========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:51:18 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Both (elves have no culture on the Savage Coast, and that native nonhumans > were assimilated are undisputed. But was it wholly assimilated. There are > hints that the nonhumans were not wholly assimilated. For instance, in > Torreon, the great majority of nobility are elves with the rest being pure > Ispan. In Torreon, the elvish language is the language of choice of the > nobility, diplomacy and etiquette in Torreon. > > Saying that nobility has no influence on the culture below is like saying > the Normans who conquered England had zero influence on the culture of the > English. This is true (elves are responsible for chivalry in Eusdria, as well) - but I was aiming at saying that this Ispan/Spanish culture, while it may of been influenced by the natives, probably existed in some form before they actually arrived. Otherwise you are saying Byzantine + native influences = Spanish, which seems like a huge leap to me. I'm just trying to get at what the original Ispans were like, I guess. > Quote: > "The long years of tension and culminating defeats so disgusted the general > populace that the people of Almarron rose up and overthrew the baron. They > embarked on a democracy, using old Traladaran writings as a basis for > government." > > Again, small influence but it is there. Obviously, the Ispans have had the > greatest influence in the Savage Baronies. I'm just saying they aren't > everything. Fair enough. I did consider the Almarronan text to be more proto-Milenian than Traldar (the Traldar aren't known for a love of democracy after all, but the Milenians were - and they were an offshoot of the Traldar race. I'm being picky here though :). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:55:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Reason for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jennifer Guerra > > I've always felt "deep down" that there is much more to Stefan than his > "saintly" portrayal in Canon. There are just too many exceptions to his "LG" > behavior, too many incidents that he overlooked, or didn't know about, or > whatever. And that is one of many examples of why I think Mystara suffered greatly in the transition to 2E AD&D. Back when the "LG" Stefan and the "LE" Jaggar (Prince of Aalban in Glantri) were both simply of "Lawful" alignment, such issues would not have come up. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:21:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's Reason for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > And that is one of many examples of why I think Mystara suffered > greatly in the transition to 2E AD&D. Back when the "LG" Stefan > and the "LE" Jaggar (Prince of Aalban in Glantri) were both simply > of "Lawful" alignment, such issues would not have come up. I don't agree: Stefan was portrayed as "good" even in the OD&D version, and then his actions weren't coherent with his description (which led to the idea that Stefan was "able to select good advisors", but "unable to distinguish good from evil", and therefore unable to select good advisors). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:21:14 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Getting rid of a character non-permanently MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >The PC in question is replaced by a doppleganger. The doppleganger is on the pay of the >Iron Ring, and instead of disposing of the original, it simply delivers him to his evil >"step-mother" or whoever she is. >But the Iron Ring is pretty crafty. They'll prepair for the eventuality that the PCs >will discover the ruse with the doppleganger. They kill some poor bloke and stash him >away in the doppleganger's layer. When the PCs discover the shape changer and try to >find their friend, they are led to a rotting corpse. Mystery solved. Friend dead. > >But not really. When the player is ready to come back (from RL) then he should be able >to pick up his character just where he left off. He might have issues with the other >characters however... > >"Why didn't you ever come for me? Why did you just give up hope?" > >"We thought you were dead..." Oooh. Lots of good suggestions, but this might be the best one yet. << Thanks. I'm going to have to remember it just in case I need it myself. I hope you let us know how this works out for you. Here is a question for those experienced DMs out there. If you were to stage the above scenario, how would you handle it. Would you let the player take on the role of the dopleganger during his or her last few sessions, and then hope that the oher PCs can figure out what is going on before that player has to leave the game? Or would you take control of the PC and then play him as a doppleganger from that point on? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:43:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> The answer is if a bad person tells you something is good do you believe him? << And that's why I don't believe Stefan and his hacks. > that he DELIBERATELY named > Karameikos a "Grand Duchy" in order to CREATE > misconceptions - not to "correct" them. > >> I think this is a silly statement. << Well, Stefan's apologists often claim the truth is "silly" if it isn't flattering to Stefan, but again this is simply fact. Stefan called Traladara a "Grand Duchy" for reasons clearly established in "canon": "Foremost among them was the fact that, by defining Karameikos as a duchy, Duke Stefan created the impression in surrounding nations that the duchy was beholden to, and protected by, the empire of Thyatis." Duke Stefan *created* the impression. The "silly statement" is the claim that he tried to *correct* that misimpression. He did nothing of the kind - he created it. Outlandish and absurd attempts to exculpate him on this score are exactly what they are: an attempted deception that Bozdogan would be proud of. So I repeat: >> The answer is if a bad person tells you something is good do you believe him? << And that's why I don't believe Stefan and his hacks. >> he would have made no contribution to the world. By "invading" Karameilos he could "improve the world" and will be remembered in history well, not just as the x th duke of Machetos (I wouldn't want to suffer that fate either). << And that's why Hosadus "invaded" Sind and Darokin, so he could "improve the world" and will be remembered in history. >> Stefan is not stupid, but also has not made the best choices. Lets get this straight. The master of Hule is EVIL because he worships an Evil god, and imposed this god on others. The ultimate goal, to make Loki the most powerful god (well thats how I see it). If he needs to kill people who don't agree along the way, so be it. Stefan is NOT motivated like this. << No, Stefan is motivated by personal ambition and narcissism. He worships himself foremost (that's why he calls Traladara "Karameikos"). >> The Socratic idea that the informed can make the judgements of right and wrong better then the uninformed is important because stefan believe he knows better then others. Maybe he doesn't but how do you irrefutablly prove it? << Easy: Stefan's "informed judgement" that was "better than others" resulted in 35 years of Ludwig in Halag, along with other depridations. Your screed just begs the question - it doesn't show Stefan is good, you just simply assert the claim that he is good and that he has good judgement. You lack any supporting evidence for that claim. Therefore, it hardly qualifies as a serious refutation of my position, backed as it is by examples of Stefan's *behavior* and *actions* and his *motivations* (which include serving himself - not serving "his" people. Indeed, your own claims support my position: he abandoned his responsibilities to the people of Machetos because being Duke of Machetos didn't serve his grandeous, self-important vision for *himself*. The interests of others had nothing to do with his decisions. He saw himself as of the greatest importance, putting others last. He thus abandons the people of Machetos so that he can go seek personal greatness. He's Max the First on a larger scale. Or Zandor. Zandor doesn't worship any evil gods, either. Zandor, like Stefan, is a self-worshiper.) >> Stafan is not the best ruler of all time but he is a good ruler none the less and although ludwig is an evil barsted and should not rule, isn't he family, and these people who are so big on ancestral obligation don't seem to understand family loyalty. << LOL "Family Loyalty" doesn't mean letting your family members screw & enslave people you are responsible for. That claim is risible, and just shows how void of evidence those who assert that Stefan is a "good ruler" are. The best they can come up with is this. . . >> Good- is generally a nice person and trys to do good, doesn't kill, maim, destroy, etc. And I haven't heard of stefan doing any of this. Sure Ludwig does but they are different people. << The one being the appointee of the other. The one being responsible for appointing the other. I haven't heard of Hosadus killing, maiming, and destroying either. Other people do that - his appointed commanders etc. So by your position, that makes Hosadus as good as Stefan, since neither do the killings & maimings themselves - they just appoint others who do. >> Oh and as far as ancestral obligation's go, thats bull. Why should he care? << Your right - Stefan doesn't care about duty towards others. He only cares about glorifying himself. >> If you think He could be better, justify it with how, who, when, where, with what << Easy: He could have taken some minimal care in making his appointments and handing out lands, so that the people he appointed would not have despoiled the population (". . .many of the Thyatian settlers who poured into the country, swearing loyalty to Duke Stefan and receiving land grants, were ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them." - Gaz1, p.4) Stefan made these appointments regardless of the character of the people he was appointing. He is responsible for what they do. You guys seem to on the one hand say he's a "good ruler" but then on the other hand insist that nothing that goes bad in Karameikos is his fault, like he's a bystander with no responsibility. You can't have it both ways: either he rules the country and is responsible for his decisions and his appointments, or he is a figurehead with no real authority who can't prevent these things. In either case, of course, he's not a good ruler; which is why you insist on fudging the matter ! ! and trying to cloud the responsibility Stefan has. He could have deposed Ludwig rather than letting him continue his depredations for 35 years. He could have attempted to work out at least the minimal "live and let live" position that the Thyatians had with the Traladaran leaders, rather than crushing them all (not just the Marilenev Clan was pushed asside by Stefan), giving some of them Dominions. Instead, he shoves them all asside, something even the Thyatian governors hadn't done, and displaces them. Then he instead appoints to rule in Karameikos the sorts of people described above. He could have been a diplomat, he could have had some respect for the Traladarans and their traditions. He didn't, because he was in such a rush to sieze power for himself. He could have taken better care in who he selected to give lands and positions of authority in Karameikos, but again he didn't - he was in too much of a rush to give a damn. This is your "good ruler". >> how he could thus be remembered by the true account of history(non-country biased) as an influential person who's positive effect's cannot be forgoten (and so must be well remembered). << Of course, my account isn't biased: I take the events as described in the Karameikos Gaz itself. I take his actual actions. Those who point to his "positive decisions" never provide any actual examples except for "he built roads", and taking credit for things that happened without him taking the action (the Hin, not Stefan, clean out Ludwig) or which were done by dubious means (he gets a School of Magic in a pay-off for selling out his longtime allies). "Bias" is what is expressed by those who wish to waive away those parts of the unbiased record ("canon") which aren't flattering to Stefan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> Yes, I'm sure that Stefan is a "hero" to the Traladarans, just as William the Bastard was a "hero" to the Saxon commoners of England. << Exactly. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan: 1,000 years of tyrrany. > The question is how does he use the power? The master > of hule uses it to crush more infidels, while stefan > would use it to make Karameilos better. >> Ask the Traladarans. << Stefan uses his power to crush them. I guess that makes "Karameikos" a better place in some people's eyes. But, as you say: >> Problem is, "Karameikos" seems to refer to the person first, and "his" nation, second. << Guys who want to "mold a nation in their own image" as Stefan set out to do really, usually, aren't such swell fellows, and we can see that in Stefan's behavior. Why are such usually not such swell fellows? Because to "mold a nation in their own image", they have to DESTROY previously existing customs. It doesn't matter to them if the people want to change or not (ask the followers of the Church of Traladara if they want to be "molded" by Stefan). If a custom & tradition the people themselves like stands in the way, it must be destroyed. If people themselves stand in the way, they must be crushed (Marilenev Rebellion). If an institution stands in the way of this "New" programe to remodel the country, then it too must be disposed of (thus, not only are the Marilenevs disposessed, but all the Traladaran leading families are brushed asside, because they stand for a traditional means of doing things that Stefan can't abide if he is to reshape the country: for him to succeed in tha! ! t project, the Traladaran people must be effectively atomized and focuses of potential resistance to his "reshaping" of their civilization are theirfore eliminated). One must also have an "engine of distruction" to carry out this process, so that the Great Helmsman can keep a relatively good reputation by comparison, because a Cult of Personality is also a key eliment in efforts to tear down a country and then rebuild it according to some "vision". Stalin had his Beria. Lennin had his Stalin. Mao had his Madam Mao and the "Gang of Four". Stefan has Ludwig. People are then led to focus their anger and vexation over the destruction that is being perpetrated upon them at the Engine of Destruction (Ludwig in this case), ignoring who's really responsible and even coming to see that person as a sort of "savior-figure" (thus enabling the Cult of Personality). The propagandists then go forth and put all the blaim for the "bad things" on these figures (which are disposable in the end),! ! distracting people from who's *really* responsible - the Maximum Leader/Great Helmsman himself. For Stefan, as the Gaz says, "to rule territory shaped by his hands and formed in his own image" (p.13), requires not only extreme egoism and narcissism, but a conciously or unconciously destructive streak. Because to "shape" Traladara, he would have minimal (at best) respect for the Traladarans who he sets out to "mold" and "shape" and less respect for their customs and civilization. He couldn't care less about the people if they don't fit into his "vision", then they will be pushed into it. What matters are not the people of Traladara - what matters to Stefan is *his* vision, himself only. Narcissistic egoism and a vision of himself as a Nietzschean Superman who has the right to "insure his place in history" even if it means trampling other's to dust and then reforming the dust to suit his whims. >> Stefan wants a quality country, the master of hule believes quality IS quantity << >> And choosing Traladara over little Machetos isn't quantity over quality? << Exactly. You're spot on again, M'lady. But, again, it's part of Stefan's egoism. Citizens of Thyatis have rights which the Imperium demands its dominion rulers respect; that's why he can't just "mold" and "reshape" them according to his whims, and thus why he feels he needs to seek the oportunity elsewhere. Notice that in Traladara ("Karameikos") not only are their no Slaves and Serfs *as* *such* (though the despoiled Traladarans are treated no better than such, really), but there are NO *Citizens* either - nothing stands in the way of Stefan remolding them to create "New Soviet - er, Karameikan - Man". No authority above him to prevent him from abusing his power over people in this fashion (that's why he wanted out of Thyatis: he couldn't mold and reshape the people of Machetos when an authority could intervene to prevent him from doing so), and no "intermediary institutions"/authority between him and the people to stand in the way of such a programe either - no Citizens as such with recognized political input and! ! political rights to vote for a Senate that might obstruct his totalitarian rule, no traditional Traladaran governing institutions could be permitted to remain, because they would compete with him for power & influence in a way that Thyatian dominion rulers created & dependent upon him could not (even Ludwig didn't represent a competing tradition - he was part and parcel of Stefan's regime, not part of a different power-structure); anything that might limit Stefan's ability to "revise" Traladara according to his "Vision" went very early on; the people thus left with no one else to look to for guidance. . .except the Church of Traladara (see below). >> You dont have to kill them, if you actively subvert their religion by calling it a "silly superstition," and building cities (Kelvin) and magic schools upon their holy places. << Which, again, is very similar to how other totalitarian regimes have handled religious institutions. The people like them too much for them to be as simply destroyed as the political institutions that might share authority with you (I.E. the leading Traladaran families), you can't just get rid of the Orthodox Russian Church or Buddhist Temples - so you denegrate them while attempting to co-opt them (the "Maximum Leader" is thus not infrequently "associated" with the faith in question, while not actually believing in it - there's no indication that Stefan is religious in *any* way, I can't find any indication he cares one way or another. He certainly isn't an adherant to the Traladaran faith. And yet we have this Cult of Halav centered around him. Interesting. . .), while also emptying it of content and authority, treating it as quaint superstition, kept around like folkdancing and rendered just as inoccuous. Let the people go pray for the Immortals to deliver them, as a sort o! ! f safety valve against potential unrest. And co-opt the religious sites, as you said: build a Thyatian-style city/fortress over them, or a Alphatian School of magic over them. The holy sites thus get transformed as well as co-opted, and people can't use them as they originally did. I wonder what shrine(s) might have been "dynamited" at or near Krakatos. . . . Crow T. Robot: "ahh, what's this?" (looking at the picture he had comissioned Tom to paint). Tom Servo: "It's a portrait of you as a cruel despot". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:22:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > probally lawful good. Remember this though; lawful- > abides by the law (if he is the law it's even easier > to abide by it, because it is lawful to follow HIS > laws. plus making WAR is lawful act, assassination is I make it a law that murder and pillaging is legal. Am I Lawful or Chaotic? I'm not saying that Stefan did that (because he didn't), but following your OWN laws doesn't automatically make you Lawful. > not. I mean you DECLARE WAR, it is like LAW) Good- is > generally a nice person and trys to do good, doesn't > kill, maim, destroy, etc. And I haven't heard of > It seems that some people think that since Stefan isn't Evil, he must be Good. But neutral people don't kill/maim/destroy either (they do sometimes if necessary, but so did Stefan). Thus I would conclude that based on Stefan's actions, his alignment is something like Lawful-Neutral. > Oh and as far as ancestral obligation's go, thats > bull. Why should he care? just because he was born > there doesn't make it home. Machetos becomes property > Most Lawful Good people would consider places where they were born home, and feel some obligation towards it. Heck, most Chaotic Evil people would consider their birthplace home, too (not so sure about feeling obligation, though). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:28:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan >> The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few or the one. << Yes, but the main point in all of this is that Stefan *never* showed any interest in the needs of the many. He put the needs of the one (himself and his narcissistic "vision" to reshape "the many" in his own solophistic image) first, the needs of "the few" (his cronies, enriched and empowered by being put in positions of authority over "the many" and then left there regardless of their behavior) next, and the needs of "the many" always last. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:27:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > The question is how does he use the power? The master > of hule uses it to crush more infidels, while stefan > would use it to make Karameilos better. Stefan wants a Stefan uses his power to crush infidels (aka Traladaran rulers). > quality country, the master of hule believes quality > IS quantity (and for Loki this is most desirable). The I think you have a wrong idea about Bozdogan's goals :) > crushed infidels definately perfer the stefan type > ruler. I don't know how anyone cannot understand this. You mean "crushed infidels" would prefer to be completely ground underfoot and excluded from all possible power (a la Stefan) to being reduced in power but still ruled by local, though different, rulers (a la Hosadus)? > I'd much rather live in a place that says don't kill, > then a place that says you can kill the disbeliever > and lie to further your god, espesally when the god is > entropic. The answer is if a bad person tells you > something is good do you believe him? > Somehow I doubt that Huleans hate living in Hule. It's all a matter of perspective. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:28:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: > > On 11/14/00 8:39 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > > > This brings me to my second point. Stefan is VERY > > simmilar to wiliam the bastard (william the > > conqueror). In france he was wiliam the bastard but in > > england he was william the conqueror. As Stefan is a > > trator in thytis and a "hero" in Karameilos. > > > Yes, I'm sure that Stefan is a "hero" to the Traladarans, just as William > the Bastard was a "hero" to the Saxon commoners of England. > > Actually I thought that comparing Stefan to William of Normandy was quite apt (as was your sarcasm :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:36:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: When did that planet explode? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, I was wondering when exactly the planet (the one that resided in the asteroid belt orbit) exploded? For some reason I was under the impression that the disaster happened in 1000AC...just before the great war. Then during the Great War one of the immortals caused a fragment of that eplosion to crash into Glantri. With recent discussions of Emerondians and Pyrithians I get the feeling that this can not be the case. The asteroid belt has to have been in existence long before the Pyrithians colonize it (which would place the explosion of that planet some time before the GRoF). Can anyone tell me if this is so, or not? John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:03:57 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Getting rid of a character non-permanently MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Oh, my vote is for killing him. But perhaps he doesn't really have to die...just appear > to have died. There should be lots of ways to trick low level PCs into thinking that > their friend has been killed. Illusions, simulcra, etc... Here is a suggestion if you > don't want to use a lot of magic. > > The PC in question is replaced by a doppleganger. The doppleganger is on the pay of the > Iron Ring, and instead of disposing of the original, it simply delivers him to his evil > "step-mother" or whoever she is. > But the Iron Ring is pretty crafty. They'll prepair for the eventuality that the PCs > will discover the ruse with the doppleganger. They kill some poor bloke and stash him > away in the doppleganger's layer. When the PCs discover the shape changer and try to > find their friend, they are led to a rotting corpse. Mystery solved. Friend dead. > > But not really. When the player is ready to come back (from RL) then he should be able > to pick up his character just where he left off. He might have issues with the other > characters however... > > "Why didn't you ever come for me? Why did you just give up hope?" > > "We thought you were dead..." > Why not simply have him fall in love and settle down? We all probably have someone we used to game with who we no longer see for just such a reason. The party know where he is, so don't tear up the countryside etc. and drift apart. Only then do you pull whatever switch or abduction you want. Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:25:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? >> I'm not saying that Stefan did that (because he didn't), but following your OWN laws doesn't automatically make you Lawful. << Yes; by Chris's standard, Stefan could declare pillaging, rapine, and murder (including assassination) done by his appointes to be legal, and he would be "Lawful". >> Thus I would conclude that based on Stefan's actions, his alignment is something like Lawful-Neutral. << I know I said I thought Lawful Neutral was apt for him earlier, but having re-read the materiels during this debate, I have to thank my worthy debating opponents in these exchanges for leading me to conclude I was wrong in that assessment. As they have compelled me to re-read the materiels to check his actions and what motivates him, I therefore have come to believe I was wrong when I said I thought he was Lawful Neutral - or any kind of Lawful. Stefan's *behavior* is the very definition of Chaotic: 1) His behavior is erratic; sometimes he's concientious in his decisions, other times he's not, and seems to make abitrary appointments without regard to merit. 2) He is an egoist - a Lawful person would have changed *his* name to reflect the country he rules before he changed the name of the *country*. A sure sign that he sees himself (Karameikos) as the primary (or "subject" - meaning that which is the "topic" of principle importance rather than that which is subject to), Traladara itself as the secondary (or "object"). 3) He puts his individual interests and "vision" ahead of society/"the many". He views it as his perogative to shape and mold entire nations in his own image. 4) If you go by what Chris says, he sees his role in history as primary - thus giving him the "right" to behave however he wants in order to achieve his personal, individual "destiny" as a "Great Man". Lawful "Great Men" achieve that as an almost accidental by-product of decisions they make based on the circumstances they confront, rather than going out to deliberately seek a "Legacy" because one sees themselves deserving of a status of "Greatness". 5) resentment towards legitimate authority (he leaves Thyatis at least partly for this reason - while under its authority, he can't "shape" and "mold" entire nations; he also desposes of the legitimate Traladaran authorities right after he arrives in Traladara), recklessness (his decisions regarding which Thyatians who go to Traladara are given positions by him are, if nothing else, reckless), irresponsibility (following those reckless appointments, he just washes his hands of the effects). 6) "He is an individualist first and last." "He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions." - He puts himself first, he makes the trade so that he can avoid anyone having authority over him while he pursues his "vision", which consists not only of challenging the traditions of Traladara but sweeping many of them away. Stefan is Chaotic Neutral. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:29:24 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: When did that planet explode? In-Reply-To: <20001115173652.3934.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>; from chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:36:52AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:36:52AM -0800, John Calvin wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering when exactly the planet (the one that resided in the asteroid belt orbit) > exploded? For some reason I was under the impression that the disaster happened in > 1000AC...just before the great war. Then during the Great War one of the immortals > caused a fragment of that eplosion to crash into Glantri. I used that explanation in my own campaign, but it's not in any of the books... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:16:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit adrian mattias wrote: > > The problem lies in the fact > that the Baronies were colonized by Thyatians around AC900 if I remember > correctly. 100 years is an awfully short time to turn Byzantinesque > Thyatians into full blown late medieval or renaissance Spanish. Even if you consider the Thyatian Empire in the Byzantine version, you should keep in mind that the different Thyatian nations are quite different from the Thyatic standard (think the Hattians!) The easier way to explain the divergence is to have the Ispans as a Kerendan tribe which remained isolatad from the mainland (one of the islands of Thanegioth could go, and IIRC someone developed this idea), but still part of the Empire, and perhaps adding an early interaction with elves (the Belcadizans), could solve the problem (and explain why the Belcadiz speak Spanish and not Elven, BTW). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:44:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: When did that planet explode? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > Hi all, > > I was wondering when exactly the planet (the one that resided in the asteroid belt orbit) > exploded? For some reason I was under the impression that the disaster happened in > 1000AC...just before the great war. Then during the Great War one of the immortals > caused a fragment of that eplosion to crash into Glantri. I used that explanation in my own campaign, but it's not in any of the books... << Yeah, that's the explination I like as well. My problem with it now stems from a discussion we had about the Emerondians being descended from the Pyrithians. Supposedly the Pyrithians are a race of pirates who live in the asteroid belt. Since the Emerondians claim to have Pyrithian ancestry, and sice the Emerondians have ben on Mystara for quite some time (several hundred years at least), then the planet could not have exploded in 1000AC. It has to have happened earlier for 1) the Pyrithians to establish themselves, and 2) Emerondian colonists to journey to Mystara and establish a culture there. Unless of course you say that this Pyrithian business is just nonesense...the fancy of some green skined wackos...or... you say that the Pyrithian mythos is actually a corrupted story about the Beagle crashing on Mystara. "Yes, our ancestors came from rocks in space. They colonized this land long ago." I tend to like this last solution the best, but that may just be me. What I would like to know is if there is canon anywhere that would support or refute this. Specifically the exact date of the destruction of the "asteroid planet". If canon sources list the destruction as 1000AC (or close to it), then I'm going to assume the the Pyrithians are just a myth. Otherwise there might be some validity to what the emerondians claim. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >and perhaps adding an early interaction >with elves (the Belcadizans), could solve the problem (and explain why >the Belcadiz speak Spanish and not Elven, BTW). But the Belcadiz dialect, while sounding completely different from other Elven dialects to us, is supposed to be very similar to other elven dialects, isn't it? I could've sworn that this was mentioned somewhere, perhaps in G:KoM or the DM's Survival Kit. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:15:47 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How did he die? Who manage to do it? vini. Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > I'm afraid to communicate you this new but.. hem... > In my campaign Bargle is already dead... > :-P ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:17:47 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the respect I have.. you'd better have a VERY good explanation, "ragazzo". Not even 2 _hundred_ of them could kill him IMNSHO. ;-) vinimagus. Evil Genius wrote: > > >> It happen about in the year 1002 AC, slayed by two displacer beasts....It's a long, long story....<< > > Sounds interesting. Please tell it, if you have the time to write it. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:24:14 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Is Jenny the Lady of the Lake? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: (snip) --> Alright, I admit this is weird: we're using everything BUT the msg body... ;-) > -- > > Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of > governement. So, Lady... is that YOU? :-P Has anyone used her in campaign? Stats? Ethos? Alignment? Ideas? (Why have you been away for a while, Lady? Course you can answer in private or not answer at all. Nice you're back.) vini magus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:39:10 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But he'd cast FINGER OF DEATH! And his Phantasmal steed would be in his help and... No MR, SD is -2 to rolls... poor Bargle. ;-) Anyway, you used a very nice part of the kingdom. I put lots of elves and a Rakasta tribe hidden somewhere around that part of the forest. vini. Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > Il Sun, 12 November 2000, Evil Genius ha scritto: > > > Sounds interesting. Please tell it, if you have the time to write it. 8-) > > Since that was a very long adventure, I will made a small summary of what is really happened. > > About in the year 1002, Bargle the Infamous, was making experiments to discover the secret of the long lives of the elves. to manage in this, he and a group of soldier of the Black Eagle Barony, went in a small elf village in the Radlebb's Forest, destroyed it and kidnapped some yang elves to accomplish his experiment. The village was the birth place of Estaish, an elf who was a friend of my adventurer's group and his girlfriend was one of the kidnapped elves. Omitting the travel to the dungeon of Bargle and the perils that we faced to save the elves, when we find Bargle, I said, he was expecting us while the two famous displacer beasts. With a lot of fortune we manage to charm one of them (the other was slayed by us). The charmed beast attacked the astonished mage and slayed him after a cruel battle.... > This is the fact :-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:31:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Since that was a very long adventure, I will made a small summary of = what is really happened. > > About in the year 1002, Bargle the Infamous, was making experiments to = discover the secret of the long lives of the elves. to manage in this, = he and a group of soldier of the Black Eagle Barony, went in a small elf = village in the Radlebb's Forest, destroyed it and kidnapped some yang = elves to accomplish his experiment. The village was the birth place of = Estaish, an elf who was a friend of my adventurer's group and his = girlfriend was one of the kidnapped elves. Omitting the travel to the = dungeon of Bargle and the perils that we faced to save the elves, when = we find Bargle, I said, he was expecting us while the two famous = displacer beasts. With a lot of fortune we manage to charm one of them = (the other was slayed by us). The charmed beast attacked the astonished = mage and slayed him after a cruel battle.... > This is the fact :-) Actually, Bargle died all the way back in the (red) Basic OD&D set. That = is the fact. ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:18:05 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > >and perhaps adding an early interaction > >with elves (the Belcadizans), could solve the problem (and explain why > >the Belcadiz speak Spanish and not Elven, BTW). > > But the Belcadiz dialect, while sounding completely different from other > Elven dialects to us, is supposed to be very similar to other elven > dialects, isn't it? Sorry, but isn't this a contradictory statement? > I could've sworn that this was mentioned somewhere, > perhaps in G:KoM or the DM's Survival Kit. Well, even if G:KoM says that Belcadizan is just Elven which sounds like Spanish, it is a fact that the Belcadizan come from "beyond the sea of Thanegioth", which, in any case, is definitely nearer to the Ispans original siege (anywhere between Thyatis and the Hinterlands), than to the "Ilsundal Migration" elves. Anyway, the solution I proposed is just what I use IMC, not the most canonical solution you can find. But if one is ready to accept that Spanish and Elven sound completely different, but are actually dialects of the same tongues, what's the point in considering a century a short time to evolve from Latin/Greek to Spanish? You should just say that Spanish sounds quite different from Byzantine Thyatian, but there are only minor differences between the two... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:46:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Jennifer Guerra wrote: > On 11/14/00 8:39 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > > > This brings me to my second point. Stefan is VERY > > simmilar to wiliam the bastard (william the > > conqueror). In france he was wiliam the bastard > but in > > england he was william the conqueror. As Stefan is > a > > trator in thytis and a "hero" in Karameilos. > > > Yes, I'm sure that Stefan is a "hero" to the > Traladarans, just as William > the Bastard was a "hero" to the Saxon commoners of > England. > Thats patially the point. Stefan is not the hero of the Traladarans but in a few hundred years, they will be Karameilan's and so he will be remembered positively. Who was king before william the conquerer? I can't remember. But the only reason I would know is because they were conquered. History is written by the victors. That doesn't make him a hero of the time but he will be remembered as a hero in time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:56:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Jennifer Guerra wrote: > On 11/14/00 9:49 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > > > The question is how does he use the power? The > master > > of hule uses it to crush more infidels, while > stefan > > would use it to make Karameilos better. > > Better for the Thyatian settlers, yes. Better for > Stefan's relatives and > cronies, yes. Better for his "New Karameikans"; > i.e., mixed-bloods who have > assimilated into the Thyatian lifestyle, probably. > That makes roughly 30% of > the population. Ask the Traladarans. > >Stefan wants a > > quality country, the master of hule believes > quality > > IS quantity > > And choosing Traladara over little Machetos isn't > quantity over quality? > > >(and for Loki this is most desirable). The > > crushed infidels definately perfer the stefan type > > ruler. > > Ask the people who lived under the Black Eagle Baron > if they feel better off > than the Huleans. Black egale baron is a baron regardless of where he is and therefore someone is opressed, it just happens that he is in Traladara. THIS is NOT Stefan, but one of those anoying political things. For the most part, Hulean > commoners are left alone unless > they break a religious rule (which most don't since > they're devout). But the freshly conquered are not so lucky. You example is not "double blind". ie the two have too many difference to compare. OF course Huleans will be happier because they are ALREADY accostomed to the culture whereas the Traladarans are not. > >I don't know how anyone cannot understand this. > > I'd much rather live in a place that says don't > kill, > > ...Like the place where the children of rebels have > "accidents" during their > relocation? > > ...Like the place where the borders of an internal > barony - a fief sworn to > the ruler - are considered closed and > off-limits...to immigrants and > emigrants alike, on pain of death? > > ...Like the place where hin and elves were either > killed on sight or sold > into slavery or given over to unspeakable fates? 1. Black Egale 2. Depends how you run your campaign > > then a place that says you can kill the > disbeliever > > You dont have to kill them, if you actively subvert > their religion by > calling it a "silly superstition," and building > cities (Kelvin) and magic > schools upon their holy places. You make the > religion appear weak and > ineffective, and so the children of the natives > ("New Karameikans") will > find your own state religion much more attractive. > I find this approch quite acceptable. You can't force people to change because "you know better" but you can try to show them and lead them. As long as they say you can't Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Solmyr wrote: > Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > > probally lawful good. Remember this though; > lawful- > > abides by the law (if he is the law it's even > easier > > to abide by it, because it is lawful to follow HIS > > laws. plus making WAR is lawful act, assassination > is > > I make it a law that murder and pillaging is legal. > Am I Lawful or > Chaotic? Lawful evil propally > Thus I would conclude that based on Stefan's > actions, his alignment is > something like Lawful-Neutral. Depends on how you play him me thinks. > Most Lawful Good people would consider places where > they were born home, > and feel some obligation towards it. > Heck, most Chaotic Evil people would consider their > birthplace home, too > (not so sure about feeling obligation, though). What if your ideas were not respected there? Stefan had a mind for change.... But thats quite personal and purely speculative. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:09:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Solmyr wrote: > Chris Furneaux wrote: > > Stefan uses his power to crush infidels (aka > Traladaran rulers). But only the rulers and rebelions. Plus they are not concidered infidels but rebelious to the conquering rulers which is quite different. It is not "change your thinking" but this is my country abide by my rules. And the rules are not believe in this god as far as I understand it. I do not think stefan can be played like that. Stefan > wants a > > quality country, the master of hule believes > quality > > IS quantity (and for Loki this is most desirable). > The > > I think you have a wrong idea about Bozdogan's goals > :) > > > crushed infidels definately perfer the stefan type > > ruler. I don't know how anyone cannot understand > this. > > You mean "crushed infidels" would prefer to be > completely ground > underfoot and excluded from all possible power (a la > Stefan) to being > reduced in power but still ruled by local, though > different, rulers (a > la Hosadus)? I do not believe capitialism is a good system for rule but I work within it. My point is you have to deal within the predominant system of government provided it is posible. Stefan is King... everything else is up for grabs. > Somehow I doubt that Huleans hate living in Hule. > It's all a matter of > perspective. I agree but that is a bad example because those that would hate it are somewhere else or DEAD. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:55:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Furneaux > Remember this though; lawful- > abides by the law (if he is the law it's even easier > to abide by it, because it is lawful to follow HIS > laws. plus making WAR is lawful act, assassination is > not. I mean you DECLARE WAR, it is like LAW) If by the law you mean the laws of a particular nation, I must respectfully disagree. A Hulean who strictly abides by the laws of Hule would be Chaotic, not Lawful, because the laws of that nation are basically the whims of the Master and his followers -- in fact, even for a Chaotic person it would be impossible to be completely sure that one is indeed following Hulean law as interpreted by his agents. However, when we say Stefan, Jaggar, or any other ruler is "Lawful" we mean that they tend to follow established traditions and precedents in the way they rule rather than simply do whatever is most expedient for the moment. In this way they gain a reputation for reliability and predictability that makes their rulership easier -- since their subjects know what to expect of them, they know exactly what to do to stay out of trouble. The same cannot be said of Chaotic rulers such as the Master. Whatever else you may say about Stefan, he is certainly predictable. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:55:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan & Machetos &tc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Solmyr > > This sort of brings up the question on what terms Thincol accepted the > deal in the first place. After all, before that, both Machetos and > Traladara were Imperial dominions. So Stefan couldn't really "trade" > Machetos to Thincol since it was already the Empire's property. So > technically the only way he could get Traladara would be to switch from > one Imperial dominion to another, i.e. from Machetos to Traladara, > without any mentions of independence (why would Thincol allow one region > to become independent in exchange for "receiving" another region that he > already owns as its liege?). It is precisely for the privilege of looting/draining Machetos without objection from its (former) lord that Thincol made that deal. Here is the sequence of events, in which both Thincol and Stefan are guilty of great cruelty towards Machetos: 1. While Thincol's loyal vassal and friend Stefan rules Machetos, Thincol can do nothing to Machetos without Stefan's consent. Stefan would obey most reasonable orders from Thincol, but an order to drain/loot the place and give all the proceeds to Thincol would not qualify as a reasonable order -- and indeed any attempt to do such a thing might antagonize Stefan and/or provoke a revolt. 2. When Stefan gives up Machetos, he takes his money with him but leaves behind his slaves (that's right, HIS slaves!), livestock, crops,and other wealth. Before appointing a new duke, Thincol takes advantage of the opportunity to sieze all of that wealth and sell it for some quick cash. Stefan had to know what Thincol was going to do -- the right to sell off the great wealth of Machetos was basically all that Stefan offered Thincol that was of any real value, and they both had to know that. The privilege of appointing a new duke was actually a loss, as he went from having a loyal vassal (Stefan) to one who thought he was being rewarded but became very resentful when he realized that he had been given a ruined dominion (Callastian) to try to eke a living from. And you will notice the hypocrisy of Stefan's opposition to slavery in the despicable way he disposed of his own slaves -- it would actually have been less reprehensible to keep them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:09:51 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units In-Reply-To: <3A12E12B.ADD87C82@libero.it> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/15/00 12:16 PM, agathokles@LIBERO.IT wrote: > The easier way to explain the divergence is to have the Ispans as a > Kerendan tribe which remained isolatad from the mainland (one of the > islands of Thanegioth could go, and IIRC someone developed this idea), > but still part of the Empire, and perhaps adding an early interaction > with elves (the Belcadizans), could solve the problem (and explain why > the Belcadiz speak Spanish and not Elven, BTW). I actually turned that idea inside out when I did my Belcadiz Mini-Gaz: I had the Belcadiz not only originate on the Savage Coast, but also to have influenced the "Spanish" feel of the area itself. Of course, there's nothing "official" about that idea, and to wrangle that, I had to come up with alien elves, but it helped explain why the Belcadiz speak Spanish and have facial hair. ;-) Hey, it's all good. :-)) Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:17:15 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That's only one reason why this "if Thincol had been a friend, he'd have just apointed someone to govern Machetos after trading for it with Stefan in exchange for Traladara" claim is such a farce and a sham, amounting to saying that Thincol should have just given Traladara to Stefan for nothing (and about on par with claims that Stefan got the short end of the stick in the exchange in how far we should take it seriously). After all, Thincol already had a governor for Machetos: Stefan. What would be in it for Thincol if the outcome of the trade was just the status quo ante in Machetos as an Imperial dominion, with a different Duke while giving Stefan Traladara? Nothing. What was in the trade of Machetos for the Traladaran lands without actually "raping" its assets? Well, I'd have thought it was the estimated 1,500,000 gp sale value that Thincol would have reaped when he sold the title for Duchy Machetos on (after all, as everybody knows, everything in Thyatis has a price...). It was just plain greed that made Thincol strip Machetos of its assets. nothing more, nothing less. > And of course Stefan knew that - Stefan "raped" Machetos in the same way Thincol did. Stefan didn't care about the welfare of "his people" in Machetos - he traded them away. This trade wasn't about them: it was about Stefan's selfish ambitions. If Stefan cared about responsibilities for the welfare of others, there never would have been such a trade to begin with. .Actually you're wrong. Stefan sold his holdings within Machetos to be able to concentrate on building his new nation. There would be no way he could manage both effectively, and Stefan realised this. In selling his assets in Machetos, Stefan knew that he had to make his "kingdom" flourish or he would be a ruined man. In essence he was "burning his bridges" to his former life. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:42:18 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >If anyone can come up with more Spanish or Portuguese sounding names for >military units, it would be much appreciated.< >Cheers< >Adrian< I can help with that! (as a portuguese speaking person) Here go some examples (with english translations in () ): Ordem do Drag�o (Order of the Dragon) Cavaleiros (Knights) Infantaria (Infantry) Arqueiros (Bowmam) Calaria Pesada (Heavy Calvary) Guerreiros do A�o Vermelho (Red Steel Warriors) And so on. Send me mail with the desired unit and I will translate it in Portuguese for you (maybe even Spanish because it�s very similar) Darkblood (or "Sangue-Negro" as they call me in the Savage Coast) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:54:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Reason for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Steve Smith > > The GAZ1 text on the subject [p. 13] reads: > "In spite of the public announcement of the Grand Duchy's autonomy and the > signing of all documents to that effect, in spite of the fact that Thyatis > sent an ambassador with Duke Stefan and recalled his tax collectors, the > common impression in the region's early years was that it was just another > duchy belonging to Thyatis." > > I'm gonna step back away from the "Mystara View" of this situation for a > moment and examine it from a "Game Designer View." IMO, this case is an > obvious attempt at a retro-fit; the designer had to fit the vaguely-described > Grand Duchy from the old Expert Set and Isle of Dread module into a dynamic, > thriving, realistic world. Making it a part of Thyatis would've made sense, > IMO; instead, for whatever reason, it was decided that Karamekois > would/should be independent. The result: the above passage. > > Unfortunately, this passage doesn't make much sense. Stefan's autonomy is > publicly announced yet somehow kept a big secret too, presumably for > "forestalling invasion by outside nations" [GAZ1, p. 13]. The very fact that > the emperor signed off on Stefan's independence under amicable terms would > probably be sufficient to make anyone think twice about invading Karameikos. > > That Stefan benefits, I do not challenge. That Thincol didn't react > indicates he either sanctioned the ruse or didn't care. Real world counterexample: Panama. Even though Panama is a member of the UN and has exchanged ambassadors with most of the nations of the world, most of the world regards Panama as an American puppet state and not a "real" nation. Why? The lack of international reaction to the American invasion of Panama for the purpose of arresting that country's leader. Had any other nations truly believed that Panama was a sovereign and independent nation, those nations would have been outraged at our blatant violation of Panamanian sovereignty. I think that the rest of the Known World originally held a similar view of Karameikos. Even though other nations knew that Karameikos was formally independent of Thyatis and had exchanged ambassadors with them, they knew that its ruler was a personal friend of the Thyatian Emperor and was unlikely to act independently of him -- so for all practical purposes Karameikos may as well have been a Thyatian province. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:18:24 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > that he DELIBERATELY named > > Karameikos a "Grand Duchy" in order to CREATE > > misconceptions - not to "correct" them. > > > > >> I think this is a silly statement. << > > Well, Stefan's apologists often claim the truth is "silly" if it isn't flattering to Stefan, but again this is simply fact. Stefan called Traladara a "Grand Duchy" for reasons clearly established in "canon": "Foremost among them was the fact that, by defining Karameikos as a duchy, Duke Stefan created the impression in surrounding nations that the duchy was beholden to, and protected by, the empire of Thyatis." > > Duke Stefan *created* the impression. > The "silly statement" is the claim that he tried to *correct* that misimpression. He did nothing of the kind - he created it. Outlandish and absurd attempts to exculpate him on this score are exactly what they are: an attempted deception that Bozdogan would be proud of. So I repeat: So what would you have defined the nation as??? A Kingdom?? Let's examine Stefans rationality on what governed his choice when choosing this title. He could have called it a Kingdom straight off the bat, but with five relatively unknown nations (as far as how they would percieve his new nation as a threat), would you seek to anger them, and strain any possible diplomatic relations with them as you set foot onto your new nations soil?? I think not. Also, consider the one diplomatic certainty he did know - Thyatis. Thyatis is a huge place, Thyatis is an empire, so you wouldn't think that they would think much of Stefan assuming the title of "King"? No so, after all iIng is only one "rank" down from Emperor. The senate would have gone mad about Stefans cheek and gall, and would have demanded that Stefans kingdom to be re-conquered to teach the upstart a lesson. Of course, Thincol would have been more than happy to bend to the will of the senate on that issue.... OK, so Kingdom is out of the question. So what about Principality? This doesn't fit either. There was no hung power in his lands, and he owed fealty to no-one, so to call it a Principality would have been purposely misleading and he didn't want to do that. This leaves Grand Duchy. A Grand Duchy is a large duchy that can be autonomous. Hmm. It was only one step up from his previous title, so the Thyatian senate wouldn't object, and the title is aslo unassuming, so it would be more acceptable to those five relative unknown (politically wise to him) nations that bordered his new lands. This would be far more acceptable. > >> Stefan is not stupid, but also has not made the best > choices. Lets get this straight. The master of Hule is > EVIL because he worships an Evil god, and imposed this > god on others. The ultimate goal, to make Loki the > most powerful god (well thats how I see it). If he > needs to kill people who don't agree along the way, so > be it. Stefan is NOT motivated like this. << > > No, Stefan is motivated by personal ambition and narcissism. He worships himself foremost (that's why he calls Traladara "Karameikos"). Traladara was a backward hick nation that was conquered some 70 years before Stefan took control. When Stefan did take the reigns of power, his vision was to make these backward lands into a great country that could hold its head up high along-side the other nations of the Known World. The name Traladara would still have conjoured up images of the backward wilderness of seventy years before, so the new nation would have needed a new name, and what better name than Karameikos? After all, this nation would be, in essence, his child which he would raise to grow strong and proud. And do you not give your child your own name????? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:54:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gaucho Prestige class attempt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Beau Yarbrough > Prestige class weapon proficiencies don't work that way, though: You have > to build assuming that some crazy player will take the most difficult path > to the class. Someone might conceivably build a 19th level Commoner and > then change to Gaucho. I think the weapon list should be left as-is. Okay, but let's look at this another way: Start by eliminating the weapons that are prerequisites for the class -- if proficiency with those weapons is a prerequisite, then it does not matter whether that class grants proficiency. Then eliminate all "Simple" Weapons -- even a Commoner could pick them up at the cost of a single feat, and most other classes would not even have to do that. If I am not mistaken, you are then left with the whip (an Exotic weapon) and a few martial weapons that are not that vital to the class concept. That is why I suggested that the whip might be the sole new weapon acquired by the class. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:54:40 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Sloppy attempt at a Inheritor Prestige Class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Anondson > The Inheritor is a real odd-ball. I wasn't sure how a prestige class (by > following recommended guidelines) could be implemented suitably. Such as > the character kit requirement that ONLY 1st-level characters will be > accepted. Or that Inheritors NEED their ability scores to be a certain > level. Both of these two requirements are supposedly "bad requirements" to > use for a prestige class but vital to the workings of the Inheritors. Well > here is my first attempt, it may be ugly! So forgive me as I'm getting used > to this prestige class thing. I have noticed that we seem to have gotten a little "prestige class happy" on this list and created prestige classes for things that really don't merit them. I think that Inheritors are an example of a character type that is not well served as a prestige class. First off, we need to work out the mechanics of gaining Legacies. Since 3E permits a limited degree of ability score improvement, I would suggest that the cost of each Legacy controlled by cinnabryl should be -2 to the affected ability score rather than -1. Throw in additional problems such as dependence on cinnabryl and the nasty things that will happen when that character leaves the Savage Coast (along with the fact that nearly every character in that region has a Legacy and the associated ability score loss after WotI), and the effective cost/value of that first Legacy is effectively zero. Anyone who wishes to acquire more Legacies must have it induced by crimson essence, a substance that is available only from the Inheritors. It is possible to gain one extra Legacy through a great service to the Inheritors or through a temporary associate member- ship, but any Legacies beyond that first additional Legacy require full membership in one of the three orders. Each additional Legacy acquired causes a temporary loss of 2d4 points from the indicated ability score, with all but two of those points being regained by the use of cinnabryl. (Note that even a temporary reduction of an ability score to zero or less will be fatal at this point.) Acquiring even one additional Legacy confers exceptional vulnerability to smokepowder (which makes it impossible for that character to become proficient with any firearms), while acquiring any additional Legacies requires full membership in an Inheritor order with all associated benefits and responsibilities. A standard post-WotI Savage Coast character begins play with one Legacy and the associated ability score loss. A character who wishes to begin play as an Inheritor must be native to or have spent a good part of his childhood in a Cursed area of the Savage Coast. He must start out with no ability score of less than 9 (to ensure that he survives the temporary ability score loss of each acquired Legacy) and must not have any levels in any classes that cause additional "Curse" losses (such as Psionicist). A character who begins play as an Inheritor does so with two initial Legacies (one native, one induced) plus one additional Legacy per three levels -- with each Legacy causing the standard loss of two points to the associated ability score. It is also possible for a character to begin play as an associate of the Inheritors, in which case he receives one extra induced Legacy and must keep the secrets of the order he received the extra Legacy from as well as observe its restrictions, but he is not required to take orders from the Order nor can he gain any additional Legacies until he fully joins the Order. However, after play starts any character may join an Inheritor Order and then gain Legacies from it regardless of other considerations, but then he takes his chances in case the temporary ability score loss for gaining a new Legacy kills him. Beyond the benefits and responsibilities that are already obvious, the skills of Craft (Redsmithing), Knowledge (Legacies), and Knowledge (Red Curse Lore) all become class skills for any Inheritor. Have I left anything out? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:00:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Gaucho Prestige class attempt In-Reply-To: <2d.396b466.2744d09b@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:54 11/16/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >Okay, but let's look at this another way: > >Start by eliminating the weapons that are prerequisites for the class -- >if proficiency with those weapons is a prerequisite, then it does not >matter whether that class grants proficiency. > >Then eliminate all "Simple" Weapons -- even a Commoner could pick >them up at the cost of a single feat, and most other classes would >not even have to do that. > >If I am not mistaken, you are then left with the whip (an Exotic weapon) >and a few martial weapons that are not that vital to the class concept. > >That is why I suggested that the whip might be the sole new weapon >acquired by the class. Pretend a Commoner joined the class. Including a full weapon listing is consistent with the other offical prestige class listings. Your way, while extremely logical, breaks the trend for no benefit that I can see. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:31:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Hin and the Immortals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Paul Benfield > From my own particular interest I'd like to know who a 3 edition hin cleric > would follow; but any info based on any rules would be great. The available information suggests that we have so far encountered no truly isolated hin/halfling cultures and thus none that are unwilling to rely to at least some extent on human Clerics. Thus, their only priest-equivalents are their Master class, which none of them join prior to 8th level or so. There are only two possibilities that I see for Hin Clerics: 1) Along the Savage Coast, the "assimilated" Halflings may have Clerics of any local Immortals. 2) If anyone ever comes up with an isolated Halfling nation, they will need to come up with some way for 1st level characters to have access to healing magic. The most likely method that I can see would be for them to convert the "Master" class from a prestige class into a normal class, waive most of the entry requirements, and permit 1st level characters to begin their careers with apprentice level in a "mundane" class as well as the stripped down "Master" class. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:31:41 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Phillip Jones > May I point out that Thincol betrayed the spirit of the deal and their > friendship first. No sooner than Stefan had boarded ship for his new, > autonomous nation, than Thincol began systematically raping Stefans > ancestoral lands, until nothing was left of value. Do you think that Stefan > would have been pleased to have seen the fate of his ancestral lands at the > hands of his so called "friend"? I think not. If Thincol had been a true > friend, he would have simply appointed a good and just governor to those > lands, and would have not abused Stefans lands so first. Oh, please! Just what was Thincol supposed to do with Machetos anyway? All that Stefan could reasonably offer Thincol was the chance to loot its wealth -- anything else that Thincol wanted from Machetos he already had. The terms of the agreement were quite clear -- Stefan got the treasury, Thincol got everything else in Machetos that could be picked up and sold elsewhere, and the poor slob that Thincol eventually gave Machetos to got a wrecked, ruined, and impoverished province. As for Stefan's slaves -- they would up wherever their new owners decided to take them. Bottom line: Good deal for Thincol, better deal for Stefan, and really lousy deal for Stefan's slaves. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:37:47 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Stefan Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Some people have stated that Stefan eradicated the Traladaran leadership in Traladara. Not true, according to Gaz 1 there are several Traladaran nobles: Lord Lev Dromilov of Dmitrov Mistess Sascia of Luln Lady Magda Marilenev Lord Vlad Lutescu of Rugalov Lord Zemiros Sulescu of Sulescu Retameron Antonic of Verge (his mother is Traladaran) And, as of 1010, Stefans own grandchildren have Traladaran ancestry, Devon Hyrkasos's mother is Traladaran. As for Ludwig, according to Gaz 1 "Ludwig pretended to be an upright, eager and very lawful follower of the Duke=85at least until he was awarded his Baronial titles and the lands that go with it." (pg 58) And it must be remembered that Ludwig is Stefan's cousin. In the real world people often don't want to believe that their relatives are capable of evil acts. And when inspectors visited Halag, they were bamboozled and led to believe everything was hunky dory. The issue of Karameikos helping out Alfheim during the Shadow Elf invasion is pretty simple. Some time ago there was a discussion on the list on how easy it would be for Thyatis to defeat the Karameikan army and conquer Karameikos. How well do you think the Karameikan army would do against the Shadow Elves? Karameikos has about 6000 troops as do the Shadow Elves, but the Shadow Elven Troops have higher BR than the Karameikan Troops. Plus, Stefan can't strip Karameikos of all the troops and leave the nation defenseless. It would take the WDL working in concert to drive them out. However, the WDL has not recognized the refugees as being the legitimate rulers of Canolbarth, although I expect the "Exiles" are heavily lobbying Karameikos and Darokin. Stefan is no saint, but he's no demon either. He is a man (a fictional man), with flaws and foibles. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:17:52 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/15/00 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > Actually, Bargle died all the way back in the (red) Basic OD&D set. That is > the fact. ;) > That possibility is even addressed in his description in Gaz 1, but I found a workaround instead. You see *that* Bargle was only his simulacra (IMC). Bargle is, after all, a fairly powerful mage--did you really think two low-level goody-goodies could take him out that easily?! ~ Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:32:28 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder if the Babelfish does stuff like that as well :) *test* http://www.babelfish.com/Languages/English/EnglishMachine.shtml It works! BTW Darkblood, if you know any websites with information on Spanish Renaissance era armies, I would be most grateful... Cheers Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Ricardo Matheus To: Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Byzantine/Spanish Units > >If anyone can come up with more Spanish or Portuguese sounding names for > >military units, it would be much appreciated.< > >Cheers< > >Adrian< > > I can help with that! (as a portuguese speaking person) > Here go some examples (with english translations in () ): > > Ordem do Drag�o (Order of the Dragon) > Cavaleiros (Knights) > Infantaria (Infantry) > Arqueiros (Bowmam) > Calaria Pesada (Heavy Calvary) > Guerreiros do A�o Vermelho (Red Steel Warriors) > > And so on. Send me mail with the desired unit and I will translate it in > Portuguese for you (maybe even Spanish because it�s very similar) > > Darkblood (or "Sangue-Negro" as they call me in the Savage Coast) > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:39:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: When did that planet explode? In-Reply-To: <20001115173652.3934.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, John Calvin wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering when exactly the planet (the one that resided in the > asteroid belt orbit) exploded? For some reason I was under the > impression that the disaster happened in 1000AC...just before the > great war. Then during the Great War one of the immortals caused a > fragment of that eplosion to crash into Glantri. This was the theory Marco Dalmonte and I used when working on the Mystara Space Project. It comes from two sources. The Gold Box Immortal Set stated that Damocles will eventually be destroyed creating two new planets, a few retrograde moons and the asteroid belt. (Presumably, The Gold Box is set in AC1000 so Damocles is still around back then). The Wrath of the Immortals adventure states that a massive asteroid hits the glantri/darokin border. We combined these two events and figured that the asteroid, being directed by Alphaks came from the Damocles explosion. > With recent discussions of Emerondians and Pyrithians I get the > feeling that this can not be the case. The asteroid belt has to have > been in existence long before the Pyrithians colonize it (which would > place the explosion of that planet some time before the GRoF). Yep. VotPA seems to be in contradiction with the Gold Box here. However, it is possible that there is more than one asteroid belt around. Personally I'd suggest that the Pyrithian Belt is actually the ring of a ring planet. My suggestion is that it is either the ring of Damocles or MMArs. Anything else would be too far away from Mystara for the Pyrithians to be able to get to that world. No sources state that either of these planets have rings, but also no sources state that they dont. Originally, I would have suggested that the ring was centered around Damocles, but now I'm more inclined to suggest MMars since it is closer to Mystara and there are no worlds between the two. (If there had been, why didnt the Pyrithians just stop there?) > Can anyone tell me if this is so, or not? Rethinking this, having Damocles explode around AC1000 doesn't really do any good. The new worlds the Damocles Explosion created wont be of any use for milenias without extensive Immortal internevntion or Magical Deus Ex Machina Phenomena. James Mishler once suggested that the world isn't destroyed at all, its civilization merely collapses. This actually helps keeping the Mystara solar system different from ours too, which is a good thing IMO. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:45:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: The Damocles Civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I wrote: "Rethinking this, having Damocles explode around AC1000 doesn't really do any good. The new worlds the Damocles Explosion created wont be of any use for milenias without extensive Immortal internevntion or Magical Deus Ex Machina Phenomena. James Mishler once suggested that the world isn't destroyed at all, its civilization merely collapses. This actually helps keeping the Mystara solar system different from ours too, which is a good thing IMO." Combining all this with John Calvins idea of Blackmoorians still being out there; perhaps the Damocles civilization was the remains of the original Blackmoor settlement there? Due to lack of equipment/wars/whatever they were never able to return to Mystara and built a fabulous civilization on their new world. The Gold Box states that the Damocles civilization is highly advanced, though it does not specify this. Another thought on the Pyrithians is that they must have been explorers who left the Beagle before it crashed. That seems like an explaination that requires less tweaking than having them as descendants of St Stephens followers returning to space with the Blackmoor civilization centuries after the crash. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:31:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001115234648.4972.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:46:48PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:46:48PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > History is written by the > victors. That doesn't make him a hero of the time but > he will be remembered as a hero in time. Ah, so you agree that Stefan is not necessarily a hero even if people keep saying he is so that people remember him that way. Perhaps Stefan should burn all the history books which reference events from before his reign and rewrite them, that could help his being remembered as a hero. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:34:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001115235637.6582.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:56:37PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:56:37PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > Black egale baron is a baron regardless of where he is > and therefore someone is opressed, it just happens > that he is in Traladara. THIS is NOT Stefan, but one > of those anoying political things. Stefan appointed Ludwig. He is baron in Halag directly because of Stefan. He is allowed to rule by Stefan. Only Stefan has the authority to remove Ludwig and he doesn't do this. How can you say that Stefan has nothing to do with the Black Eagle Baron?!?!? > For the most part, Hulean > > commoners are left alone unless > > they break a religious rule (which most don't since > > they're devout). > > But the freshly conquered are not so lucky. You > example is not "double blind". ie the two have too > many difference to compare. OF course Huleans will be > happier because they are ALREADY accostomed to the > culture whereas the Traladarans are not. Ah, so a better comparison would be to compare the Traladaran commoners with the commoners of Sind. Yes, I think you're right here, that is a more fair way of looking at it. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:37:10 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001116000953.9168.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:09:53PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:09:53PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > It is not "change > your thinking" but this is my country abide by my > rules. And the rules are not believe in this god as > far as I understand it. I do not think stefan can be > played like that. He does ask them to change their thinking. He wants the ruling Traladaran families to stop thinking that they have any power. This was their country, shouldn't he abide by their rules? Well no, because he marched in and conquered them. [Go Stefan! :) ] > > You mean "crushed infidels" would prefer to be > > completely ground > > underfoot and excluded from all possible power (a la > > Stefan) to being > > reduced in power but still ruled by local, though > > different, rulers (a > > la Hosadus)? > > I do not believe capitialism is a good system for rule > but I work within it. My point is you have to deal > within the predominant system of government provided > it is posible. Stefan is King... everything else is up > for grabs. I didn't understand that bit.... > > Somehow I doubt that Huleans hate living in Hule. > > It's all a matter of > > perspective. > > I agree but that is a bad example because those that > would hate it are somewhere else or DEAD. Like those involved in the rebellion against Stefan. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:39:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <002701c04f84$1bf9b180$13c4893e@philjones>; from mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:17:15AM -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:17:15AM -0000, Phillip Jones wrote: > > > And of course Stefan knew that - Stefan "raped" Machetos in the same way > > Thincol did. Stefan didn't care about the welfare of "his people" in > > Machetos - he traded them away. This trade wasn't about them: it was about > > Stefan's selfish ambitions. If Stefan cared about responsibilities for the > > welfare of others, there never would have been such a trade to begin with. > > Actually you're wrong. Stefan sold his holdings within Machetos to be able > to concentrate on building his new nation. Er, yes, that's what is said above. He traded them away to help build his new nation in his own image. > There would be no way he could > manage both effectively, and Stefan realised this. Manage both Machetos and Traladara? Or manage both his remaining assets and Traladara? > In selling his assets in > Machetos, Stefan knew that he had to make his "kingdom" flourish or he would > be a ruined man. In essence he was "burning his bridges" to his former life. Yup, but that's what was said above, you say it's wrong but then go on to agree with it :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:29:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shawn J. wrote: > > Actually, Bargle died all the way back in the (red) Basic OD&D set. = That is > > the fact. ;) > > > That possibility is even addressed in his description in Gaz 1, = but I > found a workaround instead. You see *that* Bargle was only his > simulacra (IMC). Bargle is, after all, a fairly powerful mage--did = you > really think two low-level goody-goodies could take him out that = easily?! Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice how = many levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead too... = Anyway, I'm really just teasing, you know. ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Mystaran Hex maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know if there is a good program somewhere for drawing those hex maps that mystara freaks are so familiar with? - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: > On 11/15/00 12:16 PM, agathokles@LIBERO.IT wrote: > > > The easier way to explain the divergence is to have the Ispans as a > > Kerendan tribe which remained isolatad from the mainland (one of the > > islands of Thanegioth could go, and IIRC someone developed this idea), > > but still part of the Empire, and perhaps adding an early interaction > > with elves (the Belcadizans), could solve the problem (and explain why > > the Belcadiz speak Spanish and not Elven, BTW). > > I actually turned that idea inside out when I did my Belcadiz Mini-Gaz: I > had the Belcadiz not only originate on the Savage Coast, but also to have > influenced the "Spanish" feel of the area itself. Of course, there's nothing > "official" about that idea, and to wrangle that, I had to come up with alien > elves, but it helped explain why the Belcadiz speak Spanish and have facial > hair. ;-) > > Hey, it's all good. :-)) > > Jenn Actually, Mystaran elves do have facial hair already. There are several bearded elves pictured in the Alfheim Gaz, particularly Mealidan Mealidil (pictured on pg 58), who is described as having a very long, "often uncombed, white beard". Nothing against your Belcadiz Min-Gaz, though. I use it in my own games. Michael. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:14:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Sarlat Thibault Subject: Re: Mystaran Hex maps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes of course there is a prog. it's called grid cartography (freeware). you can get it from my site (www.mystara.com.bi) but the good thing is to have a good set of hexes... i recently developped one along with someone else, and i can easily send i= t to you (and also make it available from my site). you can also use campaign cartographer .there are also several othezr smal= l prog but they are not making miracles... then you have another way , a hard way but who produces great maps... anyway you should take a look at my gallery of maps and so you'll see the = different results see you. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis > Actually you're wrong. Stefan sold his holdings within Machetos to be able to concentrate on building his new nation. << Actually, I'm right and you're shamelessly propagandizing again, and using a obvious double-standard to do so; decrying Thincol for doing this same thing, while lionizing Stefan for it. It would be just as accurate to say simply that "Thincol sold holdings within Machetos to be able to concentrate on building Thyatis' military" - but the story doesn't end there in either case. For the people of Machetos, the effect is similar: Machetos is stripped of wealth which is then used for projects elsewhere. > There would be no way he could > manage both effectively, and Stefan realised this. So he sold out the people of Machetos, abandoning his responsibilities (he *was* their Duke at the time - not just a bystander) so that he could go fullfill a personal ambition elsewhere, putting his interests ahead of those he was responsible for. >> In selling his assets in Machetos, Stefan knew that he had to make his "kingdom" flourish or he would be a ruined man. In essence he was "burning his bridges" to his former life. << And making "his kingdom" flourish meant ruining the lives of others, then so be it. Again, one can say the similar of Thincol's actions in Machetos "in selling his assets in Machetos*, Thincol knew that he had to make the Empire flourish and be secure, or it would be ruined. In essence, he was trading off the welfare of the people of Machetos for the welfare of the Empire as a whole." - but note the differences: Stefan is motivated by personal ambition, Thincol truly is Lawful Neutral, as he is motivated by his responsibility to the entire Empire. A "few" are made to suffer (badly) for the benifit of the many. Thincol then apoints not some rapacious overlord as the new Duke, but a concientious man - who is himself embittered because he got a "pig in a poke", but spends the next 30 years rebuilding it (he didn't appoint a Ludwig-type to rule Machetos) - the "one" (Callastian) gets screwed over so that the "few" (the people of Machetos) could be restored over time (rebuilt) for what was taken from them. Stefan, on the other hand, is responsible as the steward of the people of Machetos (he's their Duke) for their welfare - for him, *they're* "the many" - who's interests he sacrifices so that he can fullfill a personal ambition. He strips Machetos of wealth in a manner no different from that of Thincol (so if Thincol was "bad" to do it, then Stefan is doubly so, because Stefan doesn't do so fullfill a larger obligation he has, but simply to fullfill his selfish ambitions to mond and shape entire peoples into his own image). The wealth Stefan strips Machetos of is then used to finance the crushing of the Traladaran families &tc. On the one hand, Stefan's apologists point accusing fingers at Thincol for taking the properties Thincol owned (because Stefan gave/traded them to him) in Machetos and selling them off and using the money to finance a project elsewhere, decrying this as an outrageous crime. But on the other hand they look at Stefan doing the same thing, and in it claim it to be an admirable action. So, thus, we see a double standard at work. The truth, as we see, is the converse: I don't argue that Thincol didn't screw over the people of Machetos (he did - and Stefan knew he would, because, as David pointed out, Stefan knew what he was trading to Thincol when Stefan abandoned the people of Machetos and his responsibilities to them, and how Thincol was likely to use it), just as Stefan screwed them over; but their reasons for doing so *were* different - Stefan did so to fullfill his personal ambition to mold and shape a nation of people into his own image, Thincol did so to fullfill one of his obligations as the ruler of Thyatis, to insure his nation's security - not to abandon his resonsibilities. Neither of them were "good" in this action (Thincol probably could have found another means of doing so that wouldn't have caused so much suffering in Machetos. Stefan likewise could have found some other means of financing his project - heck, if he wants to be a "hero King", he could do it the same way other hero's get ! ! rich - adventure for it, simoultaniously clearing Traladara of monsters and getting money. But Stefan wanted the easy way out. And Stefan could have been less hubristic, even, trading the rule of Machetos for the rule of Traladara as a Duchy of the Empire, and not seeing it as his right to mold and shape people. Or, if he did think independence was the only way, he could have cooperated with the leading Traladaran families rather than crushing them, used his supposed gift for persuasion and his supposed charisma to convince them to contribute to the project, in exchange making them Barons and the like. But then he'd be respecting the Traladaran's traditional authorities, and that would stand in the way of re-molding them to fit his "vision", because the Traladarans would naturally continue to look to these people more - even after Stefan crushed them and stripped them of as much power as he could - and not just the Marilenev clan, the survivors continue to be seen in this way ! ! to some extent. Still more would they have been if he had cooperated with them rather than smashing them, and that just wouldn't fit within his vision of self-importance, so they had to go down, and they had to go down hard; Thyatian apointees as dominion rulers would be more pliable for Stefan, even if they were rapacious towards the Traladarans, because their authority would depend entirely upon Stefan, while the authority of the leading Traladaran families pre-dated him and thus would always be less dependent upon him - their source of ligitimacy is rooted in Traladaran tradition, not Stefan). There were alternatives to either man selling off properties in Machetos and stripping it of the proceeds, neither man took those alternatives, because neither man is "good" as such. Thincol was, of course, the more concientious ruler, and in retrospect yes, it's not surprising that Stefan sold out his friend and Thyatis as a whole - because he had already indicated his true character when he sold out the people of Machetos. And when he sold out the people of Machetos in the trade, he knew what he was giving Thincol - so his hands aren't clean on either end of the thing. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: When did that planet explode? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > I was wondering when exactly the planet (the one that resided in the > asteroid belt orbit) exploded? For some reason I was under the > impression that the disaster happened in 1000AC...just before the > great war. Then during the Great War one of the immortals caused a > fragment of that eplosion to crash into Glantri. This was the theory Marco Dalmonte and I used when working on the Mystara Space Project. It comes from two sources. The Gold Box Immortal Set stated that Damocles will eventually be destroyed creating two new planets, a few retrograde moons and the asteroid belt. (Presumably, The Gold Box is set in AC1000 so Damocles is still around back then). << That's the assumption I was working on as well, but I wasn't sure where I got it from. Thanks. >> > With recent discussions of Emerondians and Pyrithians I get the > feeling that this can not be the case. The asteroid belt has to have > been in existence long before the Pyrithians colonize it (which would > place the explosion of that planet some time before the GRoF). Yep. VotPA seems to be in contradiction with the Gold Box here. << I'm actually starting to like the idea that the story about Pyrithians is a myth used to describe the events that took place when the Beagle crashed on Mystara. >> However, it is possible that there is more than one asteroid belt around. << I thought about this as well. My first choice was going to be one of the Trojan fields, but there's no way the Pyrithians would colonize Mystara all the way from (in essence) Jupiter. So that idea is out. >> Personally I'd suggest that the Pyrithian Belt is actually the ring of a ring planet. My suggestion is that it is either the ring of Damocles or MMArs. Anything else would be too far away from Mystara for the Pyrithians to be able to get to that world. No sources state that either of these planets have rings, but also no sources state that they dont. << Oh this is interesting. I never thought about that. There is one question when you bring up rings however, and that is are they affected by skyshields? Would they be able to retain their own atmosphere? I suppose that it's not unreasonable to suggest that rings would have their own skyshield, seperate from the one of the planet they orbit. What do you think? >> Originally, I would have suggested that the ring was centered around Damocles, but now I'm more inclined to suggest MMars since it is closer to Mystara and there are no worlds between the two. (If there had been, why didnt the Pyrithians just stop there?) << Good point, but it also depends upon where exactly each planet was in its orbit when the Pyrithians made their colonization attempt. If both the Pyrithians' base, and Mystara are on the same side of the sun, while MMars is on the opposite side, then of course Mystara will be closer (and would have been where the Pyrithians would head). Of course one could argue that if these people were making colonization attempts, then they probably should know about the planets and their orbits (and be able to time their colonization corectly). The other factor would be the habitability of the intended colonizatin world. Perhaps Mystara had the best habitiat for Pyrithian life? >> Rethinking this, having Damocles explode around AC1000 doesn't really do any good. The new worlds the Damocles Explosion created wont be of any use for milenias without extensive Immortal internevntion or Magical Deus Ex Machina Phenomena. << Another good point. Although to say that they wouldn't be of much use is going a bit overboard IMO. They'd be barren wastelands, yes...but not useless. I can see MMercury becoming a haven for elementals, and other heat/cold loving/resistant creatures. Elementals could populate the place quite quickly IMO. Other life forms might come along, but at a much slower pace. It could have a really frontier feel to it. The MAsteroid Belt could have much of the same feel (but with a temperature range more suited for Mystaran life forms). I think we might find dwarves and gnomes making the journey there quite often. They could set up mining colonies, etc... MPluto and MCharon are (IMO) supposed to be really harsh and hostile places anyway. I doubt that there would be thriving civilizations on them even if they had been around for 4000 years. Anyway, you get the idea. I don't see any Magical Deus Ex Machina in these solutions (well no more than for any other part of a 'fantasy' setting). >> James Mishler once suggested that the world isn't destroyed at all, its civilization merely collapses. This actually helps keeping the Mystara solar system different from ours too, which is a good thing IMO. << Yeah, but on the other hand, many of Mystara's nations are set up as parallels of our own. Why stop that trend with the solar system? I guess that I just figure that having other planets be habitable (at least without major teraforming efforts) is different enough. Thanks for all of the good feedback to H�vard and Gordon. I really do appreciate it. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:01:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: The Damocles Civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Another thought on the Pyrithians is that they must have been explorers who left the Beagle before it crashed. That seems like an explaination that requires less tweaking than having them as descendants of St Stephens followers returning to space with the Blackmoor civilization centuries after the crash. << Ummm...consider this idea stolen...I mean borrowed ;) Actually it does make a lot of sense. "Red Alert. Red Alert. All crew members to the life pods." Some are able to escape and make it to Damoclese (or where ever), while others are not, and go down with the ship. It still requires the Pyrithians to make a space journey to Mystara, but at least it eliminates a journey in the other direction first. I still don't like the fact that the Emerondians are descended from the Pyrithians, when they could just as easily (or even more easily) be descended from the crashed Beagle crew. Well, not much I can do about that I suppose. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:53:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > --- Solmyr wrote: > > Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > > > Stefan uses his power to crush infidels (aka > > Traladaran rulers). > > But only the rulers and rebelions. Plus they are not > concidered infidels but rebelious to the conquering > rulers which is quite different. It is not "change > your thinking" but this is my country abide by my > rules. And the rules are not believe in this god as > far as I understand it. I do not think stefan can be > played like that. > Well, I don't recall the Master of Hule mass converting people of Sind and Darokin to the faith of Bozdogan. In fact, he did the same thing as Stefan - crushed their rulers and rebels and installed his own minions in their place. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:02:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: When did that planet explode? In-Reply-To: <20001116165134.12672.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, John Calvin wrote: Haavard: > Personally I'd suggest that the Pyrithian Belt is actually the ring of a > ring planet. My suggestion is that it is either the ring of Damocles or > MMArs. Anything else would be too far away from Mystara for the Pyrithians > to be able to get to that world. No sources state that either of these > planets have rings, but also no sources state that they dont. John: > Oh this is interesting. I never thought about that. There is one > question when you bring up rings however, and that is are they > affected by skyshields? Would they be able to retain their own > atmosphere? I suppose that it's not unreasonable to suggest that > rings would have their own skyshield, seperate from the one of the > planet they orbit. What do you think? Interesting questions. Do all worlds have skyshields? I though Mystara was quite unique in that respect. A skyshield containing all the rings is a pretty cool idea actually, although it would be possible that only a few large rocks within the rings have atmospheres. Not sure which one of these ideas I like best. > >> > Originally, > I would have suggested that the ring was centered around Damocles, > but now I'm more inclined to suggest MMars since it is closer to Mystara > and there are no worlds between the two. (If there had been, why didnt the > Pyrithians just stop there?) > << > > Good point, but it also depends upon where exactly each planet was in > its orbit when the Pyrithians made their colonization attempt. If > both the Pyrithians' base, and Mystara are on the same side of the > sun, while MMars is on the opposite side, then of course Mystara will > be closer (and would have been where the Pyrithians would head). Of > course one could argue that if these people were making colonization > attempts, then they probably should know about the planets and their > orbits (and be able to time their colonization corectly). The other > factor would be the habitability of the intended colonizatin world. > Perhaps Mystara had the best habitiat for Pyrithian life? Very good points. I have to work on my visualization of how the Solar System works. If you dont think it is too far away, then perhaps Damocles is best suited to be a ring world. > >> > Rethinking this, having Damocles explode around AC1000 doesn't really do > any good. The new worlds the Damocles Explosion created wont be of any use > for milenias without extensive Immortal internevntion or Magical Deus Ex > Machina Phenomena. > << > > Another good point. Although to say that they wouldn't be of much use > is going a bit overboard IMO. They'd be barren wastelands, yes...but > not useless. I can see MMercury becoming a haven for elementals, and > other heat/cold loving/resistant creatures. Elementals could populate > the place quite quickly IMO. Other life forms might come along, but > at a much slower pace. It could have a really frontier feel to it. True. I have actually done quite a bit on MMercury suggesting that it soon was settled by fire elemental creatures. I might post more on that later. > The MAsteroid Belt could have much of the same feel (but with a > temperature range more suited for Mystaran life forms). I think we > might find dwarves and gnomes making the journey there quite often. > They could set up mining colonies, etc... :) > MPluto and MCharon are (IMO) supposed to be really harsh and hostile > places anyway. I doubt that there would be thriving civilizations on > them even if they had been around for 4000 years. > > Anyway, you get the idea. I don't see any Magical Deus Ex Machina in > these solutions (well no more than for any other part of a 'fantasy' > setting). You are right. Now im uncertain to what ideas I should use. Again! > >> > James Mishler once suggested that the world isn't > destroyed at all, its civilization merely collapses. This actually helps > keeping the Mystara solar system different from ours too, which is a good > thing IMO. > << > > Yeah, but on the other hand, many of Mystara's nations are set up as > parallels of our own. Why stop that trend with the solar system? I > guess that I just figure that having other planets be habitable (at > least without major teraforming efforts) is different enough. Well, in either cause I guess it is modelled after our solar system. > Thanks for all of the good feedback to H�vard and Gordon. I really do > appreciate it. Thank you. I really enjoy talking about MSpace again. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:04:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization In-Reply-To: <20001116170111.8090.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, John Calvin wrote: > Some are able to escape and make it to Damoclese (or where ever), > while others are not, and go down with the ship. It still requires the > Pyrithians to make a space journey to Mystara, but at least it > eliminates a journey in the other direction first. I still don't like > the fact that the Emerondians are descended from the Pyrithians, when > they could just as easily (or even more easily) be descended from the > crashed Beagle crew. Well, not much I can do about that I suppose. Your theory that the Pyrithians are just a myth still works. But then we lose a civilization when we develope MSpace. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:04:11 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Rogers wrote: > > Some people have stated that Stefan eradicated the Traladaran leadership > in Traladara. Not true, according to Gaz 1 there are several Traladaran > nobles: > > Lord Lev Dromilov of Dmitrov > Probably the one with the most lands. > Mistess Sascia of Luln > An elected mayor of a town. Not an official noble or ruler. > Lady Magda Marilenev > Not in any official position of power or rulership. > Lord Vlad Lutescu of Rugalov > A VERY minor and insignificant ruler. > Lord Zemiros Sulescu of Sulescu > A nosferatu ruler of an unknown village. If Stefan could and wanted, he would have probably kicked him out too. > Retameron Antonic of Verge (his mother is Traladaran) > Making Retameron a "new Karameikan" in Stefan's image. > And, as of 1010, Stefans own grandchildren have Traladaran ancestry, > Devon Hyrkasos's mother is Traladaran. > Again making them "new Karameikans". > As for Ludwig, according to Gaz 1 "Ludwig pretended to be an upright, > eager and very lawful follower of the Duke�at least until he was > awarded his Baronial titles and the lands that go with it." (pg 58) > > And it must be remembered that Ludwig is Stefan's cousin. In the real > world people often don't want to believe that their relatives are > capable of evil acts. > And it must also be remembered that technically Ludwig became what he is because of Stefan. Gaz1 states that Ludwig became a twisted, hateful man because Stefan got all the successes and goodies. > And when inspectors visited Halag, they were bamboozled and led to > believe everything was hunky dory. > Well, they probably didn't notice the hung peasants or the orc hordes. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:05:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon McCormick wrote: > > Ah, so you agree that Stefan is not necessarily a hero even if > people keep saying he is so that people remember him > that way. Perhaps Stefan should burn all the history > books which reference events from before his reign and > rewrite them, that could help his being remembered > as a hero. > Well, what do you think is going to happen if someone writes the truth about Stefan's reign? :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:14:22 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: Dwarven Bolts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings all. These little gems were created by a fellow player, John Gunston, who graciously agreed to let me post them. Enjoy Bolts of Dwarven Ingenuity As created for Benrath Kraddashin of Everast, by his friend Dugarad Fandrok, Skilled Martial Engineer of Clan Torcrest. Dwarven Fire Bolts: A rough steel shaft, fletched as a regular heavy crossbow bolt, is filled with a slightly sticky, flammable substance not too unlike Greek Fire. The tip has a regular bolt-head on it, but with a difference: instead of it being securely attached to the shaft, it sits on the end of a fairly tight spring within the shaft itself, so that there is some motion upon impact...the tiny flint pieces attached to the outside circumference of the spring are vigorously rubbed against the roughened inside of the steel shaft, creating a small shower of sparks and igniting the goop as it jets forth, through the wax seal around the head of the bolt, gushing forward and setting aflame the target, and perhaps those close by, as well. There is also a version which uses plain ol' oil instead of the sticky goop, which has a larger splash radius, but which does not burn as long. Mechanics: Normal range, normal damage, plus 1d6 fire damage upon impact. Save vs. Breath Weapon or be on fire for two more rounds, for 1d4 damage each round. Those in a 3' radius save vs. Breath Weapon at +2 or take 1 point of damage for the round of impact, plus two rounds afterwards as the stubborn stuff burns itself out in painful little spots which are difficult to extinguish. The victim may take a full-round action to smother the flames, preventing damage on subsequent rounds (ie, they still take the damage of the round that they acted to smother, but it doesn't continue after that). The oil version of this bolt is identical except for the duration of burning (only one more round instead of two, for both main victim and those splashed), and splash radius (5' radius instead of just 3'. Oil is significantly more free-flowing than the napalm-like Greek Fire stuff that the Dwarves filled the other model with.) Dwarven Dust Bolts: A wooden-shafted bolt, of which the tip-end third is a very fine, whitish powder packed within a slim, fired-clay end, held on by a wide steel ring. It has only a point, with no flared edges to the head, leaving it like a target bolt, in shape. Upon impact, the jarring of the shaft jams a rough steel rod forward from within the bolt, which creates friction on the flint bits within the steel ring near the midpoint of the bolt. The clay head shatters against the target, releasing the fine powder, which is aided in its delivery by the minute explosion caused by the small amount of coal gas trapped within the flinty ring's diameter, just behind the packed powder. The dust can temporarily blind a target, make them sneeze, create a short-lived concealment, and reveal invisible things within the confines of the cloud. Mechanics: Normal range, bolt damage is 1d4+1 to both small and larger opponents. It creates a 10' cloud of whitish dust for the round of contact, and one round afterwards before settling and dissipating. (Wind conditions may reduce it merely to the round of impact, or less for extreme situations.) Save vs. Poison or be mostly blinded and sneezy for 1d3 rounds, being at a penalty of -4 to attack or the like (equalling a 20% penalty to those percentage skills) and being unable to cast spells or do other things that require seeing. Running could be hazardous. The settling powder reveals invisible forms, should they be within, or pass through, the cloud. It is non-addictive. Dwarven Smoke Bolts: A hollow steel shaft with many flutelike holes along its length, sealed over with wax. A regular end tips it, but the shaft is divided into two compartments, each packed with a single chemical goop which is inert by itself, but when shaken and combined (like when the bolt hits a surface) reacts somewhat violently, consuming itself and spewing out volumes of somewhat choking black smoke, which expands until the chemical burns itself up, and remains for a period of time. It is quite opaque, and does not smell very good at all. The separating layer is a thin, waxy paper which is carefully perforated by needles along the inside of the shaft, which jerk and rupture the membrane upon strong contact. The slightly exothermic reaction consumes the paper as well, so only a small rent need be made. Mechanics: Normal range, normal damage. The smoke, upon initial explosion, fills a 10' cubic area (5' radius, then) and for 1d3+1 rounds after that, continues to expand by another 10' cubic area per round - or, a 10' cube the first round, 14' cube the second round, 16' cube the third, 18' cube in the fourth, and 20' cube in the fifth possible round. (This second area-effect description is a quick-and-dirty approximation.) Note that in a windier area the smoke will shift and only last half as long, but the new smoke will always come from the source-bolt when calculating the area affected. (The 1d3+1 variability in time represents how much of the goop actually goes off. They're not perfect yet.) Those in the blast radius save vs. Poison or cough and choke and the like, for 1d4 rounds. Those otherwise in the cloud (eg, it expands to include them, or one passes through it) save vs. Poison at +2 or gasp and cough for 1d2 rounds. It provides concealment, in most situations, as it is quite blackish-green and murky. It dissipates quickly after it stops being produced, and does not leave much of a residue at all. Dwarven Grapple Bolts: A small, three-pronged claw, shaped not unlike that of an eagle waiting to grasp something, tips this standard bolt-shaft. At the fletched end, a tiny eyebolt is attached to a braided length of silk threads, so far only 50' long, give or take. The claw is articulated so that its barbed arms are pulled back until the bolt strikes some surface or object, when they spring and grab the struck thing (or creature, heaven forbid). About as strong as a decent mousetrap, but with barbed hooks, it can grab onto cloth, leather, small objects, staves, rods, wands, levers, gnomes, necks of bottles, birds...that sort of thing. The whole is quite strong, and can hold up to 60lb or so before the arms may give way, given that the structural integrity of the thing grasped is sufficient. The range is poor, for the crossbow, due to its awkward shape. Mechanics: Range is limited to half of that normal for a heavy crossbow, ie, 4"/8"/12". The last two limits are mentioned should the line be cut or removed before firing. A hit causes 1d2 damage to a living (or undead, or whatever) target, and another 1d2 if it is just pulled out without opening the little arms (which would take a full round to gingerly do). Of course, objects heavier than 50lb may be dragged across surfaces, given resistance and such. Small things can be moved with this. Armored riders on horseback will probably not. Called shots are the order of business for targeting things, for the most part, with modifiers for size. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan > Some people have stated that Stefan eradicated the Traladaran leadership in Traladara. Not true, according to Gaz 1 there are several Traladaran nobles: << None of them are Barons or nobles as such recognized by Stefan. All the Barons are Thyatians. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:06:08 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Shawn J." wrote: > > In a message dated 11/15/00 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, > scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > > > Actually, Bargle died all the way back in the (red) Basic OD&D set. That is > > the fact. ;) > > > That possibility is even addressed in his description in Gaz 1, but I > found a workaround instead. You see *that* Bargle was only his > simulacra (IMC). Bargle is, after all, a fairly powerful mage--did you > really > think two low-level goody-goodies could take him out that easily?! > ~ Shawn J. Exactly. We're talking using the same language, now. IMC he kicked the a@&#$ of my players - they were growing too confident, hohoho - who are all 9th-12th levels. He udsed all those wicked necro spells. The powerful cleric-mage Syluna said "plane shift" when realised his undead steed and troll skin. "You doe NOT have this spell! Now turn tail and flee like a real woman, not casting powerful spells!". "Humbleness makes you closer to God" - vin magus ;-) Every campaing has got to have a 3B (Big Bad Boy) and I've chosen mine. Were not for Terari and Cillidox, whe'd have already taken Karameikos easily. He is still trying, though. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:07:18 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: (Re: [MYSTARA] Bargle Death) DUMB QUESTION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dumb question: what is Gaz 1? I know the names, but not the numbers. Flame me... vini. Jacob Skytte wrote: > > Shawn J. wrote: > > > > Actually, Bargle died all the way back in the (red) Basic OD&D set. That is > > > the fact. ;) > > > > > That possibility is even addressed in his description in Gaz 1, but I > > found a workaround instead. You see *that* Bargle was only his > > simulacra (IMC). Bargle is, after all, a fairly powerful mage--did you > > really think two low-level goody-goodies could take him out that easily?! > > Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice how many levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead too... Anyway, I'm really just teasing, you know. ;) > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments >> Exactly. How is it that you manage to put things so much more succinctly than I? :-) << Me? Put things succinctly? 8-)~ >> I can certainly see where you're coming from. I guess I have a more "jaded" (though that's not really the right word) view of Paladins. I see them more as moral/holy crusaders, like the military-religious orders (the 4 Spanish orders, the Templars, Hospitaliers, etc.): righteous fighers for the cause of Good, but fighters nonetheless, who don't mind bloodying their hands on occasion, so long as the cause is just. << Well, I don't see them as not fighting and killing, but I don't see D&D "Epic Heroic Fantasy" Paladins as behaving like the Templars; they're more of the "chivalric ideal" type of figure than the chivalric reality I think. I mean, their is something to be said for prefering fantasy to reality, especially in a fantasy RPG. Paladins would have to be "revised" significantly to reflect the behavior of Templars. >> I think maybe it's time to step back and attempt to examine the paradoxes in my view.<< ok. >> I assume you're asking about Traladaran pilgrims, and not Spanish pilgrims (though I'd be happy to answer either). << Yep. >> Due to the nature of the Traladaran faith (based on real political figures of the distant past), holy sites can be places of "wordly" importance, rather than just sites of legendary visions, etc. (though those are probably honored as well). << Ok, sounds good. >> I think that the Callarii are more supportive of Stefan on the surface (i.e., joining the elite guard, trading with Thyatian settlers at Rifflian) since it suits their interests to not be displaced from their homeland (as, no doubt, Stefan would do at the slighest whiff of insurrection). << That sounds like a reasonable assessment. >> bring a homicidal cousin to town, etc.). << Yes, but if we're to believe his sycophantic apologists, that's "not Stefan's fault". >> But it's not too surprising that the Callarii don't swing too hard toward either side - all in all, both sides are just humans. << Also true, I guess. >> If, as in my campaign, they were coerced into an alliance long ago (an alliance maintained as much by power-hungry elven counts as by the threat of military force from the capital), then there is a deep-seated resentment of Thyatians among the Vyalia, << Well, if that were the case, though, then they wouldn't be letting Thyatians (and, according to DotE, *only* Thyatians) "in on the deal", ceremonially adopting them and theirby creating the Order of Foresters. After all, the Thyatians, had they foisted the alliance on the elves, would never have known that such a thing is even possible (it's not done elsewhere in the Known World - the Shiye don't create Alphatian Foresters), it would just be a situation similar to other elves inhabiting various human-dominated lands. So, to me, along with some of the other references in DotE, this indicates a higher degree of willing cooperation than found elsewhere, not a compulsory situation ("elves of the western forests" having participated in the "Struggle for Freedom". Did you know more Vyalia elves live outside Vyalia than in the County, or even including all those who live in Karameikos as well? There are 4,000 elves in the City of Kerendas alone; an additional 4,000 in Port Lucinius.! ! Who knows how many live in the Dominions themselves, since percentage population breakdowns are only given for some of the cities, not for the dominions as a whole, unfortunately). I just don't see the Vyalians doing the Thyatians any special favors (sponsoring an Order of Foresters that fights alongside the rest of the Thyatians against its enemies) if they were forcably absorbed. >> Now, you can have the County elves be loyalists and still have Vyalian support of the Traladaran cause, from those on the Karameikan side of the border, mostly for the same reasons as above. These elves would be leery of Stefan's rule because perhaps they were dissidents who left Thyatis after disagreeing with the annexation of Vyalia centuries ago. << That's possible. I have always figured that the Vyalia elves didn't worry much about human borders in the area (especially recent & ephemeral ones). After all, on both sides of the "frontier line" they remain Vyalia elves, having not split into some other Clan (or joined the Callarii). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:28:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- H�vard wrote: > I wrote: > > "Rethinking this, having Damocles explode around > AC1000 doesn't really do > any good. The new worlds the Damocles Explosion > created wont be of any use > for milenias without extensive Immortal > internevntion or Magical Deus Ex > Machina Phenomena. James Mishler once suggested that > the world isn't > destroyed at all, its civilization merely collapses. > This actually helps > keeping the Mystara solar system different from ours > too, which is a good > thing IMO." > > Combining all this with John Calvins idea of > Blackmoorians still being out > there; perhaps the Damocles civilization was the > remains of the original > Blackmoor settlement there? Due to lack of > equipment/wars/whatever they > were never able to return to Mystara and built a > fabulous civilization on > their new world. The Gold Box states that the > Damocles civilization is > highly advanced, though it does not specify this. In a previous mail I sergested that the reason the Pyrithians were stuck in space is that fusion is dangerous near Mystara and if they were reliant on it they may have settled on damocles, with other exploring members of blackmoor unable to return because of their technology. Perhaps more magic gets drawn to damocles over time (Mystara influence?) and that caused all their fusion reactors to malfunction at about the same time, obliterating the planet. What do you think? > Another thought on the Pyrithians is that they must > have been explorers > who left the Beagle before it crashed. That seems > like an explaination > that requires less tweaking than having them as > descendants of St Stephens > followers returning to space with the Blackmoor > civilization centuries > after the crash. > > H�vard > > Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) > http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc > > "God created man in his image, and then man returned > the > favour." -Voltaire > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:33:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: What's a Skyshield for? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> John: > Oh this is interesting. I never thought about that. There is one > question when you bring up rings however, and that is are they > affected by skyshields? Would they be able to retain their own > atmosphere? I suppose that it's not unreasonable to suggest that > rings would have their own skyshield, seperate from the one of the > planet they orbit. What do you think? Interesting questions. Do all worlds have skyshields? I though Mystara was quite unique in that respect. A skyshield containing all the rings is a pretty cool idea actually, although it would be possible that only a few large rocks within the rings have atmospheres. Not sure which one of these ideas I like best. << Maybe I'm confused as to what a skyshield is for. I always got the impression that the skyshield was needed in order to retain an atmosphere. If this is the case, then won't other habitable worlds need one as well. Or...did Mystara need a skyshield because it was hollow? I seem to recal reading that somewhere, but can't remember where. Anyway that explination doesn't make any sense to me because Mystara already has World Shield ore which provides the planet with enough gravity to keep its occupants from floating away (why wouldn't it work on atmosphere as well?). John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:43:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > Some are able to escape and make it to Damoclese (or where ever), > while others are not, and go down with the ship. It still requires the > Pyrithians to make a space journey to Mystara, but at least it > eliminates a journey in the other direction first. I still don't like > the fact that the Emerondians are descended from the Pyrithians, when > they could just as easily (or even more easily) be descended from the > crashed Beagle crew. Well, not much I can do about that I suppose. Your theory that the Pyrithians are just a myth still works. But then we lose a civilization when we develope MSpace. << Actually I'm thinking about using both theories. That the Pyrithians are descended from Beagle crewmwmbers who escaped before the crash is just too good an opportunity to pass up. I don't think that I'll have them colonize Mystara however, because IMO it just raises too many problems. OTOH, if the Damocletians are descendents of the Beagle (and they are supposed to have had a highly technological society), then perhaps this gives us an explination as to why they would not send expiditions/colonization efforts to Mystara. Perhaps they were still following the "Prime Directive" laid out by the Federation. If this is the case they may have been at odds with Blackmoor when and if that nation reached space. Perhaps the Damocletians even caused the GRoF. As to how they blew themselves up...well your guess is as good a mine. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:48:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A14219B.16C2F9AC@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:04 PM 11/16/00 +0200, you wrote: > >And it must also be remembered that technically Ludwig became what he is >because of Stefan. Gaz1 states that Ludwig became a twisted, hateful man >because Stefan got all the successes and goodies. You aren't seriously putting forth this argument as Stefan's fault? "I'm only evil because mom liked you better!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:12:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Theisen wrote: > > You aren't seriously putting forth this argument as Stefan's fault? "I'm > only evil because mom liked you better!" > Well, it was just a small note. It could be argued though that Ludwig became evil because Stefan always took all the toys :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:59:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A143FC1.5C47887@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:12 PM 11/16/00 +0200, you wrote: >Andrew Theisen wrote: >> >> You aren't seriously putting forth this argument as Stefan's fault? "I'm >> only evil because mom liked you better!" >> >Well, it was just a small note. It could be argued though that Ludwig >became evil because Stefan always took all the toys :) You could also argue that it was watching too much violence on the Crystal Ball that made him evil, or listening to the "entropic" lyrics of certain Thyatian bardic groups that made him evil. Hopefully, the lawyers of Mystara don't suffer from the "blame anyone but the perpetrator of the crime" syndrome modern-day American lawyers possess... *shudder* Although I could see this sort of argument in a Glantrian court of law. ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:07:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Gordon McCormick wrote: > On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:46:48PM -0800, Chris > Furneaux wrote: > > > > History is written by the > > victors. That doesn't make him a hero of the time > but > > he will be remembered as a hero in time. > > Ah, so you agree that Stefan is not necessarily a > hero even if > people keep saying he is so that people remember him > that way. Perhaps Stefan should burn all the history > books which reference events from before his reign > and > rewrite them, that could help his being remembered > as a hero. > I didn't say he was a hero, that is subjective. But if all continues to go to plan he will by a hero to history. I don't think he needs to rewrite anything. Heros of the past are always less then heros of the recent past, because the later has more effect and cause to be remembered. Hero's of the past become legends when heros of the now are history. Still your welcome to make him a barsted IYC but in mine he's a nice guy. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> But if all continues to go to plan he will by a hero to history. I don't think he needs to rewrite anything. << If all goes according to plan, Hosadus will go down in history as a hero too, for the same reasons. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:23:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Byzantine/Spanish Units MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: > > > The easier way to explain the divergence is to have the Ispans as a > > Kerendan tribe which remained isolatad from the mainland > > I actually turned that idea inside out when I did my Belcadiz Mini-Gaz: I > had the Belcadiz not only originate on the Savage Coast, but also to have > influenced the "Spanish" feel of the area itself. Actually, the idea works equally well. IIRC, there's even a "Casanegra" somewhere in the SC, which can work for don Fernando's original land. Now that I'm thinking about it a bit more, it strikes me that the Ispans left Thyatis around 900 AC. Now, if Stefan Karameikos III was the third Duke of his family as the number seems to imply, his grandfather could have become the Duke of Machetos more or less around 900 AC or some years later. Perhaps the previous ruling family of Machetos was the Narvaez family, and Stefan took inspiration from the Narvaez who guided the Ispans to the SC when he decided to "colonize" Traladara. So, perhaps the Ispans originally came from Machetos (which is near enough to Kerendas). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:09:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: (Re: [MYSTARA] Bargle Death) DUMB QUESTION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > > Dumb question: what is Gaz 1? I know the names, but not the numbers. > Flame me... Quite obviuosly, it is the Grand Duchy of Karameikof Gazeteer :) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:12:14 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Solmyr wrote: > > > Lord Vlad Lutescu of Rugalov > > > A VERY minor and insignificant ruler. Also, Stefan (as always) plays one ethnic group against the other, by putting a Traladaran ruler near the Thyatian border (and a Traladaran unit, too). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:14:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Evil Genius wrote: > >> I'm not saying that Stefan did that (because he > didn't), but following your OWN laws doesn't > automatically make you Lawful. << > > Yes; by Chris's standard, Stefan could declare > pillaging, rapine, and murder (including > assassination) done by his appointes to be legal, > and he would be "Lawful". Actually it depends on how you define law. Natural Law is based on the law preventing bad things being done to other people. like Killing. everyone agrees death is concidered BAD (I hope). But it is this definition of bad that is still subjective. If AD&D used this for Lawful to distinguish people who concider people who prefer to obey Natural law when posible (most people would kill in self defence I think) there are some problems. Now I said war is lawful, but by this definition anyone who starts a war is not lawful, and I do not believe this to be true. Belief is a strong aspect. I think a lawful person could still live in Hule, but it tends towards chaotics because it is much easier to be chaotic in hule then the rest of the world. What if: Lawful = puplic order? chaotic = self interest? Good = prefers all to be well off, nice people generally. Evil = he and his cronies get should their way, regardless of how nice it is. suffering is fine... Stefan "believes" that all should be better off, and that would be best under his rule. I don't dispute some bad, but it is based on belief in good and the puplic. Should he see real suffering of the people he would change but gennerally my understanding is just unhappiness because they are not in control. Come on this is a fantasy medieval society, Peasants don't know anything else so how can they complain. Yes thier coustoms might be ignored but so are they. If they are protected from harm that is far more important then by whom. I would argue that the traldarians were conquered and obviously cannot protect themselves in a pre-modern world and so are being draged kicking and screaming into the pre-modern age. THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY ARE UNLEARNED! Stefans alignment is based on how you play him and your interpretation of what constitutes good, evil, lawful, and chaotic. In my campaign he is Lawful, and if I played AD&D good too. > > Stefan's *behavior* is the very definition of > Chaotic: > > 1) His behavior is erratic; sometimes he's > concientious in his decisions, other times he's not, > and seems to make abitrary appointments without > regard to merit. I doubt anything he does is abitrary but I do think he takes a lot of risks, A neutral trait. (I.e. doesn't really care.) Chaotic is causing strife. stefan likes order (his order(I thought I beat someone else to it)) > 2) He is an egoist - a Lawful person would have > changed *his* name to reflect the country he rules > before he changed the name of the *country*. A sure > sign that he sees himself (Karameikos) as the > primary (or "subject" - meaning that which is the > "topic" of principle importance rather than that > which is subject to), Traladara itself as the > secondary (or "object"). I would have done the same and I concider myself lawful. He believes he is doing good. Ego is not an element of law and chaos. Besides it's just a name not a god or something. > 3) He puts his individual interests and "vision" > ahead of society/"the many". He views it as his > perogative to shape and mold entire nations in his > own image. His vision is the many. "God created man in his own image" and therefore is god chaotic (it's possible)? Or does he just think it makes the place better bringing (his) order to it, I think the later is the case and to me that sounds lawful. > 4) If you go by what Chris says, he sees his role in > history as primary - thus giving him the "right" to > behave however he wants in order to achieve his > personal, individual "destiny" as a "Great Man". > Lawful "Great Men" achieve that as an almost > accidental by-product of decisions they make based > on the circumstances they confront, rather than > going out to deliberately seek a "Legacy" because > one sees themselves deserving of a status of > "Greatness". it's argued stefan gets things by luck and then you say "Lawful "Great Men" achieve that as an almost accidental by-product of decisions they make based on the circumstances they confront" That seems fairly similar to me. Lucky decitions or lawful decisions (or both)? Was it a Lawful decision to bring (his) order to traldara, depends on how you see it. I think stefan could have believe so, but your welcome to think otherwise. > 5) resentment towards legitimate authority (he > leaves Thyatis at least partly for this reason - > while under its authority, he can't "shape" and > "mold" entire nations; he also desposes of the > legitimate Traladaran authorities right after he > arrives in Traladara), recklessness (his decisions > regarding which Thyatians who go to Traladara are > given positions by him are, if nothing else, > reckless), irresponsibility (following those > reckless appointments, he just washes his hands of > the effects). A lot depends on your definition of legitimate. I don't think he resents legitimate authority, but resents the "ignorance" he sees in thytis, and seeks to "teach" others a better way. Why when he got to Taraldara did he ban slavery then? In thytis it is fine, but he didn't like that, and could not change that. He left his Slaves in thytis (protected by imperial law), and they were sold for cheap (how many of they bought their freedom?) But that was thytainian society who he wanted to escape, which becomes much more difficult when you have to take your slaves in tow. Why he appointed ludwig has been explained by someone else, and the rest of his cronies because the Traladaran authorities whould not suport him, they would rather have the power. That does not make them better then stefan or legitimate, but thats not to say they couldn't be either. But you never get the perfect person for the job. And this is Medieval society, with political strugles in the nobility, NOT a democracy, the people never get the choice. > 6) "He is an individualist first and last." "He > avoids authority, resents restrictions, and > challenges traditions." - He puts himself first, he > makes the trade so that he can avoid anyone having > authority over him while he pursues his "vision", > which consists not only of challenging the > traditions of Traladara but sweeping many of them > away. He is authority, imposes restrictions, create traditions. Puts what he thinks is right first, and is frustrated by people who do not have "vision", and ignores the traditions of Traladara because traditions are personal choice. You do not have to learn then to be a good ruler, and do what is best because traditions are not always smart things to to (want to walk across hot coals anyone? The don't hurt..) > Stefan is Chaotic Neutral. If thats how you play him. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:36:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > He does ask them to change their thinking. He wants > the ruling Traladaran families to stop thinking that > they have any power. They don't have any power. > This was their country, > shouldn't > he abide by their rules? Well no, because he marched > in > and conquered them. [Go Stefan! :) ] Now you get it. (were their rules worth abiding be, I don't know) And it was already under thytainian control anyway. > > I do not believe capitialism is a good system for > rule > > but I work within it. My point is you have to deal > > within the predominant system of government > provided > > it is posible. Stefan is King... everything else > is up > > for grabs. capitialism is a bad system. It does not premote good. It gives the posibility for good, but also bad. It is not perfect, but I do not have the answer. Even if I did I would have to work within it to make it better because of the problems of working against a system. (which usually does little good.) Change for the better from the inside is usually more effective. > those > that > > would hate it are somewhere else or DEAD. > > Like those involved in the rebellion against > Stefan. Why did they rebel, they didn't give him a chance to my understanding. Besides I suspect it was probally the nobles leading the people and giving false images of stefan more then the peasants. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:01:10 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/00 7:17:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice how many > levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead too... Anyway, I'm > really just teasing, you know. ;) > Aha, you took the bait--now I can tell what *really* happened to her! Only moments away from unconsciousness and death, Aleena managed to sip a healing potion. Sadly though, it was not powerful enough to fully heal her grievous wound, so she lost consciousness. The hero of the Basic set's solo adventure then carries her back to town (nearby) and takes her "corpse" to the local clerics. They discover she's still alive and heal her wounds immediately. She then goes on to appear in Gaz 1. Anyone else have "workaround" explanations for other contradictions in canon? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:11:31 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Stefan appointed Ludwig. He is baron in Halag > directly because of Stefan. He is allowed to > rule by Stefan. Only Stefan has the authority to > remove Ludwig and he doesn't do this. How can > you say that Stefan has nothing to do with the > Black Eagle Baron?!?!? Stefan did not know of Ludwigs true intentions until he was appointed and stefan is lawful and it would then be difficult to remove him (which he would do, see the compainion set) > Ah, so a better comparison would be to compare > the Traladaran commoners with the commoners of > Sind. Yes, I think you're right here, that is > a more fair way of looking at it. Yes. Except Traladaran commoners get a "nice" ruler, who isn't out to get all he can out of them for the gain of Loki, but one that wants to show them a better way for their benifit. (Loki wants power, Stefan wants to create a good and just country, and Traladaran rulers are not nececarally good or just.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:15:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: <5c.366a69e.2745c136@cs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 18:01 11/16/2000 EST, Shawn J. wrote: > Aha, you took the bait--now I can tell what *really* happened to her! >Only moments away from unconsciousness and death, Aleena managed >to sip a healing potion. Sadly though, it was not powerful enough to fully >heal her grievous wound, so she lost consciousness. The hero of the Basic >set's solo adventure then carries her back to town (nearby) and takes her >"corpse" to the local clerics. They discover she's still alive and heal her >wounds immediately. She then goes on to appear in Gaz 1. > Anyone else have "workaround" explanations for other contradictions >in canon? They're all dopplegangers. All of them. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:40:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what >> Stefan "believes" that all should be better off, and that would be best under his rule. << No, Stefan "believes" that *he* will be better off if certain people are under his rule (the Traladarans) instead of certain other people (the people of Machetos). That's what drives his decision: what's best for Stefan. And that's one of the reasons he's chaotic. >> Stefans alignment is based on how you play him << Stefan's alignment is based on "how he's played", yes. And based upon how "canon" "played" him, his actions are Chaotic and Neutral. >> I doubt anything he does is abitrary << His appointments to positions of responsibility in Karameikos were largely arbitrary - that is why so many didn't work out. Nothing you have said points to him behaving otherwise. > 2) He is an egoist >> Ego is not an element of law and chaos. << I didn't say "Ego", I said "egoist" - it's not the same. He's a narcissistic egoist who puts himself first. That is a Chaotic trait. >> His vision is the many. << Re-molded in his image. Himself primary. >> "God created man in his own image" << So you're saying that Stefan sees himself as Godlike, with the power and authority of a God. That's pretty Chaotic, narcissistic, and borderline psychotic (not borderline, actually: taking your example, he's a Megalomaniac with Delusions of Grandoure). >> Lucky decitions or lawful decisions << "decisions" had nothing to do with his luck, however. Unless you're now claiming that he made the decision resulting in, for example, the destruction of Alfheim and the sinking of Alphatia. . . >> A lot depends on your definition of legitimate. I don't think he resents legitimate authority, but resents the "ignorance" he sees in thytis, << Prove that this is the opinion he had of Thyatis. Otherwise, that's just your opinion, having nothing to do with Stefan - just an example of your polemical sycophancy on behalf of Stefan, rather than reflecting any views of his. >> and seeks to "teach" others a better way. Why when he got to Taraldara did he ban slavery then? << He "banned" Citizenship, too. Because in Stefan's mind, everyone is effectively *his* slave (no one else can own someone in Karameikos, because Stefan "owns" them all); it's his perogative, and his alone, in his mind to shape and mold people (the nation of Traladara and the Traladarans) according to his whims. He doesn't need slavery, because he sees *everyone* under his authority as clay to be molded by his hands alone. That's why Stefan also "banned" institutions that might limit his power (no Senate in Karameikos either, and no Citizens who might vote for one. Thus no curbs on Stefan's totalitarian regime). >> He left his Slaves in thytis << No, he gave his slaves to Thincol, who sold them as was his right. If Stefan cared about the welfare of the slaves he owned and wanted to see them freed, all he had to do was free them himself (the owner of slaves can free them whenever he wants). Stefan didn't do that, because there wasn't anything in it for him. So much for Stefan's "principled" opposition to slavery. >> which becomes much more difficult when you have to take your slaves in tow. << He could have "taken them in tow" and freed them in Traladara, if he cared. >> Why he appointed ludwig has been explained by someone else << Right: he put the interests of "the few" (him and his relative) ahead of "the many" in that instance, too. He didn't have to give Ludwig a free hand in Halag. But he didn't care what happened to the people of Traladara when he made his appointments. >> and the rest of his cronies because the Traladaran authorities whould not suport him, they would rather have the power. << Pretty obvious why they would not support him, though they weren't restless under the Thyatian Empire that you think is so terrible. Very obvious - once Stefan arrived in town with his anouncement of his notions of shaping and molding the Traladarans in his own image, they had every reason to revolt against such temerity. >> But you never get the perfect person for the job. << And Stefan certainly isn't anywhere near that, I agree. >> NOT a democracy, the people never get the choice. << Right: that's one of the aspects of Thyatis that Stefan made *SURE* to leave behind. And we can see that if their is any aspect of Thyatis that Stefan didn't like, it was it's republican aspects, because such institutions would stand in the way of what he craved most: absolute power to shape people in accordance with his, and only his, personal and individual desires. He couldn't have people with rights that he would have to respect. >> He is authority, imposes restrictions, create traditions. << He destroys traditions, destroys any competing authority, imposes restrictions on others but avoids any on himself. His "authority, imposed restrictions, and created traditions" (or, rather, "so-called created traditions") are no different from those of the Drow. >> Puts what he thinks is right first, << Which is himself, not people as a whole. If it was the welfare of others, he'd have never abandoned Machetos, and he'd have taken greater care in who he appointed in Traladara, to insure the people wouldn't have been treated rapaciously. But he didn't care about that, his sole real concern was his project of molding and shaping them, not whether they were treated well or not. >> and is frustrated by people who do not have "vision" << Inprecise: he is frustrated by people who do not share *his* "vision". Anyone who doesn't is to be crushed. No competing "visions" are permitted to exist. >> ignores the traditions of Traladara because traditions are personal choice. << He doesn't just "ignore" them, he works actively to undermine them so that he can replace them with his so-called "vision". Again, he is what counts, the customs and practices of others are to be disposed of if they stand in his way. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:47:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > So what would you have defined the nation as??? A > Kingdom?? Let's examine > Stefans rationality on what governed his choice when > choosing this title. > This leaves Grand Duchy. A Grand Duchy is a large > duchy that can be > autonomous. > Traladara was a backward hick nation that was > conquered some 70 years before > Stefan took control. When Stefan did take the reigns > of power, his vision > was to make these backward lands into a great > country that could hold its > head up high along-side the other nations of the > Known World. And do you > not give your child your own name????? It's so nice when people understand.... :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:50:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> Stefan did not know of Ludwigs true intentions until he was appointed and stefan is lawful and it would then be difficult to remove him (which he would do, see the compainion set) << Stefan did not remove Ludwig. The Hin did. The "companion set" did not have Stefan removing Ludwig: what you point to is a rebellion-scenario, wherin Stefan lets Ludwig get so far out of hand that he tries to take over all of Traladara. >> Yes. Except Traladaran commoners get a "nice" ruler, who isn't out to get all he can out of them << When did that happen? When the Traladarans revolted and overthrew Stefan's regime? Because Stefan certainly *IS* out to get all he can out of them. >> Stefan wants to create a good and just country << False. Stefan wants to create a country in his image. The regime he creates to do so can hardly be called "good and just" - the previous Thyatian protectorate was more just: it didn't despoil the Traladarans of their wealth and appoint ruthless cousins over them and then leave them their. Stefan's regime is haphazard at best, a far cry from justice. > He does ask them to change their thinking. He wants > the ruling Traladaran families to stop thinking that > they have any power. >> They don't have any power. << A true statement, but it leaves out *why* they don't have any power. They don't because Stefan crushed them - not just the rebellous Marilenevs, but all of them, and disposessed them of power so he could replace them with his cronies; many of which were "ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them. Worst among them was Duke Stefan's own cousin" - if you think this regime resembles "justice" and "goodness", then you probably think the Abyss does. Your comments about capitalism indicate that you have sympathy for "Year Zero" type projects (tearing down a society and its people and then rebuilding it in accordance with some vision, and admiring men who compare real people to some theory, and find the people wanting, and so force them to fit the theory that is their "vision"), though, so I guess I can see why you think Stefan is a good man. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:07:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Inheritors for 3e? In-Reply-To: <20001116060425.E514F81ED@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> The Inheritor is a real odd-ball. I wasn't sure how a prestige class (by >> following recommended guidelines) could be implemented suitably. Such as >> the character kit requirement that ONLY 1st-level characters will be >> accepted. Or that Inheritors NEED their ability scores to be a certain >> level. Both of these two requirements are supposedly "bad requirements" to >> use for a prestige class but vital to the workings of the Inheritors. Well >> here is my first attempt, it may be ugly! So forgive me as I'm getting used >> to this prestige class thing. > > I have noticed that we seem to have gotten a little "prestige class happy" > on this list and created prestige classes for things that really don't merit > them. I think that Inheritors are an example of a character type that is > not well served as a prestige class. I hope being "prestige class happy" isn't a bad thing. ;) I concede that the attempt at the Gaucho that I offered, if you follow Monte Cook's guidelines on making a Prestige Class that prestige classes are the best used for defined groups. That prestige classes shouldn't be used to just create another class but to define special groups that have abilities unique to the group. Possibly I should have called it Legendary Gaucho, or some such narrowing and elevating of the group. But with the Inheritor, I approached this with the recommendation that prestige classes are best used to make special groups different. With what I posted about the Inheritor, it was mostly to bounce an idea off this mailing list on doing an Inheritor. > First off, we need to work out the mechanics of gaining Legacies. I intentionally did not work out the game mechanics of the Legacies because I knew that this could unleash the hornets and buzzsaws. Of course I did approach the concept of the Legacies as a net bonus to an Inheritor. Maybe Legacies shouldn't be viewed as a net bonus but as a wash, in which case a prestige class for the Inheritor loses most of the reason I tried to do it. > It is also possible for a character to begin play as an associate of the > Inheritors, in which case he receives one extra induced Legacy and must keep > the secrets of the order he received the extra Legacy from as well as observe > its restrictions, but he is not required to take orders from the Order nor can > he gain any additional Legacies until he fully joins the Order. However, after > play starts any character may join an Inheritor Order and then gain Legacies > from it regardless of other considerations, but then he takes his chances in > case the temporary ability score loss for gaining a new Legacy kills him. These were aspects that I purposely ignored because I wasn't sure how something could be implemented for the Inheritor associates. Maybe a Feat could be offered. Heck, maybe everything about Inheritors could be a simple collection of Feats which escalate in requirements. For example, Inheritor Associate, Inheritor Initiate, Inheritor 2nd Rank, Inheritor 3rd Rank... etc. Just a suggestion. > Beyond the benefits and responsibilities that are already obvious, > the skills of Craft (Redsmithing), Knowledge (Legacies), and > Knowledge (Red Curse Lore) all become class skills for any > Inheritor. > > Have I left anything out? Hmm, I can't think of anything... Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:45:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan Comparison A couple of characters Stefan reminds me of, in addition to the Master of Hule (with his "vision"): The Symbul, the bitch-Queen of Aglarond, and her "vision" for re-molding the region in accordance with her whims (See the "Seven Sisters" accessory). She's Chaotic Neutral. But I have to say that Stefan's machinations also remind me of Syl-Pasha Ralan el-Pesharkal, and his "vision" to restore greatness to Claimishan and mold it in according to his vision (see the "Empires of the Shining Sea" accessory). Ralan el-Pesharkal also resorts to cronyism and nepotism in his apointments, just like Stefan. He's Neutral Evil. Some might say that Stefan reminds them more of that cutie, Alustriel; but Alustriel's Kingdom is by invitation of the ruled (Stefan's isn't), and she works in cooperation with the traditional authorities of each part of her Kingdom (rather than crushing them and replacing them with her own minions, cronies, and degenerate relatives). Alustriel is listed as Chaotic even so. In Mystara, Stefan also reminds me of "Baron" Norlan of Qeodhar, who also schemes and wishes to make Qeodhar a great and respected nation, having a "vision" for it as a centerpiece and focal point of power. Stefan's attitudes, motivations, and behavior mimics those of these people (as well of the Master of Hule and his benign vision for a better Hule and a better Sind). Therefore, his character and nature (alignment) cannot be far different. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:49:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think you miss the role of nobility in medieval times. It it not look after your people, but rule your people. Stefan is UNABLE to rule his way in thytis so he goes elsewhere. Nobles often see themselves as better. Not everyone is equil. He does not have responsibilities to the people, they manage fine without him, but he has responsibilities to his leige. He trades these for his duchy and it's wealth, not what it's people own, but family wealth built up over time. A new duke might be dissappointed when he finds this passed down wealth is not there and there is no buffer tresuary to use to implement change etc. This does not mean the people are any worse off. Taking citezens money would be illegal, but taking ducal wealth, possesions, and slaves and selling them hurts no-one inparticular. In fact I see no reason when it is sold the people of Machetos cannot get a good deal putting more wealth in the "peoples" hands, and less in the nobles. Of course a new ruler will be unhappy. > For the people of Machetos, the effect is similar: > Machetos is stripped of wealth which is then used > for projects elsewhere. > So he sold out the people of Machetos, abandoning > his responsibilities (he *was* their Duke at the > time - not just a bystander) so that he could go > fullfill a personal ambition elsewhere, putting his > interests ahead of those he was responsible for. > And making "his kingdom" flourish meant ruining the > lives of others Whose lives? a couple of tradarian rulers. big deal. Traldar has benifited I think. But if you dissagree thats fine, because it depends on your campaign. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> I think you miss the role of nobility in medieval times. It it not look after your people, but rule your people. << Fine, but don't glamorize it. You have, before, tried to claim that Stefan is concerned with the people, looking after them. It's good to see you drop that absurd claim, faced with the fact that the evidence doesn't support it. >> Stefan is UNABLE to rule his way in thytis so he goes elsewhere. << Yes, in Thyatis his authority wouldn't be absolute, so he wouldn't be able to shape the people according to his whims. He was UNABLE to do that to people in Thyatis. Thus he sells out Machetos and his feudal obligations, in search of absolutist control. In any case, it has been I all along who's been arguing that Stefan is little different (no better certainly) from other rulers. It's been others who've been trying to burnish some image of him as some sort of epic hero of unadulterated virtue. >> Whose lives? a couple of tradarian rulers. big deal. Traldar has benifited I think. But if you dissagree thats fine, because it depends on your campaign. << I definately disagree that the regular Traladarans, who's lands were affected by Stefan's ill-considered apointments (again, many of those apointments were "ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them") and their heirs consider themselves better off for having been relieved of the burden of their properties. "You can't have larger ideals if the smaller get compromised. It's like building a house of sand - it cannot stand." - Commander John Sheridan, Babylon 5, Season Three, "There All the Honor Lies". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:22:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: (Re: [MYSTARA] Bargle Death) DUMB QUESTION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:07:18 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: >Dumb question: what is Gaz 1? I know the names, but not the numbers. >Flame me... > It's the Karameikos gaz... Check if you wish to see a complete list of Mystara-related products, including the various gazetteers. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:45:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Bargle Death Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:01:10 Shawn J. wrote: >In a message dated 11/16/00 7:17:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, >scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > >> Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice how >many >> levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead too... Anyway, >I'm >> really just teasing, you know. ;) >> > Aha, you took the bait--now I can tell what *really* happened to her! >Only moments away from unconsciousness and death, Aleena managed >to sip a healing potion. Sadly though, it was not powerful enough to fully >heal her grievous wound, so she lost consciousness. The hero of the Basic >set's solo adventure then carries her back to town (nearby) and takes her >"corpse" to the local clerics. They discover she's still alive and heal her >wounds immediately. She then goes on to appear in Gaz 1. > Anyone else have "workaround" explanations for other contradictions >in canon? > In case the fighter manages to resist Bargle's Charm Person spell, Bargle is too surprised to stop the hero from hitting him, but as he does, Bargle casts his Feign Death spell and then falls to the ground... The fighter, thinking that his blow was deadly, loots Bargle's body and then leaves the villain for dead... Much to displeasure of good folk, and joy of DMs everywhere ;) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:21:26 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Eyes of the serpent prestige class Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii By Dave Chinnery and Glenn Butcher This is a class suitable for spies. Members of this class may be spying in Alfheim prior to the shadow elf invasion, or as members of the second shadow. Eyes of the Serpent =================== Requirements ------------ Race: Shadow Elf Alignment: Any Move Silently: 8 ranks Hide: 8 ranks Search: 4 ranks Bluff: 4 ranks Feats: Alertness, Ironwill Special: The character must be believed to be loyal to the king, and have little allegiances with the Church of Rafiel. Class Stuff ----------- Hit Die: d6 Skills: Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, Intuit Direction, Jump, Ledge-Hopping, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope + Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Innuendo, Intimidate, Open Lock, Profession, Read Lips, Sense Motive Skill points at each level: 8 + Int modifier Weapon proficiency: crossbow (hand, or light), dagger (any), dart, longsword, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), short sword Armor proficiency: light Shield proficiency: none Level Attack Fort Ref Will Special ----- ------ ---- --- ---- ------- 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 memorize 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 false aura, evasion (as rogue 2nd) 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 sublimate personality, uncanny dodge (as rogue 3rd) 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 pass without trace 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 sense danger, uncanny dodge (as rogue 5th) 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 change self 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 slippery mind (as rogue special) 8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 hide in plain sight 9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 nondetection, improved evasion (as rogue special) 10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 change self improved memorize: The ability to memorize a short passage or conversation word for word. Diagrams may also be memorized. The character must understand what is being discussed (e.g. without some herbalism skill, it would be difficult to memorize the nomenclature and discussion in a treatise on rare life-giving herbs). false aura: Alignment can appear to change 1 step/2 levels in Eye of the Serpent prestige class. The steps are: overwhelming law/good, strong law/good, moderate law/good, faint law/good, dim law/good, neutral with respect to the law/morally, dim chaos/evil, faint chaos/evil, moderate chaos/evil, strong chaos/evil, overwhelming chaos/evil It is not possible to increase past moderate in any direction. For example, consider a 10th level moderately evil, strongly chaotic character. He can appear faintly good (5 steps) and strongly chaotic, or moderately evil and dimly lawful (5 steps), or neutral morally (3 steps) and faint chaotic (2 steps). This altered alignment will be apparent to spells attempting to detect alignment, rather than the true alignment. The character will still need to roleplay the intended alignment. sublimate personality: The character can take on the personality to go with a disguise. The ordinary personality and memories will disappear into the subconscious, until predetermined conditions occur (e.g. that night, attacked, found out, or contacted with the key phrase). Skills of the disguise personality must be from existing skills of the character (you can't suddenly use a craft you didn't have), and the same applies to knowledge and memories - often there will be strange gaps in the story, if it is quite different to the character's own experiences. +3 to disguise (the personality believes it is what it is and acts in accordance, there are no slips - only gaps in memory) Spells such as detect lie and those that read memory will not see through to the real personality (i.e. if the surface personality thinks it is saying the truth, though the character knew it was a lie, then that will not be detected as a lie by Discern Lies). change self: As per the 1st level spell. The effects last while desired (duration unlimited), but this can only be used once/week. This is detectable as the change self spell. +10 to disguise pass without trace: As per the 1st level spell. This can be used as desired, but movement rate drops to 2/3 while the character is careful not to leave tracks nor scent. change self improved: Similar to the 1st level spell, but it is physically real (like Alter Self, but can't change limbs, or add wings, etc...) and can no longer be detected by a Will save on interaction. +10 to disguise (not cumulative with the earlier ability obviously). The effects last while desired (duration unlimited), but this can only be used once/week. hide in plain sight: As per the 1st level Shadowdancer ability. sense danger: As per the high-level rogue proficiency. nondetection: As per the 3rd level spell, with a DC of 15 + Eye of the Serpent level. The Eye of the Serpent can choose to have this in effect or not. ------ Problems: I think the number of skill points and class skills, combined with the -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Noblesse Oblige >> I think you miss the role of nobility in medieval times. It it not look after your people, but rule your people. >> In my first reply, I missed a couple things. First, I need to congradulate you on finally aknowledging that Stefan's outlook isn't to look after the welfare of the people he rules. It's a step forward for you to aknowledge that what he cares about is power (ruling), not concern for the people he rules. As you say, "He does not have responsibilities to the people" in his view. They're around to be shaped and molded, not to be treated with consideration and respect. Given your statements, it's no wonder he left bad and wicked men in positions of authority over them - as you said, their welfare wasn't his concern. His power was his sole concern. But, secondly, it us you (and Stefan) who miss the role of the nobility in a Lawful Good feudal structure. The essence of which is Noblesse oblige (Nobility obligates) - obligates the noble to serve as a steward, to use his talents to take care of the people he has authority over (not swap them around and trade them off* like chattel); Nobility obligates the noble to pay respect to the people below as well as the people above him; the people below who's willingness to serve ligitimizes the noble at least as much as the granted title. And to respect those above, who's recognition of service likewise legitimates the noble. This is the Lawful Good version of a feudal structure. Of course, there are other feudal outlooks - but they aren't Lawful Good. For instance, Stefan's vision, and the one you have accurately described him as having, is "Noblesse n'oblige plus". Stefan doesn't see his position as a noble as putting him under any obligations or responsibilities, either those below him (in Machetos OR in Traladara), or those above him (the Emperor, who's authority he wants to get out from under). He doesn't feel any obligation to be a good steward to the people of Machetos, so he trades them away to pursue his own narcissistic endevor. He doesn't feel any real obligation to the people of Traladara, which is why he doesn't take care to insure they aren't despoiled and disposessed by *his* apointed agents. When Stefan turned his back on his homeland and Emperor-friend, that was another example of his attitude: Noblesse n'oblige plus. Stefan is, as you so eloquently pointed out, concerned not with looking after the people he rules, but is simply interested in ruling them (and in the process shaping them in accordance with hi! ! s own whims). Thus, again as you so aptly imply, it doesn't matter to him - it is no concern at all to him - if his agents and representatives despoil them or not, steal from them or not, deprive them of life or not. As you pointed out, it's not something he feels any responsibility about, as he doesn't feel any obligation to look after the people living under his regime. Now, one could discuss where that would put him in the spectrum of feudal lords and alignment, but it would *not* put him within the field of Lawful Good feudal lords. One might point out, for example, that Ludwig von Hendricks himself holds a very similar view (he doesn't feel any obligation to look after the people he rules, either: he is happy to rule them). Now, Ludwig's loyalty to those above him (Stefan) is also questionable - but, again, the same could be said of Stefan. And in the "canon" timeline, Ludwig never actually revolts against Stefan or tries to displace his authority over him (I myself have wondered why TSR never deployed any of the scenarios they themselves put forward as possibilities for Ludwig to do so; there were several oportunities, one being during the Great War - which would have given Stefan a good excuse for not sending help to Thyatis, if he had been busy with a rebellion by Ludwig, and another oportunity being having Ludwig start a revolt against! ! Stefan as the means of eliminating him in AC 1011, instead of the Hin thing. But the point is they didn't. Stefan, on the other hand. . ."sells out his longtime allies" and "betrays his homeland", according to "canon" - and, as I said, had TSR wanted to, and seen Stefan in this unvarnished light as a virtuous man, they could have provided him with a handy & good excuse for his actions, having Ludwig tie Karameikos up in a revolt at the time, but they DIDN'T, and instead portrayed Stefan's actions during the war as what they were). So, we can see that a Lawful Good noble has a sense of Noblesse oblige, while Stefan, in your own assertions of what you think he sees his role as, has a sense of Noblesse n'oblige plus when it comes to himself. Nobility no longer obligates him - he has authority without responsibilities. That does make him a despot and a tyrrant, and seems more reminicent of how Drow rulers see their authority than how a Good ruler would. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:13:06 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It aaaaaaaalways come to Shwn's... It's a global pit of potencial. A black hole A... well, something crazy around the "Spelljammer" part of Mystara. Maybe he is a powerful being. Thanks, people, for the info. I'll check the link. I see I've got LOTS of material to get. I have the K:KoA but not the Gaz1 box. Where can I find Mystara stuff? People told me about e-Bay. There was that girl and her auction somwe 3 months ago... what else? vini... magus. The Stalker wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:07:18 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > >Dumb question: what is Gaz 1? I know the names, but not the numbers. > >Flame me... > > > > It's the Karameikos gaz... > > Check if you wish to see a complete list of Mystara-related products, including the various gazetteers. > > - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:05:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit there is always a lot of stuff on ebay, but they can be quite expensive (especialy the rare stuff like B10, X10 and the like) you can go to shawn site (as always) and to the link page . And if i remind correctly, at the bottom of it there should be the links to places where to find mystara stuff... "Vinicius R. de Moraes" a �crit : > It aaaaaaaalways come to Shwn's... > > It's a global pit of potencial. A black hole A... well, something crazy > around the "Spelljammer" part of Mystara. Maybe he is a powerful being. > > Thanks, people, for the info. I'll check the link. I see I've got LOTS > of material to get. I have the K:KoA but not the Gaz1 box. > Where can I find Mystara stuff? People told me about e-Bay. There was > that girl and her auction somwe 3 months ago... what else? > > vini... magus. > > The Stalker wrote: > > > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:07:18 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > > >Dumb question: what is Gaz 1? I know the names, but not the numbers. > > >Flame me... > > > > > > > It's the Karameikos gaz... > > > > Check if you wish to see a complete list of Mystara-related products, including the various gazetteers. > > > > - The Stalker > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:56:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization In-Reply-To: <20001116192837.26780.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 11:28:37AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 11:28:37AM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > In a previous mail I sergested that the reason the > Pyrithians were stuck in space is that fusion is > dangerous near Mystara and if they were reliant on it > they may have settled on damocles, with other > exploring members of blackmoor unable to return > because of their technology. Perhaps more magic gets > drawn to damocles over time (Mystara influence?) and > that caused all their fusion reactors to malfunction > at about the same time, obliterating the planet. > What do you think? Sort of what could have happened to Mystara if the blackmoorians had had a few more reactors? I like it... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:16:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). In-Reply-To: <3A14BE62.E58C5ED5@engineer.com>; from vini@ENGINEER.COM on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 02:13:06AM -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 02:13:06AM -0300, Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > It aaaaaaaalways come to Shwn's... It's almost like it's the official Mystara site or something :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:31:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001116223657.3846.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:36:57PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:36:57PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > He does ask them to change their thinking. He wants > > the ruling Traladaran families to stop thinking that > > they have any power. > > They don't have any power. They did before Stefan came along. Now they don't. > > This was their country, > > shouldn't > > he abide by their rules? Well no, because he marched > > in > > and conquered them. [Go Stefan! :) ] > > Now you get it. Well, I actually like the image of Stefan as a narcassist. Nothing wrong with having a ruler like him, he's not a goody goody which makes things much more fun... > (were their rules worth abiding be, I > don't know) And it was already under thytainian > control anyway. Marlinev was under Thyatian control, the rest of the country wasn't really. Sure it would say on a map that Traladara was part of Thyatis, but to the people of Traladara, there would be little influence in their daily lives. That changed when Stefan arrived. > (which usually does little good.) Change for the > better from the inside is usually more effective. I dunno about that, surely you can change things by marching in, abusing the locals and changing everyone to your way of thinking. That's what Stefan did after all...or would you suggest that if he had worked from the inside, with the Traladaran leaders, that the change for the better would be more effective? > > > those that > > > would hate it are somewhere else or DEAD. > > > > Like those involved in the rebellion against > > Stefan. > > Why did they rebel, they didn't give him a chance to > my understanding. Hmm, perhaps the people of Sind should give the Master some time before complaining about their current situation. > Besides I suspect it was probally > the nobles leading the people and giving false images > of stefan more then the peasants. I think it extremely likely that it was the nobles leading the people, they had the most to lose after all. However they wouldn't really need to give false images to get them to fight. Most people in the world, from what I've seen, tend to be reasonably patriotic. Even while slaggin off and complaining of our homes, we still consider them *our* homes, and if someone was to suggest coming in and taking over and fixing things, we'd probably not agree too much. If the US were to take over Canada, or vice versa, or Ireland to take over Scotland [ignore the improbability of these events :) ] I don't think it would just be the higher ups who would be narked, even if the new rulers would be able to make things better than before - it's still not something most people will welcome. Did that make any sense? gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:09:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Thanks, people, for the info. I'll check the link. I see I've got LOTS > of material to get. I have the K:KoA but not the Gaz1 box. > Where can I find Mystara stuff? People told me about e-Bay. There was > that girl and her auction somwe 3 months ago... what else? It essentially depends on how much you're willing to pay or wait: if you'd rather pay than wait, auctions are what you need. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for WotC to release all of the old 2e and OD&D material online (it will take one year, more or less). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:14:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In case the fighter manages to resist Bargle's Charm Person spell, Bargle is too surprised to stop the hero from hitting him, but as he does, Bargle casts his Feign Death spell and then falls to the ground... The fighter, thinking that his blow was deadly, loots Bargle's body and then leaves the villain for dead... Much to displeasure of good folk, and joy of DMs everywhere ;) > > - The Stalker Fighters are not SO stupid! Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:52:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:13:06 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: >It aaaaaaaalways come to Shwn's... > >It's a global pit of potencial. It is! > A black hole A... well, something crazy >around the "Spelljammer" part of Mystara. Maybe he is a powerful being. > Well, he has had the help of a lot of people on this list, since most of the interesting stuff on the MML turns up there. Then again, there is a reason why WOTC decided to make his site the official Mystara site. >Thanks, people, for the info. I'll check the link. Glad to be of help. > I see I've got LOTS >of material to get. I have the K:KoA but not the Gaz1 box. Actually, the gazetteers aren't boxes (except for the much-mentioned Dawn of the Emperors, which describes the empires of Alphatia and Thyatis), they're 'books' with cardboard covers. They contain the best information about Mystara around, though. Don't be discouraged about their availability - I had none of the gazetteers last January, but now there are only four I don't have (of fifteen, including DOTE), so it *is* possible to find them! >Where can I find Mystara stuff? People told me about e-Bay. There was >that girl and her auction somwe 3 months ago... what else? > I've had good experience with Cyberdungeon. You can find them at , but there are also places like and several other good on-line retailers. If you look around on Shawn's site (yes, him again!) I think you can find a much more complete list. Herve Musseau also includes a dedicated list of online retailers in his various updates of 'Mystara FAQ' IIRC. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:33:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: MMercury ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: John Calvin >Another good point. Although to say that they wouldn't be of much use is going a bit overboard IMO. They'd be barren wastelands, yes...but not useless. I can see MMercury becoming a haven for elementals, and other heat/cold loving/resistant creatures. Elementals could populate the place quite quickly IMO. Other life forms might come along, but at a much slower pace. It could have a really frontier feel to it. In "Blue Mars" (of the Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson) all planets and planetoids of the Solar System are colonized, including Mercury. The Terrans (RW Mystarans :) build a train city that moves at 3kph IIRC so that it always remain at the terminator zone of one hemisphere (the mild zone where the sun is about to go up). Of course there's also the atmosphere problem, but if you assume that all planets have a skyshield than that zone is habitable by a nomadic human population, or by other Mystaran races (and animals) that could go nomad. You could even have plant life, as Mystara has a few that can actually move. Oh, and because it would be impossible to go from one terminator to the other (at least not without magic), you could have two vastly different flora & fauna & intelligent cultures in the north and south terminators. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:56:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Bargle Death Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:14:41 Caroletti wrote: >> In case the fighter manages to resist Bargle's Charm Person spell, Bargle is too surprised to stop the hero from hitting him, but as he does, Bargle casts his Feign Death spell and then falls to the ground... The fighter, thinking that his blow was deadly, loots Bargle's body and then leaves the villain for dead... Much to displeasure of good folk, and joy of DMs everywhere ;) >> >> - The Stalker > >Fighters are not SO stupid! > >Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) > "I rest my case!" :) Sorry, I know it's heresy! Feign Death is a 3rd-level AD&D (2e) wizard spell that immediately lets the caster fall into a state that is completely indistinguishable from actual death (except for the use of spells such as Detect Life...). Given that a fighter from (by AC 1,000) magic-poor Karameikos was the hero, I doubt he would have heard of it... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:28:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Evil Genius >Stefan's *behavior* is the very definition of Chaotic: >1) His behavior is erratic; sometimes he's concientious in his decisions, other times he's not, and seems to make abitrary appointments without regard to merit. >2) He is an egoist - a Lawful person would have changed *his* name to reflect the country he rules before he changed the name of the *country*. A sure sign that he sees himself (Karameikos) as the primary (or "subject" - meaning that which is the "topic" of principle importance rather than that which is subject to), Traladara itself as the secondary (or "object"). >3) He puts his individual interests and "vision" ahead of society/"the many". He views it as his perogative to shape and mold entire nations in his own image. >4) If you go by what Chris says, he sees his role in history as primary - thus giving him the "right" to behave however he wants in order to achieve his personal, individual "destiny" as a "Great Man". Lawful "Great Men" achieve that as an almost accidental by-product of decisions they make based on the circumstances they confront, rather than going out to deliberately seek a "Legacy" because one sees themselves deserving of a status of "Greatness". >5) resentment towards legitimate authority (he leaves Thyatis at least partly for this reason - while under its authority, he can't "shape" and "mold" entire nations; he also desposes of the legitimate Traladaran authorities right after he arrives in Traladara), recklessness (his decisions regarding which Thyatians who go to Traladara are given positions by him are, if nothing else, reckless), irresponsibility (following those reckless appointments, he just washes his hands of the effects). >6) "He is an individualist first and last." "He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions." - He puts himself first, he makes the trade so that he can avoid anyone having authority over him while he pursues his "vision", which consists not only of challenging the traditions of Traladara but sweeping many of them away. >Stefan is Chaotic Neutral. Using those rules, all PCs that create dominions (esp in NW as detailed in CM1) are chaotic neutral. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:47:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >Fighters are not SO stupid! > > > >Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) > > > > "I rest my case!" :) > > Sorry, I know it's heresy! Thanks for the explanation, I knew...I was joking, but no, obviously an Alphatian couldn't understand that even FIGHTERS ARE ABLE TO JOKE! 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:51:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > - I had none of the gazetteers last January, but now there are only four I don't have (of fifteen, including DOTE), so it *is* possible to find them! I miss only two...ha! Thyatis wins, Alphatia loses! 8-) And one of them is "The Five Shires", so I don't care anyway...hey, Beau, have you any idea of what those halflings are doing here at the Harbour....hey.. hey! (anguished look)...WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:53:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Stefan had to know what Thincol was going to do -- the right to sell off the great wealth of Machetos was basically all that Stefan offered Thincol that was of any real value, and they both had to know that. The privilege of appointing a new duke was actually a loss, as he went from having a loyal vassal (Stefan) to one who thought he was being rewarded but became very resentful when he realized that he had been given a ruined dominion (Callastian) to try to eke a living from. Actually that is only inference on your part. The totally opposite inference can be made, and it would be equally valid: Stefan wanted to get a new dominion, one where he could have more of an impact on, so he traded his duchy of machetos for the grand duchy of traladara, in a very Glantrian way. The benefit for him was obvious: he had a higher title and autonomy while still benefitting from the empire's protection. He thought that Thincol would give his old duchy to some favorite of him, as a political move, as happens in Glantri; thus, in his opinion, he was getting the better deal because Thincol only had some (presumably advantageous) nobility shift. Never did Stefan imagine that Thincol intended to completely strip the duchy from its riches, bleeding it dry; and when this happens Stefan isn't happy about Thincol's betrayal and what he did to his old duchy. There ends the friendship between the two; Thincol ends it as Stefan isn't useful to him anymore (as befits his character), and Stefan forever holds a grudge against Thincol for twisting the deal they made and making the life of his former subjects worse (and probably also making Stefan bad publicity in Machetos, as now it would appear that he abandoned them and sold them, while this was never what he intended). Though he was still protected by the shadow of the empire, Stefan now also had reason to fear it, and built its own army and did his best to make new allies and try to prevent Thyatis from ever attacking his new land. When there is finally a chance, not only doesn't he assist Thincol in his insane war against Alphatia, but he uses the opportunity to assert his independence and get even closer to his allies (Darokin et al), and also strikes a deal with Alphatia so that Thyatis is even less likely to attack Karameikos (although he's taking a chance, because such an alliance with the Alphatians is dangerous as the Alphatians might turn on him later). After the sinking of Alphatia he loses that support from the eastern empire (and thus, also the risk of betrayal), but he increases ties with the western nations even more (the WDL) and makes gestures of appeasements toward Thyatis (grain relief). ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:24:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually that is only inference on your part. > The totally opposite inference can be made, > . Never > did Stefan imagine that Thincol intended to completely strip the duchy from its > riches, bleeding it dry Difficult to think so according to DotE, as Stephan offered Machetos because he knew that Thincol needed mony. Now, how could Stefan's change of dominion be useful to Thincol if things happened like you say? I think that clearly Stephan knew what would happen...but he didn't care. > and Stefan forever holds a grudge against Thincol for > twisting the deal they made and making the life of his former subjects worse ...but he keeps it from himself playing the happy mate of Thincol for years in order to protect his territory, and then when Thincol needs him (and, more important, his motherland needs his help), he turns his back to him... very lawful indeed....he sacrifies an Empire for a personal resentement. It's a typical chaotic action. A paladin wouldn't do such a dishonorable thing. > and did his best to make > new allies and try to prevent Thyatis from ever attacking his new land. Only when it's clear that Thyatis is losing the war I think that TSR and Allston simply failed to give good explanations for Stephan's character, motivations and how he accomplishes things. Stephan is one of the worse characters of the setting, and the way it is portrayed, there are only two possibilities: 1) he is a total incompetent who doesn't understand the consiquences of what he is doing, and is manouvered by his wife, 2) he is a cleric of Bozdogan. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:24:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Bargle Death Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:47:20 Caroletti wrote: >> >> > >> >Fighters are not SO stupid! >> > >> >Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) >> > >> >> "I rest my case!" :) >> >> Sorry, I know it's heresy! > >Thanks for the explanation, I knew...I was joking, but no, obviously an >Alphatian couldn't understand that even FIGHTERS ARE ABLE TO JOKE! >8-) > No. So that *that*!!! :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:31:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:51:00 Caroletti wrote: >> - I had none of the gazetteers last January, but now there are only four I don't have (of fifteen, including DOTE), so it *is* possible to find them! > >I miss only two...ha! Thyatis wins, Alphatia loses! 8-) >And one of them is "The Five Shires", so I don't care anyway... > Well, that's one of those I don't have either (though I did have an opportunity to get it about a month ago), but I don't care either... Another is the Glantri gaz, so I don't care about that either, nor do I care about the Minrothad gaz - that's part of Thyatis now! :) The last one is the Orcs of Thar gaz, which I'd like to get more than the rest... If that means you win, then congratulations! Accept this present as your prize: a few gems (not yet exploded Delayed Blast Fireballs!) :) >hey, Beau, >have you any idea of what those halflings are doing here at the Harbour....hey.. >hey! (anguished look)...WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? > Lords above! PLEASE DON'T TELL US!!!!! ;) - Stalker, the oh-so humorless :) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:35:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > What if: > Lawful = puplic order? chaotic = self interest? > Good = prefers all to be well off, nice people > generally. > Evil = he and his cronies get should their way, > regardless of how nice it is. suffering is fine... > Assuming the above definitions... > Stefan "believes" that all should be better off, and > that would be best under his rule. I don't dispute > some bad, but it is based on belief in good and the > puplic. Should he see real suffering of the people he > would change but gennerally my understanding is just > unhappiness because they are not in control. > ...this results in Stefan being True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. Why? Although he "believes" that "all" should be better off, he maintains that this can only be done under *HIS* rule, *HIS* way. This reeks of self-interest; even if he tries to benefit others, *HE* decides how they benefit and who "they" are. > Stefans alignment is based on how you play him and > your interpretation of what constitutes good, evil, > lawful, and chaotic. > > In my campaign he is Lawful, and if I played AD&D good > too. > By your interpretation of the alignments above, he is True Neutral. > I would have done the same and I concider myself > lawful. He believes he is doing good. Ego is not an > element of law and chaos. Besides it's just a name not > a god or something. > Believing is not the same as doing. I'm sure Hosadus believes he is doing good too. > someone else, and the rest of his cronies because the > Traladaran authorities whould not suport him, they > would rather have the power. That does not make them > better then stefan or legitimate, but thats not to say > they couldn't be either. But you never get the perfect Traladaran rulers in their own country weren't legitimate?! What is your definition of legitimate? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:11:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what >> Using those rules, all PCs that create dominions (esp in NW as detailed in CM1) are chaotic neutral. << No, that's not true. Those who emulate Stefan are probably, but not all others. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> I don't think it would just be the higher ups who would be narked, even if the new rulers would be able to make things better than before - it's still not something most people will welcome. << >> Did that make any sense? << Perfect sense. Most people, even if they don't think well of their own rulers, aren't going to welcome a foreigner to replace them. After all, as you said, they have their national pride. IMO, the Traladaran people are a patient but confident folk. When the revolt didn't work, they figured they'll just bide their time. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:02:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Eyes of the serpent prestige class In-Reply-To: <20001117102126.A239110@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:21 11/17/00 +0800, Glenn Butcher wrote: >By Dave Chinnery and Glenn Butcher > >This is a class suitable for spies. Members of this class may be spying in Alfheim >prior to the shadow elf invasion, or as members of the second shadow. I like this prestige class in general, and I'll likely use a more final version IMC for a major NPC. I have some problems with the current version, though. >Eyes of the Serpent >=================== >Requirements >------------ >Alignment: Any Really? >Move Silently: 8 ranks >Hide: 8 ranks >Search: 4 ranks >Bluff: 4 ranks I think for a spy whose main role is to infiltrate other elven groups (which is what I recall their mission to be, although I could be wrong), this should be higher. >Feats: Alertness, Ironwill I'd also look into the new Forgotten Realms Living City feats at the WotC site, specifically the sunlight adaptation feat. >Hit Die: d6 >Skills: Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, > Intuit Direction, Jump, Ledge-Hopping, Listen, Move Silently, Search, > Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope > + Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Innuendo, > Intimidate, Open Lock, Profession, Read Lips, Sense Motive >Skill points at each level: 8 + Int modifier Too many. Rogues get that many skill points, but they don't get as many class abilities as the Eyes of the Serpent do. I'd knock this down to six or even four. And what's with the "+"? >Level Attack Fort Ref Will Special Again, these are REALLY good saves. Combined with the really high skill points, this is better than any other class. I'd make the saves be Will or Reflex dominant, not both. >memorize: The ability to memorize a short passage or conversation word for > word. Diagrams may also be memorized. The character must understand > what is being discussed (e.g. without some herbalism skill, it would > be difficult to memorize the nomenclature and discussion in a > treatise on rare life-giving herbs). Cool. >false aura: Alignment can appear to change 1 step/2 levels in Eye of the > Serpent prestige class. The steps are: > > overwhelming law/good, strong law/good, moderate law/good, faint > law/good, dim law/good, neutral with respect to the law/morally, dim > chaos/evil, faint chaos/evil, moderate chaos/evil, strong chaos/evil, > overwhelming chaos/evil > > It is not possible to increase past moderate in any direction. > > For example, consider a 10th level moderately evil, strongly chaotic > character. He can appear faintly good (5 steps) and strongly chaotic, > or moderately evil and dimly lawful (5 steps), or neutral morally (3 > steps) and faint chaotic (2 steps). > > This altered alignment will be apparent to spells attempting to > detect alignment, rather than the true alignment. The character will > still need to roleplay the intended alignment. This is over-complicated, IMO. Why not just use the core nine alignments? It would still be several levels before a CE Shadow Elf -- not unlikely in the Eyes of the Serpent -- could blend in with CG surface elves. >sublimate personality: The character can take on the personality to go with > a disguise. The ordinary personality and memories will disappear > into the subconscious, until predetermined conditions occur (e.g. > that night, attacked, found out, or contacted with the key phrase). > Skills of the disguise personality must be from existing skills of > the character (you can't suddenly use a craft you didn't have), and > the same applies to knowledge and memories - often there will be > strange gaps in the story, if it is quite different to the > character's own experiences. > +3 to disguise (the personality believes it is what it is and acts >in accordance, there are no slips - only gaps in memory) > > Spells such as detect lie and those that read memory will not see > through to the real personality (i.e. if the surface personality > thinks it is saying the truth, though the character knew it was a > lie, then that will not be detected as a lie by Discern Lies). >hide in plain sight: As per the 1st level Shadowdancer ability. I don't like giving anyone but Shadowdancers this ability, although I could certainly see the Shadow Elves having Shadowdancers. But it's one of the abilities that defines that other prestige class, and duplicating it for another group takes away a lot of what makes them special, IMO. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior >>...this results in Stefan being True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. Why? Although he "believes" that "all" should be better off, << Well, as Chris pointed out in a later mail, Stefan is actually indifferent to their well-being; he doesn't see it as his role to insure they are taken care of. So you're right: by that standard, Stefan is Neutral to Chaotic Neutral (because he is also a narcissist). >> Believing is not the same as doing. I'm sure Hosadus believes he is doing good too. << And Hosadus didn't unleash his nasty cousin on the people of Sind. Indeed, when Hosadus recognized that Kitan ul-Nervi wasn't working out as ruler of Sind, he replaced him quickly with Chandra. Thus we can see that in actuality, by observable deed, Hosadus has shown more concern for insuring proper government in Sind than Stefan has in Karameikos. . . >> Traladaran rulers in their own country weren't legitimate?! What is your definition of legitimate? << Stefan's Sycophant's definition of "legitimate" seems to be "Stefan is legitimate, everyone else is illigitimate by comparison, thus it is proper for Stefan to displace anyone he wants, and it is a legitimate act." I next expect them to claim that it would be legitimate for Stefan to simply sieze Machetos at the first opportunity or turn the WDL into a Karameikan Empire. This is actually sort of the Chaotic Evil theory of power. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:07:34 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? In-Reply-To: <3A154DB5.47DB8FFD@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Caroletti wrote: > > Actually that is only inference on your part. > > The totally opposite inference can be made, > > > . Never > > did Stefan imagine that Thincol intended to completely strip the duchy from its > > riches, bleeding it dry > > Difficult to think so according to DotE, as Stephan offered Machetos because > he knew that Thincol needed mony. Now, how could Stefan's change of > dominion be useful to Thincol if things happened like you say? I think that > clearly Stephan knew what would happen...but he didn't care. > Sale of office. Thincol could quite easily sell off the title without plundering the land and still make a profit. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? >> Sale of office. Thincol could quite easily sell off the title without plundering the land and still make a profit. << Not enough to make it worth trading away all of Traladara. Anyhow, Stefan showed him the way - as already discussed, Stefan did the same thing; selling off assets in Machetos and "plundering" them for use elsewhere. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:38:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: MMercury ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> In "Blue Mars" (of the Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson) all planets and planetoids of the Solar System are colonized, including Mercury. The Terrans (RW Mystarans :) build a train city that moves at 3kph IIRC so that it always remain at the terminator zone of one hemisphere (the mild zone where the sun is about to go up). << Yeah I remember that. Good trilogy BTW. I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the process of terraforming and colonization of the solar system. >> Of course there's also the atmosphere problem, but if you assume that all planets have a skyshield than that zone is habitable by a nomadic human population, or by other Mystaran races (and animals) that could go nomad. << A skyshield would solve the atmosphere problem, but I think that the greater problem would be temperature. Mystaran races would have to live at the terminator as you mention, but they would have to be pretty quick in order to actually be able to stay within the terminator as the planet rotates. Pretty quick, and constantly moving. Another option would be to populate the day side with heat loving creatures, and the night side with cold loving creatures. These beings could be a mix of nomads or hybernators, and thus be able to either keep up with the daytime, or hybernate during it (depending upon physiology). The Nomads would still need to be pretty fast (and constantly on the move) in order to keep up with the 175 day long "daytime". They would effectively have to travel half the circumference of the planet every 175 days in order to accomplish this. Still hard to do, but easier than trying to stay in the terminator. >> You could even have plant life, as Mystara has a few that can actually move. << They'd have to move pretty darn quich though, or end up either being burned to a crisp, or frozen solid (depending upon which terminator they lived on). >> Oh, and because it would be impossible to go from one terminator to the other (at least not without magic), you could have two vastly different flora & fauna & intelligent cultures in the north and south terminators. << But it wouldn't be impossible to move from the northern to southern hemisphere. You would simply have to travel at an angle instead of along a straight line. You would also have to travel faster to make up for the fact that you are increasing the distance by moving diagonally. I don't see any reason why a group of such speedy nomads could travel from the north pole to the south pole, and then back again. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:19:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve Musseau wrote: > [..] > Using those rules, all PCs that create dominions (esp in NW as detailed in CM1) > are chaotic neutral. Really? I don't remember that being egoist, nepotistic, megalomaniac and individualistic were among the conditions set by Ericall for the prospective Barons. Sure, Max I probably embodies this paradigm quite well, but he *is* Chaotic Neutral at best. ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:37:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > > >> Sale of office. Thincol could quite easily sell off the title without plundering the land and still make a profit. << > > Not enough to make it worth trading away all of Traladara. Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of Traladara, if that was a feasible solution. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:57:10 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? In-Reply-To: <3A15B32A.2C3F7AEB@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Agathokles wrote: > Evil Genius wrote: > > > > >> Sale of office. Thincol could quite easily sell off the title without plundering the land and still make a profit. << > > > > Not enough to make it worth trading away all of Traladara. > > Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of Traladara, if that was > a feasible solution. The difference here is that no one WANTED Traladara except for Stefan. A prospective buyer would have to put a lot of work into Traladara. Machetos, on ehe other hand, had a high value to a potential purchaser. In the long run, Traladara would be a better investment, but only after a lot of work and at the risk of being killed off by the natives. If people had wanted to buy Traladara from the emperor, it wouldn't have just sat around for seventy years after the Thyatian conquest without a Thyatian Duke running the show. Machetos, on the other hand, was a very valuable property, already developed, and carrying a good sale value. It was quite reasonable that Stefan might have believed Thincol would simply sell it off for a profit; after all, Stefan tends to be a poor judge of character, and believes the best of people until it's shoved up his nose that he shouldn't. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:04:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:51:00 Caroletti wrote: > >> - I had none of the gazetteers last January, but now there are only four I don't have (of fifteen, including DOTE), so it *is* possible to find them! > > > >I miss only two...ha! Thyatis wins, Alphatia loses! 8-) > >And one of them is "The Five Shires", so I don't care anyway... > > > > Well, that's one of those I don't have either (though I did have an opportunity to get it about a month ago), but I don't care either... Another is the Glantri gaz, so I don't care about that either, nor do I care about the Minrothad gaz - that's part of Thyatis now! :) > > The last one is the Orcs of Thar gaz, which I'd like to get more than the rest... If that means you win, then congratulations! Accept this present as your prize: a few gems (not yet exploded Delayed Blast Fireballs!) :) > > >hey, Beau, > >have you any idea of what those halflings are doing here at the Harbour....hey.. > >hey! (anguished look)...WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? > > > > Lords above! PLEASE DON'T TELL US!!!!! ;) > > - Stalker, the oh-so humorless :) > - An amused Ex-Glantri-now-Karameikos-Wizard sits down to watch two overconfident and stupid people of magic and arms to hack themthelves down with words. Always a pleasure to watch :) - His sympathy so long goes with the supposedly stupid one of Thyatis, who remembers him of an old friend Paladin. Laren Nightmaster alias Daniel Mayer - keeping some kind of "sphere of force" around him :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:03:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:04:06 Daniel Mayer wrote: (snip mails by Caroletti and myself) > >- An amused Ex-Glantri-now-Karameikos-Wizard sits down to watch two >overconfident and stupid people of magic and arms to hack themthelves >down with words. Always a pleasure to watch :) - His sympathy so long >goes with the supposedly stupid one of Thyatis, who remembers him of an >old friend Paladin. > > >Laren Nightmaster >alias Daniel Mayer >- keeping some kind of "sphere of force" around him :) > Well, you'd better! If you keep watching us like that, are you *sure* that we won't get so grumpy that we'll decide to work *together* to teach you a lesson?? No? You're probably right... :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? >> The difference here is that no one WANTED Traladara except for Stefan. A prospective buyer would have to put a lot of work into Traladara. << Per DotE, that's what you GET when you buy a title: a scruffy dominion that no one wants. >> It was quite reasonable that Stefan might have believed Thincol would simply sell it off << Well, that's true. Stefan sold out the Machetans, so he probably used his own attitude as the reference: he sold them out, so he'd see Thincol as likely to do the same as he did. On the other hand, though, Stefan also sold off property in Machetos and transfered the proceeds to some other project. That is also in essence what Thincol did. Now, I understand that some people see the same action different depending upon who does it. Sycophants of Stefan look at him selling assets in Machetos and stripping away the wealth to Traladara as acceptable, but look at Thincol doing that and decry it as deplorable, and a betrayal of Stefan (Note: the same people also simoultaniously claim Stefan cut his ties to the region when he traded it away. Which is true in this case; if Stefan expected to protect Machetos, he'd not have traded them away to begin with. If Stefan cared one way or another about the Machetans, ditto.) I know that the double standard is very popular in situations like this, but I don't fall for it. And John, I respect you too much to think you really do either, and would be disapointed to be proven wrong. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:13:43 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Stefan Immortal? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Anybody of you know if Stefan is making (or will make) a quest to become immortal? AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:41:18 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Re: Bargle Death Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Thu, 16 November 2000, Jacob Skytte ha scritto: > Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice how many levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead too... Anyway, I'm really just teasing, you know. ;) > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk How did you know that Bargle was only a Simulacra? In The Gaz 1 Bargle is "only" a 15Th level uman mage. I have to say, moreover, that before the two beasts were charmed, the adventurer had fought hardly with Bargle and therefore he was already tired when he fought the beasts Leonardo "Damon Whiteblade" Giuliani AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:30:36 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Stefan Immortal? In-Reply-To: <20001118001343.16812.cpmta@c000.muc.cp.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:13 11/18/00 +0000, Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: >Anybody of you know if Stefan is making (or will make) a quest to become immortal? What if he already has, or is underway? That could explain the Cult of Halav, who might just be getting the details wrong. I haven't received my copy of WotI yet (FINALLY won one in good condition at eBay), but is it possible someone on the Path of the Polymath might be able to grant spells somewhere along the line? Or that their sponsor might? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan Immortal? >> Anybody of you know if Stefan is making (or will make) a quest to become immortal? << There's nothing in canon that suggests he even knows its possible, and he's getting a bit old to start, though you can certainly have him do so in your campaign if you think it's warranted. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:30:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan Immortal? >> What if he already has, or is underway? << >> That could explain the Cult of Halav, who might just be getting the details wrong. << So, you're saying that he's Questing as an Entropic and one of the things he must achieve is to decieve people into thinking he's already an Immortal, like Hosadus? >> I haven't received my copy of WotI yet (FINALLY won one in good condition at eBay), but is it possible someone on the Path of the Polymath might be able to grant spells somewhere along the line? << No. People questing for Immortalty but who have not achieved it yet do not have the ability to grant spells. >> Or that their sponsor might? << Loki/Bozdogan might do so when Sponsoring someone, but he isn't doing it for Hosadus so I doubt he'd do it for Stefan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:50:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: NPC Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys! After reading those hundreds of articels (o.k., I just read the subject of most of them), I�m curios what are your personal PCs. I guess Stalker is a kind of 6th lvl alphatian dabbler with a serious mind affecting curse bestowed on him, thinking of himself he�s an archmage :) I�d love to get your specs in AD&D to use them as NPCs in my campaign. Perhaps it�s too much for the M-L to post? But perhaps others would like to have the specs, too. Perhaps some private spells could be shown, too. (I would post my favorite, too...)? And I�m especally interested in higher-level thieves because of the current state of my campaign (>15th lvl OD&D comparable). Thanks in advance Daniel aka Laren Nightmaster ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:13:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description (longish) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NENTSUN AC 1000: THE INNER CIRCLE General Description Area: 366,500 kmq (143,164 sq.m) Population: 1,076,000. Language: Nentsunian, Rakastan (Lynxmen dialect), Ursinian. Coinage: Sin (gp), Yai (sp), Chu (cp). Description: The Inner Circle is the northern part of Nentsun. It is known also as the Nentsun Coast, as it stretches along the shores of the Sea of Simurgh (the name by which the Sea of Brun is known on this side of the ocean). About half of the Inner Circle�s land is covered by forests (mostly ash and coniferous), while the other half is settled by human and rakastan farmers, who get along very well and are distributed equally in most of the kingdoms. The agricoltural activities deal with potatoes and wheat, and they are quite productive, if we consider the latitude. This is a consiquence of the power of the Unholy Devices, who keep the land a little warmer than it would otherwise be. The sea outside Nentsun is cold, and cold currents wash its shores, making the area not suited to fishing, and if it was not for the Devices, it would also make the land colder than it would be for its latitude. There are eight kingdoms, here. From west, the first kingdom is Cholonis; then there is Selemy; south of Selemy is Zeshuita; east of both are Vixen (north), Einikushagi (center) and Wolven (south); lastly, east of Einikushagi is Pakishagij and lastly, in the easternmost border of the Inner Circle is Ursi. The People: The settlers of the Inner Circle call themselves collectively as Insunians (Nentsunians of the Inner Circle). They are all humans and rakastas, with few exceptions (like the orc enclave of Einikushagi). Humans belong to the Nentsunian racial stock: they are descendants of the aboriginal settlers of the area, the Nasuuans, of mixed Thonian and Afridhi ethnicity. They are tall, of a sort of beige tan that is completely unique in Skothar, with white-blond or blue-black hair, and brown or green eyes. Blue or black eyes are very uncommon, but not impossible to find. Brown hair is also rare. In Ursi, the common human population are the so-called Ursinians, descended from a peaceful race of mixed Afridhi and Tanagoro stock who arrived here 1,700 years ago. The Ursinians founded the cities of Ursi and Selemy, and while most of them mixed with the Nentsunians (providing the genes for the rare black or brown haired, and blue-eyed among them), in Ursi they remained quite similar to their ancestors, and they mantain a language that they pretend to call Ursinian, but that is just a Nentsunian dialect with a strong accent, and some old true-Ursinian words in it. However, in these cities, the people are generally of more slender built than the average Nentsunian, their skin is somewhat darker, and they have mostly dark brown and black hair, and brown or blue eyes. Rakastas here belong to the Lynxmen stock. A small enclave of orcs called Ondonti live in Einikushagi [see below]. Flora and Fauna: Ash, coniferous, pastures, farmlands cover the region, depending on the humanoid presence and the Devices� influence. Deer, elks, bears, lynxs, wolves live in the forests. Lynxs and dogs are kept as domestic animals; cows, sheep and goats are among those farmed. No types of chicken seem to exist here. Several species of small mammals, many different birds, and birds of prey (eagles, hawks), live in the region. The hilly regions of the Inner Circle are also home to a big variety of giant worms, that sometimes pose a big threat to the smaller communities. Some of the animals are somewhat different from those of the Known World, being different varieties of the same species (ex. there are both the brown bear and the black bear, who is mostly unknown in the KW). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:16:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: NPC Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Daniel Mayer wrote: > Hi Guys! > > After reading those hundreds of articels (o.k., I just read the subject > of most of them), I�m curios what are your personal PCs. I guess Stalker > is a kind of 6th lvl alphatian dabbler with a serious mind affecting > curse bestowed on him, thinking of himself he�s an archmage :) Iulius Sergius Scaevola is up at Shawn's, with stats and all... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:22:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >- An amused Ex-Glantri-now-Karameikos-Wizard sits down to watch two > >overconfident and stupid people of magic and arms to hack themthelves > >down with words. Always a pleasure to watch :) Well, one day or another I am going to take out all the mails of past conflicts between me and the Stalker and send them again...although there are probably several members of the list who are tired of these tongue-in- -cheek verbal fights...on my part, I sometimes laugh myself to tears... > - His sympathy so long > >goes with the supposedly stupid one of Thyatis, who remembers him of an > >old friend Paladin. See, Stalker? "Supposedly"... > Well, you'd better! If you keep watching us like that, are you *sure* that we won't get so grumpy that we'll decide to work *together* to teach you a lesson?? No? You're probably right... :) I doubt it. The only past time when we agreed was when we planned that vacation in Ierendi...but then someone (Kayvid?) told us that the beautiful girls on the depliants are not found on the islands themselves, so we didn't do anything with it, either... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:53:08 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Eyes of the serpent prestige class In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001117080249.007ab2f0@10.1.1.1>; from lby3@LBY3.COM on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 08:02:49AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 08:02:49AM -0800, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > At 10:21 11/17/00 +0800, Glenn Butcher wrote: > >By Dave Chinnery and Glenn Butcher > > > I like this prestige class in general, and I'll likely use a more final > version IMC for a major NPC. I have some problems with the current version, > though. Good! thats why I've posted. I've split my reply into two parts, for reasons that will become clear.. > >Eyes of the Serpent > >=================== > >Requirements > >------------ > >Alignment: Any > > Really? Yes. When I read (and reread) the SE gaz, I didn't see anything that made me think the shadow elves were, say, evil. Compare the description of their daily life to drow. A SE shaman who traveled with the party for a while was, in fact, LG. Didn't stop the NG druid from hating her guts after the trees of Alfheim started dying :) The character this is designed for is currently engaged to be married to her. Anyway, I didn't feel the EoS had any particular alignment requirements. Do you? > >Feats: Alertness, Ironwill > > I'd also look into the new Forgotten Realms Living City feats at the WotC > site, specifically the sunlight adaptation feat. Yes, agreed. For the character this is being designed for, this shouldn't be necessary. He is a shadow elf, reincarnated as a surface elf. His eyes of the serpent masters think he is a good spy, although not to be trusted. He is just confused and very, very paranoid. Rest of reply next. -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 05:26:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Alignment (was Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/00 10:58:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: > ...this results in Stefan being True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. Why? > Although he "believes" that "all" should be better off, he maintains > that this can only be done under *HIS* rule, *HIS* way. This reeks of > self-interest; even if he tries to benefit others, *HE* decides how they > benefit and who "they" are. The alignments in D&D are not meant to predict a character's behavior from moment to moment. Nor are NPC descriptions meant to describe the characters in such exacting detail as to provide a perfect model of their behavior. Even if they could create such a model, just like real people, their behavior is not 100% predictable. The alignments were never meant to be rigid ethical "straightjackets", nor were the descriptions meant to be equally rigid patterns for their behavior. ~ Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:31:20 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Eyes of the serpent prestige class Comments: cc: chinnery@EECS.Berkeley.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001117080249.007ab2f0@10.1.1.1>; from lby3@LBY3.COM on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 08:02:49AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 08:02:49AM -0800, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > At 10:21 11/17/00 +0800, Glenn Butcher wrote: > > > >This is a class suitable for spies. Members of this class may be spying in > Alfheim > >prior to the shadow elf invasion, or as members of the second shadow. > > I like this prestige class in general, and I'll likely use a more final > version IMC for a major NPC. I have some problems with the current version, > though. > > >Eyes of the Serpent > >=================== > >Requirements > >------------ > > >Move Silently: 8 ranks > >Hide: 8 ranks > >Search: 4 ranks > >Bluff: 4 ranks > > I think for a spy whose main role is to infiltrate other elven groups > (which is what I recall their mission to be, although I could be wrong), > this should be higher. It's already fairly high. Remember, this is ranks not total skill level (which would be higher). It means the lowest level able to take the class is 5th, which is about right. > >Feats: Alertness, Ironwill > > I'd also look into the new Forgotten Realms Living City feats at the WotC > site, specifically the sunlight adaptation feat. Yes, good idea. Should swap ironwill for sunlight adaption. (Dave, Tesserael has no need of it). > >Hit Die: d6 > >Skills: Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, > > Intuit Direction, Jump, Ledge-Hopping, Listen, Move Silently, Search, > > Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope > > + Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Innuendo, > > Intimidate, Open Lock, Profession, Read Lips, Sense Motive > >Skill points at each level: 8 + Int modifier > > Too many. Rogues get that many skill points, but they don't get as many > class abilities as the Eyes of the Serpent do. I'd knock this down to six > or even four. And what's with the "+"? My thought exactly. Assasins and shadowdancers get 4 and 2+int respectively. All other prestige classes get 2+int. IMC, I give most classes 5 points (no int bonus) anyway. I think this should be the same. > >Level Attack Fort Ref Will Special > > Again, these are REALLY good saves. Combined with the really high skill > points, this is better than any other class. I'd make the saves be Will or > Reflex dominant, not both. Also my thought. I was going to knock it down, but I thought I'd see what the list has to say first. Reflex primary. > >memorize: The ability to memorize a short passage or conversation word for > > word. Diagrams may also be memorized. The character must understand > > what is being discussed (e.g. without some herbalism skill, it would > > be difficult to memorize the nomenclature and discussion in a > > treatise on rare life-giving herbs). > > Cool. > > >false aura: Alignment can appear to change 1 step/2 levels in Eye of the [snip] > > This is over-complicated, IMO. Why not just use the core nine alignments? > It would still be several levels before a CE Shadow Elf -- not unlikely in > the Eyes of the Serpent -- could blend in with CG surface elves. Could be. It's ok for a PC, bit of a pain for a NPC. > >hide in plain sight: As per the 1st level Shadowdancer ability. > > I don't like giving anyone but Shadowdancers this ability, although I > could certainly see the Shadow Elves having Shadowdancers. But it's one of > the abilities that defines that other prestige class, and duplicating it > for another group takes away a lot of what makes them special, IMO. It is 8th level, not 1st, but I see your point. Need to think up another ability to replace it. -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:43:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > Bargle was supposedly a low-level character too at that time. Notice = how many levels Aleena had gained in Gaz1? Well, she could be dead = too... Anyway, I'm really just teasing, you know. ;) > >> How did you know that Bargle was only a Simulacra? In The Gaz 1 = Bargle is "only" a 15Th level uman mage. I have to say, moreover, that = before the two beasts were charmed, the adventurer had fought hardly = with Bargle and therefore he was already tired when he fought the = beasts<< And Aleena is "only" a 12th level cleric. Anyway, I wasn't adressing the = simulacrum issue. But if I should, then I would say that people tend to = get suspicious, when the mage they just killed turns to snow and melts = into nothingness... Being serious for a moment, there are many, many ways that Bargle and = Aleena could have cheated death, if not with their own skills, then = through the machinations of others. And I'm sure that hated evil 15th = level mages have contingencies (no, not the spell, though that could = work too), especially for extended fights like the one you describe. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:23:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caroletti wrote: > NENTSUN AC 1000: THE INNER CIRCLE > General Description Just a little nit-picking (and nit-snipping) to go. =20 > Description: The Inner Circle is the northern part of Nentsun. It is > known also as the Nentsun Coast, as it stretches along the shores of = the > Sea of Simurgh (the name by which the Sea of Brun is known on this = side > of the ocean). Is that, uhmm, at the Thonian Marches? Or north of the Nentsun Plateaux? = Longitude 30E - 120E? Less? More? > The sea > outside Nentsun is cold, and cold currents wash its shores, making the > area not suited to fishing, I don't think that seas can become so cold as to be 'not suited for = fishing'. There are plenty of fish in the arctic, since salt water = reaches a minimum temperature well above that needed for several species = of fish to survive. The problem with fishing in the arctic is that the = land may be icebound most of the year; which would definitely be the = case for this area if not for the Unholy Devices. But the Unholy Devices = might keep the coasts mostly clear of ice (I'm not sure how they work), = and that would allow for fishing. And even if the coasts are icebound, = you can walk out on the ice, find a weaker spot, chop through it, and = fish through the hole. Not exactly an industry, but enough for some = people to get by. There would also be whales and seals that can 'breach' = the ice to breathe, and skilled hunters can lay in wait at these = breathing spots, and catch them. > Rakastas here belong to the Lynxmen stock. A small enclave of orcs > called Ondonti live in Einikushagi [see below]. Eh? They'll show up eventually, I take it... =20 > Flora and Fauna: Ash, coniferous, pastures, farmlands cover the = region, > depending on the humanoid presence and the Devices' influence. Deer, > elks, bears, lynxs, wolves live in the forests. Are there any mammoths? That would be cool. > Lynxs and dogs are kept > as domestic animals; cows, sheep and goats are among those farmed. Cattle might be a bit extreme. How about musk oxen? > No types of chicken seem to exist here. No poultry makes sense. And there aren't any pigs either, I take it? > The hilly regions of the Inner Circle are also home to a big > variety of giant worms, that sometimes pose a big threat to the = smaller > communities. What are these? Monsters you've created or an existing species of giant = worms? All right. Enough nit-picking for today. You're getting to something = useful for gaming now. That's nice. :) But Nentsun is far, far away... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:31:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: NPC Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel Mayer wrote: > After reading those hundreds of articels (o.k., I just read the = subject > of most of them), I=B4m curios what are your personal PCs. I guess = Stalker > is a kind of 6th lvl alphatian dabbler with a serious mind affecting > curse bestowed on him, thinking of himself he=B4s an archmage :) Are you asking for the PCs we play, who might be nothing like our = 'net-personas', or for stats for the 'net-personas'? My very first PC is = at Starflung (http://dnd.starflung.com/kylie.html). He's just munchkin, = though. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:22:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just a little nit-picking (and nit-snipping) to go. Sure...come on... > > Is that, uhmm, at the Thonian Marches? Or north of the Nentsun Plateaux? Longitude 30E - 120E? Less? More? I was thinking of another possibility, but I am away from my maps now (they are in another room, and I am too lazy to get them...). I'll explain it this evening. > > The sea > > outside Nentsun is cold, and cold currents wash its shores, making the > > area not suited to fishing, > > I don't think that seas can become so cold as to be 'not suited for fishing'. Yes, I knew that there was something wrong in this part, but I didn't want to bother unless someone noticed it...now I suppose I have to fix it. 8-) > > Rakastas here belong to the Lynxmen stock. A small enclave of orcs > > called Ondonti live in Einikushagi [see below]. > > > Eh? They'll show up eventually, I take it... Yes, they will show up in the description of Einikushagi > > Flora and Fauna: Ash, coniferous, pastures, farmlands cover the region, > > depending on the humanoid presence and the Devices' influence. Deer, > > elks, bears, lynxs, wolves live in the forests. > > Are there any mammoths? That would be cool. Ok. I'll put the mammoths > > Lynxs and dogs are kept > > as domestic animals; cows, sheep and goats are among those farmed. > > Cattle might be a bit extreme. How about musk oxen? Hmm....the region is not so cold...in Norway there are a lot of cows (there I met more than one crossing the streets) > > No types of chicken seem to exist here. > > No poultry makes sense. And there aren't any pigs either, I take it? No. > > The hilly regions of the Inner Circle are also home to a big > > variety of giant worms, that sometimes pose a big threat to the smaller > > communities. > > What are these? Monsters you've created or an existing species of giant worms? Well, with " a big variety" I intended that several species are present. Maybe I should re-phrase it. > All right. Enough nit-picking for today. Always nice to receive feedback. Next part is due for next friday. I don't want to overflow the list, and I want to have the chance to receive comments... > You're getting to something useful for gaming now. That's nice. :) But Nentsun is far, far away... Oh, I know. But somebody has got to work on those areas, too...and to make some use of the Master Box Map, and of minimal references in Canon...like the Afridhi... > Jacob Skytte Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:47:10 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Stefan Immortal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> I haven't received my copy of WotI yet (FINALLY won one in good condition at eBay), but is it possible someone on the Path of the Polymath might be able to grant spells somewhere along the line? << > > No. People questing for Immortalty but who have not achieved it yet do not have the ability to grant spells. Maybe not on the Path of Polymath, but possibly on the Path of Dynast (which Stefan could be concievable be on), due to the time travelling aspect of the Path. You never know, it could be Stefan as an Immortal that spoke to the Duke Stefan of Duchy Macheto and convinced him to trade his lands for those of Traladara in the first place. After all, wasn't Khoronus his own sponsor?? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:12:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description(longish) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > NENTSUN AC 1000: THE INNER CIRCLE > General Description > > Area: 366,500 kmq (143,164 sq.m) > Population: 1,076,000. > Language: Nentsunian, Rakastan (Lynxmen dialect), Ursinian. What is the population breakdown? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:41:15 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: NPC Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Hi Guys! > > After reading those hundreds of articels (o.k., I just read the subject > of most of them), I�m curios what are your personal PCs. I guess Stalker > is a kind of 6th lvl alphatian dabbler with a serious mind affecting > curse bestowed on him, thinking of himself he�s an archmage :) > > I�d love to get your specs in AD&D to use them as NPCs in my campaign. > Perhaps it�s too much for the M-L to post? But perhaps others would like > to have the specs, too. Perhaps some private spells could be shown, too. > (I would post my favorite, too...)? > > And I�m especally interested in higher-level thieves because of the > current state of my campaign (>15th lvl OD&D comparable). > > Thanks in advance > Daniel > aka Laren Nightmaster > Since the monk Paul G D now has his Butter those of you who went on the heroic quest for it, you know who you are, will have recieved the agreed upon recompence. Pity you didn't check the warranty though, and as for the reciepts, well what reciepts? Seems like they all are chits for one free bowl of egg noodles (only with full state banquet) at Wu's Hostelry in Thyatis. Now all I need is the Thyme of Seasons to complete the mystical cruet. Gullable applicant's for such a quest sought. ;^) Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:46:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:22:27 +0100 Caroletti writes: > I doubt it. The only past time when we agreed was when we planned > that > vacation in Ierendi...but then someone (Kayvid?) told us that the > beautiful girls > on the depliants are not found on the islands themselves, so we > didn't do > anything with it, either... And that discussion is archived at my website, IIRC. (Houses of Darokin: Al-Azrad House is coming. Really! I mean it this time!) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:28:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Inheritors by 3e feats: 1st attempt [LONG] In-Reply-To: <20001118190106.DB44D81D0@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As some of you have seen I have been working on methods for converting some aspects of the Savage Coast setting into 3e mechanics. I wasn't too please= d with the way Inheritors might be translated into a prestige class. Here is another optional method I have tried, by doing Inheritors in 3e mechanics via a system of feats. What follows is just an attempt and I'd like some good feedback. Maybe something similar can apply to other organizations throughout Mystara elsewhere. Who knows, maybe another feat can be made called Grand Master Inheritor, just an idea. Here goes... Let me know if I missed anything. ------------------------- OPTIONAL: INHERITOR FEATS INHERITOR ASSOCIATE: You have joined one of orders of a secret society known by non-members as the Inheritors. Prerequisites: Be sponsored, All abilities scores 9+ Benefit: Gain a second Legacy. Access to the magical substances cinnabryl, red steel, crimson essence, and smokepowder after full members are supplied. Special: As an Associate Inheritor you have certain responsibilties and privileges. Joining as an Associate is the only way for un-allowed classes to join the ranks of the Inheritors. An Associate is required to treat and recognize all Inheritors by the Code of the Orders and likewise is granted the protections offered by the Code that all Inheritors are due. INHERITOR INITIATE: You completed training for initiation into of one of the three secret societies orders known by outsiders as Inheritors. Prerequisites: Be sponsored, all ability scores 9+, only available to fighters, wizards, clerics, rogues and bards. Only available to 1st-level characters but may be chosen before the character advances another level. Benefit: Gain a second Legacy. Access to the magical substances cinnabryl, red steel, crimson essence, and smokepowder. The character has learned how to produce crimson essence in two months, instead of six months that others take to create the crimson essence. Special: An Initiate is required to treat and recognize all Inheritors by the Code of the Orders and likewise is granted the protections offered b= y the Code that all Inheritors are due. The character may complete his training and then opt out of being initiated into the ranks of the Inheritors. If this happens the character retains the second gained Legacy but loses access to the magical substances that full initiated members gain= . The character is still referred to as an Initiate INHERITOR FIGHTER ADEPT You have completed initiation into the appropriate order of Inheritors and have begun training into the responsibilities and requirements of Inheritor warriors. Inheritor warriors are the guardians and soldiers of their order= . The Inheritor warrior are charged with the duty of crafting red steel weapons and monitoring red steel trade. Prerequisite: All abilities 9+, Inheritor Initiate, Craft [redsmithing]= , 3rd level fighter. Benefit: The character has learned how to master the magic powers of Legacies and gain further Legacies every three levels starting at 3rd level (and then at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th etc.) by consuming crimson essence. At 3rd level the Inheritor warrior will now have three legacies. The Inheritor warrior also gains a +2 bonus on all skill checks with Craft [redsmithing]. Special: The character cannot take feat this multiple times. The +2 bonus on all skill checks with Craft [redmisthing] stacks with other bonuses. INHERITOR WIZARD ADEPT You have completed initiation into the appropriate order of Inheritors and have begun training into the responsibilities and requirements of Inheritor wizards. The Inheritor wizard study the Legacies themselves and can recognize manifestations at early stages. They make the potions base for crimson essence. Prerequisite: All abilities 9+, Inheritor Initiate, Alchemy, 3rd level wizard. Benefit: The character has learned how to master the magic powers of Legacies and gain further Legacies every three levels starting at 3rd level (and then at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th etc.) by consuming crimson essence. At 3rd level the Inheritor wizard will now have three legacies. The Inheritor wizard also gains a +2 bonus on all skill checks with Alchemy. Special: The character cannot take feat this multiple times. The +2 bonus on all skill checks with Alchemy stacks with other bonuses. INHERITOR ROGUE ADEPT You have completed initiation into the appropriate order of Inheritors and have begun training into the responsibilities and requirements of Inheritor rogues. Inheritor rogues are given the duties of acquisitions and covert missions for their order, often =B3collecting=B2 cinnabryl or red steel from it= s possessors without their knowledge. The job of crafting cinnabryl talisman= s also falls to an order=B9s rogues. Inheritor rogues, along with Inheritor bards are involved in distributing potion base and talismans to Inheritors in regions without an Inheritor headquarters. Prerequisite: All abilities 9+, Inheritor Initiate, Disguise, 3rd level rogue. Benefit: The character has learned how to master the magic powers of Legacies and gain further Legacies every three levels starting at 3rd level (and then at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th etc.) by consuming crimson essence. At 3rd level the Inheritor rogue will now have three legacies. The Inheritor rogue also gains a +2 bonus on all skill checks with Disguise. Special: The character cannot take feat this multiple times. The +2 bonus on all skill checks with Disguise stacks with other bonuses. INHERITOR BARD ADEPT You have completed initiation into the appropriate order of Inheritors and have begun training into the responsibilities and requirements of Inheritor bards. Inheritor bards are responsible for circulating information such as Conclave news to members of the various orders. Inheritor bards also perform the ceremony that completes initiation of new members into the rank= s of the order and reports the initiation to the order=B9s clerics. Inheritor bards, along with Inheritor rogues are involved in distributing potion base and talismans to Inheritors in regions without an Inheritor headquarters. Prerequisite: All abilities 9+, Inheritor Initiate, Gather Information, 3rd level bard. Benefit: The character has learned how to master the magic powers of Legacies and gain further Legacies every three levels starting at 3rd level (and then at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th etc.) by consuming crimson essence. At 3rd level the Inheritor bard will now have three legacies. The Inheritor bard also gains a +2 bonus on all skill checks with Gathe= r Information. Special: The character cannot take feat this multiple times. The +2 bonus on all skill checks with Gather Information stacks with other bonuses= . INHERITOR CLERIC ADEPT You have completed initiation into the appropriate order of Inheritors and have begun training into the responsibilities and requirements of Inheritor clerics. Inheritor clerics are the historians and record keepers of the orders. They keep track of members, associate members and their Legacies; the number of available talismans, amulets, and crimson essence potions; an= d the rules and strictures of the orders. Clerics make up the bureaucracy of each order, each serving in a semi-official capacity. Clerics are often mediators in minor local conflicts within orders. Prerequisite: All abilities 9+, Inheritor Initiate, Knowledge [legacy], 3rd level cleric. Benefit: The character has learned how to master the magic powers of Legacies and gain further Legacies every three levels starting at 3rd level (and then at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th etc.) by consuming crimson essence. At 3rd level the Inheritor cleric will now have three legacies. The Inheritor cleric also gains a +2 bonus on all skill checks with Knowledge [legacy]. Special: The character cannot take feat this multiple times. The +2 bonus on all skill checks with Knowledge [legacy] stacks with other bonuses= . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:49:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: <20001118160201.7572D8136@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Here is an update of the gaucho prestige class I offered recently. I'm still looking for feedback on this attempt. Am I missing something that should be included? Would including any more begin making this p. class to tough? Etc. Some things I did are obvious, I changed the name. I also shrunk the list of the available feats for the legendary gaucho. I added lasso to the list of weapons which the legendary gaucho is proficient in. Anything else I miss? Here is the update... ------------------------------- LEGENDARY GAUCHO - Hit Dice d10 Lvl Attack Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Horse control, Bonus Feat 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Canny aim +1d10 3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Bonus Feat, Mounted Marksmanship +1d10 4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Rapid Reload 5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat 6 +6 +5 +5 +2 Canny aim +2d10 7 +7 +5 +5 +2 Bonus Feat 8 +8 +6 +6 +2 Mounted Marksmanship +2d10 9 +9 +6 +6 +3 Bonus Feat 10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Canny aim +3d10 REQUIREMENTS HOMELAND: Must be a resident of the Savage Baronies RIDE: 8 ranks FEATS: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Track, Proficiency (bola, dagger= , firearms) SPECIAL: Must purchase a light horse or light warhorse; and receive a riding saddle, saddle blanket, bit and bridle, horseshoes, and saddlebags without expenditure. A legendary gaucho never own horses larger than the light horse or light warhorse. The legendary gaucho must also purchase bolas, a dagger and a pistol. SPECIAL: The legendary gaucho must have wagered his entire fortune in a game of chance at least once before becoming a legendary gaucho. Whether i= t was lost or not does not matter. There must have been a real chance of losing it, and not a rigged game. CLASS SKILLS Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier Animal Empathy (Cha) Bluff (Cha) Craft (Blacksmith) (Int) Craft (Leatherworking)(Int) Craft (Trapmaking)(Int) Craft (Weaponsmithing, Crude)(Int) Handle Animal (Cha) Intimidate (Cha) Intuit Direction (Wis) Listen (Wis) Ride (Dex) Search(Int) Spot (Wis) Use Rope (Dex) Wilderness Lore (Wis) CLASS FEATURES WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY: Legendary gauchos are proficient with the following weapons: Bola, club, dagger, dart, firearms(pistol), hand axe, javelin,lasso, light lance, light pick, light flail, light mace, sabre, sap= , throwing axe, and whip. The gaucho is proficient in light armor. Legendar= y gauchos are not proficient in shield. Pistols are not effective outside th= e Haze, where the smokepowder loses its magical effect. BONUS FEAT: At second level and every two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th and 10th) the legendary gaucho gains a new feat. These bonus feats mus= t be drawn from the following list: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quickdraw, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Trample, Weapon Finesse (bola, pistol or whip; choose one), Weapon Focus (bola, pistol or whip; choose one). CANNY AIM: At 2nd level, the legendary gaucho gains the extraordinary ability to hit precisely with a shot from his pistol, gaining a bonus of +1d10 points of damage added to his normal damage roll. When using his canny aim, the legendary gaucho cannot attack with a weapon in his other hand and also suffers a -4 penalty on all Reflex checks that round and cannot rapid reload after firing. Like critical hits and sneak attacks, th= e uncanny aim is ineffective against constructs, undead, and oozes; unlike critical hits and sneak attacks, fortified armor is effected. Every four legendary gaucho levels gained thereafter, he increases the extra damage by +1d10. If the legendary gaucho also has the rogue=B9s sneak attack ability, the canny aim stacks with the sneak attack damage. Canny aim is only effective if the legendary gaucho is not in armor heavier than light armor, and unmounted. HORSE CONTROL: The legendary gaucho can control a light horse in battle as if the horse was a trained warhorse. Horse control also gives the legendary gaucho a +4 competance bonus to all ride checks. MOUNTED MARKSMANSHIP: At 3rd level, the legendary gaucho gains the extraordinary ability to hit precisely with a shot from his pistol while mounted on his horse, gaining a bonus of +1d10 points of damage added to hi= s normal damage roll. When using his mounted marksmanship skill, the legendary gaucho cannot attack with a weapon in his other hand and also suffers a -4 penalty on all Reflex checks and cannot rapid reload after firing. Further, the penalty the legendary gaucho suffers when using his pistol from horseback is halved; -2 instead of -4 if the horse is taking a double move, and -4 instead of -8 if the horse is running. The legendary gaucho increases his extra damage by another +1d10 at level 8. Like critical hits and sneak attacks, the mounted marksmanship extra damage is ineffective against constructs, undead, and oozes; unlike critical hits and sneak attacks, fortified armor is effected. Mounted marksmanship does not stack with a rogue=B9s sneak attack like canny aim will. The legendary gauch= o cannot use his mounted marksmanship if the he is in armor heavier than ligh= t armor. RAPID RELOAD: The legendary gaucho has learned how to reload his pistol fast enough that he no longer needs to spend a standard action reloading it= . This applies only to his own pistol, but after firing ten shots with an unfamiliar pistol the legendary gaucho can also apply rapid reload to that specific new pistol. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:29:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: NPC Request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:50:31 Daniel Mayer wrote: >Hi Guys! > >After reading those hundreds of articels (o.k., I just read the subject >of most of them), I4m curios what are your personal PCs. I guess Stalker >is a kind of 6th lvl alphatian dabbler with a serious mind affecting >curse bestowed on him, thinking of himself he4s an archmage :) > LOL - you wish! ;) Yes, he is indeed my old PC, but since I've been the DM for last several years, he's been 'demoted' to a favorite NPC IMC. The PCs still run into him only ever so rarely though... We're currently playing WOTI and have reached the summer of AC 1,007, but it's been a year since they last saw him. At the time he was a 15th-level Alphatian mage. Given the wars that are still ahead of him, I guess he'd gain several levels by the end of the war... if he survives that is! I have no plans of killing him off, but you never know - if it suits my plots better, he probably won't survive after all! After all, nothing scares the players more than when they see an NPC they thought was invincible (because the DM likes him) die! :) >I4d love to get your specs in AD&D to use them as NPCs in my campaign. >Perhaps it4s too much for the M-L to post? But perhaps others would like >to have the specs, too. Perhaps some private spells could be shown, too. >(I would post my favorite, too...)? > Well... I don't know. Stalker is a pretty mysterious and secretive guy... Besides, I play with 2e PO rules, so he'll probably look extremely munchkin in many campaigns (my PCs and NPCs, friendly and otherwise, do too, though! Particularly the villains, because I don't mind abusing the rules to my advantage). Feel free to mail me on the subject off-list, though. >And I4m especally interested in higher-level thieves because of the >current state of my campaign (>15th lvl OD&D comparable). > I have a high-leveled Darokinian thief NPC IMC known only as 'Shadow' - she's (yes, it's a woman!) a 12th-level thief... Naturally, she's a 2e PO character too, though. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:30:37 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani Subject: Re: Bargle Death (perhaps...) Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Sat, 18 November 2000, Jacob Skytte ha scritto: > And Aleena is "only" a 12th level cleric. Anyway, I wasn't adressing the simulacrum issue. But if I should, then I would say that people tend to get suspicious, when the mage they just killed turns to snow and melts into nothingness... > > Being serious for a moment, there are many, many ways that Bargle and Aleena could have cheated death, if not with their own skills, then through the machinations of others. And I'm sure that hated evil 15th level mages have contingencies (no, not the spell, though that could work too), especially for extended fights like the one you describe. > > Jacob Skytte Now that i think to that, I can't be sure that Bargle is really dead..... (I haven't buried his corpse). I can only tell you what my PC have done and seen, but sincerely, I hope that he is dead, because he is not, he would be very angry with us.... I should ask my DM for what she is planning for the future... :-) Leonardo "Damon Whiteblade" Giuliani AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:35:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:22:27 Caroletti wrote: >> >> >- An amused Ex-Glantri-now-Karameikos-Wizard sits down to watch two >> >overconfident and stupid people of magic and arms to hack themthelves >> >down with words. Always a pleasure to watch :) > >Well, one day or another I am going to take out all the mails of past >conflicts between me and the Stalker and send them again...although there >are probably several members of the list who are tired of these tongue-in- >-cheek verbal fights...on my part, I sometimes laugh myself to tears... > I'd say 'me too', but then 'me too' posts aren't allowed on the list, so I won't... It's what I'd mean to say, though ;) >> - His sympathy so long >> >goes with the supposedly stupid one of Thyatis, who remembers him of an >> >old friend Paladin. > >See, Stalker? "Supposedly"... > Remains to be seen, though! ;) >> Well, you'd better! If you keep watching us like that, are you *sure* that we won't get so grumpy that we'll decide to work *together* to teach you a lesson?? No? You're probably right... :) > >I doubt it. The only past time when we agreed was when we planned that >vacation in Ierendi...but then someone (Kayvid?) told us that the beautiful girls >on the depliants are not found on the islands themselves, so we didn't do >anything with it, either... And besides, Arogansa's beaches are now GONE! What is Mystara coming to?! :( btw, I believe we also agreed that we don't trust Glantrians, IIRC ;) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:39:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: NPC Request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:41:15 Paul George Dooley wrote: (snip) > Since the monk Paul G D now has his Butter those of you who went on the >heroic quest for it, you know who you are, will have recieved the agreed >upon recompence. Pity you didn't check the warranty though, and as for the >reciepts, well what reciepts? Seems like they all are chits for one free >bowl of egg noodles (only with full state banquet) at Wu's Hostelry in >Thyatis. Now all I need is the Thyme of Seasons to complete the mystical >cruet. Gullable applicant's for such a quest sought. ;^) > Grrrr - "Anger not an Alphatian wizard for you look like easy prey, and I need target practice with my fireballs!" ;) - Stalker, the humorless! Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:03:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:46:07 Aaron E Nowack wrote: >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:22:27 +0100 Caroletti writes: >> I doubt it. The only past time when we agreed was when we planned >> that >> vacation in Ierendi...but then someone (Kayvid?) told us that the >> beautiful girls >> on the depliants are not found on the islands themselves, so we >> didn't do >> anything with it, either... > >And that discussion is archived at my website, IIRC. > Where is that, if I may be so bold? I was so amused by the idea that I just had to see it myself (I'm an Alphatian wizard, so I don't know what I say half the time, as I'm sure Captain Scaevola would agree :) ). However, when I tried to look in the 'basement' (where I get the feeling the MML related stuff was), I was told that the page couldn't be found :( - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:33:40 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: The Hollow World hoax? In-Reply-To: <20001119011320.EF28F811E@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In Joshuan's Almanac (for year AC 1013) was an entry about the Hollow World being a hoax. Does Joshuan still regard the Hollow World as a hoax in later almanacs? Was there an event in later almanacs which changed his opinion? Or is it the collective opinion of the list that Joshuan's essay on the Hollow World hoax is hog wash itself? Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:07:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The Hollow World hoax? >> In Joshuan's Almanac (for year AC 1013) was an entry about the Hollow Worldbeing a hoax. Does Joshuan still regard the Hollow World as a hoax in later almanacs? Was there an event in later almanacs which changed his opinion? << In MA 1014 it's revealed that he was mistaken. The return of the Karameikan expedition that was sent to the HW from there is, I think, the reason given for his change of mind. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:40:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- GeneralDescription(longish) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Population: 1,076,000. > > Language: Nentsunian, Rakastan (Lynxmen dialect), Ursinian. > > What is the population breakdown? > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta I haven't finished to write the atlas, so I have not decided the exact breakdown of the country. However, when I will finish the work I will provide Shawn with an updated and revised version, based on the comments I receive on the list. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:21:35 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: NPC Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Grrrr - "Anger not an Alphatian wizard for you look like easy prey, and I need target practice with my fireballs!" ;) > Fireballing the Mystical Butter! You know of course, "This means WAR!". Apologise at one or I come over there and slap you silly, in a mystical way of course! ;^) Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:44:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: NPC Request In-Reply-To: ; from alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 01:29:50AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 01:29:50AM +0100, The Stalker wrote: > Well... I don't know. Stalker is a pretty mysterious and secretive guy... Does The Stalker have a real name? I need a name for the leader of the Alphatians who have currently conquered Boldavia and are marching on the rest of Glantri IMC... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dylan Gault Subject: Re: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maybe this is a little late, since I was a little swamped when the original gaucho class came by. The only concern that I have is that the Gaucho's mount might have to be replaced a lot. There seems to be no advancement range for horses, so the horse is stuck with the hitpoints and abilities that it starts with. I would like to see some abilities along the lines of the Cavalryman discipline from the Earthdawn RPG. As the Cavalryman went up levels, he added hit points and abilities to his horse as well as himself. Instead of the Bonus Feats, why not add something like these: Advanced Mount: Beginning at first level, the Gaucho must form a special bond with a light riding horse, light warhorse, or similarly light and fast riding animal. The bond is not unlike that of a wizard and her familiar. The Gaucho and his mount enjoy several benefits. Now the next part you could write up like the familiar abilities, but I'll be brief about it: +1 natural armor/gaucho level, alertness bonus to the gaucho when mounted, +1 HD/gaucho level, at 5th level, the gaucho and the mount can share damage (ie. they can trade it back and forth, with penalties to the gaucho if he uses this to kill the mount (he becomes an ex-gaucho)), share base saving throws (rider and mount gets to use the better base save, if rider is mounted), if the character has the ablity to summon a familiar, and does not have one, the character may make the mount his familiar as well (but powers based on level are not calculated with gaucho level, only wiz/sor levels). Maybe that's all a bit too magical, but Mystara has a lot of magic floating around in the air. Especially in the Savage Coast. With this addition, you would see a lot more paladins wanting to become Gaucho's, though it's unlikely that too many paladins gamble heaviliy enough to become a gaucho. (You might make an exception to the pre-requisites that allows the paladin to have gambled everything but her holy symbol, unless the bet is to another member of her church. Same with clerics.) DId I say I would be brief? Dylan G ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:13:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: <20001119150226.DKMC10530.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@oemcomp uter> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:07 11/19/00 -0500, Dylan Gault wrote: >Maybe this is a little late, since I was a little swamped when the >original gaucho class came by. The only concern that I have is that >the Gaucho's mount might have to be replaced a lot. There seems >to be no advancement range for horses, so the horse is stuck with >the hitpoints and abilities that it starts with. Huh. There is no advancement for them in the 3E MM. Weird. I'd suggest that they advance like a paladin's warhorse in terms of hit dice, attack bonus and saves only. (No intelligence or mystical abilities.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:28:05 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >> But if all continues to go to plan he will by a > hero to > history. I don't think he needs to rewrite anything. > << > > If all goes according to plan, Hosadus will go down > in history as a hero too, for the same reasons. Hosadus's enemy's = most of the world. Stefan's enemy's = an already conquered people, and only the ones that are stupid and stuck in the past so cannot see potential for future in what is there and seek to restore the glory of the past which even if stefan is defeated isn't going to happen. Chances are things will get worse (at least in my opinion, cause power strugles are nasty). Regardless of who's nicer I think stefan has a better hope to become a hero. And even if it collaspes after him I think his name will live. (can you say Alexandria anyone?) Stefan is more likely to die naturally and be remembered, Hosadus is more likely to be killed and Loki move on(after reaping some havoc). Hosadus is already a hulean hero I don't think it is his current deads he will be most remembered for. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:43:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan Comparison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Evil Genius wrote: > A couple of characters Stefan reminds me of, in > addition to the Master of Hule (with his "vision"): These are examples, and you try to conclude a rule. But you forget when there is a rule there is always exceptions. I argue only because I can agree with canon where stefan IS listed as lawful. I therefore read his actions as having the intent of a lawful person. You contradict directly canon where it is posible to reconcile with it. What is wrong with stefan being lawful or good, do you see it as a physical imposibility? Or do you just dislike the idea. I can continue to refute these claims and offer "canon" examples of how I see stefan being played as lawful as well as arguements why these arguements of binary opossitions are futile and how alignments are but a guide to how to play the person not a difinitive description so it does not really tell us anything about intent. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:05:27 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: <20001119193158.CEA6B830F@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dylan: >> Maybe this is a little late, since I was a little swamped when the >> original gaucho class came by. The only concern that I have is that >> the Gaucho's mount might have to be replaced a lot. There seems >> to be no advancement range for horses, so the horse is stuck with >> the hitpoints and abilities that it starts with. Beau: > Huh. There is no advancement for them in the 3E MM. Weird. I'd suggest > that they advance like a paladin's warhorse in terms of hit dice, attack > bonus and saves only. (No intelligence or mystical abilities.) Well, I did consider doing something like a paladin's bonded mount type thing. My main reason for not including it was that the Savage Coast setting already had a character kit based on it's bond with a mount, the Beast Rider. Of course, it is a more savage archetype. I'm not a "western" aficionado, but I felt that the kind of relationship with the horse and rider that a paladin has is a rare thing for a cowboy. With it being a rarer event the few gauchos with that kind of relationship with their horse would probably be paladins anyway. I do realize that it leaves the gaucho with the hindrance of having to replace his mount frequently, but figured that wasn't something took away anything from the "cowboy archetype" I dunno, I didn't want to do to many things that might take away any incentive to play another class. Of course, maybe something could be put in about having a knack for evaluating horse quality that gives him a bonus for when he needs to buy one the horse is of greater quality than average? Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:11:02 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Well, I actually like the image of Stefan as a > narcassist. > Nothing wrong with having a ruler like him, he's not > a goody goody which makes things much more fun... And this is based on how you play him, but canon can be interpereted differently as I recall no canon sorse calling him a narcassist and if he was intended to be I think they would have. I therefore would be inclined to say that your Mystara is a variation that is "non-canon" (but good for you, variation is all good) > Marlinev was under Thyatian control, the rest of > the country wasn't really. Sure it would say on a > map that Traladara was part of Thyatis, but to > the people of Traladara, there would be little > influence in their daily lives. > > That changed when Stefan arrived. did it? really? I'm wondering how (other then in Halag) because I don't see it making a lot of difference who the basted overlord is. Their still working the feilds and the kitchens. Stefan opened up Taraldra and this enables trade witch enables more luxuries and wealth. I would say this is better for people. > > (which usually does little good.) Change for the > > better from the inside is usually more effective. > > I dunno about that, surely you can change things > by marching in, abusing the locals and changing > everyone to your way of thinking. That's what Stefan > did after all...or would you suggest that if he > had worked from the inside, with the Traladaran > leaders, that the change for the better would > be more effective? Thats what I thought was the arguement. If Stefan had worked from within things would have been better for the country. But Yes you can just march in and take control, but that takes a lot of mussle, money and organisation which was far easier and less draining in medieval society. Better for you the conquerer, but more resentment from everyone else even if you do know better. > > Why did they rebel, they didn't give him a chance > to > > my understanding. > > Hmm, perhaps the people of Sind should give the > Master some time before complaining about their > current situation. I think the people of sind are more likely to suffer and die from the conquest then the taraldarians ever were. Remember sind's population is dirt poor. > Most people in the world, from what I've seen, > tend to be reasonably patriotic. Even while > slaggin off and complaining of our homes, we > still consider them *our* homes, and if someone > was to suggest coming in and taking over and > fixing things, we'd probably not agree too much. Just remember we have T.V's and are much better educated then the medieval peasant and have a lot more to lose. Our countrys are thus far more important to us then they would be to a peasant. I just suspect ther wouldn't be *as* much resentment. > Did that make any sense? Lot's of sence thanks. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:13:34 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:05 11/19/00 -0600, Eric Anondson wrote: >Beau: >> Huh. There is no advancement for them in the 3E MM. Weird. I'd suggest >> that they advance like a paladin's warhorse in terms of hit dice, attack >> bonus and saves only. (No intelligence or mystical abilities.) > >I'm not a "western" aficionado, but I felt that the kind of relationship >with the horse and rider that a paladin has is a rare thing for a cowboy. >With it being a rarer event the few gauchos with that kind of relationship >with their horse would probably be paladins anyway. I do realize that it >leaves the gaucho with the hindrance of having to replace his mount >frequently, but figured that wasn't something took away anything from the >"cowboy archetype" > >I dunno, I didn't want to do to many things that might take away any >incentive to play another class. Extremely good argument. I withdraw my suggestion. Hell, how many Western heroes in fiction DO have to replace their horses on a regular basis? (This Gaucho is no more of a real world character group than any of the characters of Western fiction.) That was a central element in many stories. Now, if you wanted to breed a faster light warhorse, and have the Legendary Gauchos sell them to others they felt were "worthy" from their private ranch breeding pools, you might be on to something. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:51:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >> Believing is not the same as doing. I'm sure > Hosadus believes he is > doing good too. << Hosadus believes in an entropic god being good -therefore evil. If Stefan believes in himself and he is good, he believes in good. (but if you think he is evil then he is the same as hosadus, but I belive he is good) Belief in one's self is not automatically evil. > And Hosadus didn't unleash his nasty cousin on the > people of Sind. Indeed, when Hosadus recognized that > Kitan ul-Nervi wasn't working out as ruler of Sind, > he replaced him quickly with Chandra. A mistake that I'm sure he regrets. > Thus we can see that in actuality, by observable > deed, Hosadus has shown more concern for insuring > proper government in Sind than Stefan has in > Karameikos. . . He is not there to clean up any mess himself and so has to reley much more on other people as his empire is far more vast. The details are more important. Besides sind is bigger then all Karameilos > Stefan's Sycophant's definition of "legitimate" > seems to be "Stefan is legitimate, everyone else is > illigitimate by comparison, thus it is proper for > Stefan to displace anyone he wants, and it is a > legitimate act." I next expect them to claim that it > would be legitimate for Stefan to simply sieze > Machetos at the first opportunity or turn the WDL > into a Karameikan Empire. This is actually sort of > the Chaotic Evil theory of power. He who has the gold makes the rules. be they ligitimate or not. This is the case in with all rulers, especally in a not democracy. No Noble is just going to role over and say, here take all my stuff, I'd rather not be rich. It is the rules that they make that I would use as a basis of alignment not their rulings because rulings themselves are far more dependant on situation then the ideals of a person and we DO NOT know all the motivators. I still say stefan would NOT act as seggested above in canon, but he is welcome to in your campaign. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:58:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of > Traladara, if that was > a feasible solution. > -- Isn't that what he did? He sold it to stefan. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:30:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > > > Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of > > Traladara, if that was > > a feasible solution. > > -- > Isn't that what he did? He sold it to stefan. No. That was the land, not the title. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:27:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > This reeks of > self-interest; even if he tries to benefit others, > *HE* decides how they > benefit and who "they" are. Self-interest is not just an evil trait. > > In my campaign he is Lawful, and if I played AD&D > good > > too. > > > By your interpretation of the alignments above, he > is True Neutral. I can understand how you see that but I still see it as His interest is public, but can only be though himself. therefore good because of concern for others, neutral if he seaked balance. > Traladaran rulers in their own country weren't > legitimate?! What is your > definition of legitimate? They could have been ligitimate but there is no evidence that they wern't tyrants either, because WE DO NOT KNOW. It is now Stefan's country yet you call him illigitimate. Your definition needs questioning too. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:33:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > Marlinev was under Thyatian control, the rest of > > the country wasn't really. Sure it would say on a > > map that Traladara was part of Thyatis, but to > > the people of Traladara, there would be little > > influence in their daily lives. > > > > That changed when Stefan arrived. > > did it? really? I'm wondering how (other then in > Halag) because I don't see it making a lot of > difference who the basted overlord is. Their still > working the feilds and the kitchens. Stefan opened up > Taraldra and this enables trade witch enables more > luxuries and wealth. I would say this is better for > people. Actually, many people lost their lands to the thyatian followers of Stefan. Look at the History of Karameikos section, under the growth of Karameikos: it says that the Thyatians used false documents to get the traladarans' lands. Later, it says that Kelvin wasn't involved, but the Davinos adventure states that many traladarans' holdings were destroyed. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:33:35 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > If Stefan believes in himself and he is good, he > believes in good. (but if you think he is evil then he > is the same as hosadus, but I belive he is good) > > Belief in one's self is not automatically evil. Nor it is automatically good. Especially, it is definitely not Lawful. > > This is actually sort of > > the Chaotic Evil theory of power. > > He who has the gold makes the rules. be they > ligitimate or not. But one can't claim it to be LG behaviour. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:32:55 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > I think the people of sind are more likely to suffer > and die from the conquest then the taraldarians ever > were. Remember sind's population is dirt poor. > And that didn't change after the Master took control. Whereas Traladarans had their property stolen from them by Stefan and his cronies. So relatively speaking, the people of Sind came out better off than the people of Traladara. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:39:00 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > Self-interest is not just an evil trait. > Nor is it a Lawful Good trait. > I can understand how you see that but I still see it > as His interest is public, but can only be though > himself. therefore good because of concern for others, > neutral if he seaked balance. > He has concern for others only when it doesn't interfere with his own interests. That's what Neutral (on a good-evil axis) people do. > > Traladaran rulers in their own country weren't > > legitimate?! What is your > > definition of legitimate? > > They could have been ligitimate but there is no > evidence that they wern't tyrants either, because WE Whether they were tyrants or not has no bearing on their legitimacy. > DO NOT KNOW. It is now Stefan's country yet you call > him illigitimate. Your definition needs questioning too. > Okay. By that reasoning, if Thyatis now invades Karameikos, conquers it, and executes Stefan, then the Emperor of Thyatis will become the legitimate ruler of Karameikos and nobody should complain. Well, it's one possible view (one that you espouse). And by the way, I never called Stefan illegitimate, I just questioned your insistence that the old Traladaran rulers weren't legitimate. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:54:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > ...but he keeps it from himself playing the happy > mate of Thincol for years in > order to protect his territory, and then when > Thincol needs him (and, more > important, his motherland needs his help), he turns > his back to him... Thytis didn't need him that much and it wasn't his war (although some will argue). If he had helped what good would have come? Insted when alphatia sinks he is at full strength to send aid to thytis > > and did his best to make > > new allies and try to prevent Thyatis from ever > attacking his new land. Wouldn't you? > Only when it's clear that Thyatis is losing the war > > I think that TSR and Allston simply failed to give > good explanations for > Stephan's character, motivations and how he > accomplishes things. Stephan is > one of the worse characters of the setting, and the > way it is portrayed, there are > only two possibilities: > 1) he is a total incompetent who doesn't understand > the > consiquences of what he is doing, and is manouvered > by his wife, > 2) he is a cleric of Bozdogan. I disagree, you try conquering a kingdom, and bhave your family and allies decieve you constantly. Because he is so "good" he does not understand "bad" and this is the problem. He trusts where he shouldn't, and this is how he is portrayed in canon, so that is the way he is. Grand dreams, born into power, folish in it's execution. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:54:38 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The Stalker > > Sorry, I know it's heresy! Feign Death is a 3rd-level AD&D (2e) wizard spell > that immediately lets the caster fall into a state that is completely > indistinguishable from actual death (except for the use of spells such as > Detect Life...). Given that a fighter from (by AC 1,000) magic-poor > Karameikos was the hero, I doubt he would have heard of it... I guess the real question is whether such a spell would save anyone against a foe who is sufficiently ticked off that he might administer a coup-de-grace anyway (and then top it off by hacking the body to pieces and then burning the pieces -- much as one might do with a regenerating troll). I suppose that this trick just might work once -- but you can be sure that the next time around Bargle's foe will give the "dead" Bargle the troll treatment. I think that this possibility is one reason that 3E dropped the Feign Death spell completely -- it presupposes a certain degree of respect for corpses to be of any benefit. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:54:39 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan Immortal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Leonardo Damon Giuliani > > Anybody of you know if Stefan is making (or will make) a quest to become > immortal? He is nowhere near high enough in level to do that any time soon. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:25:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caroletti wrote: > > > > Is that, uhmm, at the Thonian Marches? Or north of the Nentsun = Plateaux? Longitude 30E - 120E? Less? More? >=20 > I was thinking of another possibility, but I am away from my maps now = (they > are in another room, and I am too lazy to get them...). I'll explain = it this > evening. Shape up, Captain! Where's you sense of military discipline? Go get = those maps right away! ;) =20 > > Cattle might be a bit extreme. How about musk oxen? >=20 > Hmm....the region is not so cold...in Norway there are a lot of cows > (there I met more than one crossing the streets) Oh, you were thinking Norway? I guess that once cattle were imported to = Nentsun, they might survive. I'm still not sure what effect those Unholy = Devices have... How about Hairy Cattle? ;) And, lest people think Norway = is a hick nation, I take it you didn't meet any cattle crossing the = streets of Oslo? > > > The hilly regions of the Inner Circle are also home to a big > > > variety of giant worms, that sometimes pose a big threat to the = smaller > > > communities. > > > > What are these? Monsters you've created or an existing species of = giant worms? >=20 > Well, with " a big variety" I intended that several species are = present. Maybe I > should re-phrase it. Phrasing it 'home to several species of giant worms' would make more = sense, then. I thought you meant larger-than-average giant worms... =20 > > You're getting to something useful for gaming now. That's nice. :) = But Nentsun is far, far away... >=20 > Oh, I know. But somebody has got to work on those areas, too...and to = make > some use of the Master Box Map, and of minimal references in = Canon...like > the Afridhi... Better you than me, then... :) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:22:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:54 11/19/00 EST, David Knott wrote: >I suppose that this trick just might work once -- but you can be sure >that the next time around Bargle's foe will give the "dead" Bargle the >troll treatment. I think that this possibility is one reason that 3E >dropped the Feign Death spell completely -- it presupposes a >certain degree of respect for corpses to be of any benefit. Or, at least, that you'll have better things to do than go around whacking on apparently dead guys when there's a chance wandering monsters will be kicking down the door any second, brought there by the noise of combat. Personally, I'm hoping that WotC is planning on bringing back the remaining PHB spells in their Wizard/Sorcerer book. Sure, they're less-popular than the core spells (although I suspect I was the only person who ever used Glitterdust in 2E), but surely they have SOME utility. (Protection from Cantrips, which is redone IMC as Protection from Prestidigitation, is a must for wizards with apprentices, for instance.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:39:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Fall of Alfheim... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMC we're now reaching the time in AC 1,007 when Alfheim is about to fall to the invasion of the Shadowelves... So, I have two things to ask people on the list: 1) Can anybody remember which clans go north to Wendar and which go south to Karameikos? Since Doriath goes north, I assume Clan Erendyl goes north, and I think Clan Chossum goes south... I pieced together who went where from clues in subsequent Almanacs (PWAs, the JA, and even the MAs), but now I can't find it, obviously... 2) Does anybody have adventures or ideas for adventures for this? I have two elves in the group, though only one is truly from Alfheim (the other lives in Darokin, fairly close to the border), but the Alfheim elf is a new character IMC... I think I'll have them escort the elves fleeing south, but I'm not going to sit down and work it all out myself if somebody has something excellent lying around (yes, I'm that lazy)... Thanks in advance... - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:57:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: New site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi from Nadia and Renato There are many months that we don't write to MML but we reading always the message on the list. We write for to say that we made a website with texts and images made by us. The site is in Italian but some text are translated in English. The URL is http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.htlm PS: This site isn't "canon" and is simply that we wrote for our campaign. Nadia&Renato ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:04:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: NPC Request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:44:59 Gordon McCormick wrote: >On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 01:29:50AM +0100, The Stalker wrote: > >> Well... I don't know. Stalker is a pretty mysterious and secretive guy... > >Does The Stalker have a real name? I need a name for the leader >of the Alphatians who have currently conquered Boldavia and are >marching on the rest of Glantri IMC... > Of course he does, but I doubt he'd suit you for this matter - it doesn't sound very much IC for him, though(according to how I've played him anyway), so I think you might be slightly disappointed... Besides, I kind of like his anonymous existence on this list :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:09:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Bargle Death Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:54:38 David Knott wrote: >From: The Stalker >> >> Sorry, I know it's heresy! Feign Death is a 3rd-level AD&D (2e) wizard >spell >> that immediately lets the caster fall into a state that is completely >> indistinguishable from actual death (except for the use of spells such as >> Detect Life...). Given that a fighter from (by AC 1,000) magic-poor >> Karameikos was the hero, I doubt he would have heard of it... > >I guess the real question is whether such a spell would save anyone >against a foe who is sufficiently ticked off that he might administer a >coup-de-grace anyway (and then top it off by hacking the body to >pieces and then burning the pieces -- much as one might do with a >regenerating troll). > Of course it wouldn't. >I suppose that this trick just might work once That's all Bargle would need :) > -- but you can be sure >that the next time around Bargle's foe will give the "dead" Bargle the >troll treatment. Probably. > I think that this possibility is one reason that 3E >dropped the Feign Death spell completely -- it presupposes a >certain degree of respect for corpses to be of any benefit. > LOL. This implies, naturally, that PCs have no such respect for the dead... I think I agree :) Then again, it's like my old Greyhawk DM always said - about 90% of all good role-playing is based firmly on the old and honorable tradition of looting corpses! :) I hadn't noticed myself that Feign Death was missing in 3e, but it doesn't surprise me - it's a somewhat useless spell for just the reasons you describe. I mean, how many of us bothered to learn it, let alone actually use it when we play mages ?? I certainly didn't, and I've played a number of mages in my time. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:19:49 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Eyes of the serpent prestige class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Glenn Butcher > > > >Eyes of the Serpent > > >=================== > > >Requirements > > >------------ > > >Alignment: Any > > > > Really? > > Yes. When I read (and reread) the SE gaz, I didn't see anything that made > me think the shadow elves were, say, evil. Compare the description of > their daily life to drow. That is true for Shadow Elves in general, but the Eyes of the Serpent appear (in Gaz 13 at least) to be devoted to the "Feathered Serpent", namely the Entropic Immortal Atzanteotl. There is also a note in that gazetteer to the effect that devout followers of Rafiel are not generally accepted into this organization. Thus, while I would agree that Shadow Elves in general are not evil, the Eyes of the Serpent certainly are of evil alignment for the most part. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:19:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Inheritors by 3e feats: 1st attempt [LONG] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Anondson > > INHERITOR ASSOCIATE: > You have joined one of orders of a secret society known by non-members as > the Inheritors. > Prerequisites: Be sponsored, All abilities scores 9+ Additional prerequisite: One Legacy. > INHERITOR INITIATE: > You completed training for initiation into of one of the three secret > societies orders known by outsiders as Inheritors. > Prerequisites: Be sponsored, all ability scores 9+, only available to > fighters, wizards, clerics, rogues and bards. Only available to 1st-level > characters but may be chosen before the character advances another level. The class and level restrictions are a holdover from the 2E rules that seem to be unnecessary. Even the ability score requirements are probably more of a recommendation for safety than anything else (as a character temporarily loses 2d4 points from the appropriate ability score when a Legacy is gained and dies if that loss puts the ability score at zero or below). > Benefit: Gain a second Legacy. Access to the magical substances > cinnabryl, red steel, crimson essence, and smokepowder. The character has > learned how to produce crimson essence in two months, instead of six months > that others take to create the crimson essence. This feat seems to be virtually identical with the Inheritor Associate feat. However, if we make that feat a prerequisite for this one, then the effects of this feat would be improved access to the magical substances (ahead of Associates and then anyone else), faster preparation of crimson essence, and the ability to add (Level / 3) to maximum number of Legacies. There is no particular reason to require Legacies to be acquired at the earliest possible opportunity. > INHERITOR FIGHTER ADEPT If we redefine the first two feats as I suggest above, then this feat is reduced to "Skill Focus (Craft (Redsmithing))". The other "Adept" feats would also be reduced to various "Skill Focus" feats under this scheme. Maybe another requirement for becoming an Inheritor Initiate should be a certain number (6+?) of ranks in one of the following "Red Curse" skills: Alchemy Craft (Redsmithing) Disguise Knowledge (Curse Lore) Knowledge (Legacy Lore) Role in the Order would then be determined by the skill used to gain access rather than class per se. Of course, since these roles are most easily performed by members of the proper class, candidates to become Inheritor Initiates would make a point of gaining ranks in the most appropriate skill for their class (which would invariably be a class skill for them, of course). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:24:09 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going by the history of Stefan as well as my own personal preferences about the alignment system as applied to Mystara, I would be inclined to label him Lawful Neutral. First, the Good/Evil axis: I would suggest that Mystara has an unusually high number of people who are Neutral on this axis. I would limit Evil alignment to those who are associated with Entropy or noted for their villainous acts, while I would limit Good alignment for those who are noted for saintly or heroic acts. Stefan fails to meet either qualification and so is Neutral on the Good/Evil axis. Like most complex Mystaran NPCs, he is capable of both good and evil acts, and his personal history clearly contains examples of both. For the Law/Chaos axis, we have a Lawful label consistently applied. I would tend to accept these labels as accurate, with the exception of people such as the Heldannic Knights or the Shadow Elves being labeled "Chaotic" by their foes. But some have suggested that in Stefan's case this label is inaccurate because of the way he struck out on his own. I would suggest otherwise -- it is in his way of striking out on his own and that his alignment shows. If you can imagine a "Noble Code of Honor" as might be drawn up by the nobility of Thyatis, Stefan follows it for the most part. Every major action of his seems to be strictly within Thyatian tradition: Since Stefan's liege lord Thincol had (in the opinions of Thincol and Stefan) legitimate authority over both Traladara (directly) and Machetos (through Stefan), the two of them were within their rights to negotiate any arrangements that they could both agree to. Since that agreement granted full independence to Stefan, neither had any formal obligations to the other once the deal was completed. Of course, the deal did leave a lot of disgruntled Machetans and Traladarans, but I would suggest that that aspect of the deal would be Evil rather than Chaotic in nature. Stefan's filling of top positions with his Thyatian friends and relatives was quite in line with common traditions of taking care of one's family and repaying past favors. His willful ignorance of his cousin's behavior occurred because of that family loyalty -- if he "knew" what his despicable cousin was doing in Halag, he would be forced to harm a relative, so for the sake of family peace he made a point of "not knowing" -- at least until the Halflings took that excuse away from him. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Straight Subject: Re: Fall of Alfheim... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: The Stalker To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Date: Sunday, November 19, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Fall of Alfheim... >1) Can anybody remember which clans go north to Wendar and which go south to Karameikos? Since Doriath goes north, I assume Clan Erendyl goes north, and I think Clan Chossum goes south... I pieced together who went where from clues in subsequent Almanacs (PWAs, the JA, and even the MAs), but now I can't find it, obviously... The following is from the Known World Grimoire by Bruce Heard in Dragon #189: Which elven clans migrated north to Wendar and which ones travelled south to Karameikos, after the transformation of Alfheim? Migrated north: Feadil, Long Runners, Mealidil, and Grunalf They went through Canolbarth, tiptoed between Yellow Orkia and Gruuk, skirted the Ethengarian border along eastern Broken Lands and Glantri, fled in to Glantrian territory near Estoniarsk (Boldavia) after savage Ethengarian attacks (in the fall of AC1008), continued toward the Barony of Pavlova, moved northwest through forested hills of the Wendarian Ranges, and finally went due north from there into Wendar. Feadil settled south of Sylvair; Mealidil north of Sylvair; Grunalf west of Woodgate; Long Runners north of Woodgate. Each clan was given a 2,000 sq. mile wooded area (pine forest) in exchange for swearing fealty to the King of Wendar They had a long, difficult trek, but it was a rewarding one. Migrated south: Chossum, Erendyl, and Red Arrow. They gathered south of Selenica, then headed south down the Duke�s road (now called the King�s Road) to Penhaligon and Kelvin. As of AC 1010, those unable to fight have been allowed to set camp in the woods east of the Unnamed Moor. Chossum and Erendyl warriors went south into Calarii territory to help them exterminate the goblins there. Calarii Elves have greeted them with mixed feelings. Red Arrow warriors went east to fight other humanoids in the heavy forest north of the Vyalia Elves. So far, these three clans have the status of undesirable refugees at best. Frictions between them and the Karameikos elves are beginning to be felt. Erendyl has begun petitioning the King for a separate dominion in Radlebb Woods to help defuse an explosive situation. James Straight ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:27:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is how I see it too, good call. --- David Knott wrote: > Going by the history of Stefan as well as my own > personal preferences > about the alignment system as applied to Mystara, I > would be inclined > to label him Lawful Neutral. > > First, the Good/Evil axis: I would suggest that > Mystara has an > unusually high number of people who are Neutral on > this axis. > I would limit Evil alignment to those who are > associated with > Entropy or noted for their villainous acts, while I > would limit > Good alignment for those who are noted for saintly > or heroic > acts. seems like a good definer. The world is not black and white but grey > Stefan fails to meet either qualification and > so is Neutral > on the Good/Evil axis. Like most complex Mystaran > NPCs, he > is capable of both good and evil acts, and his > personal history > clearly contains examples of both. > > For the Law/Chaos axis, we have a Lawful label > consistently > applied. I would tend to accept these labels as > accurate, > with the exception of people such as the Heldannic > Knights > or the Shadow Elves being labeled "Chaotic" by their > foes. As I think has been happening much for stefan recently. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > He has concern for others only when it doesn't > interfere with his own > interests. That's what Neutral (on a good-evil axis) > people do. Lawful neutral then? > > > > Traladaran rulers in their own country weren't > > > legitimate?! What is your > > > definition of legitimate? > > > > They could have been ligitimate but there is no > > evidence that they wern't tyrants either, because > WE > > Whether they were tyrants or not has no bearing on > their legitimacy. What does. My point was the relationship of noble to populace was not defined, and just because stefan is now in charge there is no "evidence" to say weather the structure of society has drastically changed or not. Just who the heads of state are. > > DO NOT KNOW. It is now Stefan's country yet you > call > > him illigitimate. Your definition needs > questioning too. > > > Okay. By that reasoning, if Thyatis now invades > Karameikos, conquers it, > and executes Stefan, then the Emperor of Thyatis > will become the > legitimate ruler of Karameikos and nobody should > complain. Well, it's > one possible view (one that you espouse). Yes I'm quite happy with that view, as I see conquest in medieval times as a ligitimate form of expansion. > And by the way, I never called Stefan illegitimate, > I just questioned > your insistence that the old Traladaran rulers > weren't legitimate. It was the assumption that they wern't and stefan was I was refuting. But if stefan isn't it's not an issue. legitimacy I think is still unclear and probally very relitive. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior >> But some have suggested that in Stefan's case this label is inaccurate because of the way he struck out on his own. << That's not an accurate representation of my reasoning. Please re-read my mails in which I described my reasons for evaluating his alignment as I did (if you no longer have them, I'm not going to repeat my reasoning again - they're in the archives if you need to check). His striking out on his own was but one example of many of his erratic style (and, as someone pointed out, "alignment isn't a straightjacket" - people might do some few things that contradict their basic alignment. This is why isolated examples, like "he built roads" {an essentially neutral act anyhow} or "he sent a grain shipment" does nothing to alter the essential aspects of his personality as displaced in his actions over the entirety of his life). >> His willful ignorance of his cousin's behavior occurred because of that family loyalty -- if he "knew" what his despicable cousin was doing in Halag, he would be forced to harm a relative, << Now, some might argue, as has been done several times, that it's acceptable to turn a blind eye to the depridations of a relative. I don't see it. I don't see why it is acceptable (and no one has given a reason) for a moral and virtuous person to ignore bad acts done by someone close to them. I don't see how that makes one a person of integrity (except in and among "The Family" - Mafia morality and the code of Omerta, which one *might* in a stretch categorize as one of the three Lawful alignments - but it isn't the Lawful Good one, or even the Lawful Neutral one.) But lets say that if you have a relative who's doing harm it might be considered Neutral to not go out of your way to stop him. But what if you're facilitating his harms? What if he is only in a position to commit harms because of an action you took? Is it then acceptable and moral to be a bystander? How does Gaz1 describe the harms done by Stefan's cousin, the man Stefan apointed as Baron of Halag? Are these harms minor things that one can overlook and be considered a person of integrity? "Stefan has a responsibility towards his relative, his cousin" it is argued, I suppose (that being the basis for asserting that it is ok for him to overlook the depradations committed by Ludwig). But when does that responsibility towards the relative and, and the duity towards the people he harms begin? When Ludwig commits his fifth murder? His eightieth rape? This is a shameful argument to make, once one looks at the facts as they are. Those facts being these: 1) The inhabitants of the Halag region ("Black Eagle Barony") are not simply the subjects of Ludwig. They are ALSO the subjects of Stefan. Stefan indeed wanted to rule Traladara and Traladarans - all of them. And, yes, the feudal code makes him responsible for their welfare, if he is a just and virtuous sovereign and liege. 2) Ludwig's acts are not just minor excesses that might be overlooked out of some (misguided) sense of filial obligation (misguided because one, rather than having a duty to overlook the actions of your kin when they do wrong, have a responsibility to attempt to correct them). These are extreme acts of depravity, crimes against humanity on a continuous and grave scale over a long period of time. One cannot look the other way and be a person of integrity. 3) Ludwig did not attain the power and position to commit these acts by some happenstance, by some chance act for which Stefan had no responsibility. Ludwig is in the position to commit these acts because of Stefan - this makes Stefan the facilitator of them. He is an indirect and, in the beginning, unwitting accomplice. The more he refuses to look into the matter, refuses to aknowlege what is going on and refuses to take steps to halt it, the more his culpability grows. "Pretending not to know" is not an excuse, and is not exculpatory. Ignoring and not investigating the reports of Ludwig's actions makes his accomplice nature even more direct - his failure to investigate and co-comitant failure to punish these CRIMES is an example of NOT BEING LAWFUL. A Lawful person would investigate, regardless of who was committing the act. A Chaotic person feels such personal bonds (kinship, friendship) as more binding than general responsibilities. But even a Chaotic Good person would have taken action against Ludwig to stop his depradations as soon as possible (the more so considering their dispicable nature). Stefan's stance in all this? He's a neutral bystander, at best. At worst? An accomplice, after and during the fact. His failure to act, given his responsibility as the (SOLE, at his insistance) sovereign of Karameikos (ne Traladara), is more akin to a policeman who stands by and watches a woman get raped, beaten, and killed and does nothing because the criminal is his cousin. We do not find such a policeman to be admirable. We do not see such a policeman as properly carrying out his duties. We do not see such a policeman as a "good" person, or a person of sound integrity. We do not see that policeman as a Lawful person. To finish: Stefan had an even greater duty to step in when one of his own relatives was commiting harms. He has an even greater responsibility to those close to him than he does to those far from him. That Ludwig was his cousin is, instead of being an excuse to turn a blind eye to his actions, all the more reason to step in and prevent them. If Stefan didn't want to be his brother's (or his cousin's) keeper, he shouldn't have taken up the burdens of rulership to begin with. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:16:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/18/00 6:41:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: > But if I should, then I would say that people tend to get suspicious, when > the mage they just killed turns to snow and melts into nothingness... Uh . . . oops?! Got me there, maybe a "simulacrum-like" flesh golem? I always create top-down--concept first, then details. What's worse is that I'm considering having the Bargle at Fort Doom be another simulacrum- golem. The real Bargle (who's very high level) endeavors to conquer the Duchy (using the mad Baron and other pawns). His golem-simulacra allow him to almost literally be in several places at once (he's an obsessive micro-manager due to paranoia). The "Bargle" in the Basic set adventure was an experiment that turned out less successfully than Bargle had hoped--he wanted a more powerful and intelligent simulacrum. The Fort Doom "Bargle" was more to his satisfaction. I'm creating master villians somewhat too far in advance, as my group likely won't encounter even the 15th level Bargle for awhile, but I'm sure when I do spring this one on my players, the stunned look they'll give me will definitely make the long wait worth it! [Key tape of maniacal laughter!] ~ Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:40:03 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Respect the Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/19/00 7:25:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > LOL. This implies, naturally, that PCs have no such respect for the dead... I > think I agree :) Are you kidding me? The priest one of my players uses most often, goes around burning EV-ER-Y opponent he comes across--living, just slain, and undead (& I wouldn't put non-corporeals past him either) alike. You'd think as the "referee" I'd question his ethics and that'd be that, but when another player decides to start calling him (among other things) "Pyro, the (one & only) firebug elf" (much to his displeasure, but not enough for him to stop), can you really blame me if sometimes I let the realism slip a little just for a few chucks? The average player motto (cleric or not) should be "Respect for the dead? That's an optional rule, right?" ~ Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:56:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Respect the Dead In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:40 11/20/00 EST, Shawn J. wrote: > Are you kidding me? The priest one of my players uses most often, >goes around burning EV-ER-Y opponent he comes across--living, just slain, >and undead (& I wouldn't put non-corporeals past him either) alike. You'd >think as the "referee" I'd question his ethics and that'd be that, but when >another player decides to start calling him (among other things) "Pyro, the >(one & only) firebug elf" (much to his displeasure, but not enough for him to >stop), can you really blame me if sometimes I let the realism slip a little >just >for a few chucks? The average player motto (cleric or not) should be >"Respect for the dead? That's an optional rule, right?" You know, if you REALLY want to stop him doing that, it wouldn't be too hard ... Let him kill someone charmed or otherwise not in control of themselves. Let the family be someone important and good guys. And let them be VERY offended at what he's done. Sobbing widow and mother, daughter slapping his face, the whole nine yards. Have him not welcome in some aspects of society. Hell, have the family spread the word about him, and the grave insult he's paid to an important member of the community. No assassins, no violence, nothing he can fight back against. I suspect he'll start respecting the dead more often. Not all the time -- trolls still get burnt, of course -- but it would put a crimp in his plans and be absolutely realistic and non-punitive. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:42:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > For the Law/Chaos axis, we have a Lawful label > > consistently > > applied. I would tend to accept these labels as > > accurate, > > with the exception of people such as the Heldannic > > Knights > > or the Shadow Elves being labeled "Chaotic" by their > > foes. If the SE and HK are labeled Chaotic by their foes, then Stefan is labeled Lawful by his supporters, despite his actions. After the exchange with Thincol, BTW, Stefan was not free of obligations with him (there was an alliance, as per the Gaz), therefore his actions in the WotI aren't Lawful at all. Simply put, the OD&D alignments only state whether someone is friend or foe, from the PCs supposed poit of view. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:54:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Hi from Nadia and Renato Hi! > The URL is http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.htlm Some links (beyond this one ;P) are broken: you shouldn't use spaces in filenames. Other than that, I liked the site. BTW, I hope Usamigaras isn't an halfling, IYC :) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:46:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: NPC Request In-Reply-To: <20001119114459.A637@esatclear.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Count is also a pretty secretive guy, and I'm not going to post his stats on the list. He is however assumed to be at least a 30th level magic-user (OD&D). Rumors at Eriadna's court also claim him both a Nosferatu and a Lich. With his affinity to undead, that doesn't seem unlikely. The Nosferatu claim seems to have been contradicted by his appearance in broad daylight, though. > Does The Stalker have a real name? I need a name for the leader > of the Alphatians who have currently conquered Boldavia and are > marching on the rest of Glantri IMC... If there was an Alphatian invasion of Boldavia, then I'm sure The Count and his undead hordes would be part of it, as he would take the opportunity to make a stab at his nemesis, prince Morphail. He would never challenge him personally, though. Great personal danger was never his way. He's more likely to stay behind at the Wraith (his legendary flying ship), and control his army of Zombies, Skeletons, Wights and the like through his Liutenants (all intelligent undead). - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:55:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: Respect the Dead In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The average player motto (cleric or not) should be > "Respect for the dead? That's an optional rule, right?" > ~ Shawn J. Unfortunately my players seem to have the same view of things... This is always to my annoyance, it is such a waste of good materials. Decapitated bodies make so much poorer Zombies.... - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:01:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001119201102.24957.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:11:02PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:11:02PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > I therefore would be inclined > to say that your Mystara is a variation that is > "non-canon" (but good for you, variation is all good) Oh my yes. Celebrate diversity. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:03:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: NPC Request In-Reply-To: ; from alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:04:28AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:04:28AM +0100, The Stalker wrote: > > Of course he does, but I doubt he'd suit you for this matter - it doesn't sound very much IC for him, though(according to how I've played him anyway), so I think you might be slightly disappointed... > > Besides, I kind of like his anonymous existence on this list :) :) Well, it's only names that I'm looking for, since I can never make up enough good names myself! gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:05:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: NPC Request In-Reply-To: ; from sverrebm@ONLINE.NO on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:46:10AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:46:10AM +0100, Mzilikazi wrote: > The Count is also a pretty secretive guy, and I'm not going to post his > stats on the list. He is however assumed to be at least a 30th level > magic-user (OD&D). Rumors at Eriadna's court also claim him both a Nosferatu > and a Lich. With his affinity to undead, that doesn't seem unlikely. The > Nosferatu claim seems to have been contradicted by his appearance in broad > daylight, though. > > > Does The Stalker have a real name? I need a name for the leader > > of the Alphatians who have currently conquered Boldavia and are > > marching on the rest of Glantri IMC... > > If there was an Alphatian invasion of Boldavia, then I'm sure The Count and > his undead hordes would be part of it, as he would take the opportunity to > make a stab at his nemesis, prince Morphail. He would never challenge him > personally, though. Great personal danger was never his way. He's more > likely to stay behind at the Wraith (his legendary flying ship), and control > his army of Zombies, Skeletons, Wights and the like through his Liutenants > (all intelligent undead). Consider Count Mzilikazi stolen for use IMC :) gordon, thief of thoughts, stealer of imagination, plagarist extrodinaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:43:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: R: Re: [MYSTARA] New site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Some links (beyond this one ;P) are broken: you shouldn't use spaces in >filenames. We know this problem and we are working for to find a solution >Other than that, I liked the site. BTW, I hope Usamigaras isn't an >halfling, IYC :) -- > Giampaolo Agosta Thank you. In my campaign the Usamigaras Wizards can be wizards or thieves. They aren't halflings (not even Usamigaras). Nadia . agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:04:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At our last session, I introduced Ludwig von Hendriks in the campaign. = The PCs had just supposedly exposed a spy in the court of a local knight = of Karameikos. The knight had hired them to deliver ransom for his = kidnapped son (this was an adapted Dungeon adventure, perhaps you know = it), but was double-crossing them, since he didn't consider the son = legitimate. When the PCs discovered that they were delivering lead coins = for the ransom, they became rather suspicious. When they returned, the = knight managed to convince them that his trusted advisor was actually a = spy sent by Ludwig, and had him executed. He went on to describe what a = bastard Ludwig was, and the players decided something had to be done. Now, in this campaign I've portrayed Stefan as a nice guy, and a fair = ruler, and, though the PCs have never met him, I'm sure they consider = him benevolent. They suggested to the knight that perhaps they could = convince other local rulers to gather support for overthrowing Ludwig. = The knight said 'Yes, but Ludwig is the cousin of Stefan Karameikos'. = All the players said was 'oh...', and they let the issue drop = immediately. Draw your own conclusions. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what >> This is how I see it too, good call. << Well, that's progress of a sort for you; you had been insisting, contrary to the evidence, that he was Lawful Good. Now you're where I was at the start of this discussion, seeing him as Lawful Neutral. 8-) --- David Knott wrote: > Going by the history of Stefan as well as my own > personal preferences > about the alignment system as applied to Mystara, I > would be inclined > to label him Lawful Neutral. > > First, the Good/Evil axis: I would suggest that > Mystara has an > unusually high number of people who are Neutral on > this axis. > I would limit Evil alignment to those who are > associated with > Entropy or noted for their villainous acts, while I > would limit > Good alignment for those who are noted for saintly > or heroic > acts. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:10:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: R: Re: [MYSTARA] New site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hador wrote: > > In my campaign the Usamigaras Wizards can be wizards or thieves. They aren't > halflings (not even Usamigaras). I supposed so, since you made him an ancestor of Queen Zenobia! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:19:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization In-Reply-To: <20001116192837.26780.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Chris Furneaux wrote: > In a previous mail I sergested that the reason the > Pyrithians were stuck in space is that fusion is > dangerous near Mystara and if they were reliant on it > they may have settled on damocles, with other > exploring members of blackmoor unable to return > because of their technology. Perhaps more magic gets > drawn to damocles over time (Mystara influence?) and > that caused all their fusion reactors to malfunction > at about the same time, obliterating the planet. > What do you think? Most likely the Pyrithians wouldnt have any idea what the radiation level on Mystara was, but they may not have returned to Mystara out of fear of that or that they just didnt see much point in returning to a postapocalyptic world. Personally, I prefer the theory that the Pyrithians were part of the Beagle crew left in the asteroid belt before the crash, perhaps just to investigate strange phenomena there. They were dependent on the Beagle to pick them up and since that didnt happen, they were stuck and had to get used to that idea. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:22:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: What's a Skyshield for? In-Reply-To: <20001116193326.14261.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, John Calvin wrote: > Maybe I'm confused as to what a skyshield is for. I always got the > impression that the skyshield was needed in order to retain an > atmosphere. If this is the case, then won't other habitable worlds > need one as well. > > Or...did Mystara need a skyshield because it was hollow? I seem to > recal reading that somewhere, but can't remember where. Anyway that > explination doesn't make any sense to me because Mystara already has > World Shield ore which provides the planet with enough gravity to keep > its occupants from floating away (why wouldn't it work on atmosphere > as well?). Other worlds may have a skyshield. But I got the impression that Mystaras skyshield was created to protect that world from offworld travellers. It may or may not have to do with the HW, but at any rate its very difficult to get beyond Mystaras atmosphere because of it. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:29:09 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Fall of Alfheim... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> 2) Does anybody have adventures or ideas for adventures for this? I have two elves in the group, though only one is truly from Alfheim (the other lives in Darokin, fairly close to the border), but the Alfheim elf is a new character IMC... I think I'll have them escort the elves fleeing south, but I'm not going to sit down and work it all out myself if somebody has something excellent lying around (yes, I'm that lazy)... << Too much Zzonga I suppose... ;) Anyway the MA had a good scenario at their site. http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/files.htm It appears that the link is not working right now, but I may have a copy on my machine at home. If you want it, just let me know (go ahead and e-mail me privately). John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:52:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: What's a Skyshield for? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Other worlds may have a skyshield. But I got the impression that Mystaras > skyshield was created to protect that world from offworld travellers. It > may or may not have to do with the HW, but at any rate its very difficult > to get beyond Mystaras atmosphere because of it. The skyshield doesn't offer much protection from off-world travellers, since it doesn't prevent anything from entering Mystara's atmosphere, it just prevents things from leaving it. If something penetrates the skyshield from the outside, it merely pokes a hole, creating a ripstorm behind it. In the case of Mystara, it seems like the skyshield has two functions: 1: To contain Mystara's atmosphere. 2: To contain the magic-strong inhabitants of mystara from too easily being hurled into the airless void surrounding it. That is the impression I get from what is written in the PWAs about it, and is the way I have always treated it IMC. - Count Mzilikazi ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:38:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Iain Reid Subject: hollow world 3rd ed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I am new to this list but I have been DM'ing mystara for a long time. My current campaign is in the Hollow World and is 3rd Edition. I have started to put a little work into converting the Hollow World races for 3rd edition and I was wondering if anyone would like to see some of the results. However I was feeling a little constrained by the basic 3rd Ed PHB. Does anyone know of any lists of additional skills and feats? Also I was wondering if anyone else has done much work in converting Mystara to 3rd Edition. (e.g. Glantian Magic in 3rd ed?) Thanks muchly, -Iain Reid ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:39:18 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: GBN Discussion Archive (was: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question).) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:03:40 +0100 The Stalker writes: > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:46:07 Aaron E Nowack wrote: > >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:22:27 +0100 Caroletti > writes: > >> I doubt it. The only past time when we agreed was when we > planned > >> that > >> vacation in Ierendi...but then someone (Kayvid?) told us that > the > >> beautiful girls > >> on the depliants are not found on the islands themselves, so we > >> didn't do > >> anything with it, either... > > > >And that discussion is archived at my website, IIRC. > > > > Where is that, if I may be so bold? > > I was so amused by the idea that I just had to see it myself (I'm an > Alphatian wizard, so I don't know what I say half the time, as I'm > sure Captain Scaevola would agree :) ). However, when I tried to > look in the 'basement' (where I get the feeling the MML related > stuff was), I was told that the page couldn't be found :( That should be fixed by the time you read this. Yes, the basement is where the (in)famous G.A.G./GBN/CrystalVision "discussion" is archived. Eventually, it may be expanded to include archives of whatever discussions I deem worthy of being preserved that aren't put on Shawn's site in some form. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:11:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: What's a Skyshield for? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> The skyshield doesn't offer much protection from off-world travellers, since it doesn't prevent anything from entering Mystara's atmosphere, it just prevents things from leaving it. If something penetrates the skyshield from the outside, it merely pokes a hole, creating a ripstorm behind it. << I agree. >> In the case of Mystara, it seems like the skyshield has two functions: 1: To contain Mystara's atmosphere. 2: To contain the magic-strong inhabitants of mystara from too easily being hurled into the airless void surrounding it. That is the impression I get from what is written in the PWAs about it, and is the way I have always treated it IMC. << This is the impression I always got as well. Unfortunately it never made much sense for me. Especially function #1. There is no real need for it. Mystara has the World Shield ore, which provides enough gravity to keep Mystarans on the ground...why wouldn't it keep the atmosphere on the planet? If for function #2, you mean, "To keep skyships from easily leaving the planet," then I guess I agree with that as well. It just seems so contrived though. John ===== Rule #46. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:51:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: What's a Skyshield for? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:11:23 -0800 John Calvin writes: > This is the impression I always got as well. Unfortunately it never > made much sense for > me. Especially function #1. There is no real need for it. Mystara > has the World Shield > ore, which provides enough gravity to keep Mystarans on the > ground...why wouldn't it keep > the atmosphere on the planet? Perhaps Mystara has slightly less then Earth's gravity and anabnormally large atmoshpere. > If for function #2, you mean, "To keep skyships from easily leaving > the planet," then I > guess I agree with that as well. It just seems so contrived > though. Perhaps it is contrived? Maybe the Skyshield is created by a Blackmoo-era device. Possibly either as a defensive shield (that was inversed during the Great Rain of Fire in a futile effort to protect orbital colonies) or as a "space-traffic control device", to keep those anoying elves and serpent people from getting off Mystara? Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 01:21:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fall of Alfheim... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:12:34 James Straight wrote: (snip my own mail) > >The following is from the Known World Grimoire by Bruce Heard in Dragon >#189: > > > >Which elven clans migrated north to >Wendar and which ones travelled south to >Karameikos, after the transformation of >Alfheim? > (snip rest) Wow! I actually think I have that issue, but I must have overlooked it. You've just saved me a lot of speculation! Thank you very much! - Stalker the grateful (yes, it does happen) :) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:07:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Respect the Dead Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:56:13 Beau Yarbrough wrote: >At 01:40 11/20/00 EST, Shawn J. wrote: > >> Are you kidding me? The priest one of my players uses most often, >>goes around burning EV-ER-Y opponent he comes across--living, just slain, >>and undead (& I wouldn't put non-corporeals past him either) alike. You'd >>think as the "referee" I'd question his ethics and that'd be that, but when >>another player decides to start calling him (among other things) "Pyro, the >>(one & only) firebug elf" (much to his displeasure, but not enough for him to >>stop), can you really blame me if sometimes I let the realism slip a little >>just >>for a few chucks? The average player motto (cleric or not) should be >>"Respect for the dead? That's an optional rule, right?" > ROFL! I'll have to remember that one... ;) > You know, if you REALLY want to stop him doing that, it wouldn't be too >hard ... > Let him kill someone charmed or otherwise not in control of themselves. >Let the family be someone important and good guys. And let them be VERY >offended at what he's done. Sobbing widow and mother, daughter slapping his >face, the whole nine yards. Have him not welcome in some aspects of >society. Hell, have the family spread the word about him, and the grave >insult he's paid to an important member of the community. > No assassins, no violence, nothing he can fight back against. > I suspect he'll start respecting the dead more often. Not all the time -- >trolls still get burnt, of course -- but it would put a crimp in his plans >and be absolutely realistic and non-punitive. > These are all nice suggestions. I have only one problem with them, but that would apply to any solution. If the players are really like Shawn describes, they'll stick to another tried and tested pearl of player wisdom - "We're in trouble? It's the DM's fault!" I actually did something along similar IMC recently too. Most of the PCs were on a mission to a castle, but I needed to introduce a new PC (new player), so I had that character look for his old friend, a priest of Maat, who had disappeared in the area. They did manage to find this priest... Only the evil lich of the castle had turned him into a wight! I'll never forget the shock and horror on the player's face at this - as DM I live for times like this ;) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:20:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Fall of Alfheim... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:29:09 John Calvin wrote: >>> >2) Does anybody have adventures or ideas for adventures for this? I have two elves in the >group, though only one is truly from Alfheim (the other lives in Darokin, fairly close to >the border), but the Alfheim elf is a new character IMC... I think I'll have them escort >the elves fleeing south, but I'm not going to sit down and work it all out myself if >somebody has something excellent lying around (yes, I'm that lazy)... ><< > >Too much Zzonga I suppose... ;) > Whatever are you implying??? I never touched the stuff - it gets in the way of spellcasting and I have far too many people to fireball on this list for their insolence! Which reminds me that I have something for you... ;) >Anyway the MA had a good scenario at their site. > >http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/files.htm > >It appears that the link is not working right now, but I may have a copy on my machine at >home. If you want it, just let me know (go ahead and e-mail me privately). > Wouldn't work for me either, so please mail it to me if you have it lying around. My campaign is about to deal with the goblinoid invasions of Glantri and Darokin, so the fall of Alfheim isn't far away, and I'd better get prepared! Thanks. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:32:05 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Beau Yarbrough > > At 16:54 11/19/00 EST, David Knott wrote: > > >I suppose that this trick just might work once -- but you can be sure > >that the next time around Bargle's foe will give the "dead" Bargle the > >troll treatment. I think that this possibility is one reason that 3E > >dropped the Feign Death spell completely -- it presupposes a > >certain degree of respect for corpses to be of any benefit. > > Or, at least, that you'll have better things to do than go around > whacking on apparently dead guys when there's a chance wandering > monsters will be kicking down the door any second, brought there by > the noise of combat. That depends on how much the party wants to ensure that Bargle stays dead. If he apparently died once before and then got better on his own, they would want to make sure he is dead the second time. While hacking and burning might be excessive, the one round required for a coup de grace would definitely be worthwhile. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:46:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regard to Stefan's willful ignorance of Ludwig's behavior: I would maintain that it is indeed Lawful behavior. Read the description of the "Lawful Evil" alignment and you will see that in this case he took an attitude that fit squarely within that alignment -- and his alignment would qualify as that if we judge him solely on that issue. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:32:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Evil Genius wrote: > >> This is how I see it too, good call. << > > Well, that's progress of a sort for you; you had > been insisting, contrary to the evidence, that he > was Lawful Good. Now you're where I was at the start > of this discussion, seeing him as Lawful Neutral. > 8-) Only if you concider Mystara has an unusually high number of people who are Neutral Good/Evil axis. He's gennerally good, but known to do bad things. I would not have ever defined him as saintly or amavingly heroic. I still see him as a good man, just not good aligned because that requires under this definition the hatred of all things bad, which I accept stefan does not have (He deals with thytis and Alphatia after all *joke*). But because he is also known to be good I would seggest he cannot be evil either. I guess good and evil alignments become more important if you have a lot of people at the ends of the spectrum, or as character definers that guide PC's roleplaying when compared to the rest of the world. This leads you to have a chaotic good characters who *need* to be played like robin hood and chaotic evil character should be played as Sherif of nottingham/black eagle types. Generally everyone else they meet will be neutral on the good/evil axis but will vary on the lawful/chaotic axis. Does this seem reasonable? Chris. > --- David Knott wrote: > > Going by the history of Stefan as well as my own > > personal preferences > > about the alignment system as applied to Mystara, > I > > would be inclined > > to label him Lawful Neutral. > > > > First, the Good/Evil axis: I would suggest that > > Mystara has an > > unusually high number of people who are Neutral > on > > this axis. > > I would limit Evil alignment to those who are > > associated with > > Entropy or noted for their villainous acts, while > I > > would limit > > Good alignment for those who are noted for > saintly > > or heroic > > acts. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:51:47 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Shawn J." Subject: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/18/00 11:53:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: > Since the monk Paul G D now has his Butter those of you who went on the > heroic quest for it, you know who you are, will have recieved the agreed > upon recompence. Pity you didn't check the warranty though, and as for the The tale of the butter (on the MML a while back) had me rolling on the floor (well almost--but it was FUN-E), and I for one would vote for regular installments of the continuing adventures of the holy oleo! ~ Shawn J. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:52:31 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the scum among the moderators to this list who tried to suppress this posting: Up yours! If you reject it again, I will be very pissed and react in a very hostile manner. And please explain to me why I am under review anyway. For the rest of you, a second attempt: From: Beau Yarbrough > > At 16:54 11/19/00 EST, David Knott wrote: > > >I suppose that this trick just might work once -- but you can be sure > >that the next time around Bargle's foe will give the "dead" Bargle the > >troll treatment. I think that this possibility is one reason that 3E > >dropped the Feign Death spell completely -- it presupposes a > >certain degree of respect for corpses to be of any benefit. > > Or, at least, that you'll have better things to do than go around > whacking on apparently dead guys when there's a chance wandering > monsters will be kicking down the door any second, brought there by > the noise of combat. That depends on how much the party wants to ensure that Bargle stays dead. If he apparently died once before and then got better on his own, they would want to make sure he is dead the second time. While hacking and burning might be excessive, the one round required for a coup de grace would definitely be worthwhile. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:28:39 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what >> But because he is also known to be good I would seggest he cannot be evil either. << One of my points, however, is that one can be known to be good without being good. Indeed, personally, having both played and DMed, I've found that the most compelling villians aren't the obvious, Ludwig-like Snidely Whiplash types. No, not at all. The best, most compelling, and most difficult villians to deal with are the last people the characters (speaking both as a person who plays characters and as someone who's DM'ed campaigns) would suspect. . .and, whom the characters, once they do come to know the Heart of Darkness, have difficulty moving against for a variety of reasons (they discover that the man who is "widely known" to be a "good king" is actually a coniving bastard who has been complicit all along in the nasty acts he supposedly "knew nothing about". But many people the characters know and respect still see the "kindly villian" as a good man, and stand ready to defend him). Now, Stefan's image of a "good King" is belied by the very canon that strives to create that image - as we have seen, by not only his inactions but his actions, his behavior is at variance from that image. One doesn't have to invent new things to see him in a different (and, IMO, more accurate) light - it's already there. This makes him much more interesting as a villian than two score Ludwigs; and it makes him much more compelling as a character than the flat, cardboard-cut-out image of the "good but befuddled Stefan", too. Indeed, IMO, and it remains IMO, not only are those who insist (dispite the evidence to the contrary) on believing that Stefan is good and pure wrong on the merits, but they're missing campaign oportunities that no amount of Ludwigs would ever give them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:35:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior >> I would maintain that it is indeed Lawful behavior. Read the description of the "Lawful Evil" alignment and you will see that in this case he took an attitude that fit squarely within that alignment -- and his alignment would qualify as that if we judge him solely on that issue. << Ok; well he behaves, in your opinion, as Lawful Evil on one of the critical issues that arose during his reign, for over thirty five years. Not a isolated episode that arose, was mishandled, but then disapeared, but an ongoing issue (and one that was merely one part of a whole - remember, Ludwig is merely the worst example of a pattern of bad behavior that occured during, and as a direct consiquence of, Stefan's reign). Put alongside that, it is the "good" grain shipment that is an isolated thing. This "Lawful Evil" episode is what makes up a pattern of behavior. His other decisions and motivations, examples already raised and dealt with, can be seen in this light, too; we see him now as he truly is. "And what is it you want?" - Mr. Morden "I want to live just long enough to see your head cut off and stuck on a pike, as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come at too high a price." - Vir Kotto. Babylon 5, "Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:37:40 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: ; from Kaviyd@AOL.COM on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:52:31PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:52:31PM -0500, David Knott wrote: > To the scum among the moderators to this list who tried to suppress this > posting: > > Up yours! If you reject it again, I will be very pissed and react in a > very hostile manner. And please explain to me why I am under > review anyway. I received both your attempts. As far as I know, this list is not moderated. If it was moderated, perhaps a more polite approach would work better? Speaking as a sys admin, the impolite approach really annoys me. -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel | processing ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:11:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: hollow world 3rd ed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Iain Reid wrote: > Hello, I am new to this list but I have been DM'ing mystara for > a long time. My current campaign is in the Hollow World and is 3rd > Edition. > > I have started to put a little work into converting the Hollow World races > for 3rd edition and I was wondering if anyone would like to see some of > the results. Definately! > However I was feeling a little constrained by the basic 3rd Ed PHB. Does > anyone know of any lists of additional skills and feats? > > Also I was wondering if anyone else has done much work in converting > Mystara to 3rd Edition. (e.g. Glantian Magic in 3rd ed?) There is another mailinglist specifically created for converting Mystara to 3E. Its called mystara3E and can be found on www.egroups.com H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:40:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shawn J. wrote: > The tale of the butter (on the MML a while back) had me rolling on > the floor (well almost--but it was FUN-E), and I for one would vote = for > regular installments of the continuing adventures of the holy oleo! Well, I did send some suggestions regarding the Sacred Butter of Skytte = to Giulio (Captain Scaevola). I was under the impression that he might = create an adventure or campaign installment about the tale...and if he = doesn't, I might post 'the Truth about the Sacred Butter' some day. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:12:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, I did send some suggestions regarding the Sacred Butter of Skytte to Giulio (Captain Scaevola). I was under the impression that he might create an adventure or campaign installment about the tale... I am working on it, it's just suspended momentarily because I have worked on Nentsun. But I have only two nations of the Inner Circle left to do, so, considering that I will send one nation each week, I have 6 weeks still to go to complete them...however I must update the Nightmare Project, first.... anyway, maybe something will come up in ten days, if I manage to survive at the University (damn Maths!) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:15:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Nentsun Atlas: Inner Circle- General Description MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KeepRofZ@cs.com wrote: > > some use of the Master Box Map, and of minimal references in Canon...like > > the Afridhi... > > Great work so far on the Nentsun Atlas, Thanks!! > but who are the Afridhi and > what product are they from? They are mentioned in the Blackmoor series > BTW, is your work part of the MAsia project? No...the MAsia is long dead, and it seems that the Skothar Team for the Almanac is quite still too, so I have taken upon my shoulders to write something. > I've made a file just for your Nentsun stuff, so I hope it keeps on coming! Yeees, I have already several pages on my computer, and 6 mails already written, but I don't want to overflow the list, so like the History, I will send one nation each week (obviously, if somebody pushes me, I could send 2 per week, but not more). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:07:26 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brant Casavant Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is somewhat off the current stream of thought, but I just wanted to say a few things about Stefan's alignment and the alignment of rulers in general. I've never accepted the idea of Stefan Karameikos being Lawful Good, mostly because I feel *no* ruler could be Lawful Good. At best, I feel rulers might start out with a Lawful Good alignment ("I'm going to be a fair and just ruler. I'm going to make a difference!"), but if they manage to survive their first few years, their alignment shifts. Politics requires too much compromise--compromises between rival factions, compromises between church and state, compromises with rival (sometimes evil) nations, and compromises of principles. Subterfuge and backstabbing are sometimes requires to ensure the safety and prosperity of the realm, and I don't feel that *any* Lawful Good character would be willing to do whatever is necessary to maintain the stability and strenth of a nation. Stefan is an excellent example of this. He's a *very* tenuous position: situated practically in the middle of the Old World, between some of the most powerful and conniving Known World nations (Darokin, Thyatis, the Minrothad Guilds); ruling over a conquered population; elven refugees flooding over the border; behind the other Old World nations in both population, military might and economic strength. This position *requires* him to be make compromises of his principles--if not, I doubt he would have lasted this long. So, that's my two cents. =) - Brant ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:29:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: hollow world 3rd ed In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable At 09:11 11/21/00 +0100, H=E5vard wrote: >> Also I was wondering if anyone else has done much work in converting >> Mystara to 3rd Edition. (e.g. Glantian Magic in 3rd ed?) > >There is another mailinglist specifically created for converting Mystara >to 3E. Its called mystara3E and can be found on www.egroups.com This list is also appropriate for that discussion. The Mystara 3E group is working towards creating a single "standard" 3E version of Mystara, and their decisions are informed by more issues than just what will work in a single campaign. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/15/00 10:23 AM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> Ask the Traladarans. << > > Stefan uses his power to crush them. I guess that makes "Karameikos" a better > place in some people's eyes. But, as you say: > >>> Problem is, "Karameikos" seems to refer to the person first, and "his" >>> nation, second. << > > Guys who want to "mold a nation in their own image" as Stefan set out to do > really, usually, aren't such swell fellows, and we can see that in Stefan's > behavior. Why are such usually not such swell fellows? Because to "mold a > nation in their own image", they have to DESTROY previously existing customs. You're preaching to the choir with this one. :-) Even the very first time that I read K:KoA (which was my first Mystara product, along with B1-9), some things were obvious to me: that Traladara had been usurped in the recent past by a despot who had named the country for himself and who was determined to remake the nation in his image....though his image was either 1) unbelievably cruel, or 2) unbelievably stupid. It was also obvious to me that the native people of this land, the Traladarans, were being sytematically stripped of their culture, as evidenced in K:KoA in the push for "New Karameikans" (which seemed to me to be similar to the old push for a generation of "New Soviets," or - though in less malignant ways, admittedly - the Hitler Youth). Another great example from the boxed set of this systematic undermining of Traladaran culture was the "Thyatian" (really, "Karameikan") interpretation of everything Traladaran: the traditional painting of Halav and the Beast-King is re-done in a Thyatian style and praised to the high heavens as "better"; the Song of Halav is called a "myth" from that point of view as well. As for Stefan, in that first exposure to him (after the events of the Black Eagle's ouster were already history), I was equally as likely to believe that either 1) he was a tyrant who did nothing to help the Traladarans in that situation, although he expected their "loyalty" and their complicity in dismantling their culture, or 2) he was an idiot who was so wrapped up in his "cultural revolution," a la Ataurk, that he could not see what his cousin was doing out there in the sticks. However, after becoming significantly more well-versed in Mystaran lore through both the Gazetteers and Almanacs as well as the MML, I learned that Stefan's precious school was built upon not only a "ruin," as stated in K:KoA, but a holy site; that Kelvin had been as well; that numerous people had tried to get Stefan to look at his cousin's excesses, and that he had not merely been too busy or too distracted or too blind to see - people from Traladarans to the Hin had called for his aid, and been denied ("But look, Your Grace: the borders are closed, there are orc armies everywhere, Hin and Elves are being exterminated, Traladarans are being sold into slavery!"...Stefan: "I'm sure Ludwig has it under control. Could you pass the butter?"). No "Good" ruler could be told these things and not at least investigate, send a few spies, send an Elvenguard "escort" for Cousin Ludwig, whatever. It made no sense. So now, to me, either Stefan was 1) a tyrant, as above, or 2) a *complete,* drooling idiot who had no business running a country, let alone remaking one in his own image. Given that Stefan conducts himself in a seemingly rational manner in other aspects of his life (note that I said rational, not benevolent), I threw out #2. Of course, if you apologists want to think of him as a blubbering idiot instead, you're welcome to it...it's your Mystara, as I say. But do justify to me how Stefan's idiocy can be confined to only one aspect of his life (i.e., not seeing evil), and not others (are there any stories of him giving a speech with his breechcloths on over his robes, say?). because no matter how subtle a mental deficiency may be, it *does* present in more than one aspect of someone's life. (Exception: localized brain damage, which can result in some pretty strange, isolated problems, such as the inablility to hear music, or the inability to see things on the right only. If you're proposing that Stefan has brain damage, though, please give some evidence, because I think that's as far-fetched as saying that he's a great guy.) > It doesn't matter to them if the people want to change or not (ask the > followers of the Church of Traladara if they want to be "molded" by Stefan). > If a custom & tradition the people themselves like stands in the way, it must > be destroyed. If people themselves stand in the way, they must be crushed > (Marilenev Rebellion). If an institution stands in the way of this "New" > programe to remodel the country, then it too must be disposed of (thus, not > only are the Marilenevs disposessed, but all the Traladaran leading families > are brushed asside, because they stand for a traditional means of doing things > that Stefan can't abide if he is to reshape the country Precisely. >One must also have an "engine of distruction" to carry out this > process, so that the Great Helmsman can keep a relatively good reputation by > comparison, because a Cult of Personality is also a key eliment in efforts to > tear down a country and then rebuild it according to some "vision". Stalin had > his Beria. Lennin had his Stalin. Mao had his Madam Mao and the "Gang of > Four". Stefan has Ludwig. People are then led to focus their anger and > vexation over the destruction that is being perpetrated upon them at the > Engine of Destruction (Ludwig in this case), ignoring who's really responsible > and even coming to see that person as a sort of "savior-figure" (thus enabling > the Cult of Personality). Yes, yes, yes! Again, James, you're preaching to the choir. :-)) Your description here reminded me of a perfect real-world example, if you'll permit me an aside. From what I recall of my Mexican history as an undergrad (I may not remember the details here, so I'll put on my flamesuit;-), one of the Mexican dictators in the mid-nineteenth century (Santa Ana?), would take off to war in the north, or to his country ranch, and leave some other dupe in charge, who did all the tyrranical things that he had laid out for him. Then, when the people rose up against the dupe's abuses, he would ride in and "save" them, rule for a little while, and then take off again, leaving another dupe to use the iron fist in his stead. It worked: he stayed popular, and in power, for a good, long time. > For Stefan, as the Gaz says, "to rule territory shaped by his hands and formed > in his own image" (p.13), requires not only extreme egoism and narcissism, but > a conciously or unconciously destructive streak. Because to "shape" Traladara, > he would have minimal (at best) respect for the Traladarans who he sets out to > "mold" and "shape" and less respect for their customs and civilization. He > couldn't care less about the people if they don't fit into his "vision", then > they will be pushed into it. What matters are not the people of Traladara - > what matters to Stefan is *his* vision, himself only. Narcissistic egoism and > a vision of himself as a Nietzschean Superman who has the right to "insure his > place in history" even if it means trampling other's to dust and then > reforming the dust to suit his whims. Strange thought. Stefan was 28 in 970, right? So he was about 20 during the Alphatian invasion, a young, hotheaded Duke with presumably blood ties to the old Emperor (distant, of course)? And in comes this common gladiator from Oceansend, who siezes an oportunity and makes himself Emperor. That must have rankled Stefan's hide...of all the people to succeed Gabrionus, why this "scum"? Because the Alphatians hadn't had the decency to stick a sword through Gabriela, instead of wanting to have their fun first, thus allowing Thrainkell time to save her, and the rest is history. For someone as narcissistic as Stefan, convinced of his own "destiny," it must have driven him nuts - had the entire royal family been killed, then he could have at least had an equal shot at siezing the throne (and to someone convinced of their own destiny, "long shots" are not deterrents). So what does he do? Sidle up to the inexperienced young Emperor, and become his friend. Thincol doesn't strike me as a dupe, nor as someone who makes friends at the drop of a hat, or trusts people out of hand. Stefan must have played it very well, for a long time; all the while planning an ultimate betrayal. it strikes me as something conniving enough for Stefan. >>> And choosing Traladara over little Machetos isn't quantity over quality? << > > Exactly. You're spot on again, M'lady. *deep curtsey* :-) > But, again, it's part of Stefan's egoism. Citizens of Thyatis have rights > which the Imperium demands its dominion rulers respect; that's why he can't > just "mold" and "reshape" them according to his whims, and thus why he feels > he needs to seek the oportunity elsewhere. Notice that in Traladara > ("Karameikos") not only are their no Slaves and Serfs *as* *such* (though the > despoiled Traladarans are treated no better than such, really), Yes, and there are also indentured servants, and amazingly, the Iron Ring is allowed to flourish. One has to wonder...did Stefan outlaw slavery because he object sto it, or because he didn't want the wealthy Traladaran families to build themselves private armies? >but there are > NO *Citizens* either - nothing stands in the way of Stefan remolding them to > create "New Soviet - er, Karameikan - Man". Excellent point. >>> You dont have to kill them, if you actively subvert their religion by >>> calling it a "silly superstition," and building cities (Kelvin) and magic >>> schools upon their holy places. << > > Which, again, is very similar to how other totalitarian regimes have handled > religious institutions. The people like them too much for them to be as simply > destroyed as the political institutions that might share authority with you > (I.E. the leading Traladaran families), you can't just get rid of the Orthodox > Russian Church or Buddhist Temples - so you denegrate them while attempting to > co-opt them (the "Maximum Leader" is thus not infrequently "associated" with > the faith in question, while not actually believing in it - there's no > indication that Stefan is religious in *any* way, I can't find any indication > he cares one way or another. He certainly isn't an adherant to the Traladaran > faith. Yes, but there's that Church of Karameikos. This is *not* the Thyatian religious tradition, with many Immortals venerated as one pleases, but a State church, dedicated to the dry, lip-service "worship" of a few Thyatian patrons, under the watchful eye of the *real* patron, Stefan. >And yet we have this Cult of Halav centered around him. Interesting. . > .), while also emptying it of content and authority, treating it as quaint > superstition, kept around like folkdancing and rendered just as inoccuous. Let > the people go pray for the Immortals to deliver them, as a sort of safety >valve against potential unrest. > > And co-opt the religious sites, as you said: build a Thyatian-style > city/fortress over them, or a Alphatian School of magic over them. The holy > sites thus get transformed as well as co-opted, and people can't use them as > they originally did. I wonder what shrine(s) might have been "dynamited" at or > near Krakatos. . . . Yes, or in Halag. Methinks that Cousin Ludwi did more in those years than murder people...they would have all been dead. What was he *really* doing out there? Fortifying the border against the Hin...why? Because the Hin were old friends with the Callarii and Traladarans, and might come to their rescue? Stomping out Traladaran sites - what do you think Fort Doom is built upon? Working with the Iron Ring to sell troublemakers into slavery - if the peasants didn't disappear, who did? (hint: there are no major Traladaran clans in Halag after the Black Eagle years). Just some additional food for thought... Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:03:52 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, there is also the idea that a "good" (or lawful in the BD&D system) character should not administer a coup-de-gras, since that is essentially murdering a helpless person. Rather, if they discovered that the foe could be revived, the "good" thing to do would be to capture and possibly nurse him back to health, so he could stand trial. He may be executed for his crimes, but that should be done fairly and by the proper authority. Of course most players, even of LG characters, are a lot more lawless and vengeful than that (You defied me! I'll kill you for that!), and perhaps lacking a little in the humanity department. (Is it normal or sane to butcher a human corpse?) I see Feign Death as being useful when there are other more immediate concerns to occupy your foes. For example, if other foes are still standing you put off checking the slain until later. While the attackers are distracted by other things, you sneak away and escape. If you're the only foe, then feigning death is not real smart. Also, feign death is more likely to be useful for PCs than NPCs, due to the dynamics of the game. It allows the GM an excuse to gracefully allow the character to survive. Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Harvey gm@dsl-only.net (formerly bing@iccom.com) http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:21:39 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Traladaran holy sites? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I tuned out the Stephan-is-the-embodiment of evil conversations (sorry, but along with Alphatia/Thyatis and how to convert elves to 3E, there's only so much I can take of the subject) but ... Fort Doom, Krakatos and Kelvin are over Traladaran holy sites? Huh? Could someone point me to canonical information about this? I'm going to be using Krakatos as a major setting in the spring (I've given up on doing more than just a few intermediate Mirros adventures in December) and I'm making plans on how the ruins will come into play. All I've got is Jeff Grubb's article on Krakatos and KKoA (and JA, for what that's worth) ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:25:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:03 11/21/2000 +0000, Mike Harvey wrote: >Well, there is also the idea that a "good" (or lawful in the BD&D >system) character should not administer a coup-de-gras, since that >is essentially murdering a helpless person. Rather, if they >discovered that the foe could be revived, the "good" thing to do >would be to capture and possibly nurse him back to health, so he >could stand trial. He may be executed for his crimes, but that should >be done fairly and by the proper authority. That's always mystified me. In a world where locking up demons and trolls isn't realistic, neither is marching a half dozen bandits (or whatever) a hundred miles to an authority that may or may not even know about their crimes. D&D characters aren't comic book superheroes. Imposing four color morality on them doesn't seem a good fit to me. And when you're talking about a genocidal sociopath like Bargle, executing him on the spot for his well-documented crimes seems only logical, especially as you likely won't get a second chance to do it. Sometimes the greater good involves sticking a sword into the chest of a currently helpless being that will be a definite and continuing threat to innocents if you do not. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:36:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: New site In-Reply-To: <000d01c0527c$42a4e8e0$08491497@pc1> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/19/00 4:57 PM, hador@LIBERO.IT wrote: > We write for to say that we made a website with texts and images made by > us. > The site is in Italian but some text are translated in English. > > The URL is http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.htlm Dear Nadia and Renato, After our discussions regarding your campaigns in the past, I looked forward to seeing your new website! Unfortunately, when I clicked on the link you sent, I got an error message: "La pagina che stai cercando non esiste!" Regards, Jenn -- Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:41:25 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/2000 10:18:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, valerya1@YAHOO.COM writes: << >but there are > NO *Citizens* either - nothing stands in the way of Stefan remolding them to > create "New Soviet - er, Karameikan - Man". >> When you say this what exactly do you meen? In the K:KoA book it states that 95% of the pop. are of "Freeman" class. I would think that counts as being a "Citizen". Also in the same book it does say that Stafen is in the Cherch of Karameikos. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:57:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Yes; by Chris's standard, Stefan could declare pillaging, rapine, and murder > (including assassination) done by his appointes to be legal, and he would be > "Lawful". Of course. "I am the Law." > Stefan's *behavior* is the very definition of Chaotic: > > 1) His behavior is erratic; sometimes he's concientious in his decisions, > other times he's not, and seems to make abitrary appointments without regard > to merit. I disagree - I don't think that his decisions are erratic at all. I think that everything he does is thought through quite thoroughly and deliberately. you think he didn't know who his cousin was before appointing him Baron? Of course he knew: Ludwig was a power-hungry but stupid and brutal lout who would be more than happy to be the fall guy for anything that Stefan had him do in the West. True, his appointments are made without regard to merit, but I do think that they are made with regard to his own devious plans. > 2) He is an egoist - a Lawful person would have changed *his* name to reflect > the country he rules before he changed the name of the *country*. A sure sign > that he sees himself (Karameikos) as the primary (or "subject" - meaning that > which is the "topic" of principle importance rather than that which is subject > to), Traladara itself as the secondary (or "object"). Yes, he does see himself as of princpal importance...see further comments below. > > 3) He puts his individual interests and "vision" ahead of society/"the many". > He views it as his perogative to shape and mold entire nations in his own > image. > > 4) If you go by what Chris says, he sees his role in history as primary - thus > giving him the "right" to behave however he wants in order to achieve his > personal, individual "destiny" as a "Great Man". Lawful "Great Men" achieve > that as an almost accidental by-product of decisions they make based on the > circumstances they confront, rather than going out to deliberately seek a > "Legacy" because one sees themselves deserving of a status of "Greatness". Again, see my comments below. > > 5) resentment towards legitimate authority (he leaves Thyatis at least partly > for this reason - while under its authority, he can't "shape" and "mold" > entire nations; he also desposes of the legitimate Traladaran authorities > right after he arrives in Traladara), recklessness (his decisions regarding > which Thyatians who go to Traladara are given positions by him are, if nothing > else, reckless), irresponsibility (following those reckless appointments, he > just washes his hands of the effects). I don't think it was resentment toward legitimate authority per se, but rather that the Thyatian power structure no longer served his purposes. > > 6) "He is an individualist first and last." "He avoids authority, resents > restrictions, and challenges traditions." - He puts himself first, he makes > the trade so that he can avoid anyone having authority over him while he > pursues his "vision", which consists not only of challenging the traditions of > Traladara but sweeping many of them away. I agree with all your examples, but disagree with your alignment assessment, proabably because I interpret these events differently: "...These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves...." As Stefan did, first in his using his friendhsip with Thincol to trade his inherited stepping-stone, Machetos, in for a semi-autonomous Grand Duchy in which, so long as he retained a veneer of fealty to the Empire (paid his taxes, etc.), he was free to rule almost as a king, draft his own laws, build his own army, etc. "...Structure and oranization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a cleary defined hierarchy between master and servant..." This is obvious. Stefan clearly sees himself as a class above the majority Traladaran population of his lands. "...To this end, [these] characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits [them], too bad..." If the Traladarans lose their culture in Stefan's quest for a legacy, too bad. If Thincol is hurt by his betrayal, too bad. If the people of Machetos suffer for his abandonment of them, too bad. If the people of Halag suffer under his cousin (who is there at his bidding), too bad. "...[They] obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, [they] are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society..." Stefan swore an oath of fealty to Thincol years and years ago, as Duke of Machetos. Now either: 1) he felt that once he was no longer Duke of Machetos, the oath no longer applied, or (more likely) 2) he "re-upped" that oath upon becoming Grand Duke of Traladara, but then, over subsequent years, bolstered the laws of "his" Duchy (as he was allowed to make his own laws) so that, at least under Traladaran law, he was the solely recognized head of state (similar to what Henry VIII did in ruling that he, not the Pope, was head of the Church in England). This permitted him to declare the independence of Traladara - while Stefan broke Thyatian law, he was no longer "Thyatian," so it didn't apply. He didn't break "Karameikan" law, since it revolved around him as head of state anyway. Really legal? No. Technically legal, and enough to give Stefan a basis of justifying his actions? You bet. "...An ironfisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of [these] beings..." [2nd edition PHB, p. 65] Stefan is Lawful Evil. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:17:32 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Skytte" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Quest for butter Shawn J. wrote: > The tale of the butter (on the MML a while back) had me rolling on > the floor (well almost--but it was FUN-E), and I for one would vote for > regular installments of the continuing adventures of the holy oleo! Well, I did send some suggestions regarding the Sacred Butter of Skytte to Giulio (Captain Scaevola). I was under the impression that he might create an adventure or campaign installment about the tale...and if he doesn't, I might post 'the Truth about the Sacred Butter' some day. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk Who's truth I wonder? The truth of those who lost it, or the truth of those who will use it to bring about the inexplicable bounty of the beginning of T time? I have the Grey Earls Flask, the Punnet of Swami Bheerah (pronounced Bear) , the Sacred Butter, and all but one of the mystical cruet, what power can now stand in my way? ;^) Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:18:50 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001115234648.4972.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/15/00 5:46 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >> Yes, I'm sure that Stefan is a "hero" to the >> Traladarans, just as William >> the Bastard was a "hero" to the Saxon commoners of >> England. >> > > Thats patially the point. Stefan is not the hero of > the Traladarans but in a few hundred years, they will > be Karameilan's and so he will be remembered > positively. He will be remembered positively by the power structure he begets. Despite popular belief, the English were hardly united behind William after his invasion. There were plenty of uprisings, and he had to be fairly brutal in his treatment of the Saxons and their more important families, as Stefan with the Traladarans. Only through brutality could he keep his throne. Eventually, though, William, his supporters, and his heirs, won the whole of England. They eliminated the Saxon resistance, and created an atmosphere of French (Norman) elitism at the court which demoted Saxon-speaking commoners to no better than serfs - they could never climb the power structure, since they were inherently outside of it. But the peasants had the last laugh; due to the anti-French feelings of the Hundred Years' War, the English court eventually stopped speaking French, and adopted English as the common tongue of the aristocracy. But you're forgetting one further thing: no matter how weak a claim, William *did* have a claim on the English throne. Stefan had no claim on Traladara. he was given the rule of an Imperial Grand Duchy...that made him a custodian of these Imperial lands, un the Emperor's stead, *not* the rightful ruler of Traladara. (Of course, the Emperor was hardly the rightful ruler, either, further weakening Stefan's "claim.") A side note: I don't disagree with your comparison of the Karameikos situation with Norman-invasion England. In fact, in my interview with Aaron Allston for the Tome of Mystara (#4), he stated that this was his mold for Gaz 1. However, I do think that if you're going to compare Stefan to William, you should get your facts straight, and not generalize. William is a hero because his side "won." Not because he's a hero. He was a usurper who should not have been on the English throne, and who only kept that throne through force (why do you think he built all those fortresses in England? For postcards?). To compare him to Stefan in this regard is accurate. To compare him to Stefan as a "rightful ruler" is dead wrong. >Who was king before william the conquerer? > I can't remember. There were two other claimants to the throne: Harald "Harefoot", who was really the rightful heir; and Harald Hardrada, who was a Danish contender. William let Harefoot beat Hardrada for him, then wiped out his exhausted troops with his superior forces. >But the only reason I would know is > because they were conquered. History is written by the > victors. That doesn't make him a hero of the time but > he will be remembered as a hero in time. 1) Just because you don't remember doesn't mean no one else does. 2) Just because you can be snide in your assurance that only the "winner" counts doens't make it so. 3) Being the strongest doesn't make you a hero. Jenn -- Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:29:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001115235637.6582.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/15/00 5:56 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: >> Ask the people who lived under the Black Eagle Baron >> if they feel better off >> than the Huleans. > > Black egale baron is a baron regardless of where he is > and therefore someone is opressed, it just happens > that he is in Traladara. THIS is NOT Stefan, but one > of those anoying political things. What??? The Black Eagle Baron is a baron regardless of where he is??? Umm, news flash: Ludwig von hendricks is a Baron only because Stefan made hism a Baron. He did not inherit that title - it was granted to him in exchange for an oath of fealty and the payment of feudal obligations, *including* the disposition of the Barony's laws according to Stefan's will. if ludwig no longer had the barony, he would no longer be a baron. It does *not* just happen that he's in Traladara. Were he not in Traladara, under his cousin, he would not be a Traladaran baron. I beg your pardon, but that's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. You *cannot* argue that Stefan was the rightful ruler of Traladara, independent of the Empire (which is exactly what you've been arguing, that Stefan is no traitor to Thyatis because he was no longer a vassal of the Crown), and still say that he had no control over his own vassals, including his Baronial cousin. He gave him the title. Now, either Ludwig broke his oath to Stefan through his brutality, and Stefan should have stripped him of his title, or he was doing Stefan's bidding all along. > >OF course Huleans will be > happier because they are ALREADY accostomed to the > culture whereas the Traladarans are not. So, it's just that the Traladarans haven't been under the boot long enough to learn to love it? Pray tell, if 40 years isn't long enough, what is? > 1. Black Egale So you're saying again that Stefan is not responsible for his vassal's actions? See my answer above. If you're still confused, read your history of the feudal system. >> You make the >> religion appear weak and >> ineffective, and so the children of the natives >> ("New Karameikans") will >> find your own state religion much more attractive. >> > > I find this approch quite acceptable. You can't force > people to change because "you know better" but you can > try to show them and lead them. You can't force them to change, but it's acceptable to destroy everything they hold sacred in order to force them to change? Again, more silliness. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:35:17 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <005701c04f8c$a55068e0$13c4893e@philjones> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/15/00 11:18 PM, mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK wrote: > Traladara was a backward hick nation that was conquered some 70 years before > Stefan took control. When Stefan did take the reigns of power, his vision > was to make these backward lands into a great country that could hold its > head up high along-side the other nations of the Known World. The name > Traladara would still have conjoured up images of the backward wilderness of > seventy years before, so the new nation would have needed a new name, and > what better name than Karameikos? After all, this nation would be, in > essence, his child which he would raise to grow strong and proud. And do you > not give your child your own name????? The image of Traladara as a "backward hick wilderness" has been largely created by Stefan's propagandists (i.e., K:KoA). Traladara was a small nation which was slowly, but surely, coming into its own. The interior was not barren, but settled - by elves. There are portions of many nations which are yet unsettled, such as the Imperial Territories in Thyatis and Alphatia...those are considered "room to grow," and rightfully so. Who would want a fully urbanized fantasy world? But in the case of Traladara, that wilderness makes it "backwards"? Sure, but only because Stefan is supposed to be seen as a "great civilizer." Right. You can't justify an invasion of a sovreign nation just because it doesn't meet your views as "modern enough." Look at all the havoc wreaked upon the many countries of Asia and Africa in the past two centuries by European and American imperialists who "only wanted to 'civilize' the place." If you really want to be quesy, read Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden." Jenn -- The function of fantasy is not so much to make strange things settled, as to make settled things strange. -- G.K. Chesterton ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:35:17 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Mystaran Hex maps In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/16/00 9:14 AM, thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR wrote: > yes of course there is a prog. it's called grid cartography (freeware). > you can get it from my site (www.mystara.com.bi) Is it compatible with Macs? Jenn -- Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: <20001119192805.20776.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/19/00 1:28 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > Hosadus's enemy's = most of the world. > Stefan's enemy's = an already conquered people, and > only the ones that are stupid and stuck in the past so > cannot see potential for future in what is there and > seek to restore the glory of the past which even if > stefan is defeated isn't going to happen. Now wait just a minute there. You cannot brand those Traladarans who are stl opposed to Stefan's illegitimate rule as "stupid." That's ridiculous, and insulting. As for their being "stuck in the past," I would agree with the sentiment, though without the snide implications you convey. Of course the Traldarans are fixated on the past! - they were a sovereign nation, ruled by their own people, and going in a direction they chose. Whether it was as wealthy as Thyatis (it wasn't), as purposeful in its goals as darokin (it wasn't), or as magically rich as Alphatia (it wasn't) is immaterial. Traladara was Traladaran. And it wasn't backwards by any definition (save that of Stefan's later propagandists) - otherwise, Thyatis and Darokin wouldn't have been assessing it as a future threat, and planning invasions. To say that it is stupid for the Traladarasm to hearken back to those days of autonomy is like saying that it's stupid for Native Americans to remember the days before the Europeans came, and before the American cavalry chased them onto reservations. Why shouldn't they remember their own history, take pride in it, and be anxious to reclaim their heritage? > Regardless of who's nicer I think stefan has a better > hope to become a hero. And even if it collaspes after > him I think his name will live. (can you say > Alexandria anyone?) At last you admit that Stefan is more concerned with his own legacy than with the well being of those he rules. Being remembered does not make you a hero. you have a very skewed view of what qualities are admirable in public figures. > > Stefan is more likely to die naturally and be > remembered, Hosadus is more likely to be killed and > Loki move on(after reaping some havoc). Hosadus is > already a hulean hero I don't think it is his current > deads he will be most remembered for. Hosadus will be remembered. It is true that his name may not live on in the manner that Stefan's will -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ , but that is because he is more concerned with serving his Immortal. Stefan is more concerned with serving himself. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:03:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Evil Genius wrote: > >> But because he is also known to be good I would > seggest he cannot be evil either. << > > One of my points, however, is that one can be known > to be good without being good. The same as one can be known for evil without being evil. To take the Bab 5 example, sheridin is portrayed as evil by earth, but is none the less good. > Indeed, personally, having both played and DMed, > I've found that the most compelling villians aren't > the obvious, Ludwig-like Snidely Whiplash types. No, > not at all. The best, most compelling, and most > difficult villians to deal with are the last people > the characters (speaking both as a person who plays > characters and as someone who's DM'ed campaigns) > would suspect. . .and, whom the characters, once > they do come to know the Heart of Darkness, have > difficulty moving against for a variety of reasons > (they discover that the man who is "widely known" to > be a "good king" is actually a coniving bastard who > has been complicit all along in the nasty acts he > supposedly "knew nothing about". But many people the > characters know and respect still see the "kindly > villian" as a good man, and stand ready to defend > him). Oh we are in total agreement here, but my arguement is that it is non-canon and that in canon stefan's alignment is Lawful Neutral. > Now, Stefan's image of a "good King" is belied by > the very canon that strives to create that image - > as we have seen, by not only his inactions but his > actions, his behavior is at variance from that > image. One doesn't have to invent new things to see > him in a different (and, IMO, more accurate) light - > it's already there. This makes him much more > interesting as a villian than two score Ludwigs; and > it makes him much more compelling as a character > than the flat, cardboard-cut-out image of the "good > but befuddled Stefan", too. I would argue that it is possible to make him just as interesting by being lawful neutral. He may not make a good villian then but in canon he is not and I would perffer it to stay that way. The "character" is still important just in a different way. > Indeed, IMO, and it remains IMO, not only are those > who insist (dispite the evidence to the contrary) on > believing that Stefan is good and pure wrong on the > merits, but they're missing campaign oportunities > that no amount of Ludwigs would ever give them. Perhaps it is that stefan "wants" to be good, but cannot actually do it that causes such strife. to quote ben harper, "cause there's good deeds and there is good intention they're as far apart as heaven and hell" Which was always the opinion I had. By a simmilar arguement one could say that a campaign filled with this type of untouchable unseeable evil people would be very interesting, and I don't doubt it but it ain't mystara, it's paranoia. Mystara to me is a world of mostly greys and I like it that way. If you want to use him as a bad guy in your campaign go ahead but don't tell me he *is* chaotic evil, tell me *in your campaign* he is chaotic evil(or whatever). I do understand that to use him like this needs little change from canon but it totally changes how the characters interact with him. If TSR had intended for him to be evil there would be some side note somewhere for DM's about his bad intentions for this or that, and his narsisistic personallity. I havn't seen this anywhere, and do remember the PWA's were written for DM's not players so this is the sort of place you could expect them. :-) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:10:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: What's a Skyshield for? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > In the case of Mystara, it seems like the skyshield > has two functions: > 1: To contain Mystara's atmosphere. > 2: To contain the magic-strong inhabitants of > mystara from too easily being > hurled into the airless void surrounding it. > > This is the impression I always got as well. > Unfortunately it never made much sense for > me. Especially function #1. There is no real need > for it. Mystara has the World Shield > ore, which provides enough gravity to keep Mystarans > on the ground...why wouldn't it keep > the atmosphere on the planet? could it be a side effect of the world sheild ore? I mean perhaps it has a stoping distance to it's effect. This is a magical barrier. The other possibility is mystara has only enough air to cover a certain area above it's surface, and not fill the entire void of the hollow world. Remember it extends to the inside as well. It is really there to keep the atmosphere out of this void. (lots of bad things could happen if the HW sun was in contact with the air.) Any thoughts? Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:11:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/16/00 1:26 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> Exactly. How is it that you manage to put things so much more succinctly >>> than I? :-) << > > Me? Put things succinctly? 8-)~ Well, maybe not so succinctly, but you do have a way of making a point which I envy. :-) > Well, I don't see them as not fighting and killing, but I don't see D&D "Epic > Heroic Fantasy" Paladins as behaving like the Templars; they're more of the > "chivalric ideal" type of figure than the chivalric reality I think. I mean, > their is something to be said for prefering fantasy to reality, especially in > a fantasy RPG. Paladins would have to be "revised" significantly to reflect > the behavior of Templars. True - it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer my heroes to have flaws. Though not flaws as large as dear Stefan's. ;-) >>> bring a homicidal cousin to town, etc.). << > > Yes, but if we're to believe his sycophantic apologists, that's "not Stefan's > fault". No, Ludwig would be a Baron without even a barony, it seems, by that last letter on the subject. He just happens to be in Traladara. ;-)~ > Well, if that were the case, though, then they wouldn't be letting Thyatians > (and, according to DotE, *only* Thyatians) "in on the deal", ceremonially > adopting them and theirby creating the Order of Foresters. After all, the > Thyatians, had they foisted the alliance on the elves, would never have known > that such a thing is even possible (it's not done elsewhere in the Known World > - the Shiye don't create Alphatian Foresters), it would just be a situation > similar to other elves inhabiting various human-dominated lands. Again, this is all IMC. And IMC, the Thyatians did learn about the Foresters (which were Diamarak-dominated guerrilla types protecting the forests), probably from Greenheight clan leader foes. We always had a lot more infighting among the Vyalia clans, and the Thyatians took advantage of it, as makes sense for them to do. The whole treaty had more to do with the Greenheights increasing their power in Vyalia than with any deceit on the part of the Empire. [People with local interests rarely see the big picture. As Carl Hiaasen wrote in last week's _Time_, in regards to allegations of corruption on the Palm beach, Florida, "butterfly" ballot: "The target more likely was some county-commission runoff or maybe a seat on the port authority. That the presidential nominees happened to appear ont he same ballot was merely rotten luck."] Likewise, by opting to make a deal with the Thyatians in order to get themselves titles, the Greenheight lords (and, no doubt, allied clans) sacrificed the integrity of the Foresters. No matter. >So, to me, > along with some of the other references in DotE, this indicates a higher > degree of willing cooperation than found elsewhere, not a compulsory situation > ("elves of the western forests" having participated in the "Struggle for > Freedom". As I said, it depends on how you view the Vyalia. Certainly, the way we portrayed them in our campaign was colored by the biases of a Vyalian PC, who hated the Thyatian overlords, and could never understand how the elves could come to make a deal with the "invaders." >Did you know more Vyalia elves live outside Vyalia than in the > County, or even including all those who live in Karameikos as well? There are > 4,000 elves in the City of Kerendas alone; an additional 4,000 in Port > Lucinius.! That's intriguing; I don't recall seeing those numbers. Then again, I was never too interested in the population of Port Lucinius. My bad. :-) > I just don't see the Vyalians doing the Thyatians any special favors > (sponsoring an Order of Foresters that fights alongside the rest of the > Thyatians against its enemies) if they were forcably absorbed. Not forceably absorbed by the Empire. Forceably abosorbed by the treachery of their own leaders, working in complicity with the Thyatians. That's why the independence movement never took off. > That's possible. I have always figured that the Vyalia elves didn't worry much > about human borders in the area (especially recent & ephemeral ones). After > all, on both sides of the "frontier line" they remain Vyalia elves, having not > split into some other Clan (or joined the Callarii). Makes sense. Jenn -- Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:41:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Mystaran Hex maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i am not sure of it? can you try it and let me know...
i doubt it does but you never know

Jennifer Guerra wrote:
On 11/16/00 9:14 AM, thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR wrote:

yes of course there is a prog. it's called grid cartography (freeware).
you can get it from my site (www.mystara.com.bi)

Is it compatible with Macs?


Jenn


--
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good
with ketchup.

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--
Thibault Sarlat.
ICQ 16622177.
homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr
or at
clenarius@hotmail.com

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:22:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> When you say this what exactly do you meen? In the K:KoA book it states that 95% of the pop. are of "Freeman" class. I would think that counts as being a "Citizen". << That's because you don't know what a Citizen is. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> although he expected their "loyalty" and their complicity in dismantling their culture, << No one's ever really been able to show how Stefan might have earned their loyalty honestly, either. So one does end up with the conclusion that Cult of Personality propaganda is responsible. >> No "Good" ruler could be told these things and not at least investigate, << Exactly. >> a *complete,* drooling idiot who had no business running a country, let alone remaking one in his own image. << Such a person has no business running his own bath water. >> Given that Stefan conducts himself in a seemingly rational manner in other aspects of his life (note that I said rational, not benevolent), I threw out #2. << Yes. In the end, the "he's autistic" excuse that is used at convenient moments to rationalize and exculpate his behavior fails to be convincing, because he manages to see his self interest just fine and seek it unerringly. >> are there any stories of him giving a speech with his breechcloths on over his robes, say?). because no matter how subtle a mental deficiency may be, << Remember that one NY crime boss? I forget his real name, but the guy who pretended to be insensate, walking the streets in his bathrobe and pretending to mutter incomprehensibly when arrested? "The Strangefather" or something, they nicknamed him? But it turned out that the entire time, he was perfectly sound, mentally (well, as mentally sound as any such crime lord can be). Law & Order did an episode take-off on that (btw, you've got to love Law & Order's cheekyness. They bill their stuff as "ripped from the headlines" and then close each episode with the disclamer that "any resemblance to real people, living or dead, is purely coincidental" - yah, right.) >> If you're proposing that Stefan has brain damage, though, please give some evidence, << Remember the X-Files episode, "Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose" I think it was called? Where they're going around with this psychic guy, looking for this serial killer? The serial killer meets up with the psychic guy, and he (the killer) asks him (the psychic guy) why he commits his crimes, and Clyde (the psychic guy)'s answer is so simple: "because you're a homicidal maniac". Why can't Stefan see evil? Because he's a sociopath. Then, when the people rose up against the dupe's abuses, he would ride in and "save" them, rule for a little while, and then take off again, leaving another dupe to use the iron fist in his stead. It worked: he stayed popular, and in power, for a good, long time. >> For someone as narcissistic as Stefan, convinced of his own "destiny," it must have driven him nuts - had the entire royal family been killed, then he could have at least had an equal shot at siezing the throne (and to someone convinced of their own destiny, "long shots" are not deterrents). << I could use a very current real-life example, but I know that would draw. . .controvercy. . . In any case, yes: when someone's been told, and/or come to believe, that they have been born to rule, nothing stands in such a person's way. Such people rarely, if ever, are virtuous or have integrity. Rules are changed when Stefan needs them to be changed. . .all behind a mask of benevolence. >> Yes, and there are also indentured servants, and amazingly, the Iron Ring is allowed to flourish. One has to wonder...did Stefan outlaw slavery because he objects to it, or because he didn't want the wealthy Traladaran families to build themselves private armies? << Well, lets just put it this way: had Stefan really objected to slavery, he would have just freed his own slaves rather than treating them as trade goods. Had he treated them well before freeing them, they might have become some of his earliest supporters (among the Thyatian imigrants. Note, for instance, that Emperor Augustus staffed much of his bureocracy with Freedmen, who's loyalty he counted on, and could count on, for a variety of reasons). Stefan really has no "principled" objection to slavery (faced with a choice between freeing them and getting "nothing" except perhaps gratitude, and using them as trade goods - chattel - he choses the latter). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:04:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: > > > The URL is http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.htlm > > I got an error message: "La pagina che stai cercando non esiste!" The correct one should be http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.html -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:54:36 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:49 11/21/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >No one's ever really been able to show how Stefan might have earned their loyalty honestly, either. So one does end up with the conclusion that Cult of Personality propaganda is responsible. Or an outside agent -- the same one granting the cult spells -- could be responsible. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:04:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment >> I agree with all your examples, but disagree with your alignment assessment, proabably because I interpret these events differently: >> "...These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves...." << I know what you're driving at, and David Knott made a similar (though less full) assesment yesterday (his caviat to this conclusion was along the lines of "if we evaluated his alignment on his behavior in this instance, then it would be" - I forget exactly how he phrased it and I'm to lazy and indolent to go look it up at the moment. My point in response would concur with you, though: these "episodes" aren't isolated, but form one of the characteristic features of his reign, and thus theirfore. . .) However, I have to admit that overall I've been "reluctant" to come right out and assert categorically that Stefan is Evil (though, again, if, as you point out, one looks at his *actions* and evaluates his behavior without bias, it's pretty clear what his behavior indicates as far as alignment. Yes, Lando Molari might, sometimes, do some nice, endearing things, he might even, we could say, be a tragic figure who at many times meant well, especially for his people. But that does not make Lando Molari "Good" or even "Neutral". Indeed, his tragedy is that he is evil, dispite the things one might see as likable in him). I pushed, I admit, "chaotic" (the narcissistic, self-oriented, me above all sort of Chaotic) because I figured it would possibly go over less badly than comming out and saying that "Yes, Stefan is Lawful - Lawful Evil." >> If the Traladarans lose their culture in Stefan's quest for a legacy, << Anything that stands in the way of Stefan's quest for self-agrandizement is disposable. Anything that doesn't directly help him, he's indifferent to (as long as the depridations of Ludwig & the others who are despoiling Traladarans in his name don't threaten Stefan's interests, he's indifferent to what's going on, and doesn't bother himself with it. But we can see how very *fast* and how very *decisive* he can be when a opportunity appears that might be to his benifit. No dithering then. No fussing then. No not being able to notice then. He pounces on issues very quickly when there's something in it for good old Stefan). Now, to Stefan's Sycophants, which is it? Stefan is too indecisive, so we must forgive him for not dealing with things, or Stefan is a dynamic, decisive ruler? Being "blind to things" only when it serves your interest to be blind to them, and having one's eyes wide open every time that's to your advantage is NOT a principled position of a man of integrity. >> Really legal? No. Technically legal, and enough to give Stefan a basis of justifying his actions? You bet. << Similar with the arguments of Stefan's Sycophants as to why he was right to betray Thincol and sell out his homeland: all revolve around technicalities, combined with the same sorts of self-serving rationalizations for evil behavior used by evil people everywhere (in the minds of evil people, those they harm are always seen as deserving it somehow). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:13:01 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Mystaran Hex maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thibault Sarlat wrote: > > >> yes of course there is a prog. it's called grid cartography > >> (freeware). > >> you can get it from my site (www.mystara.com.bi) > >> > > Is it compatible with Macs? > > i am not sure of it? can you try it and let me know... > i doubt it does but you never know Since it is an executable (as an opposite to source code) I don't think you will be able to execute it on anything not compatible with MS-DOS. I don't know whether Macs have a DOS emulation somewhere, unfortunately. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:11:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: =20 >>Well, I did send some suggestions regarding the Sacred Butter of = Skytte to Giulio (Captain Scaevola). I was under the impression that he might = create an adventure or campaign installment about the tale...and if he doesn't, = I might post 'the Truth about the Sacred Butter' some day.<< >=20 > Who's truth I wonder? The truth of those who lost it, or the truth = of > those who will use it to bring about the inexplicable bounty of the > beginning of T time? I have the Grey Earls Flask, the Punnet of Swami > Bheerah (pronounced Bear) , the Sacred Butter, and all but one of the > mystical cruet, what power can now stand in my way? ;^) Let's just say that when you find the Truth, no questions will be = answered...and that's about the only Truth concerning the Sacred Butter = mere beings of the first four-five dimensions will ever learn. Puzzled? = So am I... Perhaps Giulio will shed light on the issue, when he finds = the time. How does this relate to Mystara? I have a feeling that Mystara will = never be the same after facing the incalculable wrath of the Powers at = work here... Jacob Skytte 'He of the Sacred Butter' scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:15:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> (why do you think he built all those fortresses in England? For postcards?). << Of course. He knew that in a millenium or so, they'd make great tourist attractions, so, duh, that's why he built them. >> and Harald Hardrada, who was a Danish contender. << And a former Varangian Guardsman in Constantinople. 8-) >> 3) Being the strongest doesn't make you a hero. << Yah. Another (apt) analogy: Zendrolion "won", he got to write the history books after he sold out and betrayed his friend. Does that make him a pure hero? Seems to be Chris's argument that Stefan can do whatever it takes, so long as he succeeds ("nothing succeeds like success"), he'll be remembered well, and that will validate everything he did and make him a good man. I don't think life works like that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:18:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> So, it's just that the Traladarans haven't been under the boot long enough to learn to love it? << Winston cried as he realized he loved Big Stefan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what >> The same as one can be known for evil without being evil. To take the Bab 5 example, sheridin [sic] is portrayed as evil by earth, but is none the less good. << Right. And President Clark-Stefan, with his "MiniPax" and propaganda arm, is portrayed as good, but is none the less evil. So, Thincol (for example) might be portrayed as doing some dodgy and dubious things (just as Sheridan sometimes did some dodgy things), and be percieved as evil - but that doesn't make him so (only his actions, evaluated over his life, can determine that. Not his image). Similarly, Stefan's actions, not some empty claim of goodness, is what determines what he is. >> Oh we are in total agreement here, but my arguement is that it is non-canon and that in canon stefan's alignment is Lawful Neutral. << In canon, Stefan's behavior is Lawful Evil or Chaotic Neutral (depending on whether you want to see him as a self-centered narcissist who is indifferent to the fates of others, and thus doesn't really care what the consiquences of his appointments and decisions are, as long as he gets what he wants, or someone who's actively planned these things and made these appointments and decisions conciously with the end in mind.) >> Perhaps it is that stefan "wants" to be good, but cannot actually do it that causes such strife. << Londo Molari "wants" to be good, but. . . . >> If TSR had intended for him to be evil there would be some side note somewhere for DM's about his bad intentions for this or that, << Intentions to be good or bad don't matter. His motivations, however, and his actions, are clear. And those are right in the Gaz. I've used examples ONLY from "canon" (no inventions) of what his actions are. So TSR didn't need a "side note" about him - it's DIRECTLY in the materiel. >> and his narsisistic personallity. I havn't seen this anywhere, << It says right in the materiel that he wants to form and mold a nation in his own image. That's narcissistic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:30:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> Or an outside agent -- the same one granting the cult spells -- could be responsible. << Yes, true; could be that someone like Loki/Bozdogan is clouding their judgement and manipulating them into being more loyal to Stefan than he would deserve. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:31:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: The Stalker has left this plane... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, sorry. I guess that should be 'The Stalker has left for another plane' (or even 'The Stalker has left on a plane'). Sorry for getting your hopes up ;) I'll be leaving for five days, so consider this my early christmas present to the list - you won't have to hear a peep from me from five whole days! :) Mind you, once I get back, I'll be getting back to my old evil self - so no jabs at Alphatia while I'm gone, okay! I'll be dealing with that in course! Besides, you all seem busy enough with Stefan anyway ;) - Stalker, the planewalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 17:30 11/21/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >>> Or an outside agent -- the same one granting the cult spells -- could be responsible. << > >Yes, true; could be that someone like Loki/Bozdogan is clouding their judgement and manipulating them into being more loyal to Stefan than he would deserve. Exactly. Maybe whatever Immortal is really hot to plunge Karameikos into more chaos, and sees the Cult as a good agent to stir the pot. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments >> True - it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer my heroes to have flaws. << Well, I like heroes to have flaws, too (cardboard cut-outs are right out for the most part), but there can be a role for Paladin-types amid parties (like that show "Due South", with the Canadian Mountie working with the Chicago PD - the Mountie-guy was pretty Paladin-like. Or what's that show, "Early Sedition", where the guy gets yesterday's paper tommorrow. He's pretty Paladin-like. Of course, that show's "best" {such as they were - don't consider this a full endorsement of either show} episodes were in the early seasons, where the "Paladin-figure" was played off with the weasly guy {the one who wanted to use the paper to get in good bets at the track}, &tc.) Most of these shows ("Stalker*: Texas Deranger" is another one) *("Stalker" in this instance not to be confused with our own Stalker, but is that guy who used to play a villian in Bruce Lee movies. Where was I? Oh, yah:) most of these shows are basically homilies for children (for the rest of us, there's a reason why JR ! ! Ewing was always a more interesting character than Bobby, much less that weakling Gary). Now, there are certainly times when noble heroism opposed to vile villany is appropriate, usually tragic instances (King Arthur & the Knights of the Round Table vs. Mordred's hordes. The valiant Thyatians holding off the despoiling hordes of Alphatia, etc). >> No, Ludwig would be a Baron without even a barony, it seems, by that last letter on the subject. He just happens to be in Traladara. ;-)~ << Yah. . .well, there are clearly "have one's cake and eat it too" arguments going on. . .I've already talked about double-standards in these contexts, though. >> The whole treaty had more to do with the Greenheights increasing their power in Vyalia than with any deceit on the part of the Empire. << Ok. >> [People with local interests rarely see the big picture. As Carl Hiaasen wrote in last week's _Time_, in regards to allegations of corruption on the Palm beach, Florida, "butterfly" ballot: "The target more likely was some county-commission runoff or maybe a seat on the port authority. That the presidential nominees happened to appear ont he same ballot was merely rotten luck."] << [Well, that's not really accurate regarding that, either, except for the rotten luck part. The balot was designed by a Democratic election commissioner, and the reason it was designed as it is was so that the same "confused" old people would be presented with larger type, more readable. We could also discuss why, if Palm Beach is the issue, certain other selected Counties were drawn in for recount versions. And we might also discuss black-letter law on what constitutes a properly cast vote. But we digress. People may insist upon opening up this can of worms for further discssion, but I'll warn that if that happens the response will make discussions about Alphatia look like a church social.] In any case, I like these lists because fantasy is a welcome distraction, if only momentarily, from the wickedness, deciet, and perfidy found in real life. For some reason, the wickedness, deciet, and perfidy of fantasy characters and realms is just so much more relaxing a topic of discussion. So lets, please, stick with that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Okay, I've let this thread ride and ride without throwing in the gauntlet, but I'm really tired of this demonizing of Duke Stefan. It is clear from the character description of Stefan Karameikos and his listed alignment that he is Lawful Neutral. Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference between good or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a result of your actions. To illustrate, think about this question: Which boy is more "bad": a boy who deliberately throws a dish on the floor to break it, or a boy who is helping his parents wash the dishes and accidentally drops four dishes? Canon gives the results of his actions (or inaction) without ascribing intent to them. It's expected that you interpolate his intent with his alignment: Lawful Neutral. Jenn and Evil Genius are not doing this. That's their choice in their campaigns, of course, but the statements being made imply that only this view of the materials is reasonable and correct. I heartily disagree. I think it is /not/ incompatible to keep both his alignment and the events as listed in canon materials. Also, I think there has been too much made of Karameikos' character flaw: that he just doesn't believe some people are as evil as others say. That is an interesting and reasonable character flaw. It's his cousin we're talking about, here, afterall, and he hasn't seen any real evidence. It's likely he sent investigators and inquired after his cousin from time-to-time about rare allegations (that he didn't believe in the first place), but Von Hendriks rules with an iron fist, completely controlling information, and he has a fairly powerful wizard working with him to keep information from reaching the Duke's ear. None of that would imply incompetence. He's working with the information he has. BTW: Another point that has been kind of missed: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos /was/ made a separate, sovereign nation as part of the original deal with Thicol. I have a few more points on the thread that I'd like to answer, but I have to jet. I'll see if I have some time tonight to reply again. -Auld Skald Quoting Evil Genius : > >> although he expected their "loyalty" and their complicity in > dismantling their culture, << > > No one's ever really been able to show how Stefan might have earned > their loyalty honestly, either. So one does end up with the conclusion > that Cult of Personality propaganda is responsible. > > >> No "Good" ruler could be told these things and not at least > investigate, << > > Exactly. > > >> a *complete,* drooling idiot who had no business running a country, > let alone remaking one in his own image. << > > Such a person has no business running his own bath water. > > >> Given that Stefan conducts himself in a seemingly rational manner in > other aspects of his life (note that I said rational, not benevolent), I > threw out #2. << > > Yes. In the end, the "he's autistic" excuse that is used at convenient > moments to rationalize and exculpate his behavior fails to be > convincing, because he manages to see his self interest just fine and > seek it unerringly. > > > >> are there any stories of him giving a speech with his breechcloths on > over his robes, say?). because no matter how subtle a mental deficiency > may be, << > > Remember that one NY crime boss? I forget his real name, but the guy who > pretended to be insensate, walking the streets in his bathrobe and > pretending to mutter incomprehensibly when arrested? "The Strangefather" > or something, they nicknamed him? > > But it turned out that the entire time, he was perfectly sound, mentally > (well, as mentally sound as any such crime lord can be). Law & Order did > an episode take-off on that (btw, you've got to love Law & Order's > cheekyness. They bill their stuff as "ripped from the headlines" and > then close each episode with the disclamer that "any resemblance to real > people, living or dead, is purely coincidental" - yah, right.) > > >> If you're proposing that Stefan has brain damage, though, please give > some evidence, << > > Remember the X-Files episode, "Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose" I think it > was called? Where they're going around with this psychic guy, looking > for this serial killer? The serial killer meets up with the psychic guy, > and he (the killer) asks him (the psychic guy) why he commits his > crimes, and Clyde (the psychic guy)'s answer is so simple: > > "because you're a homicidal maniac". > > Why can't Stefan see evil? > > Because he's a sociopath. > > > Then, when the people rose up against the dupe's > abuses, he would ride in and "save" them, rule for a little while, and > then > take off again, leaving another dupe to use the iron fist in his stead. > It > worked: he stayed popular, and in power, for a good, long time. > > >> For someone as narcissistic as Stefan, convinced of his own > "destiny," it must have driven him nuts - had the entire royal family > been killed, then he could have at least had an equal shot at siezing > the throne (and to someone convinced of their own destiny, "long shots" > are not deterrents). << > > I could use a very current real-life example, but I know that would > draw. . .controvercy. . . > > In any case, yes: when someone's been told, and/or come to believe, that > they have been born to rule, nothing stands in such a person's way. Such > people rarely, if ever, are virtuous or have integrity. Rules are > changed when Stefan needs them to be changed. . .all behind a mask of > benevolence. > > >> Yes, and there are also indentured servants, and amazingly, the Iron > Ring is allowed to flourish. One has to wonder...did Stefan outlaw > slavery because he objects to it, or because he didn't want the wealthy > Traladaran families to build themselves private armies? << > > Well, lets just put it this way: had Stefan really objected to slavery, > he would have just freed his own slaves rather than treating them as > trade goods. Had he treated them well before freeing them, they might > have become some of his earliest supporters (among the Thyatian > imigrants. Note, for instance, that Emperor Augustus staffed much of his > bureocracy with Freedmen, who's loyalty he counted on, and could count > on, for a variety of reasons). Stefan really has no "principled" > objection to slavery (faced with a choice between freeing them and > getting "nothing" except perhaps gratitude, and using them as trade > goods - chattel - he choses the latter). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:43:39 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Iain Reid Subject: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, as I said I am new around here but already I am intrigued by this debate you are having on Mr Karameikos. I disagree however, I think he is good. But I may have missed some major points by joining in half way. I'll try and summerise what I got. You folks are saying Stefan is evil because [a]: he cannot be so stupid as to not see what the Black Baron is doing, therefore he must understand it and condone it in someway (possibly using Ludvig as a scape goat). [b]: his desire to found a nation goes without thought to what happens to the old Traladians to the extent of being manipulative. [c]: he is completely convinvced of his own destiny and prepared to go to any means to get it. [d]: it makes him a more interesting character is that it or have i missed other things? anyway, I disagree with the above - all three of them. firstly, [a], he *is* that stupid. except it isn't stupidity. think of it as cultural deficiency. he simply cannot grasp that his own freind and cousin has a black as black heart. he might pass off actions that Ludvig does as being due to a fit of anger or depression thinking "after all, everyone gets upset sometimes". he might be worried that his cousin isn't as good at ruling as he (or so he thinks, he is after all convinced he was born to aid people by ruling). perhaps he thinks the baron lacks the wisdom and foresight needed to handle leadership. whatever, the point is he makes up excuses for his cousin and then *convinces himself* that they are true. its not really stupidity just an unwillingness or inability to face up to the facts. no brain damage, no evil agenda going on. moving on to [b]. it may be true that he is destroying a culture through the founding of Karameikos but this does not prohibit him from being good. (there is no prime directive for good people :) he honestly belives that the new culture he is founding has better value and better moral standards and a higher quality of living etc.. etc... and in this sense will benefit the people more than the old ways. he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) life not hurt them. this is not evil behavior. as for the accusations of propeganda a manuipulation, i feel these are slightly exaggerated. i don't see Stefan as a machine of Spin, even if he has recently learned a little about real politik. any misleading here is likely to be the act of ministers and such lower down the ranks. king stefan: "go and spread the word about the glory of my church and how it will help people to live better than before". minister "yes my lord, I will put 100 men onto it. why don't you relax - here's the butter you asked for". finally [c], that his predestination views extend to acts of evil. I'm not sure what acts here are being cited in evidence of this. if it his simply his slightly less niave style of diplomacy than when he was a duke then - nahhh. being a good diplomat does not make you evil even if you have to tell a few porkies. and finally [d] that an evil Stefan is more interesting than an evil Ludvig and a Good Stefan put together. this may be the case, and if DMs want to play it that way, go right ahead. just because it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. :) basically a lot of the arguments for his evil behavior seem to be "oh he is telling lies - monster!" or "oh he is hurting (in some way) some people - villan!" not so. good characters can tell lies and any people disadvantaged he belives is in the name of the common good, that is to create a glorious nation where people can live in happiness and prosperity etc... whether or not he is causing more harm than good is not the point (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is causing more good makes him good. cheers, -Iain _________________________________________________________ The first ten million years, they were the worst. And the second ten million years, they were the worst too. After that it went into a bit of a decline. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> You folks are saying Stefan is evil because << I'm saying he's not a good ruler. He is NOT "Good King Stefan". That's very clear. >> firstly, [a], he *is* that stupid. except it isn't stupidity. think of it as cultural deficiency. he simply cannot grasp that his own freind and cousin has a black as black heart. << Right there, that destroys any possibility that he could be considered a good ruler. But you, like many of those arguing on Stefan's behalf, create a somewhat distorted picture because you leave out a major aspect here. Ludwig is *not* the sole example of bad behavior by persons Stefan brought with him and empowered - he's just the worst of the lot. As the Gaz (and K:KoA) says: "Many of the Thyatian settlers who poured into the country, swearing loyalty to Duke Stefan and receiving land grants, were ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them." Now, some of Stefan's apologists have claimed, without evidence, that Stefan left Thyatis to get away from this sort of thing (and given this as a reason why Stefan "couldn't" free his own slaves and bring them with him, because he wanted to "cut his ties" to Bad Thyatis) - except here we see that HE brings these bad things with him. . .and then is indifferent to them, and the consiquences of his apointments (as one of Stefan's *admirers* said, Stefan isn't concerned about the taking care of the Traladarans, he's solely concerned with ruling them). Now, to those affected, it simply doesn't matter one way or another whether Stefan lets this despoilation, rapine, and murder go on because he has some concious plan for which despoilation, rapine, and murder form a part (I.E. to destroy pre-existing Traladaran institutions so that he can replace them with his "vision", for one possible reason) OR whether he lets these things occur and takes no action because he has some deep-seeted character deficiency that makes him unable to percieve these things and take a stand against them. In either case, the outcome is the same. And in either case, Stefan is not a good King. >> he might pass off actions that Ludvig does as being due to a fit of anger or depression thinking "after all, everyone gets upset sometimes". << Yes, he might rationalize it "so? Everyone gets upset and murders a few peasants sometimes. No big deal, they're only Traladarans." But I don't see how that would make Stefan good. >> the point is he makes up excuses for his cousin and then *convinces himself* that they are true. << And that, my friend, is poor leadership at best. In the most generous interpretation possible, it means that Stefan *might* be a decient sort of fellow, just not the kind of fellow one would want handling a great deal of responsibility (NOT a good King or good ruler). The most generous interpretation of this "deep character flaw" is that it qualifies him to be a fine dinner guest, but disqualifies him for any position of authority. See my earlier mails for reference to this argument (I made this argument, this was my position early on, before I re-read the materiel dealing with Stefan, and came to the same conclusion J.F.G. did: that no one who is able to see his own interest when it suits him could fail to see it in these other cases, without actively insisting upon a "failure to percieve" that is complicit and culpable - he does take action on things that he wants to, very decisively percieving and siezing oportunities when they are in his interest - but he actively refuses ! ! to act in these other cases, cases where a Good King would definately take very decisive action. But Stefan doesn't care). >> it may be true that he is destroying a culture through the founding of Karameikos but this does not prohibit him from being good. (there is no prime directive for good people :) he honestly belives that the new culture he is founding has better value and better moral standards and a higher quality of living etc..<< And that no one else's (including, especially, the targets of his "vision") opinion matters, and that those who stand in the way are to be crushed. This is not a "good" action. Note also that when "canon" describes Stefan's intentions (in the DM's section) it DOES NOT SAY "Stefan wanted to rule a nation shaped by justice and formed in the image of virtue" it says "Stefan wanted to rule a nation shaped by his own hands and formed in his own image" - Stefan's project was a narcissistic one, not one guided by standards of virtue and concern for the welfare of others. Stefan's concern was for his welfare (alone), and his desires, his wishes, his wants. LE people are certainly like that, as are Chaotic Neutral ones. >> he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) life not hurt them. << Prove it. His actions belie such an assertion. He wants to HELP his followers to the lands of others (he doesn't step in to stop despoilations, because it doesn't benifit him one way or the other). By the way, a lot of evil, despotic things have been done in the name of "forcing people to be better" - forcing one's "vision" on others against their will is not an act of goodness. It is an act of totalitarian despotism, responsible for millions of deaths. >> just because it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. << And canon is what I have indicated. I notice that I take my examples straight out of canon, while those who are asserting that Stefan is a good king have hardly ever done so - they have few examples, and only isolated ones. The examples I give form the very foundation (handing out lands to rapacious followers, sparking then crushing a rebellion) of his reign, and form the very backdrop of the bulk of his reign (turning a blind eye - for whatever excuse - to acts of wickedness - mainly because it would be inconvenient for him to act, but, again, he proves he can, if and when it benifits him, be very dynamic when he wants to be), and that the foundation of his Kingdom (as opposed to Duchy) is based on an act of betrayal of a friend which is not morally different in any substantive way from the foundation of the Empire (as opposed to Kingdom) that he left. And you yourself admit that Stefan has a deep seated and severe character flaw that resulted in the suffering and death of untold numbers of the people he was responsible for, over a period of not less than thirty five years. This is proof positive that Stefan is not a good ruler. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference between good or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a result of your actions. << No. Intentions are only part of the matter. >> To illustrate, think about this question: Which boy is more "bad": a boy who deliberately throws a dish on the floor to break it, or a boy who is helping his parents wash the dishes and accidentally drops four dishes? << To the persons who die as a result of Stefan's feckless apointments and refusal to correct his errors, the result is the same. Now, what do we think of someone who commits a grave error (say, accidentally killing someone - that's closer to what we're talking about here than "broken dishes"), but refuses to aknowlege that anything he did resulted in that death, refuses to rectify the problem, and indeed alows it to continue resulting in more deaths? The first one might be an accident. Beyond that, the refusal to aknowlege that one's decisions has created a problem - that's no longer in the category of "accident". Letting it go on for thirty five years. . . .at some point, someone who refuses to take responsibility for the consiquence of their own decisions has shown themselves to be deficient in character. Culpable, even. >> Canon gives the results of his actions (or inaction) without ascribing intent to them. It's expected that you interpolate his intent with his alignment: Lawful Neutral. << You're wrong about at least one thing in the above. Two, really. I'm going to let you find out what. But I'm going to make a point about it, obliquely: TSR has not been very good at applying their own alignments. In a FR product, for example (Lands of Intrigue), a certain character (Zaranda Star) is described as being very, very concerned with restoring order to a certain region (Tethyr), as well as concerned with putting the needs of the society first, in matters of consistant justice/law, and other Lawful Good traits. She is then assigned an alignment of Chaotic Good. The actions, behavior, and motivations ascribed to her are almost a perfect checklist of the Lawful Good alignment, but then they assign her the alignment "Chaotic Good". Go figure. >> It's his cousin we're talking about, here, afterall, and he hasn't seen any real evidence. << Again with the attempt to claim that "its only Ludwig, his cousin" - again, wrong: Ludwig wasn't the only such person, as the Gaz says "WORST among them was Duke Stefan's own cousin, Baron Ludwig 'Black Eagle' von Hendricks." Now, those of you who want to see Stefan as the font of goodness can, in YOUR campaigns, pretend that Ludwig was the sole blemish on an otherwise unvarnished record of goodness and good apointments, but you're (not me) the ones who are distorting the "canon" when you do so, all the while claiming that I am. >> It's likely he sent investigators and inquired after his cousin from time-to-time about rare allegations << Give an example of such an instance when Stefan sent out investigators. Sure, people like Sasha of Luln tried to tell Stefan what was going on in Halag, but he refused to listen to her warnings or investigate them. Again: refusing to see things when you don't want to be bothered with the facts does not make one a good ruler. Indeed, it's very clear that when Stefan wanted to take decisive action (which was on those occasions when it benifited him to do so), he could and did. Those occasions that merely had to do with the welfare of his subjects? Then all the sudden he has this "blindness" weakness. . . And then his admirers claim that this person, who they admit is insensate, is a good ruler. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:42:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Mystara�s Map Navigator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello everybody I added a new map to the Mystara�s Map Navigator. It despicts northern Ethengar and the Glantri/Wendar/Heldann border. Check it ou at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/7983/ Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:47:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Bengarian�s Hermitage (Wendar) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In the process of building map�s to my site I came across this estrange tower in eastern Wendar named Bengarian Hermitage. Does anybody knows of any canon reference to it? Has it anything to do with Bensarian (who gave the elvenstar to the king)? And (since I probably don�t have the reference anyway), what�s it? Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:09:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello, Mystarans! Its been a long time since I've been on this list so I'm rather pleased to rejoin and find my personal favorite area of the Known World a hot topic of discussion. Or, at least, its king :) At 11/21/00 11:56 AM, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >It was also obvious to me that the native people of >this land, the Traladarans, were being sytematically stripped of their >culture, as evidenced in K:KoA in the push for "New Karameikans" (which >seemed to me to be similar to the old push for a generation of "New >Soviets," or - though in less malignant ways, admittedly - the Hitler >Youth). Hmm, that's an interesting position. Not that there's a push to establish a new people but to compare it to Soviets or Nazis. I think that's a bit extreme (because everyone is supposed to recognize those as evil). Living in the United States of America, I have to say I see just a tad bit of my country's history in this and I usually don't associate it with Hitler. Then when I think about it more, I see the history of every country on earth having such skeletons in their countries. Is this evil? Only if its your culture being destroyed. But where does this leave the true Karameikans (though born with Traladaran and Thyatian parents)? Do they belong to the evil Thyatians or to the good Traladarans? Or are both Thyatians and Traladarans evil in some way that they should step aside and allow the true inheritors of Karameikos take their place? To them, I'd hazard to guess Stefan is a good man who made difficult choices because it will be their culture that will truly rule the land. >Another great example from the boxed set of this systematic >undermining of Traladaran culture was the "Thyatian" (really, "Karameikan") >interpretation of everything Traladaran: the traditional painting of Halav >and the Beast-King is re-done in a Thyatian style and praised to the high >heavens as "better"; the Song of Halav is called a "myth" from that point of >view as well. Now I may be wrong (I could check the books but where's the thrill of living dangerously there?) but did Stefan commission the new painting? And why, if he'd rather Traladarans to consider the Song of Halav a myth, would he practically embrace it by paying homage to this myth? As far as I remember, Stefan has never actually made his position known. The only facts we have on Stefan personally is the way he perceives his family. We can't use his appointing of Thyatians to positions of power since few people (whether king or not) will trust people they don't know and he has every reason to believe the Traladarans would work against him simply because he is Thyatian. He does tour the kingdom every year but that's not a good measurement of concern for Traladarans since he could just be checking up on his nobles. So, we really don't know how Stefan feels about the Traladarans but its probably reasonable that he would hold a lot of the feelings other Thyatians do. But how does Olliver Jowett feel? Is he evil? Stefan is a close friend, I believe, and don't people's friends usually hold the same values as they do? >No "Good" ruler could be told these things and not at least >investigate, send a few spies, send an Elvenguard "escort" for Cousin >Ludwig, whatever. Wait a second. Wasn't one of the reasons Ludwig was so successful in his tyranny that he was able to keep the king in the dark? Its always been my understanding that Stefan didn't hear anything about Ludwig that he didn't hear about every other Thyatian noble. In this sense, Traladarans actually helped Ludwig by making false accusations on other Thyatian nobles. Add to that Stefan's predisposition to believe no one in his family could even imagine such things and you have a king unknowingly making a mistake. I could even imagine a messenger arriving with proof of Ludwig's deeds being told by an advisor that the king is much too busy to investigate every one of his nobles and that accusing the king's cousin of such evil borders on treason. >Yes, but there's that Church of Karameikos. This is *not* the Thyatian >religious tradition, with many Immortals venerated as one pleases, but a >State church, dedicated to the dry, lip-service "worship" of a few Thyatian >patrons, under the watchful eye of the *real* patron, Stefan. Are you sure? Now, my idea of the Church of Karameikos is probably way out in left field but I've never been able to nail down which Immortals are worshipped. Even if any Immortals are worshipped. I can't say exactly how it agrees or disagrees with Thyatian tradition. The Church of Traladara is much more developed in at least knowing which Immortals are venerated. And the Church of Karameikos is different in some way from Thyatian but I don't think its given. >Yes, or in Halag. Methinks that Cousin Ludwi did more in those years than >murder people...they would have all been dead. What was he *really* doing >out there? Fortifying the border against the Hin...why? Because the Hin were >old friends with the Callarii and Traladarans, and might come to their >rescue? Stomping out Traladaran sites - what do you think Fort Doom is built >upon? Working with the Iron Ring to sell troublemakers into slavery - if the >peasants didn't disappear, who did? (hint: there are no major Traladaran >clans in Halag after the Black Eagle years). Some of that may well be true. But which?! :) For me, Stefan is a good king. In D&D terms, I would classify him as Lawful Neutral with good tendencies. I think the character is undetailed enough that he can be whatever I would like him to be. I think I could argue that his favorite color is red and might even think I can prove it. That really doesn't make his favorite color red to anyone but me :) Nice to be back! -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:15:16 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Traladaran holy sites? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001121102139.007d4180@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/21/00 12:21 PM, Beau wrote: > Could someone point me to canonical information about this? I'm > going to >be using Krakatos as a major setting in the spring (I've given up on doing >more than just a few intermediate Mirros adventures in December) and I'm >making plans on how the ruins will come into play. All I've got is Jeff >Grubb's article on Krakatos and KKoA (and JA, for what that's worth) ... I believe Krakatos was Halav's capital (and/or the site of his death). -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:24:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Bargle Death In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001121102549.007ce5c0@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/21/00 12:25 PM, Beau wrote: > And when you're talking about a genocidal sociopath like Bargle, > executing >him on the spot for his well-documented crimes seems only logical, >especially as you likely won't get a second chance to do it. I think part of it would be are you positive this is the real Bargle. Part of court proceedings is to prove not only that the accused is guilty of his crimes but is the actual criminal. I read a novel (fiction) that dealt with Hitler faking his death and the only reason I think it worked is that Hitler never stood trial. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:33:33 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/21/00 03:49 PM, Evil Genius wrote: >Well, lets just put it this way: had Stefan really objected to slavery, he >would have just freed his own slaves rather than treating them as trade goods. That's what I've wondered about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson who only freed their slaves in their wills :) Stefan could have freed them before going through with the trade, I suppose. Don't know if they were considered part of the "assets" but I assume so. But in Thyatis, slave is a social standing (I hope I'm getting this right) so it may not have been a concern if they were remaining in Thyatis. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:48:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/21/00 04:04 PM, Evil Genius wrote: >Yes, Lando Molari might, sometimes, do some nice, endearing things, he >might even, we could say, be a tragic figure who at many times meant well, >especially for his people. But that does not make Lando Molari "Good" or >even "Neutral". Indeed, his tragedy is that he is evil, dispite the things >one might see as likable in him). I've been enjoying watching some old Babylon 5 shows (and they've just entered into the Shadow War plot) and if you talking about Lando in D&D alignment terms, I'd have to disagree. But then when D&D alignments are concerned, I see any complex character as Neutral :) >Similar with the arguments of Stefan's Sycophants as to why he was right >to betray Thincol and sell out his homeland: all revolve around >technicalities, combined with the same sorts of self-serving >rationalizations for evil behavior used by evil people everywhere (in the >minds of evil people, those they harm are always seen as deserving it somehow). I think Stefan didn't agree with Thyatian culture or at least what it had become. He took what he thought was good about Thyatis to bring to Karameikos. No slavery for Karameikos to struggle with. A national church that took the best of the Church of Thyatis. Improvements to the infrastruction of the nation. Those are the things I can think of at the moment. And I think he was/is expecting the Traladarans to join him in the creation of the new nation. Which I think he is getting to some degree. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:57:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/21/00 04:15 PM, Evil Genius wrote: >Seems to be Chris's argument that Stefan can do whatever it takes, so long >as he succeeds ("nothing succeeds like success"), he'll be remembered >well, and that will validate everything he did and make him a good man. > >I don't think life works like that. But life does work like that at times. Its a common saying that the winner gets to write the history books. Doesn't mean the actual winner does the writing. Only that his bad qualities will be played down while his good qualities played up by contemporary writers. In the current day, we call those spin doctors. I would predict when the US president election is decided, everyone will be talking about how the winner did such and such right while the loser did this and that wrong :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:17:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Jennifer Guerra 's message of Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:56:14 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Have some of you not read Gaz 1? Stefan traded Machetos for "clear, autonomous title" to the lands of Traladara. He owed no fealty to Thincol once the deed was done. He was king of Karameikos in all but name. He did sign treaties of friendship, however. No mention was made of Karameikos being obligated to support Thyatis at war. And as for Ludwig, Stefan didn't know he was evil. Stefan didn't know that Ludwig had been trying to kill him for years. All he knew was that he was a relative. Stefan is no spellcaster, he can't cast detect evil and he has no reason for another to do so, especially when Ludwig was acting all faithful and loyal. On a final note, Stefan was young when he made the deal. Even though he and Olivia were betrothed, she refused to marry him until he had proven himself either worthy, or a "lunatic boy with big dreams". Young people are allowed to make foolish or unwise decisions, thats how they learn. Think about the decisions Stefan made after the early years. Smart decisions, ones that made Karameikos stronger and better. Can someone enlighten me as to the distinction between "Citizen" and "Freeman", as far as I can tell, there is no difference. I've been wondering if all the Stefan bashers hate Azoun and Cormyr too. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:19:01 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will step into the ring on this. > Have some of you not read Gaz 1? Stefan traded Machetos for "clear, > autonomous title" to the lands of Traladara. He owed no fealty to > Thincol once the deed was done. He was king of Karameikos in all but > name. He did sign treaties of friendship, however. No mention was made > of Karameikos being obligated to support Thyatis at war. > Yes we have read GAZ1. I am reading page 13 right now, third column, fourth paragraph down. "Both rulers signed decrees of eternal friendship and mutual defense in times of invasion". Yes, the Emperor recognized Traladara as sovereign under Stefan, but Stefan was under obligation to help defend Thyatis. > Young people are allowed to make foolish or unwise decisions, thats how > they learn. > Nothing was unwise about signing a mutual defense treaty with Thyatis in 970 AC. It was the smart thing to do. If anyone would need help with defense at that time, it was Stefan. > > Think about the decisions Stefan made after the early years. Smart > decisions, ones that made Karameikos stronger and better. > You are correct, when he was older and more mature, he betrayed Thyatis, which was a very smart decision. His country avoided fighting Alphatia, and got a magic school out of it. In the short term, it was very smart, long term remains to be seen. But breaking treaties when convenient isn't what is commonly known as "good" alignment. > > Can someone enlighten me as to the distinction between "Citizen" and > "Freeman", as far as I can tell, there is no difference. > Freeman in Karameikos versus citizen in Thyatis? both can own property and will it to heirs and marry whom they choose, both cannot be punished without trial, citizens in Thyatis can vote in elections(are there any in Karameikos?), freeman in Karameikos can act as a judge when trying someone up to court lord status > > I've been wondering if all the Stefan bashers hate Azoun and Cormyr too. > I can't speak for the others, but yes, I do hate Azoun and Cormyr. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:43:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Seems to be Chris's argument that Stefan can do > whatever it takes, so long as he succeeds ("nothing > succeeds like success"), he'll be remembered well, > and that will validate everything he did and make > him a good man. Yes that does sound like one of my arguements, and you understood it mostly right. Except the last bit should read like this: "he'll be remembered well, and that will justify everything he did" Not make him a good or evil man. Just a man with a dream. To me He just *does* not understand the suffering of another culture, thus cannot care. I might be slightly biased in this matter, but I believe that if stefan did understand things may have been different. I do think his stats at starflung are reasonable, even if not fully acurate and nothing I have seen in these posts has made me question that stefan is a lawful character wanting to be good, but also to be great at the same time. I still propose lawful-neutral for a canon standing. I know there's a couple of people who have a real problem with these idea's, but hey, were working on a conclution. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 02:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Eustace Subject: Alfheim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hey Stalker, There's a pretty good timeline by Fabrizio Paoli and Herv� Musseau on the whole SE invasion. Here's the link to Shawn's site: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/invasion.html Some PCs IMC are going through this same thing right now, too. I combined some stuff from the timeline with some things from GAZ 5 (Grand Tour, Egg of the Phoenix, Root of the Trouble, etc.). They had some success stopping the most serious consequences of the Plot, and they are planning on infiltrating the SE lands, next. The fate of Alfheim is still very much up in the air. If you want any more info, e-mail me off list: daniel.eustace.b@bayer.com. One of my players is on the list and I don't want to give anything away. Later, Dan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:52:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Keyser wrote: > >> Can someone enlighten me as to the distinction between "Citizen" and >> "Freeman", as far as I can tell, there is no difference. Freemen have civil rights, but not political rights. > Freeman in Karameikos versus citizen in Thyatis? both can own property > and will it to heirs and marry whom they choose, both cannot be punished > without trial, Though the freemen of Karameikos can be sentenced without trial by the Duke or the Duchess. > citizens in Thyatis can vote in elections(are there any in > Karameikos?), No, at least not in the larger communities -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:55:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bengarian=B4s?= Hermitage (Wendar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ricardo Matheus wrote: > In the process of building map�s to my site I came across this estrange > tower in eastern Wendar named Bengarian Hermitage. > > Does anybody knows of any canon reference to it? X11, Saga of the Shadowlord > Has it anything to do with Bensarian (who gave the elvenstar to the king)? > And (since I probably don�t have the reference anyway), what�s it? Actually, it is not a tower, but an hermitage, a small cavern modified to serve as home for the sage Bensarian of Kevar. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.