========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:13:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Traladaran holy sites? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001121102139.007d4180@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Beau wrote: > I tuned out the Stephan-is-the-embodiment of evil conversations (sorry, > but along with Alphatia/Thyatis and how to convert elves to 3E, there's > only so much I can take of the subject) but ... Fort Doom, Krakatos and > Kelvin are over Traladaran holy sites? Huh? > Could someone point me to canonical information about this? I'm going to > be using Krakatos as a major setting in the spring (I've given up on doing > more than just a few intermediate Mirros adventures in December) and I'm > making plans on how the ruins will come into play. All I've got is Jeff > Grubb's article on Krakatos and KKoA (and JA, for what that's worth) ... Gaz 1 is what you are looking for. I never heard about Ft Doom being a holy site. Krakatos was the village where the battle between the Beastmen (Gnolls) and Halav was fought. Kelvin is built on the ruins of Lavv, the Halav's home town. This is more or less all the information you can get from canon AFAIK. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:17:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bengarian=B4s?= Hermitage (Wendar) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Ricardo Matheus wrote: > In the process of building map�s to my site I came across this estrange > tower in eastern Wendar named Bengarian Hermitage. > > Does anybody knows of any canon reference to it? > Has it anything to do with Bensarian (who gave the elvenstar to the king)? > And (since I probably don�t have the reference anyway), what�s it? I think its a typo. It is located more or less where Bensarians hermitage is described to be in the Module. It is possible that the typo has canon origins, but I'm pretty sure that the guy is called Bensarian and not Bengarian. IIRC I seem to remember reading that the placen is a village which has grown up around that sage's home. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:19:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bengarian=B4s?= Hermitage (Wendar) In-Reply-To: <3A1B89EC.6080201@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: > to serve as home for the sage Bensarian of Kevar. Interesting. I never noticed his last name. What is Kevar then? Probably his home town or village. Any ideas where it should be located? Heldann perhaps? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:27:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bengarian=B4s?= Hermitage (Wendar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit H�vard wrote: > On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: > > >> to serve as home for the sage Bensarian of Kevar. > > > Interesting. I never noticed his last name. > What is Kevar then? Probably his home town or village. Any ideas where it > should be located? Heldann perhaps? The Kevar Hills are the hills in the region around the hermitage, IIRC. There might be a village/town with that name too. The map in X11 isn't especially accurate. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:08:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mzilikazi Subject: Re: Quest for butter In-Reply-To: <001e01c053ef$b42cd4e0$979130d5@pauldool> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who's truth I wonder? The truth of those who lost it, or the truth of > those who will use it to bring about the inexplicable bounty of the > beginning of T time? I have the Grey Earls Flask, the Punnet of Swami > Bheerah (pronounced Bear) , the Sacred Butter, and all but one of the > mystical cruet, what power can now stand in my way? ;^) > Hah! You'll have to get through me (and a swarm of level-draining wights) to get to the Marmelade Jar of The Ancients and the Ming Tea Cup, both of which are resting securely in a safe location. Where the flying saucer of the planes, the golden tea spoon of the Bodhisattvas and the vorpal butter knife (you'll need that to cut through the sacred butter)are, I still haven't found out Coffee drinkers of Mystara, unite to save the world from the time of T! There is still hope that we can stop the evil Paul and his plots to destroy us all! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:40:47 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hah! > You'll have to get through me (and a swarm of level-draining wights) to get > to the Marmelade Jar of The Ancients and the Ming Tea Cup, both of which are > resting securely in a safe location. Where the flying saucer of the planes, > the golden tea spoon of the Bodhisattvas and the vorpal butter knife (you'll > need that to cut through the sacred butter)are, I still haven't found out > An illusion here, a bit of cracked glass there, a totally erronious list as to requrements stratgically leaked to the opposition, whilst the true treasures have already been assembled. What matter the massive losses of inferior adventurers upon pointless quests if they provide the neccesary distraction? ;^) > Coffee drinkers of Mystara, unite to save the world from the time of T! > There is still hope that we can stop the evil Paul and his plots to destroy > us all! > There is no hope, for in the words of the great knight Coward, "EVERYTHING stops for T!" Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:32:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: The Stalker has left this plane... In-Reply-To: ; from alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:31:35PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:31:35PM +0100, The Stalker wrote: > > Mind you, once I get back, I'll be getting back to my old evil self - so no > jabs at Alphatia while I'm gone, okay! I'll be dealing with that in course! So anyway, I was walking along thinking of stuff about Alphatia IMC (it's kind of destroyed, but there are a lot of Alphatians left in the Known World). Actually one of my favourite NPC's at the moment is an Alphatian mage who left the Karameikan School of Magecraft to join with one of the PC's (Boldavian PC, she claimed to be Traladaran while around the narkier Alphatians). But I can see him singing the Alphatian national anthem, it's track 6 from The Little Mermaid soundtrack if any of you know it :) > Besides, you all seem busy enough with Stefan anyway ;) Hee hee :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:36:43 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments In-Reply-To: ; from valerya1@YAHOO.COM on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:11:56PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:11:56PM -0600, Jennifer Guerra wrote: > On 11/16/00 1:26 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > > > Me? Put things succinctly? 8-)~ > > Well, maybe not so succinctly, but you do have a way of making a point which > I envy. :-) It's the way some of James posts have footnotes, references to page numbers in Gazetteers and occasional mentions of 1984 and Babylon 5 that I like :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:55:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan In-Reply-To: ; from innr@DCS.ED.AC.UK on Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:43:39AM +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:43:39AM +0000, Iain Reid wrote: > > You folks are saying Stefan is evil because Not evil, just not a good ruler. However, and I think this point has been lost in this discussion, Stefan *is* a good dinner guest! On p97 of Gaz1 it states "Stefan frequently invited his Thyatian allies to his court where they supped wine and engaged in jovial conversation. All were impressed by the Duke's hospitality." Or from Wrath of the Immortals, p175 "Karameikos Sold Out - Description: Stefan takes a look at the current political situation and make a monumental decision. He throws a lavish dinner party for his court with the intent of making sure everyone present has a good time. Unfortunately the last stocks of Nouvelle Averoigne wine have been sold out - bought up by Thyatians in previous years. Stefan is in a precarious position, how can he convince his guests that has the wine...and is therefore a good host. What this means: This is a mortal event, indirectly affected by Valerias' influence on Thyatis. The Thyatians used for more wine than was traditional in their orgies and Thyatian Merchants turned to Karemeikos for supplies. What the PC's can do: To save the reputation of the Duke, the PC's can be hired to travel to Glantri and purchase more wine. Alternatively, some of Stefan's enemies could learn of the lack of wine and send the PC's to stop another party of adventurers who are helping the Duke save his honour." Dawn of the Emperors, Book 4, p5 "The trade of Machetos for Traladara was all the more difficult for the nobility in Thyatis. Although the war with Alphatia had drained their resources, they still had a desire to throw elaborate dinner parties...and still had a need of good guests. Without Stefan things were looking bleak." OK, I'll stop now :) > [d]: it makes him a more interesting character That much I do agree on! Although reading some of Jenn's stuff has lead me to look even more critically at Karameikos. There is much more adventure possibility there than I saw before, and I always liked Karameikos for it's 'powder keg' like nature anyway. Cool :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:43:15 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference between good > or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a result of your actions. To > illustrate, think about this question: Which boy is more "bad": a boy who > deliberately throws a dish on the floor to break it, or a boy who is helping > his parents wash the dishes and accidentally drops four dishes? > "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." > Also, I think there has been too much made of Karameikos' character flaw: that > he just doesn't believe some people are as evil as others say. That is an > interesting and reasonable character flaw. It's his cousin we're talking > about, here, afterall, and he hasn't seen any real evidence. It's likely he Hordes of people screaming at him that Ludwig is an evil bastard who rapes and murders isn't real enough? > BTW: Another point that has been kind of missed: The Grand Duchy of > Karameikos /was/ made a separate, sovereign nation as part of the original deal > with Thicol. > This didn't however prevent Stefan from pretending that Karameikos wasn't sovereign. And the two still did sign a treaty of mutual defense which Stefan subsequently ignored. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis >> But life does work like that at times. Its a common saying that the winner gets to write the history books. Doesn't mean the actual winner does the writing. Only that his bad qualities will be played down while his good qualities played up by contemporary writers. << My point is that such an activity doesn't make him "Good" though (I'd be interested to see these same people who are arguing that if Stefan "wins", gets his way, and gets to have his sycophants write up the history of his reign, that makes everything he did ok make the same argument for Zendrolion.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:50:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain Reid wrote: > > firstly, [a], he *is* that stupid. except it isn't stupidity. think > of it as cultural deficiency. he simply cannot grasp that his own > freind and cousin has a black as black heart. he might pass off actions > that Ludvig does as being due to a fit of anger or depression thinking > "after all, everyone gets upset sometimes". he might be worried that > his cousin isn't as good at ruling as he (or so he thinks, he is after > all convinced he was born to aid people by ruling). perhaps he > thinks the baron lacks the wisdom and foresight needed to handle > leadership. > whatever, the point is he makes up excuses for his cousin and then > *convinces himself* that they are true. its not really stupidity > just an unwillingness or inability to face up to the facts. > no brain damage, no evil agenda going on. > Okay. Then we come back to Jenn's "other alternative", that Stefan is a complete and utter moron who shouldn't be running a nation in the first place. > moving on to [b]. it may be true that he is destroying a culture > through the founding of Karameikos but this does not prohibit him > from being good. (there is no prime directive for good people :) > he honestly belives that the new culture he is founding has better > value and better moral standards and a higher quality of living etc.. > etc... and in this sense will benefit the people more than the old > ways. he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) > life not hurt them. this is not evil behavior. As I said in a previous message, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". After, all, one might as well argue that Hitler too had good intentions, he REALLY WANTED TO HELP Germans. > and finally [d] that an evil Stefan is more interesting than an evil > Ludvig and a Good Stefan put together. this may be the case, and > if DMs want to play it that way, go right ahead. just because > it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. :) > Personally, I like the idea of Stefan having "good intentions", but being convinced that he alone knows what "good" is, and anyone who doesn't see it his way is wrong. This doesn't make him good or evil per se, and it consistent with canont I believe. > basically a lot of the arguments for his evil behavior seem to be > "oh he is telling lies - monster!" or "oh he is hurting (in some way) > some people - villan!" not so. good characters can tell lies and > any people disadvantaged he belives is in the name of the common good, > that is to create a glorious nation where people can live in > happiness and prosperity etc... > > whether or not he is causing more harm than good is not the point > (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is > causing more good makes him good. > Oh, another, more recent example. Slobodan Milosevic believed that he was doing good by helping Serbs in Kosovo against Albanians who oppressed them (yes, that really was the case at one time but let's not go into details). I guess you think that Milosevic was good because of that, too. *cough* "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment >> But then when D&D alignments are concerned, I see any complex character as Neutral :) << Ok. Well, I've been largely arguing for most of this thread (check the archives if you're interested, I know you've missed most of this discussion) that Stefan is some variety of neutral. >> I think Stefan didn't agree with Thyatian culture or at least what it had become. He took what he thought was good about Thyatis to bring to Karameikos. << No citizenship. No Senate to "check" the absolutist power of the ruler. But he took with him many "ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them." In other words, Stefan's view of what was "good" about Thyatis was whatever worked best for him personally - regardless of its effects on having or not having a structure that benifited the Traladarans. >> And I think he was/is expecting the Traladarans to join him in the creation of the new nation. << Once he crushed those who didn't want to, and left others to the "untender" mercies of his less-well-considered apointments, showing them what would happen if they didn't toe the line. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:13:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> Though the freemen of Karameikos can be sentenced without trial by the Duke or the Duchess. << See, that's one of the things I was thinking of when I said Stefan didn't need slavery in Traladara because he considers everyone there his to do with what he likes. As for Azoun and Cormyr, which someone asked about, well if someone shows me that Azoun appointed many people, including his own relatives, who despoiled the people of Cormyr, stole their lands, and commited various other crimes, all under Azoun's grant of authority, with Azoun doing nothing about it, not steping in to correct his mistake or remove those apointments then yes, I wouldn't consider him a good ruler either. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:40:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have observed the ragin debate for some time without responding, mostly because I had nothing to add. However, I should point out some minor points: 1) This is supposedly a medievel-style kingdom where familial ties are paramount for royalty. The mere thought that a member of the royal family could be "evil" would be nearly impossible to believe, much less be discussed openly. Even today you see people sticking up for relatives and friends for all kinds of nefarious deeds. 2) If you go by Earth-style politics and history, people in a medievel setting would be much more trusting. Sophisticated deception and misdirection was extremely rare. 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. It is not much of a stretch to assume that Stefan would give his cousin every chance to explain any charges made against The Black Eagle. After all, unless the source of such charges is completely unimpeachable who would Stefan be more likely to believe? Stefan may even suspect, in his heart-of-hearts that the charges are true. So what? Family is family, and blood is thinker than water... 4) von Hendricks, at least in my campaign, does little directly. He mostly works through agents where the notion of plausible deniability is always within arms reach. After all, what evidence links The Black Eagle to whatever he is being charged with? Also, each time the charges fall flat it adds ammunition to the countercharge that von Hendriks is the victim of a, "...vast conspiracy..." I rest my case. Surely there will be those who see the truth. Even the Duke (as it is still 995 AC in campaign) has his doubts and suspicions; but what can he do? A Baron is not a lowly peasant, and any sign of weakness within the Thyatian nobility (or any firm proof of a link between dark deeds and the Duke's family) could mean a full-scale civil war (which has, in fact, happened in my game). The question for the Duke becomes this, "Does he tolerate a low level of activity resulting in dozens of deaths at a time while seeking political advantage and strength, or does he risk a rebellion that will result in thousands of deaths?" These are the extreme options, to be sure, but I do not think them unreasonable. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:20:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: hollow world 3rd ed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001121072907.007acea0@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > This list is also appropriate for that discussion. The Mystara > 3E group is working towards creating a single "standard" 3E version of > Mystara, and their decisions are informed by more issues than just > what will work in a single campaign. Absolutely. Sorry if my last post gave the impression that 3E stuff wasnt wanted here. I merely wanted to direct the origial poster to sources for more 3E stuff. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:22:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mystara=B4s?= Map Navigator In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Ricardo Matheus wrote: > Hello everybody > > I added a new map to the Mystara�s Map Navigator. It despicts northern > Ethengar and the Glantri/Wendar/Heldann border. > > Check it ou at: > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/7983/ Whoops! We can't find your page! I found the ULR-page, but the navigator itself was gone! :( H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:29:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Hrabovsky wrote: > > 1) This is supposedly a medievel-style kingdom where familial > ties are paramount for royalty. The mere thought that a > member of the royal family could be "evil" would be nearly > impossible to believe, much less be discussed openly. Even > today you see people sticking up for relatives and friends > for all kinds of nefarious deeds. They might have been nepotistic, but not foolish. Also, in the RW middle age family infighting was the standard behaviour. Even in semi-legendary stories, like Robin Hood, the evil (or, better, incompetent & traitor) relative is ousted, in the end. > 2) If you go by Earth-style politics and history, people in a > medievel setting would be much more trusting. Sophisticated > deception and misdirection was extremely rare. But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle Age oriented. > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. It is not much of > a stretch to assume that Stefan would give his cousin every > chance to explain any charges made against The Black Eagle. > After all, unless the source of such charges is completely > unimpeachable who would Stefan be more likely to believe? > Stefan may even suspect, in his heart-of-hearts that the charges > are true. So what? Family is family, and blood is thinker than > water... Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... BTW, the presence of the garrison in the Radlebb Tower seem to imply that someone is aware of the Baron's activities... the Division's name also doesn't seem to refer to the neighbouring Callarii.... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:56:48 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: The Damocles Civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually I'm thinking about using both theories. That the Pyrithians are descended from > Beagle crewmwmbers who escaped before the crash is just too good an opportunity to pass > up. > I don't think that I'll have them colonize Mystara however, because IMO it just raises > too many problems. > OTOH, if the Damocletians are descendents of the Beagle (and they are supposed to have > had a highly technological society), then perhaps this gives us an explination as to why > they would not send expiditions/colonization efforts to Mystara heads up... think about this... Damocles explodes creating the astroid belt, the Pyrithians are form the astroid belt..... What if the Pyrithians are the damocles civilization (decended from the Beagle), but just the ones that escape the destruction of their planet and colonize mystara? Thats why there is so few of them. They lose most of their technology after reaching mystara discovering it is useless by itself because of mystara's magical nature. Given the Pyrithians lack of magical ability they are unable to adapt it into Technomancy for Mystara. The answer to the original question would then be about 300 years ago. It is quite posible that the recent impact near glantri was a direct result of the explosion however. Maybe a fragment thrown into an eratic orbit and just been getting closer and closer over the last 300 years. Maybe theres more out there and the first one sets glantri watching the skies for them. It could make for some interesting adventure ideas without having to deal with a technological civilization. Stop this and that planet collieding, stop the astroid, and the "where'd the second moon come from" if the PC's go to investigate. Thoughts? Chris. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:21:54 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of > > > Traladara, if that was > > > a feasible solution. > > > -- > > Isn't that what he did? He sold it to stefan. > > No. That was the land, not the title. Grand duke sound's like a new title to me. The land and the right to conquer the land and the title were sold in one package to my understanding. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:05:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Iain Reid Subject: more stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Now, to those affected, it simply doesn't matter one way or another >whether Stefan lets this despoilation, rapine, and murder go on >because he has some concious plan for which despoilation, rapine, >and murder form a part (I.E. to destroy pre-existing Traladaran >institutions so that he can replace them with his "vision", for one >possible reason) OR whether he lets these things occur >and takes no action because he has some deep-seeted character >deficiency that makes him unable to percieve these things and take >a stand against them. > >In either case, the outcome is the same. And in either case, >Stefan is not a good King. >> the point is he makes up excuses for his cousin and then >>*convinces himself* that they are true. > >And that, my friend, is poor leadership at best. In the most generous >interpretation possible, it means that Stefan *might* be a decient sort of fellow, just not the kind of fellow one would want handling a great deal of responsibility (NOT a good King or good ruler). >And you yourself admit that Stefan has a deep seated and severe >character flaw that resulted in the suffering and death of >untold numbers of the people he was responsible for, over a period >of not less than thirty five years. Thisis proof positive that >Stefan is not a good ruler. We seem to be arguing about two different things here and are getting muddled. I don't think we should be talking about whether Stefan is fit to be a leader, whether he is an effective king (as you put it "a good king") or not. that does not determine his alignment. What does determine his alignement is his reasons for doing so. If he thinks that by fouding Karameikos he is doing it for the good of others, he is evil. If he is doing it simply for the sake of establishing order he is neutral. Only if he is specifically doing it to hurt people (the Traladians) is he evil. I don't see how anybody can say his intent is malicious he probably views the traladient culture as defeient in some ways, and the people perhaps needing 'educated'. He certainly isn't simply founding Karameikos to satisfy his desire to conquer and crush, let alone simply to hurt. >> he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) >>life not hurt them. > >Prove it. my proof is that his printed alignment is Lawful-Good :) i guess you would say that print is in err, citing you examples (handing out land to evil people, ignoring acts of wickedness etc...) as evidence of that but I don't see those example as evil unless it was done with evil intent which i don't belive they were. >> Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference >> between good or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a >> result of your actions. > >No. Intentions are only part of the matter. I disagree intirely here and this seem to be the root of the entire argument. I say that intent is 100% of wether you are good/evil. You folks seem to be saying "ok, his intent may have been good but he is hurting loads of people though both his actions and his inactions and thus must be evil or at best neutral". I say "no - if the intent was for Good, he is Good irrespective of t he outcome". Does anyone actualy think Stefan's intent is Evil i.e that he is setting out with the goal of hurting others? -Iain Reid P.S. one thing i wasn't aware of - you say he organised a counter-revolution plot. when was this, i must have missed it? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:00:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: New Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry. We made a mistake with the URL of our site. The right URL is: http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.html Thank you to Agatocles because he saw the mistake. Nadia and Renato ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:14:39 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [snip] The following starts as a reply to the statement that Stefan doesn't believe Ludwig is truly evil. Quoting Evil Genius : > Right there, that destroys any possibility that he could be considered a > good ruler. But you, like many of those arguing on Stefan's behalf, > create a somewhat distorted picture because you leave out a major aspect > here. Ludwig is *not* the sole example of bad behavior by persons Stefan > brought with him and empowered - he's just the worst of the lot. As the > Gaz (and K:KoA) says: > > "Many of the Thyatian settlers who poured into the country, swearing > loyalty to Duke Stefan and receiving land grants, were ruthless men who > literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them." I do remember reading this. I assign this action a "neutral" moral and ethical value to Stefan himself, because he was setting up a new system of government. The expectation was that any current settlers would start paying taxes to the new ruler in exchange for infrastructure and protection. What actually happened in some cases was that the new title-holder used the appointment to immediately take all of the locals' property. What irks me about this point is that they never say who these ruthless men actually were. Perhaps they later lost their appointments? Are Barons Kelvin and Threshold counted in this list of ruthless men? Then we can evaluate the results and (I would) say that the result turned out for the greater good. Without knowing this, it makes it hard for either side to use this point to decide whether Stefan is or was being a good or bad ruler. > Now, some of Stefan's apologists have claimed, without evidence, that > Stefan left Thyatis to get away from this sort of thing (and given this > as a reason why Stefan "couldn't" free his own slaves and bring them > with him, because he wanted to "cut his ties" to Bad Thyatis) - except > here we see that HE brings these bad things with him. . .and then is > indifferent to them, and the consiquences of his apointments (as one of > Stefan's *admirers* said, Stefan isn't concerned about the taking care > of the Traladarans, he's solely concerned with ruling them). I would like to separate myself from the so-called "Stefan apologists." I'm not saying that Stefan was heroic or brilliant or even pure as the driven snow. What I /am/ saying is that Duke Stefan was a "not-bad" ruler. By that I mean: not completely incompetent, nor evil. I still think he should be considered Lawful Neutral (with good tendencies). As I point out before, I think it's hard to say whether Stefan was indifferent to the consequences of his appointments, or whether he thought the appointments he made were good ones, or whether he did make changes early on to balance things when some people proved to be bad rulers, or what. Since the majority of the country is as well off or /better/ as a result of Stefan's actions (I point to Threshold and Kelvin, as examples of /better/), and I doubt that he is fully informed of the awful things going on in Black Eagle Barony, I think Stefan is a pretty good ruler who makes reasonable, human mistakes. BTW: I don't think it's stated anywhere in canon, but there are reasonable explanations for why Stefan didn't follow up on allegations against Ludwig. In the beginning he would be getting reports of unrest because of the new system of government, which would seem unfair even when it was implemented as expected. (What do you /mean/ I have to pay *you* taxes?! I don't pay taxes to nobody. I don't care if it would pay for a militia and a fort. I didn't ask for 'em! Etc., etc.) As time passed reports would dwindle. In the Black Baron's case, the reports would be fewer for much darker reasons, but there's no reason to expect that Stefan would attribute /different/ reasons for this change in reporting than from other districts (which end up being ruled well, and fairly). > Now, to those affected, it simply doesn't matter one way or another > whether Stefan lets this despoilation, rapine, and murder go on because > he has some concious plan for which despoilation, rapine, and murder > form a part Here you say he lets these serious crimes happen, but I say he didn't know about them, or that such crimes were punished when they were proven to have happened. > (I.E. to destroy pre-existing Traladaran institutions so > that he can replace them with his "vision", for one possible reason) OR > whether he lets these things occur and takes no action because he has > some deep-seeted character deficiency that makes him unable to percieve > these things and take a stand against them. You misrepresent his character flaw. He doesn't not see crimes when they are pointed out and proven to have happened. His flaw is that he doesn't suspect such crimes are happening. He requires incontrovertible proof that they are happening before punishing someone ... which he /never/ gets. His character flaw is that in the absence of such proof (even once) he won't expend serious efforts to try to dig up any. It's also worth noting that Olivia doesn't ever get such information, either, and she has a tidy little information gathering network. The fact is, very little information that would be damning ever leaves the Black Eagle Barony. > In either case, the outcome is the same. And in either case, Stefan is > not a good King. Well, that is not what I'm saying. He /might/ be a good ruler (King or Duke), but I'm not actually saying that. All I /am/ prepared to say is that he isn't /bad/. > >> he might pass off actions that Ludvig does as being due to a fit of > anger or depression thinking "after all, everyone gets upset sometimes". > << > > Yes, he might rationalize it "so? Everyone gets upset and murders a few > peasants sometimes. No big deal, they're only Traladarans." But I don't > see how that would make Stefan good. I don't think Stefan ever hears about such things in a way that can be attributed directly to Ludwig. It certainly doesn't seem that way from canon. [snip] > >> it may be true that he is destroying a culture > through the founding of Karameikos but this does not prohibit him > from being good. (there is no prime directive for good people :) > he honestly belives that the new culture he is founding has better > value and better moral standards and a higher quality of living etc..<< > > And that no one else's (including, especially, the targets of his > "vision") opinion matters, and that those who stand in the way are to be > crushed. This is not a "good" action. Hold on. I think he does care about his subjects' opinion, and about fairness, etc. He just happens to be creating a new culture, from the old (Traladaran) and the new (Thyatian). The point is made later (by Tim, I think) that the Traladaran church survives and thrives and their doctrine is still taught. And, the only thing he actually puts down is rebellion. People are not repressed by his rule. In fact, Freemen that find the wheels of justice grinding too slowly can jump the queue, by having an audience with the Duke (every Freeman's right) - he holds open court once a week. That's a better deal than Thyatis. > Note also that when "canon" describes Stefan's intentions (in the DM's > section) it DOES NOT SAY "Stefan wanted to rule a nation shaped by > justice and formed in the image of virtue" it says "Stefan wanted to > rule a nation shaped by his own hands and formed in his own image" - > Stefan's project was a narcissistic one, I disagree that Stefan's project was narcissistic, exactly. I would call it ambitious. I think he wanted to make a good, well-run, modern country out of a frontier. That's a challenge he didn't have with Machetos. The absence of an explicit statement /exactly in that place/ that he wanted his rule to be just, does not preclude it. In fact, I think his policy of open court rather indicates he did want justice and virtue to be always available to his subjects. > not one guided by standards of > virtue and concern for the welfare of others. Stefan's concern was for > his welfare (alone), and his desires, his wishes, his wants. LE people > are certainly like that, as are Chaotic Neutral ones. I disagree that Stefan's concern was for his welfare alone. That is a statement without support. Or, at least, that can be contradicted with canon. Open court is just one example. > >> he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) > life not hurt them. << > > Prove it. See above. I regret that I don't have my gaming materials with me now to find more examples. > His actions belie such an assertion. He wants to HELP his followers to > the lands of others (he doesn't step in to stop despoilations, because > it doesn't benifit him one way or the other). Wrong. He doesn't because he doesn't know about them. > By the way, a lot of evil, despotic things have been done in the name of > "forcing people to be better" - forcing one's "vision" on others against > their will is not an act of goodness. It is an act of totalitarian > despotism, responsible for millions of deaths. True. But that's not the case. In fact, the Grand Duchy of Karameikos is the amalgamation of cultures, not one single Big Brother is watching or Nazi-esque society. I'm really, really tired of that allegation. > >> just because it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. << > > And canon is what I have indicated. True, but you have added personal interpretations that differ from others who also use canon. Perhaps we can't all cite chapter and verse because we don't always have our gaming materials at hand, but the examples I give above are from canon. -Auldskald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:48:56 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Behavior: what "alignment"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>If the SE and HK are labeled Chaotic by their foes, then Stefan is labeled Lawful by his supporters, despite his actions. After the exchange with Thincol, BTW, Stefan was not free of obligations with him (there was an alliance, as per the Gaz), therefore his actions in the WotI aren't Lawful at all. Simply put, the OD&D alignments only state whether someone is friend or foe, from the PCs supposed poit of view.<< Have to dissagree, breaking one alliance does not change someone from being lawful to chaotic. It's a concistancy in behaviour which is the thing. Gennerally stefan is lawful, although some argue otherwise, even given a lawful listing in canon. non-canon stuff often says otherwise because people think they can make it more interesting. It might be, but it must be accepted as non-canon. Stefan can be chaotic-evil, if you declare it non-canon. It doesn't change anything but the reasons the details and the future. Canon still say's lawful and can be played as lawful. I'm inclined now toward lawful neutral for arguements sake. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:37:33 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > > > Also, he would have sold off the title of Duke of > > > > Traladara, if that was > > > > a feasible solution. > > > > -- > > > Isn't that what he did? He sold it to stefan. > > > > No. That was the land, not the title. > > Grand duke sound's like a new title to me. The land and the right to conquer > the land and the title were sold in one package to my understanding. I mean that selling Traladara is different from selling the title of Duke of Traladara, which would have been the "usual" Thyatian deal. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:41:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference > between good or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a result > of your actions. << > > No. Intentions are only part of the matter. Well, I think here we have a fundamental disagreement, then. Good and evil are, in my book, strictly intentional. That something bad happens has no moral value, per se. If a brick falls on your head, that's bad, but not evil or good. If someone deliberately dropped a brick on your head from some height, that's evil. If someone prevented a wheelbarrow of bricks from being dropped on your head, but one slipped out anyway and hit you on the head, that would be good intentions and a still unfortunate situation. If someone knocks a brick off a building ledge without knowing it, and it hits your head, that person's action is neither evil nor good. I hope that clears up that point. > >> To illustrate, think about this question: Which boy is more "bad": a > boy who deliberately throws a dish on the floor to break it, or a boy > who is helping his parents wash the dishes and accidentally drops four > dishes? << > > To the persons who die as a result of Stefan's feckless apointments and > refusal to correct his errors, the result is the same. I think it remains unproven that Stefan knew how bad things were. I think if Stefan knew innocent people were being killed by Ludwig's rule, he would have corrected his error. /Naturally/, assuming otherwise would make his intention evil. I think that is what you are doing and I disagree with it. > Now, what do we think of someone who commits a grave error (say, > accidentally killing someone - that's closer to what we're talking about > here than "broken dishes"), but refuses to aknowlege that anything he > did resulted in that death, refuses to rectify the problem, and indeed > alows it to continue resulting in more deaths? This is not the case, however. Your whole argument here assumes he knows what the problem is. He can't fix what he doesn't know about. First, I doubt Stefan knows of several of these deaths, but let's assume he hears of something like that from the Black Eagle Barony. When there is an investigation it turns up that someone other than the Baron is at fault. The miscreant is punished, or discovered to have fled, or whatever, case closed. It was never something attributable to Ludwig, neither in the sense of personal fault nor bad rule. You need a pretty good reason to remove a Baron, and Stefan never gets such a reason. [snip] > > >> Canon gives the results of his actions (or inaction) without > ascribing intent to them. It's expected that you interpolate his intent > with his alignment: Lawful Neutral. << > > You're wrong about at least one thing in the above. Two, really. I'm > going to let you find out what. Look, I don't mind being corrected, but if you haven't noticed I don't have loads of time to be looking these things up, and I don't happen to have my references with me right now, so goading can't make me (though I would like to). Why don't you just say what it is I have wrong? Either I have his alignment wrong, or you're saying intent is ascribed to some actions. Or both. Please say. I presume I have his alignment wrong, and I'll guess that it's Neutral in Gaz 1. Is that what you're looking for? > But I'm going to make a point about it, obliquely: TSR has not been very > good at applying their own alignments. I'll go along with that statement. [snip] > >> It's his cousin we're talking about, here, afterall, and he hasn't > seen any real evidence. << > > Again with the attempt to claim that "its only Ludwig, his cousin" - > again, wrong: Ludwig wasn't the only such person, as the Gaz says "WORST > among them was Duke Stefan's own cousin, Baron Ludwig 'Black Eagle' von > Hendricks." > > Now, those of you who want to see Stefan as the font of goodness can, in > YOUR campaigns, pretend that Ludwig was the sole blemish on an otherwise > unvarnished record of goodness and good apointments, but you're (not me) > the ones who are distorting the "canon" when you do so, all the while > claiming that I am. Actually, I think there is a lack of sufficient detail on this point. Apparently he made some bad appointments, but which bad appointments survive until 1000 A.C. - other than Von Hendricks? > >> It's likely he sent investigators and inquired after his cousin from > time-to-time about rare allegations << > > Give an example of such an instance when Stefan sent out investigators. > Sure, people like Sasha of Luln tried to tell Stefan what was going on > in Halag, but he refused to listen to her warnings or investigate them. My take is that there is never enough evidence to convict, everything that Stefan ever hears is plausibly deniable by the Black Baron through scapegoats or otherwise. However, I also think there is likely a "crying wolf" aspect to this. If Stefan hears one thing but is then shown another, repeatedly, Stefan could reasonably believe that the people on that border are just more liable to dislike Thyatians and distort events for their own political purposes. After time, reports become fewer as people become despondent and stop trying. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:56:05 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/22/00 09:47 AM, you wrote: >My point is that such an activity doesn't make him "Good" though (I'd be >interested to see these same people who are arguing that if Stefan "wins", >gets his way, and gets to have his sycophants write up the history of his >reign, that makes everything he did ok make the same argument for Zendrolion.) You're right. However, if Stefan's legacy is a strong, powerful nation he will be perceived as a good man even though that legacy really has no effect on his alignment. He could be an absolute tyrant but if Karameikos achieves greatness, no one will care. I think that's what Chris (it was Chris, wasn't it?) was saying. Not that Stefan's actual alignment is changed by history but that history will remember him as good because he benefits those reading that history later. Maybe a tell-all book comes out pointing out his crimes but folks will find a way to rationalize that away because people think the things that are beneficial to them must be good. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:03:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/22/00 09:52 AM, you wrote: >Ok. Well, I've been largely arguing for most of this thread (check the >archives if you're interested, I know you've missed most of this >discussion) that Stefan is some variety of neutral. I did miss some of it but came on around the time Stefan became evil :) >No citizenship. No Senate to "check" the absolutist power of the ruler. >But he took with him many "ruthless men who literally stole lands from the >Traladarans living upon them." In other words, Stefan's view of what was >"good" about Thyatis was whatever worked best for him personally - >regardless of its effects on having or not having a structure that >benifited the Traladarans. This is what I was saying before. Stefan is blank enough to be exactly whatever you want him to be. I could say he was setting up a feudal system of government so citizenship isn't useful (as a social status). No Senate because the Senate is prone to corruption. The ruthless Thyatians took power from Traladaran nobles so stealing the land Traladarans were living on really doesn't affect anyone except those nobles whose land was lost. So, those aren't necessarily brought with Stefan just because they benefit him. It could be they really do benefit all. Is there any evidence that Traladarans aren't receiving the benefits of the nation gaining an increase in status among the Known World? Is there anything to suggest they as a whole are oppressed and worse off than before? I don't think there is because 1) Traladaran's aren't in continual revolt and 2) what little reactions from Traladarans we've seen have been on the positive side (granted there was a revolt at one time). Of course, this is just because I want Stefan to be a good king but its all in perceptions. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:03:21 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A1BE993.56C99E1@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Now, we /should/ be able to agree that /intent/ is the difference > > between good or evil, not simply how badly events come out as a result > > of your actions. To illustrate, think about this question: Which boy is > > more "bad": a boy who deliberately throws a dish on the floor to break it, > > or a boy who is helping his parents wash the dishes and accidentally drops > > four dishes? > > > "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." A popular saying, but you miss the point of it. The idea behind it is that intentions alone are not enough, there must be good works as well. There's also a saying (paraphrasing), "All that evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing." That happens to be the case, but the good man in this case is Stefan, and the reason he is not acting against this evil is a lack of information/evidence, not a lack of will. Also, don't misconstrue a lack of suspicion or paranoia with a lack of will. Stefan is /trusting/, and that's a common "flaw" of good people. [snip] > > It's his cousin we're talking about, here, afterall, and he hasn't > > seen any real evidence. It's likely he > > Hordes of people screaming at him that Ludwig is an evil bastard who > rapes and murders isn't real enough? What hordes? I would consider /hordes/ of people to be serious proof. Such a thing never appears. Prove me wrong, and I might change my position. > > BTW: Another point that has been kind of missed: The Grand Duchy of > > Karameikos /was/ made a separate, sovereign nation as part of the > original deal > > with Thicol. > > > This didn't however prevent Stefan from pretending that Karameikos > wasn't sovereign. And the two still did sign a treaty of mutual defense > which Stefan subsequently ignored. Interesting point. However, was that action good or evil? It's hard to say. Was he preserving his people by doing so? Did he think it was a lost cause, and that his Duchy was going to be a sacrificial lamb in the war for Thyatis? I admittedly don't know much about this part of canon. (I've deliberately stayed away from WotI as a DM in the hopes that I may someday be able to play in it as character and not have the /whole/ plot ruined.) But, I think some people are just a little too ready to assign evil intent. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:08:33 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments In-Reply-To: <20001122113643.F8236@esatclear.ie> On 22 Nov 2000, at 11:36, Gordon McCormick wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:11:56PM -0600, Jennifer Guerra wrote: > > On 11/16/00 1:26 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > > > > > Me? Put things succinctly? 8-)~ > > > > Well, maybe not so succinctly, but you do have a way of making a > > point which I envy. :-) > > It's the way some of James posts have footnotes, references to page > numbers in Gazetteers and occasional mentions of 1984 and Babylon 5 > that I like :) Hear, hear. That's definitely the main thing that makes James' "Ranting Screeds" [to resurrect an old term I haven't heard in a while ;-)] so enjoyable to read and endearing to my heart -- even when they're on a topic I would otherwise care little about. My personal interests lie in Darokin and the environs inside (Alfheim) and to its South-West (Shires, Atruaghin, Sind), The island chains (Minrothad, Irendi), the Sea of Dread (on and under), and the regions of the "Far West" (Yav, Sind Desert, Savage Coast) all in the 1000AC era. I could care less about Alphatia vs. Thyatis, Traladarans vs. Stephen Karameikos, or anything in the WotI or Post- WotI time period. Still, I read these threads and almost always enjoy (and frequently even agree with) James' comments. It's hard to argue with good solid, academic references ;-) Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <--------------------------------------------------------> God said: "Let their be Light." Then he created Earth, vegtables, animals, man and woman. Then God thought: "You know, I should create things I *like*!" So God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:30:28 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Remember sind's population is dirt poor. > > > And that didn't change after the Master took control. Whereas > Traladarans had their property stolen from them by Stefan and his > cronies. So relatively speaking, the people of Sind came out better off > than the people of Traladara. Well I'm not sure what happened to those people so I couldn't tell you. I mean did they just become peasants, or did they go somewhere else? I doubt they became dirt poor. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:28:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1BEB38.85EAE348@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Iain Reid wrote: [snip] > Okay. Then we come back to Jenn's "other alternative", that Stefan is a > complete and utter moron who shouldn't be running a nation in the first > place. I don't think he's stupid, merely uninformed and trusting. > > moving on to [b]. it may be true that he is destroying a culture > > through the founding of Karameikos but this does not prohibit him > > from being good. (there is no prime directive for good people :) > > he honestly belives that the new culture he is founding has better > > value and better moral standards and a higher quality of living etc.. > > etc... and in this sense will benefit the people more than the old > > ways. he wants to HELP the people to live a better (in his eyes) > > life not hurt them. this is not evil behavior. > > As I said in a previous message, "the road to Hell is paved with good > intentions". I answered this statement in my last post. BTW: I think he has brought good things to the people he rules, and not by accident. > After, all, one might as well argue that Hitler too had good intentions, > he REALLY WANTED TO HELP Germans. Enough with the attempt to make Stefan a Nazi. I would /not/ argue that Hitler had good intentions, and I would not want to associate with anyone who would. Hitler attacked neighbours he was at peace with and slaughtered millions of innocents. There is no parallel to Stefan there. Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. This did not happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, and indeed they get things they wanted out of the new way things are run, as well. > > and finally [d] that an evil Stefan is more interesting than an evil > > Ludvig and a Good Stefan put together. this may be the case, and > > if DMs want to play it that way, go right ahead. just because > > it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. :) > > > Personally, I like the idea of Stefan having "good intentions", but > being convinced that he alone knows what "good" is, and anyone who > doesn't see it his way is wrong. This doesn't make him good or evil per > se, and it consistent with canont I believe. This is a reasonable stance to take, though I don't personally think he believes he's the only one who knows what "good" is. I think he would agree with the patriarchs of Traladaran and Karameikan Churches about what good is. It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major (and good!) religions in the region support his rule. > > basically a lot of the arguments for his evil behavior seem to be > > "oh he is telling lies - monster!" or "oh he is hurting (in some way) > > some people - villan!" not so. good characters can tell lies and > > any people disadvantaged he belives is in the name of the common good, > > that is to create a glorious nation where people can live in > > happiness and prosperity etc... > > > > whether or not he is causing more harm than good is not the point > > (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is > > causing more good makes him good. > > > Oh, another, more recent example. Slobodan Milosevic believed that he > was doing good by helping Serbs in Kosovo against Albanians who > oppressed them (yes, that really was the case at one time but let's not > go into details). I guess you think that Milosevic was good because of > that, too. Again, you use the example of someone who used hate as a force to maintain power. This is a pathetic attempt to draw parallels where there are none. Karameikos is a pluralistic society that works toward the betterment of the whole, and certainly not at the intentional expense of an ethnic group, for any reason. There /is/ grass-roots "Traladaran" buy-in on his government. > *cough* "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Please see what I had to say about this in a previous post. The point is, Stefan /does/ do good works and does /not/ have evil intentions, or at least, it is never demonstrated that he intends evil when he acts. Milosovec, on the other hand, was clearly evil when he attempted to commit genocide, and there's just no way to assign a good intent to that. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:43:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> But then when D&D alignments are concerned, I see any complex > character as Neutral :) << > > Ok. Well, I've been largely arguing for most of this thread (check the > archives if you're interested, I know you've missed most of this > discussion) that Stefan is some variety of neutral. I might be able to along with that. I proposed Lawful Neutral with good tendencies. > >> I think Stefan didn't agree with Thyatian culture or at least what it > had become. He took what he thought was good about Thyatis to bring to > Karameikos. << > > No citizenship. No Senate to "check" the absolutist power of the ruler. > But he took with him many "ruthless men who literally stole lands from > the Traladarans living upon them." In other words, Stefan's view of what > was "good" about Thyatis was whatever worked best for him personally - > regardless of its effects on having or not having a structure that > benifited the Traladarans. Well, that's /one/ interpretation. =;) On the other hand, the Thyatian Senate is a corrupt institution generally given to treachery, patronage, waste, and self-serving decadence. I can understand not wanting that. The ideals of a senate are pretty, but his experience of the reality probably was pretty dissuading. In its place, he gave his subjects the means to seek justice by skipping the bureaucracy and talking directly to the Duke. Not a bad deal, really. > >> And I think he was/is expecting the Traladarans to join him in the > creation of the new nation. << > > Once he crushed those who didn't want to, and left others to the > "untender" mercies of his less-well-considered apointments, showing them > what would happen if they didn't toe the line. I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he was making sweeping changes and people are naturally resistent to change. Once things were shown to be as good or better, the complaining stopped. As to his appointments, I think they were well-considered under the circumstances, and that only one bad example survives to 1000 A.C. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:51:35 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> Though the freemen of Karameikos can be sentenced without trial by > the Duke or the Duchess. << > > See, that's one of the things I was thinking of when I said Stefan > didn't need slavery in Traladara because he considers everyone there his > to do with what he likes. Oh, please. You imply that he thinks people are playthings. *buzz* That's von Hendrick's attitude, not his. Summary judgement by the monarch could be abused, to be sure, but you cannot show me that he /has/ abused it. It is doubtless reserved by him to ensure that justice can always be carried out expediently. Also, the situation is not that much different from Thyatis in point of fact, although it might be in apparent process. If the Emperor decided he wanted a man dead, he has only to get his personal guard to plant some evidence, then appoint a magistrate to try him and then sentence him however the Emperor likes. > As for Azoun and Cormyr, which someone asked about, well if someone > shows me that Azoun appointed many people, including his own relatives, > who despoiled the people of Cormyr, stole their lands, and commited > various other crimes, all under Azoun's grant of authority, with Azoun > doing nothing about it, not steping in to correct his mistake or remove > those apointments then yes, I wouldn't consider him a good ruler either. Don't know nuthin' about this and I'm staying out of it. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C1EA2.EE9D29E1@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > 1) This is supposedly a medievel-style kingdom where familial > > ties are paramount for royalty. The mere thought that a > > member of the royal family could be "evil" would be nearly > > impossible to believe, much less be discussed openly. Even > > today you see people sticking up for relatives and friends > > for all kinds of nefarious deeds. > > They might have been nepotistic, but not foolish. Also, in the RW middle > age family infighting was the standard behaviour. Even in semi-legendary > stories, like Robin Hood, the evil (or, better, incompetent & traitor) > relative is ousted, in the end. I would say family in-fighting usually happened in established families to gain advantage over equals. That's not the case. Stefan did a tremendous favour to his non-inheriting cousin Ludwig, and expected loyalty in return. Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that ever comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a Robin Hood if Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. > > 2) If you go by Earth-style politics and history, people in a > > medievel setting would be much more trusting. Sophisticated > > deception and misdirection was extremely rare. > > But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of > deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle Age > oriented. Well, most of the deception and skullduggery in Thyatis seems to revolve around the Senate, and not the nobility. Perhaps Stefan believed he had left such things behind by not creating a Senate. > > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. It is not much of > > a stretch to assume that Stefan would give his cousin every > > chance to explain any charges made against The Black Eagle. > > After all, unless the source of such charges is completely > > unimpeachable who would Stefan be more likely to believe? > > Stefan may even suspect, in his heart-of-hearts that the charges > > are true. So what? Family is family, and blood is thinker than > > water... > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... Good point. How smart is Bargle, though? Anyway, I don't agree with the sentiment that Stefan even suspects there are charges like that which could be true. > BTW, the presence of the garrison in the Radlebb Tower seem to imply > that someone is aware of the Baron's activities... the Division's name > also doesn't seem to refer to the neighbouring Callarii.... Perhaps past events (painted with a different coloured brush by Ludwig) made the area seem more likely to have a native uprising. Once the fort was built, it would be silly to abandon it. Also, the Fort may have multiple purposes, like being a more woodsy outpost and thus a more congenial venue to meet and discuss matters with the Callarii. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:12:21 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <974927144.3a1c35285b75a@members.uniserve.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:05 11/22/2000 -0800, Wizards Shopper wrote: >Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that ever >comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a Robin Hood if >Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. Yolanda of Luln. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:10:11 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C1EA2.EE9D29E1@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/22/00 12:29 PM, you wrote: >But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of >deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle Age >oriented. Darokin is the only nation in a Renaissance period, I think. Karameikos seems modeled after a High Middle Age kingdom. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:45:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122131221.007f7ec0@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Beau : > At 13:05 11/22/2000 -0800, Wizards Shopper wrote: > > >Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that > ever > >comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a Robin > Hood if > >Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. > > Yolanda of Luln. Oops. Good point. Still, she never gets the necessary evidence, does she? Bargle must be a big help to keeping things quiet. Robin only had to deal with mundaners. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:51:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Organization: scarole@tin.it Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan [tongue-in-cheek] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, and I think this point has been lost in this discussion, > Stefan *is* a good dinner guest! On p97 of Gaz1 it states > Oh, I noticed it too... > > "Stefan frequently invited his Thyatian allies to his court > where they supped wine and engaged in jovial conversation. > All were impressed by the Duke's hospitality." > > Or from Wrath of the Immortals, p175 > > "Karameikos Sold Out - > > Description: > Stefan takes a look at the current political situation and > make a monumental decision. He throws a lavish dinner party See? "a lavish dinner party". He must surely be evil. > > What this means: > This is a mortal event, indirectly affected by Valerias' influence > on Thyatis. The Thyatians used for more wine than was traditional > in their orgies and Thyatian Merchants turned to Karemeikos for > supplies. Well, once again it seems that Allston enjoys putting Thyatis in a bad light. He didn't mention enough names of Alphatian wizards who consumed zzonga. > What the PC's can do: > To save the reputation of the Duke, the PC's can be hired to > travel to Glantri and purchase more wine. A dull solution. Wouldn't it had been better if they robbed Glantri of the wine? Oh, sorry, I forgot we're talking about Stefan > Dawn of the Emperors, Book 4, p5 > > "The trade of Machetos for Traladara was all the more difficult > for the nobility in Thyatis. Although the war with Alphatia had > drained their resources, they still had a desire to throw elaborate > dinner parties...and still had a need of good guests. Without Stefan > things were looking bleak." > Iulius Sergius Scaevola TOWDGTWTMSMTTLATROBHBTAM * * The One Who Dares Gordon To Write the Most Stupid Message To The List At The Risk Of Being Hit By The Administrator's Mace ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:54:20 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > What irks me about this point is that they never say who these ruthless men > actually were. Perhaps they later lost their appointments? Are Barons Kelvin They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. > Since the majority of the country is as well off or /better/ as a result of > Stefan's actions (I point to Threshold and Kelvin, as examples of /better/), Are Traladarans better off? How? And they are the majority of the country. > It's also worth noting that Olivia doesn't ever get such information, either, > and she has a tidy little information gathering network. The fact is, very > little information that would be damning ever leaves the Black Eagle Barony. > Then why does everyone else in Karameikos know that Ludwig is nasty? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:14:13 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > The absence of an explicit statement /exactly in that place/ that he wanted his > rule to be just, does not preclude it. In fact, I think his policy of open > court rather indicates he did want justice and virtue to be always available to > his subjects. Actually, this "just" judgement normally ends in a week or two of jail for the petitioner (without trial, of course). Hardly a paragon of justice and virtue available to all, unless "justice and virtue" is equals to "his own whims". The "open court" only replaces Justice with a form of arbitrary judgement (which would be fit for a chaotic ruler). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:12:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > After, all, one might as well argue that Hitler too had good intentions, > > he REALLY WANTED TO HELP Germans. > > Enough with the attempt to make Stefan a Nazi. I would /not/ argue that Hitler > had good intentions, and I would not want to associate with anyone who would. > Hitler attacked neighbours he was at peace with and slaughtered millions of > innocents. There is no parallel to Stefan there. > I am not comparing or even mentioning those things. You brought them up. > Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against humanoid > incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. This did not Hitler did all that too. > happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, and > indeed they get things they wanted out of the new way things are run, as well. > No, it happened at the expense of Traladarans. > This is a reasonable stance to take, though I don't personally think he > believes he's the only one who knows what "good" is. I think he would agree > with the patriarchs of Traladaran and Karameikan Churches about what good is. > It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major (and > good!) religions in the region support his rule. > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". He wishes to see the return of Traladara's Golden Age, but no mention is made of Stefan. Indeed, he considers members of the Cult of Halav (who preach that Stefan will bring about the Golden Age) quite mad. Plus, his parents were killed in the Marilenev rebellion. All this seems to indicate that the Patriarch is resigned to having Stefan in charge, having no other choice. > Again, you use the example of someone who used hate as a force to maintain > power. > Eventually, yes. Initially though Milosevic's intentions were to help the Serb minority in Kosovo. > Please see what I had to say about this in a previous post. The point is, > Stefan /does/ do good works and does /not/ have evil intentions, or at least, > it is never demonstrated that he intends evil when he acts. > Good works at what expense? I would also compare Stefan to the Kingpriest of Istar. Good intentions, but poor execution which ultimately leads to downfall. > Milosovec, on the other hand, was clearly evil when he attempted to commit > genocide, and there's just no way to assign a good intent to that. > People *can* do some horrible things while having good intentions. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:14:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > In its place, he gave his subjects the means to seek justice by skipping the > bureaucracy and talking directly to the Duke. Not a bad deal, really. > We've seen how much that helps (see "Davinos' Complaint" in Gaz1). > I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he was making sweeping changes > and people are naturally resistent to change. Once things were shown to be as > good or better, the complaining stopped. > How were things shown to be better? When did the complaining stop? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:23:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Karameikos v. Traladara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think it's worth noting that some people -- sometimes including myself -- are inclined to give Stefan a break as the Traladaran partisans aren't particularly attractive human beings. (Of course, Desmond Kelvin's no saint, either.) IMC, I've got a group of all Traladarans, and the ethnic conflict will be a background (but repeat) element, but one of the things I'm going to make clear is that no side is particularly attractive or nice. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:56:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C408C.4B814A7F@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > What irks me about this point is that they never say who these > > ruthless men actually were. Perhaps they later lost their appointments? > > Are Barons Kelvin > > They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could they steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without the force of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their property back. Perhaps that is what you are suggesting happened? Since there are no examples other than Ludwig of such ruthless nobles, they must have eliminated themselves by coming under the scrutiny of Stefan, or reforming, or being driven off by the populace. Anyway, I argue that it's vague who these people were, and there is only the one remaining example as of A.C. 1000, of which Stefan is unaware. > > Since the majority of the country is as well off or /better/ as a > > result of Stefan's actions (I point to Threshold and Kelvin, as examples of > > /better/), > > Are Traladarans better off? How? And they are the majority of the > country. The organised military presence in the interior that protects the settlements and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. Roads are better. Trade has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a result of the preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where it was not previously. There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was established where there was none. Etc., etc. The country /is/ better off. > > It's also worth noting that Olivia doesn't ever get such information, > > either, and she has a tidy little information gathering network. The fact > > is, very little information that would be damning ever leaves the Black > > Eagle Barony. > > > Then why does everyone else in Karameikos know that Ludwig is nasty? They don't. Players and DMs know, but the fantasy population of Karameikos at large does not know. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:00:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C5345.DE3F6E9B@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > The absence of an explicit statement /exactly in that place/ that he > > wanted his rule to be just, does not preclude it. In fact, I think his > > policy of open court rather indicates he did want justice and virtue to be > > always available to his subjects. > > Actually, this "just" judgement normally ends in a week or two of jail > for the petitioner (without trial, of course). No it doesn't! That happens to be the punishment for deliberately wasting the court's time, but that is not what "normally" happens. It is a deterrant against bogging down what is supposed to be the ultimate Ombudsman. > Hardly a paragon of > justice and virtue available to all, unless "justice and virtue" is > equals to "his own whims". The "open court" only replaces Justice with a > form of arbitrary judgement (which would be fit for a chaotic ruler). Perhaps that's the way you play it, but that's not how I see it. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:49:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against humanoid > incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. IYO, you should add. I don't think anyone asked Stefan to set up a stable government, a military, etc. The Traladarans had fared well for centuries without him, and would have continued that way for many other, if it was their choice. > This did not > happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, and Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the Hin too. > indeed they get things they wanted out of the new way things are run, as well. The fact that Traladara's neighbours (but only *some* of them) got an advantage from Stefan's actions does not justifies them. I mean, if someone steals some money from your neighbour, the fact that he's willing to share the loot with you does not make him less of a thief (at most, it may show that you aren't a good neighbour, in the end). > It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major (and > good!) religions in the region support his rule. Actually, the Patriarch of the Traladaran Church is hostile to Stefan. The Gaz says that it is because he is friend with Jowett that he has decided to try assimilating the Thyatians instead of trying to chase them (and, I may add, because the revolts have already failed). As to the religions being good, I must say that only the Church of Traladara is basically good. The Church of Karameikos is Lawful (Neutral, with individuals free to range from Evil to Good), and the Cult of Halav is definitely Chaotic Neutral. > > > (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is > > > causing more good makes him good. I don't follow you, really... you are arguing that a madman who believes that helps them *is* good, just because he believes it? I think Solmyr's reasoning applies perfectly here: you are willing to justify anyone on the basis of his own belief (which is wrong, IMO), but then you are (correctly, IMNSHO) refusing to apply this definition to Solmyr's examples, just because they are more extreme than Stefan. This brings to contradiction, which, if you like, proves that your statemant above here doesn't stand. > Karameikos is a pluralistic society that works toward the betterment of the > whole, and certainly not at the intentional expense of an ethnic group, for any > reason. There /is/ grass-roots "Traladaran" buy-in on his government. Actually, Karameikos is *based* on ethnic oppositions: Stefan plays one group against the other (he uses the Traladarans to guard the Thyatian border, and the worst Thyatian to guard the Hin border). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:51:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he was making sweeping changes > and people are naturally resistent to change. Once things were shown to be as > good or better, the complaining stopped. Since they're still complaining after 30 years, I would guess they weren't that good. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:55:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Also, the situation is not that much different from Thyatis in point of fact, > although it might be in apparent process. If the Emperor decided he wanted a > man dead, he has only to get his personal guard to plant some evidence, then > appoint a magistrate to try him and then sentence him however the Emperor likes. The difference is that while any political/juridical system is easily disrupted by the presence of unjust individuals, Stefan's (as well as any autocratic) system is flawed in its own concept (That is, the Duke needs not abuse/bend the law to sentence someone). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:13:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I would say family in-fighting usually happened in established families to gain > advantage over equals. That's not the case. Stefan did a tremendous favour to > his non-inheriting cousin Ludwig, and expected loyalty in return. Stefan's family was established. He had no heir, or only infant heirs, for quite a long time. And Ludwig was behaving in a theatrical way, at least for a time (his "conquest" of Halag, for example). > Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that ever > comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a Robin Hood if > Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. Even in the Robin Hood story, John if defeated only when (and as soon as!) the Lionheart comes back, IIRC. The difference I see is that the Lionheart strongly acts to preserve his power, and coincidentially to help the people, while Stefan's inaction strenghtens the Black Eagle and cause the people to be oppressed. > Well, most of the deception and skullduggery in Thyatis seems to revolve around > the Senate, and not the nobility. Proof of this statement? AFAIK, DotE says all Thyatians have a fair chance to act that way. > > > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. > > > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... > > Good point. How smart is Bargle, though? High intelligence but low wisdom, which means great planning, but with the stereotypical archvillain's flaws: underestimating. Notice that, while Stefan isn't at genious level, he is (should be) far more wise than Bargle or Ludwig. Also, Bargle as not always been Ludwig's court wizard. Stefan had quite a long time to realize that Ludwig was not only evil, but also a danger to his own power! > Perhaps past events (painted with a different coloured brush by Ludwig) made > the area seem more likely to have a native uprising. Once the fort was built, > it would be silly to abandon it. Also, the Fort may have multiple purposes, > like being a more woodsy outpost and thus a more congenial venue to meet and > discuss matters with the Callarii. Well, it's more his original use that puzzles me: I mean, there was little population in the area (Luln was formed by Black Eagle Barony refugees later), there was little hope to colonize the Callarii lands, and there was the Riverfork garrison (and good cousin Ludwig!) so near. Also, Kelvin was already being built near the Callarii lands, and was surely more apt to host friendly meetings. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:16:02 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > At 11/22/00 12:29 PM, you wrote: > >But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of > >deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle Age > >oriented. > > Darokin is the only nation in a Renaissance period, I think. Karameikos > seems modeled after a High Middle Age kingdom. Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is definitely not Middle Age (at least not in the Western European way). Also, beyond Darokin and Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:18:17 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Quoting Beau : > > > At 13:05 11/22/2000 -0800, Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > >Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that > > ever > > >comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a Robin > > Hood if > > >Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. > > > > Yolanda of Luln. > > Oops. Good point. Still, she never gets the necessary evidence, does she? Or Stefan ignores it. > Bargle must be a big help to keeping things quiet. Robin only had to deal with > mundaners. And the mayor of Luln. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:20:40 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122142304.007d9bc0@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/22/00 04:23 PM, you wrote: > IMC, I've got a group of all Traladarans, and the ethnic conflict > will be >a background (but repeat) element, but one of the things I'm going to make >clear is that no side is particularly attractive or nice. One of the reasons I'm so attractive to Karameikos is that neither the Thyatians nor the Traladarans are totally good or totally evil. Its the only region that I think attempts to deal with how to build a kingdom out of two differing peoples that will continue past its king's life. I believe, from some of the responses, many see the Traladarans as victims. They aren't. So much of their philosophy of life concerns that they are a great people and no matter what hardships are placed before them, they will survive and thrive. I think Stefan and the Thyatians have brought them new ways to see that future. Eventually, much of the Traladaran way will make it into the Karameikan culture due to the numbers of Traladarans. Some methods will give way to the Thyatian method. But at present, there is no true Karameikan culture, only the beginnings of that culture to come. Its not going to be completely Traladaran nor completely Thyatian. Karameikos will face obstacles external and internal but those will only serve to make the kingdom's people stronger. Creating a nation is a messy business. Its a great time for Karameikos as the Thyatian ingenuity and the Traladaran determination are melded together. The unknown element to me is the elven population and how they will influence the nation. Perhaps becoming the third player in the forging. A little dramatic but so what? :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:30:15 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. > > That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could they > steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without the force > of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their property back. > Perhaps that is what you are suggesting happened? Stefan's armies supported them. If the Traladarans were able to oust him, they would have succedeed in their first revolts. > Since there are no examples other than Ludwig of such ruthless nobles, they > must have eliminated themselves by coming under the scrutiny of Stefan, or > reforming, or being driven off by the populace. None of this events is mentioned in the Gaz. > > > Since the majority of the country is as well off or /better/ as a > > > result of Stefan's actions (I point to Threshold and Kelvin, as examples of > > > /better/), Davinos comes from the supposedly "better" Kelvin, IIRC. > > Are Traladarans better off? How? And they are the majority of the > > country. > > The organised military presence in the interior that protects the settlements > and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. There isn't any proof that Stefan's army is more effective than the Thyatian Legions. > Roads are better. Trade > has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a result of the > preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where it was not > previously. Did Stefan found the CoT? > There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > established where there was none. Etc., etc. For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for example) > The country /is/ better off. Not the same opinion of many Traladarans. > > > It's also worth noting that Olivia doesn't ever get such information, > > > either, and she has a tidy little information gathering network. No mention of this fact, either. The fact > > > is, very little information that would be damning ever leaves the Black > > > Eagle Barony. Actually, quite a large number of escapees live i Luln. Stefan just needs to go there and ask. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:32:18 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > Actually, this "just" judgement normally ends in a week or two of jail > > for the petitioner (without trial, of course). > > No it doesn't! That happens to be the punishment for deliberately wasting the > court's time, but that is not what "normally" happens. It is a deterrant > against bogging down what is supposed to be the ultimate Ombudsman. Wasting, in Stefan's mind, which is the ultimate paragon of justice and virtue, isn't it? > > Hardly a paragon of > > justice and virtue available to all, unless "justice and virtue" is > > equals to "his own whims". The "open court" only replaces Justice with a > > form of arbitrary judgement (which would be fit for a chaotic ruler). > > Perhaps that's the way you play it, but that's not how I see it. No, it's just the way it is: even if Stefan doesn't abuse the system, the system *is* inherently flawed. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:38:12 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Though the freemen of Karameikos can be sentenced > without trial by the > Duke or the Duchess. Are there any instances of this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:38:51 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C44B5.7F6A0BC@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > After, all, one might as well argue that Hitler too had good > > > intentions, he REALLY WANTED TO HELP Germans. > > > > Enough with the attempt to make Stefan a Nazi. I would /not/ argue > > that Hitler had good intentions, and I would not want to associate with > > anyone who would. Hitler attacked neighbours he was at peace with and > > slaughtered millions of innocents. There is no parallel to Stefan there. > > > I am not comparing or even mentioning those things. You brought them up. Uh ... sure. Look, I did not bring up Hitler, you did. (Anyone who doubts that can look back at the archives.) If you were /not/ trying to draw a parallel between Hitler and Stefan, why did you bring him up? If you /are/ trying to draw a parallel, I am showing that it is clearly wrong to do so. > > Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against > > humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. This > > did not > > Hitler did all that too. Good heavens! You are really a piece of work. You clearly /are/ trying to draw a parallel to Hitler! Look, all of the things that made Hitler evil are absent from Stefan. Is that clear enough for you? Obviously showing specific examples of this fact (like I did at first) is not enough to get the point across. > > happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, > > and indeed they get things they wanted out of the new way things are run, > > as well. > > > No, it happened at the expense of Traladarans. You are obviously unwilling to see that the Traladarans benefited at all. I've given examples of how they have, above, but that may not be enough. If you do not want to be convinced it is impossible to do so, but I think there is enough in canon to support me. > > This is a reasonable stance to take, though I don't personally think > > he believes he's the only one who knows what "good" is. I think he would > > agree with the patriarchs of Traladaran and Karameikan Churches about what > > good is. It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both > > major (and good!) religions in the region support his rule. > > > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right now. Let's say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil or unfit. > He wishes to see the return of Traladara's Golden Age, but no mention is > made of Stefan. Indeed, he considers members of the Cult of Halav (who > preach that Stefan will bring about the Golden Age) quite mad. That's fine. Stefan thinks they're mad, too. > Plus, his > parents were killed in the Marilenev rebellion. All this seems to > indicate that the Patriarch is resigned to having Stefan in charge, > having no other choice. A Patriarch always has a choice. Being that powerful, they have only to support someone else. > > Again, you use the example of someone who used hate as a force to > > maintain power. > > > Eventually, yes. Initially though Milosevic's intentions were to help > the Serb minority in Kosovo. Hello? What happened after the Serb minority was no longer oppressed? Did Milosevic choose peace? Look, why don't you quit with the attempts at IRL parallels; you're digging yourself into an indefensible position. > > Please see what I had to say about this in a previous post. The point > > is, Stefan /does/ do good works and does /not/ have evil intentions, or at > > least, it is never demonstrated that he intends evil when he acts. > > > Good works at what expense? That's a good question; although I'm sure you meant it rhetorically, it comes out quite ironic. No-one suffers directly under Stefan's rule, and his chief vassals (Barons Kelvin and Threshold) are also good rulers. The sole exception is the Black Baron. Moreover, there /are/ still some Traladaran nobles. Some people seem to forget that. > I would also compare Stefan to the Kingpriest of Istar. Good intentions, > but poor execution which ultimately leads to downfall. Is this from DragonLance? I'm not familiar with the setting, so I can't comment on this allusion, but I suspect I would disagree again. > > Milosovec, on the other hand, was clearly evil when he attempted to > > commit genocide, and there's just no way to assign a good intent to that. > > > People *can* do some horrible things while having good intentions. I'm still waiting for an example. The last one didn't convince me. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:57:07 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > Quoting Solmyr : > > > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > > What irks me about this point is that they never say who these > > > ruthless men actually were. Perhaps they later lost their appointments? > > > Are Barons Kelvin > > > > They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. > > That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could they > steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without the force > of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their property back. > Perhaps that is what you are suggesting happened? > > Since there are no examples other than Ludwig of such ruthless nobles, they > must have eliminated themselves by coming under the scrutiny of Stefan, or > reforming, or being driven off by the populace. > > Anyway, I argue that it's vague who these people were, and there is only the > one remaining example as of A.C. 1000, of which Stefan is unaware. No there is one more example, a minor noble in the region of Threshold, basically a landed lord. He was described in Dungeon Magazine issue #42. There are many such landed lords undescribed throughout Karameikos. >The organised military presence in the interior that protects the settlements >and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. Roads are better. Trade >has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a result of the >preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where it was not >previously. There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was >established where there was none. Etc., etc. It is debatable as to whether how much of these benefits are seen by the Traladarans. The main wealthy Traladaran families have seen their wealth decline, not grow. How much better off is the average Traladaran peasant? And I disagree that high level clerical aid was not available, the Patriarch of the Traladaran Church is 11th level, which gives him access to 5th level spells like Cure Critical Wounds and Raise Dead. While the magical guild is new and a direct result of the Thyatians, the cities were there before the Thyatians came. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:42:29 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1C4539.D70B2716@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > In its place, he gave his subjects the means to seek justice by > > skipping the bureaucracy and talking directly to the Duke. Not a bad deal, > > really. > > > We've seen how much that helps (see "Davinos' Complaint" in Gaz1). Actually, how that plays out depends on the the players and the DM. But, I would point out that Davinos did /not/ get summarily jailed as it's been suggested "normally" happens. > > I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he was making sweeping > > changes and people are naturally resistent to change. Once things were > > shown to be as good or better, the complaining stopped. > > > How were things shown to be better? When did the complaining stop? I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't think it said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule stopped, but it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:41:10 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C61C2.5A53CBDC@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/22/00 05:16 PM, you wrote: >Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is definitely not Middle Age >(at least not in the Western European way). Also, beyond Darokin and >Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. No, I'd call it pre-Middle Age. I don't guess this really helps with the topic but we have Thyatis, Karameikos, and Darokin. If you place them on a timeline, you have Byzantine, Middle Ages, and Renaissance. So even considering what's around Karameikos, I think it still comes up a Middle Age kingdom. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Eustace Subject: Karameikos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Well, after reading this interesting debate, with many unique and well thought out views on both sides, I've decided to weigh in as well. I have been reluctant to enter the fray since RW issues are restricting me from full participation and I'd like to be able to respond to any feedback. It might take me a while to respond to any replies, and I'll be away from e-mail access for the next few days. Anyways, here goes: First a bit of history on the whole subject. The original info in X1 and the Expert set was all there was to go on for Duke Stefan. It was assumed that he was a benevolent ruler and Karameikos was used as the staging ground for many of the early modules. The Black Eagle was there as a villain, but details were very few. There was no info on Traladarans vs. Thyatians, etc., there was just Duke Stefan ruling over a pretty wild country. He was allied with elves and gnomes (good), and opposed to goblins and other monsters(evil). Why the Black Eagle Barony (BEB) was allowed to co-exist was not well explained, either. I always assumed that Ludwig was given a dominion and then built it up quite quickly to deter a military response from Stefan. Essentially, it was a foreign country within the Ducal boundaries. With two roughly equal militas, we had a stalemate. This is supported by the scenario in the Companion set, and by the events in X10 (before they were pushed to 1200 AC). I believe the intention always was for Stefan to be a good ruler, but GAZ1, WotI, the MAs, and K:KoA (which I don't have, BTW) have left room for other interpretations. Basically, GAZ1 had to be retro-fit based on the info already available and still seem plausible, and even there, Stefan is still presented as Lawful (Good, presumably, but I agree that LN makes sense, too). With all of the material available today, we can put Stefan under the microscope and scrutinize each and every action or non-action, and come up with evidence to back up whatever POV we want. Much of what has been argued, is done by assigning 20th century moral values to a 14-15th century fantasy setting. It is always possible to write a revisionist history and to re-interpret things depending on POV. Post-modern relativism assumes that no one culture is better than any other, so therefore, conquering a nation and encouraging your way of life on the natives, is seen as wrong. Today we have people protesting and demonizing Columbus, and other European explorers. I'm sure some of them were greedy and self-serving, but others thought that teaching European ways to the Indians was a very good thing. The same thing still happens today by encouraging democracy, modern economics, etc. "Let's show you OUR way. It's better than your old way." Would well intentioned people trying to improve a way of life they honestly saw as inferior be considered "evil"? Or would it be more evil to let the primitive tribe continue w/o medicine, etc. and let the local witch doctor help the sick? "I'm sorry, but it would be wrong for me to impose my values on you. I'm just going to walk away and not try to teach you anything." The nationalistic view of the Traladarans to self-determinate has also colored the arguments. But, nationalism really wasn't a big deal until the late 1800s. Many of the European nations which we have today were ruled over by the same noble families. Nobles across country lines had more in common with each other than with their peasants and vice-versa. It didn't matter that much to them who ruled. They were obliged to serve their liege, whoever that may be. When we look at this through our modern nationalistic view, we see the poor oppressed Traladarans, being ground under by the Thyatians. Of course the nobles would care, but the commoners might not. The spirit of Karameikos was intended to be a harmonious union of two cultures. I looked at it as an attempt to blend and keep the better aspects of each, not as a Thyatian attempt to eliminate the Traladaran culture completely. Yes, he did occupy the land with troops at first, and from the Tral. noble POV, this was not good. GAZ1 states that the nobles saw this as their chance to oust Stefan while he was still not established, and to re-assert their own power. Then they tried to kill him and start a revolt. To bring the leaders to justice is only natural. What else should he have done, turned around and sailed back to Thyatis? Or decided to work with the nobles plotting against him? Much of this, like anything, depends on POV. As a Traladaran sympathizer, of course his actions can be called evil. But we don't really see that in GAZ1. We see some friction between cultures, but that both will call themselves "Karameikan" to a foreigner. The image in GAZ1 is of a growing nation of two integrating cultures, not a conquered people trying to reclaim their freedom. On Ludwig and the BEB: Stefan's detractors are insisting that he had to have known and been a willing accomplice to Ludwig. "How could he not have known? Look at all of the evidence!" As DMs, we do have all of the evidence, and access to the full story, but that doesn't mean that the character Stefan has the same info. The GAZ states that he has difficulty seeing evil in his own family. This was condensed to "he has trouble seeing evil in others" in PWA1. What it says in K:KoA, I don't know. This seems pretty obvious to me. We have all seen the families of real life killers and other criminals on TV, etc., and they always come out with something about how their relative could never have done that and they'll be proven innocent. They never say, "oh yeah, my brother is a viscious monster. I knew it was only a matter of time before he did something like this". It's called denial. That's what Stefan has. That doesn't make him evil, it makes him human. If anything, I'd say he is naive, and a bit too trusting of his relatives, which would indicate a low Wisdom, not an evil align. And since when is youthful ambition and the desire to make a mark on the world considered bad? "Hey Mom & Dad, I want to open my own business, and be successful." "No. Do the right thing and remain in the struggling family business your whole life." Aaron Allston comes up with a noble, viable, believable reason for Stefan to leave Thyatis and it gets ripped to shreds. Why all the second guessing? On slavery: Another subject difficult to look at w/o tainting by our modern perspective. In Thyatis, Alphatia, etc., it is the cultural norm to have slaves (just as it was in colonial America). The fact of slave ownership shouldn't be used as a basis for determining alignment (but how they treat those slaves can). In those cultures, it is not seen as wrong. In fact, people speaking against it would be looked at funny. It takes a long time for a cultural element like that to change. It took a bloody and divisive Civil War in the US. GW and T. Jefferson obviously owned slaves, but had 2nd thoughts about it. The tide of the culture was stacked against them in their time. The fact that they didn't free all of their slaves and fight for their rights doesn't make them evil. Time and place have to be kept in perspective. Had they done so, they would have lost a good deal of influence, prestige, and wealth, and lost the chance to effect the total abolition of slavery years later, from the seeds that they had sown. The fact that Stefan outlawed slavery when he became Duke of Traladara is telling given his cultural background and the times. He grew up surrounded by slaves, in an empire where it is perfectly accepted, yet he still dislikes it enough to abolish it. If he were purely motivated by greed and self-interest, then he would have welcomed the dirt cheap labor which would have given a HUGE economic boost to his new land. As far as the events of WotI go, Stefan does what is in the *National Interest*, the same as any other country would do. Would it be for the good of his people if he sacrificed them in an unwinnable war vs. Alphatia? Especially when the Desert Nomads were having a field day in nearby Darokin? That would be irresponsible. Thincol started the conflict after making a secret treaty w. Glantri. That means that Stefan knew nothing about it, and he probably thought Thincol was nuts. A mutual defense treaty implies the threat of unprovoked aggression. Stefan wasn't necessarily obligated to help when Thaytis decided to meddle in a foreign conflict. We don't have the actual treaty, so we don't really know exactly what it said. Yes, Stefan made out in the aftermath, but didn't the whole country? Or would it have been better if he had helped Thaytis based on some out-dated treaty and cost his subject's lives for it? What if the Master had held on to Darokin and continued his campaign into the Shires and Karameikos? It seems like the people of Karameikos came out more prosperous and better off than before Wrath. Well, that's my bit on this whole thing. And no offense to anyone with the opposing viewpoint. It's just a game. Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving Dan Eustace ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:27:27 +1300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, many people lost their lands to the thyatian followers of > Stefan. Look at the History of Karameikos section, under the growth of > Karameikos: it says that the Thyatians used false documents to get the > traladarans' lands. Later, it says that Kelvin wasn't involved, but the > Davinos adventure states that many traladarans' holdings were destroyed. I stand corrected. I would still assume these were bigger titles, with many people under them rather then small ones. Any ideas how false documents help? I'm just trying to picture it. To me it's like england conquering india with the cunning use of flags. "we claim this land for england." "you can't do that" "why not" "there's 5 million of us here!" "do you have a flag." "no" "well thats too bad then isn't it!" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:22:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Yes, but weather he goes to hell or not is not the issue, it's what his alignment should be, and thus *is* he a good, average(neutral), or evil man. Gennerally only the good avoid hell, stefan has done bad things, but always means well (I believe) and so is neutral > Hordes of people screaming at him that Ludwig is an > evil bastard who > rapes and murders isn't real enough? simply, NO. and there arn't hordes of people, there should be, but there isn't. the ocational unproved roumor to a lawful man is nothing. > This didn't however prevent Stefan from pretending > that Karameikos > wasn't sovereign. And the two still did sign a > treaty of mutual defense > which Stefan subsequently ignored. I doubt stefan ignored it, but what did thytis expect? Thytis : "Here alphatia, pick on us insted of glantri" Alphatia : "o.k." Stefan : "you stupid stupid boy, look what you did." Thytis : "ow!" Stefan : "now we have to pick up the peices" Moral of the story, don't pick fight's if you don't know that you can win. Thincol was gambleing, stefan wasn't. Also I suspect the mutral defence treatys had a bunch of clauses we don't know about, including compensation and payment for troops (see companion set, thytainian mercenaries, NOT thytainian soldiers, IIRC we do not know who was paying them.) And I suspect Thytis said send troops, not here's money for your troops. Why is that so hard to believe? Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:36:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C5B8E.BF983372@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against > > humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. > > IYO, you should add. So, these are /not/ good things? I don't think this is /just/ IMO. > I don't think anyone asked Stefan to set up a > stable government, a military, etc. > The Traladarans had fared well for centuries without him, and would have > continued that way for many other, if it was their choice. Well, that's arguable and that's where we enter the grey areas. However, Traladarans /are/ participants in the country, not just some victims, as of 1000 A.C. Also, the country at large prospers more for the infrastructure that he put in place. If more prosperity in general is not what you consider good, oh well. However, it is clear that Stefan and many others on Mystara consider it good. Perhaps you would argue that the Traladarans would eventually have improved themselves in the absence of interference, but the fact is the Traladarans would never have been left alone to choose their destiny anyway. As a part of the Empire, they were relegated to hicks and the territory was considered a potential threat, because it was a frontier full of dangerous humanoids without any organised local way of dealing with them. > > This did not > > happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, > and > > Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the Hin > too. Sheesh. This is obviously a misrepresentation of my position. I was pointing out that Stefan didn't generally go around slaughtering and was using still /other/ examples than the Traladarans. I was also pointing out that Traladarans were not the only ones who benefited from Stefan being Duke. All of these things are indications of being a good ruler. I didn't mention the Hin because there are no specific communities of them in Karameikos. > > indeed they get things they wanted out of the new way things are run, > as well. > > The fact that Traladara's neighbours (but only *some* of them) got an > advantage from Stefan's actions does not justifies them. All of Traladara's neighbours benefited from a more stable political situation among the humans. (Except the humanoids, of course.) > I mean, if > someone steals some money from your neighbour, the fact that he's > willing to share the loot with you does not make him less of a thief (at > most, it may show that you aren't a good neighbour, in the end). Well, that's not the way I see it as happening. Stefan didn't steal from the Traladarans and give to the Elves, and Gnomes. He started /managing/ the country and the change of management was resented at first, but the results 30 years later (outside of Black Eagle) are good. The benefits to the elves and gnomes were safer trade routes, guaranteed non- interference, normalised and formalised relations, etc., etc. > > It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major > (and good!) religions in the region support his rule. > > Actually, the Patriarch of the Traladaran Church is hostile to Stefan. > The Gaz says that it is because he is friend with Jowett that he has > decided to try assimilating the Thyatians instead of trying to chase > them (and, I may add, because the revolts have already failed). Jowett is the Patriarch of the CoK, right? So, how did they become friends? Also, Stefan and Jowett are friends, too, correct? Anyway, a point I made in another post stands: If Stefan were an evil or unfit ruler, both Patriarchs would have a moral imperative to act against him. They don't. > As to the religions being good, I must say that only the Church of > Traladara is basically good. The Church of Karameikos is Lawful > (Neutral, with individuals free to range from Evil to Good), and the > Cult of Halav is definitely Chaotic Neutral. I had always taken the Churches to be "good." I don't want to get into a big disagreement about it, but I don't have any material that says otherwise. I would agree that the Cult is generally Chaotic Neutral in character, though. > > > > (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is > > > > causing more good makes him good. > > I don't follow you, really... you are arguing that a madman who believes > that helps them > *is* good, just because he believes it? > I think Solmyr's reasoning applies perfectly here: you are willing to > justify anyone on the basis of his own belief (which is wrong, IMO), but > then you are (correctly, IMNSHO) refusing to apply this definition to > Solmyr's examples, just because they are more extreme than Stefan. > This brings to contradiction, which, if you like, proves that your > statemant above here doesn't stand. Actually, I didn't make the original statement. I jumped into the thread after that. However, I believe the original intent of the statement was to say that someone who is sane and trying to do good, and thinks he /is/ doing good, should be considered a good person. In contrast, you represent his position as: a person who believes evil is good is a good person. That's incorrect. Because of this, Solmyr's reasoning does not apply. I think the point we disagree on, really, is whether Stefan was aware of what was going on. I don't think he was, and canon seems to agree. If he /was/ aware and did nothing, that would make him evil - or incompetent. That seems to be the argument. I'm just trying to distill it. Apparently, some people who have read all the canon find it hard to believe that Stefan didn't know, but that's what it seems to say, nonetheless. I don't find it so hard to believe, but hey, that's me. > > Karameikos is a pluralistic society that works toward the betterment > > of the whole, and certainly not at the intentional expense of an ethnic > > group, for any reason. There /is/ grass-roots "Traladaran" buy-in on his > > government. > > Actually, Karameikos is *based* on ethnic oppositions: Stefan plays one > group against the other (he uses the Traladarans to guard the Thyatian > border, and the worst Thyatian to guard the Hin border). Again, this is ascribing specific intents where I don't think it's necessary. You can imagine it that way in your campaign, but it is /not/ necessary. Stefan put important nobles (that he thinks are loyal!) where he thought they could do the most good. He put his cousin on the border to the Malpheggi Swamp, which is peopled by lizardmen and monsters, and where there happens to be alot of piracy (Hin, Ierendian, etc., etc.). Threshold is out on the mountainous borders where there are large numbers of orcs. Kelvin helps guard against the goblins of the Dymrak. I don't recall if it says the Rugalov Keep is mainly Traladarans or not, but I don't think it's worth arguing about. It hardly matters. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:40:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1C5C06.97BD828A@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he was making sweeping > > changes and people are naturally resistent to change. Once things were > > shown to be as good or better, the complaining stopped. > > Since they're still complaining after 30 years, I would guess they > weren't that good. Oh, fine. "Complaining" was probably a poor choice of words. (People will /always/ complain.) How about "unrest?" There is no measurable Traladaran unrest in Karameikos as of 1000 A.C. except when it is manufactured by people like the criminal Veiled Society. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:40:45 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I mean that selling Traladara is different from > selling the title of > Duke of Traladara, which would have been the "usual" > Thyatian deal. do elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The land belongs to thyatis, so it can be sold. Stefan was a duke, and couldn't be made a duke again, cause it wouldn't change anything. Land comes with an established dukedom, but to establish a new dukedom you need new land. Thats what I get. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > At 11/22/00 12:29 PM, you wrote: > >But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's > the realm of > >deception! Also, the whole setting is more > Renaissance than Middle Age > >oriented. > > Darokin is the only nation in a Renaissance period, > I think. Karameikos > seems modeled after a High Middle Age kingdom. Thyatis and alphatia are Renaissance too. It is a lot to do with the usefulness of armor and the workings of warfare and politics. But I'm sure Karameikos is medieval. (it's noted in the PWA's) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:46:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A1C5CEF.6C383FF5@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Also, the situation is not that much different from Thyatis in point > > of fact, although it might be in apparent process. If the Emperor decided > > he wanted a man dead, he has only to get his personal guard to plant some > > evidence, then appoint a magistrate to try him and then sentence him > > however the Emperor likes. > > The difference is that while any political/juridical system is easily > disrupted by the presence of unjust individuals, Stefan's (as well as > any autocratic) system is flawed in its own concept (That is, the Duke > needs not abuse/bend the law to sentence someone). Okay, but my point was that having this authority does not make Duke Stefan evil, nor a bad ruler. Perhaps it's a flawed idea, but until it fails in practice, he and his successors, and his subjects, will find no reason to find fault with the idea. With a good ruler that respects the concept of noblesse oblige (as I believe Stefan does, although I know there are some that disagree), it provides a very good way of ensuring there is accountability among the other arms of the government. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:56:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I disagree that this is his attitude. I think he > was making sweeping changes > > and people are naturally resistent to change. > Once things were shown to be as > > good or better, the complaining stopped. > > I agree, and tried argueing this, but didn't take the time to structure it very well. > How were things shown to be better? When did the > complaining stop? When did it continue to? I would assume that it's lack of mention to my knowledge(excluding the Black eagle) and it's playing down indicate that things are better. (But I'm sure someone will be able to tell me that I'm wrong, but to me the arguement needs both sides to be complete.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:01:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C612B.3B09BCB2@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I would say family in-fighting usually happened in established > > families to gain advantage over equals. That's not the case. > > Stefan did a tremendous favour to his non-inheriting cousin Ludwig, > > and expected loyalty in return. > > Stefan's family was established. He had no heir, or only infant heirs, > for quite a long time. And Ludwig was behaving in a theatrical way, at > least for a time (his "conquest" of Halag, for example). Okay, so you're saying that Stefan had reason to suspect or worry that his cousin might try something. Perhaps. However, that is specifically listed as his character flaw. I also say it's not that unreasonable. The Black Eagle barony ought to be a handful, given potential incursions from the swamp, piracy, etc., so it might be reasonable to say that someone might expect him to be too busy to hatch a scheme to take the throne - even if Stefan didn't have his problem of trusting his cousin too much. > > Regarding the Robin Hood parallel, there is no such similar hero that > > ever comes out of Black Eagle. Possibly there would never have been a > > Robin Hood if Prince John had a 14th level wizard on his side, either. > > Even in the Robin Hood story, John if defeated only when (and as soon > as!) the Lionheart comes back, IIRC. The difference I see is that the > Lionheart strongly acts to preserve his power, and coincidentially to > help the people, while Stefan's inaction strenghtens the Black Eagle and > cause the people to be oppressed. King Richard's inaction (while on the crusades) strengthened Prince John and caused the people to be repressed. If Stefan had the facts, he would act decisively. He wouldn't need to attribute treasonous actions with "evil" but merely corruption, which is a concept he would be familiar with from Thyatis. > > Well, most of the deception and skullduggery in Thyatis seems to > > revolve around the Senate, and not the nobility. > > Proof of this statement? AFAIK, DotE says all Thyatians have a fair > chance to act that way. Fair point. I don't remember reading about any in-fighting amongst the nobles, but I guess that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It could still be that Karameikos never personally experienced it. > > > > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. > > > > > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... > > > > Good point. How smart is Bargle, though? > > High intelligence but low wisdom, which means great planning, but with > the stereotypical archvillain's flaws: underestimating. Notice that, > while Stefan isn't at genious level, he is (should be) far more wise > than Bargle or Ludwig. Also, Bargle as not always been Ludwig's court > wizard. Stefan had quite a long time to realize that Ludwig was not only > evil, but also a danger to his own power! True, but Stefan has also had many more things to draw away his attention from his cousin. > > Perhaps past events (painted with a different coloured brush by > Ludwig) made > > the area seem more likely to have a native uprising. Once the fort > was built, > > it would be silly to abandon it. Also, the Fort may have multiple > purposes, > > like being a more woodsy outpost and thus a more congenial venue to > meet and > > discuss matters with the Callarii. > > Well, it's more his original use that puzzles me: I mean, there was > little population in the area (Luln was formed by Black Eagle Barony > refugees later), there was little hope to colonize the Callarii lands, > and there was the Riverfork garrison (and good cousin Ludwig!) so near. > Also, Kelvin was already being built near the Callarii lands, and was > surely more apt to host friendly meetings. All good points. Then, what /would/ be a good reason to originally put the fort there? Perhaps Stefan did it to help "back up" his cousin when he kept getting reports of unrest? =;) Can anyone else give an explanation? - Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:01:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >The "open court" only > replaces Justice with a > form of arbitrary judgement (which would be fit for > a chaotic ruler). How is an open court the cause for an arbitrary judgement, do you think that todays courts deliver arbitrary judgements? There is Justice, and there is law. Law is not justice. law tries to give justice, but how well it does depends on the system. An open court should be more likely to give justice then a closed one. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:04:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C61C2.5A53CBDC@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > > > At 11/22/00 12:29 PM, you wrote: > > >But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of > > >deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle > Age > > >oriented. > > > > Darokin is the only nation in a Renaissance period, I think. > Karameikos > > seems modeled after a High Middle Age kingdom. > > Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is definitely not Middle Age > (at least not in the Western European way). Also, beyond Darokin and > Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. Mystara in general is full of anachronistic influences. I agree, though, that Karameikos seems modelled after High Middle Age kingdoms. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:21:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Solmyr wrote: > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > After, all, one might as well argue that Hitler > too had good intentions, > > > he REALLY WANTED TO HELP Germans. And kill the jews (not even just convert them, but cause genocide) That's the difference. If hitler hadn't wanted to kill all those jew's and just set out to conquer the world he wouldn't have been have been half as bad. Another difference, stefan knows conquering the world isn't going to happen, Hitler thought he could. This gives different attitudes entirely. > > Enough with the attempt to make Stefan a Nazi. I > would /not/ argue that Hitler > > had good intentions, and I would not want to > associate with anyone who would. > > Hitler attacked neighbours he was at peace with > and slaughtered millions of > > innocents. There is no parallel to Stefan there. > > > I am not comparing or even mentioning those things. > You brought them up. > > > Setting up a stable government, a military to > defend the land against humanoid > > incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were > good things. This did not > > Hitler did all that too. And tryed to kill all the Jew's. > > happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the > elves or the gnomes, and > > indeed they get things they wanted out of the new > way things are run, as well. > > > No, it happened at the expense of Traladarans. Their "backwards" culture mostly, that seems to be the biggest complaint. If capitalism dissappeared overnight and was replaced by something better I wouldn't complain but someone would. > > This is a reasonable stance to take, though I > don't personally think he > > believes he's the only one who knows what "good" > is. I think he would agree > > with the patriarchs of Traladaran and Karameikan > Churches about what good is. > > It's also worth reminding everyone that the > patriarchs of both major (and > > good!) religions in the region support his rule. > > > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as > "supporting Stefan's rule". > He wishes to see the return of Traladara's Golden > Age, but no mention is > made of Stefan. Indeed, he considers members of the > Cult of Halav (who > preach that Stefan will bring about the Golden Age) > quite mad. Plus, his > parents were killed in the Marilenev rebellion. All > this seems to > indicate that the Patriarch is resigned to having > Stefan in charge, > having no other choice. > > > Again, you use the example of someone who used > hate as a force to maintain > > power. > > > Eventually, yes. Initially though Milosevic's > intentions were to help > the Serb minority in Kosovo. > > > Please see what I had to say about this in a > previous post. The point is, > > Stefan /does/ do good works and does /not/ have > evil intentions, or at least, > > it is never demonstrated that he intends evil when > he acts. > > > Good works at what expense? What do you mean what expence? > I would also compare Stefan to the Kingpriest of > Istar. Good intentions, > but poor execution which ultimately leads to > downfall. Thus a good person. > > Milosovec, on the other hand, was clearly evil > when he attempted to commit > > genocide, and there's just no way to assign a good > intent to that. > > > People *can* do some horrible things while having > good intentions. Doesn't make them evil, just ignorant or criminal. Death is bad, torture & death is horrible. Stefan would not do the second in my opinion, and would avoid the first when possible. It is his *right* to rule. Thats how medieval society works. For god and king etc etc. But given he rules, does he try to rule nicely and leave a thriving kingdom, or get as much personal wealth as possible and control everything? To me, stefan is A, and von Hendriks is B. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C6517.BFEC2ACB@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. > > > > That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could > > they steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without > > the force of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their > > property back. Perhaps that is what you are suggesting happened? > > Stefan's armies supported them. If the Traladarans were able to oust > him, they would have succedeed in their first revolts. I believe the principle revolt was in Specularum when he declared himself ruler. That's how I read it, anyway. I still say this point is dodgy in canon, because there isn't enough detail. There are obviously still Traladaran land owners. There are still Traladaran nobles. Also, I remember reading that these "ruthless" men were not in the majority, either. > > Since there are no examples other than Ludwig of such ruthless nobles, > > they must have eliminated themselves by coming under the scrutiny of > > Stefan, or reforming, or being driven off by the populace. > > None of this events is mentioned in the Gaz. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, either. Anyway, we are both arguing from a lack of evidence. Given that, it could be argued either way. In any event, I do remember the Gaz saying something along the lines that the people respect Stefan, if not necessarily Thyatians in general. > > > > Since the majority of the country is as well off or /better/ as a > > > > result of Stefan's actions (I point to Threshold and Kelvin, as > > > > examples of /better/), > > Davinos comes from the supposedly "better" Kelvin, IIRC. > > > > Are Traladarans better off? How? And they are the majority of the > > > country. > > > > The organised military presence in the interior that protects the > > settlements and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. > > There isn't any proof that Stefan's army is more effective than the > Thyatian Legions. Perhaps they're not more effective on a per man basis, but that's not the point. There are more forts and more troops because of Stefan, giving better overall security to the region and the interior Traladaran population. IIRC, Thyatis interests in the area were principally around the capital, and coverage was likely light elsewhere. > > Roads are better. Trade has been expanded and resource industries have > > improved as a result of the preceding points. High level clerical aid is > > available where it was not previously. > > Did Stefan found the CoT? No, but he did bring the CoK. Two or three more Patriarchs makes a difference. Two of them are in the interior, where such aid did not previously exist. > > There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > > established where there was none. Etc., etc. > > For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the > Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for > example) Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's founder, and even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. > > The country /is/ better off. > > Not the same opinion of many Traladarans. But, it is the opinion of many Karameikans ... even many of strictly Traladaran descent. > > > > It's also worth noting that Olivia doesn't ever get such > information, > > > > either, and she has a tidy little information gathering network. > No mention of this fact, either. Have a look at Olivia's character description. (Not just the stats, either!) > The fact > > > > is, very little information that would be damning ever leaves the > Black > > > > Eagle Barony. > > Actually, quite a large number of escapees live i Luln. Stefan just > needs to go there and ask. I'm not saying that there aren't escapees. I'm saying there's never any /proof/ of wrongdoing that can be attributed to his cousin that ever leaves the barony. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:35:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > They might have been nepotistic, but not foolish. Yes they were foolish, completely ignorant in fact. What stoped them. It is not until the renassance that society becomes more "civilized znd educated (mostly because of the printing press) > Also, in the RW middle > age family infighting was the standard behaviour. > Even in semi-legendary > stories, like Robin Hood, the evil (or, better, > incompetent & traitor) > relative is ousted, in the end. can anyone say von-hendricks? > > 2) If you go by Earth-style politics and history, > people in a > > medievel setting would be much more trusting. > Sophisticated > > deception and misdirection was extremely rare. > > But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's > the realm of > deception! Also, the whole setting is more > Renaissance than Middle Age > oriented. comes from, but doesn't belong in. He *escaped* it. I covered the Renaissance thing in another post. But thytais is only just Renaissance and when stefan left it may have still been medieval. > > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. It is > not much of > > a stretch to assume that Stefan would give his > cousin every > > chance to explain any charges made against The > Black Eagle. > > After all, unless the source of such charges > is completely > > unimpeachable who would Stefan be more likely > to believe? > > Stefan may even suspect, in his > heart-of-hearts that the charges > > are true. So what? Family is family, and blood > is thinker than > > water... > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... that is not an indication of deviousness, or the ability to see it, but an indicator of if he was accoustomed to it, how good he'd be. He's not accostomed to it so he sucks at it. I'd say this "political" aspect of thytis has bacome much more widespread since his departure if we assume that thyatis was still primarally medieval at thyatis point. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:43:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C5D53.55A3EACB@palmchip.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Dave Keyser : [snip] > > Anyway, I argue that it's vague who these people were, and there is > > only the one remaining example as of A.C. 1000, of which Stefan is unaware. > > No there is one more example, a minor noble in the region of Threshold, > basically a landed lord. He was described in Dungeon Magazine issue #42. There is?! Cool! I have to look that up when I get home. > There are many such landed lords undescribed throughout Karameikos. I think that is left up to the DM. > >The organised military presence in the interior that protects the > >settlements and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. Roads are > >better. Trade has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a > >result of the preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where > >it was not previously. There are cities now where there were none. A > >magical guild was established where there was none. Etc., etc. > > It is debatable as to whether how much of these benefits are seen by the > Traladarans. The main wealthy Traladaran families have seen their wealth > decline, not grow. That has been through competition and incompetence (Torenescus), not wickedness on the part of the ruler. > How much better off is the average Traladaran peasant? And I disagree > that high level clerical aid was not available, the Patriarch of the > Traladaran Church is 11th level, which gives him access to 5th level spells > like Cure Critical Wounds and Raise Dead. This was not available in the /interior/. Now there are two Patriarchs in the interior, due to Stefan's rule. > While the magical guild is new and a direct result of the Thyatians, the > cities were there before the Thyatians came. Really? Where could I look that up? (Thanks in advance.) -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:50:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > You folks are saying Stefan is evil because > > Not evil, just not a good ruler. well if that was the issue I wouldn't be argueing. I accept he is not the best ruler and there could be better, but he is not terible ruler or iron fisted tyrant to me either. > However, and I think this point has been lost in > this discussion, yes your issue has, because it is not the main issue :-) > That much I do agree on! Although reading some of > Jenn's stuff > has lead me to look even more critically at > Karameikos. There is > much more adventure possibility there than I saw > before, and I > always liked Karameikos for it's 'powder keg' like > nature anyway. Thats if you can stand jenn's viewpoint on it (nothing personal but her view of Karameikos clashes with mine, the work is good quality, and if you want the game like that fine, but to me it just doesn't say Karameikos. It would be fine for adventuring in 800 AC but the world would be far less complex in it's political issues I feel. For an AC 1000 campaign I must differ. However I do see as much potential for adventure, but it has a very different flavor. I think that is why we dissagree so badly) Still if it's fun for you thats what it's all about. :-) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:56:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > You are correct, when he was older and more mature, > he betrayed Thyatis, > which was a very smart decision. His country > avoided fighting Alphatia, > and got a magic school out of it. In the short > term, it was very smart, long > term remains to be seen. But breaking treaties when > convenient isn't what > is commonly known as "good" alignment. I don't think he betrayed thyatis, or broke a treaty. When you read the treaty and tell me how he broke it, I'll believe you. opps, that right, you can't because it was never given in canon. Oh well. I don't think Thyatis would have been on good terms with him after the war had he broken their "treaty of eternal frendship" Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:21:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > No. Intentions are only part of the matter. Intentions are most of the matter to me. It's how he thinks, his "personallity" not the things that happen around him. > To the persons who die as a result of Stefan's > feckless apointments and refusal to correct his > errors, the result is the same. Bad result does not equil bad person. > Now, what do we think of someone who commits a grave > error (say, accidentally killing someone - that's > closer to what we're talking about here than "broken > dishes"), but refuses to aknowlege that anything he > did resulted in that death, refuses to rectify the > problem, and indeed alows it to continue resulting > in more deaths? Your still not listening to the arguements about von Hendricks. He has no reason to aknowlege anything is wrong, because it doesn't appear to be. He contrary to what you seem to think, has not witnessed these henous crimes. How does he know he is doing wrong? (and none of this "he must", "how could he not!" > >> Canon gives the results of his actions (or > inaction) without ascribing intent to them. It's > expected that you interpolate his intent with his > alignment: Lawful Neutral. << > > You're wrong about at least one thing in the above. > Two, really. I'm going to let you find out what. > > But I'm going to make a point about it, obliquely: > TSR has not been very good at applying their own > alignments. In a FR product, for example (Lands of > Intrigue), a certain character (Zaranda Star) is > described as being very, very concerned with > restoring order to a certain region (Tethyr), as > well as concerned with putting the needs of the > society first, in matters of consistant justice/law, > and other Lawful Good traits. She is then assigned > an alignment of Chaotic Good. Not knowing anything about this I would still assume she is thus a robin hood type character. Works outside the law to give law, etc. Whereas stefan is ruler, he can be lawful and work in the bounds of society to be good. > The actions, behavior, and motivations ascribed to > her are almost a perfect checklist of the Lawful > Good alignment, but then they assign her the > alignment "Chaotic Good". > Go figure. TSR thus have proven that your checklist method is not an acurate discribtion of alignment. > Again with the attempt to claim that "its only > Ludwig, his cousin" - again, wrong: Ludwig wasn't > the only such person, as the Gaz says "WORST among > them was Duke Stefan's own cousin, Baron Ludwig > 'Black Eagle' von Hendricks." That's not the full arguement. It's he has no proof against any of them and so cannot act. > Now, those of you who want to see Stefan as the font > of goodness can, in YOUR campaigns, pretend that > Ludwig was the sole blemish on an otherwise > unvarnished record of goodness and good apointments, > but you're (not me) the ones who are distorting the > "canon" when you do so, all the while claiming that > I am. Don't need to because canon always has indicated that stefan is lawful and fair handed. (not evil or chaotic). Nothing you have said yet changes my opinion of him. It only illistrates what life under his rule may be like in some places for traldarians. > >> It's likely he sent investigators and inquired > after his cousin from time-to-time about rare > allegations << > > Give an example of such an instance when Stefan sent > out investigators. Sure, people like Sasha of Luln > tried to tell Stefan what was going on in Halag, but > he refused to listen to her warnings or investigate > them. Because he probally didn't have enough evidence. > Again: refusing to see things when you don't want to > be bothered with the facts does not make one a good > ruler. Indeed, it's very clear that when Stefan > wanted to take decisive action (which was on those > occasions when it benifited him to do so), he could > and did. Those occasions that merely had to do with > the welfare of his subjects? Then all the sudden he > has this "blindness" weakness. . . saying he couldn't be "bothered with the facts" is a large assumption on your part when canon explicitly states he just "could not see it" The times of his benifital actions were when he had opitunities, not when he had no reason to act, which is the reasoning for his inaction. It's not like he gets to watch the news on T.V. and people get in big trouble for lieing. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:09:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Mystara�s Map Navigator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Ricardo Matheus wrote: > > > Hello everybody > > > > I added a new map to the Mystara�s Map Navigator. It despicts northern > > Ethengar and the Glantri/Wendar/Heldann border. > > > > Check it ou at: > > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/7983/ > >Whoops! We can't find your page! > >I found the ULR-page, but the navigator itself was gone! :( > >H�vard > I you shure you typed the correct adress? I clicked on the link on the body of the message and the site was there just fine. Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:28:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Mystara�s Map Navigator Again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There�s another new map in my site (yes, the second this week): http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/7983/ Check it out. Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:29:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Bengarian�s Hermitage (Wendar) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >H�vard wrote: > >>On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: >> >> >>>to serve as home for the sage Bensarian of Kevar. >> >> >>Interesting. I never noticed his last name. >>What is Kevar then? Probably his home town or village. Any ideas where it >>should be located? Heldann perhaps? > >The Kevar Hills are the hills in the region around the hermitage, IIRC. >There might be a village/town with that name too. The map in X11 isn't >especially accurate. >-- > > > Giampaolo Agosta As I was already suspecting that Bengarian had something to do with Bensarian and as the MA tells something about a small village named Kevar as the origin of Bensarian, I placed this village in one of the maps I just added to my site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/7983/n1e1.htm In fact I added three villages to an original map by Thibault Sarlat some time ago (both he and I posted messages about this then). Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:03:54 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > You are correct, when he was older and more mature, > > he betrayed Thyatis, > > which was a very smart decision. His country > > avoided fighting Alphatia, > > and got a magic school out of it. In the short > > term, it was very smart, long > > term remains to be seen. But breaking treaties when > > convenient isn't what > > is commonly known as "good" alignment. > > I don't think he betrayed thyatis, or broke a treaty. > When you read the treaty and tell me how he broke it, > I'll believe you. opps, that right, you can't because > it was never given in canon. Oh well. I don't think > Thyatis would have been on good terms with him after > the war had he broken their "treaty of eternal > frendship" > > Chris Yes it was given in canon. In the same email that you are quoting, I gave the page number(13), column number(3), and paragraph number(4) in GAZ1. Here is the quote, "signed decrees of eternal friendship and mutual defense in times of invasion" Now, Alphatia and Thyatis were at war. Stefan renounced all ties with Thyatis. So much for eternal friendship. When Thyatis was on the ropes and Alphatia was poised to invade, Stefan refused to help. So much for mutual defense in times of invasion. This is how Stefan betrayed Thyatis, and how he broke his treaty. And who said Thyatis is on good terms with Karameikos right now? Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Quest for butter Paul wrote: > Who's truth I wonder? The truth of those who lost it, or the truth of >those who will use it to bring about the inexplicable bounty of the >beginning of T time? I have the Grey Earls Flask, the Punnet of Swami >Bheerah (pronounced Bear) , the Sacred Butter, and all but one of the >mystical cruet, what power can now stand in my way? ;^) Why, nothing less than the awesome Christmas Pudding of St. Beano, which lies hidden in the depths of the frozen land guarded by the twin demons Marks and Spencer.... ;-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:50:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122142304.007d9bc0@lby3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:23 PM 11/22/00 -0800, you wrote: > I think it's worth noting that some people -- sometimes including myself >-- are inclined to give Stefan a break as the Traladaran partisans aren't >particularly attractive human beings. (Of course, Desmond Kelvin's no >saint, either.) I'm with you on this one. Assassinations- even just attempted ones- aren't exactly the sign of a benevolent personality/ies. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:03:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1C4539.D70B2716@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:14 AM 11/23/00 +0200, solmyr@kolumbus.fi wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: >> >> In its place, he gave his subjects the means to seek justice by skipping the >> bureaucracy and talking directly to the Duke. Not a bad deal, really. >> >We've seen how much that helps (see "Davinos' Complaint" in Gaz1). That's an unfair and inconclusive example. In the scenario you mention, Davinos gets his audience with the Duke, and the Duke "promises to consider the proposal" (that Traladaran homesteaders be compensated for damages done to them by Thyatians 30 years previous). Before he can render his verdict, Davinos is killed by the Veiled Society (a Traladaran faction), who hope to stir up trouble between the Thyatians and Traladarans. Presumably, the killers are brought to justice, but the scenario ends there, leaving the DM to fill in whether or not Stefan agrees to Davinos' demands or not. (Myself, I'm inclined to believe he does.) In any case, Davinos did at least get his chance to speak. Whether it had any good or not, we'll never know, since his own people deemed him a sacrificial lamb to the "cause". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:29:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Stefan: Recklessness = Evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >i guess you would say that print is in err, citing you examples >(handing out land to evil people, ignoring acts of wickedness >etc...) as evidence of that but I don't see those example as >evil unless it was done with evil intent which i don't belive they >were. I also believe that Stefan did not necessarily do many of the things attributed to him with straight out evil intent. There are certainly examples where he did (and these have already been canvassed at length). However, in effect he is evil - and the reason for this follows here: To use a legal analogy - you commit the crime of murder not only if you have the intent to commit that crime, but you are also guilty of murder (as opposed to manslaughter) if you engage in an activity with reckless indifference to whether you commit murder or not. I think Stefan really fits into this second category. He isn't necessarily issuing order for killing etc but he turns a blind eye (that is he is recklessly indifferent) to similar abuses by his vassals - which is in effect the same thing as issuing the orders himself. In my opinion at best Stefan is neutral but definitely leaning towards evil. >I say that intent is 100% of wether you are good/evil. You folks >seem to be saying "ok, his intent may have been good but he is hurting >loads of people though both his actions and his inactions and thus >must be evil or at best neutral". I agree that intent is the heart of the matter - but Stefan's intent is not good, his state of mind is instead reckless indifference. It would be good enough to convict him in a court of law. Adrian _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:41:05 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Now, Alphatia and Thyatis were at war. Stefan renounced >all ties with Thyatis. So much for eternal friendship. When >Thyatis was on the ropes and Alphatia was poised to invade, >Stefan refused to help. So much for mutual defense in times >of invasion. This is how Stefan betrayed Thyatis, and how he >broke his treaty. > >And who said Thyatis is on good terms with Karameikos right >now? > >Dave Keyser I agree with you here Dave. But one question that has been troubling me is, if Thyatis was so badly betrayed by Karameikos - why would they not just roll their vastly superior armies right through his country and retake the whole lot? If I was the Thyatian Emperor I would not tolerate such traitorous behaviour. If the Thyatians permit such disloyalty on this occassion, all Thyatian vassal states will be trying to get away with it. Eusebius must surely realise that leaving Karameikos be is a very bad idea. One reason that some might put forward is that Karameikos is a part of the WDL and that would put Thyatis off an invasion. Hardly. THe armies of the entire WDL put together couldn't beat THyatis - especially when you look at the geography and fighting tactics of the various nations. IF the Ylari attacked in force rather than skirmishing, they would be exterminated by the superior Thyatian armies, so they do not pose a serious threat to the northern border of Thyatis. The Hin do not have armed forces worth jack and Darokin could hardly commit large forces to Karameikos - it would leave their border with Sind relatively lightly defended and if Thyatians managed to gain control of the mountatin passes in the Cruth Mountain range - Darokin would be effectively unable to help anyway. So, why hasn't Thyatis invaded? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany I'm slow/limited in reply time now, what with the holiday preparations, but I'll take a stab at some short replies. >> I agree with you here Dave. But one question that has been troubling me is, if Thyatis was so badly betrayed by Karameikos - why would they not just roll their vastly superior armies right through his country and retake the whole lot? << The WDL protection-racket syndicate, along with the relatively weakened state of the Thyatian forces in the immediate post-WotI years (the engagements on the IoD as well tied up many forces). Now, to be sure, once Thyatis has recovered, nations like Ylaruam (using the WDL protection racket crime syndicate as a means of letting them raid with apparent impunity) and Karameikos may recieve just retribution, but, well, as they say "Revenge is a dish best served cold." Patience. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> comes from, but doesn't belong in. He *escaped* it. << Bringing all the bad behavior with him in the form of his followers, so that hardly indicates he "escaped" it. Sure, he escaped limits on his own authority, setting up a system where he held unrestricted power - probably because he thought he could handle it. Obviously, he couldn't, even if you think well of him. But the interpretation that he set things up this way precisely so that no one could prevent these goings on except him, and then he didn't do so for his own reasons, then. . . >> But thytais is only just Renaissance and when stefan left it may have still been medieval. << That's an unproven, and unprovable, assertion. > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... > Well, those who admire Stefan have sort of come to the conclusion that those are typos; the "out of it" person they claim him to be obviously does not have higher than average wisdom. I suppose it's possible that TSR is just so used to dealing with double digits that in the original detailing of Stefan's stats, an editor saw "3" and "5" and simply assumed that "13" and "15" must have been meant and so changed the stats, and since then that's just been copied. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:47:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan > that high level clerical aid was not available, the Patriarch of the > Traladaran Church is 11th level, which gives him access to 5th level > spells like Cure Critical Wounds and Raise Dead. >> This was not available in the /interior/. << Where's your evidence for that? >> Now there are two Patriarchs in the interior, due to Stefan's rule. << Where's is it said that Stefan's rule is responsible for it? After all, as Jen pointed out, Traladara's darkness had lightened considerably well before Stefan (or even the Thyatians in general) arrived, and had been continuing to do so. This claim that "Stefan is the font of civilization in the region" is belied by the reality and the facts. He simply isn't. Now, he claims *credit* in some instances (he did build roads), but he didn't make the Traladaran priesthood, and it's a stretch to claim he did. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan > > > You folks are saying Stefan is evil because> > Not evil, just not a good ruler. >> well if that was the issue I wouldn't be argueing. I accept he is not the best ruler and there could be better, but he is not terible ruler or iron fisted tyrant to me either. << > However, and I think this point has been lost in > this discussion, >> yes your issue has, because it is not the main issue << You need to check the early posts in this thread. Now, for a variety of reasons, it's been transmogrified into an "alignment discussion" thread, but that's not what it started out as. This alignment discussion is what isn't the main issue. If you're curious, check out the archives and please read (or re-read) the earlier posts on the Stefan topic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> Bad result does not equil bad person. << A repeating pattern is more indicative of true intent than anything else. As I've said all along, Stefan evidences a high degree of indifference (at best) on certain matters. That's a Neutral (at best) position. >> Your still not listening to the arguements about von Hendricks. << I'm listening, but those arguments are unconvincing and hollow. >> He has no reason to aknowlege anything is wrong, because it doesn't appear to be. << Sacha of Luln and others send reports of what's going on, people send information begging him to intervene, Ludwig engages in various nasty behavior that can hardly be hidden (changing the laws on a whim, murdering people in open court, etc). >> He contrary to what you seem to think, has not witnessed these henous crimes. << Your position seems to be that as long as he doesn't bother to check, that's ok and preserves him as a "good" person. My position is that he could glow with holy light like the Kingpriest of Ishtar, but that wouldn't make me think him good if his actions were at variance. Stefan doesn't bother himself to check. >> TSR thus have proven that your checklist method is not an acurate discribtion of alignment. << Wrong. Your "his alignment is what I say it to be even if his actual behavior is at variance with everything that alignment stands for" position is what is not an accurate description of alignment. >> That's not the full arguement. It's he has no proof against any of them and so cannot act. << He disqualifies anything presented to him, thus insuring he never has "proof". . .and even when he's kidnapped and forced to look, HE does not act: he still does nothing but watch, and it is others (the Hin) who must finally do what Stefan should have done thirty years ago. >> Don't need to because canon always has indicated that stefan is lawful and fair handed. (not evil or chaotic). << Incorrect. Have you read how he's shown to be behaving? "Canon" uses the language of "betrays" and "sells out" to describe Stefan's behavior. Now, you might ignore that in your campaign, that's fine - but its not canon. >> Nothing you have said yet changes my opinion of him. << What I've done is use examples from canon - something that, in your (empty) arguments, you have never done. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 01:08:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Then why does everyone else in Karameikos know that Ludwig is nasty? << Good point. Everyone in Karameikos knows about Ludwig, he's a nationally-recognized force for evil, the guard force garissoning Radlebb keeping an eye on Halag/Fort Doom is nicknamed "Hell's Jailers", Stefan's cousin names the place Fort Doom, all this is widely known to the point that in most campaigns set in Karameikos the characters, if they don't *START OUT* knowing that Ludwig is a evil villian, they learn it by their early levels. But Stefan's appologists claim there is "no evidence". Puh-leeze. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:29:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122195025.00808250@pop.wans.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:50 PM 11/22/00 -0800, you wrote: >At 02:23 PM 11/22/00 -0800, you wrote: > > I think it's worth noting that some people -- sometimes including >myself > >-- are inclined to give Stefan a break as the Traladaran partisans aren't > >particularly attractive human beings. (Of course, Desmond Kelvin's no > >saint, either.) > >I'm with you on this one. Assassinations- even just attempted ones- aren't >exactly the sign of a benevolent personality/ies. I'm not familiar with the reference you allude to. Is that from the Almanacs, or WotI? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:01:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:43 AM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> comes from, but doesn't belong in. He *escaped* it. << > >Bringing all the bad behavior with him in the form of his followers, so >that hardly indicates he "escaped" it. Sure, he escaped limits on his own >authority, setting up a system where he held unrestricted power - probably >because he thought he could handle it. Obviously, he couldn't, even if you >think well of him. Whatever. You seem determined to see Duke Stefan in the worst possible light and then attribute evil intentions to him. You make the idea of monarchy and feudal society in a fantasy realm seem damnable instead of formulaic. I tire of trying to convince you otherwise, because it's pointless. You don't want to see any alternate view. The view I espouse, I think, most closely meets the original intent of the campaign authors, and I intend to keep it. That's regardless of any spin you choose to put on it. >But the interpretation that he set things up this way precisely so that no >one could prevent these goings on except him, and then he didn't do so for >his own reasons, then. . . That's the thing. He didn't do so /not/ for "his own reasons" but for *lack* of reasons. I grow tired of saying it, but you seem to need reminding. > >> But thytais is only just Renaissance and when stefan left >it may have still been medieval. << > >That's an unproven, and unprovable, assertion. Also: who cares? > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... > > > >Well, those who admire Stefan have sort of come to the conclusion that >those are typos; the "out of it" person they claim him to be obviously >does not have higher than average wisdom. I disagree. I think it's quite possible for someone to be smart, wise, and still have a blindspot about the motivations and potential for betrayal by even the people closest to them. The high incidence of infidelity in North America is a simple example of how even smart and normally wise-in-the-world people can be blind or in denial. Another example (I can't remember who originally said it, sorry) is family of convicted serial killers. They all too frequently start out saying something like, "It couldn't have been him. He's not like that." -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:27:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:47 AM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > > that high level clerical aid was not available, the Patriarch of the > > Traladaran Church is 11th level, which gives him access to 5th level > > spells like Cure Critical Wounds and Raise Dead. > > >> This was not available in the /interior/. << > >Where's your evidence for that? There's this principle of burden of proof, and it goes like this: The burden of proof is upon the one making the less likely statement. (heck it out in any beginning philosophy book on critical thinking.) There are currently /only/ three patriarch-level clerics in the interior, and all of them are of the CoK (Baron Kelvin, Baron Threshold, and Aleena Halaran). There are none of the CoT. I contend on that basis that the burden of proof rests in proving there /were/ any patriarchs of the CoT in the interior before. I would say there weren't. > >> Now there are two Patriarchs in the interior, due to Stefan's rule. << > >Where's is it said that Stefan's rule is responsible for it? Those patriarchs (and one matriarch, btw) are /all/ of the Church of Karameikos. The CoK is there because of Stefan Karameikos. >After all, as Jen pointed out, Traladara's darkness had lightened >considerably well before Stefan (or even the Thyatians in general) >arrived, and had been continuing to do so. This claim that "Stefan is the >font of civilization in the region" is belied by the reality and the >facts. He simply isn't. He didn't bring the concepts of civilisation to the region. He brought the actual fact of civilisation to the wilderness (or, at least, parts of it). That is: in the form of forts, garrisons, etc. to help protect the interior communities from humanoid incursion. I'm not saying it was brilliant idea, or that he was the only one who might have thought of it. He's just the only one who actually did it. And, I think it is pointless to discuss whether the Traladarans would have done it on their own. Possibly. Probably, even. However, I would guess he made it happen /earlier/. The Thyatians weren't that interested, really, and the Traladarans themselves were not united in the cause. Regardless of that, the fact that Stefan did these things are signs of good rule. Good management, if you prefer. >Now, he claims *credit* in some instances (he did build roads), but he >didn't make the Traladaran priesthood, and it's a stretch to claim he did. I didn't make such a claim. I wasn't talking about the Traladaran priesthood at all. What Stefan /did/ bring was another religion with a patriarch (who is in the capital) and other vassals of that clerical power to the interior where there were previously none. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy R. Haney wrote: > At 11/22/00 05:16 PM, you wrote: > >> Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is definitely not Middle Age >> (at least not in the Western European way). Also, beyond Darokin and >> Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. > > > No, I'd call it pre-Middle Age. I don't guess this really helps with the > topic but we have Thyatis, Karameikos, and Darokin. If you place them on a > timeline, you have Byzantine, Middle Ages, and Renaissance. So even > considering what's around Karameikos, I think it still comes up a Middle > Age kingdom. Now, now, do you really think that Byzantine+Renaissance=Middle Age!!! Both Thyatis and Darokin are technologically, socially and politically far more progressed than Middle Age (especially High), so the result cannot be that bad. Also, remember that we are talking about Stefan, who is a Thyatian. The fact that he moved in a less advanced region does not justify him as being a naive middle-age king (even if such thing was historically justifiable). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:03:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't think it > said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule stopped, but > it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. Actually, the fact that the Traladarans are clearly ready to rebel (during the Davinos adventure, or in the Magda adv. hook), shows that this discontent never stopped. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:54:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:08 AM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> Then why does everyone else in Karameikos know that Ludwig is nasty? << > >Good point. >Everyone in Karameikos knows about Ludwig, he's a nationally-recognized >force for evil, the guard force garissoning Radlebb keeping an eye on >Halag/Fort Doom is nicknamed "Hell's Jailers", Stefan's cousin names the >place Fort Doom, all this is widely known to the point that in most >campaigns set in Karameikos the characters, if they don't *START OUT* >knowing that Ludwig is a evil villian, they learn it by their early levels. > >But Stefan's appologists claim there is "no evidence". Puh-leeze. Well, show in canon that Stefan /does/ know it, then. Show that Stefan /did/ have evidence. You say you don't buy it, and if that's the case you must say he's evil. I, on the other hand, say he does /not/ know it and that it is perfectly reasonable to accept that. Your point about most campaigns actually shows the difference between player and character knowledge, not that Stefan should know what's going on in Black Eagle. In my campaign, /none/ of the characters know the Baron Von Hendricks is evil. However, /all/ of the players know, from past campaigns, from DMing themselves, etc., etc. The nickname "Hell's Jailers" does not /need/ to be about evil doings in Black Eagle. The idea of being a force to contain evil is pretty cool, regardless of where you are. A bunch of demon-ass kickers. It would appeal to the good, common soldier. Again, you are too willing to ascribe evil intent or knowledge upon Karameikos, and it is not borne out in canon. And, for the record, I don't think my stance makes me an apologist for Karameikos; it makes me a purist to the original intent of the campaign authors. No, Stefan isn't perfect, and I like it that way. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:12:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:58 AM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> Bad result does not equil bad person. << > >A repeating pattern is more indicative of true intent than anything else. >As I've said all along, Stefan evidences a high degree of indifference (at >best) on certain matters. That's a Neutral (at best) position. I disagree he shows indifference. That's a statement you need to support. What he is, is trusting of his cousin. [snip] > >> He has no reason to aknowlege anything is wrong, because it doesn't > appear to be. << > >Sacha of Luln and others send reports of what's going on, people send >information begging him to intervene, Ludwig engages in various nasty >behavior that can hardly be hidden (changing the laws on a whim, murdering >people in open court, etc). Well, you say there are things Ludwig does that cannot be hidden, and obviously canon disagrees with you. And so do I. I've said in past posts that it's reasonable that Ludwig manages to cover up or keep things at arm's length and deniable long enough that Stefan finally just stops taking it that seriously, and relies on his garrison at Fort Radlebb to tell him if there is anything fishy. Anyway, I always believed that Von Hendricks was supposed to be caught by the PCs eventually, and that Duke Stefan would then have him killed for treason. It certainly seems to be set up that way ... . > >> He contrary to what you seem to think, has not witnessed these henous > crimes. << > >Your position seems to be that as long as he doesn't bother to check, >that's ok and preserves him as a "good" person. My position is that he >could glow with holy light like the Kingpriest of Ishtar, but that >wouldn't make me think him good if his actions were at variance. Stefan >doesn't bother himself to check. Who's to say that he didn't check, but simply didn't find anything? [snip] > >> That's not the full arguement. It's he has no proof against any of > them and so cannot act. << > >He disqualifies anything presented to him, thus insuring he never has >"proof". . .and even when he's kidnapped and forced to look, HE does not >act: he still does nothing but watch, and it is others (the Hin) who must >finally do what Stefan should have done thirty years ago. I'm admittedly not familiar with whatever source you are alluding to. Enlighten me? > >> Don't need to because canon always has indicated that >stefan is lawful and fair handed. (not evil or >chaotic). << > >Incorrect. Have you read how he's shown to be behaving? >"Canon" uses the language of "betrays" and "sells out" to describe >Stefan's behavior. Now, you might ignore that in your campaign, that's >fine - but its not canon. Obviously, I do not have these sources. Sounds like they changed Stefan significantly. I hate that. Still ... is this the "sell out" of Thyatis at the end of the WotI you keep harping on? I gave WotI to my wife and have tried to stay ignorant, with the idea the campaign will be more fun as a player if I don't know how things are supposed to work. But, when I asked if her (regarding this thread) if Karameikos sells out / betrays Thyatis in the end, she didn't seem to think so. Hmm... -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:21:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan: Recklessness = Evil In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:29 PM 11/22/00 -0800, you wrote: >>i guess you would say that print is in err, citing you examples >>(handing out land to evil people, ignoring acts of wickedness >>etc...) as evidence of that but I don't see those example as >>evil unless it was done with evil intent which i don't belive they >>were. > >I also believe that Stefan did not necessarily do many of the things >attributed to him with straight out evil intent. There are certainly >examples where he did (and these have already been canvassed at length). >However, in effect he is evil - and the reason for this follows here: To >use a legal analogy - you commit the crime of murder not only if you have >the intent to commit that crime, but you are also guilty of murder (as >opposed to manslaughter) if you engage in an activity with reckless >indifference to whether you commit murder or not. I think Stefan really >fits into this second category. He isn't necessarily issuing order for >killing etc but he turns a blind eye (that is he is recklessly indifferent) >to similar abuses by his vassals - which is in effect the same thing as >issuing the orders himself. In my opinion at best Stefan is neutral but >definitely leaning towards evil. Well, your whole argument hinges on the accusation of reckless indifference, and I disagree that he was. It happens that the only baron of his that does not rule well and fairly is his cousin, and he didn't have a reason to suspect him. Play it however you like, but I like to keep to the original intent of the campaign authors, and he didn't seem reckless or indifferent to me. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:35:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1CDD7E.6020609@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:03 AM 11/23/00 +0100, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > > >>I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't think it >>said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule >>stopped, but >>it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. > >Actually, the fact that the Traladarans are clearly ready to rebel >(during the Davinos adventure, or in the Magda adv. hook), shows that >this discontent never stopped. That was not real discontent with Stefan's rule, but was incitements by the Veiled Society, et al. The heroes show the truth of the matter in the adventure and *poof* no more discontent. BTW: Riots can be started by professionals or malcontents without there being any real majority dislike of the government. It even happens in the U.S. from time to time. =;) -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:42:53 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Quest for butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Paul wrote: > > > Who's truth I wonder? The truth of those who lost it, or the truth of > >those who will use it to bring about the inexplicable bounty of the > >beginning of T time? I have the Grey Earls Flask, the Punnet of Swami > >Bheerah (pronounced Bear) , the Sacred Butter, and all but one of the > >mystical cruet, what power can now stand in my way? ;^) > > Why, nothing less than the awesome Christmas Pudding of St. Beano, which > lies hidden in the depths of the frozen land guarded by the twin demons > Marks and Spencer.... ;-) > Isn't it just dandy that the misinformation of it being St. Beano's Pudding that will stand in my way has already passed into common folklore. The quest for the, "Salt of the Earth", is already underway (now where did I put that memo?). BTW as anyone with any real planar knowledge knows Marks and Spencer are servitor archons in the service of Saimpt Miguel. St. Beano's property is protected by the much more powerful Hawk, and Spenser. (Damn this having to gloat if one is an Evil Overlord) ;^) Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:47:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > Quoting Agathokles : > > >> Wizards Shopper wrote: >> >>> Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against >>> humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. >> >> IYO, you should add. > > > So, these are /not/ good things? I don't think this is /just/ IMO. It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will you say? >> I don't think anyone asked Stefan to set up a >> stable government, a military, etc. >> The Traladarans had fared well for centuries without him, and would have >> continued that way for many other, if it was their choice. > > > Well, that's arguable and that's where we enter the grey areas. However, > Traladarans /are/ participants in the country, not just some victims, as of > 1000 A.C. Also, the country at large prospers more for the infrastructure that > he put in place. If more prosperity in general is not what you consider good, > oh well. However, it is clear that Stefan and many others on Mystara consider > it good. It is clear that the Traladarans didn't invite Stefan. It is not a grey area. What may have happened to them without him, it is not Stefan's businness. > Perhaps you would argue that the Traladarans would eventually have improved > themselves in the absence of interference, but the fact is the Traladarans > would never have been left alone to choose their destiny anyway. As a part of > the Empire, they were relegated to hicks and the territory was considered a > potential threat, because it was a frontier full of dangerous humanoids without > any organised local way of dealing with them. Actually, the local nobles seem to have dealt without problems with the humanoids (BTW, judging from B10, there aren't that many humanoid around) for centuries. Fiefs like Marilenev and Dmitrov existed far before Karameikos. > >>> This did not >>> happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the gnomes, >> >> and >> >> Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the Hin >> too. > > > Sheesh. This is obviously a misrepresentation of my position. Sorry, but is what you said, literally > I was pointing out that Stefan didn't generally go around slaughtering and was > using still /other/ examples than the Traladarans. I was also pointing out > that Traladarans were not the only ones who benefited from Stefan being Duke. > All of these things are indications of being a good ruler. And I used the Hin, because you mentioned examples *outside* Karameikos: whatever Stefan may believe, no part of the population of Karameikos is composed by elves or gnomes, which have their own kingdoms (they don't pay taxes, and have their legal systems). >> I mean, if >> someone steals some money from your neighbour, the fact that he's >> willing to share the loot with you does not make him less of a thief (at >> most, it may show that you aren't a good neighbour, in the end). > > > Well, that's not the way I see it as happening. Stefan didn't steal from the > Traladarans and give to the Elves, and Gnomes. He started /managing/ the > country and the change of management was resented at first, but the results 30 > years later (outside of Black Eagle) are good. How is he paying his elven mercenaries? > The benefits to the elves and gnomes were safer trade routes, guaranteed non- > interference, normalised and formalised relations, etc., etc. Actually, the gnomes have little interest in formalised relations, and their caravans are still under the threat of bandits (read the first few adv. hooks!). As for the elves, Stefan pays them. >>> It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major >> >> (and good!) religions in the region support his rule. >> >> Actually, the Patriarch of the Traladaran Church is hostile to Stefan. >> The Gaz says that it is because he is friend with Jowett that he has >> decided to try assimilating the Thyatians instead of trying to chase >> them (and, I may add, because the revolts have already failed). > > > Jowett is the Patriarch of the CoK, right? So, how did they become friends? > Also, Stefan and Jowett are friends, too, correct? Friendship doesn't always benefit of the transitive property, you know? The two Patriarchs are personal friends, but that doesn't imply that they aren't trying to convert each the other's followers, for example. (read the gaz, it is exactly what Aleksyev is trying to do; also, it says that Aleksyev is hostile to Stefan, just check it). > Anyway, a point I made in another post stands: If Stefan were an evil or unfit > ruler, both Patriarchs would have a moral imperative to act against him. They > don't. Aleksyev is acting against Stefan. Just he is trying the legal way, because he think he has no other solution. As to the CoK, see the LN thing. >> As to the religions being good, I must say that only the Church of >> Traladara is basically good. The Church of Karameikos is Lawful >> (Neutral, with individuals free to range from Evil to Good), and the >> Cult of Halav is definitely Chaotic Neutral. > > > I had always taken the Churches to be "good." I don't want to get into a big > disagreement about it, but I don't have any material that says otherwise. Alfric Oderbry is definitely evil, and he as a large following in the CoK. This definitely proves that part of that Church isn't good. As a result, the CoK is LN, on average. Also, read their precepts, and tell me they're good! >>>>> (and is a different topic). the fact that he belives he is >>>>> causing more good makes him good. >>>> >> I don't follow you, really... you are arguing that a madman who believes >> that helps them >> *is* good, just because he believes it? >> I think Solmyr's reasoning applies perfectly here: you are willing to >> justify anyone on the basis of his own belief (which is wrong, IMO), but >> then you are (correctly, IMNSHO) refusing to apply this definition to >> Solmyr's examples, just because they are more extreme than Stefan. >> This brings to contradiction, which, if you like, proves that your >> statemant above here doesn't stand. > > > Actually, I didn't make the original statement. I jumped into the thread after > that. However, I believe the original intent of the statement was to say that > someone who is sane and trying to do good, and thinks he /is/ doing good, > should be considered a good person. Sorry! I confused you with someone else, but I cannot find the original statement. > In contrast, you represent his position as: a person who believes evil is good > is a good person. That's incorrect. Because of this, Solmyr's reasoning does > not apply. > > I think the point we disagree on, really, is whether Stefan was aware of what > was going on. I don't think he was, and canon seems to agree. If he /was/ > aware and did nothing, that would make him evil - or incompetent. That seems > to be the argument. I'm just trying to distill it. Not really, I argue that Stefan's supporters are willing to accept a large number of "I find it not that hard to believe" things in order to support a single point: that Stefan is lawful and good. To me, that is turning a blind eye over all of Stefan (in)actions. Also, people aren't judged on intentions, but on actions. If your actions are consistently not lawful, well, you just aren't lawful. And the same for goodness. My points are essentially that: a) Stefan establishes a form of government which is largely based on a person, instead of a code of law (ex.: his decisions aren't good examples of juridical expertise, he use direct judgement often, he sees the open court as an important tool, etc). This shows he is not so Lawful (though many people will just tell me: "This doesn't prove he is not good", confusing the two points). Also, his actions in the WotI against Thyatis may be the result of a non-Lawful behaviour (though they may as well come from an Evil character). b) Stefan is not that good, as he essentially doesn't care for the Machetos people, doesn't care about the Traladarans, which his followers mistreat. He doesn't remove Ludwig, which cannot be explained without recurring to long-winded complots to leave Stefan in the dark of what's happening within his own kingdom. c) Stefan's description in Gaz1 is flawed, because his alignment, intelligence and wisdom are not coherent with his actions. >> Actually, Karameikos is *based* on ethnic oppositions: Stefan plays one >> group against the other (he uses the Traladarans to guard the Thyatian >> border, and the worst Thyatian to guard the Hin border). > > Again, this is ascribing specific intents where I don't think it's necessary. > You can imagine it that way in your campaign, but it is /not/ necessary. Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. > Stefan put important nobles (that he thinks are loyal!) where he thought they > could do the most good. He put his cousin on the border to the Malpheggi > Swamp, which is peopled by lizardmen and monsters, and where there happens to > be alot of piracy (Hin, Ierendian, etc., etc.). Actually, the only pirates mentioned by Gaz1 are those based in the BE Barony itself... > Threshold is out on the > mountainous borders where there are large numbers of orcs. Kelvin helps guard > against the goblins of the Dymrak. Uhm, four to six characters of levels 3-4 are more than a match for those goblins. > I don't recall if it says the Rugalov Keep is mainly Traladarans or not, but I > don't think it's worth arguing about. It hardly matters. It does, in the Gaz. And it matters, as it shows that Stefan is more than willing to use ethnic oppositions to strenghten his power. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:20:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mystara=B4s?= Map Navigator In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Ricardo Matheus wrote: > I you shure you typed the correct adress? I clicked on the link on the body > of the message and the site was there just fine. Pretty sure, but it seems to be working just fine now :) As usual, good work. I especially liked that you'd added the village Kevar. Will you be changing the Bengarian Hermitage to Bensarian Hermitage? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:52:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: >> I mean that selling Traladara is different from >> selling the title of >> Duke of Traladara, which would have been the "usual" >> Thyatian deal. > > do elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The > land belongs to thyatis, so it can be sold. Stefan was > a duke, and couldn't be made a duke again, cause it > wouldn't change anything. I didn't mean selling it to Stefan! I mean Thincol could have just sold a number of titles without giving indipendence to anyone. > Land comes with an > established dukedom, but to establish a new dukedom > you need new land. Thats what I get. Indipendence is the extra! You don't get land as property, but as a fief, in a standard vassalage agreement. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:56:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: >> The difference is that while any political/juridical system is easily >> disrupted by the presence of unjust individuals, Stefan's (as well as >> any autocratic) system is flawed in its own concept (That is, the Duke >> needs not abuse/bend the law to sentence someone). > > Okay, but my point was that having this authority does not make Duke Stefan > evil, nor a bad ruler. Establishing it makes him less than Lawful. > Perhaps it's a flawed idea, but until it fails in > practice, he and his successors, and his subjects, will find no reason to find > fault with the idea. With a good ruler that respects the concept of noblesse > oblige (as I believe Stefan does, although I know there are some that > disagree), it provides a very good way of ensuring there is accountability > among the other arms of the government. I suppose I haven't been clear: this idea may actually come from a Chaotic Good ruler. It does not tell anything about how good the ruler is, but about how lawful. Lawful people believe in Law as the (or at least one of the sources) source of good government. See my other answer on this point. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:58:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > >> How were things shown to be better? When did the >> complaining stop? > > When did it continue to? I would assume that it's lack > of mention to my knowledge(excluding the Black eagle) > and it's playing down indicate that things are better. > (But I'm sure someone will be able to tell me that I'm > wrong, but to me the arguement needs both sides to be complete.) Look the adventure hooks. The Traladarans are ready to revolt at the slightest provocation (Davinos's death, or Magda's speech) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:14:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Okay, so you're saying that Stefan had reason to suspect or worry that his > cousin might try something. Perhaps. However, that is specifically listed as > his character flaw. I also say it's not that unreasonable. The Black Eagle > barony ought to be a handful, given potential incursions from the swamp, > piracy, etc., so it might be reasonable to say that someone might expect him to > be too busy to hatch a scheme to take the throne - even if Stefan didn't have > his problem of trusting his cousin too much. Well, so the poor cousin was too busy to scheme against Stefan. And good Stefan send two divisions to help him fight the many dangers of the region, so that he can scheme at least a bit. :P >> Even in the Robin Hood story, John if defeated only when (and as soon >> as!) the Lionheart comes back, IIRC. The difference I see is that the >> Lionheart strongly acts to preserve his power, and coincidentially to >> help the people, while Stefan's inaction strenghtens the Black Eagle and >> cause the people to be oppressed. > > King Richard's inaction (while on the crusades) strengthened Prince John and > caused the people to be repressed. King Richard inaction was forced (he was definitely out of touch)! > If Stefan had the facts, he would act decisively. He wouldn't need to > attribute treasonous actions with "evil" but merely corruption, which is a > concept he would be familiar with from Thyatis. No, he would not, at most he may let the Hin do so. (And notice that he has no choice even then, because the Hin army is definitely stronger than his own). > Fair point. I don't remember reading about any in-fighting amongst the nobles, > but I guess that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It could still be that > Karameikos never personally experienced it. It could, but it's still far fetched, like most of the assumptions made by Stefan's supporters. > True, but Stefan has also had many more things to draw away his attention from > his cousin. But he also as more advisors them him. >> Well, it's more his original use that puzzles me: I mean, there was >> little population in the area (Luln was formed by Black Eagle Barony >> refugees later), there was little hope to colonize the Callarii lands, >> and there was the Riverfork garrison (and good cousin Ludwig!) so near. >> Also, Kelvin was already being built near the Callarii lands, and was >> surely more apt to host friendly meetings. > > All good points. Then, what /would/ be a good reason to originally put the > fort there? Perhaps Stefan did it to help "back up" his cousin when he kept > getting reports of unrest? =;) Can anyone else give an explanation? The explanation may vary, depending on which Stefan you are considering: a) Evil Stefan: Stefan knows everything, and his using his cousin to keep the Traladarans from considering him too bad. Therefore, he needs a stalemate for as long as possible, and has the Tower built. b) Idiot Stefan: Stefan knows nothing, but his advisors, either corrupted by Yolanda of Luln or manipulated by Olivia, build it telling him that the western radlebb is inhabited by bandits, instead of elves. c) Good Stefan: Stefan is good and competent, but everyone plot to keep him in the dark. The Tower already exists, being the siege of a minor Traladaran noble. A captain of Stefan's army kills the noble, and fakes the documents, stating that he bought the Tower. At some point, the ruse is revealed, but the noble descendents are all dead, or unable to claim their heirloom, and Stefan nationalizes the Tower. Your choice! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > Quoting Agathokles : > > >> Wizards Shopper wrote: >> >>>> They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. >>> >>> That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could >>> they steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without >>> the force of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their >>> property back. Perhaps that is what you are suggesting happened? >> >> Stefan's armies supported them. If the Traladarans were able to oust >> him, they would have succedeed in their first revolts. > > I believe the principle revolt was in Specularum when he declared himself > ruler. That's how I read it, anyway. > > I still say this point is dodgy in canon, because there isn't enough detail. > There are obviously still Traladaran land owners. There are still Traladaran > nobles. Also, I remember reading that these "ruthless" men were not in the > majority, either. Well, Specularum is the heart of Karameikos: it holds 1/3 of the population, IIRC. Traladaran nobles remaining? Sulescu, because it was far, and hard to dislodge. Dromilov, because was pacific and didn't try to oppose Stefan. No other Traladaran ruler (from that time, Rugalov wasn't a fief) that I can remember of. Anyway, this doesn't change the point: Thyatians often used fake documents to illegally take the Traladaran's lands. > It doesn't mean it didn't happen, either. Anyway, we are both arguing from a > lack of evidence. Given that, it could be argued either way. Sure, in the absence of evidence, I try to chose the less far fetched option. > In any event, I do remember the Gaz saying something along the lines that the > people respect Stefan, if not necessarily Thyatians in general. Yet, they are ready to rebel... >>> The organised military presence in the interior that protects the >>> settlements and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. It doesn't: read the adventure hooks, or B10 and 11 >> There isn't any proof that Stefan's army is more effective than the >> Thyatian Legions. > > Perhaps they're not more effective on a per man basis, but that's not the > point. There are more forts and more troops because of Stefan, giving better > overall security to the region and the interior Traladaran population. IIRC, > Thyatis interests in the area were principally around the capital, and coverage > was likely light elsewhere. They are also less numerous. Thyatian squadrons were sent everywhere, including Sulescu (and there, they found that some natives are better left alone!). > No, but he did bring the CoK. Two or three more Patriarchs makes a > difference. Two of them are in the interior, where such aid did not previously > exist. There is no proof that there weren't CoT patriarchs before. Many priests of the CoT got killed in the rebellion. Also, clerical help isn't available for the general population, only for a few people (there is no mention of resurrection services catered by the CoK) >>> There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was >>> established where there was none. Etc., etc. >> >> For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the >> Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for >> example) > > Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's founder, and > even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. IIRC, they are at the same level (15). > BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. Zemiros Sulescu, Nosferatu Wizard, level 9... what else do I have to look at? > But, it is the opinion of many Karameikans ... even many of strictly Traladaran > descent. Still the minority. Also, collaborationists may be common, but this doesn't change the matter > I'm not saying that there aren't escapees. I'm saying there's never > any /proof/ of wrongdoing that can be attributed to his cousin that ever leaves > the barony. what would you consider "proof"? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:35:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > >> The actions, behavior, and motivations ascribed to >> her are almost a perfect checklist of the Lawful >> Good alignment, but then they assign her the >> alignment "Chaotic Good". >> Go figure. > > TSR thus have proven that your checklist method is not > an acurate discribtion of alignment. Silly reasoning! So what is an accurate description of alignments? TSR's decision? Sorry, but you are forgetting that TSR really does a mess with alignments quite often: f.e., the Shadow Elves are listed as either C or L, depending on the point of view of the product! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:50:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Actually, the fact that the Traladarans are clearly ready to rebel >> (during the Davinos adventure, or in the Magda adv. hook), shows that >> this discontent never stopped. > > That was not real discontent with Stefan's rule, but was incitements by the > Veiled Society, et al. The heroes show the truth of the matter in the > adventure and *poof* no more discontent. > > BTW: Riots can be started by professionals or malcontents without there > being any real majority dislike of the government. It even happens in the > U.S. from time to time. =;) Depends on what you would mean by "real majority dislike". Personally, I don't think that a perfectly satisfied population will set an uprising just because some "malcontents" are starting it. Incitement is just a way of sparking a revolt, then you need something to fuel it. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 03:12:05 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Mystaran Almanac in pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Okay, well that's done, all three of them (1014, 1015, 1016) are now available at the usual place (http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/) in PDF. For some reason I have trouble accessing the 1016 file, but it ain't my fault. Shawn if you want a copy for the official Mystara site and can't access the online version, ask me. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:05:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > > > established where there was none. Etc., etc. > > > > For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the > > Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for > > example) >=20 > Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's = founder, and > even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. Wrong. According to Gaz1 (which I would take to be the source for = AC1000), Teldon (founder and head of the Magician's Guild) is a 15th = level Magic-user (p.52). Bargle the Infamous is also a 15th level = Magic-user (p.59). Level-wise they are equal, and you can't outright say = which is the more powerful. Also note that in Teldon's description it = says: "...Teldon came to Karameikos [...] 30 years ago [...] he was then = the greatest authority on magic...". So this doesn't tell us who the = highest level wizard in Karameikos is, as of AC1000. > BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. So, Zemiros Sulescu, ruler of Sulescu, a Nosferatu with the powers of a = 9th level Magic-user (p.39), is/was not a Traladaran wizard? Since the = description of the Nosferatu (p.60) specifically states that the = Nosferatu keeps it's original character class and level, obviously = Zemiros was originally a 9th level Magic-user. Sulescu has been ruled by = a Traladaran wizard for the past 300 years, apparently. You really should refrain from making claims like these, if you haven't = bothered to check the source material, you know... It puts your = statements in a very bad light. "If he was just making this up, what = else did he just make up?" Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:28:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf In-Reply-To: <20001123111205.20768.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Herve Musseau wrote: > Okay, well that's done, all three of them (1014, 1015, 1016) are now available > at the usual place (http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/) in PDF. For some reason > I have trouble accessing the 1016 file, but it ain't my fault. > Shawn if you want a copy for the official Mystara site and can't access the > online version, ask me. I couldnt access MA1016 either. I had no trouble with the other two, so something must be wrong, right? Let us know when youve fixed it! Speaking of pdf, I would love to see the Savage Coast Monsterous Compendium with pics in pdf format.. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dylan Gault Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122142304.007d9bc0@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Beau wrote: > IMC, I've got a group of all Traladarans, and the ethnic conflict will be > a background (but repeat) element, but one of the things I'm going to make > clear is that no side is particularly attractive or nice. > This is the same tack that is a part of my campaign. One PC is a paladin of the church of Traladara. The real catch is that the PC is also the son of a Thyatian born noble with a title and land in Karameikos. The player came up with the idea of being a Thyatian who turned to the religion of the oppressed people, I added the noble part to give the concept some gas. He will be faced with some hard choices in the future when the Traladaran side is not always right. The paladin is very suspicious of the state church, and I have given him mixed messages regarding the position of other Traladaran church members. The paladin has been quite open about his dislike of the state church in front of fellow church members. In return, some advocate tolerance, others seem to be slyly joining the paladin in his open distrust. He has already felt the heat of tension between the two peoples. In Kelvin, the traladaran establishment wouldn't serve him or the party because he looked so Thyatian, and the Thyatian establishment overcharged them. I think that the player missed what was really going on, but it will come around again. Dylan G ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> You say you don't buy it, and if that's the case you must say he's evil. I, on the other hand, say he does /not/ know it and that it is perfectly reasonable to accept that. << Everyone in Karameikos knows it, including Stefan's own soldiers, but somehow Stefan doesn't? Some people are willing to stretch things to the point of absurdity to protect their sacred cows, but that doesn't deny me my ability to use good judgement. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:01:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. << Sycophancy explains it all. When it comes to Stefan, they just cast asside their own judgement and spew the party line; dismissing things found in canon as if they were not there, and then claiming that those arguing the other side are making things up (this is also called "projection", since as we see it is their arguments and explainations which are usually made up "well it could have been thus and such" types of things, rarely if ever referencing actual canon examples, but then claiming it us us who have not, even though we're the ones who *have* done so, and they say "well, canon doesn't describe things like what you say" to examples taken directly from it). Their positions have gotten so absurd it's hardly worth replying to most of them anymore, and it's usually more an imbittering experience than an enlightening one to do so anymore, so deep are we into propaganda-land when it comes to their posts at this point. Truly, the Hosadus/Hule/Bozdogan comparison with Stefan/Kar! ! ameikos is certainly the most apt. >> Uhm, four to six characters of levels 3-4 are more than a match for those goblins. << Those goblins are *WAY* too much for Our Hero King Stefan, however. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:01:43 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2000 8:00:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Some people are willing to stretch things to the point of absurdity to protect their sacred cows, but that doesn't deny me my ability to use good judgement. >> Nore does it make other peoples judjments lesser then your own. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:56:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:47 11/23/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >Some people are willing to stretch things to the point of absurdity to protect their sacred cows, but that doesn't deny me my ability to use good judgement. Well, the good news is that no one's getting personal over any of this, and we all realize it's just a game. An out of print, marginal game at that. OK, I'm off to the in-laws for several days for Thanksgiving. I'll weigh half again as much next time you hear from me. (And I'll likely have a head full of Star Wars D20, too.) See ya. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:41:54 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If he is as bad as people say he is and that he dosent act as a LG aligned NPC should and if it's demanstreated then the real fault is with TSR for not geting the setting right. If K;KoA is that bad then it's TSR's fault and thats the diredction that this should go for it's them that wrote the "cannon" and screwed up on how thay portryed Stafan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:43:38 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf In-Reply-To: <20001123133104.0A2068277@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Speaking of pdf, I would love to see the Savage Coast Monsterous > Compendium with pics in pdf format.. Done. You can find it at http://images.starflung.com/img/dnd/sc_monst.pdf Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:33:47 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > They were minor landowners, not counted among landed nobility. > > That doesn't make any sense. Without being landed nobility, how could they > steal property /and keep it/? Thyatians were outnumbered, so without the force > of arms a noble would have, Traladarans would just take their property back. > Because they were legitimized by Stefan and had his backing. After all, any Traladaran who would dare to rise up against a new Thyatian landowner would quickly find himself thrown in jail or executed (Stefan had plenty of experience doing that). > The organised military presence in the interior that protects the settlements > and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. Roads are better. Trade > has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a result of the > preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where it was not > previously. There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > established where there was none. Etc., etc. > Do you suggest that humanoids regularly kicked Traladarans' arses before then? Doesn't sound like that to me, considering the Song of Halav. So that discounts military presence. Better roads and trade is not necessarily good in itself. It's not indicated anywhere that Traladarans needed those things - they existed perfectly well before them. High level clerical aid: Church of Traladara. And yes, there are cities now where there were ancient holy sites. And there were definitely cities before. > The country /is/ better off. > The country as Stefan envisions it. > > Then why does everyone else in Karameikos know that Ludwig is nasty? > > They don't. Players and DMs know, but the fantasy population of Karameikos at > large does not know. > I'd say that pretty much everyone in western Karameikos (particularly Luln) knows. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:56:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Uh ... sure. Look, I did not bring up Hitler, you did. (Anyone who doubts > that can look back at the archives.) If you were /not/ trying to draw a > parallel between Hitler and Stefan, why did you bring him up? > > If you /are/ trying to draw a parallel, I am showing that it is clearly wrong > to do so. > I am not trying to draw a parallel. I am merely saying that all the things that in your mind make Stefan "good" can be (and have been) done by extremely evil men as well. > Good heavens! You are really a piece of work. You clearly /are/ trying to > draw a parallel to Hitler! > See above. > You are obviously unwilling to see that the Traladarans benefited at all. I've > given examples of how they have, above, but that may not be enough. If you do > not want to be convinced it is impossible to do so, but I think there is enough > in canon to support me. > I think there is enough in canon to support my argument that Traladarans have suffered. > > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". > > Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right now. Let's > say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine > Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil or unfit. > He doesn't openly. Nothing is said about what he does secretly, or what he silently accepts and encourages. > > He wishes to see the return of Traladara's Golden Age, but no mention is > > made of Stefan. Indeed, he considers members of the Cult of Halav (who > > preach that Stefan will bring about the Golden Age) quite mad. > > That's fine. Stefan thinks they're mad, too. > Does he? As far as I know his opinions on the CoH are never made clear in any sources. > > Plus, his > > parents were killed in the Marilenev rebellion. All this seems to > > indicate that the Patriarch is resigned to having Stefan in charge, > > having no other choice. > > A Patriarch always has a choice. Being that powerful, they have only to > support someone else. > There is nobody else. Even if there was, by supporting him the Patriarch would see his church outlawed and many Traladarans killed. So he has no choice - he is in effect a hostage of the situation. > Hello? What happened after the Serb minority was no longer oppressed? Did > Milosevic choose peace? > No, and I never said he did. All I'm saying that initially he had good intentions, just like Stefan. > Look, why don't you quit with the attempts at IRL parallels; you're digging > yourself into an indefensible position. > I know that you'd like me to shut up because my comparisons hurt the image of your idol, but I'm not going to. What applies to one person also applies to another. > That's a good question; although I'm sure you meant it rhetorically, it comes > out quite ironic. No-one suffers directly under Stefan's rule, and his chief > vassals (Barons Kelvin and Threshold) are also good rulers. The sole exception > is the Black Baron. > So now you consider an ambitious, scheming man who has no regard for anyone else's wellbeing, least of all Traladarans', a "good ruler"? > Moreover, there /are/ still some Traladaran nobles. Some people seem to forget > that. > None of them are in any significant positions of power - more like on the fringes. > > I would also compare Stefan to the Kingpriest of Istar. Good intentions, > > but poor execution which ultimately leads to downfall. > > Is this from DragonLance? I'm not familiar with the setting, so I can't > comment on this allusion, but I suspect I would disagree again. > Yes, it is from Dragonlance, and I'm not terribly familiar with the setting myself. The Kingpriest of Istar was a Lawful Good cleric who was convinced that his religion and his vision were the only right ones, and mercilessly persecuted anyone who disagreed. His rule, like Stefan's, also gave rise to various nasty personages. Some might even argue that he didn't know about their nastiness. > > People *can* do some horrible things while having good intentions. > > I'm still waiting for an example. The last one didn't convince me. > Well, I guess you have weird views on morals then. I'll give you another example though, to be convinced that your reaction is indeed consistent. This time it'll be theoretical. Suppose a foreign power conquered a country and imposed an oppressive regime upon it. A rebel leader fights this regime, and in the process kills or otherwise harms innocent commoners who are citizens of that foreign power. He doesn't see anything wrong with it though, because they are all "hated oppressors", and he sees his intentions as good, freeing his country from foreign tyranny. Would you classify him as good? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:58:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't think it > said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule stopped, but > it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. > When I read it, it seemed to me there's still a lot of discontent among Traladarans. I guess you interpreted it as if they were all living happily and prosperously, loving the Good Duke Stefan. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:02:33 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Eustace wrote: > > evidence to back up whatever POV we want. Much of what has been argued, is > done by assigning 20th century moral values to a 14-15th century fantasy I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just throw away alignments altogether (as I've been tempted to do on numerous occasions) and just say that Stefan did some good things and some bad things. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:19:07 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Larry E. Lamb" wrote: > > If he is as bad as people say he is and that he dosent act as a LG aligned > NPC should and if it's demanstreated then the real fault is with TSR for not > geting the setting right. If K;KoA is that bad then it's TSR's fault and > thats the diredction that this should go for it's them that wrote the > "cannon" and screwed up on how thay portryed Stafan. Exactly, though I would say that the problem is more in the abundance of incoherencies than with a "misrepresentation" of good Stefan's actions. That is, if the actions are not coherent with his alignment, correcting the alignment is easier than correcting the actions. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:20:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > And kill the jews (not even just convert them, but > cause genocide) That's the difference. If hitler > hadn't wanted to kill all those jew's and just set out > to conquer the world he wouldn't have been have been > half as bad. Another difference, stefan knows People are constantly trying to bring genocide into this, even though I never mentioned it. All I was saying was that even people like Hitler and Milosevic had some good intentions. BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD!!! -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:32:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan Wizard's Shopper wrote: >> Good heavens! You are really a piece of work. << I'd just like to note for the record that those who have recently posted offended at the tone of some messages seem to have no problem with such a tone when it is taken by "their side" - only one such example being referenced above. Faced with that, it's certainly not out of line to point out that some people lack judgement or refuse to use it, or are engaging in sycophancy. Now, I can certainly understand that certain folks hold themselves and those they agree with to a lower standard of decorum than they expect from others, but the truth is the tone has been mutual, though I for one don't think the *tone* has gotten out of hand (I can certainly take it). Now, some of the exculpatory inventions have, as well as the decrying of those of us who point to canon examples as not doing so, especially when done by those who's "case in defense of Stefan" is based upon inventions not so rooted and not supported by examples. But that's another matter all together. >> When I read it, it seemed to me there's still a lot of discontent among Traladarans. I guess you interpreted it as if they were all living happily and prosperously, loving the Good Duke Stefan. << Yes, the image of the happy, frolicking Traladarans who are so greatful Stefan came to rescue them from themselves is somewhat belied by their actual situation. I'd call it closer to sullen resignation to their lot, combined with a sense of "this too shall pass" destiny. One must remember that the things the Traladarans decry were brought in and exacerbated by Stefan - especially all the pushy Thyatians taking the land and all the positions of authority (Thyatian presence in Traladara was minimal before Stefan came. The "canon" does not say that with the Thyatian invasion came many ruthless men who literally stole land from the Traladarans - no, that came in with Stefan. Similarly, the initial Thyatians hadn't shoved asside the Church of Traladara - Thyatis itself being rather broad-minded when it comes to religion - that, too, came in with Stefan and his "Church of Me". Etc, etc. etc. Life in Traladara was improving steadily before Stefan's arrival, I don't think anyone can a! ! ptly say he improved it more than it otherwise would have, especially when balanced with the negative things he brought with him - no Ludwig or Desmond II Kelvin or Alfric Oderby before Stefan brought them in, etc). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:34:11 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1CE7C2.1020306@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > Quoting Agathokles : > > > > > >> Wizards Shopper wrote: > >> > >>> Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land against > >>> humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. > >> > >> IYO, you should add. > > > > > > So, these are /not/ good things? I don't think this is /just/ IMO. > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will > you say? > If I'm a medieval peasant, I have no power over my government anyway, so I say 'Yes, m'lord'. The Traladarans had already lost their independence long before Stefan showed up, and the majority of them had not had any political power anyway, because they were already ruled by a hereditary noble class, which includes people like vampires (see Sulescu). John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Alignments? (was Karameikos) >> I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just throw away alignments altogether (as I've been tempted to do on numerous occasions) and just say that Stefan did some good things and some bad things. << I've been tempted to do that on occasion, myself, and have even argued for that (now, though, throwing out the Alignments doesn't mean there won't be good and bad people and various shades in between. Shadowrun, for example, doesn't have alignments but that doesn't mean it has no evil villians - throwing out the alignments wouldn't all the sudden transform Stefan into a good ruler.) In the end, things stand in the way (multiple things from classes to magic items to monsters to spells that are tied to alignment) for it to be practical (or at least for it to be "easily practical"). The 3E alignments are at least much better described, IMO, and pretty clear as to what is covered by each, so I'm going to see how it works out before chucking the alignment system. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:41:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D54FB.68A2416C@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Solmyr wrote: > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > The organised military presence in the interior that protects the settlements > > and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. Roads are better. Trade > > has been expanded and resource industries have improved as a result of the > > preceding points. High level clerical aid is available where it was not > > previously. There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > > established where there was none. Etc., etc. > > > Do you suggest that humanoids regularly kicked Traladarans' arses before > then? Doesn't sound like that to me, considering the Song of Halav. So > that discounts military presence. Most of the country was uninhabited monster infested wilderness when every country around Karameikos was fairly well settled and peaceful. This suggests that the Traladarans couldn't fight worth squat, and were incapable of properly dealing with the internal threats from the humanoids. > Better roads and trade is not necessarily good in itself. It's not > indicated anywhere that Traladarans needed those things - they existed > perfectly well before them. People existed perfectly well before proper medicines too, but that doesn't mean they didn't benefit from them. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:42:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1D5BB9.D94B6E18@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Solmyr wrote: > Daniel Eustace wrote: > > > > evidence to back up whatever POV we want. Much of what has been argued, is > > done by assigning 20th century moral values to a 14-15th century fantasy > > I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on > 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just Not really. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> All I was saying was that even people like Hitler and Milosevic had some good intentions. BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD!!! << Yes - this is a variant of the "ends justify the means" position; if you mean well, how you achieve your intentions and whether they work out and whether you learn from that and correct mistakes isn't considered to matter. But it does matter. Sadly, though, too many people have come to believe that if someone's aims are good - or, worse, if they and that person simply *think* their aims are good, then that intention is all that matters. Well, just about everyone thinks their ends are worthy ones and those who disagree are wrongheaded. If everyone then thought that implimenting their "vision" by any means nessissary was justified - well, the world we live in is getting closer and closer to that with every passing year, and this century has been repleat with people who thought their intentions and goals were so worthy that it didn't matter how they achieved them (graveyards are filled with their dead - usually unmarked ones). Stefan has a "vision" which he would impose on a nation (shape and mold it in his image) - he's indifferent to considerations asside from implimenting his vision (some here say it is a good vision, while others of us think it's dubious at best, but irregardless we think that HOW it is implimented matters at least as much as the intentions behind it). Its means of implimentation have been dubious, especially since its single-minded pursuit has caused Stefan to not pay attention to other matters (thus allowing despoilation, murder, and the like to be committed by his agents, persons appointed to positions of authority by him). Now, Stefan might be Neutral (he's indifferent to these things), or evil (he's tacitly promoting these things), but he isn't good (he isn't stepping in to stop these abuses, which he brought with him and in effect caused through his apointments.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:54:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1D5BB9.D94B6E18@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Solmyr wrote: > I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on > 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just > throw away alignments altogether (as I've been tempted to do on numerous > occasions) and just say that Stefan did some good things and some bad > things. Throw it away! What determines if a person is good or evil? Mainly the context. Good and evil arent personality traits, but roles that characters play in the story. Whether a person comes out as good or bad depends on who told the story. Thats why alignments made up by TSR (or whoever) dont really work. Because the gaming companies arent the ones telling the stories. We are. Im not saying that moreality doesnt exits. Im just saying that making up universal rules about it and forcing everyone to apply the same rules doesnt work because we are all different. This is why I like the Stefan, Dark King of Karameikos article. Because it presents an alternate way of portraying Stefan. Its iup to me if I want to use one or the other. Pointing out various events in Stefans life and trying to convince everybody that one version is true or false is pointless. All IMO, oviously :) H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> People existed perfectly well before proper medicines too, but that doesn't mean they didn't benefit from them. << Machines, like roads and Stefan, are morally neutral. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:57:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1CE7C2.1020306@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "G.P. Agosta" : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > Quoting Agathokles : > > > > > >> Wizards Shopper wrote: > >> > >>> Setting up a stable government, a military to defend the land > against > >>> humanoid incursions, building roads, cities, etc., were good things. > >> > >> IYO, you should add. > > > > > > So, these are /not/ good things? I don't think this is /just/ IMO. > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will > you say? In the end, it would depend on what sort of government is being created. If it was still as good as or better than before in the final analysis. If you're asking if I would be upset at the change because of uncertainty, yes I would. That is also what happened in Karameikos when Stefan arrived. No question. However, you are trying to say that was /evil/, and I disagree. It's questionable from a modern perspective, and I think that is what you are trying to appeal to in your argument. But it is not evil. It is also not really bad from a mediaeval / byzantine / renaissance perspective (your choice). > >> I don't think anyone asked Stefan to set up a > >> stable government, a military, etc. > >> The Traladarans had fared well for centuries without him, and would > have > >> continued that way for many other, if it was their choice. > > > > > > Well, that's arguable and that's where we enter the grey areas. > However, > > Traladarans /are/ participants in the country, not just some victims, > as of > > 1000 A.C. Also, the country at large prospers more for the > infrastructure that > > he put in place. If more prosperity in general is not what you > consider good, > > oh well. However, it is clear that Stefan and many others on Mystara > consider > > it good. > > It is clear that the Traladarans didn't invite Stefan. It is not a grey > area. What may have happened to them without him, it is not Stefan's > businness. Again, this is modern perspective. But, even from a modern perspective he wouldn't be considered evil. > > Perhaps you would argue that the Traladarans would eventually have > improved > > themselves in the absence of interference, but the fact is the > Traladarans > > would never have been left alone to choose their destiny anyway. As a > part of > > the Empire, they were relegated to hicks and the territory was > considered a > > potential threat, because it was a frontier full of dangerous > humanoids without > > any organised local way of dealing with them. > > Actually, the local nobles seem to have dealt without problems with the > humanoids (BTW, judging from B10, there aren't that many humanoid > around) for centuries. Fiefs like Marilenev and Dmitrov existed far > before Karameikos. Marilenev is on the coast. I think Dmitrov is also (correct me if I'm wrong). I was talking about the problem of humanoids in the interior. Communities were small or non-existent before where they thrive now, and I think an argument can be made that their growth was assisted by the greater protection and organisation brought by Stefan as Duke. Before you get on my case about my statement about small communities, remember that the town of Kelvin was founded by Kelvin near the goblin-infested Dymrak Forest, and Threshold was just a village when Sherlane arrived. I believe it's stated in both the Darokin Gaz and the Karameikos Gaz that there are orcs that still raid from the mountains that border Karameikos and Darokin. It also says in Gaz 1 that every few years there's a special concerted effort with Ylaruam to unite against the humanoids (don't remember what kind, I think orcs) in the mountains that border their two countries. It's certainly implied that without that level of action, organisation, and cooperation, the humanoids of the area would be a big, big threat. > > > >>> This did not > >>> happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the > gnomes, > >> > >> and > >> > >> Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the > Hin > >> too. > > > > > > Sheesh. This is obviously a misrepresentation of my position. > > Sorry, but is what you said, literally No, it is literally what I did not say. I didn't mention the Traladarans or the Hin at all. You are implying that by not including them in a list of neighbouring (and by that I mean nearby and basically within the borders of what is now Karameikos) and peaceful races, that I must be saying those unlisted races are warlike. /That/ is a misrepresentation of my position. I also did not mention the Darokinians, and I'm not calling them warlike by their non-mention, either. Try this on: I didn't mention Traladarans because I was talking about their /neighbours/. Also, I didn't consider the Hin neighbours in the sense that I didn't think of them as nearby (as the gnomes and elves are, for example). > > I was pointing out that Stefan didn't generally go around slaughtering > and was > > using still /other/ examples than the Traladarans. I was also > pointing out > > that Traladarans were not the only ones who benefited from Stefan > being Duke. > > All of these things are indications of being a good ruler. > > And I used the Hin, because you mentioned examples *outside* Karameikos: > whatever Stefan may believe, no part of the population of Karameikos is > composed by elves or gnomes, which have their own kingdoms (they don't > pay taxes, and have their legal systems). Outside the political framework, yes. But surrounded by their borders, nonetheless. I didn't mention the Hin, because they don't have any settlements listed. The only thing I might apologise for on that account is marginalising them by their non-mention, but let's try really hard not to get bogged down in minutiae. My assertion remains: Stefan did act evilly. > > >> I mean, if > >> someone steals some money from your neighbour, the fact that he's > >> willing to share the loot with you does not make him less of a thief > (at > >> most, it may show that you aren't a good neighbour, in the end). > > > > > > Well, that's not the way I see it as happening. Stefan didn't steal > from the > > Traladarans and give to the Elves, and Gnomes. He started /managing/ > the > > country and the change of management was resented at first, but the > results 30 > > years later (outside of Black Eagle) are good. > > How is he paying his elven mercenaries? You're saying the Elven Guard is somehow a disservice to the Traladarans? First off, it's not clear how the elves are compensated - it /could/ be their service is effectively free; I seem to recall it's part of the deal to keep Callarii elves from being interfered with. Secondly, even if they /are/ paid, all other soldiers in Karameikos are paid, too, Traladaran, Thyatian, mixed or elven. So what? Lastly, there is a clear arrangement that has been made with the elves by Stefan and it seems to be good for the entire country. You can quibble about that last point if you really, really want, but I'm starting to not care. > > The benefits to the elves and gnomes were safer trade routes, > guaranteed non- > > interference, normalised and formalised relations, etc., etc. > > Actually, the gnomes have little interest in formalised relations, and > their caravans are still under the threat of bandits (read the first few > adv. hooks!). As for the elves, Stefan pays them. I don't remember it saying what, if anything, the elves are paid, but you could be right. > >>> It's also worth reminding everyone that the patriarchs of both major > >> > >> (and good!) religions in the region support his rule. > >> > >> Actually, the Patriarch of the Traladaran Church is hostile to > Stefan. > >> The Gaz says that it is because he is friend with Jowett that he has > >> decided to try assimilating the Thyatians instead of trying to chase > >> them (and, I may add, because the revolts have already failed). > > > > > > Jowett is the Patriarch of the CoK, right? So, how did they become > friends? > > Also, Stefan and Jowett are friends, too, correct? > > Friendship doesn't always benefit of the transitive property, you know? I know, but that wasn't what I was implying. I mean that Jowett came with Stefan and the two patriarchs would not have been likely to meet and become personal friends. I know that wasn't clear, but I answered a lot of e-mail on these threads, so forgive me for the occasional lack of clarity. > The two Patriarchs are personal friends, but that doesn't imply that > they aren't trying to convert each the other's followers, for example. > (read the gaz, it is exactly what Aleksyev is trying to do; also, it > says that Aleksyev is hostile to Stefan, just check it). Alright, I'll concede that point. I still don't think it shows that Stefan is evil. > > Anyway, a point I made in another post stands: If Stefan were an evil > or unfit > > ruler, both Patriarchs would have a moral imperative to act against > him. They > > don't. > > Aleksyev is acting against Stefan. Just he is trying the legal way, > because he think he has no other solution. How, exactly, is he acting against Stefan. You'll have to refresh my memory. Also, is the result he is looking for Traladaran independence? Someone can want that even if their country is generally run well and fairly. i.e. Quebec separatists (who are working within the law). None of that demonstrates the Stefan is evil. > As to the CoK, see the LN thing. > > >> As to the religions being good, I must say that only the Church of > >> Traladara is basically good. The Church of Karameikos is Lawful > >> (Neutral, with individuals free to range from Evil to Good), and the > >> Cult of Halav is definitely Chaotic Neutral. > > > > > > I had always taken the Churches to be "good." I don't want to get > into a big > > disagreement about it, but I don't have any material that says > otherwise. > > Alfric Oderbry is definitely evil, and he as a large following in the > CoK. This definitely proves that part of that Church isn't good. As a > result, the CoK is LN, on average. Also, read their precepts, and tell > me they're good! I read Alfric's description last night, and I agree he is Lawful Evil. I remember reading the precepts of the CoK, and thinking they were made to look like a RL major religion, which I take to be good. I don't have it in front of me to refer to, though. At any rate, there are evil people in good institutions, and that doesn't make the institution itself evil. This is all tangential to the original discussion, also, so I'm willing to drop it if you are. In fact, I'm willing to drop it even if you aren't. =;) [snip] > > In contrast, you represent his position as: a person who believes evil > is good > > is a good person. That's incorrect. Because of this, Solmyr's > reasoning does > > not apply. > > > > I think the point we disagree on, really, is whether Stefan was aware > of what > > was going on. I don't think he was, and canon seems to agree. If he > /was/ > > aware and did nothing, that would make him evil - or incompetent. > That seems > > to be the argument. I'm just trying to distill it. > > Not really, I argue that Stefan's supporters are willing to accept a > large number of "I find it not that hard to believe" things in order to > support a single point: that Stefan is lawful and good. To me, that is > turning a blind eye over all of Stefan (in)actions. I guess it is. I also think it was the original intent of the authors. > Also, people aren't judged on intentions, but on actions. If your > actions are consistently not lawful, well, you just aren't lawful. > And the same for goodness. > > My points are essentially that: > > a) Stefan establishes a form of government which is largely based on a > person, instead of a code of law (ex.: his decisions aren't good > examples of juridical expertise, he use direct judgement often, he sees > the open court as an important tool, etc). He /does/ have a system of law, which is clear, and which he uses to make his decisions. The open court is just a way to ensure that other branches of the goverment have accountability and that there is always at least one way to make a final appeal. IMO, that is very lawful. > This shows he is not so > Lawful (though many people will just tell me: "This doesn't prove he is > not good", confusing the two points). Also, his actions in the WotI > against Thyatis may be the result of a non-Lawful behaviour (though they > may as well come from an Evil character). Well, I'll argue that, too. Killing is generally considered evil. However, where the death sentence exists, executing a serial killer is not evil. It's still killing, but the difference is that one is in the interests of the common good. I believe Stefan was trying to act in the interests of the common good of his people. You can argue that, but I think that was the intent of the authors as well. Karameikos as a country comes out better for his decisions. > b) Stefan is not that good, as he essentially doesn't care for the > Machetos people, doesn't care about the Traladarans, which his followers > mistreat. He doesn't remove Ludwig, which cannot be explained without > recurring to long-winded complots to leave Stefan in the dark of what's > happening within his own kingdom. I don't think Stefan thought the Machetos people would really come off that bad, sorry. Also, Stefan /does/ care about the Traladarans, which (some of) his followers mistreated. (cf. Davinos complaint.) Your last point really says that you don't like the foil used by the original author, which is that Stefan is in the dark. Well, not much we can do about that now. [snip] > >> Actually, Karameikos is *based* on ethnic oppositions: Stefan plays > one > >> group against the other (he uses the Traladarans to guard the > Thyatian > >> border, and the worst Thyatian to guard the Hin border). > > > > Again, this is ascribing specific intents where I don't think it's > necessary. > > You can imagine it that way in your campaign, but it is /not/ > necessary. > > Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may > find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. Not coincidence. Design. At a meta-level, the game designers wanted it that way. In the campaign, the machinations and designs of the archetypical villain are not supposed to be discovered by the ultimate good guy NPC, but by the PCs. For game purposes, that means that as a DM you are supposed to come up with the reasons why that is the case. You don't wanna. I can't make you. Oh well. [snip] > > Threshold is out on the > > mountainous borders where there are large numbers of orcs. Kelvin > helps guard > > against the goblins of the Dymrak. > > Uhm, four to six characters of levels 3-4 are more than a match for > those goblins. Farmers are not PCs of level 3-4 and generally none of them are mages, like in a mixed party. > > I don't recall if it says the Rugalov Keep is mainly Traladarans or > not, but I > > don't think it's worth arguing about. It hardly matters. > > It does, in the Gaz. And it matters, as it shows that Stefan is more > than willing to use ethnic oppositions to strenghten his power. I would put it more along the lines of "maintain stability." You choose otherwise. Also, it's hardly surprising that the majority of his soldiers are Traladaran, since that's the majority of the population. So, if Traladaran soldiers support him, how is this Traladaran oppression? -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:14:06 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan [tongue-in-cheek] In-Reply-To: <3A1C3FCC.E30F2381@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 10:51:08PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 10:51:08PM +0100, Caroletti wrote: > > > > Description: > > Stefan takes a look at the current political situation and > > make a monumental decision. He throws a lavish dinner party > > See? "a lavish dinner party". He must surely be evil. No no no! He only *thinks* it's lavish, and he doesn't realise that the soup is *supposed* to be served cold. Also comparing Stefan to the Swedish Chef is not accurate. Apart from them both saying "Bork bork bork!" there's no real connection and bring in RL examples of muppets does not advance the discussion! Besides, Stefan did have a flag! [No flag, no country!] :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:15:39 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C44B5.7F6A0BC@kolumbus.fi>; from solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI on Thu, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:12:05AM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:12:05AM +0200, Solmyr wrote: > > > a military to defend the land against humanoid > > incursions, building roads, cities, > > Hitler did all that too. Hitler defended Germany against the humanoids? Wow, I shouldn't have fallen asleep during history classes! :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:16:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1CF1C1.3090509@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "G.P. Agosta" : [snip] > Traladaran nobles remaining? Sulescu, because it was far, and hard to > dislodge. Dromilov, because was pacific and didn't try to oppose Stefan. > No other Traladaran ruler (from that time, Rugalov wasn't a fief) that I > can remember of. What about Magda of Marilenev? [snip] > > In any event, I do remember the Gaz saying something along the lines > that the > > people respect Stefan, if not necessarily Thyatians in general. > > Yet, they are ready to rebel... When they are incited and told lies, I guess so. They are also very willing to not rebel when the facts come out. Hmm.... > >>> The organised military presence in the interior that protects the > >>> settlements and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. > > It doesn't: read the adventure hooks, or B10 and 11 It's an improvement over no protection, even if it is imperfect. Also, Kelvin is a new, military presence since Stefan. Population is mostly Traladaran. Hmm... [snip] > > No, but he did bring the CoK. Two or three more Patriarchs makes a > > difference. Two of them are in the interior, where such aid did not > > previously exist. > > There is no proof that there weren't CoT patriarchs before. Many priests > of the CoT got killed in the rebellion. Patriarch-level priests killed in the rebellion? That's hard to believe, even for you. Besides, one would think something like that would have been mentioned. Moreover, if there were itinerant patriarchs, Zemiros Sulescu probably wouldn't still be around, now would he? > >>> There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > >>> established where there was none. Etc., etc. > >> > >> For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the > >> Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for > >> example) > > > > Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's > > founder, and even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. > > IIRC, they are at the same level (15). My memory is different. I recall Bargle as 14th and the founder as 17th or 18th. He had 7th level spells, I'm pretty sure. > > BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. > > Zemiros Sulescu, Nosferatu Wizard, level 9... what else do I have to > look at? Okay, I'll have to look back. I remember Zemiros in Gaz 1 as a fighter. Are you using the same reference, or KKoA? -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:17:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1CF66C.9070701@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "G.P. Agosta" : > >> Actually, the fact that the Traladarans are clearly ready to rebel > >> (during the Davinos adventure, or in the Magda adv. hook), shows that > >> this discontent never stopped. > > > > That was not real discontent with Stefan's rule, but was incitements > by the > > Veiled Society, et al. The heroes show the truth of the matter in the > > adventure and *poof* no more discontent. > > > > BTW: Riots can be started by professionals or malcontents without > there > > being any real majority dislike of the government. It even happens in > the > > U.S. from time to time. =;) > > Depends on what you would mean by "real majority dislike". Personally, I > don't think that a perfectly satisfied population will set an uprising > just because some "malcontents" are starting it. Incitement is just a > way of sparking a revolt, then you need something to fuel it. True. You need somthing to fuel it. And it always dies out. Funny that. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:18:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1C6517.BFEC2ACB@libero.it>; from agathokles@LIBERO.IT on Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 11:30:15PM +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 11:30:15PM +0000, Agathokles wrote: > > > > The organised military presence in the interior that protects > > the settlements > > and highways there from humanoids is an improvement. > > There isn't any proof that Stefan's army is more effective than the > Thyatian Legions. Actually the Legions didn't really affect the interior at all. It's mentioned in Gaz 1 that apart from Marlinev, the rest of the country was left pretty much alone.. Of course Stefan's army may well have been as effective as no troops :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:20:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan In-Reply-To: <20001123015047.2249.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com>; from c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM on Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 05:50:47PM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 05:50:47PM -0800, Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > However, and I think this point has been lost in > > this discussion, > > yes your issue has, because it is not the main issue > :-) No one ever wants to discuss dinner guests anymore... :) > Still if it's fun for you thats what it's all about. Damn straight! "Now Empires, give all the conquered countries back! Thyatis, what's that behind your back?" "The Isle of Dawn and number of other small countries. But we need Helskir for strategic sheep purposes!" gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <00c701c05545$b9e87ea0$e8c261d4@skytte> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Jacob Skytte : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > > There are cities now where there were none. A magical guild was > > > > established where there was none. Etc., etc. > > > > > > For one "good" wizard you get a (more powerful) evil one. And the > > > Traladarans have (or had) their wizards (Sulescu is still there, for > > > example) > > > > Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's > founder, and > > even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. > > Wrong. According to Gaz1 (which I would take to be the source for > AC1000), Teldon (founder and head of the Magician's Guild) is a 15th > level Magic-user (p.52). Bargle the Infamous is also a 15th level > Magic-user (p.59). Level-wise they are equal, and you can't outright say > which is the more powerful. Also note that in Teldon's description it > says: "...Teldon came to Karameikos [...] 30 years ago [...] he was then > the greatest authority on magic...". This is what I had remembered ... which is that Teldon was the greatest authority on magic. That would imply that he was the highest level MU. > So this doesn't tell us who the > highest level wizard in Karameikos is, as of AC1000. I think (yes, I don't have a reference with me!) the highest level MU residing in Karameikos is one of the Ambassadors. Also, if there was a higher-level Traladaran wizard, I would have expected him or her to be described in the important characters section, though. > > BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. > > So, Zemiros Sulescu, ruler of Sulescu, a Nosferatu with the powers of a > 9th level Magic-user (p.39), is/was not a Traladaran wizard? Since the > description of the Nosferatu (p.60) specifically states that the > Nosferatu keeps it's original character class and level, obviously > Zemiros was originally a 9th level Magic-user. Sulescu has been ruled by > a Traladaran wizard for the past 300 years, apparently. > > You really should refrain from making claims like these, if you haven't > bothered to check the source material, you know... It puts your > statements in a very bad light. "If he was just making this up, what > else did he just make up?" Good point. Thanks, Jacob. I /was/ answering from memory, and made mistakes. I didn't want the argument about whether Stefan was LG and a decent ruler to get one-sided, so I opened my big mouth too fast. I will try to be more circumspect in the future. Still all of my statements about canon are open to verification. If I'm wrong in my recall, I don't mind being corrected. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:41:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Karameikos is medieval because... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is > definitely not Middle Age > (at least not in the Western European way). Also, > beyond Darokin and > Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. > -- Doi you know what the rennasance is? It came about mostly because of three things, the printing press (education, and spread of ideas), weaponry(RW: guns, Mystara: Magic), rediscovery of clasical ideas. Now if you have byzantine thyatis, that gets a lot more magic, becomes more educated, and already has classical ideas, I think you pretty much have a rennasance society. Karameikos on the other hand is quite low magic, low education, and lacking on classical idea's. Thus medieval. Karameikos is becomeing rennasance, but that will take time and in the mean time stefan is there to point it to this future. Things will change, but what stefan has done will stay and move the country into a stronger, better, future. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:57:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan > Wizards Shopper wrote: >> Again, this is modern perspective. But, even from a modern perspective he wouldn't be considered evil. << Well that sort of begs the question, since the "modern perspective" is rarely willing to call anything evil, beyond "Big Tobacco". >> My assertion remains: Stefan did act evilly. << Well, I agree with you here. >> First off, it's not clear how the elves are compensated - it /could/ be their service is effectively free; I seem to recall it's part of the deal to keep Callarii elves from being interfered with. << So your position is that he intimidates them into serving him or he will somehow "interfere with" them (what? Sic another cousin on them if they don't knuckle under?) and that would be a good thing? If Thincol did something like that to get elves (or anyone else) to serve him, we'd know how to classify that (neutral at best, borderline evil most likely, or even actively nasty possibly. Point being we wouldn't use that as an example of how good he is). >> He /does/ have a system of law, which is clear, and which he uses to make his decisions. << So do elves, but that doesn't make them Lawful Good. It takes more than laws to make one Lawful. Even neutral countries have laws (even Neutral Evil ones for that matter). >> The open court is just a way to ensure that other branches of the goverment have accountability << Doesn't seem to work that way in practice ("accountability" has never been applied to Ludwig, among others). Having an institution but then not having it function properly is not very Lawful, depending upon the reasons (I.E. it might be LE to have the institution as a sort of sop to gull people into thinking that accountability is being fostered, then not doing so - accontability is clearly something lacking in Stefan's Karameikos. Or it could be created with fairly good intentions, but then the ruler loses interest in it as a functioning institution, and it becomes moribund, the ruler would then be "neutral-indifferent", not Lawful.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:50:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Okay, I'm going to answer this post and then refrain until this evening, when I have my references. I have realised I made a couple of incorrect assertions in a previous post (on a tangential point) and I want to avoid invalidating my position in the discussion by making any other mistakes on account of misremembered facts. However, I just want to make it clear that Evil Genius' opinion on the matter is not the end all and be all of the discussion. I don't agree with his position, and I think it's neither stupid, nor unreasonable, to try to keep the original intent of the campaign authors, which is that Stefan Karameikos is a Lawful Good man ruling a difficult, young country and doing a reasonable job. Reconciling the reasons for the on-going existence in the setting of our archetypical villainous Baron is the job of the DM, although I admit the job was made pretty hard. I personally believe that the original intent was for PCs to bring about the downfall of Ludwig by bringing his evil ways to light. To that end, the writers gave lots of ways for the characters to do that. Still, saying that Stefan /must/ have known is wrong. He didn't and I guess it's the DM's job to say why, exactly. You are unwilling to go along with that, fine. But that still makes it strictly IYC, not what canon is or even ought to be. Quoting Evil Genius : > >> Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may > find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. << > > Sycophancy explains it all. Please. No one's fawning on Stefan. Don't build straw men. > When it comes to Stefan, they just cast > asside their own judgement and spew the party line; dismissing things > found in canon as if they were not there, I'm not dismissing canon, just disagreeing with your interpretations. There is a difference. > and then claiming that those arguing the other side are making things up I've never made this claim. I /have/ made specific mistakes w.r.t. Sulescu not being a wizard and bein incorrect about the level of two NPC wizards, and for that I apologise. I'll try to be more diligent in the future. Still, I haven't said anyone was making up canon facts. What I /do/ say is that you (and others) seem to want to attribute evil intent to a character that is clearly intended by the authors to be good. That's what I disagree with. > (this is also called > "projection", since as we see it is their arguments and explainations > which are usually made up "well it could have been thus and such" types > of things, rarely if ever referencing actual canon examples, Look, not everyone has their references with them 24 hrs a day. You seem to say that we require chapter and verse listings for an argument to be reasonable and worth listening to. I think that verges on anal retentive, but if that's the basis of any discussion with you, I will see what I can do in the future. No guarantees, but I'll see. Still, this is about whether Stefan Karameikos is Lawful Good and a decent ruler. Apparently, canon says his alignment is LG, so the burden of proof for the first part lies on you to show otherwise. You have done an *admirable* job of digging through examples in canon -- but if there is a reasonable explanation for his intent to be LG (whether it's in canon or not!) then your job is not done. That's the way the burden of proof works. As to whether he is a decent ruler, well, I don't think there is anything in canon that says literally, "Stefan is a good ruler." We can next argue who has the burden of proof about that issue, but I'm not sure I'm interested in that discussion. I do personally think Stefan is a decent ruler, if only because he manages to keep his country together despite all of the challenges. He /has/ brought improvements to the country, and I regret that the only canon example I have with chapter and verse references /off /the/ /top/ /of/ /my/ /head/ is the *new* town/city of Kelvin where previously there was just wilderness. (See Gaz 1, pg 14, column 2, paragraph 1. Many, many apologies if I got that reference wrong, but what you're looking for is where it says that Kelvin created a new settlement.) > but then > claiming it us us who have not, even though we're the ones who *have* > done so, and they say "well, canon doesn't describe things like what you > say" to examples taken directly from it). Their positions have gotten so > absurd it's hardly worth replying to most of them anymore, and it's > usually more an imbittering experience than an enlightening one to do so > anymore, so deep are we into propaganda-land when it comes to their > posts at this point. I contend your posts are the more propaganda-like, because you claim something is obvious, when the burden of proof really lies on you. > Truly, the Hosadus/Hule/Bozdogan comparison with > Stefan/Karameikos is certainly the most apt. Only IYO. > >> Uhm, four to six characters of levels 3-4 are more than a match for > those goblins. << A small number of goblins that don't have any shamans / wokans, and leaders, etc., sure. As a DM, I could easily find ways to make a goblin encounter deadly to a level 3-4 party. Besides, a nicely mixed party of 3rd-4th level adventurers isn't available in every village. > Those goblins are *WAY* too much for Our Hero King Stefan, however. Sarcasm as a weapon. I like it. I should try that sometime. Anyway, while a handful of goblins might not be a big deal, rooting them out of every foxhole and cave in the entire Dymrak obviously is impractical to attempt. Still, establishing a new city on the edge of it (Kelvin) and policing the immediate area /is/ done and seems a handy way of dealing with the problem in an on-going way. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:02:05 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brant Casavant Subject: Re: Karameikos is medieval because... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is > definitely not Middle Age > (at least not in the Western European way). Also, > beyond Darokin and > Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. I must interject here. I would like to point out that simply being located near a technologically/intellectually superior civilization does *not* make a nation more "civilized" simply by dint of proximity. One need only look at real world Europe: in the early 15th Century, Northern Italy was rediscovering the classics, delving into the arts, and beginning cultural and intellectual movements that historians would one day dub "humanism" and "the Renaissance." The Renaissance did not spread to, nor did it largely effect, the rest of Europe until the early to mid-16th Century. What prevented the spread of Renaissance ideas to the rest of Western Europe? The Alps. One range of mountains largely blocked the Renaissance from spreading into France, Germania, Spain and the like. The Alps were *that* insurmountable of an obstacle. It wasn't until the French invaded Northern Italy in the late 15th Century that the Renaissance was carried back into Europe. Moreover, there is the Byzantine Empire. While literacy and the arts died off in the 4th, 5th, and 6th Centuries, Byzantium maintained a relatively high level of literacy, a thoroughly efficient administration, a written set of laws, and a permanent, well-disciplined military. Did any of these traits rub off on Europe? No. In fact, the influence of Byzantium was not even really felt until the 15th Century, when Constantinople was conquered by the Turks and the wealthy Greeks moved to Italy. Only then did Greek become a spoken language on the Continent, and only then did Byzantine learning become widely known. Now let's translate that so it applies to Mystara. Darokin is a Renaissance-style civilization, and one could argue it is more intellectually, economically and culturally advanced then Karameikos. Thyatis, although modeled after the late Roman/early Byzantine Empire, is also intellectually and economically superior to Karameikos. What prevents Karameikos, craddled between the two, from being an "advanced" nation? Well, there's geography--Karameikos is separated from Darokin by a large mountain range. Granted, the only real geographical boundary between Karameikos and Thyatis is a river, but if one looks at a map of Karameikos, one sees that there aren't really any towns or cities along their shared border to accept spreading ideas, information, art and the like. Along this same line of throught, Karameikos has a dangerously underpopulated border, not just along the Thyatis side but along all sides (except maybe the Western border). This makes it hard for ideas and Renaissance-style civilization to diffuse across the border, since there are no people there for the ideas to fuse with. It's hard to force sudden cultural and intellectual change upon people--such changes need to be worked into their daily lives slowly for it have any lasting effect upon their way of life. Such is the case with Karameikos. Slowly, Darokinian and Thyatian "cilivization" will spread into the kingdom, but it will take a far greater span of time then the mere 50 years that Stefan has ruled. - Brant ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:10:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D5FE5.F6FD8281@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > > And kill the jews (not even just convert them, but > > cause genocide) That's the difference. If hitler > > hadn't wanted to kill all those jew's and just set out > > to conquer the world he wouldn't have been have been > > half as bad. Another difference, stefan knows > > People are constantly trying to bring genocide into this, even though I > never mentioned it. Unfortunately, genocide is what these people (Hitler, Milosevec) are known for. It's rather natural for it to be mentioned, and it's silly for you to get all upset that someone would. > All I was saying was that even people like Hitler > and Milosevic had some good intentions. The point you're missing is that they also had lots and lots of very evil intentions. All you succeed in showing is that evil people might still be capable of some some good intentions. I think you are trying to show that good intentions can often lead to evil behaviour. I manifestly disagree. > BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD!!! Yes it does! If all your intentions are good, then you are good. Note that I'm saying you cannot intend to do an evil thing knowing it is evil and still really have good intentions. What we are saying is: Not all of Hitler's or Milosevec's intentions were good. They, in fact, had some completely evil intentions. It is still undemonstrated that Stefan had /any/ evil intentions. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:13:34 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I didn't mean selling it to Stefan! I mean Thincol > could have just sold > a number of titles without giving indipendence to > anyone. but the independance is why it costs so much, and it is so profitable to sell. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:53:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: > > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will > > you say? > > > If I'm a medieval peasant, I have no power over my government anyway, so I > say 'Yes, m'lord'. That wasn't the case I was proposing to you. You're intentionally distorting my point, shifting the its weight from whether a certain form of government would be enjoyable for a medieval peasant to whether that medieval peasant had any power over it, which has nothing to do with the question. Also, even if you are a medieval peasant, you have some power over your government, as long as there is little or no central authority. Smaller communities in Traladara were essentially indipendent before Stefan's arrival. > The Traladarans had already lost their independence long before Stefan > showed up, and the majority of them had not had any political power > anyway, because they were already ruled by a hereditary noble class, This does not matter. The point was that Stefan's "improvements" to Traladara cannot be used as point in his defence, since no one had asked him to do them. The fact that every other autocratic government has the same legitimacy as Stefan's does not change the matter, as autocratic governments are illegitimate, as the power is not held by the people. And before you tell me, the fact that most/all medieval governement were not based on popular consensus does not help as well: it simply means that they were not legitimate. which > includes people like vampires (see Sulescu). Sulescu *is* an effective ruler, even though he is listed as Neutral. He protects his people, and he has no evil cousins to unleash over his subjects. There are no evil action which can be ascribed to Zemiros Sulescu, AFAIK. Your willingness to consider Stefan better than Sulescu only shows that you are prejudiced against nosferatus and in favour of Stefan. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:00:13 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > Most of the country was uninhabited monster infested wilderness when every > country around Karameikos was fairly well settled and peaceful. This > suggests that the Traladarans couldn't fight worth squat, and were > incapable of properly dealing with the internal threats from the > humanoids. Actually, by AC 1000 the situation is exactly the same: read the Gaz! Also, perhaps the Traladaran just avoided invading the humanoid lands (hey, even the humanoids have the right to live). As far as I can remember, there is little mention of unprovoked goblinoid attacks, except when the goblinoids are payed by the Black Eagle or the Iron Ring. > > Better roads and trade is not necessarily good in itself. It's not > > indicated anywhere that Traladarans needed those things - they existed > > perfectly well before them. > > People existed perfectly well before proper medicines too, but that > doesn't mean they didn't benefit from them. The example is not applicable, because Traladarans payed a steep price (higher taxes) for something which they never asked for, AFAIK. With medicines, it is not the same. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:12:00 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > > I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on > > 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just > > Not really. I don't see how a "not really" invalidates the statement. Does this mean that alignments aren't based on 20th century moral values, just because you tell so? In this case, it cannot work further than "IYO". Actually, alignments *are* based on 20th century moral values for a simple reason: alignments are absolute (at least in their definition; the application was often flawed, especially in OD&D, but that's another issue). And since they are absolute, they must be based on our own, otherwise we would risk defining as "Evil" something we would otherwise deem good, and vice versa. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:47:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D5A41.B79EE8C9@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:56 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > >> > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". >> >> Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right now. Let's >> say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine >> Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil or unfit. >> >He doesn't openly. Nothing is said about what he does secretly, or what >he silently accepts and encourages. Gaz 1, pg 51 (from Aleksyev Nikelnevich's writeup- the patriarch of the CoT): "He still carries bitterness against the Duke for the death of his parents, but does not conspire against the man or use his political sway to damage the royal family." Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to interpret this as they choose. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:54:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Still, I haven't said anyone was making up canon facts. << Not you, perhaps (though you have been very dismissive of opinions you don't share yourself, so I'm not exactly inclined to do otherwise either) but you're not the only person who's arguing against the position of myself and others. Chris, for example, has claimed several times that what I and others are saying isn't in canon - even when our position is explicitly based upon what is said in canon and we have directly referenced it on numerous occasions. Now, you've decried us, but not him. That's fair to an extent - you're on his side in this and vice versa. But my point is I think it would be better to not lecture just those you disagree with on these things. >> What I /do/ say is that you (and others) seem to want to attribute evil intent to a character that is clearly intended by the authors to be good. << When the authors say Stefan "sells out his long time allies" and "betrays" his homeland, I don't think they are saying "interpret this as a good act". >> Look, not everyone has their references with them 24 hrs a day. You seem to say that we require chapter and verse listings for an argument to be reasonable and worth listening to. << Nope, not at all. What I do expect, though, is that folks not claim that I and those arguing the same position are ignoring canon, when we're the ones referencing it. Frankly, I find that offensive. Its fine if folks don't have it with them or don't care to look things up (On occasions I've said I don't have time or am to lazy to look up X, but still given my opinion. So I wouldn't object to people giving their opinion if they weren't able to look things up. But I do object to them claiming that I'm ignoring canon when I quote it and they do not). You haven't been the worst offender on this score, but you've hardly been the soul of civil discourse, either. >> Apparently, canon says his alignment is LG, so the burden of proof for the first part lies on you to show otherwise. << Which we've done. Now, if I wanted to be petty, I might say, for example in your earlier post on this topic you stood ready to defend to the utmost the position that Stefan is Lawful Neutral, because you thought canon said that, but now you stand ready to defend to the end the proposition that Stefan is Lawful Good. His behavior hasn't been changed in the meantime. My entire position is based on the belief that we're allowed to apply our own judgement in our evaluation of canon events and behavior - not just somewhat blindly accept a label put on something ("He's Lawful Neutral because it says so - oh, wait, he's Lawful Good because it says that." - his behavior, motivations, inclinations, decisions, etc. have remained unchanged. IMO, that's how one's character {or, if you prefer the AD&D version, "alignment") is to be evaluated. As for some of the arguments put forward to exculpate him, they've been reaches at best which would convince no jury, if "evidence beyond reasonable doubt" is what's wanted, the preponderance of such actual evidence has been with us, not with his admirers. And, frankly, the burden is actually on *you* when "canon" says he's a betrayer who sells out his allies and homeland to prove that he isn't such a sort of person. Similarly, "he made a mistake" isn't a good enough excuse if he fails to correct it for over thirty five years - regarding people acting under his authority. That's pretty telling. Now, on the other hand also, "your side" has somewhat distorted what "our side's" point has been - on numerous occasions we've left open the possibility that he's just. . .not cut out for the responsibilities of rulership, to put it kindly. But the polemical claim by "your side" has been that we insist upon characterizing him as evil (nope - I've left open the possibility that he's neut! ! ral/indifferent, which at times those arguing in the alternative have also argued, or come very very close to arguing, and also the possibility that he's a nice man who just isn't cut out for the job, but good thing Olivia's around to save the day. You then mischaracterise my position as insisting that he's evil, and then go about knocking down that straw man. So with that in mind I take criticisms that I'm "setting up straw men" with a grain of salt.) >> Sarcasm as a weapon. I like it. I should try that sometime. << You have, on numerous occasions. Your "I'm innocent" ploy is very innovative, however. >> Still, establishing a new city on the edge of it (Kelvin) << Well, Stefan didn't actually do that. If you want to claim that he's not responsible for the goings on at Fort Doom, then you can't simoultaniously claim that he's responsible for creating Kelvin. Now, he's not responsible for the initial happenings at Fort Doom - but he is responsible for letting them go on, and on, and on, and on, and on. Similarly, I don't recall him clearing Kelvin - simply claiming credit for him. It's a bit of a stretch for your position to be that Stefan gets credit for the good things that happen in Traladara/Karameikos, or at least gets to share the credit - but gets none of the blame for anything that goes wrong. As for the "civilizing reach" stuff, well Calimsham and the Shoon Imperium fought beholders, built cities (including some impressive ones), etc. But that didn't make them good people either, in the context of the other goings on. So it's not dispositive proof of goodness that Stefan built roads (Shoon Imperium did that, too) or that cities grew up in places like Kelvin (Shoon Imperium founded cities also) during his reign. You want him, it seems, to be the font of all the good things (where was Desmond Kelvin when Stefan was out building Kelvin?) but be completely absolved of the bad things that happened for similar reasons - and which, indeed, it could be more accurately said that Stefan is responsible for (cities and trade were growing in Traladara just nicely before Stefan arrived). But there was no Black Eagle - it took Stefan to create one. No rapacious lords stealing land from the Traladarans - it took Stefan to appoint them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan Destiny Comments Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >> It's hard to argue with good solid, academic references ;-) << Well, it might be hard to refute them, but as we see it's not hard for people to argue with them anyhow. 8-) Gordon wrote: > > It's the way some of James posts have footnotes, references to page > numbers in Gazetteers and occasional mentions of 1984 and Babylon 5 > that I like :) It's been awhile, so: The scene: Thyatis City, AC 969, a young Duke Stefan Karameikos travels to The City to seek out a Seer to confirm the destiny he feels within him. The Seer provides this. "Well, take this, for what little it will profit you. As I look at you, Duke Karameikos, I see a great hand reaching out of the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds--the sounds of billions of people calling your name." Stefan: "My followers?" "Your victims." With that, the Seer departs. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan Ranma Al'Thor wrote: >> If I'm a medieval peasant, I have no power over my government anyway, so I say 'Yes, m'lord'. << Which explains why Stefan left Thyatis - citizens expecting a voice in government *definately* wasn't one of the aspects of his home Stefan brought with him (ruthless guys, yes. Senate and Citizenship, no). No Senate to curb his absolutist power. Just peons to push around. No wonder he ended up closer to Alphatia in the end. >> Your willingness to consider Stefan better than Sulescu only shows that you are prejudiced against nosferatus and in favour of Stefan. << An excelent point made by Giamaolo. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 15:11:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <975008437.3a1d72b5afd23@members.uniserve.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM 11/23/00 -0800, Wizards Shopper wrote: > >I think (yes, I don't have a reference with me!) the highest level MU residing >in Karameikos is one of the Ambassadors. Also, if there was a higher-level >Traladaran wizard, I would have expected him or her to be described in the >important characters section, though. Lady Marianita Lucia de Leon y Valdez, Ambassador from Glantri- Level 18 MU. Yep, you're right. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:37:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1CDC89.9040404@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 02:59 AM, G.P. Agosta wrote: >Now, now, do you really think that Byzantine+Renaissance=Middle Age!!! Oh, please, stop being silly. I clearly said that Thyatis=Byzantine (though I think its really more like the ending of Rome than Byzantine), Darokin=Renaissance, and Karameikos=Middle Ages. And if you traveled from Thyatis to Darokin it would be like walking a timeline. You'd start out in Byzantine, enter the Middle Ages, and arrive at the Renaissance. >Both Thyatis and Darokin are technologically, socially and politically >far more progressed than Middle Age (especially High), so the result >cannot be that bad. Also, remember that we are talking about Stefan, who >is a Thyatian. The fact that he moved in a less advanced region does not >justify him as being a naive middle-age king (even if such thing was >historically justifiable). Okay, short history lesson. The Middle Ages came after the fall of Rome. It was a regression. Something like a sophisticated man becoming king of a wilderness. Sounds like Karameikos, doesn't it? A Karameikan Renaissance is yet to happen so the nation is in a period much like the High Middle Ages. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:48:35 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 12:54 PM, you wrote: >Pointing out various events in Stefans life and >trying to convince everybody that one version is true or false is >pointless. Completely right. That's where I think this is going off track. Instead of giving different viewpoints, it looks like its become attempts to prove each other wrong. I'm not wrong on my view of Stefan and if that bothers someone, I'm sorry :) Oh, someone mentioned they didn't know what changes the Karameikos: The Kingdom of Adventure box set had. If you have Gazetteer 1, its almost exactly the same except for an updated timeline. Some people didn't even age! :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:19:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan > >> > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". > >> Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to interpret this as they choose. << It doesn't make it sound like he "supports Stefan's rule" at all, though. To be droll about it, one could say that fostering deception supports Hosadus' rule in Sind et al, and perhaps thus, similarly, fostering bitterness supports Stefan's rule in Karameikos. But I wouldn't make that as a serious claim. 8-)~ However, I do tend to doubt that people who are bitter against you are your best supporters in most cases. Though I guess one takes what one can get, as circumstances demand. We could do a run-down of Traladaran characters, putting in one collumn those who look at Stefan with "less than admiration" (to be kind about it), in another those for whom Stefan doesn't matter one way or the other, and in a third those who are his fullsome supporters. And such lists might be indicative of how accurate the claim that the Traladarans are largely greatful to have Stefan around and have feelings of loyalty and love for him is. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:13:16 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will > > you say? > > In the end, it would depend on what sort of government is being created. If it > was still as good as or better than before in the final analysis. Well, perhaps you like being a *subject*, but I'd rather be a citizen in an inefficiently governed nation than a subject in a perfectly governed one... must be my fault, clearly. > It's questionable from a modern perspective, and I think that is what you are > trying to appeal to in your argument. But it is not evil. It is also not > really bad from a mediaeval / byzantine / renaissance perspective (your choice). Which don't matter at all. We are judging it with our morals, not those of the middle age. > > It is clear that the Traladarans didn't invite Stefan. It is not a grey > > area. What may have happened to them without him, it is not Stefan's > > businness. > > Again, this is modern perspective. But, even from a modern perspective he > wouldn't be considered evil. It would: it is undue interference, the negation of freedom. As for the modern perspective, see the other answers. > I was talking about the problem of humanoids in the interior. Communities were > small or non-existent before where they thrive now, and I think an argument can > be made that their growth was assisted by the greater protection and > organisation brought by Stefan as Duke. Which one? Threshold and Kelvin were already there, though smaller. > Before you get on my case about my statement about small communities, remember > that the town of Kelvin was founded by Kelvin near the The fishermen village was already there. goblin-infested Dymrak For this matter, look at the goblin forces in B10. Risible. > Forest, and Threshold was just a village when Sherlane arrived. I But it was there. > in Gaz 1 that every few years there's a special concerted effort with Ylaruam > to unite against the humanoids (don't remember what kind, I think orcs) in the > mountains that border their two countries. Which aren't inhabited by human. (Northeastern Traladara wasn't occupied before Stefan, and the Keep is the only addition). > It's certainly implied that without that level of action, organisation, and > cooperation, the humanoids of the area would be a big, big threat. As I previously said, they were not for the last millennium. > > >>> This did not > > >>> happen at the expense of peaceful races, like the elves or the > > gnomes, > > >> > > >> and > > >> > > >> Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the > > Hin > > >> too. > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. This is obviously a misrepresentation of my position. > > > > Sorry, but is what you said, literally > > No, it is literally what I did not say. I didn't mention the Traladarans or > the Hin at all. You are implying that by not including them in a list of > neighbouring (and by that I mean nearby and basically within the borders of > what is now Karameikos) and peaceful races, that I must be saying those > unlisted races are warlike. /That/ is a misrepresentation of my position. No, I'm just saying that they were damaged by Stefan's action, but that you are willing to ignore this fact. > Try this on: I didn't mention Traladarans because I was talking about > their /neighbours/. Also, I didn't consider the Hin neighbours in the sense > that I didn't think of them as nearby (as the gnomes and elves are, for > example). Well, your idea of nearby is fairly weird. > > > I was pointing out that Stefan didn't generally go around slaughtering > > and was > > > using still /other/ examples than the Traladarans. I was also > > pointing out > > > that Traladarans were not the only ones who benefited from Stefan > > being Duke. And I showed you that not only Stefan's subject did not benefit from his rule, but that he also damaged some of his neighbours, and that the gnomes did not get any advantage as well. > > > All of these things are indications of being a good ruler. If they were true. > > And I used the Hin, because you mentioned examples *outside* Karameikos: > > whatever Stefan may believe, no part of the population of Karameikos is > > composed by elves or gnomes, which have their own kingdoms (they don't > > pay taxes, and have their legal systems). > Outside the political framework, yes. But surrounded by their borders, > nonetheless. Is this true? No, since the borders of the territory actually controlled by Stefan do not include the Callarii (Stefan has no control over the mountain regions, except for the road to Selenica). As for the gnomesit is explicitely said that Dorfus ignores the humans. > I didn't mention the Hin, because they don't have any settlements > listed. The only thing I might apologise for on that account is marginalising > them by their non-mention, but let's try really hard not to get bogged down in > minutiae. You don't need to apologise: I was referring to the Hin of the Shires, not the few Hin families within Karameikos. > > How is he paying his elven mercenaries? > > You're saying the Elven Guard is somehow a disservice to the Traladarans? Their duties: to take care of the Duke's hunting ground. This surely has high impact over the Traladarans' life! > First off, it's not clear how the elves are compensated - it /could/ be their > service is effectively free; ROTFL!!! They are elves, not stupid! > I seem to recall it's part of the deal to keep > Callarii elves from being interfered with. There's no such deal (as Stefan's army would not be able to affect the elves anyway). > Secondly, even if they /are/ paid, There is no mention of them serving for free, really! > all other soldiers in Karameikos are paid, too, Traladaran, Thyatian, mixed or > elven. So what? Lastly, there is a clear arrangement that has been made with > the elves by Stefan and it seems to be good for the entire country. No, no. The elven guard is just a move by Stefan to gain some renown among the elves! (It's in the Gaz, if you don't believe me!) > I don't remember it saying what, if anything, the elves are paid, but you could > be right. It doesn't say even for the human. You will surely infer that all of Stefan's army is composed by people who had nothing better to do than serving such a great Duke for free! > > Aleksyev is acting against Stefan. Just he is trying the legal way, > > because he think he has no other solution. > > How, exactly, is he acting against Stefan. You'll have to refresh my memory. He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". > Also, is the result he is looking for Traladaran independence? Well, indipendence from who? He is just trying to insure that Traladara is inhabited by Traladarans. Since he can't obtain this by chasing the Thyatians, he tries to assimilate them. > I remember reading the precepts of the CoK, and thinking they were made to look > like a RL major religion, which I take to be good. I don't have it in front of > me to refer to, though. Well, I too remember something similar, but I just take that RL religion to be at least neutral. > At any rate, there are evil people in good institutions, and that doesn't make > the institution itself evil. If a large portion of the people is evil, the balance shifts. You can't have (absurd hypotesis) a good institution manned by an evil crew. > This is all tangential to the original discussion, also, so I'm willing to drop > it if you are. In fact, I'm willing to drop it even if you aren't. =;) Well, all of this points are marginal, but they aren't less worthy than the original one. It's just our interest that matters. > > a) Stefan establishes a form of government which is largely based on a > > person, instead of a code of law (ex.: his decisions aren't good > > examples of juridical expertise, he use direct judgement often, he sees > > the open court as an important tool, etc). > > He /does/ have a system of law, which is clear, and which he uses to make his > decisions. The open court is just a way to ensure that other branches of the > goverment have accountability and that there is always at least one way to make > a final appeal. IMO, that is very lawful. Actually, he doesn't consistently use his own system (read his description). His "final appeal" his not lawful. It *might* be good, but it is definitely not lawful, because it is essentially arbitrary (as it resolves in a sentence without trial). > > This shows he is not so > > Lawful (though many people will just tell me: "This doesn't prove he is > > not good", confusing the two points). Also, his actions in the WotI > > against Thyatis may be the result of a non-Lawful behaviour (though they > > may as well come from an Evil character). > > Well, I'll argue that, too. Killing is generally considered evil. However, > where the death sentence exists, executing a serial killer is not evil. It's > still killing, but the difference is that one is in the interests of the common > good. Well, most people here (where I'm physically) will argue that it is still evil. > I believe Stefan was trying to act in the interests of the common good of his > people. You can argue that, but I think that was the intent of the authors as > well. Karameikos as a country comes out better for his decisions. You're still commenting about goodness were I'm speaking about lawfulness, BTW. > I don't think Stefan thought the Machetos people would really come off that > bad, sorry. Also, Stefan /does/ care about the Traladarans, which (some of) > his followers mistreated. (cf. Davinos complaint.) > > Your last point really says that you don't like the foil used by the original > author, which is that Stefan is in the dark. Well, not much we can do about > that now. No. It's just that I find incoherences in the fact that he doesn't know, but everyone else does; that he is at the same time a brilliant and an irresolute and short-sighted ruler; etc. > > Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may > > find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. > > Not coincidence. Design. At a meta-level, the game designers wanted it that > way. Poor design, then. > In the campaign, the machinations and designs of the archetypical villain are > not supposed to be discovered by the ultimate good guy NPC, but by the PCs. Very realistic! > For game purposes, that means that as a DM you are supposed to come up with the > reasons why that is the case. That is, I'm to cover the blunders of the authors. Oh, well! BTW, just to clear the matter, I don't buy that the authors willingly designed such a mess: they were forced to make different versions cohexist (the Traladarans vs Thyatians issue with the all-good country in the basic/expert set), and to justify the persistence of the Black Eagle for thirty years (which is essentially impossible). > Farmers are not PCs of level 3-4 and generally none of them are mages, like in > a mixed party. Actually, those in B10 are. And I meant that even a small unit could easily beat the goblins. > I would put it more along the lines of "maintain stability." You choose > otherwise. Also, it's hardly surprising that the majority of his soldiers are > Traladaran, since that's the majority of the population. It isn't the majority. It is only that unit! > So, if Traladaran soldiers support him, how is this Traladaran oppression? As I said, he only uses Traladaran soldiers when he can pit them against the hated Thyatians. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:19:47 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Quoting "G.P. Agosta" : > > [snip] > > Traladaran nobles remaining? Sulescu, because it was far, and hard to > > dislodge. Dromilov, because was pacific and didn't try to oppose Stefan. > > No other Traladaran ruler (from that time, Rugalov wasn't a fief) that I > > can remember of. > > What about Magda of Marilenev? She's been stripped of most wealth. Essentially, she has no power other than personal prestige. > > > In any event, I do remember the Gaz saying something along the lines > > that the > > > people respect Stefan, if not necessarily Thyatians in general. > > > > Yet, they are ready to rebel... > > When they are incited and told lies, I guess so. They are also very willing to > not rebel when the facts come out. Hmm.... In Magda's case, there are no lies, and no easy solution. > It's an improvement over no protection, even if it is imperfect. Also, Kelvin > is a new, military presence since Stefan. Population is mostly Traladaran. > Hmm... You tell it was no protection, but you have no proof. > Patriarch-level priests killed in the rebellion? That's hard to believe, even > for you. Why? > Besides, one would think something like that would have been > mentioned. Moreover, if there were itinerant patriarchs, Zemiros Sulescu > probably wouldn't still be around, now would he? Why? Perhaps they weren't as prejudiced as you against the undead. > > > Proof? The highest level wizard as of 1000 A.C. is the school's > > > founder, and even Bargle (who didn't study there!) is lower level. > > > > IIRC, they are at the same level (15). > > My memory is different. I recall Bargle as 14th and the founder as 17th or > 18th. He had 7th level spells, I'm pretty sure. Your memory fails you. I have the Gaz right here. Teldon is 15 level, as Bargle. The glantrian ambassador is 18 level. > > > BTW: Sulescu is not and was not ruled by a wizard. Have another look. > > > > Zemiros Sulescu, Nosferatu Wizard, level 9... what else do I have to > > look at? > > Okay, I'll have to look back. I remember Zemiros in Gaz 1 as a fighter. Are > you using the same reference, or KKoA? I don't have K:KoA, only the Gaz. And I checked it. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:20:33 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon McCormick wrote: > > > There isn't any proof that Stefan's army is more effective than the > > Thyatian Legions. > > Actually the Legions didn't really affect the interior at all. > It's mentioned in Gaz 1 that apart from Marlinev, the rest of > the country was left pretty much alone.. Well, they arrived to Sulescu, at least. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:23:00 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Karameikos is medieval because... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is > > definitely not Middle Age > > (at least not in the Western European way). Also, > > beyond Darokin and > > Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. > > -- > > Doi you know what the rennasance is? It came about > mostly because of three things, the printing press > (education, and spread of ideas), weaponry(RW: guns, > Mystara: Magic), rediscovery of clasical ideas. > > Now if you have byzantine thyatis, that gets a lot > more magic, becomes more educated, and already has > classical ideas, I think you pretty much have a > rennasance society. Karameikos on the other hand is > quite low magic, low education, and lacking on > classical idea's. Thus medieval. Karameikos is > becomeing rennasance, but that will take time and in > the mean time stefan is there to point it to this > future. Things will change, but what stefan has done > will stay and move the country into a stronger, > better, future. Hey, I thought I was pretty clear: I was talking about Stefan not being a naive middle age man, but one who comes from a Renaissance nation! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:26:52 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Did Stefan know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > I didn't mean selling it to Stefan! I mean Thincol > > could have just sold > > a number of titles without giving indipendence to > > anyone. > > but the independance is why it costs so much, and it Exactly. The original statement was: if it wasn't for the indipendence giving it added worth, selling a title would not help. And why Stefan could not think that he was being given it for free. Therefore, he must have been aware of the fate of Machetos. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:34:01 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > >Also, remember that we are talking about Stefan, who > >is a Thyatian. Did you read this sentence before issuing unwanted history lessons? > Okay, short history lesson. The Middle Ages came after the fall of > Rome. It was a regression. Doh! I wouldn't have guessed. > Something like a sophisticated man becoming > king of a wilderness. > Sounds like Karameikos, doesn't it? Yes, it does: How a man may regress from the civilized Duke of Machetos to the barbaric Duke of Karameikos! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) >> Lady Marianita Lucia de Leon y Valdez, Ambassador from Glantri- Level 18 MU. Yep, you're right. << Btw, does anyone remember the name of that Traladaran guy who was recruited to teach at the KSoM in one of the PWAs (I think it was II)? Did they give a level for him? (I myself don't recall, and this is one of those times when I'm to lazy and indolent to check). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan Tim Haney wrote: >> That's where I think this is going off track. Instead of giving different viewpoints, it looks like its become attempts to prove each other wrong. << That's true. Your remarks (aptly) remind me of an old "Calvin and Hobbes" strip, where Calvin has been given an asignment to take a position and argue it, and he says to Hobbes "What's to argue about? I'm always right and everyone else is always wrong!" In this, folks are right for whatever works in their campaigns. Still, hasn't (and should it?) stoped anyone, on either side, from sharing their opinions and their reasons for holding them (I, myself, think giving reasons is good. Others may disagree.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:33:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Heh, after reading all the comments on Stefan's alignment, I've come to a new conclusion. All Thyatians are evil. I've suspected as much but nice to see so many support that view since it seems impossible for a man to leave the empire without carrying the taint of evil Thyatians are known for :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:12:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Actually, alignments *are* based on 20th century > moral values for a > simple reason: alignments are absolute (at least in > their definition; You appear to know nothing about 20th century theory, (at least the latter stuff) because if you did you would know that nothing is absolute and EVERYTHING is subjective, especally definitions. The only way we know what a tree is is because it is not a airplane, or computer, or ...etc... It's a binary oposition. But binary opositions are not absolute. Example: is a tree that has just been cut down alive or dead? (I don't want you to answer because if you do we will be getting way off topic) Your's is therefore a subjective opinion of what 20th century morals are. Thus you cannot be the absolute judge of alignment (neither can I). Alignments are a way that the author can tell you what he thought the character *would* be like when approched or encountered. now there is a bia's on how they will react to a person, but regardless of what the person has to say this will be their attitude towards them. If a trusted thyatianian lord came and explained that the black egale needed to be removed and presented a good case, stefan is more likely to act then is a traldarian indepentantance properganderist said I think the black eagle is bad. Then that same properganderist tries to kill stefan and stefan kills him I am not surprized, but if he wasn't against stefan or his government and said it I think the likely outcome would be the appearance of lieing to the duke as the black eagle covers it up and probally some punishment for lieing if there is no evidence. People fugure after a while it does no good and stop. The PC's are more likely to be in the lord position and that is why they can uncover his treachery to stefan. In both cases stefan is fair and even handed bassed on the evidence in front of him. Writing is inferior to conversation because it is always more incomplete, thus we have to interpret based on the *intent* of the author what canon means. > the application was often flawed, especially in > OD&D, but that's another > issue). And since they are absolute, they must be > based on our own, > otherwise we would risk defining as "Evil" something > we would otherwise > deem good, and vice versa. Saying canon is flawed cause you think it is, when other's think it isn't make's your beliefs non-canon. If everyone thinks it is flawed that is different, but on the stefan issue that is not the case. canon says he is lawful (p.s. does the good come from KKoA? which I don't have or want) and also says he is "fair and even handed" (PWA). Being fair and even handed I would attribute to being a good trait. These are direct quotes on stefan, not his actions. I therfore have to say that any action of stefan's *must* be interpreted with this as part of his personallity or that interpretation is non-canon (that doesn't make it bad or boring, just non-canon and not consistant). Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:21:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1DB779.DFB257D4@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 05:34 PM, you wrote: > > >Also, remember that we are talking about Stefan, who > > >is a Thyatian. > >Did you read this sentence before issuing unwanted history lessons? And how, pray tell, does Darokin figure into Stefan's character? Oblivious I've been talking about the nations and the king is the nation. > > Okay, short history lesson. The Middle Ages came after the fall of > > Rome. It was a regression. > >Doh! I wouldn't have guessed. Want some more? Thyatis hasn't fallen yet so it hasn't entered a Renaissance period! So how can Stefan be from a Renaissance nation if Thyatis is Byzantine? He's a Middle Age modeled king. Geez, I can understand confusion but why go out of your way to paint someone's comment in such a light? > > Something like a sophisticated man becoming > > king of a wilderness. > > Sounds like Karameikos, doesn't it? > >Yes, it does: How a man may regress from the civilized Duke of Machetos >to the barbaric Duke of Karameikos! Same way dweebs are born I guess, they just really want it badly ;p -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 05:34 PM, you wrote: >In this, folks are right for whatever works in their campaigns. >Still, hasn't (and should it?) stoped anyone, on either side, from sharing >their opinions and their reasons for holding them (I, myself, think giving >reasons is good. Others may disagree.) At worse, the discussion borders on comparing sizes of anatomy. But I've gotten a few ideas out of this evil Stefan view (no, not my view changing but just some ideas to really screw the Traladarans and Thyatians up :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:26:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D83D2.12535858@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Agathokles : > Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, G.P. Agosta wrote: > > > > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > > > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what > > > will you say? > > > > > If I'm a medieval peasant, I have no power over my government anyway, > > so I say 'Yes, m'lord'. > > That wasn't the case I was proposing to you. You're intentionally > distorting my point, shifting the its weight from whether a certain form > of government would be enjoyable for a medieval peasant to whether that > medieval peasant had any power over it, which has nothing to do with the > question. > Also, even if you are a medieval peasant, you have some power over your > government, as long as there is little or no central authority. Smaller > communities in Traladara were essentially indipendent before Stefan's > arrival. > > > The Traladarans had already lost their independence long before Stefan > > showed up, and the majority of them had not had any political power > > anyway, because they were already ruled by a hereditary noble class, > > This does not matter. Actually, I think the point is quite pithy: In cases where there was already some hereditary rule, the effective change to the Traladaran peasant was hardly noticeable. I think that's what's being alluded to. > The point was that Stefan's "improvements" to > Traladara cannot be used as point in his defence, since no one had asked > him to do them. Just because someone doesn't /ask/ you to help you does not make it a bad thing when they do. > The fact that every other autocratic government has the > same legitimacy as Stefan's does not change the matter, as autocratic > governments are illegitimate, as the power is not held by the people. > And before you tell me, the fact that most/all medieval governement were > not based on popular consensus does not help as well: it simply means > that they were not legitimate. You seem to say that any form of monarchy is illegitimate. Well, that's a completely different argument. I disagree with that as well, but I'm not sure I really care about the argument. Perhaps you are saying that because a monarchy is presumably illegitimate, that any monarch is automatically unlawful and/or non-good? > which > > includes people like vampires (see Sulescu). > > Sulescu *is* an effective ruler, even though he is listed as Neutral. I agree. > He > protects his people, and he has no evil cousins to unleash over his > subjects. There are no evil action which can be ascribed to Zemiros > Sulescu, AFAIK. Not directly, no. In fact, I believe the text specifically states he should not be thought of as evil. Still, he is listed as Neutral and the region seems to live in some fear. (No one goes out after dark.) I can't be sure, but I think they say there is practically no crime there, either. Perhaps he feeds on any criminals (when there are any)? I guess it isn't important. > Your willingness to consider Stefan better than Sulescu > only shows that you are prejudiced against nosferatus and in favour of > Stefan. I suspect you are right. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:31:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". << Here I have to disagree with you. He's not trying to have the Traladaran population "Thyatianized" and he's not trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized" - he's trying to destroy the heritage of both so that he can create "New Soviet -er, Karameikan Man" - a people wholly submissive and subservient to the Great Helmsman (in nearby Thyatis and Darokin, people have at least some say in how they are governed. In Karameikos, this nation founded by a man from Thyatis, who had participated in its governance and thus knew of a system where citizens had such input, there is none allowed), whos cultures become "Kultur" (that is, actual culture, traditions, and customs are swept away and replaced with erzats ones created by, and in the service of, the Great Helmsman), and who's spiritual faith is being transmogrified in a variety of ways into a Cult of Personality around the ruler (from the state-sponsored church named after the Great Helmsman to the antics of the Cult of Ha! ! lav). As you pointed out earlier, he also pits the Thyatians against the Traladarans in many ways, so as to foster the idea that they must look to the "linchpin" (Stefan) for guidance to arbitrate these things. We can see how the "ruthless men" who were granted authority and title by Stefan, swearing loyalty to him and then being given a free hand to steal lands from the Traladarans fit into this, too. I don't see these developments as either "Thyatianizing" or "Traladarizing" - or as the kind acts of a benevolent ruler. They are intended to entrench his power, and sweep away the memory of anything else, coopting where possible but destroying and distorting where not. Now, one can describe why a ruler might decide to do such things, to see them in his interest, but I doubt we can see these things as the actions of a good regime. Indeed, that's one reason why I see the comparison to Hosadus's rule and the regime of Hule as an apt one, as I suspect they do these kinds of things as well (though, tellingly, the "evil Master of Hule" hasn't seemingly done this in Sind. Perhaps he just hasn't gotten around to it yet. But where Stefan killed and displaced the previous authorities, and has been sponsoring all sorts of other societal changes, it's also telling that the Master left most of Sind's institutions in place. So, who *is* the evil one?) >> No. It's just that I find incoherences in the fact that he doesn't know, but everyone else does; that he is at the same time a brilliant and an irresolute and short-sighted ruler; etc. << Depending upon which is most convenient to exculpate him, yes. That's why we can tell we're dealing with a form of propaganda here - on the one hand, the claim is he's a brilliant visionary, on the other hand he's short-sighted and we need to accept his (many and ongoing) mistakes as just the fumbling of a good hearted but not competent person, he is responsible for the growth of Kelvin and other good things, but shares no responsibilty for anything that goes wrong, etc. That's a Propaganda Model. Stefan: Detering Democracy. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:34:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos >> You appear to know nothing about 20th century theory, (at least the latter stuff) because if you did you would know that nothing is absolute and EVERYTHING is subjective, especally definitions. << Well, you appear to know only part of it, and a rather distorted version of it. Some modern sophists hold and promote these views, but they are far from the only philosophical position expounded in the 20th century. Next time you lecture someone on what they don't know about 20th century theory, make sure you know the whole story yourself. I could direct you to several books if you'd like to learn. Contact me privately. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan Tim Haney wrote: > Heh, after reading all the comments on Stefan's alignment, I've come to anew conclusion. All Thyatians are evil. I've suspected as much but nice to see so many support that view since it seems impossible for a man to leave the empire without carrying the taint of evil Thyatians are known for << Nice to see you've fully joined with your compatriots in completely distorting what other people say just because you don't agree with their opinions. The point is that Stefan managed to take wicked aspects of Thyatis with him, while leaving most of its best behind. Now, I can see why you don't like that truth, but it happens to be the case. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:38:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> But I've gotten a few ideas out of this evil Stefan view (no, not my view changing but just some ideas to really screw the Traladarans and Thyatians up << Well, see, that's all good then. Doesn't matter to me how people use ideas, or what ideas they get (though of course they really *should* get mine. . .but then we all think that others should see our points). I'm glad you got some useful campaign ideas. I hope everyone has. I have some ideas now for some Karameikan characters, minstrels and bards mainly. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> Thyatis hasn't fallen yet so it hasn't entered a Renaissance period! << Not true; Thyatis is a renaissance-era civilization, per "canon". Check out the PWAs. If you need the appropriate page numbers, I can provide them. Thyatis is, in essence, a version of a ByzantinoromanHRE nation as it would be if it had survived that long (remember also that some Byzantine refugee scholars who fled to Italy during the advance of the Turks were partially - not solely or exclusively, but partially and certainly influentially - responsible for the Renaissance in the first place). >> Geez, I can understand confusion but why go out of your way to paint someone's comment in such a light? << I think Agathokles thought you were aware that in "canon" Thyatis is considered a Renaissance level civilization. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he thought. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:49:24 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1) This is supposedly a medievel-style kingdom where familial > ties are paramount for royalty. The mere thought that a > member of the royal family could be "evil" would be nearly > impossible to believe, much less be discussed openly. Even > today you see people sticking up for relatives and friends > for all kinds of nefarious deeds. > This pains me to do this, but unfortunately I have to agree with the Karameikos-phobes on the subject of Von Hendricks. Stefan must know that Von Hendriks is evil. The evidence to the contrary is too overhelming. First off, you have two full battalions of Karameikan troops charged with protecting Karameikos from the Black Baron (both the Hells Jailers and the Fury in the West - see Gaz 1 p.27 for canonical reference). Then, of course, you have Luln which is a town created by refugees from the Black Eagle Barony, headed up by Mistress Sascia, someone who has the Dukes ear, and of couse last but not least Yolanda of Luln, who will rubbish the Black Eagle Barony to anyone who will listen. The only reason that I can come up with that the Black Baron is still in power, is simply that he has recruited an army (quite possibly humanoids) that is large enough to pose a serious threat to the Karameikan forces (this is what has happened in my campaign). Stefan would then think twice about attacking Von Hendricks and siezing the Black Barony by force, as it would leave Karameikos virtually unprotected against any other hostile force. > 2) If you go by Earth-style politics and history, people in a > medievel setting would be much more trusting. Sophisticated > deception and misdirection was extremely rare. > Ah, but unfortunately we are talking about Mystara here. Every nation in the Known World (in other words any of the Gaz series) is a hotbed of political intrigue, double dealing, and secret alliances. Sophisticated deception and misdirection are common-place. Thats why I like Mystara so much. :) > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. It is not much of > a stretch to assume that Stefan would give his cousin every > chance to explain any charges made against The Black Eagle. > After all, unless the source of such charges is completely > unimpeachable who would Stefan be more likely to believe? > Stefan may even suspect, in his heart-of-hearts that the charges > are true. So what? Family is family, and blood is thinker than > water... Maybe slightly more intelligent (if you're a stat demon), but nowhere near as wise. His personality is full of brash actions, and ill thought out plans. As for "family being family" argument, family might be family, but when family is very likely to cost you the throne then said family member is very quickly disowned. In the long run, Stefan would think of the good of himself first. All nation leaders do. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:59:45 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't think it > said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule stopped, but > it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. Er, no, those feelings are still there. Both Traladaran and Thyatians will come together if threatened by an outside force, and will proclaim to foreigners that they are Karamiekan, but in private, all those mistrusts and general discontent are still there. Its going to take many generations before that subsides. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:03:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Not you, perhaps (though you have been very > dismissive of opinions you don't share yourself, so > I'm not exactly inclined to do otherwise either) but > you're not the only person who's arguing against the > position of myself and others. Chris, for example, > has claimed several times that what I and others are > saying isn't in canon - even when our position is > explicitly based upon what is said in canon and we > have directly referenced it on numerous occasions. I have never said it is not based on canon or derived from it. Mearly it is non-canon. This is based on your interpretation of your listed facts from canon. I do not dispute them, mearly your conclutions. To me your conclutions and arguements are not concistant. It *explicitly* stats stefan is lawful in numerous sorces, but you say he could be chaotic. How is me calling that statment non-canon and offering a way to reconcile canon with canon, rater then just disregarding the bit's that we don't like. The fact that it *explicitly* states in numerous canon sorces (PWA was the one I most recently saw) that stefan is lawful and fair and even handed, while you interpret the events in canon as him being unfair, and plain nasty at times for his good and the good of his cronies, thus not even handed. Therefore your interpretations of his intent is NON-CANON. > Now, you've decried us, but not him. That's fair to > an extent - you're on his side in this and vice > versa. But my point is I think it would be better to > not lecture just those you disagree with on these > things. I'll lecture anyone who does not understand and thinks they do, when I believe I can see a problem with their arguement. You think you do, thus I keep writing back to you. If you think stefan *should* be evil or chaotic, that is fine, but it is non-canon even if only because canon says he is lawful, fair and even handed with no interpretation of his actions. > >> What I /do/ say is that you (and others) seem to > want to attribute evil intent to a character that is > clearly intended by the authors to be good. << > > When the authors say Stefan "sells out his long time > allies" and "betrays" his homeland, I don't think > they are saying "interpret this as a good act". Not good for thyatis, but that does not make it evil. lets see if you had to pick between one person dieing or two, which would a good person pick given no other choice. This is stefan's situation. He picks the one person. Thus it is a good action, that is seen as bad, because the other option is *worse* The lesser of two evils. > >> Look, not everyone has their references with them > 24 hrs a day. You seem to say that we require > chapter and verse listings for an argument to be > reasonable and worth listening to. << > Nope, not at all. What I do expect, though, is that > folks not claim that I and those arguing the same > position are ignoring canon, when we're the ones > referencing it. But only the parts that surport your arguement. canon is holistic not microcosmic. >Frankly, I find that offensive. Its > fine if folks don't have it with them or don't care > to look things up (On occasions I've said I don't > have time or am to lazy to look up X, but still > given my opinion. So I wouldn't object to people > giving their opinion if they weren't able to look > things up. But I do object to them claiming that I'm > ignoring canon when I quote it and they do not). You > haven't been the worst offender on this score, but > you've hardly been the soul of civil discourse, > either. > > >> Apparently, canon says his alignment is LG, so > the burden of proof for the first part lies on you > to show otherwise. << > > Which we've done. Then why are we still argueing, obviously your case is not that strong. > Now, if I wanted to be petty, I might say, for > example in your earlier post on this topic you stood > ready to defend to the utmost the position that > Stefan is Lawful Neutral, because you thought canon > said that, but now you stand ready to defend to the > end the proposition that Stefan is Lawful Good. His > behavior hasn't been changed in the meantime. The changing in the definition of the alignments was the swing vote. LN with good tendancies, or LG. Nothing to do with behaviour. > My entire position is based on the belief that we're > allowed to apply our own judgement in our evaluation > of canon events and behavior - not just somewhat > blindly accept a label put on something ("He's > Lawful Neutral because it says so - oh, wait, he's > Lawful Good because it says that." - his behavior, > motivations, inclinations, decisions, etc. have > remained unchanged. IMO, that's how one's character > {or, if you prefer the AD&D version, "alignment") is > to be evaluated. Interperet with regard to canon. This is not what you are doing because you simply disregard possibly the key statements about his personallity. (see above) > > As for some of the arguments put forward to > exculpate him, they've been reaches at best which > would convince no jury, if "evidence beyond > reasonable doubt" is what's wanted, the > preponderance of such actual evidence has been with > us, not with his admirers. And, frankly, the burden > is actually on *you* when "canon" says he's a > betrayer who sells out his allies and homeland to see above > prove that he isn't such a sort of person. your evidence is hardly convincing, "lets just read this paragraph on how the traldarians suffered at the hands of the thytainian invaders", oh that proves a lot about stefan, well at least thats what your arguement says. I dissagree, thus it is not worth me quoting indivitual references like these when thay are not actually on topic because my (our?) case revoves around the fact that your interpretation is flawed because it disregards some key statments that can give intent and insted gives intent based on outcome. An outcome is amoral, and thus your arguement is flawed here. > Similarly, "he made a mistake" isn't a good enough > excuse if he fails to correct it for over thirty > five years true, but there are plausable (to me) reasons for his inaction which you disregard as far fetched (mostly based on modern understandings of society) >- regarding people acting under his > authority. That's pretty telling. Now, on the other > hand also, "your side" has somewhat distorted what > "our side's" point has been - on numerous occasions > we've left open the possibility that he's just. . > .not cut out for the responsibilities of rulership, > to put it kindly. fine, but thats something I don't care about. He *is* in the rulership position and thats it as far as I am concerned, what do you sergest we do? > But the polemical claim by "your > side" has been that we insist upon characterizing > him as evil (nope - I've left open the possibility > that he's neut! Then we can stop argueing, because that is the most plausable to both understandings and leaves room to move for both sides. (given he *is* lawful and anything else is *automaticallly* non-canon). Happy yet? :) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:10:58 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If he is as bad as people say he is and that he dosent act as a LG aligned > NPC should and if it's demanstreated then the real fault is with TSR for not > geting the setting right. If K;KoA is that bad then it's TSR's fault and > thats the diredction that this should go for it's them that wrote the > "cannon" and screwed up on how thay portryed Stafan. Actually, I don't think that TSR has screwed up. When you take into account that alignment is a broad basis for a characters actions, I think that Stefan could easily be considered a Lawful Good character. What Stefan does, is more often than not, in the interests of his nation, and he is trying to constantly strive to improve the lifes and lifestyles of his people. He does have failures, true, but then again so does everyone. If he must do no wrong whatsoever, ever, to earn the alignment of Lawful Good, then I got feeling that you would never find a character that could be considered to be that alignment. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:24:47 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now, some of Stefan's apologists have claimed, without evidence, that > Stefan left Thyatis to get away from this sort of thing (and given this > as a reason why Stefan "couldn't" free his own slaves and bring them > with him, because he wanted to "cut his ties" to Bad Thyatis) - except > here we see that HE brings these bad things with him. . .and then is > indifferent to them, and the consiquences of his apointments (as one of > Stefan's *admirers* said, Stefan isn't concerned about the taking care > of the Traladarans, he's solely concerned with ruling them). Can someone actually point me to the section where it says Stefan owned slaves??? Given his attitudes towards slavery I find it would be an extremely odd asssumption to make without proof. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:27:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Evil Genius wrote: > >> You appear to know nothing about 20th century > theory, (at least the latter stuff) because if you > did you would know that nothing is absolute and > EVERYTHING is subjective, especally definitions. << > > Well, you appear to know only part of it, and a > rather distorted version of it. Some modern sophists > hold and promote these views, but they are far from > the only philosophical position expounded in the > 20th century. So please do tell me how this is wrong. I do know there is the theroy of the intuitive, but that is an I am right arguement and thus cannot be argued. It is therefore subjective depending on the person. My point is that the developments in theory in the latter part of the century swept away the earlyer arguements. I don't argue intuition is wrong, or inapropriate. just subjective. Without useing the techniques of later theorists the arguement does not stand a good chance. Could you please sum up the theory you would prononce. I promise I won't draw it out. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:31:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > The point is that Stefan managed to take wicked > aspects of Thyatis with him, while leaving most of > its best behind. Now, I can see why you don't like > that truth, but it happens to be the case. Take is the wrong word I think. they followed him weather he would have prefered them to or not, because they saw opitunity. this would be more "accurate" I think. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:00:43 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 06:36 PM, Evil Genius wrote: >Tim Haney wrote: > > Heh, after reading all the comments on Stefan's alignment, I've come to > anew conclusion. All Thyatians are evil. I've suspected as much but > nice to see so many support that view since it seems impossible for a man > to leave the empire without carrying the taint of evil Thyatians are > known for << > >Nice to see you've fully joined with your compatriots in completely >distorting what other people say just because you don't agree with their >opinions. Not at all! It was a jest. All of you are picking apart every single word in the Gazetteer to prove an opinion of what you believe about Stefan. And guess what. The Gazetteer is just a game product that doesn't adhere to logic to start with. I think even you have pointed out to inconsistencies. One fact is Stefan doesn't suspect his family members of evil. Now you can argue that Stefan really does know what's going on but the fact remains the Gazetteer says he doesn't see the evil in his own family so you have to take that as a truth. You can twist it and read more into it but the plain truth is Stefan has no idea what Ludwig is doing and once he does, he's condemns him. Yet another truth is the existance of Luln and the very name Fort Doom. Given we know Stefan tours the kingdom yearly, surely he would have noticed a new village made up of refugees from Fort Doom. So, the Gazetteer isn't a reliable source for information of this sort and if it isn't reliable for one position, it isn't reliable for another. So the only thing left is how people choose to see it. And if people are going to argue over subjective viewpoints then its no more outlandish for me to conclude that Thyatis is an evil nation just because some Thyatians are evil. >The point is that Stefan managed to take wicked aspects of Thyatis with >him, while leaving most of its best behind. Now, I can see why you don't >like that truth, but it happens to be the case. See, I'm not challenging you viewpoint because it doesn't matter. There's nothing absolute for either of us to build on. Honestly, I bet you could argue that Stefan is a lawful and good ruler if you tried using that same Gazetteer you've condemn him with. And you could show that these wicked aspects of Thyatis that Stefan took with him are built into the core of the empire making it evil. But that's still a viewpoint without a foundation. So, don't tell me I'm just choosing not to see the truth. I'm just choosing to see a different truth. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos >> So please do tell me how this is wrong. << I don't have time to school the untutored in philosophy on the list. As I said, if you want to learn, contact me privately and I'll give you some direction as to where to go and what to read. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Take is the wrong word I think. they followed him weather he would have prefered them to or not, << He gave them position and authority, they pledged themselves to him. He's responsible, like he is for Ludwig, for their presence and their power. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> I have never said it is not based on canon or derived from it. Mearly it is non-canon. << Not true. >> To me your conclutions and arguements are not concistant. << Mine are very consistant. It's others who have been inconsistant in their arguments in their efforts to support the contrary position. >> It *explicitly* stats stefan is lawful in numerous sorces, but you say he could be chaotic. << And it *explicitly* states what his behavior is, and even on one bold occasion calls it exactly what it is (betrayal, selling out of long time allies). Now, I can look at a pattern of behavior and make a sound judgement about what it is, rather than being blinded by a (mis-applied) label. >> If you think stefan *should* be evil or chaotic, << I see that Stefan *behaves* that way, in canon. >> But only the parts that surport your arguement. << Actually, that's what you guys do - you simply ignore those parts, or find some excuse to dismiss them, which don't fit into the label you want to apply to Stefan. >> Then why are we still argueing, obviously your case is not that strong. << Now you're just projecting the weaknesses of your own case upon me. Sad. Since this is all you have to offer, I think I can disregard the rest. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> So, don't tell me I'm just choosing not to see the truth. I'm just choosing to see a different truth. << Well, that's interesting and to a certain degree apt. But, on the other hand, those who've been arguing against me have been saying that my position is wrong (most interestingly, one of those people is someone who has stated his belief that everything is subjective, which just shows the flaws of the subjectivist position I suppose, but that's another topic, unrelated to what this discussion list is all about). Sure, you can see Stefan your way - no big deal. Now you do point to something true also: positions in this discussion are very intransigent at this point, you missed the begining of this discussion, but it hadn't nessissarily started this way. We are where we are now, but in no small part due to the insistance by those who see Stefan as good that the other view is wrong. And yes, I don't give them an inch at this point either. Like they say, it's a push me/pull you universe. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:04:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Mystara�s Map Navigator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Pretty sure, but it seems to be working just fine now :) >As usual, good work. I especially liked that you'd added the village >Kevar. Will you be changing the Bengarian Hermitage to Bensarian >Hermitage? > >H�vard > When I first made the map I put it as Bensarian Hermitage without noticing (sometimes your mind work in strange ways) Then, as I saw it written as Bengarian Hermitage in a map from WotI I "corrected" it to Bengarian. I�ll correct it again soon, but is that confusing or what? ;) Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:28:58 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 06:43 PM, you wrote: >Thyatis is, in essence, a version of a ByzantinoromanHRE nation as it >would be if it had survived that long (remember also that some Byzantine >refugee scholars who fled to Italy during the advance of the Turks were >partially - not solely or exclusively, but partially and certainly >influentially - responsible for the Renaissance in the first place). I still disagree. Those scholars you mentioned helped spark the Renaissance. They may have come from a more advanced culture, but that culture wasn't undergoing a renaissance. Thyatian culture resembles the end of the Roman Empire not the Byzantine Empire. But if Thyatis would completely fall then recreate itself (in a Byzantine model) then that would be a renaissance. Part of the trouble with Thyatis is it may be technologically advanced but the way it revitalizes its culture is to absorb other cultures. Even after the sinking of Alphatia, it still turned to outside sources to bulid itself up. A renaissance is a rediscovery. And Thyatis isn't near to recognizing the mistakes of its past to have to rediscover its cultural past. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:00:04 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 08:32 PM, you wrote: >But, on the other hand, those who've been arguing against me have been >saying that my position is wrong (most interestingly, one of those people >is someone who has stated his belief that everything is subjective, which >just shows the flaws of the subjectivist position I suppose, but that's >another topic, unrelated to what this discussion list is all about). Sure, >you can see Stefan your way - no big deal. I don't think anyone can say "You are absolutely wrong blah blah blah" because of those points I mentioned before. I left this list before for those exact reasons. I dislike strongly people that regurgitate the Gazetteers in such a way to silence someone or prove themselves. They would quote sentence after sentence why an idea was just plain wrong even when the poster (which many times was me) had said up front this was breaking away from canon a bit. Some even suggest that people with ideas that went against the Gazetteers should leave the list. Heck, there was a time people would have a complete melt down when someone mentioned using Mystara with AD&D. So, I'm not saying throw the Gazetteers away. Just everyone should stop trying to beat everyone to death with them. I don't think it makes friends to well. Heck, I get a little hot under to collar when my own posts are twisted in such a way to make an opposite point than what they were intended as. This list creates some nasty behavior at times. I've a hard time seeing some parties bounce ideas off each other after some of the tones being throw about. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:06:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >> To me your conclutions and arguements are not > concistant. << > > Mine are very consistant. It's others who have been > inconsistant in their arguments in their efforts to > support the contrary position. On one hand you say we must look at canon, on the other you say it is wrong and aply's itself poorly. Then you tell me that it is not all subjective and thus we cannot both be right from different point's of veiw, which I was what that e-mail was about. Stefan can be seen as both good and evil depending on your stance. See tim's e-mail too. I chose to say that the applied label is acurate and therefore he is good. That has *always* been the arguement. How canon is interpreted in my opinion should be with respect to the writers intentions (another one from the theory books). My assertion is that the writers saw stefan as good even if they put a lot of bad things in the history and setting. > >> It *explicitly* stats stefan is lawful in > numerous > sorces, but you say he could be chaotic. << > > And it *explicitly* states what his behavior is, Which is not his personallity, belief's, desires or intentions. It is amoral, so what does it have to do with it *if* alignment and good/evil is the arguement? Try to see the position that actions are amoral, not if I am wrong in it yet, but is this a pivitol dissagrement which is the impression I get from you. I know you think, repeated examples of bad things during his rule= pattern = evidence stefan is evil/chaotic/whatever. But I see it as error, and flaws of character in stefan, which are things *stated* in canon. > and > even on one bold occasion calls it exactly what it > is (betrayal, selling out of long time allies). Now, > I can look at a pattern of behavior and make a sound > judgement about what it is, rather than being > blinded by a (mis-applied) label. Just refute my other post about this betral and look at the other multitude of posibilities why it is called betral. (it is not an expected action) And you *state* that the describtion of stefan is mis-applied and thus you dissagree with canon. I see this as proof you think canon is wrong. I argue if someone thinks it is right and can be when concidering all infomation their interpretation is a *better* interpretation of canon. Are you argueing it is not? (and if so I'll remember for later) > >> If you think stefan *should* be evil or chaotic, > << > > I see that Stefan *behaves* that way, in canon. can appear to yes. No arguement. > >> But only the parts that surport your arguement. > << > > Actually, that's what you guys do - you simply > ignore those parts, or find some excuse to dismiss > them, which don't fit into the label you want to > apply to Stefan. I have not ignored anything and alternate explanations of canon that are consistant with canon I do not see as inherantly flawed. You on the other hand say things in canon are wrong. > >> Then why are we still argueing, obviously your > case is > not that strong. << > > Now you're just projecting the weaknesses of your > own case upon me. Sad. ohh big man. I was not saying my case was strong, just bothare relitivly weak. No need to take offence. > Since this is all you have to offer, I think I can > disregard the rest. That is what you keep doing, even with parts of canon. I don't have any way to argue them, so I won't. Please there are two answers to this, yes or no. Is stefan generally lawful, fair and even handed? Just answer yes or no. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:08:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D5A41.B79EE8C9@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:56 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: [snip] > > You are obviously unwilling to see that the Traladarans benefited at > all. I've > > given examples of how they have, above, but that may not be enough. If > you do > > not want to be convinced it is impossible to do so, but I think there > is enough > > in canon to support me. > > >I think there is enough in canon to support my argument that Traladarans >have suffered. I'm not disputing that. They suffered when there was a trasition of government, and during the disarray there were Thyatian opportunists that victimized Traladarans. I just don't think they /continue/ to suffer, and I think that the Traladarans overall finally benefitted from Stefan's rule. > > > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". > > > > Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right > now. Let's > > say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine > > Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil > or unfit. > > >He doesn't openly. Nothing is said about what he does secretly, or what >he silently accepts and encourages. I believe Andrew refuted this for me. Nikelnevich does not conspire or use his sway to damage the royal family. > > > He wishes to see the return of Traladara's Golden Age, but no mention is > > > made of Stefan. Indeed, he considers members of the Cult of Halav (who > > > preach that Stefan will bring about the Golden Age) quite mad. > > > > That's fine. Stefan thinks they're mad, too. > > >Does he? As far as I know his opinions on the CoH are never made clear >in any sources. Well, in the description of the Cult of Halav, it says he frustrates them in their attempts to convince him he's Halav. [snip] > > Look, why don't you quit with the attempts at IRL parallels; you're digging > > yourself into an indefensible position. > > >I know that you'd like me to shut up because my comparisons hurt the >image of your idol, but I'm not going to. What applies to one person >also applies to another. I don't want you to shut up, I just want you to not make inflammatory comparisons. You later said you didn't intend to draw parallels to Hitler and I accept that, but I was not the only person to think that was what you were doing. Also, Stefan is not my idol. My stance is simply that it is reasonable to keep with the spirit of the authors' intent w.r.t. Stefan. > > That's a good question; although I'm sure you meant it rhetorically, it > comes > > out quite ironic. No-one suffers directly under Stefan's rule, and his > chief > > vassals (Barons Kelvin and Threshold) are also good rulers. The sole > exception > > is the Black Baron. > > >So now you consider an ambitious, scheming man who has no regard for >anyone else's wellbeing, least of all Traladarans', a "good ruler"? You beg the question here. I do not believe Stefan is without regard for others' well-being. I think he does care about the Traladarans. > > Moreover, there /are/ still some Traladaran nobles. Some people seem > to forget > > that. > > >None of them are in any significant positions of power - more like on >the fringes. That's true, but they weren't all systematically ousted - that was my point. > > > I would also compare Stefan to the Kingpriest of Istar. Good intentions, > > > but poor execution which ultimately leads to downfall. > > > > Is this from DragonLance? I'm not familiar with the setting, so I can't > > comment on this allusion, but I suspect I would disagree again. > > >Yes, it is from Dragonlance, and I'm not terribly familiar with the >setting myself. The Kingpriest of Istar was a Lawful Good cleric who was >convinced that his religion and his vision were the only right ones, and >mercilessly persecuted anyone who disagreed. His rule, like Stefan's, >also gave rise to various nasty personages. Some might even argue that >he didn't know about their nastiness. Okay. This still doesn't show that Stefan was not LG, but I see you are drawing a parallel to a LG ruler that was not a very effective ruler. I think the jury is still out on whether Stefan was a good ruler, but I know where I stand. > > > People *can* do some horrible things while having good intentions. > > > > I'm still waiting for an example. The last one didn't convince me. > > >Well, I guess you have weird views on morals then. Actually, my views on morals are pretty darned mainstream. >I'll give you another example though, to be convinced that your reaction >is indeed consistent. This time it'll be theoretical. >Suppose a foreign power conquered a country and imposed an oppressive >regime upon it. A rebel leader fights this regime, and in the process >kills or otherwise harms innocent commoners who are citizens of that >foreign power. He doesn't see anything wrong with it though, because >they are all "hated oppressors", and he sees his intentions as good, >freeing his country from foreign tyranny. Would you classify him as >good? No, I would classify his morals as neutral (perhaps with some good tendencies). The key point is that he doesn't see anything wrong with killing and harming innocents in his quest. Now, if he felt bad about it and endeavoured to prevent such harm, then I would change my tune. He gets a neutral (not evil) rating because he is still working for what he considers the common good, but ends up willingly sacrificing some of the common good by harming innocents. If he ended up willingly completely abandoning the common good, he would get an evil rating. I can't comment on his ethics component (Law vs. Chaos) because that would depend on how exactly he conducted his rebellion, whether he kept his word, kept to a certain code of conduct, etc. I hope that helps. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:11:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D5A41.B79EE8C9@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:56 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Uh ... sure. Look, I did not bring up Hitler, you did. (Anyone who doubts > > that can look back at the archives.) If you were /not/ trying to draw a > > parallel between Hitler and Stefan, why did you bring him up? > > > > If you /are/ trying to draw a parallel, I am showing that it is clearly > wrong > > to do so. > > >I am not trying to draw a parallel. I am merely saying that all the >things that in your mind make Stefan "good" can be (and have been) done >by extremely evil men as well. > > > Good heavens! You are really a piece of work. You clearly /are/ trying to > > draw a parallel to Hitler! > > >See above. I've thought about it, and I think I should take this opportunity to apologise for calling you piece of work. It was ungentlemanly of me. I was goaded with the reference of Hitler, but I don't think that's a fair excuse. Sorry. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:20:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1DB29C.5A9E2A37@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:13 PM 11/23/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: > >No, no. The elven guard is just a move by Stefan to gain some renown >among the elves! (It's in the Gaz, if you don't believe me!) Where is this mentioned? The only mentions of the Elvenguard I see are: p.5 (under "Elves"): "Duke Stefan has a guard unit entirely composed of Callarii elves, which has given many elves the chance to meet him, and the Callarii are favorably disposed toward the Duke." p. 26 (under "2nd Division: Elite Guard Units"): "The Elvenguard is charged with the responsibility of maintaining order in the Duke's Park and in forested areas around Specularum; they are also charged with keeping order within the Kelven-area elven woods whenever the local elves need help." That's pretty much it- some info on the BR ratings and a mention of where the Elvenguard stays. Nothing about whether they are paid (I assume they probably are, myself) nor why the guard was formed. Also, note that (according to the Blue Box Expert Set), the Elvenguard is responsible for the safety and transport of the Karameikan mint in Threshold (and the materials they get from the gnomes). Which gives them an important part in the Karameikan economy, which would certainly benefit the Traladarans and the Thyatians (though admittedly it's not as if someone else couldn't do it- but perhaps Stefan feels the Elvenguard with their magical and physical prowess, are the best opportunity for protecting such an important commodity.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:21:21 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001122222718.01ef3980@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -At 10:29 PM 11/22/00 -0800, Derek Adam wrote: >At 07:50 PM 11/22/00 -0800, Andrew Theisen wrote: >>At 02:23 PM 11/22/00 -0800, Beau Yarbrough wrote: >> >> I think it's worth noting that some people -- sometimes including >>myself-- are inclined to give Stefan a break as the Traladaran partisans aren't >>particularly attractive human beings. (Of course, Desmond Kelvin's no saint, >>either.) >> >>I'm with you on this one. Assassinations- even just attempted ones- aren't >>exactly the sign of a benevolent personality/ies. > >I'm not familiar with the reference you allude to. Is that from the >Almanacs, or WotI? Gaz1, p.13-14: "The powerful Traladaran families in Specularum saw the political change as an opportunity to reestablish Traladaran independence." (Doesn't sound like they were too pleased with Thyatian rule, btw.) "If they could kill the Duke when he was most vulnerable, perhaps they could then erect a spirited enough defense to make it economically unfeasable for the cost-conscious Thyatians to conquer them again. "However, the Marilenev clan prematurely led an armed revolt against the Duke and was decisively beaten by the Duke and the garrison. Most of the Marilenev men died in the attack. Naturally, from that point on the Duke had his eyes on the other powerful families, especially the Radu and Torenescu clans." (First strike at the Duke was by the Traladarans- perhaps not entirely inexcusably. In any case, Stefan would have been a fool not to have put it down, and claims that he brutally massacred the Marilenev clan seem to ignore the culpability and responsibility of those involved- the Marilenevs.) "A second attempt was made on the Duke, an assault by hooded assassins in his very bedchamber, but Stefan awakened in time to seize his weapons and slay his attackers... "The Traladaran clans, offended by the Duke's stubborn refusal to accept assassination and overthrow, slowly and resentfully swore loyalty to him." Sounds to me like the Traladarans made the transition to Stefan's rule a lot more difficult than it could have been, and must certainly accept responsibility for certain damages wrought thereby (the near-extinction of the Marilenev clan, resentment and ill-will between the ruling factions and the Duke). In any case, the point was to show that no one- Thyatian or Traladaran- is entirely innocent and fluffy-bunny like in this situation. IMO (and others have pointed this out, too) it's the moral ambiguity and "real" nature of human conflict and differing perspectives that makes Karameikos one of the more interesting nations on Mystara. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:27:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:19 PM 11/23/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote: >> >>> > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". >> >>> Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to interpret this as they choose. << > >It doesn't make it sound like he "supports Stefan's rule" at all, though. Let's put the entire quote in here, so that what I said isn't misrepresented: --- Begin quote --- At 07:56 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > >> > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". >> >> Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right now. Let's >> say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine >> Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil or unfit. >> >He doesn't openly. Nothing is said about what he does secretly, or what >he silently accepts and encourages. Gaz 1, pg 51 (from Aleksyev Nikelnevich's writeup- the patriarch of the CoT): "He still carries bitterness against the Duke for the death of his parents, but does not conspire against the man or use his political sway to damage the royal family." Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to interpret this as they choose. --- End Quote --- As you can see, the bit about "DM information" is in reference to the contention that the Patriarch might secretly plot against Stefan, not in direct reference to him supporting Stefan's rule. I make no contentions in the above that he does so, nor do I feel that he actively supports it. His description makes it fairly clear (to me) that he just accepts it. Just refuting suggestions that he might be working against Stefan in secret, using canon references. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:33:16 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <009701c055b0$64beba00$1ed0893e@philjones> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:49 AM 11/24/00 -0000, Phillip Jones wrote: >The only reason that I can come up with that the Black Baron is still in power, is >simply that he has recruited an army (quite possibly humanoids) that is large >enough to pose a serious threat to the Karameikan forces (this is what has >happened in my campaign). Stefan would then think twice about attacking Von >Hendricks and siezing the Black Barony by force, as it would leave Karameikos >virtually unprotected against any other hostile force. >From Gaz 1, p 64 ("The Black Eagle Banner" scenario): "The Black Eagle is supported by ravening hordes of monsters, making that barony equal to the Duke's forces..." Canon backs you up on this point. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> On one hand you say we must look at canon, on the other you say it is wrong and aply's itself poorly. << I've never said it applys itself poorly. If you insist on mischaracterising my statements, at least have the good sense to do it when I'm not around to correct you. >> Then you tell me that it is not all subjective and thus we cannot both be right from different point's of veiw, which I was what that e-mail was about. << Not true. I said the subjectivist philosophy/theory was wrong. Now, you are in a pickle, however - you claim that you believe everything is subjective, but while loudly proclaiming your insistance that Stefan is good and any claim to the contrary is incorrect. Which means you're applying an objective standard. Now, I can believe in a variety of possibilities while not being subjective: I've layed out broadly three possibilile for Stefan that I think are possible, based on the fact that there *is* limited knowlege and a variety of ways to see and judge his behavior: 1) He's actively evil and promoting these things; 2) He's indifferent on such questions, self-absorbed with his own agenda and that's why he doesn't care one way or another or take action to stop these things; 3) He's a mental deficient/insensate who means well but is not capable of ruling others. There is also a possiblity, albiet a infinitesmal one, that I might be wrong - I might be mistaken on something, due to limited knowlege. But I can only be judged "wrong" because there is a correct answer. You're the subjectivistt who insists on the one hand that everything is subjective, while on the other hand arguing that I am wrong (which, as I said in another post, shows the flaws in the subjectivist position, since when the rubber hits the road even the people who claim to adhere to that theory do not believe in it - otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that I'm incorrect and Stefan is Good and Lawful.) >> I chose to say that the applied label is acurate and therefore he is good. That has *always* been the arguement. << See above. >> My assertion is that the writers saw stefan as good even if they put a lot of bad things in the history and setting. << When they say he's "betraying" his homeland and friend and "selling out his longtime allies", I don't think they're saying that he's good. >> Which is not his personallity, belief's, desires or intentions. << How do you know that? His character is expressed in his actions and in his inactions - his choices of what he actually does. Vague inner feelings and inclinations that don't express themselves in actual behavior aren't very strong. He may, in a general sense, wish well and want to do good, but when it comes to taking a stand, when it comes to an actual decision, well - he generally takes the easy way out, or the self-serving way out, or action and inaction that leads directly to harms done to others. Many people as a sort of vague, general inclination just wish they could do well, do good, but "not this time". Their actual behavior, not what they would wish to be, is what counts. Just as with you: you wish to be a subjectivist, you'd like to adhere to that theory (for whatever reason), but when push comes to shove and something you hold a stake in is on the line, you cannot hold it - I.E. you argue that it *is* the case that Stefan is Lawful Good and any opinion to the contrary is wrong. Now, I expect you'll try to use sophistry to wriggle out of this, but, again, we've seen it in your behavior - which is what counts. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:46:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> I still disagree. << You can, but you're wrong in this case; since my main point is Thyatis, the point remains that according to TSR, Thyatis is a renaissance-era civilization. >> Thyatian culture resembles the end of the Roman Empire not the Byzantine Empire. << Actually, it doesn't resemble the end of the Roman Empire very much, either. It has attributes of the Republic, attributes of the early Empire (the Principate), attributes of Byzantium, attributes of the Midieval German Empire (AKA the "Holy Roman Empire"), but doesn't really resemble post-Diocletianic Rome very much at all. It even in some ways resembles the Italian City-States (Republics of Venice and Genoa in some ways). Again, check the PWAs. If you don't want to bother to look it up, that's fine, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong as you keep insisting. >> But if Thyatis would completely fall then recreate itself (in a Byzantine model) << Another incorrect statement, since Rome never "completely fell" and Byzantium arise. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> I dislike strongly people that regurgitate the Gazetteers in such a way to silence someone or prove themselves. << Well, that's fine, but then I don't know why you've firmly aligned yourself with those who claim that I'm wrong and their right simply because canon lists Stefan as Lawful Good. There's almost always a sort of double-standard in these things, where folks "strongly dislike" thus and such behavior when done by people they disagree with, but think "heh, touche', good point, syke!" when the same behavior is engaged in by people they agree with. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:39:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <20001124040626.15255.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, if we have to choose Bush or Gore, I guess my choice would be... oops, wrong discussion list. At 11/23/00 10:06 PM, you wrote: >My assertion is that the writers saw stefan as >good even if they put a lot of bad things in the >history and setting. I think I'd have to agree with Chris on this. He was Lawful in Basic D&D (which they kept confusing with good) then became Lawful Good in AD&D so clearly the designers meant to portray Stefan as good. After reading over the alignments in 3E, I still think Lawful Neutral fits him better but I imagine he'll keep the Lawful Good alignment though I'd modify it a little to Lawful Good with a neutral leanings. So, that would mean, in general, anything in his background that suggests an alignment other than Lawful should be cast into a better light and probably give it a good spin. I've done things to help with that like deciding the name Fort Doom is the name those that escaped from Ludwig called Halag. And any raids Ludwig organized were well disguised to keep from being connecting with the Baron if they were ever caught. Make them something like anti-Robin Hoods :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:57:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Let's put the entire quote in here, so that what I said isn't misrepresented: << Snipping is bad, I guess, so we'll have to wade through all the below to get to my point. Sorry if that inconveniences any reader, but I don't want to offend inadvertently. --- Begin quote --- At 07:56 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > >> > No, the Patriarch of CoT is not described as "supporting Stefan's rule". >> >> Alright, you don't believe that, and I can't check references right now. Let's >> say simply that the Patriarch of CoT does not openly or secretly undermine >> Stefan's rule, which would be his moral obligation if Stefan were evil or unfit. >> >He doesn't openly. Nothing is said about what he does secretly, or what he silently accepts and encourages. Gaz 1, pg 51 (from Aleksyev Nikelnevich's writeup- the patriarch of the CoT): "He still carries bitterness against the Duke for the death of his parents, but does not conspire against the man or use his political sway to damage the royal family." Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to interpret this as they choose. --- End Quote --- As you can see, the bit about "DM information" is in reference to the contention that the Patriarch might secretly plot against Stefan, not in direct reference to him supporting Stefan's rule. I make no contentions in the above that he does so, nor do I feel that he actively supports it. His description makes it fairly clear (to me) that he just accepts it. Just refuting suggestions that he might be working against Stefan in secret, using canon references. << The statement I was correcting was a claim made by someone to the effect that the Patriarch of the CoT is supportive of Stefan's rule. I'm not sure why you're seemingly bent out of shape that I didn't find anything in the quotes you made that indicated that the Patriarch of the CoT was supportive of Stefan's rule, but I guess you are. I still maintain, though, that if the Patriarch is described as feeling bitter towards Duke Stefan, but nothing is said that he is supportive of Stefan none the less (it only says that he doesn't engage in active anti-Stefan action), then that's a fair indication that it's not true that he's supportive of Stefan's rule. Period. That was my entire point in this case. Indeed, using the same canon quote that you made, it would not be a reach to say that the Patriarch would "not be displeased" to see the Karameikos clan gone. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:08:54 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Stefan the Lawful Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was wondering if anyone would be interested in giving their ideas how they would take some of the bad deeds that have been attributed to the king (especially those that see Stefan as evil or chaotic) and make them into non-evil actions. Nothing like Stefan's uncle stole Traladaran lands but since he was family, Stefan couldn't see it. Thoughts that adhere to canon as much as possible but add to it where its needed to polish away any blemishes. I've seen a few things I've overlooked about Karameikos and its king that I would have to adjust so thought I'd see if someone would do it for me :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:36:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> I think I'd have to agree with Chris on this. He was Lawful in Basic D&D (which they kept confusing with good) then became Lawful Good in AD&D so clearly the designers meant to portray Stefan as good. << Ok, but then the below follows, which I think of as fine. You yourself in a slightly earlier mail made a point about how you dislike the over-fetishization of aspects of canon by people; I think you can use your own judgement in evaluating canon after reading it all with one's own eye. Yours was, I gather: >> After reading over the alignments in 3E, I still think Lawful Neutral fits him better << Well, see, we don't differ that much, actually. At the begining of this discussion (before repeated encounters with my opponents helped "radicalize" my positions), I said that overall I saw him as Lawful Neutral (other actions he's made, decisions and motivations, are more at variance from that - as you pointed out in your "Lawful Stefan" post - and either have to be taken into consideration in how one views his character {my position}, or cast in a new/different way in order to "fix" the alignment/behavior discrepancy {your position - and I'm not saying it's an improper one, just it isn't my choice. As Agathokles pointed out in an earlier post, it's easier to just "fix" the alignment/behavior problem by assigning him another alignment. But no biggie}). >> I imagine he'll keep the Lawful Good alignment though I'd modify it a little to Lawful Good with a neutral leanings. << Did you know that TSR already came out with a quasi-official description of him in 3E terms? I think it's posted at Stan's site. If not, it's probably still up at the TSR site somewhere. Anyhow, some people (including many of the admirers of Stefan) had trouble with aspects of it (while I think the consensus was that overall it was a decent translation of him into 3E terms, there were places where people thought they made questionable decisions). Part of my overall point in some ways, actually ("canon" also says he's LG, but his actual portrayal isn't consistant with that. He might be better seen as LN, actually). >> I've done things to help with that like deciding the name Fort Doom is the name those that escaped from Ludwig called Halag. << Yah. The "official" name, designating Halag as Fort Doom officially by Ludwig, makes it kind of hard to believe that Stefan wouldn't look at a it and wonder. . .at least be a might bit curious. . .you know, if maybie, just maybie, these stories about his Cousin might deserve investigating. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:59:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 10:46 PM, you wrote: >If you don't want to bother to look it up, that's fine, but it doesn't >make you right and me wrong as you keep insisting. First of all, don't take every disagreement to be someone insisting you are wrong. But here's another disagreement. I did look through the Almanacs and I saw nothing to suggest Thyatis is in a state of cultural development which I hope we all can agree a renaissance is. Immediately after the fall of Alphatia, Thyatis turned to conquering which they have done most of their existence. No change there. The corrupt political system and gladiator arenas are another sign of cultural decay. Eusebius doesn't seem to be having much luck with fixing the wrongs of Thyatis even as late in the year of 1012AC. So, I'm going to have to ask you to post where I could find evidence Thyatis is in a renaissance because it still looks like Thyatis is stagnant no matter what the new emperor accomplishes. >Another incorrect statement, since Rome never "completely fell" and >Byzantium arise. I didn't say that. Rome's fall was participated with the move of the capital to Byzantium. So, Byzantium was founded before the fall. Therefore, I believe in order for Thyatis to become Byzantine, it would have to completely fall since I don't think they will be moving the capital of the empire in the same way. That "completely fell" belongs to Thyatis not Rome. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:30:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/23/00 10:49 PM, you wrote: >Well, that's fine, but then I don't know why you've firmly aligned >yourself with those who claim that I'm wrong and their right simply >because canon lists Stefan as Lawful Good. First I'm insisting your wrong when I disagree with you and now I'm firmly aligned with people simply because I think Stefan is a good king and that's what the designer wanted to convey. A little extreme, wouldn't you say? >There's almost always a sort of double-standard in these things, where >folks "strongly dislike" thus and such behavior when done by people they >disagree with, but think "heh, touche', good point, syke!" when the same >behavior is engaged in by people they agree with. One thing. Don't start telling me what I'm thinking. I really hate that. I did address those that are using the Gazetteers to beat someone in the head. I just didn't name any names. I figured everyone who was doing so would recognize I was talking about them in that statement. If you'll notice, I have tried to only respond to those who have responded to one of my posts unless someone makes a statement that I think is on target or completely off. I've tried to stay out of the Gazetteer-welding posts because I think both sides look silly throwing bible verses at each other. I've been trying to view this whole thing as a discussion and not a debate. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> I did look through the Almanacs and I saw nothing to suggest Thyatis is in a state of cultural development which I hope we all can agree a renaissance is. << PWA p. 94 defines what a Renaissance-level civilization is in Mystaran terms (we are talking about Mystara, right?) p.127 then lists what Thyatis is at (Renaissance). When people are talking about what level Mystaran civilizations are at (Darokin at Renaissance, Karameikos at Midieval, etc). that is what applies. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I apolgise to members of this list for the following because it is aimed at james. I sent it here cause that way people can read it if they care, but mostly so I can try in vain to explain to james some of my views on the matter and why I have them. To quote alan rickman "I hate it when people have to have it spelled out to them" Firstly james I would like to thank you for answering my final question in the last e-mail. *sarcasm* It was a simple request and it would allow us to begin to work out why we disagree in a more civilized manor. > I've never said it applys itself poorly. If you > insist on mischaracterising my statements, at least > have the good sense to do it when I'm not around to > correct you. by poorly I was rephrasing your acusation that Lawful was mis-applied in canon, which is what you said. To me, you saying it was mis-applied implies that it was not applied corectly and therefore a poor application. Is that unreasonable, yes or no? And I would rather paraphrase your statements when you are around because you can give me your opinion on my paraphrasing, because unlike the appearance that you project I am willing to understand other viewpoints. Answering the question refered to above would have helped start this process. > >> Then you tell me that it is not all subjective > and > thus we cannot both be right from different point's > of veiw, which I was what that e-mail was about. << > > Not true. I said the subjectivist philosophy/theory > was wrong. > Now, you are in a pickle, however - you claim that > you believe everything is subjective, but while > loudly proclaiming your insistance that Stefan is > good and any claim to the contrary is incorrect. > Which means you're applying an objective standard. if the the subjectivist philosophy/theory is wrong, then that inpliys the probability that there is a *right* answer. *if* there is a right answer then one of us can be right and not the other, or we could both be wrong. If there is no right answer because it is subjective, then we can both be *right* in our own ways, which is what I have been saying is possible. I do not claim that any contrary view is incorect. Stefan could easily be evil, or chaotic if you wanted him that way and I see that. I simply argue it is non-canon because your arguement seems to disregard canon. Canon is right, It is clear what canon says because we all understand the language. language is subjective because it depends on how you interpret it. However good=good. It is the same thing. Your good does not equil my good because they are different given our views are subjective. If you state the binary oposite of what it says then it is non-canon. Like the opposite of a lawful alignment is defined as chaotic, and so saying stefan is chaotic is non-canon. This is a textual arguement because it is not real. We cannot say that that man is good because we cannot define what good is, same with evil. However if canon states stefan is lawful, that is right. If we want to know canons facts and it states he is fair and even handed it is right, it is the same statement ie. good=good. These things only have meaning because we asscribe it to them. If we ascribe a different meaning to a word such as fair, then that is because of our subjective nature and the fact that we are finite/cannot know all. We can use legal type arguements of ditionary, context, and usage of words to attempt to better understand but this is not absolute. My arguement is against your clasification that lawful=chaotic in stefans case. This is a textual arguement. This is your arguement as I see it. I know what lawful is because it is not chaotic. Now if there is no difference I cannot use these words with any meaning. I may as well throw out alignments, which would change the game, and I like the game. Thus your use of evil is wrong only because we see it as the oposite of good, and the same for lawful/chaotic. wrong is a subjective word too. However, if you say stefan is chaotic, or generally unfair then this conflicts with the words used in canon and is in binary oposition. If you want to believe canon's lawful is your chaotic and thus alignments do not really say much then you can. But at least have the decency to say that rather then allude to that. I think most of this list will have an oposing subjective opinion and therefore in our opinion you are wrong (because that is the subjective definition we apply to it). > Now, I can believe in a variety of possibilities > while not being subjective: I've layed out broadly > three possibilile for Stefan that I think are > possible, based on the fact that there *is* limited > knowlege and a variety of ways to see and judge his > behavior: 1) He's actively evil and promoting these > things; 2) He's indifferent on such questions, > self-absorbed with his own agenda and that's why he > doesn't care one way or another or take action to > stop these things; 3) He's a mental > deficient/insensate who means well but is not > capable of ruling others. There is also a > possiblity, albiet a infinitesmal one, that I might > be wrong - I might be mistaken on something, due to > limited knowlege. But I can only be judged "wrong" > because there is a correct answer. The asertation that there is a correct answer is more a belief then an arguable proof. I do actually believe there is a correct answer for things, but just that all of our answers are subjective as we are finite and thus cannot have anything but a subjective viewpoint. This is even a socratic belief. I also believe that there are other posiblilities based on canon. You can be judged wrong but because we define wrong subjectively, not because it *is* wrong. > You're the subjectivistt who insists on the one hand > that everything is subjective, while on the other > hand arguing that I am wrong (which, as I said in > another post, shows the flaws in the subjectivist > position, excuse me. see above. And you accuse me of being un-informed. > since when the rubber hits the road even > the people who claim to adhere to that theory do not > believe in it - otherwise you wouldn't be arguing > that I'm incorrect and Stefan is Good and Lawful.) I believe there is a truth but while in this mortal coil we will never know it only approximate it. Thus I believe in subjectivity of everyone. Definitions are subjective particually because it is the individual that ascribes meaning to it. You are not neccecarally incorrect, just conflicting with canon in my opinion. See above and then tell me it you think stefan is chaotic or evil. (thus canon lawful = your chaotic, etc. which I define as non-canon (a subjective opinion, but one that I think others could agree with)) > >> I chose to say that the applied label is acurate > and therefore he is good. That has *always* been the > arguement. << > > See above. ditto. > >> My assertion is that the writers saw stefan as > good even if they put a lot of bad things in the > history and setting. << > > When they say he's "betraying" his homeland and > friend and "selling out his longtime allies", I > don't think they're saying that he's good. probally not good, but probally the lessor of two evils in my opinion. > >> Which is not his personallity, belief's, desires > or > intentions. << > > How do you know that? > His character is expressed in his actions and in his > inactions - his choices of what he actually does. Another fundamental dissaggreement. which others have agreed with me on. > Just as with you: you wish to be a subjectivist, > you'd like to adhere to that theory (for whatever > reason), but when push comes to shove and something > you hold a stake in is on the line, you cannot hold > it - I.E. you argue that it *is* the case that > Stefan is Lawful Good and any opinion to the > contrary is wrong. My arguement is clear but you refuse to see it, because you insist in ojectiveness and that your options are the most plasable, which I dissagree. > Now, I expect you'll try to use sophistry to wriggle > out of this, but, again, we've seen it in your > behavior - which is what counts. Just cause you seem to have a problem with it. :-) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> A little extreme, wouldn't you say? << Well, you have been a little extreme, though I guess no more than anyone else. >>>>There's almost always a sort of double-standard in these things, where folks "strongly dislike" thus and such behavior when done by people they disagree with, but think "heh, touche', good point, syke!" when the same behavior is engaged in by people they agree with. <<<< >> One thing. Don't start telling me what I'm thinking. I really hate that. << Are you mentioned in the comment? I was making an observation about what I've found to often be the case (I notice you decried such use of "canon" in a reply to one of the mails of someone you disagreed with, but not in a reply to a mail of someone taking your position - so that brought the observation. If it doesn't apply to you, fine, but I haven't seen that it doesn't. I'll appologize if it doesn't). >> If you'll notice, I have tried to only respond to those who have responded to one of my posts unless someone makes a statement that I think is on target or completely off. << Well, I do have to say that I haven't noticed the first thing, but possibly because of the second (because you have replied to other posts that weren't replies to your posts - and I had no way of knowing your inclination to respond mainly just to replies to your posts with a few exceptions, because of those exceptions, until you now told me). >> I've been trying to view this whole thing as a discussion and not a debate. << Well, to be truthful, I haven't really seen that either. From what I can tell, you've staked out a position and debated/counter-argued those you disagree with, same as the rest of us at this point (this thread topic did start out as more of a discussion, reaching this unfortunate status rather quickly though). I guess I just don't see that you're discussing Stefan and his actions and nature so much as asserting he's good and counter-arguing those who are asserting he isn't or might not be. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. Some certain people (well, ok, Chris) have claimed that they are following "the intent of the author" in their position. However, there are several things regarding that: By doing so, they are claiming that they know the author's intent better than those they disagree with do. They have staked out a position that seems to fit more with what they want the author's intent to be, however. This means they dismiss certain things written by the same author, either ignoring or diminishing such writings, so that what they claim the author's intent to be fits within what they want. Now, it's fine and acceptable to prefer one interpretation over another and use that in one's campaign (even if I think theirs is wrong and mine is right - but as I've said in other posts, we all think ours are preferable, and have reasons - I've given mine - for why we think so. It's a little much to push beyond that and claim we know the author's intent better than anyone who disagrees). As for author intent, the same author who wrote the Gaz. & described Stefan also wrote these things that run counter to the vision of Stefan as both competent and good. Certainly he knows what his intent was when he described Stefan as bringing in his wake various ruthless men and empowering them, as crushing the Traladaran ruling families authority (not just that of the rebellious Marilenev clan, with the "accidental" but useful deaths of its leading members - but the others pushed largely out of power and replaced by Stefan's men, including the ruthless ones), and when that same author described him as "selling out his longtime allies" and "betraying his homeland", certainly the author knew his intent - we can't, putting those "bad" things Stefan is described as responsible alongside with the "good" things Stefan is described as responsible for, we cannot say that the author intended to depict him as competent and good, or as competent but neutral, or as competent but evil, ! ! or as incompetent but good-intended. We can, however, look at what is described, and form a judgement not of the author's intent, but evaluate that and come to our own conclusions. Did the author "intend" to depict Stefan as very virtuous and very competent, but just blow it, and in a haze write things that ran counter to his own intentions? Who knows. Some claim they know (thus they excise, denigrate, and dismiss the parts that they think the author didn't intend to write but some how mistakenly put in anyhow). But I don't think we can know for sure, and it's a fools errand to try and claim we can. But, as I said, we *can* read what was written, and come to a conclusion based on our own judgement and weighing the breadth of the depiction - noting that the things that are presumptively at odds with a certain view of Stefan were put in - written by those same authors - and thus should inform our evaluation. IMO, those things lead to the conclusion that Stefan's character and record should be seen as mixed at best - and that many of his "good intentions" have failed to express themselves in good actions when push came to shove. The reason for that could be, as I've also said, character defect ("See no evil"), but that's at odds with his perceptiveness and decisiveness in other instances, and thus that position has its weakness (even Stefan's admirers have at several times said that this excuse stretches believability at best), or indifference ("neutrality"), he doesn't take action to prevent these evils because he doesn't, when push comes to shove, care one way or the other! ! (ok, he might "care" in some vague sense, but not to a degree to put himself out in rectifying these problems - other things are always given a higher priority. Things such as forming the nation in his own image), or active complicity ("Dark Stefan") - he fosters these things as a part of achieving his goals, as a means to a certain end (just as other "visionaries" who have desired to reshape societies have). Myself, I vacilate between the latter two, but generally am inclined to the "indifference" position (he has other priorities that take precidence over rectifying the evils his decisions & mistakes have created, he's not all that concerned with how his appointees behave, though he'd like them to be seen as good it's not a big deal so long as their misbehavior doesn't interfier with his personal vision/project). I think that's the easiest way to use all of his actions and explain how he can be competent but still have all these "ruthless men" as his sworn agents doing nasty things for a long period and not being spurred to correcting & rectifying that situation. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:29:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 12:45 AM, you wrote: > >> I did look through the Almanacs and I saw nothing to suggest Thyatis > is in a state of cultural development which I hope we all can agree a > renaissance is. << > >PWA p. 94 defines what a Renaissance-level civilization is in Mystaran >terms (we are talking about Mystara, right?) p.127 then lists what Thyatis >is at (Renaissance). P94 may be the wrong page but you're right that Thyatis is said to be Renaissance level. I don't think the description of the nation agrees with that (which is what I was reading) but then not the first time a stat disagrees with a description. I'll have to look for that definition but I'm I right in assuming that they mean Renaissance level in terms of what weapons are available? Or is this for the whole cultural description? -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:41:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> I apolgise to members of this list for the followingbecause it is aimed at james. << That's a bit disingenuous, since if you had meant to leave the list members out of it, you could have simply mailed it to me personally, rather than to the list as a whole. Indeed, I recomended you mail me privarely on two occasions. Pitty you didn't take me up on the offer. >> Firstly james I would like to thank you for answering my final question in the last e-mail. *sarcasm* It was a simple request and it would allow us to begin to work out why we disagree in a more civilized manor. << You make an insulting post, and then close it with some disingenuous expression of a desire for proceeding in a more civilized manor, please don't blame me if I don't see that as having any weight. When you'd like to start being more polite, then start off that way and I'll be more than happy to meet you half way. But I'm not going to read through several paragraphs of abuse closed with a "lets be nice now" and see that as sincere. >> To me, you saying it was mis-applied implies that it was not applied corectly and therefore a poor application. << What you mischaracterized was my entire position on the issue; had you taken the time to read all my posts, you'd notice that my position is much more nuanced than your crude mischaracterizations of it. >> if the the subjectivist philosophy/theory is wrong, << One other comment on this that I would be remiss to omit: in an earlier post in reply to Agathokles you "strongly implied" that the subjectivist theory constituted the entirety of 20th century philosophy and he (Agathokles) was ignorant if he didn't accept it. Now, first, not everyone is a philosopy student. Secondly, not every school of philosophy, 20th century or no, is subjectivist. 20th century philosophical theory is wide-ranging and diverse. There's only a little more than a month left in the century, I think that if you want to assert knowlege in the field of theory and philosophy you should take some of that time to familiarize yourself with some of the other theorists, even if you wind up disagreing with them. To dismiss them as you did isn't a Love of Knowlege - it's phillistinism. >> *if* there is a right answer then one of us can be right and not the other, or we could both be wrong. << That's true, at least. >> If there is no right answer because it is subjective, then we can both be *right* in our own ways, which is what I have been saying is possible. << No, read your own posts. Indeed, the discourse between us wouldn't have gotten nearly so heated if that had been what you were saying. What you have said is "you can do whatever in your campaign, but you're wrong, because canon is thus and such" - a claim that you're right (objectively) and I'm wrong, but can do it the wrong way if I want. That's not the same as an acceptance of both possibilities as valid ones. >> I simply argue it is non-canon because your arguement seems to disregard canon. << Actually, the converse is true. You've taken one part of canon and called it the "total intent" in effect, of the authors, while disregarding the parts that don't agree with your interpretation. I've looked at it all and explained why I think the "good" things Stefan has done do not obviate the "bad" things (again: Stefan built roads, but so do evil rulers, so that isn't a proof that Stefan is good. Similarly, cities prospered and grew under Stefan's rule, but they were growing beforehand, and again even wicked men have founded cities, so that's not a proof of goodness either. His appointments and general policies, however, show a pattern that is at odds with goodness as such, and more in line with the behavior of "neutral" and even "evil" characters in "canon" - and all these things are in canon, written by the authors of the whole. Now, you might come to a different conclusion, but again to say mine is wrong or ignoring canon isn't the case, since I've just used aspects of t! ! hat canon which some choose to ignore or explain away. Again, and I'll keep repeating it till it sinks in, it's "canon" and not I who describes Stefan as "selling out his longtime allies", "betraying" his homeland, apponting "ruthless men" to positions of authority, etc). I see his behavior, actions and inactions in canon, and evaluate them for what I think they are. To dispense with judgement is not the act of a true philosopher. > Now, I can believe in a variety of possibilities > while not being subjective: I've layed out broadly > three possibilile for Stefan that I think are > possible, based on the fact that there *is* limited > knowlege and a variety of ways to see and judge his > behavior: 1) He's actively evil and promoting these > things; 2) He's indifferent on such questions, > self-absorbed with his own agenda and that's why he > doesn't care one way or another or take action to > stop these things; 3) He's a mental > deficient/insensate who means well but is not > capable of ruling others. There is also a > possiblity, albiet a infinitesmal one, that I might > be wrong - I might be mistaken on something, due to > limited knowlege. But I can only be judged "wrong" > because there is a correct answer. The asertation that there is a correct answer is more a belief then an arguable proof. I do actually believe there is a correct answer for things, but just that all of our answers are subjective as we are finite and thus cannot have anything but a subjective viewpoint. This is even a socratic belief. I also believe that there are other posiblilities based on canon. You can be judged wrong but because we define wrong subjectively, not because it *is* wrong. > You're the subjectivistt who insists on the one hand > that everything is subjective, while on the other > hand arguing that I am wrong (which, as I said in > another post, shows the flaws in the subjectivist > position, excuse me. see above. And you accuse me of being un-informed. > since when the rubber hits the road even > the people who claim to adhere to that theory do not > believe in it - otherwise you wouldn't be arguing > that I'm incorrect and Stefan is Good and Lawful.) I believe there is a truth but while in this mortal coil we will never know it only approximate it. Thus I believe in subjectivity of everyone. Definitions are subjective particually because it is the individual that ascribes meaning to it. You are not neccecarally incorrect, just conflicting with canon in my opinion. See above and then tell me it you think stefan is chaotic or evil. (thus canon lawful = your chaotic, etc. which I define as non-canon (a subjective opinion, but one that I think others could agree with)) > >> I chose to say that the applied label is acurate > and therefore he is good. That has *always* been the > arguement. > See above. ditto. > >> My assertion is that the writers saw stefan as > good even if they put a lot of bad things in the > history and setting. > When they say he's "betraying" his homeland and > friend and "selling out his longtime allies", I > don't think they're saying that he's good. > His character is expressed in his actions and in his > inactions - his choices of what he actually does. >> Another fundamental dissaggreement. which others have agreed with me on. << And others have disagreed. Now, your position is that those who agree with you are right and those who don't are wrong and misguided, but that's everyone's position on points of dispute. >> My arguement is clear but you refuse to see it, << Actually, at various times your argument has been fairly muddled and confusing, and not to just me (I've usually been able to figure out what you're trying to say). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:47:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: >> Actually, alignments *are* based on 20th century >> moral values for a >> simple reason: alignments are absolute (at least in >> their definition; > > > You appear to know nothing about 20th century theory, > (at least the latter stuff) because if you did you > would know that nothing is absolute and EVERYTHING is > subjective, especally definitions. Hey, but do you read what I write before answering? It seems you don't, for I'm nowhere telling that alignments are absolutes because they are based on 20th century stuff, but exactly the opposite. > Alignments are a way that the author can tell you what > he thought the character *would* be like when > approched or encountered. What does this has to do with the definition of each alignment? Exactly nothing. > Writing is inferior to conversation because it is > always more incomplete, thus we have to interpret > based on the *intent* of the author what canon means. Ok. Your point is: it is clear that the author wanted to make Stefan an entirely good character, so we have to devise ways such that all of his actions are actually the result of a good behaviour. My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in Stefan's description and actions. At this point, there's little more to discuss. > I therfore have to > say that any action of stefan's *must* be interpreted > with this as part of his personallity This will unavoidably bring you to accept even the most absurd explanation of Stefan's actions without a blink... if it's good for you... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:51:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". << >> > > Here I have to disagree with you. He's not trying to have the Traladaran population "Thyatianized" Sorry, but the "he" here is Aleksyev Nikelnevitch :) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:55:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: >>> Thyatis hasn't fallen yet so it hasn't entered a Renaissance period! << >> > > Not true; Thyatis is a renaissance-era civilization, per "canon". Check out the PWAs. If you need the appropriate page numbers, I can provide them. > > Thyatis is, in essence, a version of a ByzantinoromanHRE nation as it would be if it had survived that long (remember also that some Byzantine refugee scholars who fled to Italy during the advance of the Turks were partially - not solely or exclusively, but partially and certainly influentially - responsible for the Renaissance in the first place). > > >>> Geez, I can understand confusion but why go out of your way to paint someone's comment in such a light? << >> > > I think Agathokles thought you were aware that in "canon" Thyatis is considered a Renaissance level civilization. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he thought. Yep. Also, I don't see why a civilization needs to fall in order to enter a Renaissance period (in the sense of getting Renaissance level technology and culture, before someone decides to offer a lesson on the ethimology of the word "renaissance"). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:04:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 11:13 PM 11/23/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: > >> No, no. The elven guard is just a move by Stefan to gain some renown >> among the elves! (It's in the Gaz, if you don't believe me!) > > > Where is this mentioned? The only mentions of the Elvenguard I see are: > > p.5 (under "Elves"): "Duke Stefan has a guard unit entirely composed of > Callarii elves, which has given many elves the chance to meet him, and the > Callarii are favorably disposed toward the Duke." Here, it says the Elvenguard have exactly this effect. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:33:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 12:53 AM, you wrote: >Well, you have been a little extreme, though I guess no more than anyone else. Well, I don't think I've ever accused anyone of insisting on proving me wrong or lumping anyone into a group with terms like compatriots. >Well, I do have to say that I haven't noticed the first thing, but >possibly because of the second (because you have replied to other posts >that weren't replies to your posts - and I had no way of knowing your >inclination to respond mainly just to replies to your posts with a few >exceptions, because of those exceptions, until you now told me). Okay, I made my first post on the subject of Stefan in response to one of Jen's which summed up my view of why I think Stefan was a good guy. Then a couple of posts about good men have slaves and some things I thought Stefan had brought to Karameikos to help support that view. The next few had to deal with who gets to write history and that no one viewpoint is completely right or wrong. Then my post about why I like Karameikos as a nation and what I thought Stefan would bring to the future. After that, I'm fairly sure most have been in answer to any of my previous posts except to Chris' about the designer's choice of alignment. >Well, to be truthful, I haven't really seen that either. From what I can >tell, you've staked out a position and debated/counter-argued those you >disagree with, same as the rest of us at this point (this thread topic did >start out as more of a discussion, reaching this unfortunate status rather >quickly though). I guess I just don't see that you're discussing Stefan >and his actions and nature so much as asserting he's good and >counter-arguing those who are asserting he isn't or might not be. http://209.67.104.4/scripts/wa.exe?S2=mystara-l&q=&s=&f=trhaney@worldnet.att.net This is the link to all the post I've made to the list. I think its fairly clear that any counter arguments concerned my own opinions which were being misunderstood for whatever reason or when I was accused of belonging to some club. In order to have a debate, one must believe the other side capable of changing the other's opinion. I don't believe I've attempted to change your opinion and I said early on that there wasn't much chance to change mine. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:31:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: <3A1D5AAD.36615EBE@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:58 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I gave examples in my last post of how things were better. I don't > think it > > said explicitly when the original discontent at the change in rule > stopped, but > > it is clear to me that it is gone by the time of Gaz 1. > > >When I read it, it seemed to me there's still a lot of discontent among >Traladarans. I guess you interpreted it as if they were all living >happily and prosperously, loving the Good Duke Stefan. No, just that the original, vociferous discontent at the change in rule did not live for 30+ years. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:40:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1D5BB9.D94B6E18@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:02 PM 11/23/00 +0200, you wrote: >Daniel Eustace wrote: > > > > evidence to back up whatever POV we want. Much of what has been argued, is > > done by assigning 20th century moral values to a 14-15th century fantasy > >I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on >20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just >throw away alignments altogether (as I've been tempted to do on numerous >occasions) and just say that Stefan did some good things and some bad >things. Well, I see a distinction between commonly-held 20th-century moral values and the application of the alignment system. There is more an attitude of moral-relativism in modern society, and I try to work from some kind of objective basis, as I tried to demonstrate in my previous post where I was asked to assign a moral alignment component to a theoretical rebel. For myself, I don't completely rely on alignments IMC, and instead require all of my players to fill out a survey of questions on moral questions on their character's behalf. That usually helps clear up confusion on the part of both the players and the DM. But, we digress from the original topic. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:42:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3A1D6DAB.1EF67AF5@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:19 PM 11/23/00 +0000, you wrote: >"Larry E. Lamb" wrote: > > > > If he is as bad as people say he is and that he dosent act as a LG aligned > > NPC should and if it's demanstreated then the real fault is with TSR > for not > > geting the setting right. If K;KoA is that bad then it's TSR's fault and > > thats the diredction that this should go for it's them that wrote the > > "cannon" and screwed up on how thay portryed Stafan. > >Exactly, though I would say that the problem is more in the abundance of >incoherencies than with a "misrepresentation" of good Stefan's actions. >That is, if the actions are not coherent with his alignment, correcting >the alignment is easier than correcting the actions. I still don't think his actions are /necessarily/ inconsistent with his alignment as listed. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:10:15 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:32 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: >Wizard's Shopper wrote: > > >> Good heavens! You are really a piece of work. << > >I'd just like to note for the record that those who have recently posted >offended at the tone of some messages seem to have no problem with such a >tone when it is taken by "their side" - only one such example being >referenced above. James is referring to me, and ... mea culpa. I was mildly offended by the apparent parallel drawn to Hitler (later clarified as no such thing, btw) and replied in a mildly offensive tone. No excuse, I know, and I have just apologised. >Faced with that, it's certainly not out of line to point out that some >people lack judgement or refuse to use it, or are engaging in sycophancy. >Now, I can certainly understand that certain folks hold themselves and >those they agree with to a lower standard of decorum than they expect from >others, but the truth is the tone has been mutual, though I for one don't >think the *tone* has gotten out of hand (I can certainly take it). Now, >some of the exculpatory inventions have, as well as the decrying of those >of us who point to canon examples as not doing so, especially when done by >those who's "case in defense of Stefan" is based upon inventions not so >rooted and not supported by examples. But that's another matter all together. Well, there are inventions, and then there are rationalizations. I think I fall to uses of the latter. =;) > >> When I read it, it seemed to me there's still a lot of discontent > among Traladarans. I guess you interpreted it as if they were all living > happily and prosperously, loving the Good Duke Stefan. << > >Yes, the image of the happy, frolicking Traladarans who are so greatful >Stefan came to rescue them from themselves is somewhat belied by their >actual situation. Well, happy and frolicking is hyperbole. I don't think life as a peasant was all roses before /or/ after Stefan came. And, I don't think Stefan came to "rescue them from themselves." Instead, he had the idea of uniting the country and combining that with some Thyatian elements to thereby create a synergy - a country finally greater than the sum of its parts. >I'd call it closer to sullen resignation to their lot, combined with a >sense of "this too shall pass" destiny. One must remember that the things >the Traladarans decry were brought in and exacerbated by Stefan - >especially all the pushy Thyatians taking the land and all the positions >of authority (Thyatian presence in Traladara was minimal before Stefan >came. The "canon" does not say that with the Thyatian invasion came many >ruthless men who literally stole land from the Traladarans - no, that came >in with Stefan. Similarly, the initial Thyatians hadn't shoved asside the >Church of Traladara - Thyatis itself being rather broad-minded when it >comes to religion - that, too, came in with Stefan and his "Church of Me". Heh. I like that. Church of Me. Still, it's just the religion of the state, he's not the head of the church. And, the church brought some heavy-weight clerical benefits to wilder interior. >Etc, etc. etc. Life in Traladara was improving steadily before Stefan's >arrival, I don't think anyone can aptly say he improved it more than it >otherwise would have, especially when balanced with the negative things he >brought with him - no Ludwig or Desmond II Kelvin or Alfric Oderby before >Stefan brought them in, etc). I think we disagree about whether the rate of improvement without Stefan vs. with Stefan would be the same. I would say that Stefan accelerated it. Yes, he brought some bad with the good, and that makes the setting interesting. My points are still: 1) His intentions were good, not evil. (NOTE: James argues for neutral morals, and I think he makes a fair argument. Given that Gaz 1 used OD&D alignments, we can argue that his revised alignment in AD&D products /could/ have been LN. Still, it's not completely unreasonable to keep it LG.) 2) His rule was competent given the information he is /supposed/ to have had. James and others have shown it's hard to swallow that was the case, but it was clearly the intent of the authors to make it that way. Their motivation may have been consistency with previous products. Whatever the case, I think that is the real source of this debate. People who James has called sycophants are really just people who want to preserve the cobbled-together background as originally described. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:37:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:50 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> All I was saying was that even people like Hitler and Milosevic had > some good intentions. BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU > GOOD!!! << > >Yes - this is a variant of the "ends justify the means" position; if you >mean well, how you achieve your intentions and whether they work out and >whether you learn from that and correct mistakes isn't considered to >matter. But it does matter. Sadly, though, too many people have come to >believe that if someone's aims are good - or, worse, if they and that >person simply *think* their aims are good, then that intention is all that >matters. > >Well, just about everyone thinks their ends are worthy ones and those who >disagree are wrongheaded. If everyone then thought that implimenting their >"vision" by any means nessissary was justified - well, the world we live >in is getting closer and closer to that with every passing year, and this >century has been repleat with people who thought their intentions and >goals were so worthy that it didn't matter how they achieved them >(graveyards are filled with their dead - usually unmarked ones). I agree with everything you have to say up to here. >Stefan has a "vision" which he would impose on a nation (shape and mold it >in his image) - he's indifferent to considerations asside from >implimenting his vision I think he has considerations aside from implementing his vision. I don't think he's completely indifferent. >(some here say it is a good vision, while others of us think it's dubious >at best, but irregardless we think that HOW it is implimented matters at >least as much as the intentions behind it). Its means of implimentation >have been dubious, especially since its single-minded pursuit has caused >Stefan to not pay attention to other matters (thus allowing despoilation, >murder, and the like to be committed by his agents, persons appointed to >positions of authority by him). Now, Stefan might be Neutral (he's >indifferent to these things), or evil (he's tacitly promoting these >things), but he isn't good (he isn't stepping in to stop these abuses, >which he brought with him and in effect caused through his apointments.) I don't think he deliberately and knowingly sacrifices the greater good with his actions. His inaction is attributable to lack of information. (Yes, yes, I know you don't buy it. But, there it is.) I think there's a case for neutral morals, because he did hear about Thyatian abuses (exaggerated, but still) when he first took rule. Still, reports of abuses mostly /were/ exaggerated and given to being ignored after several had been investigated. It is not inconceivable for him to have seen many of the original exaggerated complaints as the work of selfish partisans who don't work for the common good, anyway. From that perspective, he could still be considered good. That last paragraph was what I would definitely call a rationalisation. However, it is not inconsistent with canon, and for those who wish to see Stefan that way, I feel it is completely reasonable to do so. I will agree it is equally reasonable that someone could see him LN, though I don't hold that attitude myself, anymore. I still say calling him evil is against the spirit, fact and intent in canon. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:48:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:57 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: [snip] > >> First off, it's not clear how the elves are compensated - it /could/ > be their service is effectively free; I seem to recall it's part of the > deal to keep Callarii elves from being interfered with. << > >So your position is that he intimidates them into serving him or he will >somehow "interfere with" them No, I'm saying that I thought there was a such a deal. It could well be the Callarii approached Stefan when they saw the humans were finally getting organised around them, and realised that they could have a single contact point with which to get such a guarantee from a potentially lasting government. [snip] > >> He /does/ have a system of law, which is clear, and which he uses to > make his decisions. << > >So do elves, but that doesn't make them Lawful Good. It takes more than >laws to make one Lawful. Even neutral countries have laws (even Neutral >Evil ones for that matter). You're right. They have to be fair laws, applied as fairly as possible. I think the open court facilitates that, not preventing it as some seem to be saying. > >> The open court is just a way to ensure that other branches of the >goverment have accountability << > >Doesn't seem to work that way in practice ("accountability" has never been >applied to Ludwig, among others). Charges that stick have tom be there first, otherwise you have injustice. The problem is this villain (for poorly described reasons) never gets caught. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:58:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1D855D.A66A852D@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:00 PM 11/23/00 +0000, you wrote: >Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > > > > Most of the country was uninhabited monster infested wilderness when every > > country around Karameikos was fairly well settled and peaceful. This > > suggests that the Traladarans couldn't fight worth squat, and were > > incapable of properly dealing with the internal threats from the > > humanoids. > >Actually, by AC 1000 the situation is exactly the same: read the Gaz! Actually, I think the population of Traladarans in the interior has grown in the 30 years since Stefan took power. The humanoid threat is not gone and there are still significant tracts of wilderness, but some wilderness has been settled and protected long enough from the humanoids to allow it to thrive. That's not exactly the same. >Also, perhaps the Traladaran just avoided invading the humanoid lands >(hey, even the humanoids have the right to live). Could be. That would mean that the Traladarans were allowed to expand their effective territory as a result of Stefan's rule. >As far as I can >remember, there is little mention of unprovoked goblinoid attacks, >except when the goblinoids are payed by the Black Eagle or the Iron >Ring. I don't have the module Dymrak Dread, but I'm pretty sure that has something to do with goblin threats. =;) > > > Better roads and trade is not necessarily good in itself. It's not > > > indicated anywhere that Traladarans needed those things - they existed > > > perfectly well before them. > > > > People existed perfectly well before proper medicines too, but that > > doesn't mean they didn't benefit from them. > >The example is not applicable, because Traladarans payed a steep price >(higher taxes) for something which they never asked for, AFAIK. With >medicines, it is not the same. I think the point is that the infrastructure paid for by those taxes benefitted the Traladarans. They didn't ask for it, but the benefitted nonetheless. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:00:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1D8820.4788182A@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:12 PM 11/23/00 +0000, you wrote: >Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > > > > > I just want to point out that the whole idea of alignments is based on > > > 20th-century moral values. So if we don't apply those, we should just > > > > Not really. > >I don't see how a "not really" invalidates the statement. Does this mean >that alignments aren't based on 20th century moral values, just because >you tell so? In this case, it cannot work further than "IYO". > >Actually, alignments *are* based on 20th century moral values for a >simple reason: alignments are absolute (at least in their definition; >the application was often flawed, especially in OD&D, but that's another >issue). And since they are absolute, they must be based on our own, >otherwise we would risk defining as "Evil" something we would otherwise >deem good, and vice versa. I think your reasoning here is flawed. See James' (a.k.a. Evil Genius') earlier post about modern moral relativism vs. what good and evil really are. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:56:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:54 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> Still, I haven't said anyone was making up canon facts. << > >Not you, perhaps (though you have been very dismissive of opinions you >don't share yourself, so I'm not exactly inclined to do otherwise either) I'm not dismissive. I'm argumentative. =;) You've given and justified your position fairly well. I just don't think it's the /only/ justifiable position within canon. >but you're not the only person who's arguing against the position of >myself and others. Chris, for example, has claimed several times that what >I and others are saying isn't in canon - even when our position is >explicitly based upon what is said in canon and we have directly >referenced it on numerous occasions. Now, you've decried us, but not him. >That's fair to an extent - you're on his side in this and vice versa. But >my point is I think it would be better to not lecture just those you >disagree with on these things. A fair comment. It's true my "lecturing" so far has been strictly in posts where I was arguing for my position and against the contrary ones. > >> What I /do/ say is that you (and others) seem to want to attribute > evil intent to a character that is clearly intended by the authors to be > good. << > >When the authors say Stefan "sells out his long time allies" and "betrays" >his homeland, I don't think they are saying "interpret this as a good act". They don't necessarily need to. A good person forced into choosing between two undesirable options still has to choose. Stefan was faced with a tough choice, and he chose the action that he thought was best for the most people. From his POV any gesture he made against the Alphatians would likely be futile and only make his far weaker country a target, potentially getting many of his country's people killed or enslaved. Also, it would leave the country open to other foreign threats in the meantime, even if things somehow /miraculously/ go well abroad his people are likely to get screwed. OTOH, breaking the treaty with Thyatis keeps him neutral in the battle of the titans, and leaves his country less likely to get crushed. A good Stefan doubtless would have lost some sleep over it, but he would still make the same choice. [snip] > >> Apparently, canon says his alignment is LG, so the burden of proof for > the first part lies on you to show otherwise. << > >Which we've done. I disagree. So long as there are reasonable arguments against your position, the burden of proof remains. >Now, if I wanted to be petty, I might say, for example in your earlier >post on this topic you stood ready to defend to the utmost the position >that Stefan is Lawful Neutral, because you thought canon said that, but >now you stand ready to defend to the end the proposition that Stefan is >Lawful Good. His behavior hasn't been changed in the meantime. You are right that my position has evolved over the last couple of days. I still think the case for LN is reasonable. However, I've come to realise that LG is just as reasonable, and just as justifiable with canon. >My entire position is based on the belief that we're allowed to apply our >own judgement in our evaluation of canon events and behavior - not just >somewhat blindly accept a label put on something That's a reasonable position. But, I am saying it is not necessary to dismiss those labels. In fact, I'll go further and say that finding potential inconsistencies as you have with the listed alignments is not enough to say that they are wrong, so long as another reasonable explanation exists. > ("He's Lawful Neutral because it says so - oh, wait, he's Lawful Good > because it says that." - his behavior, motivations, inclinations, > decisions, etc. have remained unchanged. Actually, I would say his motivations are different by definition /if/ his alignment is different. Intention is the morality component. Also, I guess it's true that I am really defending his canon listed alignment. >IMO, that's how one's character {or, if you prefer the AD&D version, >"alignment") is to be evaluated. Noted. It's also a reasonable stance to take. Mine is similar, but differs in the nuances I stated above. >As for some of the arguments put forward to exculpate him, they've been >reaches at best which would convince no jury, if "evidence beyond >reasonable doubt" is what's wanted, the preponderance of such actual >evidence has been with us, not with his admirers. And, frankly, the burden >is actually on *you* when "canon" says he's a betrayer who sells out his >allies and homeland to prove that he isn't such a sort of person. See above. I don't think any of that is an extreme reach. >Similarly, "he made a mistake" isn't a good enough excuse if he fails to >correct it for over thirty five years - regarding people acting under his >authority. That's pretty telling. He has to know about it to act on it. I know you really hate the idea that he doesn't, and I don't like it much either, but that's what canon says. Feel free to abandon it, if you like, but you seem fond of canon. >Now, on the other hand also, "your side" has somewhat distorted what "our >side's" point has been - on numerous occasions we've left open the >possibility that he's just. . .not cut out for the responsibilities of >rulership, to put it kindly. I''ve replied and painted everyone with the same brush at times, it's true. I still think a case can be made that he's done a reasonable job given what he knows. >But the polemical claim by "your side" has been that we insist upon >characterizing him as evil Not you, but some definitely have. I apologise for those misattributions to you. >(nope - I've left open the possibility that he's neutral/indifferent, >which at times those arguing in the alternative have also argued, or come >very very close to arguing, and also the possibility that he's a nice man >who just isn't cut out for the job, but good thing Olivia's around to save >the day. An interesting notion, and potentially supportable with canon. I don't happen to espouse it, nor do I feel it's one of the necessary options for keeping canon consistent. >You then mischaracterise my position as insisting that he's evil, and then >go about knocking down that straw man. So with that in mind I take >criticisms that I'm "setting up straw men" with a grain of salt.) I apologised for this above. My straw men comment about was your use of the word sycophant. At best, it is hyperbole. At worst, it's a misrepresentation. > >> Sarcasm as a weapon. I like it. I should try that sometime. << > >You have, on numerous occasions. Not /that/ numerous. (I believe you are talking about my "piece of work" comment.) Besides, the comment above is really self-sardonic. >Your "I'm innocent" ploy is very innovative, however. Flatterer. =:-D > >> Still, establishing a new city on the edge of it (Kelvin) << > >Well, Stefan didn't actually do that. If you want to claim that he's not >responsible for the goings on at Fort Doom, then you can't simoultaniously >claim that he's responsible for creating Kelvin. Perhaps not, but it was his management decision to send Kelvin there. That was a sound decision, with good results for the country. Given what he knew of his cousin, sending him to the western border was also a sound decision. He thought he could trust him, and he needed someone he trusted to watch the border of the dangerous Malpheggi swamp, where strange monsters all-too-frequently appear and where there is more piracy. >Now, he's not responsible for the initial happenings at Fort Doom - but he >is responsible for letting them go on, and on, and on, and on, and on. >Similarly, I don't recall him clearing Kelvin - simply claiming credit for >him. It's a bit of a stretch for your position to be that Stefan gets >credit for the good things that happen in Traladara/Karameikos, or at >least gets to share the credit - but gets none of the blame for anything >that goes wrong. I think it's fair to give him credit for the good decisions he made. It's also for him to approve and promote the good he knows about and not be considered guilty of crimes he is unaware are being committed by one of his vassals. >As for the "civilizing reach" stuff, well Calimsham and the Shoon Imperium >fought beholders, built cities (including some impressive ones), etc. But >that didn't make them good people either, in the context of the other >goings on. So it's not dispositive proof of goodness that Stefan built >roads (Shoon Imperium did that, too) or that cities grew up in places like >Kelvin (Shoon Imperium founded cities also) during his reign. What I am putting forth as dispositive proof is that the Traladarans benefitted from these actions and he promoted them. >You want him, it seems, to be the font of all the good things [snip] Not *the* font of ALL good things. Just *a* font of SOME good things. That's not such a stretch, really. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:59:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan Destiny Comments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:01 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: [snip] >Gordon wrote: > > > > It's the way some of James posts have footnotes, references to page > > numbers in Gazetteers and occasional mentions of 1984 and Babylon 5 > > that I like :) > >It's been awhile, so: > >The scene: Thyatis City, AC 969, a young Duke Stefan Karameikos travels to >The City to seek out a Seer to confirm the destiny he feels within him. > >The Seer provides this. "Well, take this, for what little it will profit >you. As I look at you, Duke Karameikos, I see a great hand reaching out of >the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds--the sounds of >billions of people calling your name." > >Stefan: "My followers?" > >"Your victims." With that, the Seer departs. Funny! (For followers of B5, that is). But it /is/ kind of over-the-top. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:02:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:07 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: >Ranma Al'Thor wrote: > >> If I'm a medieval peasant, I have no power over my government anyway, > so I say 'Yes, m'lord'. << > >Which explains why Stefan left Thyatis - citizens expecting a voice in >government *definately* wasn't one of the aspects of his home Stefan >brought with him (ruthless guys, yes. Senate and Citizenship, no). No >Senate to curb his absolutist power. Just peons to push around. No wonder >he ended up closer to Alphatia in the end. Citizens with a real voice in government is a nice ideal but the Thyatian reality is completely different. The senators never change, and the Senate is a completely corrupt institution. If a LG person saw that, would they want it when they were setting up a system of government. Simply, no. > >> Your willingness to consider Stefan better than Sulescu only shows > that you are prejudiced against nosferatus and in favour of Stefan. << > >An excelent point made by Giamaolo. I somewhat agree, actually. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:58:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1DB29C.5A9E2A37@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:13 PM 11/23/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: >Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > It is! If someone comes to you telling that he will protect you and > > > improve your income, but that from now on you're his subject, what will > > > you say? > > > > In the end, it would depend on what sort of government is being > created. If it > > was still as good as or better than before in the final analysis. > >Well, perhaps you like being a *subject*, but I'd rather be a citizen in >an inefficiently governed nation than a subject in a perfectly governed >one... must be my fault, clearly. Clearly. I would personally choose to live in a perfectly governed monarchy than a corrupt republic. A perfectly governed monarchy IMO would care more and do more for its subjects than a corrupt and self-serving republic. I should mention that I /actually/ live in a constitutional monarchy, so I'm both a subject /and/ a citizen. =;) [snip] > > > It is clear that the Traladarans didn't invite Stefan. It is not a grey > > > area. What may have happened to them without him, it is not Stefan's > > > businness. > > > > Again, this is modern perspective. But, even from a modern perspective he > > wouldn't be considered evil. > >It would: it is undue interference, the negation of freedom. Actually, I would say the level of freedom for the average freeman is as high or better. >As for the modern perspective, see the other answers. I did. Read my responses. I hope you find them interesting/enlightening. > > I was talking about the problem of humanoids in the > interior. Communities were > > small or non-existent before where they thrive now, and I think an > argument can > > be made that their growth was assisted by the greater protection and > > organisation brought by Stefan as Duke. > >Which one? Threshold and Kelvin were already there, though smaller. Actually, Kelvin was /not/ there. And, Threshold was /much/ smaller. > > Before you get on my case about my statement about small communities, > remember > > that the town of Kelvin was founded by Kelvin near the >The fishermen village was already there. The fisherman village is not part of Kelvin city. It says as much in the description of Kelvin. The fisherman village apparently hadn't changed size in hundreds of years, which is not what I would call progress. >goblin-infested Dymrak > >For this matter, look at the goblin forces in B10. Risible. They seemed to completely overrun several settlements. That's not so risible. Since they breed like rabbits, even if they are whupped but good, it only takes a few years for them to be a threat to small, undefended settlements. Also, what are the forces in Dymrak Dread like? > > Forest, and Threshold was just a village when Sherlane arrived. I >But it was there. So, growing it from a tiny village to a well-defended and well-tended town of 5000+ is insignificant progress? > > in Gaz 1 that every few years there's a special concerted effort with > Ylaruam > > to unite against the humanoids (don't remember what kind, I think orcs) > in the > > mountains that border their two countries. > >Which aren't inhabited by human. (Northeastern Traladara wasn't occupied >before Stefan, and the Keep is the only addition). No, but that wasn't the point. It is done to make the road to/from Selenica safer, and thereby encourage trade. This is not something the Traladarans were terribly likely to do on their own. > > It's certainly implied that without that level of action, organisation, and > > cooperation, the humanoids of the area would be a big, big threat. > >As I previously said, they were not for the last millennium. And, your evidence of that is the vast population of Traladarans that over-ran the orcs and goblins of the region, I guess? The interior population had been very small for the last millenium because of the competition and constant threat of attack by the humanoids. They might have kept their mutual numbers in check, but it took organisation the Traladarans didn't have to decide to create Kelvin and then do it. [snip] > > > >> Clearly, the Traladarans must have been a warlike species. And the > > > Hin > > > >> too. > > > > > > > > Sheesh. This is obviously a misrepresentation of my position. > > > > > > Sorry, but is what you said, literally > > > > No, it is literally what I did not say. I didn't mention the > Traladarans or > > the Hin at all. You are implying that by not including them in a list of > > neighbouring (and by that I mean nearby and basically within the borders of > > what is now Karameikos) and peaceful races, that I must be saying those > > unlisted races are warlike. /That/ is a misrepresentation of my position. > >No, I'm just saying that they were damaged by Stefan's action, but that >you are willing to ignore this fact. Okay, the waters have been muddied pretty thoroughly. Who are you saying was damaged by Stefan's action? The elves? The gnomes? [snip] > > > > I was pointing out that Stefan didn't generally go around slaughtering > > > and was > > > > using still /other/ examples than the Traladarans. I was also > > > pointing out > > > > that Traladarans were not the only ones who benefited from Stefan > > > being Duke. > >And I showed you that not only Stefan's subject did not benefit from his >rule, but that he also damaged some of his neighbours, and that the >gnomes did not get any advantage as well. You didn't show it, you only stated it. > > > > All of these things are indications of being a good ruler. > >If they were true. > > > > And I used the Hin, because you mentioned examples *outside* Karameikos: > > > whatever Stefan may believe, no part of the population of Karameikos is > > > composed by elves or gnomes, which have their own kingdoms (they don't > > > pay taxes, and have their legal systems). > > Outside the political framework, yes. But surrounded by their borders, > > nonetheless. > >Is this true? No, since the borders of the territory actually controlled >by Stefan do not include the Callarii (Stefan has no control over the >mountain regions, except for the road to Selenica). I think the Callarii are from the Radlebb Woods, not the northern mountains. That area is definitely physically enclosed by Karameikos' borders. If you were saying, OTOH, that his political rule does not extend to them, then I'd agree. [snip] > > How, exactly, is he acting against Stefan. You'll have to refresh my > memory. > >He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". I don't think this is contrary to what Stefan wants. It can hardly be considered acting against him. [snip] > > > a) Stefan establishes a form of government which is largely based on a > > > person, instead of a code of law (ex.: his decisions aren't good > > > examples of juridical expertise, he use direct judgement often, he sees > > > the open court as an important tool, etc). > > > > He /does/ have a system of law, which is clear, and which he uses to > make his > > decisions. The open court is just a way to ensure that other branches > of the > > goverment have accountability and that there is always at least one way > to make > > a final appeal. IMO, that is very lawful. > >Actually, he doesn't consistently use his own system (read his >description). It doesn't say he is inconsistent in his description. It says, "His judgements in trials are no gems of legal precedent but are fair and even-handed." That means, he doesn't end up creating new precedent as a result of some brilliant application of law. Instead, he applies his existing laws evenly and fairly. >His "final appeal" his not lawful. It *might* be good, but >it is definitely not lawful, because it is essentially arbitrary (as it >resolves in a sentence without trial). See above. > > > This shows he is not so > > > Lawful (though many people will just tell me: "This doesn't prove he is > > > not good", confusing the two points). Also, his actions in the WotI > > > against Thyatis may be the result of a non-Lawful behaviour (though they > > > may as well come from an Evil character). > > > > Well, I'll argue that, too. Killing is generally considered > evil. However, > > where the death sentence exists, executing a serial killer is not > evil. It's > > still killing, but the difference is that one is in the interests of > the common > > good. > >Well, most people here (where I'm physically) will argue that it is >still evil. The point is that even today a lawful and good person can hold the view that executing a serial killer as a just sentence is not evil because it is in the interests of the common good. Note: You don't have to agree with their point of view about capital punishment, just agree that they are not evil because of it. BTW: If this is not getting the point across, I'm willing to drop it. I don't want to get into a debate about capital punishment. (Yikes!) I just wanted to illustrate the concept of the common good. > > I believe Stefan was trying to act in the interests of the common good > of his > > people. You can argue that, but I think that was the intent of the > authors as > > well. Karameikos as a country comes out better for his decisions. > >You're still commenting about goodness were I'm speaking about >lawfulness, BTW. Well, I answer the lawfulness point in this post. Hope that helps. > > I don't think Stefan thought the Machetos people would really come off that > > bad, sorry. Also, Stefan /does/ care about the Traladarans, which > (some of) > > his followers mistreated. (cf. Davinos complaint.) > > > > Your last point really says that you don't like the foil used by the > original > > author, which is that Stefan is in the dark. Well, not much we can do > about > > that now. > >No. It's just that I find incoherences in the fact that he doesn't know, >but everyone else does; that he is at the same time a brilliant and an >irresolute and short-sighted ruler; etc. Well, you're not alone! I'm occasionally disappointed, too. > > > Nothing is "necessary", by Stefan's supporters judgement. How you may > > > find tons of that kind of event mere coincidences is beyond me. > > > > Not coincidence. Design. At a meta-level, the game designers wanted > it that > > way. > >Poor design, then. [snip] Yep. That's what we gotta' deal with. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:05:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:31 PM 11/23/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". << > >Here I have to disagree with you. [big, big snip] You go on at length, but the person he is saying was trying to Traladarize the Thyatians was Nikelnevich, not Stefan. It was taken from his character description. I think you'll agree that puts a different spin on things. =;) -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:18:12 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <009701c055b0$64beba00$1ed0893e@philjones> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:49 AM 11/24/00 +0000, you wrote: > > 1) This is supposedly a medievel-style kingdom where familial > > ties are paramount for royalty. The mere thought that a > > member of the royal family could be "evil" would be nearly > > impossible to believe, much less be discussed openly. Even > > today you see people sticking up for relatives and friends > > for all kinds of nefarious deeds. > > >This pains me to do this, but unfortunately I have to agree with the >Karameikos-phobes on the subject of Von Hendricks. Stefan must know that >Von Hendriks is evil. The evidence to the contrary is too overhelming. First >off, you have two full battalions of Karameikan troops charged with >protecting Karameikos from the Black Baron (both the Hells Jailers and the >Fury in the West - see Gaz 1 p.27 for canonical reference). Then, of course, >you have Luln which is a town created by refugees from the Black Eagle >Barony, headed up by Mistress Sascia, someone who has the Dukes ear, and of >couse last but not least Yolanda of Luln, who will rubbish the Black Eagle >Barony to anyone who will listen. The only reason that I can come up with >that the Black Baron is still in power, is simply that he has recruited an >army (quite possibly humanoids) that is large enough to pose a serious >threat to the Karameikan forces (this is what has happened in my campaign). >Stefan would then think twice about attacking Von Hendricks and siezing the >Black Barony by force, as it would leave Karameikos virtually unprotected >against any other hostile force. [snip] A reasonable explanation. I like this. This way, Stefan can have his character flaw without being completely autistic. He just hesitates long enough at the beginning for the Baron to have established himself in this stalemate for the next three decades. BTW: This is also the way it works in another campaign I am in. On a related note, I hereby retract former statements that Stefan was completely ignorant. I've been re-reading through the Gaz and there are specific examples of things he knew about. For example, in his character description is says he procrastinated after he knew that Ludwig had pillaged Halag. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:42:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mystara=B4s?= Map Navigator In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Ricardo Matheus wrote: > When I first made the map I put it as Bensarian Hermitage without noticing > (sometimes your mind work in strange ways) Then, as I saw it written as > Bengarian Hermitage in a map from WotI I "corrected" it to Bengarian. > I�ll correct it again soon, but is that confusing or what? ;) Very confusing :) I'm still wondering where the original spelling error comes from. Is the name Bengarian Hermitage mentioned in Saga of the Shadow Lord? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:50:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E2D06.1030407@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 02:55 AM, you wrote: >Yep. Also, I don't see why a civilization needs to fall in order to >enter a Renaissance period (in the sense of getting Renaissance level >technology and culture, before someone decides to offer a lesson on the >ethimology of the word "renaissance"). Well, I suppose its not impossible for a civilization to have a renaissance without completely collapsing. But a Renaissance level of technology is different from the cultural change a renaissance creates. Thyatis could have a Renaissance level of technology but still a Roman culture. When you say Darokin has a Renaissance culture it just means Darokin is a snapshot of that time period. The Renaissance is really more of an event than something that lasts. If you see it as advancement then all the modern nations of the world are in continual renaissance. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:54:18 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Evil Genius is James? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm gotten confused since some people use real names and some don't. So, this is the same James that has hated Karameikos for at least three years now and has a fascination with Thyatis? -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:04:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > Actually, I think the population of Traladarans in the interior has grown > in the 30 years since Stefan took power. The humanoid threat is not gone > and there are still significant tracts of wilderness, but some wilderness > has been settled and protected long enough from the humanoids to allow it > to thrive. > > That's not exactly the same. Actually, it was the growing Thyatian population that required the expansion. > Could be. That would mean that the Traladarans were allowed to expand > their effective territory as a result of Stefan's rule. > I think the point is that the infrastructure paid for by those taxes > benefitted the Traladarans. They didn't ask for it, but the benefitted > nonetheless. They paid for it, so the net benefit was nil. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:10:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1E2B14.10307@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Preface: I'm staying out of the philosophical discourse and near-flame-war that has erupted. I still don't agree with the POV that Karameikos necessarily needs to be evil or incompetent to preserve canon events. There are lots and lots of things there that I would like to answer in those posts, but I would be repeating myself unnecessarily. Also, I want to avoid the objectivism/subjectivism debate, which I find quite pointless. However, I don't want the fact that I won't be throwing anything more in that direction to imply tacit approval of one opinion or the other. I've stated my opinion, and so far it stands. At 09:47 AM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: [snip] > Your point is: it is clear that the author wanted to make Stefan an >entirely good character, so we have to devise ways such that all of his >actions are actually the result of a good behaviour. Well, I'll answer for myself. My point is that it is clear the author wanted to make Stefan a good character. That does not preclude making mistakes or occasionally having to "choose the lesser of two evils." That means that we should understand his actions as the result of good intentions. I hope that clarifies. >My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon >description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not >going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in >Stefan's description and actions. Not far-fetched explanations. We want reasonable explanations. I believe such potential explanations exist. One suggestion was that the Baron has created a stale-mate situation, so that now even if the Duke wanted to act, it would be unwise. There may be others. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:12:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E2F1B.6060307@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:04 AM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >Andrew Theisen wrote: > >>At 11:13 PM 11/23/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: >> >>>No, no. The elven guard is just a move by Stefan to gain some renown >>>among the elves! (It's in the Gaz, if you don't believe me!) >> >> >>Where is this mentioned? The only mentions of the Elvenguard I see are: >> >>p.5 (under "Elves"): "Duke Stefan has a guard unit entirely composed of >>Callarii elves, which has given many elves the chance to meet him, and the >>Callarii are favorably disposed toward the Duke." > >Here, it says the Elvenguard have exactly this effect. Effect and intent are not the same. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:37:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > >> Well, perhaps you like being a *subject*, but I'd rather be a citizen in >> an inefficiently governed nation than a subject in a perfectly governed >> one... must be my fault, clearly. > > Clearly. I would personally choose to live in a perfectly governed > monarchy than a corrupt republic. A perfectly governed monarchy IMO would > care more and do more for its subjects than a corrupt and self-serving > republic. > > I should mention that I /actually/ live in a constitutional monarchy, so > I'm both a subject /and/ a citizen. =;) Well, I suppose I should drop this subject, since it is leaving the Mystara context. I should mention that I actually live in a fairly corrupt republic, but that I do prefer it to any monarchy, even constitutional. >> > Before you get on my case about my statement about small communities, >> remember >> > that the town of Kelvin was founded by Kelvin near the >> The fishermen village was already there. > > > The fisherman village is not part of Kelvin city. So what? It shows that the region was pretty safe, anyway. > It says as much in the > description of Kelvin. The fisherman village apparently hadn't changed > size in hundreds of years, which is not what I would call progress. If it's fine for them. It says it is, IIRC. >> goblin-infested Dymrak >> >> For this matter, look at the goblin forces in B10. Risible. > > They seemed to completely overrun several settlements. Settlements of 10 people or so. Even the old village at Kelvin's site had a population of 1000, IIRC. Enough to raise a few low level adventurers and bash the goblin. The numbers given in B10 only show that the settlements were actually unprotected by Kelvin's troops, because even a pathetic garrison would have resisted their attack. > That's not so > risible. Since they breed like rabbits, even if they are whupped but good, > it only takes a few years for them to be a threat to small, undefended > settlements. Still, any party of low level characters can take them out. And they become aggressive only when supported and leaded by the Iron Ring, an organization sponsored by the Black Eagle. >> > Forest, and Threshold was just a village when Sherlane arrived. I >> But it was there. > > > So, growing it from a tiny village to a well-defended and well-tended town > of 5000+ is insignificant progress? It's just a matter of numbers. The fact that those village already existed shows that the Traladarans could have built towns there, if they were interested in doing so. > No, but that wasn't the point. It is done to make the road to/from > Selenica safer, and thereby encourage trade. This is not something the > Traladarans were terribly likely to do on their own. So, first Stefan intrudes into goblin territory, than he is annoyed by their reaction, and he has them bashed by his force (or at least tries to, since he doesn't seem very successful). I don't see it as a paragon of virtue. >> > It's certainly implied that without that level of action, >> organisation, and >> > cooperation, the humanoids of the area would be a big, big threat. >> >> As I previously said, they were not for the last millennium. > > > And, your evidence of that is the vast population of Traladarans that > over-ran the orcs and goblins of the region, I guess? The interior > population had been very small for the last millenium because of the > competition and constant threat of attack by the humanoids. They might > have kept their mutual numbers in check, but it took organisation the > Traladarans didn't have to decide to create Kelvin and then do it. Kelvin was already there, as a fishermen's village. >> No, I'm just saying that they were damaged by Stefan's action, but that >> you are willing to ignore this fact. > > > Okay, the waters have been muddied pretty thoroughly. Who are you saying > was damaged by Stefan's action? The elves? The gnomes? The Hin and the Traladarans! As for the gnomes, the arrive of Stefan did not influence them much. And for the elves, the only effect of Stefan's arrival was the formation of the Elvenguard. >> And I showed you that not only Stefan's subject did not benefit from his >> rule, but that he also damaged some of his neighbours, and that the >> gnomes did not get any advantage as well. > > > You didn't show it, you only stated it. Actually, I showed you proof enough that the gnomes' caravans are still attacked by bandits, that the river ways aren't secure, etc. On the other hand, you only stated that things got better under Stefan, but you had no proof of that. > I think the Callarii are from the Radlebb Woods, not the northern > mountains. That area is definitely physically enclosed by Karameikos' > borders. If you were saying, OTOH, that his political rule does not extend > to them, then I'd agree. No, I meant that the borders of Karameikos are just lines on a map. The territory controlled by Karameikos is much smaller (and does not include the northern mountains). >> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". > > > I don't think this is contrary to what Stefan wants. It can hardly be > considered acting against him. Well, he wants the opposite! > It doesn't say he is inconsistent in his description. It says, "His > judgements in trials are no gems of legal precedent but are fair and > even-handed." That means, he doesn't end up creating new precedent as a > result of some brilliant application of law. Instead, he applies his > existing laws evenly and fairly. To me, that means is judgements are so poor from a legal point of view, that they are not usable as precedents. Which doesn't mean that his judgements aren't fair (on a theoretical point of view), just that he isn't much bound to his own laws. [...] > BTW: If this is not getting the point across, I'm willing to drop it. I > don't want to get into a debate about capital punishment. (Yikes!) I just > wanted to illustrate the concept of the common good. Nor I do. Point dropped. >> > Your last point really says that you don't like the foil used by the >> original >> > author, which is that Stefan is in the dark. Well, not much we can do >> about >> > that now. >> >> No. It's just that I find incoherences in the fact that he doesn't know, >> but everyone else does; that he is at the same time a brilliant and an >> irresolute and short-sighted ruler; etc. > > > Well, you're not alone! I'm occasionally disappointed, too. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:37:32 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E3D2D.9040700@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:04 AM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >Derek Adam wrote: > >> >>Actually, I think the population of Traladarans in the interior has grown >>in the 30 years since Stefan took power. The humanoid threat is not gone >>and there are still significant tracts of wilderness, but some wilderness >>has been settled and protected long enough from the humanoids to allow it >>to thrive. >> >>That's not exactly the same. > >Actually, it was the growing Thyatian population that required the >expansion. That statement seems to imply that the majority of people in Kelvin are Thyatian, not Traladaran. The majority population of Karameikos is definitely Traladaran, so do you have proof that there's distributive anomoly? A quick glance at the description of Kelvin didn't enlighten me. >>Could be. That would mean that the Traladarans were allowed to expand >>their effective territory as a result of Stefan's rule. From your previous comment, I would guess that you disagree with this assessment? >>I think the point is that the infrastructure paid for by those taxes >>benefitted the Traladarans. They didn't ask for it, but the benefitted >>nonetheless. > >They paid for it, so the net benefit was nil. That attitude is contrary to the idea that it's possible to create value through work. People do things because the effort put in is worth less than the value created. Investments in infrastructure are examples. I argue the there was a net benefit. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:46:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > Preface: I'm staying out of the philosophical discourse and near-flame-war > that has erupted. I still don't agree with the POV that Karameikos > necessarily needs to be evil or incompetent to preserve canon > events. There are lots and lots of things there that I would like to > answer in those posts, but I would be repeating myself > unnecessarily. Also, I want to avoid the objectivism/subjectivism debate, > which I find quite pointless. However, I don't want the fact that I won't > be throwing anything more in that direction to imply tacit approval of one > opinion or the other. I've stated my opinion, and so far it stands. Ok. I suppose the same will work for me. I've already repeated myself enough. >> My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon >> description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not >> going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in >> Stefan's description and actions. > > > Not far-fetched explanations. We want reasonable explanations. I believe > such potential explanations exist. One suggestion was that the Baron has > created a stale-mate situation, so that now even if the Duke wanted to act, > it would be unwise. There may be others. Unfortunately, it seems that one of the most popular answers in this thread has been "I don't know why you find it so difficult to accept that..." followed by far fetched explanations. I even tried (for example) to give a reasonable explanation of the existance of Radlebbe Tower, in the "Good Wise Stefan" hypotesis, but I reckon it's still quite far fetched. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:55:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Actually, it was the growing Thyatian population that required the >> expansion. > > That statement seems to imply that the majority of people in Kelvin are > Thyatian, not Traladaran. The majority population of Karameikos is > definitely Traladaran, so do you have proof that there's distributive > anomoly? A quick glance at the description of Kelvin didn't enlighten me. The majority of people in Karameikos are Traladarans, sure. But you will agree that most minor villages are populated by the Traladarans, which reduces the actual proportion of Traladaran in the main towns (save for Specularum, which is clearly inhabited mostly by poor Traladarans). The fact that there is no mention of Churches of Traladara in Kelvin, and especially in Threshold, also adds to the idea that most (or a larger proportion than in the overall Karameikos figures) inhabitants of those towns aren't Traladarans, but Thyatians and/or mixed. >>> Could be. That would mean that the Traladarans were allowed to expand >>> their effective territory as a result of Stefan's rule. >> > > From your previous comment, I would guess that you disagree with this > assessment? I think they were forced to expand into new lands, when the Thyatians took their (already developed) lands. > That attitude is contrary to the idea that it's possible to create value > through work. People do things because the effort put in is worth less > than the value created. Investments in infrastructure are examples. That's when they want things. > I argue the there was a net benefit. It's YO. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 07:31:00 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > 3) von Hendricks is cleverer than Stefan is. > > > > > > Stefan is supposed to have Int 13 and Wis 15... > > > > Good point. How smart is Bargle, though? > > High intelligence but low wisdom, which means great planning, but with > the stereotypical archvillain's flaws: underestimating. Notice that, > while Stefan isn't at genious level, he is (should be) far more wise > than Bargle or Ludwig. Also, Bargle as not always been Ludwig's court > wizard. Stefan had quite a long time to realize that Ludwig was not only > evil, but also a danger to his own power! Recall that Ludwig is a Hattian, and most Thyatians are of the opinion that bad reputations can be excused by, "That's just old Ludwig being a Hattian..." In fact, The Black Eagle's inclusion of nonhuman tribesmen could be seen as a softening of the standard Hattian viewpoint (indeed it was). Stefan could easily have seen this as a means to greater unification in time. > > > Perhaps past events (painted with a different coloured brush by Ludwig) made > > the area seem more likely to have a native uprising. Once the fort was built, > > it would be silly to abandon it. Also, the Fort may have multiple purposes, > > like being a more woodsy outpost and thus a more congenial venue to meet and > > discuss matters with the Callarii. > > Well, it's more his original use that puzzles me: I mean, there was > little population in the area (Luln was formed by Black Eagle Barony > refugees later), there was little hope to colonize the Callarii lands, > and there was the Riverfork garrison (and good cousin Ludwig!) so near. > Also, Kelvin was already being built near the Callarii lands, and was > surely more apt to host friendly meetings. I was under the impression that Halag was originally a Traladaran community. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 05:37:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: Mystara�s Map Navigator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Very confusing :) >I'm still wondering where the original spelling error comes from. Is the >name Bengarian Hermitage mentioned in Saga of the Shadow Lord? > >H�vard I don�t know because I don�t have it. Darkblood _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 07:49:08 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thyatis is best seen as a "what if?" What is the Roman Empire had survived into the Middle-Ages. The political structure is straight out of ancient Rome while the technology is definitely early Middle ages, and the scholarship and diplomatic efforts are clearly Renaissance-era. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Agathokles" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] A Different Take on Stefan > "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > > > At 11/22/00 12:29 PM, you wrote: > > >But Stefan comes from Byzantine Thyatis!!!! That's the realm of > > >deception! Also, the whole setting is more Renaissance than Middle Age > > >oriented. > > > > Darokin is the only nation in a Renaissance period, I think. Karameikos > > seems modeled after a High Middle Age kingdom. > > Stefan and Ludwig are Thyatians. Thyatis is definitely not Middle Age > (at least not in the Western European way). Also, beyond Darokin and > Thyatis there isn't much left around Karameikos. > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:55:12 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Tzimisce Subject: K:KoM and Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I�m having some problems to get the gazeeters, so I was thinking about buying the new Karameikos and Glantri boxed settings. Are they good sources of information? Thanks in advance, - Tzimisce ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:30:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > What about Magda of Marilenev? > She doesn't have any fief worth speaking of. > When they are incited and told lies, I guess so. They are also very willing to > not rebel when the facts come out. Hmm.... > What facts? > Patriarch-level priests killed in the rebellion? That's hard to believe, even > for you. Besides, one would think something like that would have been > mentioned. Moreover, if there were itinerant patriarchs, Zemiros Sulescu > probably wouldn't still be around, now would he? > Aleksyev's parents were killed in the rebellion. I'd wager they were patriarch-level priests. And Zemiros Sulescu being around has nothing to do with this. Sure he is a nosferatu, but he is not evil and to Traladarans he is "one of our own". So I doubt Traladaran priests would be pursuing him. > Okay, I'll have to look back. I remember Zemiros in Gaz 1 as a fighter. Are > you using the same reference, or KKoA? > He is a Magic-User in Gaz1. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:35:55 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is problby the way to see him: Thay may have though that he should be LG becaus he comes from a lawfull decadiant kingdom with good intentions for the people of what is know known as karameikos. If this is the case then Stefan is acting in char. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:55:42 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Unfortunately, genocide is what these people (Hitler, Milosevec) are known > for. It's rather natural for it to be mentioned, and it's silly for you to get > all upset that someone would. > Okay. Just remember that it's you who is bringing genocide into the discussion about Stefan, not me. > The point you're missing is that they also had lots and lots of very evil > intentions. All you succeed in showing is that evil people might still be > capable of some some good intentions. > > I think you are trying to show that good intentions can often lead to evil > behaviour. I manifestly disagree. > Well, the abovementioned people's evil behavior stemmed from their original good intentions. If you disagree with that, then I won't spend time convincing you, but it's factually true. > > BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD!!! > > Yes it does! If all your intentions are good, then you are good. > Please reply to the fictional example I have given you. > Note that I'm saying you cannot intend to do an evil thing knowing it is evil > and still really have good intentions. > Ah, I see what you are saying. However, how many people go around saying "I'm doing that because it's evil and I'm evil! Muhahahaha!"? Indeed, most people don't even consider anything they do "evil", precisely because they have good intentions, so what they do to promote them must be good. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:57:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Gaz 1, pg 51 (from Aleksyev Nikelnevich's writeup- the patriarch of the CoT): > "He still carries bitterness against the Duke for the death of his parents, > but does not conspire against the man or use his political sway to damage > the royal family." > > Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on about > the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich plots > against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free to > interpret this as they choose. > Does not conspire perhaps, but it clearly means that Aleksyev does NOT consider Stefan his friend or a legitimate ruler, as some would claim he does. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos Auld Skald wrote: > Preface: I'm staying out of the philosophical discourse and near-flame-war that has erupted. << Well, if nothing else, *that* shows you're smarter than me. 8-) OtoH, I didn't want to say nothing when Agathokles' was attacked, but still, your point is taken on that one. >> There are lots and lots of things there that I would like to answer in those posts, but I would be repeating myself unnecessarily. << Well, at this point I think we're all repeating ourselves quite a bit. I guess we do think its nessissary. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> The senators never change, and the Senate is a completely corrupt institution. << That's based on as much or as little (I'd argue less) information than is my position on Karameikos. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 18:34:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Actually, I think the point is quite pithy: In cases where there was already > some hereditary rule, the effective change to the Traladaran peasant was hardly > noticeable. I think that's what's being alluded to. > Well, to this I'd just like to point to Russians (who seem to have many similarities with Traladarans) as an example. No matter how much better life might be, I can't see any Russian peasants preferring to live under foreign overlords as opposed to their own ones. And yes, this was so even in medieval times. So while some people may not be nationalistic, others (like the Traladarans) are. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> You've given and justified your position fairly well. I just don't think it's the /only/ justifiable position within canon. << Well, that's fine. I don't object to stating it that way. If things had remained on that level of discussion, then I think some of the disputatiousness wouldn't have arrisen. For example, in your replies to Agathokles today, it doesn't seem like you're saying that his take is one possibility that is fine, but you see it thus and such instead. It seems like you're arguing he's wrong, period. >> A fair comment. It's true my "lecturing" so far has been strictly in posts where I was arguing for my position and against the contrary ones. << Ok, well I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about that, since my own style is too easily similar, especially when confronted. But I don't like being told, in effect, that I'm the only intransigent one by folks engaging in similar behavior, if you can see what I mean. Now, I will admit again that you *haven't* been the "worst offender", but there's been some spillover since "you're on their side" - and THAT is wrong of me. I offer no excuse for that since there is none, I simply appologize for the instances where that might have been the case (it's hard to remember who said what in these hundreds of posts sometimes, but again that's not offered as an excuse, just an explaination for my bad behavior in not always keeping the distictions). >> OTOH, breaking the treaty with Thyatis keeps him neutral in the battle of the titans, and leaves his country less likely to get crushed. << Well, I could say "right - neutral", but that would be missing your point. I don't *agree* with your point here, especially since in this instance it's the *one* instance where the author (same author of the Gaz) specifically used unusually harsh (very harsh) language to describe Stefan's behavior (I'm not sure he layed into the MoH so harshly! But that might have been because he expected we'd see the MoH's actions in a bad light naturally - but then he *did* add "extra emphasis" regarding Stefan's actions here, IMO that makes it sort of a "make no mistake" situation. He didn't write "Stefan chose the lesser of two evils, troubled by his decision but making it none the less." Anyhow, that's just my opinion on that one). >> I disagree. So long as there are reasonable arguments against your position, the burden of proof remains. << Well, see that sort of belies your statement at the begining of this post, which is unfortunate I suppose but not unexpected. >> You are right that my position has evolved over the last couple of days. I still think the case for LN is reasonable. However, I've come to realise that LG is just as reasonable, and just as justifiable with canon. << Well, see above then. >> Noted. It's also a reasonable stance to take. Mine is similar, but differs in the nuances I stated above. << Ok. >> He has to know about it to act on it. I know you really hate the idea that he doesn't, and I don't like it much either, but that's what canon says. Feel free to abandon it, if you like, but you seem fond of canon. << People leap to the conclusion that I blindly adhere to canon, at the same time noting that I'm not doing so and finding it objectionable that I'm not. IMO, that's an effort, unconcious probably, to force me into a characature of my position, especially when it comes within a post wherin the argument is made "me, I'm defending the canon position, you're straying from it", to then come back and say, in effect, that I'm the one who's too strongly attached to it. As I've said repeatedly - sure I read canon, then I apply my own judgement to it. And if that means I see one part that IMO is at odds with other parts, it's fair to do so - now, on the "Lawful Good", one also has to remember that's a late addition - some folks seem fixated on that AD&D label to the exclusion of all else. Now one can validly point to places where in the OD&D it says he's a goodhearted man, decent man with good inclinations - my point is that on balance his behavior shows that these inclinations aren't all that strong, because of the fact that when push comes to shove in a difficult situation, he's "not very careful" about applying them (if there's an easier but less noble/concientious way, which benifits him, that's the course he takes). Now, IMO, what some are trying to do is let themselves have a lot of leaway (they prefer to adhere to the labled alignment and the "he's a good man" aspect, and then that gives them the ability to revise the parts that don't fit with that or re-interpret those parts in the best of all posible lights), while denying such to those who disagree with them (The view you seemed to express above is that I must adhere to all parts, not modify those that are at a discrepancy from his behavior, and thus be, in effect, compelled to adopt your position - wherupon I guess you'll then grant me permission *to* modify/re-interpret the same parts that you want to). Now I think that we probably do agree on one fundamental thing: that some of the things Stefan is described as doing or not doing are at odds with his presumed character. It's in how we are *choosing* to handle/deal with this disparity where we disagree. I just don't think that your way is any more valid (or, admittedly, any *less* valid) than my way. >> Not you, but some definitely have. I apologise for those misattributions to you. << And, again, I appologize for mine. >> What I am putting forth as dispositive proof is that the Traladarans benefitted from these actions and he promoted them. << Well, again, the inhabitants of "evil" empires, it can be argued benifited from actions they promoted. In five or ten centuries, is it *possible* that people will look back on the Karameikan period as a "Karameikan Traitorium"? IMO, it's possible. >> Not *the* font of ALL good things. Just *a* font of SOME good things. That's not such a stretch, really. << Put that way, no. Put in a way that gives him credit for the (positive, but probably not the negative Desmond II Kelvin stuff) goings on at Kelvin but absolving him of what happened in Halag/Fort Doom, I do think that's a bit of a stretch in many ways. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan Destiny Comments >> Funny! (For followers of B5, that is). But it /is/ kind of over-the-top. << Yah, but it was put in as more of a joke than anything. Note to folks: there's about a million posts in this topic this morning and I'm not going to reply to them all because I'm not going to read them all, but only because I just don't have time. If there's a post where folks made a point they really really wanted me to take note of that I seem to pass over, feel free to send it to me privately if they want. Otherwise, well we've kind of beat this nag bloody anyhow. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:50:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan Mystara wrote: > >>> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". >> > Here I have to disagree with you. He's not trying to have the Traladaran population "Thyatianized" >> Sorry, but the "he" here is Aleksyev Nikelnevitch :) << Do'h! Yah, Solmyr ICQ'd that to me too this morning that he was who you were talking about there. What can I say? I misread what you wrote. I'm not sure about that one, either (Aleksyev Nikelnevitch trying to "Traldarize" the Thyatians, but it may be that he hopes to see them submerged in the mass of Traladarans I guess). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> Yep. Also, I don't see why a civilization needs to fall in order to enter a Renaissance period << Ditto. I also don't see the point in the seeming argument that they would give up an expantionistic policy and colonial endevour, considering that, if anything, Renaissance powers were more ambitiously expantionistic than the preceding era (yes, yes, I know those Midieval guys were expansionistic, too, I'm just saying that all things considered, Renaissance nations do seem to have been more agressively so. Machievelli describes conditions in Italy, along with all the attempted conquests both by "insiders" and "outsiders", and his dream for a united Italy to stick it to those encroaching French & Spanish, etc. Similarly, Renaissance-era nations created colonial empires. They were definately not exclusively inward-driven). But I suspect, but do not know, that this has more to do with a wish to see Thyatis "completely collapse" than with Renaissance. I think, again, but do not know for sure, for example, that if I were to ask "what does that mean for Karameikos? Does it have to completely collapse before it can achieve a Renaissance-era civilization?" the answer will be "well, they did - they went through their Dark Age starting in BC 1500", to which my reply might be "well, lets remember that Thyatis 'completely collapsed' when the Alphatians invaded it in BC 192, and again had a 'near death experience' in AC 959 which is said to have helped 'turn the empire's invisible decline around', leading to a possibility for renewal," but I suspect (but do not know for sure) that the reply would be to the effect "that doesn't count" - again, because the goal is mainly "complete collapse" rather than "renaissance" for Thyatis, I suspect (I.E. I'm don't think that by such interpretations, if they are put fo! ! rth, it could be said that Darokin underwent a "complete collapse" but it is in a Renaissance period none the less, too). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan >> I'm I right in assuming that they mean Renaissance level in terms of what weapons are available? Or is this for the whole cultural description? << The definitions used are more cultural/social, not limited to weapons. See "Level of Civilization" starting p.92 for the description of the levels. And the description for "Renaissance" is on p.94 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:04:33 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > >I think there is enough in canon to support my argument that Traladarans > >have suffered. > > I'm not disputing that. They suffered when there was a trasition of > government, and during the disarray there were Thyatian opportunists that > victimized Traladarans. I just don't think they /continue/ to suffer, and > I think that the Traladarans overall finally benefitted from Stefan's rule. > Well, there are plenty of canon indications that Traladarans continue to suffer (and the Black Eagle Barony is only the most obvious example). > I believe Andrew refuted this for me. Nikelnevich does not conspire or use > his sway to damage the royal family. > See my reply to that. > Well, in the description of the Cult of Halav, it says he frustrates them > in their attempts to convince him he's Halav. > Perhaps he frustrates them by failing to act like Halav (which is also somewhat indicative of whether he is Halav-like Lawful Good). Still, this does not indicate that he hates or suppresses them. > I don't want you to shut up, I just want you to not make inflammatory > comparisons. You later said you didn't intend to draw parallels to Hitler > and I accept that, but I was not the only person to think that was what you > were doing. > Well, why do you get so riled up about comparing a fictional character? Do you love Stefan so much that you can't stand him being compared to someone worse? I bet you wouldn't be so upset if I compared Hitler to, say, Heinrich Oesterhaus. > >So now you consider an ambitious, scheming man who has no regard for > >anyone else's wellbeing, least of all Traladarans', a "good ruler"? > > You beg the question here. I do not believe Stefan is without regard for > others' well-being. I think he does care about the Traladarans. > Well, you missed it, but in the above I meant Desmond Kelvin, whom you declared a "good ruler". > That's true, but they weren't all systematically ousted - that was my point. > Only those who could provide any sort of opposition to Stefan and his cronies. > No, I would classify his morals as neutral (perhaps with some good > tendencies). The key point is that he doesn't see anything wrong with > killing and harming innocents in his quest. Now, if he felt bad about it > and endeavoured to prevent such harm, then I would change my tune. He gets > Well, Stefan doesn't see anything wrong with destroying Traladaran culture, killing Traladarans who don't agree with him. He doesn't seem to be feeling bad about it either, since to his mind they are wrong and he is right. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:07:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E8F7E.E95F165@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, genocide is what these people (Hitler, Milosevec) are > known > > for. It's rather natural for it to be mentioned, and it's silly for > you to get > > all upset that someone would. > > > Okay. Just remember that it's you who is bringing genocide into the > discussion about Stefan, not me. It's fundamental to judging his character, and ignoring that fact would make the reference of Hitler meaningless. It's one of the principle things that makes him obviously evil. In bringing it up, I was demonstrating that the seeming parallel you were drawing was inappropriate. We've already agreed, however, that your intent was not to show such a parallel, but to show that evil men /can/ do things that good men also do, in an attempt to show that someone I am asserting is good man is really nothing of the sort. I'm afraid it's still a poor argument. Another shade of your argument is that people can have good intentions and behave evilly. That's something I also disagree with. In the examples you chose, I would argue that the intentions were never actually good. > > The point you're missing is that they also had lots and lots of very > > evil intentions. All you succeed in showing is that evil people might > > still be capable of some some good intentions. > > > > I think you are trying to show that good intentions can often lead to > > evil behaviour. I manifestly disagree. > > > Well, the abovementioned people's evil behavior stemmed from their > original good intentions. If you disagree with that, then I won't spend > time convincing you, but it's factually true. It's /not/ factually true, and you beg the question by saying so. Anyone who takes an "any means to the ends" approach, and then chooses horrific means is evil. One good result for a small number of people at the cost of countless horrifically bad results is not what I call a good intention. > > > BUT SOLELY HAVING GOOD INTENTIONS DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD!!! > > > > Yes it does! If all your intentions are good, then you are good. > > > Please reply to the fictional example I have given you. I have. I hope it helped. > > Note that I'm saying you cannot intend to do an evil thing knowing it > > is evil and still really have good intentions. > > > Ah, I see what you are saying. However, how many people go around saying > "I'm doing that because it's evil and I'm evil! Muhahahaha!"? Indeed, > most people don't even consider anything they do "evil", precisely > because they have good intentions, so what they do to promote them must > be good. There's a nuance here that's important. A good person who realises something they have done is wrong or harmful will feel bad and will not continue such behaviour, and might reasonably try to prevent others from making that same mistake. A very good person will also attempt to make amends. A neutral person might say, "Well, I guess I won't do that again," but might not feel that bad about it, nor make especial effort to prevent it in the future. An evil person will simply evaluate whether it gets them what they want. Hope this helps. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> You go on at length, but the person he is saying was trying to Traladarize the Thyatians was Nikelnevich, not Stefan. << Yes, I made a bo-bo, proving that it is possible. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:07:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > I've thought about it, and I think I should take this opportunity to > apologise for calling you piece of work. It was ungentlemanly of me. I > was goaded with the reference of Hitler, but I don't think that's a fair > excuse. Sorry. > Hey, no problem. I normally just ignore ungentlemanly remarks directed at me :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:10:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E8FD5.9D02BA51@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Andrew Theisen wrote: > > > > Gaz 1, pg 51 (from Aleksyev Nikelnevich's writeup- the patriarch of > the CoT): > > "He still carries bitterness against the Duke for the death of his > parents, > > but does not conspire against the man or use his political sway to > damage > > the royal family." > > > > Given that this is DM information, and is all we are given to go on > about > > the man's personality, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Nikelnevich > plots > > against Stefan in any way, shape, or form. Of course, anyone is free > to > > interpret this as they choose. > > > Does not conspire perhaps, but it clearly means that Aleksyev does NOT > consider Stefan his friend or a legitimate ruler, as some would claim he > does. I've since retracted my statement that he supported Stefan or was on friendly terms. I still think that Nikelnevich would have a moral obligation to oust Stefan if he thought the Duke was so unfit to rule that Traladarans were suffering under his rule. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan > However, how many people go around saying "I'm doing that because it's evil and I'm evil! Muhahahaha!"? Indeed, most people don't even consider anything they do "evil", precisely because they have good intentions, so what they do to promote them must be good. << Exactly. IMO, sometimes it seems like people think that all the evil folk must get up thinking "what EVIL can I do today?", which IMO leads more to snidely-whiplash villians. Not even J.R. Ewing got up planning conciously to be EVIL - he pursued his goals, which *he* felt were justified - by his means (not deliberately, conciously evil ones). Now, extreme, verging on over-the-top, villans (and I guess fiends from the lower planes and their ilk) might say to themselves "I want to be *EVIL* and commit *EVIL* deeds. What can I do to be EVIL today?" But I don't think that's a majority of the evil characters. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:20:54 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> The senators never change, and the Senate is a completely corrupt > institution. << > > That's based on as much or as little (I'd argue less) information than > is my position on Karameikos. Well, the information in DDA1 (Arena of Thyatis) & DDA2 (Legions of Thyatis) indicates that the majority of senators are corrupt. Thincol chose three senators that *everyone* considers the most honest and upright of the senate as judges to try the truly despicable Senator Helenites Osteropolus. Of those, Angelarian Canolocarius is a complete thug, the woman senator who follows Tarastia (is it Flavia Metonenzes, or is that the defense attorney? I can't remember) admits that she has indiscretions and considers it a necessity of senatorial dealings, and Baralidu Nuar - the only really good one of the bunch - is ineffectual. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> No matter how much better life might be, I can't see any Russian peasants preferring to live under foreign overlords as opposed to their own ones. << When it comes right down to it, most people in the world seem to prefer native despots over even a "decent" foreign regime. Now, someone might say "but I live in Canada, and its head of State is the Queen of England, and I don't mind" - yah, but you're not governed by them, and if Queen Liz decided to "trade" you to the Duke of Sussex (or whatever) and sent said Duke over to rule you (to *really* rule you, dispensing with your own government and instituting his own vision, combined with replacing not only the Canadian Parliament but all the "important" Provincial rulers with guys who come with him from England - including his not-so-great Cousin, who he appoints to rule your Province) - well, I just don't think folks would be happy campers under such conditions. And, as Solmyr pointed out, folks weren't generally happy with what they saw as foreign regimes ruling them "even" in the Middle Ages, *especially* when the religion differed even mildly (and it differs more than mildly between the Traladaran and "Karameikan" faiths). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:25:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E98A0.45808B27@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Actually, I think the point is quite pithy: In cases where there was > > already some hereditary rule, the effective change to the Traladaran peasant > > was hardly noticeable. I think that's what's being alluded to. > > > Well, to this I'd just like to point to Russians (who seem to have many > similarities with Traladarans) as an example. No matter how much better > life might be, I can't see any Russian peasants preferring to live under > foreign overlords as opposed to their own ones. And yes, this was so > even in medieval times. So while some people may not be nationalistic, > others (like the Traladarans) are. Good points. However, it doesn't actually answer the point that the effective change in lifestyle to Traladaran peasants in question that came immediately with the change in the identity of who ruled them was not really noticeable. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:30:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> I've since retracted my statement that he supported Stefan or was on friendly terms. I still think that Nikelnevich would have a moral obligation to oust Stefan if he thought the Duke was so unfit to rule that Traladarans were suffering under his rule. << Now apply that same reasoning to Stefan in the case of Ludwig. Ok, you might reply that "he doesn't know" - but remember, when he *does* know, *he* doesn't oust Ludwig - others (the Hin) do it, while he stands asside, washing his hands of the matter. As I said earlier on in this, *I* felt he had a moral obligation to oust Ludwig. . .if he was a good man of integrity who took responsibility for his actions/decisions/mistakes and understood his obligations. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: K:KoM and Glantri >> Hi, I�m having some problems to get the gazeeters, so I was thinking about buying the new Karameikos and Glantri boxed settings. Are they good sources of information? << If you don't have the Gazeteers, then they're fine, even good, since they mostly just repeat the same things in the Gaz's. (there are *some* changes, but not so many - I.E. if you did have the Gaz's alread, I'd say you could forget it, it wouldn't be worth it really. But since you don't, I'd say you should go for it, it will be worth it). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Well, Stefan doesn't see anything wrong with destroying Traladaran culture, killing Traladarans who don't agree with him. He doesn't seem to be feeling bad about it either, since to his mind they are wrong and he is right. << Point again about the MoH: he doesn't go around in Sind slaughtering the Sindhi, or even their rulers, and doesn't seem to have done much to displace Sindhi culture or even religion (though perhaps it's early and he will try). So which one of them is bad? "The MoH because he hangs around with humanoids" isn't a good answer, btw. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:00:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > A good Stefan doubtless would have lost some sleep over it, but he would > still make the same choice. > But would a good Stefan then immdediately seek to profit from it, making a lucrative deal with his homeland's enemies? I'd think that a good Stefan, if he had to break the treaty, would at least have stayed completely neutral, not seeking any benefits from it. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:12:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> You've given and justified your position fairly well. I just don't > think it's the /only/ justifiable position within canon. << > > Well, that's fine. I don't object to stating it that way. If things had > remained on that level of discussion, then I think some of the > disputatiousness wouldn't have arrisen. For example, in your replies to > Agathokles today, it doesn't seem like you're saying that his take is > one possibility that is fine, but you see it thus and such instead. It > seems like you're arguing he's wrong, period. A fair statement. OTOH, your posts also take the same tone of "I'm right, you're wrong, period." I think that's what makes these things get so heated. > >> A fair comment. It's true my "lecturing" so far has been strictly in > posts where I was arguing for my position and against the contrary ones. > << > > Ok, well I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about that, since my > own style is too easily similar, especially when confronted. But I don't > like being told, in effect, that I'm the only intransigent one by folks > engaging in similar behavior, if you can see what I mean. > > Now, I will admit again that you *haven't* been the "worst offender", > but there's been some spillover since "you're on their side" - and THAT > is wrong of me. I offer no excuse for that since there is none, I simply > appologize for the instances where that might have been the case (it's > hard to remember who said what in these hundreds of posts sometimes, but > again that's not offered as an excuse, just an explaination for my bad > behavior in not always keeping the distictions). Ditto for me. I behaved just as badly (or worse?). I've made a few small apologies along these lines in these several threads, but I like yours better. Do you mind if I use it, so long as I give you credit for writing it? =;) > >> OTOH, breaking the treaty with Thyatis keeps him neutral in the > battle of the titans, and leaves his country less likely to get crushed. > << > > Well, I could say "right - neutral", but that would be missing your > point. I don't *agree* with your point here, especially since in this > instance it's the *one* instance where the author (same author of the > Gaz) specifically used unusually harsh (very harsh) language to describe > Stefan's behavior (I'm not sure he layed into the MoH so harshly! But > that might have been because he expected we'd see the MoH's actions in a > bad light naturally - but then he *did* add "extra emphasis" regarding > Stefan's actions here, IMO that makes it sort of a "make no mistake" > situation. He didn't write "Stefan chose the lesser of two evils, > troubled by his decision but making it none the less." Anyhow, that's > just my opinion on that one). > > >> I disagree. So long as there are reasonable arguments against your > position, the burden of proof remains. << > > Well, see that sort of belies your statement at the begining of this > post, which is unfortunate I suppose but not unexpected. A reasonable observation. However, everything I propose would still follow canon, without the need to change anything already written. OTOH, proposing a change requires a burden of proof be met. I'm willing to say that you've attempted to meet the burden of proof in good faith, and that it's not unreasonable for you to assert that you /have/ met it for some claims. It's not so much of a stretch for us to say it's reasonable that the follow-up authors should have interpreted Stefan's OD&D listing of Lawful as Lawful Neutral. I'm not quite saying that is the way it should be, only that if there was a judge or panel that really had to decide such a thing, your case would have a roughly equal chance of winning against the claim that the Lawful Good listing should stand. [snip] [snip] > Now I think that we probably do agree on one fundamental thing: that > some of the things Stefan is described as doing or not doing are at odds > with his presumed character. It's in how we are *choosing* to > handle/deal with this disparity where we disagree. I just don't think > that your way is any more valid (or, admittedly, any *less* valid) than > my way. Wahoo! Consensus! (At least, between us on this point. I'll take what I can get. ;) [snip] > >> Not *the* font of ALL good things. Just *a* font of SOME good > things. That's not such a stretch, really. << > > Put that way, no. Put in a way that gives him credit for the (positive, > but probably not the negative Desmond II Kelvin stuff) goings on at > Kelvin but absolving him of what happened in Halag/Fort Doom, I do think > that's a bit of a stretch in many ways. I'm not aware of the negative Kelvin stuff that I assume comes from WotI-era materials. (If it's in Gaz 1, please point me in the right direction.) Perhaps its a stretch, but I'm not prepared to argue the point further. I think we've agreed to disagree, and to not throw hissy fits at each other when there are multiple reasonable interpretations. It's the apparent assertions that only contrary interpretations to mine are reasonable that really gets my goat. And, if I'm being very honest, the evil interpretation, which you are willing to accept, is not one I'm willing to accept. I continue to actually oppose that view as being a reasonable interpretation of canon. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 18:31:28 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BMYSTARA=5D_Mystara=B4s_Map_Navigator?= In-Reply-To: ; from hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:42:40AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:42:40AM +0100, H�vard wrote: > > Very confusing :) > I'm still wondering where the original spelling error comes from. Is the > name Bengarian Hermitage mentioned in Saga of the Shadow Lord? I think it's mentioned on the map as Bengarian and in the text as Bensarian. I'll check tonight if I remember! :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:30:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Another shade of your argument is that people can have good intentions and > behave evilly. That's something I also disagree with. In the examples you > chose, I would argue that the intentions were never actually good. > Well, I guess that we disagree on that then. > > Well, the abovementioned people's evil behavior stemmed from their > > original good intentions. If you disagree with that, then I won't spend > > time convincing you, but it's factually true. > > It's /not/ factually true, and you beg the question by saying so. > Milosevic's original intentions were to help the Serb minority in Kosovo who were maltreated by the Albanian majority (an arguably good intention). You can find references to that with some research into the topic. > Anyone who takes an "any means to the ends" approach, and then chooses horrific > means is evil. One good result for a small number of people at the cost of > countless horrifically bad results is not what I call a good intention. > Yet that was what Stefan has done. He has produced good result for a small number of people (himself and his followers) at the cost of bad results for many people (the native population). I have yet to see you offer any clearly GOOD results for Traladarans (I don't consider new roads and cities GOOD per se). > There's a nuance here that's important. A good person who realises something > they have done is wrong or harmful will feel bad and will not continue such > behaviour, and might reasonably try to prevent others from making that same > mistake. A very good person will also attempt to make amends. A neutral > person might say, "Well, I guess I won't do that again," but might not feel > that bad about it, nor make especial effort to prevent it in the future. An > evil person will simply evaluate whether it gets them what they want. > Well, Stefan never made any amends or seemed to feel any remorse for the harmful things that he and his followers have done. Indeed, he is still continuing the same policies, so he hasn't promised "not to do it again" either. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:32:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I've since retracted my statement that he supported Stefan or was on friendly Sorry if my replies to various topics seem to be late, but I operate in a different time zone than many and therefore read my mail late :) > terms. I still think that Nikelnevich would have a moral obligation to oust > Stefan if he thought the Duke was so unfit to rule that Traladarans were > suffering under his rule. > Not if it would get him and his followers killed without producing any result. He isn't morally obligated to be stupid. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:36:47 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > However, it doesn't actually answer the point that the effective change in > lifestyle to Traladaran peasants in question that came immediately with the > change in the identity of who ruled them was not really noticeable. > Well, having foreign rulers FORCEFULLY install themselves to rule you, imposing new taxes and regulations, and in many cases slaughtering everyone who disagreed with them, is probably pretty noticeable. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:40:52 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I'm not aware of the negative Kelvin stuff that I assume comes from WotI-era > materials. (If it's in Gaz 1, please point me in the right direction.) > In Gaz1 Desmond Kelvin is described as "dark", "brooding", "ambitious", and "out for himself". Now, he's not evil (he does have some redeeming qualities), but he's not your nice local baron. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:41:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mystara=B4s?= Map Navigator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon McCormick wrote: > > I think it's mentioned on the map as Bengarian and > in the text as Bensarian. I'll check tonight if > I remember! :) > I think this has to do with the fact that the letters "g" and "s" in the font used on Mystaran maps look somewhat similar. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:51:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E9FA1.DED2C036@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Derek Adam wrote: [snip] > > I'm not disputing that. They suffered when there was a trasition of > > government, and during the disarray there were Thyatian opportunists > > that victimized Traladarans. I just don't think they /continue/ to suffer, > > and I think that the Traladarans overall finally benefitted from Stefan's > > rule. > > > Well, there are plenty of canon indications that Traladarans continue to > suffer (and the Black Eagle Barony is only the most obvious example). My point is that Traladarans that are ruled by Stefan (obviously, not those in Black Eagle) do not suffer for his rule, and indeed have benefitted. [snip] > > Well, in the description of the Cult of Halav, it says he frustrates > > them in their attempts to convince him he's Halav. > > > Perhaps he frustrates them by failing to act like Halav (which is also > somewhat indicative of whether he is Halav-like Lawful Good). Still, > this does not indicate that he hates or suppresses them. True, but then he doesn't hate or suppress anyone. It's religious freedom to let them have their beliefs but then not actually agree with them. And, I believe the point of the line that he frustrated them, was that he didn't let them convince him he was the incarnation of Halav. I don't think it was trying to say that he didn't act in a way that Halav might have. > > I don't want you to shut up, I just want you to not make inflammatory > > comparisons. You later said you didn't intend to draw parallels to > > Hitler and I accept that, but I was not the only person to think that was > > what you were doing. > > > Well, why do you get so riled up about comparing a fictional character? > Do you love Stefan so much that you can't stand him being compared to > someone worse? Actually, it wasn't that you were comparing a fictional character (Stefan) to Hitler, it was that you were deliberately ignoring the contrast between evil and good in the apparent comparison and calling them the same thing. It was the apparent use of moral relativism to try to make evil=good that really cheesed me. If you were looking for an apology for my knee-jerk reaction, you should already have it in your mailbox. [snip] > > >So now you consider an ambitious, scheming man who has no regard for > > >anyone else's wellbeing, least of all Traladarans', a "good ruler"? > > > > You beg the question here. I do not believe Stefan is without regard > > for others' well-being. I think he does care about the Traladarans. > > > Well, you missed it, but in the above I meant Desmond Kelvin, whom you > declared a "good ruler". Ah, sorry I missed that, but it was a little vague who you were referring to. I am lacking information on the matter with Kelvin, however. I must go back to my references and read up on it. I'll see then if it convinces me that Kelvin has no regard for anyone else' wellbeing. [snip] (What immediately follows is a description of how I would classify the morals of a theoretical rebel that Solmyr described. The effort was to clarify how I generally assign alignment, and whether I'm consistent about it.) > > No, I would classify his morals as neutral (perhaps with some good > > tendencies). The key point is that he doesn't see anything wrong with > > killing and harming innocents in his quest. Now, if he felt bad about > it > > and endeavoured to prevent such harm, then I would change my tune. He > gets > > > Well, Stefan doesn't see anything wrong with destroying Traladaran > culture, Stefan doesn't destroy Traladaran culture, but embraces it and adds to it. Their church, their beliefs, their customs, etc., are not destroyed. > killing Traladarans who don't agree with him. Actually, the only Traladarans that died directly under Stefan's rule were attackers using lethal force. They weren't simply "disagreeing" with him. > He doesn't seem > to be feeling bad about it either, since to his mind they are wrong and > he is right. Correct, but my clarification above is necessary. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> No matter how much better life might be, I can't see any Russian > peasants preferring to live under foreign overlords as opposed to their > own ones. << > > When it comes right down to it, most people in the world seem to prefer > native despots over even a "decent" foreign regime. Yes. This explains the unrest during the governmental transition. > Now, someone might > say "but I live in Canada, and its head of State is the Queen of > England, and I don't mind" - yah, but you're not governed by them, and > if Queen Liz decided to "trade" you to the Duke of Sussex (or whatever) > and sent said Duke over to rule you (to *really* rule you, dispensing > with your own government and instituting his own vision, combined with > replacing not only the Canadian Parliament but all the "important" > Provincial rulers with guys who come with him from England - including > his not-so-great Cousin, who he appoints to rule your Province) - well, > I just don't think folks would be happy campers under such conditions. Well, let's try to take a more realistic and a still real-world example from the same place. When the French lost to England, the Habitants really /were/ traded to England, and they continue to be a part of Canada, within the Commonwealth. I think this is a better comparison, since we are talking post- Renaissance period RW, which more closely resembles Mystara. > And, as Solmyr pointed out, folks weren't generally happy with what they > saw as foreign regimes ruling them "even" in the Middle Ages, > *especially* when the religion differed even mildly (and it differs more > than mildly between the Traladaran and "Karameikan" faiths). I wouldn't say the differences are so much. Also, to continue the comparison, I should point out that the ruling English were Protestant, and the subjected French were Roman Catholic. Perhaps the differences in religion are milder (you can be the judge of that), but the point is that in both cases (RW and fantasy), the two religions were defended and promoted. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:13:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> I've since retracted my statement that he supported Stefan or was on > friendly terms. I still think that Nikelnevich would have a moral > obligation to oust Stefan if he thought the Duke was so unfit to rule > that Traladarans were suffering under his rule. << > > Now apply that same reasoning to Stefan in the case of Ludwig. > > Ok, you might reply that "he doesn't know" - but remember, when he > *does* know, *he* doesn't oust Ludwig - others (the Hin) do it, while he > stands asside, washing his hands of the matter. I'm not familiar with this body of canon, as I've said before. From what I've heard on the list, though, the argument can be made that this was an expedient and effective way to oust Ludwig, while not exposing the rest of his country to other attacks. However, I'm not the best person to be arguing this point. I should let someone else take the charge. > As I said earlier on in this, *I* felt he had a moral obligation to oust > Ludwig. . .if he was a good man of integrity who took responsibility for > his actions/decisions/mistakes and understood his obligations. Well, it seems he /did/ effectively oust Ludwig. Still, as I said, I don't have these references available to make a proper argument. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:15:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > >> Well, Stefan doesn't see anything wrong with destroying Traladaran > culture, killing Traladarans who don't agree with him. He doesn't seem > to be feeling bad about it either, since to his mind they are wrong and > he is right. << > > Point again about the MoH: he doesn't go around in Sind slaughtering the > Sindhi, or even their rulers, and doesn't seem to have done much to > displace Sindhi culture or even religion (though perhaps it's early and > he will try). > > So which one of them is bad? "The MoH because he hangs around with > humanoids" isn't a good answer, btw. Isn't the MoH the same Master one that starts a slaughtering, rampaging war across the Known World in X4/5? -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:18:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EACC6.1AD9544B@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Derek Adam wrote: > > > > A good Stefan doubtless would have lost some sleep over it, but he > would > > still make the same choice. > > > But would a good Stefan then immdediately seek to profit from it, making > a lucrative deal with his homeland's enemies? > I'd think that a good Stefan, if he had to break the treaty, would at > least have stayed completely neutral, not seeking any benefits from it. We're getting away from the realm of where I can seek sources to continue the argument, unfortunately, so I will give this conditional answer: I would say that if his actions were in the interest of the greater good, then he can still be considered good. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:16:39 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > My point is that Traladarans that are ruled by Stefan (obviously, not those in > Black Eagle) do not suffer for his rule, and indeed have benefitted. > In his view. Clearly, many (most?) of them don't see it that way. > Actually, it wasn't that you were comparing a fictional character (Stefan) to > Hitler, it was that you were deliberately ignoring the contrast between evil > and good in the apparent comparison and calling them the same thing. > > It was the apparent use of moral relativism to try to make evil=good that > really cheesed me. > Well (can you see that I like to start my phrases with that word? :) I happen to believe that there are VERY few examples of pure good or pure evil in any world, real or fictional. IMO most people fall somewhere in between. But that's another topic for discussion I guess. > Ah, sorry I missed that, but it was a little vague who you were referring to. > I am lacking information on the matter with Kelvin, however. I must go back to > my references and read up on it. I'll see then if it convinces me that Kelvin > has no regard for anyone else' wellbeing. > See a previous post. > Stefan doesn't destroy Traladaran culture, but embraces it and adds to it. > Their church, their beliefs, their customs, etc., are not destroyed. > He does destroy parts of it that don't suit his vision of Karameikos. > Actually, the only Traladarans that died directly under Stefan's rule were > attackers using lethal force. They weren't simply "disagreeing" with him. > Well, they were defending their country against foreign domination. That's not aggression. I know you hate when I mention Hitler, so I won't do it directly this time, but here's an example: When Germans invaded USSR and established their rule over a large part of its western territories, local partisans often staged uprisings, and more than likely got killed. Would you consider these partisans "attackers using lethal force" (possibly yes) and thus deserving to die? And before you mention it, I'm not drawing parallels between Stefan's rule in Traladara and the Germans' rule in Russia. I'm just asking if you think armed resistance by natives against foreign conquerors is justified. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:21:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: i need your help please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit due to a recent format c: (one more time) I have lost most of your addresses. It would be nice of you to drop me a line , especialy people with who i am working with on a project... thibault sarlat thibsylv@club-internet.fr ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:18:34 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Well, let's try to take a more realistic and a still real-world example from > the same place. When the French lost to England, the Habitants really /were/ > traded to England, and they continue to be a part of Canada, within the > Commonwealth. I think this is a better comparison, since we are talking post- > Renaissance period RW, which more closely resembles Mystara. > You are forgetting the strong local movement to separate Quebec from the rest of Canada. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:29:39 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EB3D6.B86B0C0E@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: [snip] > > > Well, the abovementioned people's evil behavior stemmed from their > > > original good intentions. If you disagree with that, then I won't > > > spend time convincing you, but it's factually true. > > > > It's /not/ factually true, and you beg the question by saying so. > > > Milosevic's original intentions were to help the Serb minority in Kosovo > who were maltreated by the Albanian majority (an arguably good > intention). You can find references to that with some research into the > topic. Not arguing that helping an oppressed minority is a potentially good intention. What I *am* arguing is that using Serbian nationalism and general revenge feelings to attempt/allow genocide is evil, regardless of whether Serbs were originally repressed. This is what I'm getting at with the "any means to an end" explanation. Hope that helps. > > Anyone who takes an "any means to the ends" approach, and then chooses > horrific > > means is evil. One good result for a small number of people at the > cost of > > countless horrifically bad results is not what I call a good > intention. > > > Yet that was what Stefan has done. He has produced good result for a > small number of people (himself and his followers) at the cost of bad > results for many people (the native population). This is what I think we are down to arguing about: I think the results for the Traladarans were not bad, and that they benefitted to some extent. The good results were in the common good, not simply patronage. > I have yet to see you > offer any clearly GOOD results for Traladarans (I don't consider new > roads and cities GOOD per se). I guess this is really where we differ. > > There's a nuance here that's important. A good person who realises > something > > they have done is wrong or harmful will feel bad and will not continue > such > > behaviour, and might reasonably try to prevent others from making that > same > > mistake. A very good person will also attempt to make amends. A > neutral > > person might say, "Well, I guess I won't do that again," but might not > feel > > that bad about it, nor make especial effort to prevent it in the > future. An > > evil person will simply evaluate whether it gets them what they want. > > > Well, Stefan never made any amends or seemed to feel any remorse for the > harmful things that he and his followers have done. This view is partly a result of the fact that we disagree about whether the good of his rule outweighed the early problems. If we see his rule as being for the betterment of the common good in the end, then amends have already been made, and Stefan can still be good. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:32:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EB446.6746C89D@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I've since retracted my statement that he supported Stefan or was on > friendly > > Sorry if my replies to various topics seem to be late, but I operate in > a different time zone than many and therefore read my mail late :) > > > terms. I still think that Nikelnevich would have a moral obligation > to oust > > Stefan if he thought the Duke was so unfit to rule that Traladarans > were > > suffering under his rule. > > > Not if it would get him and his followers killed without producing any > result. He isn't morally obligated to be stupid. True, but the fact is he /could/ work secretly if he had such a moral obligation. This wouldn't be stupid, and would have the potential to produce results while reducing the risk to his flock. The fact is, he doesn't so conspire. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:37:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EB53F.9E75375F@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > However, it doesn't actually answer the point that the effective > change in > > lifestyle to Traladaran peasants in question that came immediately > with the > > change in the identity of who ruled them was not really noticeable. > > > Well, having foreign rulers FORCEFULLY install themselves to rule you, > imposing new taxes and regulations, and in many cases slaughtering > everyone who disagreed with them, is probably pretty noticeable. 1) He didn't "slaughter everyone who disagreed with them." He put down rebellion. There is a vast difference. 2) The overall quality of life for the average peasant probably didn't change that much with a change of overlords (where they existed). In cases where there were *new* owners, clearly some were bad and some were good. (This, btw, is a different point than the original one, but a fair observation, nonetheless.) -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:44:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EB634.BFB46522@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I'm not aware of the negative Kelvin stuff that I assume comes from > > WotI-era materials. (If it's in Gaz 1, please point me in the right > > direction.) > > > In Gaz1 Desmond Kelvin is described as "dark", "brooding", "ambitious", > and "out for himself". Now, he's not evil (he does have some redeeming > qualities), but he's not your nice local baron. Thank you. Good points. I think I would categorize Kelvin's rule on that basis as effective and generally promoting the common good, but that his personal morals are probably closer to LN. That is, he promotes the common good because it is simply in his best interests and he generally doesn't take evil actions. Fair? -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:56:15 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EBE97.172A571F@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: [snip] > > Stefan doesn't destroy Traladaran culture, but embraces it and adds to > > it. Their church, their beliefs, their customs, etc., are not destroyed. > > He does destroy parts of it that don't suit his vision of Karameikos. Like? The existing power structures? Those aren't bastions of culture. They are necessarily modified or removed with a new government. > > Actually, the only Traladarans that died directly under Stefan's rule > > were attackers using lethal force. They weren't simply "disagreeing" with > > him. > > > Well, they were defending their country against foreign domination. Strictly speaking, they were already dominated by a foreign power. The locals had been mostly complacent about it until Stefan arrived and the local powerful families thought to take advantage of the situation. > That's not aggression. I know you hate when I mention Hitler, so I won't > do it directly this time, but here's an example: When Germans invaded > USSR and established their rule over a large part of its western > territories, local partisans often staged uprisings, and more than > likely got killed. Would you consider these partisans "attackers using > lethal force" (possibly yes) and thus deserving to die? I wouldn't say they were "deserving" to die, no. The chief difference is that USSR was not already conquered and stable, while Traladara was. > And before you mention it, I'm not drawing parallels between Stefan's > rule in Traladara and the Germans' rule in Russia. I'm just asking if > you think armed resistance by natives against foreign conquerors is > justified. Yes, I think armed resistance against conquerors is reasonable and justifiable. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:15:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Good King Stefan First, a couple of brief (very brief for me) replies to some other mails, included in this one just because of a) to cut down on the number of mails and b) my laziness. 1) Regarding the MoH and War: well, I'm not sure that starting a bloody war is dispositive proof of evil, nor is it dispositive proof of the goodness of those nations who rally to the defense of the attacked party. I'm sure that fans of Alphatia, for instance, wouldn't accept that as enough in and of itself (Alphatia declares war on Glantri, MoH declares war on Darokin. Various nations rally to Darokin's side. Various nations rally to Glantri's side. The invasion of Darokin is somewhat bloody, the Alphatia-Glantri-etc war results in the death of millions. Immortals manipulated the participants into it in both cases. There are reasons why I might take one view of certain participants, but the fact of the war isn't a major one; nations fight. If Furyondy invaded Iuz, that wouldn't by itself make Furyondy evil and Iuz good. I went on blathering longer here than I intended to originally.) 2) What was the other one going to be? Oh, yah: the Karameikos/Canada analogy. Ok, I made the analogy as close to the Karameikan situation as possible, but lets look at yours. A very significant ongoing effort has been made for over two centuries to try and make the Quebeckers (spelling., I know) feel welcomed in Canada, a part of it and yet, even so: Bloc Quebequoi. >> Ditto for me. I behaved just as badly (or worse?). I've made a few small apologies along these lines in these several threads, but I like yours better. Do you mind if I use it, so long as I give you credit for writing it? << Well, I'm not going to parse who behaved worse. Who knows. Who cares. Appologies accepted, that's enough. As for using my mia culpa version, go right ahead. [snip] [snip] > Now I think that we probably do agree on one fundamental thing: that > some of the things Stefan is described as doing or not doing are at > odds with his presumed character. It's in how we are *choosing* to > handle/deal with this disparity where we disagree. I just don't > think that your way is any more valid (or, admittedly, any *less* > valid) than my way. >> Wahoo! Consensus! (At least, between us on this point. I'll take what I can get. ;) << Well, that's as good a place as any to say live and let live. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:25:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EBF0A.3C360244@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Well, let's try to take a more realistic and a still real-world > > example from the same place. When the French lost to England, the > > Habitants really /were/ traded to England, and they continue to be a part > > of Canada, within the Commonwealth. I think this is a better comparison, > > since we are talking post-Renaissance period RW, which more closely > > resembles Mystara. > > > You are forgetting the strong local movement to separate Quebec from the > rest of Canada. Actually, I'm not forgetting. (BTW: I do happen to live in Canada, so I feel relatively well informed on this topic.) There have been two provincial referendums on the subject, and both indicated that the province wants to stay in Canada. That is, the majority do not support separation. There has been enough support on those two occasions to ask the question, but not enough to make the majority of the electorate decide to try. Moreover, with the exception of the FLQ crisis in the 70s (which was a terrorist action) I think the place has been pretty darned peaceful. One might even draw a parallel between the FLQ crisis and the short-lived unrest of B6 (The Veiled Society), but I'm not that up on history to really commit to that. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:41:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Evil Genius : > First, a couple of brief (very brief for me) replies to some other > mails, included in this one just because of a) to cut down on the number > of mails and b) my laziness. > > 1) Regarding the MoH and War: well, I'm not sure that starting a bloody > war is dispositive proof of evil, nor is it dispositive proof of the > goodness of those nations who rally to the defense of the attacked > party. [long summation of dispositions in WotI deleted] > the fact of the war isn't a major one; nations fight. If Furyondy > invaded Iuz, that wouldn't by itself make Furyondy evil and Iuz good. I > went on blathering longer here than I intended to originally.) Fair enough. The reasons for such conquering need to be weighed somewhat, too. (I don't know the country references you make, btw.) I guess I was just pointing out behavioural differences between the MoH and Stefan. Seeing as the MoH is certainly cast as a villain, comparing him to Stefan seemed a bit skewed, and that was essentially what I was getting at. > 2) What was the other one going to be? Oh, yah: the Karameikos/Canada > analogy. Ok, I made the analogy as close to the Karameikan situation as > possible, but lets look at yours. A very significant ongoing effort has > been made for over two centuries to try and make the Quebeckers > (spelling., I know) feel welcomed in Canada, a part of it and yet, even > so: Bloc Quebequoi. So, what we're both saying, effectively, is that even though the majority of people in such a situation are content with the government, there can still be a significant group of people that aren't. I'll buy that. And, I'll say that could be a pretty good parallel to Karameikos. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:09:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evil Genius wrote: > Btw, does anyone remember the name of that Traladaran guy who was = recruited to teach at the KSoM in one of the PWAs (I think it was II)? = Did they give a level for him? (I myself don't recall, and this is one = of those times when I'm to lazy and indolent to check). Ohh, good call, James. PWAII p.219: Igor Grygorovich of Kelvin is a = Traladaran mage, who teaches ancient Traladaran magic and enchantment = techniques. He is a 27th (!) level mage as of AC1011. Now, did somebody = want to make a point about Traladarans having home-grown mages, or what = was the focus of this particular discussion? (Sorry, I've been deleting = certain keywords heavily lately, 'Good King Stefan' being one of them). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 00:33:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I would say that if his actions were in the interest of the greater good, then > he can still be considered good. > Well, according to the sources those particular actions were for his own greater good (probably for the country's too, but he took the chance to profit off them). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 00:38:10 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > 1) He didn't "slaughter everyone who disagreed with them." He put down > rebellion. There is a vast difference. > The rebels were the people who disagreed with him. > 2) The overall quality of life for the average peasant probably didn't change > that much with a change of overlords (where they existed). In cases where And before you went saying that Traladarans (i.e. the average peasants) benefited from the new rule. Which one is it? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:24:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Thyatis Must Fall! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I used to debate the merits of Thyatis and Karameikos before with someone on this list so no new ground for me here :) At 11/24/00 10:59 AM, you wrote: >But I suspect, but do not know, that this has more to do with a wish to >see Thyatis "completely collapse" than with Renaissance. There's no place for a Roman Empire in the Known World. So, the Thyatian Empire must change. And I rather for the nations of the Isle of Dawn to be real nations than Thyatian protectorates. Of course, there are other regions they are an asset to. The fastest way I see of Thyatis to wake up and see many of the other nations of the Known World have outgrown them is to fall. All in my opinion. >I think, again, but do not know for sure, for example, that if I were to >ask "what does that mean for Karameikos? The difference between Karameikos and Thyatis for me is that Karameikan culture is still in flux whereas Thyatian culture is decaying. If years later Karameikan culture begins to decay and some of the Traladaran culture is reexamined in such a way to bring about a cultural change, I don't think that's a bad thing. But at the moment, Thyatis needs a renaissance. And I think Karameikos is much healthier in that its building its culture from within instead of the Thyatian method of always looking outside itself for revitalization. No one in the empire seems to protest any of the changes Thyatis absorbs because they probably all feel the empire has no goals for its people. >rth, it could be said that Darokin underwent a "complete collapse" but it >is in a Renaissance period none the less, too). Darokin is not in a state of renaissance. It only resembles Europe during the period of the Renaissance. Its not undergoing a cultural change. It will be an interesting nation to watch to see how long capitalism will keep the culture healthy. I didn't feel like redoing all that above so I'm just adding it here. I was thinking of the Age of Colonization and how lands were brought under European rule. I'm thinking along the lines of Thyatis continually expanding their sphere of influence by forcing the Thyatian culture on others. I still believe the Thyatian culture is broke and there's not a real culture to force on others. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:41:34 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 11:03 AM, you wrote: >The definitions used are more cultural/social, not limited to >weapons. See "Level of Civilization" starting p.92 for the description of >the levels. And the description for "Renaissance" is on p.94 I finally found it. Of course I looked through three expecting to find Renaissance in bold. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 00:48:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > He does destroy parts of it that don't suit his vision of Karameikos. > > Like? The existing power structures? Those aren't bastions of culture. They > are necessarily modified or removed with a new government. > I would argue that government structures are indeed part of culture. There were also various holy sites mentioned before that were swept away in Stefan's "civilizing". > > Well, they were defending their country against foreign domination. > > Strictly speaking, they were already dominated by a foreign power. The locals > had been mostly complacent about it until Stefan arrived and the local powerful > families thought to take advantage of the situation. > How long they've been living under foreign occupation has no bearing on whether their rebellion is justified. > The chief difference is that USSR was not already conquered and stable, while > Traladara was. > How does that difference affect anything? > Yes, I think armed resistance against conquerors is reasonable and justifiable. > Then why do you condemn and dismiss such resistance by Traladarans against Stefan? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:10:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EEDD2.6D1CC9BC@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > 1) He didn't "slaughter everyone who disagreed with them." He put > > down rebellion. There is a vast difference. > > > The rebels were the people who disagreed with him. I'm getting a wee bit tired of this. Point 1): disagreement is one thing, armed rebellion is another. Sure, armed rebellion is a form of disagreement, but so is civil discourse. You and I disagree, but we're not drawing swords and trying to kill each other. Point 2): Stefan did not slaughter everyone who disagreed with him. In fact, it's doubtful even that every rebel died. > > 2) The overall quality of life for the average peasant probably didn't > > change that much with a change of overlords (where they existed). In cases > > where > > And before you went saying that Traladarans (i.e. the average peasants) > benefited from the new rule. Which one is it? I have a request: Please try to keep the context of my answers intact. I was saying that for Traladaran peasants with Traladaran overlords, switching to a different, Thyatian, overlord was probably not much of a change in quality of life. That is, such peasants at the time Stefan claimed power didn't suffer for the event. There's no doubt that such Traladaran overlords would be upset by such an event, if any existed in the context we are theorizing, but the peasants wouldn't have actually suffered. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan the Lawful MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > I was wondering if anyone would be interested in > giving their ideas how > they would take some of the bad deeds that have been > attributed to the king > (especially those that see Stefan as evil or > chaotic) and make them into > non-evil actions. Nothing like Stefan's uncle stole > Traladaran lands but > since he was family, Stefan couldn't see it. > Thoughts that adhere to canon > as much as possible but add to it where its needed > to polish away any > blemishes. I've seen a few things I've overlooked > about Karameikos and its > king that I would have to adjust so thought I'd see > if someone would do it > for me :) well I was thinking this needed to be done but there's a fair bit of work and I'm a busy man. My biggest problem would have to be digging through everything, but with the quote in front of me I would be happy to help "flesh events out" so to speak. In fact I think it could be quite fun. Also it will all need to be ensured for it's consistancy. Good idea anyway, would be happy to help. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 18:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) >> Ohh, good call, James. PWAII p.219: Igor Grygorovich of Kelvin is a Traladaran mage, who teaches ancient Traladaran magic and enchantment techniques. He is a 27th (!) level mage as of AC1011. << Woah, ok, that is powerful. >> Now, did somebody want to make a point about Traladarans having home-grown mages, or what was the focus of this particular discussion? << Not really, or at least not at this point. I had vague memories of such a dude but couldn't recall him. Thanks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:27:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > Point 1): disagreement is one thing, armed rebellion is another. Sure, armed > rebellion is a form of disagreement, but so is civil discourse. You and I > disagree, but we're not drawing swords and trying to kill each other. > At least so far :) However, obviously civil discourse didn't work with Stefan. > Point 2): Stefan did not slaughter everyone who disagreed with him. In fact, > it's doubtful even that every rebel died. > Well, it seems like most Traladaran families have lost people in the rebellion. I'd say most of the rebels died, either in the fighting or being executed. > I was saying that for Traladaran peasants with Traladaran overlords, switching > to a different, Thyatian, overlord was probably not much of a change in quality > of life. That is, such peasants at the time Stefan claimed power didn't suffer > for the event. > Well, I understood that, but you previously were also claiming that Traladaran peasants' quality of life increased after Stefan and his Thyatian overlords came to power. I just thought it wasn't consistent. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:31:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EF03B.99D5545B@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > > He does destroy parts of it that don't suit his vision of > Karameikos. > > > > Like? The existing power structures? Those aren't bastions of > culture. They > > are necessarily modified or removed with a new government. > > > I would argue that government structures are indeed part of culture. Government structures, a case can be made for, but I didn't mean that, exactly. What I /said/ was "existing power structures." Like the merchant families, etc. The basic Traladaran governance was in your own admission, locally based. But the culture of the local governance was largely kept. Towns still appoint their own mayors. I think Traladaran estate holders are much like Thyatian estate holders. I think Stefan added to the overall culture of the country without mowing down the original culture. > There were also various holy sites mentioned before that were swept away > in Stefan's "civilizing". Not swept away. They were already forgotten by the the locals when Stefan got there. > > > Well, they were defending their country against foreign domination. > > > > Strictly speaking, they were already dominated by a foreign power. > > The locals had been mostly complacent about it until Stefan arrived and the > > local powerful families thought to take advantage of the situation. > > > How long they've been living under foreign occupation has no bearing on > whether their rebellion is justified. I think it does have bearing. At some point the conquerors necessarily assume some legitimacy. I strongly suspect you disagree with me, but that's the way it worked in classical and mediaevel times. The Thyatians had conquered them more than a generation before, and I think that's plenty long enough, considering things seemed to be humming along smoothly for decades. > > The chief difference is that USSR was not already conquered and > > stable, while Traladara was. > > > How does that difference affect anything? See above. The further explain, the example you give is more like when the Thyatians initially conquered, as opposed to when Stefan took power. > > Yes, I think armed resistance against conquerors is reasonable and > > justifiable. > > > Then why do you condemn and dismiss such resistance by Traladarans > against Stefan? Because it is not resistance to an invasion, but an attempted coup purely motivated by opportunism. Hope that helps. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:43:26 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I think it does have bearing. At some point the conquerors necessarily assume > some legitimacy. I strongly suspect you disagree with me, but that's the way > it worked in classical and mediaevel times. > Actually, no. In classical and medieval times, many rebellions took place hundreds of years after the original conquest. > The Thyatians had conquered them more than a generation before, and I think > that's plenty long enough, considering things seemed to be humming along > smoothly for decades. > As was pointed out, that was because the Thyatians didn't do anything warranting a rebellion. In fact I'd argue that it was when the Thyatians originally annexed Traladara the average peasant didn't notice any change. When Stefan came and began to actively change the whole place, that was definitely noticeable. > > Then why do you condemn and dismiss such resistance by Traladarans > > against Stefan? > > Because it is not resistance to an invasion, but an attempted coup purely > motivated by opportunism. > In your and Stefan's opinion, maybe. In the opinion of Traladarans, a fight for freedom. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:04:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EF949.CF698769@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: [snip] > > Point 2): Stefan did not slaughter everyone who disagreed with him. > > In fact, it's doubtful even that every rebel died. > > > Well, it seems like most Traladaran families have lost people in the > rebellion. I'd say most of the rebels died, either in the fighting or > being executed. Well, I'll try not to quibble about that right now. I can't search references, and it seems unimportant to the argument, since the people responsible for inciting the attempted coup were the opportunistic heads of the big "Families." (Has a Godfather ring to it, doesn't it? ;) > > I was saying that for Traladaran peasants with Traladaran overlords, > switching > > to a different, Thyatian, overlord was probably not much of a change > in quality > > of life. That is, such peasants at the time Stefan claimed power > didn't suffer > > for the event. > > > Well, I understood that, but you previously were also claiming that > Traladaran peasants' quality of life increased after Stefan and his > Thyatian overlords came to power. I just thought it wasn't consistent. I meant /eventually/ their quality of life increased, not immediately. Sorry if that was unclear. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:44:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1EFD1E.82F9FD9@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > I think it does have bearing. At some point the conquerors > necessarily assume > > some legitimacy. I strongly suspect you disagree with me, but that's > the way > > it worked in classical and mediaevel times. > > > Actually, no. In classical and medieval times, many rebellions took > place hundreds of years after the original conquest. Yes, and in some cases all rebellions were put down and eventually the country was completely stable. Look, if no conquering power ever gains any legitimacy, then practically every established country in Europe is an illegitimate power. The fact is, the world is not just a series of tiny city-states and our governments /do/ have legitimacy. I contend that it's reasonable to say that Stefan had a legitimate claim, and that it was not evil for him to put down the rebellion. I also say that the artificers of that rebellion were really motivated by self- interest, not humanitarian reasons. Their actions created a situation where many Traladarans died fruitlessly. > > The Thyatians had conquered them more than a generation before, and I > > think that's plenty long enough, considering things seemed to be humming > > along smoothly for decades. > > > As was pointed out, that was because the Thyatians didn't do anything > warranting a rebellion. Neither did Stefan. The rebellion happened immediately after he stated he was the new local ruler. He hadn't done anything warranting attack, it was simply seen by some as an opportunity to claim power for themselves. > In fact I'd argue that it was when the Thyatians > originally annexed Traladara the average peasant didn't notice any > change. When Stefan came and began to actively change the whole place, > that was definitely noticeable. > > > > Then why do you condemn and dismiss such resistance by Traladarans > > > against Stefan? > > > > Because it is not resistance to an invasion, but an attempted coup > > purely motivated by opportunism. > > > In your and Stefan's opinion, maybe. In the opinion of Traladarans, a > fight for freedom. I'm sure that's how the Traladarans were rallied for the rebellion. No doubt. It remains, however, that it was an attempted coup on a ruler with a valid claim. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Traladaran holy sites? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001121102139.007d4180@lby3.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Okay, first off I wanted to apologize for having to leave this thread right in the middle of a very interesting discussion (no, I do't think it's _quite_ reached flame war status): I work Wednesdays, and I must plead "holiday" (read: cooking all day) yesterday. Its been tough sorting through these 300 or so emails, but I'll try to reply to everything immediately relevant to my position in this thread. I apologize to anyone I inadvertantly miss in my replies. On 11/21/00 12:21 PM, lby3@LBY3.COM wrote: > I tuned out the Stephan-is-the-embodiment of evil conversations (sorry, > but along with Alphatia/Thyatis and how to convert elves to 3E, there's > only so much I can take of the subject) but ... Fort Doom, Krakatos and > Kelvin are over Traladaran holy sites? Huh? As others have since pointed out, Krakatos and Kelvin are located over Traladaran holy sites. As for Halag, I did say in my original post in this regard that I _presumed_ that there was a holy site located in this region, as Traladaran holy sites are technically just historic sites from the distant Traldar past. Sorry for any confusion. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 3:49 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > No one's ever really been able to show how Stefan might have earned their > loyalty honestly, either. So one does end up with the conclusion that Cult of > Personality propaganda is responsible. And, after all these posts, no one has yet offered, IMNSHO, a viable example which explains the supposed "loyalty" of the Traladarans to Stefan. Of course, as a side note, I think that this thread has gone woefully off-topic. The original issues were, IIRC, regarding a discussion of possible _alternate_ interpretations of Stefan's behavior as given in the printed materials. Since then, the conversation has degenerated to a "am not - are so" alignment argument, mixed with the all-too-common Canon problem, and confusing "Renaissance" and "philosophical" nitpicks. I realize that a few people in this thread joined late, but we were not proposing that "canon is wrong," etc., but that the information presented therein is so vague in its presentation of Stefan as L(G), and so persistent in its presentation of his morally ambiguous acts, that it can be argued that there is an alternate view of Stefan as, shall we say, less than good. We thought to propagate discussion on this, alternate, view. Where things went ugly was when certain people insisted on judging our views as fundamentally "wrong" because they reinterpreted the Holy Writ of canon. We have presented evidence for our views here, as have the members of the "other side." I, of course, believe that the preponderance of the evidence is on the side represented by Evil Genius, Solmyr, Giampaolo, and myself. However, I fully expect that others disagree. I have only asked in my responses that these others explain their own position, independent of "because Canon says so" arguments, which they have not, again IMO, successufully done. Printed material is not a holy text, and is not irrefutable. We enjoy this game because of its mutability to what we wish to get from it, and so the point of the conversation (as well as of my Traladara Mini-Gaz) was to challenge your thoughts in regards to another possible view of King Stefan. I know that I will not change your minds, and you know that you will not change mine. I am interested in presenting my thoughts on the subject nonetheless, and I am interested in you presenting yours. Unfortunately, so long as you continue to do nothing but hide behind "But Canon says he's LG, so he's LG" (which is legitimate if we're examining printed stats, but the point is to look at alternative interpretations of the printed character _actions_) arguments, rather than present your own interpretations. I'm sorry to see that there are still, after all these years, people on this list who cannot look at the material as a jumping-off point to their own creative thought, rather than as holy law, written in immutable stone. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: New site In-Reply-To: <3A1AFF96.50FB1E44@libero.it> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 4:04 PM, agathokles@LIBERO.IT wrote: >> I got an error message: "La pagina che stai cercando non esiste!" > > The correct one should be http://digilander.iol.it/lordnihil/index.html Doh! I should've caught that. Thank you, Giampaolo. :-) Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 4:04 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> "...These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit >>> themselves...." << > > I know what you're driving at, and David Knott made a similar (though less > full) assesment yesterday Yes, it came in late for me, and so I only caught it after I wrote this assessment, My apologies to David, and to anyone else that I bored with my verbosity :-) > However, I have to admit that overall I've been "reluctant" to come right out > and assert categorically that Stefan is Evil (though, again, if, as you point > out, one looks at his *actions* and evaluates his behavior without bias, it's > pretty clear what his behavior indicates as far as alignment. Yes, Lando > Molari might, sometimes, do some nice, endearing things, he might even, we > could say, be a tragic figure who at many times meant well, especially for his > people. But that does not make Lando Molari "Good" or even "Neutral". Indeed, > his tragedy is that he is evil, dispite the things one might see as likable in > him). Well, I do hate to pursue something as subjective (and thus fundamentally hollow) as an alignment discussion, but calling that one was certainly fun. :-) My point was to show that there are a good number of alternate views of Stefan, just in using the "canon" material. Once you remove yourself from the "canon says he's LG" straightjacket, there are nearly infinte possibilities in regards to his character. For what appears on the surface to be a flat, inconsistent character, Allston certainly sis give him at least the _potential_ of complexity. And so, insofar as you take that tack to approach things, your CN, my LE, and anyone else's LG are equally legitimate. It just bothers me that I'm willing to accept that people might _choose_ to see Stefan as LG (because *they* choose it, rather than because it's what was printed on paper), but they're not willing to accept that he might be LE, to me, or CN, to you with equal legitimacy. > Anything that stands in the way of Stefan's quest for self-agrandizement is > disposable. Anything that doesn't directly help him, he's indifferent to (as > long as the depridations of Ludwig & the others who are despoiling Traladarans > in his name don't threaten Stefan's interests, he's indifferent to what's > going on, and doesn't bother himself with it. But we can see how very *fast* > and how very *decisive* he can be when a opportunity appears that might be to > his benifit. No dithering then. No fussing then. No not being able to notice > then. He pounces on issues very quickly when there's something in it for good > old Stefan). Yes, that's one of my biggest sticking points with his character. I think that Stefan is a classic wolf in (dirtied) sheep's clothing. And I have a very hard time seeing how anyone could overlook the evidence pointing to that, yet look at the very next line and see the "untarnished" version. (*shrug*) My problem, I guess. :-) > Now, to Stefan's Sycophants, which is it? Stefan is too indecisive, so we must > forgive him for not dealing with things, or Stefan is a dynamic, decisive > ruler? Being "blind to things" only when it serves your interest to be blind > to them, and having one's eyes wide open every time that's to your advantage > is NOT a principled position of a man of integrity. Only if you are so morally relativistic that you think a man's intentions count for more than his actions. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Mystaran Hex maps In-Reply-To: <3A1B017D.EF1655FF@libero.it> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 4:13 PM, agathokles@LIBERO.IT wrote: > Thibault Sarlat wrote: >> >>>> yes of course there is a prog. it's called grid cartography >>>> (freeware). >>>> you can get it from my site (www.mystara.com.bi) >>>> >>> Is it compatible with Macs? >> >> i am not sure of it? can you try it and let me know... >> i doubt it does but you never know > > Since it is an executable (as an opposite to source code) I don't think > you will be able to execute it on anything not compatible with MS-DOS. I > don't know whether Macs have a DOS emulation somewhere, unfortunately. > -- > Too bad. :-( If anyone ever finds a compatible version, or decent equivalent (short of Photoshop, for which I just don't have the $500 or so), please feel free to mail me. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan's Rationalizations for Selling Out Thyatis In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 4:15 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> (why do you think he built all those fortresses in England? >>> For postcards?). > > Of course. He knew that in a millenium or so, they'd make great tourist > attractions, so, duh, that's why he built them. Now *that's* foresight. ;-) > >>> and Harald Hardrada, who was a Danish contender. << > > And a former Varangian Guardsman in Constantinople. 8-) I wasn't aware of that, but I'm certainly interested in a brief description, if you care to write me privately...I don't think anyone else is up to a history lesson. :-)) >>> 3) Being the strongest doesn't make you a hero. << > > Yah. Another (apt) analogy: Zendrolion "won", he got to write the history > books after he sold out and betrayed his friend. Does that make him a pure > hero? Precisely my point. >Seems to be Chris's argument that Stefan can do whatever it takes, so > long as he succeeds ("nothing succeeds like success"), he'll be remembered > well, and that will validate everything he did and make him a good man. Nothing against its specific proponents, but I find this view to be particularly insidious. Through history, the idea that victory/success justifies any means taken to achieve said victory or success has led to untold human suffering. . But the fact remains that no matter what justifications are applied after the fact, a rewrite of history cannot a hero make. Being able to make yourself _appear_ good by justifying your actions does not erase the negative fallout of your actions. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Traladara Mini-Gaz Comments In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 5:11 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > Or what's that show, "Early > Sedition", where the guy gets yesterday's paper tommorrow. He's pretty > Paladin-like. > Most of these shows ("Stalker*: Texas Deranger" is another one) Hmmm... "Early Sedition" (Traladaran anti-Stefan propaganda in the early years of the grand Duchy?) and "Stalker: Texeiras Deranger" (a nature-loving beserker of the Savage Coast)? Have to catch those sometimes. :-) > Now, there are certainly times when noble heroism opposed to vile villany is > appropriate, usually tragic instances (King Arthur & the Knights of the Round > Table vs. Mordred's hordes. The valiant Thyatians holding off the despoiling > hordes of Alphatia, etc). Thincol as Arthur? Ida' know, I think I'll have to pass on that particular image. ;-) > > Yah. . .well, there are clearly "have one's cake and eat it too" arguments > going on. . .I've already talked about double-standards in these contexts, > though. Yeah, and unfortunately, things only went downhill after this point. >But we digress. > People may insist upon opening up this can of worms for further discssion, but > I'll warn that if that happens the response will make discussions about > Alphatia look like a church social.] No, I didn't mean to lead things in that direction. I was just repeating something interesting I had read which did _not_ charge that there had been fraud, but rather suggested in a humorous manner that if there were, it would doubtless (given the strange nature of local politics in Florida) have been directed elsewhere. The whole thing was my misguided attempt at analogy in referring to something I don't even fully recall anymore. Sorry. :-) > In any case, I like these lists because fantasy is a welcome distraction, if > only momentarily, from the wickedness, deciet, and perfidy found in real life. > For some reason, the wickedness, deciet, and perfidy of fantasy characters and > realms is just so much more relaxing a topic of discussion. So lets, please, > stick with that. Of course. Again, I apologize if I brought some ugly RW stuff into it. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <974853521.3a1b1591f3109@members.uniserve.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 6:38 PM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: > Canon gives the results of his actions (or inaction) without ascribing intent > to them. It's expected that you interpolate his intent with his alignment: > Lawful Neutral. Jenn and Evil Genius are not doing this. That's their choice > in their campaigns, of course, but the statements being made imply that only > this view of the materials is reasonable and correct. I heartily disagree. I > think it is /not/ incompatible to keep both his alignment and the events as > listed in canon materials. My statements were never intended to "imply that only this view of the materials is reasonable and correct." My entire point was that there are different interpretations of the material (one of which is my own, of course), which are equally legitimate, BUT that these views are legitimized because of people's belief in them, through their presentation of what they believe is evidence of such, NOT "because it said so, and so no other view is 'right.'" Therefore, I'm not the one claiming that only one view is "reasonable and correct." You want Stefan to be LG? Show me where he acts LG, and I'll have no proble. with it. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 7:56 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> You folks are saying Stefan is evil because << > > I'm saying he's not a good ruler. He is NOT "Good King Stefan". That's very > clear. > Yes, I am saying that I believe that Stefan is not a good ruler. In fact, I believe that he might be best characterized as LE, at the extremes of his behavior. Others (E.G.) believe that he is not a good ruler, and perhaps best characterized as CN. I'm okay with that, too. I hold my beliefs because I have read and interpreted the material as such, and I gave "my" evidence in previous posts (see the digests if you missed them). I disagree with your (Chris, et. al.) LG view, but I defend your right to hold it. And now I'm questioning why you're not defending my right to hold my belief equally? Dogmatism is not conducive to creative thought. :-( >>> just because it is a cool idea doesn't change the canon though. << > > And canon is what I have indicated. > > I notice that I take my examples straight out of canon, while those who are > asserting that Stefan is a good king have hardly ever done so - they have few > examples, and only isolated ones. Precisely. We have taken evidence out of the printed material and interpreted it according to what appears logical. I WANT to hear your evidence for Stefan being LG, but all anyone has managed to answer along these lines (that I've read) is that it's that way because it's printed that way because the writers said so... Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001121210155.009eab40@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/21/00 10:09 PM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: > Hello, Mystarans! Its been a long time since I've been on this list so I'm > rather pleased to rejoin and find my personal favorite area of the Known > World a hot topic of discussion. Or, at least, its king :) Welcome back, Tim. I just recently re-joined, too, and it's fun to jump in with both feet, no? ;-) > > At 11/21/00 11:56 AM, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >> It was also obvious to me that the native people of >> this land, the Traladarans, were being sytematically stripped of their >> culture, as evidenced in K:KoA in the push for "New Karameikans" (which >> seemed to me to be similar to the old push for a generation of "New >> Soviets," or - though in less malignant ways, admittedly - the Hitler >> Youth). > > Hmm, that's an interesting position. Not that there's a push to establish > a new people but to compare it to Soviets or Nazis. An extreme comparison, yes. I admitted as much myself. I was not comparing Stefan's reign to the extremes of the depradations of the Nazis, but to the push to establish a "new generation" of youth loyal to the power structure, I could just as well compare it to the Nazi movement or Communists, as to the Young Republicans or various religious youth organizations. The point was not to politicize the duscussion, or to demonize Stefan as a "Nazi", but to give a broadly accessible example of institutions which have establish programs to "integrate" youth into a new cultural ideal. > Now I may be wrong (I could check the books but where's the thrill of > living dangerously there?) :-) >but did Stefan commission the new painting? IIRC, there is no mention of whether he personally commissioned the painting. However, the painting is part of a "New Karameikan" art movement meant to "modernize" Traladaran artwork (interestingly, complete with a Stefan-lookalike Halav, and royal family lookalikes in the crowd...). You can surely see how that would benefit the New Karameikan movement. >And > why, if he'd rather Traladarans to consider the Song of Halav a myth, would > he practically embrace it by paying homage to this myth? I know you came late to the thread, but there was considerable discussion previously on the benefits to Stefans regime by playing off Traladaran culture and religion as myth-based superstitions. Particularly to the CoK, and possibly (depending, again, on your interpretation - I was referring to my tack in my mini-Gaz) to the CoH. >But how does Olliver Jowett feel? Is he > evil? Stefan is a close friend, I believe, and don't people's friends > usually hold the same values as they do? Not necessarily, But I'm not going to go into a slew of potentially leading RW examples of such. :-) > Wait a second. Wasn't one of the reasons Ludwig was so successful in his > tyranny that he was able to keep the king in the dark? Its always been my > understanding that Stefan didn't hear anything about Ludwig that he didn't > hear about every other Thyatian noble. In this sense, Traladarans actually > helped Ludwig by making false accusations on other Thyatian nobles. Add to > that Stefan's predisposition to believe no one in his family could even > imagine such things and you have a king unknowingly making a mistake. I > could even imagine a messenger arriving with proof of Ludwig's deeds being > told by an advisor that the king is much too busy to investigate every one > of his nobles and that accusing the king's cousin of such evil borders on > treason. This has, IIRC, been successfully addressed in my absence by others, so I won't rehash it here unless you really want us to. This thread is way too long already. :-) > Are you sure? Now, my idea of the Church of Karameikos is probably way out > in left field but I've never been able to nail down which Immortals are > worshipped. Even if any Immortals are worshipped. I can't say exactly how > it agrees or disagrees with Thyatian tradition. The Church of Traladara is > much more developed in at least knowing which Immortals are venerated. And > the Church of Karameikos is different in some way from Thyatian but I don't > think its given. i agree that the CoK needed to be developed much more thoroughly. However, I think that you can at least get a pretty good feel off of what there is...I've always been curious as to how a church which is only 30 years old or so could have followers terrified of being excommunicated, but go figure... > > For me, Stefan is a good king. In D&D terms, I would classify him as > Lawful Neutral with good tendencies. I think the character is undetailed > enough that he can be whatever I would like him to be. I think I could > argue that his favorite color is red and might even think I can prove > it. That really doesn't make his favorite color red to anyone but me :) That's the point, after all. "Prove" your argument, and put it out there for all of us to see! I just get upset when people don't ask for _your_ proofs for _your_ arguments, but rather claim that your ideas are automatically invalidated by theirs. > Nice to be back! Natch! :-)) Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good Dinner Guest Stefan In-Reply-To: <20001123015047.2249.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> That much I do agree on! Although reading some of >> Jenn's stuff >> has lead me to look even more critically at >> Karameikos. There is >> much more adventure possibility there than I saw >> before, and I >> always liked Karameikos for it's 'powder keg' like >> nature anyway. I didn't catch who wrote this, but I do appreciate it. My intent was to provide a view of the country from the Traladaran side of things, and to stimulate (hopefully) some good gaming. Thanks for your comments - it is, to me, a great compliment. :-) On 11/22/00 7:50 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > Thats if you can stand jenn's viewpoint on it (nothing > personal but her view of Karameikos clashes with mine, > the work is good quality, and if you want the game > like that fine, but to me it just doesn't say > Karameikos. Well, Chris, that's a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one. I appreciate that you think my work is of "good quality," as I do try to give a thorough product. And yes, we do tend to disagree on the subject, which to me is fine. As a matter of fact, I don't consider your opinion "wrong," though I do enjoy debating the logic/illogic behind it, which you have been at times hard-pressed to sufficiently explain. However, I never said anything along the lines of "Yes, Chris has an opinion, _if you can stand it_." Such a tone can only create bad blood between us. >It would be fine for adventuring in 800 AC > but the world would be far less complex in it's > political issues I feel. For an AC 1000 campaign I > must differ. However I do see as much potential for > adventure, but it has a very different flavor. I think > that is why we dissagree so badly) I would always be interested in seeing an adaptation of my work to an earlier time period. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 4:54 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> Still, I haven't said anyone was making up canon facts. << > > Not you, perhaps (though you have been very dismissive of opinions you don't > share yourself, so I'm not exactly inclined to do otherwise either) but you're > not the only person who's arguing against the position of myself and others. > Chris, for example, has claimed several times that what I and others are > saying isn't in canon - even when our position is explicitly based upon what > is said in canon and we have directly referenced it on numerous occasions. James, I, and the others have given our evidence for our interpretations based upon the printed material. Our problem is that others refuse to do the same for their own interpretations, but instead only repeat ad nauseum that "he's LG because it says so." There's quite a difference between using the printed works as evidence for your own interpretation, and blindly quoting it as dogma. I encourage those supporters of Stefan to logically explain their evidence (outside of the alignment stats, but rather based upon that character's actions) for believing that he is a good ruler. > My entire position is based on the belief that we're allowed to apply our own > judgement in our evaluation of canon events and behavior - not just somewhat > blindly accept a label put on something ("He's Lawful Neutral because it says > so - oh, wait, he's Lawful Good because it says that." - his behavior, > motivations, inclinations, decisions, etc. have remained unchanged. IMO, > that's how one's character {or, if you prefer the AD&D version, "alignment") > is to be evaluated. Exactly my point as well. :-) Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <009701c055b0$64beba00$1ed0893e@philjones> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 6:49 PM, mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK wrote: > This pains me to do this, but unfortunately I have to agree with the > Karameikos-phobes on the subject of Von Hendricks. Karameikos-phobes?..."It's him! AACK!" 8-)~ Seriously, though, I appreciate your effort at understanding both sides of this debate. :-) >The only reason that I can come up with > that the Black Baron is still in power, is simply that he has recruited an > army (quite possibly humanoids) that is large enough to pose a serious > threat to the Karameikan forces (this is what has happened in my campaign). > Stefan would then think twice about attacking Von Hendricks and siezing the > Black Barony by force, as it would leave Karameikos virtually unprotected > against any other hostile force. A decent point, especially for post-WotI Karameikos, where Stefan has the threat of Thyatis at his back if he leaves his eastern border unguarded. However, in the case of the pre-independence Grand Duchy, why then could he not call his troops off the Thyatian border - when -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ he was either (depending on your argument) a Thyatian vassal or an ally? Or was there a threat from Ierendi or Darokin I didn't realize? ;-) Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan and "canon" In-Reply-To: <20001124010343.27080.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 7:03 PM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > I have never said it is not based on canon or derived > from it. Mearly it is non-canon. This is based on your > interpretation of your listed facts from canon. Yes. What is wrong with interpreting events? Interpretation is simply how you, as an individual, read between the lines of something. You do it. I do it. Both our views are equally legitimate. For you to suggest otherwise is hubris. >I do > not dispute them, mearly your conclutions. To me your > conclutions and arguements are not concistant. It > *explicitly* stats stefan is lawful in numerous > sorces, but you say he could be chaotic. How is me > calling that statment non-canon and offering a way to > reconcile canon with canon, rater then just > disregarding the bit's that we don't like. The fact > that it *explicitly* states in numerous canon sorces > (PWA was the one I most recently saw) that stefan is > lawful and fair and even handed, while you interpret > the events in canon as him being unfair, and plain > nasty at times for his good and the good of his > cronies, thus not even handed. Therefore your > interpretations of his intent is NON-CANON. "Canon" says also that he has done some fairly morally ambiguous deeds. I take that view, you take the one out of the stat block (alignment). Both equally valid. And since they each choose a part of the printed work as preferable to another conflicting part, are "non-canon." Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think that you were around for all the "Canon wars" of the past years. They were ugly to say the least, and divided this community for some time. The scars still run deep. But a kind of detente came from those battles, an unspoken truce that says that everyone is entitled to their own views of Mystara. Notice that the "veterans" of this list have not run amok during this discussion screaming "non-canon!" We all (or nearly all) have the books; we know what is printed; we have decided to read it in our own way for the sake of creativity. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ > >> Now, you've decried us, but not him. That's fair to >> an extent - you're on his side in this and vice >> versa. But my point is I think it would be better to >> not lecture just those you disagree with on these >> things. > > I'll lecture anyone who does not understand and thinks > they do, when I believe I can see a problem with their > arguement. You think you do, thus I keep writing back > to you. > > If you think stefan *should* be evil or chaotic, that > is fine, but it is non-canon even if only because > canon says he is lawful, fair and even handed with no > interpretation of his actions. > >>>> What I /do/ say is that you (and others) seem to >> want to attribute evil intent to a character that is >> clearly intended by the authors to be good. << >> >> When the authors say Stefan "sells out his long time >> allies" and "betrays" his homeland, I don't think >> they are saying "interpret this as a good act". > > Not good for thyatis, but that does not make it evil. > lets see if you had to pick between one person dieing > or two, which would a good person pick given no other > choice. This is stefan's situation. He picks the one > person. Thus it is a good action, that is seen as bad, > because the other option is *worse* > > The lesser of two evils. > >>>> Look, not everyone has their references with them >> 24 hrs a day. You seem to say that we require >> chapter and verse listings for an argument to be >> reasonable and worth listening to. << > >> Nope, not at all. What I do expect, though, is that >> folks not claim that I and those arguing the same >> position are ignoring canon, when we're the ones >> referencing it. > > But only the parts that surport your arguement. canon > is holistic not microcosmic. > >> Frankly, I find that offensive. Its >> fine if folks don't have it with them or don't care >> to look things up (On occasions I've said I don't >> have time or am to lazy to look up X, but still >> given my opinion. So I wouldn't object to people >> giving their opinion if they weren't able to look >> things up. But I do object to them claiming that I'm >> ignoring canon when I quote it and they do not). You >> haven't been the worst offender on this score, but >> you've hardly been the soul of civil discourse, >> either. >> >>>> Apparently, canon says his alignment is LG, so >> the burden of proof for the first part lies on you >> to show otherwise. << >> >> Which we've done. > > Then why are we still argueing, obviously your case is > not that strong. > >> Now, if I wanted to be petty, I might say, for >> example in your earlier post on this topic you stood >> ready to defend to the utmost the position that >> Stefan is Lawful Neutral, because you thought canon >> said that, but now you stand ready to defend to the >> end the proposition that Stefan is Lawful Good. His >> behavior hasn't been changed in the meantime. > > The changing in the definition of the alignments was > the swing vote. LN with good tendancies, or LG. > Nothing to do with behaviour. > >> My entire position is based on the belief that we're >> allowed to apply our own judgement in our evaluation >> of canon events and behavior - not just somewhat >> blindly accept a label put on something ("He's >> Lawful Neutral because it says so - oh, wait, he's >> Lawful Good because it says that." - his behavior, >> motivations, inclinations, decisions, etc. have >> remained unchanged. IMO, that's how one's character >> {or, if you prefer the AD&D version, "alignment") is >> to be evaluated. > > Interperet with regard to canon. This is not what you > are doing because you simply disregard possibly the > key statements about his personallity. (see above) > >> >> As for some of the arguments put forward to >> exculpate him, they've been reaches at best which >> would convince no jury, if "evidence beyond >> reasonable doubt" is what's wanted, the >> preponderance of such actual evidence has been with >> us, not with his admirers. And, frankly, the burden >> is actually on *you* when "canon" says he's a >> betrayer who sells out his allies and homeland to > > see above > >> prove that he isn't such a sort of person. > > your evidence is hardly convincing, "lets just read > this paragraph on how the traldarians suffered at the > hands of the thytainian invaders", oh that proves a > lot about stefan, well at least thats what your > arguement says. I dissagree, thus it is not worth me > quoting indivitual references like these when thay are > not actually on topic because my (our?) case revoves > around the fact that your interpretation is flawed > because it disregards some key statments that can give > intent and insted gives intent based on outcome. An > outcome is amoral, and thus your arguement is flawed > here. > >> Similarly, "he made a mistake" isn't a good enough >> excuse if he fails to correct it for over thirty >> five years > > true, but there are plausable (to me) reasons for his > inaction which you disregard as far fetched (mostly > based on modern understandings of society) > >> - regarding people acting under his >> authority. That's pretty telling. Now, on the other >> hand also, "your side" has somewhat distorted what >> "our side's" point has been - on numerous occasions >> we've left open the possibility that he's just. . >> .not cut out for the responsibilities of rulership, >> to put it kindly. > > fine, but thats something I don't care about. He *is* > in the rulership position and thats it as far as I am > concerned, what do you sergest we do? > >> But the polemical claim by "your >> side" has been that we insist upon characterizing >> him as evil (nope - I've left open the possibility >> that he's neut! > > Then we can stop argueing, because that is the most > plausable to both understandings and leaves room to > move for both sides. (given he *is* lawful and > anything else is *automaticallly* non-canon). > > Happy yet? > > :) > Chris. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001123193853.009e9ec0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 8:00 PM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: > Not at all! It was a jest. All of you are picking apart every single word > in the Gazetteer to prove an opinion of what you believe about Stefan. And > guess what. The Gazetteer is just a game product that doesn't adhere to > logic to start with. Yes, we're picking it apart. This thread was meant to be a cordial discussion of our different interpretations of Stefan's behavior - not an alignment debate, not a canon flamefest. Nothing's wrong with picking apart the material for different views; the fault lies ith those who make it a personal crusade to call those of us who deviate froma printed alignment "wrong," at all costs. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001123202121.0080ee40@pop.wans.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 10:21 PM, jsmill@WANS.NET wrote: > In any case, the point was to show that no one- Thyatian or Traladaran- is > entirely innocent and fluffy-bunny like in this situation. IMO (and others > have pointed this out, too) it's the moral ambiguity and "real" nature of > human conflict and differing perspectives that makes Karameikos one of the > more interesting nations on Mystara. Exactly. I've never denied the culpability of the Marilenevs in the Rebellion; only questioned the extent of the brutality with which the revolt was crushed. Certainly, both sides of the conflict have done terrible things. My point was to examine the "bad" things Stefan has done, as "canon" has certainly already cast the Traladaran clans in a not-so-nice light. It's just that certain people can't stand to have that harsh light cast on the king in the same manner. IMO, it makes the whole setting much more interesting to do so. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 10:40 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> Then you tell me that it is not all subjective and >>> thus we cannot both be right from different point's of veiw, which I was >>what that e-mail was about. << > Not true. I said the subjectivist philosophy/theory was wrong. > Now, you are in a pickle, however - you claim that you believe everything is > subjective, but while loudly proclaiming your insistance that Stefan is good > and any claim to the contrary is incorrect. Which means you're applying an > objective standard. > You're the subjectivistt who insists on the one hand that everything is > subjective, while on the other hand arguing that I am wrong (which, as I said > in another post, shows the flaws in the subjectivist position, since when the > rubber hits the road even the people who claim to adhere to that theory do not > believe in it - otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that I'm incorrect and > Stefan is Good and Lawful.) I would like to ask Chris how he can support his previously stated views that interpretation of Stefan's behavor is largely subjective, while simultaneously stating that our view on the subject is wrong. These two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/23/00 10:49 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >>> I dislike strongly people that regurgitate the Gazetteers in such a way to >>> silence someone or prove themselves. << Well, "regurgutation" is kind of the basis of the whole thing, to an extent. I cite my evidence, others cite theirs. Okay, fine. Where I have a problem with it is when *all* someone will do is quote canon at me ("He's listed as LG. I believe it because it is so written."), rather than citing it as the basis for their *own* opinion. Sounds similar, but there is a difference. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <20001124065403.14790.qmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 12:54 AM, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM wrote: > I apolgise to members of this list for the following > because it is aimed at james. I sent it here cause > that way people can read it if they care, but mostly > so I can try in vain to explain to james some of my > views on the matter and why I have them. 1) It was wholly inappropriate to send this admittedly private message to the list as a whole. 2) Your posts would be much easier to read if you were to use proper spelling, capitalization, and punctuation. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 1:18 AM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > Some certain people (well, ok, Chris) have claimed that they are following > "the intent of the author" in their position. However, there are several > things regarding that: > As for author intent, the same author who wrote the Gaz. & described Stefan > also wrote these things that run counter to the vision of Stefan as both > competent and good. Certainly he knows what his intent was when he described > Stefan as bringing in his wake various ruthless men and empowering them, as > crushing the Traladaran ruling families authority (not just that of the > rebellious Marilenev clan, with the "accidental" but useful deaths of its > leading members - but the others pushed largely out of power and replaced by > Stefan's men, including the ruthless ones), and when that same author > described him as "selling out his longtime allies" and "betraying his > homeland", certainly the author knew his intent - we can't, putting those > "bad" things Stefan is described as responsible alongside with the "good" > things Stefan is described as responsible for, we cannot say that the author > intended to depict him as competent and good, or as competent but neutral, or > as competent but evil, or as incompetent but good-intended. As most of you know, I interviewed Aaron Allston recently for the ToM. if I recall most of our discussions correctly, he stated that for the most part, TSR writers were handed their assignments in outline, especially in the early days. I might extrapolate from that, that Stefan was - in the early days of Gaz 1 - intended as a good "background"-type ruler, for the low level setting which was Karameikos. However, by the time Aaron was contracted for DotE and WotI, he had developed (and been permitted to express) more of an opinion about his character, Stefan. I would argue that later portrayals of Stefan (DotE and WotI) were therefore closer to author's intent. As for K:KoA, we all know that it was nothing but a polish-up of the old Gaz, so there's no surprise that the older ideas rear their heads there. Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to get a definitive answer, once and for all. Jenn > > We can, however, look at what is described, and form a judgement not of the > author's intent, but evaluate that and come to our own conclusions. Did the > author "intend" to depict Stefan as very virtuous and very competent, but just > blow it, and in a haze write things that ran counter to his own intentions? > Who knows. Some claim they know (thus they excise, denigrate, and dismiss the > parts that they think the author didn't intend to write but some how > mistakenly put in anyhow). But I don't think we can know for sure, and it's a > fools errand to try and claim we can. > > But, as I said, we *can* read what was written, and come to a conclusion based > on our own judgement and weighing the breadth of the depiction - noting that > the things that are presumptively at odds with a certain view of Stefan were > put in - written by those same authors - and thus should inform our > evaluation. IMO, those things lead to the conclusion that Stefan's character > and record should be seen as mixed at best - and that many of his "good > intentions" have failed to express themselves in good actions when push came > to shove. The reason for that could be, as I've also said, character defect > ("See no evil"), but that's at odds with his perceptiveness and decisiveness > in other instances, and thus that position has its weakness (even Stefan's > admirers have at several times said that this excuse stretches believability > at best), or indifference ("neutrality"), he doesn't take action to prevent > these evils because he doesn't, when push comes to shove, care one way or the > other! > ! > (ok, he might "care" in some vague sense, but not to a degree to put himself > out in rectifying these problems - other things are always given a higher > priority. Things such as forming the nation in his own image), or active > complicity ("Dark Stefan") - he fosters these things as a part of achieving > his goals, as a means to a certain end (just as other "visionaries" who have > desired to reshape societies have). > > Myself, I vacilate between the latter two, but generally am inclined to the > "indifference" position (he has other priorities that take precidence over > rectifying the evils his decisions & mistakes have created, he's not all that > concerned with how his appointees behave, though he'd like them to be seen as > good it's not a big deal so long as their misbehavior doesn't interfier with > his personal vision/project). I think that's the easiest way to use all of his > actions and explain how he can be competent but still have all these "ruthless > men" as his sworn agents doing nasty things for a long period and not being > spurred to correcting & rectifying that situation. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:49:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Guerra wrote: > > Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to > get a definitive answer, once and for all. > I think that would be quite interesting. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:52:40 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E44F3.6000700@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "G.P. Agosta" : > Derek Adam wrote: > > > > >> Well, perhaps you like being a *subject*, but I'd rather be a citizen > in > >> an inefficiently governed nation than a subject in a perfectly > governed > >> one... must be my fault, clearly. > > > > Clearly. I would personally choose to live in a perfectly governed > > monarchy than a corrupt republic. A perfectly governed monarchy IMO > would > > care more and do more for its subjects than a corrupt and self-serving > > republic. > > > > I should mention that I /actually/ live in a constitutional monarchy, > so > > I'm both a subject /and/ a citizen. =;) > > Well, I suppose I should drop this subject, since it is leaving the > Mystara context. > > I should mention that I actually live in a fairly corrupt republic, but > that I do prefer it to any monarchy, even constitutional. > > > >> > Before you get on my case about my statement about small > communities, > >> remember > >> > that the town of Kelvin was founded by Kelvin near the > >> The fishermen village was already there. > > > > > > The fisherman village is not part of Kelvin city. > > So what? It shows that the region was pretty safe, anyway. It's not necessarily safe for humans in general just because there are tiny, scattered outposts of humanity. Indeed, the fact that there was little in the way of larger communities shows that the Traladarans probably got their keesters kicked on a regular basis before Stefan. > > It says as much in the > > description of Kelvin. The fisherman village apparently hadn't > changed > > size in hundreds of years, which is not what I would call progress. > > If it's fine for them. It says it is, IIRC. During Traldar's Golden Age, a /city/ was there. Traladarans couldn't manage that in modern times because it was unsafe. > >> goblin-infested Dymrak > >> > >> For this matter, look at the goblin forces in B10. Risible. > > > > They seemed to completely overrun several settlements. > > Settlements of 10 people or so. Even the old village at Kelvin's site > had a population of 1000, IIRC. You'll have to point me toward that reference. I don't remember the old village being terribly large. > Enough to raise a few low level adventurers and bash the goblin. But, apparently not enough to create an environment safe enough for a larger community. > The numbers given in B10 only show that the settlements were actually > unprotected by Kelvin's troops, because even a pathetic garrison would > have resisted their attack. The city of Kelvin can and does protect itself. There are still scattered communities that are vunerable to attack, but the fact remains there are now strong communities that are no longer vunerable to attack. > > That's not so > > risible. Since they breed like rabbits, even if they are whupped but > good, > > it only takes a few years for them to be a threat to small, undefended > > settlements. > > Still, any party of low level characters can take them out. If that's so, then why aren't all of the goblins already gone, dispatched by the Traladarans over the last millenium? > And they become aggressive only when supported and leaded by the Iron > Ring, an organization sponsored by the Black Eagle. Note, that was only the /last/ such incident. The fact the population is so sparse was attributed to the interior being dark and foreboding, with threats to humanity. I attribute at least part of this to goblins. I don't think it's unreasonable to do so. > >> > Forest, and Threshold was just a village when Sherlane arrived. I > >> But it was there. > > > > > > So, growing it from a tiny village to a well-defended and well-tended > town > > of 5000+ is insignificant progress? > > It's just a matter of numbers. The fact that those village already > existed shows that the Traladarans could have built towns there, if they > were interested in doing so. I would say that larger communities would invite the attacks and raids by the local humanoid population. That is why their communities were small -- they couldn't grow past a certain size without being attacked and decimated. > > No, but that wasn't the point. It is done to make the road to/from > > Selenica safer, and thereby encourage trade. This is not something > > the Traladarans were terribly likely to do on their own. > > So, first Stefan intrudes into goblin territory, than he is annoyed by > their reaction, and he has them bashed by his force (or at least tries > to, since he doesn't seem very successful). I don't see it as a paragon > of virtue. I don't want to get into what amounts to a moral relativism argument. The fact is, humanoids threaten human communities. And, Traladarans and Thyatians alike attack them in return. > >> > It's certainly implied that without that level of action, > >> organisation, and > >> > cooperation, the humanoids of the area would be a big, big threat. > >> > >> As I previously said, they were not for the last millennium. See above. Actually, read the next paragraph, again. It applies. > > And, your evidence of that is the vast population of Traladarans that > > over-ran the orcs and goblins of the region, I guess? The interior > > population had been very small for the last millenium because of the > > competition and constant threat of attack by the humanoids. They > > might have kept their mutual numbers in check, but it took organisation the > > Traladarans didn't have to decide to create Kelvin and then do it. > > Kelvin was already there, as a fishermen's village. True, but in ancient times it was a city. Traladarans couldn't manage that. It took Kelvin to come along to make a city. > >> No, I'm just saying that they were damaged by Stefan's action, but > that > >> you are willing to ignore this fact. > > > > > > Okay, the waters have been muddied pretty thoroughly. Who are you > saying > > was damaged by Stefan's action? The elves? The gnomes? > > The Hin and the Traladarans! As for the gnomes, the arrive of Stefan did > not influence them much. And for the elves, the only effect of Stefan's > arrival was the formation of the Elvenguard. I would guess the Hin were unaffected as well. I've already gone on record as saying the Traladarans benefitted, eventually. > >> And I showed you that not only Stefan's subject did not benefit from > his > >> rule, but that he also damaged some of his neighbours, and that the > >> gnomes did not get any advantage as well. > > > > You didn't show it, you only stated it. > > Actually, I showed you proof enough that the gnomes' caravans are still > attacked by bandits, that the river ways aren't secure, etc. On the > other hand, you only stated that things got better under Stefan, but you > had no proof of that. My proof is that large communities grew in the past 30 years where they had been tiny and static for the previous millennium. True, much of the interior is /still/ frontier. But, less of it. And some of that frontier is safer (not totally secure, but safer) on account of the garrisons created out there. > > I think the Callarii are from the Radlebb Woods, not the northern > > mountains. That area is definitely physically enclosed by Karameikos' > > borders. If you were saying, OTOH, that his political rule does not > > extend to them, then I'd agree. > > No, I meant that the borders of Karameikos are just lines on a map. The > territory controlled by Karameikos is much smaller (and does not include > the northern mountains). Not all of them, no, but part of them. IIRC, Threshold is on the foothills of them, and the mountains extend still south of Threshold. Also, the Castellan Keep is in the northern mountains controlled by Karameikos. > >> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". > > > > I don't think this is contrary to what Stefan wants. It can hardly be > > considered acting against him. > > Well, he wants the opposite! Mutual cultural assimilation is not contrary to Stefan's wish to forge a country with its own character. > > It doesn't say he is inconsistent in his description. It says, "His > > judgements in trials are no gems of legal precedent but are fair and > > even-handed." That means, he doesn't end up creating new precedent as a > > result of some brilliant application of law. Instead, he applies his > > existing laws evenly and fairly. > > To me, that means is judgements are so poor from a legal point of view, > that they are not usable as precedents. He doesn't need to set new precedents when he's ruling, because he creates the laws. The fact he doesn't have to create new precedents means he wrote his laws well in the first place. That does /not/ mean his judgements are poor. Just that they aren't ground-breaking. OTOH, if they /were/ ground-breaking that would mean his laws needed some sort of fixing after the fact. > Which doesn't mean that his > judgements aren't fair (on a theoretical point of view), just that he > isn't much bound to his own laws. Okay, you last phrase makes no sense at all. It doesn't say anywhere that he disregards his laws, only that he judges fairly. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:57:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E2F1B.6060307@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:04 AM 11/24/00 +0100, "G.P. Agosta" wrote: >Andrew Theisen wrote: > >> At 11:13 PM 11/23/00 +0000, Agathokles wrote: >> >>> No, no. The elven guard is just a move by Stefan to gain some renown >>> among the elves! (It's in the Gaz, if you don't believe me!) >> >> >> Where is this mentioned? The only mentions of the Elvenguard I see are: >> >> p.5 (under "Elves"): "Duke Stefan has a guard unit entirely composed of >> Callarii elves, which has given many elves the chance to meet him, and the >> Callarii are favorably disposed toward the Duke." > >Here, it says the Elvenguard have exactly this effect. I disagree, at least in part. Your contention is that the Elvenguard was created in order to gain renown among the elves (which, given the vague and nonspecific phrasing in the above passage, is certainly a valid opinion). In my opinion, the phrasing above is more suggestive that the opportunity for elves to associate with the Duke is a benefit that results from his formation of the Elvenguard, but is not the rationale behind the formation of such. Either opinion is valid, depending on your reading of canon, and your desires in such regards, but they are both just opinions. (Which is sort of the issue, as others have pointed out, with using canon for any argument- the wording of such is usually vague enough that the DM/Reader can interpret things however they wish.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:57:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes / No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/2000 8:32:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, valerya1@YAHOO.COM writes: << Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to get a definitive answer, once and for all. Jenn >> Oh, leave him alone. This has gone on long enough. I KNOW I am not the list administrator, but would you all please continue this as a person to person e-mail discussion and leave the rest of us out of this. You all are starting to remind me of the Republicans and Democrats in Florida. You are not going to convince the other side that you are 'right.' Accept that fact. And while I appreciate that you may be trying to score points with the 'independents' on the list, like myself, when and if the characters in my campaign go to Karameikos, I will decide how best to portray Stefan based on the needs of my players and my Campaign. Just_Like_All_Of_You_Do. And not unlike ordering Chinese food, I will probably take a little from one MML contributors post, a little form another, some from the Gaz, and some from my own imagination (which is probably hopelessly contaminated from too much fantasy literature and history texts). Thanks Please, assume that I have already imagined most of the things you are going post in response to this, flame and non-flame alike, and don't send them, okay? But if you MUST have the last word, go right ahead, but have mercy on the rest and send them to me and not the list. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:01:07 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/2000 6:40:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Not really, or at least not at this point. I had vague memories of such a dude but couldn't recall him. Thanks. >> What more is mentioned of him? Did he sit out the whole Thyatian occupation? Sounds like a 'power to be reckoned with' kind of NPC in any Karameikos campaign. Has anyone on the list done more work on him? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:22:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Good King Stefan >> Wizards Shopper wrote: >One might even draw a parallel between the FLQ crisis and the short-lived unrest of B6 (The Veiled Society), but I'm not that up on history to really commit to that. I've done some studying in that area, and I think a case could be made for applying B6 to that scenario. But anyways, back to Mystara...... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:30:28 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan the Lawful In-Reply-To: <20001124231722.22024.qmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 05:17 PM, you wrote: >well I was thinking this needed to be done but there's >a fair bit of work and I'm a busy man. My biggest >problem would have to be digging through everything, >but with the quote in front of me I would be happy to >help "flesh events out" so to speak. In fact I think >it could be quite fun. Also it will all need to be >ensured for it's consistancy. Good idea anyway, would >be happy to help. The only things I thought of using were the Gazetteer/Karameikos box set and Almanacs. Since I think Karameikos all by itself (except for the size) makes a good setting, I figure it deserved to be expanded on (Karameikos: The Next Gazetteer :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:01:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 07:24 PM, you wrote: >And, after all these posts, no one has yet offered, IMNSHO, a viable example >which explains the supposed "loyalty" of the Traladarans to Stefan. If you remember, we are given Karameikos' history then *poof* its forty years later and here you are. There's not much in the way of what state of affairs Karameikos is in presently. Plus the Traladaran/Thyatian conflict is simply stated to exist. Well, actually it says each side distrusts the other. This definitely an area where we'll have to look long and hard for the moment where Traladarans became loyal subjects of the king and I think there would have to be some fleshing out of the details. At the moment, the only things I could think of to explain this is an old Clinton slogan "Its the economy, stupid!" This is the biggest change I can tell without study of how Traladara compares to Karameikos. The nation is wealthier and that wealth as brought it a bigger voice in the affairs of the Known World which would play right into the greatness Traladarans hold about themselves. I would imagine the declaration of independence from Thyatis wasn't only large political blow to the empire. Stefan showed the whole region he owed nothing to any but his nation which would again play to the Traladaran ideas of self-independence. I think a few Traladarans holding onto animosity toward Thyatians may have lost a weapon against the king with that move. Perhaps allowing more Traladarans to see him as their king and not just the latest Thyatian to occupy their lands. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:28:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 07:24 PM, you wrote: >Welcome back, Tim. I just recently re-joined, too, and it's fun to jump in >with both feet, no? ;-) Thank you and yes, I did like just jumping right in :) >IIRC, there is no mention of whether he personally commissioned the >painting. However, the painting is part of a "New Karameikan" art movement >meant to "modernize" Traladaran artwork (interestingly, complete with a >Stefan-lookalike Halav, and royal family lookalikes in the crowd...). You >can surely see how that would benefit the New Karameikan movement. I checked and no, no mention of why or by who it was painted. I decided to take a look at it and it started me wondering. Just how long how Traladara been without a king since Halav? Assuming the Cult of Halav are extremist, I wonder if Stefan has become a symbol of the reestablishment of the golden age. I'm sure you know that it wasn't uncommon for medieval artists to place their subject in some way to legendary events. I must say that book is the best use of artwork I've seen from TSR for any setting. >I've always been curious as to how a church which is only 30 years old >or so could have followers terrified of being excommunicated, but go >figure... Well, there is an reason. I hate to say it... oh, what the heck, its bad design. I think the Church of Karameikos was meant to be the main church with the Church of Traladara and the Cult of Halav to be minor beliefs. Even though the Church of Traladara is the largest. But the bad design is that the main church of the nation is less defined than the minor churches. >That's the point, after all. "Prove" your argument, and put it out there for >all of us to see! I just get upset when people don't ask for _your_ proofs >for _your_ arguments, but rather claim that your ideas are automatically >invalidated by theirs. I don't think its a bad idea to investigate the whys of things. In a previous post, I came up with some reasons that I hadn't really thought of till I put my mind to it. Its probably harder to think about proving something when it seems the material has already said it. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:49:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 07:24 PM, you wrote: >Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to >get a definitive answer, once and for all. I wouldn't think that necessary because I suspect Stefan is meant to be good. But Aaron had to deal with things like Fort Doom existing before he wrote the gazetteer so had to explain how such an obvious evil place exists in a good nation. I might have just ignored the earlier name or created a small nation within Karameikos' borders. But its always easy to second guess someone. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:44:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/24/00 07:24 PM, you wrote: >Yes, we're picking it apart. This thread was meant to be a cordial >discussion of our different interpretations of Stefan's behavior - not an >alignment debate, not a canon flamefest. Nothing's wrong with picking apart >the material for different views; the fault lies ith those who make it a >personal crusade to call those of us who deviate froma printed alignment >"wrong," at all costs. Oh, that wasn't the most important part of my post :) It was using those picked apart sections to beat someone else in the head. I certainly don't mean by saying that because the designer assigned a lawful alignment to Stefan that means everyone that disagrees should be quiet. Only that because of that fact, I tend to try to keep that in mind when I see something that challenges that alignment. As you might remember, I tend to think canon needs a sledgehammer and crowbar to work properly :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 05:52:58 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wizards Shopper wrote: > > > > Point 1): disagreement is one thing, armed rebellion is another. Sure, armed > > rebellion is a form of disagreement, but so is civil discourse. You and I > > disagree, but we're not drawing swords and trying to kill each other. > > > At least so far :) > However, obviously civil discourse didn't work with Stefan. > Actually, Stefan did'nt get the chance to discuss anything. No sooner than he had publicly announced his agreement with Thincol in Specularum, than he had an armed insurrection, led primarily by the Marilenev clan, to put down. The attack was purely opportunistic, and motivated because the then ruling traladaran familys thought that they would lose power in the inevitable restructuring of power. Obviously after the insurrection many did, as they had then proved themselves to be untrustworthy of any power within Stefans new power structure. It could be said that it was this event that caused Stefan to seek so many Thyatian nobles for dominion rulership in his fledging nation, as the Traladaran ruling houses were (in his opinion) so obviously opposed to his rulership. This would also lead to the appointments of "bad" or "evil" nobles being installed (and further damaging his relations with the Traladaran people), as Stefan would have then had to hastily set up a new power infrastructure without using any of the old infrastructure that was in place prior to his arrival. Obviously, this is all conjecture, but it does make sense of many of the monumental blunders that Stefan made during the early years of his rulership. It would be interesting to discuss what Karameikos's power infrastructure would look like if the insurrection hadn't of took place. :) > > Point 2): Stefan did not slaughter everyone who disagreed with him. In fact, > > it's doubtful even that every rebel died. > > > Well, it seems like most Traladaran families have lost people in the > rebellion. I'd say most of the rebels died, either in the fighting or > being executed. > I suppose that there were many Traladarans (and Thyatians for that matter) killed in the insurrection, but there is no proof of any executions afterward. As a matter of fact, I would say that the opposite would have been true. If Stefan did not show "mercy" after the battle, then he would have shortly have another, larger, insurrection to put down, and then another, and another, and another. This would simply be because the focus would have changed from a grab for power by the Traladaran ruling families to a personal vendetta against Stefan, as family members of many lesser Traladaran clans would have been killed.Obviously, Stefans postion with his lands would then be untenable, and he would have to retreat from Traladara or turn into a virtual "Black Baron" himself. Another thing that supports the theory that he had shown "mercy" after the battle, is the existence of Lady Magda Marilenev. If Stefan had ordered executions, he would have rounded up the leaders of the insurrections families too, and have them executed too (in an effort to "cut off the head" of any organised resistance to his rulership). The fact that she still lives, and actually maintains an "Estate" suggests the opposite. Obviously, Stefan had not only shown mercy but had tried to some extent, for said families to keep their dignity somewhat (and I'm not saying he was successful in this effort, he just tried :) ). > > I was saying that for Traladaran peasants with Traladaran overlords, switching > > to a different, Thyatian, overlord was probably not much of a change in quality > > of life. That is, such peasants at the time Stefan claimed power didn't suffer > > for the event. > > > Well, I understood that, but you previously were also claiming that > Traladaran peasants' quality of life increased after Stefan and his > Thyatian overlords came to power. I just thought it wasn't consistent. What was meant by Wizards Shoppers statement, was that when Stefans nobles took power, for the most part there was little change in the typical Traladaran peasants lifestyle. Obviously, as the nation has grown through Stefans rulership, the lifesyles of the Traladaran (and Thyatian) peasants has got better, even if you just consider the fact that Karameikos is now more "settled" than the Traladara of old. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:20:14 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The only reason that I can come up with > > that the Black Baron is still in power, is simply that he has recruited an > > army (quite possibly humanoids) that is large enough to pose a serious > > threat to the Karameikan forces (this is what has happened in my campaign). > > Stefan would then think twice about attacking Von Hendricks and siezing the > > Black Barony by force, as it would leave Karameikos virtually unprotected > > against any other hostile force. > > A decent point, especially for post-WotI Karameikos, where Stefan has the > threat of Thyatis at his back if he leaves his eastern border unguarded. > However, in the case of the pre-independence Grand Duchy, why then could he > not call his troops off the Thyatian border - when > he was either (depending on your argument) a Thyatian vassal or an ally? Or > was there a threat from Ierendi or Darokin I didn't realize? ;-) > > Jenn Actually, it works for pre-WotI too. Although Stefan had cordial relations/alliances with the nations that surrounded him, to trust them not to invade his country while he stripped his defences down to forcefully remove the Black Baron would have been foolish, if not suicidal. Even his "ally" at the time, Thyatis, could not be trusted (as everyone that has anything from a passing familiarity with Thyatian politics could easily understand). Then, of course, you have the Traladaran families to consider as well. No sooner than Stefan would have removed Von Hendricks, than he would have faced an opportunitic uprising by them. With his forces badly mauled, and many of the survivors quite possibly symathetic or even for the uprising, Stefan would have lost any chance of successfully defeating it. On the subject of the Black Baron though, I have one question. Why did the Black Baron get defeated after the WotI??? Surely, it would have made more sense to remove the Black Baron while the other countries were still "posturing" themselves for war. Ifs Stefan's troops were called away to battle (as they were, against the MoH), surely the Black Baron would have capitalized on this and siezed control of Karameikos, knowing that even if Stefans forces could not stop him. Even if they turned straight around at that point to re-take Karameikos for Duke Stefan, Stefans forces would have been weakened enough to allow the Black Baron to have a good chance of defending against them (and I'm sure he could have come to some agreement with the MoH for some "reinforcements" to aid in his securing of Karameikos, and opening a second front against Darokin and its allies). :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:39:09 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3A1E4920.4080307@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:55 AM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >>>Actually, it was the growing Thyatian population that required the >>>expansion. >> >>That statement seems to imply that the majority of people in Kelvin are >>Thyatian, not Traladaran. The majority population of Karameikos is >>definitely Traladaran, so do you have proof that there's distributive >>anomoly? A quick glance at the description of Kelvin didn't enlighten me. > >The majority of people in Karameikos are Traladarans, sure. But you will >agree that most minor villages are populated by the Traladarans, which >reduces the actual proportion of Traladaran in the main towns This is faulty reasoning. Clearly the proportion is different, but this is not proof positive that the /majority/ of people in Kelvin are Thyatian. We are not sure, really, what that average proportion is, in order to make an accurate adjustment of this proportion in various locales. The table on page 7 of Gaz 1 might suggest there are 70% pure Traladarans, 20% of mixed decent, and 10% pure Thyatians in Karameikos, but then again, it might not. >(save for Specularum, which is clearly inhabited mostly by poor Traladarans). I think most places in Karameikos are mostly inhabited by Traladarans. Also, the Old Quarter and Nest are only perhaps 1/6th of the occupied real estate of Specularum, so it's not necessarily the case that the majority of those Traladarans are poor in a relative sense. >The fact that there is no mention of Churches of Traladara in Kelvin, >and especially in Threshold, also adds to the idea that most (or a >larger proportion than in the overall Karameikos figures) inhabitants of >those towns aren't Traladarans, but Thyatians and/or mixed. Well, there is no mention of Churches of Karameikos in those places, either. Are we then saying there are none of either? >>>>Could be. That would mean that the Traladarans were allowed to expand >>>>their effective territory as a result of Stefan's rule. >> >> From your previous comment, I would guess that you disagree with this >>assessment? > >I think they were forced to expand into new lands, when the Thyatians >took their (already developed) lands. That may be so in a minority of cases, but my point was that establishing strongly defended new settlements like Kelvin and Threshold allowed Traladarans to expand their effective territory. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:41:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) In-Reply-To: <006b01c05663$5ac0a6e0$41c761d4@skytte> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:09 PM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >Evil Genius wrote: > > > Btw, does anyone remember the name of that Traladaran guy who was > recruited to teach at the KSoM in one of the PWAs (I think it was II)? > Did they give a level for him? (I myself don't recall, and this is one of > those times when I'm to lazy and indolent to check). > >Ohh, good call, James. PWAII p.219: Igor Grygorovich of Kelvin is a >Traladaran mage, who teaches ancient Traladaran magic and enchantment >techniques. He is a 27th (!) level mage as of AC1011. Now, did somebody >want to make a point about Traladarans having home-grown mages, or what >was the focus of this particular discussion? (Sorry, I've been deleting >certain keywords heavily lately, 'Good King Stefan' being one of them). Geez! Where was this guy during the various rebellions? A character like this would have been rather influential. He could have kicked the Thyatians all the way back to border, and then some. He must have been plane-walking or something. -Auld Skald >Jacob Skytte >scythe@wanadoo.dk > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:08:54 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:24 PM 11/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >On 11/21/00 3:49 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > > > No one's ever really been able to show how Stefan might have earned their > > loyalty honestly, either. So one does end up with the conclusion that > Cult of > > Personality propaganda is responsible. > >And, after all these posts, no one has yet offered, IMNSHO, a viable example >which explains the supposed "loyalty" of the Traladarans to Stefan. I'm going to resort to a James-ism. =;) In the Gazetteer, in the section Karameikos' Growth, page 14, column 3, last line of the top paragraph: His personal charisma and reputation for fairness began to endear him to the populace, both Thyatian and Traladari. >Of course, as a side note, I think that this thread has gone woefully >off-topic. The original issues were, IIRC, regarding a discussion of >possible _alternate_ interpretations of Stefan's behavior as given in the >printed materials. Oops. Well ... there could be many! I think the problem is that it started out seeming that there was an evil version of Stefan that was being put forward as the /best/ interpretation of canon. I still think an evil Stefan is very, very inconsistent with canon. [snip] >I realize that a few people in this thread joined late, but we were not >proposing that "canon is wrong," etc., but that the information presented >therein is so vague in its presentation of Stefan as L(G), and so persistent >in its presentation of his morally ambiguous acts, that it can be argued >that there is an alternate view of Stefan as, shall we say, less than good. >We thought to propagate discussion on this, alternate, view. Where things >went ugly was when certain people insisted on judging our views as >fundamentally "wrong" because they reinterpreted the Holy Writ of canon. Guilty as charged, ma'am. I'm sorry. In answer, I'll say that you can reinterpret, but it should not be represented as being really consistent with canon. The idea of writing a different version of Karameikos as evil, though, could be quite fun. >We have presented evidence for our views here, as have the members of the >"other side." I, of course, believe that the preponderance of the evidence >is on the side represented by Evil Genius, Solmyr, Giampaolo, and myself. Naturally you do. That is your position. I just don't happen to agree with you. =;) BTW: I've conceded to Evil Genius that he has a worthy argument for proposing his alignment to be LN. That's not to say that it should be, only that he has a worthy argument. >However, I fully expect that others disagree. I have only asked in my >responses that these others explain their own position, independent of >"because Canon says so" arguments, which they have not, again IMO, >successufully done. Well, what basis shall we use for the discussion, then? All we have is canon to go by if we are trying in any way to have an objective discussion about the original setting. If you are saying we should try to look at canon holistically, fine. Then what? Are we 1) actively trying to find alternate interpretations, 2) trying to find the interpretation "most" consistent in canon, or 3) trying to find ways to patch over any inconsistencies. I have not done 1) at all, and engaged in both 2) and 3) in these many threads. > Printed material is not a holy text, and is not irrefutable. >We enjoy this game because of its mutability to what we wish to >get from it, and so the point of the conversation (as well as of my >Traladara Mini-Gaz) was to challenge your thoughts in regards to another >possible view of King Stefan. So, you're proposing option 1) for the purposes of this discussion? >I know that I will not change your minds, and you know that you will not >change mine. I am interested in presenting my thoughts on the subject >nonetheless, and I am interested in you presenting yours. Unfortunately, so >long as you continue to do nothing but hide behind "But Canon says he's LG, >so he's LG" (which is legitimate if we're examining printed stats, but the >point is to look at alternative interpretations of the printed character >_actions_) arguments, rather than present your own interpretations. This is now sounding more like option 2) with a sub-agenda of 1). >I'm sorry to see that there are still, after all these years, people on this >list who cannot look at the material as a jumping-off point to their own >creative thought, rather than as holy law, written in immutable stone. Oh, we can see the material as a jumping-off point. However, that's not what the conversation seemed to be when I, personally, jumped in. So, let's agree what the purpose of the continuing discussion is now to avoid further confusion. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:54:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > At 11:09 PM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >> Ohh, good call, James. PWAII p.219: Igor Grygorovich of Kelvin is a >> Traladaran mage, who teaches ancient Traladaran magic and enchantment >> techniques. He is a 27th (!) level mage as of AC1011. Now, did somebody >> want to make a point about Traladarans having home-grown mages, or what >> was the focus of this particular discussion? (Sorry, I've been deleting >> certain keywords heavily lately, 'Good King Stefan' being one of them). > > > Geez! Where was this guy during the various rebellions? A character like > this would have been rather influential. He could have kicked the > Thyatians all the way back to border, and then some. He must have been > plane-walking or something. You mean during the rebellions around 40 years before AC 1011? For what we know, he might have been much less powerful, at that time. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:08:22 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Thyatis Must Fall! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There's no place for a Roman Empire in the Known World. So, the Thyatian > Empire must change. And I rather for the nations of the Isle of Dawn to be > real nations than Thyatian protectorates. Of course, there are other > regions they are an asset to. The fastest way I see of Thyatis to wake up > and see many of the other nations of the Known World have outgrown them is > to fall. All in my opinion. Why do you say that??? I think there is every need for a Roman Empire in Known World - it makes good adventure material being the main one. (Unlike, say, Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area, which are all to lesser or greater extents dead ducks as far as adventures are concerned. At least, my adventures :). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:20:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > At 11:55 AM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: > >>> That statement seems to imply that the majority of people in Kelvin are >>> Thyatian, not Traladaran. The majority population of Karameikos is >>> definitely Traladaran, so do you have proof that there's distributive >>> anomoly? A quick glance at the description of Kelvin didn't >>> enlighten me. >> >> The majority of people in Karameikos are Traladarans, sure. But you will >> agree that most minor villages are populated by the Traladarans, which >> reduces the actual proportion of Traladaran in the main towns > > This is faulty reasoning. Clearly the proportion is different, but this is > not proof positive that the /majority/ of people in Kelvin are > Thyatian. We are not sure, really, what that average proportion is, in > order to make an accurate adjustment of this proportion in various locales. As per your own guess, 70% is probably correct. Now, if you consider that the Traladaran fiefs and the smaller communities aren't crowded with Thyatians and that Specularum was quite big even when Stefan arrived (his new wall encloses only two small quarters, and one is the foreigners' quarter), the Traladaran's proportion in Kelvin and Threshold (and Penhaligon) must be definitely smaller. From this smaller population, you have to remove those who were there before Stefan arrived (they live in old villages which aren't affected by the expansion), so you are left with a much lower proportion. If you consider the issue of the Churches below, you will see that Threshold, and probably Kelvin too, boast a majority of Thyatians and mixed people. So, we have a proof (even if it is indirect) that there is an "anomaly" in Kelvin and Threshold. > The table on page 7 of Gaz 1 might suggest there are 70% pure Traladarans, > 20% of mixed decent, and 10% pure Thyatians in Karameikos, but then again, > it might not. Crossed with the distribution of the faiths, it probably says that 70% Traladarans is correct (or a good lower bound). The actual distribution of mixed and Thyatians does not matter much here, though I'd probably reverse the proportion. >> (save for Specularum, which is clearly inhabited mostly by poor >> Traladarans). > > I think most places in Karameikos are mostly inhabited by > Traladarans. Also, the Old Quarter and Nest are only perhaps 1/6th of the > occupied real estate of Specularum, so it's not necessarily the case that > the majority of those Traladarans are poor in a relative sense. Actually, The quarters marked in violet and the Bricktop are definitely less crowded that the others. The bulk of the population lives in the two older quarters and the two residential quarters in white colour. This four areas hold essentially people with modest earnings or worse. And they are mostly Traladarans. >> The fact that there is no mention of Churches of Traladara in Kelvin, >> and especially in Threshold, also adds to the idea that most (or a >> larger proportion than in the overall Karameikos figures) inhabitants of >> those towns aren't Traladarans, but Thyatians and/or mixed. > > Well, there is no mention of Churches of Karameikos in those places, > either. Are we then saying there are none of either? There are, as Baron Kelvin is listed as Patriarch of Kelvin, and Sherlane's Temple is listed (and is the only one listed in B10, IIRC) for Threshold. Therefore, we are saying that there are large Churches of Karameikos, and no Church of Traladara. (As a side note: the Church in Threshold has quite a lot of priests, if you look in B10) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:45:12 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Planer Travel In-Reply-To: <000901c056c7$b701c100$9a01a8c0@rob>; from rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK on Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 10:08:22AM -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I'm about to send the PC's out into the big bad world of planer adventure. I've read up on the planes in the Cyclopedia and Wrath but was wondering what wisdom the list could share in regards to planer adventure. I want to try and making plane hopping *wierd*. Nothing too standard, I want them to *know* that they are not in kansas anymore. Any suggestions on how to emphasize the wierdness? Any ideas for wierd things to happen? (Not just in the canon descriptions, any wierd things you think will help!) Also, one of my players plays in a Planescape campaign, so I want to keep things quite different from the feel of those adventures (don't want him getting bored!) - having not played Planescape, any suggestions for maintaining a different 'feel'? thanks! gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:47:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: >>> The fisherman village is not part of Kelvin city. >> >> So what? It shows that the region was pretty safe, anyway. > > It's not necessarily safe for humans in general just because there are tiny, > scattered outposts of humanity. Indeed, the fact that there was little in the > way of larger communities shows that the Traladarans probably got their > keesters kicked on a regular basis before Stefan. If a small community can survive, a larger one can survive better, because it may gather more men for defence. >>> It says as much in the >>> description of Kelvin. The fisherman village apparently hadn't >> >> changed >> >>> size in hundreds of years, which is not what I would call progress. >> >> If it's fine for them. It says it is, IIRC. > > During Traldar's Golden Age, a /city/ was there. Traladarans couldn't manage > that in modern times because it was unsafe. No proof of that. By golden age standard, the fishermen's village would be counted as a large town... golden age was a prehistoric age with stone tools! The Halav came with bronze, he probably did enlarge the city, but the gnoll invasion destroyed it. BTW, your remark about the golden age Lavv does not invalidate my point. The Traladaran fisheremen are quite content with their village, and believe that they will survive Kelvin. >>>> goblin-infested Dymrak >>>> >>>> For this matter, look at the goblin forces in B10. Risible. >>> >>> They seemed to completely overrun several settlements. >> >> Settlements of 10 people or so. Even the old village at Kelvin's site >> had a population of 1000, IIRC. > > > You'll have to point me toward that reference. I don't remember the old > village being terribly large. > > >> Enough to raise a few low level adventurers and bash the goblin. > > > But, apparently not enough to create an environment safe enough for a larger > community. You are basing all of you reasoning on the dubious basis that the Traladarans, had they had the possibility, would have enlarged those communities. I don't see any proof of this. >> Still, any party of low level characters can take them out. > > If that's so, then why aren't all of the goblins already gone, dispatched by > the Traladarans over the last millenium? And if the goblins were so dangerous, how is that the Traladarans weren't dispatched by them over the last millennium? The only reasonable answer is that the goblin weren't that aggressive before Stefan's arrival shaked the status quo. >> And they become aggressive only when supported and leaded by the Iron >> Ring, an organization sponsored by the Black Eagle. > > Note, that was only the /last/ such incident. The fact the population is so > sparse was attributed to the interior being dark and foreboding, with threats > to humanity. I attribute at least part of this to goblins. I don't think it's > unreasonable to do so. So, they were wise enough to stay clear from goblin territory. Obviously, the enlightened Stefan decided that it was all Traladaran superstition, and unleashed a plague he is not able to counter... >> It's just a matter of numbers. The fact that those village already >> existed shows that the Traladarans could have built towns there, if they >> were interested in doing so. > > I would say that larger communities would invite the attacks and raids by the > local humanoid population. That is why their communities were small -- they > couldn't grow past a certain size without being attacked and decimated. That's why the goblinoid have become aggressive during the last thirty years. Because the overpopulation which ensued to the Thyatian's arrival provoked the destruction of an established (1000+ years) ecosystem. >> So, first Stefan intrudes into goblin territory, than he is annoyed by >> their reaction, and he has them bashed by his force (or at least tries >> to, since he doesn't seem very successful). I don't see it as a paragon >> of virtue. > > I don't want to get into what amounts to a moral relativism argument. The fact > is, humanoids threaten human communities. And, Traladarans and Thyatians alike > attack them in return. No proof that the Traladarans had any problem with goblins before, while there is proof that the human communities expanded during the last thirty years. So it was the humans who attacked first. All my moral relativism equals to not harbouring prejudices, which you clearly do, and which don't allow you to see thing in a different light than humans=good, goblinoid=evil. >> The Hin and the Traladarans! As for the gnomes, the arrive of Stefan did >> not influence them much. And for the elves, the only effect of Stefan's >> arrival was the formation of the Elvenguard. > > I would guess the Hin were unaffected as well. So unaffected that they had to remove the Black Eagle themselves. > I've already gone on record as > saying the Traladarans benefitted, eventually. You only stated it. None of the argument you brought to support you POV goes beyond "he brought Civilization to the Traladarans", which simply doesn't stand. > My proof is that large communities grew in the past 30 years where they had > been tiny and static for the previous millennium. This doesn't prove much, as I showed above. >>> I think the Callarii are from the Radlebb Woods, not the northern >>> mountains. That area is definitely physically enclosed by Karameikos' >>> borders. If you were saying, OTOH, that his political rule does not >>> extend to them, then I'd agree. >> >> No, I meant that the borders of Karameikos are just lines on a map. The >> territory controlled by Karameikos is much smaller (and does not include >> the northern mountains). > > Not all of them, no, but part of them. IIRC, Threshold is on the foothills of > them, and the mountains extend still south of Threshold. Also, the Castellan > Keep is in the northern mountains controlled by Karameikos. Right, you know which is the nearest settlement to the Castellan Keep? This should give you the measure of how much of that land is under Stefan's control. However, the point was that a large chunk of the Callarii border is composed by lands not really under Stefan's control. >>>> He is trying to have the Thyatian population "Traladarized". >>> >>> I don't think this is contrary to what Stefan wants. It can hardly be >>> considered acting against him. >> >> Well, he wants the opposite! > > Mutual cultural assimilation is not contrary to Stefan's wish to forge a > country with its own character. In Aleksyev mind, it is not much mutual. Also you should have said "with his (Stefan's) own character" :P -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:08:20 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: ; from valerya1@YAHOO.COM on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 07:24:44PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I'm sorry to see that there are still, after all these years, people on this > list who cannot look at the material as a jumping-off point to their own > creative thought, rather than as holy law, written in immutable stone. For one thing it makes it *really* difficult to bring all your stuff round for a gaming session. Right, I'm going to have to buy the paper versions! :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:09:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BMYSTARA=5D_=5BMYSTARA=5D_Mystara=B4s_Map_Navigator?= In-Reply-To: <3A1EB66A.15A8E075@kolumbus.fi>; from solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:41:46PM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:41:46PM +0200, Solmyr wrote: > Gordon McCormick wrote: > > > > I think it's mentioned on the map as Bengarian and > > in the text as Bensarian. I'll check tonight if > > I remember! :) > > > I think this has to do with the fact that the letters "g" and "s" in the > font used on Mystaran maps look somewhat similar. Could be! Unfortunately I couldn't find my copy of X11, I think it may be back home in Scotland :( gordon, of no use in the search for the origin of bengarian... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:57:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In the Hinterlands, Thyatians are attacking and killing the native people, who didn't ask them to come. Sure, some of them eventually abandon the fight and are absorbed into Thyatian society, but many other continue the fighting. The Thyatians may think it's good not only for the empire, but also for the people they're conquering - after all, they bring them culture, trade, roads, cities, etc. They never asked for them? Well, too bad, the Thyatians bring it to them nevertheless. And some natives get killed in the effort, too? The emperor and the senate decided to conquer and colonize the Hinterlands, and they can't ignore that they are forcing their culture onto a people who didn't ask for it, and they are killing many in the process. So by some people's reasoning, they are evil. And since in Thyatis the senators are elected by the citizens, then all citizens are evil too, because they gave those senators power and if they cared for the poor Hinterlanders they would remove the current senators from power and elect good ones instead. Thus, all Thyatians are evil. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:34:19 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought the whole point of nations in Mystara was that they didn't have clearly defined alignments (bit like in real life really...). You might tack an alignment onto an individual maybe, but not an entire nation. Alignment never really clicked for me, I usually just ignore it. As for Thyatis - well, is the US government evil? Were all Germans in World War 2 evil? Was Cromwell evil? I think this "conquering is evil and whoever does it should be smacked down" ideal is a bad thing. The whole point of the setting is that is a backdrop and story hook for adventures, and if there is nothing going on because everyone is a happy citizen (death to war) it makes for an exceedingly dull world. If Thyatis is invading the Hinterlands, so be it. Its certainly more interesting than if the Thyatis spent its time organising tree hugging sessions, it would be a dull place and should be (rightly) conquered and replaced with something that has a little more adventure prospects. This is supposed to be a game about adventure, not a Happy Families session. And given that Mystara isn't supposed to be an enlightened 21st century place, what is this about "forcing culture onto others"? Next thing we'll have a Mystaran UN complete with Security Council. Until the last hundred years or so (in fact probably more like the last thirty years) of real life nations have always been forcing their culture on to other people. In fact, you could say that they still are, just more peacably. Cheers Rob > In the Hinterlands, Thyatians are attacking and killing the native people, who > didn't ask them to come. Sure, some of them eventually abandon the fight and > are absorbed into Thyatian society, but many other continue the fighting. The > Thyatians may think it's good not only for the empire, but also for the people > they're conquering - after all, they bring them culture, trade, roads, cities, > etc. They never asked for them? Well, too bad, the Thyatians bring it to them > nevertheless. And some natives get killed in the effort, too? > The emperor and the senate decided to conquer and colonize the Hinterlands, and > they can't ignore that they are forcing their culture onto a people who didn't > ask for it, and they are killing many in the process. So by some people's > reasoning, they are evil. And since in Thyatis the senators are elected by the > citizens, then all citizens are evil too, because they gave those senators > power and if they cared for the poor Hinterlanders they would remove the > current senators from power and elect good ones instead. Thus, all Thyatians > are evil. > > ===== > ___________________________________________________________ > Herve Musseau > http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:58:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Planer Travel In-Reply-To: <20001125104512.A14450@esatclear.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Gordon McCormick wrote: > I want to try and making plane hopping *wierd*. Nothing too > standard, I want them to *know* that they are not in kansas > anymore. Any suggestions on how to emphasize the wierdness? > Any ideas for wierd things to happen? (Not just in the canon > descriptions, any wierd things you think will help!) > > Also, one of my players plays in a Planescape campaign, so I > want to keep things quite different from the feel of those > adventures (don't want him getting bored!) - having not played > Planescape, any suggestions for maintaining a different 'feel'? The Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny, recently collected in The Great Book of Amber has great descriptions of the multitudes of worlds features in those books. The worlds there are often described as similar to the real world (in any one time period), but as the desceriptions go on, more and more details are just wrong: the skies are orange, the birds and small apes are green etc. Also, I like the Amber version of plane travel. When moving to a different plane, you have to walk (or drive or whatever), and as you move, the surroundings gradually change from being that of one world to that of the other. The more different the new world is, the longer you have to walk to get all the details right. Just a few thoughts. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:58:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards (Was Good King Stefan) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: >> Ohh, good call, James. PWAII p.219: Igor Grygorovich of Kelvin is a = Traladaran mage, who teaches ancient Traladaran magic and enchantment = techniques. He is a 27th (!) level mage as of AC1011.<< Master's Pawn wrote: > What more is mentioned of him? Did he sit out the whole Thyatian = occupation? > Sounds like a 'power to be reckoned with' kind of NPC in any = Karameikos > campaign. Has anyone on the list done more work on him? Derek Adam wrote: > Geez! Where was this guy during the various rebellions? A character = like > this would have been rather influential. He could have kicked the > Thyatians all the way back to border, and then some. He must have = been > plane-walking or something. According to the same source (PWAII p.219), "Igor has spent decades = researching ancient Traladaran tomes to rediscover magic spells thought = lost." It would seem that he is similar to the old professors at my = university. He is disinterested in the events taking place around him, = so long as he is left undisturbed with his research. Obviously he = doesn't take any interest in politics. He is probably totally out of = touch with current events, having just spent another five months locked = up in his study with a 'no disturb' sign on the door, restoring an = ancient Traldar text that he found almost completely intact (All Right!) = in a ruined mountain village earlier last year. ;) The faculty of the = Karameikan School of Magecraft finally managed to get a message through = to him, and he decided to pass on the knowledge he has unearthed, so = that others might not have to unearth it again in 500 years time. This mail (except for the obvious quote part) is all conjecture and = speculations, but a reasonable explanation, IMO, of why he didn't go = kicking Thyatian butt. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:13:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve Musseau wrote: > And since in Thyatis the senators are elected by the > citizens, then all citizens are evil too, because they gave those senators > power and if they cared for the poor Hinterlanders they would remove the > current senators from power and elect good ones instead. Thus, all Thyatians > are evil. Well, actually, the (elected) senators are elected by the local people of a certain region, so it only needs 50%+1 people of a given electoral zone to be evil to elect an evil senator. In order for the senate to keep an evil policy, it is enough to have 50%+1 evil senators. So, it is enough to have slightly more than 25% of the population being evil to support evil policies, provided that they are well distributed :) Raising the proportion to 30% evil makes thing more realistic, if one considers that neutral people are as likely to vote for a good candidate as for an evil one. If we have 50% neutrals, at least some of them will vote for the evil candidates, raising the support for those candidates to, say, 40%. Which more than enough to control the senate. And we have not considered evil senators buying votes and performing all the other usual cheatings which are well known from the Classical Age in the RW, and which good candidates won't obviously try. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:06:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob wrote: > And given that Mystara isn't supposed to be an enlightened 21st = century > place, what is this about "forcing culture onto others"? Next thing = we'll > have a Mystaran UN complete with Security Council. Aka Alphatia in the HW... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:19:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Planer Travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gordon McCormick wrote: > I'm about to send the PC's out into the big bad world of > planer adventure. I've read up on the planes in the Cyclopedia > and Wrath but was wondering what wisdom the list could share > in regards to planer adventure. You wouldn't by any chance have M5: Talons of Night? It has excellent = ideas on how to tackle outer planes, such as: - Time flows at different rates. (Thincol and Eriadna lived an entire = lifetime on another plane, during the course of this adventure.) - As the PCs journey deeper into planes influenced by the Sphere of = Death (Entropy), they slowly turn into undead (free-willed zombie-like = beings), and healing spells don't work as they should. - A plane made up of a giant thornbush with thorn forests growing on it = and strands between the giant thorns. - A plane consisting of a giant chasm with a horizontal tower built on = the edge. PCs maneuver along ledges on the side of the chasm, while = biting winds tear at them. Also I think IM3: Best of Intentions, IIRC, included some cards briefly = describing all sorts of weird planes. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:32:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > > And given that Mystara isn't supposed to be an enlightened 21st century > place, what is this about "forcing culture onto others"? Next thing we'll > have a Mystaran UN complete with Security Council. Until the last hundred Well, we already have NATO and EU (aka WDL and NACE), so... :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:42:54 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Planer Travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I want to try and making plane hopping *wierd*. Nothing too > standard, I want them to *know* that they are not in kansas > anymore. Any suggestions on how to emphasize the wierdness? > Any ideas for wierd things to happen? (Not just in the canon > descriptions, any wierd things you think will help!) > We talking standard planes or Immortal made ones? One that works for all of them is if a PC becomes the summonee in a spell by someone on the prime. If they're on an elemental plane have them interact with a family of Elementals who are angered and shocked by the fact that one of their children has been stolen and forced into slavery by someone on the Prime using a conjure elemental spell. Maybe the spell works like an addictive drug so that they will not want to stop etc. The frightening "Hostile magic cast by those who are not my followers fails" clause in a made plane is best not sprung upon them until they have several trips under their belts. The plane of Rhyme where everything has to be in verse will lead to bad puns and bad tempers very quickly. Literalism on the part of planedwellers can be very entertaining, "there's a hole in my bucket" etc. Use the wrong information that the Planescaper has to good effect. I once had an adventure where the players had to go to the plane of Ash. They bounced all over trying to get items which would allow them to survive in the AD&D cosmology plane of that name, despite having several pages of notes detailing Mystaran cosmology in front of them. I gave them no help at all as they cast all those expensive one use scrolls and drank all those irreplaceable potions then appeared in a small wooded glade. "What sort of trees are they?", said the party druid. "Ash. ", I replied chuckling. Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 04:42:51 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: D&D items on sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know if anyone here is interested, but my friend who runs a (mostly) comic online business posted this info in his latest mailer: ---- =95 PREVIEWS UPDATE #451: GAMES, GAMES, GAMES! Diamond Distribution pumps out their own weekly Newsletter, where they sometimes include solicitations for the very first time - before the items are listed in Previews. That's what happened with these products: > DUNGEONS & DRAGONS BOXED SET REPRINTS > Not since the release of the AD&D 2nd Edition has this > information been reprinted. Available for the first time > are smaller, easier-to-collect reprints of the popular > AD&D First Edition game boxed sets (which have long > been unavailable). Perfect for collectors of Dungeons & > Dragons, as well as the younger generation of TSR fans. > Expected to ship 12/6/00. > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5378 > Basic Edition (TWE1001) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5379 > Dark Sun (TWE2400) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5380 > Elminster's Ecologies (TWE1111) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5381 > Expert Edition (TWE1012) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5382 > Menzoberranzan (TWE1083) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5383 > Ruins of Myth Drannor (TWE1084) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5384 > Ruins of Undermountain (TWE1060) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5385 > Time of the Dragon (TWE1050) -- Reprint $14.95 > > ITEM CODE: Sep00 5386 > World of Greyhawk (TWE1015) -- Reprint $14.95 We know these games will be popular with comics fans, so let us know if you're interested. Order by December 15th, and receive 30% off - that's just $10.45 per box set Don't miss out again -- Order today, Scarabs!=20 ---- A couple of Mystara related items in there (Basic and Expert sets? Geez! What made them decide to reprint those?) Anyway, if you're interested in getting these items, just mail Brian Johnson at brian@khepri.com He's a good guy, and should treat you right. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 04:47:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in Stefan's description and actions. Actually, maybe you should try. There are already some elements in canon itself (like he can't see evil in other people); more can be added for where it seems less obvious, and this can result in a very interesting Karameikos setting [for example you might say that Ludwig has some of Olivia's informants in his pay, so that the reports that come to Olivia are milded, and because Olivia isn't a good character herself she thinks it's better to leave the Black Eagle in control over there and thus gives Stefan an even more benign view on things]. James did a good job at taking an opposite hypothesis (Stefan knows and is rather cruel at heart, prefering to do or allow evil to be done if it serves his plans better). With several playable alternatives various DMs, depending on their preference and the orientation of their campaign, can then choose and adapt one of these scenarios. Myself I thing Stefan is good but a lot of things is hidden from him, and he isn't an excellent ruler as a result even though he's well-intentioned. Some of his actions turn out well, and he ends up with a Terari, and some do not, and he ends up with a Bargle. But I can see why some poeple would think he can't ignore the dark facts and thus must be evil, and depending on the tone of my campaign, even though I would keep him actually good, I may induce the players and their NPC contacts to think otherwise and work against Stefan [like, a campaign with Traladaran PCs]. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:15:06 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its not the EU that I know and hate :-) I dont see over 60% of the Jennites opposed to it after all... The WDL is kindof cool. However, it remains to be seen if it is a paper tiger or not, which I suspect it might be. Cheers �Rob� > Rob wrote: > > > > And given that Mystara isn't supposed to be an enlightened 21st century > > place, what is this about "forcing culture onto others"? Next thing we'll > > have a Mystaran UN complete with Security Council. Until the last hundred > > Well, we already have NATO and EU (aka WDL and NACE), so... :) > > -- > ****************** > Aleksei Andrievski > aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star > solmyr@kolumbus.fi > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:27:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve Musseau wrote: > > >My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon > description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not > going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in > Stefan's description and actions. > > Actually, maybe you should try. [...] If the choice is between searching for far-fetched explanation to keep Stefan good, and modifying Stefan alignment/motivations, I think the second is easier, and leads to a more beliveable result, with a lesser effort... why should I go for the first? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:54:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Thyatians >> I think this "conquering is evil and whoever does it should be smacked down" ideal is a bad thing. << Plus, if the author of the "Thyatians: all evil" screed applied that reasoning consistantly, all his Alphatians would have to leave Mystara or agree to be ruled by others. They certainly couldn't run their own Empire, since all of it was aquired by conquest, and Alphatians have no place on Mystara they can call their own. But I don't think he meant to apply those claims consistantly. (See also my earlier remarks on warmaking &tc. and whether that's sufficient reason to declare the MoH as evil for my opinion on the war & conquest thing. But we're talking Herve's opinion here, and I guess we can expect him to depict all Alphatian spellcasters as evil from now on, since they run an empire that exists due to conquest, enslavement of non-Alphatians, &tc.) If it wasn't for Thyatis, the whole world probably would have been conquered by the grasping hand of Alphatia; thus the entire planet would have been run by a crude and cruel despotism. Thyatis's defense of its eastern frontier, tying down the Alphatians, formed a barrier behind which the rest of the Known World could develop their own societies. As for the "forcing their culture on others" part, well Alphatians tend to do that much more than Thyatians do (see DotE for each Empire's attitudes towards other cultures). Now, some Thyatians are different - HKs, for example, and Stefan - they like to force their opinions on others, compelling them to knuckle under to their way of doing things, but they had to leave Thyatis to do so. And Thyatians don't usually put their greedy, nasty half-brothers (Lernal) and cousins (Ludwig) in positions of authority - again with the exception of those who have to leave Thyatis to do so. One simply has to look at the light-handed way with which Thyatis governed Traladara before Stefan came, and compare that with Stefan's way (shove everyone's customs asside and Borg them), or with Esterhold - or even with Norwold, where the local (Heldanner) folks are being shoved asside as fast as possible. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traldaran Wizards Has anyone done an NPC description of that dude? If not, we could write something up (Jacob Skytte's backround surmise sounds like a good place to start for his personality &tc). Doing a character description/sketch would at least be productive. 8-) We could start with a OD&D version, then do AD&D 2E & D&D 3E translations. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:25:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law >> Of course, as a side note, I think that this thread has gone woefully off-topic. << Yah, but as you know, topics tend to morph and spin off sub-topics as they go on. I usually go with the flow and where the flow of discussion takes me and others. >> Where things went ugly was when certain people insisted on judging our views as fundamentally "wrong" because they reinterpreted the Holy Writ of canon. << Yep. >> We have presented evidence for our views here, as have the members of the "other side." << At which point a certain someone, newly returned to the list, employed his usual tactic of getting all offended when people he disagrees with employ evidence, while simoultaniously endorsing such use of evidence (limited basically to asserting "it says LG") when done by those he agrees with. Now, one thing I like about Auld Skald, for example, is he employs evidence to support his position without deploring those who disagree with him for doing the same - and he has shown he respects other folks positions & opinions even if he doesn't share them. I could learn something from him on that myself. 8-) But at least I don't decry folks for using reasoning & materiel to support their opinions while doing so myself. Now, as you might remember from the "Canon Wars" of X long ago, I have too minds on that: On the one hand, "canon" gives us a basis of commonality of discussion (it makes a good reference at least since we're more likely to have access to the same info than if we just talked the particulars of our own campaigns, where I'm pretty sure *each* of us "deviates" from "canon" in large and small ways) - but it's a starting point for discussion, a foundation. Note I also typically put "canon" in quotation marks (you can see it there). And, for example, someone might, in their campaign, transmogrify, say, Alphatia to a high degree, making it "Alphatia: Empire of Entreprenures", which is fine and can lead to some interesting discussions and variety of presentations, but OtoH I do go with those who say that the "default" position for all these is the "canon" one (thus, for example, I find it very hard to swallow the concept of the "benevolence of the Alphatian Empire" - but, as folks hav! ! e pointed out, aspects of that are embeded in "canon", but I find those parts risible and evidencing the author in question's lack of knowlege. But then, somehow, certain folks have this image of me as adamantly adhering to all "canon" none the less. Bizzare, because if anyone doesn't blindly adhere to all things "canon" regardless of judgement, I'm certainly not that person.) In another mail, Jenn also wrote: >> On 11/23/00 10:49 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: << >>>> I dislike strongly people that regurgitate the Gazetteers in such a way to silence someone or prove themselves. <<<< >> Well, "regurgutation" is kind of the basis of the whole thing, to an extent. I cite my evidence, others cite theirs. Okay, fine. << Actually, I didn't write that; it was someone else. I replied to that. Note also that in a mail immediately following that statement, it's author endorsed someone doing exactly that (he "had to agree" with a certain other someone who asserted Stefan must be LG because it says so right in "canon"), which was what I was getting at in my above comments. Now, I'd be happy if these folks could stick with such a position ("don't use canon to silence people's opinions or prove a point"), rather than using it as a means simply to whip those they disagree with into not using it, while reserving the option for themselves and those they agree with to do exactly that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:48:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment >> Yes, it came in late for me, and so I only caught it after I wrote this assessment, My apologies to David, and to anyone else that I bored with my verbosity << Don't be sorry; you put it well. I wrote: >> Yes, Lando Molari might, sometimes, do some nice, endearing things, he might even, << Of course I meant Londo, not Lando. >> Well, I do hate to pursue something as subjective (and thus fundamentally hollow) as an alignment discussion, but calling that one was certainly fun. << True, and this topic sort of became that (in my earliest several posts, I was careful to leave alignment as such completely out of it, but as the subject developed I didn't stick with that). >> Once you remove yourself from the "canon says he's LG" straightjacket, there are nearly infinte possibilities in regards to his character. << True. In some ways this is one of the admirable things about game systems that don't use any form of alignment: one doesn't have to look at Dunkelzahan, Richard Villiers or Lofwyr purely through an alignment-based lens - it can be a fun thought-experiment to "guess" what their alignment is, but one isn't "pushed" to view all their behavior in a certain light based on an alignment ascribed to them; their actual behavior and attitudes come more to the fore; and, indeed, when more comes out about such characters, one is more likely to revise whatever "alignment guess" one had of them than try to revise the behavior to fit some listed alignment ("boy, I thought X was total amoral scum, but he really came through" or "wow, that kindly helper stuff was all an act, setting everone up for the big stab, nasty - I thought he was a good guy, he was just a long-sighted schemer" - one evaluates the characters based on their actual actions {usually mixed rather than all lilly-white or darke! ! st pit of blackness} rather than pushing things into the "alignment"). >> It just bothers me that I'm willing to accept that people might _choose_ to see Stefan as LG (because *they* choose it, rather than because it's what was printed on paper), but they're not willing to accept that he might be LE, to me, or CN, to you with equal legitimacy. << Yes, well. . .as Calvin said to Hobbes, "you know how people are. They never recognize greatness unless some authority confirms it." >> Yes, that's one of my biggest sticking points with his character. I think that Stefan is a classic wolf in (dirtied) sheep's clothing. << Yep. One might say there's nothing wrong with ambition, but how one pursues ones ambitions (and the exact content of those ambitions - an ambition to "put right what once went wrong" is different from an ambition to shape and mold a nation in one's own image, for example). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on "his" Art Work >> However, the painting is part of a "New Karameikan" art movement meant to "modernize" Traladaran artwork (interestingly, complete with a Stefan-lookalike Halav, and royal family lookalikes in the crowd...). << Yes, good to bring that up. That's part of where I derive the "Cult of Personality" remarks (here's the Halav-as-Stefan painting, there's the Halav-recieving-the-submission-of-the-dispicable-Traladarans painting, complete with a image of Magda Marilenev fawning over him. Then, for those of you who admire Alphatia and "Terari", there's the painting of the ministers - why is it that "Terari" looks like an unkempt lout? Where's his spider-silk robe? Is that how people imagine "Terari" too look? Why the unflattering portrature for him? He looks like a surly thug one would find in a seedy dive in that picture.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:23:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Planer Travel In-Reply-To: ; from hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO on Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 12:58:16PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 12:58:16PM +0100, H�vard wrote: > > The Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny, recently collected in The Great > Book of Amber has great descriptions of the multitudes of worlds features > in those books. I really like the Amber chronicles, and have stolen many an idea from them already for my campaign :) (And more than a few for my Shadowrun campaign too...) Must reread the descriptions of some of the wierder places near the Logrus... On Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:19:29PM +0100, Jacob Skytte wrote: > You wouldn't by any chance have M5: Talons of Night? Unfortunately no :( > - Time flows at different rates. (Thincol and Eriadna lived an entire > lifetime on another plane, during the course of this adventure.) And they got on quite well too as I recall :) > - As the PCs journey deeper into planes influenced by the Sphere of Death > (Entropy), they slowly turn into undead (free-willed zombie-like beings), > and healing spells don't work as they should. Oooh, definetly using that one! On Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 12:42:54PM -0000, Paul George Dooley wrote: > We talking standard planes or Immortal made ones? Both, the PC's are on a quest to Pyts (yeah, I know), and will have to travel through a variety of places to get in the back door as it were. > If they're on an elemental plane have them interact with a family of > Elementals who are angered and shocked by the fact that one of their > children has been stolen and forced into slavery by someone on the Prime > using a conjure elemental spell. Maybe the spell works like an addictive > drug so that they will not want to stop etc. Oooh, I like both those ideas, I can see bored young elementals hanging around nodes hoping to be summoned just for the kick of it. Cool :) > The plane of Rhyme where everything has to be in verse will lead to bad > puns and bad tempers very quickly. Oh, I love that one :) > Use the wrong information that the Planescaper has to good effect. I > once had an adventure where the players had to go to the plane of Ash. They > bounced all over trying to get items which would allow them to survive in > the AD&D cosmology plane of that name, despite having several pages of notes > detailing Mystaran cosmology in front of them. I gave them no help at all as > they cast all those expensive one use scrolls and drank all those > irreplaceable potions then appeared in a small wooded glade. "What sort of > trees are they?", said the party druid. "Ash. ", I replied chuckling. LOL! Oh I am so using that! :) Thanks for the help, keep em coming! :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:39:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara >> I've never denied the culpability of the Marilenevs in the Rebellion; only questioned the extent of the brutality with which the revolt was crushed. Certainly, both sides of the conflict have done terrible things. << True, but what bothers me (and, I donno, may bother you as well), is that various means are used to suggest that what Stefan did was ok because "the Traladarans had it coming" - it does sort of remind me of a scene in Red Dawn (old movie, not a great movie I guess), where one of the dudes asks "if we do X, how is that different from them" and the retort is "Because we live here!" - Thats not a full excuse that covers any depravity and slaughter, but, IMO, when you're acting against a "foreign occupier" if you will, some things *do* go. As for what the Traladarans do (or try, anyhow) - doesn't sound much different, stripped of the propaganda at least, from what PCs routinely do (Overlord Y in X castle has taken over the nation, sneak in and try and kill him at the behest of Patron B, a local leader who has hired them to help free the land from Overlord Y). I mean, based on that, when Wendar sends the characters into Denagoth, Wendar is engaging in political assassination and the PCs are the assassins. I'm sure the Shadow Lord looks at it that way. >> My point was to examine the "bad" things Stefan has done, as "canon" has certainly already cast the Traladaran clans in a not-so-nice light. << True; the demonization of the Traladaran leaders goes hand-in-glove with the simoultanious infantilizing of the average Traladarans, to excuse Stefan's actions. I wonder what would happen if I attempted the same sort of thing regarding, say, the Thratians (Hinterlanders)? "all their leaders are *EVIL* and the rest of the population needs guidance in order to progress, so the Thyatians are good" (we've heard the "other side" from Herve today) - I'm sure the Thyatians promote such an image among themselves, but it'd be silly for us (players rather than characters in the game) to fall for it, and if I (or anyone else) tried to depict it as that way "objectively and as the true condition", people would (rightly) think it an absurd stretch - including, I might add, many if not most of the same people who think it's plausable to do that when it comes to Stefan. No, these things are more mixed-at-best than to say the "civilizing outsider is right, the locals misguided and under bad rule, so the civilizing outsider is doing good by supressing the local leaders and uplifting the locals to his/their version of civilization." - I do note that "some" of Stefan's admirers have decried the Thyatians for having this attitude, while admiring Stefan for having it. Bizzare? You tell me. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:35:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Fwd: [MYSTARA] Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes / No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) [Off-list] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was originally going to send this message as an off-list reply but, I wanted to let you all know by way of this post that I'm sorry to have contributed to the clutter on the list recently, over what I think was a basic misunderstanding on my part. The parties below are of direct interest to this post, but if you have blindly deleted all posts in threads like Good King Stefan, etc., then none of this post is relevant to you and you can delete it. BoBoII@AOL.COM, valerya1@YAHOO.COM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET, c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM, agathokles@LIBERO.IT, Daniel.Eustace.B@BAYER.COM, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI >In a message dated 11/24/2000 8:32:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >valerya1@YAHOO.COM writes: > ><< Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to > get a definitive answer, once and for all. I don't think it would be bad to ask him a simple question, but I don't think that question would end up really being simple, nor would it end discussion if you phrased it in a way that one "side" disagreed with. Whether you let sleeping dogs lie or ask him out of curiosity is up to you. I'm darned curious myself, though to be honest, and it would definitely help shut me up about author intent. =;) > Jenn > > >> >Oh, leave him alone. This has gone on long enough. I KNOW I am not the list >administrator, but would you all please continue this as a person to person >e-mail discussion and leave the rest of us out of this. I agree it has gotten out of hand, and that I have not helped by arguing so frequently. =;) Still, there are some fairly neutral parties that /have/ contributed to the discussion. Andrew Thiesman is one example that pops to mind, but there are others. I think Beau Yarbrough has popped a word in once in a while, too. >You all are starting >to remind me of the Republicans and Democrats in Florida. You are not going >to convince the other side that you are 'right.' Accept that fact. Very good point. Two problems with these threads is that some (yes, myself, but I'm not alone) had missed the original point of these threads, and that we've taken positions that look a lot like "I'm right, you're wrong." I think the general discussion /should/ continue but on the understanding that the two "sides" will not change each other's minds about their preferred alignment for Stefan and should stop trying to. Having said that, I should say that I am not trying to defend Stefan as being LG because I necessarily prefer him that way, just that I am trying to find the most consistent view of canon possible, preferably without making any changes to it. (James noted that I was willing to defend Stefan as LN, when that's what I thought it was listed as.) That's not because I think canon is some holy work or something. It's just that I would like to try to keep with the intended spirit of the campaign as written. Others obviously don't, and that's fine, too. Jenn and James say Stefan's actions need to be interpreted backwards to determine his alignment, but that is what I think is just slightly misleading, because that is not the whole picture. It's true, but you must also consider intent, and the way intent is *described* in D&D is with alignment. There are cases when the /same/ action could be taken by people of good, neutral, /and/ evil morals, but for completely different reasons, or intents. That is the core of my argument. This is the reason that I feel the burden of proof is upon us to show his actions are completely incompatible with LG, before we say it /should/ be changed. I remain unconvinced that there is enough evidence to show it is *impossible* to interpret his actions as being consistent with LG. That being said, Jenn is right that if we take his actions alone, and in the absence of a listed alignment, it is *totally* possible to assign a different alignment to him and keep the rest of canon consistent. If that's what we're /really/ trying to do, then more power to it. >And while >I appreciate that you may be trying to score points with the 'independents' >on the list, like myself, I may be partly guilty of this. Really, I just didn't want the alternate view of Karameikos to be touted as "right." Jenn's post points out that wasn't quite the original intent, but that's what started to come out of it. Mostly, I'm trying to find the most consistent view of canon possible, even given that there are always some inconsistencies in a work of fiction. To that end, even if an independent "scores" a point against me by pointing out an error, I am actually grateful. I wouldn't want either side to so-called "win" on misinformation. >when and if the characters in my campaign go to >Karameikos, I will decide how best to portray Stefan based on the needs of my >players and my Campaign. Just_Like_All_Of_You_Do. And not unlike ordering >Chinese food, I will probably take a little from one MML contributors post, a >little form another, some from the Gaz, and some from my own imagination >(which is probably hopelessly contaminated from too much fantasy literature >and history texts). > >Thanks > >Please, assume that I have already imagined most of the things you are going >post in response to this, flame and non-flame alike, and don't send them, >okay? But if you MUST have the last word, go right ahead, but have mercy on >the rest and send them to me and not the list. My last words are, "Oops," and "I'm sorry." -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:19:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Inner Circle Gaz: 1) Indipendent Lands of Cholonis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CHOLONIS Area: 37,300 kmq Population: 95,700 (70% humans, 30% rakastas) Government Type: Cholonis is administered by a council of 11 Lords, hereditary nobles of the state. The Council votes every five year for its talesman, who has the duty of conducting negotiations, treaties, and wars, with the neighbouring kingdoms. Important Figures: Lady Fuschia, elected Taleswoman of the Council Description: Cholonis is the northwestern kingdom of the Inner Circle, and is partly outside the area of effect of the Devices. This portion of the land, known as Lyxionis, is settled by about 28,000 rakasta, while the humans live in the area of effect of the engines, the proper Cholonis. Lyxionis is quite cold, and is a hilly forest where rakastas act as hunters, woodcutters and foresters. The forest of Lyxionis covers about 25,000 kmq, and the only big settlement there is Pavan (9,000 rakastas). Cholonis, a much smaller region, hosts the human population and the capital city of Ydwan (26,000 humans). Most of the lords come from this city, although they have theorically one seat for each of the eleven �cities� of Cholonis (not really cities, having a pop. that ranges from 1,000 to 2,000 ). There is a quiescent conflict among the two regions of Cholonis. The rakastas, organized since 983 in the so-called Trade Unions (not officially recognized by the government), try to get more rights for themselves, as their economical situation is much worse than that of those who live inside the Inner Circle. While the central government�s indifference at the subjects� situation out of the capital is well accepted inside the Inner Circle part of Cholonis, where the citizens are happy to be left alone and are able to live well thanks to the Devices, the rakastas would prefer a greater involvement of the Council, and possibly some economical benefit for their land. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:19:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Nentsun's Inner Circle- General Description (updated) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NENTSUN AC 1000: THE INNER CIRCLE Area: 366,500 kmq (143,164 sq.m) Population: 1,076,000. Language: Nentsunian, Rakastan (Lynxmen dialect), Ursinian. Coinage: Sin (gp), Yai (sp), Chu (cp). Description: The Inner Circle is the northern part of Nentsun. It is known also as the Nentsun Coast, as it stretches along the shores of the Sea of Simurgh (the name by which the Sea of Brun is known on this side of the ocean). About half of the Inner Circle�s land is covered by forests (mostly ash and coniferous), while the other half is settled by human and rakastan farmers, who get along very well and are distributed equally in most of the kingdoms. The agricoltural activities deal with potatoes and wheat, and they are quite productive, if we consider the latitude. This is a consiquence of the power of the Unholy Devices, who keep the land a little warmer than it would otherwise be. The sea outside Nentsun is cold, and cold currents wash its shores, making the area not suited to an �industrial� fishing, although there are fishermen in the small villages of the coast. There are eight kingdoms, here. From west, the first kingdom is Cholonis; then there is Selemy; south of Selemy is Zeshuita; east of both are Vixen (north), Einikushagi (center) and Wolven (south); lastly, east of Einikushagi is Pakishagij and lastly, in the easternmost border of the Inner Circle is Ursi. The People: The settlers of the Inner Circle call themselves collectively as Insunians (Nentsunians of the Inner Circle). They are all humans and rakastas, with few exceptions (like the orc enclave of Einikushagi). Humans belong to the Nentsunian racial stock: they are descendants of the aboriginal settlers of the area, the Nasuuans, of mixed Thonian and Afridhi ethnicity. They are tall, of a sort of beige tan that is completely unique in Skothar, with white-blond or blue-black hair, and brown or green eyes. Blue or black eyes are very uncommon, but not impossible to find. Brown hair is also rare. In Ursi, the common human population are the so-called Ursinians, descended from a peaceful race of mixed Afridhi and Tanagoro stock who arrived here 1,700 years ago. The Ursinians founded the cities of Ursi and Selemy, and while most of them mixed with the Nentsunians (providing the genes for the rare black or brown haired, and blue-eyed among them), in Ursi they remained quite similar to their ancestors, and they mantain a language that they pretend to call Ursinian, but that is just a Nentsunian dialect with a strong accent, and some old true-Ursinian words in it. However, in these cities, the people are generally of more slender built than the average Nentsunian, their skin is somewhat darker, and they have mostly dark brown and black hair, and brown or blue eyes. Rakastas here belong to the Lynxmen stock. A small enclave of orcs called Ondonti live in Einikushagi [see below]. Flora and Fauna: Ash, coniferous, pastures, farmlands cover the region, depending on the humanoid presence and the Devices� influence. Deer, elks, bears, lynxs, wolves live in the forests. Lynxs and dogs are kept as domestic animals; cows, sheep and goats are among those farmed. No types of chicken seem to exist here, nor do pigs. Several species of small mammals, many different birds, and birds of prey (eagles, hawks), live in the region. The hilly regions of the Inner Circle are also home to a number of giant worms of different species, that sometimes pose a big threat to the smaller communities. Some of the animals are somewhat different from those of the Known World, being different varieties of the same species (ex. there are both the brown bear and the black bear, who is mostly unknown in the KW). Sometimes, a mammoth coming from the Outer Circle may be sighted. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:21:31 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Traldaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2000 12:09:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Has anyone done an NPC description of that dude? If not, we could write something up (Jacob Skytte's backround surmise sounds like a good place to start for his personality &tc). Doing a character description/sketch would at least be productive. 8-) >> He seems like a nice npc to take the niche in a karameikos campaign as 'the old guy who knows all about ancient Traladara.' He's the one who's assistant is always asking the players to go poking around looking for stuff, will buy old artifacts, etc. But its a quest and a half just trying to get an audience with him. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:30:13 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > > In case the fighter manages to resist Bargle's Charm Person spell, Bargle is too surprised to stop the hero from hitting him, but as he does, Bargle casts his Feign Death spell and then falls to the ground... The fighter, thinking that his blow was deadly, loots Bargle's body and then leaves the villain for dead... Much to displeasure of good folk, and joy of DMs everywhere ;) > > > > - The Stalker > > Fighters are not SO stupid! > > Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola It's something screwed by the taylor-made "Detect Life" spell... ;-) Anyway, that reminds me much of plying Unreal online.. EVERYBODY shoots at the corpses... just to make sure the dead are _really_ dead, for *there is* a feign death feature, there. Very funny. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:35:31 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Detect / Feign (was: "Bargle Death") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fighters jokes usually spill blood. Careful with that blade. Oooooouch! ;-) I think the guy that wrote "The Complete Wizards Handbook" (is it the book that describes the "Detect Life" spell?) used to hate Feign Death... vini. Caroletti wrote: > > > > > > > > >Fighters are not SO stupid! > > > > > >Uh...what is "Feign Death"? 8-) > > > > > > > "I rest my case!" :) > > > > Sorry, I know it's heresy! > > Thanks for the explanation, I knew...I was joking, but no, obviously an > Alphatian couldn't understand that even FIGHTERS ARE ABLE TO JOKE! > 8-) > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:42:59 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > > - I had none of the gazetteers last January, but now there are only four I don't have (of fifteen, including DOTE), so it *is* possible to find them! > > I miss only two...ha! Thyatis wins, Alphatia loses! 8-) > And one of them is "The Five Shires", so I don't care anyway...hey, Beau, > have you any idea of what those halflings are doing here at the Harbour....hey.. > hey! (anguished look)...WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis Is the other the "Hawaiian" Gazeteer? hahaha! I've got: - DOTE (Sorry, man) - The Northern Reaches - KKoA - The Emirates of Ylaruam Not GAz, but cool: - Creature Crucible: the Sea People - The Rage of the Rakasta - The Night of the Vampire - Hail the Heroes - First Quest (alright, I love those CDs...) And all those "Van Richten's..." to make the SW Karameikos "lovely citizens" even more deadly. Andru, Vandevic... they rock! Who the heck is the weak being known as "Strahd", BTW? :-p vini. PS: ?Thanks to all of you who helped me to buy these lvely wares in May (TSR Last Call). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:55:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaun Muncy Subject: Arkon's Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We interrupt the Karamikos argument for an announcement: I will be beginning my 3E Mystara online game "Path of Echos" early this January. * The PCs are members of a Glantri expedition to explore ruins in the Isle of Dread, Sorcerers, Paladins and Clerics are not allowed. Wizards are encouraged. All others are Mercenaries. Alphatians will be executed on sight. * If you sent me an E-Mail earlier and did not recieve a Reply, I did not recive your E-Mail. This is a problem I am having quite often now. I will Reply to all mail I recieve in 2 days. * Be careful what you invite, beware of the nameless ones. We now return you to our regularly scheduled dead horse flogging. "Chaos rules, so I'm in charge." - Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Ruler of the Lost City; Kobold Tactician; Keeper of the Mystic Sock. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes / No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) [Off-list] > I was originally going to send this message as an off-list reply but, Iwanted to let you all know by way of this post that I'm sorry to have contributed to the clutter on the list recently, over what I think was a basic misunderstanding on my part. << Its ok; I think there were episodes of misunderstanding all around. >> I don't think it would be bad to ask him a simple question, but I don't think that question would end up really being simple, nor would it end discussion if you phrased it in a way that one "side" disagreed with. << I guess I have to agree with that. On the one hand I'm often curious what something meant exactly, or what he intended to do with the plotlines he started in the first PWA, for example, and how that might (or might not have, for all I *really* know) differ from how things were actually handled in subsiquent ones, his take on this or that thing he wrote and the exact reasoning behind it. But on another level, do we really *want* to know? If any of us get an answer we don't like, will we be happy to have it? Will it matter? More importantly: *should* it matter? One thing I learned on the MMB with Bruce Heard around is that he's just a guy. A creative guy, with some interesting ideas, but just a guy. >> Andrew Thiesman << He was a good QB. Played for Washington. Too bad about that leg thing. (sorry, I couldn't resist. . .my bad). Andrew Thiesen 8-) As for the discussion on the list, well I will admit it's gone on and on, might not interest everyone, but that's never stopped topics before. I'm not always interested in every topic, but I can never remember a time when I've cut in and asked people to stop discussing it because I don't want the clutter. >> And not unlike ordering Chinese food, I will probably take a little from one MML contributors post, << Yah, but then if we don't post, then there isn't anything to take from it. I *do* admit that many of the points have gotten a little repeditive (to say the least), but in doing so I think many of them have also been put a different way. I don't know about you, but sometimes when I read something put one way, it doesn't seem very useful, but when the same or similar concept is cast through a somewhat different perspective/phrasing, it can take on a whole new light. Plus, if nothing else, some of this back and forth (well, some of it has been worthless) creates, for "independents" IMO, alot of depth - with a lot of deeper levels to the various facets of the issue at hand, there's more grist for the mill. One can then have NPCs holding views similar to the parties in the discussion, and their viewpoints aren't shallow (they have ready-made positions/arguments for many if not most of the counter-arguments they are presented with, all just given). Since most of the participants arguing "for" and "against" are doing so from a perspective that can very ofte! ! n be easily identified with what characters in the campaign might hold based on how *they* might look at things, it really only takes a few tweeks to incorporate it all. Might Stefan be a controvercial figure in the gameworld, rather than viewed, "in character" by people all one way or the other? If so, if he is controvercial (in spite of how, as a DM you decide he "really is" - whether it is all one or a mixture of various, sometimes conflicting, drives), then it's just possible that much of this might very well be useful to "independents" such as yourself, seen through that light. So get a big bowl of popcorn, watch, and gleen what you want to gleen. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traldaran Wizards >> He seems like a nice npc to take the niche in a karameikos campaign as 'the old guy who knows all about ancient Traladara.' He's the one who's assistant is always asking the players to go poking around looking for stuff, will buy old artifacts, etc. But its a quest and a half just trying to get an audience with him. << Ok; so what we have so far is a scholarly, reclusive wizard, not a guy that goes around blowing stuff up but someone who has a lot of knowlege and quirks, stores up old stuff, and has at least one assistant who hires explorers (the PCs) to find stuff and bring it back. It's hard to get to the dude himself, though (I suppose it will be easier once he starts teaching at the SoM, easier to find him that is, but harder to get "office hours", especially if you're not one of his "grad students" - he probably doesn't teach entry-level courses). He's not very worldly outside of his field. Where is he from? What events might have shaped his outlook? Does he have any living family? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:20:14 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Typical country ga�chos are people from the southermost state in Brazil. They're usually descendent of Italians, ride horses, use bolas and take care of cows and lambs. And drink a weird kind of boooooooiling tea wich has a LOT of caffein. And they clame to be the bravest people in the world. Does "gaucho" mean another thing? What does "gaucho" com e from in this context? How curious... vini. PS: They live on barbecues made in side huge holes in the ground: "entire cowns" (got with their lassos) staked and cooked for a whole day... Eric Anondson wrote: > > Here is an update of the gaucho prestige class I offered recently. I'm > still looking for feedback on this attempt. Am I missing something that > should be included? Would including any more begin making this p. class to > tough? Etc. > > Some things I did are obvious, I changed the name. I also shrunk the list > of the available feats for the legendary gaucho. I added lasso to the list > of weapons which the legendary gaucho is proficient in. Anything else I > miss? Here is the update... > > ------------------------------- > LEGENDARY GAUCHO - Hit Dice d10 > Lvl Attack Fort Ref Will Special > 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Horse control, Bonus Feat > 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Canny aim +1d10 > 3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Bonus Feat, Mounted Marksmanship +1d10 > 4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Rapid Reload > 5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat > 6 +6 +5 +5 +2 Canny aim +2d10 > 7 +7 +5 +5 +2 Bonus Feat > 8 +8 +6 +6 +2 Mounted Marksmanship +2d10 > 9 +9 +6 +6 +3 Bonus Feat > 10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Canny aim +3d10 > > REQUIREMENTS > HOMELAND: Must be a resident of the Savage Baronies > RIDE: 8 ranks > FEATS: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Track, Proficiency (bola, dagger, > firearms) > SPECIAL: Must purchase a light horse or light warhorse; and receive a > riding saddle, saddle blanket, bit and bridle, horseshoes, and saddlebags > without expenditure. A legendary gaucho never own horses larger than the > light horse or light warhorse. The legendary gaucho must also purchase > bolas, a dagger and a pistol. > SPECIAL: The legendary gaucho must have wagered his entire fortune in a > game of chance at least once before becoming a legendary gaucho. Whether it > was lost or not does not matter. There must have been a real chance of > losing it, and not a rigged game. > > CLASS SKILLS Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier > Animal Empathy (Cha) > Bluff (Cha) > Craft (Blacksmith) (Int) > Craft (Leatherworking)(Int) > Craft (Trapmaking)(Int) > Craft (Weaponsmithing, Crude)(Int) > Handle Animal (Cha) > Intimidate (Cha) > Intuit Direction (Wis) > Listen (Wis) > Ride (Dex) > Search(Int) > Spot (Wis) > Use Rope (Dex) > Wilderness Lore (Wis) > > CLASS FEATURES > WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY: Legendary gauchos are proficient with the > following weapons: Bola, club, dagger, dart, firearms(pistol), hand axe, > javelin,lasso, light lance, light pick, light flail, light mace, sabre, sap, > throwing axe, and whip. The gaucho is proficient in light armor. Legendary > gauchos are not proficient in shield. Pistols are not effective outside the > Haze, where the smokepowder loses its magical effect. > BONUS FEAT: At second level and every two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, > 8th and 10th) the legendary gaucho gains a new feat. These bonus feats must > be drawn from the following list: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, > Quickdraw, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Trample, Weapon Finesse (bola, > pistol or whip; choose one), Weapon Focus (bola, pistol or whip; choose > one). > CANNY AIM: At 2nd level, the legendary gaucho gains the extraordinary > ability to hit precisely with a shot from his pistol, gaining a bonus of > +1d10 points of damage added to his normal damage roll. When using his > canny aim, the legendary gaucho cannot attack with a weapon in his other > hand and also suffers a -4 penalty on all Reflex checks that round and > cannot rapid reload after firing. Like critical hits and sneak attacks, the > uncanny aim is ineffective against constructs, undead, and oozes; unlike > critical hits and sneak attacks, fortified armor is effected. Every four > legendary gaucho levels gained thereafter, he increases the extra damage by > +1d10. If the legendary gaucho also has the rogue�s sneak attack ability, > the canny aim stacks with the sneak attack damage. Canny aim is only > effective if the legendary gaucho is not in armor heavier than light armor, > and unmounted. > HORSE CONTROL: The legendary gaucho can control a light horse in battle > as if the horse was a trained warhorse. Horse control also gives the > legendary gaucho a +4 competance bonus to all ride checks. > MOUNTED MARKSMANSHIP: At 3rd level, the legendary gaucho gains the > extraordinary ability to hit precisely with a shot from his pistol while > mounted on his horse, gaining a bonus of +1d10 points of damage added to his > normal damage roll. When using his mounted marksmanship skill, the > legendary gaucho cannot attack with a weapon in his other hand and also > suffers a -4 penalty on all Reflex checks and cannot rapid reload after > firing. Further, the penalty the legendary gaucho suffers when using his > pistol from horseback is halved; -2 instead of -4 if the horse is taking a > double move, and -4 instead of -8 if the horse is running. The legendary > gaucho increases his extra damage by another +1d10 at level 8. Like > critical hits and sneak attacks, the mounted marksmanship extra damage is > ineffective against constructs, undead, and oozes; unlike critical hits and > sneak attacks, fortified armor is effected. Mounted marksmanship does not > stack with a rogue�s sneak attack like canny aim will. The legendary gaucho > cannot use his mounted marksmanship if the he is in armor heavier than light > armor. > RAPID RELOAD: The legendary gaucho has learned how to reload his pistol > fast enough that he no longer needs to spend a standard action reloading it. > This applies only to his own pistol, but after firing ten shots with an > unfamiliar pistol the legendary gaucho can also apply rapid reload to that > specific new pistol. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:23:45 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death (perhaps...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leonardo Damon Giuliani wrote: > > Il Sat, 18 November 2000, Jacob Skytte ha scritto: > > > And Aleena is "only" a 12th level cleric. Anyway, I wasn't adressing the simulacrum issue. But if I should, then I would say that people tend to get suspicious, when the mage they just killed turns to snow and melts into nothingness... > > > > Being serious for a moment, there are many, many ways that Bargle and Aleena could have cheated death, if not with their own skills, then through the machinations of others. And I'm sure that hated evil 15th level mages have contingencies (no, not the spell, though that could work too), especially for extended fights like the one you describe. > > > > Jacob Skytte > > Now that i think to that, I can't be sure that Bargle is really dead..... (I haven't buried his corpse). I can only tell you what my PC have done and seen, but > sincerely, I hope that he is dead, because he is not, he would be very angry with us.... I tell you, he is alive and working with people from many nations and serving an evil Immortal. > I should ask my DM for what she is planning for the future... :-) > Leonardo "Damon Whiteblade" Giuliani SSSSSSSSSSSSSsshe??? Lucky man. She-RPG players are rally sweet. Well, at least when not during their PMS period. Do avoid playing during that time. Now serious, laying with girls is very interesting; it adds to the game. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:39:15 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Bargle Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker wrote: (snip) > Then again, it's like my old Greyhawk DM always said - about 90% of all good role-playing is based firmly on the old and honorable tradition of looting corpses! :) Barbarian summer course: - raping the women I - killing the men II: cut, cut, cut... and burn - taking the children II: the slavery proficiency - salting the ground I: an intro to agressiveness - burning the huts II: hell-braking-loose procedures > I hadn't noticed myself that Feign Death was missing in 3e, but it doesn't surprise me - it's a somewhat useless spell for just the reasons you describe. I mean, how many of us bothered to learn it, let alone actually use it when we play mages ?? I certainly didn't, and I've played a number of mages in my time. > > - The Stalker More to the point of "Cause Death"... ;-) vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:34:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho In-Reply-To: <20001125222306.E21AD8176@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > Typical country ga=FAchos are people from the southermost state in Brazil. >=20 > They're usually descendent of Italians, ride horses, use bolas and take > care of cows and lambs. And drink a weird kind of boooooooiling tea wich > has a LOT of caffein. >=20 > And they clame to be the bravest people in the world. >=20 > Does "gaucho" mean another thing? What does "gaucho" com e from in this > context? How curious... > vini. >From my understanding, gaucho has also been the term for cattle rustlers of the Argentine Pampas who were very adept with the bolas (I didn't know they also were in Brazil too). I have also heard "gaucho" used by mexicans to refer to the American cowboy seen in Hollywood western movies. Thus the Gaucho character kit of the Savage Coast setting was a blend of the gaucho of the Pampas and the American gunslinging cowboy of the Wild West. > PS: They live on barbecues made in side huge holes in the ground: > "entire cowns" (got with their lassos) staked and cooked for a whole > day... If I remember they also ate the entire meal only using a big knife. Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:46:39 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Stalker and Mr. Sarlat. (Sorry for the delay, I've nearly lost aaaaaaaaall my Master Degree that was in the Hard Disk. Darned NTFS! Darned Bill Gates! Anyway, I'm back to all my 600 unread msgs... duh!) It's a very nice idea this of yours: the compromise stuff. You say "one year". Is that inside info? vini, the magus. Agathokles wrote: > > > Thanks, people, for the info. I'll check the link. I see I've got LOTS > > of material to get. I have the K:KoA but not the Gaz1 box. > > Where can I find Mystara stuff? People told me about e-Bay. There was > > that girl and her auction somwe 3 months ago... what else? > > It essentially depends on how much you're willing to pay or wait: if > you'd rather pay than wait, auctions are what you need. Otherwise, > you'll have to wait for WotC to release all of the old 2e and OD&D > material online (it will take one year, more or less). > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta > > agathokles@libero.it > agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:03:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evil Genius wrote: > >> He seems like a nice npc to take the niche in a karameikos campaign = as 'the old guy who knows all about ancient Traladara.' He's the one = who's assistant is always asking the players to go poking around looking = for stuff, will buy old artifacts, etc. But its a quest and a half just = trying to get an audience with him. << >=20 > Ok; so what we have so far is a scholarly, reclusive wizard, not a guy = that goes around blowing stuff up but someone who has a lot of knowlege = and quirks, stores up old stuff, and has at least one assistant who = hires explorers (the PCs) to find stuff and bring it back. >=20 > It's hard to get to the dude himself, though (I suppose it will be = easier once he starts teaching at the SoM, easier to find him that is, = but harder to get "office hours", especially if you're not one of his = "grad students" - he probably doesn't teach entry-level courses). >=20 > He's not very worldly outside of his field. Where is he from? What = events might have shaped his outlook? Does he have any living family? Here are some more suggestions mixed with a few adventure jump-offs: His assistant is actually his or a sibling's grandchild (or great-etc. = depending on his age, but I would suggest he isn't the longevity-type), = whom his family has appointed to keep track of him, and to make sure = that he gets regular meals. He sees the appointment at the SoM as a possibility to dig around in = what's left of Krakatos, and will of course refer to Krakatos (and any = other ancient Traladaran site) by it's original name. He insists on = calling Specularum/Mirros Marilenev, which causes no small amount of = confusion. The events that sparked his interest in Traladaran history probably took = place during his shearing. Did he stumble across some ancient ruins = while on a trek? Was he the only one who dared take work at an old = wizard? He still doesn't understand why his assistant hasn't arranged that = excavation trip to Halag (Fort Doom)... When he finally realizes how long-lived elves actually are, he = absolutely, definitely has to interview the elders of the Callarii! He grew up in a small Traladaran village with little or no contact with = Thyatians, and he has never really realized the effect the Thyatians = have had on his country. Perhaps he hasn't ever spent any real time in a = large Karameikan town/city? He has a romanticized view of his country, = and doesn't think much of current events, anyway. Statswise we know that his Int is 18 (from PWAII). Wis is likely average = or below average (not worldly). Good Con for/from mountain trekking, = though lowered with age? Good Dex for handling artifacts/restoring = texts? How old is he? 60? 70? Older? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:53:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes/No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) [Off-list] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:20 PM 11/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > >>> Andrew Thiesman << > >He was a good QB. Played for Washington. Too bad about that leg thing. >(sorry, I couldn't resist. . .my bad). Nah- heard 'em all. Thiesman, Theesen. Ah, well. >Andrew Thiesen 8-) Theisen, actually. But at least you're all trying. :) BTW- Don't count Gore out of the running yet. He might still have a chance to take the Karameikan election. Myself, I think a recount will show that Nader beat all of them- Gore, Bush, Stefan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:21:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <010d01c055b5$561a9c80$1ed0893e@philjones> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:24 AM 11/24/00 -0000, Phillip Jones wrote: > >Can someone actually point me to the section where it says Stefan owned >slaves??? Given his attitudes towards slavery I find it would be an >extremely odd asssumption to make without proof. :) I've been curious about this since you mentioned it, and have been trying to find something myself, to no avail. I could have sworn someone posted a reference (and documented it), though. I think it was James- do you know the reference I'm talking about, James, or am I imagining things? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:39:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Planer Travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:45:12 +0000 Gordon McCormick writes: > Also, one of my players plays in a Planescape campaign, so I > want to keep things quite different from the feel of those > adventures (don't want him getting bored!) - having not played > Planescape, any suggestions for maintaining a different 'feel'? Well, one thought on making it different from Planescape: One of the main things in Planescape is that the Prime Material Plane is unimportant. OTOH, in OD&D/Mystaran cosmology, the Prime Material is seen as the most important plane, as it is the only one where all five Spheres are in perfect balance. I'd suggest finding some way to emphasize it. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:34:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001125182142.00809210@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 01:24 AM 11/24/00 -0000, Phillip Jones > wrote: > > > >Can someone actually point me to the section where it says Stefan owned > >slaves??? Given his attitudes towards slavery I find it would be an > >extremely odd asssumption to make without proof. :) > > I've been curious about this since you mentioned it, and have been trying > to find something myself, to no avail. I could have sworn someone posted a > reference (and documented it), though. I think it was James- do you know > the reference I'm talking about, James, or am I imagining things? > In the DMG's guide of the Alphatia/Thyatis boxed set, the description of Machetos on page 14 says that when Thincol got Machetos he sold off all the slaves. Given Stefan's opposition to slavery, these slaves were probably inherited from his father, rather than acquired by Stefan himself. The question arises of why he didn't free them before selling off the duchy then arises. I'd tend to assume Stefan sold Machetos soon after inheriting it, and Thincol likely insisted on him not freeing the slaves as part of the deal (so Thincol could sell them himself...) That and I'd suspect the empire in general frowns on the emancipation of slaves on the scale necessary. (And frustration from not being able to do this may have contributed to why Stefan decided to trade Machetos away). John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:40:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: "Dead Duck" Adventures (was Re: [MYSTARA] Thyatis Must Fall!) In-Reply-To: <000901c056c7$b701c100$9a01a8c0@rob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Okay first, some personal administrivia: -=-=- To Rich D., Rich W. and Derek A.: Try to ignore this thread will ya? Thanks! Oh yeah -- and don't read any further either. ;-) -=-=- On 25 Nov 2000, at 10:08, Rob wrote: > Why do you say that??? I think there is every need for a Roman Empire in > Known World - it makes good adventure material being the main one. (Unlike, > say, Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area, which are all to lesser > or greater extents dead ducks as far as adventures are concerned. At least, > my adventures :). Rob's comment about "Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area" being "dead ducks" in the adventure area, caught my attention, primarily because I have a desire to introduce the PC's in my upcoming campaign to the Atruaghin Clans. My as yet mostly undeveloped plans are to have them in a shipwreck off the south coast of the Atruaghin region where they will be rescued by a Turtle Clan whaling expedition, quite probably meeting the "unusual" Turtle Clan NPC from the Gazetteer. Once they've "interacted" with the Clans I expect them to move on to Sind and further west (I have CoM). This could be either by sea or land, it doesn't matter. I've had a few thoughts about what to let them stumble into/across while "visiting" the clans -- eg: a run-in with the Viper clan is definitely in the cards. I have plans to introduce "Dream Catchers" as a magical device of the Atruaghin's, and I own a special deck of cards called "Spirit Path Cards" which are similar to Tarot cards in some ways, though they are not the same, and I intend to have them come into play in some manner as well. Other than that, I haven't had any further ideas -- though, admittedly, I also haven't focused on trying to find any because that part of the campaign is further off from what I have been focussing on (namely Minrothad, Darokin, the Shires and Irendi). I just thought I'd toss this message out and see if I couldn't cull some ideas that I can stea... uh, borrow from other innovative list members, to be merged with whatever other ideas I end up having rattling around in my brain. ;-) A few "ground rules" relating to my own campaign for those considering ideas to suggest: 1) My game is set in 1005 AC, but I have /no/ /plans/ to run WotI. I have also "darkened" the flavour of many regions I plan to use already -- especially the Minrothad Guilds (which I've expanded with Lankhmar source material), but also the Shires and Darokin to some degree. Irendi still has a Hawaiian / Polynesian flavour but it's more serious in nature than the Gaz would immediately suggest. 2) Atruaghin is not a "planned stop" for the PC's -- it is an unexpected "detour" on their way to tracking down something/someone else. So, anything that is to befall them while in the region needs to be something that they just can't ignore and continue on their merry way without some noticeable repercussions. 3) I have no plans to let them discover the "world elevator" ... at least not at this point. Later maybe ... if I ever get my hands on the HW boxed set. ;-) 4) The group contains four 25 to 28 year old "real roleplayers" and one 36 year old "munchkin" (my husband). The role players will (obviously) respond well to solid storyline/role developing "hooks". The "munchkin" will be bored out of his skull if there isn't at /least/ one large or two small combat related encounters in a session. Okay guys (and gals) let your ideas flow. I'm interested in hearing anything, even "stupid ideas", because you never know what will trigger a "great idea" ;-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <--------------------------------------------------------> God said: "Let their be Light." Then he created Earth, vegtables, animals, man and woman. Then God thought: "You know, I should create things I *like*!" So God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan's Slaves >> I've been curious about this since you mentioned it, and have been trying to find something myself, to no avail. I could have sworn someone posted a reference (and documented it), though. I think it was James- do you know the reference I'm talking about, James, or am I imagining things? << I'm not sure I quoted that one, though someone might have. Anyhow, the reference I know of is in DotE's DMSB, the description of the Duchy of Machetos, p. 14. The slaves, livestock, wealth, etc in question could have only been Stefan's property, traded to Thincol, because Thincol wouldn't have had the right to sell anyone else's slaves (or at least no greater right than he would with any of the property of any inhabitant of the Empire anywhere - in which case, if Imperial authority was used here, there would have been no need for the trade to begin with. Stefan traded stuff of value to Thincol. Thincol then sold it. That stuff included slaves.) One (lengthy) note on economics, though: actually, if Thincol sold the crops at below cost price, the main person he'd have been hurting is himself (selling them at market price optimizes his return as the seller. Selling them at below-cost price helps the buyer at the expense of the seller - he's the seller; anyone could be the buyer, even local Machetans - in fact, that's more likely because it saves transport cost, and if you're selling below-cost anyhow, transport costs* eat even deeper into your rate of return - the buyer benifits from the below market price. The other people that might be hurt are other sellers, but only momentarily, until the market clears of the below-price commodities being sold by the under-bidding seller; the sales were supposedly "quick", so the market would have cleared relatively swiftly. Ultimate buyers would be people who eat and plant. Thus, the people being depicted as being hurt would have been the ones helped, and Thincol would have only be! ! en hurting himself. Game designers/writers aren't always up on economics, but this is pretty basic stuff. OtoH, perhaps this explains the whole Traladara trade to begin with: in AC 970, Thincol didn't understand the concept of value - having been a barbarian and a gladiator previously, and concentrating on military stuff in the early years of his reign. Thus he made bad trades, which his "dear friend" Stefan was only too happy to encourage him to do. I guess it's a good thing Thincol was a quick learner on some things. Still, got taken advantage of by Stefan, then the commodities markets, then much later "Anya"/Vanya). *Transport costs: and no, using Imperial assets wouldn't eliminate the transport cost. Second note: description of Castle Karameikos "still an example of powerful fortress-building and menacing architecture". Menacing, eh? (said the same way someone might say "Simpson, eh?") Third note: People who like to reach might say "well, those might not have been Stefan's slaves" - or the crops, livestock, and whatnot. But then again, that begs the question of just *what* Stefan would be trading to Thincol? If those were the property of other Thyatians, then Stefan wouldn't be trading them to Thincol. Thincol might sieze such stuff, in theory, from their owners - but he wouldn't need to conduct a trade with Stefan to do so, Stefan wouldn't be giving him anything. What Stefan offered would be the Lord's Demesne - Lord's lands and properties. Anything otherwise, and he (Thincol) may as well just sell the Traladarans and their livestock & crops himself, cuting out the middle man, for just one example, and keep the lands of Traladara and sell those too. And then if Stefan wanted to buy the land for cash on the barrel head, well then - you get the picture. Stefan had to trade something of real value to Thincol - something worth the vast lands & potential of Traladara; the wealth of Machetos (minus "some" properties), slaves are mentioned among these assets which Thincol received and sold. A Thyatian noble has no right to "trade away" the property of a Thyatian citizen other than himself - even the properties of slaves can't simply be confiscated by their owner. So Stefan couldn't have been trading nothing but other people's stuff. Therefore, the slaves in question sold by Thincol had been Stefan's property before the trade. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:26:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes/No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) [Off-list] >>Andrew Thiesen 8-) << >> Theisen, actually. But at least you're all trying. :) << Yah, I know. I saw the transposed e & i when I read my post after it came up on the list, but by that time it was too late. . . Sorry. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:32:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan's Slaves >> Given Stefan's opposition to slavery, these slaves were probably inherited from his father, rather than acquired by Stefan himself. << Possible. >> The question arises of why he didn't free them before selling off the duchy then arises. I'd tend to assume Stefan sold Machetos soon after inheriting it, and Thincol likely insisted on him not freeing the slaves as part of the deal (so Thincol could sell them himself...) << Interesting theory, but Stefan became Duke in AC 968, two years before he proposed the trade to Thincol. So Thincol wouldn't have so insisted at the time (since he wouldn't view them as potential assets of his for two years). >> That and I'd suspect the empire in general frowns on the emancipation of slaves on the scale necessary. << No indication of that anywhere I can see. Emancipation in Thyatis is actually relatively easy, judging by the materiels (far easier than in, say Alphatia, which does seem to frown upon that). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:31:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Duke Stefan's slaves In-Reply-To: <20001126045524.DF9B08116@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > The question arises of why he didn't free them before selling off the > duchy then arises. I'd tend to assume Stefan sold Machetos soon after > inheriting it, and Thincol likely insisted on him not freeing the slaves > as part of the deal (so Thincol could sell them himself...) > > That and I'd suspect the empire in general frowns on the emancipation of > slaves on the scale necessary. (And frustration from not being able to do > this may have contributed to why Stefan decided to trade Machetos away). Putting together a timeline of events, Stefan becomes duke at the age of 20 when his father dies in AC 968. Then in AC 970 Stefan sells his ancestral lands for Traladara. Depending on which month of the year these events happen it could be stretched to a few months short of 3 years almost, but for simplicity sake just call it two years of life as Duke of Machetos before Stefan and the Emperor make the "deal". Some could consider the two years as "just after inheriting it", others might pounce on it as "TWO WHOLE YEARS of slaveholding!"... Eric Anondson (Just bought a motherlode of Gazetteers! Including Gaz 1...) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards Sounds cool: >> Statswise we know that his Int is 18 (from PWAII). Wis is likely average or below average (not worldly). Good Con for/from mountain trekking, though lowered with age? Good Dex for handling artifacts/restoring texts? How old is he? 60? 70? Older? << Why don't we say early 60s (if he's not the longevity-type, we don't want him to be so old he's in danger of kicking the bucket too early). The description we have so far would indicate that he'd be a bad source for recent history stuff (most of the stuff during his lifetime), but really well versed on stuff that happened before then, Traladaran lore, customs (from a theoretical standpoint, though he *would* have some hands-on experience from the time when he was exploring himself). He'd have some people-skills probably (due to the travels in his early years/youth), but atrophied over time (inward-oriented I'd say, rather than brusk/gruff - no need for another "irascable old mage" type, fantasy's too full of that sort already; I'd suggest he's just become an introvert, kind of socially "out of sorts", except when the topic is one of his areas of interest, then the light turns on; perhaps his mannerisms reflect those of 30-40 years ago - he comes across as a "dated old coot" rather than a cantankerous one, but is not without his endearing qualities. I'd suggest possibly a Cha 10-12, but able to inspire loyalty in h! ! is assistant{s} who know him well). Since he *has* traveled, he can handle himself - he's not "combat-oriented" by nature but isn't a push over by any means; forced to fight he'll surprise folks who thought he'd be an easy mark (and employ some of those special/unexpected Traladaran spells he knows; I guess we'll have to come up with examples, I'll say right off that I'm bad at comming up with unique spells on the fly, so I'd invite someone else to design some for him). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:53:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards >> The events that sparked his interest in Traladaran history probably took place during his shearing. Did he stumble across some ancient ruins while on a trek? Was he the only one who dared take work at an old wizard? << I like both of those ideas; I think that would explain how he learned magic and how he got interested in old lore, both. What about secret agendas/goals? These could range from something dubious like being a member of a secret cabal (not likely given how we've described him, but possible) to something innocuous, like wanting to find a long-missing relative (sibling, niece, child), but he's reluctant to talk about it (for whatever reason) - I.E. something more "personal" than tied into his interests in Traladaran lore. Has he ever been married? If so, is his wife still alive? Were there any children? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:56:29 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Stefan's Slaves In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Evil Genius wrote: > >> That and I'd suspect the empire in general frowns on the emancipation of slaves on the scale necessary. << > > No indication of that anywhere I can see. Emancipation in Thyatis is actually relatively easy, judging by the materiels (far easier than in, say Alphatia, which does seem to frown upon that). Virtually all slave societies frown on large scale emancipations, especially on the scale someone as rich as a Duke would be conducting. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 06:33:16 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: "Dead Duck" Adventures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Rob's comment about "Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area" > being "dead ducks" in the adventure area, caught my attention, > primarily because I have a desire to introduce the PC's in my > upcoming campaign to the Atruaghin Clans. > > My as yet mostly undeveloped plans are to have them in a shipwreck > off the south coast of the Atruaghin region where they will be > rescued by a Turtle Clan whaling expedition, quite probably meeting > the "unusual" Turtle Clan NPC from the Gazetteer. > Ooh! Nice!! The Atruaghin Clans is one one of my most favorite lands. Here's some adventure ideas that I've come up with. :) When the characters are shipwrecked, and are rescued by the Children of the Turtle, they discover that their problems have only just started. The family who has headed up the whaling expedition that rescues them claims the PCs as their Noshaki (slaves). The chieftan of the tribe, however, decides to give the PCs a chance to prove themselves more worthy than this and elevate their status to Treshaki (families of honour) by heading up a whaling expedition themselves. The slain whale would then be the main dish in a Patshatl celebration that the characters must hold after the hunt. Offer them an NPC to help them to prepare the celebration properly. For the entertainment in the Patshatl, the characters could enact their family histories for the tribe, to prove that their lineage is worthy to be considered Treshaki (a botched job on the entertainment could result in that character becoming Loshaki (familiy in disgrace), but still avoiding being Noshaki status.). Don't forget that the characters must sacrifice something at the end of the Pashatl (I'm sure you could steer them into destroying one of their magical items :) ). The Pashatl doesn't have to last that long, maybe just a day or two, but it will give the characters chance to participate in several Turtle clan games and sports, just to keep things interesting. :) Once the characters have gained their freedom, they would eventually be anxious to return to "civilization". The tribe offers to give them a couple of guides to take them back to Darokin. They travel by sea for most of the journey, but as they near Port Tenobar, a storm whips up and forces them to make landfall for shelter. However, not long after they make landfall, they are attacked and captured by some Children of the Tiger (they've got Children of the Viper on the map - thats one major typo :) ). The characters soon find themselves with a choice of either being sacrificed or becoming a Daraxi team. It will be more than likely that the characters will choose to become a Daraxi team. They play a couple of matches, and then are faced with another team of captured people. This other team manages to convey to the PCs before the match that they intend to try and escape during the break period, and invite the characters to join in the escape attempt. This isn't generosity on the the other teams part, they believe that they would be able to make good their escape whilst the Tiger warriors deal with the PCs. Unfortunately the reverse is true, and it is the PCs that make good their escape. Hounded by Tiger clan hunting parties, the PCs are driven westward until they eventually enter Sind.... Hope this will be of some help. Phil (aka Alexander Korrigan, humble student of the Great School of Magic) "I'm not evil. Just practical." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:38:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/25/00 11:25 AM, Evil Genius wrote: >At which point a certain someone, newly returned to the list, employed his >usual tactic of getting all offended when people he disagrees with employ >evidence, while simoultaniously endorsing such use of evidence (limited >basically to asserting "it says LG") when done by those he agrees with. Well, seems some of my uses of canon in a discussion have caused some to willfully believe that I'm attempting to say their views are invalid and they should cease holding those views. If that's what they want to believe then, by all means, do so. However, that isn't how I meant any use of canon (or designer intent) and I think it unlikely that my point may have been accidentally misinterpreted. And I do question the purpose of continually posting my true intent for me. As I've said before, I don't think Mystara canon is quite cohesive as it could be and so anyone using it must employ what I'm calling a sledgehammer. To shape it into a usable form no matter what form the user intends. Each person's sledgehammer can be something as simple as an alignment stat or a personal hatred for a region. But then I also think one should read what people are actually posting instead of using 1-800-Psychic Friend to read minds. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:30:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: "Dead Duck" Adventures In-Reply-To: <3A2023D8.11540.5308AD5@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/25/00 10:40 PM, Jenni A.M. Merrifield wrote: > Okay first, some personal administrivia: > My as yet mostly undeveloped plans are to have them in a shipwreck >off the south coast of the Atruaghin region where they will be >rescued by a Turtle Clan whaling expedition, quite probably meeting >the "unusual" Turtle Clan NPC from the Gazetteer. I really don't know that much about the Atruaghins but what about having the medicine man of the tribe (or whatever they call him) having prophesied about the coming of five strangers to retrieve you Dream Catchers. I'm mixing up all kind of things here and have to idea if it fits. Perhaps they need to find them in the spirit world, land of the dead type of place. Maybe they have to aid the Turtle Clan ancestors against the ancestors of the Viper Clan. That's what first popped into my head but no idea of how to get the players involved. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:02:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:24 PM 11/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >On 11/21/00 6:38 PM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: > > > Canon gives the results of his actions (or inaction) without ascribing > intent > > to them. It's expected that you interpolate his intent with his alignment: > > Lawful Neutral. Jenn and Evil Genius are not doing this. That's their > choice > > in their campaigns, of course, but the statements being made imply that > only > > this view of the materials is reasonable and correct. I heartily > disagree. I > > think it is /not/ incompatible to keep both his alignment and the events as > > listed in canon materials. > >My statements were never intended to "imply that only this view of the >materials is reasonable and correct." My entire point was that there are >different interpretations of the material (one of which is my own, of >course), which are equally legitimate, BUT that these views are legitimized >because of people's belief in them, through their presentation of what they >believe is evidence of such, I don't think simple belief that something is true makes something true. I also think truth is something that is hard to discover, and that facts are not the same thing as truth. Regardless, what makes one's views supportable ("legitimate" seems somehow not the right word) is the presentation of evidence. No argument there. >NOT "because it said so, and so no other view >is 'right.'" Therefore, I'm not the one claiming that only one view is >"reasonable and correct." You want Stefan to be LG? Show me where he acts >LG, and I'll have no proble. with it. That's fair. Still, the ultimate problem here is that it is possible that the same actions can be taken by people of different alignments, but for different reasons. It's the reasons for those actions that makes someone good / neutral / evil, and we really end up begging the question when we say, "Such and such action is done because he is ." Upon reflection, I have been guilty of this as well, though I hadn't stepped back from it far enough until now to see it. Allow me elucidate. We each point to actions as a pattern of behaviour that is consistent with our, shall we say, preferred alignment. Then someone else says those actions can be done by someone of another alignment. We each say our own argument is better. Ultimately I end up pointing at the listed alignment and I'm told that's not good enough. Example 1: * James has listed many examples of things that could be done by LN, LE, etc. alignments. One favourite is the betrayal of Thyatis by breaking the treaty of mutual defense. I can turn around and say that a LG person can reasonably do those things, too. Then the argument derails to the intent. I say his intent was in the common good since his other option, which was to answer the call to arms, would leave his country with the Black Baron as the only military power in the country, it would make Karameikos an easy target to the Master (et al), and would suddenly make his tiny country a target of the greatest magical superpower on Mystara. James turns around and says that no LG person could make an act of betrayal, and besides, he really benefitted big-time in the end, so it was all a selfish ruse anyway, Q.E.D. You (Jenn) say James makes the better argument, but did he really? Did I? Didn't we both just really beg the question? So, my statement about burden of proof being upon the person making the more unlikely claim comes back; I point out he's listed as LG and the evidence to date is insufficient to say we should change it. Your premise is that we should remove the so-called "straightjacket" of the listed alignment, and then you declare that some side other than LG makes the best argument -- which I still happen to disagree with. Example 2: I've pointed to Stefan's building of roads and communities as being in the common good and benefitting Traladarans, which are things a LG ruler would do. Solmyr (I think) says that Hitler did those things, too, so that's not good enough evidence. That discussion broke down with me pointing out all the evil that Hitler did and saying ergo Hitler did all those things with evil intent. Solmyr comes back and then says that such actions are of neutral moral value, and that the taxes that paid for the infrastructure really were a bad thing for the Traladarans. And, I say that because the Traladarans benefitted it was not a bad thing. Then we started arguing about whether the Traladarans /really/ benefitted. I guess that discussion is headed in the direction of nowhere's-ville if we can't get some common ground to base our discussion upon. There's still some hope for that discussion, because we might still find that common ground, but the whole thing is getting just a wee bit tiresome. The ultimate upshot of my platform there is that by acting in the common good, Stefan is good. I tried to demonstrate that and had my premises attacked. But, is Solmyr's negative argument against my argument better, IYO? Does it show more proof (yet)? In the end, aren't we /still/ both kind of begging the question? So, now, before I try to convince you that Stefan is LG with his actions, why don't we set some ground rules for what constitutes proof one way or the other? That way neither of us will be disappointed and this won't get out of hand again the way it has recently. -Auld Skald P.S. - I'm a bit behind on the threads I was posting to, as I've taken a break from them. I'm still willing to carry on the discussion, but I thought this breather would be good for all of us to take a step back and decide what the point is of our discussion. I do hope the points I bring up, above, help us to move it forward in a more constructive manner. With luck, I shall start replying tomorrow (Sunday) to the threads I was posting to earlier, and spirits will have improved. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:39:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Detect / Feign (was: "Bargle Death") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > Fighters jokes usually spill blood. > Careful with that blade. Oooooouch! ;-) Oh my! Sorry...I didn't mean it! 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:28:56 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > > It's a very nice idea this of yours: the compromise stuff. You say "one > year". Is that inside info? No, pure guess... based on the current schedule for Forgoten Realms and Dark Sun. The only official info is that Mystara will be the last world released. > Agathokles wrote: > > It essentially depends on how much you're willing to pay or wait: if > > you'd rather pay than wait, auctions are what you need. Otherwise, > > you'll have to wait for WotC to release all of the old 2e and OD&D > > material online (it will take one year, more or less). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 07:54:49 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "G.P. Agosta" > > Well, actually, the (elected) senators are elected by the local people > of a certain region, so it only needs 50%+1 people of a given electoral > zone to be evil to elect an evil senator. In order for the senate to > keep an evil policy, it is enough to have 50%+1 evil senators. > > So, it is enough to have slightly more than 25% of the population being > evil to support evil policies, provided that they are well distributed :) > > Raising the proportion to 30% evil makes thing more realistic, if one > considers that neutral people are as likely to vote for a good candidate > as for an evil one. If we have 50% neutrals, at least some of them will > vote for the evil candidates, raising the support for those candidates > to, say, 40%. Which more than enough to control the senate. > > And we have not considered evil senators buying votes and performing all > the other usual cheatings which are well known from the Classical Age in > the RW, and which good candidates won't obviously try. Three more points: 1) An evil senator who is clever enough can convince even his good aligned constituents that he is good at heart but is constrained to do certain unpleasant things by political necessity, even if the unpleasant things are in fact the things that he really wants to do. 2) Good people could vote for the "lesser of two evils" if only evil candidates are running. Alternatively, they could refrain from voting -- but that would ensure that the worse of the two candidates is elected by the evil people who might then decide the election. 3) It is much easier to refrain from introducing new forms of evil than to abolish those forms of evil (such as slavery) that have become a traditional part of society. One need only read Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" to see how Abolitionists were viewed in pre-Civil War America. For most of that era, the best that those who opposed slavery could hope to accomplish was to limit its spread. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:08:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: >> The events that sparked his interest in Traladaran history probably = took place during his shearing. Did he stumble across some ancient ruins = while on a trek? Was he the only one who dared take work at an old = wizard? << A little more detail on this. During his shearing, Igor came across an = ancient Traldar artifact, which he brought with him to a nearby village. = None of the villagers were able to identify, but they revealed (perhaps = accidentally) that the wizard living outside the village might know. = Igor showed up at the wizard's dwelling. The wizard was very surprised = that someone had sought him out, but couldn't help Igor. Instead he = encouraged Igor to search for answers himself, and hinted that he might = be able to help if Igor took care of some of practical matters at the = dwelling. Thus Igor became an apprentice wizard. He returned to the site = where he discovered the original artifact and managed to find more = artifacts as well as clues to additional sites. During his early years he trekked across the country, searching for = tomes and artifacts, in between studying at the wizard. In the course of = these treks (did he travel alone or in a party?), he learned how to = handle bandits and humanoid threats using subterfuge, but also = occasionally an offensive spell. When his tutor died he took over the = dwelling, and used it as a base for his further adventures. So how did he gain 27 levels? First of all he's obviously obtained a = large amount of XP just from researching spells and building/restoring = magical items. Second he probably gets XP from unearthing tomes and = artifacts, the same way PCs get XP from treasure and magical items. Also = he's had a fair number of encounters with hostiles (bandits, grave = looters, humanoids, ancient guardians, etc.). As for his original family... I'd suggest he comes from a large family, = and that he has/had a number of siblings. This way he wouldn't have to = be missed much by his immediate family, since it is so large. Also he'd = have a personal reason to stick to his wizard tutor, since he might have = felt more appreciated there. This could be something he has outgrown, or = perhaps he still feels the need to please somebody. I've been thinking about his view on religion. Could he have ties to the = Church of Traladara or the Cult of Halav? They'd be useful for info on = ancient Traladaran sites, but perhaps he has taken on some of their = ideas. He might actually be searching for King Halav, believing him to = be entombed somewhere in Karameikos, or for some trigger that will allow = Halav to be reincarnated. Not necessarily for personal reasons, he might = just be curious. Evil Genius wrote: >> What about secret agendas/goals? These could range from something = dubious like being a member of a secret cabal (not likely given how = we've described him, but possible) to something innocuous, like wanting = to find a long-missing relative (sibling, niece, child), but he's = reluctant to talk about it (for whatever reason) - I.E. something more = "personal" than tied into his interests in Traladaran lore.<< Perhaps he married somebody from his adventuring days, who had = political/religious aspirations, and went on to become mayor/high = priest, and they separated. They love each other, but every time they = meet, they get frustrated, since she feels strongly about current = issues, whereas he ignores them or turns the subject to ancient = history/lore. She really wants to convince him to get involved, and he = promises to think about it, once he's done restoring this latest text he = found cheap at the market (obviously somebody found it, and didn't know = what it was, and he got it cheap). So, she gets upset that he's more = interested in musty old tomes than in her personal problems, and they = break apart again. Their son/daughter might be caught between them (I'll stick to daughter = for clarity's sake). She grew up with her mother, since Igor was always = busy somewhere else, but she did get to go on a few excavation trips. = Eventually Igor's wife decided that their daughter (or her child) might = be able to convince Igor to come around if she became his personal = assistant, but so far she has been happy just staying with Igor, and = doesn't know how to breach the subject/is afraid to estrange him the way = his wife did. Those weren't exactly secret agendas. I'll give it some more thought, or = perhaps somebody can expand on this this. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:12:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: Story of Traldar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, for my campaign I need information about the story of Traldar in the period between the Halav Kingdom's and Thyatyan invasion (1000 BI - 900 AI). thank you to all Renato ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:36:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evil Genius wrote: >> Statswise we know that his Int is 18 (from PWAII). Wis is likely = average or below average (not worldly). Good Con for/from mountain = trekking, though lowered with age? Good Dex for handling = artifacts/restoring texts? How old is he? 60? 70? Older? << >=20 > Why don't we say early 60s (if he's not the longevity-type, we don't = want him to be so old he's in danger of kicking the bucket too early). Agreed, so he was born in, say, AC949. Assigning stats (feel free to = disagree): Str 6, Int 18, Wis 7, Dex 14, Con 15, Cha 11. Also, in = absolute agreement that he shouldn't be another "irascable old mage". > Since he *has* traveled, he can handle himself - he's not = "combat-oriented" by nature but isn't a push over by any means; forced = to fight he'll surprise folks who thought he'd be an easy mark (and = employ some of those special/unexpected Traladaran spells he knows; I = guess we'll have to come up with examples, I'll say right off that I'm = bad at comming up with unique spells on the fly, so I'd invite someone = else to design some for him). Here are some spell suggestions (OD&D format); they might not be = balanced/unique, but they're just suggestions. Liquid Bronze Level: 2 Range: Touch Duration: 1 round per level of the caster Effect: 1 bronze weapon Upon casting this spell, the blade of an edged weapon made of bronze is = turned into a boiling bronze liquid. It will still keep it's shape, and = can be used in combat. Due to it's liquid nature the weapon gains +2 to = hit, and it will inflict an additional 1d6 points of heat damage when = scoring a hit. The blade can also be used to cut through stone. When the = spell ends the blade melts away. This spell has no effect if used on a = weapon made of anything but bronze. A variant of this spell could be = used in the enchantments for making Bronze Golems. Grasp of Stone Level: 4 Range: 60' Duration: Permanent Effect: Immobilizes 1 creature When this spell is cast minor tremors start as stone from the bed-rock = digs it's way to the surface. One round later the stone will appear = below a target creature and grasp it, imprisoning 1' of it within solid = rock. If cast on a creature standing directly upon rock, there will be = no 1-round delay. The spell has no effect if the target is not standing = on the ground. The target is allowed a ST vs. spells (with a -1 penalty) = to avoid being grasped unless it is already immobilized. If the target = has moved more than 10' in any direction when the stone appears, the = spell also fails. A creature that is grasped by the stone will be immobilized, unless it = is of sufficient strength to break stone. Should the creature's airways = be trapped within the stone, it will suffocate unless freed. Though the = creature will be caught indefinitely, there are many magical ways to = free it, such as with Dissolve, Stone to Flesh, Dimension Door, = Polymorph, etc. Here's a sample magical item, as well: Mask of Visions This mask of bronze is designed to cover the entire face. When donned it = fuses to the user's face. The user loses all normal vision, but gains = the following benefits: Infravision to 60' (only works in darkness). See Invisible to 60'. See Illusions within 60'. The mask cannot be removed until it has been worn for a full turn. Jacob Skytte scyth@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:38:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > I don't think simple belief that something is true makes something true. I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > also think truth is something that is hard to discover, and that facts are > not the same thing as truth. > Well, you also seem to be convinced that if Stefan believes something to be good, then it is good :) > Example 1: > * James has listed many examples of things that could be done by LN, LE, > etc. alignments. One favourite is the betrayal of Thyatis by breaking the > treaty of mutual defense. I can turn around and say that a LG person can > reasonably do those things, too. Then the argument derails to the > intent. I say his intent was in the common good since his other option, > which was to answer the call to arms, would leave his country with the > Black Baron as the only military power in the country, it would make But remember, you maintain that Stefan is ignorant in this regard. Why couldn't he just ask "dear cousin Ludwig" to defend Karameikos while his own armies march to help Thyatis? > Example 2: > I've pointed to Stefan's building of roads and communities as being in the > common good and benefitting Traladarans, which are things a LG ruler would > do. Solmyr (I think) says that Hitler did those things, too, so that's not > good enough evidence. That discussion broke down with me pointing out all > the evil that Hitler did and saying ergo Hitler did all those things with > evil intent. Solmyr comes back and then says that such actions are of > neutral moral value, and that the taxes that paid for the infrastructure > really were a bad thing for the Traladarans. And, I say that because the > Traladarans benefitted it was not a bad thing. Then we started arguing > about whether the Traladarans /really/ benefitted. I guess that discussion > Well, my position remains that the average Traladaran peasant saw little benefit from more roads and cities (not that there weren't any before Stefan came along). About the only people I see benefitting from roads and large communities would be merchants (trade is the thing that required building those in the first place). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:46:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacob Skytte wrote: > He insists on calling Specularum/Mirros Marilenev, which causes no small amount of confusion. > This reminds me of something I found strange. Specularum's original name was Marilenev. Yet when Stefan renames it, he calls it by its "original name" Mirros. Stefan's mistake, or deliberate muddling of past history? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law >> Well, seems some of my uses of canon in a discussion have caused some to willfully believe that I'm attempting to say their views are invalid and they should cease holding those views. << Well, when you post in one message that you deplore people using "canon" to try and supress others and then in a mail immediately afterwords you post a "concuring opinion" with someone based on just that ("canon says he's LG") and say, in effect, "case closed", then it's pretty clear what you're doing. >> And I do question the purpose of continually posting my true intent for me. << You alow yourself the freedom to do just that, though; your "I deplore people doing this" post certainly ascribed such bad intent to people. So. . .again, I have to wonder if you're a hippocrite: you're fully free to employ the same things you decry in others in your mind (you and those you agree with can use "canon" to prove a point, but others can't; you can post that others are intending to silence contrary positions, but others can't). >> Each person's sledgehammer can be something as simple as an alignment stat or a personal hatred for a region. << You endoursed the use of the "alignment stat" feature because you agreed with it, but actively oppose the reasons others have (as well as having no trouble ascribing bad motives to them, see below). >> But then I also think one should read what people are actually posting instead of using 1-800-Psychic Friend to read minds. << What you mean here, it seems, is that you think *others* should do that, but that you're free to use Psychic Friends to divine unstated reasons (I don't remember anyone in this discussion saying they hated a certain region - well, with the possible exception of yourself, who said, in effect, just that about Thyatis. But I don't think you were talking about yourself when you said "a personal hatred for a region"). So, again, what we have is a double standard: you feel free to whip those you disagree with into not using "canon" to support their positions, while doing so and endoursing those who agree with you doing the same. You feel it ok to divine the motives of others yourself, but deplore that when done by anyone else. This is an observation of what you're doing. I don't have to read your mind to see what you're doing. If you don't like what you see, then don't do it. But let me make one thing clear for all time: I'm not going to let you or anyone else deny to me an option that you reserves for yourself. If you want to endourse someone when they say "LG", for example, and use "canon" as your grounds for doing so, then more power to you. But you're not going to simoultaniously deny the same option to employ "canon" in argumentation to those who disagree with you. The fact that you posted your remarks about people using "canon" in such a way and then in the very next mail did essentially just that yourself speaks for itself. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:17:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:28:56 +0000 Agathokles writes: > "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > > > > It's a very nice idea this of yours: the compromise stuff. You say > "one > > year". Is that inside info? > > No, pure guess... based on the current schedule for Forgoten Realms > and > Dark Sun. The only official info is that Mystara will be the last > world > released. Although, apparently the OD&D stuff is being handled seperatly from the AD&D stuff. I believe it was said that Dragonlance is next, followed by Dungeons and Dragons. I don't recall any indication of whether this meant "generic" AD&D products or OD&D. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:38:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards >> A little more detail on this. During his shearing, Igor came across an ancient Traldar artifact, which he brought with him to a nearby village. << That sounds very good. >> In the course of these treks (did he travel alone or in a party?) << Lets say party. Perhaps he travelled with a party, but a really bad experience that resulted in the death of many (all?) of his friends soured him on adventuring himself (does he, mistakenly, blame himself for their deaths?) Or perhaps some/all live(d), but the party grew apart, some have subsiquently died and he's lost touch with others (this leaves open the possibility that one of these dudes/dudessas might show up, old as well, with "one more mission" or something along those lines). >> As for his original family... I'd suggest he comes from a large family, and that he has/had a number of siblings. This way he wouldn't have to be missed much by his immediate family, since it is so large. << That seems good - it runs against my personal initial inclination, which is one reason I like it. 8-) Having a big family "out there" can lead to potential adventure hooks (or even "mistaken identity" - does one of his relatives look like him? I'm not saying some "he has an evil twin" type of thing, but a look-alike brother might get mistakenly kidnapped by people who thought they were bagging him, for example, and that could lead to an adventure.) >> Also he'd have a personal reason to stick to his wizard tutor, since he might have felt more appreciated there. This could be something he has outgrown, or perhaps he still feels the need to please somebody. << Sounds good; his mentor/tutor is probably dead by now though, right? >> I've been thinking about his view on religion. Could he have ties to the Church of Traladara or the Cult of Halav? They'd be useful for info on ancient Traladaran sites, but perhaps he has taken on some of their ideas. He might actually be searching for King Halav, believing him to be entombed somewhere in Karameikos, or for some trigger that will allow Halav to be reincarnated. Not necessarily for personal reasons, he might just be curious. << Hmmmn. . .interesting. I'd probably have gone with he's not overly religious, but sticks with the traditionalist CoT when it does come to religion, but when you mentioned the CoH that brings a nice twist in, and if he has ties to them that could lead to some interesting aspects (like the search for Halavthat you alluded to - do we know where Halav's Tomb is? If not, perhaps he's been sending adventurers to try and find it for decades - that could lead to a very interesting series of adventures). >> Perhaps he married somebody from his adventuring days, who had political/religious aspirations, and went on to become mayor/high priest, and they separated. They love each other, but every time they meet, they get frustrated, since she feels strongly about current issues, whereas he ignores them or turns the subject to ancient history/lore. << Interesting possibilities there, too. Any specific town/village/region where you think she'd have her influence? Ties to any specific faction? >> Their son/daughter might be caught between them (I'll stick to daughter for clarity's sake). << Also sounds cool. 8-) >> Those weren't exactly secret agendas. I'll give it some more thought, or perhaps somebody can expand on this this. << No, those were cool. One "secret agenda" might be tied into a Search for Halav's Tomb kind of thing, though. I.E. "what does he plan to do when/if it is found?" Plus, he might miss the political implications (he doesn't care about that stuff), but *others* wouldn't - folks might have heard of his search, factions who do have ulterior motives and plan on using "the find" for some certain purpose (perhaps one of his assistants is a member of some faction; they plan a mystical ceremony when the tomb is found, for XX reason - bring Halav back, "prove" Stefan is Halav, "liberate" Traladara, etc. Indeed, there could be groups with all these agendas, all with "ears" and "watchers" waiting until dude finds the Tomb, then planning on using it for their purposes. In the end, he might have to step in and take a stand for or against one or all these groups - and he might bring in the same characters {the PCs} who helped find the tomb for him to support whatever decision/action he decides on. They could also try to incline him one way or the other with persuasion that X course is right or Y group must be stopped). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:46:35 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A212E85.E417F846@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm working backward through the posts that apply, and perhaps that will make some responses to earlier posts unnecessary. I apologise in advance if that does not turn out to be the case. :) At 05:38 PM 11/26/00 +0200, you wrote: >Derek Adam wrote: > > > > I don't think simple belief that something is true makes something true. I > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > also think truth is something that is hard to discover, and that facts are > > not the same thing as truth. > > >Well, you also seem to be convinced that if Stefan believes something to >be good, then it is good :) Actually, no, I'm not that if Stefan believes something to be good, it is. I am glad, though, that you see that assertion would be false. I do, however, think that a person who attempts to do good and is convinced that they /are/ doing good for what we (hopefully) can agree are a rational reasons, then that person really is a good person (for purposes of our alignment discussion). To clarify, yes, IMO Stefan does think he is doing good, and he has some basis for thinking that, which he probably would think is an objective basis. It seems we are still disagreeing about whether that basis is reasonable. > > Example 1: > > * James has listed many examples of things that could be done by LN, LE, > > etc. alignments. One favourite is the betrayal of Thyatis by breaking the > > treaty of mutual defense. I can turn around and say that a LG person can > > reasonably do those things, too. Then the argument derails to the > > intent. I say his intent was in the common good since his other option, > > which was to answer the call to arms, would leave his country with the > > Black Baron as the only military power in the country, it would make > >But remember, you maintain that Stefan is ignorant in this regard. Why >couldn't he just ask "dear cousin Ludwig" to defend Karameikos while his >own armies march to help Thyatis? If you had read every post I had made, you would have seen I retracted this view upon closer examination of the Gazetteer. I can *totally* understand why you might have missed that post, though. We can't all read every single one. Stefan clearly does know there are bad things afoot in the Black Eagle barony. I remember reading in the Gaz (though, now I can't remember where, exactly) that Luln is poised between the armies of the Baron and the Duke. In the description of armies, it says that basically the entire 5th Division (Western Forts) is really there to protect the communities near the Black Eagle barony. The Riverfork Guard Battalion is also ostensibly there to protect Karameikos from Darokin, but one can assume its main duties end up being otherwise. In the Communities section, it says that each family in the BEB must leave a hostage who will be killed if anyone in the family escapes. Presumably, the Duke is aware of this, since Yolanda of Luln has sung for him. The idea that perhaps 20% of the population (assuming a nuclear family of about 5, say), all innocents, could be slain if he takes too overt an action against the Baron, would certainly give a good person pause. > > Example 2: > > I've pointed to Stefan's building of roads and communities as being in the > > common good and benefitting Traladarans, which are things a LG ruler would > > do. Solmyr (I think) says that Hitler did those things, too, so that's not > > good enough evidence. That discussion broke down with me pointing out all > > the evil that Hitler did and saying ergo Hitler did all those things with > > evil intent. Solmyr comes back and then says that such actions are of > > neutral moral value, and that the taxes that paid for the infrastructure > > really were a bad thing for the Traladarans. And, I say that because the > > Traladarans benefitted it was not a bad thing. Then we started arguing > > about whether the Traladarans /really/ benefitted. I guess that discussion > > >Well, my position remains that the average Traladaran peasant saw little >benefit from more roads and cities (not that there weren't any before >Stefan came along). About the only people I see benefitting from roads >and large communities would be merchants (trade is the thing that >required building those in the first place). Actually, we still disagree about the makeup of the population of Kelvin, which could give my argument some teeth. The more Traladarans that live there, the more Traladarans there are apparently agree it's beneficial to be there. You see, the Traladarans that moved into Kelvin must have seen some benefit to it, or they wouldn't have moved there from wherever they were living before. If you think about it some more, I hope you will that there are some benefits to the Traladarans, not just to merchants in general. For example, goods usually sell at a higher price in farmers' markets than directly from farmers' fields; moreover, goods sell at a higher price in cities than in farmers' markets. By that, we can see that Traladarans would get more value from their efforts and there is an overall benefit to the freemen/peasants. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:18:07 +1100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: Shawn, Stalker (and the dumb question). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> No, pure guess... based on the current schedule for Forgoten Realms >> and >> Dark Sun. The only official info is that Mystara will be the last >> world >> released. > >Although, apparently the OD&D stuff is being handled seperatly from the >AD&D stuff. I believe it was said that Dragonlance is next, followed by >Dungeons and Dragons. I don't recall any indication of whether this >meant "generic" AD&D products or OD&D. from what I can gather from Jim Butler it's Dungeons and Dragons as opposed to Advanced Dungeons and Dragons products that are being prepared shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:59:08 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Story of Traldar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hador wrote: > > Hi, > for my campaign I need information about the story of Traldar in the period > between the Halav Kingdom's and Thyatyan invasion (1000 BI - 900 AI). This is the timeline I use. It is mostly canonic, AFAIK, but there may be some non-canonic assumptions. 1000 BC Gnoll Invasion Halav is King of Lavv, and Petra is Queen of Krakatos King Milen (a minor King in what will become Marilenev) flees through the sea. His people found the Milenian Empire in the following centuries. 500 BC By this time, the Traldar culture has transformed to the Traladaran one. 0 AC Highforge is founded, and the Callarii arrive in Traladara Lycanthropic Plague (400-450) 400 AC Marilenev expands its activities, the Church of Traladara is founded. Lycanthropy is created (or there is a plague of Lycanthropy, depending on your campaign) 450 AC Religious unrest. Differences among the Traladaran clergy and the noble families forces some clans to leave Traladara. The Zvornik and Hojah families lead the exiles to the Gulf of Hule, were they found a number of City-States. The Lycanthropic plague reaches an end in the Sea of Dread region. 574 AC The City-State of Salonikos, up to now a traladaran Principality, is conquered by Darokin, with the help of Ylarian Sheiks. Vampiric Plague (600-800) (during this time are born most of the Traladaran Nosferatu, including Miroslav Gorevitch-Stekel and Zemiros Sulescu) 700 AC Birth of Morphail Gorevich-Woszlany. 720 AC Morphail Gorevich-Woszlany becomes a Nosferatu, and starts a campaign of conquest against the neighbouring domains (IMC, this leads to the destruction of the baronies of Volaga and Ivorga; I borrowed most of this event from a timeline somewhere on the web). 725 AC Fall of Rymskigrad. Morphail flees north to Glantri. (by this time, northeastern Traladara is totally depopulated; the Traladarans never resettle the land, still fearing the vampiric curse). 800 AC Koriszegy attempts to ally with dark powers, fails, and is cursed. (this events lead to the destruction of other Traladaran domains, IMC) 900 AC Thyatian invasion. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:10:42 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: An idea for Emerond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This afternoon I was reading the DS supplement on psionic artifacts (one of those freely available)), and it striked me that "life-shaping" might be used for the Emerondians (for those who don't know, life shaping is a sort of non-psionic, non-magical form of manipulation of life-forms, a sort of fantasy biotechnology). Has anyone else tried it (or thought to)? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:58:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: An idea for Emerond Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've thought of using some of those items as Herathian creations - they seem to be Mystara's bioengineers >From: Agathokles >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: [MYSTARA] An idea for Emerond >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:10:42 +0000 > >This afternoon I was reading the DS supplement on psionic artifacts (one >of those freely available)), and it striked me that "life-shaping" might >be used for the Emerondians (for those who don't know, life shaping is a >sort of non-psionic, non-magical form of manipulation of life-forms, a >sort of fantasy biotechnology). >Has anyone else tried it (or thought to)? >-- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > >agathokles@libero.it >agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it >http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:15:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: An idea for Emerond >> This afternoon I was reading the DS supplement on psionic artifacts (oneof those freely available)), and it striked me that "life-shaping" might be used for the Emerondians (for those who don't know, life shaping is a sort of non-psionic, non-magical form of manipulation of life-forms, a sort of fantasy biotechnology). Has anyone else tried it (or thought to)? << I've also thought that it would work well for Emerond, since several of the things sound similar to what Emerond is described as having/using (I don't see that similarity in Herath that someone else mentioned, but to each their own). IMO, life-shaping seems perfectly suited to Emerond. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:32:11 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Done. You can find it at http://images.starflung.com/img/dnd/sc_monst.pdf > there must be an immortal of the sphere of time working against me. i've benn working on this on and off over the last three years, and things keep going wrong. i have moved three times had a job change,had a baby with my then fiance, gotten married, and at the start when i lived in a flat, my flat mate lost it by attaching it to an email he sent to canada,i couldn't get it back from there and had to start from scratch. then when i finally get it all compiled in word and about to convert it to pdf someone beats me to it. damnable immortals always interfering with the plans of us glantrian mages :) mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:18:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evil Genius wrote: >> Lets say party. Perhaps he travelled with a party, but a really bad = experience that resulted in the death of many (all?) of his friends = soured him on adventuring himself (does he, mistakenly, blame himself = for their deaths?) Or perhaps some/all live(d), but the party grew = apart, some have subsiquently died and he's lost touch with others (this = leaves open the possibility that one of these dudes/dudessas might show = up, old as well, with "one more mission" or something along those = lines).<< Already loving it. Perhaps the 'fatal' site, where half the party was = wiped out, remains unexplored. Igor has been avoiding it (perhaps not = deliberately), but he has all along been evaluating adventuring parties = to find one capable of exploring that site. It might even be the fabled = tomb of Halav. >> Sounds good; his mentor/tutor is probably dead by now though, = right?<< Yes, I put that a few lines later. When I wrote it, I was thinking it = would explain why he didn't return to the family clan after a few years = of being sheared; he felt more needed by the wizard than by his family. = Of course he could have been an orphan. But orphaned wizards seem = so...typical. >> Hmmmn. . .interesting. I'd probably have gone with he's not overly = religious, but sticks with the traditionalist CoT when it does come to = religion, but when you mentioned the CoH that brings a nice twist in, = and if he has ties to them that could lead to some interesting aspects = (like the search for Halavthat you alluded to - do we know where Halav's = Tomb is? If not, perhaps he's been sending adventurers to try and find = it for decades - that could lead to a very interesting series of = adventures).<< The legend states that they returned to Lavv (Kelvin) where Halav was = ritually burned. The Cult of Halav, though, believes that he was = 'returned to life, healed, and placed in the deepest sleep'. It is = reasonable to assume that Halav's ashes or body would then be interred = secretly somewhere. As for his wife: >> Interesting possibilities there, too. Any specific = town/village/region where you think she'd have her influence? Ties to = any specific faction?<< No, I was deliberately being unclear since I didn't have any = exciting/intriguing ideas about that. If we're going to put a lot of = strain on them, his wife should, of course, be a member of the Order of = the Griffon (thus being militaristic, and caught up in a lot of = political quests). :) >> One "secret agenda" might be tied into a Search for Halav's Tomb kind = of thing, though. I.E. "what does he plan to do when/if it is found?"<< He's fascinated with the idea of interviewing Halav. :) Seriously, he = might actually be fascinated with the idea that he could reincarnate = King Halav and learn from him. And certainly most everybody else in = Karameikos have reasons of their own, why the tomb should/shouldn't be = found, as you summarized. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:20:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Ierendi and Freeport? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone picked up the "Death in Freeport" D20 module? How well could it work with Ierendi or Minrothad? I like the idea of a swashbuckling city, and that would be my preference on how to serious-up Ierendi, but since my games aren't set there yet, I'm not in a hurry to spend yet more RPG money (just bought the Star Wars D20 game) on something that won't fit my purposes. So, anyone picked it up? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:58:15 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hmmmn. . .interesting. I'd probably have gone with he's not overly religious, but sticks with the traditionalist CoT when it does come to religion, but when you mentioned the CoH that brings a nice twist in, and if he has ties to them that could lead to some interesting aspects (like the search for Halavthat you alluded to - do we know where Halav's Tomb is? If not, perhaps he's been sending adventurers to try and find it for decades - that could lead to a very interesting series of adventures). > > No, those were cool. One "secret agenda" might be tied into a Search for Halav's Tomb kind of thing, though. I.E. "what does he plan to do when/if it is found?" > Plus, he might miss the political implications (he doesn't care about that stuff), but *others* wouldn't - folks might have heard of his search, factions who do have ulterior motives and plan on using "the find" for some certain purpose (perhaps one of his assistants is a member of some faction; they plan a mystical ceremony when the tomb is found, for XX reason - bring Halav back, "prove" Stefan is Halav, "liberate" Traladara, etc. Indeed, there could be groups with all these agendas, all with "ears" and "watchers" waiting until dude finds the Tomb, then planning on using it for their purposes. In the end, he might have to step in and take a stand for or against one or all these groups - and he might bring in the same characters {the PCs} who helped find the tomb for him to support whatever decision/action he decides on. They could also try to incline him one way or the other with persuasion that X course is right or Y group must be stopped). > if i'm not very much mistaken wasn't there an adventure hook in gaz1 that had something along these lines. i think it said halavs tomb was beneath keilvin. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:24:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Thyatians: all evil In-Reply-To: <20001125115703.1097.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/25/00 05:57 AM, Herve Musseau wrote: >The emperor and the senate decided to conquer and colonize the >Hinterlands, and >they can't ignore that they are forcing their culture onto a people who didn't >ask for it, and they are killing many in the process. So by some people's >reasoning, they are evil. And since in Thyatis the senators are elected by the >citizens, then all citizens are evil too, because they gave those senators >power and if they cared for the poor Hinterlanders they would remove the >current senators from power and elect good ones instead. Thus, all Thyatians >are evil. This is dangerous ground for me since I really don't care for Thyatis' current state. But I think most civilized states feel a need (or more probable, a mandate) to offer civilization to everyone they encounter. And since most civilizations can't understand how another's way of life could possibly be just as good or better than theirs (thus making them the uncivilized) this does happen through force most of the time. The common people may really believe they are doing good bringing the Hinterlands their civilization. But, just so you don't think I'm trying to shut you up as I've been accused of, its just as likely the emperor and senate have nothing but what assets they may gain from the Hinterlands in mind and are evil by allowing the killing to continue. And we don't know if the people of Thyatis knew what was happening and why, they would disagree. I'm sure the common man isn't kept completely informed. Either way, I'm sure the natives consider Thyatians evil regardless. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:32:51 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Story of Traldar In-Reply-To: <000501c057b3$01e94080$c3481497@pc1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 08:12 AM, hador wrote: >Hi, >for my campaign I need information about the story of Traldar in the period >between the Halav Kingdom's and Thyatyan invasion (1000 BI - 900 AI). I didn't find much that wasn't in the timeline but I did find a reference to three petty lords who took the title of king after Halav that weren't in the timeline: Ythron, Ivanovich, and Demara. I've no idea exactly when they ruled, for how long, or where there might be more information on that era. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:15:00 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001126094901.01efa5c0@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 12:46 PM, Derek Adam wrote: >If you think about it some more, I hope you will that there are some >benefits to the Traladarans, not just to merchants in general. For >example, goods usually sell at a higher price in farmers' markets than >directly from farmers' fields; moreover, goods sell at a higher price in >cities than in farmers' markets. By that, we can see that Traladarans >would get more value from their efforts and there is an overall benefit to >the freemen/peasants. Also, Thyatis taxed all trades in Specularum (the only city it seems) which then left Traladara so another benefit to all people would be their economy wasn't slowly being drained. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:06:58 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 10:06 AM, Evil Genius wrote: >I don't remember anyone in this discussion saying they hated a certain >region - well, with the possible exception of yourself, who said, in >effect, just that about Thyatis. You got one right! >But let me make one thing clear for all time: I'm not going to let you or >anyone else deny to me an option that you reserves for yourself. If you >want to endourse someone when they say "LG", for example, and use "canon" >as your grounds for doing so, then more power to you. But you're not going >to simoultaniously deny the same option to employ "canon" in argumentation >to those who disagree with you. The fact that you posted your remarks >about people using "canon" in such a way and then in the very next mail >did essentially just that yourself speaks for itself. You just don't see it. I didn't endorse anything but that I agree Stefan is meant to be Lawful (Good). I don't even have the power to endorse anything. If you disagreed with anything the original poster said, you should take it up with him. He stated an opinion that the designer intended Stefan to be a good king. The only thing I did was agree that was one of the things I took into consideration. If you want to take that as my saying case closed, then like I said, go right ahead. I even made it a point to snip everything except that small statement from his post to show I agreed with nothing but that statement. Never once have I lumped those I disagreed with under terms such as apologists or compatriots that calls into question their motivations for agreeing with each other that Stefan is good. I don't even believe we agree with each other on each piece of canon we used individually. If you haven't figured it out yet, you are the main one I see trying to use canon to shut all those you call apologists up. Just the term implies something about what our view is holding is somehow wrong. Not just an opposing view but a wrong view. Aleksei and Jenn have the decency to address the individual views without resorting to subtle means of dismissing the opposing side. If you really want to be a victim of someone, I would suggest you actually find someone with power over you because I'm afraid, even if I wanted to, I couldn't silence you from posting. Just that post I made about all Thyatians being evil was enough to earn me one of your cherished labels for those you don't believe deserve anything but to hear the truth according to you. Sorry to the rest of the list that doesn't really care about all of this. You won't hear anything else on this particular thread from me. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes / No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) In-Reply-To: <39.cf4532a.275084b4@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 8:57 PM, BoBoII@AOL.COM wrote: > Oh, leave him alone. This has gone on long enough. I KNOW I am not the list > administrator, but would you all please continue this as a person to person > e-mail discussion and leave the rest of us out of this. Considering that this has not devolved to a flamewar, and has not strayed off the topic of Mystara, I see no reason why we cannot continue the discussion. I *am* terribly sorry if it does not interest you; I know how frustrating it can be to have your inbox filled with stuff in which you have no interest (the "Tanks in Mystara" thread of old comes immediately to mind;). >You all are starting > to remind me of the Republicans and Democrats in Florida. You are not going > to convince the other side that you are 'right.' That was never the intent. Only to discuss possibilites of using this character. If that's off-topic for the MML, then I'm in the Twilight Zone. :-) Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001124230632.009e6b80@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 11:28 PM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: > I checked and no, no mention of why or by who it was painted. I decided to > take a look at it and it started me wondering. Just how long how Traladara > been without a king since Halav? I always thought that "Traladara" - as a whole, centralized nation - did not exist. Even in the Traldar days, there was no central government; Halav was King of Lavv, Petra was Queen of Krakatos, etc. Later, local rulers led individual cities and settlements, such as Marilenev, Sulescu, Halag. that would also explain why development was slower than in more centralized countries during the same period. >Assuming the Cult of Halav are extremist, > I wonder if Stefan has become a symbol of the reestablishment of the golden > age. I'm sure you know that it wasn't uncommon for medieval artists to > place their subject in some way to legendary events. I must say that book > is the best use of artwork I've seen from TSR for any setting. > I think that perhaps that portrayal would be desirable to either Stefan himself or to his loyalists, although I would question the extent to which the Traladarans would believe that a foreign-born dictator could re-establish their Golden Age. In short, it doesn't make much sense to me. That said, I do agree with you that TSR's use of srtwork in that book was very well-done; I liked that the illustrations contained actual information, or flavor for he setting, rather than being just, well, illustrations. :-) >> I've always been curious as to how a church which is only 30 years old >> or so could have followers terrified of being excommunicated, but go >> figure... > > Well, there is an reason. I hate to say it... oh, what the heck, its bad > design. Noooo! ;-) >I think the Church of Karameikos was meant to be the main church > with the Church of Traladara and the Cult of Halav to be minor > beliefs. Even though the Church of Traladara is the largest. But the bad > design is that the main church of the nation is less defined than the minor > churches. Yes. > I don't think its a bad idea to investigate the whys of things. In a > previous post, I came up with some reasons that I hadn't really thought of > till I put my mind to it. Its probably harder to think about proving > something when it seems the material has already said it. I understand. It's always better, I think though, to have your own reasons for believing something, rather than following what you're told. But then again, I'm one of those weird, cynical people. ;-)~ Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001124232859.009ecec0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 11:44 PM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: > I certainly don't > mean by saying that because the designer assigned a lawful alignment to > Stefan that means everyone that disagrees should be quiet. Only that > because of that fact, I tend to try to keep that in mind when I see > something that challenges that alignment. As you might remember, I tend to > think canon needs a sledgehammer and crowbar to work properly :) I see. :-) I guess that in regards to you, I was just shocked to hear you defending the "strict interpretationist" viewpoint to vehemently, given that I remember your somewhat more lenient views in regards to "canonicity" in the past debates. This explanation does clear things up. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001124234522.009f6380@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/24/00 11:49 PM, trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: >> Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to >> get a definitive answer, once and for all. > > I wouldn't think that necessary because I suspect Stefan is meant to be > good. But Aaron had to deal with things like Fort Doom existing before he > wrote the gazetteer so had to explain how such an obvious evil place exists > in a good nation. I might have just ignored the earlier name or created a > small nation within Karameikos' borders. But its always easy to second > guess someone. I think that's the case, most likely. In regards to contacting Aaron, I've had two "yes" responses and three "no responses (one was phrased in a not-so-nice way:( So, unless anyone else has an opinion on the matter, I'll consider that the "nays" have it. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: <01de01c056a7$c61a1860$2ed0893e@philjones> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 12:20 AM, mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK wrote: > Actually, it works for pre-WotI too. Although Stefan had cordial > relations/alliances with the nations that surrounded him, to trust them not > to invade his country while he stripped his defences down to forcefully > remove the Black Baron would have been foolish, if not suicidal. Even his > "ally" at the time, Thyatis, could not be trusted (as everyone that has > anything from a passing familiarity with Thyatian politics could easily > understand). But my point here was in reply to those who have opined here that before Stefan broke with Thyatis (justified or not), he and Thincol were the best of friends, or at least allies. If he were there with Thyatian approval, and the Emperor was his ally, and he had not "betrayed" Thincol, why in the world would Thyatis invade if Stefan moved his troops a little farther west to whoop butt on his cousin? Technically, as (before independence) Stefan was a vassal of Thincol, and Ludwig a vassal of Stefan, Thincol had a vested interest in Stefan taking out an unruly vassal. "Because Thyatians are treacherous and evil" is not a viable answer. >Then, of course, you have the Traladaran families to consider > as well. No sooner than Stefan would have removed Von Hendricks, than he > would have faced an opportunitic uprising by them. With his forces badly > mauled, and many of the survivors quite possibly symathetic or even for the > uprising, Stefan would have lost any chance of successfully defeating it. _That_ I believe could be true. > On the subject of the Black Baron though, I have one question. Why did the > Black Baron get defeated after the WotI??? Surely, it would have made more > sense to remove the Black Baron while the other countries were still > "posturing" themselves for war. Ifs Stefan's troops were called away to > battle (as they were, against the MoH), surely the Black Baron would have > capitalized on this and siezed control of Karameikos, knowing that even if > Stefans forces could not stop him. Even if they turned straight around at > that point to re-take Karameikos for Duke Stefan, Stefans forces would have > been weakened enough to allow the Black Baron to have a good chance of > defending against them (and I'm sure he could have come to some agreement > with the MoH for some "reinforcements" to aid in his securing of Karameikos, > and opening a second front against Darokin and its allies). :) I agree that this was a major oversight on the part of Mr. Allston and the folks at TSR. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001124214403.01ef7eb0@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 1:08 AM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: > Oops. Well ... there could be many! I think the problem is that it > started out seeming that there was an evil version of Stefan that was being > put forward as the /best/ interpretation of canon. I still think an evil > Stefan is very, very inconsistent with canon. No, not the "best." Just as an alternate, but fully viable, interpretation. > Guilty as charged, ma'am. I'm sorry. It happens to the best of us. ;-) > In answer, I'll say that you can reinterpret, but it should not be > represented as being really consistent with canon. The idea of writing a > different version of Karameikos as evil, though, could be quite fun. I think that, insofar as canon is inconsistent with itself on many points, that a version which is consistent with all parts of canon with the exception of the stated alignment _can_ be represented as being "consistent" with canon. Although I would never go so far as to say that it was "right" or "wrong." YMMV. :-) > Naturally you do. That is your position. I just don't happen to agree > with you. =;) Good 'nuff. :-) > BTW: I've conceded to Evil Genius that he has a worthy argument for > proposing his alignment to be LN. That's not to say that it should be, > only that he has a worthy argument. And admitting that the argument is "worthy" is really all I'm after. I can't speak for the others, of course, but I doubt that their position varies much from this. Just recognition that parts of the written material can be seen in more than one light, and that those of us who are proponents of the "alternate" view (or views) are not "wrong." > Well, what basis shall we use for the discussion, then? All we have is > canon to go by if we are trying in any way to have an objective discussion > about the original setting. If you are saying we should try to look at > canon holistically, fine. Then what? > > Are we 1) actively trying to find alternate interpretations, 2) trying to > find the interpretation "most" consistent in canon, or 3) trying to find > ways to patch over any inconsistencies. > > I have not done 1) at all, and engaged in both 2) and 3) in these many > threads. I would say #1 is what I'm after. One thing which I value deeply about having other Mystaraphiles to talk with is being able to discuss different ways of seeing things, reading "between the lines." That some people adhere to a strict interpretation of things to the point of stifling all discussion to the contrary has always bothered me more than a little, because to me it quells what could be many interesting discussions. There aren't any new products for our world - why not get the most mileage out of what we do have, rather than declaring "one truth?" In the case of the former choice, we can have many creative conversations; in the case of the latter, what's the poitn of even talking, if we have the printed stuff? > So, you're proposing option 1) for the purposes of this discussion? > Yeah, I suppose. :-) > This is now sounding more like option 2) with a sub-agenda of 1). Not really. I don't much care which is the "most consistent" with canon. I'm just interested in what other people might have made of the printed material, beyond simply following what it says. Note, again, that I can only answer for myself. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan and the immutable text of canonic law In-Reply-To: <20001125110820.B14450@esatclear.ie> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 5:08 AM, gmcc@ESATCLEAR.IE wrote: >> I'm sorry to see that there are still, after all these years, people on this >> list who cannot look at the material as a jumping-off point to their own >> creative thought, rather than as holy law, written in immutable stone. > > For one thing it makes it *really* difficult to bring all your stuff > round for a gaming session. Right, I'm going to have to buy the paper > versions! In the mean time, can I borrow Slate 3 (of 115) of Gaz 1? Mine cracked in the recent hot weather. ;-)~ Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 11:25 AM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > Now, as you might remember from the "Canon Wars" of X long ago, I have too > minds on that: On the one hand, "canon" gives us a basis of commonality of > discussion (it makes a good reference at least since we're more likely to have > access to the same info than if we just talked the particulars of our own > campaigns, where I'm pretty sure *each* of us "deviates" from "canon" in large > and small ways) - but it's a starting point for discussion, a foundation. Yes. It's impossible to argue with its value as a "basis of commonality." Since all Mystara is, really: those printed pages, we cannot disregard them. I would never propose such a thing. Only let's not exclude someone's ideas on a topic because they may propose a change to something printed there. Sometimes we lose sight of the independently creative aspects of the game in trying to preserve a single, coherent view of an out-of-print world. The problem is, that view (by not letting the world maintain its flexibility to a number of users) contributes to the stagnation and death of the very world we're trying to preserve. >Note > I also typically put "canon" in quotation marks (you can see it there). As do I. (Though I kinda' got lazy the other day. ;-) >But then, > somehow, certain folks have this image of me as adamantly adhering to all > "canon" none the less. Bizzare, because if anyone doesn't blindly adhere to > all things "canon" regardless of judgement, I'm certainly not that person.) I've had that problem as well. Since I have, in the past (and the present) fought for the legitimization of variant versions of Mystaran lore (the "non-canon" stuff), people sometimes get huffy when I stie "canonic" references for things in my discussions or work. As if, by defending alternate viewpoints, I am obligated to turn my back on the whole of "canon." I guess that some people (particularly the self-appointed "canon police", as I call them) can't get a grip on the fact that I (for one) can pick and choose as I want...and so can they. Go figure. >>> Well, "regurgutation" is kind of the basis of the whole thing, to an extent. >>> I cite my evidence, others cite theirs. Okay, fine. << > > Actually, I didn't write that; it was someone else. I replied to that. I caught that after I sent it. Sorry. > Note also that in a mail immediately following that statement, it's author > endorsed someone doing exactly that (he "had to agree" with a certain other > someone who asserted Stefan must be LG because it says so right in "canon"), > which was what I was getting at in my above comments. > > Now, I'd be happy if these folks could stick with such a position ("don't use > canon to silence people's opinions or prove a point"), rather than using it as > a means simply to whip those they disagree with into not using it, while > reserving the option for themselves and those they agree with to do exactly > that. I agree. The hypocrisy *can* get a bit thick in here at times. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on "his" Art Work In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 12:14 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: >> However, the painting is part of a "New Karameikan" art movement >> meant to "modernize" Traladaran artwork (interestingly, complete with a >> Stefan-lookalike Halav, and royal family lookalikes in the crowd...). > > Yes, good to bring that up. That's part of where I derive the "Cult of > Personality" remarks (here's the Halav-as-Stefan painting, there's the > Halav-recieving-the-submission-of-the-dispicable-Traladarans painting, > complete with a image of Magda Marilenev fawning over him. Oh, yes. I deliberately stayed away from that one. ;) >Then, for those of > you who admire Alphatia and "Terari", As you know, I'm neutral on Alphatia, but I do get a kick out of Tylion/Terari. :) >there's the painting of the ministers - > why is it that "Terari" looks like an unkempt lout? Where's his spider-silk > robe? Is that how people imagine "Terari" too look? Why the unflattering > portrature for him? He looks like a surly thug one would find in a seedy dive > in that picture.) Maybe he's so involved in the movement to better Stefan's image that he didn't want to show him up. ;-)~ Seriously, though, that's always bugged me. Everyone knows that "Terari" is Alphatian, and that he was the court mage to the Emperor and Empress - why the play at being a "lowly" wizard? It made no sense to me. Another bad call on the part of the designers, trying to make these characters more accessible to lowly PCs...or to play down his majesty so as not to overshadow Good King Stefan in the eyes of the players. Jenn ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Fwd: [MYSTARA] Stefan wins Florida's 25 electoral votes / No He Didn't!! (was looooong thread) [Off-list] In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001125101335.01ef4eb0@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 1:35 PM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: > I was originally going to send this message as an off-list reply but, I > wanted to let you all know by way of this post that I'm sorry to have > contributed to the clutter on the list recently, over what I think was a > basic misunderstanding on my part. It's not a problem. We all get our facts wrong sometimes - it's on the the hazards of communicating one-dimensionally. Sometimes it's hard to judge a person's meaning in the absence of facial expressions, vocal intonations, etc. As for the supposed "clutter," this list is the place to talk about such things - no need, IMO, for you to apologize in that regard. > I don't think it would be bad to ask him a simple question, but I don't > think that question would end up really being simple, nor would it end > discussion if you phrased it in a way that one "side" disagreed with. > > Whether you let sleeping dogs lie or ask him out of curiosity is up to > you. I'm darned curious myself, though to be honest, and it would > definitely help shut me up about author intent. =;) Well, I decided when I sent the message to leave it up to the group's consensus, and you can see in one of my last posts what came of that. > I think the general discussion /should/ continue but on the understanding > that the two "sides" will not change each other's minds about their > preferred alignment for Stefan and should stop trying to. Again, since changing anyone's mind on the matter was never the intent, I see no problem with the thread continuing. > Jenn and James say Stefan's actions need to be interpreted backwards to > determine his alignment, but that is what I think is just slightly > misleading, because that is not the whole picture. It's true, but you must > also consider intent, and the way intent is *described* in D&D is with > alignment. There are cases when the /same/ action could be taken by people > of good, neutral, /and/ evil morals, but for completely different reasons, > or intents. That is the core of my argument. Which is what leads to us having completely oppostie views on the subject. This isn't where the problem lies, IMO - it's in that when people just want to *discuss* their "opposite" view, they get shot down as "non-canonical." I think that this list hould be a place where people can discuss their alternate ideas freely. > This is the reason that I feel the burden of proof is upon us to show his > actions are completely incompatible with LG, before we say it /should/ be > changed. Again, I'm *not* trying to "prove" which side is "right," so that there can be a consensus for us to "change" the view of what is written in "canon." I'm not saying anything *should* be changed. You can't change what is printed. But you can have your own view of it, and I can have mine. I accept that yours is right to you, and that it is equally as legitimate as mine. I ask only that y ou give me the same consideration. >I remain unconvinced that there is enough evidence to show it is > *impossible* to interpret his actions as being consistent with LG. Again, this is a matter of opinion, upon which everyone will differ. > That being said, Jenn is right that if we take his actions alone, and in > the absence of a listed alignment, it is *totally* possible to assign a > different alignment to him and keep the rest of canon consistent. If > that's what we're /really/ trying to do, then more power to it. Just wanted to get the alternate explanation out there. Thank you for recognizing it. :-) > I may be partly guilty of this. Really, I just didn't want the alternate > view of Karameikos to be touted as "right." Jenn's post points out that > wasn't quite the original intent, but that's what started to come out of it. > > Mostly, I'm trying to find the most consistent view of canon possible, even > given that there are always some inconsistencies in a work of fiction. To > that end, even if an independent "scores" a point against me by pointing > out an error, I am actually grateful. I wouldn't want either side to > so-called "win" on misinformation. Am I strange for believing that there can be no "right" or "wrong" with a personal interpretation of a work of fiction? Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/25/00 1:39 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM wrote: > True, but what bothers me (and, I donno, may bother you as well), is that > various means are used to suggest that what Stefan did was ok because "the > Traladarans had it coming" - Yes, it's a particular pet peeve. >it does sort of remind me of a scene in Red Dawn > (old movie, not a great movie I guess), Hey, talkin' 'bout my generation. ;-) >where one of the dudes asks "if we do > X, how is that different from them" and the retort is "Because we live here!" > - Thats not a full excuse that covers any depravity and slaughter, but, IMO, > when you're acting against a "foreign occupier" if you will, some things *do* > go. As for what the Traladarans do (or try, anyhow) - doesn't sound much > different, stripped of the propaganda at least, from what PCs routinely do > (Overlord Y in X castle has taken over the nation, sneak in and try and kill > him at the behest of Patron B, a local leader who has hired them to help free > the land from Overlord Y). Yes, I see your point. And I, too, think that one would be expected to fight more fiercely in defense of one's homeland. As for what's an acceptable level of slaughter, I don't care to make that kind of judgment, since I tend to be put off by justifications of extreme violence, but I certainly think that were Mystara RL, I would give the Traladarans a bit more leeway than the invaders. > I mean, based on that, when Wendar sends the characters into Denagoth, Wendar > is engaging in political assassination and the PCs are the assassins. I'm sure > the Shadow Lord looks at it that way. No doubt. > True; the demonization of the Traladaran leaders goes hand-in-glove with the > simoultanious infantilizing of the average Traladarans, to excuse Stefan's > actions. I wonder what would happen if I attempted the same sort of thing > regarding, say, the Thratians (Hinterlanders)? "all their leaders are *EVIL* > and the rest of the population needs guidance in order to progress, so the > Thyatians are good" Sure, as in the Heldann Freehold: the natives were just superstitious barbarians who hadn't built nearly enough roads and walled cities, so the HKs are *good* because they brought civilization. Riiight. > (we've heard the "other side" from Herve today) - I'm sure > the Thyatians promote such an image among themselves, Speaking of which, James, have you ever given much thought to the benefit that Thyatis gets by propagating the belief among outsiders that its system is *totally* corrupt, and that its bureaucracy can be bought and sold? I'm sure that it lulled enemies into some stupid moves in the past. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001125125802.01ef5a50@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11/26/00 4:02 AM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: >> My statements were never intended to "imply that only this view of the >> materials is reasonable and correct." My entire point was that there are >> different interpretations of the material (one of which is my own, of >> course), which are equally legitimate, BUT that these views are legitimized >> because of people's belief in them, through their presentation of what they >> believe is evidence of such, > > I don't think simple belief that something is true makes something true. I > also think truth is something that is hard to discover, and that facts are > not the same thing as truth. But, given that the world we're speaking of is fictional, truth in this case can be seen in a number of ways. To me, "truth" is that Stefan is quie a devious fellow, and that the picture of him as a good ruler is naught but smoke and mirrors. To you, "truth" is quite the opposite. Since this is a world-on-paper, subject to the interpretation of anyone who reads it a little differently, and with no overarching moral or ethical implications to choosing a different view or not, I *do* think that belief in the truth of a position in this case (within reasonable limits, of course) is enough. > Regardless, what makes one's views supportable ("legitimate" seems somehow > not the right word) is the presentation of evidence. No argument there. Yes, the presentation of evidence make a view supportable, You'll get no argument from me, either. But I did use the word "legitimate" because people continue to insist that there are "illegitimate" views of this fictional setting, which I find highly objectionable. > Still, the ultimate problem here is that it is possible that the same > actions can be taken by people of different alignments, but for different > reasons. Which is why I make the point that this judgment is a matter of personal interpretation, and that everyone's interpretation is equally valid. >James turns around and says that no LG person could make an act > of betrayal, and besides, he really benefitted big-time in the end, so it > was all a selfish ruse anyway, Q.E.D. > > You (Jenn) say James makes the better argument, but did he really? Did > I? Didn't we both just really beg the question? No, I said that I concurred with James' argument, since it agrees with my own opinion on the matter, *but* that your argument is equally valid, since you gave your own evidence for your POV. >So, my statement about > burden of proof being upon the person making the more unlikely claim comes > back; I point out he's listed as LG and the evidence to date is > insufficient to say we should change it. Your premise is that we should > remove the so-called "straightjacket" of the listed alignment, and then you > declare that some side other than LG makes the best argument -- which I > still happen to disagree with. Let me clarify: 1) I don't think that the community's view of the printed material should necessarily be "changed." I'm not on a crusade to overthrow everyone's opinion. Only to get everyone to accept that people can hold alternate views of these things without being "wrong" or "heretical." 2) Yes, I think that we should not be chained to the listed alignment...or events...or whatever. An example: I've written a timeline history of Clan Alhambra. I used "canon" events as a sort of "trellis," if you will, for my timeline. However, as many things in "canon" conflict, I picked and chose from among printed events, and created my own history for the Belcadiz elves, since they were never given one. Do I think that everyone should adhere to my timeline? Certainly not! But do I want it recognized that my timeline is as legitimate an interpretation of "canon" events as, say, Harri Maki's, or someone else's? You bet. 3) Did I declare that some side other than LG made the best argument, *IMO*? Sure I did. I'm entitled to have an opinion of my own, and that opinion is that Stefan is one wicked SOB. ;-) However, I would *never* suggest that my view is the only "correct" view, nor that everyone should adhere to it. As in the examle above, I just think that others should recognize that, in a world where creativity is paramount, people might have different - but equally legitimate - views of things. > > Example 2: > I've pointed to Stefan's building of roads and communities as being in the > common good and benefitting Traladarans, which are things a LG ruler would > do. Solmyr (I think) says that Hitler did those things, too, so that's not > good enough evidence. I think that maybe you're seeing this a little too combatively. you gave your argument, which is that Stefan promoted infrastructure and other things wwhich benefitted his realm. Solmyr disagreed, saying that even evil rulers have done this. it wasn't that your evidence wasn't good enough. He was saying that even this evidence can have alternate interpretations. Yours is good. His is good. Sort of like you taking all your evidence for Stefan's goodness, putting it all together, and throwing it in the ring. I take all my evidence for the contrary and throw it in the ring. James takes all his evidence for Stefan being CN and throws it in the ring. And so on. People can read these differing viewpoints and say "Hmm...I agree with this, but your evidence is lacking," or "I disagree with that, but you have ag ood point." No judgments have to be made at all for us to have a creative discussion. There's just no reason to think that just because someone interprets that piece of evidence differenlty than you, that he's shooting you down. > So, now, before I try to convince you that Stefan is LG with his actions, > why don't we set some ground rules for what constitutes proof one way or > the other? I don't want to try to convince anyone of anything. I think it's kind of pointless, in fact. Jenn -- Valerya's Mystaran Dominion: http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/ Tome of Mystara e-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:15:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: ... and Back Again! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My promise is kept! Five days have passed, and I have returned - the peace is over :) My first reactions was: "GAH!!! 600+ mails!!!!" :( Still, I must say that it pleases me to find no attacks on Alphatia during my absense. ;) OTOH, I'm surprised to see that You people are *STILL* not done with all Your Stefan-bashing! By the Immortals, I thought it would have been over by now - give the poor fellow a rest. He's not all that important IMHO... Still, I'm happy to be back, and I'm sure You've all missed me immensely! :) - The Stalker, returned from the planes... Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: The Immutable Text of Canonic Law >> You just don't see it. I didn't endorse anything but that I agree Stefan is meant to be Lawful (Good). I don't even have the power to endorse anything. << And people don't have the power to use "canon" to "silence" you, but that didn't stop you from taking that up as a whip against people you disagreed with. >> If you disagreed with anything the original poster said, you should take it up with him. << I can see why you might want to shift the discussion away from you, but my point is that I did disagree with something said by an "original poster" - you and your simoultanious decrying of people using "canon" to silence others or prove a point, followed immediately by you supporting & doing just that. As for the "original poster" you're talking about, I did take up the points of disagreement I had with him with him. I'm taking up my points of disagreement with your statements with you. You may want to disassociate yourself from your own remarks, but you haven't done so yet. >> If you really want to be a victim of someone, I would suggest you actually find someone with power over you because I'm afraid, even if I wanted to, I couldn't silence you from posting. << Well, since *YOU*, not I, was the one who originally decried people who you percieved as attempting to silence others with "canon", I think you should print out the above statement, go to a mirror, and read it to yourself. I did make one mistake, though. I should have given your opinion the consideration it deserved, and ignored it completely. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:34:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Pratt Subject: Re: Planer Travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/00 3:02:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, gmcc@ESATCLEAR.IE writes: > I want to try and making plane hopping *wierd*. Nothing too > standard, I want them to *know* that they are not in kansas > anymore. Any suggestions on how to emphasize the wierdness? > Any ideas for wierd things to happen? (Not just in the canon > descriptions, any wierd things you think will help!) > > Also, one of my players plays in a Planescape campaign, so I > want to keep things quite different from the feel of those > adventures (don't want him getting bored!) - having not played > Planescape, any suggestions for maintaining a different 'feel'? I'll start by throwing out a source of inspirational reading for other-planar adventures: The Tier series by Phillip Jose Farmer has considerable material which could be borrowed and turned into a series of bizarre and intriguing planes of existence. Adjusting the level of functionality of magic is another way to throw players for a loop - I've sent players through highly magical and also non-magical planes before, with very interesting reactions from the players. Often forgotten is that the level of science available can also be adjusted - consider the player's reactions to a plane ruled by the Oards where no magic functioned at all! -Greg ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:57:40 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. In-Reply-To: <20001126223235.DB3008124@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>> Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy to contact Aaron and try to >>> get a definitive answer, once and for all. > I think that's the case, most likely. > > In regards to contacting Aaron, I've had two "yes" responses and three "no > responses (one was phrased in a not-so-nice way:( So, unless anyone else > has an opinion on the matter, I'll consider that the "nays" have it. I'm just a newbie to Mystara and this list. I'm building a near complete Mystara accessory library as I have done for all other TSR worlds and I love to get an insight into as much as I can of the authors (world creators) mind as I can. Even the perspective of one of the contributors, like Aaron. Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:25:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan's alignment In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:48 PM 11/25/00 -0500, you wrote: [snip] >> It just bothers me that I'm willing to accept that people might _choose_ to see Stefan as LG (because *they* choose it, rather than because it's what was printed on paper), but they're not willing to accept that he might be LE, to me, or CN, to you with equal legitimacy. << >Yes, well. . .as Calvin said to Hobbes, "you know how people are. They >never recognize greatness unless some authority confirms it." I'm still waiting to find out what we choose to agree makes one alignment assignment legitimate, for purposes of discussion. Striving for perfect consistency? Consistency with everything /except/ his listed alignment? Something else? My personal preference is to strive for perfect consistency, which means keeping whatever alignment is listed, so long as it is at all reasonable to do so. (People are still welcome to try to convince me it /is/ unreasonable, of course.) Jenn might not like that, because it is really very uncreative, but my motivation is not to be against creativity. I just want to ensure that I can use published products with minimal changes or worrying about what inconsistencies I might be introducing when I try to rewrite it. > >> Yes, that's one of my biggest sticking points with his character. I > think that Stefan is a classic wolf in (dirtied) sheep's clothing. << > >Yep. One might say there's nothing wrong with ambition, but how one >pursues ones ambitions (and the exact content of those ambitions - an >ambition to "put right what once went wrong" is different from an ambition >to shape and mold a nation in one's own image, for example). You make an awful lot of that one, isolated comment, E.G., and it doesn't even have to have been meant in a vain way. You just want to read it that way. His "own image" of Karameikos might simply be one with its own, new character, separate from the surrounding countries, and improved with the mixing of cultures (like Thyatis has been). BTW: I agree with your comment that ambition is not necessarily bad, but must be judged on how it is pursued. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was just going to let this one go, but I feel the need to make some minor clarifications about my position, in contrast to how it's being represented in this post. At 02:39 PM 11/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> I've never denied the culpability of the Marilenevs in the >Rebellion; only questioned the extent of the brutality with which the >revolt was crushed. Certainly, both sides of the conflict have done >terrible things. << > >True, but what bothers me (and, I donno, may bother you as well), is that >various means are used to suggest that what Stefan did was ok because "the >Traladarans had it coming" - it does sort of remind me of a scene in Red >Dawn (old movie, not a great movie I guess), where one of the dudes asks >"if we do X, how is that different from them" and the retort is "Because >we live here!" - Thats not a full excuse that covers any depravity and >slaughter, but, IMO, when you're acting against a "foreign occupier" if >you will, some things *do* go. As for what the Traladarans do (or try, >anyhow) - doesn't sound much different, stripped of the propaganda at >least, from what PCs routinely do (Overlord Y in X castle has taken over >the nation, sneak in and try and kill him at the behest of Patron B, a >local leader who has hired them to help free the land from Overlord Y). > >I mean, based on that, when Wendar sends the characters into Denagoth, >Wendar is engaging in political assassination and the PCs are the >assassins. I'm sure the Shadow Lord looks at it that way. > > >> My point was to examine the "bad" things Stefan has done, as "canon" > has certainly already cast the Traladaran clans in a not-so-nice light. << > >True; the demonization of the Traladaran leaders goes hand-in-glove with >the simoultanious infantilizing of the average Traladarans, to excuse >Stefan's actions. I don't think I've infantilised Traladarans or demonised Traladaran leaders. Read on. [Snipped examples of Thyatians demonising others for selfish purposes, and the accusation of me or others doing such in "defending" Stefan.] >No, these things are more mixed-at-best than to say the "civilizing >outsider is right, the locals misguided and under bad rule, so the >civilizing outsider is doing good by supressing the local leaders and >uplifting the locals to his/their version of civilization." I agree it is more mixed than simple black and white, but I don't think your quoted attitude is a correct representation of what I'm saying. The "civilizing outsider" (Stefan) is really just doing what the Thyatians should have been doing all along to help the Traladarans technologically and infrastructurally, anyway. That is, it's what they would have been doing while in charge, if they had actually given a tinker's cuss about the Traladarans, beyond securing a border. BTW: I think it has been shown in other posts that Stefan only suppressed leaders that demonstrated themselves to be traitorous. These same leaders seemed content enough for SEVENTY YEARS under Thyatian rule, presumably because their power structure was left unchanged. So, there was no reason for them to necessarily think another Thyatian ruler (Stefan Karameikos) would be worse or better. But the noted Traladaran leaders /did/ see it as an opportunity to seize more power. In so doing, they were killed or deposed, yes, but you could say they unwittingly hurt themselves by being too greedy. Other Traladaran estate owners that didn't participate in the uprising, or separated blame from themselves, managed to keep their status quo. That doesn't sound like suppression or tyranny to me. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:27:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3A1FF697.76172DDA@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:27 PM 11/25/00 +0000, you wrote: >Herve Musseau wrote: > > > > >My point is: canon description of events takes precedence over canon > > description of characters, when the two aren't coherent. And I'm not > > going to find far fetched explanation for all of the incoherences in > > Stefan's description and actions. > > > > Actually, maybe you should try. >[...] > >If the choice is between searching for far-fetched explanation to keep >Stefan good, and modifying Stefan alignment/motivations, I think the >second is easier, and leads to a more beliveable result, with a lesser >effort... why should I go for the first? I have to agree with Solmyr on this point. (Yes, this is /still/ Auld Skald. ;) That is, I would prefer to make the least number changes to canon possible to preserve consistency. (Yes, that /includes/ making changes like adding far-fetched explanations). However, I'm still of the opinion that the minimal number of changes required remains zero. The more I read, the more I see that there are some very good explanations within canon that support Stefan being good. I pointed out recently that Stefan's out-right attacking the Black Eagle Barony is likely to result in the wholesale massacre of the Traladaran population, b/c Ludwig keeps hostages from every single family in his barony for just such deterrent purposes. Recklessly risking the hostages lives would be very, very questionable. We can all agree he didn't do that! =;) -Auld Skald P.S. - I'm finding this discussion /very/ enlightening about the Karameikos material. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:35:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: My perspective on Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Thats if you can stand jenn's viewpoint on it > (nothing > > personal but her view of Karameikos clashes with > mine, > > the work is good quality, and if you want the game > > like that fine, but to me it just doesn't say > > Karameikos. > > Well, Chris, that's a backhanded compliment if I > ever heard one. I > appreciate that you think my work is of "good > quality," as I do try to give > a thorough product. And yes, we do tend to disagree > on the subject, which to > me is fine. As a matter of fact, I don't consider > your opinion "wrong," > though I do enjoy debating the logic/illogic behind > it, agreed. I think your view is quite understandable and fairly justifiable. I do also admit that I have a preference for the "more civilized" culture, rather then the indigenous one. Neither culture (Thyatian or traldarian) in this case actually strikes me as particually "good" but they are interesting none the less. I do however see the potential for Karameikian culture to be a very *good* influence on civilized culture, and I see stefan at the forefront of this. The biggest problem I think is that he is acctually working against the people in power of *both* cultures. I think stefan has the potential to make a great bad guy, but also an extramely interesting good guy, which is an option that has been repeatedly objected to by james with his three choices for a stefan, which I am strongly opposed to. This is perhaps why I come across as a bit harsh sometimes, and although there is no excuse for it I do apologise for it. The subjectiveness thing was something I felt needed to be vented because the idea that it could all just be a matter of perspective was getting lost. (the I'm right, everyone else is wrong attitude) This was brought to bear against the claim of definitions alignment's being absolutes, which IMO has been demonstrated as not so by canon on numerous occations, but this is a matter of interpretation. I don't want to debate the subjectiveness issue anymore, the only reason I wrote back to it was I found it offencive being told by james what I could think, and told how I did think, when he appeared to have no actual idea about what I was saying anyway. I do realize he thought I was saying he was wrong, and I do know why he got so aggitated at it, and I appologize for wording in such an aggressive nature. All I was really seeking from james though was an acknowledgement that he understood why I thought his arguement was flawed (which I still do think, but I think he has agreed to differ weather he saw my point or not). In this case it was the logic/illogic that I had the problem with not directly the stance. >which you have been > at times hard-pressed to sufficiently explain. English was never my strong point, I know. > However, I never said > anything along the lines of "Yes, Chris has an > opinion, _if you can stand > it_." Such a tone can only create bad blood between > us. I apologise to you for this, being from a country that (New Zealand) that has only really existed for 150 years, and has an indiginous population with a treaty signed between it and the crown, I have formed some fairly strong veiws about such cultural and racial dialemas, and this is why I disagree so strongly, not because your position is at all unjustified. Let me explain: Most Maori in New Zealand(the indiginous people) are fine and are productive, and I have no problem with them, but there are both those who are a drain on society and those that desire independance from the rest of New Zealand (often the same), or even that New Zealand should be ruled by them (all of us including non-maori). I do not view these things as good for society, the world, or any greater good. I think that life under these types of people who desire independance would be contary to world culture, civil rights, and the *good* of everyone involved. We are a democracy although the treaty complicates it somewhat. I have trouble "standing the views of" these types of people for many more reasons that I will not go into, sufice to say most of them that are recognized by the media come across as stupid and ignorant in my opinion. You are clearly not stupid of ignorant, quite the oposite I imagine, so do not take offence because none is intended. The *central* reason I do not like your stance is that I do see traldarians as culturally less developed as the thyatians and believe that the seperationalists (or Nationalists) are most likely to be the more stupid and ignorant ones, and as so I would not like them. Your portral plays up their side, and I have nothing against their culture, but it is better for a culture that is to survive to deal with other cultures in their own way then just reject them, IMO. Thus in an increasingly multicultural karameikos the seperationalists I see as detrimental to the culture of the traldarians, but it is a matter of perspective and flavour. Thus although your views are quite valid, I am natturally inclined to view people that you may view as good freedom fighters as stupid and ignorant (not to say they are one way or another). The primary difference in inclinations being in my view I see traldara as much less culturally advanced (and less capable of advancement) then the thyatians. These are the views that I hold and I do not think it unreasonable to hold contary views. I thought I would post them to give better perspective to my ideas, not to start any debate on the views because that could get off topic easy and I don't think it would be productive. So if it helps then good, if not oh well. > >It would be fine for adventuring in 800 AC > > but the world would be far less complex in it's > > political issues I feel. For an AC 1000 campaign I > > must differ. However I do see as much potential > for > > adventure, but it has a very different flavor. I > think > > that is why we dissagree so badly) > > I would always be interested in seeing an adaptation > of my work to an > earlier time period. I'm glad you think it would work. Currently however the campaign I am running is set in 984 Karameikos, so there is much more chance that it will be intergrated into a good king stefan perspective if thats ok, and I have gotten some brilliant ideas about how to do that in the past couple of weeks, due to this string. I have actually found the disscussion quite useful. :-) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:48:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Good King Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > There's quite a difference between using the printed > works as evidence for > your own interpretation, and blindly quoting it as > dogma. I encourage those > supporters of Stefan to logically explain their > evidence (outside of the > alignment stats, but rather based upon that > character's actions) for > believing that he is a good ruler. I just thought I'd mention I intend to very soon. And I do agree, blindly quoting it as dogma is bad, but one could argue that both sides have been guilty of this, but if you wait till after I've assembled my evidence for good stefan to argue this (if at all) I would prefer it. Chris. hoping to shed a new light on the matter soon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:21:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Stefan and "canon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Yes. What is wrong with interpreting events? > Interpretation is simply how > you, as an individual, read between the lines of > something. You do it. I do > it. Both our views are equally legitimate. For you > to suggest otherwise is > hubris. Nothing is wrong with interpreting event, and I agree as above. > "Canon" says also that he has done some fairly > morally ambiguous deeds. I > take that view, you take the one out of the stat > block (alignment). Both > equally valid. And since they each choose a part of > the printed work as > preferable to another conflicting part, are > "non-canon." I still do not think I have seen any undisputablly morally ambiguous deeds from stefan. If I do ignore canon then I am happy to call it non-canon. I do not believe I do, but I do feel you do and this is illistrated by statements like "Once you remove yourself from the "canon says he's LG" straightjacket." To me it is not a straightjacket, and if it is posible to create a logical, reasonable reason for events that fit with other stated ideas then I think this is the best approch. You believe that there is not a good explanation for his actions and that your is therefore interpretation is therefore canon, whereas I believe the oposite and to me your interpretation is non-canon. That does not make me right, nor does it make me wrong. Just in my opinion your conclutions are non-canon. Does that make sence. > Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think that you were > around for all the > "Canon wars" of the past years. They were ugly to > say the least, and divided > this community for some time. The scars still run > deep. No I wasn't, so I appologise for the tone that may have arrisn. >But a kind of > detente came from those battles, an unspoken truce > that says that everyone > is entitled to their own views of Mystara. I agree, there is however nothing wrong with it being concidered non-canon in my opinion. After all, it is just my opinion, is that not reasonable. >Notice > that the "veterans" of > this list have not run amok during this discussion > screaming "non-canon!" We > all (or nearly all) have the books; we know what is > printed; we have decided > to read it in our own way for the sake of > creativity. No problem with that. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:52:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 04:19 PM, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >I always thought that "Traladara" - as a whole, centralized nation - did not >exist. Even in the Traldar days, there was no central government; Halav was >King of Lavv, Petra was Queen of Krakatos, etc. Later, local rulers led >individual cities and settlements, such as Marilenev, Sulescu, Halag. that >would also explain why development was slower than in more centralized >countries during the same period. Quite possible. The material that I still have is woefully lacking on such things. Like you said, was Halav king of all the Traldar or just a portion? Did the kings that followed his rule attempt to establish themselves over all of Traladara? I've always taken it that Halav became king of all Traldar and the later kings attempted to unite what was left after the Beast-Men wars without success. I wouldn't think it out of possibilities that those that didn't accept Halav as king died to the Beast-Men first. >I think that perhaps that portrayal would be desirable to either Stefan >himself or to his loyalists, although I would question the extent to which >the Traladarans would believe that a foreign-born dictator could >re-establish their Golden Age. In short, it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm sure you meant king instead of dictator ;) But that ties in with what I was saying. Messiahs have often times not belonged to the group they come for. The existence of the Cult does offer some evidence that some will accept a foreign-born leader but then they aren't the most reliable of sources of what the typical Traladaran thinks. >That said, I do agree with you that TSR's use of srtwork in that book was >very well-done; I liked that the illustrations contained actual information, >or flavor for he setting, rather than being just, well, illustrations. :-) I think its the only time TSR used artwork in such a way. Then turned around and dropped the ball with the Glantri set. I didn't get any type of flavor from that set. >I understand. It's always better, I think though, to have your own reasons >for believing something, rather than following what you're told. But then >again, I'm one of those weird, cynical people. ;-)~ Well, yes. That's a good rule to follow. I was just saying that its a much harder to look at it and reinvent the wheel so to speak when so much what I would fall back on as evidence could be called propaganda. But that propaganda would be a good tool to use for the opposite view. Its that anywhere near clear? -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:18:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 04:19 PM, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >I guess that in regards to you, I was just shocked to hear you defending the >"strict interpretationist" viewpoint to vehemently, given that I remember >your somewhat more lenient views in regards to "canonicity" in the past >debates. This explanation does clear things up. Well, I am pleased that if I left you confused the first time I was able to explain myself better this time. I just consider it the first step in determining how you will use something. I don't believe in saying he is lawful good so stop saying he isn't. But this dark version of Stefan does help point out some areas that I should probably work on if I want to keep that good version for myself. Such as the land grab by the Thyatians. I should figure out what Stefan did about that. With Ludwig, I've already decided to down play Stefan's blindside to his family by saying Ludwig has been operating mostly in secret and there are no forces in place to protect the rest of the nation from Halag (dropping the name Fort Doom in the process). And I think there's a chance to either play up the role of the Iron Ring in Ludwig's secret circle or a new organization that has yet to be uncovered (I was thinking of naming them the Doombringers with Fort Doom the code name for Halag but I'm hoping to uncover something in the Traladara folklore to use). But that's all just some thoughts I'm playing with. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:29:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 04:19 PM, Jennifer Guerra wrote: >"Because Thyatians are treacherous and evil" is not a viable answer. But isn't that true? ;) Seriously, I'm wondering just how good the relation between Stefan and Thincol was. Resentful feelings on what Thincol had done with his ancestral lands? And the relationship between Glantri and Karameikos. Was it good enough to go to the line for them where as Thyatis seemed to have allied with them just because they opposed Alphatia. And remember, the only thing Thyatis really got out of the war was ruin and probably would have been an occupied land if Alphatia hadn't sunk. Not impossible that Karameikos thought of that possibility and considered it a foolish act making the treaty a liability instead of the asset it was meant to be. Breaking it his way of saying, "Whoa, people! That's your crazy party and we ain't coming!" Karameikos would have made a nice target. Right in the middle of the region able to launch more attacks on Thyatis and Glantri while claiming they didn't attack any sovereign nation that hadn't declared war on them. I liked the war since it did gave Karameikos a reason to declare public independence :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:40:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: ... and Back Again! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/26/00 05:15 PM, The Stalker wrote: >Still, I must say that it pleases me to find no attacks on Alphatia during >my absense. ;) Actually, I had thought to mount an attack but couldn't find the dang place! :) -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 03:58:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: ... and Back Again! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:40:24 Timothy R. Haney wrote: >At 11/26/00 05:15 PM, The Stalker wrote: >>Still, I must say that it pleases me to find no attacks on Alphatia during >>my absense. ;) > >Actually, I had thought to mount an attack but couldn't find the dang place! :) > Glad to see my spell of disorientation is still working! :) Seems that some other wizards still haven't put up the spells which were supposed to redirect attacks toward Glantri and Thyatis, though... I'll look into it momentarily - thanks for pointing it out! :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:20:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:34 PM 11/25/00 -0600, you wrote: > >In the DMG's guide of the Alphatia/Thyatis boxed set, the description of >Machetos on page 14 says that when Thincol got Machetos he sold off all >the slaves. Given Stefan's opposition to slavery, these slaves were >probably inherited from his father, rather than acquired by Stefan >himself. It doesn't explicitly say that the slaves were his, though, either. My inference from the text was that the slaves were just any slaves present within Machetos, not specifically Stefan's slaves. IE, Thincol (the Crown) simply confiscated any and all slaves that were owned in Machetos and sold them off. I could see your interpretation, too, though. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:44:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards In-Reply-To: <3A213046.25182C0A@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:46 PM 11/26/00 +0200, you wrote: > >This reminds me of something I found strange. Specularum's original name >was Marilenev. Yet when Stefan renames it, he calls it by its "original >name" Mirros. Stefan's mistake, or deliberate muddling of past history? Most likely author mistake, but perhaps an in-character explanation might be that Mirros was the Traladaran translation of Marilenev's nickname "the Mirror City". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:45:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Specularum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > This reminds me of something I found strange. > Specularum's original name > was Marilenev. Yet when Stefan renames it, he calls > it by its "original > name" Mirros. Stefan's mistake, or deliberate > muddling of past history? IIRC I read something (not gaz 1) the other day saying it was renamed after the original thyatian invasion. I'll try to find it again unless anyone else know's. It could be a mistake. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:47:38 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001126094901.01efa5c0@pop.uniserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:46 AM 11/26/00 -0800, Derek Adam wrote: > >In the Communities section, it says that each family in the BEB must leave >a hostage who will be killed if anyone in the family escapes. Presumably, >the Duke is aware of this, since Yolanda of Luln has sung for him. The >idea that perhaps 20% of the population (assuming a nuclear family of about >5, say), all innocents, could be slain if he takes too overt an action >against the Baron, would certainly give a good person pause. Ooh! Here's a thought- Perhaps Stefan's "non-action" and turning of a blind-eye when the Hin sacked the Black Eagle Barony was actually a ruse- since the BEB thought Stefan wasn't getting involved, he didn't bother with the hostages, but meanwhile secret agents of Stefan were sneaking in during the confusion and freeing the hostages and ferreting them out of the beseiged barony back to their families. Hey, just because it isn't explicitly spelled out in canon, doesn't mean it didn't happen. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ierendi and Freeport? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001126132025.007a7210@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:20 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote: > > Has anyone picked up the "Death in Freeport" D20 module? How well could it >work with Ierendi or Minrothad? I like the idea of a swashbuckling city, >and that would be my preference on how to serious-up Ierendi, but since my >games aren't set there yet, I'm not in a hurry to spend yet more RPG money >(just bought the Star Wars D20 game) on something that won't fit my purposes. I looked through it for similar reasons (actually wondering if it would fit for Caerdwicca). It could definitely work for Ierendi- it's set on a series of islands, and there is a lot of background dealing with Serpent beings and their descendants and stuff (perhaps from the Isle of Dread regions, or legacies of a Nithian Set type of deity/Malpheggi lizardmen). So, yeah, I think it could definitely work for Ierendi, though you'd have to ignore the map in the module and just set it there. It's unwrapped, so it's really easy to look through it (like I did), if you just want to browse it in the store. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 04:03:28 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 11/25/00 12:20 AM, mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK wrote: > > > Actually, it works for pre-WotI too. Although Stefan had cordial > > relations/alliances with the nations that surrounded him, to trust them not > > to invade his country while he stripped his defences down to forcefully > > remove the Black Baron would have been foolish, if not suicidal. Even his > > "ally" at the time, Thyatis, could not be trusted (as everyone that has > > anything from a passing familiarity with Thyatian politics could easily > > understand). > > But my point here was in reply to those who have opined here that before > Stefan broke with Thyatis (justified or not), he and Thincol were the best > of friends, or at least allies. If he were there with Thyatian approval, and > the Emperor was his ally, and he had not "betrayed" Thincol, why in the > world would Thyatis invade if Stefan moved his troops a little farther west > to whoop butt on his cousin? Technically, as (before independence) Stefan > was a vassal of Thincol, and Ludwig a vassal of Stefan, Thincol had a vested > interest in Stefan taking out an unruly vassal. > > "Because Thyatians are treacherous and evil" is not a viable answer. It would not have been Thincol that Stefan would have had to fear, it would have been the Senate. With Karameikos's armies weakened to the point of ineffectuality after a war with the Black Baron, the Senate would have pressed Thincol to send troops to "aid in the defence" of Karameikos (for a suitable renumeration (that would have been discussed after the Thyatian force had reached Karameikos) of course). Whilst on the surface Thyatis would have been just trying to aid their ally, underneath the facade, their intent would have been far more self serving. In actual fact, the Senate would be ensuring that another country would not conquer Karameikos, so Thyatis would not have a potentially hostile country on its border (actually, this would be very similar to the conlusion they came to, when deciding to conquer Traladara in 900 AC). Of course, once Thyatian troops were on Karameikan soil, the Senate would keep finding ways of justifying Thyatian troop presence there, even above Stefans' proclaimations to the contrary. In essence, they would have re-annexed Karameikos under the banner of "protecting Thyatis and its interests". I think that this would be very much in line with Thyatian thinking, and this sort of realization would indeed cause Stefan to fear his larger neighbour, treaty or no treaty. If Stefan was to move against the Black Baron, he would have to wait until world focus was elsewhere (such as the the events that led up to the WotI), so his country's momentary weakness could not be exploited by anyone. Phil (aka Alexander Korrigan, humble student of the Great School of Magic) "I am not evil. Just practical." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:01:47 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Good King Stefan In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001126192022.0080ecc0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 10:34 PM 11/25/00 -0600, you wrote: > > > >In the DMG's guide of the Alphatia/Thyatis boxed set, the description of > >Machetos on page 14 says that when Thincol got Machetos he sold off all > >the slaves. Given Stefan's opposition to slavery, these slaves were > >probably inherited from his father, rather than acquired by Stefan > >himself. > > It doesn't explicitly say that the slaves were his, though, either. My > inference from the text was that the slaves were just any slaves present > within Machetos, not specifically Stefan's slaves. IE, Thincol (the Crown) > simply confiscated any and all slaves that were owned in Machetos and sold > them off. > Much as I would tend to want to interpet things in Stefan's favor, I can't see Thincol being able to get away with confiscating the slaves of everyone in the entire Duchy and selling them without provoking the Senate to go berserk on him. After all, what's to stop him doing it to their slaves next? John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:03:02 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: black eagle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Ifs Stefan's troops > were called away to > battle (as they were, against the MoH), surely the > Black Baron would have > capitalized on this and siezed control of > Karameikos, knowing that even if > Stefans forces could not stop him. Even if they > turned straight around at > that point to re-take Karameikos for Duke Stefan, > Stefans forces would have > been weakened enough to allow the Black Baron to > have a good chance of > defending against them (and I'm sure he could have > come to some agreement > with the MoH for some "reinforcements" to aid in his > securing of Karameikos, > and opening a second front against Darokin and its > allies). The black eagle is evil, not stupid. If he stoped the reinforcements against the master, then he would likely have to deal with the master himself later. And both being bad guys are even less likely to trust each other, thus asking the master for forces could get dangerous. Thats what I think anyway. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:25:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Ierendi and Freeport? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:51:34 -0800 Andrew Theisen writes: > At 01:20 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote: > > > > Has anyone picked up the "Death in Freeport" D20 module? > How well > could it > >work with Ierendi or Minrothad? I like the idea of a swashbuckling > city, > >and that would be my preference on how to serious-up Ierendi, but > since my > >games aren't set there yet, I'm not in a hurry to spend yet more > RPG money > >(just bought the Star Wars D20 game) on something that won't fit my > purposes. > > I looked through it for similar reasons (actually wondering if it > would fit > for Caerdwicca). It could definitely work for Ierendi- it's set on a > series > of islands, and there is a lot of background dealing with Serpent > beings > and their descendants and stuff (perhaps from the Isle of Dread > regions, or > legacies of a Nithian Set type of deity/Malpheggi lizardmen). > > So, yeah, I think it could definitely work for Ierendi, though you'd > have > to ignore the map in the module and just set it there. > > It's unwrapped, so it's really easy to look through it (like I did), > if you > just want to browse it in the store. A little while back, I posted a brief conversion idea: "Acutally, if I didn't know better, I would say it was specifically written for Mystara in 1016. I think the Serpent's Teeth Islands can be easily dropped in as a psuedo-independant part of Ierendi (like most of that Kingdom, actually). The timeline mentions a large war on the main continent 11 years ago (1005- the Great War), though I haven't yet tried correlating older history with that of Ierendi's. The Cult of the Unspeakable One is obviously a Carnifex/Outer Being cult, and the Serpent People are degenerate descendants of the various reptilian empires. However, the "true history of the islands" needs to be changed to "History as the Serpent People know it" as it works fairly well as a corrupted version of legends of the Carnifex Tyranny, Serpentine Empire, and Y'hog." Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:02:24 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This reply to Jenn delves into philosphy, definitions of truth and the construction of logical arguments. Interested parties in the continuing Stefan discussions may want to read this just to see where I'm coming from. None of this is relevant directly to anything in the setting, yet, so if none of that interests you, feel free to delete this now. At 04:19 PM 11/26/00 -0600, you wrote: >On 11/26/00 4:02 AM, dereka@UNISERVE.COM wrote: > > >> My statements were never intended to "imply that only this view of the > >> materials is reasonable and correct." My entire point was that there are > >> different interpretations of the material (one of which is my own, of > >> course), which are equally legitimate, BUT that these views are > legitimized > >> because of people's belief in them, through their presentation of what > they > >> believe is evidence of such, > > > > I don't think simple belief that something is true makes something true. I > > also think truth is something that is hard to discover, and that facts are > > not the same thing as truth. > >But, given that the world we're speaking of is fictional, truth in this case >can be seen in a number of ways. To me, "truth" is that Stefan is quie a >devious fellow, and that the picture of him as a good ruler is naught but >smoke and mirrors. To you, "truth" is quite the opposite. Since this is a >world-on-paper, subject to the interpretation of anyone who reads it a >little differently, and with no overarching moral or ethical implications to >choosing a different view or not, I *do* think that belief in the truth of a >position in this case (within reasonable limits, of course) is enough. This is quickly turning into a philosophy discussion! I define truth as the (one) perfect metaphysical representation of reality, not just what we think reality is. Our belief in something does not actually create that reality. Truth is not relative, it is absolute. We try to achieve an understanding of truth by uncovering facts, but facts are not truth. In the same way that only looking at the tail of an elephant won't tell you what an elephant is, neither will looking at a portion of the available facts tell you what the truth is. We can only hope to closely approximate the truth by uncovering as many facts as we can. When we can say we have *all* of the facts we say our understanding of them constitutes the truth. (Of course, it's always arguable to a confirmed skeptic that we ever have all the facts.) So, having said all that (whew!) we should agree on what we are trying to discover. I /was/ trying to discover if the canonical view of Stefan as Lawful Good is potentially 100% consistent. I still think it is. You seem willing to agree with me about that -- are you still asking for more evidence? I'm willing to go looking if you still want. Obviously, if my proposition /is/ true, then other alignments /cannot/ be 100% consistent with canon, because his listed alignment is Lawful Good. If we are trying to find all the alignments that could be 100% consistent with canon, with the singular exception of his listed alignment, I'm will to do that, too, but that's not the same question. > > Regardless, what makes one's views supportable ("legitimate" seems somehow > > not the right word) is the presentation of evidence. No argument there. > >Yes, the presentation of evidence make a view supportable, You'll get no >argument from me, either. But I did use the word "legitimate" because people >continue to insist that there are "illegitimate" views of this fictional >setting, which I find highly objectionable. I hate to nitpick, but I don't know what you mean by legitimate. If you mean legitimate in the sense that the purpose of gaming materials is to have fun, and that they are only a jumping-off point from which we are meant to pick and choose, chinese-food style (as it's been put), from the ideas given to us, then you are correct that you have a legitimate view of the setting. However, if you mean legitimate in the sense that there are multiple views that are equally consistent with canon, I disagree, but I am willing to investigate that possibility. It requires that canon is necessarily self-contradicting on this point and I remain unconvinced of that. > > Still, the ultimate problem here is that it is possible that the same > > actions can be taken by people of different alignments, but for different > > reasons. > >Which is why I make the point that this judgment is a matter of personal >interpretation, and that everyone's interpretation is equally valid. See above. As an aside, a valid argument (or interpretation, as we're calling it) in philosophical terms means that it is formed such that if all of the premises are true, then the conclusion must also be true. Being valid, however, does not ensure the premises are true, nor that the conclusion is true. So, if you take the premise that Stefan is LE, add examples from canon that are not incompatible with this premise, and then conclude that Stefan is LE, you will necessarily have a valid argument, but it will not make your conclusion true. If I am allowed to say that Stefan is not LE (e.g. that he is LG), then your conclusion is false. If I am not allowed to say that Stefan is not LE, then I cannot prove whether your conclusion is true or false, but you are still necessarily begging the question. > > >James turns around and says that no LG person could make an act > > of betrayal, and besides, he really benefitted big-time in the end, so it > > was all a selfish ruse anyway, Q.E.D. > > > > You (Jenn) say James makes the better argument, but did he really? Did > > I? Didn't we both just really beg the question? > >No, I said that I concurred with James' argument, since it agrees with my >own opinion on the matter, *but* that your argument is equally valid, since >you gave your own evidence for your POV. Ah. Still, if we take the entire body of canon, I still think I am the only one with a valid argument, because his alignment is listed as LG. If we throw that out, then all bets are off, and it's a different question (which is still worthy of discussion!). > >So, my statement about > > burden of proof being upon the person making the more unlikely claim comes > > back; I point out he's listed as LG and the evidence to date is > > insufficient to say we should change it. Your premise is that we should > > remove the so-called "straightjacket" of the listed alignment, and then you > > declare that some side other than LG makes the best argument -- which I > > still happen to disagree with. > >Let me clarify: > >1) I don't think that the community's view of the printed material should >necessarily be "changed." I'm not on a crusade to overthrow everyone's >opinion. Only to get everyone to accept that people can hold alternate views >of these things without being "wrong" or "heretical." I already agreed with you on that. At least, on the "heretical" part. =;) I was just arguing that it is incorrect to portray your view as being at least as consistent with canon as mine. (My argument stands on the basis that you have changed his alignment, I have changed nothing, and we *might* both still be able to come up with an alignment that fits the rest of canon.) Anyway, it that hardly matters. It's just a game. The only object of the game is to have fun. >2) Yes, I think that we should not be chained to the listed alignment...or >events...or whatever. Okay, then. That forms the basis of our discussion. We can dispense with my original task of discovering whether canon can be left alone and still be considered consistent w.r.t. Stefan's alignment, if you like. >3) Did I declare that some side other than LG made the best argument, *IMO*? >Sure I did. I'm entitled to have an opinion of my own, and that opinion is >that Stefan is one wicked SOB. ;-) Heh. Okay! Still, opinion and fact are not the same, and I guess we can agree to disagree, if you like. >However, I would *never* suggest that my >view is the only "correct" view, nor that everyone should adhere to it. As >in the examle above, I just think that others should recognize that, in a >world where creativity is paramount, people might have different - but >equally legitimate - views of things. But, in a world where creativity takes greater importance than the material, that would necessarily legitimize your view. I didn't think that was the basis of the discussion. If it is, then I'm waaaayyy wrong in sticking to canon, because there is nothing intrinsically creative at all with that. > > Example 2: > > I've pointed to Stefan's building of roads and communities as being in the > > common good and benefitting Traladarans, which are things a LG ruler would > > do. Solmyr (I think) says that Hitler did those things, too, so that's not > > good enough evidence. > >I think that maybe you're seeing this a little too combatively. That's very possible. =;) I hate to lose an >you gave >your argument, which is that Stefan promoted infrastructure and other things >wwhich benefitted his realm. Solmyr disagreed, saying that even evil rulers >have done this. it wasn't that your evidence wasn't good enough. He was >saying that even this evidence can have alternate interpretations. Yours is >good. His is good. Agreed. >Sort of like you taking all your evidence for Stefan's goodness, putting it >all together, and throwing it in the ring. I take all my evidence for the >contrary and throw it in the ring. James takes all his evidence for Stefan >being CN and throws it in the ring. And so on. People can read these >differing viewpoints and say "Hmm...I agree with this, but your evidence is >lacking," or "I disagree with that, but you have ag ood point." No judgments >have to be made at all for us to have a creative discussion. There's just no >reason to think that just because someone interprets that piece of evidence >differenlty than you, that he's shooting you down. Okay. This still sounds to me like a thorough search of the facts with the intention of finding or deciding for ourselves what we think the truth is. This is worthy, in the sense that we have multiple "Devil's Advocates" against the canonical alignment, and makes for a very good testing ground. I'm all for it. > > So, now, before I try to convince you that Stefan is LG with his actions, > > why don't we set some ground rules for what constitutes proof one way or > > the other? > >I don't want to try to convince anyone of anything. I think it's kind of >pointless, in fact. Ah. Okay. - Those who do not wish to be convinced under any circumstances /cannot/ be convinced. AND - What's the point of convincing anyone anyway? =;) We're still going to enjoy the game the way we decide we want to. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:17:05 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Stefan & "author intent" , if asking a question what should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Eric Anondson wrote: > >>> Of course, if you want, I'd be more than happy > to contact Aaron and try to > >>> get a definitive answer, once and for all. > > > I think that's the case, most likely. > > > > In regards to contacting Aaron, I've had two "yes" > responses and three "no > > responses (one was phrased in a not-so-nice way:( > So, unless anyone else > > has an opinion on the matter, I'll consider that > the "nays" have it. well I wasn't going to say anything, but I am quite interested to know what the designers thoughts on the matter were. However I agree with the earlier statement that the phrasing is important and I do think we should get this straight before anyone decides to write to him. p.s. I'm not sure I want a straight what alignment should stefan be question, but I havn't qiven enough thought to the matter to say what it could be yet. Any ideas? Hope this could help. Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:57:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Carnifex? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've heard him (it?) mentioned before, but I know nothing about who or what Carnifex is. Anyone care to enlighten me and point me towards any canon materials? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 01:06:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara >> I was just going to let this one go, but I feel the need to make some minorclarifications about my position, in contrast to how it's being represented in this post. << I don't remember mentioning you in that post. Were you the one who compared the leading Traladaran families to mafiosi by way of justifying Stefan's actions towards them? I admit I don't remember. >> [Snipped examples of Thyatians demonising others for selfish purposes, and the accusation of me or others doing such in "defending" Stefan.] << Interesting observation is that the denegration of Traladaran leaders always seemed to be raised in response to a criticism of Stefan's actions in that regard, as if by way of justifying (defending) his actions. >> The "civilizing outsider" (Stefan) is really just doing what the Thyatians should have been doing all along to help the Traladarans technologically and infrastructurally, anyway. That is, it's what they would have been doing while in charge, if they had actually given a tinker's cuss about the Traladarans, beyond securing a border. << Now you're (deliberately?) mischaracterizing what happened when the Thyatians were in control. Specularuam/Marilenev grew from a small burg to a decent sized city. Trade was fostered and expanded, because of the safety that was (supposedly) provided (I'm sure Jenn and others can say how such "safety" of the Thyatian protectorate itself wasn't nessissary). Indeed, if you look at developments as described, under the Thyatian regime things were already on the path certain folks *claim* that Stefan is solely responsible for creating (I.E. the fostering of growth of cities, trade, security, etc.) - one big difference during the Thyatian Protectorate era, though: The Thyatians didn't tinker with Traladaran culture & customs like they were some sort of scupture to be molded. They left them alone to that degree. Indeed, if one reads the materiel, one notices that the things that folks are ascribing as benifits brought to the region by Stefan were already occuring during the Thyatian Protectorate. And, I'd be remiss to not point out that the "darkness" was lifting even BEFORE the Thyatians came (indeed, their reason for coming, like Stefan's, wasn't some altruistic enterprise to "uplift" the backward locals - politics was involved. In one case, the political ambitions of one man. In the other, power politics to gain control over the rising region before someone else did or a hostile indigenous power did). Traladara was already developing on its own before the Thyatians took control. Trade, security, and cities were already being fostered and growing during the Thyatian Protectorate era. I'm not sure anyone can prove one way or another whether things improved faster than they would have under Stefan. But one thing is indisputable: Stefan, unlike the earlier Thyatians, attempted wholesale changes in Traladaran custom, which were not always welcomed by the locals. And Stefan, unlike the Thyatians (under whom the City of Specularuam grew 6000% - under Stefan it's grown "only" 233%), unleashed a plague of locust-like grasping men upon the Traladarans, his men siezed their lands (did that improve the security of the Traladarans?) >> These same leaders seemed content enough for SEVENTY YEARS under Thyatian rule, presumably because their power structure was left unchanged. So, there was no reason for them to necessarily think another Thyatian ruler (Stefan Karameikos) would be worse or better. << Except that he comes in and makes his anouncement (as stated in the Gaz.) Just what did he say? As you say, they didn't revolt under previous Thyatian governors. So what did Stefan do to make them change their minds? Did he, in his exuberance, let them know his plans for shaping and molding their nation in his image? I can imagine they'd be fit to be tied, and would certainly see that as a change from previous Thyatian apointees, which they didn't revolt against. >> But the noted Traladaran leaders /did/ see it as an opportunity to seize more power. << Power that Stefan possibly threatened to take anyhow, with his anouncement. They hadn't been disturbed by previous Thyatian apointees, but here comes this new guy, his head filled with all sorts of threatening notions about remodeling their way of life. Increased trade was one thing, one could see them thinking - after all, they benifit from that. But now some foreign overlord wants them to change their customs to fit his desires. . .very different. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:53:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: New spell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A new elfic spell Name of spell: Rapid growth vegetable Level: IV Range: 50 meter Component: V, S, M Material component: 1cm3 of water-melon for tree Duration: 10 days for level Time of throwing : 6 turn Effect area: 2 tree for level This spell increase of 100 the growth's rate of tree. During the increase growth the tree need only 1/10 of water that they need normally. The spell has effect only one time for tree, another spell haven't effect. During the increase growth the tree don't made flowers and fruits. This spell work only over tree that have an average life at least 100 years. This spell is found by Galdor, a Callarii elf of Rifflian. Renato ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:24:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: An idea for Emerond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evil Genius wrote: > I've also thought that it would work well for Emerond, since several of the things sound similar to what Emerond is described as having/using > (I don't see that similarity in Herath that someone else mentioned, but to each their own). Herath is bound to heavily use magic in their creations. Anyway, I can see some of the Creatures and, especially, Parasites as adaptable to Herath too. Tissues, OTOH, don't strike me as particularly Herathian. > IMO, life-shaping seems perfectly suited to Emerond. Well, perhaps (if I find the time, that is) I will try to propose an adaptation. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:33:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:06 AM 11/27/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> I was just going to let this one go, but I feel the need to make some > minor clarifications about my position, in contrast to how it's being > represented in this post. << > >I don't remember mentioning you in that post. Were you the one who >compared the leading Traladaran families to mafiosi by way of justifying >Stefan's actions towards them? I admit I don't remember. Uh, not quite. I do remember noting that it said the major Traladaran families took the opportunity of the transition to stage a coup, and saying it wasn't bad for Stefan to put down that rebellion. Come to think of it, I think I did sarcastically say "can you say Godfather?" However, given that half of the described families actually /are/ the mafia and that the other has a network of people from the underside of the city working for them (beggars for Torenescu), it's not a huge stretch. Not that I'm calling the Torenescus mafia, either. Don't get that idea. I was just saying that the uprising wasn't necessarily in the people's interest nor a grass-roots movement. > >> [Snipped examples of Thyatians demonising others for selfish purposes, > and the accusation of me or others doing such in "defending" Stefan.] << > >Interesting observation is that the denegration of Traladaran leaders >always seemed to be raised in response to a criticism of Stefan's actions >in that regard, as if by way of justifying (defending) his actions. E.G., let's be fair. Some of the families /are/ mafia. And even the ones that aren't were being opportunistic and self-serving in attempting a coup at that time. That's not denigration or defamation. That's calling a spade a spade. > >> The "civilizing outsider" (Stefan) is really just doing what the > Thyatians should have been doing all along to help the Traladarans > technologically and infrastructurally, anyway. That is, it's what they > would have been doing while in charge, if they had actually given a > tinker's cuss about the Traladarans, beyond securing a border. << > >Now you're (deliberately?) mischaracterizing what happened when the >Thyatians were in control. Not deliberately. BTW: Thank you for correcting me. >Specularuam/Marilenev grew from a small burg to a decent sized city. >Trade was fostered and expanded, because of the safety that was >(supposedly) provided Excellent points! >(I'm sure Jenn and others can say how such "safety" of the Thyatian >protectorate itself wasn't nessissary). There's not much evidence either way, really. It could well be that the coastal communities didn't need the Thyatian "protection." The interior communities seem to be another matter, though ... . >Indeed, if you look at developments as described, under the Thyatian >regime things were already on the path certain folks *claim* that Stefan >is solely responsible for creating (I.E. the fostering of growth of >cities, trade, security, etc.) No, I'm not saying he's solely responsible for the idea. Only, that he bothered to extend these things to areas that the Thyatians didn't really care about, and where it is implied in the Gaz that it was more dangerous to do so, namely the dark, forbidding interior of the country. Settlements didn't expand in the interior like Specularum did until Stefan made it possible. >- one big difference during the Thyatian Protectorate era, though: The >Thyatians didn't tinker with Traladaran culture & customs like they were >some sort of scupture to be molded. They left them alone to that degree. You imply that the Duke tinkered with the Traladaran culture and customs, and I don't think he did. Their church was left alone and intact, and there is no state religion. There is a healthy cross-pollination of cultures, but Traladarans are not eclipsed by the Thyatian culture. If anything, the Gaz shows Thyatians being influenced by the Traladaran national character - adopting the Traladaran Shearing Ceremony, for example. Also, in The National Spirit on page 6 of the Gazetteer, it says Thyatians born in Karameikos are infected with Traladaran philosophy. >Indeed, if one reads the materiel, one notices that the things that folks >are ascribing as benifits brought to the region by Stefan were already >occuring during the Thyatian Protectorate. Not everywhere, as I note above. >And, I'd be remiss to not point out that the "darkness" was lifting even >BEFORE the Thyatians came (indeed, their reason for coming, like Stefan's, >wasn't some altruistic enterprise to "uplift" the backward locals - >politics was involved. In one case, the political ambitions of one man. In >the other, power politics to gain control over the rising region before >someone else did or a hostile indigenous power did). All good points. However, the interior remained a forbidding place. It says in the text that the "backwoods towns were often terrorized by one type of monster or another." We can also note that the tribes of humanoids don't reach the coast, so didn't pose the same threat there as they do to interior communities. >Traladara was already developing on its own before the Thyatians took control. But, not much in the interior. Communities remained small, there. >Trade, security, and cities were already being fostered and growing during >the Thyatian Protectorate era. I'm not sure anyone can prove one way or >another whether things improved faster than they would have under Stefan. >But one thing is indisputable: Stefan, unlike the earlier Thyatians, >attempted wholesale changes in Traladaran custom, which were not always >welcomed by the locals. What wholesale changes in custom? No-one said, "This is how you have to think and act, now." He brought his "Church of Me," as you call it, but no-one's required to follow it. >And Stefan, unlike the Thyatians (under whom the City of Specularuam grew >6000% - under Stefan it's grown "only" 233%), I'm very interested in where you get these figures. I have the PWAs, but I'm not at liberty to just leaf through them -- I promised my wife WotI would be /her/ campaign, so I am purposefully as ignorant as possible about that era of events. In answer, I note that the Thyatians ruled the place for 70 years, while Stefan has been there for only 30 years. I haven't done the math to figure out what annual growth each of those would imply, but if you compare compound growth figures of something (investments, population, whatever) over a 30 year period vs. over a 70 year period, the difference is bound to be far from linear. In other words, this is hardly evidence he was doing a bad job, or a worse job. (I'm too lazy to get out a calculator to actually figure it out, and I don't have your figures to refer to, anyway. I hope you can let me know them, especially if this is an important point for you to make.) I also wonder if you're counting the growth of the other cities. Kelvin grew from nothing to 5000. Threshold grew to 5000 from less than 750 people. (I'm inferring the original size of Threshold using the section Smaller Villages and Homesteads, on page 6 of the Gaz.) >unleashed a plague of locust-like grasping men upon the Traladarans, his >men siezed their lands (did that improve the security of the Traladarans?) Locust-like? That sounds like uncountable numbers. I'm not sure how many Thyatians came with Karameikos, but the Thyatian intruders that seized lands were definitely in the minority. So much in the minority that it was worth considering practically eliminating taxes for those Traladarans that were economically injured by such actions, for a period of several years. Contrast this with the fact that lowering taxes (not loads, necessarily, either) for all of the Traladaran merchant families was unthinkable because it would cripple the Karameikan economy. (See Davinos' Complaint, pg 17.) > >> These same leaders seemed content enough for SEVENTY YEARS under > Thyatian rule, presumably because their power structure was left > unchanged. So, there was no reason for them to necessarily think another > Thyatian ruler (Stefan Karameikos) would be worse or better. << > >Except that he comes in and makes his anouncement (as stated in the Gaz.) >Just what did he say? As you say, they didn't revolt under previous >Thyatian governors. So what did Stefan do to make them change their minds? >Did he, in his exuberance, let them know his plans for shaping and molding >their nation in his image? I can imagine they'd be fit to be tied, and >would certainly see that as a change from previous Thyatian apointees, >which they didn't revolt against. Well, we don't know exactly what Stefan said, but I doubt it was incendiary. In Settling the Duchy (pg 13) it says simply that he announced his agreement with the Emperor to the city leaders. In the line following, it says, "The powerful Traladaran families in Specularum saw the political change as an opportunity to reestablish Traladaran independence." That doesn't sound like it was personal against Stefan, but simply being opportunistic. Nor does it seem like there was some fear of cultural eclipse. To them at the time, he was just another Thyatian, that they perhaps disliked on principle. > >> But the noted Traladaran leaders /did/ see it as an opportunity to > seize more power. << > >Power that Stefan possibly threatened to take anyhow, with his anouncement. It's possible the families did feel so threatened, but it seems unlikely he actually threatened them or even implied it, except by being an unknown quantity. Estate holders kept their estates -- even rebels like the Marilenev clan kept their estates. >They hadn't been disturbed by previous Thyatian apointees, but here comes >this new guy, his head filled with all sorts of threatening notions about >remodeling their way of life. Increased trade was one thing, one could see >them thinking - after all, they benifit from that. But now some foreign >overlord wants them to change their customs to fit his desires. . .very >different. Very different, indeed. It's also an unsupported argument. (At least, so far.) See above. - Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:50:13 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: A Different Take on Stefan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:19 PM 11/26/00 -0600, you wrote: >On 11/25/00 12:20 AM, mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK wrote: > > > Actually, it works for pre-WotI too. Although Stefan had cordial > > relations/alliances with the nations that surrounded him, to trust them not > > to invade his country while he stripped his defences down to forcefully > > remove the Black Baron would have been foolish, if not suicidal. Even his > > "ally" at the time, Thyatis, could not be trusted (as everyone that has > > anything from a passing familiarity with Thyatian politics could easily > > understand). > >But my point here was in reply to those who have opined here that before >Stefan broke with Thyatis (justified or not), he and Thincol were the best >of friends, or at least allies. If he were there with Thyatian approval, and >the Emperor was his ally, and he had not "betrayed" Thincol, why in the >world would Thyatis invade if Stefan moved his troops a little farther west >to whoop butt on his cousin? Technically, as (before independence) Stefan >was a vassal of Thincol, and Ludwig a vassal of Stefan, Thincol had a vested >interest in Stefan taking out an unruly vassal. > >"Because Thyatians are treacherous and evil" is not a viable answer. A civil war off his western border might be reason enough to move back in. The whole point in taking Traladara in the first place was to prevent such potential unrest, and we know from the description of Thincol that he is utterly ruthless, so there's no reason to think he might "rescue" his friend and then say, "You know, this was a bad idea. I'm taking the territory back." Even if he gets Machetos back in compensation he's been screwed over in the deal. So, pulling troops off his eastern border to conduct a civil war is not wise. Moreover, that doesn't even necessarily guarantee he'd win. It says in The Black Eagle Banner (pg 64) that the forces of the Duke and the Baron are equal (excluding PCs), and no sane military commander commits to battle without an advantage (numerical or otherwise) unless he doesn't have a choice. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:02:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable jason o'brien wrote: > if i'm not very much mistaken wasn't there an adventure hook in gaz1 = that > had something along these lines. i think it said halavs tomb was = beneath > keilvin. I think you're referring to 'the Discovery of Lavv' adventure hook. It = isn't about Halav's tomb, but where he lived (Lavv). And, yes, it lies = beneath Kelvin. It would be a perfect adventure involving Igor, though. On another note, we (the DMs) know that Halav was raised and attained = Immortality, but Igor doesn't (neither does the rest of Karameikos for = that matter, though the CoT believes it), and so believes that his = body/ashes lies somewhere in Karameikos. Even the CoT might believe = that, since they have no idea what happens to the body, when you = transcend to Immortality. Also, Halav might actually have planted a = false body/ashes (perhaps an avatar) somewhere in Karameikos for his own = purposes (similar to Denwarf). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:48:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" vs. Evaluatory Judgement. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jennifer Guerra wrote: > In regards to contacting Aaron, I've had two "yes" responses and three = "no > responses (one was phrased in a not-so-nice way:( So, unless anyone = else > has an opinion on the matter, I'll consider that the "nays" have it. I don't think you should contact Aaron. If there's one thing I remember = about your interview with him, it was that replies on specific issues, = tended to be along the lines of "...it was long ago, and I can't be = sure, now...". A very reasonable attitude to something that was written = many years ago. I don't think there's any reason to bother him with this = question. Unless you do a whole new interview for the next issue of ToM, = of course, then it could be slipped in. ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:56:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Carnifex? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001126205717.007a9420@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > I've heard him (it?) mentioned before, but I know nothing > about who or what Carnifex is. Anyone care to enlighten me and point > me towards any canon materials? They are from one of the Master-level modules. Apparently, they were a race of dinosauresque humanoids belonging to an ancient civilization on Mystara. However, they became so powerful that the Immortals bannished them to a prison dimension, where they are plotting to get back to Prime Material. I've seen them described as intelligent Velicoraptors with magical powers. Further non canon material seems to imply a connection between them and the Outer Beings, but I'm no expert on this field. MA1016 had a plot line involving the Shadow Lords attempt to bring the Carnifex back to Mystara. Intriguing, eh? :) H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 05:08:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Carnifex? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001126205717.007a9420@10.1.1.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:57 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote: > I've heard him (it?) mentioned before, but I know nothing about who or >what Carnifex is. Anyone care to enlighten me and point me towards any >canon materials? The only canon material dealing with the Carnifex is the module M3: Twilight Calling, which introduces the creatures. The Carnifex are a powerful, magic using race of Lizardmen that became so powerful (in the dawn of time, long before the rise of humans) that they challenged the Immortals themselves, and were locked away from contact with all creatures in a distant prison dimension. Unfortunately, the module doesn't give a creature entry (the module is pretty bleah- seemed rushed, like they needed to get it out so fast they couldn't complete it), though it does have brief captions on the Carnifex (the sort of entry you'd get in an encounter listing). Basically, they were just high level wizards, clerics, fighters, and thieves. They're tall, IIRC, like 7 feet or so, and saurian. For more on the Carnifex, there's a whole slew of non-canon info on the website, mostly done by Geoff Gander, He Who Must Be Obeyed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:29:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Traladaran Wizards In-Reply-To: <007c01c05861$b0d82080$81ca61d4@skytte>; from scythe@WANADOO.DK on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 12:02:52PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 12:02:52PM +0100, Jacob Skytte wrote: > > On another note, we (the DMs) know that Halav was raised and attained > Immortality, but Igor doesn't (neither does the rest of Karameikos for > that matter, though the CoT believes it), and so believes that his > body/ashes lies somewhere in Karameikos. They still could, according to WotI the mortal body is left behind when someone becomes immortal. It can't be raised, but it's still there - although immortals routinely disintigrate their remains upon leaving the Prime plane... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DeAnna Ferguson Subject: Re: Ierendi and Freeport? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Has anyone picked up the "Death in Freeport" D20 module? How well could it >work with Ierendi or Minrothad? I like the idea of a swashbuckling city, >and that would be my preference on how to serious-up Ierendi, but since my >games aren't set there yet, I'm not in a hurry to spend yet more RPG money >(just bought the Star Wars D20 game) on something that won't fit my purposes. >So, anyone picked it up? ***SPOILER ALERT**** I have it. I enjoyed reading it, but there's a lot of history you'd have to "clean" up or ignore to make it fit. Some of it is just name changes, but parts about the lighthouse and the serpent people living under the city would have to be modified. It's been a while since I've read the Ierendi or the Minrothad gaz's, so I'm not sure what would need to be changed specifically. Still, for the $7 you pay at a discount place, it's a good buy. DeAnna ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:21:20 -0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Anondson wrote: > > >From my understanding, gaucho has also been the term for cattle rustlers of > the Argentine Pampas who were very adept with the bolas (I didn't know they > also were in Brazil too). I have also heard "gaucho" used by mexicans to > refer to the American cowboy seen in Hollywood western movies. Thus the > Gaucho character kit of the Savage Coast setting was a blend of the gaucho > of the Pampas and the American gunslinging cowboy of the Wild West. Brazil's southernmost state - Rio Grande do Sul, "Southern Big River" - is much ilke Argentina. It's just a line drawn on the maps... people at their pampa and ours.. clothing, cattling, behaviour.. much the same. I'm curious: where have they appeared in D&D? Svage Coast? D&D 3rd ed? I had no idea! > > PS: They live on barbecues made in side huge holes in the ground: > > "entire cowns" (got with their lassos) staked and cooked for a whole > > day... > > If I remember they also ate the entire meal only using a big knife. > Eric Anondson Yes, they use broad swords that they *insist* they will call the "knives"... :-) They share the boiling hot tea drinking all from the same Silver pot and telling stories around the fire. There are some epic books covering their feats. One is about a black - slave - boy who died and came back as an angel, a spirit of the pampas. A "pampa" is a savana. THAT savana, I mean, not any. Cheers. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:45:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > Also, Thyatis taxed all trades in Specularum (the only city it seems) which > then left Traladara so another benefit to all people would be their economy > wasn't slowly being drained. > Are you trying to say that Stefan isn't collecting taxes (and not in just Specularum)? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:02:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derek Adam wrote: > > The more I read, the more I see that there are some very good explanations > within canon that support Stefan being good. I pointed out recently that > Stefan's out-right attacking the Black Eagle Barony is likely to result in > the wholesale massacre of the Traladaran population, b/c Ludwig keeps > hostages from every single family in his barony for just such deterrent > purposes. Recklessly risking the hostages lives would be very, very > questionable. We can all agree he didn't do that! =;) > However, he did let the hin attack the Black Eagle in AC 1010 (IIRC). No mention was made in the sources about the hostages, so we don't know their fate, but it seems Stefan wasn't too concerned about them (although granted, this could be just an oversight on the author's part). -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:14:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Stefan & "author intent" ,if asking a question what should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Furneaux wrote: > > p.s. I'm not sure I want a straight what alignment > should stefan be question, but I havn't qiven enough > thought to the matter to say what it could be yet. Any > ideas? > Well, one of the most important questions would probably be this: Did Stefan do the various "possibly not so good" things that he did (appointing and not removing Black Eagle, suppressing Traladaran rebellion, allowing Thyatians to grab lands, breaking the treaty with Thyatis) because he was uninformed/unknowing/had good intentions, or was he completely aware of the implications but did those things simply because it was to his/his country's benefit at the time, and therefore in his opinion the right thing to do? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A228190.6129D7F5@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Solmyr writes: > "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > > > Also, Thyatis taxed all trades in Specularum (the only city it seems) which > > then left Traladara so another benefit to all people would be their economy > > wasn't slowly being drained. > > > Are you trying to say that Stefan isn't collecting taxes (and not in > just Specularum)? IIRC (canon at home) there are taxes of some sort, but it's not a per-trade tax (I think it's annual or something). Per-trade tends to tax the same money multiple times. The current taxes are also spent in Karameikos, rather than going out of the country, so it probably has a more beneficial effect than before. Considering that current taxes are paying for road improvements, defence, etc; and Karameikans are being paid to do this work... at least, that's how the debate on taxes goes in the real world. -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! Learn from other people's mistakes, you don't have time to make your own. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:56:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Nightmare Project Site Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Dark Portal, the Nightmare's Project (aka Gander, Theisen & Caroletti) Home Page has been updated. Nothing really interesting, just the "Psikrows" article that appeared on the last issue of the Tome. If you missed it, or if you are interested in Outer Beings et al, take a look at www.geocities.com/iuliusscaevola/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara >> However, given that half of the described families actually /are/ the mafia and that the other has a network of people from the underside of the city working for them (beggars for Torenescu), it's not a huge stretch. << Well, as Eugen Weber has said, midieval lords were basically in the protection racket business, and one might point out that, for example, Stefan himself benifits from a network of informants &tc. (controlled by Olivia), and that one of his sons is a Thief. Does that mean thats enough to say they're bad and the Traladaran families good? Probably not. But in some cases there is a "distinction without a difference" - Traladarans would be justified in seeing Stefan and his "ruthless men" land-stealers as a criminal enterprise. >> E.G., let's be fair. Some of the families /are/ mafia. And even the ones that aren't were being opportunistic and self-serving in attempting a coup at that time. That's not denigration or defamation. That's calling a spade a spade. << And Stefan is opportunistic and self-serving in his ambitions; that's also calling a spade a spade. And is indeed no small part of my point (I.E. that I don't think he's better behaved & motivated than the alternatives). >> Not deliberately. BTW: Thank you for correcting me. << Ok, no prob. >(I'm sure Jenn and others can say how such "safety" of the Thyatian >protectorate itself wasn't nessissary). >> There's not much evidence either way, really. It could well be that the coastal communities didn't need the Thyatian "protection." The interior communities seem to be another matter, though ... .<< Well, there is the statement in the Gaz about Traladara's development on its own (pp.3-4 and p.13), and the possibility of it uniting under a "powerful leader" (p.4), which is expanded in K:KoA to this interesting statement: "Had the Traladarans been left to their own devises, the various clans most likely would have united into a single council (similar to Glantri's principalities) dominated by a strong leader, possibly a member of the powerful Marilenev Clan." (K:KoA, p.18), which IMO shows that they didn't *need* either the Thyatians *or* Stefan to forge them into a nation, they were heading in that direction anyhow. The aspects would have been different under self-determination, but that's partly the point: >> Settlements didn't expand in the interior like Specularum did until Stefan made it possible. << See, I'm not so sure that it was Stefan who made it possible; a Traladaran council/government would probably have achieved similar results, and another generation or so of Thyatian rule might have as well (point being that the "darkness" was gradually lifting under both, accelerated under the Thyatians due to increased interest - expanding trade requiring security of trade routes in either case), Thincol made the trade with Stefan because it would have taken more time and effort than he had at the time (due to the pressing need of restoring the Empire's military strength), "time" being 30-40 years perhaps (interestingly, same as Stefan) - and the Traladarans themselves, largely unfettered under the Thyatian Protectorate, were, IMO, able to achieve these things on their own initiative as well (I don't see them as nesssisarily passively awaiting an outside savior, for instance, to direct them). >> You imply that the Duke tinkered with the Traladaran culture and customs, and I don't think he did. Their church was left alone and intact, and there is no state religion. << Their church was kind of sidelined, IMO that's pretty clear. Stefan's intention (his goal of "shaping and molding" the area in "his" image - not in their own image) certainly shows an inclination to tinker with their culture/civilization. The "New Karameikans" concept shows that as well. Did he succeed in all respects? No, not nessissarily, because as it turned out the Traladarans weren't impassive empty-vessels, guys like Aleksyev Nikelnevich's efforts to "peacabl[ly] assimila[te]...the Thyatian population into the Traladaran" having some effect (note also his determination "that Traladaran blood rule over Traladara again.") (see Gaz1 p.51 and K:KoA pp.70-71 for Aleksyev description) >> If anything, the Gaz shows Thyatians being influenced by the Traladaran national character - adopting the Traladaran Shearing Ceremony, for example. << Well, OtoH, I also think that the Shearing Ceremony isn't all that much different than the Thyatian custom of "running away from home" in many respects (it's more formalized in Traladara, though). >> Also, in The National Spirit on page 6 of the Gazetteer, it says Thyatians born in Karameikos are infected with Traladaran philosophy. << Dudes like Aleksyev having a subtle effect. 8-) >> All good points. However, the interior remained a forbidding place. << As it remained for much of Stefan's rule. The point being, or at least the point I'm making, is that the trend over time was in the direction of greater security, trade, and settlement even before Stefan arrived, and it's, IMO, difficult to say he did better than a indiginous Traladaran government (see above) or more time under Thyatis would have, especially if some of his "mistakes" are taken into consideration (Halag probably would have been a thriving city rather than a dark, despoiled, town struggling to recover if it wasn't for Stefan appointing Ludwig to rule it for so long. It might have been at least as large and thriving as Kelvin). >> And Stefan, unlike the Thyatians (under whom the City of Specularuam grew 6000% - under Stefan it's grown "only" 233%), << >> I'm very interested in where you get these figures. << Actually, I am, too. 8-)~ I'm pretty sure I read *somewhere* that Specularuam had a population of around 30,000 in AC 970 when Stefan took over, but now I can't find where I read it. In any case, IMO it sounds like a reasonable figure, because I *have* found where it says that Specularuam was *already* outgrowing its old walls when Stefan arrived (p.36 in Gaz1, under "Duke's Wall", and p.40 in K:KoA for the same statement). Like I said, I think I read that 30,000 in AC 970 figure somewhere, but I can't find it now. Still, it seems like a good guess (if even somewhat of a "lowball" number), considering that the circumference of the Duke's/King's wall isn't *that* much larger than that of the Old Wall, there is still plenty of vacant land in it, for the city of 50,000+/70,000. >> In answer, I note that the Thyatians ruled the place for 70 years, while Stefan has been there for only 30 years. << My point point is, growth was occuring, development of cities & trade, before Stefan, and it wasn't insignificant growth. >> I also wonder if you're counting the growth of the other cities. Kelvin grew from nothing to 5000. Threshold grew to 5000 from less than 750 people. (I'm inferring the original size of Threshold using the section Smaller Villages and Homesteads, on page 6 of the Gaz.) << And Halag & Luln got the gaspipe. I'd call the record "mixed". Btw, trade in the interior was occuring before even Stefan *OR* the Thyatians came (the annual Gnome Caravan is mentioned as starting before either arrived), so the interior wasn't all a empty or dark region even then. Again, the light quite likely was spreading outwards without the need for Stefan. >>unleashed a plague of locust-like grasping men upon the Traladarans, his men siezed their lands (did that improve the security of the Traladarans?) << >> Locust-like? That sounds like uncountable numbers. << Yah, I phrased it that way as a change of pace from the "many of the Thyatian settlers who poured into the country, swearing loyalty to Duke Stefan and receiving land grants, were ruthless men who literally stole lands from the Traladarans living upon them." - "many" doesn't sound like it was an isolated occurance, and this kind of thing didn't seem to have occured under the Thyatian governors before (as it says in the Gaz, "Trade went on, the wealthy families of Specularuam retained their properties, and there were no oppressive cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion." (none of these "ruthless men" unleashed on the unsuspecting population, no cruel cousins), trade boomed and the locals prospered more, no grasping men stealing lands and no ambitious people who's goal was to mold the people in his own image. Doesn't sound that bad to me. >> Well, we don't know exactly what Stefan said, but I doubt it was incendiary. << Well, the revolt occured after his anouncement. Doesn't sound like he just made the usual statement (which never sparked any revolt). >> In the line following, it says, "The powerful Traladaran families in Specularum saw the political change as an opportunity to reestablish Traladaran independence." << Yes, but my point being: why then? If things were just going swimmingly and Stefan didn't say anything that would disturb them, why the sudden change in attitude? 70 years of calm. Stefan arrives. Immediate revolt. >> But now some foreign overlord wants them to change their customs to fit his desires. . .very different. << >> Very different, indeed. It's also an unsupported argument. (At least, so far.) << It seems Stefan's ambitions and his reasons for wanting Traladara are forgotten: remember, it was so he could have a place to shape and mold in his own image. Sounds like a goal of imposing his desires and vision over their customs to me. That's how I see it, anyhow, especially when combined with remarks about the "New Karameikans" et al. and the general undercurrent in Stefan's outlook. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:25:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...> there and had to start from scratch. then when i finally get it all compiled > in word and about to convert it to pdf someone beats me to it. > damnable immortals always interfering with the plans of us glantrian mages > :) > > mortus. > Mortus? Never heard. Someone important? Nope. Just another of those dabblers, who never made the test. So a wizard without any special abilities: Int about 13 perhaps, St below normal and supposedly with two left hands. Boy, you must live a hard life in Glantri :) At least your story sounds like that :)) bye! Daniel aka Laren Nightmaster ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:23:58 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Fw: [MYSTARA] pbem pointers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is a resend, i am now back and would appreciate any help. mail me off list if you wish at jobo@eircom.net mortus. ----- Original Message ----- From: jason o'brien To: Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 5:57 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] pbem pointers > Hi guys, > I need some help. > a player of mine has moved to another town and has asked me to continue the > campaign by email with him. > he is currently questing for immortallity so running this as a solo campiagn > is no problem running it over the email isa completely new scene for me so > any pointers as to how to go about this would be much apreciated. > i will be away for the next couple of weeks, so i will read any replies when > i get back. > thanks in advance. > > mortus. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:36:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany >> IIRC (canon at home) there are taxes of some sort, but it's not a per-trade tax (I think it's annual or something). << There was a tax on trade (probably tarrifs or duties), but contrary to assertions that the Traladaran's were being "drained" by it, they were benifiting overall, (as it says, "The traders suffered a Thyatian tax, but the greater Thyatian interest in Traladara meant that trade boomed and they profited more anyway." And in the DM's section it says "there were no oppressive cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion"). The taxes collected probably were sufficient just to fund the Thyatian garrisson & administration in Traladara. If it had been "profitable" (money going from Traladara to Thyatis in any real sum), then Thincol wouldn't have wanted to trade the area away (why lose the income source if it's generating large sums for the Thyatian treasury?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:24:15 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A228190.6129D7F5@kolumbus.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Solmyr : > "Timothy R. Haney" wrote: > > > > Also, Thyatis taxed all trades in Specularum (the only city it seems) > > which then left Traladara so another benefit to all people would be their > > economy wasn't slowly being drained. > > > Are you trying to say that Stefan isn't collecting taxes (and not in > just Specularum)? What he seems to be saying is that Thyatian taxes left the country, but Karameikan taxes don't. Assuming that's true, there's a net benefit to the country to having Stefan as ruler rather than the Thyatians. In a later post, James (a.k.a. Evil Genius) asserts (with evidence) that Thyatian taxes didn't harm Traladarans more than they helped, so there was a net benefit of Thyatian rule. He goes on to say that we have no evidence the Thyatian taxes left the country, and that it makes sense that taxes didn't, otherwise Thincol might have just used the revenue instead of trading it for Machetos. That's a reasonable argument, although it's also reasonable that Thincol was just looking at expediency -- steady income /might/ not have been enough for him to solve his problems, whereas a quick infusion of cash from Machetos might have been just what he needed. So, if the taxes /were/ leaving the area, having Stefan keep tax spending locally was a benefit to Traladarans *even more than* over Thyatian rule. If the taxes weren't previously leaving the country, it seems supported that the taxes were *not* harming Traladarans, b/c the trade interest in the area generated by stable rule benefitted Traladarans. -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:28:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf In-Reply-To: <20001123111205.20768.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Herve Musseau wrote: > Okay, well that's done, all three of them (1014, 1015, 1016) are now available > at the usual place (http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/) in PDF. For some reason > I have trouble accessing the 1016 file, but it ain't my fault. > Shawn if you want a copy for the official Mystara site and can't access the > online version, ask me. This still aint working. Are anybody gonna fix it? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Carnifex? Beau wrote: > I've heard him (it?) mentioned before, but I know nothing about who or >what Carnifex is. Anyone care to enlighten me and point me towards any >canon materials? The only "canon" source discussing the Carnifex at length is module M3 (Twilight Calling) - even then, it provides next to no physical description of them, and nothing about their origins or culture (only that they arose on Mystara ages ago, challenged the Immortals, and were cast into the Pits of Banishment - gripping stuff, IMO). The more substantive work concerning this reptillian race has all been done on the MML and the MMB. Below is a list of things interested people might wish to read: 1. Sharon Dornhoff's "Hollow Moon" series - discusses the Ur-Carnifex, and many elements of fan-generated Mystaran prehistory. 2. Shane Henry's historical cycles document - ties in some of the existing Carnifex literature, and develops an overarching theory to put it all into perspective concerning Mystaran history overall. 3. The Selhomarr Gazetteer - maybe a bit of shameless self-promotion, but my work on Y'hog, Lhomarr, and some tie-ins with the "Greater Carnifex" (what we subsequently labelled the Carnifex protrayed in M3) puts the Carnifex idea into a contemporary Mystaran perspective. 4. James Mischler's Dimension of Nightmares document - another interpretation of the Carnifex role in history. 5. Fortress of Ye'eengh - by Guilio Caroletti, more info on the Carnifex, and how they interact with the Nightmare Dimension, among other things. 6. Anything Outer Being-related - most have some ties with the Carnifex at some level, due to the mythology we concocted. Note that all of these things are found on Shawn's site, typing "carnifex" into the search engine there brought them all up. There are also numerous other documents which mention ties to the Carnifex in one way or another, but to my knowledge reading the above will provide you with everything you need to know from a campaigning perspective. All IMO, of course. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:35:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: canon cosistancy+stefan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > My personal preference is to strive for perfect > consistency, which means > keeping whatever alignment is listed, so long as it > is at all reasonable to > do so. (People are still welcome to try to convince > me it /is/ > unreasonable, of course.) Jenn might not like that, > because it is really > very uncreative, but my motivation is not to be > against creativity. I just > want to ensure that I can use published products > with minimal changes or > worrying about what inconsistencies I might be > introducing when I try to > rewrite it. I agree with this entirely. I also think Jenn's opinions are fine because they propose variations from canon, not changes to the way we "must" see it, as some people seemed to be proposing. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:48:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Origin of the Minotaurs The history of Nimmur before the coming of the menscorpion presents an event that all enduks remember with shame: it is the death of their father and protector, the shedu Gildesh. The common belief is that an enduk called Minoides killed Gildesh in order to take its place on the throne, but, due to this, he was punished by the Immortals and lost his wings, and so did all his followers: they were exiled and were the ancestors of all minotaurs of Mystara. However, this is only partly true: while the enduks of Nimmur were a happy people under Gildesh�s rule, some of them had begun to show a genetic mutation: one every twenty child approximately was born without wings. The wingless enduks were not objects of hatred or intolerance, nor scorn: they were considered equal in rights to all other enduks. A thing that encouraged this behavior by winged enduks was also the fact that never was the offspring of a Wingless (even of two Wingless) a Wingless, but they always bore a True Enduk. But as the centuries passed, their number constantly increased, until there was one Wingless for every four or five True Enduk. Social tensions erupted soon when, all of a sudden, the Wingless begun to breed true. Wingless were always the offspring of Wingless. The leader of the Wingless was a powerful enduk named Minoides. He asked several times for auditions with Gildesh. He was intending to offer suggestions to save both species, finding some compromise, maybe dividing the country in two. However, although Gildesh did never know it, Gildesh�s advisors and counselors refused him access to the supra-natural enduk ruler. Mocking the wingless enduk, they played with his feelings, forcing him to wait forever in the halls of Gildesh�s palace, and then telling him that the enduk�s king hadn�t time to waste for such an inferior being. In the end, Minoides became furious, and he and his lieutenant Eritteus conceived a devious plot to kill Gildesh. It is not known how exactly they managed to murder the nearly-Immortal king, but in the end, their purpose was reached. But after the death of Gildesh, Ixion's wrath stroke hard against the Wingless and the Winged alike, against all those who had furthered Gildesh�s death. Firstly, the Immortal changed all the enduks who had mocked Minoides into Wingless. Then, he made the air magically poisonous to all Wingless. He didn�t care what they did thereafter, but in this way, the uncompromising Immortal was sure to purge his follower�s kingdom of all that was impure. The Wingless decided to flee a kingdom that had become uninhabitable to them. The now poisonous atmosphere of the area moved them first westward, until they reached the sea. Determined to set too much distance as possible from the hated shores of the Enduk kingdom, Minoides decided to start a completely new life and crossed the sea toward Skothar, while Eritteus traveled northwards in the hope of finding a friendly land to settle in, not daring to cross the mysterious western ocean. Eritteus' group would eventually give birth to the degenerated minotaurs known as Bargha [see Creature Catalogue or MC-Mystara]. Minoides reached Skothar, and one by one, small groups of Wingless, that from his name would become known by the humans as "minotaurs ", left him to settle down in the new lands they encountered, while Minoides still moved on toward the west, searching for a sign from a friendly Immortal that could lead his path. Finally, his pleads were heard in Minaea, by the Immortal Poseidon (= Protius), where he built the city of Erech (1�699 BC). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:44:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <3A228190.6129D7F5@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/27/00 09:45 AM, Solmyr wrote: >Are you trying to say that Stefan isn't collecting taxes (and not in >just Specularum)? No. That taxes are being collected but staying in the Karameikan economy. Before, they were collected and shipped out. One of the reasons the infrastructure through the interior didn't seem to exist until Stefan came. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:48:05 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Timothy R. Haney" Subject: Re: Stefan: thoughts on his tyrrany In-Reply-To: <975349455.3a22a6cf5eb5f@members.uniserve.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11/27/00 12:24 PM, Wizards Shopper wrote: >So, if the taxes /were/ leaving the area, having Stefan keep tax spending >locally was a benefit to Traladarans *even more than* over Thyatian rule. If >the taxes weren't previously leaving the country, it seems supported that the >taxes were *not* harming Traladarans, b/c the trade interest in the area >generated by stable rule benefitted Traladarans. Well, I'm wondering if taxes didn't leave the country, where did they go? For example, it's mentioned that Stefan built roads and seems reasonable that if they mention roads being built, there must not have been roads there before. That's one thing taxes usually go for. Then we consider the reason Thincol agreed to sell Traladara and might conclude in order for him to make Traladara as profitable as possible, he'd have to spend money. That seems to point to taxes leaving the country since he didn't look to be improving the country as taxes could have paid for that as they did with Stefan. Taxing all trade (barter trade too?) generates a good bit of money when its on the only city and seaport in the nation. -Tim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:58:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Update: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > > I'm curious: where have they appeared in D&D? Svage Coast? D&D 3rd ed? I > had no idea! Savage Coast, in the nations of Guadalante and Cimarron, mainly. (Though Cimarron has a "far west" feel, and its gauchos are more similar to cowboys from western movies) There are gauchos in other Savage Baronies too, mainly Saragon and Gargo�a. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:38:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > Origin of the Minotaurs Interesting. The weird thing is that another Minotaur history by an Italian author appeared on the MMB a little time ago :) Perhaps you could crosspost this to the MMB, so that we can hear from him! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:45:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > Origin of the Minotaurs > > Eritteus' group would eventually give birth to the > degenerated minotaurs known as Bargha [see Creature Catalogue or > MC-Mystara]. Where do these critters dwell now? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:12:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: ... and Back Again! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Still, I'm happy to be back, and I'm sure You've all missed me immensely! :) > > - The Stalker, returned from the planes... > Yeah. Another 600+1 mail that has been created by one of the evil alphatians... :) Sent to trash imideately :)) But I�m happy to have another smart tongue-fencing-capable mage in the list again ;) Laren Nightmaster (Seems a nice idea to take over the brain-killing roleplaying-PC�s identity :)) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Carnifex? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I've heard him (it?) mentioned before, but > I know nothing about who or > >what Carnifex is. Anyone care to enlighten me and > point me towards any > >canon materials? > > The only "canon" source discussing the Carnifex at > length is module M3 > (Twilight Calling) - even then, it provides next to > no physical > description of them, and nothing about their origins > or culture (only that > they arose on Mystara ages ago, challenged the > Immortals, and were cast > into the Pits of Banishment - gripping stuff, IMO). Any relation to the reptilian creatures in X1: isle of dread? (the ones in the temple's mud pools) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:12:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Carnifex? In-Reply-To: <20001128015403.21550.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:54 PM 11/27/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Any relation to the reptilian creatures in X1: isle of >dread? (the ones in the temple's mud pools) You mean the Kopru? Yes- as Geoff had it at one point, the Kopru were a servitor race created by the Carnifex that later came into their own. In a project I've been working on, dealing with the Kopru Chronarchy, the Kopru were a race related to the Carnifex- where the Carnifex left the oceans to live on land, the Kopru maintained an amphibious lifestyle. The Carnifex developed greater intelligence over time, and mastery of magicks, while the Kopru stayed at a more basic level of sentience. When the Carnifex began experimenting on other races and creating servitors (the Troglodytes, the Sis'thek) they were working with non-sentient races. Then they opted to attempt their experiments with sentient races (their distant "cousins" the Kopru) and the result was the Kopru as we know them now- a vastly intelligent, potentially psionic (for those of you not wholly opposed to psionics) or at least gifted with mental powers, race. The Kopru then sort of surpassed their brethren in some ways, and abandoned the Y'hog Carnifex to their fates. (note that the Carnifex I refer to here are the "lesser" Y'hog Carnifex, and not the Greater Carnifex that were locked away from the multiverse). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:10:14 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: references on stefan (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought these quotes would promote discussion, I felt that the traldara issue was getting a lot of light, so I thought I'd find quotes that could create so other interesting perspectives. I intend to write some interesting ideas based on these but I thought cause I've typed them I'd post 'em so others could contemplate them. Chris. Pg 176 pwa 2 Nuwmont 5 AC1011: the black eagle is captured however they "continue to beseige fort doom itself" "many of the barony's humanoids have chosen to fight to the death rather then abandon their home. pwa2 pg178 Nuwmont 18: "Lazlo Manolescu, the karameikian ambassador to the five shires, objects to both the shortness of the trial and to the means of execution" stefan "claims no interest in the matter of his(ludwig's) fate" The goblin shaman "hope's to use Ludwig's knowledge of humankind and his leadership ability to good advantage (the black eagle kept a large number of huminoid under strict control for a number of decades)." pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24: Stefan reminds the new nobles that their dominions must obey the kings law. There are to be no forced removals of fumans from the areas, and humans moving voluntaraly from the new elven dominions must be compensated fairly for the lands they leave behind." "The black eagle barony has been a thorn in stefan's side since he became aware of his cousin's abuses there." The new baron he apointed cause "he hopes can solve these problems (the baronies) in short order." "another problem Karameikos is experiencing - overcrowding" The "black eagle barony ( now called Halag barony after the original name of the town where fort doom was built)" some Humanoids driven from the black eagle took sanctuary in other parts of the duchy (definately in Achelos) pwa2 pg233 Kladmont 15: "as a gesture of good will from the people of karameikos to the people of thyatis, King Stefan sends tons of wheat to Thyatis city to help alleviate the famine. He also sends a number of clerics from the church of Karameikos to help battle the plague of mummy rot there." "he knows this will make him a hero in thyatis, and strengthen his political power." if the PC go to thyatis with the grain "Once in the city, they can see the appalling conditions the Thyatianian citezens live in." pwa2 pg235 Kaldmont 28: "There are nearly 200,000 slaves in thyatis city- roughly one third of the population." pwa1 pg144 Stefan: "He is gruff and very candid (often rude) of speach." "he is fair and even handed, but unable to acknoledge evil in members of his own family." "AL L." pwa1 pg185 Flaurmont 1: The KSoM: The site chosen for the school is the ancient ruined town of Krakatos" "the town was the site of some action in "the song of halav," an ancient Karameikan epic poem; it has been uninhabited for generations, perhaps centuries. King Stefan has ordered it cleand, its fallen walls repaired, and an additional curtain wall built some distance out from the original walls. He intends to restore Krakatos so that it will attract visitors, and has ground set aside for the schoot of magic in the outer ring (the new city)." "This is another one of king stefan's steps to make his nation more prestigious and prosperous." pwa1 pg192 Yarthmont 5: "King stefan finds himself among those who wonder at the potential profit inherent in contact with the hollow world. His interest is more in trade then in conquest." pwa1 pg 230 Eirmont 15: Stefan is kidnapped by halfling heroes "determined to show King Stefan what he doesn't want to believe." They "do nothing more then show him conditions within the barony. Stefan Karameikos will finally have to come to grips with just what sort of monster his cousin von hendriks really is." PC sergestion: "thay'll catch up to Stefan Karameikosas he's realizing what acctually goes on in the barony." pwa1 pg231 Eirmont 23: Stefan "grimly declares sanctions against the Black Eagle Barony" "Trade ceases between Karameikos and the barony" "stefan anounces that he is revoking the black eagle baronial status. He declares von Hendricks a common citizen of Karameikos and declares that the kingdom will not protect the barony from well deserved acts of retribution - even from other nations. He invites nobles and heroes interested in gaining the rulership of the Black Eagle Barony to appear before him and present their case." "Stefan Karameikos, as vengeful as he has ever been, has just set up ludwig von hendricks to be destroyed." pwa1 pg236 Kaldmont 23: the PC's "can decend into ludwig's horid dungeons to rescue anyone who still lives there" DotE DMG pg 7: "AC 900 / AY 1900: Thyatis's new emperor, Gabrionus IV, begins a new expansionist policy. Thyatains capture Traldara's chief city Marilenev, renaming it Specularum, and claiming all traldara as a thyatian protectorate." "AC 959 / AY 1959: The Alphatian emperor, angered by another thyatian broken treaty, commits his military to a sudden assult on thyatis." Thincol in AC 960 "assassinates generals until the military is of his mind" "AC 970 / AY 1970: Duke Stefan Karameikos assumes control of traldara, making it independant of thyatis, renaming it Karameikos." PG to Thyatis (PGtT) pg 4: Gabrionus IV "conquered that dark land" and "built the new capital Specularium, on the site of it's chief trading village" DotE DMG pg 14: Machetos : "there are a lot of foresters in this area, who often take the law into their own hands" (when they see people abuseing nature). "Until 30 years ago it was a very wealthy duchy" "Stefan Karameikos III fell in love with the comparitively unspoiled beauties of Traldara" "He Traded his lands minus his Treasury, to the crown for clear title to traldara." "Thincol I striped Machetos of it's wealth and livestock and sold it's slaves in the market, sold it's years crops for a quick below cost price, and effectively ruined the duchy's economy and depopulated it." "Castle Karameikos, which (though stripped of it's former tresure and decorations is still an example of powerful fortress building and menicing architecture" DotE DMG pg 23: Thincol: "Thincol is a hard, ruthless and uncompromising man." "His frendships are all expedient: if a friend becomes no further use to him, or angers him, this friend is abandoned or betrayed at the earliest oppitunity." "He is quite happy to appeal to adventurer's patriotism and send them off on suicide missions which will benifit himself or the empire." PGtT pg 4: "Gabrionus V, who took the throne in AC 913, was a more scholarly sort who promoted the arts and goodwill between men but let the military slip into decline." PGtT pg 5: "Stefan Karameikos III of Machetos offered the emperor his rich duchy in exchange for clear title to Traldara, to the west. Thincol agreed, and used those ducal lands and funds to finish rebuilding his military." PGtT pg 9: "The Thyatians adore the individualists who prefer to serve the thyatian state but also do not give in to that state when choosing how to live their own lives" Efficency: "it is true that the empire loves to do things in the most efficent manor possible. Wars of revenge are discouraged; wars of conquest and raids for booty are encouraged. Trade is encouraged, for the middle man always gets the profits." Thyatians will "analise any situation in terms of efficency. If what is going on is not efficent, he'll probally offer a cold, heartless, efficent, alternative." PGtT pg 10: "Empire in decline" "To an ever increasing degree, decadance and irrisponsibility are infecting the nobility and the wealthy of the empire." "Ministers and senator's suppliment their income with bribes. The proportion of slaves to citezens is rising in thyatis." "The Emperor, of foreign birth is stedfast against these excesses and still sets an example for the common man." "this will eventually bring great harm to the empire" the thyatians are "the fastest to embrace new cultures and races, mingling them with their own with delight and interest." "when contact with new cultures results in sudden appearance of new cults and sects, clerics and scholars eagarly rush to learn about them, to contrast and perhaps combine with their own." PGtT pg 14: "The senate writes the laws of the empire; no other body can introduce laws" "The senate needs the emperor for approval of laws, the emperor needs the senate for the creation of laws. PGtT pg 14: Standing Military "These forces are brought to bear on places within the empire on the whim of the emperor - so they are mostly used to defend imperial lands and to crush rebelion." PGtT pg 16: duchys "are semi-autonomus of rule" PGtT pg 16: Law and Punishment "the legal system in thyatis brings swift justice. It is so swift, in fact, that it can be quite unfair." PGtT pg 17: Punishments: "The nastier the intent the nastier the punishment will be. The standard levels of intent include: (1) Accident/unknowing. (2) Good intentions (3) Error in judgement (4) Temporary madness (5) Self-interest/Unsociability (6) Cronic self-interest/unsoc. (7) Inhumanity PGtT pg 19 Thyatian attitudes: "we are not conquering the world but civilizing it" Hattian attitudes: "We are the greatest race to ever be; a promise made to one of a lessor race is not really a promise;" "The Thyatian empire will one day be the Hattian empire." PGtT pg 25 Storm Soldiers: "Hattian warriors and knights that fight for Hattian supremacy, racial-purity, and surpression of women. They are a hate society esspecally powerful on the island of hattias." "All members (except those in covert or spy roles) must wear black uniforms with the gold storm soldiers lightning bolt insignia all the time." "Storm Soldiers who adventure often recieve orders to betray, steal from, or spy on their allies." WotI pg 80: Karameikos sells out. "The newly established kingdom of Karameikos agrees not to help thytis in this war - in effect, selling out their longtime allies. In reture Alphatia agrees to recognise Karameikos's independance and to set up a school of magic in the Karameikian capital of Specularum." "Duke (now king) Stefan has long desired his own throne, completely free of any allegence to his old friend, Emperor Thincol." "Stefan has chosen this moment to declare his independance, when thincol can hardly spare the men to re-take Karameikos (which has been autonomus for the last three and a half decades anyway)." "He believe thyatis is doomed and rationalizes his betrayal of his homeland by saying that the steps he has taken will ensure that the thyatian culture survives even if the empire is destroyed. He also recognises the very real danger posed by the master of the desert nomads" WotI pg 87: Thyatis get's no aid: "Thincol of thyatis, knowing that the situation is desperate, requests help from his old friend Stefan Karameikos. Stefan politely refuses, claiming that the majority of his forces are helping draokin and shoring up the western front in case the master of the desert nomads attacks again. That stefan would go to the aid of his draokin allies and yet abandon his old homeland to its fate is particuallt bitter to the disillusioned emperor." pwa1 pg 46 :"...a semi-autonomus dominion, the black eagle barony. It is ruled by stefans black sheep cousin, the baron ludwig von hendricks. He has been a major source of irritation for the last four decades" "there are many frictions between the thyatians and the traldarans, but increasingly they are comming to think of themselves as a single nation; this is largely because of the policies of duke stefan. Despite the policies of many of his nobles, who see the traldarans as a work resource to be used for maximum profit, Stefan has enforced many laws to ensure traldaran equality." The Thyatians during their conquest "moved an army into traldara, conquering the costal reagons and some inland comunities and declaring the nation to be a protectorate of thyatis, leeching the nations wealth away." Stefan "moved in with his own governers, taking over where thyatis's governers had ruled, and began an agressive program of road building, citadel construction and other fortification." pwa2 says "town building" insted of citadel building. pwa2 pg 45 : "Ludwig ruled his barony with an iron fist, encouraged humanoids to immigrate into his dominion, and even instigated raids into surounding lands. For decades stefans inability to believe such stories of his relitives protected the baron from reprisals. But in AC1010 a group of halflings kidnapped King Stefan and took him on a surprising tour of the black eagle barony." "King Stefan quickly renounced his cousin's title and did nothing to discourage halfling forces from marching into the barony to exact retribution for the barons raids on the five shires." from PWA2(I think) Levels: F16 ludwig m28 bargle the infamous banner of the black eagle's villans: f24,general <-----this is interesting! F20, captian <----so is this! m16 c14 karameikos army's heroes: F18 F12 M18 C15 pg 160 PWA II King Stefan's birthday : "petty criminals are often pardoned and released." pg 164 PWA I Start of 5th year of rule. "Thyatis' trecherous and selfish politics have taken their toll on the frendship between Stefan Karameikos and Thincol I. Today , stefan is only interested in building Karameikos into the strongest and best kingdom it can be." Rules cyclopedia pg 268, "Although it's rulers never called it a kingdom, thats effectively what it is." Non-referenced statements. "allowing the original Traldarian rulers to retain their baronies only when they swore allegence to him." Stefan "tries to keep his nation strong, the better to discorage invation from dangerous neighbors - such as thyatis. He does not actively opress the traldarians to improve the lot of thyatians; he passes laws that are written to be fair to all. But Karameikos himself cannot enforce every law, many of his thyatian subordinates are not so scrupulous in their dealings with the traldarans." "Ancient ruins lie here, long forgotten by the traldarans" "he procrastinated after he knew that Ludwig had pillaged Halag." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:09:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Stefan's Taxes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >The current taxes are also spent in Karameikos, rather than going out >of the country, so it probably has a more beneficial effect than >before. Considering that current taxes are paying for road >improvements, defence, etc; and Karameikans are being paid to do this >work... at least, that's how the debate on taxes goes in the real >world. Exactly. Previously, Thyatis would have been taking what they could get out of Karameikos in tax plus asset stripping as much as possible. After all what is the point of invading a country (in medieval times) if you do not make a profit out of it. Invasions are not done for the benefit of the locals. Hence Karameikans are theoretically financially better off with Stefan in charge. But this is true if and only if he is not taxing them more than the Thyatians did (which is probably not true since his administrative structure is stronger), and if he is reinvesting the taxes in projects beneficial to Traldarans rather than skimming most of it off for himself and his cronies. Adrian _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 05:39:03 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> You imply that the Duke tinkered with the Traladaran culture and customs, and I don't think he did. Their church was left alone and intact, and there is no state religion. << > > Their church was kind of sidelined, IMO that's pretty clear. Actually I can't see that. Stefan never imposed any state religion on anyone. IIRC the Church of Karameikos was originally members of the the Church of Thyatis that factionalized and changed their name to reflect the country that they were now part of. Stefan did nothing to promote either religion. > Stefan's intention (his goal of "shaping and molding" the area in "his" image - not in their own image) certainly shows an inclination to tinker with their culture/civilization. The "New Karameikans" concept shows that as well. OK can't argue with you here, Stefan does have a goal of shaping and molding the area in his image. Then again, isn't that what great leaders do?? The most remembered leaders are people who add something to the culture, and I think you'll agree that Stefan has done that. >> All good points. However, the interior remained a forbidding place. << > > As it remained for much of Stefan's rule. The point being, or at least the point I'm making, is that the trend over time was in the direction of greater security, trade, and settlement even before Stefan arrived, and it's, IMO, difficult to say he did better than a indiginous Traladaran government (see above) or more time under Thyatis would have, especially if some of his "mistakes" are taken into consideration (Halag probably would have been a thriving city rather than a dark, despoiled, town struggling to recover if it wasn't for Stefan appointing Ludwig to rule it for so long. It might have been at least as large and thriving as Kelvin). Actually, I totally disagree with you. One of the first things Stefan did upon taking the throne of Karameikos was to build the great roads that span Karameikos and allowed safe travel in the interior of Karameikos. The coastal villages of the Traladara, if left alone, would have never undertaken such a venture. Traladara would have developed in two tiers (as actually it was beginning to). The coastal villages would be progressively more worldly, where as the interior villages would be considered "barabaric hicks". Yes, the interior would eventually been settled (sometime in the following centuries), but it would have been through neccessity rather than choice (the coastal area would eventually be unable to support the size of the coastal villages so the coastal traladara would have been forced to start to settle inland). Remember deep down even the coastal Traladarans would fear the vampires, werewolves etc etc. that were said to plague the interior villages. > >> Well, we don't know exactly what Stefan said, but I doubt it was > incendiary. << > > Well, the revolt occured after his anouncement. Doesn't sound like he just made the usual statement (which never sparked any revolt). > > >> In the line following, it says, "The powerful Traladaran families in Specularum saw the political change as an opportunity to reestablish Traladaran independence." << > > Yes, but my point being: why then? If things were just going swimmingly and Stefan didn't say anything that would disturb them, why the sudden change in attitude? 70 years of calm. Stefan arrives. Immediate revolt. > Simple. Stefan said the one word that gave the green light to the opportunistic Traladran ruling families. "Autonomous". With no reprisals from the Thyatian Empire if they revolted against this new ruler, the Traladaran ruling families thought they had nothing to lose and everthing to gain (which in essence was a fairly true assumption). Thus, they revolted. Phil (aka Alexander Korrigan, humble student of the Great School of Magic) "I'm not evil. Just practical." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:31:21 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On a completely unrelated note, I just had to say that the reason I didn't= =20 answer more e-mail from the list tonight is that I voted and then spent the= =20 evening watching the election results. Which are in. Already. For anyone who cares, the Prime Minister of Canada is (again) Jean=20 Chr=E9tien, with a hefty majority government (170+ seats out of 301). After this message, I'm going to bed, because I stayed up waaaayy too late= =20 answer MML mail last night (this morning?). =3D;) At 12:02 PM 11/27/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> However, given that half of the described families actually /are/ the= =20 > mafia and that the other has a network of people from the underside of=20 > the city working for them (beggars for Torenescu), it's not a huge= stretch. << > >Well, as Eugen Weber has said, midieval lords were basically in the=20 >protection racket business, and one might point out that, for example,=20 >Stefan himself benifits from a network of informants &tc. (controlled by=20 >Olivia), and that one of his sons is a Thief. Sounds like I would enjoy Eugen Weber's work. I'm not an historian, but I= =20 enjoy the subject as a dilettante. Re: Olivia's network of informants -- It isn't some shady network - it's=20 based on socialite events with dignitaries, nobles and other important=20 people, and through filtering common rumours through that lens. Re: Valen Karameikos as a Thief -- That's a character class, not a mode of= =20 behaviour. It is just a way of representing skills. One could easily note= =20 that Olivia is also a Thief (well, perhaps closer to Rake, but Rake wasn't= =20 an available class when Gaz 1 was written.) Her actions, behaviour and=20 motivations are not described the same way as, say, Flameflicker's are, for= =20 example. >Does that mean thats enough to say they're bad and the Traladaran families= =20 >good? Probably not. But in some cases there is a "distinction without a=20 >difference" I like that turn of phrase! Are you quoting/paraphrasing someone? >- Traladarans would be justified in seeing Stefan and his "ruthless men"=20 >land-stealers as a criminal enterprise. Yes, the "ruthless men" were seen as a criminal enterprise by the=20 Traladarans (and probably others). (cf. Davinos' Complaint) However,=20 Stefan is not lumped into this group, and is universally recognised as=20 being fair and even handed. Whether you think that is spin, or fact,=20 depends on which view of Stefan you espouse. > >> E.G., let's be fair. Some of the families /are/ mafia. And even the= =20 > ones that aren't were being opportunistic and self-serving in attempting= =20 > a coup at that time. That's not denigration or defamation. That's=20 > calling a spade a spade. << > >And Stefan is opportunistic and self-serving in his ambitions; that's also= =20 >calling a spade a spade. I think ambition does not need to be considered bad. Ambition is bad only= =20 when the goal aspired to is bad, or that the path to it is bad. You also=20 claim that his ambition is self-serving, and if you want to see it that=20 way, more power to you. I don't. I see his ambition as being more=20 altruistic, and attempts to act in the best interest of all his subjects --= =20 the majority of whom are Traladarans. For example, you state the bad, but= =20 exclude the good from pg 4 of the Gaz 1. After the point about ruthless=20 men, it says: "On the good side, Duke Stefan himself was an exemplary leader, demanding=20 fairness and honor in the men he directly supervised. He began using the=20 trade tax revenues to build broad, good roads across the country, uniting=20 the far-flung villages into a single nation. [*] He built a substantial=20 army, using native Traldarans, Thyatian immigrants, and even Callarii=20 elves, to protect the Grand Duchy. In short, he began the long, slow=20 process of building Traladara, a land of unfriendly villages and wolf-howls= =20 in the night, into a strong trade nation." That sounds a lot like he's doing things in the common good, in a spirit of= =20 mutual co-operation and understanding, not for the purposes of serving=20 himself, but in serving the nation he is helping to build. Is that a=20 vision of the country? Yes. Is that his vision? Sure seems to be. Is=20 that a vision of thousands of little Stefan Karameikoses and narcissism? I= =20 think not, but YMMV. [*] - It seems those villages were not actually on the way to uniting into= =20 a single nation until Stefan came along. That is, 70 years after the=20 Thyatian conquest. That doesn't sound like the Traladarans were uniting=20 into a single council, etc., as the interesting quote you cite a bit later= =20 in this post, from K:KoA pg 18. Perhaps they /would/ have eventually done= =20 that, but they hadn't taken steps in that direction even by the time Stefan= =20 arrived, so he would have no way of knowing they would (like we DMs, the=20 meta-Gods, do). Given that, it seems he was still trying (and succeeding)= =20 in acting in the interests of the common (Traladaran, even!) good. >And is indeed no small part of my point (I.E. that I don't think he's=20 >better behaved & motivated than the alternatives). Right. A point on which we can agree to disagree, though I support your=20 right to express that opinion. > >(I'm sure Jenn and others can say how such "safety" of the Thyatian > >protectorate itself wasn't nessissary). > > >> There's not much evidence either way, really. It could well be that=20 > the coastal communities didn't need the Thyatian "protection." The=20 > interior communities seem to be another matter, though ... .<< > >Well, there is the statement in the Gaz about Traladara's development on=20 >its own (pp.3-4 and p.13), and the possibility of it uniting under a=20 >"powerful leader" (p.4), which is expanded in K:KoA to this interesting=20 >statement: "Had the Traladarans been left to their own devises, the=20 >various clans most likely would have united into a single council (similar= =20 >to Glantri's principalities) dominated by a strong leader, possibly a=20 >member of the powerful Marilenev Clan." (K:KoA, p.18), which IMO shows=20 >that they didn't *need* either the Thyatians *or* Stefan to forge them=20 >into a nation, they were heading in that direction anyhow. The aspects=20 >would have been different under self-determination, but that's partly the= =20 >point: See my comment above, near the "[*]" > >> Settlements didn't expand in the interior like Specularum did until=20 > Stefan made it possible. << > >See, I'm not so sure that it was Stefan who made it possible; a Traladaran= =20 >council/government would probably have achieved similar results, and=20 >another generation or so of Thyatian rule might have as well (point being= =20 >that the "darkness" was gradually lifting under both, accelerated under=20 >the Thyatians due to increased interest - expanding trade requiring=20 >security of trade routes in either case), Thincol made the trade with=20 >Stefan because it would have taken more time and effort than he had at the= =20 >time (due to the pressing need of restoring the Empire's military=20 >strength), "time" being 30-40 years perhaps (interestingly, same as=20 >Stefan) - and the Traladarans themselves, largely unfettered under the=20 >Thyatian Protectorate, were, IMO, able to achieve these things on their=20 >own initiative as well (I don't see them as nesssisarily passively=20 >awaiting an outside savior, for instance, to direct them). > > >> You imply that the Duke tinkered with the Traladaran culture and=20 > customs, and I don't think he did. Their church was left alone and=20 > intact, and there is no state religion. << > >Their church was kind of sidelined, IMO that's pretty clear. I guess that depends on how you look at it. Was the worship of Frey/Freya= =20 sidelined in RW norse countries, just because Odin and Thor cults were the= =20 preferred cults of the Jarls and Carls, respectively? I don't know. I=20 don't think that just because the leaders of the country follow a certain=20 religion and the populace follow a different religion, that the religion of= =20 the populace is sidelined. Especially in a country with religious freedom,= =20 as Karameikos has. >Stefan's intention (his goal of "shaping and molding" the area in "his"=20 >image - not in their own image) I've already argued your interpretation of that isolated comment does not=20 necessarily imply the narcissistic view you espouse. You're welcome to it,= =20 but it's not for me. "His own" image of Karameikos could well be the one=20 of an enlightened and accepting society I described above. He hasn't,=20 obviously, completely achieved it, but it seems like a worthy vision --=20 even if you're a Traladaran. >certainly shows an inclination to tinker with their culture/civilization.= =20 >The "New Karameikans" concept shows that as well. I'm not familiar with the "New Karameikan" concept. It sounds like it=20 might've come out of a product I don't own? >Did he succeed in all respects? No, not nessissarily, because as it turned= =20 >out the Traladarans weren't impassive empty-vessels, guys like Aleksyev=20 >Nikelnevich's efforts to "peacabl[ly] assimila[te]...the Thyatian=20 >population into the Traladaran" having some effect (note also his=20 >determination "that Traladaran blood rule over Traladara again.") (see=20 >Gaz1 p.51 and K:KoA pp.70-71 for Aleksyev description) I've read it. I still think A.N.'s efforts at assimilation are not at odds= =20 with Stefan's. Afterall, he's Thyatian, and they embrace new cultures. If= =20 a little Thyatian rubs off, too, perhaps the mutual combination will be=20 greater than the sum of the parts. > >> If anything, the Gaz shows Thyatians being influenced by the=20 > Traladaran national character - adopting the Traladaran Shearing=20 > Ceremony, for example. << > >Well, OtoH, I also think that the Shearing Ceremony isn't all that much=20 >different than the Thyatian custom of "running away from home" in many=20 >respects (it's more formalized in Traladara, though). Fair enough. > >> Also, in The National Spirit on page 6 of the Gazetteer, it says >Thyatians born in Karameikos are infected with Traladaran philosophy. << > >Dudes like Aleksyev having a subtle effect. 8-) Also fair enough. Even to Stefan. =3D;) > >> All good points. However, the interior remained a forbidding place. = << > >As it remained for much of Stefan's rule. The point being, or at least the= =20 >point I'm making, is that the trend over time was in the direction of=20 >greater security, trade, and settlement even before Stefan arrived, and=20 >it's, IMO, difficult to say he did better than a indiginous Traladaran=20 >government (see above) or more time under Thyatis would have, See my responses above. >especially if some of his "mistakes" are taken into consideration (Halag=20 >probably would have been a thriving city rather than a dark, despoiled,=20 >town struggling to recover if it wasn't for Stefan appointing Ludwig to=20 >rule it for so long. It might have been at least as large and thriving as= =20 >Kelvin). All excellent points. Some mistakes are more unforgiving than others. =3D;= ) > >> And Stefan, unlike the Thyatians (under whom the City of Specularuam=20 > grew 6000% - under Stefan it's grown "only" 233%), << > > >> I'm very interested in where you get these figures. << > >Actually, I am, too. 8-)~ > >I'm pretty sure I read *somewhere* that Specularuam had a population of=20 >around 30,000 in AC 970 when Stefan took over, but now I can't find where= =20 >I read it. > >In any case, IMO it sounds like a reasonable figure, because I *have*=20 >found where it says that Specularuam was *already* outgrowing its old=20 >walls when Stefan arrived (p.36 in Gaz1, under "Duke's Wall", and p.40 in= =20 >K:KoA for the same statement). Like I said, I think I read that 30,000 in= =20 >AC 970 figure somewhere, but I can't find it now. Still, it seems like a=20 >good guess (if even somewhat of a "lowball" number), considering that the= =20 >circumference of the Duke's/King's wall isn't *that* much larger than that= =20 >of the Old Wall, there is still plenty of vacant land in it, for the city= =20 >of 50,000+/70,000. I think section probbly this deserves its own post and its own thread to=20 discuss, but I'm getting mighty sleepy. I'll try to get back to this later= =20 this week. > >> In answer, I note that the Thyatians ruled the place for 70 years,=20 > while Stefan has been there for only 30 years. << > >My point point is, growth was occuring, development of cities & trade,=20 >before Stefan, and it wasn't insignificant growth. Yes. But /not/ in the interior. > >> I also wonder if you're counting the growth of the other=20 > cities. Kelvin grew from nothing to 5000. Threshold grew to 5000 from=20 > less than 750 people. (I'm inferring the original size of Threshold=20 > using the section Smaller Villages and Homesteads, on page 6 of the Gaz.)= << > >And Halag & Luln got the gaspipe. I'd call the record "mixed". Okay, we can call that mixed. Still, it wasn't part of his vision to do=20 that, of course! =3D;) >Btw, trade in the interior was occuring before even Stefan *OR* the=20 >Thyatians came (the annual Gnome Caravan is mentioned as starting before=20 >either arrived), so the interior wasn't all a empty or dark region even=20 >then. Again, the light quite likely was spreading outwards without the=20 >need for Stefan. How does any of that show how Traladarans were starting to get it=20 together? Or that it wasn't a dark and dangerous place? The gnomes had=20 been there for a millennium, and all they managed was a once-yearly trade=20 caravan to the coast. The Traladarans had been there even longer, and=20 hadn't even managed that much. Sounds to me more like there must have been= =20 some serious challenges to survival in the interior forests of the country,= =20 not that the light was spreading outwards. > >>unleashed a plague of locust-like grasping men upon the Traladarans,=20 > his men siezed their lands (did that improve the security of the=20 > Traladarans?) << > > >> Locust-like? That sounds like uncountable numbers. << > >Yah, I phrased it that way as a change of pace from the "many of the=20 >Thyatian settlers who poured into the country, swearing loyalty to Duke=20 >Stefan and receiving land grants, were ruthless men who literally stole=20 >lands from the Traladarans living upon them." - "many" doesn't sound like= =20 >it was an isolated occurance, As I pointed out in previous posts, these were the actions of a minority of= =20 grant-holders. (See Davinos' Complaint, again.) If there were many abuses= =20 and it was still the minority of the cases, perhaps there were a large=20 number of land grants (much as there were when Britain was colonizing North= =20 America). This section probably deserves its own thread, now, too. :) >and this kind of thing didn't seem to have occured under the Thyatian=20 >governors before (as it says in the Gaz, "Trade went on, the wealthy=20 >families of Specularuam retained their properties, and there were no=20 >oppressive cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion." (none of these=20 >"ruthless men" unleashed on the unsuspecting population, no cruel cousins), Neither of which was intended nor reasonably forseeable, either, IMO. >trade boomed and the locals prospered more, no grasping men stealing lands= =20 >and no ambitious people who's goal was to mold the people in his own=20 >image. Doesn't sound that bad to me. Me neither. But, then, don't all roads lead to Thyatis. =3D;) > >> Well, we don't know exactly what Stefan said, but I doubt it was >incendiary. << > >Well, the revolt occured after his anouncement. Doesn't sound like he just= =20 >made the usual statement (which never sparked any revolt). His statement wasn't the usual statement, but it wasn't incensing,=20 either. He stated he had clear title to the land and that Thyatis was=20 bugging out. The powerful families took this to mean there would be a=20 period of weakness in which to strike -- which is very different from the=20 usual statement and the usual consequences of that statement. > >> In the line following, it says, "The powerful Traladaran families in= =20 > Specularum saw the political change as an opportunity to reestablish=20 > Traladaran independence." << > >Yes, but my point being: why then? See above. >If things were just going swimmingly and Stefan didn't say anything that=20 >would disturb them, why the sudden change in attitude? 70 years of calm.=20 >Stefan arrives. Immediate revolt. Opportunism. > >> But now some foreign overlord wants them to change their customs to=20 > fit his desires. . .very different. << > > >> Very different, indeed. It's also an unsupported argument. (At=20 > least, so far.) << > >It seems Stefan's ambitions and his reasons for wanting Traladara are=20 >forgotten: remember, it was so he could have a place to shape and mold in= =20 >his own image. Sounds like a goal of imposing his desires and vision over= =20 >their customs to me. That's how I see it, anyhow, especially when combined= =20 >with remarks about the "New Karameikans" et al. and the general=20 >undercurrent in Stefan's outlook. As we all agree, you're welcome to your view. But, I think my evidence=20 above supports my view pretty well, too. =3D;) -Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:48:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs In-Reply-To: <3A22F232.44DACBD9@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Agathokles wrote: > Caroletti wrote: > > > > Origin of the Minotaurs > > > > Eritteus' group would eventually give birth to the > > degenerated minotaurs known as Bargha [see Creature Catalogue or > > MC-Mystara]. > > Where do these critters dwell now? I'd be interested to hear if Caroletti has more ideas on this too. However, I can also add some other non-canon info: Andrew Theisen included Bargha settlements in his descriptions of Glantri's Great Crater. IMC there are numerous Bargha raiding parties based in Northwestern Karameikos. They live in the mountains north of Achelos. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:28:40 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: Mystara Modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have an opportunity to buy some modules (at a very good price, I might add) and want to know which of the older ones are set in Mystara. Is there a site with a list? Or can one of you email me a list, please? Also, are there ones that have been placed in Mystaran locations, even though they were not created for it? And where did they get placed? Thanks Karess __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:33:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Mystara Modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I have an opportunity to buy some modules (at a very good price, I might add) and want to know > which of the older ones are set in Mystara. Is there a site with a list? Or can one of you email > me a list, please? You mean OD&D modules? All of them were retrofitted to Mystara. As for AD&D modules, I don't think that any of them were originally created for Mystara. > Also, are there ones that have been placed in Mystaran locations, even though they were not > created for it? And where did they get placed? OD&D - most early Basic modules were only retrofitted (ex. Rahasia); most other are Mystaran. AD&D - I know that someone did work on conversions/adaptation of some modules to Mystara (Saltmarsh series on the Savage Coast, IIRC). You should look under "adventures" in the official site. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara >> On a completely unrelated note, I just had to say that the reason I didn't answer more e-mail from the list tonight is that I voted and then spent the evening watching the election results. << Yes; I watched parts of that on NTV & CTV. >> Re: Olivia's network of informants -- It isn't some shady network - it's based on socialite events with dignitaries, nobles and other important people, and through filtering common rumours through that lens. << Sounds pretty shady to me: people informing on their guests, and guests informing on their hosts. Tsk tsk tsk. Not that I *really* mind (as I've indicated before, IMO Olivia is the *real* pillar of the Karameikos regime) - it's just not nessissarily nice and fluffy-bunny is my point. >> Re: Valen Karameikos as a Thief -- That's a character class, not a mode of behaviour. It is just a way of representing skills. << Skills like Pick Pockets, (95%) and Backstabbing. >> One could easily note that Olivia is also a Thief (well, perhaps closer to Rake, but Rake wasn't an available class when Gaz 1 was written.) Her actions, behaviour and motivations are not described the same way as, say, Flameflicker's are, for example. << And neither are the Torenescu's or even Marilenev's. >>> "distinction without a difference" <<< >> I like that turn of phrase! Are you quoting/paraphrasing someone? << You mean the "distinction without a difference" phrase? Yah, it's sort of a semi-common (well, rare but not unknown) saying. I donno who originally coined it, if that's what you're asking. >> Yes, the "ruthless men" were seen as a criminal enterprise by the Traladarans (and probably others). (cf. Davinos' Complaint) However, Stefan is not lumped into this group, and is universally recognised as being fair and even handed. << Actually, when it says next that "early resentment against him and his followers was harsh. . .and often deserved," that doesn't seem like he was universally recognized as being fair and even handed. And, regarding Davinos' Complaint, that's in, what? AC 1000, right? So that means that thirty years later, Stefan has yet to correct these problems. So I'm not sure he's universally seen as fair and even handed then, either (do the Marilenevs see him as fair and even handed? How about the Torenescus, Sacha of Luln, or Alekseyev Nikelnevich?) >> I think ambition does not need to be considered bad. Ambition is bad only when the goal aspired to is bad, or that the path to it is bad. << I've never, that I know of, said ambition in and of itself is bad (if it's seemed that way, I appologize for unclarity) - I've always coupled it with what Stefan's ambitions *are* (which isn't, we've agreed I think, to uplift the backards natives out of some sense of altruism, but is that "shape and mold" stuff). >> You also claim that his ambition is self-serving, and if you want to see it that way, more power to you. I don't. << Well, we disagree, which is ok; my main goal in my posts is to show why it's reasonable for me to hold my opinions, not an attempt to say you shouldn't have yours. Some find that intollerable enough (defending a view of Stefan they don't share! The outrage!) but I've stopped responding to their posts. At this point, it's more fun to have a civil discussion of our different views and why we hold them. >> I see his ambition as being more altruistic, and attempts to act in the best interest of all his subjects -- the majority of whom are Traladarans. << Oh, we don't agree on that altruism thing, I guess. Oh well. Still, I don't think he saw or sees himself, or more importantly acts, like a selfless man out to benifit others. I think he acts in the best interests of *some* subjects - but most of those are the ones he brought with him from Thyatis (what's the "upper crust" of Karameikan society? The wealthy Traladaran families - are they depicted as rising with the Stefan Tide, or as a decayed force with declining influence? Who's lands got grabbed from them and they're still trying, 30 years later, to get them back? What effect did such have on them in the interum?) >> For example, you state the bad, but exclude the good from pg 4 of the Gaz 1. After the point about ruthless men, it says: >> "On the good side, Duke Stefan himself was an exemplary leader, demanding fairness and honor in the men he directly supervised. << Right; which is why I see him as neutral/indifferent rather than actively evil (he doesn't deliberately promote the bad things, and he himself behaves in a certain way - but he doesn't take any strong effort to prevent the bad things from occuring, either - in his exuberance to get his project of shaping & molding under way, he doesn't take the care with his appointments to insure that the affects of those appointments on his subjects is benign and not malign, and he doesn't properly supervise those apointees to make sure they're diligent and decent. *If* someone brings him a report and it's not too much of a bother for him, then he might correct the problem a bit, but the fact that these things are still around 30-40 years later is not a sign, IMO, of really being all that concerned about it). IMO, the "directly supervised" is quite telling - he's responsible for all these appointments he made, but once they're out of sight, it seems they're out of mind to him. >> He began using the trade tax revenues to build broad, good roads across the country, uniting the far-flung villages into a single nation. [*] He built a substantial army, using native Traldarans, Thyatian immigrants, and even Callarii elves, to protect the Grand Duchy. << Again, none of these are nessissarily "good" things in the sense of "nice/not nice" - I see them as "positive-but-morally-neutral" things (Thyatis has roads binding the nation together, a substantial army, and the like - but I don't see those as reasons for Thyatis's rulers being good men). Does that make him a good ruler? I don't think so either, because of the other fatal character flaws. I mean, to go back to these analogies: Hosadus has a strong army in Hule, has built roads, bound together what was formerly a collection of squabbling burgs into a strong nation, but that doesn't make him good. Similarly, the Shoon built roads, fostered the growth of cities and trade, had a strong army, fought dragons themselves (beholders too, IIRC, and other enemies), but that didn't make them good folk either - one point being that someone can do some good things without being good, if one looks at the whole then the picture becomes much more mixed where Stefan's concerned. Like I've sai! ! d in other posts, I think his inclination and wish is to do good and be good, but often when it would put himself out to do so (when push comes to shove), he takes the easy course (a better man would have taken more care in his appointments in the first place, and corrected any problems when they came up, keeping a watchful eye not just on the men around him, but on all those he's appointed to positions of authority and responsibility - *especially* those he can't directly supervise, because there it is *more* important that the persons themselves be persons of integrity, etc). He doesn't; IMO, at many points in his reign when a truly good person would take one course, a difficult one (one that requires more diligence, for instance, or some sacrifice, possibly), he takes the easy way out, or the course that benifits him at the expense of others (including "others" who are his subjects, or allies such as Alfheim - he had just fought alongside Alfheim to help Darokin, but when A! ! lfheim itself was being overun by enemies, he accepted refugees - misfortunes of others being a benifit to him - but didn't help them fight off their enemies). And there's the other matter, and the matter of Ludwig (just let the Hin do it - it would take effort on Stefan's part to even participate, plus it would be emotionally difficult for him, so he takes a pass on that one, too). >> [*] - It seems those villages were not actually on the way to uniting into a single nation until Stefan came along. That is, 70 years after the Thyatian conquest. << Well, as you know, I disagree. I don't think these things needed Stefan to happen, though I do think there's an effort to credit him with their happening. I think the materiels make it clear that these things could have happened without him. Thus it opens up, IMO, the possibility for several interpretations - the possibility for some to see Stefan as the crucial outsider savior without which none of this would have happened, and the possibility for folks to look at him as not a linchpin, the Traladarans as capable themselves. >> Perhaps they /would/ have eventually done that, but they hadn't taken steps in that direction even by the time Stefan arrived, << Actually, again, they rather had - cities, towns, and trade were already growing. IMO, Stefan's been lucky most of his reign (the old saying about it being better to be lucky than good) - he's been in the right place at the right time to benifit himself by a lot of things (cities, trade, and thus potential revenue had reached a point where it was now possible to finance these things, he took advantage of that possibility; Alfheim falls apart one day and he rakes in elven immigrants; Alphatia gets blowed up, so he not only gets his pay-off, but gets it led by one of Alphatia's most noted wizards, etc.) Traladara had reached the point in its growth/re-growth where these things had become feasable (though the disruption caused by Stefan's men looting Halag and stealing lands probably set things back a bit for awhile) - Stefan, a skilled opportunist, saw the possibility, that I can give him (as I have in other posts - I.E. he's able to percieve and quickly take advantage of opport! ! unities when it benifits him, but he's "blind" to things where he doesn't want to take any action/initiative - that's one of the reasons why I see him as "neutral-indifferent".) >And is indeed no small part of my point (I.E. that I don't think he's >better behaved & motivated than the alternatives). >> Right. A point on which we can agree to disagree, though I support your right to express that opinion. << Cool. And I support you to yours. 8-) >> I guess that depends on how you look at it. Was the worship of Frey/Freya sidelined in RW norse countries, just because Odin and Thor cults were the preferred cults of the Jarls and Carls, respectively? << Donno; From what I can tell, the CoK has been promoted actively at the expense of the CoT. Is the CoT declining because most Traladarans have decided on their own that they prefer the CoK? Or do most Traladarans still adhere to the CoT but it's sidelined for other, more political reasons? I think the latter is the case. >> I'm not familiar with the "New Karameikan" concept. It sounds like it might've come out of a product I don't own? << It's in K:KoA. Oh, one reply on this though, just a quick one (possibly more later): >> How does any of that show how Traladarans were starting to get it together? Or that it wasn't a dark and dangerous place? << Yes, but it's *still* a dark and dangerous place under Stefan as well; one might look at it and see that there's progress in many areas, but the place is still full of dark and foreboding areas. The "light" has spread further - but that goes with my point that the "light" was spreading before, and even into the interior (Highforge et al), and it's, IMO, hard (impossible) to *prove* one way or another whether it's spread faster under Stefan than it would have otherwise spread (especially since he introduced new "dark eliments" into the mix, not just entirely more light). (And the spread of light/departure of darkened areas in the "present", is that Stefan, or other forces - such as Adventurers and the Hin? These things alone show, IMO, that the "light" can spread with or without Stefan's participation. That indicates, IMO, how much or how little he's "needed", and, again IMO, casts "his" putative accomplishments in another light altogether.) Anyhow, now I do have to stop for the moment. IRL intrudes. *mutter* ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Cynidicea - get ready for some posts.... Well, here we are. Over the next short while, I will be posting to the MML the text of the Cynidicea Sourcebook, now completed and otherwise finalised. I have also emailed a copy to Shawn for uploading onto his site, and will be uploading a .doc version onto mine. I will be posting it in sections, in the order they appear in the document themselves, though I must warn you that there are a few tables, which likely will not turn out so well here. Nevertheless, "clean" versions will be available elsewhere. I hope you all enjoy it, and I would like to thank everyone who was involved - our work shows, I think. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:44:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicea - Introduction and Origins] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicea - Introduction and Origins Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:23:25 -0500 Introduction: Welcome, reader, to an ambitious project. When the adventure module B4, entitled The Lost City, was published by TSR in 1982, a new and fascinating world was introduced. Players and DMs were presented with a unique underground city named Cynidicea, which was populated by humans who had adapted to their environment in ways unknown to their surface cousins. The adventure also provided a history that was quite detailed for its time, which provided the DM with a sufficient background to understand the major motives of the various characters, as well as presenting a relatively complete overview of the city. The module also provided political intrigue, through the machinations of the followers of Gorm, Usamigaras, and Madarua, as well as the villainy of the followers of the evil being known as Zargon. This conflict between good and evil in its simplest form allowed the players to make moral decisions as to who was "right" or "wrong", and possibly even question their own beliefs. Finally, the adventure provided an overview of the entire Cynidicean cavern after the initial adventure was over, as well as further scenarios for adventures, so as to provide DMs and players with opportunities for continued play in this fascinating environment. This book shall pick up where The Lost City left off. Some of the ideas presented in the original module have been further developed into campaign ideas, and some of the regions briefly described - such as the Lower Catacombs, the Eye of Zargon, and the Isle of Death - are given more attention. The factions presented in the original module are also fleshed out considerably, providing a comprehensive overview of their motives, origins, and strategies. Important NPCs from each group are also presented, so as to provide players with contacts, and potential enemies. Attention is also paid to Zargon, along with speculations as to his origins; other important villains are also introduced, to add greater depth to adventures and campaigns based in Cynidicea. We have also striven to reveal the history of the Cynidiceans themselves. Who are they, and where do they come from? These questions we have tried to answer in this book, based on information from the adventure itself, GAZ 2: The Emirates of Ylaruam, and our own imaginations. Finally, we have provided information about the drug-induced decadence that afflicts the Cynidiceans, providing more concrete information as to the effects of drugs, as well as basic rules for drug use and withdrawal, which could also be used on a general basis in any campaign. Prepare yourself, then, for an interesting journey, as we delve into the mysteries of Cynidicea, and bring it closer to the light! Who Are The Cynidiceans?: The human inhabitants of the lost city of Cynidicea are unlike their surface-dwelling cousins in many ways. They are the products both of their adaptation to their new subterranean environment, and of the psychological experience of having their culture collapse and then be rebuilt in new and disturbing ways. If one were to look back through the ages to see what the Cynidiceans' forebears were like, one would be quite surprised. Unlikely as it may seem, the Cynidiceans are in fact closely related, along ethnocultural lines, to the Milenians and the Traldar, all of whom came from the same original stock of fair-skinned Neathar folk, who lived along the southeastern coast of Brun, where coastal Ylaruam lies today. Although there is a great deal of disagreement among scholars as to what this proto-culture was called, it is clear that, by the time it had advanced to the early Bronze Age, this group had largely fragmented into many sub-groups, each identifying itself with the locale in which it lived, or its town or city. Despite these superficial differences, there was a coherence of sorts among these people, such that, in the face of adversity, they could unite against an outsider who might threaten their way of life. Over the course of time, several elements of this culture broke off and developed elsewhere. The people later known as the Traldar were conquered by the nearby Nithians, and were moved to what is now Karameikos. From this group the Milenians later developed, who in turn migrated south to the continent of Davania, where they founded a mighty empire. Another element of this early folk migrated east to the Isle of Dawn. There, these people founded the cities of Trikelios and Ektos (now known as Ekto), which were in turn conquered by the Nithians at a later time. It is also known that others migrated west, into what is now Darokin. There, the cities of Salonikos (Selenica), Akorros, and Athenos were founded, as well as the ancient town of Dolos. Finally, a large portion of these early folk moved south, to what is now Thyatis, after the conquest and displacement of the Traldar. It is around this time, not long after the forced movement of the Traldar, that those of this folk who remained in southeastern Brun began to call themselves the Doulakki. The Cynidiceans belong to this group of people, and are likely the only modern remnant of it. According to the Encyclopaedia Thyatica, the term "Doulakki" is defined as: "Any one of a number of people living in various city-states in the Known World around the time of and prior to the Age of Halav. These people shared common bonds of race, culture, and sometimes trade; but often the relationship stops there." The Doulakki were in many ways like the Traldar - to a modern observer they would be almost indistinguishable, save for differences in language. Like the Traldar, the Doulakki were a people who venerated heroes and heroines, and who respected greatly those who went on epic voyages and performed great deeds. The main differences, however, between these two people was that, unlike the Bronze Age Traldar, some city-states in Doulakki lands had achieved Iron Age technology, such as Cynidicea. Furthermore, the Doulakki were more accomplished as sailors, and their triremes plied the seas to many far-off lands, such as the Isle of Dawn. As with many cultures, though, the Doulakki declined. The northward-migrating Thyatians, Kerendans, and Hattians conquered and absorbed a large portion of their lands, and those living in what is now Darokin collapsed due to humanoid raids and internal strife. Other settlements, such as those in modern Ylaruam and on the Isle of Dawn, were conquered by outside powers, and in many cases the people were assimilated. Many scholars believe that Cynidicea, at the time of its collapse, was among the last independent Doulakki city-states in southeastern Brun. Today, next to nothing is left of the old Doulakki culture, save for half-remembered tales and cultural traits in western Darokin, northwestern Thyatis, and southern Ylaruam, and possibly on the Isle of Dawn, too. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:47:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Caroletti wrote: > > > > > > Origin of the Minotaurs > > > > > > Eritteus' group would eventually give birth to the > > > degenerated minotaurs known as Bargha [see Creature Catalogue or > > > MC-Mystara]. > > > > Where do these critters dwell now? > > I'd be interested to hear if Caroletti has more ideas on this too. > However, I can also add some other non-canon info: > Andrew Theisen included Bargha settlements in his descriptions of > Glantri's Great Crater. > IMC there are numerous Bargha raiding parties based in Northwestern > Karameikos. They live in the mountains north of Achelos. I will savour the informations for one of the unfinished articles I am dealing with (Origin of the Bargha). Anyway, I have tons of stuff I am writing without having finished them... I'll take a look at your references, thanks. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Mystara Modules In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > You mean OD&D modules? All of them were retrofitted to Mystara. As for Err, it's sort of the reverse. Mystara sprung out of the modules, so they're the original canon. Off the top of my head: B1,B2,B3,B4,B5,AC10, O1, O2 - not Mystara-specific, but fans have drawn B1 and B4 in and there was a good deal of discussion about how B3 can be added in. B2 and B5, being generic fantasy, fit in almost anywhere, but settings are recommended in the Expert boxed set map. B6, B10 - Mystara-specific (Karameikos) X1 - Mystara-specific (Isle of Dread) X2 - Mystara-specific (Glantri) X3 - Mystara-specific (Rockhome/Northern Reaches) X4, X5, X10 - Mystara-specific (Sind [and surrounding lands?]) X8 - Set in Mystara, but easily placed in other worlds, being a remote island setting X6 - Mystara-specific, but doesn't fit in with the 1000 AC setting (Savage Coast) DA1 through DA4 - Mystara-specific (Blackmoor 1000 years before the cataclysm) CM1, CM4, M1, M2 - Mystara-specific (Norworld) M5 - Mystara-specific (Isle of Dawn) - or was this M4? Whichever one is not "Five Coins For a Kingdom" M3 - starts in Mystara, but spends most of its time extraplanar IM2 - includes a sojourn in Darokin CM6 - not Mystara-specific (if this is the Oard one..I confuse CM6 and CM8 sometimes) CM8 - Mystara-specific (though I can't recall where...backwoods Glantri??) IM1, IM3 - in the Mystara universe, but I don't recall any sections dealing with the planet itself I don't know about B7-B9, B11-B??, X7, X9, X11-X???, CM2, CM3, CM5, CM7 and CM9-CM?? - Mischa No self-respecting fish would want to be wrapped in (Rupert) Murdoch's publications. He puts out trash. - Mike Royko, 1983, before resigning from his longtime employer as it was bought out by Murdoch ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:36:01 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Karameikos v. Traladara In-Reply-To: ; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:37:18AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:37:18AM -0500, Evil Genius wrote: > > >> Re: Olivia's network of informants > > Sounds pretty shady to me: people informing on their guests, and guests > informing on their hosts. Tsk tsk tsk. See? It all comes down to the dinner guests and we *know* that Stefan is a good dinner guest :) gordon, vindicated at last :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:36:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs In-Reply-To: <3A23E1B6.D7BE0DC4@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Caroletti wrote: > > I'd be interested to hear if Caroletti has more ideas on this too. > > However, I can also add some other non-canon info: > > Andrew Theisen included Bargha settlements in his descriptions of > > Glantri's Great Crater. > > IMC there are numerous Bargha raiding parties based in Northwestern > > Karameikos. They live in the mountains north of Achelos. > > I will savour the informations for one of the unfinished articles I am > dealing with > (Origin of the Bargha). > Anyway, I have tons of stuff I am writing without having finished them... I know the feeling. Anyways, to give you some inspiration: your stuff is great. Keep it coming! :) H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:32:55 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone done any work on the Enduks? Minotaurs are claimed to be "fallen enduks" by them, who have been cursed by Ixion and lost their wings. I'm not sure how/why the enduks came about in the first place though. ----- Original Message ----- From: H�vard To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] the Origin of Minotaurs > On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Agathokles wrote: > > > Caroletti wrote: > > > > > > Origin of the Minotaurs > > > > > > Eritteus' group would eventually give birth to the > > > degenerated minotaurs known as Bargha [see Creature Catalogue or > > > MC-Mystara]. > > > > Where do these critters dwell now? > > I'd be interested to hear if Caroletti has more ideas on this too. > However, I can also add some other non-canon info: > Andrew Theisen included Bargha settlements in his descriptions of > Glantri's Great Crater. > IMC there are numerous Bargha raiding parties based in Northwestern > Karameikos. They live in the mountains north of Achelos. > > H�vard > > Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) > http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc > > "God created man in his image, and then man returned the > favour." -Voltaire > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:07:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs In-Reply-To: <003901c05961$43be0400$9a01a8c0@rob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Rob wrote: > Has anyone done any work on the Enduks? Minotaurs are claimed to be "fallen > enduks" by them, who have been cursed by Ixion and lost their wings. I'm > not sure how/why the enduks came about in the first place though. According to the original Grimoire article where they appeared first, I believe they were created by Ixion (I think there even was a date for when it happened). The Epic Mystara Timeline by James Mishler links them with the Golden Empire (Dragons) which was much older. I'm not sure if it had the Enduks arrive with the Dragons (from space) or whether the Enduks were or other origin (created by the Serpentine Empire?)? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "God created man in his image, and then man returned the favour." -Voltaire ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean History (BC 5500-AC 0)] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean History (BC 5500-AC 0) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:24:15 -0500 A Timeline Of Cynidicea: BC 5500: Akhor, sole survivor of a Carnifex colony on Brun, and a sorcerer of renown, makes his way to the swampy region that will become Ylaruam, in the southeastern corner of that continent. He befriends local primitive lizard men, who revere him as a god. BC 5200: By this time Akhor has brought all lizard men in the region under his control, and he has educated the most intelligent ones in the ways of Carnifex magic. His Empire of Mogreth covers the whole valley, and subjugates local Neathar and Oltec tribes. These tribes are put to work in the mines and in the fields, supplying the material wealth of the empire, while the lizard man over-class rests in relative luxury. Akhor, due to his long lifespan and great powers, is named Akhor-K'ha (Akhor the Mighty) by his subjects. BC 5100: A peace treaty is concluded with local dragons, in which Mogreth will remain unmolested so long as the dragons are not bothered. There have as yet been no conflicts, but Akhor wishes to avoid them at all cost. Mogreth at this time has no dealings with any cultures beyond the mountain ranges that constitute its borders, and none who enter the empire from outside ever leave. BC 5000: Akhor and his disciples implore upon the Outer Beings to present a sign that They are pleased with local developments. Zargon is sent as the Herald of the Outer Beings, and he obeys Akhor, and advises him in matters of faith. BC 4500: Akhor attains immortality in the Sphere of Entropy, unknowingly guided by Thanatos. Even upon attaining immortality, Akhor still believes that the Outer Beings are sponsoring him. A council of high priests and sorcerers takes over, as Akhor ventures to the Outer Planes in search of a way to free the Outer Beings. BC 4000: A civil war in the Empire ensues. Mogreth society has become increasingly stratified, as human slaves increasingly resent their lot, and the lizard man sorcerers resent the power of the priests. The slaves revolt, and many cities are destroyed. The sorcerers and priests begin fighting each other. BC 3900: The sorcerers, believing that Zargon is the source of the priests' power, devise a means, using now-lost Carnifex magics, to seal him away in a pocket dimension. They attack the main temple, slay the priests, and seal away Zargon. Imbuing five electrum disks, engraved with sigils, with the powers of the spell, they then hide these "seals" throughout Mogreth, in the hopes that no one will find them, and discover the means to free Zargon. Unfortunately, the Carnifex spell is too powerful for a mere magical item to contain; the seals will last only a few thousand years. BC 3800: The empire of Mogreth is destroyed by a combined assault of Oltecs, Thonian colonists, and dwarves. It had long been an obstacle to free travel in the area, and they feared its powers. This is not before some of Mogreth's greatest sorcerers use their powers to attain lichdom, or build great sanctuaries underground. Many lizard men go into hiding along with their leaders, while others flee south, towards what is now Ierendi and Minrothad. BC 3300: Several settlements are founded along the coast of what was once Mogreth by Thonian colonists. The local lizard men who remain are enslaved. BC 3000: The Great Rain of Fire. Several Blackmoor devices explode in Skothar, shifting Mystara on its axis. Many Thonian colonies along the coast are devastated, some sinking into the sea, while others are destroyed during a massive uprising of lizard man slaves. The climate in the region also changes. Where once the great valley was rather damp, but cool, it is now becoming hotter and drier. Those lizard men still remaining abandon their homeland, going south towards the coast or east towards the newly formed Isle of Dawn. BC 2200: Neathar tribes from the modern Northern Reaches/Ethengar region, driven southeastwards by conflicts, settle along the fertile coastal regions of what is now Ylaruam. There, they lead a pastoral existence, and become steadily more fragmented as they spread further up and down the coast. Local identities soon predominate, but the people still hold a looser loyalty to their people as a whole. BC 1800: By this time several Neathar settlements have developed early Bronze Age technology. Some rudimentary city-states war amongst themselves, while others set out across the Western Sea of Dawn to explore their world. BC 1700: Goblinoids move into the region, and Zargon appears to them in dreams. Frightened, they appease him, and he is pleased. BC 1530: The Nithians invade and conquer Neathar tribes living along the sea coasts of their realm. Some manage to escape the invasion, and these flee southwards, some moving into what is now Nicostenia and Dythestenia, and others moving even further south into what is now Thyatis. BC 1500: The Neathar tribes conquered by the Nithians, who call themselves the Traldar, are forcibly resettled in what is now Karameikos. They had proven themselves difficult to govern, and the empire does not have the resources to bring them fully to heel at this time. It is hoped that they can tame the wilderness, allowing the Nithians to move in later to assert control. This period also marks the beginning of the Nithian Empire. BC 1400: The Traldar, due to circumstance, are devastated by poor climate, disease, and animal attacks. The resulting population losses mean that they cannot maintain their current technological level, and they regress to an agrarian state. BC 1200: Those tribes who had managed to flee from the Nithians begin to develop a common identity, although politically they are divided into numerous city-states. They call themselves the Doulakki. BC 1050: Nithian wizards create gnolls, combining gnomes and trolls. They hoped to create a loyal servitor race; what they actually created was an intelligent, brutal race of humanoids. The gnolls destroy the wizards, and flee into the wilderness. BC 1000: The Traldar are nearly destroyed during a gnollish invasion. Some survivors are whisked to the Hollow World, while the remainder descend into a Dark Age. The Nithian Empire is at its peak by this time. BC 900: A group of Doulakki set sail across what is now called the Western Sea of Dawn, and they settle on the eastern shores of the Isle of Dawn. The city-states of Trikelios and Ektos are founded. BC 800: A group of Doulakki tribes migrate from their homeland in what is now upper Dythestenia, due to the steadily worsening climate and Nithian encroachment. In the hilly lowlands near where Parsa stands today, they come across a fertile region of grasslands and swamps, populated by goblinoids. They attack these creatures fiercely, killing most of them and driving away the remainder. They also come across a tall idol of a tentacled being, which they destroy. Unknown to them, one of the five electrum seals was hidden in the statue, and it is destroyed as well. BC 797: The city-state of Cynidicea is founded by the victorious Doulakki tribes. BC 794: In far-off Skothar, in the tiny coastal kingdom of Berushta, an aged Tanagoro king finally receives a son by one of his wives. This child is named "Gorm" - meaning "he who is strong as the wind". BC 770: The Tanagoro kingdom of Berushta erupts into civil war after four of Gorm's half-brothers contest his succession to the throne. Gorm is urged to leave the kingdom by the nation's sages, who tell him that he is destined for great deeds in the utter west. Shortly after Gorm leaves, the squabbling remnants of Berushta are destroyed by rampaging humanoids. BC 768: The ruling council of Cynidicea, hard-pressed to come to an agreement as to how to fight off the armies of neighbouring city-states and the Nithians, is surprised by the arrival of a powerful-looking, dark-skinned man. Calling himself Gorm, the man offers his services as a warleader. The Council accepts. BC 766: A small horde of lizard men, who had been roaming the mountains for centuries, attacks Cynidicea, hoping to drive out the humans and reclaim this land for themselves. They are defeated by the Cynidiceans, thanks to the decisive leadership of Gorm, who is made the first king of Cynidicea. BC 750: The declining Nithian Empire expands into the region occupied by Cynidicea. After a series of tense meetings, the Pharaoh and King Gorm agree to conclude a treaty of friendship. The Pharaoh is having enough problems holding his empire together as it is; the conquest of Cynidicea, tiny as it may be, could drain too many soldiers away from more important battles. BC 716: After an incredibly long and successful reign, Gorm dies. In reality, he has become an Immortal, and soon makes himself known as Gorm to a select group of clerics. Thrasymachus, Gorm's son, assumes the throne. BC 700: The Nithian Pharaoh is corrupted by Thanatos, and he turns his empire towards the worship of Entropy. BC 694: Nithia attempts to invade Cynidicea, but the heroism of its defenders holds off the attack, and manages to drive the invaders away, but not before Thrasymachus is killed in battle. Cynidicea is in a state of chaos. BC 691: A Nithian warrior-woman, named Ashtat, leaves her declining homeland. She comes upon Cynidicea, and sees it in turmoil. Taking the city-state under her protection, she soon makes herself known as a capable warrior and a great leader. BC 682: Led by Ashtat, the Cynidiceans defeat a small goblinoid horde just north of their city. In honour of her leadership and skill, the Cynidiceans crown her Queen of Cynidicea. BC 669: Ashtat abdicates in favour of her son, Oroth, deciding to embark on a quest for Immortality. BC 667: Oroth is assassinated by a faction loyal to the old line of Cynidicean rulers. A warlike brute named Heracles, who is an indirect descendant of Gorm, is made king. BC 652: Heracles is assassinated by a distant cousin, Xenopheus, a wizard who had been studying the lore of the Nithian mages, as well as those of now-forgotten Mogreth. BC 621: Trikelios and Ektos and conquered by the Nithians, who had already established themselves on the Isle of Dawn, and wished to consolidate their hold on the territory. BC 600: The Thyatian, Kerendan, and Hattian tribes migrate north from Davania and settle in what is now Thyatis. They begin a century of intermittent war with the Doulakki city-states already there. BC 500: The Nithian Empire collapses. The Immortals divert the river Nithia, promote unrest, alter the climate, and destroy all memory of the empire. Doulakki refugees from modern Thyatis arrive in Cynidicea, they share news of the invasion by the Thyatian peoples. Many of these refugees remain in the city-state, while others continue west into what is now Darokin, as well as Karameikos. BC 498: King Xenopheus, after ruling for an unprecedented 154 years, mysteriously disappears after mentioning his desire to experiment on Mogrethian summoning spells. His workroom is in a shambles, and there is no trace of his body. Only the word "Zargon" is scrawled on the wall. Oromines, a distant descendant, assumes the throne. BC 485: Oromines "the Mad" is removed from the throne in a coup. His rule was marked by contradictory laws, heavy penalties for minor crimes, and the naming of inanimate objects into positions of power (including a boot as strategic advisor). He is replaced by Armantia, a distant cousin. BC 460: A new Immortal enters the Cynidicean pantheon, calling herself Madarua. This is in fact Ashtat, who has succeeded in her quest for Immortality, and has decided to return to Cynidicea to develop a following. BC 445: Queen Armantia dies. Her reign is remembered as a peaceful one, and she becomes known as "Armantia the Benevolent". Her son, Menades, assumes the throne. BC 419: King Menades dies of old age, his rule uneventful. He is succeeded by his son, Psocretus, a rather hairy man who is surrounded by an unpleasant smell. BC 410: Cynidicea is plagued by a mysterious wolf-creature during the full moon of each month. Livestock and lone travellers are attacked. BC 400: Under the leadership of King Psocretus, Cynidicea begins the process of reclaiming land from the encroaching desert. Great networks of irrigation canals are dug, and more arable land is gained. The kingdom's borders expand as more land becomes available. BC 393: Psocretus' reign ends when the wolf-creature is finally killed. By now many people have begun the suspect that Psocretus and the creature were one and the same. The odd thing is that the wolf creature does not revert to the shape of Psocretus...making many doubt that the two were indeed the same. Psocretus has no heirs, forcing the royal advisors to rule as a council. BC 385: A halfling by the name of Usamigaras arrives in Cynidicea. He displays his magical powers (gained through a wish) and guile, and manages, against all odds, to convince the ruling council that he should be crowned their king. BC 380: Zargon manifests himself to a madman in his dreams. Instructing him to build a faith based upon worship of the tentacled being. The madman, named Damodes, founds the Church of Zargon. BC 320: By this time enough land has been reclaimed that several villages are established outside the city. Cynidicea is no longer a city-state, but a true kingdom. The Church of Zargon has become a large underground movement, with close to a thousand adherents, from all social strata in Cynidicea. BC 308: King Usamigaras leaves Cynidicea, saying that he must embark on a final quest. He has secretly embarked on a quest for Immortality, and he has decided to finish it before his mortal life ends. His rule was peaceful, but large sums of money have mysteriously vanished from Cynidicea's coffers, which once brimmed with gold. Later this year, a robed figure comes out of the desert, saying that he is a long-lost descendant of King Xenopheus. Named Gaius, he proves to the advisors that he has royal blood, and he is crowned king. BC 290: Usamigaras becomes an Immortal. He begins building up a following in Cynidicea. BC 274: Gaius completes the secret rites required to attain lichdom. BC 264: Gaius' increasing decrepitude can no longer be hidden easily from others. It soon becomes apparent through whispered discussions that he is some form of undead, and plans are put into action to put his son, Diomenesius, on the throne. Diomenesius does not know that his father has become a lich, and attributes his appearance to extreme age. BC 262: Gaius is chased from the palace by a horde of enraged citizens. He flees for the safety of the catacombs beneath the city. From there, he ventures into a large side cave, where he establishes his new stronghold. Diomenesius assumes the throne. BC 231: King Diomenesius is succeeded by his son, Emenius. BC 197: Emenius dies after a productive reign. His son, Adonius, becomes king. BC 159: Alexander begins his illustrious reign as King of Cynidicea, following the death of his father, Adonius. The irrigation networks are expanded even more, and aqueducts bring more water from the mountains, and he arranges to have a great underground lake created beneath the city, which is to serve as a reservoir. As the tomb of Alexander and Zenobia is being dug, workers uncover a previously unknown cave underground. They also find a corroded disk, apparently made of electrum, as well as an archway embedded into the cavern wall, filled with solid rock. One of the workers breaks the disk in picking it up, and Zargon is released, needing only two to be broken to do this. Although in a weakened state, he manages to kill most of the workers. Word spreads of the monster, plunging the city into chaos. BC 127: King Alexander and Queen Zenobia both die of a strange wasting disease, which the clerics of Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras were unable to cure. The public outpouring of grief is marred by accusations that the clerics deliberately let the king and queen die. These rumours are spread by worshippers of Zargon. BC 126: The clerics of Zargon gain control over the kingdom, convincing the people that only they know how to guide Cynidicea through these tough times. Zargon has been stalking the city at night, killing people at random. No one is able to kill him. Under their rulership, the Zargonites are able to "control" Zargon (by feeding him convicts). The unfinished tomb of Alexander and Zenobia becomes the Temple of Zargon, and he lives in the catacombs, content to be fed by his worshippers. BC 121: The Church of Zargon declares their faith to be the only legal one in Cynidicea. Worshippers of Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras are captured and fed to Zargon, and many more flee the city, spreading their tale. Some worshippers manage to hide their allegiances, and covertly work to overthrow the Church. BC 109: Instructed by Zargon, the clerics of Zargon cultivate and distribute a fungal narcotic to the people, saying that it will calm their fears and allow them to transcend their bodies so they may enter a better world. Many citizens take these drugs, and begin losing their drive. Work becomes shoddy, the irrigation ditches are no longer maintained, and the army loses its discipline. This is part of a plan to bring the people fully under the control of the Church. What the Zargonites do not realise is that, because of the drug's effects, Cyndicea's days are numbered. BC 102: By this time most of the other settlements in Cynidicea have been abandoned, or have revolted. Thousands leave the region in search of better lands, as well as regions devoid of Zargon's taint. Word of this chaos reaches the Antalian peoples living in what are now the Soderfjord Jarldoms. Many tribal leaders receive strange dreams, in which they are told to destroy the plague of Cynidicea. BC 98: A great horde of Antalian warriors sweeps in from the north, attacking the city of Cynidicea. They overwhelm the city's defences within an hour, and loot the city, putting it to the torch afterwards. Some Cynidiceans manage to flee with the clerics of Zargon underground, to a large cavern beneath the city. There, they begin to rebuild. BC 50: By this time the underground city of Cynidicea has been built, and the Church of Zargon rules with an iron fist. Followers of Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras leave the city and set up their hideouts in the ruins of the pyramid. They control the upper levels, and are left alone. The fact that the Cynidiceans have managed to rebuild their civilisation underground is nothing short of miraculous. They have domesticated several strains of fungus, and cave locust, to provide them with food, and irrigation ditches have been dug from the underground lake. Water channels have been burrowed into the solid rock, in the hopes of offsetting the slowly-falling water level. Despite these gains, the Cynidicean physiology is still unsuited to life underground. Fresh oxygen, although present, is far too rare, and the absence of the sun's rays are depriving the people of essential Vitamin D. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:26:00 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mortus? Never heard. Someone important? Nope. Just another of those > dabblers, who never made the test. So a wizard without any special > abilities: Int about 13 perhaps, St below normal and supposedly with two > left hands. Boy, you must live a hard life in Glantri :) > At least your story sounds like that :)) > you'll be sure to remember that when my undead death squad calls to your door ;) mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:18:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Tome of Mystara News Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Tome of Mystara Readers, It is with regret that I must inform you that Tome of Mystara will not publish for Winter 2000, due to time constraints on the part of the editors, as well as other, internal, issues. Issue #6 has not yet been rescheduled for publication. We'll keep you informed of any schedules or changes. In the mean time, if you have any questions, please feel free to write me at the address above. We do thank those of you who were considering contributing, and apologize for the inconvenience. We look forward to working with you again in the near future. Thanks, and sorry. Sincerely, Jennifer Guerra Editor, Tome of Mystara e-Zine http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:20:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean History (AC 0 to the present)] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean History (AC 0 to the present) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:24:52 -0500 AC 20: Some elements of all three societies opposed to Zargon have infiltrated the new city of Cynidicea by this time. AC 33: Working in secret for many years, the three societies pool their resources, and then stage a coup, invading the temple of Zargon. Although the Zargonites put up some fierce resistance, they are soon overwhelmed by the resolve of the three allied societies. After a few hours, the surviving Zargonites have been driven from the city, and across the lake. The three victorious factions form a coalition government. Once across the lake, the Zargonites come across several tribes of goblins and hobgoblins, many of whom are worshippers of Zargon. Pleased at the discovery, the evil clerics reveal their allegiance to the Zargon-worshipping goblins, and are taken in by them. These foul creatures are descendants of those who were defeated by the Cynidiceans in BC 800, when those people first came to the region. AC 34: The Zargonites, hiding amongst the newly-discovered goblin tribes living across the lake from Cynidicea, convince their goblinoid allies to help them reconquer Cynidicea, in exchange for support in their own wars against "unbelievers" - goblinoids who do not worship Zargon. The clerics, as a show of faith, agree to assist the goblins first. In Cynidicea, various efforts to kill Zargon have proven unsuccessful, though the creature does not leave his lair. AC 36: After only three years in power, cracks are beginning to show in the ruling coalition of Cynidicea. None of the factions can agree as to how Cynidicea should be ruled, since each one feels its own beliefs should be paramount. AC 39: After five years of hard campaigning, the Zargonites and their goblinoid allies succeed in conquering the "unbelievers". Only those that agree to worship Zargon are spared, while the others are put to the sword. The victors carve out a temple to Zargon in one of the southernmost caves in his honour. AC 41: Cynidicea is invaded by a small horde of goblinoids, led by the surviving exiled Zargonite clerics. Although the defenders have a numerical advantage, the three factions' forces cannot co-ordinate their efforts, pursuing their own goals. As a result, Cynidicea falls within hours, forcing the defenders to retreat to the ruined pyramid above. Those living in the city who do not express sufficient enthusiasm at the return of the Zargonites are fed to Zargon. AC 113: After several decades of consolidating their power, the Zargonites stage an invasion of the upper levels of the pyramid. Although their forces, composed of Cynidiceans and goblins, manage to draw close to the strongholds, they are all beaten back, suffering heavy losses. AC 170: Noticing that the population of Cynidicea is in decline, both due to the oppressive environment and the drugs, which suppress reproductive drives in many people, the Magi of Usamigaras commune with their Immortal to find a solution to the problem. AC 172: One of the Magi, while in a trance, receives a dream message from Usamigaras, saying that "only the blood of those who are truly of the depths will revitalise the people of Cynidicea." Perplexed, she relates this message to her fellow members. AC 175: The Magi decide to conduct an experiment, based on what Usamigaras has said. Using their magic, they locate a sizeable, embattled group of healthy goblins, who are not worshippers of Zargon. Secretly, they cast polymorph spells on the goblins, giving them human forms, and they drive off the Zargon-worshipping goblinoids who were harassing them. They then come upon the surprised goblins in peace, offering to help them deal with this "curse" that has struck them. In exchange for being hidden in the stronghold of the Magi, the goblins agree to be educated in the ways of humans, so that they can fit into society. AC 200: Having educated the polymorphed goblins, who have now been converted to the worship of Usamigaras, the Magi quietly lead them into Cynidicea, where they seamlessly merge into the society there. Over the next few generations, not only will fresh blood be added to the local gene pool; infravision will also develop among the new generations of Cynidiceans, who will still retain the human appearance of their ancestors. This new trait will allow the Cynidiceans to adapt more easily to their new home. AC 300: Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras, dismayed at the fate of their people, meet with Ka, Ordana, and Korotiku. They know of the efforts being made by these Immortals to preserve various cultures in the Hollow World, and ask them to save a portion of their followers, who are much reduced in power since the original flight underground. They realise that, due to continuing difficulties adapting to their new environment, and to increasing dependency on the drugs cultivated by the Zargonites, the Cynidiceans will eventually die out unless some outside power rescues them. The Immortals say they will consider the request. AC 310: Korotiku, Ordana, Seshay-Selene, and Ka privately discuss the predicament of the Cynidiceans. They know that the eternal sun of the Hollow World would be harsh on the Cynidiceans, though they would adapt eventually. The main drawback of this is that the culture of this strange group of humans would be forever altered. The Hollow Moon, with its darkness, would be a far more suitable place for them to rebuild. As a result, the four Immortals opt to whisk equal numbers of Cynidicean adherents of Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras to the Hollow Moon. AC 311: After conferring with the three Cynidicean Immortals, and obtaining their grateful consent, 500 followers of each, plus 500 non-aligned Cynidiceans, are quietly urged in their dreams to ascend to the surface. Standing amidst the desert sands and half-buried ruins of their old city, the Cynidiceans look up to a strangely glowing moon, whose rays almost seem to writhe about as they reach towards Mystara. Then, slowly, the awestruck Cynidiceans are gently gathered up with these beams, and, as they slowly fall asleep, they look downwards, seeing the ground recede below them. AC 350: Within the Hollow Moon, the city-state of Cynidicea has already begun to rise in prominence. AC 399: A schism begins to develop within the Church of Zargon. During a study of Zargon's directives, some lesser clerics question the importance of Zargon, saying that his presence is far too remote to be of any significance. Instead, they advocate worshipping the beings whose names are inscribed in the cavern walls in several places. Accusing the dissidents of blasphemy, the reigning high priest orders their imprisonment. AC 410: The dissident Zargonites are released from prison, though their convictions are firmer than before. Some of them, obviously insane, babble incessantly about "great Beings from Beyond who call us in dreams". In truth, Thanatos has turned these clerics to his will. He has assumed the guise of a hideous monster, so otherworldly that any who behold him risk going mad. Instructing them in their dreams, he has ordered them to build up a following and rise up against the ruling Zargonites. The dissidents go into hiding, and manage to recruit some of the local goblin tribes to their cause. Although opposed to the dissidents' precepts as well, the followers of the three Cynidicean Immortals provide weapons and food to the rebel clerics, realising that they have a common enemy in the Zargonites. AC 424: A small army, led by the dissident clerics, arises among the goblin caverns across the lake from Cynidicea. Marching around the body of water, the force makes its way to the temple, and proceeds to attack it. Most of the citizens remain in their homes for the duration. The battle turns against the Zargonite defenders, who are forced to flee to the catacombs underneath the temple, and from there to secret tunnels leading to one of the goblin strongholds. AC 427: The ruling Thanatos-worshippers pass a law forbidding the veneration of Zargon. The tunnel leading to Zargon's lair is sealed up, and powerful enchantments are cast, with Thanatos' aid, to render the creature immobile. They also permit the worship of the Cynidicean Immortals, as a form of payment for the assistance they received. During the rulership of the Thanatos-worshippers, the three factions recruit many new followers. AC 434: By this time the Church of Zargon has once again built up a network of supporters among the goblinoid tribes to help retake the city. This time, the goblins provide aid in exchange for uncontested rule of the lands across the lake from Cynidicea. The Zargonites stage a frontal assault, and are repulsed just inside the city. AC 441: The Zargonites launch a second attack, which succeeds. After fierce fighting outside the city, the Zargonites triumphantly return to their temple, and convert it once more to a place in honour of Zargon. Immediately afterwards, they use their spells to free their master. Seeing that Zargon is very hungry from his long imprisonment, they decide to feed their prisoners to him. The followers of the Cynidicean Immortals, realising the danger, manage to flee to the pyramid once more, bringing most of their converts with them. They each leave behind a network of informers and spies to keep them abreast of developments in the city. AC 650: A new tribe of goblins, from the Altan Tepes Mountains to the south, migrates northwards, and proceeds to annihilate many of the Zargon-worshipping goblins. The Zargonite clerics of Cynidicea, seeing a means to rule the entire cavern, do not aid their allies, hoping both sides will be weakened enough that they can destroy them all afterwards. AC 683: The war amongst the goblins reaches a standstill - both sides have taken many casualties, and neither wishes to continue fighting. Seeing an opportunity, the Zargonites launch an assault of their own, with 600 soldiers. The have the element of surprise, and manage to slaughter many of the goblins, while driving the remainder further underground or outside of the cavern system as a whole. The fleeing goblins, renouncing their faith, warn that they will return. AC 685: The Zargonites order the construction of a fortress, near the Eye of Zargon, in order to better defend their southern flank. AC 729: The goblins return to the cavern once more, and in great numbers. Within days, the embattled fortress falls to the invaders. Those unfortunate enough to survive the siege are massacred. Word quickly spreads to Cynidicea, where the Zargonites issue a call to arms. Within hours, the two forces meet among the fungal groves running alongside the lake, and do battle. Both sides take heavy casualties, but the result is a stalemate. The leaders of both sides meet, and they agree to cease hostilities, in exchange for respecting the other's territory. AC 850: By this time relations with the goblins have normalised somewhat. AC 1000: The present day for the Gazetteer series. This is the suggested time period in which to run module B4 ("The Lost City"). -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean Factions - Brotherhood of Gorm] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean Factions - Brotherhood of Gorm Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:25:38 -0500 The Factions Of Cynidicea: BROTHERHOOD OF GORM Political Beliefs The Brotherhood of Gorm sees themselves as the solution to the problems of Cynidicea obviously. They look on wanton use of magic as the major cause of the dreamworlds of the underground city's residents and thus have big conflicts with the Magi of Usamigaras about the best way to cure the people. They also see the female fighters of Madarua as unnatural and only worsening Cynidicea's troubles; Gorm taught that the woman's place was in the home. They should not be banned from fighting but should certainly not be encouraged towards it. Also they dislike the Madarua followers' use of force without a set code of justice to guide it. Only by the use of justice, the following of Gorm's laws, and the limitation of magic can Cynidicea be returned to its former state, and freed from both the dreams in which the people live and the tyranny of Zargon. Rituals The ceremonies to Gorm, conducted on the fourth day of each week, have several aspects to them. In the morning, the Brotherhood practice their weapon training, as they see themselves as the police and true guards of Cynidicea. In the afternoon, they conduct their chanting, audible as far away as the Stronghold of Usamigaras, infuriating the Magi to no end. Other Cynidiceans also react to the chants, imagining them differently, depending on their current hallucinations. In the evening of the holy day (reputedly the anniversary of the crowning of Gorm as King of Cynidicea) the study of Gorm's laws is undertaken. Many in the Brotherhood fancy themselves experts in justice and seek to learn the codes set forth by their founder ages ago. Religious Belief systems Kanadius: "The world's creation was done millennia ago by forces unknown. These forces obviously abandoned us to the harsh life of the desert and of the city. Here a great power arose, Gorm, the Bringer of Justice, the Storm-Raiser, the Warrior-King. He showed us the proper path and we strive to follow it. There are other pretenders to power, each with their own silly code, but these are nonsense rituals that only infuriate the mighty Gorm, causing him to bring down his wrath. Only by following him can we achieve true glory." Tactics/Laws Follow the laws of Gorm (a very complex, intricate code) and all will be right. Punish the wrongdoers but show them mercy, trying to bring them into the light. If there are several evils, work to eliminate the greatest first (hence deal with Zargonites before Magi). Do not tamper with the natural elements, as it will anger Gorm. Brute force is often a solid approach, but others may be used if the situation warrants their usage. Dream for Cynidicea The Brotherhood's dream of an ideal Cynicidea of the future is of a city that is just and upholds the traditional and just ways set forth by Gorm when he was king. Such a city would be ruled by warrior-kings such as Gorm was and would be following in his image and ideals. If they disobeyed his laws though they would be removed from the position - justice always transcends tradition. Composition of The Brotherhood: Full members: 2 F3, 2 F2, 21 F1 (25 in total) Regular members (due to gender, alignment or class): 2 F2, 7 F1, 30 NM, 1 C2, 2 C1, 1 Rake1 (43 in total) NPCs of the Brotherhood Geridius History: Geridius was born 42 years ago to the previous head of the Brotherhood and his wife, the chief cleric of Gorm at the time. He learned quickly from both, though he took more after his mother. At the age of 17, he became one of the younger initiates of the Brotherhood and rose to the head of the clerics at age 31 when his mother was slain by a Zargonite. He continues the work of his parents, spreading the word of Gorm and fighting all manners of evil and injustice. He was recently married himself to Triatha, a fighter in the service of Gorm. Personality: Geridius is a very self-controlled individual, calm to the extreme. He does not get mad at the errors of his fellow Cynidiceans, simply wishing to bring the truth to them. He considers each member of the Brotherhood as one of his personal charges and they all look up to him as a result. He is much more esteemed than any other lesser member and often takes charge of the Brotherhood's Stronghold in key moments. His counsel is heeded by all in the Brotherhood and few dare cross him if they ever have conflicts with him (which is rare). Appearance: Standing 6'2" and weighing 185lbs., Geridius is physically imposing. Only the presence of a mace and amulet of Gorm mark him as a priest rather than a warrior. No one knows what his facial features are, as he wears his mask at all times. Combat Notes: He is a 2nd level cleric of Gorm. AC 5 (chain); hp 11; #AT 1 (mace); D 1d6+2 (strength bonus); ML 12; AL L; S 17, I 10, W 14, D 9, Co 15, Ch 13. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Honour Gorm (W+1), Codes of Law and Justice (W+1) Ashlantha History: Ashlantha was born 26 years ago to two normal Cynidiceans not badly affected by the daze most of the city residents lived in. At age 18, she was recruited into the Warrior Maidens of Madarua though she had some doubts about their philosophy. She learned quickly though and was considered a potential future leader of the Warrior Maidens. Her doubts grew though when she heard a member of the Brotherhood explain the virtues of a just and lawful path. She started studying with this Gorm follower on a regular basis and eventually decided it was the proper path. Two years ago she officially joined the Brotherhood. Personality: Ashlantha is a devout follower of Gorm though she is a bit offended by the prevention of women being full members. She has studied the laws of Gorm and not found the slightest defence for this rule but her arguments are often ignored by the Brotherhood. She still is sure the path of Gorm is the one to a better Cynidicea and has also made efforts to bring other Warrior Maidens into the fold. A rather serious individual, she fits in well with the solemn Brotherhood. Appearance: Ashlantha stands 5'9" and is of normal build. She wears the necklace of lesser members at all times, proudly displaying her current affiliation, and makes sure to cover the sickle emblem of Madarua at all times, wearing heavy gauntlets. She is armed at all times, especially when she is out in the city. Combat Notes: She is a 1st level fighter. AC 4 (chain, dexterity bonus); hp 5; #AT 1 ; D 1d8 (sword) or 1d6 (arrow); ML 10; AL L; S 11, I 10, W 12, D 14, Co 13, Ch 12. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Mysticism (W), Codes of Law and Justice (W), Stealth (City) (D), Blind Shooting (D) Mikalai History: Mikalai was born 81 years ago and served all his life in the Stronghold of Gorm. He was an errand boy in his youth, a guard for the Stronghold during his prime and now in his elder years is the keeper of the library in the Stronghold wherein the lawbooks of Gorm and treatises on them are kept. He is a widower, his wife, a fellow servant of Gorm, having died over 20 years ago of natural causes. His children have both died in the service of the Brotherhood, having been full members, and his lone grandchild is currently the wife of another full member of the Brotherhood. His life has revolved around this sole cause and will continue to for the little time he has left. Personality: Mikalai is a weary soul. He has seen much suffering in his life, seen the continued decline of his city and seen the Brotherhood remain stagnant throughout it all, never rising to the glories he wishes it to. He is proud of the others in the Brotherhood though and often tells stories of the successes it has seen during his lifetime. He cares greatly for the Stronghold where he has served his whole life, the library with which he is now entrusted and his granddaughter, his lone family. He does his utmost to make newcomers to the Brotherhood feel welcome. Appearance: Mikalai is obviously a very old man. He wears a mask of Gorm usually but without it his wrinkled face and near-bald grey hair are plainly obvious. Even with the mask, his stooped and scrawny figure is certainly not that of a young warrior. A few scars mark his arms and chest, remnants of his warrior days. Combat Notes: He is a normal man. AC 9 (none); hp 1; #AT 1; D 1d4-1 (dagger, strength penalty); ML 10; AL L; S 7, I 11, W 11, D 10, Co 8, Ch 11. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Mysticism (W), Knowledge (History of Brotherhood) (I), Knowledge (Stronghold of Gorm) (I), Labour (Servant) (I) -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean Factions - Magi of Usamigaras] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean Factions - Magi of Usamigaras Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:26:20 -0500 MAGI OF USAMIGARAS Political Beliefs Strict, authoritarian systems of any sort hinder intellectual creativity and equality, both of which must be striven for. Similarly, efforts that seek to keep out any group based on gender or on political beliefs are doomed to failure by restricting their potential. The poor should not be looked down upon - only those without the intellectual capacity to study magic in any form should be pitied or held in less regards. NOTE: Many individual Magi, like the leader Auriga, do not truly BELIEVE this but rather use it as rhetoric. The Magi overall are not as committed to a cause as are the other three factions. Rituals Usamigaras is worshipped on the days of the new moon and of the full moon. On the earlier days, the ideas of creation, birth and new beginnings are celebrated. Weddings are conducted on this day and any building by the Magi is undertaken on this day, as are grand projects (unless they are rush jobs that must be begun sooner). On the full moons, the ideas of death, conclusion and finality are emphasised. Burials among the Magi are always postponed till the next full moon. Each ritual is host to an illusionary show by the chief magic-user present. Such illusions are often perceived as real by those Magi deep into the dream world. Religious Belief systems The Magi believe in a polytheistic world and simply see Usamigaras as the one who best exemplifies their viewpoints. They will occasionally worship other deities from the ancient lore but never Gorm, Madarua or Zargon, all of whom they consider arrogant and authoritarian beings. They also see all three other groups as being outdated, no longer able to cope in a modern world the way Usamigaras' more recently founded group can. Tactics The Magi prefer diplomacy (and trickery) to direct confrontation 10 times out of 10. Some of the members are dirty, back-handed folks, and some have no real regard for a just and moral lifestyle. They have great respect for opponents who mimic their strategies well, but see the more direct tactics of the other three factions as brutish. Laws The Magi do not follow a strict system of laws. Anything that infringes greatly on the freedom of another, as judged by the head Magi available at the moment, is punishable by fines. No severe penalties are imposed by the Magi unless there someone leaves their ranks - those 'traitors' are never allowed to return but are allowed to go on their way without ill harm. This is as severe a penalty as the Magi will impose. Dream for Cynidicea The Magi wish for a day when all the other factions cease to exist and/or stop trying to impose their will on Cynidicea. That day of freedom, of equal opportunity, of less law and order, is the dream of the Magi in general, though some may wish law and order and others may wish inequality. The dream overall simply strikes them as better than the dreams of the other factions. Composition of The Magi: Full members: 1 MU3, 5 MU 2, 26 MU 1, 2 T2, 6 T1, 2 C2, 2 C1 (44 in total) Lesser members (due to alignment or class): 2 F1, 11 NM (13 in total) Some NPCs among the Magi: Deanne History: Deanne was born 34 years ago, the child of two followers of Usamigaras, both mages. She did not inherit her parents' magical ability but remained inside the faction nonetheless. She does odd jobs around the stronghold, but mainly watches after her newborn son and her husband, a magic-user named Gilfast. Personality: Deanne is a nice lady, if a bit protective of her son. She wishes for him to grow up in a stable Cynidicea, something she does not see happening anytime soon. She is sure that if any group does create stability though it will be the Magi among whom she has always lived. She will be kind to strangers until they prove unworthy of her trust. Appearance: Deanne wears different masks, depending on her mood and on the occasion, but she never wears the masks of Usamigaras as she does not wish to identify herself as a full member, whom she envies. She wears fancily designed robes generally, with a variety of colours and symbols on them. Her son usually is carried along as well these days. Combat Notes: She is a normal woman. AC 9 (none); hp 2; #AT 0; D none ; ML 9; AL N; S 9, I 13, W 10, D 11, Co 9, Ch 14. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Singing (Ch), Knowledge (Magi of Usamigaras) (I), Danger Sense (W), Cooking (I) Thanti History: Thanti was born 22 years ago, his parentage unknown. He was found by the Magi by the door of their Stronghold in Cynidicea and they have let him stay with them. He has picked up some of the more devious skills taught by the Magi but is generally loyal to their cause. Personality: Thanti is a con-man. Anything he can get via trickery or subterfuge he will get. He does not hold the truth in any great regard. He is loyal to the Magi though and is respectful of the possessions of the members of his faction. He often works as a spy against the other factions and may be asked to spy on any strangers to the city. He might also be asked to become 'friends' with any newcomers to try to find out more about them. His only true friends, of course, are the Magi. Anyone else is a sucker ripe for the taking. Appearance: Thanti wears a sparrow mask at all times. He is on the short side, but is of medium build. He wears loose, baggy clothing and is not visibly armed (though he usually is carrying some weapon hidden on his body). He wears a variety of disguises when doing his actual work. Combat Notes: Thanti is a 1st-level thief. AC 7 (Leather); hp 2; #AT 1; D 1-4 (dagger) or 1-2 (blackjack); ML 11; AL N; S 9, I 13, W 13, D 12, Co 8, Ch 16. Languages: Cynidicean, Goblin. General Skills: Knowledge (Geography of Cynidicea) (I), Deceive (Ch+1), Disguise (I), Escape Artist (D) Zenifia History: Zenifia is 31 years old. She is the daughter of two Zargonites and grew up in that order. Disgusted by the rampant immorality, she left at age 17 to join the Magi. Sensing a natural magical talent in her, they allowed her to join and she has been a loyal follower of Usamigaras ever since. Her parents are still active among the Zargonites and wish her back, thinking her brainwashed by the evil Magi. Personality: Zenifia is a very introverted individual. She prefers being left alone with her books than being in the company of others. She also knows the Zargonites do not hold her in high regard so she stays within the confines of the Magi's Stronghold unless specifically ordered to go on an outside mission. She has no close friends and it will take a great effort to win her trust. Appearance: Zenifia wears the typical garb of a Magi of Usamigaras. She is fairly beautiful but she specifically picks heavier robes to conceal this, not wanting any attention. She is also terribly near-sighted though the Magi have created glass frames that help her vision somewhat. Combat Notes: She is a 2nd-level magic-user. AC 9 (none); hp 6; #AT 1; D 1d4-1 (dagger, strength penalty) or by spell (knows Light, Magic Missile, Shield and Floating Disc); ML 8; AL N; S 8, I 14, W 9, D 10, Co 13, Ch 15. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Alertness (D), Stealth (City) (D), Lip Reading (I), 1 unspent skill slot -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean Factions - Warrior Maidens of Madarua] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean Factions - Warrior Maidens of Madarua Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:26:57 -0500 WARRIOR MAIDENS OF MADARUA Political Beliefs The Warrior Maidens believe that neither the chauvinistic view of the Brotherhood of Gorm nor the deceptive approach of the Magi (and certainly not the evil ways of the Zargonites) is the way to a better Cynidicea. They believe that only a society that gives strength to the women and that operates in a direct, forward and principled manner will thrive. They will work with the other societies, though, if the alternative is worse - if they can be convinced the only way to topple Zargon is by joining forces with Gorm then they will do so. NOTE: The Warrior Maidens' supposed stance for equality is easily questioned by those who note they prevent men from becoming full members. In response to such criticisms, they often say they are causing balance as the Brotherhood of Gorm exists as an all-male institution. Once the Brotherhood is gone the Warrior Maidens say they would become more inclusive. Whether this is true is unknown. Rituals On the four holy days of Madarua, the life cycle is celebrated. In the morning of the holy days, the Warrior Maidens pay tribute to birth, the bringing of new lives into the world. The rare child born at this time of day and year is considered blessed. Also in the morning, consideration is given to the joys of infancy and childhood, before one is introduced to the harshness and inequalities of life. Often a child present in the Stronghold gives a speech for the adults at this time. As the day goes on, life of those in their prime is celebrated. Contests of strength are held at this time, gifts being available for the victors. When evening and night come (note: The Warrior Maidens monitor the outside conditions from the top of the step pyramid and relay the time changes down to those in Cynidicea proper) the focus is shifted to the elderly. The oldest and wisest of the Warrior Maidens now give speeches and counsel, tell stories of past glories and impart the rules of morality and the code of Madarua to the young. Religious Belief systems While they once recognised her as such, the Warrior Maidens do not actually believe Madarua is an Immortal, no longer believing in ANY of the Immortals. Clerics of Madarua are scholars more than priests. The rituals are done in the honour of the former Cynidicean queen, not as if she were the entity she currently is. She does not mind this, still favouring the Warrior Maidens with her blessing, as she is glad some Cyndiceans still follow the path she urged. She pays much more attention to them than the Nithians from whence she came and whom she left due to their chauvinistic ways, as emphasised by the religion of Rathanos. Anyone who comes preaching the word of Madarua (or Gorm or Vanya or Zargon or Ixion or Usamigaras or whomever) will be viewed sceptically at best. Tactics Like the Brotherhood of Gorm, the followers of Madarua are rather direct in their approach. They believe the strongest will persevere and a result spend a considerable amount of time working on their fighting abilities and ensuring that they can not only hold their own in a fight but win easily against more numerous but less trained and weaker opponents. Laws Madarua, during her reign over Cynidicea, instituted a code of justice not nearly as comprehensive as that of Gorm. It was simply two lists that anyone can remember - one of crimes punishable by death and another of crimes punishable by indentured servitude (included here is one absent from all the lawbooks of Gorm - that of mistreating a person because they are female.) All the followers of Madarua know these laws by heart and abide by them. Dream for Cynidicea The Warrior Maidens say they wish for a day when all Cynidiceans have an equal shot at whatever it is they wish to do with their lives. They wish to see a day when Cynidicea is not victim to treachery or back-handed tactics and a day when women have true power. The ideal ruler of course would be one modelling themselves after the great queen from the past, Ashtat/Madarua. Composition of the Warrior Maidens Full members: 2 F3, 3 F2, 22 F1 (27 in total) Regular members (due to gender, alignment or class): 1 F2, 6 F1, 2 MU1, 1 C1, 25 NM, 4 T1 (39 in total) NPCs among the Warrior Maidens Haria History: Haria is one of the elder members of the Warrior Maidens, now at 62 years of age. During her prime, she was one of the better warriors among the Maidens and still retains some of her combat skills despite her advanced years. She is a widow, her husband having been killed 19 years ago by a crazed Cynidicean civilian. She has one son, who toils for the Warrior Maidens during menial jobs but is opposed to the group's restrictive philosophy. Haria herself is a firm believer that their side is right and will defend the Warrior Maidens in any argument and against any criticism. Personality: Haria is a very humourless individual. She is deeply concerned about the future of Cyndicea and of the Warrior Maidens and will work to ensure a better future in however much time she has left. She disdains idleness or confusion, believing discipline and stoicism are necessary in order to succeed. Appearance: Haria stands 5'7" and is fairly well-built. She wears the typical clothing of a Warrior Maiden, in tip-top shape (she is rather obsessed with cleanliness, seeing filth as a sign of laziness). She shows little of the effects of age, though her hair has greyed behind her mask and she has developed a few wrinkles here and there. Combat Notes: She is a 1st-level fighter. AC 5 (chain); hp 6; #AT 1; D 1d8 (sword) ; ML 11; AL N; S 10, I 10, W 8, D 9, Co 14, Ch 9. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Muscle (S+1), Military Tactics (I), Endurance (Co) Vinzopi History: Vinzopi was born 25 years ago, his parents belonging to the Brotherhood of Gorm. He found this group far too concerned with justice for his tastes. It wasn't that he thought law and order was a bad thing - it simply wasn't the ONLY thing that should guide one's life according to his view. Seeing the life of a typical Cynidicean or a Zargonite or a Magi far too undisciplined, he joined with the Warrior Maidens of Madarua at age 20, knowing he would not be accepted as a full member, but still finding their philosophy the most fitting. He has worked for them as a guard these past 5 years. Personality: Vinzopi is still trying to prove himself to the Warrior Maidens, who view males as inferior despite their egalitarian rhetoric. He has been a loyal follower of the cause though and has been accepted by most. He is generally a kind soul, but will fight for that which he believes in. He is also hopelessly in love with one of the Warrior Maidens who shows not the slightest interest in him, causing some complications in his life at the moment and making him a bit snappish at times. Appearance: Vinzopi wears the garb of a full member of the Warrior Maidens, except for the mask. In its place he wears the mask of a black bear. This 5'8" man does not appear muscular, but possesses an inner strength. Combat Notes: He is a 1st-level fighter. AC 5 (chain); hp 4; #AT 1; D 1d8+1 (sword, strength bonus); ML 10; AL L; S 14, I 11, W 11, D 9, Co 10, Ch 11. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Profession (Guard) (I+1), Codes of Law and Justice (W) (Remnant of his Gorm upbringing), Persuasion (Ch) Jilanka History: Jilanka is the daughter of the Warrior Maidens' former chief scholar. She did not find quite the same affinity for books that her mother did though and has instead found the warrior life much more to her liking. At age 24, she was made head of the guards at the stronghold in Cynidicea and now at age 42 she is the overall commander of that fort, though second in standing overall to Pandora. There are several more skilled fighters among the Warrior Maidens but only Pandora is more respected. Personality: Jilanka might come across as gruff to outsiders, but she is very warm and kind to her friends and comrades. She is a strong leader, not known to second-guess herself. She does not wish to lead, but accepts the role, and she definitely does not seek to usurp power from Pandora. She can be a bit battle-thirsty if she has not fought in a while and this comes across in training sessions. Appearance: Jilanka is not very imposing, standing just 5'2". She is very strong though and deceptively quick in combat. She comes across as if she never feels any pressures on herself and her soldiers react to this. She wears the typical garb of a Warrior Maiden at all times. Combat Notes: She is a 2nd-level fighter. AC 4 (chain, dexterity bonus); hp 11; #AT 1; D 1d6+3 (strength bonus, spear+1); ML 12; AL N; S 16, I 9, W 15, D 14, Co 11, Ch 14. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Leadership (Ch+1), Knowledge (Warrior Maidens of Madarua) (I), Bravery (W) -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean Factions - Church of Zargon] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Cynidicean Factions - Church of Zargon Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:27:40 -0500 THE CHURCH OF ZARGON Political Beliefs The cult of Zargon sees itself as the force that should be in charge of Cynidicea. All the other various factions are deemed to be radicals aimed at upsetting the social order and stability that would come with the rule of the Zargon worshippers. Rituals There is no set system of when the followers of Zargon perform their ceremonies, but it is safe to say that whenever Zargon asks them to pay honour they are willing to do so. Just to stay on his good side, they worship him at other periods as well. The rituals are rather gruesome and will not be explained in detail, but it is known that sacrifices to Zargon are often required. They often use captives of the other three factions for such sacrifices. Religious Belief Systems The Zargonites see the many-tentacled thing as the one true ruler over all. They consider the worship of former kings such as Gorm as rebellious heresy and idolatry. Tactics The Zargonites generally rely on brute force, as that has been enough to accomplish their goals so far. If any of the other three groups gain in power, they may try an all-out assault on the opposing stronghold. Similarly, if there are powerful newcomers to the city or if the three factions unite they will first meet the threat with an aggressive attack. Should these tactics fail though, they may resort to more devious schemes to rid themselves of their opposition. They will NEVER give up, and if Zargon is killed they only will become that much more spiteful of his enemies/destroyers. Of course, if Zargon regenerates they will cite this as evidence that they were right all along. Many semi-sane Cynidiceans may come to agree with them based on this proof. Laws Laws? For the Zargonites? Well, there is one. Namely, Follow the Will of the Mighty Zargon and his Clerics. Anything they say goes. Not following their orders means death. Dream for Cynidicea One day, all shall come to realise the power and truth of Zargon. They shall stop following false rulers and worship the mighty one. All will obey his will and Cynidicea shall become mighty, the centre of his future kingdom. Those who have served him well will be rewarded with power. Those who have not served him shall die. Composition of the Church of Zargon Unknown. There are no full members and lesser members - the cult claims it treats all equally. This is more true than with the other groups, as all members are treated equally. Equally badly, that is, in a group wherein all seek power and fight over it, directly or through intrigue. Members of all classes exist among the Zargonites, as do a number of humanoids. Some Cynidiceans serve the cult for money, out of terror or because the insanity has got to them enough they believe the Zargonites mean the best. Most Cynidiceans, being in their dreamworld, pay the cult little heed. Those in their right minds often join one of the other three groups in the attempt to overthrow the worshippers of the slime-being. NPCs among the Zargonites Arastotheles History: Born in AC 965 to a family of devout Zargonites, Arastotheles has been deeply immersed in the lore and dogma of Zargon his whole life. Sent to the Temple to gain an education, as the eldest son of his family, Arastotheles had these beliefs reinforced. By the time he obtained membership in the Zargonite clergy at the age of 20, Arastotheles was a raving fanatic, eager to spread to faith, and just as willing to put down "heretics" ruthlessly. He assisted in crushing revolts on at least two occasions, relishing the experience of killing his fellow Cynidiceans, whose crime had merely been the adherence to a different faith. Soon, he chafed for more action, and so his superiors sent him into the far caverns known to the Cynidiceans, where he was ordered to make contact with various known goblin tribes and bring them under Zargon's influence. It was here where Arastotheles fought many underground monsters, and brought many a goblin to the "light" of Zargon - by force if necessary. Recognised for his achievements, he was recalled to Cynidicea, where he was assigned the post of Inquisitor, and was made responsible for rooting out subversives, and dealing with them in any way he desired. He remains at that post today. Personality: Arastotheles is an utter sadist; there is nothing more he enjoys than torturing and killing those who are helpless to fight back, and bringing those whom he considers heretics to "justice". Blended with his sadistic tendencies is a fervent belief in the cause of Zargon. He believes that he is serving Zargon's will by seeking out and killing those who oppose his worship, and he feels that Zargon's principles are the ones guaranteed to provide him with the means to attain Immortality one day. Like many of his fellow drug-crazed Zargonites, Arastotheles has not stopped to consider that there are no real principles to Zargon's worship as such, unless one counts such ideas as "might makes right". This minor detail has not stopped him, however. Appearance: Arastotheles is not very imposing, standing roughly 5'8" tall and weighing 147 lbs. He tends to wear dark clothing - usually dark grey or black, when he goes about his gruesome duties. With his stark white hair, and his piercing light green eyes, he has a very ghoulish appearance, which he has found unsettles most people around him. Combat Notes: He is a 6th level cleric of Zargon. AC 4 (chain mail + DEX bonus); hp 35; #AT 1; D 2d4+2 (mace - Expert) or 1d2 (whip) or by spell; ML 11; AL C; S 12, I 13, W 18, D 13, Co 15, Ch 13. Languages: Cynidicean, Goblin. General Skills: Ceremony - Zargon (W+1), Survival - Underground (I), Orientation in Caves (I), Alertness (D), Leadership (Ch), Endurance (Co) Radulfus History: Born in AC 979, Radulfus was the youngest of three sons. His eldest brother, as is customary among many Cynidicean families that worship Zargon, went to the Temple to become a cleric of the faith. His other brother ventured into nearby caverns in search of adventure - and has not returned since. His parents not being terribly pious, and spending most of their time in a drug-induced haze after the loss of their second son, pretty much left him to his own devices. Having been turned down at the Temple for not possessing the talent to become a cleric, Radulfus enlisted in the Cynidicean army, in the hopes that there would be a future for him there. It was in the army that his superiors exposed him to the wonders of Zargon, and, through the use of additional drugs to enhance impressionability, made him into a drugged out, but useful, soldier. He spent over a year in this condition, scarcely being aware of his surroundings, and generally having a far greater concentration of drugs in his system than ever before - a large amount even by Cynidicean standards. It was during a botched raid on a nearby hostile tribe of goblins that Radulfus was separated from his fellow soldiers, and found himself lost in a series of strange caverns. After several weeks of searching, he finally found his way back to Cynidicea, but along the way many of the drugs had worked their way out of his system. He noticed for the first time how clearly he seemed to be thinking, compared to his fellow Cynidiceans, and suspected that there must be something at work, which made everyone appear out of touch with reality. This was especially evident to him when he rejoined his army unit - no one noticed that he had been missing for several weeks! Though some of the ambient drugs have since found their way back into his system, Radulfus has managed to avoid taking the special drugs given to the soldiers, which he correctly suspected of turning them into zombies. Personality: Radulfus is a soldier of Zargon because there do not appear to be any alternatives, and because it is the only existence he has really known. At the same time, he suspects that something is wrong in Cynidicea - something is inhibiting the ability of the people to function normally. His few weeks away from Cynidicea gave him the chance to see the world in a more or less "clean" state, and now he cannot help but notice how oddly people are behaving. He has no idea that there are drugs present in almost everything, or that the Zargonites are responsible for their presence. As a result, Radulfus is at a crossroads; if someone were to show him a better way to live, or that the Zargonites are responsible for Cynidicea's current problems, he would abandon his tenuous faith. Appearance: Radulfus is a typical warrior - moderately tall at 5'10", and solidly built (177 lbs). He is rarely seen without his short sword at his side, and his chain mail armour is always neat and clean. Combat Notes: He is a 1st-level fighter. AC 4 (chain mail + shield); hp 8; #AT 1; D 1d6 (short sword + strength); ML 10; AL N; S 14, I 13, W 13 D 12, Co 12, Ch 15. Languages: Cynidicean. General Skills: Military tactics (I), Survival - Underground (I), Alertness (D), Orientation in Caves (I) G'tran History: G'tran was born 34 years ago, to the chief of the Cynidicean thouls, and his wife, the most influential shaman. His mother taught him her spells, in addition to the reading and writing so rare among his clan. When G'tran was 16, both parents were slain in an uprising by one of his father's bodyguards. G'tran, already a powerful figure in his own right, defeated the usurper, and seized control. He now heads not only his thoul tribe, but many of the cliff-dwelling humanoids, and works hand-in-hand with the Zargonites on many missions. He has not taken a wife, but maintains romantic relationships with several female thouls. Personality: G'tran has a need to be in charge, a combination of his heritage and his history. Having seen the danger of treachery from ones' followers, he runs a tight ship, brooking no dissent. He has personally slain any humanoid leader in his subject tribes who dares to question his rule. Given this nature, he is especially annoyed at having to take orders from the Zargonites, and looks forward to the day when the tables are turned. Until then, he plays the part of the loyal follower, all the while ensuring that the cliff-dwellers remain loyal to him foremost. He is willing to listen to those who may help him throw off the rule of Zargon, if his followers are granted independence. Appearance: G'tran stands just 6'3", short for a thoul, let alone a thoul chieftain. He possesses a wiry strength from the troll-side of his heritage, but also is quite nimble, unlike any troll. He is an albino, with white hair and skin (goblinus monstrum necrophagous) and wears skins of important individuals he has slain. An amulet of Zargon adorns his neck, but is often removed when in the confines of his own cave. He is armed at all times. Combat Notes: He is a 6th-level thoul shaman. AC 6 (dexterity bonus); hp 47; #AT 2 claws or 1 battle axe+1 (basic training) or by spell; D 1d3+2+paralysis, 1d3+2+paralysis or d8+3 or by spell effect; save F8 (+1 vs. spells); ML 10; Al C; S 16, I 12, W 14, D 17, Co 13, Ch 13. Languages: Troll, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Cynidicean (the cliff-dwellers do not speak any other humanoid tongues, as the passing of time has caused a great deal of assimilation and cross-culture transfer). Spells: Daily: 2 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd. General Skills: Intimidate (S+1), Leadership (Ch), Mysticism (W). -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Drugs in Cynidicea (rules and background)] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Drugs in Cynidicea (rules and background) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:28:21 -0500 Drugs In Cynidicea: The typical Cynidicean lives in a world of shifting colours, sounds, and perceptions. Drugs are such a part of the Cynidicean culture that, when abruptly deprived of them, the normal Cynidicean will go into shock. "Cold turkey" is not an option with a Cynidicean; it would require months for them to physically escape the hold of the drugs they have taken. Some never escape the mental hold drugs have on the individual. The history of drug use in Cynidicea is a long and storied one. First introduced by the Cult of Zargon in order to wrest control from the government, drugs became the norm rather than the exception. Indeed it has been observed by some in attendance at a Cynidicean meal that, rather than use traditional spices on his or her food, a Cynidicean will "spice" a meal with drugs of various sorts. Combine this with the hallucinogenic fodder given to food animals and the typical Cynidicean feast can rapidly turn into a drug induced feeding frenzy followed by long periods of almost comatose sleep. In the beginning, Priests of Zargon were content with using drugs to alter the senses of the populace. As time went by, drug research became a more important part of the Church's activities. Poisons, mood alteration, religious, and recreational drugs were all researched and created in order to "better subjugate the masses" to the will of Zargon. Few stories of the "pits" where such drugs were tested on unwilling subjects escaped the dungeons beneath the Zargonite temples, but those that did were enough to incite a city full of drugged inhabitants into further excesses in order to escape the horrible reality that surrounded them. History Of Drugs In Cynidicea: A treatise on Cynidicea and its inhabitants would not be complete without referring to the role that drugs have played in the history of the nation and its people. For over 1000 years, the Priests of Zargon have made a conscientious effort to introduce drugs into the day to day lives of the average Cynidicean. This has resulted in a culture in which reality and fantasy are often intertwined. Drugs are not seen as a form of recreation, but as a daily part of life. In the year BC 127, the Priests of Zargon were instructed by their god to begin researching drugs to better control the fears of the populace and to woo them over to the worship of Zargon. By slowly introducing hallucinogenic drugs into the food and water supplies, they hoped to dull the natural fears that they held towards the multi-tentacled one and create an atmosphere of ambivalence to the fact that people were disappearing with regularity to feed Zargon's hunger. The fact that the drugs provided a pleasant type of "seasoning" to the demigod's meals that he enjoyed was an added "benefit". After King Alexander and Queen Zenobia both died in BC 128 of a strange "wasting disease" (actually one of the first of many poisons that the Priests discovered in their drug research), the priests took advantage of the resulting chaos to take control of the city in BC 126. They began the large-scale production and distribution of the hallucinatory drugs that they had developed in BC 109. These they introduced into the city's food and water supplies in order to cement their control over the populace. After the invasions of BC 98 destroyed all above ground evidence Cynidicea's existence, the remainder of the population moved underground to the caverns where the Priests had cultivated their raw materials for the drugs. What neither the Priests nor the Factions knew is that the entire food and water supply of the Caverns had also become contaminated from the drug farms. This resulted in the Priests also becoming addicted to the hallucinogens. By the time that they realised this, they were addicted past the point of "no return". Although they became addicted, this did not stop them from continuing to create new and improved versions of drugs to further subjugate the people and to fulfil their own cravings for stronger and more vivid experiences. Magic and Drugs: With the mages and clerics of Zargon co-operating to create drugs for the populace, it was only natural that they began experimenting with various concoctions to enhance their magical abilities. In the case of clerics, their use was to enhance the communication with their "god" Zargon and to aid them in the creation of various ritualistic magics. These magics, when combined with and enhanced by drugs and incense, were able to affect entire populations at a time. Mages used the drugs to decrease their memorisation times and to create new and powerful illusions. Drug Rules: Each drug is assigned a level, duration, effect, and description. The format follows that of Spell lists. Rather than detail 1000 years of drug development, the following guidelines are provided for the creation of drugs. Level ranges from 0 to 5. Each level corresponds to the potency of the drug. Level 0 has no save modifier, level 1 has a -1 modifier to the saving throw, etc. All saves are made vs. Poison for determining the effect of the drug. All saves are made vs. Constitution for determining addiction. Once a save vs. addiction has been made the next check is determined by the level of the drug based on the number of days vs. the potency. The check is made a minimum of once per 7-day period of exposure. Example: level 0 drug = once every 7 days of exposure, level 1 drug = twice every 7 days, etc. Addiction: Once an addiction roll has been failed the character is considered "addicted" to the drug in question and penalties will occur whenever the drug cannot be taken at least once per day. Penalties are drug specific and effects are based on the potency of the drug in question. Addiction can be cured in one of two ways. First is a cure poison spell cast by a cleric of at least equal the level of the potency of the drug. The second is to go "cold turkey". This method can be voluntary or involuntary. In order for it to be voluntary the character must make a save vs. Wisdom modified by the potency for a number of days equal to the potency. Thus, a level 1 drug imposes a penalty of 1 to the save. If made, the character can proceed normally with addiction penalties being reduced by 1 per day of successful save made. If the save is failed during the "detox" time then the character must begin the process again, as he or she has "fallen off the wagon". If the character fails the save vs. Wisdom, then he or she will refuse all attempts at detox for at least a week per potency level before he or she can attempt the Wisdom save again. If a character is forced to detox by others during this time, he or she will actively attempt to break away from the programme through whatever means possible up to and including doing violence on others. All other detox guidelines (regarding saves, etc.) remains the same. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Word version posted For those who are interested in having the MS Word version of the Cynidicea sourcebook, you'll find it in .zip format on my geocities website. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:03:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Drugs in Cynidicea (tables)] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Drugs in Cynidicea (tables) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:29:05 -0500 Sample Drug Listing: Hallucinogenic Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage hal1 Communicate with Gods Shaman use to communicate with Immortals. hal2 Spirit Walk Out of body spiritual experiences. hal3 Visionquest See future/past/far away places, acts as clairvoyance/clairaudience spell. Same effects and duration apply. hal4 Glowbug Allows viewing of "aura" of all living things, in combat acts as faerie fire, gives attempts at first aid double the positive effects. hal5 Nightmare Trip Creates gateway into the Nightmare Dimension and allows a creature from there to possess the body for 1d6 days - extremely rare and used mainly in ritualistic magic to bind a nightmare creature for use as an assassin or servant on the Prime Plane. Barbiturate Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage bar1 Sleep Sleep as per spell. bar2 Spell Regain Halve time needed to rest before regaining spells. bar3 Numb Remain conscious but paralysed, as per hold person. bar4 Quicktime Sense of time if off - views world as if passing two times as fast; opponent always gains initiative and first strike, all Dexterity bonuses are nullified for duration of drug effect. bar5 Comedown Negates the effects of all amphetamines in the drug user's system. Amphetamine Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage amp1 Haste Hastes the user, as per the spell of the same name. amp2 Slowtime Sense of time is off - views world as if passing twice as slow, all Dexterity bonuses increased by +2 for 2d6 hours. After dosage wears off, the user must sleep for twice the number of hours that Dexterity was increased. amp3 React User always gains initiative and first strike while drug is in effect. amp4 Nosleep User is able to function without sleep or rest for 24 hours, ignores any exhaustion penalties that might apply. Must rest as per exhaustion rules afterwards. amp5 Comeup Negates the effects of all barbiturates in the drug user's system. Medicinal Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage med1 Nopain Blocks pain, will add +1 to all Constitution-based saves that are not drug related. med2 Healing Restores 1d4 hit points per dose. med3 Cure Disease Functions as per the spell of the same name. med4 Feelgood Restores 2d6 hit points per dose. med5 Freedom Removes all withdrawal symptoms and allows recipient to break free from any one addiction per dosage, but does not prevent re-addiction to the same substance in the future. This is a very rare drug, cultivated only by the high priest of Zargon. Poisons Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage poi1 Rotgut User suffers diarrhoea, vomiting, and excessive dehydration - losing 1d6 hit points per hour until death. poi2 Blackface User's face turns black as all blood vessels in head explode. The increase in blood pressure to brain results in a massive stroke, losing one point of Intelligence per turn until an antidote is taken. If Intelligence is reduced below 75% of the original total, then the loss is permanent. Otherwise, lost Intelligence is regained at one point per week of rest. poi3 Bluetongue The victim's tongue swells to enormous proportions until suffocation occurs (within 2d2 turns). poi4 Rictus Muscle spasms induce heart and lung failure, and the face is contorted into a "grin of death" rictus. Suffering is characterised by jerking motions of body, save vs. Death once per round or die immediately, with the penalty increasing by one per round until death ensues. poi5 Jellybones The bones weaken to point of collapse, while the marrow produces no blood. It is not usually noticeable until the final stages, and is characterised by general weakness and lack of recuperative powers. Recreational Drug Potency Drug Name Effects/Usage rec1 Sharedream Communal dreams are possible if this drug is taken by several people at once; duration is at the discretion of the DM. rec2 Orgiac Sexual enjoyment increases. rec3 Whimsy The world takes on a dreamlike state; -4 to all saves vs. Spells. rec4 Colours The drug user's senses and his or her perception of them are changed: colours are perceived as sounds, sounds as smells, etc. rec5 Creative Used to "enhance" artistic creativity, speeds spell research by a factor of two. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: (Cynidicea) Zargon and other villains ] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: (Cynidicea) Zargon and other villains Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:31:41 -0500 Zargon And Other Villains: Zargon: Contrary to the views of the Zargonites, their patron is not an Immortal, nor is he truly exalted in any way. In truth, Zargon is a greater servitor of the Outer Beings - a creature crafted by their magics to serve as their eyes and ears on the Prime Plane. As such, Zargon is a unique creature; he is not a member of a race, nor is he a supremely powerful being. While he served his masters' cause in Mogreth, Zargon was both a living avatar of the Outer Beings' power, and a conduit through which their powers flowed. It was through him that the Outer Beings' clerics in Mogreth received their spells, and it was he who presided over their dark ceremonies. After Mogreth fell, and Zargon was sealed away, he was forgotten by his masters, who, seeing their dream of an empire devoted to their worship crushed, turned their attention to other plots. Though he was ignored, Zargon still received some measure of the powers granted to him by the Outer Beings, such that he could still grant spells in their name. While imprisoned for those long millennia, Zargon was able to influence the thoughts of susceptible minds in the area, and thus was able to convince humanoids and their ilk to venerate him, and through him the Outer Beings - though his loyalty to his masters was quickly waning. Eventually, as the timeline indicates, Zargon was able to influence the thoughts of impressionable Cynidiceans, and through them began a following in his name. The Church of Zargon arose from this, and, unlike the other followers who worshipped Zargon, the Cynidiceans worship him directly, and not the Outer Beings. Zargon is still able to grant spells to his followers as Immortals do, and in the process he is trying to build up a fanatical following. His ultimate goal is to use his followers to smash the other three factions, and finally unite the Cynidicean people under his rulership. If he ever accomplishes this, he will use his worshippers as pawns to spread the word of his power, by persuasion or by the sword. He not only plans to convert the remaining goblin tribes in the area; he is aware of the existence of the Emirates of Ylaruam, not far above Cynidicea. He remembers the time when he held sway over Mogreth; one day, he will reign supreme over that land again. The one thing that Zargon fears is that, eventually, the Outer Beings will turn their attention to him once more, and realise what he is doing. By building a strong following, he believes he will be able to withstand anything they send his way. Zargon is unaware of Gaius or Barimoor, and has no idea what sort of machinations are being devised by these two potential rivals. Gaius: Gaius is a 28th level lich from the ancient line of Cynidicean kings. His reign was a powerful one, though not necessarily a bad one. He was very much in the tradition of the Nithian "god-kings" of old. In life, he always seemed to assume that his borders extended fantastically beyond the true borders, even to other worlds. But he was also content with the knowledge that all was his and never felt the need to test the theory. His people followed his word, for his word was law and disobedience was death. He encouraged trade with other nations that "The superior taste and culture of the Cynidicean people soothe the barbaric inclinations of other tribes", and always pretended those other nations were "from far beyond the sea". Ambassadors learned to either deal with his megalomaniacal fantasies or they would be ousted quickly. His lichhood was born more of a simple desire for life after death and a strong belief in his own immortality, rather than the costly, painstaking research. His desire and belief was so strong that his life force has continued to sustain him. He still believes that he rules Cynidicea, even though the people have long forgotten him. He would certainly be shocked to learn of their short memories, but not enough to kill them all. He, in fact, believes it is the priests of Zargon who keep his minions from the city, a city his lieutenants would dearly love to feast in. A party of heroes, brought before him, expecting death, would likely instead be given the task of defeating Zargon and his followers. Gaius believes himself to be a beloved, ousted king of the world. He is dimly aware of the Empire of Thyatis which has encroached upon his great kingdom. He is also aware of tunnels and caverns that eventually wind down to the capital of Thyatis itself. But before he invades the city, he needs to re-establish himself as ruler of Cynidicea, that he may command his 10 legions of doom once again (keep in mind that he doesn't quite realise what the current state of Cynidicea is). He is also aware of Barimoor. His crypt tunnels do, in fact, lead to Barimoor's cavern and he has been approached by that mage's minions. Gaius has sent back his reply that an alliance can be possible only if Barimoor himself comes and kneels to him and acknowledges his godhood. Barimoor, being a subtle mage, has not sent reply. Gaius has several lieutenants, among them: Tasetmerydjehuty, a level 20 mage, is actually the newest, and at the same time oldest, of the lieutenants of Gaius. He came mysteriously the day after Efrem, the former 1st lieutenant of Gaius, died in a strange accident (at least it was strange to Gaius, who isn't really aware of what a vampire is) involving a sharp stick, an arrow, which had been used as a makeshift stake by a band of adventurers. In any case, Tasetmerydjehuty came the next day and offered his services to the "Great King beneath the earth Gaius". In actuality, he is an ancient vampire of Nithia and is working on his own designs of taking whatever Gaius gains right from beneath him. Dragan, a level 12 mage, is suspicious of Tasetmerydjehuty but also fears his power. He is loyal to his lord and almost sentimental in his attempts to keep his lord from knowing the true nature of his "kingdom". Lidija, a level 15 mage, hates Dragan and fears Tasetmerydjehuty. She has her own designs and lust for power. Barimoor: Barimoor is one of the most powerful magic users in the region of Ylaruam, though ironically few people know of him. He came to the lands that would one day become Ylaruam from his native Alphatia around AC 200, wishing to distinguish himself from his fellow powerful wizards. Bringing along many apprentices, monsters, and other creatures, he made his way into the Great Alasiyan Basin, the great central desert of modern Ylaruam. Once in the desired spot, he and his entourage summoned elemental beings to build a great underground complex. To this day, he has remained within his personal domain, endlessly questing to become an Immortal in the Sphere of Energy, while his veritable army of 120 apprentices (some of them over 12th level) assist him in his cause. As part of his quest for Immortality, he must become the supreme magic user within a 1,000 mile radius of his stronghold, as well as alter the land for miles around his home. His network of caverns are now home to thousands of humanoids and powerful monsters, some of them otherdimensional, and his own citadel is stockpiled with powerful magical items of all forms. How do Barimoor's ambitions coincide with Cynidicea? Although his stronghold is not near the underground city, he does know of its existence. The great wizard has not had the time to seriously investigate the city, but the very nature of the Cynidiceans, as a group of humans who have "adapted" to live underground, does interest him. He currently sees them as potential pawns, possibly as either labourers or soldiers for his underground empire, and he views their city as a possible repository of magical knowledge which might aid him in his quest. He is also vaguely aware of Zargon, but he does not know who or what this creature is, nor why it wields such influence over the city. A cautious man who leaves nothing to chance, Barimoor will not act on his own against Cynidicea for many decades to come, though he does have a simple spy network within the underground city, mainly to keep tabs on important developments. He would, however, react to any abrupt changes in Cynidicean society. Events such as the destruction of Zargon, the Church of Zargon losing its power, the unification of the three sects opposed to the Zargonites, or the arrival of powerful people (such as the PCs) into the city, will attract the attention of Barimoor's spies. The news will be sent to Barimoor within hours, and he would turn his attention to the new development, but only long enough to determine whether or not it posed a threat to his plans. If the turn of events constituted a threat, Barimoor would likely send some of his servants to Cynidicea to try to influence events so that they turn out more to his liking. The actions taken by these servants could range from the assassination of those people who might influence events, to subtle propaganda to turn the public opinion in a direction Barimoor wishes. Should these subtle machinations be foiled, Barimoor would no doubt direct his energies towards the conquest of Cynidicea, in order to prevent the establishment of any forces hostile to his aims. Taking all of this into account, it is clear that Barimoor is a figure who should remain in the background as much as possible. In fact, the PCs should really not be aware of him at all. Only towards the end of their adventuring careers should they become aware of this wizard of great power. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:10:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Drugs in Cynidicea (delivery devices)] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Drugs in Cynidicea (delivery devices) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:30:46 -0500 Delivery Devices: The Priests of Zargon have not constrained their research to just the manufacturing of new drug types; they have also spent a millennium learning how to effectively distribute drugs to unsuspecting individuals. Some of the methods that they use are listed below. Blowgun A typical blowgun with a dosage of the drug on the tip of the dart. Most often used as a stealthy "from the shadows" attack. Gas Globe Small glass globes filled with a gaseous form of the drug in question. Often used in traps, as the globes are delicate. Dustball A rounded, baked clay type of missile used in slings and catapults, the clay that it is made of is, in fact, a powdered form of the drug. When the missile hits its target, the target must make a save vs. Poison or become affected by the drug used in creating the clay. Common types of drugs used in this manner are sleep drugs, hallucinogenic drugs, and sensory warping drugs. Incense While this might not seem to be an effective way of distributing drugs, it has great effect over large groups of people. Warriors of the Church of Zargon will often use drug incense to increase their strength and dexterity before going into battle. Many carry small snuffboxes full of powdered performance enhancers that they sniff before going into battle. Candles/Torches Most of the candles (and torches) in Cynidicea are laced with one type of drug or another. The effects vary according to the purpose for which the candle was created. Common usages are for inducing sexual orgies, enhancing meditation, and encouraging sleep Cynidicean warriors use drugs to their FULL ADVANTAGE when going into battle. This dates back to ancient times when the Temple Guards would take to the streets at night to acquire food for their deity. Since it was necessary to do so in secret and as stealthily as possible, the use of drugs in the attack and capture was preferred. Often, the victim did not even realise that they were under attack until it was already over. The Temple Warriors each have on his or her person at least one dosage of performance enhancing drugs and an antidote for the drugs that they use in battle. Many an adventurer has been surprised when a Cynidicean warrior throws a torch at him rather than a spear...but soon finds to his dismay that he is paralysed by the fumes from the torch. Naturally, the Cynidicean warrior goes into battle already inoculated with the cure for the specific "combat" drugs that he will use. Warriors serving in the great temple of Zargon are usually encountered in groups of four. Traditionally, two warriors make the initial attack and capture while the other two serve as sentries to warn of discovery. The two sentries are normally armed with slings and sleep dustballs for ranged attacks and short swords coated with a dose of quicktime in order to slow their opponents down if melee becomes necessary. The warriors assigned to make the capture are armed with short swords tipped with quicktime as backup and blowguns with numb darts to make the initial assault. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: (Cynidicea) Interesting places] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: (Cynidicea) Interesting places Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:32:29 -0500 Interesting Places: The Eye of Zargon: Perhaps the most inhospitable place in the cavern of Cynidicea is the great pool of magma known by the Cynidiceans as the Eye of Zargon. No one knows how long it has been there; the oldest surviving records in Cynidicea's archives, dating before the reign of King Alexander, describe it in considerable detail. No matter where one stands within the cavern, a faint red glow is always visible to the west. This natural feature was so named because it greatly resembles Zargon's single red eye. Because of this similarity, the Church of Zargon considers this place to be holy ground, forbidden to all but the most senior clerics. It is here where new senior members of the Church are initiated, and it is here where the two holy days of the Church, which fall on the solstices, are celebrated by those same senior members. What makes the Eye of Zargon unique is that it is the only place where Zargon can be truly destroyed. While he may be killed by physical or magical means, only by throwing his horn into the depths of this fiery pit will he never be able to regenerate. The most senior clerics of the Church are also aware of this, and as a result they long ago made this place taboo to all but the most senior - and thus, the most trustworthy - clerics. Those who are found trespassing in this place, and who have not been destroyed by its guardians, are thrown into the pit. Not wishing to have their spiritual leader destroyed by those who would seek to free Cynidicea, the Church of Zargon has ensured that the Eye is well defended. The natural topography of the cavern has been their ally in this case. The wastelands in which the Eye of Zargon is situated are much higher in elevation than the rest of the cavern - in fact, there are only two ways to reach it. The first way is to scale the sheer walls of the cliffs bordering the wastelands to the north and east, a climb of over 60 feet. If this was not challenging enough, the rockface itself is riddled with cave mouths, all leading deep into the heart of the plateau, in which many tribes of goblinoids live. These goblinoids are loosely allied with the Zargonites, and they are paid to keep watch and ensure no one scales the cliffs. The second way consists of two rock bridges, which arch over a water-filled chasm, an extremely deep part of the underground lake that juts southwards from the main body. These two bridges, each roughly eight feet wide, are guarded by a patrol of ten Cynidicean soldiers (AC 4; HD 2; hp 10 each; MV 120' (40'); #AT 1; D 1d6 (short sword); SV F2; ML 8; AL C), all of whom are fanatically devoted to the Church. They will attack anyone not wearing the robes of a senior cleric of the Church of Zargon, and if attacked one of them will blow a horn to alert other soldiers within the city proper. The wastelands that surround the Eye of Zargon pose another obstacle. It is a veritable maze of stalactites and stalagmites, as well as being full of geysers and boiling pools of mud. It is quite easy to lose one's way on the plateau, and to be seriously injured by exploding bubbles of boiling mud (1d6 damage), or searing clouds of vapour from a geyser (1d6 damage/round). Finally, the bubbling magma of the Eye of Zargon itself is home to a large group of flame salamanders, as well as a powerful efreet. The flame salamanders are natural inhabitants of the region; in fact, they were present long before the Cynidiceans came underground. While these creatures are dangerous on their own, they are led by an ill-tempered efreet, angry about being imprisoned here. Centuries ago, a senior member of the Church of Zargon was taught by her master how to summon an efreet, and bind him. Zargon wished to have powerful guards posted around the Eye itself, capable of surviving the intense heat, so that no one carrying his horn, should he be defeated in battle, could throw it in. The cleric summoned the efreet while standing next to the lava pit, and then cast a powerful binding spell upon him, forbidding him from leaving until he had killed any person or thing, bearing Zargon's horn, who approached the pit. Only when the thief was killed, and the horn returned to the temple, would the efreet be set free. Over the ensuing centuries, no one has been able to kill Zargon, much less bring the horn to the lava pit. Over that time, the efreet has grown angrier and angrier, and now he sometimes encourages the flame salamanders to attack any goblinoids or Zargonites who draw near. The Isle of Death: In the centre of the lake dug by King Alexander there is an island riddled with caves. In its centre there is a group of large dolmens ( megalithic sepulchral monuments ) that existed long before the Cynidiceans arrived. In fact, there has always been an underground lake, but during the great reign of Alexander it was expanded considerably, and new channels were dug through the rock to tap underground rivers. These rivers doubled the size of the lake, raising the water level so much that the Isle was almost submerged during his reign. Not long after the fall of Cynidicea, the survivors built a new city underground, on the lake's eastern shore. In the short period of time since Alexander's death, several earthquakes had passed through the land, altering the courses of many underground rivers. By the time the new city was established, the water level had receded so much that the Isle was visible once again. In an effort to make the underground as habitable as possible, most of the bodies in the upper catacombs beneath the Temple of Zargon were removed to make more space, and their bodies were burned in one massive pyre. The ashes were then ferried to the Isle, and re-buried there. It was not long afterwards that the Isle acquired its modern name. Several months after the burial, activity was noticed on the Isle. Scouts were sent over to investigate, but they did not return. A second expedition went, and it also disappeared. Concerned that the disappearances might weaken their hold on the people, the Zargonites sent some of their own clerics to see what was happening. These people survived, and upon returning they reported that large numbers of undead were present on the Isle, and it was these creatures who killed the two previous scouting parties. Realising that the new city of Cynidicea was safe as long as the undead remained trapped on the Isle, the Zargonites simply passed a declaration that the Isle of Death, as it was becoming known, was forbidden to all. The evil clerics believed that the presence of the Cynidiceans on the Isle was what awakened the undead, and that if they left the Isle alone the undead would become dormant once again. This resolution did not satisfy everyone, and some brave souls made the journey to the Isle to see what secrets might lie hidden there. Rumours, passed down for generations from those who first visited the island under Alexander's reign, said that the ring of stones contain great power. Some folk tales, from unknown sources, claimed that the ring of stones was actually a gateway to other realities - a great nexus point where one could travel to far-off lands and times if they knew the proper incantations. Other tales also abounded - of the strange tombs that lay hidden in the caves of the Isle, with their strange writings and withered corpses that did not look entirely human. Those who went to the Isle, and returned, confirmed some of these tales. The caves are indeed tombs, dug out millennia before by the human slaves of the rulers of Mogreth. The region which is now occupied by Cynidicea was once used as a royal burial chamber for one of the minor noble families of Mogreth during that empire's heyday. Whenever a noble died, many of his or her favourite slaves were killed after the body was interred, so that the departed noble would have servants in the afterlife. The murdered slaves were buried in mass graves on the Isle, not far from the ring of stones. As these bodies were being buried, mouldering skeletons were found already lying in the graves. The bodies were buried there anyway. As for the stones themselves, they stood in this cavern before even Mogreth came to be. In those ancient times, the great cave was inhabited by primitive men who lived on what is now the lake bed. They had only one Immortal, but they also paid homage to their ancestors. Their religious meeting place was the ring of stones, constructed by their ancestors when they first arrived in the cave. All their ceremonies where celebrated at the ring, and under the guidance of their shamans they could talk to their ancestors, for the stones acted as a gateway to the spirit world. Over the years the shamans had preached there would come a time when all of their people would meet again in a new life where would be no want or suffering. One day, a deadly plague struck the cavern, killing the tribesmen in their hundreds. One by one they were entombed on the hilly rise that would become the Isle, to serve for eternity as guardians of their most sacred place, but also in order to allow them to reach the spirit world with a minimum of effort. As for what happened to the last of the lost people, no one knows, though ancient carvings can still be found in the midst of the ring of stones showing a great pilgrimage under the stars, leading west. While the Zargonites believe that the Cynidiceans awakened the undead, this is not true. The undead are becoming restless because of the steadily lowering water level of the lake, which is disturbing their rest. As the years passed, more caves became visible, and more undead arose. In fact, the lake itself is a sort of giant water clock, counting the passing years. Its falling level is due partially to reduced water intake from underground rivers, and partially to ancient spells woven by long-dead shamans of the lost human tribe who lived here so long ago. They had enchanted the entire hill which constitutes the Isle, imploring upon their Immortal so that nothing should destroy or obscure their most sacred place of worship, even after their people were long forgotten. The lake will continue falling over time until the entire hill is exposed, with more undead awakening all the while. By that time, there will be a land bridge connecting the Isle to Cynidicea. Obviously, if such a thing were to come to pass, Cynidicea would soon be faced with an invasion of undead. Only a party of brave adventurers could save the city. Stopping the drainage of the lake will prove an almost impossible feat, and damaging the ring would be very difficult because it will be guarded by the awakened undead. Nevertheless, resourceful adventurers should be able to find a way to eliminate the undead menace, or otherwise return them to their rightful rest. The Lower Catacombs: The lower catacombs are a vast network of winding tunnels and caverns, apparently with no end. When King Alexander had the lake dug out as a water supply for the old city of Cynidicea, he commissioned explorers to investigate the network of caverns that went even deeper into the earth. While some explorers did not return, those who did said that the caverns and tunnels seemed to go on forever, and that there was always an oppressive feeling of dread. Feeling that the place was evil, Alexander had the pit leading into the lower catacombs closed off, with a sturdy building erected around the sealed entrance, to ensure that whatever existed down below would not easily escape, and so that it would be difficult for anyone to get down there. Since he planned to send other expeditions down there in the future, Alexander did not have the lower catacombs closed off permanently; instead, he had an intricate system of winches and pulleys placed within the building so that the huge stone slab could be lifted if desired. There are, in fact, many things of interest in the lower catacombs. Perhaps the most important, and most dangerous, feature of this place is the lair of Gaius. This enterprising lich has built his lair in one of the side caverns here, not far from the entrance to the upper catacombs. It is here where he keeps his undead minions, and where he foments his plans. Though he knows a great deal about what is to be found here, there are many areas where even he will not go. Gaius, and his undead minions, are not the only inhabitants of these caverns. Deep into the cave system, roughly 20 miles south of Cynidicea, the tunnels and caves open up into one great cavern, almost 40 miles long and 25 miles wide. The entire cavern is filled with a bluish phosphorescent moss, which grows so dense that the lighting is roughly similar to that of the early evening on the surface. The cave roof, 200 feet overhead, almost looks like a "sky" of sorts, due to its colour. The cave floor is mostly covered by a brackish swamp, broken only by islands of rocky earth, which are themselves often festooned with fungi of all sorts. The air reeks of decaying fungal matter, and opaque mists often cover the swamp like a blanket. This unpleasant place is the home of the sha'krzheth (SHACH kerZHETH), the remnants of the once-great lizard man tribes that ruled southeastern Brun before the rise of other races in the region. It was a branch of these lizard men who helped found Mogreth long ago. After the collapse of Mogreth, the rise of humanity in the region, and the Great Rain of Fire not long afterwards, the ancestors of the sha'krzheth fled underground, retreating ever deeper as the cataclysms above continued to wreak havoc. Eventually, they were unable to retrace their route, and so they continued wandering for many years. Finally, after over fifty years, they came upon this cavern, and have remained here ever since. A simple people, the sha'krzheth live a simple hunter-gatherer existence - fishing in the swamps and deeper waters for blind fish and eels, and gathering the various edible fungi and algae to supplement their diet. Most of these lizard men live in caves dug into the walls of the cavern, effectively small villages of between 50 and 100 lizard men. Having no metal, the sha'krzheth have learned how to cure the stalks of certain large mushrooms, which, when hardened, are as rigid as wood. These stalks are then carved into simple spear shafts and fishing hooks. Due to their long years underground, the sha'krzheth are albinos - with white scaly skin and large pink, or red, eyes. Living a simple life, these lizard men have little need for anything outsiders could offer them, but woe to the fool who tries to take anything away from them, or harms one of their number. They seldom worship any known Immortals, though Ka is acknowledged by them. Far to the east, the caverns and tunnels of the lower catacombs are home to vast numbers of black puddings, grey oozes, and ochre jellies, which normally subsist on the lichens and mosses that grow in the ever-present dampness, as well as each other. Should explorers come their way, these creatures would need little encouragement to devour them. Some of these specimens are very large - as much as three or four times the size of those encountered closer to the surface. Perhaps the most fearsome inhabitant of these caverns is Chogath, a Burrower who has been awakened, but remains unable to move. His domain lies many miles to the northwest of Cynidicea, and over 500 feet deeper into the earth. With no sentient creatures living nearby, Chogath occupies his time by pondering how he will exact his revenge on the Immortals who imprisoned him here so long ago. Gaius is aware of Chogath, and he does not dare go near the creature, preferring to stay clear of the creature's plots. Perhaps the most important feature of the lower catacombs is the fact that they are home to the night lotus, a flower found nowhere else, save for the odd cavern in the Shadowelven territories. This delicate white flower grows only on mossy boulders in absolute darkness, near pools of water. It is a rather large flower, measuring roughly six inches across, with long, thin petals. The night lotus is always found in the presence of the fungus that is used to manufacture the drug used by the Cynidiceans, although only the fungus is found near the city. The night lotus is special because its pollen, when consumed, will counteract the effects of the fungus. The caverns in which this plant is found contain their own perils, namely, large groups of dusanu, who enjoy the relative dampness of the region. Because of the presence of these creatures, the caverns in which the night lotus is found are almost invariably filled with large amounts of fungal matter. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: (Cynidicea) Scenarios] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: (Cynidicea) Scenarios Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:33:06 -0500 Scenarios: Against the Lich King: This scenario is intended for use over the long term. In fact, it assumes that the PCs are not spending all of their time in and around Cynidicea, but that they voyage to other lands and have other adventures, only to return here periodically. This plot centres around Gaius, the former ruler of Cynidicea who has since become a lich, and his machinations. Here is a suggestion as to how to run B4, and incorporate the lich as a slowly growing menace, until the PCs finally face him in a confrontation. Along with each stage of the plot, the lich's reaction and possible actions will be suggested. 1. Getting Started During the basic levels (1-3), run B4 (the upper levels of the adventure, that is, the buried pyramid), and then have them go into undercity of Cynidicea and explore it. They should learn about Cynidicean culture, a bit of its history, and they should begin to clue in that Zargon is a major villain who must be destroyed if the Cynidiceans are to prosper once again. During this time they might also run afoul of the goblinoids living in the crags beyond the Eye of Zargon. You should try to prevent them from fighting Zargon at all costs; he is simply too powerful for even a party of 3rd-level PCs to beat, not without heavy losses, at any rate. One way of doing this is to simply make his lair impossible to find until they find the required information - perhaps a fragmentary legend, or something else. For his own part, Gaius ignores the PCs, believing them to be yet another party of surface-worlders who found their way to Cynidicea by accident. His servants will keep tabs on the PCs, but they will not interfere with their actions. 2. The PCs Learn More By the time the PCs have reached the expert levels (4-14), they should be reasonably well-acquainted with Cynidicea and its environs. This would be a good time, if they have not done so already, to return to the surface and seek out other adventures, possibly keeping an eye open for more clues about Cynidicea. As DM, you may wish to reward their research by leaving them with fragmentary records of a "lost city", or vague references to a "tentacled idol of utmost evil". In any case, they should begin to clue in that Zargon is indeed a creature of utter evil. The PCs, armed with more information, could then return to Cynidicea, and seek out more information about Zargon, such as the location of his lair. The PCs can then explore the lower levels of the sunken pyramid, and ultimately fight Zargon. You may wish to provide them with the information as to how to permanently destroy Zargon, or you could make this into another quest requiring a great deal of adventuring. Should they take an extremely long time, Zargon might be regenerated by the time they return, forcing them to fight him again! Towards the end of the expert levels, you may also wish for the PCs to learn of a possible way to cure the Cynidiceans of their drug addiction. By this time, especially if they have killed Zargon, Gaius will have taken notice of the PCs. At first, he will likely see them as potential tools in his own quest for power. Even at this stage, he will only order his servants to observe the PCs, reporting on their progress. 3. Gaining Power By the time the PCs enter the companion levels (15-25), they should have made several trips to and from Cynidicea. Ideally, if they have permanently destroyed Zargon, they should be trying to find a way to destroy the Church of Zargon itself, since it still rules the undercity with an iron fist. They should know by now that one Church uses drugs to help maintain their control over the populace (though they are also victims of addiction), and that if the drugs were neutralised, Cynidicea could be revitalised and the Church's power destroyed. It is at this time that the PCs should start hearing of the legendary night lotus, a pale white flower which could neutralise the effects of the drugs. You could then run the scenario given below, which deals closely with eliminating the effects of the drug upon the populace. This will involve going into the Lower Caverns, which are currently sealed to prevent those living below from threatening the city. Gaius will see the PCs as a potential threat by now, especially if they are actively fighting the Church of Zargon, and seeking a way to restore Cynidicea to its former glory. He will send out his lesser servants, such as wraiths, spectres, and possibly vampires, to try to eliminate the PCs. 4. Success Is Near Once the PCs have attained master level (26-36), they should have made many trips through the region, and be well-acquainted with Cynidicea. They should also have a great deal of notoriety among the Cynidiceans themselves, especially if they have vanquished the Church of Zargon, and found the night lotus. There might even be talk of one or more PCs becoming the new rulers of the city. If they truly care about the Cynidiceans, they should be actively aiding them in rebuilding their culture. Gaius will now see the PCs as a definite threat, something to be dealt with as soon as possible. Initially, he will likely send his greater servants against them (druj, revenants, etc.), and in the end he will likely try to eliminate them himself, unleashing his full power on them. This will no doubt attract Barimoor's attention, as the discharge of magic will be proof to him that there is another spellcaster nearby who might thwart his own chances at Immortality. He might very well travel to where the PCs are fighting Gaius, and attack the lich as well! This could turn into a dramatic three-way battle in Gaius' lair, where all parties are fighting each other in a mad attempt to come out on top. The PCs should also know of Barimoor as well by this time, if they have spent a great deal of time in and around Ylaruam. Thus, they may see this as a chance to eliminate Barimoor, or otherwise do great damage to his plans. In the end, the PCs should come out on top, and Gaius should be destroyed, possibly Barimoor as well. With the last great menace to Cynidicea defeated, the way stands clear for a full resurgence of the city and its people, with the PCs at the helm. 5. The Ultimate Reward If the PCs manage to attain Immortality, they could easily join Gorm, Madarua, and Usamigaras in the Cynidicean pantheon. Their names will be spoken reverently for centuries to come, and their deeds will join many others in the annals of Cynidicea's heroes. If they achieve this, no doubt the PCs will wish to keep an eye on Cynidicea and its doings, subtly guiding it towards ever greater achievements. As to what shape the "new" Cynidicea might be in, that is up to you and the players, but it should be an infinitely better place than it was when the PCs first arrived there, so long ago. The Cleansing of Cynidicea: The focus of this scenario is of learning about the drug-induced madness that is afflicting the Cynidiceans, and uncovering the means of bringing about a cure. This campaign is far looser than the one given above, and it can be as long or as brief as the DM and players wish it to be. There is also no set starting level range recommended, though higher-level PCs will obviously have a much easier time of it. 1. Setting the Stage To introduce this scenario, the first portion of B4 should be played out. Have the PCs encounter the Cynidiceans, and become either suspicious of, or curious about, their erratic behaviour. Of the course of the adventure, the PCs should learn what is causing the Cynidiceans' erratic behaviour, and they should start wondering if there might be a cure for it. 2. Discoveries Over the course of continued adventures, the PCs begin to piece together the history of Cynidicea, and soon learn that the Zargonites are the ones who originally introduced the drugs to the populace. This could then spur them to infiltrate the Zargonites' main temple, or attack it outright, in the hopes of uncovering more information about the drugs that are used. Depending on how well the PCs' efforts turn out, and how well they planned their actions in the first place, they should be able to at least identify the drug (or drugs) being used on the populace. They should also obtain hints as to the existence of a possible antidote for the drug effects. The information the PCs gain here should either lead to a small quest to discover what this antidote might be, or they might have to seek out someone who knows. If the latter, this could be a sage, a high-ranking druid, or an ancient scroll hidden deep within the pyramid, or buried under the sands. 3. Finding the Cure Eventually, the PCs should learn that the night lotus is the source of an antidote to the drug (or a remedy for the most powerful drug if several are being used). They should also have a rough idea where it can be found (the Lower Catacombs). This stage consists of mounting an expedition deep within the labyrinthine caverns beneath Cynidicea in search of the strange flower. This can take as long as desired, as the night lotus grows only in caverns containing certain features, with just the right amount of moisture. Along the way, the PCs can encounter a wide range of subterranean monsters. Ultimately, however, they should find some, and be able to bring a few samples back. At this stage, several powerful enemies (such as the Zargonites, or possibly Gaius) should be aware of the PCs' activities, and should be taking steps to either hinder or destroy them. Even though the PCs have the means to counter the effects of the drug, they still do not know how to use the flower. This could very well be the beginning of a second quest - one which could lead to another foray into the Lower Catacombs, or possibly into the outer world, in search of an elusive wizard or sage who could provide them with the knowledge they need - for a price. 4. Removing the Taint By now, the PCs should not only have advanced several levels since first entering Cynidicea; they should also be well-versed in Cynidicean history. They should know who introduced the drugs to the populace (the Zargonites), and why they did so (to make the populace more docile). Once the required actions have been taken, the slow reversal of the drug's (or drugs') effects should take place. This could take weeks, months, or even years, and the Zargonites will certainly try to reverse the PCs' gains. In their desperation, they could even try to fully free Zargon from his prison by locating and destroying the remaining electrum disks, or they could call upon their own resources to destroy the PCs once and for all. This could lead into an epic battle, one that will determine who shall rule Cynidicea - the Zargonites, or a new order. If the PCs win, the Zargonites' power base will be drastically reduced, and possibly eliminated within the city. Those who remain could set up bases among the goblinoids, or retreat into the Lower Catacombs. If Zargon is fully freed, and destroyed by the PCs, then the Zargonites will be effectively eliminated as a group, since their master has been killed. DMs may wish to have the Zargonites survive, and remain as an organisation devoted to the destruction of the PCs - some may even follow them to the surface out of rage, and become assassins. If the PCs lose, but survive, they could rally a core group of supporters to lead a guerrilla campaign against the Zargonites, who, although victors, would likely be reduced in power. This could still lead to a victory for the PCs, but one that takes longer to achieve. In either case, the victorious PCs will find a role in Cynidicea during its long and difficult period of recovery. If they have campaigned here extensively, they will likely be regarded as liberators, as well as possible rulers to protect the city. How Cynidicea develops afterwards is up to the PCs, but, should they desire it, they are well-placed to restore it to its former glory, and ensure themselves a legacy. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:30:11 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Cynidicean History (BC 5500-AC 0)] In-Reply-To: <200011281851.NAA16789@freenet10.carleton.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Geoff Gander wrote: > > BC 1530: The Nithians invade and conquer Neathar tribes living along the > sea coasts of their realm. Some manage to escape the invasion, and these > flee southwards, some moving into what is now Nicostenia and Dythestenia, > and others moving even further south into what is now Thyatis. > > BC 1500: The Neathar tribes conquered by the Nithians, who call themselves > the Traldar, are forcibly resettled in what is now Karameikos. They had > proven themselves difficult to govern, and the empire does not have the > resources to bring them fully to heel at this time. It is hoped that they > can tame the wilderness, allowing the Nithians to move in later to assert > control. > > This period also marks the beginning of the Nithian Empire. > > BC 1400: The Traldar, due to circumstance, are devastated by poor climate, > disease, and animal attacks. The resulting population losses mean that they > cannot maintain their current technological level, and they regress to an > agrarian state. > I like this idea, as it makes more sense than that a more advanced society would regress as much as the Traldar did; making them only recently yanked out of this level by the Nithians makes it more plausible they could lose these skills. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:47:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Young Duke Stefan (story, long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a version of events I've made up for the LG version of young Duke Stefan. Hope you enjoy. -Auld Skald =============================== Young Stefan (The Good Version) =============================== Seneschal to Duke Stefan: I've been receiving reports of "Thyatian atrocities," Sire, from several of the unmapped villages and homesteads. I plan to handle it, of course, but I thought you should know. Duke Stefan Karameikos: Ah? What sort of atrocities? Seneschal: Reading between the lines, wholesale theft of property and unlawful eviction seem to be the majority of the claims. Duke: Those are serious charges. Are there many such accusations? Seneschal: Well, there /are/ several of these reports, but so far they are sparse in relation to the number of land grants you've made. Duke: Even so, I think it bears serious investigation, Alexius. Carry it forward, have copies of those reports sent to me directly, and keep me apprised. Seneschal: Of course, your Grace. Duke: Now, I understand such an investigation could take time. What's your opinion on the matter, given what you know? Is there something you think should be done right now? Seneschal: I advise moving slowly, Sire, before taking these reports at face value. It could be exaggeration. I can imagine that if a local farmer had planned to expand into neighbouring land, even if he hadn't started developing it he might already /think/ of it as his own land. A grant-holder exercising his grant there could have such an accusation levelled at him. It wouldn't be fair to take his grant away for such a thing, and it would be inadvisable to force all of the accused to move, if that was the basis of the accusation. You would certainly be seen as arbitrary. Duke: Very well. We shall proceed as you suggest, cautiously and fairly. I suppose a little friction was to be expected. Once everyone settles in as neighbours, I'm sure it'll work itself out. Confidentially, I'm inclined to think these Traladarans are making a fuss just to see if they can get something from me. Testing the new ruler, so to speak. The Traladarans are opportunists, you know, just like anyone in the Empire. The Marilenev rebellion certainly showed that! Still, I'll reserve judgement until your investigation concludes. Was there anything else? [Other business and the audience ends with the usual niceties.] [Weeks or months later ...] Seneschal: Your Grace, I have an update on those charges of Thyatian atrocities. Duke: Yes? I've been reading the reports. How accurate are they? Seneschal: They are all quite exaggerated, and some have been outright false, but unfortunately several of them have a grain of truth. It seems a minority of those with land grants have used them to seize Traladaran properties. Duke: What?! That's not part of the mandate they were given! Land grants are for /unowned/ lands. I wrote the draft for those land grants myself! Seneschal: Ah, it seems that clause was missing from these particular land grants. Duke (Wheels obviously turning in his head, thinking aloud): These people have to be rounded up. Things like this cannot be allowed to go on. Seneschal: It might be unwise to simply arrest them, Sire. The grant-holders are practically all soldiers or ex-soldiers. You would be undermining the loyalty of your own battalions, laying the grounds for mutiny. And, if the Traladaran families discover you are without the full support of your armies ... . Duke (bitterly): Anarchy. At best, Thincol's legions will come and seize the country, I will lose my Duchy, and the Traladarans are no better off than they were before, only they will likely set themselves up for a very hurtful defeat by the legions. Seneschal: Actually, I don't think the Emperor would do that ... Duke: You don't know Thincol. He may be my friend, but he doesn't suffer fools, and he will take any opportunity to improve the Empire's lot. If that means taking back an unstable country on his border, he'll do it. Seneschal: With respect, Sire, that's not what I meant. I mean that there are far more Traladarans now than when we conquered them 70 years ago. If they take Specularum and are given time to put up a spirited defense, I doubt that the Emperor would go to the effort to reconquer it. He has the means, but it's expended on the Isle of Dawn, right now. By the time he moves the legions back, the cost of taking the land back might not be worth the revenue it would generate. Duke: You may be right. But what you haven't considered is that he sees political significance to having a secure border, especially now, and Thincol is a fighter first and a polititian second. Besides, I don't trust the Senate to look after our interests, either. But, nevermind. You were saying I cannot take the false land grants away, now that they have been established, and you are probably right. Damn! Alright, here's what to do. First, ensure that no more of these grant abuses occur. I know, they are probably mostly handed out, but do what you can. For those grants that have not been exercised, yet, revise them as necessary and make it clear to the battalion commanders that if they support one more of these heists, their head is on the block. In fact, if you can find evidence of acting beyond the mandate of the decrees supposedly in my name, bring them up on charges. I doubt you will, but perhaps an active investigation will make them put more thought into their actions, instead of simply giving patronage to their fellows. Also, see if you can discover whether those misused land grant documents were forged or just miscopied. It might not matter at this point, but I want to know so we can take better precautions. Lastly, see what you can do for compensating the injured parties without bankrupting the Treasury and without creating unrest in the military. We're spending a lot of taxes on building right now, so perhaps you can creatively hire these people to ensure they have a livlihood, for example. They might be willing to move to Kelvin, Threshold, or Halag, where things are going to be growing soon. If giving them compensatory land grants is the way to go, then do so. You get the idea? Just use your best judgement. [More weeks or months later] Seneschal: I have another update on the reports of Thyatian atrocities, Sire. Duke (gruffly): Good news, I trust? Seneschal: Ah, there is good news and bad news. Which do you want to hear first? Duke (with a steely look): Lord Korrigan, just give it to me in whatever order makes sense. Seneschal (chastened): Yes, your Grace. Well, the good news is that the grant- holders situation now seems to be under control. There is widespread distrust of Thyatians in general, but the Traladarans are unlikely to revolt, now, and there is a growing feeling with them that you are making an effort to be fair. Duke: And? Seneschal: Well, I didn't mention it before, but I'm sure you're aware cousin Ludwig was on the list of those accused of atrocities. Duke: Yes, of course. It said that he conquered the people of Halag, stole their lands, made them homeless, and other ridiculous statements. He was one of those that were exonerated, of course. Seneschal: Your Grace, respectfully, not yet, I'm afraid. Duke: Well, he didn't steal their lands, he's just their new ruler. That's not conquering! They've been a conquered people for generations, no matter how a remote fishing village feels. Seneschal: If I may, Sire? Duke (impatiently vexed): Yes? Seneschal: I took the liberty of hiring an elven adventurer to go investigate, because I had stopped receiving reports of any kind from the Black Eagle barony ... even regular status reports. It seems, your Grace, that when Baron Von Hendricks landed there he attacked the village of Halag with his army, and practically razed it. Duke: Oh, wonderful. Great Immortals! Didn't the locals in his barony realise an uprising against him would be futile? They're only a village, and he came with a garrison! And, true to Hattian form, he probably humiliated them. Seneschal: Shall I go on? Duke: There's more? Seneschal: Ahem. After that, he conscripted most of the able- bodied population to help build a castle. Duke: Really? I didn't think he had the money to undertake such a project immediately. I expected he would start with a wooden fort. Seneschal: Respectfully, sir, my agent said he conscripted them. That is, he doesn't pay them nor, apparently, feed them. According to her, he uses them like slaves and poorly treated ones at that. Seneschal: Well, that's an exaggeration if I ever heard one. Everyone knows I've declared slavery illegal in this country. And, elves have a very different idea about how much work is reasonable. Seneschal: Yes, your Grace, I know. Anyway, apparently, the castle is already complete, and he's renamed Halag "Fort Doom." Duke: "Fort Doom?" Hmph. Always with the drama, he is. It's not that bad out there, even if it does border a swamp in places. Seneschal: She also said the people told her the Baron keeps a large number of prisoners in his dungeon there. Duke: Well, your elf obviously doesn't understand the idea of service in lieu of taxes. "Prisoners." "Slaves." Really. Alright, so I'm getting the picture. He came in, they rose up against him, some homes and property were damaged in the insurrection. After it was put down, he had the people help construct a castle, and some of the people stay on as servants. Seneschal: Perhaps, Sire, but my agent told me those people taken to the castle were held hostage in exchange for their family's complicity. Duke: That can't be accurate. We've both known Ludwig since we were children; he would never do such a thing. It sounds to me that each family offers to have someone work at the castle to pay taxes in kind, and they probably get room and board. Seneschal: Hmm. Still, there have already been reports from the village of Luln of people escaping the region of Black Eagle barony, as he's called it. These refugees say that goblinoids walk the streets of Halag with impunity. And, Sire, the elven agent I hired actually saw men there speaking to bugbears. They were being friendly. Duke: Now, that's a problem of a different kind. If even /some/ Traladarans are willing to cut deals with goblins, we could have a serious problem brewing. That's something I really wouldn't have expected of them given the general Traladaran attitude from the Song of Halav. I want you to send another investigator to go out there and get a better picture of what's going on. Make it someone that won't be obviously confused by normal Thyatian conduct, too. An officer of the ranks would be best. In fact, I want to approve of the next agent that goes, to ensure his loyalty and impartiality. You can bring me a shortlist in the morning. Send him under the pretext of some regular business, but make sure whatever reason you choose allows him to leave by noon tomorrow. Send him with some royal correspondence requesting a reply from Ludwig while you're at it. I want his view of things, too. And, give the messenger a carrier pigeon to take along so we can get a quick report back. Seneschal: Yes, Sire. Actually, I think I have some officers to short list already in mind. You'll have that short list to look at by dinner. [more niceties, etc.] [Two weeks later] Seneschal: Duke Stefan, there has been no reply from our agent in Black Eagle. He should have returned by now, even if the pigeon hasn't. Duke: So, we have heard nothing? That's very bad. Something more is going on out there than we know. Ask the Minister of Defense to spare some troops to go look into the matter. Seneschal: Yes, Sire. [A few weeks later] Seneschal enters with a battered, and obviously recently Healed soldier - a sergeant. Seneschal: Sire, this soldier has a report. Just tell his Grace what you told me. Soldier: Sir. I mean, Sire. I was part of the detail sent to investigate Black Eagle barony. Shortly after we left the village of Luln, we were attacked by a superior force composed of men, bugbears, orcs and other goblinoids. They seemed to know we were coming as they employed a well- prepared pincer attack ambush. The officers were especially targetted and all were killed in action, sir, primarily to crossbow-fire. Panic ensued as command broke down, and our forces scattered. I don't know how many survived. Seneschal: Is there anything else you can tell us? Soldier (grim-faced, reluctantly): No, my lord, just that we were routed. I tried to hold my platoon together, but there were too many, and I think we chose to flee too late. Sire, I know it goes against the chain of command to ask, since you are not my commanding officer, but I respectfully request to be transferred to the western garrisons. Your Grace, I lost my entire command and all of my superior officers. I hope you understand. Duke: Yes, I think I do. Thank-you. I will consider your request. Soldier: Duke: Of all the Holy Immortals, Alexius, this makes the Marilenev uprising look like just another day in the Senate! Transfer some more men to the western forts, and have the Minister of Defense summoned. While you're at it, have a quick word with him and see if that sergeant can be part of the transfer order. After that, ask the other ministers to meet us in two hours' time. And send word to the other barons. If there's any chance this can happen in any of the other frontier baronies, they need to be warned. Seneschal: Of course. And, I've already sent a runner to inform the Minister of Defense. He should be arriving shortly. Duke: You know, it's a good thing Ludwig built his castle so quickly; he's probably under siege right now. Goblins don't have the discipline to keep up a proper siege, so he will probably break it himself, but he wouldn't have had a chance without it. Seneschal: You're probably right, Sire. I'd better go arrange the Ministers' meeting and have messages sent to the Barons. You know, I've said it before, Stefan, but I really mean it: I don't envy you. [exeunt] ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Ludwig the storm soldier? (+ other things) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some thoughts on the canon references regarding the black eagle and attitudes of people about it. PGtT pg 19 Thyatian attitudes: "we are not conquering the world but civilizing it" Thus serves to explain Stefan and other thyatians conquer, and see it as good. I think it is good, I agree it is debatable, and you could easily dissagree. Hattian attitudes: "We are the greatest race to ever be; a promise made to one of a lessor race is not really a promise;" "The Thyatian empire will one day be the Hattian empire." Sounds like a Nazi-like scheme to me. I think this is a evil attitude. It is definately worth noting the similaraties between this and the black eagle, esspecally given the black eagle is from Hattias. PGtT pg 25 Storm Soldiers: "Hattian warriors and knights that fight for Hattian supremacy, racial-purity, and surpression of women. They are a hate society esspecally powerful on the island of hattias." "All members (except those in covert or spy roles) must wear black uniforms with the gold storm soldiers lightning bolt insignia all the time." "Storm Soldiers who adventure often recieve orders to betray, steal from, or spy on their allies." Ludwig's wife stayed on Hattias when he left... This is a possible explanation. Does Ludwig have ties to the storm soldiers, I think it is quite likely. Maybe a rival faction. He could be ensuring that the expanded empire is still under the hattian influence. Also note that the black eagle always wears black, not that that proves anything. Also somehow the black eagle has a f24 for an army general and a F20 for a captian, who don't seem to be detailed. When Ludwig is only 16th level. Surport from Hattias perhaps? PGtT pg 16: duchys "are semi-autonomus of rule" pwa1 pg 46 :"...a semi-autonomus dominion, the black eagle barony. It is ruled by stefans black sheep cousin, the baron ludwig von hendricks. He has been a major source of irritation for the last four decades" Three things here, an idea about what semi-autonomus is from a designers point of view, and thus an idea of the independance that the black eagle has (weather he should or not). The fact that he is a "black sheep" indicating that IMO no one else in the family is much like him. Given he maintains control and surport for his rule for a long time by ploting and terrorizing people, I would say stefan and his family are very different from him as illistrated by this and that it is in their attitudes towards others. Thirdly he "He has been a major source of irritation for the last four decades." It is a general statement, not acknowledging that stefan knows, but that he probally knows there are problems arround Halag, but he doesn't neccecarally want to associate his cousin with the cause of those problems. pwa1 pg 46 :"there are many frictions between the thyatians and the traldarans, but increasingly they are comming to think of themselves as a single nation; this is largely because of the policies of duke stefan. Despite the policies of many of his nobles, who see the traldarans as a work resource to be used for maximum profit, Stefan has enforced many laws to ensure traldaran equality." Of which the black eagle is clearly one, probally the worst, but not the only noble stefan has problems with. IMO removing them all quickly could cause a thyatian revolt against him, and that is his original power base pwa1 pg144 Stefan: "He is gruff and very candid (often rude) of speach." "he is fair and even handed, but unable to acknoledge evil in members of his own family." pwa2 pg 45 : "Ludwig ruled his barony with an iron fist, encouraged humanoids to immigrate into his dominion, and even instigated raids into surounding lands. For decades stefans inability to believe such stories of his relitives protected the baron from reprisals. But in AC1010 a group of halflings kidnapped King Stefan and took him on a surprising tour of the black eagle barony." stefans "inability to believe such stories" about ludwig is the problem. A serious character flaw. Does it make him evil? IMO no. Bad ruler? IMO no. Needs a kick in the head? IMO, yes. IMO It is also clear that there has been a desire to retaliate from others or the statement that stefans denial "protected the baron from reprisals" would not be neccecary. He *does* IMO have a problem accepting the facts. PGtT pg 9: Efficency: "it is true that the empire loves to do things in the most efficent manor possible. Wars of revenge are discouraged; wars of conquest and raids for booty are encouraged." Thyatians will "analise any situation in terms of efficency. If what is going on is not efficent, he'll probally offer a cold, heartless, efficent, alternative." With these in mind it is IMO a cultural issue thayt leads to the below happening: "King Stefan quickly renounced his cousin's title and did nothing to discourage halfling forces from marching into the barony to exact retribution for the barons raids on the five shires." This *is* efficent, which to thyatians efficency is good. pwa1 pg 230 Eirmont 15: Stefan is kidnapped by halfling heroes "determined to show King Stefan what he doesn't want to believe." They "do nothing more then show him conditions within the barony. Stefan Karameikos will finally have to come to grips with just what sort of monster his cousin von hendriks really is." PC sergestion: "thay'll catch up to Stefan Karameikosas he's realizing what acctually goes on in the barony." Stefan doesn't want to "believe" and it is not till this that he starts "realizing what acctually goes on in the barony." pwa1 pg231 Eirmont 23: Stefan "grimly declares sanctions against the Black Eagle Barony" "Trade ceases between Karameikos and the barony" "stefan anounces that he is revoking the black eagle baronial status. He declares von Hendricks a common citizen of Karameikos and declares that the kingdom will not protect the barony from well deserved acts of retribution - even from other nations. He invites nobles and heroes interested in gaining the rulership of the Black Eagle Barony to appear before him and present their case." "Stefan Karameikos, as vengeful as he has ever been, has just set up ludwig von hendricks to be destroyed." One word: Efficency. IMO He is clearly looking for a solution, especally one that will not weaken his own position. Is this evil? IMO no. This is based on the assumption he is *good* for the country and weakening his position of power invites people who may not be *good* for the country to try to take power, which would in general be bad. pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24: Stefan reminds the new nobles that their dominions must obey the kings law. There are to be no forced removals of fumans from the areas, and humans moving voluntaraly from the new elven dominions must be compensated fairly for the lands they leave behind." This sounds like it is fair to all, not just seeking advantages from imigrants. pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24: "The black eagle barony has been a thorn in stefan's side since he became aware of his cousin's abuses there." Canon say's he was not "aware of his cousin's abuses there." at some point, I would sergest when he was kidnapped he became aware. However it is also stated that "he procrastinated after he knew that Ludwig had pillaged Halag." Which does not say that he took or didn't take action, just he paused before taking any which would have given the black eagle time to get the upper hand. It is clear that any action he may have took was also ineffective and useless at this time anyway because there was no effect if any action was taken. He didn't want/was unable to believe this act or any others and thus did not realize the scale of such atrocities. pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24:The new baron he apointed cause "he hopes can solve these problems (the black eagle baronies) in short order." Which say's to me he does not like the problems that have been happening, and IMO good because an indifferent/evil person would not be so worried about solving the problems because it is not of particular interest for personal gain, and much more a desire to see others better off. pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24: some Humanoids driven from the black eagle took sanctuary in other parts of the duchy (definately in Achelos) The problem was not all solved by the removal of the black eagle. pwa2 pg178 Nuwmont 18: "Lazlo Manolescu, the karameikian ambassador to the five shires, objects to both the shortness of the trial and to the means of execution" stefan "claims no interest in the matter of his(ludwig's) fate" The goblin shaman "hope's to use Ludwig's knowledge of humankind and his leadership ability to good advantage (the black eagle kept a large number of huminoid under strict control for a number of decades)." IMO the level of control that he maintained was enough not to condem him in the eyes of many outside the barony, and while the objection is understandable, a fair trial would have IMO been difficult to arrange.. from PWA2(I think) Levels: F16 ludwig m28 bargle the infamous banner of the black eagle's villans: f24,general <-----this is interesting! F20, captian <----so is this! m16 c14 karameikos army's heroes: F18 F12 M18 C15 It does appear that although stefan has more men, ludwigs are far more elite, IMO making them superior given their respective tasks. Not a force to recon with if your stefan. Pg 176 pwa 2 Nuwmont 5 AC1011: the black eagle is captured however they "continue to beseige fort doom itself" "many of the barony's humanoids have chosen to fight to the death rather then abandon their home. It appears that it may not have just been ludwig himself that was evil, but many of the other inhabitants of the Black Eagle barony. pwa1 pg236 Kaldmont 23: the PC's "can decend into ludwig's horid dungeons to rescue anyone who still lives there" I think that tells you what can be expected if you defy him, and that there is little hope for those that do, ensuring his iron fist of control. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:31:32 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Mystara Modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > > You mean OD&D modules? All of them were retrofitted to Mystara. As for > > Err, it's sort of the reverse. Mystara sprung out of the modules, so > they're the original canon. As you prefer... > Off the top of my head: [..] > X4, X5, X10 - Mystara-specific (Sind [and surrounding lands?]) X5 is set in Hule, isn't it? > M5 - Mystara-specific (Isle of Dawn) - or was this M4? Whichever one is > not "Five Coins For a Kingdom" M4, as M5 is Five Coins for a Kingdom, which is loosely based in Norwold. > B11-B12 Set in or around Penhaligon, AFAIK. > X11 Set in Denagoth & Wendar > CM2, CM3, Sequels of CM1 You can look up the rest in the product list at the official site. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:41:26 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: the Origin of Minotaurs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > > Has anyone done any work on the Enduks? Minotaurs are claimed to be "fallen > enduks" by them, who have been cursed by Ixion and lost their wings. I'm > not sure how/why the enduks came about in the first place though. According to the SC material, they were created to serve the shedu-avatar of Ixion, Gildesh. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:43:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eric Anondson Subject: Traldar of the City-States question In-Reply-To: <20001128224649.8F563811A@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In the Savage Coast accessories entry of a brief history, here is the excerpt: "FIVE CENTURIES PAST: About 560 years ago, an influx of Traldar arrived, possibly fleeing religious persecution in their homeland." Has anyone done anything with this, alleged "religious persecution"? I'm a novice in Known World histories, but is there any known basis in Traldar cultural history to piece together a religious conflict that would cause a portion of the population to move thousands of miles away, across the otherside of the Great Waste? Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:54:02 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac in pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Okay, well that's done, all three of them (1014, > 1015, 1016) are now available > > at the usual place > (http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/) in PDF. For > some reason > > I have trouble accessing the 1016 file, but it > ain't my fault. > > Shawn if you want a copy for the official Mystara > site and can't access the > > online version, ask me. > > This still aint working. > Are anybody gonna fix it? Don't know if it'll help, but the name appears to have capitals and the web servers are often case sensitive. Try renaming the file and the link to it in small case which usually removes these problems. Also the 1016 file is straight pdf while the others are zip files. (if you didn't already notice) Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:16:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mystara Modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agathokles wrote: > > M5 - Mystara-specific (Isle of Dawn) - or was this M4? Whichever one = is > > not "Five Coins For a Kingdom" >=20 > M4, as M5 is Five Coins for a Kingdom, which is loosely based in > Norwold. Oh, no! M5 is Talons of Night, the greatest adventure of all time, = IMNSHO, and certainly Mystara-specific. M4 is Five Coins... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:33:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers Of course, there is as much evidence that Stefan is a member of the Storm Soldiers as their is for Ludwig's membership. If not more. Because the true secret is that Stefan Karameikos is the Insidious Hand of Thanatos: It was Stefan who brought Ludwig to Traladara, and unleashed Ludwig's reign of terror on the populace. Ludwig actually wasn't that committed a Storm Soldier - that's why he was willing to have a Traladaran like Bargle as his closest supporter and advisor. Ludwig was also known to be a loose cannon, something of a blunt instrument. But he was intended to form only one facet of Thanatos's Plot, as put into action by His retainer, Stefan. Ludwig was to do the dirty work, especially early on, while Stefan put on a front of seeming to be benign, but befuddled. Stefan eventually planned to sacrifice Ludwig, once it became untenable to continue the charade (he didn't let Ludwig in on this part of the plan), while continuing on through the stages of Thanatos's Plot. This worked beyond Stefan's expectations, and Ludwig was able to continue on as a disruptive force for longer than expected, because there were many gullible people who fell for the ploy. This continued even through the Great War, when, if Ludwig and Stefan were really at odds, Ludwig would have taken advantage of the opportunity to try and sieze Karameikos. But this didn't happen, because Ludwig was part of Stefan's conception at the same time. The same with the ruthless men unleashed upon the Traladarans - these spread disorder and bitterness, but mainly because they were undisciplined and got out of hand. Because these men were actually Storm Soldiers as well, brought in to be Stefan's first agents, infesting Traladara and paving the way for the future. Later on, Thanatos came to a Traladaran priest in the form of a dream-image, impersonating Halav and convincing this Priest that Stefan was Halav re-incarnated (though Halav continues to be an Immortal). Being touched by Entropy was too much for the Priest's mind, however, and he became unhinged mentally - but this was fine, as it served to advance the Plot even more. Now, Sergev and the Cult of Halav are also spreading discord and chaos through Traladara, though, for now, Patriarch Alekseyv has prevented this potential schism from getting worse. Sergyev and the other Cult Priests get their spells from Thanatos. Ultimately, it finally did become impossible for Stefan to continue to pretend that he was either at odds with or ignorant of Ludwig's behavior. But Stefan managed to avoid involving himself directly in Ludwig's fall, letting the Hin do the fighting and dying. Ludwig managed to "escape" through timely intervention, because agents Stefan made sure that the right information got into the wrong hands (the Hin having trusted Stefan kept him apprised of where they were holding Ludwig. It was then a simple matter to secure Ludwig's "escape", never know when such a useful pawn might come in handy again. Stefan did underestimate Ludwig's feeling that Stefan betrayed and sold him out, though, and so he left the region to seek opportunities elsewhere). The insidious Plot of Stefan's branch of the Storm Soldiers continues apace; the ruling class of Traladarans, with the exception of a few sops, has been replaced almost entirely with Thyatians now. Stefan himself, like Thanatos Himself, sees the Storm Soldiers as merely a tool to spread Entropy (just as they see the "Cult of Halav") - the ultimate plot being to set the region, which was begining to progress out of its Dark Age, up for a final fall. This is where the betrayal of the much larger and more powerful Thyatis came in - along with efforts by Stefan to foster feelings of loyalty towards himself among the Traladarans (thus the "Cult of Halav's" usefulness), and the WDL - the ultimate goal being a war with Thyatis that will lead to widespread death and destruction, at the end plunging Traldara back into a deep dark age. The loyalty of Traladarans is needed for this, because if they didn't fight on Stefan's behalf then his regime might be toppled with little bloodshed among the Traladarans, little devistation, and the Plot would fail. Thanatos needed Stefan to have strong backing, so that the war and destruction would be more severe. This is also why several allies were brought in (Thanatos working in partnership somewhat with Loki/Bozdogan here, too, since Loki's minion, Hosadus, will take advantage of this war to invade Darokin once again) - the WDL nations thus also being encouraged, through Stefan's subtle prodd! ! ing, to provoke Thyatis (thus far this aspect of the Plot has only been successful with respect to the Ylari, getting them to engage in raids against the Thyatians). This is also why Traladara/Karameikos has been apparently strengthened through the misfortunes of others lately (these misfortunes being Entropic in nature, subtly advanced by Thanatos's schemes and maneuvering. Already, two nations have been destroyed by this means, and others plunged into chaos, so the Plot is already somewhat successful). This was, again, so that the ultimate fighting in Traladara would be fiercer and ongoing (a quickly concluded war would leave too little devistation). Stefan now sits at the precipice, ready. . .but for two things: 1) the obstinate refusal of Olliver Jowet to die. His death is intended to be the precipitating point, plunging the CoT into schism, and ultimately resulting in Thyatian intervention at the call of Alfrec Oderby (a catspaw and fall-guy in this Plot). 2) Aleksyev Nikelnevich's capability. He, and his subtle but stalwart efforts to keep the Traladarans and their Church cohesive has prevent the spread of the Cult of Halav and its fanatics, and thus also, in effect, given "aid and comfort" to Traladarans who don't have the required adulation and abject loyalty to Stefan - the continued existance of this institution (which was supposed to be subsumed into the Cult of Halav by now), along with other Traldaran factions that are unlikely to give support to Stefan, has prevented the Plot from advancing on the scheduled time-table (it turned out, in many ways, that holding onto Ludwig as the "Black Eagle Baron" for so long worked against the Plot - his antics were supposed to cause the people to look to Stefan as their savior, but then be dispensed with and dispatched as a "success"). They had overconfidence in their own plan, and didn't count on the Traladarans then looking somewhat askance at the situation (people like Sacha of Lu! ! ln not having been part of "The Plan"). Part of this also is the subtle but continuous influence of the *real* Halav (the Immortal), giving support and encouragement to his real priests, such as Aleksyev - which, likewise, has prevented the CoT from being subverted completely by the "Cult of Halav". But the Plot continues to unfold, and many gullible people continue to buy into the image and "vision". . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Various Cleaning up on some older mails, some random reactions to some stuff, in no particular order: Wizard's Shopper wrote: >> It's true, but you must also consider intent, and the way intent is *described* in D&D is with alignment. << Actually, Alignments describe behaviors and attitudes more than intent, IMO. The Alignments don't mention intent, but rather deal with how people see and interact with the world (I.E. a LE person sticks to the letter but not spirit of agreements, twisting them to their advantage - what they intended at one point in time, I.E. when they signed the agreement, being not nearly so important as how they behave with respect to it afterwords; a Chaotic Neutral person follows his whims, is an individualist first and last - doesn't "intend to follow his whims and intend to be an individualist" - but is, by behavior; a "Lawful Good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act" - intention to do so is not as important as doing so; the behaving or *acting* in that manner). Which brings us to: >> So, now, before I try to convince you that Stefan is LG with his actions, why don't we set some ground rules for what constitutes proof one way or the other? << Well, since we don't agree on how to view the Alignments themselves, I think it would be difficult to agree on "ground rules". Then we also look at the same events often with a different eye (in some respects because we don't share the same view of the Alignments - if I think behavior is the key and you think intent is the key, we're going to differ on the meaning we think the events constitute). Plus, as Jenn pointed out, it would only really come into play if we were attempting to prove one side or the other wrong. As folks have pointed out, there's little if any chance of that happening (as far as either "side" changing the minds of the other "side"), and as an "independent" (Master's Pawn) pointed out, the "independents" are going to do it their way as well, taking this or that idea (buffet style perhaps) and using it with their own ideas. So, I'm not sure it's a matter of "proofs" - especially since we'd possibly spend as much time squabbling on what the ground rules should be as on anything else, and IMO that would be a boring chore rather than an interesting discussion (which is what this has largely been). Jennifer Guerra wrote: >> Only let's not exclude someone's ideas on a topic because they may propose a change to something printed there. << Right, I can go with that. >> I've had that problem as well. Since I have, in the past (and the present) fought for the legitimization of variant versions of Mystaran lore (the "non-canon" stuff), people sometimes get huffy when I stie "canonic" references for things in my discussions or work. As if, by defending alternate viewpoints, I am obligated to turn my back on the whole of "canon." I guess that some people (particularly the self-appointed "canon police", as I call them) can't get a grip on the fact that I (for one) can pick and choose as I want...and so can they. Go figure. << Yes, good points. >> I agree. The hypocrisy *can* get a bit thick in here at times. << Dittos. > it does sort of remind me of a scene in Red Dawn > (old movie, not a great movie I guess), >> Hey, talkin' 'bout my generation. << Mine too, actually. I rather mispoke when I said it was an "old" movie; I don't really consider anything made since, say, 1969 as an "old" movie. >> Yes, I see your point. And I, too, think that one would be expected to fight more fiercely in defense of one's homeland. As for what's an acceptable level of slaughter, I don't care to make that kind of judgment, since I tend to be put off by justifications of extreme violence, but I certainly think that were Mystara RL, I would give the Traladarans a bit more leeway than the invaders. << Yah, that's why I said I didn't think it covered/excused any depravity and slaughter. I'm one of those, though, who do think the game would lose luster without some fighting/combat (if that makes me a "hack n slash" player, then so be it, I don't mind.) >> James takes all his evidence for Stefan being CN and throws it in the ring. << I put that into the ring and made the strongest argument I could for it when I was presenting that case. Just as I did the scenario for him being, say, LE - or LN as some have argued (including myself at times). And the recently posted "campaign option" for him being one of Thanatos's Retainers in a major Plot being unleashed by the Grim Reaper. The last one's really an invention/"campaign twist" - but one can use all the described "canon" events that passed before and still put that idea into a campaign without changing any event or having to revise the setting's presentation till the point when the "Plot of the Insidious Hand of Thanatos" is unleashed, and various folks have to struggle to overcome the crisis they've been manipulated into. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Evil Genius Subject: Corruption & Treachery >> Speaking of which, James, have you ever given much thought to the benefit that Thyatis gets by propagating the belief among outsiders that its system is *totally* corrupt, and that its bureaucracy can be bought and sold? I'm sure that it lulled enemies into some stupid moves in the past. << Actually, on that I hadn't, beyond what I'll describe below. On that, also, I think that shows how, often, "canon" introduces some useful options (it being also that Thyatians are efficient - but it's hard to have an efficient system that is also totally corrupt; indeed, impossible - so different people emphasize different aspects, this emphasising the efficiency of Thyatis, as opposed to say, the "underperformance" of Alphatia, as a reason why the smaller Empire balances the larger in a equilibrium, while others emphasise the "corruption", or another balances the efficiency with the corruption, or interprets what it constitutes differently - I.E. the corruption of the Ordo Magna which also is an efficient opponent of Thyatian enemies). Also, though, back to your question, of which the above constitutes a partial response: it depends upon how "real" that belief among outsiders is (and thus it would depend on the degree to which one views corruption in Thyatis - high, low, moderate - and what precisely that corruption consists of - people selling out their grandmothers to foreign agents for a copper piece, or institutions who's original, positive, aims have been corrupted to less noble ones, or both, and, again, to what degree). If one see's that corruption as actually high and thus the belief of outsiders as accurate, then it's very hard for the Thyatians to manipulate it to their benifit (if people believe that any Thyatian is willing to sell out his homeland and friends in exchange for some payoff, and that's a accurate belief - they really will, not just Stefan - then the Thyatians are too busy selling out their Empire to the Alphatians to be able to manipulate things to their advantage in preserving it, a! ! nd the Alphatians are marching down the streets of Thyatis City). But if the belief is not completely accurate, then you're right, some possibilities open up: Back to the aspect where I have used, is that IMO the Thyatians are thus good at having "double-agents" - folks think that Thyatians are willing to sell out anything for a price (not just those Thyatians who have left the Empire for opportunistic reasons, but Thyatians in the Empire), then its easier to get them to think they've bought you. But the thing I've found most useful, and I'm going to put this in BR terms, is a reputation for either treachery or keeping deals. For example, Thyatis has the image of being uniquely treacherous (never mind the actual behavior of people in other Mystaran lands, evaluating actual actions & events - we're not here to debate that so much, but the image of Thyatian treachery). One can very easily manipulate folks who feel you "must be treacherous" into getting them to screw up first. While you're keeping the agreement, they're thinking "well, those guys are treacherous by nature, if I break the agreement it's only because they don't deserve to be treated faithfully, plus I'd better get them before they get me" - then, while you're keeping your word faithfully, they're scheming to break it, while you're watching them closely for just such a thing. When they do it, you're the "injured party" and you pounce. I never deliberately broke any agreement I made while playing Mystaran Birthright as Thyatis, but the tendency of others to treat deals with me as not worth the paper they were printed on was, on several occasions, a pure benifit for me (while they basically ended up screwing only themselves, because I was very careful about my agreements - see below). The other thing to one's benifit, also, is the obverse: having a reputation as a schemer is fine, but having a reputation for being Antonio is Not Good (well, he does ok, but people watch him too closely now) - a reputation for being a schemer makes people wary and oddly respectful. A reputation for screwing everyone in site and betraying any covenant when it's convenient for you is not (I'm sure the WDL nations are happy to have Stefan as an ally, for now, and they 'tacitly accept' his public reputation, but I'm sure they watch their back when around him, for obvious reasons - he's already openly screwed over his friends when the price was right). This does mean one must be very careful about one's deals & agreements - making one you're uncomfortable keeping is one thing (if you have to keep it, you have to keep it, even if you mutter while doing so), but making one you wouldn't want to keep - well, better off not making such an agreement. The old Byzantine trick then comes in handy: the axiom having been, that once you sign an agreement, you should keep it. But the "treachery" comes in that one can negotiate and re-negotiate and keep negotiating, but while you're negotiating you're not bound to anything (you haven't agreed to anything yet), so if people get the impression that an agreement is right around the corner, and then are shocked when you attack them anyhow, then thats their problem (did I say that was Lawful Good? No. But is signing a agreement and then breaking it? That's less LG). Negotiating with no intent to sign any agreement can be useful (I occasionally got some small info out of the MoH just by appearing open to an agreement, though not lots because the MoH, being a crafty guy, pretty much knew that I wasn't negotiating seriously. . .but on the off chance I might be - anyhow, I got fed misinformation once or twice, too, but even misinformation proved to be useful to me. But in other times, not ! ! all in that same game, such negotations with other Regents have been, frequently, useful tongue-looseners, getting information being - well, folks know I admire Olivia more than I admire Stefan). Plus, who knows? You might end up comming out with an agreement even though at the time you entered into the negotiations you didn't expect or plan to (leads to a third axiom: keep one's mind open to many alternatives. There's usually lots of ways to achieve one's goals, suborning an enemy can be as valuable if not more so than defeating them). Again, having a reputation as a skilled schemer is useful. Having a reputation as treacherous is less useful. I cultivate the former, the latter reputation is only useful if you aren't really treacherous. The former is useful whether you are or not (scheming takes time - some times one doesn't have the time to talk to all the people and arrange all the negotiations to foster well developed schemes, but if you have the reputation then people will think you're doing so even when you're not, and be more wary and careful before taking you on). Conversely, having a reputation for *not* being treacherous can be to your advantage if you *plan* on being treacherous or decide you need to be at some specific point (Eriadna benifited a lot from marrying Asterela off to Zaar, catching the Thyatians unawares - though that was more Zaar's treachery than Eriadna's, but he benifited as well - he got a Kingship out of it). But you can usually only do that once, unless you have a "Teflon Reputation" (People likely won't ever trust Zaar again unless they're autistic or deranged or total naifs. Stefan can keep doing it, perhaps, because his rep is impervious to reality, though I do think the nearby leaders are too insightful to fall for his image like some less observant people do, and thus watch their back around him). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.