skip over the description of Social Classes in Alphatia, especially the Slave and Servant Classes. Lets go instead to "Fighters" on that same page: "If he can do so, he can become a King of a nation of the Empire. . .but will still more or less be counted as a commoner when on continental Alphatia." (p.17) Not even as a Lord? My, what respect and regard this King earns through his or her service to the Empire. "Shamans and Wiccas, when tolerated (such as Trollhattan), bear the rank of Aristocrat." (p.18) So that means they aren't Aristocrats everywhere in Alphatia. We'll do the same thing, more or less, with the Law section as we did with the Social Class section, and be generous and largely skip over it, with the exception of noting the crime of "insolence", which isn't a crime in, say, Minrothad or Thyatis or Milenia (but I think it is in the Azcan Empire). Oh, and I'll note here that slaves who attempt to escape in Alphatia are executed by Imperial Law, while in Thyatis that is merely a Lesser Charge. Those Open-Minded Alphatians: "Within Alphatia and Bellissaria, few commoners and no nobles will suffer to have other languages spoken to them." (p.26) Galatia speaking to Tylion/"Terari" again: Galatia: "I *intend* to accomplish things, to create garments that will some day be looked upon as works of art, to go places and do things. . .and though I haven't done that so far, these servants kowtow to me as though I were a returning hero. They do the same to old Master Phileret, for all that he slurps zzonga-juice and whiles the whole day away in a drunken stupor." (p.27) Terari, to Galatia: "A pity your sort of ambition isn't more widespread. . ." (p.27) Meritocracy in Alphatia? (Oh, remind me if Mariella is a meritocrat or not; she's Gentry, I believe. By dint of her own skill, no doubt. Puh-leeze). How about those magical items, used to make life easier and more productive in Alphatia. Is that's true? Lets check the "tale of the tape": "These things cost a lot of money to make, and are often some wizards whimsical idea translated into reality - meaning they often have little practical usefulness, and cost fortunes which could have been used to improve the lot of one's vassals, servants, lands, and country. Truthfully, now, having a mansion that rolls around on wheels is interesting, but doesn't much advance the cause of humanity. "But this fact doesn't even occur to these wizards." (p.30) So in Alphatia they waste money that could be used to improve the lot of the nation, while in Thyatis they at least provide a bread dole. Lets now move on to the DotE DMSB. We'll do what we did with the Social Classes and the Laws, and skip page 2, even though it could be mined for rich quotes about Alphatia, some good but many bad. Arogansa: "Slaves and commoners may not even address aristocrats unless first recognized by them, under a penalty of twenty lashes. . ." (p.44) "At dusk, when the tourists go home, hordes of worker-slaves are released to clean the place up, all night long. . ." (p.44) What's up with that "released"? They're kept caged during the day, like animals? Lets skip Blackrock; too easy, like Social Classes and Law and Page 2 DotE DMSB. We'll skip Shraek in Blackrock, too. Same reason. Floating Ar: "Most communities are built atop the floating islands, and so the non-spell-casting human serfs are that much more dependent upon their spell-casting rulers." Serfs, eh? I hear tell Stefan doesn't allow Serfdom in Karameikos. "that much more" is also telling - implies not that the commoners are independent of their spellcasting Overlords in the other Kingdoms, but just that they are kept *more* under the thumb of them here. Greenspur: "Every sentient creature is supposed to carry papers of identification indicating his name, origin, current employment, and (if an outsider) how long his visit may last." (p.45) So much for "freedom", sounds like the Soviet Union during the Cold War. But at least they apply the laws fairly, which is more than one can say about the other Alphatian Kingdoms. Still, a "fair" application of Alphatia's legal code. . .well, lets just say it leaves a lot to be desired. Haven: "There are no large, flat surfaces (such as a building or city walls) totally bare of some sort of art; the whole kingdom, especially the capital city of Aasla, reeks with color." (p.45) Sounds tasteful. . .ug, get me a bucket. I can't imagine anyone'd be awed by such a gauche spectacle, but they might be stupified by it. Stonewall: What should I say about Stonewall, except to note in passing that it is largely ignored by most fans of Alphatia. And why? Two reasons: 1) it probably isn't "magical" enough for their tastes. 2) Stonewall stands in the way of "generalizing" a romanticized view of Alphatia to cover the entire Empire, because the things that make Stonewall stand out as unique are the very things that those who are fans of Alphatia want to imagine the *entire* Empire being like - no oppression, treats everyone fairly, opportunity for everyone everywhere. Noticing Stonewall makes that impossible, because Stonewall is special in Alphatia in how it differs from the other Kingdoms in treatment of non-spellcasters/commoners. Not that life is perfect in Stonewall - it's sort of like Karameikos or Thyatis (shock). So most fans of Alphatia treat it the same way as the Alphatians of the Isle of Dawn (p.36)treat things they don't want to face, by "not seeing it." Oh, a note on p.37: Slavery is not to be romanticized, but lets note that the worst-treated slaves aren't in Thyatis, as we've already noted, but in Alphatia (and the worst of all in Esterhold). "a small portion" of the Thyatian slave population might save to buy his or her freedom - but that possibility is not available to Alphatian slaves. And we've already plenty of quotes (above) on the status and lifestyle of slaves in Alphatia, that one hardly needs to be admonished to not romanticize *their* lives. Sundsvall in Veritloch: "In wealthier areas, the streets are kept meticulously clean by slave workers. In lower-income areas, the city takes on a decidedly more shabby experience." (p.47) Sounds like "untouchables" in Shajapur, and in these kind of pre-modern conditions, such a job is rife with disease and possibilities for infection. I guess it *does* beat out the mines of Esterhold, though. Mine slavery is the worst of all. We've already covered the Tylion IV quote, regarding his perception of how perfect (or imperfect) the Alphatian way of life is, so we'll move on. Pegataurs? "Pegataurs were created from the unholy bonding of Pegasi and Shiye elves." (p.56) Isn't that special. Zzonga? "In the Alphatian Empire, there are many zzonga-addicts. They waste all their money acquiring the stuff; under its effects, they cannot work." Alphatia? "It's a land of chaos and great opportunity - for spell-casters (magic-users, clerics, and elves). Non-spellcasters can make good lives here, too, but usually must be friends with aristocrats who will protect them." (p.59) How wonderful for them. A dream come true. "Fighters, thieves, dwarves, and halflings are Commoners in Alphatian society, and that can be a difficult thing to handle." (p.59) "In general, they are not being continually and cruelly discriminated against - they just can't achieve most higher social classes, and have to be careful of their manners around NPC aristocrats they don't know well." (p.59) Again, only in places like the Azcan Empire does the description have to re-assure people that it's possible to play in the area without being totally ground-down. One doesn't have to say that with respect to adventuring in, say, Karameikos or the Five Shires or Milenia or. . .the list goes on. Why not? Because it's simply a given that one wouldn't get the impression of continual oppression in those areas to the point that PCs have to be specifically excluded from some of the worst aspects of the social arrangement so that they can adventure there. Other Territories (since this has an impact on how to perceive life in Alphatia generally). The Alatians: "These islands were settled by non-magical Alphatians who wanted to make their lives away from the tyranny of Alphatian nobles -and they did." (p.61) The tyranny of Alphatian nobles driving people to get away from the Alphatian mainland doesn't make it sound like it's such a wonderful place for the non-magical Alphatians. Note that the Player's Guide to Thyatis says much the same thing about the settlement of Ochalea. Note also that Bellissaria, the place most akin to continental Alphatia, was also largely settled by people with less magical ability per the PWAs. The same factor at work? So, what drives Alphatian expansion and colonization? The desire to get away from the dang place (as Ericall did, despite being, for a commoner in Alphatia, fairly well off since he's the son of the Empress and all, his life couldn't have been as bad as that of most commoner Alphatians). Does that sound like life in continental Alphatia for commoners is to be preferred over anyplace else? Isle of Dawn: "They don't have the mainland Alphatian's attitude that non-spellcasters are commoners and unworthy - just that they're limited." (p.70) Ok, so that clarifies for us what the mainland Alphatian's attitude is towards non-spellcasters. Life in Alphatia, pleasant for non-spellcasters if they're rich, like elsewhere? Lets ask Ericall: ". . .and was the object of ridicule by Eriadna's magic-using children." "Ericall foolishly gave in to Lernal's pleas for a dominion because he knew what it felt like to be a non-magical noble's son in Alphatia. . ." (p.76) So, even if you're prominent, a member of the Imperial Family even, but can't cast spells, then life in Alphatia is. . . .crap. Esterhold. LOL. No, no. Like Blackheart, P.2 DotE DMSB, the Laws, and the description of the Social Classes, this one's just too easy a target, I am merciful and shall skip over it. Qeodhar: "Unfortunately for his plan, the Alphatians have no respect for non-spellcasters. . .his efforts to develop a 'dashing manner' have been regarded as insolence and arrogance." (p.80) The Yannivey Chain "When the Alphatians came, most Yanifey tribes were subjugated, their warriors turned into slaves of the Empire." (p.81) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:45:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: SV: [MYSTARA] Alphatia 1 & 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:47:17 +0200 Mzilikazi writes: > > >> Do we rip off the Thyatians???? << > > > > Of course you did, "Count" > > > > "Alphatian Citizens"? > > a Rip Off? The term Alphatian Citizen existed long before Thyatians > had > crawled out of their caves. If anybody has been ripping off here, it > is the > Thyatians. Uh... no. In DotE, in all the classes of Alphatia, there is no such thing as a citizen. There are slaves, servants, gentry, and aristocrats. The concept of "citizen" was invented by Empress Valentina(?) of Thyatis in the first century AC. > > "Alphatian Imperial Law" as protecting slaves from mistreatment? > > Alphatian Imperial Law was also a fact long before this concept was > even > thought about by the first Thyatian statesmen. Er... IIRC, there is _no_ mention of "Alphatian Imperial Law" in DotE, and indeed no indication that the Imperial government puts any kind of restraints on the individual Kingdoms. IIRC, killing your own slave isn't even a crime in Alphatia. (killing another's slave falls under property damage, IIRC). Slaves have no rights in Alphatia, and "free" non-spellcasters don't have much more. (All but the wealthiest commoners _have_ to be servants of an aristorat, and the killing of any commoner by a spellcaster requires only a small fine.) > > Alphatia as a place where fighters are respected by wizards? > > Respected: Yes, of course. They're respected in the same manner as > any > craftsman. Which is hardly any, from my impression of Alphatia... you are either a spellcaster or nothing. Now, IYC, you can do whatever you want. Alphatia can be an enlightened "United Federation of Kingdoms", where unworthy non-spellcasters are genrously cared for out of the goodness of the hearts ofthe wise spellcasters and the only reason it hasn't "liberated" all of Mystara is devotion to their "Prime Directive" of allowing the savages to make their own foolish mistakes... but IMO, an overwhelming majority of canon material (all the old modules- in M2 an Alphatian victory is set up as one of the consequences of _failure_ on the part of the PCs, DotE- the _definitive_ source on both empires and indeed partialy written from an Alphatian point of view, and for the most part PWA1- at least for the surface world) suggests that Alphatia is one of the most oppressive regimes this side of Hule. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to thank you for the manly apology. ----- Original Message ----- From: jason o'brien To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] apology > dear list members, > i wish to apologise for any offence given by my post in relation to the > favourite class thread. > especially to mischa my response to his reply was combatative and badly > thought out ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:00:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit H�vard wrote: > > http://www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri/misc/rakasta.htm > > How come the article is so short? :) > We want more! Sorry, I wrote the article only as an addendum to Franz L�wenroth, not as a complete guide to the Glantrian Rakasta. Anyway, as I wrote, there are few Rakasta in Glantri, and they don't interact much with the local humans, save for Franz, Sire Richard d'Ambreville and Sire Andr�-David de For�t. Rakasta are rare at best in the Known World, contrary to their canine counterpart, the Lupins, which are rather common. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:34:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] apology Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Fri, 27 October 2000, jason o'brien ha scritto: > > dear list members, > i wish to apologise for any offence given by my post in relation to the > favourite class thread. > especially to mischa my response to his reply was combatative and badly > thought out. > > i dont actually wish to get into a discussion on this topic. i of late have > been very grumpy and tired due to the organisation of my wedding, working > late, and a teething baby. these things have me in a nearly constant near > boiling point. > > i still say i hate clerics, but that is my opinion of them and not worth > going to war over. > my preference for the thief actually comes from my youth. > i grew up in a working class estate in dublin, where the majority of people > were on welfare. and it was a very meagre sum. this led to a lot of people > ending up practising the skills of thieves to get by. this has given me an > insight into this character and enabled me to play him well. > the mage i always see as something of a power monger,and if there is one > thing i have always liked in books and movies it's the villains.they alwas > seem to have the better lines.even good wizards though tend to have > power.this is what i like about wizards in general. > clerics i just can't play. unless i play them as evil, which is how i tend > to see them anyway. > > > so again i apologise. > > mortus. I'm sure that all the list members had already accept your apoligies like me. I made that question because I was interested in the favourite class of the members and I have appreciated every single answer that all of you gave. AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:55:56 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Karameikan Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, I was thinking about the economy of Karameikos and it occurred to me that Threshold's apparent reliance on logging seems strange for a medieval economy. If the people of Karameikos can easily travel just outside whatever settlement they live in and obtain enough wood for all their needs, why is there a demand for such distant lumber? It also occurred to me that there could be a valuable ornamental wood that is abundant around Threshold, but still, why are they able to sell so much of it? Does anyone know if this type of logging & export economy was present circa the RW medieval period? I know this may seem an unimportant detail to some, but I like the "seasoning" details of the setting to make sense. Any assistance would be much appreciated! ~Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:19:21 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/00 1:41:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > DotE on Alphatia, both in the sections biased in *favor* of it (the Player's > Guide; and looking at these quotes, if this is the best they can say about > their own country. . .), and in the impartial DM's section: ADVANTAGE THYATIS! Evil Genius strikes again! Just before I read this post I was going to congratulate you and the other frequent combatants of the "Empire Vs. Empire" debate for managing to stay brief and concise. Oh well, you did thoroughly support your position--even if you did shoot a dead horse full of magic missles (oh, & one or two fireballs too--I guess just 'to be sure' ). I enjoy the "Empire Vs. Empire" exchanges, but overkill just makes me lose interest in these types of posts. You wouldn't want to lose 20% of your audience would you? ;-> The inevitable Alphatian response will certainly win points with the MML if it manages to prove its case in half the length (or less). Congratulations to all those in the debate who came hard but remained brief (at least today's posts). [That includes Evil G., prior to "Truth . . .", so thanks! :-) ] ~Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:28:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Karameikan Economy In-Reply-To: <43.bf9fa3f.272b8c2c@cs.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:55 10/27/00 EDT, Shawn J. wrote: > Recently, I was thinking about the economy of Karameikos and it >occurred to me that Threshold's apparent reliance on logging seems >strange for a medieval economy. If the people of Karameikos can easily >travel just outside whatever settlement they live in and obtain enough wood >for all their needs, why is there a demand for such distant lumber? Maybe Highforge and the Elven estates control logging in their regions. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:14:24 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: [3E] Final stretch on Hin Master prestige class MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One question: Since hin masters turn undead and cast divine spells, they need a divine focus. But the hin don't worship immortals. I was thinking some sort of symbol of the Five Shires would work, but what would be appropriate? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:42:08 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/00 11:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > Alphatia: portrayed as a society where a non-spellcasting warrior (Broderick, > for instance) can rise to the top of the nation, respected and listened to by > all around him (including, especially, the Wizards), a place of oportunity > for all, where a warrior can overthrow the Emperor and become leader, be > listened to and regarded as an equal if not superior by the aristocrats ( Where is the above info referenced from? In the PWAs? Such a seemingly obvious contradiction to the way DoTE describes Alphatia, I must see to believe. Could you be so kind as to provide the source &, if possible, the exact page or at least a guess at the section where the info is found? Thanks in advance! Also, in the same post you mentioned how slave revolts are mentioned in PWA entries on Thyatis but not those on Alphatia. Perhaps Alphatia's lower two classes being devoid of spellcasters makes it near impossible to stage a revolt, let alone a sustain one or have a real, full-on resistance (even an underground one) against the overwhelming magical power of the upper classes. [Although, as I wrote that line, I decided that is exactly what will one day occur in my campaign--likely supported by some strongly humanitarian religion and its (spell-casting) clerics.] ~Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:22:29 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 [was Haldemar etc.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-27 5:32:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sverrebm@ONLINE.NO writes: > Thus I would say that the followers of the so-called Dupuisan Heresy(tm) > just have given Thyatis and Alphatia a treatment that more closely > corresponds with public oppinion. It is one thing to posit changes (Thyatis has gotten worse, the remains of Alphatia have gotten better since 1000 AC), but quite another to ignore the history and current situation (as of 1000 AC) described in DotE. "jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM (Evil Genius)" posted an extensive series of quotes from the pro-Alphatian parts of DotE that show just how far NACE would have had to develop from the old evil empire to be even halfway livable for mundaners in the post-WotI era. I will not deny that they made that change -- but I will laugh at anyone who suggests that life for mundaners in the "good old days" of the empire was some sort of paradise. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:52:39 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [3E] Final stretch on Hin Master prestige class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-27 11:06:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > One question: Since hin masters turn undead and cast divine spells, > they need a divine focus. But the hin don't worship immortals. I was thinking > some sort of symbol of the Five Shires would work, but what would be > appropriate? I thought they worshipped their three "High Heroes", Nob Nar, Coberham Shadowglint, and Brindorhin, as cited in Gaz 8, p. 19 of Player's Booklet. As for their holy symbol, how about a representation of a Crucible of Blackflame? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia >> Just before I read this post I was going to congratulate you and the other frequent combatants of the "Empire Vs. Empire" debate for managing to stay brief and concise. << Neither brief nor concise happens to be my middle name, usually (though I've tried to work on it). >> I enjoy the "Empire Vs. Empire" exchanges, but overkill just makes me lose interest in these types of posts. << Well, folks might recall that in one of my earlier "brief & concise" posts I *did* mention that I had 20K of quotes about Alphatia. >> The inevitable Alphatian response will certainly win points with the MML if it manages to prove its case in half the length (or less). << Oh, don't worry. I do predict it will be half the length or less, if and when it comes. Because there isn't that much good to say about Alphatia, so it'll certainly be short. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 >> Where is the above info referenced from? In the PWAs? Such a seemingly obvious contradiction to the way DoTE describes Alphatia, I must see to believe. Could you be so kind as to provide the source &, if possible, the exact page or at least a guess at the section where the info is found? Thanks in advance! << PWAs II & III; to whit, any Event featuring Broderick, especially the ones where the various Alphatian magic-user Kings listen to him in rapt attention, with near reverence, and end up putting him in leadership over them all. >> Perhaps Alphatia's lower two classes being devoid of spellcasters makes it near impossible to stage a revolt, let alone a sustain one or have a real, full-on resistance (even an underground one) against the overwhelming magical power of the upper classes. << It would certainly make it difficult. Thus the fact that they tend to flee when they get the chance (the Alphatian Empire is basically the result of the commoners attempting to flee the mainland and the aristocrats attempting to keep some control over them wherever they go, in effect) if revolt is difficult. "Resistance is Futile" - Alphatian Spellcasters = M-Borg. "Sez you" - Member of the Chainbreakers (or the Society of Freemen). "BIG SISTER IS WATCHING YOU" - Morale campaign launched by the Imperial Alphatian MiniVer ("Ministry of Veracity") just prior to the outbreak of the Wrath War. What was it that Winston said? Something along the lines of if their's any hope, it lays with the Proles? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:23:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-28 1:14:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > Oh, don't worry. I do predict it will be half the length or less, if and when > it comes. Because there isn't that much good to say about Alphatia, so it'll > certainly be short. 8-)~ Especially given that the first thing anyone with any pretensions to honesty would have to say is that "Having its main continent blasted into the Hollow World is the best thing that ever happened to Alphatia, whether you are referring to the main continent or the leftovers in the outer world." Certainly anything good about Alphatia began with that rather traumatic cataclysm. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:58:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: [3E] Final stretch on Hin Master prestige class In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:52 10/28/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >> One question: Since hin masters turn undead and cast divine spells, >> they need a divine focus. But the hin don't worship immortals. I was >thinking >> some sort of symbol of the Five Shires would work, but what would be >> appropriate? > >I thought they worshipped their three "High Heroes", Nob Nar, Coberham >Shadowglint, and Brindorhin, as cited in Gaz 8, p. 19 of Player's >Booklet. Grrr. You're going to make me dig through the whole Gaz now ... I can't find the first reference to them being unreligious, preferring to rely on themselves, but here's this, from page 31 of the main book: "ALfric can't quite believe that halflings can exist without an organized faith. He is sure that either they must have some secret cult (the details of which he must learn, to aid in eventually destroying it and converting the hin) or that they are desperate for some sort of spiritual guidance and leadership, in which case a full-scale mission from the Church of Karameikos should be sent to the Shires immediately." And then there's also the discussion of how they feel about the Ylari, which points to the same thing. I'll find the original citation and post that, too. >As for their holy symbol, how about a representation of a Crucible of >Blackflame? That works. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:51:32 +1000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: Scopes of the MML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 26/10/00 +0200, you wrote: >> I don't have a personal web page and I would also prefer to store >> information in a single, more visible place: mine was a suggestion for >> Shawn: would you add a summarized version of this, as well as other, >> discussions in your 'misc articles from MML' section (I can't rememberits >> name, now)? Maybe also a link in the Timeline/Almanac section would do. I >> think you can find a suitable place. Will you? > >I cant speak for Shawn, but I'm sure he is a pretty busy guy. If someone >else were to make the summary of the discussion and send it to Shawn, im >sure it would have a much greater chance of getting onto his website :) I've just come back from a conference in Melbourne and I've got lot's of stuff to do including actually updating the homepage. If sombody summarised this I'll put it up, otherwise it'll probably go on the backburner for a little while if I'm going to find it. shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:51:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is one thing to posit changes (Thyatis has gotten worse, the remains > of Alphatia have gotten better since 1000 AC), but quite another to ignore > the history and current situation (as of 1000 AC) described in DotE. > > Evil Genius posted an extensive > series of quotes from the pro-Alphatian parts of DotE that show > just how far NACE would have had to develop from the old evil > empire to be even halfway livable for mundaners in the post-WotI > era. I will not deny that they made that change I think that historically there cannot be such a dramatic change in so few years without any countereffect. If you see the road that led France to become a Republic, you will understand what I mean: it took them 100 years, with two Emperors and a Monarchic Restauration, to be finally free of the aristocrats. Now, I don't want to seem a pathetic Thyatiophile that wants to see Alphatia destroyed, but the scenario proposed by Ann Dupuis in the rebirth of Alphatia on the surface is ridiculous at best. The fact is that, after 2 years (and much less, since we still have Zandor on throne), we have a peaceful country where all wrongs have been righted, and this continued in the MA (that is, anyway, not Canon). If you think about it, it's nearly impossible...the process would, at best, take several years just to deal with immediate revolts etc. that happen in the Alphatian regions, unless we assume that if the Council of the Thousand Wizards is reduced to a handful of men, these either flee, in a typical Alphatian way, the sparse settlements that remain, or decide that they are so few that with all their might it's better anyway to make an agreement with the underlings. I will say, however, that the most ridiculous thing of all the PWAs ( apart from the fact that in Thyatis everybody seems to revolt after a war that they, in the end, won, while in a half-sunken and deprived of wizards surface Alphatian Empire everybody become happy) is the conduction of the Esterhold situation. If somebody wants to know why, I will give them a detailed account (but it will be a long one too). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:56:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Chronicles of Nentsun- Chapter Three: Song of the Wind (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CHAPTER THREE: SONG OF THE WIND Although the fighting schools were opposed to this law, because they had to find the children with the best otential to become Masters to provide the stability of the engines, they were able to accomplish their duties without particular problems. After some decades, as the clerical power dwindled, the current generals resettled their troops in the countries, carefully avoiding the theocratic intrusions, and ultimately they managed to enter in possession of the kingdoms. The recently formed confederation was split in twelve dominions already in 523 AC, and marriages with the noble families of the Inner Circle led soon descendants of the ancient families on the thrones. This leadership of the Inner Circle, however, resulted in malcontent and hostility in the regions of the Outer Circle, that were poorer and often left to their own, and subjected to taxes needed only to enrich the already self-sufficient northern territories. The noble families, moreover, changed the ancient confederated laws that prevented their members from entering the fighting schools. The clergies of Nentsun, Simurgh, and of the Vixiferen (the five Immortal Guardians of Nentsun), whose high hierarchies and main temples were all in the Inner Circle, were corrupted and prone to the wills of the kings. The only result of the Warchild that still was visible was the tightness of the alliance between the leaders of the twelve kingdoms. However, the leaders of the churches of the Astral Forces (five elemental Immortals who completed the Nentsunian pantheon), who still lived in the Outer Circle, were indipendent and active as ever, and planned to change the situation. The most determined of the leaders was Micael Scryv, Songdancer (high priest) of the Wind. He told that he had been visited in his dreams by the Immortal Nentsun, who told him that he was enraged with his unfaithful clergy. He told him to raise an army from the Outer Circle, conquer the city of Wolven (that represented, in the eyes of the Outer Circle inhabitants, the power of the hated Inner aristocracies), and speak in the name of all the Nentsunian pantheon. This he did. He conquered Wolven and killed Alsun, King of Wolven, then he proclaimed the Outer Circle free of the Inner, and told that the Immortals of Nentsun wanted them to change, or the wrath of the gods would strike upon them to destroy the land (575 AC). The Inner Circle kingdoms� troops abandoned the Outer Circle, but this wasn�t enough to end the hostilities among the two groups. Years passed. Then the rage of Scryv came. He revealed himself to be an Avatar of the Wind, and sent a message to all the kings and rulers of the land, saying that he left them 60 days to stipulate peace with each other. All those who dared to disobey would be killed. Most rulers laughed at his claims. But whatever was the truth, all rulers who disagreed, and they were not few, disappeared. All of them disappeared in their rooms during windy nights, the only trace being open windows in their rooms. Scryv himself was never found after the events, but the new rulers decided better to listen to his words. Since that they, Scryv has become another name by which the Wind is known in Nentsun (582 AC). Minor skirmishes were fought, but Nentsun remained more or less at peace for about one and a half century. During this time, the School of Nentsun changed name into the School of the Southern Cross. NOVA LEPIDOPTERA One of the most curious, but unfortunately sad and disastrous events of Nentsunian history is the short appearance of the Nova Lepidoptera on Mystara (723-725 AC). The Nova Lepidoptera�s full history is not known, but they were gargantoid butterflies more than 30 meters long. Appearantly, these intelligent butterflies arrived through space travel. Beautiful to the sight, a couple of these giant butterflies were sighted even by a Thyatian ship and a report where they were called �Nova Lepidoptera� (the report can still be found in some libraries with interest in biology and explorations in Thyatis and Glantri). The creatures seemed to be pacific and tried to stay away of the bipedal settlements. Some adventurers organized hunts to the Lepidoptera, but they were shy and managed to hide and remain unseen probably thanks to magical abilities. However, the matter changed much when the first grubs were born. The grubs reached immense proportion and were not intelligent. Left on their own by the parents, they brought havoc to small villages, until adventurers, members of the fighting orders and mercenary troops decided to get rid of them. When the Lepidoptera finally understood what was happening to their little ones, they were enraged and a real war started among them and the humans. After two years, however, the few survivors decided to leave Mystara and sought refuge in space again. The sad aspect of the story is that apart some damage to the fields and the forests, the grubs hadn�t harmed anyone. A careful intervention by sages, wizards and druids would maybe have found a solution, a compromise. Instead, wizards encouraged unscrupolous adventurers to kill the Lepidoptera to provide them with new materials that could be used in their researches, and druids went paranoid about the damages to the forests. A LAST NOTE: A game: try to find out references to songs in the titles of my Chronicles of Nentsun. The one who gets more than two will receive a present... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:15:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > while in a half-sunken and deprived of wizards surface Alphatian > Empire everybody become happy) Ah! I found myself the solution to the problem! On the surface THERE ARE NO MORE WIZARDS!!! That's why they are all happy. (grin) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 02:07:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wanted to go with Charisma, but Intelligence + Wisdom was the formula used in Gaz 8 ... Feedback desperately needed. DENIAL [Special] Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, +2 Base Will Saving Throw Bonus, Intelligence 12+ or Wisdom 12+ Benefit: Once a day, a halfling in the Five Shires can deny the use of magic at close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). The ability works like spell turning (see page 255 in the Player's Handbook), with the number of spell levels being turned equal to the combination of the halfling's intelligence and wisdom modifiers (page 8, ibid). Unlike the spell turning spell, the ability only works on one spell a day, and spells are not necessarily reflected back at the caster. Rather, the spell is deflected in the same manner as grenadelike weapons are (page 138, ibid), 5 feet per spell level. Denial has no effect on touch range spells and can only be used within the Five Shires. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:12:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Karameikan Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Recently, I was thinking about the economy of Karameikos and it > occurred to me that Threshold's apparent reliance on logging seems > strange for a medieval economy. If the people of Karameikos can easily > travel just outside whatever settlement they live in and obtain enough wood > for all their needs, why is there a demand for such distant lumber? It also > occurred to me that there could be a valuable ornamental wood that is > abundant around Threshold, but still, why are they able to sell so much of it? > Does anyone know if this type of logging & export economy was present > circa the RW medieval period? I know this may seem an unimportant > detail to some, but I like the "seasoning" details of the setting to make > sense. Any assistance would be much appreciated! > ~Shawn J. It does seem odd at first, but when you think about it, maybe not so. The map shows that there are no major forest areas around Threshold so this would suggest that the lumber is coming mainly from the mountains nearby. This would also suggest that the wood found there would more than likely fall into the "rare" catergory, and thus would be more expensive. With a virtually free transport system (they send their logs down river), this would make a good "export" trade for a town so far inland as Threshold (and not forgetting a good way for Baron Halaran to pay his salt tax :) and ship that "special little something" to the Duke :) ). :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:39:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Aaron E Nowack >On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:47:17 +0200 Mzilikazi writes: >> > >> Do we rip off the Thyatians???? << >> > Of course you did, "Count" >> > "Alphatian Citizens"? >> a Rip Off? The term Alphatian Citizen existed long before Thyatians had >> crawled out of their caves. If anybody has been ripping off here, it is the >> Thyatians. >Uh... no. In DotE, in all the classes of Alphatia, there is no such thing as a citizen. There are slaves, servants, gentry, and aristocrats. > The concept of "citizen" was invented by Empress Valentina(?) of Thyatis in the first century AC. The concept of "citizen" as a class has been invented by Empress Valentia. The word "[Alphatian] citizen" used to refer to "[Alphatian] people" or to "any indicidual [Alphatian] regardless of class" was used in the context of Alphatia in DotE several times, and also in PWA1 (by Allston) and probably in WotI as well, so it isn't a "Dupuisian Heresy"(tm). It is not, however, a class in the context of Alphatia, unlike in Thyatis. >> > "Alphatian Imperial Law" as protecting slaves from mistreatment? >> Alphatian Imperial Law was also a fact long before this concept was even >> thought about by the first Thyatian statesmen. >Er... IIRC, there is _no_ mention of "Alphatian Imperial Law" in DotE, and indeed no indication that the Imperial government puts any kind of restraints on the individual Kingdoms. IIRC, killing your own slave isn't even a crime in Alphatia. (killing another's slave falls under property damage, IIRC). Slaves have no rights in Alphatia, and "free" non-spellcasters don't have much more. (All but the wealthiest commoners _have_ to be servants of an aristorat, and the killing of any commoner by a spellcaster requires only a small fine.) There are imperial laws in Alphatia. They are few though, and a large liberty is given on individual kingdoms to decide their own laws, sometimes to the point that they don't live by the few imperial laws at all. A very federal system, not unlike the RW USA. Justice isn't an imperial law, so that crimes and sentences vary by kingdom. Imperial laws don't protect slaves. In fact they don't protect anyone specifically but the notion of the Rightful Order of Things - the Alphatian Empire, the supremacy of spellcasters, etc; in other words those things that make the Alphatian Empire what it is, and keep it going (maintain the status quo, the perfection that the Alphatian Empire has achieved in its millenia of existence). Slaves are property, like a chair, or an animal, or a magic item, with value depending on the slave's abilities/talents. There is no reason to protect them any more than they are worth it. That they are sentient beings is irrelevant - so is my pegasus, or my mek, or my intelligent sword, and all those last three are probably more useful than the former one and thus more worth preserving and protecting. In Alphatia like elswhere value is protected, but the Alphatians give different values to things than shorter-lived nations or empires do - in that system spellcasters are worth a lot, as do exceptional magical creations, but a mere untalented commoner is worth little indeed; no value is given to life, and especially sentient life, just because it is alive, but based on its merits, with the biggest merit being magical ability of course. >> > Alphatia as a place where fighters are respected by wizards? > >> Respected: Yes, of course. They're respected in the same manner as any > craftsman. >Which is hardly any, from my impression of Alphatia... you are either a spellcaster or nothing. True; real value is in magic. A good fighter is respected like a good craftsman, but this is little compared to even the least talented spellcaster. As it should be. >Now, IYC, you can do whatever you want. Alphatia can be an enlightened "United Federation of Kingdoms", where unworthy non-spellcasters are genrously cared for out of the goodness of the hearts ofthe wise spellcasters and the only reason it hasn't "liberated" all of Mystara is devotion to their "Prime Directive" of allowing the savages to make their own foolish mistakes... but IMO, an overwhelming majority of canon material (all the old modules- in M2 an Alphatian victory is set up as one of the consequences of _failure_ on the part of the PCs, DotE- the _definitive_ source on both empires and indeed partialy written from an Alphatian point of view, and for the most part PWA1- at least for the surface world) suggests that Alphatia is one of the most oppressive regimes this side of Hule. Alphatia isn't oppressive, it's the most freedom-giving nation. To those that matter, of course. The rest, the ungifted, are unconsequential, and their ridiculous potential used to sustain those that matter and constitute the only real value of the empire. Other nations give their inferior citizens too much leeway, and don't exploit them as they should, so that those nations can never achieve the greatness that Alphatia has. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 07:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Citizens of Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the confusion here stems from the modern understanding of the word "citizen" as opposed to a more classical understanding. James, can you shed some light here? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:38:33 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > I wanted to go with Charisma, but Intelligence + Wisdom was the formula > used in Gaz 8 ... > Feedback desperately needed. > > DENIAL [Special] > Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, +2 Base Will Saving > Throw Bonus, Intelligence 12+ or Wisdom 12+ > Benefit: Once a day, a halfling in the Five Shires can deny the use of > magic at close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). What kind of magic would be affected? > The ability works like > spell turning (see page 255 in the Player's Handbook), with the number of > spell levels being turned equal to the combination of the halfling's > intelligence and wisdom modifiers (page 8, ibid). Why does RANGE is affected by his/her level and the number of spell levels, by modifiers? That seems fine enough. Just wondering if a mix of them both couldn't be used for both or something. > Unlike the spell turning > spell, the ability only works on one spell a day, and spells are not > necessarily reflected back at the caster. Rather, the spell is deflected in > the same manner as grenadelike weapons are (page 138, ibid), 5 feet per > spell level. Denial has no effect on touch range spells and can only be > used within the Five Shires. Why not really refleting the spell within the 5 Shires and only defending/deflecting abroad? I have a high-level Wild Mage NPC, friend of Terari, his name is Cillidox (yes, yes, Joshuan Gallidox, I know, it IS a joke). I would love him to use this thing. Ina a very random way... ;-) Or refleting very close to his home and only deflecting in other parts of the Shires? Well... Always creative, Beau! I liked it. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:41:54 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Karameikan Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phillip Jones wrote: > > It does seem odd at first, but when you think about it, maybe not so. The > map shows that there are no major forest areas around Threshold so this > would suggest that the lumber is coming mainly from the mountains nearby. > This would also suggest that the wood found there would more than likely > fall into the "rare" category, and thus would be more expensive. With a > virtually free transport system (they send their logs down river), this > would make a good "export" trade for a town so far inland as Threshold I seems to be a good explanantion to me. If the trees come from a - not so, actually - higher latitude place... and higher, as well... they might be different from the ones found near Mirros and whereabouts. >(and > not forgetting a good way for Baron Halaran to pay his salt tax :) and ship > that "special little something" to the Duke :) ). > > :) I missed this one. (???) vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:00:01 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: SV: [MYSTARA] Alphatia 1 & 2 In-Reply-To: <20001028103910.10325.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] > The word "[Alphatian] citizen" used to refer to "[Alphatian] > people" or to "any > indicidual [Alphatian] regardless of class" Exactly! All permanent inhabitants of a kingdom of the Alphatian empire is a citizen! [snip] > IIRC, killing your own slave > isn't even a crime in Alphatia. (killing another's slave falls under > property damage, IIRC). Not entirely true. According to DOtE, only Aristocrats are allowed to kill slaves. This is only natural, as most spellcasters are able to make such judgements themselves. It does however very well protect the rights of slave-owners not to have their most valuable slaves killed, as the owner of a very useful slave could set the price very high. [snip] > Alphatia isn't oppressive, it's the most freedom-giving nation. > To those that > matter, of course. The rest, the ungifted, are unconsequential, and their > ridiculous potential used to sustain those that matter and > constitute the only > real value of the empire. Other nations give their inferior > citizens too much > leeway, and don't exploit them as they should, so that those > nations can never > achieve the greatness that Alphatia has. So true, my friend. Thyatis is a prime example of this. No nation can ever prosper if one is to spend the nations resources on sustaining any being, regardless of it's usefulness. [snip] -Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:20:53 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Shawn J." wrote: > > 'to be sure' ). I enjoy the "Empire Vs. Empire" exchanges, but overkill just > makes me lose interest in these types of posts. You wouldn't want to lose > Well, obviously people "lose interest" when someone proves his point (which happens to be opposite to theirs) in a lengthy, detailed manner. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:45:29 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hail Mystarans! We at the GPD had a little poll as to the sex symbols of Glantri. Here is what we came up with. You are welcome to agree/disagree, rant/rave, comment/question our choices. :) Female Sex Symbols of Glantri 5. Inguin di Corenveni, Mistress of Enchantment. A Caurenzan belladona without the poison. 4. Monique d'Ambreville, Heiress to the Principality of Nouvelle Averoigne. Being heiress to one of the richest principalities does have its appeal! 3. Genevieve de Sephora, Comtesse du Touraine. Quite popular among those with mature tastes. 2. Dian de Moriamis, former Vicomtesse de Malinbois. Her meteoric rise to popularity made her shoot past the classical beauty of the other Sylaire noblewoman. 1. Szasza Markovitch, Baroness of Vladimirov. Her sex is eternal and without rival. Male Sex Symbols of Glantri 5. Ricardo de Belcadiz, brother to Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz. Nothing says sexy like a hot-blooded hidalgo. 4. Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, Prince of Boldavia. The classical tall, dark, and handsome. He will never be off the list! 3. Urmahid Krinagar, Prince of Bramyra. No question about that Krondaharan mystique! 2. Diego de Belcadiz, brother to Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz. What makes one brother sexier than the other? Sense of adventure! 1. Boris Gorevitch-Woszlany, brother to Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany. Outsexes his brother, hands down! More charming with the ladies... and quite popular with the men as well! Kit Navarro GPD Archduke www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heh, what is this, the Newsweek of Mystara?? ----- Original Message ----- From: Francisco V. Navarro To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols > Hail Mystarans! > > We at the GPD had a little poll as to the sex symbols of Glantri. Here is > what we came up with. You are welcome to agree/disagree, rant/rave, > comment/question our choices. :) > > Female Sex Symbols of Glantri > 5. Inguin di Corenveni, Mistress of Enchantment. A Caurenzan belladona > without the poison. > 4. Monique d'Ambreville, Heiress to the Principality of Nouvelle Averoigne. > Being heiress to one of the richest principalities does have its appeal! > 3. Genevieve de Sephora, Comtesse du Touraine. Quite popular among those > with mature tastes. > 2. Dian de Moriamis, former Vicomtesse de Malinbois. Her meteoric rise to > popularity made her shoot past the classical beauty of the other Sylaire > noblewoman. > 1. Szasza Markovitch, Baroness of Vladimirov. Her sex is eternal and without > rival. > > Male Sex Symbols of Glantri > 5. Ricardo de Belcadiz, brother to Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz. Nothing > says sexy like a hot-blooded hidalgo. > 4. Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, Prince of Boldavia. The classical tall, > dark, and handsome. He will never be off the list! > 3. Urmahid Krinagar, Prince of Bramyra. No question about that Krondaharan > mystique! > 2. Diego de Belcadiz, brother to Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz. What makes > one brother sexier than the other? Sense of adventure! > 1. Boris Gorevitch-Woszlany, brother to Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany. > Outsexes his brother, hands down! More charming with the ladies... and quite > popular with the men as well! > > > Kit Navarro > GPD Archduke > www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:52:05 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-28 10:28:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: > Female Sex Symbols of Glantri > 5. Inguin di Corenveni, Mistress of Enchantment. A Caurenzan belladona > without the poison. > 4. Monique d'Ambreville, Heiress to the Principality of Nouvelle Averoigne. > Being heiress to one of the richest principalities does have its appeal! > 3. Genevieve de Sephora, Comtesse du Touraine. Quite popular among those > with mature tastes. > 2. Dian de Moriamis, former Vicomtesse de Malinbois. Her meteoric rise to > popularity made her shoot past the classical beauty of the other Sylaire > noblewoman. > 1. Szasza Markovitch, Baroness of Vladimirov. Her sex is eternal and without > rival. Methinks the New Averoignese engaged in some ballot box stuffing here, as three of their ladies are on this list. No lady from Belcadiz made the cut? Nor did Princess Dolores? I will have to leave it to the ladies to comment on the male list, but it seems to be a bit better balanced in its choices at first glance. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:52:03 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-28 5:15:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, To generalize this one a bit, we may want to change the requirement to "resident of Halfling homeland", of which the Five Shires would be the only such region that qualifies in the Known World region of Brun. Then that ability could be selectively extended to other Halfling homelands such as Leeha in Norwold. > +2 Base Will Saving Throw Bonus, I think that should be changed to either base attack bonus or number of hit dice to reflect the fact that the character using this feat takes some damage from it (a point that was left out of your description, by the way). > Intelligence 12+ or Wisdom 12+ These requirements should be odd if present at all. Maybe the easiest way to handle this would be to have the feat affect a number of spell levels equal to sum of modifiers, with a total of zero or less being sufficient to turn cantrips only. Circumstance bonuses (such as degree of attachment to person or place being defended) could increase the maximum spell level to be affected. While we are at it -- do we wish to add anything to cover spells that are partially turned? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:52:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [3E] Final stretch on Hin Master prestige class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-28 3:08:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > Grrr. You're going to make me dig through the whole Gaz now ... > I can't find the first reference to them being unreligious, > preferring to > rely on themselves, but here's this, from page 31 of the main book: "ALfric > can't quite believe that halflings can exist without an organized faith. He > is sure that either they must have some secret cult (the details of which > he must learn, to aid in eventually destroying it and converting the hin) > or that they are desperate for some sort of spiritual guidance and > leadership, in which case a full-scale mission from the Church of > Karameikos should be sent to the Shires immediately." > And then there's also the discussion of how they feel about the > Ylari, > which points to the same thing. > I'll find the original citation and post that, too. I think these two quotes point to the lack of a visible organized church among the Halflings, not to a lack of faith in the Immortals. In other words, the Halflings keep their worship services so private and secret from Humans that most Humans assume that they have no religion whatsoever -- and the dependence of low level Halflings on Human Clerics for their healing needs only serves to perpetuate that mis- understanding. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:59:56 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-10-28 11:12:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET writes: > Heh, what is this, the Newsweek of Mystara?? More like a cross between People magazine and the National Enquirer, I would think. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:32:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Origin of the Rakasta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Due to the flood of requests for information about the Rakasta (that is, three in a month...), I decided to write this still-not-too-long article about the origins and diffusion of the Rakasta. Note that only Mystaran Rakasta are considere herein, not Myoshimans. Origin of the Rakasta Here are two theories on the origin and diffusion of these feline humanoids, by two scholars with very different points of view. ======== I Theory The origin of Rakasta, excerpt from "An essay on intelligent feline species", by Herr Franz L�wenroth, Baron of Adleturm, Klarmont 1003, Glantri "...as we could verify from accurate interviews of natives of the Khurish Massif, the Rakasta do not have a clear memory of their history, believing to be autoctonous to the mountains they inhabit today. This is all but accurate, as we have been able to establish through the accurate analysis of the Rakastan migratory fluxes that their origins must be located in the southernmost jungles of the continent known as Skothar, which lies in the Far East, beyond the Empire of Alphatia. We were able to obtain clear evidence of this, thanks to two valiant contributors, who prefer to remain anonymous. They brought from that region the skull of an outstanding specimen of the Rakastan kind, a giant among the felines, whose race is clearly extinct from the most ancient times, as no record of a similar being can be found even in the oldest chronicles of Skothar. From this primordial progenitor, the mighty Sherkasta came, who ranged far in the eastern regions, reaching the mountains which form an impassable border to the steppes of Skothar. There they thrived, giving birth to new breeds. As they moved northwards and later westwards, these proud felines adapted to the frigid climate of the arctic lands, and the Lynxman was born, a Rakasta able to cross the frozen wastes to the Norwold, were they currently live. This Lynxman must be, we have no doubt about it, the ancestor of the common Rakasta found here in our mountains, and adapted to a warmer but somewhat drier climate." ======= II Theory The Simbasta, confidential report by Herr Berndt Von Staufenberg, AC 1016, Vanya's Rest. "...since the last forays of Heldannic explorers in Norwold, we have proof of the existance of Rakastan tribes in Northern Brun. We were already aware of the presence of these felines in Southern Brun and Ochalea, though this information was usually considered useless. Now, we are able to link all those Rakastan tribes to a single root: the Simbasta of the Davanian Savannah. The lesser breeds of Brun are, apparently, the regressed descendants of the Simbasta. The clue which leads us to this conclusion is a custom deeply rooted in the Simbasta traditions, that is the ousting of known cowards. We believe that groups of outcast Simbasta, unable to join other prides, due to the Simbastan habit of cutting the cowards' tails, the equivalent of branding among humans, were forced to move outside the borders of the ancestral lands of their kind. There, they had to adapt to different conditions, and some more successful groups were eventually able to survive, acquiring physical forms which resembled their lifestyle and low moral fibre. Eventually, a growing fear of their former kind pushed these tribes to overcome their innate fear of water, and cross the Sea of Dread to Ochalea and Thanegioth. From there, they moved on to the continent, but were dispersed by the more powerful human tribes." ======== Origin of the Rakasta as the Immortals know it The first Rakasta appeared in the Isle of Cestia, between the Great Rain of Fire and the Varellyan invasion. The tale of their creation by Ka is exposed in "Rakasta of Mystara", by Bruce Heard. When the Varellyans arrived, the Rakasta breeds had already differentiated enough, with proto-Simbasta (essentially advanced Cave Rakasta) leaving for the western continent of Davania, and proto-Sherkasta (an advanced breed of Rakastodons) navigating through the daedalus of islands north-east of Cestia. The primitive races still lived on Cestia, but they were hunted to extinction by the Varellyan colonists. Davanian Migration This first migration started from the coastal region near Cestia, then it moved to the Meghala Kimata plateau, to the northern regions of Davania and to Ochalea. Meanwhile, wild Rakasta species started appearing in the northern regions, as the offsprings of outcast Simbasta, as explained by Von Staufenberg. From the Meghala Kimata, the Rakasta moved to Izonda and the Arm of the Immortal. As the northermost species reached the sea, they developed into the domestic and mountain pardasta breeds, which crossed the sea from Ochalea and Northern Davania to Bellayne and the Known World. A few Davanians crossed the Seas to Bellissaria, and then moved to the Steppes of Jen, where they became the local Fast Runner breeds. The northernmost tribes then mixed with the Skotharian Rakasta coming from Nentsun. Skotharian Migration This migration started from the south-western Tangor, then moved norh and east. As they reached further, the Rakasta were subjugated by the Rakshasa. At this time, Sherkasta evolved from Rakastodon Fatalis, and struggled to break free from the fiends' control. Rakastodon died out as they were superceded by the more intelligent Sherkasta. Many weaker Sherkasta, unable to fight the Rakshasa, were pushed north-west, toward Nentsun. From there, the new wild Rakasta moved west, they mixed with a few Davanians coming through the Alphatian lands, and developed into the Lynxman and Snow Pardasta subspecies, who then crossed the frozen seas to Norwold. The two Theories Both theories are inherently flawed, in that they miss the dual origin of the modern Rakasta from both the descendants of Ba-stet and Kum-rah, the original Rakasta couple created by the Immortal Ka. L�wenroth's theory fails in the end, where it does not explain well the origin of mountain rakasta of Glantri. Moreover, it is unable to explain the origin of western Brun Rakasta, who are clearly unknown to the author. On the other hand, the second theory describes the Davanian migration, though the Heldannic writer is unaware of the westernmost Rakastan population. The major migratory route was through the Arm of the Immortal, while the Sea of Dread migration was slower, and most Rakasta remained in Ochalea. Also, it fails in explaining the origin of the Lynxmen, who came from northern Skothar. ======= Rakastan Bibliography Bruce Heard, "Rakasta of Mystara,"Dragon Magazine #247, May 1998 David Cook and Tom Moldvay, X1 "Isle of Dread," 1981 Tom Moldvay, X2 "Castle Amber," 1981 Tim Beach and Bruce Heard, "Savage Coast Campaign Book," 1996 -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Citizens Mystara wrote: >> I think the confusion here stems from the modern understanding of the word"citizen" as opposed to a more classical understanding. James, can you shed some light here? << Even in a more classical understanding there is a difference between Citizenship and non-Citizenship. The Athenians didn't use "Athenian Citizens" to refer to the whole body of the people - there were Athenian Citizens, and then a variety of "others" (women, slaves, people who didn't own land, resident aliens known as Metics, etc); similarly in Sparta there were the Spartans themselves (citizens of the Spartan state), and then a vast helotry and perioikoi. "Citizen" denotes someone with specific rights, including especially the ability to participate in the political processes of the state in some manner. Anything that lacks that is NOT a citizen (thus, even Alphatia's Aristocracy really can't be classed as "citizens" of Alphatia, technically, because though they have freedoms that the lower classes of commoners don't have, they lack any formal, systemetized input into the political processes that govern Alphatia; there is, for example, no voting for members of the Grand Council; one has to get to Lord before an Alphatian has any input into political matters, and at that point one is speaking of a oligarchy, properly understood, rather than a body of citizenry). Non-Citizenry are properly termed, in general, as Subjects. Now, it is *here* where in modern times there might be some confusion, because one can both be a "Loyal Subject of the Queen of England" (such as Rob) and a British Citizen (because these Subjects of the Queen can vote for Members of Parliament, for example; I'm still not sure that "British Citizen" is used formally, but technically it is true that they are Citizens of Britain as well as Crown Subjects - and it is the latter which is only the case in a formal, but not really an actual, sense anymore, since the powers of the Monarchy are limited at best). In Mystara, Citizenship as such (sloppy and improper uses of the word notwithstanding, and then coupled with misleading and inaccurate uses intended to dupe gullible readers, such as references to Esterhold Jennites "no longer being denied Alphatian Citizenship") exists in places like Milenia (among landowners) and Thyatis (following the Citizenship Proclamation of Valentia - something she did not learn or copy from Alphatia, which had no such animal. Later a small part of Alphatia did copy *Thyatis* in this respect, as the inhabitants of the Confederacy of Dunadale could be called Citizens of Dunadale - but not of Alphatia - as they have the ability to vote for leaders, etc. This was done because Thyatian Citizenship was so attractive, they had to do something to keep control over the region), and in Darokin there are Citizens properly understood. In other places, one is generally a Subject of some kind - perhaps a well treated one (I.E. Subjects in Karameikos, whatever else I might say about King Stefan, live ok), or perhaps not (Subjects in Alphatia, the Servant class, don't really have it that good. Folks can disagree, but read DotE). Slaves don't really fit even as "Subjects", though when speaking in broad terms they can be thrown into the category for the sake of simplicity. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: "Freedom-Loving" Alphatia? Herve Musseau wrote: but a mere untalented commoner is worth little indeed; no value is given to life, and especially sentient life, just because it is alive, but based on its merits, with the biggest merit being magical ability of course. >> > Alphatia as a place where fighters are respected by wizards? > >> Respected: Yes, of course. They're respected in the same manner as any > craftsman. >Which is hardly any, from my impression of Alphatia... you are either a spellcaster or nothing. True; real value is in magic. A good fighter is respected like a good craftsman, but this is little compared to even the least talented spellcaster. As it should be. >Now, IYC, you can do whatever you want. Alphatia can be an enlightened "United Federation of Kingdoms", where unworthy non-spellcasters are genrously cared for out of the goodness of the hearts ofthe wise spellcasters and the only reason it hasn't "liberated" all of Mystara is >> Alphatia is one of the most oppressive regimes this side of Hule. << >> Alphatia isn't oppressive, it's the most freedom-giving nation. To those that matter, of course. The rest, the ungifted, are inconsequential << Which is to say that Alphatia is highly opressive for the vast majority of people (except in Stonewall); in Alphatia, too, the word "freedom" is misused and misapplied, because, as Herve said, they only value "freedom" for "those that matter" - thus, in Alphatia what is called "freedom" are just the privileges of the Aristocracy (lots of places have given wide priviledges to the aristocracy, but we don't call such places freedom-loving). Karameikos, despite for example the fact that it doesn't have either a Citizenry or even an Alphatian-style Aristocracy, has more respect for freedom and liberty than Alphatia (restrictive laws are rare, and what laws that do exist apply to all). Same with Darokin and the Shires, among others. It is even very much accurate to say that Thyatis respects Liberty more than Alphatia - because, though Thyatis has a large slave class (like Alphatia), for the majority of people (Thyatian Citizens), their rights and freedoms are respected in ways not found in Alphatia (where the Servants, like the slaves, must have a master, though they do have the ability to change masters, unlike the slaves; and where the Servants, like the slaves, wear their hair as dictated to them by their masters; and where the Servants, like the slaves, eat what their masters alot them, which usually isn't much. So if they are under the thumb of their masters even in the details of what they eat and what they we! ! ar and how they style their hair, one cannot say that they have freedom at all, and it is absurd to say they are not living in an opressive regime.) I have a hard time naming a Mystaran nation that respects freedom *less* than the Alphatians do. But I'll try: the Azcans, Denagoth. . .Hmmn. . .perhaps Nithia, though that one is questionable. But even the Humanoids of the Broken Lands haven't established as opressive a regime as Alphatia has. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia >> Well, obviously people "lose interest" when someone proves his point(which happens to be opposite to theirs) in a lengthy, detailed manner. << Exactly. They can only "rebut" it by ignoring the truth and persisting in mistatements and inaccurate claims, and also Orwellian "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY/SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP" distortions. This will all be exposed in due time, comming to a Tome Near You. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:52:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Alphatia 1 & 2 >> the scenario proposed by Ann Dupuis in the rebirth of Alphatia on the surface is ridiculous at best. << Well, it's pretty clear that she didn't bother to read DotE when she picked her favorite nation; then, when she did read it, she decided that anything good said about either Thyatis or Alphatia she would attribute to Alphatia, and anything bad she would attribute to Thyatis, irregardless of where it was originally attributed. >> I will say, however, that the most ridiculous thing of all the PWAs is the conduction of the Esterhold situation. << Yep. >> If somebody wants to know why, I will give them a detailed account (but it will be a long one too). << I say go for it. Do it. Break it up into a couple messages if you'd like. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:22:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: SV: [MYSTARA] Citizens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip lengthy adaption from history text book] As far as RW is concerned I believe your interpretation of the word is correct. (You have oblviously studied history, sociology or something similar). In Mystara, the word Citizen has different meanings. Milenia fits the RW interpretation, while Alphatia has another interpretation of the word. The term citizen in Alphatia includes all subjects of the Empress, even slaves. It does not however give any implication of the legal rights of these persons. -Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:37:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP Mzilikazi wrote: >> [snip lengthy adaption from history text book] << Actually, nope; I wrote that just off the top of my head (I did have to look up "Parioikoi" though). Some people do know what they're talking about. >> In Mystara, the word Citizen has different meanings. << Not really, as we'll see below. In Mystara, there are nations that recognize citizenship properly understood (Milenia, Darokin, Thyatis), while there are plenty of places that don't - but that also don't mislable their inhabitants. >> Milenia fits the RW interpretation, while Alphatia has another interpretation of the word. The term citizen in Alphatia includes all subjects of the Empress, even slaves. It does not however give any implication of the legal rights of these persons. << When "Alphatian Citizens" is used (as it is, improperly), then that's true: it's a positively Orwellian usage of the word, right out of Ninteen Eighty-Four: SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP, and in Alphatia it doesn't provide any legal rights. Fact is, when you said "Subjects", that was right - that's the proper term. It's just that using the correct and accurate terminology to describe these persons (Servants, Slaves, Subjects, a Helotry) unmasks the reality behind life in Alphatia, while using "citizen" covers up the reality. Thus, for instance, an accurate statement of what happened to the Jennites: "no longer were they to be slaves or denied Alphatian servitude" exposes the grim reality that the quote "no longer were they to be slaves or demied Alphatian citizenship" covers up - again, what we have here in Alphatia is NEWSPEAK (Jennite response: "It is Doubleplusgood to be AlphCitizen") because the reality is they are still in bondage/servitude, provided with no legal rights. If this were openly recognized in the text, then it would become obvious at once that the Jennites would not accept the deal ("Yes, you're 'Alphatian Citizens', which is to say, you're still in servitude - now get back to the mines and plantations") and would continue to revolt. Prettying it up by misusing the language and distorting it intentionally creates a misimpression of life not only in Esterhold, but throughout Alphatia. The truth is that in Alphatia what most people experience is a ruthless despotism not much different from Assyria or, somewhat less negatively, ancient Persia. . . .or Ingsoc Oceania. This use of the word "Citizen" when refering to Alphatians is, then, akin to the use of it in the game PARANOIA ("Are you Happy, Citizen? Happyness is Mandatory. Trust Eriadna. Eriadna is Your Friend.") In other words, the implications of them applying "Citizen" to the status of people in Alphatia is actively *WORSE* than if they would be honest and call them "Subjects" - it implys rather nightmarish propaganda and mind-control processes of the worst sort of totalitarian state one can think of. This does, however, go hand in glove with the "LIBERTY IS SLAVERY" attitude Alphatians promote with respect to how they indoctronate their people in viewing the rest of the world - I.E. their claims that freedom is to be found in the servidute and bondage in Alphatia, and that other places (the rest of Mystara) aren't free (when in point of fact, true liberty and freedom is more commonly found outside of Alphatia than in "freedom-loving" Alphatia, where most people are Unfree). So we get "LIBERTY IS SLAVERY" - Thyatis and the rest of the world, in the Alphatian mindset, being seen as despotic, and "SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP" - being a slave or Servant in Alphatia is seen as some form of "Citizenship" that people might aspire to. This is a worse Alphatia than I originally concieved it, but it is definately what those who are defending Alphatia are, in point of effect, promoting with their arguments: a vision of a Orwellian totalitarian state which distorts language and indoctrinates people into believing that the conditions of abject servitude they find themselves in is the "good life" and to be prefered over actual citizenship and actual liberty. "If there's any hope for the future, it's to be found among the Proles" - Winston (I really should dig up my copy of Ninteen Eighty-Four, since I'm probably misquoting slightly; anyone who has access to the book or remembers the quote, please let me know). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:47:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Karameikan Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >(and > > not forgetting a good way for Baron Halaran to pay his salt tax :) and ship > > that "special little something" to the Duke :) ). > > > > :) > > I missed this one. (???) > > vini. The Karameikan Royal Mint is located in a secret location in Threshold. Baron Halaran sends the newly minted coin to Specularum (Mirros) hidden in logs, not for bandits to ambush the coin shipments. I don't know how they'd get away with the buoyancy problems, but its a good idea if they can. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:00:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Karameikan Economy In-Reply-To: <003b01c040c7$a090fd20$1e67883e@philjones> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:12 10/28/00 +0100, Phillip Jones wrote: >It does seem odd at first, but when you think about it, maybe not so. The >map shows that there are no major forest areas around Threshold so this >would suggest that the lumber is coming mainly from the mountains nearby. >This would also suggest that the wood found there would more than likely >fall into the "rare" catergory, and thus would be more expensive. With a >virtually free transport system (they send their logs down river), this >would make a good "export" trade for a town so far inland as Threshold (and >not forgetting a good way for Baron Halaran to pay his salt tax :) and ship >that "special little something" to the Duke :) ). "Salt tax?" BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:03:27 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft In-Reply-To: <39FAD6D9.A7AFFDA3@engineer.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:38 10/28/00 -0300, Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: >> DENIAL [Special] >> Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, +2 Base Will Saving >> Throw Bonus, Intelligence 12+ or Wisdom 12+ >> Benefit: Once a day, a halfling in the Five Shires can deny the use of >> magic at close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). > >What kind of magic would be affected? Pretty much anything. It's classically used to stop the eeeeeeeeeeevil human magic-user from casting a spell on poor innocent hin children. >Why does RANGE is affected by his/her level and the number of spell >levels, by modifiers? Because I knew I wanted it to be a 3E short range ability. Didn't think about what the range would be based on. Hmmmm. >Why not really refleting the spell within the 5 Shires and only >defending/deflecting abroad? Because the ability is a benefit for Shire hin, as per the Gazetteer. Become a 10th level (prestige class) hin master, and you can Deny spells anywhere. (Yes, that's coming soon. Finishing the spell list today.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:06:42 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft In-Reply-To: <36.d3d8649.272c5023@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:52 10/28/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >> Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, > >To generalize this one a bit, we may want to change the requirement >to "resident of Halfling homeland", of which the Five Shires would be >the only such region that qualifies in the Known World region of Brun. >Then that ability could be selectively extended to other Halfling >homelands such as Leeha in Norwold. Where could I get more information on Norwald? I think the ability ought to be a manifestation of a long tie to the land. >> +2 Base Will Saving Throw Bonus, > >I think that should be changed to either base attack bonus or number >of hit dice to reflect the fact that the character using this feat takes >some damage from it (a point that was left out of your description, >by the way). D'oh! Forgot that. I used Will as it was a strength of willpower trait that also would require that most characters be higher than first level. >> Intelligence 12+ or Wisdom 12+ > >These requirements should be odd if present at all. Why? The power can't be used unless the character has a bonus in either one or the other, which become available when Int or Wis is 12 or better. >Maybe the easiest >way to handle this would be to have the feat affect a number of spell >levels equal to sum of modifiers, with a total of zero or less being >sufficient to turn cantrips only. Oooh! >While we are at it -- do we wish to add anything to cover spells that >are partially turned? (Raising eyebrows.) I did. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:07:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Final stretch on Hin Master prestige class In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:52 10/28/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >I think these two quotes point to the lack of a visible organized church >among the Halflings, not to a lack of faith in the Immortals. In other >words, the Halflings keep their worship services so private and secret >from Humans that most Humans assume that they have no religion >whatsoever -- and the dependence of low level Halflings on Human >Clerics for their healing needs only serves to perpetuate that mis- >understanding. Grrr. You're going to make me dig up the reference, huh? I just woke up -- long night -- but I'll find the definitive quote that makes me believe the hin don't pay any attention to the High Heroes. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: 3E Denial feat, first draft In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001028140642.007cb950@10.1.1.1> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:06 10/28/00 -0700, Beau Yarbrough wrote: >At 11:52 10/28/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >>While we are at it -- do we wish to add anything to cover spells that >>are partially turned? > > (Raising eyebrows.) I did. Buuuut I didn't include it in the first draft. It'll be in the second draft, sent along momentarily. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message is for all the Alphatian mundaners out there. Never forget, your Empress loves you. Slavery is freedom. Mundane is magic. This is your Empire. Your Empire provides all you need. You need to work for the Empire. Your Empire provides work. Your Empress will take care of you, from cradle to grave. This has been a service announcement from your friendly, local Councilmember. Thank you citizen! ----- Original Message ----- From: Evil Genius To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP > Mzilikazi wrote: > >> [snip lengthy adaption from history text book] << > > Actually, nope; I wrote that just off the top of my head (I did have to look up "Parioikoi" though). Some people do know what they're talking about. > > >> In Mystara, the word Citizen has different meanings. << > > Not really, as we'll see below. In Mystara, there are nations that recognize citizenship properly understood (Milenia, Darokin, Thyatis), while there are plenty of places that don't - but that also don't mislable their inhabitants. > > >> Milenia fits the RW interpretation, while Alphatia has another interpretation of the word. The term citizen in Alphatia includes all subjects of the Empress, even slaves. It does not however give any implication of the legal rights of these persons. << > > When "Alphatian Citizens" is used (as it is, improperly), then that's true: it's a positively Orwellian usage of the word, right out of Ninteen Eighty-Four: SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP, and in Alphatia it doesn't provide any legal rights. > > Fact is, when you said "Subjects", that was right - that's the proper term. It's just that using the correct and accurate terminology to describe these persons (Servants, Slaves, Subjects, a Helotry) unmasks the reality behind life in Alphatia, while using "citizen" covers up the reality. > > Thus, for instance, an accurate statement of what happened to the Jennites: "no longer were they to be slaves or denied Alphatian servitude" exposes the grim reality that the quote "no longer were they to be slaves or demied Alphatian citizenship" covers up - again, what we have here in Alphatia is NEWSPEAK (Jennite response: "It is Doubleplusgood to be AlphCitizen") because the reality is they are still in bondage/servitude, provided with no legal rights. If this were openly recognized in the text, then it would become obvious at once that the Jennites would not accept the deal ("Yes, you're 'Alphatian Citizens', which is to say, you're still in servitude - now get back to the mines and plantations") and would continue to revolt. > > Prettying it up by misusing the language and distorting it intentionally creates a misimpression of life not only in Esterhold, but throughout Alphatia. The truth is that in Alphatia what most people experience is a ruthless despotism not much different from Assyria or, somewhat less negatively, ancient Persia. . . .or Ingsoc Oceania. > > This use of the word "Citizen" when refering to Alphatians is, then, akin to the use of it in the game PARANOIA ("Are you Happy, Citizen? Happyness is Mandatory. Trust Eriadna. Eriadna is Your Friend.") > > In other words, the implications of them applying "Citizen" to the status of people in Alphatia is actively *WORSE* than if they would be honest and call them "Subjects" - it implys rather nightmarish propaganda and mind-control processes of the worst sort of totalitarian state one can think of. This does, however, go hand in glove with the "LIBERTY IS SLAVERY" attitude Alphatians promote with respect to how they indoctronate their people in viewing the rest of the world - I.E. their claims that freedom is to be found in the servidute and bondage in Alphatia, and that other places (the rest of Mystara) aren't free (when in point of fact, true liberty and freedom is more commonly found outside of Alphatia than in "freedom-loving" Alphatia, where most people are Unfree). > > So we get "LIBERTY IS SLAVERY" - Thyatis and the rest of the world, in the Alphatian mindset, being seen as despotic, and "SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP" - being a slave or Servant in Alphatia is seen as some form of "Citizenship" that people might aspire to. > > This is a worse Alphatia than I originally concieved it, but it is definately what those who are defending Alphatia are, in point of effect, promoting with their arguments: a vision of a Orwellian totalitarian state which distorts language and indoctrinates people into believing that the conditions of abject servitude they find themselves in is the "good life" and to be prefered over actual citizenship and actual liberty. > > "If there's any hope for the future, it's to be found among the Proles" - Winston (I really should dig up my copy of Ninteen Eighty-Four, since I'm probably misquoting slightly; anyone who has access to the book or remembers the quote, please let me know). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:27:40 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: 3E Denial, second draft MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adapted for 3E from the original version in Gaz 8, written by Ed Greenwood. DENIAL [Special] Prerequisites: Halfling, resident in the Five Shires, +2 Base Will Saving Throw Bonus Benefit: Once a day, a halfling in the Five Shires can cry out "NO!" and deny the use of magic at close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). The halfling instantly takes 1d4 hit points worth of damage, even if no attack is ultimately launched. (A wand merely being raised, for instance.) The ability draws on the power within the land of the Five Shires itself, and can only be used there. Denial is a full round action. Slaying or wounding of a denying hin in the round the effect is used does not cause the effect to be ruined or wasted, and it has the full effect as normal. The ability works like spell turning (see page 255 in the Player's Handbook), with the number of spell levels being turned equal to the combination of the halfling's intelligence and wisdom modifiers (page 8, ibid). Cantrips and orisons can always be turned, so long as they are ranged spells. Magical items may also be thwarted this way. Immortal magic, including artifacts, are assumed to have five additional spell levels for the purposes of denial. Unlike the spell turning spell, the ability only works on one spell a day, and spells are not necessarily reflected back at the caster. Rather, the spell is deflected in the same manner as grenadelike weapons are (page 138, ibid), 5 feet per spell level. Spells can be partially denied -- a lightning bolt cast on a hin could have all but one of its damage dice denied, meaning that the hin would suffer that one die of damage, while the rest would be deflected away. Partially denied non-damaging spells have their effects similarly scaled down: A charm spell would last only a fraction of its normal duration, for instance. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:54:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > Where could I get more information on Norwald? CM1 Test of the Warlords, and some other CM series modules are the basic source on Norwold. Other than that, you might want to have a look at the Almanacs (either the TSR's or the MA team's). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: SERVITUDE IS CITIZENSHIP > Your Empire provides work. < Arbeit Macht Frei. Alphatia Uber Alles (the Hattian translation of the motto on Alphatia's currency has such a ring to it, does it not?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:18:23 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Hutaaka Valley MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just noticed the maps for the Hutaaka Valley on the official Mystara site and was wondering whether the transfer of Hutaaka to the Hollow World was recent or is attributed to meddling by Ka prior to the Wrath Of The Immortals. Thanks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:51:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Hutaaka Valley In-Reply-To: <39FB7ADF.E6507EB6@student.umass.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I just noticed the maps for the Hutaaka Valley on the official Mystara > site and was wondering whether the transfer of Hutaaka to the Hollow > World was recent or is attributed to meddling by Ka prior to the Wrath > Of The Immortals. Thanks. There are two distinct Hutaakan Valleys, one in the OW and one in the HW. Pflarr distributed the Hutaaka to the HW at the time of the collapse of the Nithian Empire, abandoning many in the OW, where their civilization declined to the point seen in B10. Now that the maps are up, the Hutaakan Valley HWR will be posted to the list in a couple days, which hopefully should fill in some of the information missing in canon materials. We didn't include much additionality history, though. - Mischa "So you'll go to a nearby school or fire station, walking by the colorful placards comparing the candidates to Winston Churchill and Mother Teresa, and then you'll vote for the persons best qualified to do the job. Unfortunately, those people aren't listed, because they were constitutionally prevented from running since they're not rich" - Ed Spivey ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Hutaaka Valley Mystara wrote: >> I just noticed the maps for the Hutaaka Valley on the official Mystarasite and was wondering whether the transfer of Hutaaka to the Hollow World was recent or is attributed to meddling by Ka prior to the Wrath Of The Immortals. Thanks. << The Hutaaka in the Hollow World have been there for quite some time, having been transfered there by Pflarr centuries ago. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:22:50 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: [GPD] Glantrian Sex Symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Methinks the New Averoignese engaged in some ballot box stuffing here, > > as three of their ladies are on this list. No lady from Belcadiz made the > > cut? Nor did Princess Dolores? > > While undoubtedly Princess Carnelia ranks the highest in class and style (followed closely by Lady Lan-Syn Virayana), sex appeal she does not so much this season (She ranked #6.) Carmina de Belcadiz ranked much lower this time around; while vamp may be in, slut is definitely out. A surprise Belcadizan was Ysabel de Fedorias (see GPD entry on her), "La Flor de Belcadiz" who combined young, elven innocence (typically ascribed only to Erewan elves) and the Belcadizan sophistication. She ranked #8. And Princess Dolores still smells of the political mud that she has been slinging--as well as the drool from Noussoir du Marais' wagging tongue, and did not make it on the list. Kit Navarro ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:50:39 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Night dragons MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Still plugging away at the VotPA print-outs -- reading it on the screen just doesn't work for me -- and I noticed wild discrepencies between the VotPA version of night dragons and how they're portrayed in GKoM. To wit: In VotPA, they're undead, capable of possession (although "domination" seems to be more accurate) and their breath weapon is a cloud of darkness that puts one to sleep. IIRC, in GKoM, they're essentially black red dragons, with no mention of undead status, their other breath weapon or the mind-control abilities. Is my memory lacking, or are there major discrepencies between the two versions? If there are discrepencies, I'd personally go with a policy of inclusion: two types of breath weapons, undead and lots of illusion/enchantment spell abilities. Also, I'm only up to the Princess Ark's arrival in Northern Davania and the plant-centric kingdom there, but is what Synn was guarding back in Oceania ever explained in more detail? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: 3E Hin Master - first full draft MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Boy, those spells were a pain. Most of them, it turns out, have 3E analogues, so that's where they went. I also lopped off the top few levels of spells, so that hin masters would correspond in spell use to clerics/druids. I THINK the following class is relatively balanced. Feedback needed. -- Hin Master Prestige Class With religion notably absent from any role in hin society in the Five Shires, it would be easy to say that the High Heroes (the hin Immortals) play no role in the lives of hindul (the halfling people). This would be a mistake: Where the Immortals of other races seek to guide or even command their peoples openly, the High Heroes want the hin to remain self-reliant and free. Instead of sending their clerics out amongst the hin to administer to and lead them, the High Heroes instead take aside noteworthy hin who have already shown a love of their land and a devotion to their people, and teach them the lore of the Gentle Folk and charge them with a mission to quietly protect the Five Shires, both land and people. In many ways, the Hin masters resemble Mystara's seldom-seen druids, and it is possible that both rely on handed-down lore from the now-vanished Gentle Folk elves. Unlike druids, though, the masters are devoted to one land in particular: The Five Shires. Their devotion to the Shires is shown in many ways: A new master changes her name from, for instance, "Lidda Heatherfoot" to "Lidda Heatherfoot Highshire," denoting the Shire in which she has lived. Until achieving the rank of Higher Master, a master will not willingly leave the Shires unless called upon to do so by a master tutor, Sheriff, involved in war beyond the nation's borders or a sign from the High Heroes. Hin masters come from all walks of life, including non-adventuring classes. They tend to be quiet, soft spoken and seldom seen. They work apart from other hin as much as possible to avoid incurring resentment or making other hin dependent on their aid and abandoning self-reliance. Masters battle evil humanoids and the evil beings residing in the Shires, they will do whatever is necessary and least harmful to those concerned to protect halflings from the attacks of such creatures. Masters tend to dress simply, and have no distinctive uniform, speech or= rune. REQUIREMENTS Halfling race, resident in the Five Shires Non-evil alignment Knowledge (local - Five Shires) ranks: 5+ Wilderness Lore ranks: 5+ Feats: Denial The prospective master must undergo an apprenticeship with another master for at least two seasons. THE HIN MASTER Hit dice: d8 Level Att. Fort. Ref. Will Special 1 0 +2 0 +2 Improved Denial, Nature Sense, Turn Undead 2 +1 +3 0 +3 Low-Light Vision 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 =09 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 =09 5 +3 +4 +1 +4 =09 6 +4 +5 +2 +5 =09 7 +5 +5 +2 +5 =09 8 +6 +6 +2 +6 =09 9 +6 +6 +3 +6 =09 10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Higher Master Spells per Day Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 1 3 1 2 4 2 3 4 2 1 4 5 3 2 5 5 3 2 1 6 5 3 3 2 7 6 4 3 2 1 8 6 4 3 3 2 9 6 4 4 3 2 1 10 6 4 4 3 3 2 Class Skills: Animal Empathy, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local - Five Shires), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (Religion), Move Silently, Speak Language (Elvish), Spellcraft, Swim, Wilderness Lore Skill points at each level: 4 + Int modifier. CLASS FEATURES Weapon and armor proficiency: A Hin master is trained in the use of simple weapons, light armor and shields. Spells: A master can cast divine spells according to the table above and gains and prepares spells in the same way that a cleric does (although she cannot swap spells to cast a cure spell in its place). To prepare or cast a spell, a master must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a master's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the master's Wisdom modifier. Bonus spells for masters are based on Wisdom (see PHB Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). For spells that require a divine focus, the master may use either a representation of a Crucible of Blackflame or actual blackflame, where available. A master cannot regain her spells outside of the Five= Shires. Bonus Language: A master knows Lalor, the ancient and almost extinct language of the halflings. Lalor is typically used in communication with other masters, Keepers and some Clanmasters when they know they are being listened to and do not wish others to know what they are saying. Lalor has its own alphabet. By spending a skill point, a master may also learn Elvish, of the Gentle Folk dialect. Improved Denial: A master using denial can turn double the spell levels a normal halfling can. Extra Denial: Hin masters can take the Denial feat additional times, gaining a single additional use per day. Nature sense: A master can identify plants and animals with perfect accuracy and tell if water is safe to drink or dangerous. Masters do not hunt creatures for sport, although they will hunt for food. Turn Undead: A master can turn undead as per a cleric of her same class level (see PHB page 139). Extra Turning: As a feat, a master may take Extra Turning. This feat allows the master to turn undead four more times per day than normal. A master may take this feat multiple times, gaining four extra daily turning attempts each time.=20 Low-Light Vision: Starting at second level, a master gains low-light vision, and can see twice as far in starlight, moonlight, torchlight or similar conditions as an ordinary halfling can. Higher Master: At 10th level, the master's bond with the land is so now so deep that many of the previous restrictions upon her are lifted, and can freely travel, adventure and regain spells outside of the Five Shires. They may also use denial outside of the Five Shires. Ex-Masters: Masters who leave their calling lose all spells and special abilities, such as Improved Denial and low-light vision, but retain their nature sense. Masters who seek to return to their calling must atone (see the atonement spell in the PHB, page 176). Master Spell List 0th Level (Orisons) -- Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Light, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance, Thornspear 1st Level -- Cure Light Wounds, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Evil, Endure Elements, Magic Stone, Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear, Sleep 2nd Level -- Animal Trance, Detect Thoughts, Find Traps, Hold Person, Produce Flame, See Invisibility, Silence, Speak with Animals, Web 3rd Level -- Bestow Curse, Call Lightning, Fly, Locate Object, Neutralize Poison, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Speak with Plants, Water Walk 4th Level -- Charm Monster, Control Plants, Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Scrying, Shout, Quench, Restoration 5th Level -- Animal Growth, Control Winds, Feeblemind, Insect Plague, Raise Dead, Tree Stride SPELLS Bestow Curse TRANSMUTATION Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Hin Master 3, Sor/Wiz 3 As the standard bestow curse, save that hin masters prefer the following curses, rather than those given on page 178 of the Player's Handbook: =B7 The first blow struck by a cursed creature against a halfling will miss =B7 Any lie told to a halfling by the cursed creature will immediately be known by the halfling =B7 Any attempted theft of any halfling property by the cursed creature will immediately be detected =B7 Any food eaten within the Shires by the cursed creature, for the rest of its life, will taste bad and cause indigestion and embarrassing flatulence The curses listed in the Player's Handbook (page 178) are also available, although are less commonly used. Scrying DIVINATION Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Hin Master 4, Sor/Wiz 4 As per page 247 in the Player's Handbook. Hin Masters, like druids, use a natural pool of water as a focus. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 02:50:37 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Origin of the Rakasta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grade: A+. It DID rock! vini. Agathokles wrote: > > Due to the flood of requests for information about the Rakasta (that is, > three in a month...), I decided to write this still-not-too-long article > about the origins and diffusion of the Rakasta. Note that only Mystaran > Rakasta are considere herein, not Myoshimans. > > Origin of the Rakasta (snip) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.