========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:29:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alphatiaphiles: 1) Dupuisian heretics: The Dupuisian Heretics are those who believe that Alphatia's description is that presented in PWA II, III and similar products. They either refuse the idea that Alphatia was depicted in DotE differently from the PWA, or claim that in 10 years of history Alphatia has changed much. Their claim is right only if they refuse entirely the DotE stuff, admitting that the two Alphatias are completely different, and thus considering DotE non-relevant Canon. 2) Alphatiaphobes Alphatiaphobes claim that Alphatia is the one depicted in the DotE, and consider non-relevant the subsiquent descriptions of Alphatia that change the country into a more beningn and happy-going nation. Their claims have more solid basis, as DotE is full of examples and situations that completely contradicts subsiquent material, but the change in portrayal of Alphatia is subsiquent to DotE, and thus, like in everything, more recent material should be considered the "true", while older one should be dismissed. 3) Alphatiaphiles Not coming as far as the excesses of Dupuisian Heretics, Alphatiaphiles tend to admitt (partly or entirely) that Alphatia was different in DotE. However they fail to arrive to the next step: say that they do not consider DotE a reliable source for Alphatia anymore. As we can see, the debate will remain endless. As James Ruhland showed with a recent post, Alphatia in DotE is quite a tyrannical nation, where wizards are more or less allowed to do what they want, and the others bite the dust, except in few cases. Now, why the Alphatiaphiles and Heretics think this is so bad, I cannot understand. I liked DotE Alphatia in the way it was a sort of M-Melnibon� (wizard aristocracy, almighty but decadent, full of zzonga), with that sort of vaguely Persian touch given by the proximity of Thyatis, Shield of Brun...and this situation of Alphatia gave different possibilities of enjoying a campaign there: 1) Being an aristocratic wizard who thinks he can do everything. And he is right. 2) Being a revolutionary (a wizard who hates the situation, a fighter who wants to change the system, whatever). 3) Being an illuminist ( a wizard a la Stalker, who wants to change the system remaining inside of it- and this is how the Stalker begun to play and love Alphatia, am I right?) Now, I will not go as far as saying that Alphatia is like Orwell's 1984, but I think that this discussion would end immediately if the Alphatiaphiles said: "Well, Alphatia is quite tyrannical in DotE, but we don't consider that product relevant anymore because of the newer material in PWA II portray things differently." If someone said this, how could we reply? However, the debate goes on because several Alphatiaphiles continue to say that Alphatia is not portrayed as tyrannical in DotE. And that is all the problem, IMHO. A last note: I don't like it when we begin to attack each other personally. Although the discussion has not degenerated, things point slightly in that direction. Personally I believe we are well over the period of time when we listen to the other's ideas...these discussions are productive only (when they are) the first or second day, then we enter Status: Defensive, and shield our mind against the other's ideas. I apologize for any offense I might have done, and I bow out of the discussion...if we stop it here, be sure it will resurface again in some time! Smile and be happy, Mystaran Citizen! It's all a game... (when I think how heated these discussions can become, I sadly think that the human race will very difficultly find peace...we are so stupidly aggressive...) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:14:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Ivory Plume of Maat? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beau wrote: > In the Bruce Heard "Dragon" July 1991 (forgot the issue = number) magazine > article "Who's Who Among Dragons," there are two magic items mentioned = that > I'm not familiar with. Anyone will to share where these came from and > briefly outline what they do? >=20 > Ivory Plume of Maat Sorry, can't keep this short. >From D&D Master DMs book (p.59): A feather-shaped ivory brooch (3 inches = long) created by the great paladin Maat (now an Immortal). It is a = Greater Artifact with the powers: Dispel Evil, Geas, Continual Light, = Tuen Undead as level 24, Lie Detection, Know Alignment, Choose Option, = Purify Food and Water, Repair Normal Objects, Remove Fear, +4 ST Bonus, = Immune to Disease, Imune to Energy Drain. Paladins or Lawful Knights = (presumably Lawful Good in AD&D) know how to use the powers = telepathically, others must commune with Maat. Handicaps: 1) When used alignment changes towards L (I suggest LG in AD&D), and if = already L becomes rigidly L, actively wishing to oppose Chaos. 2) 80 % chance that spells or magic items used by the wielder targeting = L or N characters (AD&D: G or N) with no evil intent fail. 3) Artifact recharges it's powers when the user slays C creatures (AD&D: = E). Penalties: 1) If a C creature (AD&D: E) touches the artifact, or if the wileder has = evil intentions an obliterate spell (reverse of raise dead fully) is = cast at him/her/it with no ST. 2) When first used, wielder is encased in a Wall of Stone. To escape = think of Maat and pass through. If Wall is damaged/destroyed by wielder, = wielder thereafter takes double damage from all physical attacks. 3) If wielder slays a L creature (AD&D: G), wielder is reduced to -10 = hp. Remaining penalties only happen occasionally: 4) 30,000 cubic feet of mud or similar substances within 120 feet = harden. 5) 1-4 C creatures (AD&D: E) appear magically within 30 feet of the = wielder. They're at 31-50% of the wielder's level/HD and have maximum = hp. > Talisman of Elemental Travel >From the Rules Cyclopedia (p.241): There are five types of Talismans, = one Lesser for each element (Air etc.), and one Greater that encompasses = all elements. If you press the corresponding area of a Talisman while = casting a conjure elemental spell, you are sent to that elemental plane. = While wearing a Talisman, you can breathe elemental matter and have = normal vision on the elemental plane. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:01:17 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Everyone is hereby invited to read "A History of the Thyatians", at: > > http://www.geocities.com/augustium/Thyatis/History/PreImperial.htm > > and critique it. Slams (including undeserved one's, like Andrew's) welcome, along with critiques, suggestions for additions & modifications, or outright flames regarding how badly written and concieved it is are welcomed. > > Good ideas (whether they are "good" or "bad" episodes), whether they be suggested additions or suggested modifications, will be added to the next version. > > Absurd ideas will be treated as such, but are welcomed as part of the Criticizing process. I like the article in general, but I'd like to make some points if I may. 1. The three "Thyatian" tribes lived originally lived on the southern continent of Davania, and were not colonists of the Nithian Empire. If anything, it would be the Milenian Empire that could be classified as Nithian colonists (abeit indirectly - the Nithian Empire colonised Traldar lands in BC 1,500, and the Milenians are an offshoot of the Traldar). 2. No mention is given of Vanya and her heroic defence against the Milenians, to allow the Thaytian tribes to flee their homeland. I would have thought that there would have been some mention of her, as she seems to have been one of the Thyatians best leaders (you wouldn't leave a complete incompedent to guard your back :) ), and of course she was also a Kerendan princess, and thus a prominent figure within "Thyatian" society. 3. Thassalanian wars??? I can't find any mention of them, or the Kerendan/Thyatian conflict that is mentioned. As far as I can see, the three tribes concentrated on settling their areas, and expanding their territories. With so much to do, and so many hostile creatures/raiders from other "countries" I would have thought that the last thing the three "Thyatian" tribes would do is war amongst themselves. I'm not saying that the occassional border skirmish wouldn't have happened, but full scale wars I think would be unlikely. There's even mention of the Kerendans sacking Thyatis City. This I find amazing! The Thyatian tribe was by far the largest of the three tribes that colonized the lands that are now Thyatis, so apart from the Kerendans being vastly outnumbered they, would fear the reprisals on what such an action would be. I concede that with the Thyatians poorly led, the Kerendans might just get away with it initialy. However, the Kerendans have centuries of knowledge of Thyatian tenacity (dating back to their histories on Davania), and would know that it would not take the Thyatians long to get their leadership problems in order, and subsequently bomb the Kerendans back into the stone age. Would it really be worth the risk? There is one other thing that has not been considered. All three tribes would have lost alot of warriors in their fight against the Nithians. It would take many generations for the tribes to recoup such losses, and consider themselves strong enough for such "rash" actions. So if these events were to take place, I would have thought that they would take place at a later point in time. I've skimmed though the entire article, but have one responded to the events on the first page for the moment (I think this post is getting long enough lol). I'll review the stuff on the other pages in seperate posts, after I've read them thoroughly. Jeez you guys have been busy!!! :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:26:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! In-Reply-To: <000f01c043fb$71ed4000$a260883e@philjones> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Phillip Jones wrote: > > Everyone is hereby invited to read "A History of the Thyatians", at: > > > > http://www.geocities.com/augustium/Thyatis/History/PreImperial.htm > I like the article in general, but I'd like to make some points if I may. > > 1. The three "Thyatian" tribes lived originally lived on the southern > continent of Davania, and were not colonists of the Nithian Empire. If > anything, it would be the Milenian Empire that could be classified as > Nithian colonists (abeit indirectly - the Nithian Empire colonised Traldar > lands in BC 1,500, and the Milenians are an offshoot of the Traldar). IIRC the "Thyatian" tribes were descendants of Antillian slaves brought to Davania by Nithian colonists. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:32:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Night dragons In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001030192429.007f9210@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > There are definite discrepancies. Personally, I'd go more like the original > version, with just the one breath weapon (heat draining darkness). In fact, > I'd be inclined to (under 3E rules) make Night Dragon a template that is > applied to any dragon (their description in, I believe, issue #163 and in > the CoM boxed set has them as chaotic dragons that have converted to > Entropy and become undead). This is an excellent idea! Do you think that a ceremony of Sublimination should be required to become a Night Dragon, or is making a deal with one of the Entropic Immortals enought? Which brings me onto another Draconic topic. How should the Ceremony of Sublimination rules be converted into D&D3E? Any thoughts? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! Phillip Jones wrote: >> 1. The three "Thyatian" tribes lived originally lived on the southern continent of Davania, and were not colonists of the Nithian Empire. << They're not colonists of Nithians, but the Event doesn't claim them to be. As for the rest, this is a case where if you had clicked the "footnote" and then checked the reference (p.14-15 of the HW DM's Sourcebook), that would have cleared things up for you. I'll quote the relivant section: "The Nithians, made curious about the southern continent by the Traldar flight in that direction, transport many Northern Reaches slaves to Harbortown and thence to the southern continent, to colonize there. This is the southern limit of Nithian expansion, and isn't very successful. The Northern Reaches slaves soon rebel and slay their Nithian overlords. These tribes carve out their own territory in the southern continent, and are the forefathers of the Thyatian, Kerendan, and Hattian tribes who later found the Empire of Thyatis." In the future, it will save a lot of time if people make use of the "footnotes" to verify things before saying they're wrong. If, once you check, you still find there to be a discrepancy, then by all means bring it up. >> 2. No mention is given of Vanya and her heroic defence against the Milenians, to allow the Thaytian tribes to flee their homeland. << Yes, there is mention. Perhaps it could be expanded more, but she's specifically mentioned as the leader of the rear guard in the BC 596 Event, including her capture by the Milenians. >> 3. Thassalanian wars??? I can't find any mention of them, or the Kerendan/Thyatian conflict that is mentioned. << So? Here we come to a point that NEEDS to be made: just because the "canon" histories don't mention something doesn't mean that nothing happened. The "canon" histories in the various Gazeteers give a feel for the country(s) being described and highlight (briefly) many of the more significant episodes. But to consider them exaustive, covering every noitable event that took place, would be absurd; one would then conclude that in most areas of the Known World absolutely nothing took place for long centuries. . .but then all the sudden in AC 1004 with the start of WotI things really get hopping, with events all over the place. The products aren't a history text, they're gaming materiels. Few gaming materiels provide as exaustive a history of the region covered as was provided in "Empires of the Shining Sea", to pick an example of one where an extensive backround history was provided, but that shouldn't be taken as meaning nothing happened that wasn't mentioned. Now, to move on to the critique of those inter-tribal conflicts themselves: >> As far as I can see, the three tribes concentrated on settling their areas, and expanding their territories. With so much to do, and so many hostile creatures/raiders from other "countries" I would have thought that the last thing the three "Thyatian" tribes would do is war amongst themselves. << Yes, people being as smart and not prone to mistakes as they are, you might conclude that they would get along amicably while dividing the pie. But, alas, history is often the story of folly, vice, ineptitude, envy and fear. They couldn't "agree to agree" or even "agree to disagree" in all cases on who should get what. >> I'm not saying that the occassional border skirmish wouldn't have happened, but full scale wars I think would be unlikely. << They couldn't agree on who should control what, and so they naturally came into conflict over it. I don't think it's that absurd to see these conflicts as developing into wars, especially once the "major power" (Nithia) is gone - that would have imposed a kind of unity you describe (and there are no major inter-tribal conflicts while the Nithians are still around); I would actually think it bizzare if the three tribes got along more or less with only the occasional border skirmish. Border skirmishes have had, historically, a tendency to continue to escalate if the side that loses figures they "deserve" what is in dispute. This is a period of squabbling tribes and City-States, not disimilar to the conflicts between Rome and the various Latin tribes and other tribes of Italy, or the conflicts between Greek City States. Indeed, even in our "extensive" history we probably left a lot out that anyone could put in (as I said in an earlier post, in a sixteen century history, one could write multi-volume textbooks to cover it). >> There's even mention of the Kerendans sacking Thyatis City. This I find amazing! << Actually, nope there isn't. I think you're confusing their plundering of the lands of the Thyatians (primarily what will one day become the Duchy of Thyatis) with the city itself. Sloppy, vague writing on our part in that instance (actually on my part). The Kerendans besiege Thyatis City during the war, but they never sack it ("sacking" is never mentioned, btw). I'll try and make that episode clearer and less confusing in my next edit/re-write. But not that it would be so absurd if they did sack Thyatis City, though. The Thyatian tribe is generally taken to be (and thus having always been) the stronger, and certainly in "Imperial" times that's true and we even assume it to be true throughout Thyatian history (during the pre-Imperial era as much as during the Imperial era, our history could accurately be called very "Thyatia-centric", in that it concentrates mainly on developments in the City of Thyatis and among the Thyatians rather than among the Kerendans or Hattians). But just because they're generally stronger doesn't mean they're invincible in wars against the other tribes, don't have periods of relative weakness (this Kerendan-Thyatian war was one of those), and can't be defeated. >> However, the Kerendans have centuries of knowledge of Thyatian tenacity (dating back to their histories on Davania), << The Kerendans themselves are no less a part of that history of "Thyatian tenacity" - remember, Vanya was a Princess of the Kerendan tribe. They don't consider themselves inferior, even if they are outnumbered. Plus, again I think you're giving people too much credit for their ability to avoid folly and miscalculation. Also, note, that the Kerendans hoped to (and eventually did) get the Hattians to join their side in the war. Note that after the war one might perhaps conclude that a lesson such as the one you suggest they had already learned is learned, as the Tribes are enrolled into a League that lasts until the Alphatian conquest. >> subsequently bomb the Kerendans back into the stone age. << No one bombed anyone back into the stone age in the 5th century BC. >> There is one other thing that has not been considered. All three tribes would have lost alot of warriors in their fight against the Nithians. << Even if that were the case (and their's no indication they were depopulated), that wouldn't prevent them from fighting each other. One could consider it analogous to the Persian War in Greece (where the Greeks lost a lot of warriors in their fight against the Greeks, and much of Greece was occupied for a time), but that didn't stop them from fighting subsiquent wars against each other, including the Peloponesian War. The Kerendan-Thyatian War takes place about as long after the demise of the Nithians as the period of time between the Persian War and the Peloponesian War. >> I'll review the stuff on the other pages in seperate posts, after I've read them thoroughly. << Ok. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Caroletti, I would point out that there is one more Alphatiaphile out there, though it might just be another aspect of the third. There are those of us who were introduced to Alphatia through CM1 and the other Norwold modules. We tend to take a negative view of both empires, seeing them both as being enemies of our freedom. We tend to pick and choose what we like from the DotE and the PWAs, favoring overall our initial view of the empires. ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroletti To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:29 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) > Alphatiaphiles: > > 1) Dupuisian heretics: > The Dupuisian Heretics are those who believe that Alphatia's description > is that > presented in PWA II, III and similar products. They either refuse the > idea that > Alphatia was depicted in DotE differently from the PWA, or claim that in > 10 years > of history Alphatia has changed much. > Their claim is right only if they refuse entirely the DotE stuff, > admitting that the two > Alphatias are completely different, and thus considering DotE > non-relevant > Canon. > > 2) Alphatiaphobes > Alphatiaphobes claim that Alphatia is the one depicted in the DotE, and > consider > non-relevant the subsiquent descriptions of Alphatia that change the > country into > a more beningn and happy-going nation. > Their claims have more solid basis, as DotE is full of examples and > situations > that completely contradicts subsiquent material, but the change in > portrayal of > Alphatia is subsiquent to DotE, and thus, like in everything, more > recent material > should be considered the "true", while older one should be dismissed. > > 3) Alphatiaphiles > Not coming as far as the excesses of Dupuisian Heretics, Alphatiaphiles > tend to admitt (partly or entirely) that Alphatia was different in DotE. > However > they fail to arrive to the next step: say that they do not consider DotE > a > reliable source for Alphatia anymore. > > As we can see, the debate will remain endless. As James Ruhland showed > with > a recent post, Alphatia in DotE is quite a tyrannical nation, where > wizards are > more or less allowed to do what they want, and the others bite the dust, > except > in few cases. Now, why the Alphatiaphiles and Heretics think this is so > bad, I > cannot understand. I liked DotE Alphatia in the way it was a sort of > M-Melnibon� (wizard aristocracy, almighty but decadent, full of zzonga), > with > that sort of vaguely Persian touch given by the proximity of Thyatis, > Shield of > Brun...and this situation of Alphatia gave different possibilities of > enjoying a > campaign there: > > 1) Being an aristocratic wizard who thinks he can do everything. And he > is right. > 2) Being a revolutionary (a wizard who hates the situation, a fighter > who wants > to change the system, whatever). > 3) Being an illuminist ( a wizard a la Stalker, who wants to change the > system > remaining inside of it- and this is how the Stalker begun to play and > love > Alphatia, am I right?) > > Now, I will not go as far as saying that Alphatia is like Orwell's 1984, > but I > think that this discussion would end immediately if the Alphatiaphiles > said: > "Well, Alphatia is quite tyrannical in DotE, but we don't consider that > product > relevant anymore because of the newer material in PWA II portray things > differently." > > If someone said this, how could we reply? > > However, the debate goes on because several Alphatiaphiles continue to > say that Alphatia is not portrayed as tyrannical in DotE. And that is > all the > problem, IMHO. > > A last note: I don't like it when we begin to attack each other > personally. Although > the discussion has not degenerated, things point slightly in that > direction. > Personally I believe we are well over the period of time when we listen > to > the other's ideas...these discussions are productive only (when they > are) the first > or second day, then we enter Status: Defensive, and shield our mind > against > the other's ideas. I apologize for any offense I might have done, and I > bow out > of the discussion...if we stop it here, be sure it will resurface again > in some time! > > Smile and be happy, Mystaran Citizen! It's all a game... > (when I think how heated these discussions can become, I sadly think > that the > human race will very difficultly find peace...we are so stupidly > aggressive...) > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:32:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) Mystara wrote: >> We tend to take a negative view of both empires, seeing them both as being enemies of our freedom. << That's not an "Alphatiaphile", though. That's a "Norwoldiphile" (a species of Karameikaphile, really). Now, there is a such a thing as a "Alphatiaphile" who is also a "Norwoldiphile", liking Norwold but not taking "a negative view of both empires" (seeing Norwold instead as a part of the glorious Perfect Society) - but that would fit into one of Caroletti's categories and not be a separate one (just as, for instance, a "Havenphile" or "Randelphile" or the like can easily fit within one of Caroletti's categories). But a "Norwoldiphile" who views both empires negatively as a threat to Stefan-Ericall's freedom to conquer the rest of Norwold and absorb the independent Heldanners et all into "his" Kingdom, but wanting independence from *both* empires is neither a "Alphatiaphile" nor a "Thyatiaphile" of any kind. That's Norwoldiphilism, and is perfectly respectable. . .but lets try not to pretend to a sort of "ethical purity" their, either (well, fans of Yarvik the Just might I guess, but minions of Erical aren't "purer" than Thyatian conquerers or Alphatian conquerers). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> 3. Thassalanian wars??? I can't find any mention of them, or the > Kerendan/Thyatian conflict that is mentioned. << > > So? 693 AC: In this year, nothing happened. Yeah, the timelines and events we are given are just a framework. There is nothing wrong with fleshing stuff out. Its rather absurd to suggest (As the above line jokes) that a year could go by without any newsworthy events. While there are "slow news" days in the real world, SOMETHING happens every year. I would even venture that something happens every day somewhere that is important to some amount of people... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:58:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, you are correct on all points. Of course, we have the Three Crones...which does give us a bit of an ethical edge. At least we can say it does... ----- Original Message ----- From: Evil Genius To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) > Mystara wrote: > >> We tend to take a negative view of both empires, seeing them both as being enemies of our freedom. << > > That's not an "Alphatiaphile", though. That's a "Norwoldiphile" (a species of Karameikaphile, really). > > Now, there is a such a thing as a "Alphatiaphile" who is also a "Norwoldiphile", liking Norwold but not taking "a negative view of both empires" (seeing Norwold instead as a part of the glorious Perfect Society) - but that would fit into one of Caroletti's categories and not be a separate one (just as, for instance, a "Havenphile" or "Randelphile" or the like can easily fit within one of Caroletti's categories). > > But a "Norwoldiphile" who views both empires negatively as a threat to Stefan-Ericall's freedom to conquer the rest of Norwold and absorb the independent Heldanners et all into "his" Kingdom, but wanting independence from *both* empires is neither a "Alphatiaphile" nor a "Thyatiaphile" of any kind. That's Norwoldiphilism, and is perfectly respectable. . .but lets try not to pretend to a sort of "ethical purity" their, either (well, fans of Yarvik the Just might I guess, but minions of Erical aren't "purer" than Thyatian conquerers or Alphatian conquerers). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:41:36 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Night dragons In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable At 13:32 11/1/00 +0100, H=E5vard wrote: >Do you think that a ceremony of Sublimination should be required to become >a Night Dragon, or is making a deal with one of the Entropic Immortals >enought? I think it should be a transformation at the will of the Entropic Immortals, leaving the door open for a few unwilling transformations. "The night dragon is WHO?" The undead, IMO, should be scary, and making all of the transformations willing ones undercuts that. >Which brings me onto another Draconic topic. How should the Ceremony of >Sublimination rules be converted into D&D3E? Any thoughts? The ceremony isn't particularly rules heavy, IMO, and doesn't need much in the way of conversion. (Just read it off my Dragon CD-ROM the other day.) I have to check it against the 3E MM, but the ceremony seems pretty close to fine as-is. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:05:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recall DotE Book III saying that a Halfling Master in Alphatia would be a spellcaster and therefore an Aristocrat, but, according to GAZ8, Masters are not supposed to wander out of the Shires, lest their magical powers are diminished... Could the DotE mean that halfing communities with Masters are possible in out-of-Shires places, such as some (undetailed) regions of Alphatia??? Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:16:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: 3E Denial feat, first draft In-Reply-To: <002101c04436$c4750520$1fb5f4d1@uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 14:05 11/01/2000 -0500, Andr=E9s Piquer Otero wrote: >I recall DotE Book III saying that a Halfling Master in Alphatia would be a >spellcaster and therefore an Aristocrat, but, according to GAZ8, Masters= are >not supposed to wander out of the Shires, lest their magical powers are >diminished... Could the DotE mean that halfing communities with Masters are >possible in out-of-Shires places, such as some (undetailed) regions of >Alphatia??? Higher Masters can leave the Five Shires with spell abilities intact. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:53:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Let the Criticism continue! I've made some edits to the pre-Imperial section (both pages) and Bright Age section, but haven't gotten farther than that yet. These edits are mostly slight additions and modifications, plus remembering to put in Selim ben Hassan. Plus some rephrasings (especially of my tense problem, and rephrasings that clarify confusing sections) and the fixing of spelling errors. Check it out at: http://www.geocities.com/augustium/Thyatis/History/PreImperial.htm Which can still be compared to the original version which remains unchanged in the Tome of Mystara #3. Further edits to the remaining pages to follow as time permits. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:46:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero wrote: > I recall DotE Book III saying that a Halfling Master in Alphatia would be a > spellcaster and therefore an Aristocrat, but, according to GAZ8, Masters are > not supposed to wander out of the Shires, lest their magical powers are > diminished... Could the DotE mean that halfing communities with Masters are > possible in out-of-Shires places, such as some (undetailed) regions of > Alphatia??? > > Andr�s > > ******************************************************************** Three possibilities: 1) Allston made an error, not researching GAZ8 carefully enough. There are no halfling spellcasters in Alphatia. 2) Allston intended that halfling homelands in the Alphatian empire had a similar tie to the halflings as the Shires do, so halfling spellcasters exist. Halfling Masters exist in these other communities. 3) To have the canonical information in both DOTE and GAZ8 not contradict, the Halfling Masters that live in Alphatia are originally from the Shires. At some point the Masters in the Shires sent some of their members to protect these other communities. So Halfling masters exist in Alphatia, but only Halfling Masters of level 29+ are aristocrats, since at level 29, a Halfling Master can use and re-learn his magic outside of the Five Shires. Technically, a Halfling Master who leaves the Shires can still cast spells, but cannot re-learn them until they re-enter the Shires, unless they are of high enough level. So assuming Alphatia allows people to immigrate, how much testing would they do to be convinced an immigrant is a spellcaster and therefore qualifies as an aristocrat? Actually does Alphatia allow immigrants? Only spellcasters would want to move there, but each aristocrat requires the support of many slaves and servants. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:18:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Nope - our "change" makes things WORSE (I repeat that again) - Lucinius goes from being one of Zendrolium's victims to plotting with him to kill the others, Lucinius goes from being a "flawed hero" of the Struggle to an "evil schemer" along with the despotic Zendrolium. << Well, this seems like such a minor distinction, but I do have to agree with Andrew on this one. Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. This is just my personal preference, but I liked it much better in the original version. Zendrolium's crime just seems so much worse that way. This way at least part of the blame now falls upon Lucinius instead of wholly upon Zendrolium. Well, it is just a single point, and I can see where the revised version could provide more adventure ideas. Lucinius is a lich (and could still be around somewhere, right? I haven't read the full history at the Tome, so I don't know). John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:29:05 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed >> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << ROTFL Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight. Instead of having Zendrolion uniquely responsible for his crime (making it more of an individual thing done by him alone), we take the Hero of the Liberation and make him responsible for it as well, with *BOTH* then subsiquently involved in reigning as evil despots, then on top of that we make them both undead guys. . .and I'm accused of whitewashing Thyatian history and making it too nice. *GIGGLE* Sorry if I laugh, but that has to be a first. If that was the standard that was used in "whitewashing" the behavior of the Alphatians and making them seem too benign, then I would have no objections (I might object to them being portrayed too darkly, even!!) This has got to be a first, where someone takes a "grey-to-positive" character, makes him a "twisted-and-evil Lich" character, and is accused of transforming things into a too-benign portrayal. I do hope this will be the standard of critique used when folks develop various aspects of Alphatia. . .or, rather, i guess I don't. Talk about too extreme. >> This is just my personal preference, but I liked it much better in the original version. Zendrolium's crime just seems so much worse that way. This way at least part of the blame now falls upon Lucinius instead of wholly upon Zendrolium. << Zendrolion's individual crime might be worse, but it's limited to him himself (Thyatians themselves can claim, really, to be as much victimized by it as the Ochaleans and Pearl Islanders are - they're all in the same boat, each having their Kings equally assassinated by Zendrolion, who usurps the thrones of all - screwing them all over in an almost egalitarian fashion, though the Thyatians except their screwing with better grace.) In our version, the Thyatians are *not* in the same boat - the Thyatian guys screw over their allies, period. The "Hero of the Liberation" being among the plotters. This makes either of them better men? While they're undead? Again, *Giggle*. >> Well, it is just a single point, and I can see where the revised version could provide more adventure ideas. Lucinius is a lich (and could still be around somewhere, right? << Both are undead guys. . .both are still around. I have first dibs on doing character write ups on both (I wanted to for the last Tome, but didn't have time; I don't think I'll have time for this Tome, either. I want to do it right, not some slipshod, half-ass job.) Hint: Who's *really* the force, to this day, behind the Ordo Magna? Who is the Ordo Magna's mysterious leadership? (Another Hint: It's not Fluffy the Bunny or Favian Vern or Broderick or any other "happy, utopia" characters). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:43:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Offer >> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << Ok, well I'm a fair man. A reasonable man. If people *really* think that our version makes them come off as too nice pair of guys, they *really* think it ameliorates rather than exacerbates the crime, then tell me and I'll change it to the "canon" version. I'll think you're all insane for reaching that conclusion, but I'll "fix" it none the less. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Offer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > >> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same > time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << > > Ok, well I'm a fair man. A reasonable man. > If people *really* think that our version makes them come off as too nice pair of guys, they *really* think it ameliorates rather than exacerbates the crime, then tell me and I'll change it to the "canon" version. > > I'll think you're all insane for reaching that conclusion, but I'll "fix" it none the less. > I prefer the Lucinius lich idea, I thought it was a nice touch. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:50:59 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:17 PM 10/31/00 -0500, you wrote: > >It's kind of. . .strange. . .to have someone read something that has Lucinius plot >and scheme with Zendrolium to kill the Kings of Ochalea & the Pearl Islands, cover >it up, and then both go on to take control over the entire place, ruling as despots >(something the history specifically says about Zendrolium's reign), ultimately >becoming undead, and see that as IN ANY WAY "absolving" either of them. Since you asked, my contention was that while, yes, it doesn't absolve either of them of the murder of the kings of Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, it does minimize Zendrolion's treachery (by reducing the number of murders he actively commits), and it rejects canon by stating that Zendrolion and Lucinius were complete and equal allies, whereas DotE has it that Zendrolion was plotting against his "ally" Lucinius from stage one of the whole Thyatian/Alphatian war. Ie, it downplays his treachery from being complete and total to being a cabal between him and Lucinius. None of which is to say in any way that I don't like the Thyatian timeline- indeed, I think it is a nice bit of work, and does a tremendous amount of fleshing out the history of that empire. There are bits that I don't care overmuch for and won't use in my own campaigns (notably the cooperation between Zendrolion and Lucinius, and the lichdom-izing of Lucinius), but they are minimal. My main point was just to point out that writers are always modifiying and reinterpreting things as they see fit, whether or not such "revisions" are to the liking of others. Happens all the time, and I think these endless discussions on the merits of one over the other tend to get a little long-winded, and people seem to forget that point and things get way too heated. But YMMV. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:53:24 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:34 PM 10/31/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Again, it seems someone thinks I should have shame for something that I don't see as >shameful at all. Never implied that at all, if you inferred that I apologize. See my other post for my explanation of what (I thought) my point was. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:55:36 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:07 PM 10/31/00 -0500, you wrote: > >and critique it. Slams **(including undeserved one's, like Andrew's)** welcome, >along with critiques, suggestions for additions & modifications, or outright flames >regarding how badly written and concieved it is are welcomed. Nice. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:08:14 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:29 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight. Instead of having Zendrolion uniquely >responsible for his crime (making it more of an individual thing done by him >alone), we take the Hero of the Liberation and make him responsible for it as >well, with *BOTH* then subsiquently involved in reigning as evil despots, then on >top of that we make them both undead guys. . .and I'm accused of whitewashing >Thyatian history and making it too nice. As usual, James is overreacting. First, I never accused you of 'whitewashing' anything, nor do I believe anyone else did. Here's the quote from my original message: "Admittedly, the above doesn't completely absolve the Thyatians of their treachery (as perhaps some of the "Dupuisan Heresy" did towards Alphatians), but it does rewrite history in ways from which they had previously been established (in particular as regards the cooperation of Lucinius and Zendrolion)." The confusion, seemingly, stems from my use of the phrase "doesn't completely absolve". Note that the phrase as used does not say that it absolves the Thyatians in any way, though I suppose I can possibly see where one might view it that I was implying that it was attempting to "absolve" them. No, in fact it was in reference to the original topic of the thread, about the "Dupuisan Heresy" seemingly absolving the Alphatians of their evil ways. The way I meant for it to have been read then, is thusly: "Admittedly, the above doesn't completely absolve the Thyatians of their treachery in the way that the "Dupuisan Heresy" would seem to absolve the Alphatians, but it does rewrite history..." etc. Nope. Looking back, I don't really see how the original message could possibly have been misread, not with that parentheses in there. Just James having a knee-jerk reaction to what he erroneously interpreted as a personal attack against him. My apologies James. I was trying very hard to tiptoe around your feelings towards Thyatis, and thought I'd done a good job of it. Guess I underestimated how sensitive you are. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:09:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Offer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:43 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >If people *really* think that our version makes them come off as too nice pair of >guys, they *really* think it ameliorates rather than exacerbates the crime, then >tell me and I'll change it to the "canon" version. That was never the suggestion. Just pointing out (again, ad nauseum) that it is a revision that differs from canon. The same as the supposed "Dupuisan Heresy" (which, technically, is canon, but we've been all over that.) >**I'll think you're all insane** for reaching that conclusion, but I'll "fix" it >none the less. (Asterisks mine) Just so long as you're not taking this personally. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Offer >> I prefer the Lucinius lich idea, I thought it was a nice touch. << Ok, easy. I have a way to use the "canon" version and still have Lucinius become a lich (and later Zendrolion undead as well). Not a problem. I'll be switching it to the "canon" version but with that outcome. If people don't think that's possible, watch for the next update. Its easy. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! >> **(including undeserved one's, like Andrew's)** << > Nice. < Sorry, but I honestly don't think that the criticism was deserved, in how it was phrased; I don't see in this instance the change as "absolving" the Thyatians, whether completely or partially (which was your implication), but rather making the crimes of the Thyatians worse. I don't even see how it makes Zendrolium a "nicer" guy (he still commits murders and rules as a despot - as is explicitly stated. I don't think the "canon" history even goes so far as to openly say he rules as a tyrant and despot). If you don't find the word "undeserved" warranted, I apologize for that, but I still can't see how the version I had absolves the Thyatians of their treachery, when it takes the treachery of one man - who betrays the Thyatian hero, too, lets remember, and makes it the treachery of both of them (and thus of the Thyatians against the Pearl Islanders and Ochaleans, rather than the treachery of Zendrolion against the Pearl Islanders, Ochaleans, *and* the Thyatians). Anyhow, I certainly took "doesn't completely absolve" as a strong implication that you felt that it partially (even *almost* completely but not quite) absolved them. I just couldn't understand that. If my interpretation of what you meant was incorrect, then I appologize for that, too, but that's how I read what you said - and as implying (again, strongly) a "whitewash" (because of what I took to be your implication that we attempted to partially and possibly even almost but not quite completely absolve them, when the opposite was our intent in this case). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:59:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Offer >> That was never the suggestion. Just pointing out (again, ad nauseum) that it is a revision that differs from canon. The same as the supposed "Dupuisan Heresy" (which, technically, is canon, but we've been all over that.) << If you think that simply differing from "canon" was the issue, then I don't think you've been paying much attention to those threads which you decry. Which is perfectly your right - I don't pay attention to threads that I'm not interested, either. But since you've decided to interject yourself pointedly, then you should familiarize yourself with the issues at hand: which aren't simply the change, but the one-sided and rather agregious nature of the change in that instance, PLUS, yes, the fact that this "reality shift" masquerades as canon. Check through the mails written by me in this thread which you decry, and you'll note that the vast perponderance takes issue not with some fan-created thing lionizing their favorite nation, but with PRECISELY this "canon reality shift"; it's not called a "Jamugan Heresy" or a "Alexian Heresy". The fact that I might or might not agree with what they write being irrelivant. The things involved in these discussions aren't of interest to you, and that's fine, so I can understand why you haven't familiarized yourself with their thrust. But then to interject yourself - and be offended at me for misunderstanding your argument (when I don't think you understand mine at all) is strange. As for what you wrote that I'm enclosing below in a quote, well I wasn't going to comment on it and I won't except to wonder which of us is the overly sensitive one. Oh, and I'll also say that I accept the apology in the true sincerity with which I know it was offered. >> Just James having a knee-jerk reaction to what he erroneously interpreted as a personal attack against him. << >> My apologies James. I was trying very hard to tiptoe around your feelings towards Thyatis, and thought I'd done a good job of it. Guess I underestimated how sensitive you are. << ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:18:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Explaination >> Just pointing out (again, ad nauseum) that it is a revision that differs from canon. The same as the supposed "Dupuisan Heresy" (which, technically, is canon, but we've been all over that.) << I'm going to try and explain this better once more, something I thought would be clear but obviously is not. The change from "canon" is not what is at issue so much as the NATURE and content of that change, and how it was and is imposed that I dissent from. And the fact that what amounts to a destruction, but an unaknowledged one, within "canon", a "revision" done by an author or authors that effectively disregards the "canon" description of a place, and replaces it with a new (and never fully explained) version, imposing it and in such a way that "strongly implies" that the place was always like that, and which in the process expropriates aspects of another "canon" nation for the 'prefered' one and then imposes many of the former "negative" aspects of the 'prefered' one on this other nation (I said once before that Alphatia is possibly the only Mystaran country for which the Gazeteer written for it is not taken by many as being an accurate description of the society in questi! ! on, but that's not true - for the opposite reason, Thyatis is also such a nation, since whatever "positive" aspects it was described as having were invalidated and replaced with negative ones during this Doppelgangerization). A recent reply in the "Haldemar & Slavery" exchange encapsulated in one post what I have found irritating about this situation. And I'm sorry to pick on one poster, because he's far from alone and he was probably just expressing the impression he got from others. This post described why an Alphatian might see slavery in other lands as abhorent but not in Alphatia by, in effect, transferance: Alphatian slaves, this poster suggested, had several advantages not found in other countries, including the fact that they could earn & save money to buy their freedom, and furthermore the Alphatians only condemned criminals to slavery as a penalty for breaking the law, they didn't conquer and enslave people. Thus was set in opposition to how places like, say, Thyatis handled things, where presumably these options weren't open to slaves, the slaves had no legal protections, and the Thyatians (unlike the Alphatians) enslaved those they conquered. This is akin to the expressions in PWA III o! ! f Broderick concerned that Xanthus observe "Imperial Law" in putting down the uprising of Jennite slaves. So what happens here in these changes/canon revisions is: 1) They are all seemingly aimed at revising Alphatia for the better, eliminating its flaws (or, rather, in many cases, "what flaws? What contempt for non-spellcasters? Just look at how they admire Broderick") 2) It involves not only a change/distortion of Alphatian society, but imposing converse changes on the "dispised" society, swapping things out and then for good measure improving them one step further for the Alphatians (I.E. in the "changed" version, it is the Alphatians, not the Thyatians, who allow their slaves to save up and buy their freedom; in the "changed" version, too, the Alphatians don't even enslave conquered peoples at all - just criminals, making the rest "Alphatian Citizens" I guess; which again swaps things around because in the "previous canon" version, it was the Thyatians who gave conquered folks Citizenship, leading to some question about how they aquired slaves in the first place, while it was somewhat obvious how the Alphatians aquired slaves - but in the "new" version one has to wonder how the Jennites became slaves, since they couldn't *all* have been criminals). Similarly with "Imperial Law" - under the "old Canon", we can look it up: in Thyatis, Old V! ! ersion, Imperial Law prevented severe punishment (mutilation or killing) of slaves without legal process, and even attempted escape (runaways) was treated as a "Lesser Charge" (not a Greater Charge). While in "Old Version" Alphatia, what did "Imperial Law" proscribe? The immediate death penalty for slaves who touched a weapon except to defend their master, and the death penalty for runaways. Meaning that Xanthus, per the "Old Version" Alphatia, would, by the "Imperial Law" that Broderick invokes, be fully justified (and, indeed, *mandated* by duty to the Alphatian Empire) to KILL ALL THE REBELS WITHOUT RESTRAINT - they have all earned the death penalty, touching weapons (and "running away", since presumably the rebelling Jennites weren't hanging around with their owners and obeying them). But, in the "change" that was IMPOSED, this evidently got swapped around completely - the Thyatian ("Old Version") version of slavery becoming the Alphatian ("New Version") version, and vice ! ! versa. This is, at best, playing dirty pool. Done in "canon" hardly makes it better, but rather exacerbates the situation and makes it worse, not more acceptable (Unless you think Lucy pulling the football away at the last minute before Charlie Brown kicks it is the type of behavior you find admirable). This just deals with one aspect of this "switchero", too; the slavery aspect. Jens said in one of his recent posts that he doesn't mind folks holding whatever interpretation they want but that what he doesn't want is to have this IMPOSED upon him. I fully agree. But this "switchero" has been IMPOSED upon us in large ways and small. For fans of Alphatia, I guess most of them don't mind this sort of IMPOSITION (though in an earlier post this morning Caroleti explained why even they perhaps shouldn't like it so much, being how the Perfect Society version cuts down on adventure/character oportunities, some of which he listed - but by no means an exaustive list). These changes are imposed in later "canon" (authored by you-know-who), and in "net canon" as well (one thing I'll never forget was when I wrote something set in Bellissaria, a "Melian Dialogue" between the coming Alphatians and some previous inhabitants, and I got jumped all over because a certain someone had decided that Bellissaria wasn't inhabited at all before the noble Alphatians came to settle it peacefully, and how dare I suggest otherwise in any way. . .a means of IMPOSING the "new", altered version. Of course, I didn't submit to these impositions then, as I don't now.) Bu! ! t these changes are imposed in other ways - MAs, for example, are infused with the assumption that the "changed/revised" version is THE version. Suggesting otherwise leads to conflict. Rejecting the "new" version leads to exasperation and the like. The assumption being that one should just accept it. But *these* particular changes/revisions aren't just isolated things that only affect the country in question (How did my Lucinius/Zendrolion "change" impact Alphatia? Or Karameikos? Or Ylaruam? Or even Ochalea & the Pearl Islands? The latter two places still got their Kings killed. A change that makes Zendrolion come off as benign and makes the Kings of Ochalea & the Pearl Islands "bad guys" I can see as being an objectionable alteration). But the "changes" that have been made with respect to Alphatia have not been "costless" ones for the world around them - in "revising" the Alphatians to make them better, more noble, their society more admirable, surrounding nations (mainly Thyatis, but also the Jennites - rebelling again now makes them seem like ingrates rejecting the bounty given to them by the kindly Alphatians, rather than as people seeking freedom from a conquerer) have been simoultaniously and conversely altered for the worse (if the Alphatians are noble and admirable! ! , then those who oppose them, must be evil and ignoble. If the Alphatians treat their slaves with consideration, giving them rights, legal protections, and the oportunity to buy their way out of their condition, then others must not do it that way. If the Alphatians are a cosmopolitan people who embrace all sorts of cultures and accept everyone they absorb into their Empire as citizens equal to any Alphatian, then others must not do it that way. If the Alphatians have a strong and invincible army, then others must be laughingly inept, incapable of imposing Mighty Alphatia - but the Alphatians, being good and noble like they are, are forebarent and rarely use their unstopable might - Alphatians are not a conquering people, you see, but a peace-loving race who gained their Empire through Invitation, and only go to war to stamp out some evil in other lands.) So, hopefully you'll understand now: it's not change as such that I abhore (if there is a good reason for it), but the specific changes that have been imposed - coupled with the fact that some seem to insist that no change occured at all, or that it was minor and inconsiquential, and also coupled with the fact that opposing the imposition of these changes is seen as outrageous behavior. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:49:07 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: 3E Denial feat, first draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-01 4:44:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, dave@PALMCHIP.COM writes: > 2) Allston intended that halfling homelands in the Alphatian empire had a > similar tie to the halflings as the Shires do, so halfling spellcasters exist. > Halfling Masters exist in these other communities. That would seem to be the most reasonable approach to take. I would suggest that Masters from Alphatia would be tasked to protect the Halflings of that empire and thus could wander the Alphatian Empire freely -- but they would not have access to the Denial or Improved Denial feats/abilities. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:49:22 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Halflings and religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-01 3:19:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > Halflings are good people. Except for their pirates, of course -- and even some of them may be unwilling to carry things as far as pirates of other races might.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Halflings and religion In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:49 11/2/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >> Halflings are good people. > >Except for their pirates, of course -- and even some of them may be >unwilling to carry things as far as pirates of other races might.... Tsk. Haven't you ever seen "The Pirates of Penzance?" Pirates are good people. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:35:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > This is just my personal preference, but I liked it much better in the original version. > Zendrolium's crime just seems so much worse that way. This way at least part of the > blame now falls upon Lucinius instead of wholly upon Zendrolium. You can have Zendrolion plan the murder of the three kings and execute it alone, while Lucinius, who has learned everything through his magic, doesn't stop him, instead preparing himself to come back as an undead (probably an ancient dead, in this version). This way, Zendrolion's crime is unchanged, but Lucinius becomes an evil schemer himself. Giampaolo Agosta ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:12:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Night dragons In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001101084136.007c3100@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > At 13:32 11/1/00 +0100, H�vard wrote: > > I think it should be a transformation at the will of the Entropic > Immortals, leaving the door open for a few unwilling transformations. "The > night dragon is WHO?" The undead, IMO, should be scary, and making all of > the transformations willing ones undercuts that. Actually thats a pretty good idea. I didnt think about that :) > >Which brings me onto another Draconic topic. How should the Ceremony of > >Sublimination rules be converted into D&D3E? Any thoughts? > > The ceremony isn't particularly rules heavy, IMO, and doesn't need much in > the way of conversion. (Just read it off my Dragon CD-ROM the other day.) I > have to check it against the 3E MM, but the ceremony seems pretty close to > fine as-is. Yeah. However, I dont think its fair to make the dragons undergo the ceremony every time they gain an age category. Perhaps every fourth age category requires a ceremony? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:18:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed >> This way, Zendrolion's crime is unchanged, but Lucinius becomes an evil schemer himself. << Darn it! You let the cat out of the bag. That was just the sort of change I was going to incorporate. 8-) I'll still do it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:39:11 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Truth About Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Since you asked, my contention was that while, yes, it doesn't absolve > either of them of the murder of the kings of Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, > it does minimize Zendrolion's treachery (by reducing the number of murders > he actively commits), and it rejects canon by stating that Zendrolion and Okay, so if Jack murders three people and John murders two people, then John is somehow a much better person than Jack? That's the impression I got from your explanation. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:47:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << James writes: >> ROTFL Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight. Instead of having Zendrolion uniquely responsible for his crime (making it more of an individual thing done by him alone), we take the Hero of the Liberation and make him responsible for it as well, with *BOTH* then subsiquently involved in reigning as evil despots, then on top of that we make them both undead guys. . .and I'm accused of whitewashing Thyatian history and making it too nice. << Well, I don't think you do have this straight. I never accused you af whitewashing anything. I simply said that I liked the canon version better. Nothing else was implied. >> *GIGGLE* Sorry if I laugh, but that has to be a first. << Yes, you should be. I certainly don't think I deserve such treatment. I was merely expressing an opinion. If you feel that this is a mature way to discuss things, by trying to degrade your opposition, well then I'm sorry. I guess I expected too much. If you want to discuss this topic, then fine. I think we could pull something useful from it. But I'm not going to be laughed at. I think that's just plain rude. >> If that was the standard that was used in "whitewashing" the behavior of the Alphatians and making them seem too benign, then I would have no objections (I might object to them being portrayed too darkly, even!!) This has got to be a first, where someone takes a "grey-to-positive" character, makes him a "twisted-and-evil Lich" character, and is accused of transforming things into a too-benign portrayal. << I never once mentioned Alphatia in my post. I never compared your treatment of Thyatian history to the treatment of Alpher history. Does Alphatia have any bearing on this discussion? What I did say was that converting a "grey-to-positive" character into a "twisted-and-evil Lich" character (Lucinius), seems to lessen Zendrolium's crime. Do you disagree? >> >> This is just my personal preference, but I liked it much better in the original version. Zendrolium's crime just seems so much worse that way. This way at least part of the blame now falls upon Lucinius instead of wholly upon Zendrolium. << Zendrolion's individual crime might be worse, but it's limited to him himself (Thyatians themselves can claim, really, to be as much victimized by it as the Ochaleans and Pearl Islanders are - they're all in the same boat, each having their Kings equally assassinated by Zendrolion, who usurps the thrones of all - screwing them all over in an almost egalitarian fashion, though the Thyatians except their screwing with better grace.) In our version, the Thyatians are *not* in the same boat - the Thyatian guys screw over their allies, period. << Ok. Like I said before, I do see the adventure potentials in this. But does it really make a difference (in the long run) who got screwed over? Would making either the canonical version of history, or your version, the accurate/real version of Thyatian history, change the mindset of any given individual Thyatian? >> The "Hero of the Liberation" being among the plotters. This makes either of them better men? While they're undead? << What? Did I ever say this. If I did, then I'll gladly retract my statement (but I didn't). >> Again, *Giggle*. << Again, you can couch your insults in these "friendly" -giggles-, but I don't appreciate them. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:00:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > This is just my personal preference, but I liked it much better in the original version. > Zendrolium's crime just seems so much worse that way. This way at least part of the > blame now falls upon Lucinius instead of wholly upon Zendrolium. You can have Zendrolion plan the murder of the three kings and execute it alone, while Lucinius, who has learned everything through his magic, doesn't stop him, instead preparing himself to come back as an undead (probably an ancient dead, in this version). This way, Zendrolion's crime is unchanged, but Lucinius becomes an evil schemer himself. << This I like much more. In fact (dare I say it) I like this much better than the canon version. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:53:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Since you asked, my contention was that while, yes, it doesn't absolve > either of them of the murder of the kings of Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, > it does minimize Zendrolion's treachery (by reducing the number of murders > he actively commits), and it rejects canon by stating that Zendrolion and Okay, so if Jack murders three people and John murders two people, then John is somehow a much better person than Jack? That's the impression I got from your explanation. << That's not the impression I got at all. Nor the one I was trying to give. History 1: Jack murders 5 people (including his best friend John). John is a hero. History 2: Jack and John Murder 4 people together. In both histories Jack is evil. No doubt about that. The question is in which history is Jack more evil? Of course the above question is only really important if you want Jack to be as evil as he can be. Some people might. Some people might find history 1 more interesting, and some might like history 2 better. So what? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed >>> The "Hero of the Liberation" being among the plotters. This makes either of them better men? While they're undead? <<< >> What? Did I ever say this. If I did, then I'll gladly retract my statement (but I didn't). << You wrote: >> Well, this seems like such a minor distinction, but I do have to agree with Andrew on this one. Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << That makes it sound like you think it made them less nasty. >> Again, you can couch your insults in these "friendly" -giggles-, but I don't appreciate them. << I do appologize for that. People dislike it when I reply seriously, evidently (see previous mails), so I thought perhaps laughing it off would come across better. I was obviously mistaken; I do appologize for that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:31:47 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Calvin wrote: > > History 1: > Jack murders 5 people (including his best friend John). > John is a hero. > > History 2: > Jack and John Murder 4 people together. > > In both histories Jack is evil. No doubt about that. The question is in which history > is Jack more evil? > As far as I can see, he is just as evil in both of them (but maybe it's just me). Is evil a mathematical term, so that if you divide it by 2 you get something which is half as evil? > Of course the above question is only really important if you want Jack to be as evil as > he can be. Some people might. Some people might find history 1 more interesting, and > some might like history 2 better. So what? > Personally, I prefer people in my histories to be neither utterly evil nor shining good, but somewhere in between. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:50:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > >>> The "Hero of the Liberation" being among the plotters. This makes either of them better men? While they're undead? <<< > > >> What? Did I ever say this. If I did, then I'll gladly retract my statement (but I didn't). << > > You wrote: > >> Well, this seems like such a minor distinction, but I do have to agree with Andrew on this one. Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << > > That makes it sound like you think it made them less nasty. Well, maybe you (James) are a little exaggerating here...he says clearly "it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better". And he also says "does make Lucinius worse...". He was just saying that he preferred it when Zendrolium was the sole evil... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:27:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Poll: What is your favourite nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, guys. Now explain me why we are 261 and I have collected just 77 votes (plus 3 people who told me they are not going to vote). Alfheim: 5 Alphatia: 5,5 Bellayne: 1 Broken Lands: 1 Cynidicea: 1 (by the way, what happened to the Cyn. Project?) Darokin: 6 Ethengar: 3 Five Shires: 1,5 Glantri: 13,5 Hule: 2 Ierendi: 1 Karameikos: 13 Minrothad: 1 Nithia: 1 Northern Reaches: 1,5 Norwold: 3,5 Rockhome: 2 Serraine: 0,5 Thyatis: 7 Shadow Elves: 1,5 Wendar: 1,5 Yavdlom: 1 Ylaruam: 3 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:50:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Poll: What is your favourite nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My vote is for any nation but the Two Empires. (My delete finger has gotten tired.) Um, er, I mean, Of course I vote for the Realm of the Master, Light of the Great Valley and the Sanctified Lands ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:25:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> You wrote: >> Well, this seems like such a minor distinction, but I do have to agree with Andrew on this one. Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << That makes it sound like you think it made them less nasty. << <<< Caroletti writes: >> He was just saying that he preferred it when Zendrolium was the sole evil... << Yup. That's what I was trying to say at least. However, allow me to further refine/modify that thought. I preferred it when Zendrolium was the ultimate betrayer. The act just looses something for me when done in concert with another (ie Lucinius). However there was a suggestion (by Agathokles IIRC) that would keep Zendrolium in his "ultimate betrayer" role while also allowing Lucinius to become more evil. I like that plot too. >> I do appologize for that. People dislike it when I reply seriously, evidently (see previous mails), so I thought perhaps laughing it off would come across better. I was obviously mistaken; I do appologize for that. << Ok. Apology accepted. Thanks for giving one. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:55:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Origin of the name Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, I'm sure that this has probably been discussed on the mailing list before, but I found myself wondering the other day about the origin of the name "Mystara" for our favorite gameworld. Not the reason TSR named it that (although I've wondered about that too), but why the inhabitants of the world choose to call it Mystara. I've looked around Shawn's site, and I didn't see any mention of this particular question. If there's a canon explanation somewhere that I've missed or a non-canon explanation from the newsgroup or MMB, I'd like to have a pointer to it. The explanation I came up with for myself was that the world "Mystara" is probably Alphatian in origin: a name they gave to the world or to the solar system before they arrived. Since they held the Thyatians and other nations in their power for so long, words from their language were bound to enter into the common Thyatian language, and dialects of Thyatian seem to be considered the "common tongue" of the world. Any other ideas? Jeremy -- Jeremy Morris (morris@mcs.kent.edu) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:15:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Poll: What is your favourite nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Master's Pawn wrote: > My vote is for any nation but the Two Empires. (My delete finger has gotten > tired.) > > Um, er, I mean, Of course I vote for the Realm of the Master, Light of the > Great Valley and the Sanctified Lands Your vote has already been delivered about 9 months ago! Thanks anyway for your interest in my poll!!! Iulius ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:59:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > History 1: > Jack murders 5 people (including his best friend John). > John is a hero. > > History 2: > Jack and John Murder 4 people together. > > In both histories Jack is evil. No doubt about that. The question is in which history > is Jack more evil? > As far as I can see, he is just as evil in both of them (but maybe it's just me). Is evil a mathematical term, so that if you divide it by 2 you get something which is half as evil? Personally, I prefer people in my histories to be neither utterly evil nor shining good, but somewhere in between. << Ok, I guess I'm going to open the can of worms and say that the answer to your question is "yes" - at least sort of. If the answer is "no", then how do we come up with those shades of grey that you mention? Now, perhaps murder is not a very good example of this. How evil are you if you kill 1 person as compared to if you kill 10 or 20 or 500 or 1 million? In the examples above, the question I ask myself is "How far was Zendrolium willing to go in order to gain power?" In one example he is willing to murder several heads of state in order to gain their lands. In another example he is willing to murder several heads of state in order to gain their lands...PLUS murder someone who is supposedly his friend (just because he doesn't want to share). In this case it's not so much a matter of numbers (how many did he kill?), but rather who did he kill, and for what reason? Maybe I'm crazy, but it just seems like when Zendrolium kills a friend (if Zendrolium truely had any to begin with) he becomes so much more evil (or perhaps that should be Chaotic Evil). I'm certainly not trying to reduce this to a numbers game. If you kill x number of people you are only slightly evil, while if you kill y you are way over the top evil. That's not what I'm saying at all. There is clearly more to "being evil" than mere numbers. Take this example: A soldier fighting for his life kills an enemy soldier. A thief in a crime syndicate kills his own brother to take control. They have both taken exactly one life. Which is more evil? I don't think that they are equally evil (in fact I would argue that the soldier isn't evil at all). I guess my original point was that 1) Zendrolium killing kings = evil 2) Zendrolium killing kings + killing his friend (or at least trying to) = more evil >From a gaming standpoint I like the latter. Am I way off base here, or am I the only one who sees a difference in these two acts? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:47:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The explanation I came up with for myself was that the world "Mystara" > is probably Alphatian in origin: a name they gave to the world or to the > solar system before they arrived. Since they held the Thyatians and other > nations in their power for so long, words from their language were bound to > enter into the common Thyatian language, and dialects of Thyatian seem to > be considered the "common tongue" of the world. > > Any other ideas? This could in fact be a possibility. What if Mystara means something like "Alien World" or something in Alphatian? We could also come up with names of Mystara in other languages. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:42:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Calvin wrote: > > 1) Zendrolium killing kings = evil > 2) Zendrolium killing kings + killing his friend (or at least trying to) = more evil > I would say it's rather: 1) Zendrolium killing kings + turning himself and his friend into a nasty lich so they can kill many more people = evil 2) Zendrolium killing kings + killing his friend (or at least trying to) = about as evil -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:29:12 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> John Calvin wrote: > > 1) Zendrolium killing kings = evil > 2) Zendrolium killing kings + killing his friend (or at least trying to) = more evil > I would say it's rather: 1) Zendrolium killing kings + turning himself and his friend into a nasty lich so they can kill many more people = evil 2) Zendrolium killing kings + killing his friend (or at least trying to) = about as evil << I wasn't aware that that was the rational behind becoming a lich. Let's become undead so that we have more time to kill others. That's interesting. I won't deny that a lich would be capable of killing many people throughout its existence, but I find it surprising that killing people would actually be its rational. Immortality, yes. Power, yes. But simply to kill more people? Hmmm... Killing would definately be a byproduct of any lich, but the initial goal? I don't buy it. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <3A01C4EB.944C6BF0@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:47:55PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Caroletti wrote on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:47:55PM EST > > The explanation I came up with for myself was that the world "Mystara" > > is probably Alphatian in origin: a name they gave to the world or to the > > solar system before they arrived. Since they held the Thyatians and other > > nations in their power for so long, words from their language were bound to > > enter into the common Thyatian language, and dialects of Thyatian seem to > > be considered the "common tongue" of the world. > > > > Any other ideas? > > This could in fact be a possibility. What if Mystara means something like > "Alien World" or something in Alphatian? > We could also come up with names of Mystara in other languages. That's kind of what I was thinking. It could also be something like "New Home" or "This time we won't blow it up" in Alphatian ;) The Ethengar Gaz. seems to indicate that they call their lands the "World Yurt", but I don't remember if that's supposed to refer to the Ethengar lands in particular, or the whole world in general. (They might also refer to the world as "Yamuga", since that is the name of their "Earth Mother" figure.) If I remember right, the Northern Reaches Gaz. refers to the world as "Midgard" (like the traditional Norse), but I'm not sure if that is meant to be the world or the whole Prime Material Plane. I would imagine that a few cultures would use the name of an "Earth Mother" figure, so some might call it Terra, Djea or Ordana. I could see the elves (especially the Minrothad clans) using the name Ordana for the world. For the most part, however, I would imagine that the name Mystara is fairly prevalent throughout the Known World and most of the Savage Coast. If the Thyatians picked it up as part of their language while they were subjects of the Alphatians, then any nation with a Thyatian colonial background (i.e. Karameikos, Ylaruam, the Savage Baronies, etc.) or any nation with a large influx of Thyatians (i.e. Heldann, Darokin, Glantri, etc.) would probably use the name Mystara. The Hollow World, however, would be another story. I'm not even quite sure where to start with that. -- Jeremy Morris (morris@mcs.kent.edu) - LAN Support Specialist Math & Computer Science Dept. - Kent State University ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Alphatians were not the first "aliens" to arrive into Mystara. Maybe the name of the planet goes back to the Blackmoor era and it was adopted by Mystara-native primitive Blackmoorians after their contacts with aliens, then kept. Of course, the original word will have suffered lotsa evolution in linguistic terms... I would say that "Mystara" is the common Thyatian now. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Query on Module X10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! I'm thinking of purchasing a copy of Red Arrow Black Shield, which is affordable but lacks the gaming counters. I would like to know which use the counters are: are they for Battlesystem or for some "house tabletop system", like the one with fleets in GAZ4? Is the module playable with just War Machine rules, providing stats for the nations which don't have them in their GAZs and so on??? Thanks, Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:31:43 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Calvin wrote: > > I wasn't aware that that was the rational behind becoming a lich. Let's become undead so > that we have more time to kill others. That's interesting. > > I won't deny that a lich would be capable of killing many people throughout its > existence, but I find it surprising that killing people would actually be its rational. > Immortality, yes. Power, yes. But simply to kill more people? Hmmm... Killing would > definately be a byproduct of any lich, but the initial goal? I don't buy it. > I would say that killing Alphatian sympathisers/whoever opposed their rule would definitely be on their agenda. People don't generally become liches so they can give out flowers and pet bunnies. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:44:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Origin of name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, why don't we try to find more than one explanation to the name's origin? I mean: even if Alphatia and Thyatis are the two empires that more probably have been able to influence the other nations' mindset and language, it's a little too dull to have everything come from Alphatia, or from Thyatis, or from Alphatia via Thyatis. So we should try to find new explanations...ok, I'll try first 8-) When the Neathar people were still young, and the differences between the tribes were few, they spoke about the same language, a language that would later become the origin of all Neathar based languages. At the time, the Neathar worshipped basically three Immortals, that represented the three "social classes" that were present in the Neathar tribes. Dios was the God of Light, and he was the protector of the shamans and of those who attended the religious cults. He also controlled that nobody broke oaths or their words. He would later be known as the Sun Prince (Ixion). Uari was the God of War, and he blessed fighters and hunters. He was also the one who was called upon by kings and clan leaders in times of need. Tara was the Goddess of Earth, and fertility. She protected the productive categories and women: among the most primitive tribes, she helped the food gatherers, but with the coming of agricolture she protected those too, and later the first "merchants". Tara was also the name given by the Neathar to their land, and thus, given their great expansion, it later came to refere to all the world, although with the denotation of Mi (= "my"). So the name changed into Mitara (= "My Earth"), and later among the different populations it took different variations: in the end, the name Mystara, a simplification of the Antalian word "Min-starra", became the word by which the people of the Old World and Alphatia call the planet. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:39:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Query on Module X10 Mystara wrote: >> are they for Battlesystem or for some "house tabletop system", like the one with fleets in GAZ4? Is the module playable with just War Machine rules, providing stats for the nations which don't have them in their GAZs and so on??? << The counters are War Machine unit counters, but stats (and unit numbers) are included in the text of the module itself, though, so if you don't mind not having the counters you'll still get all the info you need. I'd want it to have the map though, for sure (not because it's a great map, but it is a good map for running the war, being nice and big). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:39:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <000e01c04511$257d40a0$21b5f4d1@uchicago.edu>; from anpro@ACCESOCERO.ES on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:09:01PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero wrote on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:09:01PM EST > The Alphatians were not the first "aliens" to arrive into Mystara. Maybe the > name of the planet goes back to the Blackmoor era and it was adopted by > Mystara-native primitive Blackmoorians after their contacts with aliens, > then kept. Of course, the original word will have suffered lotsa evolution > in linguistic terms... I would say that "Mystara" is the common Thyatian > now. Yeah, I thought about that possiblity too. If I recall correctly though, the only aliens the Blackmoor people dealt with were St. Stephen's group (from the temple of the Frog) and the traitor who made everyone but Benekander's stasis units malfunction. If that's the case, I don't see them having as big an impact on the language of the world. (I could be wrong about who they came into contact with, however). The Alphatians, on the other hand, invaded and conquered a large chunk of the world. I don't remember how long they had control of the Thyatians, but I would think being a subject nation would get a number of words injected into your cultural language -- look at all of the French words in the English language, for example). Of course, it could be an ancient Nithian word. Then, when the Immortals enacted the Spell of Oblivion and the Alphatians forgot where the word came from, they'd just assume that they'd come up with it or gotten it from one of their subject nations. :) I think you're right about it being the common Thyatian word for the world now. Jeremy -- Jeremy Morris (morris@mcs.kent.edu) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Yeah, I thought about that possiblity too. If I recall correctly though, >the only aliens the Blackmoor people dealt with were St. Stephen's group >(from the temple of the Frog) and the traitor who made everyone but >Benekander's stasis units malfunction. If that's the case, I don't see >them having as big an impact on the language of the world. (I could >be wrong about who they came into contact with, however). That's right, but what if the word started as an "intellectual term", which later, with the fast rise of the Blackmoor tech, became more widespread??? When Blackmoorian technology started to have understanding of Mystara as a planet, as it problably did, they could assume the obscure little-used word of those small groups of Blackmoor past. And, after the destruction of Blackmoor, it was problably spread even further by the elven migrations... Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:07:15 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Poll: What is your favourite nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Master requires voting early and voting often. Praise be . . . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:13:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Games Mystarans play Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, checkers, Chinese checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? Do Mystarans play cards? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:23:32 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: KSoM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone developed the Karamekean School of Magecraft or have any ideas about how to make up a distinctly Karamekean (with a dash of Alphatian, of course) school of magic? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:24:02 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Krakatos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As I've only got the write-up that's in KKoA, I was wondering if there's any additional sources of information about Krakatos out there. Thanks. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:34:54 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, checkers, Chinese checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? Do Mystarans play cards? << IIRC there is a game played in Thothia called "Spider". Kind of like checkers played on a board shaped like a web. Well...not really... From Talons of Night (M5??). Can't think of any others off the top of my head. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Krakatos >> As I've only got the write-up that's in KKoA, I was wondering if there's any additional sources of information about Krakatos out there. << There's the write-up of the School & Krakatos in one of the issues of the Dragon, but I forget which one (in the 170s by issue number, IICR). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:50:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16.45a7f6a.273357cd_boundary" --part1_16.45a7f6a.273357cd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/00 6:37:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: > Can't think of any others off the top of my head. > > I'm partial to Spottle (described in the module "At the Spottle Parlor" in DUNGEON #12). The game involves a special spottle toad and some dice covered with powdered fly particles. It has that goofy/fun Mystara feel to it :) --part1_16.45a7f6a.273357cd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/00 6:37:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes:


Can't think of any others off the top of my head.



I'm partial to Spottle (described in the module "At the Spottle Parlor" in
DUNGEON #12).  The game involves a special spottle toad and some dice covered
with powdered fly particles.  It has that goofy/fun Mystara feel to it :) --part1_16.45a7f6a.273357cd_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:39:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:29:05 Evil Genius wrote: >>> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same > time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. << > >ROTFL >Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight. Instead of having Zendrolion uniquely responsible for his crime (making it more of an individual thing done by him alone), we take the Hero of the Liberation and make him responsible for it as well, with *BOTH* then subsiquently involved in reigning as evil despots, then on top of that we make them both undead guys. . .and I'm accused of whitewashing Thyatian history and making it too nice. > (snip rest) Since we're on this subject now, I'll voice a few concerns I had with your article when I first read it... You'll remember that I praised this work, and I still do because it's a huge project, and it's great that you're willing to go through with it. I also don't mind that you add to history - it just enriches Mystara, I think. Changing canon, however, is always associated with problems it seems... This particular case on one such for me. Now, I wouldn't say that this makes Zendrolion much 'better', but it does corrupt Lucinius, which IMHO makes Thyatis look better. Why? Well, there are a few things to consider here... Lucinius was trained as an Alphatian wizard! If he's part of this 'conspiracy' then assassinating him becomes much more justified. This is not what happened in your version, but it does remove that ghastly part of Thyatian history, making it look better... The reason why I say this is that to me that nasty Thyatian 'treachery' that Andrew mentioned (there's mention of it in DotE's DMSB, p.34) is renowned and legendary exactly because of Zendrolion's treachery... After all, he did found the empire after that! Now that history has been changed, however, that treachery isn't so bad - sure, the people of Mystara may not know that (you made sure they didn't by not changing the perceptions of the population), but it does remove that stain from Thyatis, particularly with Alphas VI (the subsequent redeemer-emperor of Alphatia) plotting just as much and speculating on the Alphatian throne... In a way, this then becomes a way of sort of removing bad aspects from Thyatis. The fact that it later says (the AC 1-10 bit): "In Thyatis, Zendrolion begins his reign. The Thyatians have only one real model for governing an Imperial state, the Alphatian model. Zendrolion rules the Empire as a tyrant" only seems to support this, and IMHO it's sad to just blame Alphatia for all the bad things in Thyatis! Sadly, this is also how I often see things developing in these discussions, though - it's not good enough to have Alphatia be a not very nice place for everybody, no, it must be abslutely evil through and through with arrogant and heinous wizards whose only pleasure when not abusing Zzonga is to torment the innocent... I'll make Giulio very happy now and say, yes, Alphatia is not a nice place! It's a tyranny! You're right when you say so. All I can say to that, however, is... So what? What nation of Mystara doesn't fall into that category? Karameikos? Well, Stefan if an absolute ruler - he was not elected, and he has put down rebellions by the native population in bloody incidents! Darokin? "He who has the gold, makes the rules"... not exactly what would qualify as a nice place these days! The Shires? Maybe, but they do have a serious Glantrian wizards-problem, making it a not nice place to live... I don't blame you for adding/changing things - I don't object generally. But in cases like this, I just cannot help but wonder about what the motives are for changing things... Particularly when this, the one (to me) defining aspect of Thyatian history, is what was changed! - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001102151325.007c7170@lby3.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, > checkers, Chinese checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? > Do Mystarans play cards? This is what I came up with in a quick hunt: Assorted games in Mystara: M5, pg 16, has a game which fairly mimics Muelle (or however you spell it) Cards are mentioned in M3, pg 6, but that is an alternate dimension Cockroach Racing (Goblin hobby - B10, pg 26) Rat Fights (Orc and Ogre hobby - O2, pg 24) X3, pg 23 and O1, pg 24 mention gambling, but don't specify gambling on what game. Gambling is prohibited in the Emirates (pg 47 of GAZ2 lists some games allowed in Ylaruam) Cock fights, beetle races, cards, dice - GAZ12, pg 18 Senet - similar to backgammon - and nine pin - HWR2, pg 44, Player's Book Dice and card games - B4, pg 20 Olympic events, boardgame similar to chess, dice games, card games - HWR3, pg 17 Duels,Dicing,Cards,Hard-ball - DOTE, Alphatian book, pp 15-16 Tlachtli/Daraxi - GAZ14, GAZ10, HWR1(rules for the Azcan version are in the DM's book of the HW boxed set) - this is probably the game with the most variations in Mystara Whitlespit (cards) - AC10, pp 42-43 I briefly mention an undetailed board game played by the Jennites (read: ancient Scythians) in my net-HWR for that culture I couldn't find Checkers, Chinese Checkers, Go or Mah-Jongg. I had forgotten about the presnece of a game like Muelle - my memory is so poor. Hope that is of some help, Mischa New Orleans Saint RB George Rogers when asked about the upcoming season: "I want to rush for 1,000 or 1,500 yards, whichever comes first." (Source: Sports Gaming Digest, 11/8/99) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:18:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: GAZ10 supplement In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I got my copy of GAZ10 second-hand, it was missing the section "Thar's Manual of Good Conduct" - is this available free off the 'net? Is it worthwhile to track down? Any important information or just mild humor? - Mischa New Orleans Saint RB George Rogers when asked about the upcoming season: "I want to rush for 1,000 or 1,500 yards, whichever comes first." (Source: Sports Gaming Digest, 11/8/99) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 02:53:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Krakatos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:49:32 Evil Genius wrote: >>> As I've only got the write-up that's in KKoA, I was wondering if there's any additional sources of information about Krakatos out there. << > >There's the write-up of the School & Krakatos in one of the issues of the Dragon, but I forget which one (in the 170s by issue number, IICR). > Actually that was in Dragon no. 207 (p.40-44), and it was a rather extensive article that really added to the history of magic in Karameikos - I really liked it! Dragon should have done more like this, but the only other article I remember was the one in 206 about the Barony of Halag (formerly the Black Eagle Barony) in 1012 AC... If you like the Shires, then you should probably check that article out too, as it has more information on the "Halflings' War" on the Black Eagle. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:06:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:59:23 John Calvin wrote: (snip) >In the examples above, the question I ask myself is "How far was Zendrolium willing to go >in order to gain power?" > Exactly. Maybe Lucinius wasn't his friend, but in that case, Zendrolion is even worse because he's mislead and manipulated him for so long while hiding his own agenda all along... IMHO anyway. >In one example he is willing to murder several heads of state in order to gain their >lands. > >In another example he is willing to murder several heads of state in order to gain their >lands...PLUS murder someone who is supposedly his friend (just because he doesn't want to >share). In this case it's not so much a matter of numbers (how many did he kill?), but >rather who did he kill, and for what reason? > >Maybe I'm crazy, but it just seems like when Zendrolium kills a friend (if Zendrolium >truely had any to begin with) he becomes so much more evil (or perhaps that should be >Chaotic Evil). > (snip rest) I agree. There are varying degrees of evil. I hate alignment discussions, but there are some examples of really nasty Mystarans, such as Bargle or von Hendriks, or, to mention a few Alphatians, Zandor or Xanthus (or Barimoor for that matter). If we're to give more general examples of how these different forms of evil manifest themselves, I suggest looking at Star Wars - Darth Maul may be nasty because he kills people when it suits him, but he's a pale imitation of Vader IMHO, because Vader (and I know 'Evil Genius' agrees with me because we happened to discuss this a while back) goes around and strangles his *own* captains and admirals!!! Now *there's* nasty and evil for you! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa..." (Vader to the corpse of Needa, who just choked to death because Vader decided to use his Sith powers to inspire more 'discipline'!!!) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:27:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:29:32 Caroletti wrote: (snip) >3) Being an illuminist ( a wizard a la Stalker, who wants to change the >system >remaining inside of it- and this is how the Stalker begun to play and >love >Alphatia, am I right?) > More or less, yes. We'd had few Alphatians at the time in our campaign, and I wanted to play a wizard from a very wizardly nation, but didn't like Glantri which I found too oppressive (yes, more so than Alphatia... and that's my conclusion from reading Gaz 3 and DotE!! Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I saw it, and still do!) My real problem is that I often find myself (here on the MML) face to face with the suggestion that, "Well, that's fine, but your character would be almost unique because Alphatian wizards aren't like that!"... I never saw it that way myself, though, granted, such wizards would be a minority in Alphatia - even a distinct minority. I don't see them as being quite *that* unique, however. But you're right - this was the basis for a good number of adventures, and it was fun to have the character go through his 'arrogant Alphatian aristocrat phase' as he 'learned' that other classes were not automatically inferior. He was even involved with helping the Glantrians accused of killing Torenal escape (because he was already on good terms with Terari and Galatia), though when these subsequently 'burned down Aasla' he did seriously regret his involvement... I loved it, though, and continued to use the character as an NPC when I later took over the campaign as DM :) >Now, I will not go as far as saying that Alphatia is like Orwell's 1984, >but I >think that this discussion would end immediately if the Alphatiaphiles >said: >"Well, Alphatia is quite tyrannical in DotE, but we don't consider that >product >relevant anymore because of the newer material in PWA II portray things >differently." > >If someone said this, how could we reply? > Well, I'll say it if it makes you happy: Alphatia is a tyranny! So what? It's an empire, so it's pretty clear to me that this is the case! As I said in another post, I don't see that this makes it much different from other Mystaran nations, though... >However, the debate goes on because several Alphatiaphiles continue to >say that Alphatia is not portrayed as tyrannical in DotE. And that is >all the >problem, IMHO. > (snip rest) In DotE it is. I think James and you are right when you say that post-WOTI material is not consistent, or at least OOC compared to DotE, though I don't think it's quite fair to blame it solely on Dupuis - Allston started the trouble himself in PWA1 I think... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:55:09 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-02 6:37:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, checkers, > Chinese checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? Do Mystarans > play cards? By analogy with medieval Europe, we can safely assume that the d'Ambrevilles introduced chess and playing cards to Mystara. Spider and Spottle are native games that have already been mentioned. Lower class Alphatians are specifically mentioned in DotE as playing dice and card games (usually for money, apparently). Both they and the Thyatians are fond of betting on local sporting events. According to AC11, some Glantrians enjoy bowling. Speculation: I could easily picture some Glantrian making a board game based on the Graduation Exercise adventure in Gaz 3, or an Ierendian or Minrothaddan making an actual Orcwars! game. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mystara wrote: > On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:29:05 Evil Genius wrote:>>> Your revised history does make Lucinius worse...but at the same > time it makes Zendrolium just a tad bit (and only sooo slightly) seem better. Yes Lucinius becomes an "evil schemer", but Zendrolium no longer kills his best friend. >ROTFL >Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight. Instead of having Zendrolion uniquely responsible for his crime (making it more of an individual thing done by him alone), we take the Hero of the Liberation and make him responsible for it as well, with *BOTH* then subsiquently involved in reigning as evil despots, then on top of that we make them both undead guys. . .and I'm accused of whitewashing Thyatian history and making it too nice. >> Changing canon, however, is always associated with problems it seems... This particular case on one such for me. << Ok. Well, I've already said I'm going to switch it back. I could say that now you have a small taste of it from the other end, but I'm puzzled by your reasoning. >> Now, I wouldn't say that this makes Zendrolion much 'better', but it does corrupt Lucinius, which IMHO makes Thyatis look better. << How does having Lucinius (who is a *Thyatian* remember) be corrupt and evil as well make Thyatis look better? It's always sort of puzzled me that one guy, one individual, is seen somehow to be the font of all treachery; especially if counterposed with a more heroic guy (Zendrolion? He's a horrible treacherous guy. Lucinius? He's the Thyatian hero who led the uprising and gained freedom for Thyatis and several other areas - and who is a victim of Zendrolion's treachery. Which one of the two has his image stamped on Thyatian gold? It's called the Lucin, bearing the image of King Lucinius.) How does revealing Thyatis's greatest hero as a treacherous conspirator along with Zendrolion make the Thyatians look better? >> Lucinius was trained as an Alphatian wizard! << He was trained *by* an Alphatian wizard. But that's beside the point; I don't understand the sort of point you're making here. >> If he's part of this 'conspiracy' then assassinating him becomes much more justified. This is not what happened in your version, but it does remove that ghastly part of Thyatian history, making it look better...<< Ahh, but I think you're misunderstanding something; he wasn't assassinated, he was "assassinated", he's not a part of a pro-Alphatian conspiracy (Boggle. I don't know if that's the conclusion you reached, but it just simply isn't the case); he's part of Zendrolion's conspiracy to kill the other two. What was a trilogy of "equal-oportunity assassinations" by Zendrolion, personally, to sieze power himself (personally), becomes a sort of Thyatian conspiracy to bump off the other two (non-Thyatian) Kings. It transforms the criminal act of one power-seeking man to a conspiracy involving Thyatis's greatest hero and "liberator". I still don't understand how that makes the Thyatians look better. >> The reason why I say this is that to me that nasty Thyatian 'treachery' that Andrew mentioned (there's mention of it in DotE's DMSB, p.34) is renowned and legendary exactly because of Zendrolion's treachery... After all, he did found the empire after that! << Because of one man's treachery (official version); in this "new" alternative, it's the treachery of two Thyatians, including the leader and organizer of the struggle for freedom - a guy who is viewed as a hero becomes a conspirator in the crime that founds the empire. The acts he did against the Alphatians during the struggle itself might be excusable or at least mitigating (PC heroes do that kind of stuff all the time, and are heroes) - but conspiring with your (Thyatian) buddy to kill your allies once you no longer have use for them, siezing their lands and making them part of your Empire - that can't be seen as other than what it is (oh, the history gives their excuse for why they did it, but no intelligent person would take that excuse seriously. There were many alternatives to murdering their allies and siezing power.) >> it does remove that stain from Thyatis, << I can't see how it does that. How does it do that? >> particularly with Alphas VI (the subsequent redeemer-emperor of Alphatia) plotting just as much and speculating on the Alphatian throne...<< Plotting, yes. But of the three, which is most sympathetic? Of the three, Alphas VI is easily the most sympathetic - indeed, he becomes in many ways what Lucinius *was* in the old version; he isn't just some guy who gets the throne when Kerothar IV is deposed - he see's what's wrong with Alphatia, he plans to fix it, he has some sympathy for the local Thyatians, but would prefer, ultimately, to keep them part of Alphatia (once he has instituted his changes), but he is perceptive enough to know that the Alphatian's slide towards ruin (which has been happening for about five centuries and is getting worse and worse) will only be reversed if they are shocked out of it. He plans for that, he's an active participant (instead of just some guy who gains the throne as a result of other, non-Alphatian people's actions which upset things back in the Alphatian court) - indeed, from his point of view he's the man behind it all; an actor rather than a passive receptical. He miscalculates in one way (because the rot in Alphatia's heartland is worse ! ! than even he imagined, and the desire for freedom & strength of the "rebels" that become the Thyatian Empire is something he underestimates; so they're not brought into the fold). But in other respects he isn't just some guy who lucks into the throne and then happens to put the Alphatian Empire on the path to revival, he is a man who plans for it, achieves the goal of becoming Emperor (and, unless you think Kerothar IV was a good and decent Emperor who didn't deserve what happened to him, this sort of plotting can hardly be seen as evil in and of itself), then impliments his plan and does put the Alphatian Empire on the path to revival, though fitfully (again, because even he isn't omnicient and couldn't have predicted everything that happens). He's a partipant with character and motives of his own in this version. What was he in the "canon" version? Alphas VI isn't an aspect of the history I plan on changing. He becomes one of three master political schemers, and inarguably in my original version, the best of the three. Now, since I'll be switching the Assassination thing back to the original "canon" plot, he's going to partially lose that status, or at least share it with Lucinius. Now, Alphas VI, even in the "canon" version, instituted some harsh measures to turn things around. I hope you don't imagine him to have been some totally pure character even in that version (I mean, think about it - whatever else, he does manage to be the one who becomes Emperor; and the group that selects him, the Grand Council of Wizards, especially at that time when it was in a somewhat degenerated state, is a group of a thousand twisted schemers - I tend to doubt that the man who would emerge from that group, be selected by it, would be a candidate chosen on a "pure" basis. Most likely it would be someone who would be able to manipulate the vote of the Council members, scheme, cajole, even blackmail them - in our version, his active participation is not so oily; it's scheming, but with a positive purpose). >> "In Thyatis, Zendrolion begins his reign. The Thyatians have only one real model for governing an Imperial state, the Alphatian model. Zendrolion rules the Empire as a tyrant" << Well, that's just simply true; he reigns on the Alphatian model. It isn't until Valentia comes along that the Thyatians develop an Imperial Model of their own. You don't have to like it, but that's just factually the case. If you think the Kerothar Emperors ruled better or more benignly, then I think you're missing a lot. And I didn't institute a "change" to achieve this part at all. It's just simply the case. >> it's not good enough to have Alphatia be a not very nice place for everybody, no, it must be abslutely evil through and through with arrogant and heinous wizards whose only pleasure when not abusing Zzonga is to torment the innocent...<< Now you're just over reacting. >> But in cases like this, I just cannot help but wonder about what the motives are for changing things... Particularly when this, the one (to me) defining aspect of Thyatian history, is what was changed! << Now if I get your point correctly, I definately think you're confused. If you've concluded that we said "Hey! Lucinius was trained by the Alphatians, so he must be evil!" you're just absolutely mistaken. Lucinius isn't some pro-Alphatian figure, remember; he's the most successful example of an OPPONENT to the Alphatian Empire. Lucinius could accurately be said to HATE the Alphatian Empire (he leads an uprising against it!) I simply can't see how making him wicked reflects well on Thyatis and badly on Alphatia in any way. Quite the reverse, actually (I missed it at the time, but during these discussions, I can easily see how a Alphatiaphile could take my "new" version of the revolt against Alphatia and use it to say "see, the revolt was led by evil men, both Lucinius and Zendrolion were corrupt and nasty, both of them, the revolt against Alphatia was thus evil from its inception, and that helps vindicate a vision of Alphatia being good, because they weren't rebelled against by ! ! Luke Skywalker and Han Solo leading a noble uprising, they were rebelled against by *two* of the most evil guys Mystara has ever seen!) I certainly can't see how having Lucinius be a nasty fellow reflects well on Thyatis or Thyatians (again, in case you've forgotten: Lucinius was a Thyatian, not an Alphatian. Now, *Retebius*, he was an Alphatian cleric from the Isle of Dawn who joined in the rebellion. Now, *he* could be used to reflect badly on Alphatia and well on Thyatis - after all, if Alphatian Clerics are joining in a rebellion against the Alphatian Empire, how sweet and lovable must the place be? But Lucinius? He's a Thyatian, not an Alphatian; him being a hero reflects well on Thyatians, not Alphatians. Him being a villian or evil reflects badly on Thyatians, not Alphatians). Caroletti wondered today if I was being paranoid about something, but in this case I have to ask if perhaps you're being paranoid, and reading into things other than what is there - because you *expect* anything I do to reflect badly on Alphatia and well on Thyatis, that's what you see even when the reverse is the case. In "my" version, Alphas VI is the most heroic of the three, if any could be called heroic. Lucinius and Zendrolion, the two Thyatians, plot together to kill their allies and sieze power. Alphas VI plots to revive the vitality of his people and nation. You then conclude, it seems, that the whole thing is a conspiracy on my part to make the Thyatians come out as more heroic and the Alphatians as less so. I can only repeat that I think this is a strange conclusion when my version sullies the heroic nature of Lucinius, the *Thyatian* leader of the revolt against (in opposition to) Alphatia, and makes him a (Thyatian) twisted schemer and participant in the killing of his allies. But, anyhow, since that aspect of the history (Lucinius participating in the assassinations rather than being a victim of them) has proven so controvercial, it will be changed, and he'll go back to being what he was in the "canon" version. Probably tommorrow, if I have the time to update the pages. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:33:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-02 4:30:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, anpro@ACCESOCERO.ES writes: > The Alphatians were not the first "aliens" to arrive into Mystara. Maybe the > name of the planet goes back to the Blackmoor era and it was adopted by > Mystara-native primitive Blackmoorians after their contacts with aliens, > then kept. Of course, the original word will have suffered lotsa evolution > in linguistic terms... I would say that "Mystara" is the common Thyatian > now. A world does not need a name until those who wish to name it are famliar with other worlds. Thus, the "World of Two Moons" cannot get its name until somebody from that world becomes acquainted with worlds that have only one moon, and the "Forgotten Realms" cannot get their name until a native of Toril makes contact with a world that has indeed forgotten about Toril. "Mystara" has a Greco-Latin sound to it, which limits the cultures who could have given the world that name to the small handful whose languages are represented by Greek, Latin, or any of various Romance languages. Furthermore, if that term ever comes into common use on Mystara, we have reason to believe that it did not so so prior to 1000 AC. Thus, we can safely ignore the ancient Blackmoorians as the origin of the name "Mystara". The Alphatians would be a possible origin except that their original language is clearly non-Greco-Latin. I therefore suggest that "Mystara" is the Thyatian translation of whatever name the Alphatians came up with for their new world. That term did not come into common use until 1001 AC or so, when a temporary "detente" between Alphatia and Thyatis made Thyatians familiar with the Alphatian name for their world and led the Thyatians to translate that word into their own language as "Mystara". I would guess that this new name would catch on with most "Known World" nations but quickly fall out of fashion in Thyatis and Alphatia in the post-WotI era as a result of the mutual conflicts that would make both sides reluctant to use any name that partially owed its origin to the other side. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:00:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >"Mystara" has a Greco-Latin sound to it, which limits the cultures who >could have given the world that name to the small handful whose languages >are represented by Greek, Latin, or any of various Romance languages. Why do you say this? I'm certainly no linguist and I'm not arguing the point, I'm just curious as to why you see it as Greco-Latin. It sounds to me more like Alphatian or elven than anything else "Mystaran," although since those are clearly invented languages, I'm not really sure why. >Furthermore, if that term ever comes into common use on Mystara, we >have reason to believe that it did not so so prior to 1000 AC. Personally I would argue that "Mystara" is not a term in common use, but rather a scholarly term (in much the way that most Americans, at least, would never refer to the Sun as "Sol" unless they did so for some scientific purpose) and/or the name used by the Immortals to easily communicate just what they mean. BTW--are we ever given any indication of what language is primarily used in Pandius? But honestly, I tend to think that most cultures would have their own names for "the world," and the vast majority of people would have no concept of what a "planet" is (beyond the wandering stars that would be observed from the Outer World much as they were millennia ago on earth), much less that theirs is round. As for the 1001 date, I assume that you use that because the term "Mystara" never appeared in the Gazetteers? Was Champions of Mystara the first appearance of the term? If so, then it would imply that at least a few Alphatians were using the term for a while. >I would guess that this new name would catch on with most "Known >World" nations but quickly fall out of fashion in Thyatis and Alphatia >in the post-WotI era as a result of the mutual conflicts that would >make both sides reluctant to use any name that partially owed its >origin to the other side. Is the name actually used by anyone in any products other than immortals or the Almanacs? If not, then I'd argue that the consistent use of the name in the PWAs, JA, and MAs (where it's even part of the name) would indicate that these pro-Karameikan (I think most of us, at least, can agree that the background story that has been created for these Almanacs lends itself to a pro-Karameikan editorial policy) publishers (Prospero, Joshuan, and [I can't think of the new owner--sorry]) may have been subtly manipulating public opinion/propagandizing that "We're all Mystarans" or "Mystara's really just one big family," and the best imaginable leaders for this unified world are the new Alphatian-Karameikan alliance. Something along the lines of defending Karameikos' manifest destiny. This last paragraph might not have made sense--I need to sleep--I apologize if that is the case. Also, in an attempt to head off unwanted involvement in various debates, let me also please say that I certainly don't want to come across as attacking anyone's ideas or anysuch. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:29:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There's the gambling room in module B4, and the cover illustration, IIRC, show something like color gaming tokens and a wheel; plus we have the Wheel of Fortune magic item, which probably is a magic version inspired by a mundane item... so there are casino wheels in Mystara! Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't see any Greco-Latin sound to the name Mystara; it ends in -a and has a -y- inside; that pattern can be found in a few hundreds of RW languages. Plus, on the topic of consciousness or awareness, that supports the theory of an alien origin: most Mystarans would refer to their land as "the land", or "the earth" (with no capital), especially cuz most people won't have consciousness of being in a planet!!!!! On the other hand, an alien group which does know of other planets, would use a name, probably a conventional one, to refer to the newfound body... When the Spanish realized that America was a new continent, they took a conventional name, just out of the name of a geographer, Americo Vespuccio. And Americans now use it, no matter how alien, conventional its origin was!! And yes, I agree with it being a scholary term; the common Mystaran won't have the chance of speaking or thinking of the world as a whole, given the difficulties of travel, communication and information, which, even with magic, are close to RW Renaissance in the best of cases. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:34:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-03 3:05:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, pds3@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: > >"Mystara" has a Greco-Latin sound to it, which limits the cultures who > >could have given the world that name to the small handful whose languages > >are represented by Greek, Latin, or any of various Romance languages. > > Why do you say this? I'm certainly no linguist and I'm not arguing the > point, I'm just curious as to why you see it as Greco-Latin. It sounds to > me more like Alphatian or elven than anything else "Mystaran," although > since those are clearly invented languages, I'm not really sure why. Assuming some sort of connection between "Mystara" and the word "mystery", the connection is obvious. The word "Mystara" is not associated with that game world prior to the AD&D 2E conversion, and even then I am not aware of any in-character references that use that name. I would limit its prevalence to scholarly types of Thyatian origin who somehow become aware of the existence of other worlds besides Mystara. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:14:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'll make Giulio very happy now and say, yes, Alphatia is not a nice place! It's a tyranny! You're right when you say so. All I can say to that, however, is... So what? What nation of Mystara doesn't fall into that category? Rockhome and Bellayne, for example. As for the Shires, having a Glantrian wizards-problem does not qualify a country as "tiranny" (and is always better than having an Alphatian wizards problem ;P) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:42:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I don't see any Greco-Latin sound to the name Mystara; it ends in -a and has > a -y- inside; that pattern can be found in a few hundreds of RW languages. Still, it is rather easy to find a pseudo-ethimology starting from Greek words like mystes/mysterion. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alignment stuff (was Thyatian History Screed) In-Reply-To: <20001102195923.23355.qmail@web1203.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:59 AM 11/2/00 -0800, you wrote: > >>From a gaming standpoint I like the latter. Am I way off base here, or am I the >only one who sees a difference in these two acts? You are not alone. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 02:21:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Hutaakan Valley Comments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:42 PM 10/30/00 -0500, you wrote: > >The capital city, set with a population of 20,000, seemed rather large, since >that's what the HW DM's Sourcebook gives as the population of all the Hutaaka >("mostly in and about one small town" I know, but this puts it all *in* that >town). I feel the same way, actually, but the idea was to not mess overmuch with canon sources. Note that "canon" sources seem unsure of whether it is a town (the quote you mention) or a city (such as it is referred to on page 47 of the DMs guide in several places). Thus the decision was made to leave them all there. The same page refers to there being "(M)ore such buildings... built up on the valley walls" and doesn't seem to distinguish that on the map, Xyqata is on the peninsula, and not within the valley proper. If you're going to expand on the population and their holdings, I'd definitely scatter a couple more villages on the peninsula itself, and probably a few along the northern coast and along the valley wall up that way. >Ambassadors? Judging by what the HW DM's Sourcebook says, it doesn't seem like the >Hutaakans get many visitors. Nithian priests of Pflarr, perhaps. I'd definitely say that the Hutaakans would have some sort of accomodations in case of such- they aren't (from my reading in the DMs book) completely unaware of the existence of their neighbors, and the haughty Hutaakans would IMO try to minimize any contact with "uncivilized" outsiders as much as possible. Thus the embassy, just in case. >The Hutaakans teaching military arts to Lupins was funny. 8-) I think the view was more that they were teaching organization, rather than actual martial training. The lupins of the valley are loosely organized at best. >Justice: I was wondering what their laws were, though. What constitues a criminal >deed? Any odd/unusual laws? Dunno. Mischa might have some ideas here. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:39:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: GAZ10 supplement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mischa E Gelman wrote: > When I got my copy of GAZ10 second-hand, it was missing the section > "Thar's Manual of Good Conduct" - is this available free off the 'net? = Is > it worthwhile to track down? Any important information or just mild = humor? It won't be available until the whole of GAZ10 is. Though it is quite = funny/silly, it mainly contains interesting information, such as = equipment, strategies, recruitment tests (ok, those are silly), = sanitation, pay, drills, and orcish orders. You could probably talk me = into describing some of these in greater detail if you wrote me = personally... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:56:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <20001102135549.G487@mcs.kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Jeremy Morris wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm sure that this has probably been discussed on the mailing list before, but > I found myself wondering the other day about the origin of the name > "Mystara" for our favorite gameworld. Not the reason TSR named it that > (although I've wondered about that too), but why the inhabitants of the > world choose to call it Mystara. Bruce Heard made up the name Mystara; meaning Mystery Star. Anyway, think your theory about the Alphatians makes sense. Most people on Mystara probably just call it "the world". H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <6a.8161664.2733d2a2@aol.com>; from Kaviyd@AOL.COM on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:34:42AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David Knott wrote on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:34:42AM EST > In a message dated 2000-11-03 3:05:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, > pds3@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: > > > >"Mystara" has a Greco-Latin sound to it, which limits the cultures who > > >could have given the world that name to the small handful whose languages > > >are represented by Greek, Latin, or any of various Romance languages. > > > > Why do you say this? I'm certainly no linguist and I'm not arguing the > > point, I'm just curious as to why you see it as Greco-Latin. It sounds to > > me more like Alphatian or elven than anything else "Mystaran," although > > since those are clearly invented languages, I'm not really sure why. > > Assuming some sort of connection between "Mystara" and the word > "mystery", the connection is obvious. The word "Mystara" is not > associated with that game world prior to the AD&D 2E conversion, > and even then I am not aware of any in-character references that > use that name. I would limit its prevalence to scholarly types of > Thyatian origin who somehow become aware of the existence of > other worlds besides Mystara. I thought that Haldemaar referred to the world as Mystara in the first "Voyage of the Princess Ark" article in Dragon. The Princess Ark series was my first exposure to the name "Mystara" at least. Also, the "Champions of Mystara" boxed set was pre-conversion to 2e. (My memory of Haldemaar's usage of the word is part of why I thought it was Alphatian in origin. If I'm misremembering this, please let me know). Thanks, Jeremy -- Jeremy Morris (morris@mcs.kent.edu) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ...and in the final days of Blackmoor, it is believed that a brief period of perhaps forty years included the play, by some younger members of Blackmoorian and Thonian society, of a new concept in games which was based on the writing of tales. This improvisational tale-telling game became known by the process in which players assumed the roles of specific fictional characters from the more primitive days of Thonia and Blackmoor. Role-playing was thusly sustained through the perpetuation of one game, known in the long form as "Dungeons Of Blackmoor & Dragons Of Afridhi," but in the short form simply as "Dungeons & Dragons." It is believed that a decline in the quality of published works led the overwhelming majority of players of this unique game to stop purchasing products from the Thonian Strategic Realm, or TSR. When TSR was bought by the Wizards Operational Tactics Collaborative, hope in the product was re-kindled, and it remains unknown by all but the most erudite Glantrian sages whether "Wizards" in the short form were about to resurrect the failing product. Kevin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:59:08 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brant Casavant Subject: Serraine? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, may I ask what the deal is with Serraine? I know it's a gnomish flying city, but apparently its been taken over by Bargle the Infamous or something? Would someone be so kind as to elaborate upon this? - Brant ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:38:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Serraine? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > So, may I ask what the deal is with Serraine? I know it's a gnomish flying > city, but apparently its been taken over by Bargle the Infamous or something? Serraine is a flying city, populated by gnomes, pegataurs, tabi, and nagpa (and I'm probably forgetting some other race). The Nagpa (a subversive group of them, at least, named the Grey Front, IIRC) have always been trying to take control of the city, and they recently succeeded, after hiring Bargle the Infamous as a mercenary. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:09:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <6a.8161664.2733d2a2@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:34 11/3/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >Assuming some sort of connection between "Mystara" and the word >"mystery", the connection is obvious. The word "Mystara" is not >associated with that game world prior to the AD&D 2E conversion, Actually, it first appears in "Dragon" when Bruce Heard is answering letters in a VotPA article, about the time the Hollow World boxed set came out. I don't know if it actually appears in any products at that point, though. >and even then I am not aware of any in-character references that >use that name. I think Joshuan refers to it as "Mystara" in JA. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:50:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Alphatia & Thyatis: an endless debate (looong) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >3) Being an illuminist ( a wizard a la Stalker, who wants to change the > >system > >remaining inside of it- and this is how the Stalker begun to play and > >love > >Alphatia, am I right?) > > > "Well, that's fine, but your character would be almost unique because Alphatian wizards aren't like that!". Well, not unique. There are almost as many wizards discontented about the laws (or their absence) in the Empire, as there are senators who dislike plotting in Thyatis, I think. > > >"Well, Alphatia is quite tyrannical in DotE, but we don't consider that > >product > >relevant anymore because of the newer material in PWA II portray things > >differently." > > > >If someone said this, how could we reply? > > > > Well, I'll say it if it makes you happy: Alphatia is a tyranny! Ok. What could I reply, apart from the fact that we reached a conclusion that we all agree with? Yahoo! (no, I am not paid by them) > > > In DotE it is. I think James and you are right when you say that post-WOTI material is not consistent, or at least OOC compared to DotE, though I don't think it's quite fair to blame it solely on Dupuis - Allston started the trouble himself in PWA1 I think... Well, I agree...it's just that Dupuisian Heresy sounds so...I don't know, isn't it great to have something to cast the blame onto? 8-) (Thyatian proverb). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Hutaakan Valley Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Well, I thought it was good, but I'm still digesting it. Most folks > don't comment unless they're in rabid disagreement. I wasn't expecting much feedback - I know I tend not to comment on large-scale projevts, so I don't expect any one else too. The previous net-HWRs each got a couple comments at most. > The capital city, set with a population of 20,000, seemed rather large, > since that's what the HW DM's Sourcebook gives as the population of all > the Hutaaka ("mostly in and about one small town" I know, but this puts > it all *in* that town). I take any round number to be a rounded number - maybe the Hutaakan population is 20,734 and the population of the capital is 19,612 - each is easily described as 20,000. A rough glance places about 2,000 outside the capital - so a 21,000/19,000 actuality is feasible IMO. Of course, this can also be attributed to oversight by the editor (namely me). > Ambassadors? Judging by what the HW DM's Sourcebook says, it doesn't > seem like the Hutaakans get many visitors. In the foreign relations section, it is noted that relations only exist on any significant scale with Nithia. Given the material in the HW boxed set, I think there should be some bonds/contact. > The Hutaakans teaching military arts to Lupins was funny. 8-) I think the whole cultural arrogance can be played for laughs, in addition to creating dramatic tension with outsiders. > Justice: I was wondering what their laws were, though. What constitues a > criminal deed? Any odd/unusual laws? Details, details, details! I'd imagine that their laws are similar to those of most countries (don't steal, don't kill, don't bribe, don't cheat, don't commit adultery) with some religious elements thrown in (don't take the name of Pflarr in vain, major penalties for desacrating an altar) and some bureaucratic penalties (if you don't get paperwork piece C-12-e4/l in within the 2-week guideline, there is a small fine). I think the latter two could easily allow for unusual laws which PCs are prone to violate, getting them into hot water, but no great examples leap to mind off-hand. We really should have gone into greater depth here, though - I am definitely to blame. > Health Care: reference to modern, IRL situations seemed oddly incongrous. Sorry, I'm a sucker for anachronism! I loved AC?11? (the gnomish devices book) for instance. If I had to do it over, I wouldn't remove these, even if most folks don't like them. I think it helps to have standards which people can relate to, making the culture easier to understand. Thanks for the input, Mischa New Orleans Saint RB George Rogers when asked about the upcoming season: "I want to rush for 1,000 or 1,500 yards, whichever comes first." (Source: Sports Gaming Digest, 11/8/99) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:03:23 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: KSoM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau wrote: > > Has anyone developed the Karamekean School of Magecraft or have any ideas > about how to make up a distinctly Karamekean (with a dash of Alphatian, of > course) school of magic? Someone did develop something on that line, a couple years ago. I still have some html docs saved, but the link is no more working. Uhm, the authors were Tim Haney and Morten Greis Petersen, but I don't know whether any of them is still around on the list. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Luc & Zen The Lucinius & Zendrolion assassination thing has been changed back to the "canon" version. For those of us who still want them around as undead guys (campaign hooks being fun, IMO), that's still in there. For those who don't like that aspect, it's easily ignorable. Anyhow, the latest version can be found starting near the bottom of the page at: http://www.geocities.com/augustium/Thyatis/History/PreImp2.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:22:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin Powers wrote: > > > > > Kevin > > Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Iulius Sergius Scaevola ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:30:01 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > They're not colonists of Nithians, but the Event doesn't claim them to be. As for the rest, this is a case where if you had clicked the "footnote" and then checked the reference (p.14-15 of the HW DM's Sourcebook), that would have cleared things up for you. I'll quote the relivant section: > > "The Nithians, made curious about the southern continent by the Traldar flight in that direction, transport many Northern Reaches slaves to Harbortown and thence to the southern continent, to colonize there. This is the southern limit of Nithian expansion, and isn't very successful. The Northern Reaches slaves soon rebel and slay their Nithian overlords. These tribes carve out their own territory in the southern continent, and are the forefathers of the Thyatian, Kerendan, and Hattian tribes who later found the Empire of Thyatis." > > In the future, it will save a lot of time if people make use of the "footnotes" to verify things before saying they're wrong. If, once you check, you still find there to be a discrepancy, then by all means bring it up. Sorry :) Couldn't get those footnotes to work. Its probably my ISP because I've been aving alot of trouble with it lately :) > >> 3. Thassalanian wars??? I can't find any mention of them, or the > Kerendan/Thyatian conflict that is mentioned. << > > So? > Here we come to a point that NEEDS to be made: just because the "canon" histories don't mention something doesn't mean that nothing happened. The "canon" histories in the various Gazeteers give a feel for the country(s) being described and highlight (briefly) many of the more significant episodes. But to consider them exaustive, covering every noitable event that took place, would be absurd; one would then conclude that in most areas of the Known World absolutely nothing took place for long centuries. . .but then all the sudden in AC 1004 with the start of WotI things really get hopping, with events all over the place. > The products aren't a history text, they're gaming materiels. Few gaming materiels provide as exaustive a history of the region covered as was provided in "Empires of the Shining Sea", to pick an example of one where an extensive backround history was provided, but that shouldn't be taken as meaning nothing happened that wasn't mentioned. Agreed. However, I would have thought a war that lasted several years would have been mentioned. Its not the war itself I find strange, its the opponents and their extent of their initial victory. If you wished to have a war, could it have not have been against a wannabe nithianesque ruler??? You could still have conflict, and the taking and re-taking of territories etc, without actually having any of the 3 tribes coming into direct conflict. Direct conflict generally builds resentment against the other party(s) involved. This is why the Thyatians and Alphatians are always at conflict (apart from the two bigget kids on the block syndrome). > >> There's even mention of the Kerendans sacking Thyatis City. This I find amazing! << > > Actually, nope there isn't. I think you're confusing their plundering of the lands of the Thyatians (primarily what will one day become the Duchy of Thyatis) with the city itself. Sloppy, vague writing on our part in that instance (actually on my part). The Kerendans besiege Thyatis City during the war, but they never sack it ("sacking" is never mentioned, btw). I'll try and make that episode clearer and less confusing in my next edit/re-write. OK, I stand corrected :) > > But not that it would be so absurd if they did sack Thyatis City, though. The Thyatian tribe is generally taken to be (and thus having always been) the stronger, and certainly in "Imperial" times that's true and we even assume it to be true throughout Thyatian history (during the pre-Imperial era as much as during the Imperial era, our history could accurately be called very "Thyatia-centric", in that it concentrates mainly on developments in the City of Thyatis and among the Thyatians rather than among the Kerendans or Hattians). > > But just because they're generally stronger doesn't mean they're invincible in wars against the other tribes, don't have periods of relative weakness (this Kerendan-Thyatian war was one of those), and can't be defeated. True. However, a defeat (even against a supposedly "inferior" foe), breeds resentment. People have very long memories, and an humiliation such as a major defeat, would stick in their minds for a very long period of time. Thats not even going anywhere near the distortion of the events by peoples memories, which as we all know are "inaccurate" to say the least. I didn't say that the defeat was not possible, what I said was the repercussions of such an action would be terrible and long lasting. Remember, for each strike agains a tribe, the populace of that tribe would would demand a counter-strike, and with each blow peoples resentment would grow. In the end, there would be such a wall of resentment that trying to any type of society wit those three tribes would be nigh on impossible, as they wouldn't trust each other. Look at the Hattians now for instance, they have a rather large chip on their shoulder in as a people in general, and as such are one of the most "unpopular" races in the Thyatian Empire. Now thats what happens when resentment gets a out of hand (ok, I know its being stirred by Thanatos too, but consider too that he would have done something then too if the opportunity had presented itself). > > >> There is one other thing that has not been considered. All three > tribes would have lost alot of warriors in their fight against the Nithians. << > > Even if that were the case (and their's no indication they were depopulated), that wouldn't prevent them from fighting each other. One could consider it analogous to the Persian War in Greece (where the Greeks lost a lot of warriors in their fight against the Greeks, and much of Greece was occupied for a time), but that didn't stop them from fighting subsiquent wars against each other, including the Peloponesian War. > > The Kerendan-Thyatian War takes place about as long after the demise of the Nithians as the period of time between the Persian War and the Peloponesian War. >From the end of the Nithian War when the Kerendans took heavy losses, to the time to the attack on Thyatis is only some 50 years (approx). Whats that, 3 generations? I find it very hard to believe that in a mere 3 generations, the Kerendan people would be of sufficient strength to contemplate such auditious acts. Even then, there seems to have been continuous in-fighting between the tribes, including both Thassalanian wars (ok theses were between Hattias and Thyatis, but the Kerendans had their fair share of trouble too, monster incursions from Traladaran lands, continous strife from Alaysian raiders etc.). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:27:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! >> However, I would have thought a war that lasted several years would have been mentioned. << Well, then you'd be wrong. I don't think game designers generally spend a lot of time developing what happened fifteen centuries ago most of the time, or worrying about exactly what wars did or didn't take place unless they have a more imediate bearing on the "present" of the setting. >> Its not the war itself I find strange, its the opponents and their extent of their initial victory. << Hmmmn. . .I'll have to ponder which history texts to refer you to. I guess the first one I'll recomend is Cary & Scullard's "A History of Rome". >> If you wished to have a war, could it have not have been against a wannabe nithianesque ruler??? << They do enough fighting against the Nithians. There's plenty of that. Why reduce it to a cliche? >> without actually having any of the 3 tribes coming into direct conflict. << Did the tribes of Latium and the rest of the Italian penninsula, which eventually formed the core of the Roman Empire always get along and never come into direct conflict? >> True. However, a defeat (even against a supposedly "inferior" foe), breeds resentment. People have very long memories, and an humiliation such as a major defeat << They win the war. >> From the end of the Nithian War when the Kerendans took heavy losses, << You're over-dramatizing their losses. A rading force sent into Nithia itself was defeated, but that isn't the same thing as all of Kerendas being depopulated. >> I find it very hard to believe that in a mere 3 generations, the Kerendan people would be of sufficient strength to contemplate such auditious acts. << I refer you this time to Thucididies "The Peloponesian War" - from the time of the major war against the Persians to the time of the outbreak of the Peloponesian War was fifty years (and during that fifty year span the Greek city states, including Athens and Sparta, engaged in many conflicts - it wasn't a period of fifty years of complete peace in Greece). These wars (Thassalanian & Kerendan-Thyatian) are staying, precisely because they are realistic and are akin to real life (and, indeed, are validated by real-life history and based in no small part on real life history. If anything, compared to real life they are too short and too infrequent. There should be more and longer such conflicts, to be realistic.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:28:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Regional 3E feats for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Looking at the WotC site today -- specifically at http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Survival.asp#4 -- I was struck by what a good system this is for differentiating characters. For one, I'm inclined to make the prerequisites of my Denial feat that the character has to be a halfling, in the Five Shires, and have the Iron Will and Luck of Heroes feats. That means only sixth level characters could get Denial, which is about right. IMC, I'm making all three of the regional feats listed here available, with Luck of Heroes being available in the Five Shires, Mecentile Background being available in Darokin and the Minrothad Guilds and Thug being available in Alphatia, Glantri and Thyatis. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:56:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phillip Jones wrote: > > Agreed. However, I would have thought a war that lasted several years would > have been mentioned. Its not the war itself I find strange, its the > opponents and their extent of their initial victory. If you wished to have a > war, could it have not have been against a wannabe nithianesque ruler??? You > could still have conflict, and the taking and re-taking of territories etc, > without actually having any of the 3 tribes coming into direct conflict. > Direct conflict generally builds resentment against the other party(s) > involved. This is why the Thyatians and Alphatians are always at conflict > (apart from the two bigget kids on the block syndrome). > You have to remember that until 1945, warfare was the normal state of society, quite often more prevalent than a state of peace. This included people of the same nationality fighting each other (nationality not meaning a whole lot in those days). Europe and elsewhere are rife with such conflicts. This in no way prevented subsequent unification of various places into bigger national states. Wars may breed resentment, yes, but often enough this resentment doesn't mean you hate someone's guts for the next few millenia; you just attack them back and be done with it. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:52:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Re: Poll: What is your favourite nation? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 My vote goes to Alfheim, homeland of the amazing elves (and Shadow Elves). WE, ELVES, WILL PREVAIL ON ANY OTHER RACE.... AH AH AH AH AH AH... AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 01:53:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:59:04 Evil Genius wrote: > >>> Now, I wouldn't say that this makes Zendrolion much 'better', but it does corrupt Lucinius, which IMHO makes Thyatis look better. << > >How does having Lucinius (who is a *Thyatian* remember) be corrupt and evil as well make Thyatis look better? > Because now Zendrolion is, in truth, not quite so bad. Yes, he does some horrible things, but he no longer either kills his best friend for the throne or manipulates Lucinius to kill Alphatians for him until he can take power himself. Also, though the two may be bad people in your version, their 'evil' is somehow justified because they were repelling the Alphatian invaders. In that sense they're heroes, even if they turn out to be bad people - now all the bad things they did were done to non-Thyatians and there is little or no horrible treachery toward each other (Pearl Island and Ochalea kings being foreigners). >It's always sort of puzzled me that one guy, one individual, is seen somehow to be the font of all treachery; especially if counterposed with a more heroic guy (Zendrolion? He's a horrible treacherous guy. Lucinius? He's the Thyatian hero who led the uprising and gained freedom for Thyatis and several other areas - and who is a victim of Zendrolion's treachery. Which one of the two has his image stamped on Thyatian gold? It's called the Lucin, bearing the image of King Lucinius.) How does revealing Thyatis's greatest hero as a treacherous conspirator along with Zendrolion make the Thyatians look better? > The fact that Lucinius is on the coins while Zendrolion is praised as the first emperor has always been a sign of that treacherous trait that exists in Thyatis - pretty much everybody knows it, but it's just accepted! I mean, most people could conclude that Zendrolion's claims of Lucinius' madness is just too convenient, yet these are widely accepted in Thyatis, which says a lot about the empire, I think, as people either live in fear or ignorance. (Not thereby saying that Alphatia is any better though!) >>> Lucinius was trained as an Alphatian wizard! << > >He was trained *by* an Alphatian wizard. But that's beside the point; I don't understand the sort of point you're making here. > In your version he was a very bad person. Thus, killing him makes it more in line with the 'propaganda' version where he goes mad from Alphatian magics, and his asssassination therefore more justified (even if it's not really what happened). To me Thyatis seemed treacherous because their one great caring hero, Lucinius, was brutally murdered by the very people he was trying to free! Now, however, Thyatis looks a little better because their one great hero is not treacherously murdered - he was never that hero in the first place. Thus killing him wasn't really such a mind-blowing bad thing IMHO. >>> If he's part of this 'conspiracy' then assassinating him becomes much more justified. This is not what happened in your version, but it does remove that ghastly part of Thyatian history, making it look better...<< > >Ahh, but I think you're misunderstanding something; he wasn't assassinated, he was "assassinated", he's not a part of a pro-Alphatian conspiracy (Boggle. I don't know if that's the conclusion you reached, but it just simply isn't the case); he's part of Zendrolion's conspiracy to kill the other two. > Yes, I did get that part, and it's not my point. My point is that though Lucinius and Zendrolion are both bad people in your version, they *are* allies now, and they *do* stick together! Lucinius trusts Zendrolion enough to allow him to kill him, and he's right, because Zendrolion does make certain that he's resurrected. So they may be evil, but they're still very loyal to each other, especially Zendrolion who has his friend resurrected when he could have grapped power for himself - he obviously trusts Lucinius enough to believe that Lucinius won't kill *him* off to get the power, and he's right because Lucinius doesn't. The original version was much grimmer! I do think it's a little strange to kill Lucinius in the first place, though - surely a powerful wizard like Lucinius could use illusionary magic to fake his own death if he wanted to! > What was a trilogy of "equal-oportunity assassinations" by Zendrolion, personally, to sieze power himself (personally), becomes a sort of Thyatian conspiracy to bump off the other two (non-Thyatian) Kings. It transforms the criminal act of one power-seeking man to a conspiracy involving Thyatis's greatest hero and "liberator". I still don't understand how that makes the Thyatians look better. > It makes Zendrolion look a lot better because of the loyalty between the two, which is not betrayed. It makes Thyatis look a little better because their great, pure hero is now not slaughtered in the most devious manner simply because he was so good and trusting! >>> The reason why I say this is that to me that nasty Thyatian 'treachery' that Andrew mentioned (there's mention of it in DotE's DMSB, p.34) is renowned and legendary exactly because of Zendrolion's treachery... After all, he did found the empire after that! << > >Because of one man's treachery (official version); in this "new" alternative, it's the treachery of two Thyatians, including the leader and organizer of the struggle for freedom - a guy who is viewed as a hero becomes a conspirator in the crime that founds the empire. The acts he did against the Alphatians during the struggle itself might be excusable or at least mitigating (PC heroes do that kind of stuff all the time, and are heroes) - but conspiring with your (Thyatian) buddy to kill your allies once you no longer have use for them, siezing their lands and making them part of your Empire - that can't be seen as other than what it is (oh, the history gives their excuse for why they did it, but no intelligent person would take that excuse seriously. There were many alternatives to murdering their allies and siezing power.) > As we've discussed off-list, we both like Darth Vader as a villain more than Darth Maul because Vader goes around killing his *own* officers! Zendrolion always seemed like that to me as well (as did the DotE version of Zandor). >>> it does remove that stain from Thyatis, << > >I can't see how it does that. How does it do that? > Because the one good hero is not treacherously assassinated in a power game - he was never that hero in the first place. >>> particularly with Alphas VI (the subsequent redeemer-emperor of Alphatia) plotting just as much and speculating on the Alphatian throne...<< > >Plotting, yes. But of the three, which is most sympathetic? > He's still a pretty awful person, though. >Of the three, Alphas VI is easily the most sympathetic - indeed, he becomes in many ways what Lucinius *was* in the old version; he isn't just some guy who gets the throne when Kerothar IV is deposed - he see's what's wrong with Alphatia, he plans to fix it, he has some sympathy for the local Thyatians, but would prefer, ultimately, to keep them part of Alphatia (once he has instituted his changes), but he is perceptive enough to know that the Alphatian's slide towards ruin (which has been happening for about five centuries and is getting worse and worse) will only be reversed if they are shocked out of it. He plans for that, he's an active participant (instead of just some guy who gains the throne as a result of other, non-Alphatian people's actions which upset things back in the Alphatian court) - indeed, from his point of view he's the man behind it all; an actor rather than a passive receptical. He miscalculates in one way (because the rot in Alphatia's heartland is worse than even he imagined, and the desire for freedom & strength of the "rebels" that become the Thyatian Empire is something he underestimates; so they're not brought into the fold). But in other respects he isn't just some guy who lucks into the throne and then happens to put the Alphatian Empire on the path to revival, he is a man who plans for it, achieves the goal of becoming Emperor (and, unless you think Kerothar IV was a good and decent Emperor who didn't deserve what happened to him, this sort of plotting can hardly be seen as evil in and of itself), then impliments his plan and does put the Alphatian Empire on the path to revival, though fitfully (again, because even he isn't omnicient and couldn't have predicted everything that happens). He's a partipant with character and motives of his own in this version. What was he in the "canon" version? > I don't think it was ever established. There are a number of reasons why I don't like him in your version though. First, if he's really associated that much with Zendrolion and, especially, Lucinius, would the Alphatians have made him emperor? I'd think they'd accuse him of having created the whole mess by 'teaching those barbarians our magic' and with cries like 'surely those barbarians couldn't have done this well on their own - you must have helped them, because nobody is better than an Alphatian wizard!' It's more likely they'd have lynched him, I think. Second, it seems too convenient for me that he was Lucinius' teacher, because it almost seems like there are no other active wizards anywhere in the empire (where they all busy abusing Zzonga?). What are the odds that he'd teach Lucinius, and then the Grand Council would choose him, of all people, as the next emperor? Third, all this scheming doesn't seem quite Alphatian somehow - it's doesn't seem quite 'chaotic' enough to me, and thus a little OOC for Alphatia. >Alphas VI isn't an aspect of the history I plan on changing. He becomes one of three master political schemers, and inarguably in my original version, the best of the three. Now, since I'll be switching the Assassination thing back to the original "canon" plot, he's going to partially lose that status, or at least share it with Lucinius. > Well, by now I'm sure you can guess that I don't like that so much. >Now, Alphas VI, even in the "canon" version, instituted some harsh measures to turn things around. I hope you don't imagine him to have been some totally pure character even in that version > No, I don't. But I don't see him as quite that scheming and plotting, either. Kerothar IV was deposed because he was far too harsh and arrogant, which crumbled the empire from within - I doubt the Alphatians would choose one such man for another. I see Alphas VI as more of a diplomat and a thinker in that he weighed his options and looked at what was possible, then did what served the empire best, no matter how much it hurt some people (probably excluding the aristocracy to some degree as he needed their support to remain on the throne - they still faced some harsher times, though). > (I mean, think about it - whatever else, he does manage to be the one who becomes Emperor; and the group that selects him, the Grand Council of Wizards, especially at that time when it was in a somewhat degenerated state, is a group of a thousand twisted schemers - I tend to doubt that the man who would emerge from that group, be selected by it, would be a candidate chosen on a "pure" basis. Most likely it would be someone who would be able to manipulate the vote of the Council members, scheme, cajole, even blackmail them - in our version, his active participation is not so oily; it's scheming, but with a positive purpose). > I don't really mind that so much - I just don't like his association with Lucinius because it makes all other wizards in Alphatia seem so inactive. If he was really in Thyatis, then I don't think they'd bring him in to be emperor. >>> "In Thyatis, Zendrolion begins his reign. The Thyatians have only one real model for governing an Imperial state, the Alphatian model. Zendrolion rules the Empire as a tyrant" << > >Well, that's just simply true; he reigns on the Alphatian model. > He created a council of wizards that could veto his decisions? He made all spellcasters aristocrats? To me that comment seems to suggest that when something is wrong in Thyatis, then Alphatia is to blame. I'm sorry to be so blunt, because I don't mean to give offense, but that's how I see it. I've tried very hard to not see that comment as a jab against Alphatia, and I've failed! > It isn't until Valentia comes along that the Thyatians develop an Imperial Model of their own. You don't have to like it, but that's just factually the case. > I'm not denying that part. That's true. > If you think the Kerothar Emperors ruled better or more benignly, then I think you're missing a lot. > And I would agree, but I didn't think that - they were harsh, arrogant, and racist, which is why Aasla the wizardess moved away and founded her own city. > And I didn't institute a "change" to achieve this part at all. It's just simply the case. > I just don't like the way that part is worded, because it sounds to me as if Alphatia must be to blame if Thyatis is not a nice place. >>> it's not good enough to have Alphatia be a not very nice place for everybody, no, it must be abslutely evil through and through with arrogant and heinous wizards whose only pleasure when not abusing Zzonga is to torment the innocent...<< > >Now you're just over reacting. > Maybe so. Still, it's the impression I get at times. Since you like Thyatis, that's fine - focus on the parts you like and play on them. As long as you don't violate canon (as the PWAs did), you won't hear me saying that you can't do so... But please respect that I like Alphatia and would rather that people didn't try to give the impression that this is what Alphatia is like. >>> But in cases like this, I just cannot help but wonder about what the motives are for changing things... Particularly when this, the one (to me) defining aspect of Thyatian history, is what was changed! << > >Now if I get your point correctly, I definately think you're confused. If you've concluded that we said "Hey! Lucinius was trained by the Alphatians, so he must be evil!" you're just absolutely mistaken. > I didn't think that, no. >Lucinius isn't some pro-Alphatian figure, remember; he's the most successful example of an OPPONENT to the Alphatian Empire. Lucinius could accurately be said to HATE the Alphatian Empire (he leads an uprising against it!) I simply can't see how making him wicked reflects well on Thyatis and badly on Alphatia in any way. Quite the reverse, actually (I missed it at the time, but during these discussions, I can easily see how a Alphatiaphile could take my "new" version of the revolt against Alphatia and use it to say "see, the revolt was led by evil men, both Lucinius and Zendrolion were corrupt and nasty, both of them, the revolt against Alphatia was thus evil from its inception, and that helps vindicate a vision of Alphatia being good, because they weren't rebelled against by Luke Skywalker and Han Solo leading a noble uprising, they were rebelled against by *two* of the most evil guys Mystara has ever seen!) > Well, Lucinius is one of the few really good people of Mystara... and he's promptly killed off in the most hideous manner! To me Mystara loses some of it's appeal if we remove that. >I certainly can't see how having Lucinius be a nasty fellow reflects well on Thyatis or Thyatians (again, in case you've forgotten: Lucinius was a Thyatian, not an Alphatian. Now, *Retebius*, he was an Alphatian cleric from the Isle of Dawn who joined in the rebellion. Now, *he* could be used to reflect badly on Alphatia and well on Thyatis - after all, if Alphatian Clerics are joining in a rebellion against the Alphatian Empire, how sweet and lovable must the place be? But Lucinius? He's a Thyatian, not an Alphatian; him being a hero reflects well on Thyatians, not Alphatians. Him being a villian or evil reflects badly on Thyatians, not Alphatians). > I think I already answered this one above. >Caroletti wondered today if I was being paranoid about something, but in this case I have to ask if perhaps you're being paranoid, and reading into things other than what is there - because you *expect* anything I do to reflect badly on Alphatia and well on Thyatis, that's what you see even when the reverse is the case. > Well, I do wonder because it seems to me like you're trying to remove Zendrolion's horrifying treachery... >In "my" version, Alphas VI is the most heroic of the three, if any could be called heroic. Lucinius and Zendrolion, the two Thyatians, plot together to kill their allies and sieze power. Alphas VI plots to revive the vitality of his people and nation. You then conclude, it seems, that the whole thing is a conspiracy on my part to make the Thyatians come out as more heroic and the Alphatians as less so. > It's more like I wonder if you're trying to remove the traits of 'treachery' that canon establishes in Thyatis, because IMHO those were always founded by Zendrolion's ghastly actions. > I can only repeat that I think this is a strange conclusion when my version sullies the heroic nature of Lucinius, the *Thyatian* leader of the revolt against (in opposition to) Alphatia, and makes him a (Thyatian) twisted schemer and participant in the killing of his allies. > Well, I may like Alphatia, but that's just part of Mystara. Don't forget that I like Mystara more than Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance. I've seen little betrayal of the sort Zendrolion pulls off anywhere else, and certainly none that victimized a hero so horribly, yet formed the foundation of a lasting empire... That's an aspect of *Mystara* that I like. Not all good things in Mystara are Alphatian IMHO - Alphatia just happens to be the one nation that I overall like more than the rest. >But, anyhow, since that aspect of the history (Lucinius participating in the assassinations rather than being a victim of them) has proven so controvercial, it will be changed, and he'll go back to being what he was in the "canon" version. Probably tommorrow, if I have the time to update the pages. > Ok. As I said before, you're welcome to use your version, and I never commented before for that reason. You did ask for criticism, though, so I offered mine. If you decide to let your version stand, then fine - I'd use the canon version either way... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:04:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:34:42 David Knott wrote: (snip) >Assuming some sort of connection between "Mystara" and the word >"mystery", the connection is obvious. I always thought so too, though there is no real basis for thinking so AFAIK. Does anybody know why TSR chose this name? It seems a little strange given how closely it resembles the name of the goddess of magic in the Forgotten Realms campaign I think (Mystra)... > The word "Mystara" is not >associated with that game world prior to the AD&D 2E conversion, > Well, it was used extensively in WOTI and 'Champions of', well, 'Mystara'... I think it was even used in some of the later VOTPC episodes, and certainly in some of the Known World Grimoire parts in Dragon... >and even then I am not aware of any in-character references that >use that name. Agreed. > I would limit its prevalence to scholarly types of >Thyatian origin who somehow become aware of the existence of >other worlds besides Mystara. > Maybe so. I just don't know... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:08:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:14:18 Agathokles wrote: >> I'll make Giulio very happy now and say, yes, Alphatia is not a nice >place! It's a tyranny! You're right when you say so. All I can say to >that, however, is... So what? What nation of Mystara doesn't fall into >that category? > >Rockhome and Bellayne, for example. > I'm not sure I agree about Rockhome - the dwarves have a *very* strict and disciplined society, though it is just and fair. Can't say about Bellayne, as I'm not overly familiar with the Savage Coast region... >As for the Shires, having a Glantrian wizards-problem does not qualify a >country as "tiranny" (and is always better than having an Alphatian >wizards problem ;P) No, but it still doesn't make for a nice place to live, then. (And to tell you the truth, I personally find the cute and 'awful-good' nature of the Shires so disgusting that it's oppressive to me... So I would almost call it a tyranny after all) :) - The Stalker, not being very serious Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:29:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Regional 3E feats for Mystara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001103132846.007b3ca0@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:28 PM 11/3/00 -0800, you wrote: > Looking at the WotC site today -- specifically at >http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Survival.asp#4 -- I was struck by >what a good system this is for differentiating characters. Definite agreement on this one. My only problem comes with the fact that if we create characters now, and later come up with other feats, we have to change them or pass up on the really good stuff. ;) (Course, that's always been a problem with new materials coming out...) > For one, I'm inclined to make the prerequisites of my Denial feat that the >character has to be a halfling, in the Five Shires, and have the Iron Will >and Luck of Heroes feats. That means only sixth level characters could get >Denial, which is about right. That sounds pretty good. > IMC, I'm making all three of the regional feats listed here available, >with Luck of Heroes being available in the Five Shires, Mecentile >Background being available in Darokin and the Minrothad Guilds and Thug >being available in Alphatia, Glantri and Thyatis. If you're going to start using them now, you might want to look at the changes to some of the Feats that are listed in the latest Dragon magazine (for instance, the benefits to the Thug Feat are reduced somewhat from the ones on the WotC website). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:44:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <20001104014043.0F206815D@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I posted this to the Spelljammer list in hopes someone there might know. I hope people don't mind this crossposting. I'm reading various Mystaran accessories and I'm catching references to space bodies here and there. The obvious ones we all know, the moons and Alphatia old homeworld. Has anyone done a compilation of all the "canon" references? I'm particularly interested in the rest of what might be Mystara'a solar system. Especially since just found that the nation of Emerond (in PWA2) is populated by people from a band of asteroids called the Pyrithian Archipelago beyond the Skyshield. Seemingly, a body in Mystaraspace then? Has any accessory ever claimed to have had a model of the Mystaran solar system, even if it wasn't detailed? How many nations or groups of people are thought to come from another planet? Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:57:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Let the Criticism begin! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:27:20 Evil Genius wrote: >>> However, I would have thought a war that lasted several years would >have been mentioned. << > >Well, then you'd be wrong. I don't think game designers generally spend a lot of time developing what happened fifteen centuries ago most of the time, or worrying about exactly what wars did or didn't take place unless they have a more imediate bearing on the "present" of the setting. > (snip rest) Very true. You need look no further than the Dragonlord Chronicles to see examples of this - suddenly we have a huge dragon invasion from another world on Mystara, involving all our favorite nations in the Known World, and this affects the Immortals' ranks too (worded vaguely because I won't give anything away for those who haven't read it)... This all happened around 490 AC or so and involved all the major countries, yet was never mentioned before... You could dismiss these as fiction, not related to the game, but the Hail the Heroes adventure does establish these events officially in the game. Though I don't like this trilogy, I do like inclusion of another large war! Why? Because it establishes adventure and history on Mystara... I might have preferred a different plot than 'Dragon Space Invaders', but still... This is why I like additions like these - we can build on them and use them in our campaigns. Adventures work much better when founded on wars fought many years ago, and if you have to add those wars yourself, then I say, by all means do so! I've added historic characters to my campaign myself, just to achieve a similar effect ("this sword was used by so-and-so during the war of blah-blah, when he was killed by orcs defending the nation of yaddi-yadda" - much more interesting than "this is a +3 sword!") - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:14:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2000/11/03, 12:56 +0100, H=E5vard wrote: >Bruce Heard made up the name Mystara; meaning Mystery Star. >Anyway, think your theory about the Alphatians makes sense. Most people on >Mystara probably just call it "the world". That is incorrect. TSR had a competition asking players to propose a=20 name for the planet where "The Known World" was found. Mystara was the=20 submission that won... though you may be correct that it was generated from= =20 "Mystery Star" -- I remember Bruce mentioning something along those lines=20 at one time. I remember someone asking about this not to long ago, and I searched my= =20 Dragon archive for a concrete reference. I never did locate anything for=20 the original competition but I did find a short note in a side bar to some= =20 Known World article -- possibly a VotPA -- mentioning that the contest was= =20 still going on and giving (I think) a deadline. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to find it again at the moment... Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <=3D=3D> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <=3D=3D> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:30:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Tyrannies of Mystara In-Reply-To: <20001104012856.DEE5E8175@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> So what? What nation of Mystara doesn't fall into that category? >> >> Rockhome and Bellayne, for example. > Can't say about Bellayne, as I'm not overly familiar with the Savage Coast > region... On the Savage Coast, the Barony of Gargona certainly and maybe the Barony of Saragon. Saragon while ruled by a Baron, by title, the government closely resembles a federal republic. Then would you consider the Lands of Wallara to be a nation? If so, then the Lands of Wallara would also fall in to the non-tyranny category. Before semantics swamp the discussion, a working definition of state-tyranny is needed. Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:37:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Anondson wrote: > > Has any accessory ever claimed to have had a model of the Mystaran solar > system, even if it wasn't detailed? FWIW, I simply use our own Solar System, given the formation of the Known World's continents. :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DJ Sahlas Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't see any Greco-Latin sound to the name Mystara; it ends in -a and has >a -y- inside; that pattern can be found in a few hundreds of RW languages. Not that I have strong feelings about this, but "Mystra" (or "Mystras") is a village in Greece, all that remains of the mighty second city of the Byzantine Empire in its latter centuries . I always thought naming The Known World was a bad idea, as it lost some of its feel. Jim Sahlas ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Jens wrote: >> now all the bad things they did were done to non-Thyatians and there is little or no horrible treachery toward each other << Except throughout the entire litany of our history where they're deposing and murdering each other, plotting and scheming against each other, yes. I don't know how you can read our version of The History of Thyatis and come away with the impression that there is no horrible treachery towards each other done by the Thyatians in it. I do have to say that I've had one person criticising that he thinks there is too much conflict among the Thyatians themselves, and now you criticising that there is little or none at all, which makes me suspect we hit a good balance overall between the two. As for the Luc & Zen thing, that's a non-issue now, it's been changed. Zendrolion does kill Lucinius so I'm sure you'll be satisfied with it, as that was your main bone of contention. But to leave the impression that in our version of the History of Thyatis their is no Thyatian vs. Thyatian treachery is to leave people with a misimpression, I think. I wonder if you were to write a history of the Alphatian Empire whether the Alphatians would behave anywhere near as badly as we have many of the Thyatian Emperors behaving. My guess is no. I'm not sure you'd even have the Kerothar Emperors (notorious, IMO, as not such a good line of Emperors) behaving as badly, given your subsiquent commentary on other aspects of our history and your expressed feeling that it portrays the Alphatia of the Kerothar Era in too harsh a light. >> In your version he was a very bad person. Thus, killing him makes it << Except that he's was not really killed. That's the entire point; in that version he's cahoots with Zendrolion, and isn't really "asassinated" at all. >> more in line with the 'propaganda' version where he goes mad from Alphatian magics, << That's a connection you're throwing in on your own, I think possibly to try to stir things up, given that you evidently want me to excise the things that reflect less-than-positively on Alphatia from the history. There was absolutely no such inference in our version. If you want to assume there was, that's you - not us. The only thing I'll say about the rest of that is that I think that in many if not most of the your arguments you're streatching to reach a point, and reaching to make conclusions, assumptions, and even accusations that aren't there. Because the one good hero is not treacherously assassinated in a power game - he was never that hero in the first place. But that part's over and done with; no need to argue it out further, it's fixed. >> particularly with Alphas VI (the subsequent redeemer-emperor of Alphatia) plotting just as much and speculating on the Alphatian throne... >Plotting, yes. But of the three, which is most sympathetic? > >> He's still a pretty awful person, though. << Ahh - that might be the problem. For one thing, I don't think he comes off as "awful" at all (not Good in Alignment, perhaps, but not Evil - I'd say Lawful Neutral). But your point of irritation *really* is that Alphas VI, the Alphatian, doesn't come off as a completely noble and totally above board person in our version. Well, *shrug* -- I'm not changing Alphas VI in it; he's a vivid character in the history, and if he's not noble enough for your tastes, well, I don't think he's all that pure in the sketchy version in the Player's Guide to Alphatia history (instituting harsh measures and harsh penalties and all, and crushing revolts) - but he's a more vivid persona in ours, with arguably good reasons for the harsh measures he uses incorporated into our characterization of his motives. Yes, he falls short of being a Favian Vern or a Broderick. But I'm not going to change him on that account. But he is concientious, and that's important; he sees his society decaying around him.! ! He doesn't throw in completely with the "other side" (as the Cleric Retebius does), but when he sees a possible oportunity to fix things, he siezes it. Siezing things isn't always pretty, but that's politics. >> First, if he's really associated that much with Zendrolion and, especially, Lucinius, would the Alphatians have made him emperor? << They don't know the full details of his involvement (not by a long shot). You're arguing that they do, I might suspect (given the later accusations you direct at me in your reply, I think it's ok to suspect) has to do less with the merits of your points and more with the fact that you just don't like how Alphas VI comes across. Which is odd, because he's portrayed as a concientious guy wanting the best for his (obviously decaying) society - being willing to resort to drastic measures to do so, to be sure (and that's not "pure" and always "nice", but neither is he - but he *is* concientious in our version). >> I'd think they'd accuse him of having created the whole mess by 'teaching those barbarians our magic' << I thought it was your position that the Alphatians embraced anyone who could learn magic, and that one of the positive things the Alphatians did (and why you think their harshly despotic and cruel rule over Thyatis wasn't so bad) was their willingness, as a people, to teach anyone who could learn it magic. Now you're taking the oposite position. Interesting. . . If you want to take this position, the Alphatians being adamantly opposed to teaching non-Alphatians magic, and outraged that anyone of their member would do such a thing, then that's fine. But I'll expect you to keep that position consistantly in the future. If you do, though, I *will* excise the part about Alphas VI being Lucinius's teacher. Actually, I probably shouldn't - that wouldn't be accurate in either case. But I'll make the offer anyhow, and do it if you accept. << What are the odds that he'd teach Lucinius, and then the Grand Council would choose him, of all people, as the next emperor? << It's a plotline/storyline, and one of those interesting historical quirks. Odds? Screw the odds; the odds make for uninteresting stuff "some random, faceless guy becomes Emperor Alphas VI after Kerothar IV is deposed". And history often (not always, but sometimes) has strange and unusual coincidences; indeed, "truth is stranger than fiction". Well, this *is* fiction, and it's interesting this way. I'm opposed to makeing it bland. >> Third, all this scheming doesn't seem quite Alphatian somehow - it's doesn't seem quite 'chaotic' enough to me, and thus a little OOC for Alphatia. << But not for Alphas VI, who doesn't come off in the History as the Alphatians Know It as all that chaotic a person (or do you think *all* Alphatian Wizards are Chaotic? If you want to take that position, then fine - but I'll expect you to keep it consistantly). Alphas VI comes off as the most "Lawful" Alphatian of all, with his imposition of laws and harsh methods to restore order and impose duty among those who have no innate sense of duty. Alphas VI "chaotic"? I don't think so, not in the Player's Guide to Alphatia description of what he does. Anyhow, I thought it was your position that the Alphatian wizards were a varied lot, and though the vast majority were chaotic, and chaotic was the nature of the Alphatian Empire, but that not *all* Alphatian wizards are the same, some aren't like that. I agreed with that opinion when you held it, seeing (for example) Tylion IV/"Terari" as one such example (to whom I'd mention his grandaughter, Eldrethila, as far as an example of a Lawful Alphatian Wizard, among other possible examples. . .including Alphas VI). >> Well, by now I'm sure you can guess that I don't like that so much. << Yep; he's not Favian Vern. I'll give you that. But he's not Favian Vern in the "canon" version, either, I don't think. >> I don't really mind that so much - I just don't like his association with Lucinius because it makes all other wizards in Alphatia seem so inactive. If he was really in Thyatis, then I don't think they'd bring him in to be emperor. << Why not? "he knows the enemy, he knows why we're losing, he makes good arguments about what's wrong with the Empire these days, especially the Kerothars, perhaps he can fix what's wrong". >> He created a council of wizards that could veto his decisions? << How many vetos did the Council of Wizards use to prevent the excesses of the Kerothar's? "Not until it was almost too late and drastic measures were needed to save the Empire" is the answer to that question. >> He made all spellcasters aristocrats? << Um, I don't want to sound rude here, but try and pay attention to details: the history says he instituted a military despotism rather than a magical one. >> I've tried very hard to not see that comment as a jab against Alphatia, and I've failed! << Well, I don't see you complaining about how often the Thyatians *are* portrayed in our history as engaging in nefarious, wicked scheming on their own - just in the instance when Alphatia is mentioned. Well, hate to brake it to you, but Alphatia, especially circa AY 1000/AC 0 Alphatia, wasn't such a nice place; if you get the impression from the "canon" history that Alphatia as of AY 1000/AC 0 was infused with a benign spirit, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. > It isn't until Valentia comes along that the Thyatians develop an Imperial Model of their own. You don't have to like it, but that's just factually the case. > >> I'm not denying that part. That's true. << Well, there you go. That's, in effect, what is said in our history. > If you think the Kerothar Emperors ruled better or more benignly, then I think you're missing a lot. > >> And I would agree, but I didn't think that - they were harsh, arrogant, and racist, which is why Aasla the wizardess moved away and founded her own city. << Right; well, saying Zendrolion (a guy you see as a very nasty fellow) emulating Alphatian Emperors who you would agree were not the most positive examples of Alphatian governance doesn't reflect well on Alphatia *or* Thyatis, but is an apt comparison - funny thing being, Alphatia gets a concientious Emperor at the same time that Thyatis gets a self-serving one. I can see the irony, can't anyone else? >> I just don't like the way that part is worded, because it sounds to me as if Alphatia must be to blame if Thyatis is not a nice place. << Well, I'm not sure how you can read our *entire* history and be left with only that impression. Because most of the nasty scheming comes *after* Valentia develops a "uniquely Thyatian Imperial Model", and without any Alphatian involvement at all (well, with some; the times the Alphatians get screwed over by treacherous Thyatians such as Valeria II) - I'm not going to purge our version of things that cast Alphatia in a negative light, anymore than the DotE History of Alphatia is purged of things that cast Thyatis and Thyatians in a negative light. If I were to look at "our" version, indeed, from the perspective of a purely Thyatian patriot (something I'm often accused of being), indeed I'd be upset about how badly it portrays Thyatis. A few paragraphs that include some unflattering comparisons for Alphatia - well, if and when you do the "other side" version of A History of Alphatia, if you don't include any disparaging remarks about Thyatis, then: 1) You're criticisms here will be apt. but 2) Your version of Alphatian History will be innacurate, since even if (as I'd hope it would) your version doesn't contradict ours in its events, there would be plenty of places where it should have less-than-flattering things to say about the behavior of Thyatis and Thyatians. Heck, not "even if" but "especially if" your version of Alphatia's history didn't contradict ours in its events there would be plenty of places where an evaluation of Thyatian behavior (Valeria II to use that example) would not seem positive. >> Maybe so. Still, it's the impression I get at times. Since you like Thyatis, that's fine - focus on the parts you like and play on them. << I'm not sure you can read through our entire History of Thyatis and accurately say that we only focused on the likable parts of Thyatis. If only those who wrote stuff for Alphatia would be as candid, indeed, I think there'd be a lot less problem overall and most of the discussions and disagreements over *that* nation would be unnessissary. But I think it's evident in your response, and this may sound like a harsh asessment, but I feel it's warranted given the nature of your criticisms of our version (which have focused almost entirely on areas where it portrays Alphatia in a less than positive light, or where you infer that it *possibly* *might* cast Alphatia in a more negative light - as with your criticisms of our original Lucinius & Zendrolion twist, believing that it somehow made Thyatis look better {still and will always be puzzled by this one} and somehow made Alphatia look worse {no evidence for that conclusion, so I'm not even puzzled by it. It's just not the case}), that you're not prepaired to be nearly as candid about certain aspects and certain times in Alphatian history (and AY 1000/AC 0 was probably the darkest period as far as the behavior of the Alphatians went. That's just not seriously disputable). >> But please respect that I like Alphatia and would rather that people didn't try to give the impression that this is what Alphatia is like. << This is what Alphatia in AY 500 - AY 1000 was like; that's "canon" history. "now" is a thousand years later. People tend to act as if things are always static. But why would you emphasize, as you sometimes do, the impact of, say, Mylertendal on Alphatian society - or even Alphas VI - if things were as good then as you think they are in the "present"? You seem to be implying that you admit that nothing has changed one way or another in the intervening period. That would be bizzare, because as you yourself agreed, the Kerothar rulers wern't such a swell bunch. So if nothing changed at all, then. . . Now, my point has been that folks like Mylertendal (especially) didn't have such a sweepingly positive impact on Alphatian behavior as is sometimes argued (remember, the inhabitants of the Alatian Islands were uprooted after the spread of Mylertendal's philosphy - and, indeed, as a consiquence of it, when an Emperor decided to use them for a beautification project. Had the inhabitants recently revolted or something? They don't seem to have; they were just in the way of his planned beautification of the isles, so they had to go. The kind of arbitrary behavior they had left Alphatia proper to escape, but apparently they didn't go far enough to be out of reach of this kind of thing). But I don't argue there has been no change between the Alphatia of the late Kerothar Era and modern Alphatia. And usually you argue that there has been more change than I think there has been, not less, and more positive change for the better (not less) in recent centuries. Now you seem to be arguing! ! that there has been almost no change, and a comment on the Kerothar era that is less than flattering - well, I have to ask why your Stalker is a "reformist" Alphatian if things in modern Alphatia are good, and your position seems that there was no change in things during the preceeding thousand years. What would there be to reform? And if things are changeless, what would the prospects for reform be, anyhow, even if they needed changing? >Now if I get your point correctly, I definately think you're confused. If you've concluded that we said "Hey! Lucinius was trained by the Alphatians, so he must be evil!" you're just absolutely mistaken. < >> I didn't think that, no. << That is, however, exactly what you are implying when you claim that if Lucinius is portrayed as less than heroic it somehow reflects badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis and somehow lends credence to the "he went mad because of Alphatian magics" theory, and when you accuse us of *trying* to do that deliberately. >> Well, Lucinius is one of the few really good people of Mystara... and he's promptly killed off in the most hideous manner! To me Mystara loses some of it's appeal if we remove that. << Well, ok; I take that point and accept it as vaild; I have changed it back to the "canon" version, and that's what happens now (Lucinius now really *is* a Favian Vern, and frankly I'm glad, as a gamer - not a "Thyatian patriot" - that he got killed off before he could create a "fluffy-bunny happy ending" in Thyatis. I raise my glass in toast to a hope the same thing happens to the "modern" Lucinius-Favian Vern). But that's a good point. >> Well, I do wonder because it seems to me like you're trying to remove Zendrolion's horrifying treachery...<< Again, IMO an odd conclusion when he still murders two allies, reigns as a despot, *and* we add to that him willingly becoming undead. How that removes the stain and taint of his evil is still something I have trouble understanding, but you're not alone, I gather, in that conclusion at least. What I will adamantly assert is that we were NOT trying to remove his treachery, and I actually strongly resent that characterization, because throughout this discussion in my replies to every participant it should have become VERY clear by now that our INTENTION was the opposite - having both of them be more vile in certain respects (I'd have argued them as Lawful Evil-to-Neutral Evil). The focus of these discussions has been my disagreement with those who think we made them come off as better people - either of them (inarguably Lucinius comes off as a worse persion; the dispute was over whether Zendrolion is somehow made more sympathetic or not, and in your case whether making Lucinius a worse person somehow, in some strange manner, reflects badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis). Therefore, to accuse me of *trying* to wipe away Zendrolion's villany is a bit much, a meritless accusation. One can (as we have) debate whether that was the *effect* or not, but to accuse me of having! ! that *intent* is just - well, I won't get angry about it I guess. >> It's more like I wonder if you're trying to remove the traits of 'treachery' that canon establishes in Thyatis, because IMHO those were always founded by Zendrolion's ghastly actions. << I guess I have to ask: when you got to this point in our history, did you just get so inflamed about it that you stopped reading, and never read the rest? Because anyone who has read the rest will see plenty of treachery, usurpation, self-serving greed for power, and all the other "bad" traits "canon" establishes in Thyatis come up numerous times. If you didn't read the rest, I invite you to do so. >> Not all good things in Mystara are Alphatian IMHO << I have to say that when you dispute anything that paints Alphatia in a less than fully flattering light (as you have with these criticism of our history), while simoultaniously refusing to aknowlege the parts in it where other countries than Alphatia (I.E. Thyatis) are portrayed less than flattering, and indeed accusing us of doing things we didn't do (remove treachery from the Thyatians in our history) and of intentions we didn't have (and manifestly didn't have, as can be seen in the parts of this topic/discussion that preceeded your accusation, wherin I took issue with the belief that we made Zendrolion seem better, and my obvious opinion was that we didn't), then I do have to wonder whether it is the case that - well, whatever. >> You did ask for criticism, though, so I offered mine. << Criticism is fine; but accusations such as saying we tried to do this or we removed Thyatian treachery (which run contrary to the evidence of our entire Thyatian history; indeed, as I read through it again the other day, I thought we might have overdone the number of vile and despicable Thyatian Emperors). Well, criticism and a discussion of it is one thing, and I'm happy to discuss this or that point and why we chose to do it that way and whether it needs modification or addition or explaination. But these accusations, on the other hand, I think is going too far, and your sole concern seemingly being whether we portrayed AY 500 - AY 100 Alphatia in a light you don't find flattering; well, as a "reformist" Alphatian, who's character sees much to reform in "today's" Alphatia, I wouldn't *think* you'd *admire* the Alphatia of that era! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 01:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara >> Before semantics swamp the discussion, a working definition of state-tyranny is needed. << Well, there are several possible applications. For me, I use "tyrany" to describe behavior of the ruler more often than not (a tyranical ruler behaves arbitrarily and despotically); I'd argue that Darokin is *not* a tyranny (Jens's assertion to the contrary notwithstanding); at least not as depicted in the Gaz ("he who has the gold makes the rules" also notwithstanding); it's a Plutocratic Republic, but (again as depicted in the Gaz) those in charge govern in the best interests, insofar as they see it, of all of Darokin, can be removed from office if they don't, and are portrayed as broadly speaking enlightened, looking out for the common welfare, not *just* their own welfare (in the belief that governing in the interest of all Darokinians *is* in the common welfare). I'd make a distinction between the Kingdom of Vestland and the Kingdom of Ostland (Thyatis's ally), saying that the former is less of a tyranny than the latter (though even Ostland under Hord One-Eye isn't a horrible Tyrany, unless you're a Thrall - just like Alphatia isn't as tyrannical if you're a Aristocrat, but if you're a Servant it's pretty tyrannical). I, personally, would argue that Karameikos was established as a tyranny (Stefan moves in with his buddies, cronies, and hangers on, and arbitrarily gives lands away to said buddies, cronies, and hangers on in disregard of the pre-existing patterns of governance, which even the previous Thyatian governors had seen fit to leave alone and not upset, and furthermore he gives out these grants without much regard for the merits of the recipient, thus we get Ludwig; and he crushes the resulting rebellion), BUT the materiel subsiquently portrays him as not ruling as a tyrant, but his government instead as an "enlightened monarchy" (no serfdom, fair laws for all and much freedom - all sorts of personal freedom, missing political freedom, but then the same could be said of Alphatia's Aristicratic Class). My opinion of Stefan is at variance from the "canon" description (I don't see a guy who finds it impossible to see evil in others, and thus has trouble picking worthy nobles and advisor! ! s, as so great a ruler. He's lucky, IMO, that he has Olivia by his side to sort these things out, otherwise I shudder to think who the Ministers would be if Stefan were left to choose them himself); I personally agree with Jens on this one, but by "canon" Karameikos is, by AC 1000 at least, not a tyrany, dispite what Jens or my own opinion might be. Tyranny, IMO, also involves *a* despotic ruler, not rulers (that's an Oligarchy, in Traveller Government Code it would be a "Self Perpetuating Oligarchy") - thus, even if one thinks Glantri is a despotic place, it isn't a tyrany IMO (though various Principalities within it would qualify as tyranies, governed as they are by a single Prince). There is no one King or Emperor or Empress ruling Glantri, though, so it doesn't really qualify as a tyranny as such (it might very well qualify as being governed despotically though - or even "tyrannically", though that is debatable; the Principalities are governed somewhat arbitrarily, but Glantri as a whole isn't really). Thyatis, whatever else one can say about it, is not a Tyranny (the Senate must pass laws, the Emperor can veto them, the Citizens and even the slaves have legal protections against arbitrary treatment). As a model of government and law, the Thyatian one (in a era of Kingdoms and Oligarchies and Despotates) isn't so bad - again, as a *model* of government and law (*practice* is another matter - with corruption and graft and the like; but corruption isn't exactly the same as tyranny as such). PWA II+ Thyatis is portrayed as a despotic tyranny, however (especially III & parts of JA; one might then conclude that Thyatis becomes a tyranny under Eusebius Torion or that Eusebius Torion is an arbitrary tyrant if one follows this portrayal). Alphatia is "interesting" - Alphatia is a tyranny, but Eriadna is not tyrannical by nature. In Alphatia most people have few rights, and are not protected by law or custom from arbitrary and tyranical treatment. Oddly, IMO, and ironically, Alphatia in the PWAs, the "benign" Alphatia, is portrayed in *some* ways as more tyrannical than it is in DotE. How so? In PWA I the various Kings & Queens are reduced to yes-men rubber-stamp fuctionaries of Eriadna (who "proves" she is who she is by flying into something akin to what is called a "Leader Rage" in Space Opera's "Azuriach Imperium" accessury, thus cowing the Underleaders into submission), Alphatia becomes portrayed from then forward as a Centralized State under Autocratic Rule (as mentioned in an earlier thread, nothing is heard of the Great Council of Wizards, and the Kings and Queens fade from view after Eriadna asserts her absolutist rule over them, and she then seems to Rule by Decree). The "Rule by Decree" part isn't alie! ! n from even DotE Alphatia, however, which is one reason why its a tyranny even there - for most people, but *not* for the Aristocrats (why is it good to be an Aristocrat in Alphatia? The freedoms you get. The freedoms you get from what? arbitrarily tyrannical treatment. For the same reason but to a significantly lesser extent its better to be Gentry than Freeman, and better to be Freeman than Servant. Slave goes without question). How about Ylaruam? Is the Sultan a tyrannt? Depends on how much you take religion seriously, and the Ylari seem to take it very seriously. Is it a "Religious Autocracy"? Perhaps. But arbitrary rule is mitigated by the precepts and teachings of al-Kalim; violation of those would get a Sultan ousted, but the Sultans themselves (or at least the present one) firmly *believes* in those precepts. Now, a religious tyranny is certainly possible (as my friends who oppose organized religion will quickly jump in to say), but Ylaruam is not tyranical (again, judging by the Gaz). The Sultan is a Monarch, but his behavior is governed by the precepts of al-Kalim, most Ylari live free lives (and those who are "slaves" are really indentured servants sentenced to that condition temporarily as a result of a crime); Ylaruam isn't really a despotism. Five Shires: not a tyranny as such. Minrothad: not a tyranny. It's a Corporatist (political science term) State, and people might have problems with that sort of government, but Minrothad is not a tyranny as such. Ierendi: another "odd" government. Not a tyranny; the King (or Queen) has limited power, it's more akin to an Olygarchy (self-perpetuating? We learn little about the shadowy cabal that *really* governs Ierendi. Has anyone done any work on them)? Yavdlom: What? I have no idea what you'd classify a Divinarchy as. I don't think it's a tyranny as such, unless you count being governed by the Whims of Fate and Providence as a tyranny, but then all life is tyranny I guess, if you believe in predestination. Frankly, I hate the concept of predestination in games (though, contradictorially, I like Yavdlom). Why? Because for me gaming is a way to escape feelings of powerless and impotence, not be told that one's destiny is outside of one's hands. But Yavdlom isn't a tyranny. Sind: Sind is a tyranny under the Master of Hule's control (occupying power), what it is otherwise is slightly more complex, but the Mumlekets are probably tyrannies (if governed by a "benign tyrannt" in some cases, as Alphatia is under Eriadna), and thus Sind as a whole is probably a tyranny (the lives of most Sindhi, even without the MoH forces around, aren't so hot). Atruaghin Clans - ? Ethengar: Tyranny. Norwold: Pretty much the same comments apply here as apply under Karameikos; guy shows up one day, in this case because his mother told him he could rule the place (rather than because his drinking buddy told him he could), and claims the entire area, and starts making arbitrary appointments of rulers, disregarding established custom (yah, I played in the place and enjoyed it - at the time I didn't bother much to think about how the 1d100 families per hex in "my" dominion, and we all hoped for a high roll I'm sure, had governed themselves before the arrival of Our Heroes either. But they probably had felt just fine about how things had been going for milenia, or at any rate didn't think much of having some guy show up and say "Hi, I'm your new ruler because some guy from far away apointed by his mother told me I was your new ruler. Don't be late with your taxes." Tyranny. I like to imagine I was an enlightened despot, though). Barkal the Red? Now he's one of the real rulers of! ! the place. How do the local barbarians select their chiefs? They might not be tyrants. But all the lot of the newcommers and "nobles" appointed as a result of Ericall and Alphatia's claim, those are tyrants. What about Yarvik the Just? Not a tyrant, probably, but not enough to go on (the nickname "the just" tends to indicate he's not a tyrant, though). Denagoth: Absolutely a tyranny. Wendar: Not enough data, but probably not a Tyranny. A Tyrant really could do a lot to cement his despotic and arbitrary rule if he had that Elvenstar, though. But it just doesn't seem like the local King rules as a despot, though we don't know enough to be sure. Soderfjord Jarldoms: individual Jarldoms are probably (or at least possibly) tyrannies, but a place without a central government isn't, overall, a tyranny as such. It's an anarchic collection of petty, squabbling warlords, but not a tyranny. Alfheim: not a tyranny as described. Shadow Elves: also not a tyranny. I know those who like Alfheim will be irritated at this assessment, but the fact that they make war and conquer and despoil Alfheim doesn't mean that the Shadow Elves are governed tyrannically. They might not be nice fellows from your point of view (just as Thyatis might not be nice from your point of view), but that's different from having a tyrannical goverment. They're "just" rather ruthless conquerers. 8-) They don't even rule over the Alfheim elves tyrannically or despotically - since they force them all to flee. Broken Lands: everyone but the noble Kol is a tyrant. Kol is also a tyrant, but he's just so darn. . .*cute* about it. Milenia is not a tyranny. Azcan Empire is a tyranny. Nithia is probably not a tyranny. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:30:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Tyrannies of Mystara In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:14 11/4/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >Five Shires: not a tyranny as such. It's a republic of five equally powerful elected executive officials. There's no mention of the clan leaders being able to recall a Sheriff if need be, but I suspect something of the sort exists. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:38:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > Jens wrote: > >> now all the bad things they did were done to non-Thyatians and there is little or no horrible treachery toward each other << > > Except throughout the entire litany of our history where they're deposing and murdering each other, plotting and scheming against each other, yes. I don't know how you can read our version of The History of Thyatis and come away with the impression that there is no horrible treachery towards each other done by the Thyatians in it. > > I do have to say that I've had one person criticising that he thinks there is too much conflict among the Thyatians themselves, and now you criticising that there is little or none at all, which makes me suspect we hit a good balance overall between the two. I think that the Stalker's point is not to say that there is no treachery overall in Thyatian history. The thing he likes is the fact that the Empire was BORN on treachery, and somehow this cast a stain on the Thyatian people, a sort of curse, after which Thyatians have become that treacherous people they are. When he says that he didn't like the fact that the Thyatian treachery was removed, he didn't mention Thyatian treachery throughout history, but this foundation of Thyatian history that appeals to more than one gamer on the list. This treachery that founds an Empire, this treachery of brother against brother. It's somehow the counterpart to the Alphatians blowing off their world, the defining of the character of the two uber-empire starting from the beginning of their history as Empires on Mystara: Alphatia blows up its homeworld because of a stupid magic-philosophic discussion (defining chaos, no respect for ethics when opposed with magic and knowledge, but also with them being sure that they are right), Thyatis is born as an Empire from the worst treachery that can be: a friend who kills a trusting friend (plus the other two kings) just for power. Still, I don't think the Stalker referred to all Thyatian history: he just liked this kind of treachery at this point. Well, Stalker, it's up to you to tell us who understood what you were meaning...or even tell us we're both wrong. 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis By the way, it seems that more or less we are managing to discuss things. 8-) I guess wheter this means we are nearing a point of boliling? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:50:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Chronicles of Nentsun- Part Four: We Have Heaven (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CHAPTER FOUR: WE HAVE HEAVEN Famine: how could it be? In the Outer Circle it could, as it was not protected by the Devices. So it struck that year, and with it came Plague, and with it came an orc invasion from the hills. The orcs hadn�t have charismatic and efficient leaders since a long time, and they had warred against each other and against the half-orcish kingdoms of the southern Outer Circle. Many had crossed the mountains and attacked the Jennites, some had managed to be more dangerous, but no real organized attack had been planned before the war which their leader Hjka called Inheritance of Heaven. Hjka was an orc born in 701, and was raised in the city of Jarka, a border community of orcs and humans in the southernmost kingdom of the Outer Circle. When the plague and the famine came, he was only 7, and the city of Jarka was soon abandoned by all. Refugees fled northwards, bringing with them the plague to new lands, but most of its inhabitants had died. Hjika himself was abandoned by his parents because he had been struck by the disease. The luck was on his part: firstly, he survived the disease; secondly, an orcish band, noticing the state of abandon of many of the southern cities, ignoring the reason for it, gladly descended from the hills to take possession of them. Many orcs were killed by the disease, but one of the many orc leaders adopted him as his son and told him how to fight. The orc was a cruel beast. He lended the youth to other orc warriors for their �entertainment�, and lashed him every time the young orc couldn�t accomplish one of the orders he received. Hjika became a bodyguard, a servant, a slave, hardly a son. Hjika hated his stepfather. The only good thing was that he taught him how to fight�burning at the forge of hate, he became the strongest warrior of the band at 14 years, killed his hated master, and took the leadership of the clan. With stern determination, and a hate for the land that had abandoned him in the hands of those orcs which he hated as well, Hjika unified in a dozen of years all the major orcish clans of the hills under his iron fist. Then he moved to the Inheritance of Heaven. What had happened in Nentsun between 708 AC, when the plague started in the south-eastern cities of the Outer Circle, and 728 AC, when the War for the Inheritance of Heaven started? The plague had hit the land and had killed thousands. The famine in the Outer Circle had done the same. The country was struck by panic, refugees hit by the plague moved from city to city hoping to find help, but all they found was death. Armies were greatly reduced. The plague ended definitely around 715 AC. In those years, it had stopped and started again several times, so no-one knew wheter this would be the true end�the country began to recover, and for the first time it was talk of a new democratic system of ruling, instead of the leadership of kings and aristocracies. Unfortunately, in 728 AC Hjika prepared his invasion. It started all of a sudden from the southwestern lands. A great part of the Outer Circle had been left by its inhabitants, and that land was mostly abandoned and wasted. Hjika�s orc bands had already occupied several parts of it to prepare the invasion. It took a lot of time before the authorities of the various kingdoms understood what was happening. Although the situation had become much better and the population had begun to grow, contacts were few and the population sparse in the region. Hjika knew this. His aim was not to occupy all the land, it was just to kill as many Nentsunians as possible and then build a new kingdom for his orcs. When the other states of Nentsun managed to raise an army, Hjika pondered what to do. If he won, he could have Nentsun at his feet�but if he lost, it would mean the end. Currently he held the possession of one of the best regions of the Inner Circle, that of Einikushagi, formerly settled by rakastas, all fled or killed during Hjika�s invasion. Hjika sent envoys to the allied armies and sued for peace in change of the recognition of his authority on Einikushagi. The human leaders agreed. The rakasta leaders were enraged, but Hjika promised to free all the rakastas enslaved and captured by his troops, and the human leaders convinced the rakastas to accept (731 AC). Hjika announced proudly to the orcs that �we have Heaven�. But his savage orcs were not very happy to stop from the easy life of plunder and random destruction to devote their lives to agricolture and peace. Hjika found more and more problems to control them, and although some ultimately accepted the situation, thinking that it had been an improvement, most didn�t want to. First, they directed the irritation about their situations against each other: the old clan rivalries resurfaced, and Hjika found himself amidst a civil war of his people, who refused to obey a �friend of the humans� . Hjika sought the help of the other kingdoms: they told him that they would help him, they even organized an army, but their march stopped in Selemy, the neighbour kingdom of Einikushagi. Hjika, very nervous, sent several times envoys to ask why, but none returned. Finally, while his own fortress was put under siege by the victorious clan, an envoy from the Nentsun kingdom arrived, asking why he hadn�t asked them to intervene. Hjika�s fortress was conquered and the orc leader killed, then the army moved and destroyed all the rebellious orcs. Einikushugi was resettled by rakastas, but the orcs who had abandoned the savage ways were accepted in the area (738 AC). By the way: the envoys had all arrived in Selemy, but they were all put to death or killed as rebels by the allied Nentsunian forces. They couldn�t forgive Hjika for his victorious campaign of 728-31 AC. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:05:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Scaevola's Photo up on the Web! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, guys: you have the opportunity of seeing the face of your famous Captain Scaevola. The photo is available at this address: www.geocities.com/talerio/dankok.gif ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:33:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evil Genius wrote: > I'd make a distinction between the Kingdom of Vestland and the Kingdom = of Ostland (Thyatis's ally), saying that the former is less of a tyranny = than the latter (though even Ostland under Hord One-Eye isn't a horrible = Tyrany, unless you're a Thrall - just like Alphatia isn't as tyrannical = if you're a Aristocrat, but if you're a Servant it's pretty tyrannical). I suppose I should jump in here, take offense, and defend *my* favorite = nation. But Ostland under Hord Dark-Eye is a tyranny in my book (but no, = not horrible), and individual jarldoms can easily be tyrannies, in the = same way as the Soderfjord Jarldoms. Now if any Soderfjorders take = offense at this... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:46:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Eric Anondson wrote: > I'm reading various Mystaran accessories and I'm catching references to > space bodies here and there. The obvious ones we all know, the moons and > Alphatia old homeworld. Has anyone done a compilation of all the "canon" > references? I'm particularly interested in the rest of what might be > Mystara'a solar system. Especially since just found that the nation of > Emerond (in PWA2) is populated by people from a band of asteroids called the > Pyrithian Archipelago beyond the Skyshield. Seemingly, a body in > Mystaraspace then? The Mystara Space Project consists of Marco Dalmonte and myself. However, we have been inactive for some time now. Mystaras galaxy is described to some detail in the old Immortals Set(Gold box). Basically, Mystaras solar system is similar to the RW one, with a few modifications; The Asteroid Belt is replaced by a large advanced world called Damocles. Mercury does not exist. Beyond Pluto is a another planet called Charon. Alpha Centauri is the nearest planet with intelligent life on it. Epsilon Eridani (where Babylon 5 is) is the closest civilization with magical knowledge. James Mishler postulated that this is the home world of the Pyrithians (Ancestors of Mystaras Emerondians). > How many nations or groups of people are thought to come from another > planet? Emerondians Grens (Kavyids name, only Benekander is still alive) Myoshiman Rakastas (Probably originally Mystaran) Alphatians Flaems Dragons (according to Mystaros epic timeline) hmmm...who did I leave out? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:51:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Chronicles of Nentsun- Part Four: We Have Heaven MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caroletti presented yet another chapter of history... Well, I look forward to when (if) you get to something that's more = suitable for gaming. I find it really hard to keep reading through these = historical essays. Of course, I can always catch up on Starflung later. = :) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:01:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, > > checkers, Chinese checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? > > Do Mystarans play cards? > > This is what I came up with in a quick hunt: > > Assorted games in Mystara: The Penhaligon trilogy mentioned a game called Wizards and Warrions, which i think was similar to chess. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:41:39 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > Because now Zendrolion is, in truth, not quite so bad. Yes, he does some horrible things, but he no longer either kills his best friend for the throne or manipulates Lucinius to kill Alphatians for him until he can take power himself. Also, Evil + 5 - 5 = Evil (for the mathematically inclined people here). though the two may be bad people in your version, their 'evil' is somehow justified because they were repelling the Alphatian invaders. In that sense they're heroes, even if they turn out to be bad people - now all the bad things they did They were repelling Alphatian invaders in any version. he was trying to free! Now, however, Thyatis looks a little better because their one great hero is not treacherously murdered - he was never that hero in the first place. Thus killing him wasn't really such a mind-blowing bad thing IMHO. > Most people don't know that though. Plus, the fact that he overthrew the Alphatians remains unchanged. And I dare say that Lucinius did not lead the revolt solely out of altruistic reasons - he quite likely had a desire to rule Thyatis himself which was part of his reasons. > >>> it does remove that stain from Thyatis, << > > > >I can't see how it does that. How does it do that? > > > > Because the one good hero is not treacherously assassinated in a power game - he was never that hero in the first place. > As I pointed out above, was Lucinius truly a pure, unblemished, goody two-shoes hero in the canon version? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:57:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <3A037667.8C07FF61@teleport.com>; from xenya@TELEPORT.COM on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:37:28PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:37:28PM -0800, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > Eric Anondson wrote: > > > > Has any accessory ever claimed to have had a model of the Mystaran solar > > system, even if it wasn't detailed? > > FWIW, I simply use our own Solar System, given the formation of the > Known World's continents. :-) Yup, I pretty much do the same, although without Uranus, Neptune and Pluto/Charon. I had Damocles between Mars(Vanya) and Jupiter(Wotan) but called it Aelos because I preferred the name :) Aelos was a world full of psionics and was engaged in a war with Alphatia shortly before the start of WotI. This war (kept very secret by the Alphatian Government since they don't want anyone to even know about psionics) helped reduce the Empires fighting ability (so it wouldn't be able to splat Glantri within a day) and also allowed for the destruction of Aelos (yup the Alphatians went and blew up another planet). Unfortunately one of the pieces of Aelos came flying towards Mystara and was nudged towards Darokin... Then I saw Phantom Menace and decided that some of the Aelosians had survived and wandered around Jedi style fighting the other Aelosians who wandered around looking like the guild spokespeople from Dune (the movie). Anyway, I'm rambling now... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:15:46 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:14:18 Agathokles wrote: > >> I'll make Giulio very happy now and say, yes, Alphatia is not a nice > >place! It's a tyranny! You're right when you say so. All I can say to > >that, however, is... So what? What nation of Mystara doesn't fall into > >that category? > > > >Rockhome and Bellayne, for example. > > I'm not sure I agree about Rockhome - the dwarves have a *very* strict and disciplined society, though it is just and fair. You just asked it not to be a tyranny, not to be an anarchy! (in which case, any stretch of non-governed land would go). Moreover, it is a strict and disciplined society because the dwarf like it that way, not because they can't change it. > Can't say about Bellayne, as I'm not overly familiar with the Savage Coast region... It's a parliamentary monarchy, much like U.K. (which it is modeled after). > No, but it still doesn't make for a nice place to live, then. (And to tell you the truth, I personally find the cute and 'awful-good' nature of the Shires so disgusting that it's oppressive to me... So I would almost call it a tyranny after all) :) Me too, that's why I prefer Thyatis and Glantri... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:17:42 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Anondson wrote: > > Then would you consider the Lands of Wallara > to be a nation? If so, then the Lands of Wallara would also fall in to the > non-tyranny category. Actually, the Tortle Tribelands might go... it's the Shire, without Glantrians ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:22:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Caroletti wrote: >> It's somehow the counterpart to the Alphatians blowing off their world, the defining of the character of the two uber-empire starting from the beginning of their history as Empires on Mystara: Alphatia blows up its homeworld because of a stupid magic-philosophic discussion (defining chaos, no respect for ethics when opposed with magic and knowledge, but also with them being sure that they are right), << Don't I remember him objecting to this sort of characterization of that event, though? Minimizing it and doing what he claimed we tried to do with Thyatian Treachery? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that any time this point came up, he's objected to any interpretation of it as having any such implications on Alphatia as a whole. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected, but that's what I recall from previous discussions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Games Mystarans play Beau wrote: > What games are played in Mystara? Do analogues to chess, checkers, Chinese >checkers, Go or mah-jongg get any mentions in canon? Do Mystarans play cards? I would imagine that most nations of the Known World would have their own card games (IMC, the western bank of the river running through Darokin City is loaded with casinos and whatnot - much like Southwark in London had a lot of the less savoury aspects of city life, based on what I've read). Plus, being officially "outisde" Darokin City limits means that everything there is unregulated. :-) Aside from cards, I'd imagine that chess, checkers, and others would be played, too. Any other thoughts? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play > >...and in the final days of Blackmoor, it is believed that a brief >period of perhaps forty years included the play, by some younger members >of Blackmoorian and Thonian society, of a new concept in games which was >based on the writing of tales. LOL! Excellent work there, Kevin! Reminds me of that cartoon which was (I think) in the 1st ed DMG - something about a couple of warriors and wizards sitting around a table, talking to a newcomer. They were explaining that they were placing this new, cool game called "Pensions and Paycheques" (or something like that). Anyone remember that cartoon, or am I just hallucinating? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Scaevola's Photo up on the Web! > >Ok, guys: you have the opportunity of seeing the face of your famous >Captain Scaevola. >The photo is available at this address: > >www.geocities.com/talerio/dankok.gif AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! The horror! The horror! *descends into gibbering insanity* Just kidding! :) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Mystaraspace Mystara wrote: >> Has any accessory ever claimed to have had a model of the Mystaran solar system, even if it wasn't detailed? << The Mystaran solar system is described (briefly) in the old "Gold Box" Immortals set, and is similar to ours (but has a planet where the asteroid belt is, and Mystara has two moons, one of which is invisible). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:55:36 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Pratt Subject: Re: Query on Module X10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/00 1:30:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, anpro@ACCESOCERO.ES writes: > I'm thinking of purchasing a copy of Red Arrow Black Shield, which is > affordable but lacks the gaming counters. I would like to know which use the > counters are: are they for Battlesystem or for some "house tabletop system", > like the one with fleets in GAZ4? Is the module playable with just War > Machine rules, providing stats for the nations which don't have them in > their GAZs and so on??? The counters were for use with the War Machine from the companion set / rules cyclopedia (a condensed version is included with the module) and were essentially just markers for the units listed in the army rosters in the back of the module. The module also includes Battlesystem stats for the assorted armies. The counters had the following printed on them: Unit Name MV BR The above was printed on top of the nation's symbol (i.e. hourglass for Glantri, eagle for Thyatis). In addition to the above units there were counters for the assorted allied expeditionary forces the players could obtain/recruit. There are a also couple of other miscelaneous counters (moderate and serious fatigue, camp markers, and a pair of game week markers - x1 & x10) Hope this helps. -Magesmiley ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:53:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Darokinian/Thyatian MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Are Darokinian and Thyatian Common two different languages, or just two names for the same thing? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:00:21 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Pratt Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/4/00 2:55:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: > Mystaras galaxy is described to some detail in the old Immortals Set(Gold > box). Basically, Mystaras solar system is similar to the RW one, with a > few modifications; > The Asteroid Belt is replaced by a large advanced world called Damocles. > Mercury does not exist. > Beyond Pluto is a another planet called Charon. Hmmm if I recall correctly, the old Immortals set said that Pluto was also missing in addition to Mercury (they were created from the destruction of Damocles). -Magesmiley ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:46:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Anondson wrote: > > Before semantics swamp the discussion, a working definition of state-tyranny > is needed. Apparently, the Stalker seems to use the word "tyranny" to define any form of government he doesn't like (which isn't an especially rare idea, in Italian we use the word "regime" to express this meaning). "Tyranny", by itself, can either be used in its original Greek meaning (that is, the absolute rule of a single man who is not a dynastic king), or to define any oppressive (political) power. In the first case, only the Stalker himself would be able to determine whether a government form is tyranny. In the second, only Almarron during the rule of Don Esteban qualifies, AFAIK. In the third, you will have to define what is "oppressive", and to whom... I mean, the dwarven idea of "punishment" (inactivity or agriculture-related works) may not be too distant from the (mystaran) human idea of normal life. I'm pretty sure that the dwarven and karameikan convicts would be glad to swap place ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play >> They were explaining that they were placing this new, cool game called "Pensions and Paycheques" (or something like that). Anyone remember that cartoon, or am I just hallucinating? << Well, there was such a cartoon, at least ("Papers & Paychecks"). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:44:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Tyrannies of Mystara In-Reply-To: <3A042F4B.C1EBF38@libero.it> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:46 11/4/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: >Eric Anondson wrote: >> >> Before semantics swamp the discussion, a working definition of state-tyranny >> is needed. >"Tyranny", by itself, can either be used in its original Greek meaning >(that is, the absolute rule of a single man who is not a dynastic king), >or to define any oppressive (political) power. > >In the second, only Almarron during the rule of Don Esteban qualifies, >AFAIK. Not the Master of Hule, too? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:57:17 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > Are Darokinian and Thyatian Common two different languages, or just two > names for the same thing? IIRC, Daro (the Darokin language) if a traladaran/antalian mix, different from both Traladaran and Thyatian. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:54:29 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaun Muncy Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/4/00 9:55:47 AM Central Standard Time, au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA writes: > LOL! Excellent work there, Kevin! Reminds me of that cartoon which was (I > think) in the 1st ed DMG - something about a couple of warriors and > wizards sitting around a table, talking to a newcomer. They were > explaining that they were placing this new, cool game called "Pensions and > Paycheques" (or something like that). Anyone remember that cartoon, or am > I just hallucinating? > > Geoff Papers and Paychecks. "It's a great new fantasy role-playing game. We pretend we're workers and students in an industrialized and technological society" - 1st Edition DMG, page 111. I can't believe someone else remembered that. "Chaos rules, so I'm in charge." - Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Ruler of the Lost City; Kobold Tactician; Keeper of the Mystic Sock. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Serraine? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > So, may I ask what the deal is with Serraine? I know it's a gnomish flying > city, but apparently its been taken over by Bargle the Infamous or something? > Would someone be so kind as to elaborate upon this? > > - Brant > Serraine is a flying city which was originally detailed in supplement PC2, Top Ballista (i.e. humour-saturated parody of "Top Gun" and Air Force flight schools.) This same supplement includes rules on the play of Gnomes, Nagpa (mentioned by someone else, too), Sphinxes, etc. With regards to Bargle the Infamous, one must bear in mind that PC2 was set in the year 1000 After the Crowning of the first Emperor of Thyatis, which would place it in the same period as the Gazetteer series. Therefore, the events concerning Bargle the Infamous apply only after the Wrath of the Immortals, and only several years thereafter at that. Someone correct me if I am wrong about this, but the AC 1011 Poor Wizard's Almanac (i.e. Volume II) mentioned some incidents in which Serraine had to land for repairs, modifications, etc. in a few remote portions of the Known World. These landings pre-dated the events which concern Bargle. Perhaps TSR will release PC2 as an online product, perhaps even for free? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:58:12 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001104075342.007a5a40@10.1.1.1>; from lby3@LBY3.COM on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 07:53:42AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 07:53:42AM -0800, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > Are Darokinian and Thyatian Common two different languages, or > just two names for the same thing? IMC they are the same, it's just so much easier that way :) Officially, I have no idea... gordon, as helpful as ever :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:12:32 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Thyatis Character Reference website opens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Thyatis Character Reference team is glad to announce that the TCR Website is now open. The site features a description of many of the important Thyatians of the present (just before the Crown War), and the past. It also includes a description of Thyatian religion and politics, plus the famous History of Thyatis by James Ruhland & Giulio Caroletti, from the Tome of Mystara. In the future, the TCR aims to describe all Thyatian dominion rulers, plus the most important senators, clergymen and heroes, as well as many aspects of the Thyatian society. We hope you will enjoy our attempt at providing a complete resource for the Empire of Thyatis, and we are waiting your comments. If you wish to contribute to the project, feel free to contact one of the current team members, that is James, Giulio, and myself. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:29:01 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > >"Tyranny", by itself, can either be used in its original Greek meaning > >(that is, the absolute rule of a single man who is not a dynastic king), > >or to define any oppressive (political) power. > > > >In the second, only Almarron during the rule of Don Esteban qualifies, > >AFAIK. > > Not the Master of Hule, too? No, he is supposed to be Hosadus, the great hero sponsored by Bozdogan... a theocracy/hagiarchy does not qualify as "tyranny" in this (restrictive) sense. It does in the other two, I suppose. (the "second" in the text refers to the original meaning, the "first" being whatever the Stalker thinks to be tyranny, as he initiated the discussion). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:35:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Thyatis Character Reference website opens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you wish to contribute to the project, feel free to contact one of > the current team members, that is James, Giulio, and myself. > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta Warning: If you are an Alphatian, the content of this site could prove dangerous to all of your senses. Tests conducted on 100 Alphatian wizards have proved that reading an article written by James leads to temporarily loss of reason. It also causes most wizards to babble aimlessely while trying to cast spells. A strange countereffect, appeared in 13,4% of the subjects, is respiratory problems. Only in two cases has the reading resulted in hallucinations. One of the wizards had to be put in isolation and was sent to Blackheart, to Prof. Cthuludrew, for further studies, as he was babbling something like "Ghakaldldls,alaneeqoeqopqe!kjaefbkl" continuously, spelling all of the letters one by one. Reading Giulio's work has only in 43% of the subjects resulted in light euphoria, and 11% of the times in a state of cathatonia. No tests have been made with Giampaolo's work, so even non-Alphatians are warned. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:40:24 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Thyatis Character Reference website opens In-Reply-To: <3A04732B.54EFEDDD@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 09:35:55PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 09:35:55PM +0100, Caroletti wrote: > as he was babbling something like "Ghakaldldls,alaneeqoeqopqe!kjaefbkl" > continuously, spelling all of the letters one by one. The reach of the Outer Beings is far indeed... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:11:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > The Mystaran solar system is described (briefly) in the old "Gold Box" > Immortals set, and is similar to ours (but has a planet where the asteroid > belt is, and Mystara has two moons, one of which is invisible). Just out of curiosity, What's the use of an invisible moon? -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Eric Anondson wrote: > Mystara'a solar system. Especially since just found that the nation of The Alphatian homeworld is not in the prime plane - Old Alphatia is actually an outer plane connected to the basic home-plane of energy Immortals. The only "canon" reference to the solar system is given in the God Box Immortal's set, which implies that the game world == Earth millions of yers ago. The Solar system has the same basic makeup with the inclusion of Damocles - the planet between Mars and Jupiter, and the lack of Pluto and Mercury (As they are described as parts of Damocles after it exploded). Other than that, there is no "canon" reference to "Mystaraspace", since that term is up to interpretation anyway. Many purists discount phlogiston travel in Mystara's prime plane, prefering voidships. It would go without saying that AD&D2 Mystara should be compatible with Spelljammer, but that is also up to the individual DM, since nothing was ever said. I personally prefer to think of Mystara existing in some "alternate reality" prime plane, which holds fast to the oD&D space rules, but others may think differently. In short, It is what you want to make of it :) Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:50:17 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <3A048990.C78A3536@teleport.com>; from xenya@TELEPORT.COM on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:11:28PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:11:28PM -0800, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > Evil Genius wrote: > > > > The Mystaran solar system is described (briefly) in the old "Gold Box" > > Immortals set, and is similar to ours (but has a planet where the asteroid > > belt is, and Mystara has two moons, one of which is invisible). > > Just out of curiosity, > > What's the use of an invisible moon? IMC, creatures with infravision can see the invisible moon, so to them it's an important part of the night sky. Also the crossing of the Invisible moon in front of the normal one causes the Night of the Red Moon in Glantri (and elsewhere, but the interactions with the radiance are what cause the straneg magical effects). Other than that, can't think of a use :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:16:12 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > It would go without saying that AD&D2 Mystara should be compatible with > Spelljammer, but that is also up to the individual DM, since nothing was > ever said. I personally prefer to think of Mystara existing in some > "alternate reality" prime plane, which holds fast to the oD&D space rules, > but others may think differently. I tend to view each sphere as being something of an alternate "prime plane" anyway, so Spelljamming into one isn't a problem. As for rules...well, physical constants often differ between crystal spheres (Greyspace is colder than Realmspace, for example). This is clearly a more drastic difference... :-) (Yes, I prefer the Known World in OD&D rules also). -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:58:33 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <3A048990.C78A3536@teleport.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:11 11/4/00 -0800, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: >Evil Genius wrote: >> >> The Mystaran solar system is described (briefly) in the old "Gold Box" >> Immortals set, and is similar to ours (but has a planet where the asteroid >> belt is, and Mystara has two moons, one of which is invisible). > >Just out of curiosity, > >What's the use of an invisible moon? To set up the Princess Ark getting a cloaking device from the Rakasta. No, really. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:28:35 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Re: Scaevola's Photo up on the Web! Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Sat, 04 November 2000, Caroletti ha scritto: > > Ok, guys: you have the opportunity of seeing the face of your famous > Captain Scaevola. Mine copliments, It's really chilling.... AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <3A048990.C78A3536@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > > What's the use of an invisible moon? Plot point, probably :) Bruce Heard, i beleive, invented it for the Princess Ark stories. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:48:52 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Gazetters Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Someone of you knows where to find all the Gazetters in Italy? AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:26:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:00:02 Evil Genius wrote: (snip) > >I wonder if you were to write a history of the Alphatian Empire whether the Alphatians would behave anywhere near as badly as we have many of the Thyatian Emperors behaving. My guess is no. I'm not sure you'd even have the Kerothar Emperors (notorious, IMO, as not such a good line of Emperors) behaving as badly, given your subsiquent commentary on other aspects of our history and your expressed feeling that it portrays the Alphatia of the Kerothar Era in too harsh a light. > Given what I said about the Kerothar dynasty, I doubt you still think this. (snip) > >>> particularly with Alphas VI (the subsequent redeemer-emperor of Alphatia) plotting just as much and speculating on the Alphatian throne... >>Plotting, yes. But of the three, which is most sympathetic? >> > >>> He's still a pretty awful person, though. << > >Ahh - that might be the problem. For one thing, I don't think he comes off as "awful" at all (not Good in Alignment, perhaps, but not Evil - I'd say Lawful Neutral). But your point of irritation *really* is that Alphas VI, the Alphatian, doesn't come off as a completely noble and totally above board person in our version. > Well, I already described how I saw Alphas VI, so you know this isn't the case... Unless you choose not to believe me. >>> First, if he's really associated that much with Zendrolion and, especially, Lucinius, would the Alphatians have made him emperor? << > >They don't know the full details of his involvement (not by a long shot). You're arguing that they do, I might suspect (given the later accusations you direct at me in your reply, I think it's ok to suspect) has to do less with the merits of your points and more with the fact that you just don't like how Alphas VI comes across. > I described why I didn't like your version of him. > Which is odd, because he's portrayed as a concientious guy wanting the best for his (obviously decaying) society - being willing to resort to drastic measures to do so, to be sure (and that's not "pure" and always "nice", but neither is he - but he *is* concientious in our version). > Well, yes, but I didn't agree with the rest of his descriptions in your version. You asked for criticism, and I said what I thought... >>> I'd think they'd accuse him of having created the whole mess by 'teaching those barbarians our magic' << > >I thought it was your position that the Alphatians embraced anyone who could learn magic, and that one of the positive things the Alphatians did (and why you think their harshly despotic and cruel rule over Thyatis wasn't so bad) was their willingness, as a people, to teach anyone who could learn it magic. Now you're taking the oposite position. Interesting. . . > You're reading too much into this. I'm just saying that the Alphers are too arrogant to accept that Lucinius, a 'barbarian wizard', is a better wizard then they are, and they're certainly not prepared to admit that they're losing because they're far too influenced by Zzonga. They won't admit that, but it is the truth... so they'll need to find a scapegoat. The obvious choice IMHO would be wizards like those who taught Lucinius. I may hold the view of Alphatians you describe here, but it doesn't mean that I think they're willing to admit that their 'barbarian' pupils will be better wizards than they are themselves! (snip) > ><< What are the odds that he'd teach Lucinius, and then the Grand Council would choose him, of all people, as the next emperor? << > >It's a plotline/storyline, and one of those interesting historical quirks. Odds? Screw the odds; the odds make for uninteresting stuff "some random, faceless guy becomes Emperor Alphas VI after Kerothar IV is deposed". And history often (not always, but sometimes) has strange and unusual coincidences; indeed, "truth is stranger than fiction". > >Well, this *is* fiction, and it's interesting this way. I'm opposed to makeing it bland. > All I can say is that it seems like a suspicious coincidence to me from a gamer's point of view. >>> Third, all this scheming doesn't seem quite Alphatian somehow - it's doesn't seem quite 'chaotic' enough to me, and thus a little OOC for Alphatia. << > >But not for Alphas VI, who doesn't come off in the History as the Alphatians Know It as all that chaotic a person (or do you think *all* Alphatian Wizards are Chaotic? If you want to take that position, then fine - but I'll expect you to keep it consistantly). Alphas VI comes off as the most "Lawful" Alphatian of all, with his imposition of laws and harsh methods to restore order and impose duty among those who have no innate sense of duty. Alphas VI "chaotic"? I don't think so, not in the Player's Guide to Alphatia description of what he does. >Anyhow, I thought it was your position that the Alphatian wizards were a varied lot, and though the vast majority were chaotic, and chaotic was the nature of the Alphatian Empire, but that not *all* Alphatian wizards are the same, some aren't like that. I agreed with that opinion when you held it, seeing (for example) Tylion IV/"Terari" as one such example (to whom I'd mention his grandaughter, Eldrethila, as far as an example of a Lawful Alphatian Wizard, among other possible examples. . .including Alphas VI). > I maintain my position, but I don't think it likely that the council of wizards would choose an emperor so unlike themselves either. (snip) >>> I don't really mind that so much - I just don't like his association with Lucinius because it makes all other wizards in Alphatia seem so inactive. If he was really in Thyatis, then I don't think they'd bring him in to be emperor. << > >Why not? "he knows the enemy, he knows why we're losing, he makes good arguments about what's wrong with the Empire these days, especially the Kerothars, perhaps he can fix what's wrong". > Because "he's one of those who already lost Thyatis to the enemy... He's already proven that he's a loser". He might also be under suspicion for having helped his former apprentice. He *does* know the enemy, but that would make him a advisor to the emperor, I think - nothing more. >>> He created a council of wizards that could veto his decisions? << > >How many vetos did the Council of Wizards use to prevent the excesses of the Kerothar's? "Not until it was almost too late and drastic measures were needed to save the Empire" is the answer to that question. > >>> He made all spellcasters aristocrats? << > >Um, I don't want to sound rude here, but try and pay attention to details: the history says he instituted a military despotism rather than a magical one. > I'm just trying to say that Zendrolion's empire was not a complete copy of Alphatia in a lot of ways. Thus I don't see why Alphatia should even be mentioned here. >>> I've tried very hard to not see that comment as a jab against Alphatia, and I've failed! << > >Well, I don't see you complaining about how often the Thyatians *are* portrayed in our history as engaging in nefarious, wicked scheming on their own - just in the instance when Alphatia is mentioned. Well, hate to brake it to you, but Alphatia, especially circa AY 1000/AC 0 Alphatia, wasn't such a nice place; if you get the impression from the "canon" history that Alphatia as of AY 1000/AC 0 was infused with a benign spirit, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. > No, it wasn't a nice place, but I don't agree that Alphatia must be to blame if Zendrolion's Thyatis was not a good place. >> It isn't until Valentia comes along that the Thyatians develop an Imperial Model of their own. You don't have to like it, but that's just factually the case. >> >>> I'm not denying that part. That's true. << > >Well, there you go. That's, in effect, what is said in our history. > >> If you think the Kerothar Emperors ruled better or more benignly, then I think you're missing a lot. >> >>> And I would agree, but I didn't think that - they were harsh, arrogant, and racist, which is why Aasla the wizardess moved away and founded her own city. << > >Right; well, saying Zendrolion (a guy you see as a very nasty fellow) emulating Alphatian Emperors who you would agree were not the most positive examples of Alphatian governance doesn't reflect well on Alphatia *or* Thyatis, but is an apt comparison - funny thing being, Alphatia gets a concientious Emperor at the same time that Thyatis gets a self-serving one. I can see the irony, can't anyone else? > Yes, but that was not what I was commenting on. >>> I just don't like the way that part is worded, because it sounds to me as if Alphatia must be to blame if Thyatis is not a nice place. << > >Well, I'm not sure how you can read our *entire* history and be left with only that impression. Because most of the nasty scheming comes *after* Valentia develops a "uniquely Thyatian Imperial Model", and without any Alphatian involvement at all (well, with some; the times the Alphatians get screwed over by treacherous Thyatians such as Valeria II) - I'm not going to purge our version of things that cast Alphatia in a negative light, anymore than the DotE History of Alphatia is purged of things that cast Thyatis and Thyatians in a negative light. > Actually I think that makes the comment worse, because now it almost sounds like Alphatia is to blame when things are bad and oppressive in Thyatis (no blame for Thyatis itself - they don't know any better), but when things get better, Thyatis gets to take all the credit itself... That's how I read it anyway. (snip) > >>> Maybe so. Still, it's the impression I get at times. Since you like Thyatis, that's fine - focus on the parts you like and play on them. << > >I'm not sure you can read through our entire History of Thyatis and accurately say that we only focused on the likable parts of Thyatis. > Did I claim that was the case? I said I thought your Lucinius/Zendrolion bit put Thyatis in a better light, but I said nothing about the rest. >But I think it's evident in your response, and this may sound like a harsh asessment, but I feel it's warranted given the nature of your criticisms of our version (which have focused almost entirely on areas where it portrays Alphatia in a less than positive light, or where you infer that it *possibly* *might* cast Alphatia in a more negative light - as with your criticisms of our original Lucinius & Zendrolion twist, believing that it somehow made Thyatis look better {still and will always be puzzled by this one} and somehow made Alphatia look worse {no evidence for that conclusion, so I'm not even puzzled by it. It's just not the case}), that you're not prepaired to be nearly as candid about certain aspects and certain times in Alphatian history (and AY 1000/AC 0 was probably the darkest period as far as the behavior of the Alphatians went. That's just not seriously disputable). > The comment about Alphatia being to blame for Zendrolion's rule is the only comment I've made on Alphatia here. The rest has nothing to do with Alphatia, because, for once, we're not discussing Alphatia, but Thyatis. I think the version of Zendrolion and Lucinius put Thyatis in a slightly more positive light, but I don't think it said anything about Alphatia at all. Even my comments about Alphas VI had nothing to do with pro-Alphatian attitudes - I just happened not to agree with the way you characterized him. That's all there was to it. As for my criticism of Zendrolion and Lucinius, yes I thought Thyatis looked a little better, but it wasn't the major point - the major point was that I just didn't like it. The decline of Alphatia and the rise of Thyatis is a pretty important part of Mystaran history, and Lucinius, Zendrolion, and Alphas VI are thus very important historical characters, and changing them has a rather huge impact on Mystara I think, so I'd prefer leaving them alone. Adding things is another matter, though... I wouldn't mind, for example, if we turned Kerothar IV into a lich, because IIRC canon never says what happens to him once he's deposed. Thus having him later become a lich and then return, claiming to be "Kerothar IV - true Emperor of Alphatia" is definitely possible. The fates of Lucinius and Zendrolion are established in canon, however, and they're so important, that I'll use that version no matter what. If you firmly believe that your version is better, though, then you should just stand by it - why should you change *your* story (which I assume you find better than the original) just because I didn't care for it? I'm just one person here, and why should you, or anyone else who liked your version, care if I dislike this? If people don't like it, they can always stick with the original, as I planned to do. Now you changed it, though, so... >>> But please respect that I like Alphatia and would rather that people didn't try to give the impression that this is what Alphatia is like. << > >This is what Alphatia in AY 500 - AY 1000 was like; that's "canon" history. "now" is a thousand years later. People tend to act as if things are always static. > Alphatia was not a nice place, but that doesn't mean that it's automatically to blame for the society Zendrolion turned Thyatis into. >But why would you emphasize, as you sometimes do, the impact of, say, Mylertendal on Alphatian society - or even Alphas VI - if things were as good then as you think they are in the "present"? You seem to be implying that you admit that nothing has changed one way or another in the intervening period. That would be bizzare, because as you yourself agreed, the Kerothar rulers wern't such a swell bunch. So if nothing changed at all, then. . . > When did Alphatia become the subject of this discussion? >Now, my point has been that folks like Mylertendal (especially) didn't have such a sweepingly positive impact on Alphatian behavior as is sometimes argued (remember, the inhabitants of the Alatian Islands were uprooted after the spread of Mylertendal's philosphy - and, indeed, as a consiquence of it, when an Emperor decided to use them for a beautification project. Had the inhabitants recently revolted or something? They don't seem to have; they were just in the way of his planned beautification of the isles, so they had to go. The kind of arbitrary behavior they had left Alphatia proper to escape, but apparently they didn't go far enough to be out of reach of this kind of thing). But I don't argue there has been no change between the Alphatia of the late Kerothar Era and modern Alphatia. And usually you argue that there has been more change than I think there has been, not less, and more positive change for the better (not less) in recent centuries. Now you seem to be arguing > that there has been almost no change, and a comment on the Kerothar era that is less than flattering - well, I have to ask why your Stalker is a "reformist" Alphatian if things in modern Alphatia are good, and your position seems that there was no change in things during the preceeding thousand years. What would there be to reform? And if things are changeless, what would the prospects for reform be, anyhow, even if they needed changing? > Wow! My three lines you quoted above merely asked people (not just you) to accept that I like Alphatia and that I don't appreciate it when I feel that people are trying to make it more oppressive than I think it is. You got all this from those three lines? >>Now if I get your point correctly, I definately think you're confused. If you've concluded that we said "Hey! Lucinius was trained by the Alphatians, so he must be evil!" you're just absolutely mistaken. < > >>> I didn't think that, no. << > >That is, however, exactly what you are implying when you claim that if Lucinius is portrayed as less than heroic it somehow reflects badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis and somehow lends credence to the "he went mad because of Alphatian magics" theory, and when you accuse us of *trying* to do that deliberately. > I didn't mention Alphatia in that connection at all, nor did I intend to. If you got that impression, then you either misunderstood or I inadvertently mislead you into thinking so. (snip) > >What I will adamantly assert is that we were NOT trying to remove his treachery, and I actually strongly resent that characterization, because throughout this discussion in my replies to every participant it should have become VERY clear by now that our INTENTION was the opposite - having both of them be more vile in certain respects (I'd have argued them as Lawful Evil-to-Neutral Evil). The focus of these discussions has been my disagreement with those who think we made them come off as better people - either of them (inarguably Lucinius comes off as a worse persion; the dispute was over whether Zendrolion is somehow made more sympathetic or not, and in your case whether making Lucinius a worse person somehow, in some strange manner, reflects badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis). Therefore, to accuse me of *trying* to wipe away Zendrolion's villany is a bit much, a meritless accusation. One can (as we have) debate whether that was the *effect* or not, but to accuse me of having that *intent* is just - well, I won't get angry about it I guess. > Okay. I accept that. I just wondered at one point, and I won't find out until I ask you. I did and now I know better. (snip) > >>> Not all good things in Mystara are Alphatian IMHO << > >I have to say that when you dispute anything that paints Alphatia in a less than fully flattering light (as you have with these criticism of our history), while simoultaniously refusing to aknowlege the parts in it where other countries than Alphatia (I.E. Thyatis) are portrayed less than flattering, and indeed accusing us of doing things we didn't do (remove treachery from the Thyatians in our history) and of intentions we didn't have (and manifestly didn't have, as can be seen in the parts of this topic/discussion that preceeded your accusation, wherin I took issue with the belief that we made Zendrolion seem better, and my obvious opinion was that we didn't), then I do have to wonder whether it is the case that - well, whatever. > I didn't discuss Alphatia at all this time beyond that one comment in your article which I quoted. Did you really think I made accusations? I wondered about intent, sure... I think that's reasonable to a point when you ask for criticism, though if you feel I stepped beyond that point, then I apologize. I wondered, so I asked and found out... >But these accusations, on the other hand, I think is going too far, and your sole concern seemingly being whether we portrayed AY 500 - AY 100 Alphatia in a light you don't find flattering; well, as a "reformist" Alphatian, who's character sees much to reform in "today's" Alphatia, I wouldn't *think* you'd *admire* the Alphatia of that era! > I didn't mean to discuss Alphatia here at all. There would be no point because we're discussing your article, which was about Thyatis. How could I claim you painted a bad picture of Alphatia in that era, when Alphatia was never really the focus of your article? There was one comment I didn't care for, and I said so. The rest was mostly a matter of personal preference for certain characters and speculation about why they were changed. That's all. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:48:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001104075342.007a5a40@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 2000/11/04, 07:53 -0800, you wrote: > Are Darokinian and Thyatian Common two different languages, or > just two >names for the same thing? IMC they are different dialects of the same language, in the same way that "Standard English" (British) and American English are different. Also, the Thyatian used in Karameikos is another dialect, different from both "Standard Thyatian" and Darokinian Thyatian as Canadian English is from American and British English. Thus all are more or less intelligible to each other, except for the occasional terminology (i.e, truck vs. lory, pants vs. trousers, etc.) and common idioms. I expect Karameikan Thyatian to have borrowed a number of words and phrases from Traladaran (like the Amerindian and French influence on Canadian English), while Darokinian Thyatian has a lot of everything in it, ranging from Elvish, to Ylari, to Flaemish, etc. Of course, that's just IMC. I'm not sure about what it says, one way or the other, in the official sources Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:05:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Almanacs in PDF? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Has anyone created PDF-format conversions of the internet-created Almanacs Of Mystara? If so, does anyone know where these PDF's are available? Same for any of the Savage Coast volumes or Orc's Head materials. Such files would seem to be an incomparable aid where widespread use of the Almanacs and Savage Coast / Orc's Head tomes. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:09:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:38:41 Caroletti wrote: >Evil Genius wrote: > >> Jens wrote: >> >> now all the bad things they did were done to non-Thyatians and there is little or no horrible treachery toward each other << >> >> Except throughout the entire litany of our history where they're deposing and murdering each other, plotting and scheming against each other, yes. I don't know how you can read our version of The History of Thyatis and come away with the impression that there is no horrible treachery towards each other done by the Thyatians in it. >> >> I do have to say that I've had one person criticising that he thinks there is too much conflict among the Thyatians themselves, and now you criticising that there is little or none at all, which makes me suspect we hit a good balance overall between the two. > >I think that the Stalker's point is not to say that there is no treachery overall in >Thyatian history. The thing he likes is the fact that the Empire was BORN on >treachery, and somehow this cast a stain on the Thyatian people, a sort of >curse, after which Thyatians have become that treacherous people they are. > Exactly. You said I much better than I did. >When he says that he didn't like the fact that the Thyatian treachery was removed, >he didn't mention Thyatian treachery throughout history, but this foundation of >Thyatian history that appeals to more than one gamer on the list. This treachery >that founds an Empire, this treachery of brother against brother. > Yes, which is why I called it 'defining' - to me this part of history defines some unfortunate traits in Thyatis... I do believe James got my point now, though. >It's somehow the counterpart to the Alphatians blowing off their world, the >defining of the character of the two uber-empire starting from the beginning of >their history as Empires on Mystara: Alphatia blows up its homeworld because >of a stupid magic-philosophic discussion (defining chaos, no respect for ethics >when opposed with magic and knowledge, but also with them being sure that >they are right), Thyatis is born as an Empire from the worst treachery that can >be: a friend who kills a trusting friend (plus the other two kings) just for power. >Still, I don't think the Stalker referred to all Thyatian history: he just liked >this kind of treachery at this point. Well, Stalker, it's up to you to tell us who >understood what you were meaning...or even tell us we're both wrong. 8-) > You're right about what I meant, yes. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:11:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:22:32 Evil Genius wrote: >Caroletti wrote: >>> It's somehow the counterpart to the Alphatians blowing off their world, the defining of the character of the two uber-empire starting from the beginning of their history as Empires on Mystara: Alphatia blows up its homeworld because of a stupid magic-philosophic discussion (defining chaos, no respect for ethics when opposed with magic and knowledge, but also with them being sure that >they are right), << > >Don't I remember him objecting to this sort of characterization of that event, though? Minimizing it and doing what he claimed we tried to do with Thyatian Treachery? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that any time this point came up, he's objected to any interpretation of it as having any such implications on Alphatia as a whole. > >If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected, but that's what I recall from previous discussions. > I can't say that this sounds familiar to me, but I'm not dismissing the possibility... When would this have been? - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:54:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Mystaraspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:50:17 Gordon McCormick wrote: >On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:11:28PM -0800, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: >> Evil Genius wrote: >> > >> > The Mystaran solar system is described (briefly) in the old "Gold Box" >> > Immortals set, and is similar to ours (but has a planet where the asteroid >> > belt is, and Mystara has two moons, one of which is invisible). >> >> Just out of curiosity, >> >> What's the use of an invisible moon? > >IMC, creatures with infravision can see the invisible moon, so >to them it's an important part of the night sky. Also the crossing >of the Invisible moon in front of the normal one causes the Night >of the Red Moon in Glantri (and elsewhere, but the interactions with >the radiance are what cause the straneg magical effects). > >Other than that, can't think of a use :) > I recall a rather amusing one from my campaign... We were playing X13: Crown of Ancient Glory, when we came across some rather bizarre stats for the rise and fall of the tide (sorry, but I can't give the pricise reference). My players argued that this was illogical because the tide would always be the same, yet I remembered the second moon (though I didn't mention it to the players) and stood by what the book said! They laughed at this, and one even commented that, oh, there was a second moon, only it was invisible! It was all I could do to bite my lip and refrain from laughing. Sometimes being a DM is a lot harder than most people appreciate! (I've had a good laugh about that one for years, so it's good to finally be able to share it with someone) :) BTW, if people are really interested in Mystaraspace (I prefer to call it simply "The Void"), you might want to check out John Calvin's website at It's not official by any means, but I thought there was some good stuff there... Hope my mail is in the post now, John ;) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 04:00:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:29:01 Agathokles wrote: >Beau Yarbrough wrote: >> >> >"Tyranny", by itself, can either be used in its original Greek meaning >> >(that is, the absolute rule of a single man who is not a dynastic king), >> >or to define any oppressive (political) power. >> > >> >In the second, only Almarron during the rule of Don Esteban qualifies, >> >AFAIK. >> >> Not the Master of Hule, too? > >No, he is supposed to be Hosadus, the great hero sponsored by >Bozdogan... a theocracy/hagiarchy does not qualify as "tyranny" in this >(restrictive) sense. It does in the other two, I suppose. (the "second" >in the text refers to the original meaning, the "first" being whatever >the Stalker thinks to be tyranny, as he initiated the discussion). >-- > Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... I just wanted to say that it wasn't a big deal if we declared Alphatia a tyranny, because many other Mystaran nations would be too, and then give a few examples. However, using 'tyranny for whatever I don't like' would not be entirely accurate, though you may be right about Alphatia, because while I like the empire, I don't really like the government-structure so much. Still, the shires aren't a tyranny in my book, though I still do like the place! - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed >>> I'd think they'd accuse him of having created the whole mess by 'teaching those barbarians our magic' > >> The obvious choice IMHO would be wizards like those who taught Lucinius. << No, the obvious choice would be whoever made Lucinius Governor (and that wasn't Alphas VI) and gave him the tools to rebel. Probably no one will know who taught Lucinius, and Alphas VI isn't going around braging about it. Whether people will stop to wonder who it was who taught Lucinius magic in the first place in the middle of all this disorder is questionable, especially if somone (Alphas VI) throws them the person who appointed Lucinius as Governor as a scapegoat for them to focus on. >> All I can say is that it seems like a suspicious coincidence to me from a gamer's point of view. << Gaming life is full of suspicious coincidences, especially when cabals of plotters are pulling the strings. >> I maintain my position, but I don't think it likely that the council of wizards would choose an emperor so unlike themselves either. << So then you're saying that the description of Alphas VI in the Player's Guide to Alphatia is really wrong, he wasn't like that, because the Grand Council of the time picked someone akin to themselves (not a master of magic, but had a big treasury, and indifferent at best to what's going on around them). No, I don't see that. What I see is they were shocked out of their complacency and picked someone *unlike* Keothar IV, someone who could do the job (someone *unlike* them). They probably didn't know exactly what they were getting (you seem to think that Alphas VI was anouncing to them ahead of time that he was going to impose strict rules on Wizards who performed their duties while under the influence of Zzonga and the like. I doubt he gave them all the details ahead of time). As for the machievelian plotting aspect, that I don't think *is* unlike them - high level wizards, even good ones, being notorious as behind-the-scenes manipulators of events. So you can't be refering to that aspect (the aspect we created) when you're saying you don't think they'd pick someone so unlike themselves - you have to be refering to the aspects of Alphas VI's character which were already implied in "canon". And yet we already know they picked someone like him, because there it is. >> Because "he's one of those who already lost Thyatis to the enemy... He's already proven that he's a loser". << Nope; he had nothing to do with administering Thyatis whatsoever. That's in our history. Check it out. >> Did I claim that was the case? << You said you thought we were trying to remove treachery from being an aspect of the Thyatian character. >> The comment about Alphatia being to blame for Zendrolion's rule is the only comment I've made on Alphatia here. << Then what's all the complaining about Alphas VI doing in here? And that stuff earlier where you were saying you felt that having Lucinius be evil somehow reflected badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis? What was up with that? >> The rest has nothing to do with Alphatia, because, for once, we're not discussing Alphatia, but Thyatis. << Again, then what's all the complaining about Alphas VI doing in here? And all the discussion about how things make Alphatia look? >> I think the version of Zendrolion and Lucinius put Thyatis in a slightly more positive light, but I don't think it said anything about Alphatia at all. << Not true - you said it made Alphatia look bad because it gave credence to the rumors about "evil Alphatian magic". >> The decline of Alphatia and the rise of Thyatis is a pretty important part of Mystaran history, and Lucinius, Zendrolion, and Alphas VI are thus very important historical characters, and changing them has a rather huge impact on Mystara I think, so I'd prefer leaving them alone. << I changed Lucinius, but changed him back due to all this controvercy. I didn't change either of the others. >> Adding things is another matter, though... I wouldn't mind, for example, if we turned Kerothar IV into a lich, because IIRC canon never says what happens to him once he's deposed. << Right; and canon never says where Alphas VI came from or how he managed to be the one out of a thousand (or one out of however many wizards overall - they didn't have to apoint a current member of the Great Council) to become Emperor. Canon doesn't explain how he rose to power, how he managed to be the one who got things to fall his way so he would become Emperor. I provide an explaination. >> Thus having him later become a lich and then return, claiming to be "Kerothar IV - true Emperor of Alphatia" is definitely possible. << Sure, that sounds cool, actually. Someone should run with that idea (hint). >> If you firmly believe that your version is better, though, then you should just stand by it - why should you change *your* story (which I assume you find better than the original) just because I didn't care for it? I'm just one person here, << You're not the only person who disliked the version of Lucinius I had, and I'm not strongly bonded to it enough to hold it if it's widely disliked. So I've already changed it back to the "canon" version. I can achieve the "present era" outcome I'm interested in either way (though I will have some tricky explaining to do for some aspects of it, but that's fine. It'll take some thought to work out the kinks, but in some ways it might be more interesting, I'll have to see when I've come up with the explainations.) >> When did Alphatia become the subject of this discussion? << I donno; you were the first one who introduced Alphatia into this, with your concern over how things impact perceptions of Alphatia. So you tell me how it became the subject of this discussion. Your points seemed to revolve around how aspects of it (the Lucinius thing, the Alphas VI thing, the Imperial model thing) affected Alphatia, rather than addressing Thyatis. So those were the points I responded to, since they were the points you raised in your concerns. I'd be happy to talk about aspects of Thyatian history and how it affects Thyatis, but I'm responding to your points. >>That is, however, exactly what you are implying when you claim that if Lucinius is portrayed as less than heroic it somehow reflects badly on Alphatia and not Thyatis and somehow lends credence to the "he went mad because of Alphatian magics" theory, and when you accuse us of *trying* to do that deliberately. > >> I didn't mention Alphatia in that connection at all, nor did I intend to. If you got that impression, then you either misunderstood or I inadvertently mislead you into thinking so. << You wrote: "Now, I wouldn't say that this makes Zendrolion much 'better', but it does corrupt Lucinius, which IMHO makes Thyatis look better. Why? Well, there are a few things to consider here... Lucinius was trained as an Alphatian wizard! If he's part of this 'conspiracy' then assassinating him becomes much more justified." And in your next reply you wrote: "In your version he was a very bad person. Thus, killing him makes it more in line with the 'propaganda' version where he goes mad from Alphatian magics, and his asssassination therefore more justified (even if it's not really what happened)." Again, you wrote: "Lucinius was trained as an Alphatian wizard!" And seemed to consider this a major, telling point (thus the exclamation point) in why you thought having him be bad wasn't a good idea. I didn't mention the "mad from Alphatian magics" thing till you had introduced it. >> Okay. I accept that. I just wondered at one point, and I won't find out until I ask you. I did and now I know better. << Ok. >> I didn't discuss Alphatia at all this time beyond that one comment in your article which I quoted. Did you really think I made accusations? << You said you thought we were trying to do this and trying to do that. You wrote: "Well, I do wonder because it seems to me like you're trying to remove Zendrolion's horrifying treachery..." And you wrote: "It's more like I wonder if you're trying to remove the traits of 'treachery' that canon establishes in Thyatis, because IMHO those were always founded by Zendrolion's ghastly actions." >> I wondered about intent, sure... I think that's reasonable to a point when you ask for criticism, though if you feel I stepped beyond that point, then I apologize. << I think you did. It's one thing to say what you think the effect is and point out why (and at least one of the points you made I found to be a good point, I didn't discuss it much because I simply agreed it was a valid point, writing: "Well, ok; I take that point and accept it as vaild; I have changed it back to the "canon" version, and that's what happens now." It's one thing, a positive thing, to bring up points that you don't think we considered and we can discuss those and I might come to say "that's a good point", but it's another thing to say we tried to do something (an accusation) when I don't think anyone could fairly read our history and conclude that we tried to remove treachery from Thyatis. Indeed, if you'll go over my earlier mails, you'll see that my point, one of them, for having Lucinius be treacherous too is that, in effect, I don't see the treachery of one guy (Zendrolion) as saying as much about a society as it is given weight (if one of a single Darokinian King is a treacherous userper, does that make Darokin especially treacherous overall?), especially when a noble liberator figure (the true founder of Thyatian, Ochalean, and Pearl Islander freedom) is a good fellow counterbalancing the evilness of one of the guys involved in the struggle for freedom - but if *both* Lucinius *and* Zendrolion were treacherous from! ! the get go, then my point was *that* says more about the nature of the whole thing (the entire struggle was from the start a treacherous enterprise, aimed at gaining power for Thyatis and Thyatians. Now it's back to just being the treachery of one man -Zendrolion. Should a whole society pay for that one man's treachery for a milenium plus? Especially when he's bracketed historically by a "good" {or at least not exceptionally bad} Lucinius on the one hand and a "good"/Lawful Valentia on the other hand? That seems almost unfair. But if Lucinius was also a treacherous schemer right from the start, then. . .) Anyhow, that was my point. I didn't explain it at that length, but if you'll read my earlier mails in this discussion, you'll see that was my opinion. Now, others have disagreed and raised valid points about how it affects both the character of Lucinius & the character of Zendrolion to change the canon version, and why they prefer the canon version. I see those points - though I still don't see it as reasonable for the entire society to pay for Zendrolion's sins for over a milenium, especially since the blood of Lucinius and the "civic atonement" (Citizenship Proclamation) of Valentia are mitigatory. But that's an entirely different argument. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:47:48 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Jens wrote: >> I can't say that this sounds familiar to me, but I'm not dismissing the possibility... When would this have been? << Earlier this year; either this summer some time, or in late winter/early spring, when the history of Alphatia was being discussed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:54:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara Stalker wrote: >> Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... << Don't worry about it. Be happy, actually. Some of the best discussions on the list start "by accident" as people go off on tangents. At least this gets to discussing some other countries (we'll see) than the ones we've been talking about almost exclusively. I've explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are tyrants. Anyone want to take up the challenge and vindicate them? I've also explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are the same person* (another bit of evidence: we never see them in the same room). Anyone want to refute that? *Though perhaps at different stages in his life-cycle. Ericall is early-Stefan. Does that mean late-Stefan is late-Ericall? Will there be a "Cult of Halav" type cult of personality around Ericall twenty years from now? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Almanacs in PDF? Kevin inscribed: >Has anyone created PDF-format conversions of the internet-created >Almanacs Of Mystara? If so, does anyone know where these PDF's are >available? Afraid not, old bean. I have it in good confidence that some of the chaps have been bantering about just that topic, and that .pdf versions would be absolutely swish with our readership. You can rest assured that once we do it, you'll know about it. Geoff - just returned from gaming in a 1920s campaign, please excuse the language, as I'm trying to get it out of my system (having played the role for a whole evening). :-) -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:43:38 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-04 8:55:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, strawberry@JAMM.COM writes: > Of course, that's just IMC. I'm not sure about what it says, one way or > the other, in the official sources The PWAs present Darokinian and Thyatian as separate languages, but that does seem to be a bit of a stretch to me. Given their national character, it would seem more likely that the people of Darokin would learn the local Common language (Thyatian) rather than invent their own language. If Darokinian has a separate existence, it would seem that it would have to have originated as a dialect of Thyatian that imported a lot of words from other Known World cultures. In that case, Thyatian, Darokinian, Minrothad, Kerendan, and several other Known World languages would have to be so closely related as to admit to a high degree of mutual comprenhension. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:43:36 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: A common prayer among the smaller nations of the Known World... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stolen from "Fiddler on the Roof": A common prayer among religious persons of most of the smaller nations of the Known World region: "May the Immortals bless and keep the two empires... far away from us!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:46:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Tyrannies of Mystara In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:54 11/4/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >I've also explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are the same person* (another bit of evidence: we never see them in the same room). Anyone want to refute that? According to "Chronomancer," the Immortals of Time prevent mortals from mucking about with time travel. What's your reasoning as to how it could happen without Immortal approval? As to whether or not Stephan is a tyrant ... I think he's a generally benevolent one, who walks the thin line between being a boob and being extremely effective, in both cases guided by his ideals. Sort of an M-Jimmy Carter ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:01:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Almanacs in PDF? In-Reply-To: <20001105021803.9DBF28131@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Same for any of the Savage Coast volumes or Orc's Head materials. The official fan site has the .pdf of the Savage Coast MC that I made for my own campaign. That is I took the released materials and tried to create a professional looking document out of it. Because it is the only Savage Coast accessory where I didn't take the material and alter it for my own purposes I offered it to the Official Mystara site. I DID do .pdf of the rest of the setting, but they are quite messed up from the original releases. That is, customized for my own campaign. It always bugged me how vital "DM only" info was mixed in liberally throughout the entire accessory. So I split out player info from DM info and I also spliced the Orc's Head info with the Savage Coast info so it became a single document. Plus my own alteration to the Araneas made giving these out very inappropriate. Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:54:14 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Darokinian/Thyatian In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:43 11/4/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >The PWAs present Darokinian and Thyatian as separate languages, but >that does seem to be a bit of a stretch to me. Given their national >character, it would seem more likely that the people of Darokin would >learn the local Common language (Thyatian) rather than invent their >own language. If Darokinian has a separate existence, it would seem >that it would have to have originated as a dialect of Thyatian that imported >a lot of words from other Known World cultures. In that case, Thyatian, >Darokinian, Minrothad, Kerendan, and several other Known World >languages would have to be so closely related as to admit to a high >degree of mutual comprenhension. My train of thought exactly. (Well, not exactly: I don't know what "Kerendan" is.) I think, IMC, it'll be as I think Jenni put it, Daro is to Thyatian as British English is to American English (with Karameikos Thyatian being Canadian English). BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: A common prayer among the smaller nations of the Known World... In-Reply-To: <6f.c858408.27363f78@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:43 11/4/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >Stolen from "Fiddler on the Roof": > >A common prayer among religious persons of most of the smaller nations >of the Known World region: > >"May the Immortals bless and keep the two empires... far away from us!" Along those same thoughts, paraphrasing an apparently common Mexican saying: "Poor Karameikos: So far from the Immortals, so close to Thyatis." BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian >> In that case, Thyatian, Darokinian, Minrothad, Kerendan, and several other Known World languages << "Kerendan" and Thyatian are not different languages; they're different dialects of the same language (like Bronx English vs. Boston English vs. Midwestern English vs. Southern English). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:40:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Invisible Moon (was Mystaraspace) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-04 5:19:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, xenya@TELEPORT.COM writes: > Just out of curiosity, > > What's the use of an invisible moon? In addition to any other answers you may have received: It makes a nice hard target for the Beagle to have crashed into (ouch!) before it crash landed on Mystara. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:40:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-04 5:55:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: > > How many nations or groups of people are thought to come from another > > planet? > > Emerondians > Grens (Kavyids name, only Benekander is still alive) The name was not original with me -- I derived it from Gamma World materials in conjunction with descriptions of Benekander as well as the Emerondians. I would assume that the Emerondians, the "Pyritheans", and the crew of the Beagle were all members of this same human-like race noted for its resistance to magic as well as complete lack of any sort of magical (arcane/psionic) talent. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:40:52 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 12:17:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > My train of thought exactly. (Well, not exactly: I don't know what > "Kerendan" is.) That would be the dialect of the Kerendans of the Thytian Empire. They differ from other Thyatians only in having names that sound Italian rather than Greco-Roman. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara >> According to "Chronomancer," the Immortals of Time prevent mortals from mucking about with time travel. What's your reasoning as to how it could happen without Immortal approval? << Did I say anything about time travel? I didn't mention anything about time travel. Have *you* seen Stefan & Ericall in the same room? >> As to whether or not Stephan is a tyrant ... I think he's a generally benevolent one, who walks the thin line between being a boob and being extremely effective, << Well, that's not a refutation, that's an assertion. Stefan is a Thyatian, btw, as is Olivia &tc; so be careful when expressing that "prayer" of yours in their lands. Even if you're a simpathizer with the Traldarans (who, lets remember, were not disposessed of their lands and perogatives during the Thyatian protectorate era, but were when Stefan came in with his band of cronies. . .and that is one of the reasons why Stefan, properly seen, with his actions not propagandized, is a tyrant; he arbitrarily unsettled the previous situation so that he could enrich his cronies and cousins, regardless of the merits of the situation, and then casts those who he wronged by this action - I.E. the Marilenev clan - as the "evil" ones). And turning a blind eye to the depredations of his underlings (Ludwig), who he is responsible for (he's the guy's liege, not a bystander in the marketplace) for more than thirty years and then leaving the mess for others (the Hin) to clean up isn't either benevolent or effective. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:54:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <20001105031313.BA19881BB@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Another Mystaraspace related question. I was reading on starflung that Bruce Heard had posted once that some Alphatian mages performed some unbelievable magic spell which filled the void of Mystaraspace with atmosphere. Still leaving the Skyshields intact I guess... Is this a canon event? I guess he was inspired by Flash Gordon or something, and I find this fantastically intriguing. Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:24:31 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My take on the "Tyrannies": I will assume the classic definition by which a single ruler usurps absolute power: Karameikos: No -- Stefan was "given" authority over Karameikos by the Emperor Thincol, who inherited rule of that province by right of prior conquest. Ylaruam: No -- Whoever rules the Emirates now is the legitimate successor of the previous ruler(s). Glantri: No -- The magocracy established 200+ years ago continues uninterrupted. Ierendi: No -- Its monarch's are figureheads. The ruling oligarchy has never lost power. Alfheim: No -- Doriath is the legitimate successor of earlier kings of Alfheim. Since the Shadow Elf conquest results in the complete displacement of the original population of Alfheim, the new Radiant Princess is not a tyrant to her Shadow Elf subjects. Rockhome: No -- The royal succession in Rockhome continues uninterrupted. Northern Reaches: No -- The kings of Vestland and Ostland are the legitimate heirs of their predecessors, while the Soderfjord Jarl is "first among equals" who has at least a temporary advantage over his peers. Five Shires: No -- Its Shirriffs were all chosen legitimately according to ancient Hin tradition. Minrothad: No -- Again, no interruption of Guild succession. Darokin: No -- The traditional plutocracy retains control. Ethengar: No -- Regardless of their moral character, every tribal khan is the legitimate heir of his predecessor. Thytis: No -- Thincol's usurpation of control of Thyatis during the Spike Assault was legitimized by his marriage to the daughter of the previous Emperor. Alphatia: No -- While Eriadna did usurp control of the Empire from her father Tylion, she was his sole legitimate heir. Similarly, Zandor was her sole legitimate heir after the sinking of Alphatia. The later deposition of Zandor served to dissipate rather than concentrate power and so does not qualify as any sort of tyranny. Sind: Yes -- Hosadus the Master did impose his will over that country when he conquered it. His legitimate rulership there depends on the support of Chandra ul-Nervi, the legitimate monarch. As soon as Chandra withdraws his support, the Master becomes a tyrant there. Summary: Most Mystaran rulers are careful to observe the formal rules for ganing control of their territories and thus very few of them can be considered "tyrants" in the classical sense. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:36:59 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 1:04:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, xen@VISI.COM writes: > Another Mystaraspace related question. I was reading on starflung that > Bruce Heard had posted once that some Alphatian mages performed some > unbelievable magic spell which filled the void of Mystaraspace with > atmosphere. Still leaving the Skyshields intact I guess... > > Is this a canon event? I guess he was inspired by Flash Gordon or > something, and I find this fantastically intriguing. They certainly managed that feat in regard to their original solar system on the plane of Old Alphatia. As far as I know, the Mystaran solar system remains mostly vacuum. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:07:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Mystaraspace has no vacuum anymore? Reposts from 1998 [LONG] In-Reply-To: <20001105065604.3748B825B@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For the convenience of the discussion, and helping everyone interested from having to go hunt these down off starflung (or are we calling it the Vault of Pandius now?) Here we go! ------------- >From July 15 1998 http://dnd.starflung.com/s_ideas.html ------------- Ideas about space by Bruce Heard Re. navigation and flight capabilities One way I like to see space in the world of Mystara remains totally unlike the RW. There is no void, but instead a vast, weightless expanse filled with breathable air. Although it could be pretty cold (or pretty hot), it would not be as deadly as RW void. Hmmm... visions of space storms come up -- I wonder what this would be like. Light would have an easier way of getting through (???), maybe. On the other hand, "warp speed" definitely needs to be modified since friction with the air would make it totally impossible. One would assume then that warp speed causes the moving object to become semi-corporeal, thereby avoiding the problem with air friction and intervening obstacles altogether. I would also allow a version of the spell Find the Path to make such long distance travel more accurate (none of this missing the moving planet stuff). Basically keep it simple and adapt it to the game so adventuring becomes possible there without getting bogged down with science and interminable debates on the laws of physics. This *is* fantasy and as such, it does not have to be like the real world. I'd rather keep the RW space stuff for SF role-playing games. What I'm suggesting here is something that is far more tolerant of scientifically-challenged DMs and is also more colourful (see the schlock Flash Gordon movie for ideas on what space might look like) . What I mentioned above implies certainly a lot of ramifications -- which could be the start of another discussion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Heardium, Brucium, and just plain air! About "Heardium" and other issues in Mystara space... I would prefer Brucium. Sounds more Latin if anything! :-D I think it's just simpler to call it *air* so anyone capable of flying and making it through a vortigern vortex could conceivably reach outer space. The issue of "warp speed" then comes up again. Who can/can't attain warp speed? Is this a law of Mystaran physics which allows blinding outer-space speeds? How is it triggered? Or is it magical? Let's think outside of one's own box for a minute... If it's a law of Mystaran physics, then we could imagine the following properties. Anyone within a totally weightless area or within a weak enough gravity field (i.e. being at a certain distance of Mystara itself), may gradually attain non-corporeal shape. The property would be based on velocity (relative to the closest/largest object, presumably Mystara itself -- this can get weird). The higher the physical speed, the more incorporeal one would become. The more incorporeal, the greater velocity one can reach, and so on up to a point where one becomes totally immaterial and reaches "warp speed". Since one is incorporeal, sudden deceleration ceases to be a problem as well. The risk of course, if not knowing when/where to stop to reach a target since "navigation" is maintained through purely visual cues (not very accurate, but still manageable). A Find the Path spell would take over the flight path and bring the traveller to a full stop near the destination. If it is a magical property of Mystara-space, then I would make the Find the Path spell be the trigger of the "warp speed". The rest is identical to what I described above. Therefore, only creatures that can cast that spell could leave Mystara and reach other worlds. This should make the whole thing pretty simple. Being incorporeal does not mean someone is in the astral or ethereal plane. It only means its atoms are vibrating at a different wavelength. Any DM can modify this so it does interfere with outer planes -- allowing interesting encounters occasionally. Basically, the vessel travelling at warp speed becomes a unwitting portal to these planes. Just a thought... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:09:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Mystaraspace Reposts from 1998, pt 2 [Long] In-Reply-To: <20001105065604.3748B825B@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From July 22, 1998 http://dnd.starflung.com/air.html ------------------ Mystara-space: air by Bruce Heard Prior to AC1016, outer space was roughly comparable to real world space with a cold vacuum and weightless conditions. During AC1016, however, a group of Alphatian mages recovered ancient parchments that described how their ancestors had filled space around their native world with breathable air. The scrolls were very old and partially damaged, and these Alphatian wizards failed to fully comprehend what they were dealing with. They attempted to test the ancient spell which they thought would draw from the Plane of Air enough of an atmosphere to fill the inner void inside the Hollow World. The Spell of Preservation governing the Hollow World conflicted with their new-found magic, and caused its centre to shift from the inside of the Hollow World to a fair distance outside Mystara. It took the wizards many weeks to discover where the spell was centred and put an end to it. By then, vast expanses of outer space surrounding Mystara, its two moons, and much of its solar system was filled with air. Much worse, the Alphatian spell was powerful enough to alter some of the laws of physics. It made it possible to stabilise such a huge expanse of gas, normal planetary gravity and movement in space. Although dismayed at first, some of the wizards were overjoyed that their spell did work, even if outside the Hollow World only. Whether this had forever altered their world was of no concern at all to them. Their interest was for the spell itself, and for them it remained almost a purely academic experiment. Satisfied that Alphatian arcane know-how hadn't lost its edge, these scholars went on with other projects. They were satisfied that the Alphatians had finally left a lasting mark on this world, in letting this good, wholesome air vent away all the "festering miasma and unhealthy vapours exhaled from human civilisation and choking so fine a world"!" From their point of view, outer world travel would also be so much easier. At least that's what they thought then. The remainder of these Alphatians did not share their colleagues' jubilation. For them, the spell had indeed run amuck. But worse, as it presumably made space travel easier it also made Mystara more vulnerable to possible incursions from other worlds. Virtually nothing was known of what lay in the distant worlds of the firmament. Empress Eriadna of Alphatia was the most eminent and vocal of the spell effect's detractors. She ordered that the spell be undone at once, but to no avail. The wizards did not know how to reverse such a powerful enchantment. The entire group was subsequently condemned to live on an asteroid past Matera's far side, there to pursue their research for a counter-spell. Only then would they be permitted to return from their place of exile. Fortunately, the Hollow World remained unaffected and ever so difficult to reach without Immortal-magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:12:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Mystaraspace Reposts from 1998, pt 3 [Long] In-Reply-To: <20001105065604.3748B825B@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From July 21, 1998 http://dnd.starflung.com/gravity.html ------------------ Mystaraspace: Gravity by Bruce Heard Objects of ten tons or more, like a ship for example, exert their own gravity. Gravity is comparable to normal Mystaran gravity, except it extends to a much shorter range (no more than 100ft from edges of the hull). The ship's gravity centres on its heaviest, single part, which has prompted some space explorers to fit a mast underneath their ship, ending with a very dense, heavy object. This gives the illusion of vertical gravity that is roughly perpendicular to the ship's decks. Naturally, this counterweight is removed or jettisoned before crossing into a planet's Skyshield. Should a larger object, like a planet for example, be close enough, it would affect the smaller object as a whole, single object. The latter means that a ship's own gravity does not change when cruising near a planet, causing passengers to suddenly lose their footing and fall off their ship. The rule of thumb is that a ship and its passengers would be attracted by a planet as if they were one single object until they crossed its Skyshield, at which point normal laws of physic apply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ addendum by Sharon Dornhoff Small addendum (there I go, nitpicking again!): Objects of immense size -- say a million tons or more; i.e. suns, planets, moons, and very large asteroids -- interact with each others' gravity in a different manner. Their gravity's range extends much, much farther when similarly-large objects are concerned, decreasing with distance in exactly the same manner as IRL gravity does. For interactions between objects of a million-plus tonnage, the strength of gravity varies in proportion to their mass; it's only when smaller objects are involved, that the force of gravity remains constant. Just making sure Mystara's entire solar system doesn't fall apart, due to short-range gravity! ;-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:14:29 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Mystaraspace Reposts from 1998, end [Long] In-Reply-To: <20001105065604.3748B825B@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From July 21, 1998 http://dnd.starflung.com/navi.html ------------------ Mystaraspace: Navigation by Bruce Heard This is where things get really weird. Feel free to jump in and suggest different approaches for this. I'm just putting down some ideas -- this isn't a final contribution, naturally. ***** Navigation: Planets hurtle through space at high speeds, however, their Skyshields prevent air friction from interfering with their course to some degree. Mystara's moon, Matera, is an airless satellite by design. It has its own Skyshield to prevent air from reaching it. Vast quantities of air filling Mystara's outer-space move along with the planets and their moons. The further one travels from a planet's orbital path, the more turbulence, until reaching another air current. "Cosmic turbulence" is more than enough to rip apart any ship attempting to cross through without protection. Magic can be used to avoid some of the effects of cosmic turbulence. Find the Path not only allows a travelling ship to target the appropriate spot to reach a planet, but if cast at sufficient level, enables the ship to accelerate to planetary speeds (the "warp* speed described in Champions of Mystara). The spell causes the ship and its passengers to become partly incorporeal, thereby avoiding the problem of air resistance, cosmic turbulence, and intervening obstacles in the ship's path. Crossing regions of cosmic turbulence remains a rough ride nevertheless. The experience level needed to cast the spell amounts to one level for 10 tons of material to be displaced (ship, cargo, and passengers for example). Travelling ships also have to contend with pockets of rarefied air and varying temperatures. So far, no humidity has slipped into the breathable space, so no earth-like storms should be expected. There could be pockets of other gases and electrical phenomena affect Mystara space. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:29:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:50 11/5/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >>> According to "Chronomancer," the Immortals of Time prevent mortals from mucking about with time travel. What's your reasoning as to how it could happen without Immortal approval? << > >Did I say anything about time travel? I didn't mention anything about time travel. >Have *you* seen Stefan & Ericall in the same room? Silly me. I got confused at the discussions of whether or not they were the same person, just different ages. >>> As to whether or not Stephan is a tyrant ... I think he's a generally benevolent one, who walks the thin line between being a boob and being extremely effective, << > >Well, that's not a refutation, that's an assertion. So? >Stefan is a Thyatian, btw, as is Olivia &tc; so be careful when expressing that "prayer" of yours in their lands. Stefan is also a big proponent of the "new Karameikeans." In fact, I suspect in front of him, it's extremely unwise to call him a Thyatian. >And turning a blind eye to the depredations of his underlings (Ludwig), who he is responsible for (he's the guy's liege, not a bystander in the marketplace) for more than thirty years and then leaving the mess for others (the Hin) to clean up isn't either benevolent or effective. That's what my "boob" comment referred to. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:31:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Darokinian/Thyatian In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001104205414.007b4c50@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 2000/11/04, 20:54 -0800, you wrote: >At 23:43 11/4/00 EST, David Knott wrote: > >[...] In that case, Thyatian, > >Darokinian, Minrothad, Kerendan, and several other Known World > >languages would have to be so closely related as to admit to a high > >degree of mutual comprenhension. > > My train of thought exactly. (Well, not exactly: I don't know what >"Kerendan" is.) > I think, IMC, it'll be as I think Jenni put it, Daro is to > Thyatian as >British English is to American English (with Karameikos Thyatian being >Canadian English). Actually what I meant to say was: "Daro is to Thyatian as American English is to British English (with Karameikos Thyatian being Canadian English)." In other words, Thyatian is the "original source", while Daro is the "melting pot modified" version, and Karameikan is closer to the original in many ways, but tends towards Daro in other ways. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:32:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > Jens wrote: > >> I can't say that this sounds familiar to me, but I'm not dismissing the possibility... When would this have been? << > > Earlier this year; either this summer some time, or in late winter/early spring, when the history of Alphatia was being discussed. Yes, I remember it: there was a discussion whose topic was: "Have the Alphatians REALLY destroyed the world? How could they be so stupid?" At first, I agreed with this assertion, but in the end I seem to recall that we said that Canon is so clear on this point that there is no room for escape, and then it was such an important event in Alphatian history, that it was better to leave it as it is. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:35:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've also explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are the same person* (another bit of evidence: we never see them in the same room). Anyone want to refute that? > No, quite the contrary. And I am sure that the Master of Hule is impersonating both Ericall and Stefan. He is all three. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:48:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Writing [was: Re: Chronicles of Nentsun- Part Four] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacob Skytte wrote: > Caroletti presented yet another chapter of history... > > Well, I look forward to when (if) you get to something that's more suitable for gaming. I find it really hard to keep reading through these historical essays. Of course, I can always catch up on Starflung later. :) Yes, I know it can be somewhat annoying and boring, but to have a fixed history timeline is, in my way of writing, not only useful, but necessary. Personally I am a very organized writer: I decide how to start a project and then I begin to write from the beginning way down to the end, concentrating on what I am writing only. Thus, when I decide a project, I decide the order by which I will write it and then go on until that part is finished. I don't like writing a bit here and one there, for several reasons: it makes it harder to avoid internal contraddictions, it is easy to forget ideas while you write, and if I must leave the project for some time it makes it impossible to send what I have accomplished until then, and difficult to resume it once I can come back to it. Before starting to send these chapters of Nentsun's history, I have written them all (I am sending one each week), and meanwhile I am writing the Gazetteer. I hope to finish the first part (Nentsun's Inner Circle) in two weeks. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:22:10 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > My take on the "Tyrannies": > > I will assume the classic definition by which a single ruler usurps absolute > power: > > Karameikos: No -- Stefan was "given" authority over Karameikos by > the Emperor Thincol, who inherited rule of that province by right of > prior conquest. [...] > Sind: Yes -- Hosadus the Master did impose his will over that country > when he conquered it. His legitimate rulership there depends on the > support of Chandra ul-Nervi, the legitimate monarch. As soon as > Chandra withdraws his support, the Master becomes a tyrant there. Wouldn't it qualify as "right of conquest", just like Karameikos above? > Summary: Most Mystaran rulers are careful to observe the formal > rules for ganing control of their territories and thus very few of them > can be considered "tyrants" in the classical sense. I definitely agree. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:44:36 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > Stalker wrote: > > >> Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... << > > Don't worry about it. Be happy, actually. Some of the best discussions on the list start "by accident" as people go off on tangents. > > At least this gets to discussing some other countries (we'll see) than the ones we've been talking about almost exclusively. > > I've explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are tyrants. Anyone want to take up the challenge and vindicate them? Well, Stefan is definitely a tyrant, by your definition (though I will use the word "despot" instead, just to avoid confusion with the classical tyrant). Ericall, IMO, is not a tyrant. Why? Simply because he has no absolute power, as Norwold is just a part of the Alphatian Empire. As such, Ericall is just an Alphatian satrap, and a mundaner one, kept under the control of the Council through his (magically endowed) advisor (Madiera) and wife (Alanira). > I've also explained why I think Stefan (Karameikos) and Ericall (Norwold) are the same person* (another bit of evidence: we never see them in the same room). Anyone want to refute that? Here I definitely agree... Norwold as a campaign setting was devised as an high-powered Karameikos, with Ericall-Stefan as the good-but-stupid ruler, and the same cast of secondary characters: Norwold Karameikos Common ground ====================================================================== Lernal Von Hendricks The evil relative Alak Dool Bargle Scheming wizard Leeha The Five Shires Halfling country to be invaded by the evil relative or wizard Foresthomes Callarii/Vyalia Independent but friendly elves Oceansend Highforge Independent (and rather isolationist) Kingdom Alanira Olivia Arranged marriage, completed after the King has got his Kingdom, independent and politically adept woman -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:10:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... I just wanted to say that it wasn't a big deal if we declared Alphatia a tyranny, because many other Mystaran nations would be too, and then give a few examples. Unfortunately, many of your examples (chiefly, the Five Shires and Darokin, IIRC), are not tyrannyies by any stretch of imagination, as their rulers have no absolute power, nor they are especially oppressive for the native inhabitants (sure, being a Dwarf or a Glantrian wizard in the Shires might bring you more than a few troubles, but neither Glantrian nor Dwarves are supposed to be in the Shires). Therefore, a different definition was needed for your use of the word "tyranny". > However, using 'tyranny for whatever I don't like' would not be entirely accurate, though you may be right about Alphatia, because while I like the empire, I don't really like the government-structure so much. > > Still, the shires aren't a tyranny in my book, though I still do like the place! I suppose you mean "the shires are a tyranny in my book", or "I still don't like the place" otherwise the sentence does support the use of "tyranny for whatever the Stalker's doesn't like" :) Anyway, the problem was that the definition of "tyranny" out of the dictionary does not fit your examples (especially Darokin, but most countries of the KW haven't got tyrannical governmnts). Therefore, the problem wasn't really to define "tyranny", but to find what you meant by "tyranny", which I supposed to be any form or practice of government that you would find oppressive. (Than I oversimplified it, but that's my style, unluckily) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:02:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian History Screed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:32:07 Caroletti wrote: >Evil Genius wrote: > >> Jens wrote: >> >> I can't say that this sounds familiar to me, but I'm not dismissing the possibility... When would this have been? << >> >> Earlier this year; either this summer some time, or in late winter/early spring, when the history of Alphatia was being discussed. > >Yes, I remember it: there was a discussion whose topic was: >"Have the Alphatians REALLY destroyed the world? How could they be so >stupid?" >At first, I agreed with this assertion, but in the end I seem to recall that we said >that Canon is so clear on this point that there is no room for escape, and then >it was such an important event in Alphatian history, that it was better to leave it >as it is. > Ah, yes. I remember it now too. Yes, I did argue in favor on not destroying Old Alphatia, but it had less to do with an attempt to say that the Alphatians were benevolent and wouldn't do so (their subsequent history on Mystara would suggest otherwise anyway), and more to do with the fact that I just did see that it made any sense. IIRC there were even a number of people who agreed with me on that, and I didn't think changing it would impact Mystara at all. In the end we just dropped the matter and went on, which should be taken to mean that I do accept canon as written... Even if I think its history makes little sense as stated. I guess we could add something that explains it further, though... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:18:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Oppressive nations (was: Tyrannies of Mystara) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:10:50 Agathokles wrote: >The Stalker wrote: >> >> Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... I just wanted to say that it wasn't a big deal if we declared Alphatia a tyranny, because many other Mystaran nations would be too, and then give a few examples. > >Unfortunately, many of your examples (chiefly, the Five Shires and >Darokin, IIRC), are not tyrannyies by any stretch of imagination, as >their rulers have no absolute power, nor they are especially oppressive >for the native inhabitants (sure, being a Dwarf or a Glantrian wizard in >the Shires might bring you more than a few troubles, but neither >Glantrian nor Dwarves are supposed to be in the Shires). >Therefore, a different definition was needed for your use of the word >"tyranny". > Okay. You'll have to blame Caroletti a bit for this one too, as this all started when he said something along the lines of "if people who like Alphatia said, 'Yes, it's a tyranny', then what could we say?" (thereby referring to people who dislike Alphatia. Sorry if I'm misrepresenting you here, Giulio)... So I said it, and this thread started. Since James already listed Alphatia as not being a tyranny in a list in another post (Sind being the only one), I guess a different term is required. What if I said 'Oppressive nations' instead? Note that I would apply oppressive no matter whether the ruler is good or evil. Thus, Karameikos would be oppressive even though Stefan is a good king, because his rule is unjust (it favors the Thyatian settlers), and Darokin would be too because only those with enough money can influence the nation's political decisions. >> However, using 'tyranny for whatever I don't like' would not be entirely accurate, though you may be right about Alphatia, because while I like the empire, I don't really like the government-structure so much. >> >> Still, the shires aren't a tyranny in my book, though I still do like the place! > >I suppose you mean "the shires are a tyranny in my book", or "I still >don't like the place" otherwise the sentence does support the use of >"tyranny for whatever the Stalker's doesn't like" :) > Actually I meant the opposite, "the shires aren't a tyranny in my book, though I still *don't* like the place!" Sorry for the typo. >Anyway, the problem was that the definition of "tyranny" out of the >dictionary does not fit your examples (especially Darokin, but most >countries of the KW haven't got tyrannical governmnts). >Therefore, the problem wasn't really to define "tyranny", but to find >what you meant by "tyranny", which I supposed to be any form or practice >of government that you would find oppressive. (Than I oversimplified it, >but that's my style, unluckily) Given that that's pretty much the word I chose to use instead above, I'd say you're right :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:54:23 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-03 12:23:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > Actually, it first appears in "Dragon" when Bruce Heard is answering > letters in a VotPA article, about the time the Hollow World boxed set came > out. I don't know if it actually appears in any products at that point, > though. Is Bruce Heard using the name himself or quoting one of his characters as saying it? I suspect that the first mention of the name "Mystara" pre-dates by several years the first in-character usage of the name in any official product. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:56:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Oppressive nations (was: Tyrannies of Mystara) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:10:50 Agathokles wrote: > >The Stalker wrote: > >> > >> Shoot, and I didn't even mean to... I just wanted to say that it wasn't a big deal if we declared Alphatia a tyranny, because many other Mystaran nations would be too, and then give a few examples. > > > >Unfortunately, many of your examples (chiefly, the Five Shires and > >Darokin, IIRC), are not tyrannyies by any stretch of imagination, as > >their rulers have no absolute power, nor they are especially oppressive > >for the native inhabitants (sure, being a Dwarf or a Glantrian wizard in > >the Shires might bring you more than a few troubles, but neither > >Glantrian nor Dwarves are supposed to be in the Shires). > >Therefore, a different definition was needed for your use of the word > >"tyranny". > > > > Okay. You'll have to blame Caroletti a bit for this one too, as this all started when he said something along the lines of "if people who like Alphatia said, 'Yes, it's a tyranny', then what could we say?" (thereby referring to people who dislike Alphatia. Sorry if I'm misrepresenting you here, Giulio)... Ah, yes. Well, I didn't mean that, though...Ok, I'll take the blame. Wait? What am I saying? Take the blame for what an Alphatian says? No way! Alphatia IS a Tyranny! Muhahahaha! 8-) Now seriously: obviously I meant more an aristocratic monarchy with very few rights for its subjects. > Thus, Karameikos would be oppressive even though Stefan is a good king, because his rule is unjust (it favors the Thyatian settlers), and Darokin would be too because only those with enough money can influence the nation's political decisions. And thus most of the democratic governments of Western Civilization. No, I don't agree with Darokin...I do, however, fully for Karamiekos. However, it's some time I don't read Darokin Gaz, so I could misremember. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis Citizen ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:18:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos David Knot wrote: >> Karameikos: No -- Stefan was "given" authority over Karameikos by the Emperor Thincol, who inherited rule of that province by right of prior conquest. << Actually, rulers put in power by outside powers were, in the classical (Greek) definition of the term, Tyrannts. Similarly, Stefan elivating himself as King is a classical act of a Tyrant (such as the real Agathocles, Tyrannt of Syracuse). Beau wrote: >> >Well, that's not a refutation, that's an assertion. << >> So? << Since you don't provide any reasons to support your assertions, its hard to credit them. >> In fact, I suspect in front of him, it's extremely unwise to call him a Thyatian. << I doubt that's the case in the AC 1000 era, but after AC 1007 when he betrays his friend Thincol and turns his back on his homeland, that might be the case; it would be an unwelcome reminder of him selling out Thyatis. >> Stefan is also a big proponent of the "new Karameikeans." << Right, like Mao and Stalin's "New Communist Man" and Cults of Personality. Molding these people in his own image. >> >And turning a blind eye to the depredations of his underlings (Ludwig), who he is responsible for (he's the guy's liege, not a bystander in the marketplace) for more than thirty years and then leaving the mess for others (the Hin) to clean up isn't either benevolent or effective. < << >> That's what my "boob" comment referred to. << So you're saying he's an incompetent ruler. I think its more than that. Again, lets check the "tale of the tape" - the facts: 1) when the Thyatians initially came to Traladara, here's how Gaz1: the Grand Duchy of Karameikos, describes it: "Marilenev was renaimed Specularuam ("The Mirror City"), a wall was built around the village, and a contingent of Thyatis soldiery was left there, but little else changed in Traladara. Trade went on, the wealthy families of Specularuam retained their properties, and there were no oppressive cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion." (p.13) 2) Stefan Karameikos arrives. Most nobles call themselves after their dominion (I.E. in Thyatis, the Duke of Kerendas traditionally takes the name "Kerendas" as his last name. DotE DMSB, p.14). In a stunning act of self-centered hubris, Stefan renames the place after himself. 3) Stefan's ambitions result in an immediate revolt against his regime, followed by attempts to assassinate him; clearly, his rule is not seen as ligitimate by the local population. Stefan then, indiscriminately, appoints Thyatian cronies of his, displacing the pre-existing traditional Traladaran families; an act typical of a Tyrannt. 4) Stefan is not a good ruler; no serious thinker would view a man who cannot see evil in others as a good ruler. Again, see Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and others for why someone who cannot see evil in others is not a good ruler. 5) Stefan is an unfit liege: he makes appointments for people to rule in his name over his subjects regardless of their fitness, the most notorious of these ruling, in Halag, for over thirty years. Stefan does nothing about this wicked vassal. Far from being a mere "boob" who doesn't see it, when he is finally confronted with the truth, and is forced to face it, he accepts no responsibility for it; he takes no action to remove the offensive vassal, merely standing asside while others (the Hin) performs the act a responsible ruler would do himself: he makes the Hin do the fighting and dying to remove the man he, Stefan, is responsible for appointing and who he left to rule despotically over Halag. 6) Stefan has a good, solid propaganda machine that minimizes his negative actions and promotes the Cult of Personality of "Karameikos". But that doesn't make "Uncle Stefan" (as in "Uncle Joe") a good ruler. One must judge the actions themselves, not the PR machine. 7) We've talked recently about how the Empire of Thyatis (as opposed to the Kingdom of Thyatis) was founded on an act of treachery. What was the Kingdom of Karameikos founded on? An act of treachery. I quote from WotI's "The Immortals Fury", p.79-80, the event titled (not my words, mind) "Karameikos Sells Out": "News Events: Teldon, head of the Magicians' Guild in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos, makes a secret diplomatic mission to Sundsvall. On his return, Duke Stefan announces that henceforth his country will no longer be a 'Grand Duchy' but the Kingdom of Karameikos, with himself as King Stefan I." "The terms of mutual peace and neutrality Teldon has just negotiated with Alphatia soon become public knowlege. The newly-established Kingdom of Karameikos agrees not to help Thyatis in this war -- in effect, selling out their longtime allies. In return, Alphatia agrees to recognize Karameikos's independence and to set up a school of magic in the Karameikan capital of Specularuam." "This treaty is one of the major events of the war. Duke (now King) Stefan has long desired his own throne, completely free of any allegiance to his old friend, Emperor Thincol. With Thyatis's troops committed to the war with Alphatia, Stefan has chosen this moment to declare his independence, when Thincol can hardly spare the men to re-take Karameikos (which has been autonomous for the last three-and-a-half decades anyway)." "Stefan has received Empress Eriadna's assurance that Alphatia does not perceive Karameikos to be Thincol's ally. He believes that Thyatis is doomed and rationalizes his betrayal of his homeland by saying that the steps he has taken will insure that Thyatian culture survives even if the Empire is destroyed. He also recognizes the very real danger posed by the Master of the Desert Nomads. Finally, by establishing a school of magic, he is looking to the future, hoping to increase his nation's magical ability in upcomming years." "Within weeks of the treay's being made public, the best units of Karameikos's military forces march and sail west to relieve the pressure on Darokin. En route, they join halfling forces from the Five Shires and a small number of elven units from Alfheim." A) "Sells out his longtime allies" - not my words, TSR's words. B) "betrays his homeland" - not my words, TSR's words. C) Self-serving rationalizations ring hollow, and don't excuse betrayal and treachery. Note that he is willing to fight against the "grave threat" of the Master, but not against his homeland's enemy, Alphatia. Why? Because this was a good time to stab his friend Thincol in the back, a time when Thincol couldn't do anything about it. Why does Stefan do this? Again, self-serving reasons to profit from it. He becomes King by an act of treachery and betrayal against a friend, Zendrolion became an Emperor by an act of treachery against and betrayal against a friend. If the Master of Hule had offered him a school of magic, would Stefan then have recognized "the very real danger posed by Alphatia"? The World Wonders. D) Stefan then claims Kingship; he is not a Dynastic King at this point (he intends to be the first in a line of Dynastic King, but many Tyrannts have that intention/goal); therefore, he is by the classical definition a Tyrannt. By the "opression" definition, remember how Stefan cemented his rule in the first place (precipitating a revolt against him, imposing alien rulers on the population - something the Empire hadn't done before then - disposessing the traditional Traladaran governing families - again something the Empire hadn't done before then - and replacing them with his lackies, cronies, and, nepotistically, cousins, and allowing them to rule however they pleased, Stefan being an irresponsible Liege); that qualifies as Tyranny. Those are the facts, stripped of the exculpatory polemical/propagandistic language. This leads to the conclusion that, had the Master of Hule Hosadus done the same things (in, say, Sind), these acts would be used as evidence for why Hosadus is e! ! vil. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:28:01 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > No, quite the contrary. And I am sure that the Master of Hule is impersonating > both Ericall and Stefan. He is all three. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > Our Master has ordered the immediate termination of Captain Scaevola, who is getting too dangerous with his knowledge. Alrethus, Scribe of the Master -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:35:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: ; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:18:28AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:18:28AM -0500, Evil Genius wrote: > Again, lets check the "tale of the tape" - the facts: Yeah, but he's so cuddly, how could anyone not like him :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos Gordon wrote: >> Yeah, but he's so cuddly, how could anyone not like him :) << That's why the "hot but evil babe" villian goes over so well, I guess: "She may be evil, but she's so darn. . .*cute*. How could anyone not like her?" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:05:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: ; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:47:06AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:47:06AM -0500, Evil Genius wrote: > Gordon wrote: > >> Yeah, but he's so cuddly, how could anyone not like him :) << > > That's why the "hot but evil babe" villian goes over so well, I > guess: "She may be evil, but she's so darn. . .*cute*. How could anyone > not like her?" I believe that's how Dolores get's away with so much... I mean like Jaggar didn't know she was a dragon, of *course* he knew, he also knew she was one *sexy* dragon :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara Mystara wrote: >> Ericall, IMO, is not a tyrant. Why? Simply because he has no absolute power, as Norwold is just a part of the Alphatian Empire. As such, Ericall is just an Alphatian satrap, and a mundaner one, kept under the control of the Council through his (magically endowed) advisor (Madiera) and wife (Alanira). << I'm not sure about that, especially in the "modern" (post-WotI) era. For one thing, by the classical Greek definition, foreign powers setting up Tyrannts to rule over certain places didn't make them any less Tyrannts. Alphatia *claims*, but doesn't really *control* Norwold (they want to control it, same as Hosadus wants to control Sind and Darokin and the same way Denagoth might want to control Norwold. If the Shadow Lord of Denagoth sent someone to be "King of Norwold", would we see that person as not a Tyrannt?) Ericall is dependent upon Alphatia for his position, but, again classically, Tyrannts (especially those established by foreign powers) were often dependent upon foreign powers for their position. Ericall, like Stefan, doles out portions of Norwold to his cronies, feckless relatives (Lernal, as you mentioned), and just about anyone who shows up - so long as he or she is not a native Norwoldian (or so it seems) to govern over the region, again in disregard of the traditional patterns of rulership in the region. He even claims authority over Oceansend. . . >> Here I definitely agree... Norwold as a campaign setting was devised as an high-powered Karameikos, with Ericall-Stefan as the good-but-stupid ruler, << For some reason that reminded me of the quote from Spaceballs. . . "Evil will always triumph because good is stupid" - Dark Helmet. But, as Beau pointed out (though he didn't mean it this way), Stefan *can* be an effective, even brilliant ruler. . .when he wants to. When he isn't effective, what does that tell you? Deep down inside, in those instances he doesn't *want* to be effective and do anything about the problematic situation. A true case of Machiavellianism in action: it's enough for the Prince to be *seen* as being good than to actually *be* good. Indeed, you can get what you want better & more often if you're merely seen as being good, while actually behaving. . .badly. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Despotic Nations. >> Since James already listed Alphatia as not being a tyranny in a list in another post (Sind being the only one), << That was Agathokles, I think. >> I guess a different term is required. What if I said 'Oppressive nations' instead? << Moral equivilency, eh? All nations are opressive to one degree or another, so all nations are equal in their opressiveness? I'm not sure that works. Some Animals are More Equal Than Others. Agathokles also proposed the term "Despot" (and by extention "Despotic/Despotate") - that would be more apt. Examples: Darokin is not Despotic. Glantri is not a Despotate but its constituent Principalities are Despotates. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The "Cute Villian" Factor >> I believe that's how Dolores get's away with so much...<< >> I mean like Jaggar didn't know she was a dragon, of *course* he knew, he also knew she was one *sexy* dragon :) << Exactly. Indeed, I thought about using her as a specific example. 8-) I mean, lets face it: guys who dress all in black with oily black hair and spiky beards or long, thin mustaches that they curl while cackleing manaically, they're not going to get away with much. But a villian who looks like Goldilocks or Leonardo DeCaprio (is he still "in"? I admit I wouldn't know) is going to be given the benifit of every doubt. "Oh, I didn't *mean* to let the bad guys know that the messenger was going to be going that route, I'm sorry, silly me. *smile*" Oily guys make great scapegoats, but the *really* nasty villians are people the characters are inclined to trust and like - even swoon over. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:02:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Games Mystarans Play MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Geoff- there was such a comic in the dmg. The game was named something like you mentioned, i.e. Papers & Paychecks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:06:33 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: <29.c246b44.2736ce9f@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:54 11/5/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >> Actually, it first appears in "Dragon" when Bruce Heard is answering >> letters in a VotPA article, about the time the Hollow World boxed set came >> out. I don't know if it actually appears in any products at that point, >> though. > >Is Bruce Heard using the name himself or quoting one of his characters >as saying it? I suspect that the first mention of the name "Mystara" >pre-dates by several years the first in-character usage of the name in >any official product. The first time I noticed it, it was Bruce responding to a letter asking what the name of the planet was. But that came after the Princess Ark's space adventures, so I need to look back and see what the Alphatians refer to Mystara during those escapades. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:16:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:18 11/5/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >>> In fact, I suspect in front of him, it's extremely unwise to call him a Thyatian. << > >I doubt that's the case in the AC 1000 era, but after AC 1007 when he betrays his friend Thincol and turns his back on his homeland, that might be the case; it would be an unwelcome reminder of him selling out Thyatis. This is the great joy about this list. One third of the people consider the Gazetteers the "present," one third think of the end of TSR-published canon as the "present," and one third consider the latest MA as "the present." I play in 1013, at the end of TSR's continuity. In that period, Stephan Karameikos has broken with Thyatis and is actively trying to force the two ethnic groups to think of themselves as one group, although he's undercut by some of his nobles, most notably Kelvin and his wife. I apologize for not making my "present" clearer. >A) "Sells out his longtime allies" - not my words, TSR's words. >B) "betrays his homeland" - not my words, TSR's words. Um, OK. I don't know why you're so pissed about this. Did he beat you up in the process or anything? I don't recall racing to the battlements to defend his honor. I just said I thought that Stephan was a mix of boob and sometimes competent, guided by his ideals. There are lots of people in real life and Mystara who do bad things for what they think are good reasons. But I don't really care enough to get sniped at over it, in any case. Karameikos is one of the settings I use, but who the king is and how he behaves is not exactly central to my games. (And, FWIW, I wrote a player's guide to the Known World for my players, all from the perspective of the royal childrens' tutor. It's filled with inconsistencies and is clearly self-serving and, I suspect, my players have come to the same conclusion you have about Karameikos' independence from Thyatis.) But I concede your point, I guess. I don't know that I was ever really against it; I must have just denounced him insufficiently or something. Geez. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:19:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: The "Cute Villian" Factor In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:33 11/5/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >I mean, lets face it: guys who dress all in black with oily black hair and spiky beards or long, thin mustaches that they curl while cackleing manaically, they're not going to get away with much. > >But a villian who looks like Goldilocks or Leonardo DeCaprio (is he still "in"? I admit I wouldn't know) is going to be given the benifit of every doubt. "Oh, I didn't *mean* to let the bad guys know that the messenger was going to be going that route, I'm sorry, silly me. *smile*" > >Oily guys make great scapegoats, but the *really* nasty villians are people the characters are inclined to trust and like - even swoon over. How did Bargle get away with so much then? The silly name? I'm actually planning on using him as a major NPC in my campaign, although the players haven't gotten that far yet. Anyone with advice on how to run him? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:41:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos Mystara wrote: >> Um, OK. I don't know why you're so pissed about this. Did he beat you up in the process or anything? << Did I say I was "pissed" about it? Did he have to beat me up in the process for those to be wicked acts? You said he was a generally benevolent guy, I think. I was pointing out that betrayal and selling out one's allies are not normally considered benevolent acts. Nor is turning one's back on a friend when he needs you most. That's what I was saying. >> It's filled with inconsistencies and is clearly self-serving and, I suspect, my players have come to the same conclusion you have about Karameikos' independence from Thyatis. << Well, see, I'm not so full of it after all then. 8-) >> But I concede your point, I guess. I don't know that I was ever really against it; I must have just denounced him insufficiently or something. << You're taking my comments too personally (I didn't say anything about you, we were just talking about the game world). Me expressing my opinions and reasons for holding them is often taken as a personal attack on people, but I don't exactly know why. As for Stefan, I didn't say he beat me up, but if you'd like I could throw in that he sent his thugs and legbreakers to try when "this reporter started to expose the truth about Stefan". But I think those were Olivia's thugs. *_+ <---- wink emoticon, for those who don't know what that is. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The >> How did Bargle get away with so much then? The silly name? << I have no idea, really. The "silly name" thing is as good a reason as any. I mean, lets face it; in "canon" Bargle (& Ludwig) are such *obvious* villians. The only thing they don't do in broad daylight is tie damsels to railroad tracks, but I suspect that's because their aren't any outside Highforge. (Wait, I think I saw Ludwig & Bargle carrying a wriggling bundle up to Highforge. . .) >> I'm actually planning on using him as a major NPC in my campaign, although the players haven't gotten that far yet. Anyone with advice on how to run him? << I'd have him use disguises and illusions, for both himself and Ludwig, a lot - and do things using intermediaries (expendable thugs and the like with no provable direct connection to either of them). Bargle can also use innocent, Charmed and Dominated pawns (dudes he Charms and Dominates and then orders to attack the PCs - the PCs don't know that the guy or gal suddenly pulling a sword on them is really innocent until too late. . .the PCs probably just cut them down. . .) Charmed and Dominated pawns in a position to hear things would also be useful (Charmed servants in the Duke/King's household, for example, who overhear things and pass on information. . .) I mean, lets face it, whenever Bargle or Ludwig show up someplace as themselves, the characters will know something's up. But what if that "kindly old sage" feeding them information and tips (that *seem* initially to lead them in the right direction) is *really* Bargle in disguise? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The De-Bargleization >> I mean, lets face it, whenever Bargle or Ludwig show up someplace as themselves, the characters will know something's up. << This made me think of some other ideas: 1) Since suspicion follows Ludwig & Bargle everywhere they go, probably their most important minions would be their "stand-in doubles" - lookalikes disguised as Ludwig or Bargle, thus distracting attention from the *real* Ludwig & Bargle ("Ludwig was seen over in Luln yesterday, so he couldn't have been in highforge tying damsels to the railroad tracks.") This is also a good excuse if the characters/party prematurely kill either one - they actually kill the double(s), not the real Ludwig or Bargle. 2) Bargle: for him, another possibility is to make lots of use of the spell Magic Jar (idea: cast Feeblemind on the victim, followed by Magic Jar, that makes maintaining control so much easier). Then commit whatever crimes he wants to in the body of someone else (an innocent victim, a good and decent guy, someone who's loyal and honorable), who then gets convicted of the crimes (kills two birds with one stone: Bargle commits the vile deed, but isn't seen anywhere near it so his presence doesn't raise suspicions, simoultaniously scapgoating and framing someone else and eliminating that person as well). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:08:45 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Bargle In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:48 11/5/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >>> I'm actually planning on using him as a major NPC in my campaign, although the players haven't gotten that far yet. Anyone with advice on how to run him? << > >I'd have him use disguises and illusions, for both himself and Ludwig, a lot - and do things using intermediaries (expendable thugs and the like with no provable direct connection to either of them). Well, at this point (the summer of 1013), Bargle and Ludwig are actively thwarting each other's plans. Ludwig is working IMC through humanoids sent from the Broken Lands and Glantri (all exceptional NPCs, not raiding bands) while Bargle is still hanging around in Karameikos, looting what he can and picking through his (and Ludwig's) hidden stashes around the countryside of weapons and magical items. >Charmed and Dominated pawns in a position to hear things would also be useful (Charmed servants in the Duke/King's household, for example, who overhear things and pass on information. . .) Hmmm. That's good. >I mean, lets face it, whenever Bargle or Ludwig show up someplace as themselves, the characters will know something's up. But what if that "kindly old sage" feeding them information and tips (that *seem* initially to lead them in the right direction) is *really* Bargle in disguise? One of the PCs -- without him being aware of it yet -- has a personal connection to Bargle, so I'll likely have him show up as himself ONCE just to get that ball rolling, chalking it up to Bargle being extremely cocky around 1st level PCs whose heroic career has consisted, mostly, of running away very fast. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:28:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Despotic Nations. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:26:44 Evil Genius wrote: >>> Since James already listed Alphatia as not being a tyranny in a list in another post (Sind being the only one), << > >That was Agathokles, I think. > Oops, yes. My apologies... To both of you. >>> I guess a different term is required. What if I said 'Oppressive nations' instead? << > >Moral equivilency, eh? All nations are opressive to one degree or another, so all nations are equal in their opressiveness? I'm not sure that works. Some Animals are More Equal Than Others. > >Agathokles also proposed the term "Despot" (and by extention "Despotic/Despotate") - that would be more apt. Examples: > >Darokin is not Despotic. >Glantri is not a Despotate but its constituent Principalities are Despotates. > Hmmm. I'm starting to think that 'unjust' is really the term I'm looking for... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:21:33 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: New spell: Unlight MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This spell is getting put in a wand in my Wit's End adventure for the Five Shires. Its name, of course, comes from the old Scott Adams adventure games ("the opposite of Light is Unlight") and will be used by a crazed shipwrecked halfling pirate on the PCs' light source(s) as they enter a dark cave that will be occupied by a shadow grue once the room goes dark. (The pirate will shut a light-tight hatch when he flees from the ledge above cave floor.) But I figured that this spell might show up later on IMC, so I might as well make this as workable as I can. I envision this being a rare spell only because it's of limited use, but is otherwise commonly available at the GSoM and at other magical schools, as well as being available through divine magic. Unlight Transmutation Level: Assassin 1, Blackguard 1, Clr 1, Wiz 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: All light sources within a 20 ft. radius Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell causes light sources to be suddenly extinguished in a 20-foot radius. Light sources automatically affected include (but are not limited to) candles, torches, lanterns, tindertwigs, dancing lights, light spells, and faerie fire. Larger light sources -- such as bonfires, sunrods, continual flame and daylight spells -- require a dispel check. The dispel check is 1d20 + 1 per caster level (maximum +5) against a DC of 11 + spell level + the spell's caster level for spells. For other light sources, use the following DCs: Light source DC Bonfire 15 Sunrod 20 Nothing prevents a light source that can be relit being relit after being affected by this spell, and light sources beyond the area of effect are unaffected -- thus, sunlight, moonlight and starlight are never affected by this spell. Focus: An extinguished black or gray candle. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:38:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: The De-Bargleization In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:19 11/5/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >2) Bargle: for him, another possibility is to make lots of use of the spell Magic Jar (idea: cast Feeblemind on the victim, followed by Magic Jar, that makes maintaining control so much easier). Then commit whatever crimes he wants to in the body of someone else (an innocent victim, a good and decent guy, someone who's loyal and honorable), who then gets convicted of the crimes (kills two birds with one stone: Bargle commits the vile deed, but isn't seen anywhere near it so his presence doesn't raise suspicions, simoultaniously scapgoating and framing someone else and eliminating that person as well). BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:51:47 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > Mystara wrote: > >> Ericall, IMO, is not a tyrant. Why? Simply because he has no absolute power, as Norwold is just a part of the Alphatian Empire. As such, Ericall is just an Alphatian satrap, and a mundaner one, kept under the control of the Council through his (magically endowed) advisor (Madiera) and wife (Alanira). << > > I'm not sure about that, especially in the "modern" (post-WotI) era. Sorry, I'm considering CM1 status, the developments doesn't matter much (if he is a legitimate ruler as an Alphatian satrap, he stays that way after becoming semi-independent). > For one thing, by the classical Greek definition, foreign powers setting up Tyrannts to rule over certain places didn't make them any less Tyrannts. A Tyrant is a formally (at least) independent ruler, one who ascends from the rank of private citizen to that of monarch. This is not the case of Ericall (Alpha was already an Alphatian colony when he moved in). > Alphatia *claims*, but doesn't really *control* Norwold Nor does Ericall, for that matter... (they want to control it, same as Hosadus wants to control Sind and Darokin and the same way Denagoth might want to control Norwold. If the Shadow Lord of Denagoth sent someone to be "King of Norwold", would we see that person as not a Tyrannt?) No, it's different: Norwold is an essentially unpopulated region, which is being colonized by Alphatians (and Thyatians, too, see Oceansend). BTW, would a conqueror/colonizer be different from a tyrant? I think so. > Ericall, like Stefan, doles out portions of Norwold to his cronies, But hwe doesn't take it away from native rulers (he doesn't set Lernal as he ruler of Oceansend, for example). > He even claims authority over Oceansend. . . But he doesn't enforce it, though you could argue that it is just because he is inept... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:57:23 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > David Knot wrote: > >> Karameikos: No -- Stefan was "given" authority over Karameikos by > the Emperor Thincol, who inherited rule of that province by right of > prior conquest. << > > Actually, rulers put in power by outside powers were, in the classical (Greek) definition of the term, Tyrannts. Thyatis is not a foreign power when Stefan becomes Archduke, since Traladara was already a duchy/province/colony of the Empire. So, Stefan is no more of a Tyrant than his successor as Duke of Machetos. > Similarly, Stefan elivating himself as King is a classical act of a Tyrant (such as the real Agathocles, Tyrannt of Syracuse). Not really, Stefan's step is quite short (from independent Archduke to King), while Agathocles' makes the jump from private citizen (he was an officer, IIRC) to monarch. Essentially, Stefan change is more "cosmetic" than real, though it proves useful in letting himself to be looked as an independent power, while before he was seen as a vassal of Thyatis (which he wasn't, though). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:00:12 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > I play in 1013, at the end of TSR's continuity. In that period, Stephan > Karameikos has broken with Thyatis and is actively trying to force the two > ethnic groups to think of themselves as one group, although he's undercut > by some of his nobles, most notably Kelvin and his wife. BTW, who is Desmond Kelvin's wife? (I only have the Gaz, where Desmond isn't married, and is trying to marry Stefan's daughter). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:04:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Despotic Nations. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > >> Since James already listed Alphatia as not being a tyranny in a list in another post (Sind being the only one), << > > That was Agathokles, I think. It was David Knot, actually, though I agree that Alphatia cannot be considered a tyranny, though it has an oppressive government (probably one of the most oppressive on Mystara, on par with Hule). > Agathokles also proposed the term "Despot" (and by extention "Despotic/Despotate") - that would be more apt. Examples: > > Darokin is not Despotic. > Glantri is not a Despotate but its constituent Principalities are Despotates. Right. Ethengar and Karameikos are the only other despotates in the Known World, I'd say. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:06:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Oppressive nations (was: Tyrannies of Mystara) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: > > What if I said 'Oppressive nations' instead? Note that I would apply oppressive no matter whether the ruler is good or evil. Thus, Karameikos would be oppressive even though Stefan is a good king, because his rule is unjust (it favors the Thyatian settlers), and Darokin would be too because only those with enough money can influence the nation's political decisions. That works for most countries, both in Mystara and in the real world, unfortunately :) Still, most of them aren't considered "oppressive" by their inhabitants. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:17:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Thyatis Character Reference website opens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Warning: > If you are an Alphatian, the content of this site > could prove dangerous to > all of > your senses. > Tests conducted on 100 Alphatian wizards have proved > that reading an > article > written by James leads to temporarily loss of > reason. It also causes most > wizards to babble aimlessely while trying to cast > spells. A strange > countereffect, > appeared in 13.4% of the subjects, is respiratory > problems. If you have 100 test subjects, how do 13.4% get respiatory problems? 0.4% think they should have trouble breathing? :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:05:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Desmond Kelvin (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) In-Reply-To: <3A05D86C.7FA3C472@libero.it> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:00 11/5/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: >Beau Yarbrough wrote: >> >> I play in 1013, at the end of TSR's continuity. In that period, Stephan >> Karameikos has broken with Thyatis and is actively trying to force the two >> ethnic groups to think of themselves as one group, although he's undercut >> by some of his nobles, most notably Kelvin and his wife. > >BTW, who is Desmond Kelvin's wife? (I only have the Gaz, where Desmond >isn't married, and is trying to marry Stefan's daughter). Oops. By "wife" I meant Stephan's wife, Olivia. IIRC, in KKoA, Desmond is still single and cranky. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Injust Nations? >> Hmmm. I'm starting to think that 'unjust' is really the term I'm looking for...<< Only problem with that is that injustice is like opression: it's bound to exist to one degree or another, difference being in degree and type (for example, Glantri is injust to dwarves and clerics, and to non-mages only to the degree that they don't let them rule; Alphatia is more just to dwarves and clerics, but adds in some extra injustices on non-spellcasters that aren't found in Glantri. I guess it depends which kinds one finds more offensive as to which injustice one finds to be worse). Darokin isn't really injust in a pointed way (by which I mean injustice isn't institutionalized, and even the non-wealthy aren't treated injustly; laws are fair and even-handed, and the wealthy guys in charge are said to look out for the welfare of all rather than just the interests of themselves or their class). Folks could point to ways in which they think Darokinian society is injust or isn't a perfectly just society, but the point is that it is more just than many others (it'd be fun to see someone argue that Darokin is equally injust as Denagoth or Hulean-occupied Sind are, or that the forms of injustice found in the Five Shires or Rockhome are equally pernicious to those found in Glantri or the Azcan Empire). One might say that, for example, the society of Yavdlom is very just: people aren't ranked by accident of birth or some other societal factor, but rather by the Decree of Fate and Destiny, factors that aren't "socially determined". But on the other hand people might see the society of Yavdlom as very injust for the same reason: people are categorized as either mattering. . .or not mattering, based on the whims of fate, and with people not seen as being able to even partially control their own destiny and alter it, this condemns many to feelings of hopelessness and worthlessness which they aren't so consigned in other societies. In other words, depending upon one's own philosophical perspective, what one might see as a more just situation than some alternative, another person might see as a less just or injust situation. For example, to return to Darokin, I see their society as fairly just: the laws govern everyone, wealthy and not, and oportunity is open for anyone to succeed and have influence, and there is charity and generosity towards those who don't. But others will look at the "disparities of weath" which bring with it "disparities of power", resulting in a Plutocracy of wealth, and see that as injust, with some winning the "lottery of life" while others are "left behind", with the Republic being a sham and a mask for power, concealing the inequities and all that, and that Darokinian society follows a hypocritical "propaganda model" that gets people to accept these conditions when they shouldn't, while other nations are at least more honest about how power is aquired and wielded. So "injustice" as a standard is not likely to lead to agreement, because opinions will vary regarding what constitutes injustice and what types of it are more severe and onerous, and whether some are ineradicable without creating a worse sort of injustice or whether social perfectability is possible (and desirable), &tc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara >> No, it's different: Norwold is an essentially unpopulated region, which is being colonized by Alphatians (and Thyatians, too, see Oceansend). << Well, again, by CM1 status, it isn't unpopulated; when the various dominions are handed out, one rolls 1d100 for starting population per hex. Leading to an average of 253 persons per hex "at the start". This is the local population - the hexes aren't assumed to be uninhabited, with only imigrants to start a new population in an unpopulated area. What position do the barbarian leaders, like Barkal the Red, have in the New Norwold? I'd say roughly the same status as the Old Traladaran Families in the New Traladara AKA Karameikos. >> But he doesn't take it away from native rulers (he doesn't set Lernal as he ruler of Oceansend, for example). << Were the local populations all in anarchy when the PCs and other characters given their dominions? I don't know, myself, in retrospect I tend to doubt it (though I have to admit that at the time we ran the modules, well over a decade ago, I didn't give this any thought at all - just assumed that the folks were waiting for the PCs to show up and accepted them as ligitimate). If they were ungoverned anarchies, it's probably because they sort of liked it that way. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:07:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara Oh, I forgot one other thing: >> Sorry, I'm considering CM1 status, the developments doesn't matter much (if he is a legitimate ruler as an Alphatian satrap, he stays that way after becoming semi-independent). << IMO, emphasis is on the "IF" part of "if he is a legitimate ruler". I'm not sure he is, just because his mother sent him and called him King of Norwold doesn't automatically make his rule their ligitimate. Norwoldian Peasant: "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. If I were to go around calling myself 'Emperor' just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!" I'm not even sure he counts as the ligitimate King of Norwold (as opposed to, PERHAPS, King of Alpha) on the basis of Right of Conquest - since it's clear (especially in the PWA era) that hardly any of Norwold is actually under his control beyond Cape Alpha. Can one ligitimize one's claims by conquering a place? Perhaps, depending on one's point of view. But, remember, accepting that means accepting Hule's control of Sind as equally ligitimate (and at least Hule controls all of the Sind that they claim to, so they've managed to impose their ligitimacy by force in a way that Ericall & Alphatia - or, earlier, Thyatis with Oceansend - never managed). Is a "Sword-won Kingdom" a tyranny? Is it a Despotism? Again, just because Sparta (a "foreign power") sponsored Tyrannts as such in various cities and made them theirby dependencies of Sparta while the Tyrannts reigned did not make the sponsored Tyrannts into non-Tyrrants. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos >> Thyatis is not a foreign power when Stefan becomes Archduke, since Traladara was already a duchy/province/colony of the Empire. So, Stefan is no more of a Tyrant than his successor as Duke of Machetos. << I'm not sure that the locals looked at it that way when Stefan anounced his rulership over them and his plans to disposess them. Thus the revolt (which the previous Thyatian administration hadn't precipitated, but which Stefan's announcement of "rule" and of his regime did). >> Not really, Stefan's step is quite short (from independent Archduke to King), while Agathocles' makes the jump from private citizen (he was an officer, IIRC) to monarch. Essentially, Stefan change is more "cosmetic" than real. << Is it, though? Titles were taken very seriously - very very seriously - in the societies that used them. Stefan's crowning of himself as King is thus somewhat akin to Napoleon crowning himself Emperor - which was very shockingly irregular at the time (he even had the traditional religious authorities at hand to perform the coronation and thus ligitimize it, but he snatched the crown and performed a self-coronation, which was shocking and disturbing). Self-elevation is a typical act of the Tyrant, though. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Despotic Nations. > >> Since James already listed Alphatia as not being a tyranny in a list in another post (Sind being the only one), > That was Agathokles, I think. >>It was David Knott, actually, << Oh, ok, sorry for the confusion. >> though I agree that Alphatia cannot be considered a tyranny, though it has an oppressive government (probably one of the most oppressive on Mystara, on par with Hule). << Ok. >> Right. Ethengar and Karameikos are the only other despotates in the Known World, I'd say. << That partly depends, I think, on what one includes in "Known World" - for example, if one considers Denagoth part of the "Known World", it would qualify as a Despotism. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:35:03 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_50.ce3b8b6.27373a97_boundary" --part1_50.ce3b8b6.27373a97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/00 3:04:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > You said he was a generally benevolent guy, I think. I was pointing out that > betrayal and selling out one's allies are not normally considered > benevolent acts. Nor is turning one's back on a friend when he needs you > most. > > Poor Stefan Karameikos has to be the one NPC most trod upon by Mystara canon. Back in the old days of the light blue Expert Set, he was the "good guy ruler" opposed by the "bad guy ruler," that despicable Black Eagle off at the western border of his domain. For some inexplicable reason, TSR decided to let Baron von Hendriks rule roughshod for forty (40!!!!) years. Foolish and illogical, but covering up this goof by saying the Stefan can't see evil in others was utterly ridiculous, and the poor guy's paying for it now. His alignment is Lawful Good. He's done all sorts of noble things for his subjects--Traladaran and Thyatian alike--and tried to be fair to both ethnicities. He IS benevolent. He's SUPPOSED TO be a "Good Guy." Unfortunately, later canon let him down. Still, I think that trying to paint him as some malevolent tyrant is way off base. If Karameikos was indeed an autonomous nation during WotI, I don't see how Stefan "betrayed" or "sold out" anyone; he did what he thought was right for his nation and people. As for turning his back on a friend...I have mixed feelings on that charge so I'll pass for now ;) --part1_50.ce3b8b6.27373a97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/00 3:04:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes:


You said he was a generally benevolent guy, I think. I was pointing out that
betrayal and selling out one's allies are not normally considered
benevolent acts. Nor is turning one's back on a friend when he needs you
most.



Poor Stefan Karameikos has to be the one NPC most trod upon by Mystara canon.
 Back in the old days of the light blue Expert Set, he was the "good guy
ruler" opposed by the "bad guy ruler," that despicable  Black Eagle off at
the western border of his domain.  For some inexplicable reason, TSR decided
to let Baron von Hendriks rule roughshod for forty (40!!!!) years.  Foolish
and illogical, but covering up this goof by saying the Stefan can't see evil
in others was utterly ridiculous, and the poor guy's paying for it now.

His alignment is Lawful Good.  He's done all sorts of noble things for his
subjects--Traladaran and Thyatian alike--and tried to be fair to both
ethnicities.  He IS benevolent.  He's SUPPOSED TO be a "Good Guy."

Unfortunately, later canon let him down.  Still, I think that trying to paint
him as some malevolent tyrant is way off base.  If Karameikos was indeed an
autonomous nation during WotI, I don't see how Stefan "betrayed" or "sold
out" anyone; he did what he thought was right for his nation and people.

As for turning his back on a friend...I have mixed feelings on that charge so
I'll pass for now ;) --part1_50.ce3b8b6.27373a97_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos >> Black Eagle off at the western border of his domain. For some inexplicable reason, TSR decided to let Baron von Hendriks rule roughshod for forty (40!!!!) years. << Even AC 1000 would be thirty of them. Rather a long time, yes, for Stefan to let him rule roughshod as his vassal. >> Foolish and illogical, but covering up this goof by saying the Stefan can't see evil in others was utterly ridiculous, and the poor guy's paying for it now. << Well, the other possibility is that he let it go willingly and knowingly: so that he could seem good by comparison, perhaps. Thus the Black Eagle is used to prop up Stefan's rule: Traladarans might say "yah, but at least he's better than the Black Baron, and if we're to chose between those alternatives, I'll support Stefan." - failing to make the connection that Stefan is responsible for appointing (and then ignoring/not removing) Ludwig to begin with (possibly with "storytellers"/minstrels sent out by Stefan or Olivia or both promoting this version and discouraging people to enquire mentally into the reasons why Ludwig is a ruler in Karameikos). Then the "he can't see evil on others" bit is a backstop used if people do start to wonder why, and it becomes an "endering" trait ("Well, Ludwig is Stefan's cousin, the poor Duke, can we blame him for not seeing his own cousin as a bad man? Can we blame him for being reluctant to act against him?" Meanwhile, in Halag, the depredations continue, and Stefan continues to turn a blind eye to them, and continues to benifit by looking good by comparison). >> His alignment is Lawful Good. << I don't judge what people list their alignment as, I judge their actions and behavior and see that as determinative of alignment. Like you yourself, one has to have questions about a man who turns his back on a friend in the time of that friend's greatest need, especially when that friend has been very generous to you, and that generousity has benifited you greatly (Stefan has Traladara/Karameikos because of that generousity. Machetos in trade notwithstanding, its clear who got the better part of the deal, and thus who has benifited from generousity. Stefan pays back his friend when its crunch time, when the chips are down by. . .to me, behavior when it matters is what determines alignment). >> He's done all sorts of noble things for his subjects--Traladaran and Thyatian alike--and tried to be fair to both ethnicities. He IS benevolent. He's SUPPOSED TO be a "Good Guy." << Well, its harder to find examples of truly noble things than it is to find examples of dubious behavior (did his takeover benifit the Traladaran Families? Are they better off than they would have otherwise been, in ways that *Stefan* is responsible?) I can point to episodes where Stefan and his Kingdom have benifited from good fortune more than I can from his good/noble behavior (Stefan's actions did lead to Karameikos aquiring a School of Magic, but that was the pay-off for turning his back on his homeland and friend; one hardly credits a villian for benifiting from taking a bribe that benifits him or his nation; I.E. one wouldn't see Hosadus as a good guy if Hule prospered due to a similar payoff). But most of what has built up Karameikos has been based on lucky brakes more than Stefan's good rulership, and the misfortunes of others (Karameikos benifited from elven refugees from Alfheim; Stefan lifts not a finger to help those refugees recover their homeland, but rather uses them as a useful tool to clean out monster-infested wilderness, and interposes them as a buffer between him and Thyatis in case Thincol ever has thoughts of paying Stefan back for his wartime actions. Karameikos benifits from the sinking of Alphatia,! ! because Tylion IV/"Terari" comes to head the SoM - again, misfortune of others leading to prosperity for Karameikos). One could go on. >> Unfortunately, later canon let him down. Still, I think that trying to paint him as some malevolent tyrant is way off base. << >> If Karameikos was indeed an autonomous nation during WotI, I don't see how Stefan "betrayed" or "sold out" anyone; he did what he thought was right for his nation and people. << Even if he was completely independent, he was Allied to Thyatis by treaty (see Gaz1, "The Grand Duchy of Karameikos", p.13: "Both rulers signed decrees of eternal friendship and mutual defense in times of invasion, and the deal was set." Stefan broke this alliance/treaty.) Anyone can list themselves as whatever alignment, but if I had a player who listed himself as Lawful Good, and then behaved as a irresponsible Liege over his Vassals, letting them get away with whatever, that isn't Lawful behavior. And if they broke alliances and turned their back on their friends, that I wouldn't see as Good. Stefan might be Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral (sometimes he does good things, some times he does. . .non-good things, to be polite about it. Sometimes he keeps his word/treaties, sometimes he doesn't. That's Chaotic. Believing in the power of Luck - which Karameikos the person and the country have both benifited from - is, in OD&D terms, a Chaotic attribute). As for later canon, later canon let a lot of us down, so I sympathize with you on that. 8-) Alignment, however, is determined by behavior - especially behavior when it matters. Can evil people be kind and generous, especially when it doesn't "cost" them anything much? But what are their actions when push comes to shove? Even evil guys can be loyal to their friends and not break treaties when it doesn't cost them anything, but what do they do when the chips are down, and people count on them to fullfill their oaths (treaty) and be a true and faithful friend? What *does* one think of a Liege who washes his hands of matters regarding the behavior of his own vassals, leaving the mess (Ludwig) for others (the Hin) to clean up ("clean up" here means letting them do the fighting and dying)? Later canon benifited Karameikos greatly, but sure did create a bad impression of Stefan's character and behavior. Later canon indeed let a lot of us down. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:20:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Bargle >> Well, at this point (the summer of 1013), Bargle and Ludwig are actively thwarting each other's plans. Ludwig is working IMC through humanoids sent from the Broken Lands and Glantri (all exceptional NPCs, not raiding bands) << Ahh, ok. That's true. Well perhaps some of that Ludwig-related advice will be helpful to someone out there. I'm glad you found my Bargle-related stuff useful. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:24:19 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 11:30:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > Actually, rulers put in power by outside powers were, in the classical (Greek) > definition of the term, Tyrannts. Similarly, Stefan elivating himself as > King is a classical act of a Tyrant (such as the real Agathocles, Tyrannt of > Syracuse). As Grand Duke he acquired his rulership legitimately, by a grant from the Emperor Thincol (and Thyatis had controlled Traladara for over seventy years at that time). Proclaiming himself as King was an illegitimate act -- but I overlooked it because it had no practical effect on its own, it simply reinforced the other actions (selling out Thyatis) that he was taking at the time. But I will readily grant the unjust nature of most of the acts you listed for the "Lawful" Stefan.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Eric Anondson wrote: > Another Mystaraspace related question. I was reading on starflung that > Bruce Heard had posted once that some Alphatian mages performed some > unbelievable magic spell which filled the void of Mystaraspace with > atmosphere. Still leaving the Skyshields intact I guess... Gah, Noo!! People keep confusing things. "Mystaraspace" is a non-canon construct. Period. It's a conjecture, and the word "Mystaraspace" has never been written anywhere in an official product. The Alphatians filled the space of their _home_plane_ with air. Alphatian home plane != Mystara's prime plane. Old Alphatia is an outer plane, beyond the Astral. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:52:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace Reposts from 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ahh. Now I understand. Bruce's ideas are not canon ideas - The only canon references to space travel in Mystara's Solar System are found in Champions of Mystara, the Princess Ark series, and a few small lines in Dawn of the Emperors. Each one of these references (most by Bruce himself) do mention the existence of a vaccum beyond the skyshield. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:02:39 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos (and elsewhere) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 6:24:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kaviyd writes: > As Grand Duke he acquired his rulership legitimately, by a grant from > the Emperor Thincol (and Thyatis had controlled Traladara for over > seventy years at that time). Proclaiming himself as King was an > illegitimate act -- but I overlooked it because it had no practical > effect on its own, it simply reinforced the other actions (selling out > Thyatis) that he was taking at the time. > > But I will readily grant the unjust nature of most of the acts you listed > for the "Lawful" Stefan.... This message got away from me while I was still composing and revising it. The gist of the planned revision was that Stefan's succession was as legitimate or otherwise as the original Thyatian control over Traladara. Since Thincol was willing to give Stefan independent control of that region, its inhabitants could not have been Thyatian citizens (as it would be very much against imperial policy to give away a land inhabited by citizens) -- so even after seventy years Traladara was still a conquered territory and not an assimilated dominion of the Empire. On that basis we actually have quite a few Mystaran rulers who would qualify as usurpers in the classic sense: Stefan Ericall Tanadaleyo (according to the previous, not current, inhabitants of her realm) Hosadus (in Sind -- in Hule he is legitimate) Eusebius (in Alatians and other conquered territories) Broderick (in Esterhold and other places) Did I leave out any other usurpers in the Known World region? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:41:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Mystaraspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:44:44 -0600, Eric Anondson wrote: <> Hi Eric! Well, long ago Haavard and I started detailing Mystaraspace and its planets, but it seems that project got lost halfway.=20 Anyway, I've got a nice Mystaraspace description in my site (a bit outdated, I admit), so check it out at the URL in my signature (click on Spelljammer and Mystara on the left bar). <> Well, old Immortal described the system as equal to the terrestrial solar system, but added another planet, Charon, after Neptune. we've mantained that outline in our descriptions. However, currently I have revised a couple of ideas about the system, and I wanted to add another planet, but I haven't put anything down yet.. <> The Emerondians and Alphatians only, as far as we know. There are some Myoshiman Rakastas as well (Myoshima being Matera, the invisible second moon of Mystara). The Pyrithian Archipelago, according to my theories, is a ring of asteroids that orbited around Damocles, which then exploded forming the Asteroid Belt of our solar system (between Mars and Jupiter). When it exploded (in AC 1009, due to the crisis in WotI), some of the Pyrithians tried to escape using Voidships, but got caught in a time rift and landed on Mystara... 300 years before the destruction of their world! That's why Haldemar said the Emerondians had lived in Davania for a couple of centuries before he met= them! Anyway, this is the layout of Mystaraspace according to the Old Immortal Set (and WotI didn't change anything about it since it didn't deal with it):= =20 Real Name (Mystaran proposed one) Sun (Ixion) Mercury (Alphatia) [to be formed after Damocles' explosion] Venus (Valerias) Earth (Mystara) Mars (Tarastia) Damocles (Asterius) Asteroid Belt (Tears of Asterius) [formed after Damocles' explosion] Jupiter (Vanya) Saturn (Khoronus) Uranus (Hel's World) Neptune (Protius) Pluto (Alphaks) [formed after Damocles' explosion] Charon (Thanatos)=20 As u can see, the two new planets formed (Pluto and Mercury) have been given by Thyatian astronomers the name of their nemesis, Alphatia, and of its destroyer, Alphaks, in an ironic way to suggest what's become of them after 1009 AC. As for the races living there, I can just mention fire elementals, azers and efreets living in the sun and colonizing Mercury, intelligent saurials living on Venus, sand folk and gnomes on Mars, many different races on Damocles (some surviving in its asteroids, including Pyrithian pirates, Alphatian geomancers*, and giffs), faerie, faenare, dragons and hawkmen living on Jupiter, beholders living on Saturn, cryons, beastmen, goblinoids, humans and neogi living on Uranus, Alphatian hydromancers* and underwater races living on Neptune and Damoclites survivors living on Pluto, but threatened by some strange lifeforms from nearby Charon (something like the Mi-go, Fungi from Yuggoth). All of this is purely speculative, devised by Haavard and me, of course. :) *Geomancers and Hydromancers are the two lost sects that lived in Alphatiaspace. Followers of Fire settled in Glantri on Mystara, and Followers of Air settled in Alphatia on Mystara. Followers of Rock settled on Damocles while Followers of Wave settled on Neptune, turning it into Waterworld basically. I'd add another planet, which uses the same orbit of Mystara: Aelos (from CM6). The reason is simple: Aelos is Mystara's twin planet, and it was so important for the Immortals in CM6 just for this reason. They have many followers on Aelos much like they have on MYstara, it's a sort of a backup system if u want (if anything goes bad on one planet, they still have got followers on the other), and Mystarans don't know of it (and Aelosians don't know of Mystara as well) because they are not so advanced to spot it. I have also made many speculations about the nature of Mystaraspace and its universe to integrate it with Spelljammer (also on my page), but at the moment I am rethinking them...=20 Basically, I think Mystaraspace is contained inside a crystal sphere and there are no other galaxies out there, as old Immortal said (I use SJR cosmology). What leaves me unsatisfied is the outer planes where the Immortals dwell... I don't know how to integrate PScape with Mystara D&D outer planes.. And finally, about skyships: Mystarans do not know how to reach spelljamming speed yet. Their skyships use primitive motive powers (permanent fly spells) that are able to attain a max of SR 1 in Voidspace. This means they travel around 500 yards per round, but even at this incredible speed, it takes about one month to arrive to the nearst moon, so interplanetar travel is unlikely (while spelljammers can travel 100 millions miles per day!). They prefer to use planar travel than spelljamming speed.=20 However, I suppose Vanya's artifact is able to propel the Warbirds to spelljamming speed (altho their SR remains 1), even though Mystaraspace features (below 0=B0C temperature and lack of air envelope to vessels) makes it very difficult for ships which are not fully enclosed like the Heldannic Warbirds and Birds of Prey. I hope I'll be able to post my revisioned view of Mystaraspace and travel means one day :) PS: I've translated ALL of the skyships in boxed set Champions of Mystara into SJR, using Leroy's modified rules, which to me are FAR better than old SJR vague rules of construction and hyper-complicated D&D rules for building skyships. It seems (just to compare some numbers) that an Alphatian Man-o-War is just as big as an Elven Armada, while an Heldannic Warbird is rougly 30 tons (don't have the numbers right now). Finally, Azlum Swith's geodome is impressing for the defenses and attack modes it has, and it's around 100 tons. That's all folks! DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:29:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatis Character Reference website opens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:17:04 Chris Furneaux wrote: >> Warning: >> If you are an Alphatian, the content of this site >> could prove dangerous to >> all of >> your senses. >> Tests conducted on 100 Alphatian wizards have proved >> that reading an >> article >> written by James leads to temporarily loss of >> reason. It also causes most >> wizards to babble aimlessely while trying to cast >> spells. A strange >> countereffect, >> appeared in 13.4% of the subjects, is respiratory >> problems. > >If you have 100 test subjects, how do 13.4% get >respiatory problems? 0.4% think they should have >trouble breathing? :) > Because two of my five multiple personalities showed signs of this, while the other three were fine... Like the man said, "I'm a schizophrenic... and so am I!" ;) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:13:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Archives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several days ago, someone mentioned the link to the archives of the MML, but naturally I didn't note it down :( Can anyone tell me what it is, please? - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:27:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, The Stalker wrote: > Several days ago, someone mentioned the link to the archives of the MML, but naturally I didn't note it down :( dnd.starflung.com Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Usurpers >> But I will readily grant the unjust nature of most of the acts you listed for the "Lawful" Stefan....<< Ok. No need for me to quibble over semantics anymore than I already have. 8-) >> This message got away from me while I was still composing and revising it. << That happens. For me, it's usually the "oh! I should add this, too" thing that pops to mind right after I hit send. *mutter* >> On that basis we actually have quite a few Mystaran rulers who would qualify as usurpers in the classic sense: << Hmmmn. . .back to semantics, I'm not sure how many of those would qualify as usurpers by definition. A usurper is an internal opponent who displaces the ligitimate ruler and gains power by illigitimate means (coup, revolt, and the like). While Kitan ul Nervi reigned in Sind as the Master of Hule's puppet, he was a usurper. Hildric Vendor would be a usurper if he overthrew Oran Meditor. But the Master of Hule is not a usurper in Sind - he's a conqueror. Of those you list, it could be said that Tanadaleyo comes closest to being a usurper, reigning in Aengmor, but that's not really the case either (she's closer to being, to use a term Agathokles used recently, a Satrap of the conquering power); the Shadow Elves conquered Alfheim, it could be said that they "usurped control over Alfheim's territory" in the process, but Tanadaleyo isn't a usurper, since she doesn't rule illigitimately over Alfheim - she rules a conquered nation, in the name of the conquering power. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:36:09 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6a.82ab8a4.27377319_boundary" --part1_6a.82ab8a4.27377319_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crap! Let me apologize in advance. I upgraded to AOL 6.0, and it quotes other emails by indenting and putting a long blue line beside the quotes text. I have no idea what my quoted text looks like to people who have normal email systems... In a message dated 11/5/00 6:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > >> His alignment is Lawful Good. << > > I don't judge what people list their alignment as, I judge their actions > and behavior and see that as determinative of alignment. >> LOL. When I first read this, I took you to mean that Stefan Karameikos would list his alignment as Lawful Good if given the chance. (And I'm pretty sure you think he WOULD, and I'm not sure I'd disagree ;). Canon Mystara sources have listed him as "Lawful" and "Good" as far as I can remember, so I doubt they're typos. Some of his actions might be questionable for a purported Lawful Do-Gooder, but I'm still convinced that Stefan should be generally labeled as Good. Like you yourself, one has to have questions about a man who turns his back on a > friend in the time of that friend's greatest need, especially when that > friend has been very generous to you, and that generousity has benifited > you greatly (Stefan has Traladara/Karameikos because of that generousity. > Machetos in trade notwithstanding, its clear who got the better part of the > deal, and thus who has benifited from generousity. Stefan pays back his > friend when its crunch time, when the chips are down by. . .to me, behavior > I agree that Stefan made out on the Traladara-for-Machetos deal, but we're both looking at it with 20/20 hindsight. Thincol thought he got the best of the deal at the time it was made (in fact, I believe canon says both men thought they got the best of the bargain--I've gotta do this from memory as much of my gaming stuff is scattered to the four winds but I have no fear that James will pick up any errors I make ;). On paper, it certainly looked that way: he got an established domain in the empire proper while Stefan got some woodlands filled with werewolves, vampires, and Traladarans (oh my!). If Stefan were to one day come out on top in this deal, he'd have to work his butt off--and he did by building roads, establishing dominions to tame some of the wilderness, and, later, establishing a fine magic school. <> Admittedly, I don't know exactly how mutual defense treaties are worded, but the quote above specifies "invasion." Alphatia didn't exactly invade Thyatis; their beef was with Glantri, and Thyatis chose to step in. Plus, Thyatis declared war on Alphatia first, not the other way around. This was a fight that Thyatis chose; should Karameikos be expected to pay the consequences? If Alphatia had launched an assault against Thyatis instead of Glantri or possibly even if Alphatia had declared war on Thyatis first, I'd be more inclined to agree with your assessment. <> Apply these words to Thincol when he made the Traladara/Machetos trade. Was he taking advantage of his gung-ho, change-the-world "friend?" I think so, to an extent (though I also think he was giving Stefan an opportunity). Did Thincol believe the Traladarans would simply accept this outsider who rode into Mirror Bay in a fleet of ships to claim rulership over the land? I doubt it. Did he offer to send some Thyatian troops to help quell the native rebellion? No. Even after the locals attempted to assassinate his "dear friend" Stefan? No. Why not, if Stefan was such a dear friend of his? Simple: because the Traladaran uprising was Stefan's problem. It goes with the territory when you try to carve out your own dominion. It wasn't Thincol's affair. And I agree with that assessment. I just don't see Stefan's failure to aid Thyatis as being much different. If Thincol chose to intervene in the Glantri/Alphatia conflict and declare war on Alphatia...hey, that's fine. His call. When the empire takes a licking and the Alphatians proceed to push into Thyatis' back door...well, I think it's a bit of a stretch labelling that an "invasion." The war with Alphatia was Thincol's affair...and Stefan wisely stayed out of it. When he decided this war wasn't Karameikos' fight, Stefan had few options other than to declare himself king. His domain was still called the "Grand Duchy" at that point...and it's a good bet the Alphatians wouldn't think his lands were a vassal-state of Darokin or the Shires.... A few other consideration that Stefan probably had: 1) Karameikos' military strength was insignificant compared with Alphatia's. 2) Karameikos probably had similar treaties with Darokin and the Shires, its other neighbors. And Darokin WAS flat-out invaded by the Master's minions. 3) Stefan spent 35 years of his life transforming the wilds of Traladara into the semblance of a true nation. He also has a wife and 3 children. Siding with Thincol meant throwing away everything he had accomplished. And it would've been a gesture of friendship, nothing more--their armed forces would do little for Thyatis. (I can't quite picture the mighty Karameikan army yelling, "For Zirchev!" and shooting down Alphatian skyships with bows and arrows.) <> <> On these two examples, I'm willing to concede some points :) I've already said how stupid and unbelievable canon is to state that Stefan remains ignorant of the Black Eagle's atrocities. In a world of clairvoyance and wizard eyes, this just isn't possible. Your theory that he knew and used the Black Eagle's bad reputation to make himself look better by comparison makes about as much sense as anything, but it doesn't go with his published alignment. At the same time, I'm unwilling to embrace the lame-o canon explanation about "Stefan can't see evil in others." If you tried to sell this story to a publisher or movie studio, they'd laugh you out of the office. The pieces don't add up. Unless Stefan's got a split personality, maybe. The Shire Solution example's a great one. Tactically-speaking, having the Shires sack his cousin is a great move--Stefan doesn't have to use his own troops and can thus guard against reprisals from a vengeful Thincol. Alignment-wise, I'll concede that it's iffy at best. I chalk it down as another piece of "That Old Karameikan Magic" luck: Stefan offers the grieved Shires first crack at their common nemesis and the hin take it. Again, Stefan is spared from making a tough decision. In conclusion, I'll concede that Stefan ain't no saint. And I'll admit that his more recent actions aren't 100% in line with his LG alignment. But I'll stick to my belief that he's basically a benevolent guy...not some sceming, power-hungry tyrant. Ah hell, I'll even concede that his recent "good deeds" do have the smell of PR stunts to them, but I still think Stefan's mainly an idealist who's finally beginning to realize what the real world around him is like. BTW, I pretty much hate what Karameikos has become. Their run of good luck is sickening. Also, because I prefer low-level games, I depise the influx of displaced Alphatian super-wizards and, to a lesser degree, the displaced Alfheim elves. The setting's not what it used to be, its ruler ain't what he used to be...but I don't think he's evil. P.S. I've just been handed a note reminding me that it was Stefan who sent bread to the starving Thyatian masses during the dreaded mummy rot plague. ;) --part1_6a.82ab8a4.27377319_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crap!  Let me apologize in advance.  I upgraded to AOL 6.0, and it quotes
other emails by indenting and putting a long blue line beside the quotes
text.  I have no idea what my quoted text looks like to people who have
normal email systems...

In a message dated 11/5/00 6:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes:


>> His alignment is Lawful Good. <<

I don't judge what people list their alignment as, I judge their actions
and behavior and see that as determinative of alignment. >>


LOL.  When I first read this, I took you to mean that Stefan Karameikos would
list his alignment as Lawful Good if given the chance.  (And I'm pretty sure
you think he WOULD, and I'm not sure I'd disagree ;).  Canon Mystara sources
have listed him as "Lawful" and "Good" as far as I can remember, so I doubt
they're typos.  Some of his actions might be questionable for a purported
Lawful Do-Gooder, but I'm still convinced that Stefan should be generally
labeled as Good.


Like you yourself, one has to have questions about a man who turns his back
on a
friend in the time of that friend's greatest need, especially when that
friend has been very generous to you, and that generousity has benifited
you greatly (Stefan has Traladara/Karameikos because of that generousity.
Machetos in trade notwithstanding, its clear who got the better part of the
deal, and thus who has benifited from generousity. Stefan pays back his
friend when its crunch time, when the chips are down by. . .to me, behavior
when it matters is what determines alignment).
I agree that Stefan made out on the Traladara-for-Machetos deal, but we're
both looking at it with 20/20 hindsight.  Thincol thought he got the best of
the deal at the time it was made (in fact, I believe canon says both men
thought they got the best of the bargain--I've gotta do this from memory as
much of my gaming stuff is scattered to the four winds but I have no fear
that James will pick up any errors I make ;).  On paper, it certainly looked
that way: he got an established domain in the empire proper while Stefan got
some woodlands filled with werewolves, vampires, and Traladarans (oh my!).  
If Stefan were to one day come out on top in this deal, he'd have to work his
butt off--and he did by building roads, establishing dominions to tame some
of the wilderness, and, later, establishing a fine magic school.

<<Even if he was completely independent, he was Allied to Thyatis by treaty
(see Gaz1, "The Grand Duchy of Karameikos", p.13: "Both rulers signed decrees
of eternal friendship and mutual defense in times of invasion, and the deal
was set." Stefan broke this alliance/treaty.)
>>

Admittedly, I don't know exactly how mutual defense treaties are worded, but
the quote above specifies "invasion."  Alphatia didn't exactly invade
Thyatis; their beef was with Glantri, and Thyatis chose to step in.  Plus,
Thyatis declared war on Alphatia first, not the other way around.  This was a
fight that Thyatis chose; should Karameikos be expected to pay the
consequences?  If Alphatia had launched an assault against Thyatis instead of
Glantri or possibly even if Alphatia had declared war on Thyatis first, I'd
be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

<<Can evil people be kind and generous, especially when it doesn't "cost"
them anything much? But what are their actions when push comes to shove?>>

Apply these words to Thincol when he made the Traladara/Machetos trade.  Was
he taking advantage of his gung-ho, change-the-world "friend?"  I think so,
to an extent (though I also think he was giving Stefan an opportunity).

Did Thincol believe the Traladarans would simply accept this outsider who
rode into Mirror Bay in a fleet of ships to claim rulership over the land?  I
doubt it.  Did he offer to send some Thyatian troops to help quell the native
rebellion?  No.  Even after the locals attempted to assassinate his "dear
friend" Stefan?  No.

Why not, if Stefan was such a dear friend of his?  Simple: because the
Traladaran uprising was Stefan's problem.  It goes with the territory when
you try to carve out your own dominion.  It wasn't Thincol's affair.  And I
agree with that assessment.  I just don't see Stefan's failure to aid Thyatis
as being much different.  If Thincol chose to intervene in the
Glantri/Alphatia conflict and declare war on Alphatia...hey, that's fine.  
His call.  When the empire takes a licking and the Alphatians proceed to push
into Thyatis' back door...well, I think it's a bit of a stretch labelling
that an "invasion."  The war with Alphatia was Thincol's affair...and Stefan
wisely stayed out of it.  

When he decided this war wasn't Karameikos' fight, Stefan had few options
other than to declare himself king.  His domain was still called the "Grand
Duchy" at that point...and it's a good bet the Alphatians wouldn't think his
lands were a vassal-state of Darokin or the Shires....


A few other consideration that Stefan probably had:

1)  Karameikos' military strength was insignificant compared with Alphatia's.
 
2)  Karameikos probably had similar treaties with Darokin and the Shires, its
other neighbors.  And Darokin WAS flat-out invaded by the Master's minions.
3)  Stefan spent 35 years of his life transforming the wilds of Traladara
into the semblance of a true nation.  He also has a wife and 3 children.  
Siding with Thincol meant throwing away everything he had accomplished.  And
it would've been a gesture of friendship, nothing more--their armed forces
would do little for Thyatis.  (I can't quite picture the mighty Karameikan
army yelling, "For Zirchev!" and shooting down Alphatian skyships with bows
and arrows.)

<<Anyone can list themselves as whatever alignment, but if I had a player who
listed himself as Lawful Good, and then behaved as a irresponsible Liege over
his Vassals, letting them get away with whatever, that isn't Lawful behavior.
>>

<<What *does* one think of a Liege who washes his hands of matters regarding
the behavior of his own vassals, leaving the mess (Ludwig) for others (the
Hin) to clean up ("clean up" here means letting them do the fighting and
dying)?>>

On these two examples, I'm willing to concede some points :)
I've already said how stupid and unbelievable canon is to state that Stefan
remains ignorant of the Black Eagle's atrocities.  In a world of clairvoyance
and wizard eyes, this just isn't possible.  Your theory that he knew and used
the Black Eagle's bad reputation to make himself look better by comparison
makes about as much sense as anything, but it doesn't go with his published
alignment.  At the same time, I'm unwilling to embrace the lame-o canon
explanation about "Stefan can't see evil in others."  If you tried to sell
this story to a publisher or movie studio, they'd laugh you out of the
office.  The pieces don't add up.  Unless Stefan's got a split personality,
maybe.

The Shire Solution example's a great one.  Tactically-speaking, having the
Shires sack his cousin is a great move--Stefan doesn't have to use his own
troops and can thus guard against reprisals from a vengeful Thincol.  
Alignment-wise, I'll concede that it's iffy at best.  I chalk it down as
another piece of "That Old Karameikan Magic" luck: Stefan offers the grieved
Shires first crack at their common nemesis and the hin take it.  Again,
Stefan is spared from making a tough decision.

In conclusion, I'll concede that Stefan ain't no saint.  And I'll admit that
his more recent actions aren't 100% in line with his LG alignment.  But I'll
stick to my belief that he's basically a benevolent guy...not some sceming,
power-hungry tyrant.  Ah hell, I'll even concede that his recent "good deeds"
do have the smell of PR stunts to them, but I still think Stefan's mainly an
idealist who's finally beginning to realize what the real world around him is
like.

BTW, I pretty much hate what Karameikos has become.  Their run of good luck
is sickening.  Also, because I prefer low-level games, I depise the influx of
displaced Alphatian super-wizards and, to a lesser degree, the displaced
Alfheim elves.  The setting's not what it used to be, its ruler ain't what he
used to be...but I don't think he's evil.

P.S.  I've just been handed a note reminding me that it was Stefan who sent
bread to the starving Thyatian masses during the dreaded mummy rot plague.  ;)
 --part1_6a.82ab8a4.27377319_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:59:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <6a.82ab8a4.27377319@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:36 11/5/00 EST, Steve Smith wrote: > I upgraded to AOL 6.0, and it quotes >other emails by indenting and putting a long blue line beside the quotes > I have no idea what my quoted text looks like to people who have >normal email systems... Just fine. FWIW, it's apparently Microsoft Outlook, or something similar, under the hood. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 00:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. > > Canon Mystara sources have listed him as "Lawful" and "Good" as far as I can remember, so I doubt they're typos. << So? If his actions don't support that, then it doesn't affect my opinion. >> I'm still convinced that Stefan should be generally labeled as Good. << By what? The fact that he's listed as "Good" and thus we cannot question that? >> I agree that Stefan made out on the Traladara-for-Machetos deal, but we're both looking at it with 20/20 hindsight. Thincol thought he got the best of the deal at the time it was made. << Emphasis on "at the time". By AC 1006, both men have hindsight - Stefan would know he was given a good deal (after all, as you yourself point out, *he* thought he got the best of the deal at the time it was made): >> (in fact, I believe canon says both men thought they got the best of the bargain << Thus he had to know he was paying back the kindness and generousity of a friend with - well, something a good man wouldn't do. >> I have no fear that James will pick up any errors I make ;). << Yes, I typically do know what I'm talking about. Even when I'm wrong. 8-)~ >> Stefan got some woodlands filled with werewolves, vampires, and Traladarans (oh my!). << Well, lets not forget that he crushed the Traladarans right off the bat, and that as far as Thincol or Stefan knew at the time, the Traladarans weren't going to cause any trouble anyhow (after all, they had been quiecent during the previous 70 years of administration, no reason to suspect they would get rebellious. . .unless Stefan provided them with a reason to get into such a mood). >> If Stefan were to one day come out on top in this deal, he'd have to work his butt off--and he did by building roads, establishing dominions to tame some of the wilderness, and, later, establishing a fine magic school. << Stefan went out and built roads? No, he taxed the Traladarans and had them build roads. Stefan established a fine magic school? No, he cut a deal to sell out his friend, in return for which Alphatia gave him a pay off by building a fine magic school for him. Again, if Hosadus had made the same deal. . . Now, Stefan could have encouraged the growth of a fine magical school during the preceeding 35+ years of his rule, putting Teldon in charge and encouraging folks like Claransa the Seer to teach there. But he didn't. The Alphatians built the school for Stefan in exchange for Stefan selling out his allies (breaking a treaty of alliance) and his friend. Payoffs don't make one good. >> Admittedly, I don't know exactly how mutual defense treaties are worded, but the quote above specifies "invasion." Alphatia didn't exactly invade Thyatis; their beef was with Glantri, and Thyatis chose to step in. << Ahh, parsing language in a fine Lawful Evil manner. I suspected that would be the reply, so I was ready for it. That makes Stefan Lawful Evil, or at best Lawful Neutral. Certainly, Alphatian troops entered Thyatian soil (invasion); certainly also, Stefan had a greater obligation to aid Thyatis first over Darokin (actually, in this case Stefan wasn't so much evil as a moral and physical coward - he felt Thyatis would loose, so he chickened out of that fight, and went to fight Hule instead to assuage his cowardice in the face of Alphatia). >> Apply these words to Thincol when he made the Traladara/Machetos trade. Was he taking advantage of his gung-ho, change-the-world "friend?" I think so, to an extent (though I also think he was giving Stefan an opportunity). << That would have been the case if it was Thincol who approached Stefan with the proposed trade and con(vinc)ed him into accepting it, or twisted his arm into taking Traladara; but that isn't the case. Stefan went to Thincol with the proposal. >> Did Thincol believe the Traladarans would simply accept this outsider who rode into Mirror Bay in a fleet of ships to claim rulership over the land? I doubt it. << Why should he have doubted it? Previous Thyatian governors had faced no trouble from the local population. It'd be easy to assume that Stefan would be accepted as well, unless he gave them a reason to revolt. Remember, Stefan was pretending to be just the latest Thyatian satrap (and I doubt he told the local population otherwise, because word would then spread. One can't control the target audience with these things, tell the Traladarans that he's ruling independent without Thyatian strength to back him up, while keeping that information from the rest of the world). >> Did he offer to send some Thyatian troops to help quell the native rebellion? No. << That's not true. Gaz 1 says Stefan used the local Thyatian garisson to help put down the revolt. >> Even after the locals attempted to assassinate his "dear friend" Stefan? No. << No need to, and Stefan didn't even ask (which indicates he didn't feel the need for such aid). >> Why not, if Stefan was such a dear friend of his? Simple: because the Traladaran uprising was Stefan's problem. It goes with the territory when you try to carve out your own dominion. It wasn't Thincol's affair. And I agree with that assessment. I just don't see Stefan's failure to aid Thyatis a as being much different. << Except that when you sign a treaty of alliance, you should keep it. When Stefan signed that treaty of alliance in case of attack, I'm sure he thought that it would benifit only him. When it turned out that he'd actually be expected to *send* rather than just recieve help, well then we know what he did: Sold out his longtime allies. You point to what TSR printed with respect to alignment - I say actions differ from that. We can look at what TSR said with respect to his actions - "betrayal of his homeland", "sell out his longtime allies" When? "Stefan has chosen this moment to declare his independence, when Thincol can hardly spare the men to re-take Karameikos" - I.E. not at a moment when a smooth, amicable transition could be arranged in accordance with his earlier deal with Thincol, with Stefan acending to Kingship with his friend smiling on, but at a time when it's advantageous to him to "sell out his longtime allies", recieve the benifit and avoid the cost. Not the admirable behavior of a near-Paladin. >> 2) Karameikos probably had similar treaties with Darokin and the Shires, its other neighbors. << Nope, not until the formation of the WDL *after* the WotI war. If you can find *any* proof of a treaty of alliance with Darokin or the Shires before that, I'll personally appologize. There isn't, though. That's just wrong. Speculation in Stefan's favor in an attempt to exculpate his actions is what the "Karameikos Propaganda Machine" is all about, though. 8-) Seeing whatever action he takes in the best of all possible lights, rationalizing away his behavior in order to produce a mask of virtue. But that mask doesn't mean real virtue is behind it. >> Siding with Thincol meant throwing away everything he had accomplished. << Nope; siding with Thincol meant keeping his trust of friendship and keeping his word, and cleaving to his honor. Ignoring honor for materiel advantage is the very stuff of evil. >> The Shire Solution example's a great one. Tactically-speaking, having the Shires sack his cousin is a great move--Stefan doesn't have to use his own troops and can thus guard against reprisals from a vengeful Thincol. << >> Alignment-wise, I'll concede that it's iffy at best. << Right; having others do your dirty work while you stand asside and just reap the benifit is dubious behavior. >> I chalk it down as another piece of "That Old Karameikan Magic" luck: << Which is, in the end, my real point: Stefan has not been a good ruler, he's been a lucky one. Stefan has benifited from a string of lucky breaks. One can stack up his intentional policies and compare the actual good he's done with the harm, and it's largely a wash (on the one hand, he has roads built and appoints dominion rulers. On the other hand, he needlessly crushes the indiginous Traladaran leaders rather than forming a modus vivendi with them, as the previous Thyatian administration did, and appoints - exclusively - Thyatians to rule those dominions he creates early on, with results that are mixed at best; one of those appointments goes on a rampage, sewing discord throughout the land for fourty years, with Stefan ineffective at stopping it - this undos much of the intentional good Stefan does, but Karameikos prospers due to the string of lucky breaks; He puts poor elven refugees directly in harm's way, a neutral act that doesn't do them any favors, so its hard to see hi! ! m getting much credit for that, though the surepititious arrival of the elven refugees, again by fortune (or misfortune) rather than by any act of Stefan's, benifits Karameikos. Similar with the arrival of the Alphatian refugees that build up that school of magic you mentioned - I doubt someone of Tylion IV/"Terari's" caliber would have come if it wasn't for unforseen and unforseeable misfortunes in Alphatia leading to bounty for Karameikos). >> In conclusion, I'll concede that Stefan ain't no saint. And I'll admit that his more recent actions aren't 100% in line with his LG alignment. << See, actions are what I count. And it's not just his recent actions, but his early actions at the very foundation of Karameikos that aren't 100% LG (I mean, lets face it - rather haphazard apointments of vassals, and without proper supervision, isn't that Lawful and it isn't that Good, to set asside the whole "problem of the local Traladaran families" thing - why they were *all* effectively excluded from power by Stefan, when the Thyatians hadn't done that during their rather light rule over the region; a point being things weren't so bad under the Thyatian protectorate - nothing that precipitated a revolt or led to a thirty year reign of terror in Halag, at least. So the Thyatians can't be all bad and Karameikos all good, but that's another topic). >> But I'll stick to my belief that he's basically a benevolent guy...not some sceming, power-hungry tyrant. << Well, he's very ambitious, that's canon. He wants to mold a nation in his own image, that's canon. And he has the hubris/arrogance to rename the place after himself. That's sort of - I donno, he might not be evil, but it's pretty power hungry (It's kind of "Max the First"ish, actually, IMO). Being ambitious isn't evil, wanting to mold a nation by one's own hands is kind of - well, one has to have a manipulative streak to have that be one's ambition. All manipulation isn't bad (as the Hivers - a Traveller race - or the Puppeteers - a Ringworld race - would say), but it isn't nessisarily the attitude you want to start off with, and Stefan did. Renaming the country after yourself is egocentrism and narcissism - Chaotic rather than Lawful (Stefan comes first, society second.) And that was just the first couple years of his rule. I conceed that when things are going his way and when trouble doesn't trouble him, Stefan lets himself be the benign, kindly guy. But it's when push comes to shove that matters. When push comes to shove, Stefan choses the easy road rather than the Good road. Taking responsibility for Ludwig - that would take effort on his part. Keeping the faith with his friends? Not if it's costly, the string of good luck might run out. Working out an accomidation with the local Traladarans? Take too much thought and negotiation. Just have the garisson crush them and replace them in the governing of Traladara (now Karameikos) with cronies from Thyatis. Vet the cronies from Thyatis to make sure they'll be responsible appointments? Why bother, the Immortals will sort it out in the end. But the easy way out isn't the Good way. Being a Good ruler takes more than positive intentions and luck; it means knowing the good and cleaving to it, and discerning the good in making apointments. Olivia gets a bad rap as the "ice queen bitch", but in Karameikos *SHES* the good ruler: she's the one, or so it seems, who vets all the apointments to the Ministries and makes sure they aren't bastards (Stefan wouldn't be able to tell, or can't be bothered to) - since she arrived, no more Ludwig types seem to have been apointed. Olivia, not Stefan, knows the value of information to a ruler, and makes sure to have all the information on hand so that matters can be decided properly and with due reflection rather than on some whim or spur-of-the-moment/seat-of-the-pants (Chaotic) decision based on gut instinct (again, a Chaotic-type decision-making process). >> P.S. I've just been handed a note reminding me that it was Stefan who sent bread to the starving Thyatian masses during the dreaded mummy rot plague. << Propaganda and concience-soothing measure, all part of his Cult of Personality, really. Again, doesn't really cost him anything significant to do that, and the payoff might be big. Just Stefan playing Machievellian Prince, IMO: being seen as being good. When the chips were down, though, Stefan was nowhere to be found. P.S. it was Olivia who "suggested" that Stefan proclam that each town must sponser a school to spread learning. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:24:29 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c3.abb1932.2737a89d_boundary" --part1_c3.abb1932.2737a89d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting read here. He sounds like he has more of a LN alignment then a LG anignment if what your talking about is true. Note: I havent read any novels about Mystara, all i have are 2 alaminacs and the K:KoA box set. --part1_c3.abb1932.2737a89d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting read here. He sounds like he has more of a LN alignment then a LG
anignment if what your talking about is true. Note: I havent read any novels
about Mystara, all i have are 2 alaminacs and the K:KoA box set. --part1_c3.abb1932.2737a89d_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:27:08 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: AOL v6.0 (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 21:36 11/5/00 EST, Steve Smith wrote: > > I upgraded to AOL 6.0, and it quotes > >other emails by indenting and putting a long blue line beside the quotes > > I have no idea what my quoted text looks like to people who have > >normal email systems... As somebody who upgraded to AOL v6.0 and then quickly repented and reverted to v5.0, I can tell you that v6.0 is the essence of true evil, even worse than King Stefan. In regard to how it deals with mailing lists, v6.0 creates many new problems but does not fix any problems from v5.0. If it is at all possible for you to revert to v5.0, I highly recommend that you do so before it is too late -- and I also hope that AOL realizes how badly they botched this latest upgrade and fixes it before they alienate too many of their more savvy customers. In short, I am rather appalled that they did not pick up the basic problems with v6.0 in their rather short beta testing period. If v7.0 does not really shape things up, I will finally give AOL the heave-ho and move on to any other ISP. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:27:06 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 1:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > We can look at what TSR said with respect to his actions - "betrayal of his > homeland", "sell out his longtime allies" When? "Stefan has chosen this > moment to declare his independence, when Thincol can hardly spare the men to > re-take Karameikos" - I.E. not at a moment when a smooth, amicable transition > could be arranged in accordance with his earlier deal with Thincol, with > Stefan acending to Kingship with his friend smiling on, but at a time when it' > s advantageous to him to "sell out his longtime allies", recieve the benifit > and avoid the cost. Not the admirable behavior of a near-Paladin. To clarify matters a bit: Thincol clearly cared more about what Stefan actually did rather than what he claimed to be able to do. When the Alphatians were attacking, how do you think he would have reacted to each of the following scenarios: 1) He receives a message announcing "King Stefan of Karameikos is on his way to aid you." or 2) He receives a message that basically says, "Up yours! Grand Duke Stefan of Karameikos." My guess is that Thincol could not care less whether Stefan claimed to be Grand Duke or full King of Karameikos -- the real question of concern was whether he would come to the aid of Thyatis in a real crisis. At this point I would put Stefan on an exact moral equivalence with the current POTUS -- both seem to have done whatever was best for their own interests and to hell with any larger concerns. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:43:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: AOL v6.0 (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_80.2755cac.2737ad27_boundary" --part1_80.2755cac.2737ad27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please explane. I havent had any problems with 6.0 --part1_80.2755cac.2737ad27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please explane. I havent had any problems with 6.0 --part1_80.2755cac.2737ad27_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:46:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. Mystara wrote: >> Interesting read here. He sounds like he has more of a LN alignment then a LG anignment if what your talking about is true. << LN sounds about right to me, also, actually. >> Note: I havent read any novels about Mystara, all i have are 2 alaminacs and the K:KoA box set. << Well, I'm not sure I'd recomend the novels, general consensus about the novels for Mystara is that most aren't that good (which ones to people think are good?) I read the Penhalgion Novel - the first one at least, I can't recall if I read the next or not anymore, my mind is bleery. Stefan didn't really figure in the one(s?) I read, but I wasn't impressed by it as a book. The things I'd recomend is if you can get your hands on the Gazzeteers, which I know is getting hard. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:19:25 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Female Tyranny Idea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Given the way I had Empress Eriadna oppressing the PCs in my campaign about ten years ago, I would not be at all surprised if (had that campaign continued into the PWA era) they concluded that Dolores and Eriadna were one and the same individual. Notice that once again we have two individuals who are never seen together. ;) Another creepy idea -- at the time that campaign ended, Ericall was the only Alphatian who had shown himself to be anything other than a throughly creepy villain. Thus, for my PCs -- "The only good Alphatian is a dumb Alphatian"? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:19:26 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 5:10:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > Can one ligitimize one's claims by conquering a place? Perhaps, depending on > one's point of view. But, remember, accepting that means accepting Hule's > control of Sind as equally ligitimate (and at least Hule controls all of the > Sind that they claim to, so they've managed to impose their ligitimacy by > force in a way that Ericall & Alphatia - or, earlier, Thyatis with Oceansend - > never managed). I think the key point is if and when the natives accept the conquest as a fait accompli and are assimilated into the conquering regime. In the case of Traladara/Karemeikos, the willingness of Thincol to give away that region to the independent rule of Stefan is proof that the Traladarans had not been accepted as Thyatian citizens as of 970 AC, when Stefan became the Grand Duke of Karameikos. On that basis, Stefan is and will remain a tyrant/usurper until the Traladaran people as a whole provide evidence that they accept him and/or his successors as the legitimate ruler(s) of Karameikos/Traladara. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:29:06 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ba.d26e1da.2737b7c2_boundary" --part1_ba.d26e1da.2737b7c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a friend that had the first 3 but im not sure on who to talk to about geting them around where i live at. Im in the USA but in a some what small town (actuly a retirement community). Thares not much around here. hehe... --part1_ba.d26e1da.2737b7c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a friend that had the first 3 but im not sure on who to talk to about
geting them around where i live at. Im in the USA but in a some what small
town (actuly a retirement community). Thares not much around here. hehe... --part1_ba.d26e1da.2737b7c2_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:49:38 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 2:29:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > >A) "Sells out his longtime allies" - not my words, TSR's words. > >B) "betrays his homeland" - not my words, TSR's words. > > Um, OK. I don't know why you're so pissed about this. Did he beat > you up in the process or anything? Most of us could not care less. On the other hand, Thincol and Eusebius would be quite agitated about these matters. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:49:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: The "Cute Villian" Factor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-05 2:40:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: > How did Bargle get away with so much then? The silly name? > I'm actually planning on using him as a major NPC in my campaign, > although > the players haven't gotten that far yet. Anyone with advice on how to run > him? There is a 2E article in Dragon magazine that depicts Bargle as the salesman of some actually useful magical devices in Draokin. Presumably a good reputation in that area could go a long way towards dispelling the nasty rumor spread by Five Shires Halflings and Black Barony Humans. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:49:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: AOL v6.0 (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 2:05:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Boondale@AOL.COM writes: > please explane. I havent had any problems with 6.0 The first problems I noticed were in regard to Automatic AOL sessions -- in short, they do not work well at all with version 6.0. Later problems will be mentioned to you by other subscribers to this and other mailing lists -- since most lists prefer straight ASCII e-mail but AOL v6.0 has lost the ability to send e-mail without HTML, I anticipate major crises in this regard on a large number of mailing lists. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:53:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4a.d17afaf.2737bd8f_boundary" --part1_4a.d17afaf.2737bd8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you takeing into acount of the new generation of Karameikos? They are the ones that will solidfy the Kingdom. --part1_4a.d17afaf.2737bd8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you takeing into acount of the new generation of Karameikos? They are the
ones that will solidfy the Kingdom. --part1_4a.d17afaf.2737bd8f_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:13:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: AOL v6.0 (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b2.cb40db6.2737c244_boundary" --part1_b2.cb40db6.2737c244_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, that is a problem. --part1_b2.cb40db6.2737c244_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, that is a problem. --part1_b2.cb40db6.2737c244_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:11:55 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <50.ce3b8b6.27373a97@aol.com>; from Demmero@AOL.COM on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 05:35:03PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 05:35:03PM -0500, Steve Smith wrote: > > His alignment is Lawful Good. He's done all sorts of noble things for his > subjects--Traladaran and Thyatian alike--and tried to be fair to both > ethnicities. He IS benevolent. He's SUPPOSED TO be a "Good Guy." He's also supposed to be rather useless. Lets face it, if he was a good ruler who was able to handle everything evil in his realm, well there would be nothing for the PC's to do! Also the PC's wouldn't want to work for a nasty ruler, hence we have 'nice but dim' in charge in Karameikos and Norwold... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:36:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> Thyatis is not a foreign power when Stefan becomes Archduke, since > Traladara was already a duchy/province/colony of the Empire. So, Stefan is no more of a Tyrant than his successor as Duke of Machetos. << > > I'm not sure that the locals looked at it that way when Stefan anounced his rulership over them and his plans to disposess them. Thus the revolt (which the previous Thyatian administration hadn't precipitated, but which Stefan's announcement of "rule" and of his regime did). That's is the fault of his personal style of rule (despotism), and also of his weakness (compared with the Empire's), which let the Traladarans think they could get away with their revolt. > >> Not really, Stefan's step is quite short (from independent Archduke to King), while Agathocles' makes the jump from private citizen (he was an officer, IIRC) to monarch. Essentially, Stefan change is more "cosmetic" than real. << > > Is it, though? Titles were taken very seriously - very very seriously - in the societies that used them. Stefan's crowning of himself as King is thus somewhat akin to Napoleon crowning himself Emperor - which was very shockingly irregular at the time (he even had the traditional religious authorities at hand to perform the coronation and thus ligitimize it, but he snatched the crown and performed a self-coronation, which was shocking and disturbing). While I don't know whether Stefan did this kind of self-coronation or was himself crowned by the religious authorities, I still think that it was a symbolic act, a sort of message to the enemies of the Empire stating that Karameikos was on his own. As the Gaz says, Stefan had always used the title of Grand Duke as a way of saying "hey, don't attack me, because I am part of the Thyatian Empire" (which wasn't true), and when being part of the Empire started having more drawbacks than usefulness, he made clear that he was on his own in the loudest possible way. > Self-elevation is a typical act of the Tyrant, though. True, but Stefan did not make the jump from private citizen/consul/whatever to King, but from Grand Duke, that is he already was the "rightful" dynastic ruler of Karameikos. BTW, self elevation isn't that rare in Mystara (Zendrolion in a notable past case, the Duke of Cimarron a modern one). And while Zendrolion strikes me as a good Napoleon equivalent, Stefan does not. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:45:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Can one ligitimize one's claims by conquering a place? Perhaps, depending on one's point of view. But, remember, accepting that means accepting Hule's control of Sind as equally ligitimate (and at least Hule controls all of the Sind that they claim to, so they've managed to impose their ligitimacy by force in a way that Ericall & Alphatia - or, earlier, Thyatis with Oceansend - never managed). Sure, though there is still difference between a native puppet ruler and a foreign conqueror. > Is a "Sword-won Kingdom" a tyranny? I don't think so. > Is it a Despotism? It depends on the ruler, but the answer is most often yes. > Again, just because Sparta (a "foreign power") sponsored Tyrannts as such in various cities and made them theirby dependencies of Sparta while the Tyrannts reigned did not make the sponsored Tyrannts into non-Tyrrants. I acknowledge a difference between those tyrants and, say, the conquest of Messenia or the foundation of some colonies (where the locals where essentially reduced to the rank of slaves and replaced by Spartans). In this case, the government wasn't different than the original one in Sparta, therefore it could not be a tyranny (though the natives suffered a worse fate). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:47:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Also the PC's wouldn't want to work for a > nasty ruler, hence we have 'nice but dim' in charge in Karameikos and > Norwold... I'd like to know how would Glantrian campaigns work, if this was true :P -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:37:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <3A048990.C78A3536@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > What's the use of an invisible moon? The moon is Myoshima (I just noticed there is a planet called Moshima in Space Usagi..). It is inhabited by Rakasta and Parchydermions and goblins, the two latter from non-canon additions. We might consider making the moon visible at one point or another... H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:44:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos In-Reply-To: ; from agathokles@LIBERO.IT on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 11:47:41AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 11:47:41AM +0100, Agathokles wrote: > > Also the PC's wouldn't want to work for a > > nasty ruler, hence we have 'nice but dim' in charge in Karameikos and > > Norwold... > > I'd like to know how would Glantrian campaigns work, if this was true :P Ah Glantri, now *that's* a place to play :) Essentially, all the PC's in my campaigns ended up fiercly nationalistic, hating clerics and all. When they worked for nobles, well, there are so many different ones to work for, and not *all* of them are bad. Although their 'sponsers' have been Haaskinz (now a lich), Morphail, Etienne, Malachie - not all of them really nasty, not one of them really nice. But it works, and we have so much fun... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:43:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, SteelAngel wrote: > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Eric Anondson wrote: > > > Mystara'a solar system. Especially since just found that the nation of > > The Alphatian homeworld is not in the prime plane - Old Alphatia is > actually an outer plane connected to the basic home-plane of energy > Immortals. Only according to WotI. Originally, Alphatia was in a distant part of Mystaraspace. Personally, im wondering why it was moved since having Alphatia in Mystaraspace makes Mystaraspace much more interesting. > Other than [The Gold Box], there is no "canon" reference to > "Mystaraspace", since > that term is up to interpretation anyway. Many purists discount phlogiston > travel in Mystara's prime plane, prefering voidships. You may be right about the term Mystaraspace, but the space beyond Mystara has been mentioned in several articles of VotPA, other Dragon magazine articles, CoM, the PWAs and several modules aswell. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:50:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marizhavashti Kali Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit H�vard wrote: > > We might consider making the moon visible at one point or > another... I'm not really opposed or bothered by it, but my first reaction was "What does *that* do?" :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:17:16 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c7.2c84a2b.2737fb4c_boundary" --part1_c7.2c84a2b.2737fb4c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/6/00 1:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > >> Apply these words to Thincol when he made the Traladara/Machetos trade.= =20 > Was he taking advantage of his gung-ho, change-the-world "friend?" I thin= k=20 > so, to an extent (though I also think he was giving Stefan an opportunity)= .=20 > << >=20 > That would have been the case if it was Thincol who approached Stefan with= =20 > the proposed trade and con(vinc)ed him into accepting it, or twisted his=20 > arm into taking Traladara; but that isn't the case. Stefan went to Thincol= =20 > with the proposal. >=20 >=20 So what you're saying is that it's OK for Thincol to try to take advantage o= f=20 his "friend" Stefan because Stefan's the one who proposed the deal? Thus if= =20 Stefan offered Thincol several thousand gp for what he thought was a fine=20 horse and was closer to a nag, Thincol should take the cash, friend or no? =20= I=20 don't buy it; friendship works both ways. <<>> 2)=A0 Karameikos probably had similar treaties with Darokin and the=20 Shires, its=A0 other neighbors. << Nope, not until the formation of the WDL *after* the WotI war. If you can find *any* proof of a treaty of alliance with Darokin or the=20 Shires before that, I'll personally appologize. There isn't, though. That's just wrong. Speculation in Stefan's favor in an attempt to exculpate his actions is what= =20 the "Karameikos Propaganda Machine" is all about, though. 8-)>> Canon-wise, you're probably right. I just don't believe this is a wild=20 assumption to make. =20 <> This I don't buy for a minute. Thyatis declared war on Alphatia--it was=20 Thincol's crusade of glory, not Stefan's. Your definition of "invasion"=20 means that if Thyatis were to declare war on all of Mystara and all of=20 Mystara's armies came knocking on Thincol's doorstep, Stefan should leap to=20 Thincol's aid--friendship should be stronger than sanity. Stefan ain't the=20 brightest candle in the chandelier, but he ain't that dumb. <<(actually, in this case Stefan wasn't so much evil as a moral and physical= =20 coward - he felt Thyatis would loose, so he chickened out of that fight, and= =20 went to fight Hule instead to assuage his cowardice in the face of Alphatia)= .> > Strangely enough, part of me agrees with you here. I can see Stefan's point= =20 though; he didn't go out of his way to pick a fight with Alphatia, while=20 Darokin was invaded without great cause. Stefan chose fighting the Master a= s=20 the higher moral cause. Stefan also opted to send his troops where they might actually be effective.= =20 Karameikos' military was not in the same league as Alphatia's, Thyatis', or=20 even Glantri's. It would've been suicide to enter the fray. Lemme use an example: I see Glantri and Alphatia as a pair of beholders, and= =20 Thyatis as a high-level fighter. Stefan sees the two beholders getting read= y=20 to blast each other, then Thincol says, "Hey! I hate that beholder with the= =20 "A" tattoo--I'm gonna help the other beholder whoop its butt!" Then when he= =20 takes a licking from the beholder, he turns to his pal Stefan (a 3rd-level=20 fighter, maybe) and says, "Come on, pal! I need your help to defeat this=20 thing!" If Stefan steps into that fray, he's dead. =20 And you know what? THINCOL KNOWS THIS TOO! Fine friend indeed, sacrificing= =20 a friend and his nation in a fight that he (Thincol) started. So ultimately= ,=20 you could say that Thincol was merely using Stefan; he wasn't his friend. =20 And Stefan may have finally awakened to that. And to reiterate another point I made earlier, blood is thicker than water.=20= =20 Stefan had a family he'd almost certainly lose by going to his "friend's"=20 side in the war. Not an evil choice in my book. Another point: If Thincol felt that Stefan's actions during the war were=20 inexcusable, why didn't he have his troops level the place after the war=20 ended? Possibly because then he'd be levelling his troops thin. Why did=20 Stefan send help to Thyatis during the mummy rot plague if he'd really turne= d=20 on his old friend? PR stunt, James will probably say, and I'll agree that=20 was part of it. I also think that maybe both Thincol and Stefan may have=20 come to accept that each had done what he had to do for his nation during th= e=20 war...that friendship and state must sometimes be mutually excusive. --part1_c7.2c84a2b.2737fb4c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a=20= message dated 11/6/00 1:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jruhlconob@SPRYN= ET.COM writes:


>> Apply these words=20= to Thincol when he made the Traladara/Machetos trade.  
Was he takin= g advantage of his gung-ho, change-the-world "friend?"  I think
so,= to an extent (though I also think he was giving Stefan an opportunity). <<

That would have been the case if it was Thincol who approached Stefan wi= th
the proposed trade and con(vinc)ed him into accepting it, or twisted=20= his
arm into taking Traladara; but that isn't the case. Stefan went to T= hincol
with the proposal.



So what you're saying is that it's OK for Thincol to try to take advanta= ge of
his "friend" Stefan because Stefan's the one who proposed the deal= ?  Thus if
Stefan offered Thincol several thousand gp for what he t= hought was a fine
horse and was closer to a nag, Thincol should take the= cash, friend or no?  I
don't buy it; friendship works both ways.

<<>> 2)=A0 Karameikos probably had similar treaties with Dar= okin and the
Shires, its=A0 other neighbors. <<

Nope, not until the formation of the WDL *after* the WotI war.
If you can find *any* proof of a treaty of alliance with Darokin or the=20=
Shires before that, I'll personally appologize.

There isn't, though. That's just wrong.
Speculation in Stefan's favor in an attempt to exculpate his actions is=20= what
the "Karameikos Propaganda Machine" is all about, though. 8-)>&g= t;

Canon-wise, you're probably right.  I just don't believe this is a=20= wild
assumption to make.  

<<Ahh, parsing language in a fine Lawful Evil manner. I suspected=20= that would
be the reply, so I was ready for it.
That makes Stefan Lawful Evil, or at best Lawful Neutral. Certainly, Alphatian troops entered Thyatian soil (invasion); >>

This I don't buy for a minute.  Thyatis declared war on Alphatia--i= t was
Thincol's crusade of glory, not Stefan's.  Your definition of= "invasion"
means that if Thyatis were to declare war on all of Mystara=20= and all of
Mystara's armies came knocking on Thincol's doorstep, Stefan=20= should leap to
Thincol's aid--friendship should be stronger than sanity.=  Stefan ain't the
brightest candle in the chandelier, but he ain't= that dumb.

<<(actually, in this case Stefan wasn't so much evil as a moral an= d physical
coward - he felt Thyatis would loose, so he chickened out of=20= that fight, and
went to fight Hule instead to assuage his cowardice in t= he face of Alphatia).>
>

Strangely enough, part of me agrees with you here.  I can see Stefa= n's point
though; he didn't go out of his way to pick a fight with Alpha= tia, while
Darokin was invaded without great cause.  Stefan chose f= ighting the Master as
the higher moral cause.

Stefan also opted to send his troops where they might actually be effect= ive.  
Karameikos' military was not in the same league as Alphatia's= , Thyatis', or
even Glantri's.  It would've been suicide to enter t= he fray.

Lemme use an example: I see Glantri and Alphatia as a pair of beholders,= and
Thyatis as a high-level fighter.  Stefan sees the two beholder= s getting ready
to blast each other, then Thincol says, "Hey!  I ha= te that beholder with the
"A" tattoo--I'm gonna help the other beholder=20= whoop its butt!"  Then when he
takes a licking from the beholder, h= e turns to his pal Stefan (a 3rd-level
fighter, maybe) and says, "Come o= n, pal!  I need your help to defeat this
thing!"  If Stefan st= eps into that fray, he's dead.  

And you know what?  THINCOL KNOWS THIS TOO!  Fine friend indee= d, sacrificing
a friend and his nation in a fight that he (Thincol) star= ted.  So ultimately,
you could say that Thincol was merely using St= efan; he wasn't his friend.  
And Stefan may have finally awakened t= o that.

And to reiterate another point I made earlier, blood is thicker than wat= er.  
Stefan had a family he'd almost certainly lose by going to his= "friend's"
side in the war.  Not an evil choice in my book.

Another point: If Thincol felt that Stefan's actions during the war were=
inexcusable, why didn't he have his troops level the place after the wa= r
ended?  Possibly because then he'd be levelling his troops thin.=20=  Why did
Stefan send help to Thyatis during the mummy rot plague if= he'd really turned
on his old friend?  PR stunt, James will probab= ly say, and I'll agree that
was part of it.  I also think that mayb= e both Thincol and Stefan may have
come to accept that each had done wha= t he had to do for his nation during the
war...that friendship and state= must sometimes be mutually excusive. --part1_c7.2c84a2b.2737fb4c_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:22:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: AOL v6.0 (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_af.2c6daab.2737fc86_boundary" --part1_af.2c6daab.2737fc86_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/00 1:33:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kaviyd@AOL.COM writes: > I can tell you that v6.0 is the essence of true evil, even > Geez David....haven't you read my posts??!! Stefan's a Good Guy, I tell ya, nothing at all like that evil, depraved AOL 6.0! ;) And BTW, I'm trapped with it. I "Moved" all my old AOL data over, instead of "Copying" it. (I had one of those moments where your brain is screaming "NOOO!" even as your mouse-finger is clicking "Yes.") --part1_af.2c6daab.2737fc86_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/00 1:33:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kaviyd@AOL.COM
writes:


I can tell you that v6.0 is the essence of true evil, even
worse than King Stefan
Geez David....haven't you read my posts??!!  Stefan's a Good Guy, I tell ya,
nothing at all like that evil, depraved AOL 6.0!  ;)

And BTW, I'm trapped with it.  I "Moved" all my old AOL data over, instead of
"Copying" it.  (I had one of those moments where your brain is screaming
"NOOO!" even as your mouse-finger is clicking "Yes.") --part1_af.2c6daab.2737fc86_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:38:56 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: ; from hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:37:06PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:37:06PM +0100, H�vard wrote: > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Marizhavashti Kali wrote: > > > What's the use of an invisible moon? > > The moon is Myoshima (I just noticed there is a planet called Moshima in > Space Usagi..). It is inhabited by Rakasta and Parchydermions and goblins, > the two latter from non-canon additions. Must buy more Usagi...Hmm, better go read those bunny posts from a while back, now that I am more edumacated in the ways of Space Usagi :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:45:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Actually, rulers put in power by outside powers were, in the classical (Greek) definition of the term, Tyrannts. Similarly, Stefan elivating himself as King is a classical act of a Tyrant (such as the real Agathocles, "Real" Agathokles? You mean the "other". > Tyrannt of Syracuse). > Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeff Daly Subject: Weil, Patron of Apathy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C047C7.DB94CD00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C047C7.DB94CD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With this new Immortal, I'm starting to imagine a "Street of Second Rate = Divinities" in Thyatis or Darokin City (Or some other large city). = Consider his temple to be right next to Zyxl's, Patron of Adventurer's = Down on their Luck. The following is a typical prayer to Weil, Patron of Apathetic Causes. Oh Weil, we steadfastly refuse to ponder thy ways, which are a mystery = to us. But if it should be thy inclination, consider our requests, made = in the most casual of spirits. We do not seek to do harm, and neither = do we seek to do good; we only seek to be nice. Only the most = devastating of acts will move us, only the most miraculous of events = will stir us. Weil, we shall continue to endeavor to inaction, if not = inattention. In your name we pray, if you like, amen. ---------- JDALY Michigan Teamsters Local 337 President Larry Brennan endorsed Texas = Governor George W. Bush at a weekend rally in Dearborn. Brennan said in = his endorsement statement, "As a Michigan Teamster, I believe this is = the most important election in generations. For the last eight = years...the Clinton-Gore administration has taken us for granted. And in = return, we've just been taken. We've been taken by an administration = that says Washington knows best. We need a President who we can trust. = And we need a President who trusts us. We need a President who will work = with us. This is what Michigan workers want. (We need) a principled = leader, a fair-minded president, (and) a man labor can work with. That = man is the Governor of Texas." ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C047C7.DB94CD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With this new Immortal, I'm starting to = imagine a "Street of Second Rate Divinities" in Thyatis or Darokin = City (Or=20 some other large city).  Consider his temple to be right next to = Zyxl's,=20 Patron of Adventurer's Down on their Luck.
 
The following is a typical prayer to = Weil, Patron=20 of Apathetic Causes.
 
Oh Weil, we steadfastly refuse to = ponder thy ways,=20 which are a mystery to us.  But if it should be thy inclination, = consider=20 our requests, made in the most casual of spirits.  We do not seek = to do=20 harm, and neither do we seek to do good; we only seek to be nice.  = Only the=20 most devastating of acts will move us, only the most miraculous of = events will=20 stir us.  Weil, we shall continue to endeavor to inaction, if not=20 inattention.  In your name we pray, if you like, amen.
----------
JDALY
 
Michigan Teamsters Local 337 President = Larry=20 Brennan endorsed Texas Governor George W. Bush at a weekend rally in = Dearborn.=20 Brennan said in his endorsement statement, "As a Michigan Teamster, I = believe=20 this is the most important election in generations. For the last eight=20 years...the Clinton-Gore administration has taken us for granted. And in = return,=20 we've just been taken. We've been taken by an administration that says=20 Washington knows best. We need a President who we can trust. And we need = a=20 President who trusts us. We need a President who will work with us. This = is what=20 Michigan workers want. (We need) a principled leader, a fair-minded = president,=20 (and) a man labor can work with. That man is the Governor of=20 Texas."
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C047C7.DB94CD00-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:14:13 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brant Casavant Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/00 9:56:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Demmero@AOL.COM writes: << The Shire Solution example's a great one. Tactically-speaking, having the Shires sack his cousin is a great move--Stefan doesn't have to use his own troops and can thus guard against reprisals from a vengeful Thincol. Alignment-wise, I'll concede that it's iffy at best. I chalk it down as another piece of "That Old Karameikan Magic" luck: Stefan offers the grieved Shires first crack at their common nemesis and the hin take it. Again, Stefan is spared from making a tough decision. >> Just to play devil's advocate. Did not the Shires *request* permission to sack the Black Eagle Barony? I may be mistaken, but I thought that was the case. What's more, I think that the whole Shire-Barony situation *could* be preceived as Lawful Good--I mean, if the Hin were the ones who were wronged in the first place, are they the ones entitled to their vengeance. Besides, when the Hin were dealing with Stefan, I'm sure they were thinking "How can we trust this human to fix this problem when he just spent the past few years ignoring it?" Maybe they didn't trust Stefan with the responsibility of arresting his own cousin. Conflict of interests and all that. - Brant ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:53:43 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Tzimisce Subject: Elves of the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I�m an old AD&D player and only this year I begin to play OD&D so I�m having some problems, specialy with elves. Are there half-elves in Mystara? How they are used in game? Like an elf-class or like a human-class(Fighter, Thief, Mage...)? How is elven afterlife? They are immortal like in AD&D? Thanks in advance, - Tzimisce "What we do in life, echoes to eternity." - Gladiator ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:05:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Elves of the Known World In-Reply-To: <000001c047fb$cba49c20$8116f2c8@catabroc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tzimisce wrote: > I�m an old AD&D player and only this year I begin to play OD&D so I�m having > some problems, specialy with elves. > Are there half-elves in Mystara? How they are used in game? Like an > elf-class or like a human-class(Fighter, Thief, Mage...)? > How is elven afterlife? They are immortal like in AD&D? The half-elf issue is one of debate. According to "the Elves of Alfheim" the true half-elf is a creature of legend. Most offspring of elf-human relatonships are either human or elf. Girls become the same race as ther mother and boys are of the same race as ther father. The Voyage of the Princess Ark series introduced a new half-elf class, which basically was like humans (able to chose other classes), but with infravision, extended lifespan and an xp-penalty. VotPA also introduced the Half-elf as a relatively common race on the Savage Coast. I believe that Mystaran elves are not immortal, but die around the age of 800. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:05:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: III Subject: Karameikosian Dominions and the Dark Knight of K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inspired by recent discussion on the list I have been trying to list all of the dominion changes in Karamiekos after 1000 AC (which lords became barons and such). I read Dark Knight of Karameikos some time ago, and I can=92t s= eem to remember- was the location of Baron Yuschiev's lands ever mentioned? He had relations with Traladaran communities in the Rugalov River valley, but his own lands weren=92t near there. Since his estate was in Mirros it seem= s possible that he became baron of Marilenev after the death of Lady Magda Marilenev (sometime after 1010 AC). Or perhaps he was granted a new dominion somewhere north of Mirros, west of the Duke=92s (er, King=92s) Roa= d.=20 Does anyone have any ideas? While I=92m thinking of it, has anyone worked up stats for Sir Grygory, or worked out a chronology as to when the major events in the novel took place= ? I seem to remember some mention of Yuschiev in one of the net almanacs, but now I can't find it. I didn=92t really care for Dark Knight of Karameikos, I thought it was pret= ty mediocre even for a game related novel. However, some of the characters would fit nicely into a Karameikos campaign, and another Traladaran noble can only be a good thing for Karameikos in the long run. -Andy Morrow _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:17:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Karameikosian Dominions and the Dark Knight of K In-Reply-To: <15541059.973523156647.JavaMail.imail@prickles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, III wrote: > Inspired by recent discussion on the list I have been trying to list all of > the dominion changes in Karamiekos after 1000 AC (which lords became barons > and such). I read Dark Knight of Karameikos some time ago, and I can�t seem > to remember- was the location of Baron Yuschiev's lands ever mentioned? He > had relations with Traladaran communities in the Rugalov River valley, but > his own lands weren�t near there. Since his estate was in Mirros it seems > possible that he became baron of Marilenev after the death of Lady Magda > Marilenev (sometime after 1010 AC). Or perhaps he was granted a new > dominion somewhere north of Mirros, west of the Duke�s (er, King�s) Road. > Does anyone have any ideas? I think there was something about this in the latest Almanac? Would any of the Almanac People step up please? > While I�m thinking of it, has anyone worked up stats for Sir Grygory, or > worked out a chronology as to when the major events in the novel took place? > I seem to remember some mention of Yuschiev in one of the net almanacs, but > now I can't find it. I havent seen stats yet, but I would really like to see the things you mention here. > I didn�t really care for Dark Knight of Karameikos, I thought it was pretty > mediocre even for a game related novel. However, some of the characters > would fit nicely into a Karameikos campaign, and another Traladaran noble > can only be a good thing for Karameikos in the long run. I liked the novel up till the end when it became clear that t was just a lousy attempt to fit Mystara with the AD&D cosmology. It would be very interesting to see writeups for characters and events to be fitted with the Canon timeline though. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Why Olivia, not Stefan, is a good ruler. >> So what you're saying is that it's OK for Thincol to try to take advantage of his "friend" Stefan because Stefan's the one who proposed the deal? << Nope. What I'm saying is that its absurd to argue that Thincol took advantage of Stefan. Period. I tried to make that point in a polite way, but obviously that didn't work - so I'll put it more bluntly. And I'll do that throughout my response to this mail now, so that there is less chance that they'll be twisted again. Obviously, this argument is simply an attempt by the Karameikos Propaganda Machine to exculpate his actions during the Wrath War in retrospect. But Stefan didn't complain at the time that he got taken advantage of; Stefan didn't complain during the revolt that he caused and the assassination attempts against him that his behavior precipitated that he got taken advantage of; Stefan didn't complain in AC 1000 that he got screwed over in the deal. Hell, Stefan didn't even use as his excuse at the time of his betrayal that "Thincol screwed me over in the trade, so I don't have to keep my obligations to him." It is only now, when he's called on his behavior, that the Propaganda Machine comes forward with this excuse to exonerate his behavior in retrospect - inventing anything to make him look good and justify his betrayals. But that is exactly what evil people do; they come up with self-serving justifications to excuse their behavior and make it seem like the other guy deserved it. The only people who would be fooled by this self-serving "Thincol took advantage of Stefan" bit are people who are unaware of the facts. Lets look at one aspect of the facts, however. And that is that if it was ANYONE who deliberately and conciously took advantage of a friendship in this trade, it was Stefan. Why? Well, look at the context of the trade in question: at the time, Stefan knew that Thincol was trying to rebuild the Thyatian military, but was short of funds to do so. He knew that this was a high priority for the Empire, needed for its security. Did he, Stefan, not only a loyal friend but a loyal and honorable Thyatian patriot, step forward and offer to Thincol, his friend, to help this important rebuilding by providing additional financing and the like? No, not Stefan. Instead, he knew he had Thincol over a barrel - Thincol needed funds now, so as rich as Traladara could be in another generation of smooth (Thyatian) rule, he knew his friend and liege would be inclined to accept a bad deal if it provided him with immediate funds. That's what happened. Look at Machetos on the map - it's not that much of a prize as Thyatian dominions go, really. Stefan knew what he was doing. Therefore, the self-serving, retroactive excuses of the Karameikan Propaganda Machine to explain Stefan's betrayals can be seen for what they are: so much rubbish. >> friend or no? I don't buy it; friendship works both ways. << Except in Stefan's case, and his propagandists; then friendship only works one way - to Stefan's benifit. When it doesn't, it can be thrown over the side, and excuses invented retroactively to justify the betrayals. >> Canon-wise, you're probably right. I just don't believe this is a wild assumption to make. << Ahh, I see: so this is just another retroactive invention used to justify Stefan's betrayal and make him look better than his actions warrant. >> Stefan chose fighting the Master as the higher moral cause. << I'll keep from laughing, but by now we can see what Stefan's "higher moral cause" is: himself. He chose fighting the Master of Hule as the easy way out, and indeed it succeeded in convincing the gullible as a justification for his betrayal of his homeland and selling out of his friends. They'll even go so far as attempt to retroactively claim alliances were involved in order to make his actions seem justified. Propaganda Machine in action. > And you know what? THINCOL KNOWS THIS TOO! << I have only one thing to call this, which is what it is: a filtly lie intended to make Stefan look good at Thincol's expense. > And to reiterate another point I made earlier, blood is thicker than water. Stefan had a family he'd almost certainly lose by going to his "friend's" side in the war. Not an evil choice in my book. << But, instead, another evil lie by the Propaganda Machine to rationalise Stefan's behavior in retrospect. There's no evidence that Stefan would lose his family in the war. Indeed, Thincol didn't lose any member of his family, and they actually fought in the war. >> Another point: If Thincol felt that Stefan's actions during the war were inexcusable, why didn't he have his troops level the place after the war ended? << Treaty with Alphatia tied Thincol's hands; see, Thincol, unlike Stefan, KEEPS his oaths. That's the same reason he didn't level Helskir or Ochalea & the Pearl Islands after the war ended. Plus, shortly after the end of the war, the Crime Syndicate Protective Association for bandits (Ylaruam), pirates (Five Shires) and betrayers (Karameikos) forms, so that they can continue to benifit from their crimes (and continue to engage in them) but deter anyone from punishing them for them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:39:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos >> That's is the fault of his personal style of rule (despotism), and also of his weakness (compared with the Empire's), which let the Traladarans think they could get away with their revolt. << Ahh, but they didn't *know* of "his weakness (compared with the Empire's)", because they were deluded by the same lie everyone else was into thinking Stefan was still *part* of the Empire, as you wrote: >> As the Gaz says, Stefan had always used the title of Grand Duke as a way of saying "hey, don't attack me, because I am part of the Thyatian Empire" (which wasn't true) << So they couldn't have revolted simply because they believed that Stefan wasn't backed by Imperial Might, because that was all part of the deception. They then instead revolted purely because of Stefan's rulership style (despotism, as you point out). >> As the Gaz says, Stefan had always used the title of Grand Duke as a way of saying "hey, don't attack me, because I am part of the Thyatian Empire" (which wasn't true), and when being part of the Empire started having more drawbacks than usefulness, he made clear that he was on his own in the loudest possible way. << Yep; such deception and manipulation not exactly being the stuff of Tales of High Honor and Nobility, though. But I'll agree that (from a technical standpoint) he's a Despot rather than a Tyrant as such. >> BTW, self elevation isn't that rare in Mystara (Zendrolion in a notable past case, the Duke of Cimarron a modern one). << Zendrolion's a bad guy, though; that I think everyone agrees upon: his betrayal of a friend in founding the Thyatian Empire (as opposed to Kingdom) finding only one "modern Mystaran" echo. . . As for the "Duke of Cimarron", that's not an example of self-elivation: John of the Wayne actually discourages and is embarassed by the usage, which is promoted by the people of Cimmaron, not John. Indeed, he discourages and refuses to use the title himself partly for one of the same reasons I alluded to regarding Stefan's adoption of the title King: he wants to avoid political embarassment and friction with his neighbors, who are somewhat offended by the suggested/proposed elivation in John's title and the status of Cimmaron. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:44:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Archives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, The Stalker wrote: >> > Several days ago, someone mentioned the link to the archives of the MML, but naturally I didn't note it down :( dnd.starflung.com << That would have been me. Actually WotC has their own archives. The starflung site only has material that Shawn has had time to put up, while the WotC site has all messages sent to the MML. In fact I use it as a sort of messageboard so that my mailbox is not filled up with the countless e-mails that this list generates. That site is located at: http://209.67.104.4/archives/mystara-l.html Hope that helps. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara >> I acknowledge a difference between those tyrants and, say, the conquest of Messenia or the foundation of some colonies (where the locals where essentially reduced to the rank of slaves and replaced by Spartans). In this case, the government wasn't different than the original one in Sparta, therefore it could not be a tyranny (though the natives suffered a worse fate). << That's a point, BUT: as bad as the things are that I might say about Ericall, for instance, they would not include an accusation that he reduced the natives to essentially slavery. Indeed, in your comparisons between Stefan & Ericall, you forgot one, I think: and that is that both are native scions of a slave-holding society who seem to have forbade slavery in "their" Kingdoms (the Gaz. for Karameikos specifically says Stefan outlawed slavery and conditions like serfdom. I have to say that I get a similar impression of Norwold, at least as far as the slave thing goes. There's nothing that explicitly says that slavery is outlawed in Norwold, but it is probably true that Ericall didn't attempt to reduce the natives to Slavery, as was done in Esterhold.) Therefore, IMO, it makes it more of a "Tyrannt put in rule over the locals" situation than a "conquer locals, reduce to slavery, replace with our guys" situation (Esterhold would be more like that, with the locals being reduced to slave status, and Alphatians brought in). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara Larry Lamb wrote: >> Are you takeing into acount of the new generation of Karameikos? They are the ones that will solidfy the Kingdom. << And they might prove to be decent people and good rulers, but that's no indication of whether Stefan is. One has to look at Stefan himself and his actions in order to determine that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:03:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Almanacs in PDF? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Has anyone created PDF-format conversions of the internet-created Almanacs Of Mystara? If so, does anyone know where these PDF's are available? The almanacs have no pdf version. The next one should, though. I could also convert the older ones to pdf at the time, though i guess that'll wait till after this edition of the almanac is wrapped up. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos Demmero@AOL.COMwrites: >> Just to play devil's advocate. << Goodie. 8-) >> Did not the Shires *request* permission to sack the Black Eagle Barony? << Stefan should have, at *minimum*, contributed to the effort. >> I may be mistaken, but I thought that was the case. What's more, I think that the whole Shire-Barony situation *could* be preceived as Lawful Good--I mean, if the Hin were the ones who were wronged in the first place, are they the ones entitled to their vengeance. << Ahh, but they were wronged (how? You know, we here about the Black Eagle being a so-and-so, but he oddly never actually seems to do anything. For example, frankly I'm surprised at how quiet he was during all of WotI - you'd think he'd have stirred things up, one of the "Black Eagle Revolts" scenarios would have been used, but nothin. He just. . .sort of. . .fizzles out. "What are these movies trying to tell us about life?" - Crow T. Robot. Where was I? Oh, yah): they were wronged (or "wronged") by Stefan's vassal, a man he was and remained responsible for. They weren't wronged by some independent party that Stefan had nothing to do with. >> Maybe they didn't trust Stefan with the responsibility of arresting his own cousin. << Well, I agree with you on that score. I wouldn't trust Stefan either. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:05:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canon Mystara sources have listed him as "Lawful" and "Good" as far as I can remember, so I doubt they're typos. Actually, the "real" canon sources (i.e. Gaz1) list him as OD&D Lawful. That could easily translate into AD&D Lawful Evil (since the OD&D alignment does not always imply moral values). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:12:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Female Tyranny Idea David Knott wrote: > Given the way I had Empress Eriadna oppressing the PCs in my campaignabout ten years ago, I would not be at all surprised if (had that campaign continued into the PWA era) they concluded that Dolores and Eriadna were one and the same individual. Notice that once again we have two individuals who are never seen together. << Heh. 8-) I wonder what, if anything, that says about how Adriana might reign when the Old Fossal finally kicks the bucket. Probably not much, but one could make much out of the name with the characters, to heighten their paranoia. . . >> Another creepy idea -- at the time that campaign ended, Ericall was the only Alphatian who had shown himself to be anything other than a throughly creepy villain. Thus, for my PCs -- "The only good Alphatian is a dumb Alphatian"? << Hmmmn. . .I'd better not comment here. I get in enough trouble on my own. *_+ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikosian Dominions and the Dark Knight of K >> was the location of Baron Yuschiev's lands ever mentioned? He > had relations with Traladaran communities in the Rugalov River valley, but his own lands weren�t near there. << >> I think there was something about this in the latest Almanac? Would any of the Almanac People step up please? << In MA 1016 he was mentioned as having his lands in eastern Karameikos, near Rugalov Keep. I don't think the specific site was mentioned explicitly, though, so if he's not supposed to by "canon" have his lands actually on the Rugalov River Valley, they can be placed west of Rugalov Keep/village, along the Estron road. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Hoisted on his own Petard AKA "payback's a B-word" > As the Gaz says, Stefan had always used the title of Grand Duke as a way of saying "hey, don't attack me, because I am part of the Thyatian Empire" < Lets flash back to AC 1007, Stefan's anouncement and his claim for why it's ligitimate and not a seccession and betrayal: Stefan: "Oh, Karameikos has been independent the whole time, actually. That 'Grand Duke' thing was just a ruse concocted between Thincol and myself to delude people into thinking Traladara. . .er, Karameikos. . .was still part of Thyatis. It wasn't really." Observer: "Sounds rather convenient, claiming to have always been independent now that it serves your interest to create that impression. Why should we believe you?" Stefan: "Well, see right here, I have a good reputation. Plus, just ask Thincol, he'll bear me out that this is the case." Observer goes to Thincol and asks him: "Is what Stefan is saying true?" Thincol: "What do *you* think?" Observer: "Well - it seems kind of dubious to me, I mean, he says he was always independent now that the Empire needs its dominions to be loyal but he doesn't want to." Thincol: "a little too neat sounding for him, you mean?" Observer: "Um, yah." Stefan: "Oh, but I have proof! Documents!" Observer: "oh, but you had 'proof' that the Empire was at your back when you were a Grand Duchy, too. Anything can be fabricated. Why should we believe you now when you said you've been lying to us for over thirty five years? Which is the truth? You were lying then, or you're lying now?" Stefan: "Oh, I'm telling the truth! Thincol will back me up that this was the truth!" Thincol: "It's obvious that Stefan is a liar and a deciever." Observer: "Hmmmn. . .seems rather convenient for him to claim he's always been independent, now that the Empire needs him. But why would Stefan, known as a good man, betray Thyatis and disobey his liege?" Thincol: "My agents have uncovered the reason. You'll see who's honorable and telling the truth. It turns out that Stefan did this after signing a treaty with the Empire's enemies, the Alphatians, just the other day. Teldon negotiated the terms. Karameikos will get a school of magic, built and staffed by Alphatian wizards, in return for turning his back on the Empire. It's all a payoff. Don't let words decieve you. Watch what happens in the future - you'll see the truth." Stefan: "Um. . . but. . .er. . .Karameikos was independent the whole time! You've got to believe me!" Observer: "Believe you that you lied and decieved the world for over thirty years, only to be 'truthful' now that it's convenient for you to claim independence? I think I'll do what Thincol suggested, and watch and see." Some years later, just as Thincol said, the Alphatians build a school of magic in Karameikos, and staff it with some of their most renowned wizards. Not long after, Alphatians help the Karameikans build the "Concordia". Yes, it becomes clear why Stefan sold out the Empire. But do people believe him when he says that the "Grand Duchy" thing was all a sham meant to convince people that Karameikos was still part of the Empire? And does the Thyatian Empire help him prove this assertion? Or do they do what they can to cast doubt upon it? As I said at the start: Payback's a b**ch. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard wrote: > Personally, im wondering why it was moved since having Alphatia in > Mystaraspace makes Mystaraspace much more interesting. Why? It always seemed better to me that they were not even of Mystara's Prime Plane. Why? Well, Alphatians being extra-planar invaders just seemed natural :) > You may be right about the term Mystaraspace, but the space beyond Mystar= a > has been mentioned in several articles of VotPA, other Dragon magazine > articles, CoM, the PWAs and several modules aswell. Yep. But Mystaraspace as a term implies "crystal spheres" which implies "Spelljammer isn't a figment of a madman's imagination" a concept which it alien to me (Sorry Leroy!). =20 Sorry about all that - I never liked Spelljammer, and probably never will. For that matter I don't like Planescape either. It's gotta be a relic left over from when i was the last D&D player on the block after everyone left for AD&D2! Oh well. I'll shut up now! :) Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:05:40 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > >> I acknowledge a difference between those tyrants and, say, the conquest of Messenia or the foundation of some colonies (where the locals where essentially reduced to the rank of slaves and replaced by Spartans). In this case, the government wasn't different than the original one in Sparta, therefore it could not be a tyranny (though the natives suffered a worse fate). << > > That's a point, BUT: as bad as the things are that I might say about Ericall, for instance, they would not include an accusation that he reduced the natives to essentially slavery. [...] > Therefore, IMO, it makes it more of a "Tyrannt put in rule over the locals" situation than a "conquer locals, reduce to slavery, replace with our guys" situation (Esterhold would be more like that, with the locals being reduced to slave status, and Alphatians brought in). IMHO, this just doesn't really weakens my point. I mean, even if you are a colonizer, you're not bound to enslave anyone you meet. You might be tempted to do so, or see it as "right" thing to do, but you may have your reasons to do differently, if it fits with your tastes, and your government policies. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:59:59 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> BTW, if people are really interested in Mystaraspace (I prefer to call it simply "The Void"), you might want to check out John Calvin's website at It's not official by any means, but I thought there was some good stuff there... Hope my mail is in the post now, John ;) << Just sent it off ;) I ought to just put you on the payroll. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:03:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In a message dated 2000-11-04 5:55:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: >> > > How many nations or groups of people are thought to come from another > > planet? > > Emerondians > Grens (Kavyids name, only Benekander is still alive) The name was not original with me -- I derived it from Gamma World materials in conjunction with descriptions of Benekander as well as the Emerondians. I would assume that the Emerondians, the "Pyritheans", and the crew of the Beagle were all members of this same human-like race noted for its resistance to magic as well as complete lack of any sort of magical (arcane/psionic) talent. << This is also what I assumed, however IIRC the MA has made the Emmerondians out to be vaguely insect-like. Could someone who worked on the Emmerondians extrapolate on where they got their information. Is there some canon material that I'm missing, or are the insectoid-Emmerondians purely fan based material? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:20:14 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Hoisted on his own Petard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > AKA "payback's a B-word" [long dialogue snipped] All this discussion is what would probably happen, but since in the end the other countries (Darokin, the Shires, Ierendi, Ylaruam), would rather have Karameikos independent then a Duchy of the Empire of Thyatis, they will "believe" Stefan anyway. Sure, the Thyatians of Karameikos would be badly impressed by Stefan's actions, but their nobles are more or less on the same line as Stefan, and at this point he has already managed to get so many foreigners (Alfheimers, Alphatians) settle in Karameikos, that he can play each ethnic group against the other. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:09:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > The name was not original with me -- I derived it from Gamma World > materials in conjunction with descriptions of Benekander as well as > the Emerondians. I would assume that the Emerondians, the > "Pyritheans", and the crew of the Beagle were all members of this > same human-like race noted for its resistance to magic as well as > complete lack of any sort of magical (arcane/psionic) talent. > << > > This is also what I assumed, however IIRC the MA has made the Emmerondians out to be > vaguely insect-like. Could someone who worked on the Emmerondians extrapolate on where > they got their information. Is there some canon material that I'm missing, or are the > insectoid-Emmerondians purely fan based material? > > John I think the latter is true. I suspect that someone has been working to change the Emerondians into Nameccians (a race of aliens that belong to the Dragonball manga). Personally I don't like that comic, but everyone is free to use his favourites in Mystara. I called a lot of NPCs similarly to RW figures, and used a lot of song titles in my article titles. And I could be wrong about this whole Nameccian stuff. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:34:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Hoisted on his own Petard >> would rather have Karameikos independent then a Duchy of the Empire of Thyatis, they will "believe" Stefan anyway. << Well, they would accept & support his independence - but they wouldn't look on him as some pure and noble man of heroic virtue. That'd be impossible. People wouldn't see him as someone admirable to look up to. That'd have to cut deep for a man who has always prized his image as much as Stefan has. >> he has already managed to get so many foreigners (Alfheimers, Alphatians) settle in Karameikos, that he can play each ethnic group against the other. << Yep; he's a master of divisivness. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:22:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > This is also what I assumed, however IIRC the MA has made the Emmerondians out to be > vaguely insect-like. Could someone who worked on the Emmerondians extrapolate on where > they got their information. Is there some canon material that I'm missing, or are the > insectoid-Emmerondians purely fan based material? > > John I think the latter is true. I suspect that someone has been working to change the Emerondians into Nameccians (a race of aliens that belong to the Dragonball manga). Personally I don't like that comic, but everyone is free to use his favourites in Mystara. I called a lot of NPCs similarly to RW figures, and used a lot of song titles in my article titles. And I could be wrong about this whole Nameccian stuff. << Ahhh, yes. I do remember having this discussion with people on the MMB a while back...you just jogged my memory. I had always envisioned the Emmerondians as being descendents of the original Beagle crew. Nice tie ins to Blackmoor and the Cult of the Frog that way. But like you say, to each his own. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:16:29 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Chronicles of Nentsun- Part Four: We Have Heaven (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> With stern determination, and a hate for the land that had abandoned him in the hands of those orcs which he hated as well, Hjika unified in a dozen of years all the major orcish clans of the hills under his iron fist. Then he moved to the Inheritance of Heaven. << >> It took a lot of time before the authorities of the various kingdoms understood what was happening. Although the situation had become much better and the population had begun to grow, contacts were few and the population sparse in the region. Hjika knew this. His aim was not to occupy all the land, it was just to kill as many Nentsunians as possible and then build a new kingdom for his orcs. When the other states of Nentsun managed to raise an army, Hjika pondered what to do. If he won, he could have Nentsun at his feet�but if he lost, it would mean the end. Currently he held the possession of one of the best regions of the Inner Circle, that of Einikushagi, formerly settled by rakastas, all fled or killed during Hjika�s invasion. Hjika sent envoys to the allied armies and sued for peace in change of the recognition of his authority on Einikushagi. The human leaders agreed. The rakasta leaders were enraged, but Hjika promised to free all the rakastas enslaved and captured by his troops, and the human leaders convinced the rakastas to accept (731 AC). << Ok, this part I don't understand. What is Hjika's purpose for invading the lands? Is it to exact revenge, or is it to gain a homeland? It sems that he starts out to exact revenge upon those who abandoned him, but then when faced with an opposing army he seems to decide that what he really wanted was a home of his own. Ultimately he chooses not to risk defeat in order to keep this home. The first attitude I find very orc-like. The second attitude...well not so orc-like. Especially from an orc who is seething with hatred. >> By the way: the envoys had all arrived in Selemy, but they were all put to death or killed as rebels by the allied Nentsunian forces. They couldn�t forgive Hjika for his victorious campaign of 728-31 AC. << I like this part of the history. It just seems fitting. However, were I Hjika I think that I would have considered a third option. Guerilla warfare. In other words, fight the opposing army. If you win then all is good (except that now you have to find new enemies to slaughter), and if the tide of battle seems to be going against you, well then slip out the back way. After all, after the treatment he recieves from his stepfather I wouldn't think that he has much love for the orcs either. Then he can live to fight another day. Orc numbers replenish quickly. He could have another army in no time. In the mean time he can stage small raids that while they won't gain him much, at least he can go on killing those he hates. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:50:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: MA Five Shires Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't mean to be critical of others' work but, I guess I gotta in this case ... The hin are not hobbits. They do not live in "burrows." There is, in fact, a fairly lengthy discussion of hin homes in their gazetteer. I wish the 1015 entry for the Five Shires felt more like it stemmed from what was in the gazetteer, not what a steretypical -- and inaccurate for Mystara -- view of halflings. (I could also argue about the entry's depiction of the hin masters as priests, since the gazetteer never says word one about them leading prayers or tending to the spiritual life of the halflings, but that is certainly more undefined territory.) Just standing up for the little guys. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: MA Five Shires >> I don't mean to be critical of others' work but, I guess I gotta in thiscase ... >> Just standing up for the little guys. << I can't remember, but you were the guy who was interested in, perhaps, joining the MA to contribute something with respect to the Shires in the future, right? Well, all *I* can say in response to the points you raise is that they are all the more reason for you to do so. "Some" members of the MA team joined it due to, er, concerns over how this or that region was being portrayed. So I'd encourage you for the same reasons; as I said in my earlier encouragement for your participation, the Shires are one of the places that doesn't currently really have a "champion" on the Team (someone interested in them specifically and thus knowing all the ins and outs and details &tc). I wasn't on the MA Team for 1015, personally, so I don't know who wrote that entry, it pretty much, IMO, doesn't matter who was specifically responsible. But I just say, if you have concerns, feel free to air 'em, and join for next year so you can help put them right. Carthaginiensis Delendus Est ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:12:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: MA Five Shires In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:30 11/06/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >I can't remember, but you were the guy who was interested in, perhaps, joining the MA to contribute something with respect to the Shires in the future, right? Yep. >Well, all *I* can say in response to the points you raise is that they are all the more reason for you to do so. "Some" members of the MA team joined it due to, er, concerns over how this or that region was being portrayed. So I'd encourage you for the same reasons; as I said in my earlier encouragement for your participation, the Shires are one of the places that doesn't currently really have a "champion" on the Team (someone interested in them specifically and thus knowing all the ins and outs and details &tc). I wasn't on the MA Team for 1015, personally, so I don't know who wrote that entry, it pretty much, IMO, doesn't matter who was specifically responsible. No, it doesn't. I really don't want to assess blame, but just express frustration and the hope that people writing these quasi-canon materials have more familiarity with the settings they write about, even if they don't have much passion for it. The 1016 entry, for instance, is very workmanlike, doesn't advance things particularly, but it's all 100 percent correct. That's fine in my book, although I'd love it if every country had neat hooks in every edition -- something I'm fully aware is extremely unrealistic. >But I just say, if you have concerns, feel free to air 'em, and join for next year so you can help put them right. Once the new one is finished and things calm down with the team, I intend to throw my hat into the ring. I've got three or four good substantive ideas for the setting that can serve as adventure hooks without upsetting the setting to do so. (Which is what some people, I believe, have endorsed.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:27:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: The krondar of Stillpool Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (Just to torture Dierdre.) Stillpool, Seashire is a farming village of just under 400 souls that borders a small spring-fed pool. In hot weather, the village is plagued by mosquitoes and other insects. The village's half-timbered homes stand amongst widely spaced tall and ancient pines. The village lays on the north-south road leading from Fishtickle Bridge to Burny in the south. The northwestern edge of town has a number of small factories, including a famous wheelwright's shop and a good smithy. The village has one inn - the Running Hin - and two taverns - the Seven Swords and the Pineview. Stillpool is a quiet place, and the residents emphatically prefer it that way. KIP LITTLESHADE Lawful Neutral male halfling krondar Kip Littleshade is a lifelong resident of Stillpool, Seashire. He's graduated from being a busybody and something of a bully to being a krondar by dint of impressing the right sheriff at the right time. In truth, Stillpool's quiet has little to do with Kip, but he's glad to take credit for it when meeting with his superior. He's easily pushed around by the town's clan elders - especially the elders of Clan Littleshade - which means they tend to support his role as the town's sole law enforcement official. Kip is a wiry halfling with close-cropped brown hair, a red nose and perpetually flushed cheeks. Except during the darkest days of winter, he is always sweaty, fanning himself with a filthy handkerchief and drinking prodigious amounts of alcohol. He is never seen not wearing his krondar's tunic and with his rod of justice in his hand, which he often uses as a back scratcher. A dull-witted (Wisdom 8) slave to the rules, Kip cares about few things other than being able to get along in life doing as little work as possible, being able to tell people what to do and - for those rare moments it's possible - finding some relief from the constant biting of Stillpool's insect population, who seem to find him irresistible. Kip is of average intelligence, but is slow-witted, lazy and more interested in giving orders than doing actual work himself. The few times he's been called on to investigate a problem, he used bullying and intimidation to get answers, although if one of the Stillpool clans provided him with a ready-made scapegoat, he did not hesitate to agree with them. As a result, he's on a first-name basis with the clan elders of the area, along with their errand boys. Kip loves to constantly chew tobacco, but he's a real slob about it, and flecks of chewing tobacco coat his lips and tobacco stains dot his clothes and feet. Kip Littleshade, male halfling Fighter 7: CR 7; Small humanoid; HD 7d10 +7; hp 49; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 18; Atk +10 melee (2d8+3, rod of justice), or +10 ranged (1d4+1, sling); AL LN; SV Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10 Skills - Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 5 Feats - Alertness, Focus: Rod of Justice, Focus: Unarmed, Improved Unarmed Strike, Specialized: Rod of Justice, Track Possessions - Battle axe, sling, chain shirt, rod of justice, 1 arrow of justice BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:14:28 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 6:00:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: > Ahhh, yes. I do remember having this discussion with people on the MMB a while > back...you just jogged my memory. I had always envisioned the Emmerondians > as being > descendents of the original Beagle crew. Nice tie ins to Blackmoor and the > Cult of the Frog that way. But like you say, to each his own. I would certainly agree with that interpretation. The VotPA article set in their realm has a black and white picture that suggests that Emerondians look very much like Humans. The racial description in that article confirms that impression but suggests that their skin has a greenish color. Thus, I would suggest that the Emerondians are descendants of the "Grens" (a Gamma World term) who created the FSS Beagle. Summary of Gren characteristics (again based on Gamma World): Ability score adjustments are +2 to Con, Int, and Cha and -2 to Wis. They save vs. magic at +2. They are incapable of casting arcane magic or gaining psionic abilities. Cultural tradition denies them divine magic as well, but the Emerondians at least broke with that tradition so that some of them were able to become Druids or Rangers. Against any form of attack that might mutate them or alter their form, they receive a saving throw bonus of +2 (cumulative with bonus to save vs. magic). If they fail their save, they die rather than suffer the resulting mutation or form-altering effect. One final note -- far future descendants of the Grens eventually become the Oards. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:19:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Hoisted on his own Petard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> would rather have Karameikos independent then a Duchy of the Empire of Thyatis, they will "believe" Stefan anyway. << > > Well, they would accept & support his independence - but they wouldn't look on him as some pure and noble man of heroic virtue. That'd be impossible. People wouldn't see him as someone admirable to look up to. That'd have to cut deep for a man who has always prized his image as much as Stefan has. Well, he can still use his propaganda machine (or, more realistically, Olivia's), to regain popularity. Politicians from neighbouring nation will hardly see him as a pure and noble man, but I don't think they did (or cared) before. As to the common people, they will only see "the noble ally in our resistance against the Master of Hule". > >> he has already managed to get so many foreigners (Alfheimers, Alphatians) settle in Karameikos, that he can play each ethnic group against the other. << > > Yep; he's a master of divisivness. 8-) The problem with Stefan is that you never know when he's done some bright move on purpose, or it is just another strike of luck. -- Giampaolo Agosta ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 02:25:18 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 12:51:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU writes: > Sorry about all that - I never liked Spelljammer, and probably never will. > For that matter I don't like Planescape either. It's gotta be a relic left > over from when i was the last D&D player on the block after everyone left > for AD&D2! Oh well. I'll shut up now! :) For the record (and as an alternative opinion): I like both Planescape and Spelljammer, but I strongly dislike the idea of forcing Mystara to conform to their cosmology. Mystara on the one hand and Planescape/Spelljammer on the other hand should be kept well apart from each other. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:33:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Krakatos MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just read Jeff Grubb's wonderful two Karameikos articles from the "Dragon." (Pity he didn't do more; I would have liked to see him take on Highforge and Threshold.) There's an apparent discrepency with the write-up of Krakatos in KKoA, though: The map in his article makes the town look like it's got maybe 200 residents, tops, but the boxed set the population is actually 10 times that. Is the map just a close-up on the area surrounding the KSoM? Both sources make it sound like the town has only existed since WotI. If the town existed before that (say, in Gaz1 ...), then that could logically be taken to mean the map in the "Dragon" was actually just around the college and that the older town is described in the Gaz. Could anyone with the Gazetteer take a peek for me? I'm planning on gently suggesting (...) that Krakatos be the base of operations for my Karameikos players' characters soon, and I wanted to get to work on the town, adding the Sleeping Dragon Inn, agents of the Iron Ring and fleshing out the school ... Thanks. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:58:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Krakatos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > There's an apparent discrepency with the write-up of Krakatos in KKoA, > though: The map in his article makes the town look like it's got maybe 200 > residents, tops, but the boxed set the population is actually 10 times > that. [..] > If the town existed before that (say, in Gaz1 ...), then that could logically > be taken to mean the map in the "Dragon" was actually just around the > college and that the older town is described in the Gaz. In Gaz 1, Krakatos is marked and described as a ruin. It is not inhabited, or at least there is no population figure in the description. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 03:02:54 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 6:49:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: > Only according to WotI. > Originally, Alphatia was in a distant part of Mystaraspace. > Personally, im wondering why it was moved since having Alphatia in > Mystaraspace makes Mystaraspace much more interesting. The common thread is that it is remote from Mystara -- keep in mind the many centuries of interplanar wandering that the Flaems underwent until they reached Glantri. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 03:02:55 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Harald the Lich (was Tyrannies of Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 6:49:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, gmcc@ESATCLEAR.IE writes: > Although > their 'sponsers' have been Haaskinz (now a lich), Morphail, Etienne, > Malachie - not all of them really nasty, not one of them really nice. Your comment about Haaskinz is interesting -- in my own campaign I ran an AD&D adventure that required the death of a monarch, so I sacrificed Harald Haskinz for that purpose. The PCs then stopped John Beaumarys-Moorkroft's plot to interfere with his son's succession and thereby gained a powerful friend in the new Duke of Westheath. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 03:02:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Elves of the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-06 9:36:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, jlz@ESCELSA.COM.BR writes: > Are there half-elves in Mystara? Yes for the Savage Coast region. Probably not for the Known World region (contrast Gaz 5 with 2E boxed sets). > How they are used in game? Like an > elf-class or like a human-class(Fighter, Thief, Mage...)? Most PC Elves are Fighter/Mages. > How is elven afterlife? They are immortal like in AD&D? They are very long lived mortals -- approximately 800-1000 years, as another poster indicated. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, SteelAngel wrote: > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, [iso-8859-1] H�vard wrote: > > > Personally, im wondering why it was moved since having Alphatia in > > Mystaraspace makes Mystaraspace much more interesting. > > Why? It always seemed better to me that they were not even of Mystara's > Prime Plane. Why? Well, Alphatians being extra-planar invaders just seemed > natural :) Well, maybe this is simply because I was so involved with the Mystara Space Project. But having Alphatia in Mystaras galaxy allows Voidships to travel there. In a Mspace campaign, it even allows interraction between Mystara and (Old)Alphatia on a larger scale. Think of a potential war between two interstellar civilizations. (This would have to be set in Mystaras future obviously). Also, this doesn't really remove any plot seeds involving Alphatia as an outer plane. The Flaems could still have arrived on Mystara through plane travel. The Norwold whirlpool could still be a gate to Old Alphatia etc.. > > You may be right about the term Mystaraspace, but the space beyond Mystara > > has been mentioned in several articles of VotPA, other Dragon magazine > > articles, CoM, the PWAs and several modules aswell. > > Yep. But Mystaraspace as a term implies "crystal spheres" which implies > "Spelljammer isn't a figment of a madman's imagination" a concept which > it alien to me (Sorry Leroy!). Aha! I actually didnt see that implication from the term untill you mentioned it. I agree with Kavyid that Mystara shouldnt conform to the cosmologies of either planescape or Spelljammer. As mentioned above, I think Alphatia should be located somewhere else in Mystaras galaxy, not within the same solar system. The term Mystaraspace would imply Mystara as a center of the universe/sphere, but my reason for using this term is that Mystara is our starting point in exploring that space. We could ofcourse instead refer to it as the Void. > Sorry about all that - I never liked Spelljammer, and probably never will. > For that matter I don't like Planescape either. It's gotta be a relic left > over from when i was the last D&D player on the block after everyone left > for AD&D2! Oh well. I'll shut up now! :) I was more opposed to using spelljammer elements when Mystara was abandoned and Spelljammer was not. These days, I am more open to ideas involving stealing elements for SJ, although I still think that Mystaras flavour must be preserved when doing this. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:06:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: <20001106220304.8103.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, John Calvin wrote: << This is also what I assumed, however IIRC the MA has made the Emmerondians out to be vaguely insect-like. Could someone who worked on the Emmerondians extrapolate on where they got their information. Is there some canon material that I'm missing, or are the insectoid-Emmerondians purely fan based material? >> The Emerodians ride insectlike mounts. This is from VotPA (canon). I'm not sure how the insect-features were transferred from the beasts of burden to the masters, but that must be fan based. The Mystara Space project had theories on the Emerondians as plant-based humanoids, but AFAIK there was still nothing insectlike about them, although I seem to recall Dragonball-references, but I'm not familiar with that series so I may have missed their implications... H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:20:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Krakatos In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106233352.0079e500@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > I'm planning on gently suggesting (...) that Krakatos be the base of > operations for my Karameikos players' characters soon, and I wanted to get > to work on the town, adding the Sleeping Dragon Inn, agents of the Iron > Ring and fleshing out the school ... Krakatos was the old village where Halav fought the King of the Beastmen. It was considered a holy site and a destination of Traladaran pilgrimage. IMC there was a small village located near the ruins of Krakatos, even before Terari set up the School of Magecraft there. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:36:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaraspace Comments: cc: havardfa@stud.ntnu.no In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, David Knott wrote: > I would certainly agree with that interpretation. The VotPA article set in > their realm has a black and white picture that suggests that Emerondians > look very much like Humans. The racial description in that article confirms > that impression but suggests that their skin has a greenish color. Thus, > I would suggest that the Emerondians are descendants of the "Grens" (a > Gamma World term) who created the FSS Beagle. I have a couple of objections. 1) The Mystaros timeline, although not canon places the Emerondians as descendants of people from Epsilon Eridani. Epsiolon eridani is described in canon sources as a civilization using magic. 2) According to VotPa, the Pyrithians, ancestors of the Emerodnians, were space pirates living in an asteroid field. Personally, I dont see them surviving out there without magical aid. 3) Canon sources indicate that Mystara is not known by the Galactic Federation. Also Benekander is the only survivor of the Beagle. A Theory of Reconciliation: Epsilon Eridani was a far outpost of the early Federation. However, it was abandoned, quite a few gren families were left isolated on that world. Through the generations, the Grens adapted, learning to use magic, but losing some of their other abilities. Eventually they became the Pyrithians, a great civilization known for their artificially (or magically) bred insect servants. Eventually the Pyrithians were contacted by the Blackmoor civilization, and launched an expedition to Mystara. The expedition arrived in Mystara space and realized that the Blackmoor civilization was no more. Lacking resources to return to their homeworld, the expeditionary force settled in an asteroid field near damocles, preying on Damoclean Voidships (They have limited capabilities, and haven not been able to reach the next planet so far.) A small group of these pirates eventually settled on Mystara becoming the Emerondians. > Summary of Gren characteristics (again based on Gamma World): > > Ability score adjustments are +2 to Con, Int, and Cha and -2 to Wis. > > They save vs. magic at +2. > > They are incapable of casting arcane magic or gaining psionic abilities. > Cultural tradition denies them divine magic as well, but the Emerondians > at least broke with that tradition so that some of them were able to become > Druids or Rangers. > > Against any form of attack that might mutate them or alter their form, > they receive a saving throw bonus of +2 (cumulative with bonus to save > vs. magic). If they fail their save, they die rather than suffer the > resulting > mutation or form-altering effect. > > One final note -- far future descendants of the Grens eventually become > the Oards. Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:50:19 CET Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Mystaraspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Aren't there canon information in CM7 The Tree of Life different from those given in the Immortal Gold Box? Who knows more (I don't own CM7)? Federico _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:37:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We hereby present you with an interesting twist on the 'intelligent = magic sword'. The sword has it's origins in the Northern Reaches, but = could just as easily be used elsewhere. Concept and description by Larry = Lamb (boondale@aol.com); history and revised/clarified powers by Jacob = Skytte (scythe@wanadoo.dk). Vallmr the Ghost Wolf History There once was a well-known jarl in the kingdom of Ostland. This jarl = had only one son, but was very proud of him. When the boy turned 10, the = jarl began to have frightening nightmares concerning his son. In these = dreams his son was stalked by a great white wolf out in the woods. No = matter how the jarl tried to warn him, his son never heard, and was = attacked and killed by the wolf. The jarl became worried, and = over-protective of the boy. When winter came the howls of wolves were heard in the hills. The jarl = still had frightening nightmares, and they became more vivid as the = weather grew colder. Whenever the jarl woke in the night from terrible = dreams, he heard the howls of the wolves out in the hills. In the = mornings he would go with his men to check their traps for any wildlife. = However, at each and every trap all that they found were bloody remains = and the tracks of a huge wolf. As the winter progressed, and the darkness became more oppressive, the = jarl became convinced that his dreams were of a prophetic nature. His = nightmares became more detailed, and he was certain that his son would = die before the end of winter. He confided in the household godar = (priest), and asked him for advice. The godar told him that such a = recurring dream must surely be a prophetic one, and that the jarl would = do well to seek aid if he would save the life of his son. The jarl knew that in the nearby mountains of Graabjerge, there lived a = clan of Modrigswerg dwarves. Since they knew dark magics, he felt that = they were the only ones capable of saving his son from the fate the = Norns had woven for him. He sought out the Modrigswerg, travelling with = a small band of men carrying all the riches of his household, and = offered them as gifts if only the Modrigswerg would help him save his = son. The head of the clan took his gifts, inspected them, and replied = that this was a good start; the Modrigswerg would help him, by forging a = sword, but he needed more men to help work the bellows. A few days later the jarl returned with all of his thralls and offered = them to the head of the clan. The dwarf accepted, looked them over and = said that this was all well and good, but he needed all the metal the = jarl could muster, including his weapons, if the sword should be = finished before the end of winter. The following day, the jarl returned with all of the weapons and other = metals of his household, including his wife's jewelry. The head of the = clan took a look at them, and said that this would suffice. The jarl = could return home, and wait for the Modrigswerg to finish work on the = sword. When the jarl came back to his household, he found that everybody was = leaving. His warriors left since they had no weapons, and would receive = no pay; his wife left since he hadn't touched her since the nightmares = began, and he had taken all of her jewelry; and his thralls he had = already given away to the Modrigswerg. Only his son remained with him in = the empty house. That night the howls of the wolves came ever closer to the house until = the jarl felt that the wolves were at his very door. The following = morning he looked outside and saw huge wolf prints all around the house. = When night fell the wolves returned. The jarl and his son huddled at the = fireplace as he heard the wolves clawing at the doors and shutters, and = he feared that they would break through. He did not fall asleep until = morning, and when he woke he inspected the house and found huge claw = marks on every door, and in some places the wood was giving in. Fearing for his son's life the jarl took the boy by his hand and started = the journey to the Modrigswerg dwarves. By then it was late afternoon, = and the shadows were lengthening. As darkness fell, the jarl picked up = the pace, but it was still a long way to go. When the howling started, = the jarl started running, carrying the boy, when he couldn't keep up the = pace. He had reached the last part of the woods, when he heard footfalls = behind him. Looking back the jarl saw the huge white wolf of his dreams, easily = following him through the woods. It was a magnificent beast, muscular, = and with a fine coat. It's eyes seemed to be glowing faintly, and it's = teeth seemed awfully dark. The jarl ran as fast as his legs could carry = him, but he knew that he could not escape the wolf. As he felt the wolf = almost reaching him, he tossed his son as far as he could, and dived = forward, prepared to fight the wolf barehanded to buy time for his son. The jarl hit the ground hard, and felt the air being pressed out of his = lungs as the white wolf landed on his back pressing him into the snow. = He tried grappling with the wolf, but it's great weight pinned him down, = and he was unable to get a good grip. Just as he felt the wolf's jaws = close around his throat, he heard a great howl and felt the wolf being = torn away from him. Disbelieving, he saw the wolf rolling in great pain, a sword of the = blackest metal stuck through it's back. As the wolf thrashed around in = the snow, it slowly lost it's strength. As the wolf died a mist of pure = white formed above it. The mist slowly took on the form of the white = wolf, and started to turn from the scene and leave. But as the body of = the wolf finally lay still the mist started being drawn towards the = black sword. Though the wolf spirit fought against it with all of it's = might, there was nothing it could do. It was absorbed into the sword. = The jarl's son was saved. It is not certain what happened to the jarl afterwards, though = persistent rumors tell of him wandering the land, a beggar stripped of = all his possessions. His son, however, grew up to become a mighty = warrior, wielding the sword in many a battle, and calling upon the = spirit of the wolf to strike down many an opponent. Eventually, or so = the tale goes, he returned to his home, and in the woods the wolf spirit = possessed him and took his life, fulfilling the prophetic visions. Description The sword is a 6-foot long two-handed sword. The pommel is fashioned as = a wolf's head made of gold with rubies for the eyes. The blade is of a = strange metal that is normally a pale white in color, but when wetted = turns black. Blood grooves line the blade. The guard is golden with a = silver etching of the word "Vallmr" in runes on both sides. The handle = is made of bone wrapped in white wolf fur with a silver chain. The legends concerning the sword are well-known by most skalds, and they = will recognize it on sight. Others from the Northern Reaches are likely = to at least have heard of the sword, and may well recognize it, at least = by it's name "Vallmr". Powers The two-handed sword is in itself a +3 weapon. Since it is possessed by = the spirit of the white wolf it gains additional powers. It is = considered an intelligent sword with an intelligence of 7 (12 in AD&D 2E = terms) and an ego of 4. It can communicate with it's wielder through = limited empathy, though it rarely does. It is of neutral alignment. It = constantly Sees Invisible (20' range) and may or may not inform it's = wielder of what it sees. If the word Vallmr is spoken aloud by it's wielder, the spirit of the = wolf will leave the sword, being a ghost in the shape of a dire wolf. = Vallmr the ghost wolf has all the powers of an ordinary ghost (using = whatever rules set you prefer). It will always attempt to use it's magic = jar ability first, usually on an opposing character, but sometimes on an = ally or on the wielder of the sword. Failing that Vallmr will usually = semi-materialize and attack for a few rounds. It can return to the sword = at will, and will be drawn automatically back to it after 10 rounds have = passed, and will then be unable to leave the sword for another 10 = rounds. If Vallmr is Turned by a cleric while outside the sword, it will be = forced back prematurely. If Turned while within the sword it will be = rendered unable to act for 10 rounds. If Vallmr is Destroyed by a cleric = while outside the sword it will be permanently destroyed. If Destroyed = while in the sword, the sword will break, but Vallmr will still be = trapped within it. The sword can likely only be mended by Modrigswerg = smiths, and they will demand a high price for this service. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:01:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf (long) In-Reply-To: <003001c048b1$0e979400$4cc861d4@skytte> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT This is very cool stuff Jacob! The story fits well into the genre of norse myths and the weapon is original and cool. I'd love to use it in a future campaign :) Keep articles like this one coming. H�vard On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Jacob Skytte wrote: > We hereby present you with an interesting twist on the 'intelligent magic sword'. The sword has it's origins in the Northern Reaches, but could just as easily be used elsewhere. Concept and description by Larry Lamb (boondale@aol.com); history and revised/clarified powers by Jacob Skytte (scythe@wanadoo.dk). > > > Vallmr the Ghost Wolf > > History > There once was a well-known jarl in the kingdom of Ostland. This jarl had only one son, but was very proud of him. When the boy turned 10, the jarl began to have frightening nightmares concerning his son. In these dreams his son was stalked by a great white wolf out in the woods. No matter how the jarl tried to warn him, his son never heard, and was attacked and killed by the wolf. The jarl became worried, and over-protective of the boy. > > When winter came the howls of wolves were heard in the hills. The jarl still had frightening nightmares, and they became more vivid as the weather grew colder. Whenever the jarl woke in the night from terrible dreams, he heard the howls of the wolves out in the hills. In the mornings he would go with his men to check their traps for any wildlife. However, at each and every trap all that they found were bloody remains and the tracks of a huge wolf. > > As the winter progressed, and the darkness became more oppressive, the jarl became convinced that his dreams were of a prophetic nature. His nightmares became more detailed, and he was certain that his son would die before the end of winter. He confided in the household godar (priest), and asked him for advice. The godar told him that such a recurring dream must surely be a prophetic one, and that the jarl would do well to seek aid if he would save the life of his son. > > The jarl knew that in the nearby mountains of Graabjerge, there lived a clan of Modrigswerg dwarves. Since they knew dark magics, he felt that they were the only ones capable of saving his son from the fate the Norns had woven for him. He sought out the Modrigswerg, travelling with a small band of men carrying all the riches of his household, and offered them as gifts if only the Modrigswerg would help him save his son. The head of the clan took his gifts, inspected them, and replied that this was a good start; the Modrigswerg would help him, by forging a sword, but he needed more men to help work the bellows. > > A few days later the jarl returned with all of his thralls and offered them to the head of the clan. The dwarf accepted, looked them over and said that this was all well and good, but he needed all the metal the jarl could muster, including his weapons, if the sword should be finished before the end of winter. > > The following day, the jarl returned with all of the weapons and other metals of his household, including his wife's jewelry. The head of the clan took a look at them, and said that this would suffice. The jarl could return home, and wait for the Modrigswerg to finish work on the sword. > > When the jarl came back to his household, he found that everybody was leaving. His warriors left since they had no weapons, and would receive no pay; his wife left since he hadn't touched her since the nightmares began, and he had taken all of her jewelry; and his thralls he had already given away to the Modrigswerg. Only his son remained with him in the empty house. > > That night the howls of the wolves came ever closer to the house until the jarl felt that the wolves were at his very door. The following morning he looked outside and saw huge wolf prints all around the house. When night fell the wolves returned. The jarl and his son huddled at the fireplace as he heard the wolves clawing at the doors and shutters, and he feared that they would break through. He did not fall asleep until morning, and when he woke he inspected the house and found huge claw marks on every door, and in some places the wood was giving in. > > Fearing for his son's life the jarl took the boy by his hand and started the journey to the Modrigswerg dwarves. By then it was late afternoon, and the shadows were lengthening. As darkness fell, the jarl picked up the pace, but it was still a long way to go. When the howling started, the jarl started running, carrying the boy, when he couldn't keep up the pace. He had reached the last part of the woods, when he heard footfalls behind him. > > Looking back the jarl saw the huge white wolf of his dreams, easily following him through the woods. It was a magnificent beast, muscular, and with a fine coat. It's eyes seemed to be glowing faintly, and it's teeth seemed awfully dark. The jarl ran as fast as his legs could carry him, but he knew that he could not escape the wolf. As he felt the wolf almost reaching him, he tossed his son as far as he could, and dived forward, prepared to fight the wolf barehanded to buy time for his son. > > The jarl hit the ground hard, and felt the air being pressed out of his lungs as the white wolf landed on his back pressing him into the snow. He tried grappling with the wolf, but it's great weight pinned him down, and he was unable to get a good grip. Just as he felt the wolf's jaws close around his throat, he heard a great howl and felt the wolf being torn away from him. > > Disbelieving, he saw the wolf rolling in great pain, a sword of the blackest metal stuck through it's back. As the wolf thrashed around in the snow, it slowly lost it's strength. As the wolf died a mist of pure white formed above it. The mist slowly took on the form of the white wolf, and started to turn from the scene and leave. But as the body of the wolf finally lay still the mist started being drawn towards the black sword. Though the wolf spirit fought against it with all of it's might, there was nothing it could do. It was absorbed into the sword. The jarl's son was saved. > > It is not certain what happened to the jarl afterwards, though persistent rumors tell of him wandering the land, a beggar stripped of all his possessions. His son, however, grew up to become a mighty warrior, wielding the sword in many a battle, and calling upon the spirit of the wolf to strike down many an opponent. Eventually, or so the tale goes, he returned to his home, and in the woods the wolf spirit possessed him and took his life, fulfilling the prophetic visions. > > Description > The sword is a 6-foot long two-handed sword. The pommel is fashioned as a wolf's head made of gold with rubies for the eyes. The blade is of a strange metal that is normally a pale white in color, but when wetted turns black. Blood grooves line the blade. The guard is golden with a silver etching of the word "Vallmr" in runes on both sides. The handle is made of bone wrapped in white wolf fur with a silver chain. > > The legends concerning the sword are well-known by most skalds, and they will recognize it on sight. Others from the Northern Reaches are likely to at least have heard of the sword, and may well recognize it, at least by it's name "Vallmr". > > Powers > The two-handed sword is in itself a +3 weapon. Since it is possessed by the spirit of the white wolf it gains additional powers. It is considered an intelligent sword with an intelligence of 7 (12 in AD&D 2E terms) and an ego of 4. It can communicate with it's wielder through limited empathy, though it rarely does. It is of neutral alignment. It constantly Sees Invisible (20' range) and may or may not inform it's wielder of what it sees. > > If the word Vallmr is spoken aloud by it's wielder, the spirit of the wolf will leave the sword, being a ghost in the shape of a dire wolf. Vallmr the ghost wolf has all the powers of an ordinary ghost (using whatever rules set you prefer). It will always attempt to use it's magic jar ability first, usually on an opposing character, but sometimes on an ally or on the wielder of the sword. Failing that Vallmr will usually semi-materialize and attack for a few rounds. It can return to the sword at will, and will be drawn automatically back to it after 10 rounds have passed, and will then be unable to leave the sword for another 10 rounds. > > If Vallmr is Turned by a cleric while outside the sword, it will be forced back prematurely. If Turned while within the sword it will be rendered unable to act for 10 rounds. If Vallmr is Destroyed by a cleric while outside the sword it will be permanently destroyed. If Destroyed while in the sword, the sword will break, but Vallmr will still be trapped within it. The sword can likely only be mended by Modrigswerg smiths, and they will demand a high price for this service. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 07:32:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Sorry about all that - I never liked Spelljammer, and probably never will. > For that matter I don't like Planescape either. It's gotta be a relic left > over from when i was the last D&D player on the block after everyone left > for AD&D2! Oh well. I'll shut up now! :) I actually do like SpellJammer (don't have much info on Planescape though), but I wouldn't play it "as is" in Mystara. I rather like the feel of the VotPA more, and a straight up SpellJammer would ruin that feel. If the PA wanted to get from point A to point B, it had to make the journey (and endure all of the hardships that that implies). There's plenty of room for adventure along the way, and PCs might encounter something they never expected. A ship travelling at SpellJamming speeds however isn't forced through this route. If they want to get from point A to B, they simply get there. Much more boring IMO, especially when dealing with planetary adventures. My solution is to treat all SpellJammers as Airships when close to a large gravitational body (a planet, moon, or asteroid...or even other ships in space), and to treat Airships as SpellJammers when not confined by a gravitational body. Add in the skyshield, and you effectively confine "SpellJammer technology" to a more familiar Airship tech, while planetside. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Thyatis Character Reference website opens > The Thyatis Character Reference team is glad to announce that the TCRWebsite is now open.< web address is, for those who don't already know: www.geocities.com/talerio Carthaginiensis Delendus Est ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Hutaakan Valley Comments >> Justice: I was wondering what their laws were, though. What constitues a criminal deed? Any odd/unusual laws? << >> Details, details, details! I'd imagine that their laws are similar to those of most countries << Yah, but those law details help people see what sets the place apart from other places, I.E. the laws asside from the "usual ones". Plus, the unusual laws can make for bizzare adventure twists (sure, the visiting characters know that the locals probably aren't happy with murder, theft, and rapine, but the laws they don't "assume" can get 'em hooked). > Health Care: reference to modern, IRL situations seemed oddly incongrous. >> Sorry, I'm a sucker for anachronism! I loved AC?11? (the gnomish devices book) for instance. If I had to do it over, I wouldn't remove these, even if most folks don't like them. I think it helps to have standards which people can relate to, making the culture easier to understand. << Yes, but the overt references to modern countries (same with Jury thing too) kind of undercuts the atmospherics. For example, with the health care thing it came off as more political than humorous, but a more subtle-but-pointed description would have more pizzaz. Anyhow, it was good overall, I'm just quibbling over details! Carthaginiensis Delendus Est ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:10:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> I have a couple of objections. 1) The Mystaros timeline, although not canon places the Emerondians as descendants of people from Epsilon Eridani. Epsiolon eridani is described in canon sources as a civilization using magic. 2) According to VotPa, the Pyrithians, ancestors of the Emerodnians, were space pirates living in an asteroid field. Personally, I dont see them surviving out there without magical aid. << Although for the most part I do like the Mystaros timeline, I never did really like this portion. It just makes things more complicated than they need to be. If both the Emerondians and the Pyrithians are descendants of the Beagle, then we only need one colonization event... the initial crash of the craft. This way the Emerondians are a part of Blackmoor from the start. Any greenies we find around Mystara space (ie the Pyrithians) can be assumed to be "colonists of Blackmoor." I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that during its later years Blackmoor managed to reach space. I actually don't have a problem with "Grens" developing magical/and or psionic abilities once they reach Mystara. Especially if you consider that 1) they appear to be able to manipulate genetics, and 2) perhaps they can interbreed with the native (and magic wielding) populations. >> 3) Canon sources indicate that Mystara is not known by the Galactic Federation. Also Benekander is the only survivor of the Beagle. << Not true. St. Stephen survived, along with plenty of other crew members. The captain survived. The ship survived. Even if we assume that time traveling PCs take care of these intruders during their adventures, it is not a far stretch to assume that some of those greenies, somewhere, managed to escape the Beagle and live long natural lives (and produce descendents). You might be able to say the Benekander is the only Beagle crew member to survive to the present day...that might be true (although I do have plans for a certian St. Stephen and a stasis chamber), but I just can't imagine that no descendents of the crew would be found in present day Mystara. >> A Theory of Reconciliation: Epsilon Eridani was a far outpost of the early Federation. However, it was abandoned, quite a few gren families were left isolated on that world. Through the generations, the Grens adapted, learning to use magic, but losing some of their other abilities. Eventually they became the Pyrithians, a great civilization known for their artificially (or magically) bred insect servants. << Certainly St. Stephens Cult of the Frog can explain this just as well. IIRC that little group was involved in genetic experimentation. >> Eventually the Pyrithians were contacted by the Blackmoor civilization, and launched an expedition to Mystara. The expedition arrived in Mystara space and realized that the Blackmoor civilization was no more. Lacking resources to return to their homeworld, the expeditionary force settled in an asteroid field near damocles, preying on Damoclean Voidships (They have limited capabilities, and haven not been able to reach the next planet so far.) A small group of these pirates eventually settled on Mystara becoming the Emerondians. << I don't like this for the reason I stated above. It simply introduces complications that are not IMO needed. Remember the Beagle had some problems with Mystara space (causing it to crash). Getting to Mystara with Federation tech should not be an easy (or safe) task. In fact some might argue that it is impossible (or nearly so...with the Beagle being the victim of a fluke accident). Later it might be possible to have Blackmoorian tech leave the planet in Voidships (or SPellJammers or whatever) because they would have developed a sort of "technomancy", a way to integrate pure Federation tech (which has some problems around Mystara) with magical tech (which probably causes those problems in pure mechanical tech). [IMC this is exactly what I do. Of course Blackmoor tech or technomancy is not perfect because of course it caused the GRoF.] John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:52:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Krakatos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Were can I find that article? I�m VERY interested in that school of magic, because in my campaign I train apprentices in eastern Karameikos, too... Who�s that archmage???!!! -gummel- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:21:05 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Hutaakan Valley Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Yah, but those law details help people see what sets the place apart > from other places, I.E. the laws asside from the "usual ones". Plus, the > unusual laws can make for bizzare adventure twists (sure, the visiting > characters know that the locals probably aren't happy with murder, > theft, and rapine, but the laws they don't "assume" can get 'em hooked). Like I said before, I should definitely have fleshed this out more. The dominance of religious and technocratic viewpoints will influence the legal structure and will allow for many unknowing player violations of the law. > Anyhow, it was good overall, I'm just quibbling over details! Thanks - while some of the quibbles (regarding anachronistic terms) are ones I disagree with, most were helpful. It's always nice to get feedback and discussion on any project. - Mischa "To complain to Nader supporters that they are hurting Gore is like blaming the Beatles for knocking Perry Como records off the charts" - John Passacantando, Greenpeace USA ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:28:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Krakatos In-Reply-To: <3A083368.53329226@fhwt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 17:52 11/07/2000 +0100, Daniel Mayer wrote: >Were can I find that article? I=B4m VERY interested in that school of >magic, because in my campaign I train apprentices in eastern Karameikos, >too... Who=B4s that archmage???!!! -gummel- "Dragon" #207. The article is "The Magic of Karameikos" by Jeff Grubb. It gives a brief history of Krakatos, some information about the school and a simple map of the town, with adventurer-specific details of things like inns and taverns. ("Dragon" #206 gives the same kind of attention to Fort Doom.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Krakatos > Were can I find that article? I�m VERY interested in that school ofmagic, because in my campaign I train apprentices in eastern Karameikos, << Issue 207, I think it was. >>... Who�s that archmage???!!! << Just some refugee, I heard. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:02:52 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dittos!! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:23:33 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/2000 11:40:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: << Our Master has ordered the immediate termination of Captain Scaevola, who is getting too dangerous with his knowledge. Alrethus, Scribe of the Master >> Oh, Alrethus, you kidder, ha ha ha , you know that the captain was just joking ha ha ah (laughing just a little too hard and looking nervously at Alrethus) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Krakatos In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106233352.0079e500@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:33 PM 11/6/00 -0800, you wrote: > > Both sources make it sound like the town has only existed since WotI. If >the town existed before that (say, in Gaz1 ...), then that could logically >be taken to mean the map in the "Dragon" was actually just around the >college and that the older town is described in the Gaz. Gaz 1, Page 5: "Krakatos is a ruined stone-walled village of antiquity... It has no inhabitants and should not be used as an origin-place for characters." As noted by others, it was originally a village of the golden age Traladarans, but fell to the attacks of the Beastmen, or some time after that perhaps. In any case, it hasn't been inhabited until very recently, with the construction of the Karameikan School of Magic. However, I would suggest that the map in Dragon is a condensed version of the area just around the college, and that there are other structures and farms, etc. that are not depicted. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaraspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Federico Kaftal wrote: > Aren't there canon information in CM7 The Tree of Life different from those > given in the Immortal Gold Box? Not really. CM7 doesn't do very much to contradict any Gold Box sources. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:34:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacob Skytte wrote: > We hereby present you with an interesting twist on the 'intelligent magic sword'. The sword has it's origins in the Northern Reaches, but could just as easily be used elsewhere. Concept and description by Larry Lamb (boondale@aol.com); history and revised/clarified powers by Jacob Skytte (scythe@wanadoo.dk). My congratulations to Larry and Jacob. An interesting work, and, apart from the very good background, the weapon is perfect for many campaigns because: 1) it is a good weapon but it is balanced: it won't destroy a campaign if someone uses its powers, and if your player uses it too much, well the Wolf is there to catch him 2) it provides a good background for a weapon instead of old dull "sword +3 with this power" 3) it is strictly tied to Mystaran references I wish there were more of these...however I am never been good to write magical items (does this mean that I believe to write good material otherwise? maybe yes...). Just one question: is the background story for the sword the "actual truth" or is it the "legend" behind it? I can't think of a jarl so worried that he ruined himself for a dream...or maybe I am too rationalizing, here? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:38:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Tyrannies of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Master's Pawn wrote: > In a message dated 11/5/2000 11:40:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: > > << Our Master has ordered the immediate termination of Captain Scaevola, > who is getting too dangerous with his knowledge. > > Alrethus, Scribe of the Master > >> > > Oh, Alrethus, you kidder, ha ha ha , you know that the captain was just > joking ha ha ah (laughing just a little too hard and looking nervously at > Alrethus) > > Uhm....maybe you two should take a look to my "Stefan, Dark King of Karameikos" article up at Shawn's, to see what my thoughts are regarding the matter. Captain Scaevola, whose Thyatian arrogance probably exceeds his will to survive ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:50:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Chronicles of Nentsun- Part Four: We Have Heaven(long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Ok, this part I don't understand. What is Hjika's purpose for invading the lands? Is it > to exact revenge, or is it to gain a homeland? It sems that he starts out to exact revenge > upon those who abandoned him, but then when faced with an opposing army he seems to decide > that what he really wanted was a home of his own. Ultimately he chooses not to risk defeat > in order to keep this home. Well, what can I say. I think that Hjika desire of revenge had dwindled after all the havoc he brought to the land, while he probably begun to become more ambitious and cold-tempered, instead of remaining a hot enraged young orc. He saw the possibility to become king of a rich land, and especially considered his background, I don't think it would be impossible at all for him to change ideas. Revolutionaries often start their life thinking to blow up the system, then they become part of the machine (see 1920s communist leaders in USSR...if you think they were true to the communism's theories or if they forged a new aristocracy of party leaders). However, most of the orcs were too violent to be stopped, and *puff!* > By the way: the envoys had all arrived in Selemy, but they were all put > to death or killed as rebels by the allied Nentsunian forces. They > couldn�t forgive Hjika for his victorious campaign of 728-31 AC. > << > > I like this part of the history. It just seems fitting. Thanks! I didn't want to give the impression that the Nenstsunians are all good guys. Definitely they're not, as the Nova Lepidoptera part also shows...or the power struggles between clergy and military...he eh eh > However, were I Hjika I think that I would have considered a third option. Guerilla > warfare. In other words, fight the opposing army. If you win then all is good (except > that now you have to find new enemies to slaughter), and if the tide of battle seems to be > going against you, well then slip out the back way. After all, after the treatment he > recieves from his stepfather I wouldn't think that he has much love for the orcs either. No, he was a real outcast. Thus, his war was somehow useful for his ambition (delusion) that he could carve a niche for himself in the societies that had treated him so bad... and this is the reason he was so quick to accept the offer. I suppose I should re-write that part to explain this. I admit frankly that I hadn't thought of why he accepted, but I thank you for having provided me the opportunity to re-work on parts that are not very clear. What do you think of this option? If you have better ideas, I would be glad to hear them from you. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Mac version of Campaign Cartographer (or similar programmes) Hi all, Jennifer Guerra asked me to forward a question to you all (which I would have done before yesterday had other things no come up, but anyhow...). She would like to know whether or not a Mac-compatible version of Campaign Cartographer exists out there. She's checked Apple.com, with no luck. Any responses should be sent to valerya1@yahoo.com. Thanks, Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:25:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: She's baaack! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello everyone! Yes, I'm back on the MML! My schedule is not exactly as flexible as I had hoped it would be for my return, but I did miss this good ol' list! :-)) A little bit of new on the home front: 1) A reminder that my old Webtv.net address is no longer functional. From now on, my primary address is this one, valerya1@yahoo.com. 2) In case you're not on my web list, my Traladaran Mini-Gazetteer is now available at my website (address below). I encourage feedback - just don't throw rocks! ;-) 3) The submissions deadline for tome of Mystara #6 is now less than a month away - send queries if you plan to submit! My personal address is fine. ...Okay, now that the legal stuff is over with, I'm glad to be back, and I look forward to catching up with everything the Mystaran community has to offer! i can't promise that I'll respond as much as I'd like to, as Real Life (*cue scary music*) is still a factor, but I'll be lurking in the shadows at the very least! It's good to be home... Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:44:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: She's baaack! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:25 11/07/2000 -0600, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >...Okay, now that the legal stuff is over with, I'm glad to be back, and I >look forward to catching up with everything the Mystaran community has to >offer! i can't promise that I'll respond as much as I'd like to, as Real >Life (*cue scary music*) is still a factor, but I'll be lurking in the >shadows at the very least! > >It's good to be home... Welcome back, Jenn. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:50:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Gazetters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:48:52 +0000, Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: <> Yes... in my house... :p *sorry, couldn't resist this one!* Anyway, there's no place that has ALL of the Gaz stored for sale in Italy. U must try your luck in small RPG shoppes or in big stores like I Giochi dei Grandi or Unicorn. And just in case u wondered: No, I AIN'T SELLING my GAZ! :) Ciao! DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:20:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Sorry... Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry about posting that first message twice. I thought it had bounced again. What an entrance, Jenn! Break basic rules of Nettiquette! Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:23:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: [ToM] Need cover art! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all! Well, I have just learned that, due to extraneous circumstances, that we do not have a cover artist for the upcoming Tome of Mystara issue. Anyone who would like to submit prospective artwork is invited to query at my private address. ASAP if you're interested, please! :-) Thanks in advance, Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:42:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caroletti wrote: > My congratulations to Larry and Jacob. Thanks. =20 > 3) it is strictly tied to Mystaran references Well, Larry's original concept was not for Mystara, but for a generic = Norse campaign. =20 > I wish there were more of these...however I am never been good to = write > magical items (does this mean that I believe to write good material = otherwise? > maybe yes...). I have a few more artifacts of the Modrigswerg, but they're a lot = nastier, and players aren't likely to use them, unless they're of the = evil kind... > Just one question: is the background story for the sword the "actual = truth" or > is it the "legend" behind it? I can't think of a jarl so worried that = he ruined > himself for a dream...or maybe I am too rationalizing, here? It is presented as a legend, or as a skald would tell the legend. = Whether there is any truth to it, is really up to the individual DM. = Only the Modrigswerg would know for sure, anyway, unless you want the = 'fallen' jarl to appear in your games. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Sorry... JFG wrote: > Sorry about posting that first message twice. I thought it had bouncedagain. << Well, I only got it once. Welcome back. 8-) Carthaginiensis Delendus Est ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:01:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > I wish there were more of these...however I am never been good to write > magical items (does this mean that I believe to write good material otherwise? > maybe yes...). I have a few more artifacts of the Modrigswerg, but they're a lot nastier, and players aren't likely to use them, unless they're of the evil kind... << I loved the sword so I'd like to see some of these! John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:47:11 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Larry Lamb Subject: Re: Sword of Vallmr the Ghost Wolf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ad.29e709d.2739ee7f_boundary" --part1_ad.29e709d.2739ee7f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow! hehe.. Im glad that you all like the sword. It took me awhile to write the basic version of it. --part1_ad.29e709d.2739ee7f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow! hehe..  Im glad that you all like the sword. It took me awhile to write
the basic version of it. --part1_ad.29e709d.2739ee7f_boundary-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:46:47 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Sorry... In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/7/00 4:59 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > JFG wrote: >> Sorry about posting that first message twice. I thought it had bouncedagain. >> << > > Well, I only got it once. I apologized too soon, it seems. Wizards' server caught the duplicate and bounced it back to me. > Welcome back. 8-) > > > Carthaginiensis Delendus Est Thanks! :-) Jenn -- Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:21:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: M1 chemical problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have recently acquired 2nd hand copies of M1 and M2 (from the Invisible Ink series) and, as expected, there's no "magic pen" and some of the entries are blank and some revealed. I'm quite lucky, because the revealed ones have not faded into illegibility, as it usually happens, but I'm getting nuts trying to break the invisible ink... so I wonder if some MMLister has faced the same problem before or has a better grasp of chemistry as I do... I suppose that the ink used is based on the writing in a acid or base solution which would be revealed when applying a pH contrast (in the pen)... the writing in the revealed is purple, so I imagine that, with standard contrast, the ink should be a base. Fading of the revealed sections would come out by oxidation of the ink stuff once exposed. Seeing the yellow tint of the blank paper in the inked areas, I guess that the "magic pen" product included something like iodine solution, but, I tried to apply iodine to a small section corner to no avail... maybe the proportions were not right (I think i used 40% alcohol, 4% iodine and rest water)... Is there any Mystaran chemist around???? Otherwise, has anybody a readable (and revealed copy) and could the section text be shared??? I've visited a Blizzard Pass project page, but it's far from complete and looks like a dead link by now... I'm asking without knowing if my asking violates copyright issues... I own the product, it's just not readable as of a time limitation (even if there were pens around, they should have dried off since the 80's) I also wonder if Wizards of the Coast has any details of the ink composition and could be contacted in order to make the many 2nd hands copies available playable... as the items are not in-print anymore, that's not going to bring about any loss of purchases or anything else. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:24:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaraspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-07 5:56:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: > I have a couple of objections. > > 1) The Mystaros timeline, although not canon places the Emerondians as > descendants of people from Epsilon Eridani. Epsiolon eridani is described > in canon sources as a civilization using magic. Obviously I did not use that source. > 2) According to VotPa, the Pyrithians, ancestors of the Emerodnians, were > space pirates living in an asteroid field. Personally, I dont see them > surviving out there without magical aid. Then maybe they developed divine magic before they colonized Emerond, unless they remained reliant on their original technology -- which is what I assumed. > 3) Canon sources indicate that Mystara is not known by the Galactic > Federation. Also Benekander is the only survivor of the Beagle. My theory did not require the Galactic Federation to know about Mystara, as nobody from the Federation who reached Mystara ever made it back. As another poster indicated, it is an open question whether there were other survivors of the Beagle who managed to get off the planet (but not out of the Mystaran solar system, obviously) or the Pyrithians came in another lost Federation ship that they eventually cannibalized to set up their asteroid colony. BTW -- the Oards would be descended from the Grens who stayed in the Federation, not from any colonists on Mystara. They would know of Aelos but not Mystara. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:58:25 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Poll: What is your favourite nation? In-Reply-To: <3A01B226.54605243@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 07:27:50PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 07:27:50PM +0100, Caroletti wrote: > Ok, guys. Now explain me why we are 261 and I have collected just 77 > votes > (plus 3 people who told me they are not going to vote). My vote is for Serraine. (Ok, really I love them all, but Serraine is my current favourite). -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:02:18 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Origin of the name Mystara In-Reply-To: ; from hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:56:00PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:56:00PM +0100, H�vard wrote: > > Bruce Heard made up the name Mystara; meaning Mystery Star. > Anyway, think your theory about the Alphatians makes sense. Most people on > Mystara probably just call it "the world". This would fit nicely with the Blackmoorians. The "mystery star" where strange (magic!) things happen. From this the idea of other worlds could have spread. -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:40:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: M1 chemical problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero wrote: > I have recently acquired 2nd hand copies of M1 and M2 (from the Invisible > Ink series) and, as expected, there's no "magic pen" and some of the entries > are blank and some revealed. I'm quite lucky, because the revealed ones have > not faded into illegibility, as it usually happens, but I'm getting nuts > trying to break the invisible ink... so I wonder if some MMLister has faced > the same problem before or has a better grasp of chemistry as I do... > > I suppose that the ink used is based on the writing in a acid or base > solution which would be revealed when applying a pH contrast (in the pen)... > the writing in the revealed is purple, so I imagine that, with standard > contrast, the ink should be a base. Fading of the revealed sections would > come out by oxidation of the ink stuff once exposed. Seeing the yellow tint > of the blank paper in the inked areas, I guess that the "magic pen" product > included something like iodine solution, but, I tried to apply iodine to a > small section corner to no avail... maybe the proportions were not right (I > think i used 40% alcohol, 4% iodine and rest water)... Is there any Mystaran > chemist around???? > Otherwise, has anybody a readable (and revealed copy) and could the section > text be shared??? I've visited a Blizzard Pass project page, but it's far > from complete and looks like a dead link by now... I'm asking without > knowing if my asking violates copyright issues... I own the product, it's > just not readable as of a time limitation (even if there were pens around, > they should have dried off since the 80's) > I also wonder if Wizards of the Coast has any details of the ink composition > and could be contacted in order to make the many 2nd hands copies available > playable... as the items are not in-print anymore, that's not going to bring > about any loss of purchases or anything else. > > Andr�s > First, I think that M1 and M2 solo modules will be released online, so this will be a moot issue in the next year. But if for some reason they don't make it... I worked with someone on the list a couple of years ago, and traded a working pen for an extra copy of M2.(Is that person still on this list?) A pen I had bought online with a module started working soon after that, I don't know why. As of now, I have a full rendition of M1, split between two copies. I almost have a full rendition of M2, this time with just one copy of the module. I am going very slowly to make sure that the pens don't dry out. Even if you get a working pen, you have to have a good quality module, since I have seen copies where the text has completely faded as to be unrecoverable. I can't imagine that sharing the text is a copyright violation, as long as you have a physical copy of the module. And as for that BP project page, it is dead, I tried contacting the fellow who started it, and he never responded. If WOTC doesn't provide a pdf version of these modules, I plan to submit the full texts to Shawn's site. As far as duplicating the chemicals, I have yet to hear of someone finding the solution. You aren't the first person to inquire. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:24:06 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Web list (was She's baaack!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-11-07 4:53:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, valerya1@YAHOO.COM writes: > 2) In case you're not on my web list, my Traladaran Mini-Gazetteer is now > available at my website (address below). I encourage feedback - just don't > throw rocks! ;-) Does that site also tell us how to subscribe to your "web list"? I am assuming that it is some sort of mailing list to keep up with your creative efforts -- if so, I am very interested in it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.