========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Is this legal? In-Reply-To: <005701c0ca53$2476ddc0$e0511f42@D56DN901> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm currently working on a Blackmoor adventure for the old C-64 Adventure Construction Set (thanks to an emulator) - I was wondering if it would be legal to make copies available after the adventure is complete. I'm working almost strictly from the canon, so I guess there's a fair chance that sharing of such work is forbidden. Does anyone know the current TSR policy regarding dirivitive (sp?) works? - Mischa All that is needed for the forces of evil to win in this world is for enough good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:59:32 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Is this legal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you make it non-profit, of course, just freeware, and you take care not to quote a significative amount of the original text, it does not sound like too much of a problem. After all, they are allowing people to publish online conversions into 3e of previous editions material (just the conversion, the original text, excepting bits here and there to make the conversion understandable) is definitely out. There are out there this ton of websites which use the Unlimited Adventures system (remember? the interface for the old AD&D games like Pool of Radiance or the Krynn trilogy which was later sold as an adventure editor) and have literally TONS of AD&D (and a small handful of Mystara modules) published modules converted into computer games and they have not run into any trouble, they are out in the net since the late 90s. Just the editor is still copyright of TSR and SSI, adventures can be freely distributed and downloaded in a non-profit basis. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:11:00 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: (no subject) Comments: cc: Agathokles , Dionisius , Alberto Ghirri , Carla Cortese , "Edward J. Finn" , Federico Kaftal , Geoff Gander , Giovanni Golinelli , Herve Musseau , il Ghiro , il Pinguino , Marcelo Alonso , Kaos Eterno , John Calvin , Lodi Daniele , "Jens A. Schnabel" , James Ruhland , Jacob Skytte , Maurizio Pagliara , Marco Dalmonte , Maurizio Vacca , Oreste Teoli , "mystara_newbie_guide@yahoogroups.com" , Patrizia Swift , Patrizio Agostinelli , Simone Manfredini , Thibault Sarlat , Viviana Peggi , Wiseman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >NON FATE DOMANDE, E GIOCATE !!!! > >Copiate e incollate questo messaggio in una nuova e-mail. > >Leggete la lista dei nomi. Se il vostro nome � nella lista aggiungete > >una stella a fianco del nome. Se non compare , aggiungetelo (in > >ordine alfabetico). Inviate l'e-mail ad almeno 10 persone e alla > >persona che ve l'ha inviata. > >Vedrete cosa succeder�......� molto divertente... > > > >Aaron* > >Adam > >Adrienne > >Alain-Pierre > >Alessandro > >Alexandra* > >Alexia > >Alexis*** > >Alice*** > >Aline* > >Alix > >Allison* > >Allyson > >Alyce > >Amanda**** > >Amandine* > >Amaury > >Amber* > >Amelia*** > >Amelie* > >Amy > >Ana > >Andrea*** > >Angela* > >Angelica > >Angeline > >Angelique* > >Anik > >Ann > >Anna*** > >&g t; Anndee > >Anne > >Anne-Felicie > >Anne-Julie > >Anne-Pascale > >Anne-Sophie* > >Annie** > >Annick* > >Annik > >Annike > >Annikim > >Antoine * > >Antonio > >April* > >Arnaud* > >Ash** > >Ashlee* > >Ashley*** > >Aurelie* > >Austin > >Beatrice** > >Benny* > >Benoit* > >Berengere > >Bertrand* > >Betsy > >Beth* > >Blake > >Blandine > >Bob* > >Bobbie > >Bobby > >Bondoux > >Bonnie > >Brad** > >Brandy > >Brandi > >Brandon > >Breiann > >Brenda* > >Brian ** > >Brice > >Bridget* > >Brigitte > >Britney > >Brittany* > >Brooke > 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>Eric* > >Erica > >Erin** > >Erlinda > >Essia > >Esther* > >Eve > >Eveline* > >Fabian > >Fabien* > >Fabienne*** > >Fanny > >Fabrice* > >Florence > >Florent > >France* > >Francis > >Francois ***** > >Francoise *** > >Frank > >Frederic** > >Gabriella > >Gemma > >Genevieve** > >Georgia > >George > >Geraldine > >Gilliane > >Giovanni > >Giulia > > > >Giuseppe > > > >Glynis* > >Grace > >Graziana > > > Guillaume* > > > Guerric > > > Gwenaelle > > > ++++++amid > > > Hannah > > > Harold > > > Harry > > > Hilary > > > Heather > > > Helene** > > > Heloise > > > Herve** > > > Hoa > > > Holly* > > > Hope > > > Houman > > > Houston > > > Isabelle******** > > > Ita* > > > Irene** > > > Ivan* > > > Jaclyn > > > Jackie > > > Jacob > > > Jade > > > Jake > > > James > > > Jamie > > > Jan > > > Jana > > > Jane* > > > Janet* > > > Janice* > > > Jason > > > Jean-Bernard > > > Jean-Christophe* > > > Jean-Francois > > > Jean-Jacques > > > Jean-Paul > > > Jean-Sebastien > > > Jeannie* > > > Jeff* > > > Jenna > > > Jennifer***** > > > Jenny* > > > Jerome > > > Jerry > > > Jessica*** > > > Jill > > > Joanne > > > Jocelyn > > > Joel** > > > Joelle** > > > John > > > Jolleen > > > Jonie > > > Jordi > > > Jorie* > > > Jose > > > Josh*** > > > Judy** > > > Julee* > > > Julia* > > > Justine > > > Julie****** > > > Kaitlyn* > > > Kapiolani* > > > Kara > > > Kare > > > Karine** > > > Katell > > > Laura**** > > > Laure** > > > Laurent* > > > Laurence*** > > > Loic > > > Lorenzo > > > Louise > > > Laetitia > > > Linda* > > > Magali > > > Malika* > > > Marc*** > > > Marcel* > > > Margaux > > > Marie* > > > Marie Ange > > > Marie Jose > > > Marielle > > > Marina > > > Marion > > > Martine > > > Martin > > > Maude > > > Melissa > > > Michel* > > > Mina > > > Mohammed > > > Monika > > > Myriam > > > Nathalie**** > > > Nicolas* > > > Noelle* > > > Olivia** > > > Olivier* > > > Oriane > > > Paola* > > > Patricia*** > > > Patrick**** > > > Pascal* > > > Pascale** > > > Paulette > > > Pierrot > > > Philippe* > > > Philome ne > > > Rachid > > > Raymond > > > Riccardo > > > Romy* > > > RosaMaria > > > Rosetta > > > Rossella > > > Sabrina > > > Samir > > > Sandrine > > > Sebastian > > > Sebastien* ** > > > Serge > > > Sergio > > > Severine > > > Soizick > > > Solange* > > > Solene > > > Sonia* > > > Sophie*** > > > Stephanie**** > > > Steve* > > > Sylvain* > > > Sylvie***** > >Tay > > > Thami > > > Thomas*** > >Tiziana > > > Valentina > > > Vanessa** > > > Valerie********* > > > Veronique*** > > > Vincent* > > > Virginie* > > > Viviana > > > Wilfrid > > > Xavier > > > Yann > > > Yannick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:15:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must apologize for this e-mail...it seems that my brother (with whom I share the e-mail account) has simply forwarded this mail to all the addresses in my Address Book. I hope it will not happen again. "We're so sorry...so sorry..." (PFM: "Chocolate Kings", 1976) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:30:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: marten finlator Subject: Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Fellow Mystara buffs, A simple question: Which Immortals patronize the Church of Karameikos? I need an exhaustive list. Thanks, Marten Finlator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:09:51 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/23/01 7:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, finlator@YAHOO.COM writes: > A simple question: Which Immortals patronize the > Church of Karameikos? I need an exhaustive list. > > Bruce Heard addressed this in one of his DRAGON mag columns. Asterius is the major patron of the Church of Karameikos, with the following Immortals represented in a lesser fashion: Vanya, Valerias, Tarastia, Kagyar, and Ilsundal. B1-9 introduced Chardastes to the roster. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:30:11 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take it that the other 3 are of the tralidera church? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:57:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "marten finlator" > > A simple question: Which Immortals patronize the > Church of Karameikos? I need an exhaustive list. According to Dragon #166: Church of Karameikos: Major patron is Asterius. Other revered Immortals are Vanya, Valerias, Tarastia, Kagyar, and Ilsundal. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:20:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <017801c0cc62$8652ab80$80a61a26@q6s7w2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HUH???? What the? Now I am confused!!! Then what about Halav, Zirchev, and Petra? I thought THEY were the major patrons of the Church of Karameikos? Lancer > > A simple question: Which Immortals patronize the > > Church of Karameikos? I need an exhaustive list. > > According to Dragon #166: > > Church of Karameikos: Major patron is > Asterius. Other revered > Immortals are Vanya, Valerias, Tarastia, > Kagyar, and Ilsundal. > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:45:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <20010424022010.52976.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Never mind.. :) I just solved this dilemma just thinking about it for a couple of minutes.. I just recalled that Halav, Zirchev, and Petra were all heroes during the Traladaran conflict with the Beastmen. SILLY ME! :) It would only make sense that those 3 are the patrons of the Church of Traladara. Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:35:20 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Halav, Zirchev, and Petra? I thought THEY were the >major patrons of the Church of Karameikos? That's Church of Traladara! was that the comment which made the holy war start in last year's almanac?? :-)) sorry, i could not help the joke... back to some serious discussion: don't you people find odd, that, after more than 50 years of convivence, some of the mixed-blood Karameikans haven't developed a "syncretic faith", where both Immortals from the Church of Karameikos and Taladara are held in esteem?? Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:49:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <017801c0cc62$8652ab80$80a61a26@q6s7w2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I do not have my Mystara stuff with me at the present time.. So, is this info in Dragon 166 not in the "Grand Duchy of Karameikos" Gazetteer (or for that matter the K:KoA Boxed Set) ? Another question.. I am just curious why Asterius would be the patron of Karameikos? Asterius was a man of the Blackmoor civilization. I would not have guessed his ties with Karameikos... Can someone fill me in? Lancer --- David Knott wrote: > From: "marten finlator" > > > > A simple question: Which Immortals patronize the > > Church of Karameikos? I need an exhaustive list. > > According to Dragon #166: > > Church of Karameikos: Major patron is > Asterius. Other revered > Immortals are Vanya, Valerias, Tarastia, > Kagyar, and Ilsundal. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <20010424022010.52976.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andres, Yes. I know. I realized my error and corrected myself before you even sent that email. :) Lancer >That's Church of Traladara! was that the comment >which made the holy war >start in last year's almanac?? :-)) >sorry, i could not help the joke... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:09:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: Ramses Ramirez 's message of Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:49:58 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Lancer writes: >Another question.. I am just curious why >Asterius would be the patron of Karameikos? >Asterius was a man of the Blackmoor >civilization. I would not have guessed his ties >with Karameikos... Can someone fill me in? Asterius is a patron of trade and making money. Trade is important to Karameikos. Another plus to him being the primary patron is the fact that he has no major connection to any modern Mystaran race/culture. Unlike Vanya who was a Hinterlander. Kagyar is mostly interested in crafting and fabrication. Valerias in love and beauty. Tarastia, in justice, law and order. Vanya, in war. Ilsundal, in elves and probably law and order as well.. Isundal and Valerias are Heirarchs, Asterius, Kagyar, and Tarastia are Eternals. Vanya is an Empyreal. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:24:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= 's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:35:20 +0200 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Andr=E9s writes; >don't you people find odd, that, after more >than 50 years of convivence, some of the >mixed-blood Karameikans haven't developed >a "syncretic faith", where both Immortals from >the Church of Karameikos and Taladara are >held in esteem?? This would probably eventually happen, however one obstacle to this would be Vanya. She hates Halav and Petra. She was a Hinterlander whos people were oppressed by the Milenians, who are descended from the Traldar. By that time Halav, Petra and Zirchev were Immortal Patrons of the Milenians. (Although they should probably not be considered patrons of the early Milenians, not enough time. The early Milenians should revere the immortals of the Traldar, which include Protius, Odin, Ilsundal and probably Ixion, Valerias, etc.) Vanya also dislikes the Traldarans who are also descended from the Traldar. Though she ought to just get over it. The Milenians oppressed the Milenians, the Thyatians oppressed the Traladara. It's even now. Thyatis would not even exist without the Milenians. They borrowed much of the culture and politics. And the Milenian language obviously influenced the Thyatian language, except for the Hattians who retained much of their "Germanic" language. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:48:52 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >This would probably eventually happen, however one obstacle to this would be Vanya. Yes, I thought of that (IMC, that's one of the main sources of tension between both churches), but IMO it could have undergone a change in the post-WotI years, as Vanya turns her attention away from Karameikos and "selling off" nations. Anyway, her bonds to the Church of Karameikos should not be that strong: if she cast the horrible curse on Thincol just for suing for peace with a broken army before the Alphatian behemot, what should she have done to Stefan after his agreement for neutrality?? Karameikos selling off was potentially the biggest harm to Rad's coallition (with Darokin nailed by the Master and in mayhem), they were the major threat to Alphatia's advance on Glantri and to the main interests of Vanya in the War: combat and glory of arms... So, I think that now in the 1010s, we could see the begjnning of a syncretic pantheon in Karameikos. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:22:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero wrote: > > Yes, I thought of that (IMC, that's one of the main sources of tension > between both churches), but IMO it could have undergone a change in the > post-WotI years, as Vanya turns her attention away from Karameikos and > "selling off" nations. Anyway, her bonds to the Church of Karameikos should > not be that strong: I think this can explain the unrest within the CoK. Oderbry and is followers are IMO priests of Vanya (while Jowett, and perhaps Sherlane too, is a priest of Asterius). Also, I suppose the Order of the Griffon is strongly influenced by the priesthood of Vanya. As to Vanya's bond with Karameikos, I think she enjoyed at first the idea of colonizing the hated Traladara, and would rather bring her followers to an holy war than simply withdraw from the CoK pantheon. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:15:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Church of Karameikos Summary In-Reply-To: <006101c0ccac$fcba8fa0$fc9498c1@uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ive been following this thread with great interest and I'd like to make a few comments: 1) Church of Karameikos (CoK) patrons are: Asterius (Head), Vanya, Valerias, Kagyar and Ilsundal (According to Dragon Magazine). Tarastia isnt mentioned as a patron of that faith, but IMO she, and several others of the Thyatian pantheon could be included as minor patrons. However, I would not include immortals who are worshipped in Thyatis but are of forreign origin (Ie Thor, Halav, Al-Kalim etc.) 2)Chardastes. B1-9 lists Chardastes as member of the CoK, but I find this unlikely. B1-9 was published before Karameikos was fully developed, and the above mentioned Dragon Magazine entry does not mention him. Furthermore Wrath of the Immortals (boxed set) says that Chardastes is allied with the patrons of the Church of Traladara (CoT), namely Halav, Petra and Zirchev. This makes more sense IMO since Chardastes is of Traladaran origin. In the CoK Valerias assumes the role of the Healer IMC. 3)Unification. Personally, I see the religious division as an indication of the cultural differences between the peoples of Karameikos. I don't really think it is strange that the two people have different religions, if not only to differentiate themselves from eachother. However, for Stefan (or his heir) it would be advantageous to have one unified religion. Ive toyed with the idea of a Reformed Church of Karameikos unifying the two groups under the leadership of Aleena Halaran as the new patriarch in the future of my campaign. However, even if this were to happen, many people would probably oppose this for centuries to come. Comments? Haavard ______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Organiser sammenkomsten p� http://no.invites.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <18514-3AE4FC6D-1587@storefull-294.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Asterius is a patron of trade and making money. > Trade is important to > Karameikos. Yes, Asterius is the patron of merchants and thievery but for EXACTLY those reasons (along with him being of the Blackmoor civilization) why would he be the patron of Karameikos? Since when was trade/thievery so important to the CoK? It just does not make sense to me. I know that Karameikos, being a seaside nation (along with Thyatis) that trade is somewhat important to it... But not so important that the CoK would have such strong credences about it? I mean, there is no mention at all of mercantilistic principles in the belief system of the CoK, LOL. Nor, do I see the CoK lauding thieves. On the contrary, the CoK would be vehemently opposed to thievery and see it as a considerable sin (they might even frown at too much money). If the church was so adamant about trade, there would be some kind of merchant-subset organization of the CoK or something similar to espouse those beliefs... I just do not get that correlation between trade and Karameikos. Although it is true that trade is important to Karameikos as well as most nations (save for maybe the Atruaghin Clans) in the Known World, when I think of trade as so important to a nation that it would have Asterius as their patron, only two countries come to mind: The Minrothad Guilds and The Republic of Darokin. All other nations in the Known World depend on these two for trade. I could see Asterius being a major patron of these two (and he is) but the whole CoK, Asterius correlation escapes me, Another plus to him being the primary > patron is the fact > that he has no major connection to any modern > Mystaran race/culture. > Unlike Vanya who was a Hinterlander. But then, Asterius could just as likely be the patron of any other nation as he would for Karameikos. Why die Asterius choose Karameikos? As far as the connection thing goes, as someone brought up remember that WoTI changed Chardastes patronage from being of CoK(in B1-9) to CoT to better reflect that he is of Traladaran origin (and would make sense for him to advocate the CoT) and not of Thyatian lineage. In summary, I just do not see thievery being a favored tenet of the CoK nor would favoring merchants be high on their list either. I really would like to know exactly what Bruce Heard's logic was when he wrote that.. :) Lancer P.S. Correct me if you disagree with something I wrote. I welcome differing viewpoints! :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <3AE56209.7080806@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to commend Agathokles' assessment of the civil unrest origins within the CoK. I think it is very good. I do see it as very probable that it could be a Vanya vs. other CoK Immortals issue (I have trouble seeing Asterius as a CoK patron). Since neither the Gazetteer nor K:KoA IIRC talks about why the struggles are there, this is the most logical reasoning I have seen... Especially since Vanya is semi-officially a patron of Karameikos. > I think this can explain the unrest within the CoK. > Oderbry and is > followers are IMO priests of Vanya (while Jowett, > and perhaps Sherlane > too, is a priest of Asterius). Also, I suppose the > Order of the Griffon > is strongly influenced by the priesthood of Vanya. This is a slight tangent.. but does anyone find it odd that Vanya espoused Petra for Immortality in the first place? Isn't that weird considering Petra's Milenian (and therefore Traldar) origins? Why would Vanya have just ignored that and sponsor her anyway knowing this? Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:18:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameik os MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Asterius is also a patron of peace, in Darokin he is revered for his merchant loving philosophy, but not so much for his peace loving philosophy that he would get from a church such as CoK. The CoK was brought over as a branch of the Church of Thyatis. When the CoK wanted to set it's power on the local populace (and convert them), it had to adopt more peace giving ways, and get away from the fanatical Thyatian ideals to be accepted. The Thyatian pantheon is not known for it's peace and prosperity! Asterius would have accepted this role in Karameikos, if for no other reason than to support stability and peace, so other followers in nearby Minrothad and Darokin have a solid trading partner. You are right, Karameikos is not big on trading now, as it is more like a colonial barony than a kingdom, but it does trade, and has a greater potential to trade as a world power because of it's location and deep port in Specularum. Also Darokin would rather cross Karameikos's northern mountains to trade with Thyatis, than to cross Ylaruam's desert, this brings allot of believers in Asterius through Karameikos, with their trade. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:24:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have to realize that Thyatis is chock full of churches and alliances. The Church of Karameikos likely evolved out of one of those when Oliver Jowett joined Stephan Karameikos to travel to forlorn Traladara. Hence the Church of Karameikos was formed from an existing cult/temple within Thyatis. Asterius could well have smiled upon the deal that Stephan made with Thincol and became the patron thereby. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ramses Ramirez" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos > > Asterius is a patron of trade and making money. > > Trade is important to > > Karameikos. > > Yes, Asterius is the patron of merchants and > thievery but for EXACTLY those reasons (along with him > being of the Blackmoor civilization) why would he be > the patron of Karameikos? Since when was > trade/thievery so important to the CoK? It just does > not make sense to me. I know that Karameikos, being a > seaside nation (along with Thyatis) that trade is > somewhat important to it... But not so important that > the CoK would have such strong credences about it? I > mean, there is no mention at all of mercantilistic > principles in the belief system of the CoK, LOL. Nor, > do I see the CoK lauding thieves. On the contrary, the > CoK would be vehemently opposed to thievery and see it > as a considerable sin (they might even frown at too > much money). If the church was so adamant about trade, > there would be some kind of merchant-subset > organization of the CoK or something similar to > espouse those beliefs... > > I just do not get that correlation between trade and > Karameikos. Although it is true that trade is > important to Karameikos as well as most nations (save > for maybe the Atruaghin Clans) in the Known World, > when I think of trade as so important to a nation that > it would have Asterius as their patron, only two > countries come to mind: The Minrothad Guilds and The > Republic of Darokin. All other nations in the Known > World depend on these two for trade. I could see > Asterius being a major patron of these two (and he is) > but the whole CoK, Asterius correlation escapes me, > > Another plus to him being the primary > > patron is the fact > > that he has no major connection to any modern > > Mystaran race/culture. > > Unlike Vanya who was a Hinterlander. > > But then, Asterius could just as likely be the patron > of any other nation as he would for Karameikos. Why > die Asterius choose Karameikos? As far as the > connection thing goes, as someone brought up remember > that WoTI changed Chardastes patronage from being of > CoK(in B1-9) to CoT to better reflect that he is of > Traladaran origin (and would make sense for him to > advocate the CoT) and not of Thyatian lineage. > > In summary, I just do not see thievery being a favored > tenet of the CoK nor would favoring merchants be high > on their list either. > > I really would like to know exactly what Bruce Heard's > logic was when he wrote that.. :) > > Lancer > P.S. Correct me if you disagree with something I > wrote. I welcome differing viewpoints! :) > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <084f01c0ccd2$b45d8480$8b39abd0@tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- George Hrabovsky wrote: > You have to realize that Thyatis is chock full of > churches and alliances. > The Church of Karameikos likely evolved out of one > of those when Oliver > Jowett joined Stephan Karameikos to travel to > forlorn Traladara. Hence the > Church of Karameikos was formed from an existing > cult/temple within Thyatis. > Asterius could well have smiled upon the deal that > Stephan made with Thincol > and became the patron thereby. > > George Interesting... Yes the CoK was modeled after the Church of Thyatis.. So from what you stated.. Would you say that the CoK's hypocritical stance to advocate thievery to be one of the "loopholes" of the CoK's otherwise strict faith?.. Would you consider that the CoK deems thievery as some sort of "tradition" (rather than a sin)passed down from the Thyatians that somehow escapes judgement? Possible but strange ramifications.... IIRC correctly, I thought that the K:KoA (and possibly the Grand Duchy Gazetteer) specifically stated that stealing was considered a sin the eyes of the CoK ... Unless, of course, stealing in order to "give to the poor" as Robin Hood did is not considered a sin? Hmmm... If this is true, this is a loophole in the Karameikan faith and I can see followers taking advantage of this. How would CoK preists or Jowett himself justify the above? Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church o f Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Interesting... Yes the CoK was modeled after the Church of Thyatis.. So from what you stated.. Would you say that the CoK's hypocritical stance to advocate thievery to be one of the "loopholes" of the CoK's otherwise strict faith?.. Would you consider that the CoK deems thievery as some sort of "tradition" (rather than a sin)passed down from the Thyatians that somehow escapes judgement? Possible but strange ramifications.... The CoK from the Gazetteer was part way modeled after the RW Catholic ideal, you could interpret it that way as a secret sect within the CoK as the RW Mafia respects the RW Catholic faith. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:51:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Web Warlock Subject: Greyhawk/Mystara time line Comments: To: Greyhawk List Comments: cc: Lisa Zerby , cybersavant@dlcwest.com In-Reply-To: <200104231817.te9l1l.fq9.37tiu0o@eagle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, There has been some interest on both of these lists about my combined Greyhawk/Mystara time line. Here it is, in Excel 2000 format. I have also included the appropriate Ravenloft dates and dates from my own campaign. Let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions. I am not pretending that this is the only way to link these two, and I have taken some liberities with some dates. For those on the Mystara list, this also includes my alternate Glantri timeline for my "Holy Lands of Glantri", but very little witch content! ;) The URL is http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/Downloads/Timeline.zip Enjoy! Warlock. -- Web Warlock, webwarlock@iname.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks The Other Side: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock The DnD Community Council: http://www.dndcommunitycouncil.org/~nbownw ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:06:57 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <20010424155149.93041.qmail@web11502.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Few cultures who adopt an Immortal into their worship port over all aspects of that Immortal. Each means a different thing to different cultures. So there's no requirement that Karameikos advocates theft just because it has Asterius. They can spin him in any light they like. Also, I've always worked with the idea that the CoK isn't a branch of the CoThyatis but rather a splinter group. That is, that the clerics who came to Karameikos saw an opportunity to start a NEW religion that reflected their beliefs better than the CoThyatis. While it would involve many of the same Immortals, the philosophy is probably very different, supposedly designed to meet the needs of the new nation, and noticably Christian-like. Magus Coeruleus At 08:51 AM 4/24/01, Ramses Ramirez wrote: >Interesting... Yes the CoK was modeled after the >Church of Thyatis.. So from what you stated.. Would >you say that the CoK's hypocritical stance to advocate >thievery to be one of the "loopholes" of the CoK's >otherwise strict faith?.. Would you consider that the >CoK deems thievery as some sort of "tradition" (rather >than a sin)passed down from the Thyatians that somehow >escapes judgement? Possible but strange >ramifications.... > >IIRC correctly, I thought that the K:KoA (and possibly >the Grand Duchy Gazetteer) specifically stated that >stealing was considered a sin the eyes of the CoK ... >Unless, of course, stealing in order to "give to the >poor" as Robin Hood did is not considered a sin? > >Hmmm... If this is true, this is a loophole in the >Karameikan faith and I can see followers taking >advantage of this. How would CoK preists or Jowett >himself justify the above? > >Lancer > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ./ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \. < David S Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu > | PhD Candidate ~|~ 858-534-9754(lab)/-1128(fax) | < UCSD Cog Sci ~|~ cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland > .\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ /. "Do you have any idea how fun well-grounded moral indignation is?" -- Ralph Nader, UCSD ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:10:55 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Languages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 2 questions concerning language. 1) Is a human character able to speak a dragon language? Or is it impossible because the dragons use their roars in the language (or other sounds the human body can't make)? 2) Do you need to spend a language proficiency slot for each elven dialect your character has? Or do dialects go by different rules than languages? Thanks for your help, --- -- --Criptonite ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:08:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Languages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 1) Is a human character able to speak a dragon language? Or is it impossible because the dragons use their roars in the language (or other sounds the human body can't make)? 2) Do you need to spend a language proficiency slot for each elven dialect your character has? Or do dialects go by different rules than languages? Both questions are a DM's call, based on how he/she runs their campaign. I have always allowed humans to know dragonspeech, but without the use of magic, dragon's usually get either a little upset at it's poor usage or impressed that the character tried (pending on alignment/situation). I have always used dialects as a half skill, again depending on the situation. You could not buy a Callarii elven dialect at half without first knowing another elven language. Nor could you learn Schaetlalfen as a half skill if you already knew Callarii, but you could if you were a Shadow Elf. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:20:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You proceed from a faulty assumption. Nowhere does it say that Asterius is worshipped both as the patron of merchants and the patron of thieves at the same time. In my campaign, the knowledge that Asterius is the patron of thieves is a closely guarded secret even to his priests (those of a mercantile-frame of mind)! Of course, priests who are a part of thief guilds know about Asterius, but it is NOT common knowledge. If it were, worship of Asterius would not be tolerated in Darokin. > > Interesting... Yes the CoK was modeled after the > Church of Thyatis.. So from what you stated.. Would > you say that the CoK's hypocritical stance to advocate > thievery to be one of the "loopholes" of the CoK's > otherwise strict faith?.. Would you consider that the > CoK deems thievery as some sort of "tradition" (rather > than a sin)passed down from the Thyatians that somehow > escapes judgement? Possible but strange > ramifications.... > > IIRC correctly, I thought that the K:KoA (and possibly > the Grand Duchy Gazetteer) specifically stated that > stealing was considered a sin the eyes of the CoK ... > Unless, of course, stealing in order to "give to the > poor" as Robin Hood did is not considered a sin? > Again, you seem not to understand that Asterius is not the only member of the pantheon. I doubt that the others, even assuming they knew of Asterius' patronage of thieves, would tolerate it in their followers; since to be associated with it would be enough to be branded a thief. Again, in my campaign, Asterius is careful not to associate his support of thieves with his support of merchants. It is quite likely that keeping this a secret is one of his Immortal Projects, and is thus not common knowledge even among other Immortals. Any open support of thieves would then become a liability that he could not afford. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:29:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Languages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit IMC, in order to master dialects, if the PC knows a version of the language in question (by having spent a slot), I let him understand "close" dialects automatically... for instance, a character from Thyatis would automatically understand a Caurenzan Glantrian or a Thyatian-background Ierendian. This also applies for more distant dialects (EG, Aalban Thyatian vs. Ispan Thyatian) if both parties are trying to communicate to each other... on the other hand, people can "lapse into dialect" to prevent foreigners from understanding them. In that case, the foreign-dialect character has to make an Int check. I have also assigned a number of dialects which are so hard and removed that they require a language slot automatically, as if they were languages. That especially applies to archaic or dead versions of a language and dialects which are literary and cannot be used in 2-way communication normally: that would apply to Old Alphatian, to the Ambur dialect of Alphatian poetry, to Blacklore Elvish and similar cases. I also have the house rule (taken from Warhammer) that if a PC spends a meaningful amount of time (something like 6 game months) immersed in a dialect, he can take an Int check (without slot expenditure) to master it, therefore not being considered a foreigner and not needing an int check when natives lapse into dialectal diction. As for dragon languages and so on, my house rule is: if the creature produces sounds within the human audition range, then humans can speak it. Of course, the rendering of a dragon roar by a human would be very poor and the dragons would have to take some pain to understand the human (if you want to add spice, you can use Con or Cha checks from the PC to avoid producing "misunderstanding" sounds...), but communication would proceed... I just prevent characters from taking languages which are outside their auditive scope, like dolphins' and whales', which produce sounds above and under the human range. Also, some alien critters communicate through weird things, like changes in skin color or cellular shapes... humans can learn to understand them, never to speak them, of course... Best solution when talking to monsters?? use ventriloquism or, if in AD&D 1st ed and beyond, audible glamer, you can dramatically improve your vocal range... I also would let 3e bards with Sound Sculpt spells use any vocal and audible range they wish. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:40:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Asterius in Karameikos and other CoK stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit IMO, the presence of Asterius in the CoK makes sense as Stefan broke links with Thyatis (progressively) and tried to build up a nation. That goes well with Asterius' interest in peace and prosperity and slight distaste from violence. He's the most adequate patron of CoK, and his interests in diplomacy seem adequate, too, as the future of the nation lay and still lies more in diplomacy with the surrounding world than in conquest schemes more typical of other nations like Thyatis. On the "unified religion" topic, I wasn't exactly thinking of a royal family initiative to get an ecumenical movement, but in the common populace aglutinating isolated elements, like myths, heroes and stories... for instance, some legend about Petra could mistakenly be assigned to Vanya in folk tradition, or vice-versa... On Vanya sponsoring Petra, I think it's a matter of different times, different places, different Immortal roles... Vanya hates Millenians in first place, and she won't hesitate in hindering any plot of the CoT Immortals as Milenian sponsors and defenders... but when it's about Traldar and Traladaran, well, their portfolios can even be close!!! both revere heroism, even if Vanya stress in conquest and Traldar Immortals in personal achievement. That's quite normal with Immortals, they have tons of cares, protegees and plots. Take Terra and Nyx, they are enemies when it comes to Matter opposing Entropy, but both love experimenting and spawning new races and creatures, they could collaborate in that single aspect, being enemies in the rest. That's the complicated issue of Mystara: Immortals are not local, they move and spread over different countries and portfolios. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:59:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: <086701c0ccda$87397380$8b39abd0@tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- George Hrabovsky wrote: > You proceed from a faulty assumption. Nowhere does > it say that Asterius is > worshipped both as the patron of merchants and the > patron of thieves at the > same time. In my campaign, the knowledge that > Asterius is the patron of > thieves is a closely guarded secret even to his > priests (those of a > mercantile-frame of mind)! Of course, priests who > are a part of thief guilds > know about Asterius, but it is NOT common knowledge. > If it were, worship of > Asterius would not be tolerated in Darokin. Ahhh.. yes. See but you ALSO make an assumption. Your campaign assumption is that certain portfolios are well-guarded secrets among followers. Admittedly, this is ONE manner to go about this and it works, yes. But neither is my assumption that most followers in general would know what an Immortal stands for be a "faulty assumption" either. If you go by my logic and as some have already stated in another thread (and this makes sense to me) ,this is how it COULD work... Assuming many followers know the "main" portfolios of the Immortal.. And why wouldn't they? (I could not imagine the secrets staying so for long since the Known World in itself is such a compact place and info/rumors can easily spread from nation to nation. Not to mention that many Immortals have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years so eventually, a lot of this stuff could become conventional wisdom.) The people can basically just pick and choose what they like. Even in the RL, many of the same Gods are viewed differently in different societies in accordance to factors such as how the culture views that particular deity. As Chris has stated.. Asterius espouses merchants, thievery AS WELL AS peace. It is quite possible the CoK sees the latter as their main image of the Immortal and ignore the other. It is very possible to take one of the Immortal's key credences to heart and ignore the others. This is one way I can reconcile the ostensible contradictions of the CoK. > Again, you seem not to understand that Asterius is > not the only member of.... Of course I understand that Asterius is not the only member of the pantheon! Nowhere did I argue that he is not. Where does this come from? LOL Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:12:40 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church of Karameik os In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F7255891113@JOSHUA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Christopher Cherrington wrote: > Asterius is also a patron of peace, in Darokin he is > revered for his > merchant loving philosophy, but not so much for his > peace loving philosophy > that he would get from a church such as CoK. The > CoK was brought over as a > branch of the Church of Thyatis. When the CoK > wanted to set it's power on > the local populace (and convert them), it had to > adopt more peace giving > ways, and get away from the fanatical Thyatian > ideals to be accepted. The > Thyatian pantheon is not known for it's peace and > prosperity! Asterius > would have accepted this role in Karameikos, if for > no other reason than to > support stability and peace, so other followers in > nearby Minrothad and > Darokin have a solid trading partner. You are > right, Karameikos is not big > on trading now, as it is more like a colonial barony > than a kingdom, but it > does trade, and has a greater potential to trade as > a world power because of > it's location and deep port in Specularum. Also > Darokin would rather cross > Karameikos's northern mountains to trade with > Thyatis, than to cross > Ylaruam's desert, this brings allot of believers in > Asterius through > Karameikos, with their trade. > Hey Chris! It is great that you are already so busy on this list and making it home.. I also am a new guy here. I came in late January. Hope you are enjoying it! :) Yes... Yes.. If Asterius is the patron of peace THEN it would make sense for the CoK to support him.. I just could not really see the CoK supporting his other portfolios unless there was some cult/sect, like you had said in another thread. (Well, that in itself would not be a bad idea.. I could see some good adventure hooks coming out of that!) As for Asterius being a patron of peace.. I believe you.. Andres also said the same thing.. But I can not find anything in WoTI that has that stated. I was just wondering where I can find that info for my own verification.. Is it in the Gold Box? Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:16:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Asterius in Karameikos and other CoK stuff In-Reply-To: <003801c0ccdd$38d696c0$067163d5@uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Andr�s_Piquer_Otero wrote: > IMO, the presence of Asterius in the CoK makes sense > as Stefan broke links > with Thyatis (progressively) and tried to build up a > nation. That goes well > with Asterius' interest in peace and prosperity and > slight distaste from > violence. He's the most adequate patron of CoK, and > his interests in > diplomacy seem adequate, too, as the future of the > nation lay and still lies > more in diplomacy with the surrounding world than in > conquest schemes more > typical of other nations like Thyatis. Where can I find that stated that Asterius is the patron of peace and prosperity? I can not find it in the WoTI. Is it in the Gold Box? Can you direct me please? Gracias Senor Andres. Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:50:44 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church o f Karameik os MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As for Asterius being a patron of peace.. I believe you.. Andres also said the same thing.. But I can not find anything in WoTI that has that stated. I was just wondering where I can find that info for my own verification.. Is it in the Gold Box? I believe I originally read this in an OD&D module called Wrath of Olympus (IM3or4?), but the reinforcing factor is his association with trade and Darokin's social belief that with trade comes prosperity and generally peace. Not that Darokin is peaceful in all trade negotiations; but does command a respect of merchant's rights in much the same way as 'honor among thieves'. Which also denotes how a patron of thieves, can also be a patron of merchants. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:19:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church o f Karameik os In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F725589114B@JOSHUA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmmmm.... Not to be all nit-picky but are you sure you did not confuse Asterius with Koryis(Another Darokin Immortal) According to my sources, Koryis IS the patron of "peace and prosperity." Are there two "peace and prosperity" immortals for Darokin? :) Lancer > I believe I originally read this in an OD&D module > called Wrath of Olympus > (IM3or4?), but the reinforcing factor is his > association with trade and > Darokin's social belief that with trade comes > prosperity and generally > peace. Not that Darokin is peaceful in all trade > negotiations; but does > command a respect of merchant's rights in much the > same way as 'honor among > thieves'. Which also denotes how a patron of > thieves, can also be a patron > of merchants. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:24:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Asterius in Karameikos and other CoK stuff In-Reply-To: <003801c0ccdd$38d696c0$067163d5@uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Actually, I just looked at my sources and I just wanted to make sure you did not confuse the Darokinian Immortal Asterius with Koryis. According to WoTI, Koryis is SPECIFICALLY the "patron of peace and prosperity." Considering I can't find Asterius with that same portfolio description in the WoTI or in my web-search (In fact, everything says Koryis is the patron of that portfolio) just now, it could be a possibility... Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Asterius in Karameikos and other CoK stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Actually, I just looked at my sources and I just wanted to make sure you did not confuse the Darokinian Immortal Asterius with Koryis. According to WoTI, Koryis is SPECIFICALLY the "patron of peace and prosperity." Considering I can't find Asterius with that same portfolio description in the WoTI or in my web-search (In fact, everything says Koryis is the patron of that portfolio) just now, it could be a possibility... I believe you are correct, I did mix the two Immortals. Now that I think of it, so did the Wrath of Olympus module. Although that module dates pre-gazetteer settings, and tries to create a new pantheon on RW Roman gods in Darokin. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:57:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: POLL: Well, now you know what that means... :)Was:[MYSTARA] Asterius in Karameikos..... In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F7255891176@JOSHUA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ...I think we have come to some sort of resolution here: ...If it is true that the Wrath of Olympus module messed up, I think it is possible Bruce Heard erred as well (He possibly used that module as a reference to create the CoK pantheon). I honestly think the result can only be one of two possibilities here.. Either: 1) Bruce Heard made a boo boo. He really meant Koryis to be the main patron of CoK. (This is what I think) OR 2) Asterius IS the main patron of Karameikos after all... Except now there could be a SERIOUS religious schism in the CoK.. Take your pick? :) If you have a "third" option I would also like to hear that too! The games begin! :) Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:54:55 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: POLL: Well, now you know what that means... :)Was:[ MYSTARA] Asterius in Karameikos..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 1) Bruce Heard made a boo boo. He really meant Koryis to be the main patron of CoK. (This is what I think) OR 2) Asterius IS the main patron of Karameikos after all... Except now there could be a SERIOUS religious schism in the CoK.. Take your pick? :) If you have a "third" option I would also like to hear that too! The games begin! :) Third option: I believe this may have been used several times to explain little typos or errors in the past. Asterius in order to gain a more legitimate following in Karameikos and within the CoK, borrowed some followers of Koryis to assist him in that arena. Koryis, always the pushover for peace, allowed this to happen as then Koryis could then borrow followers of Asterius to be more of followers of peace. In the end result we have two immortals impersonating as one in a mutually beneficial area. Asterius has more legit followers, Koryis has more peace loving mortals. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:16:36 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > I'd like to commend Agathokles' assessment of the > civil unrest origins within the CoK. I think it is > very good. I do see it as very probable that it could > be a Vanya vs. other CoK Immortals issue (I have > trouble seeing Asterius as a CoK patron). Since > neither the Gazetteer nor K:KoA IIRC talks about why > the struggles are there, this is the most logical > reasoning I have seen... Especially since Vanya is > semi-officially a patron of Karameikos. Thanks. I'd like to point out the fact that the struggle within the CoK is ascribed by the Gaz to the xenophobic ideas of Oderbry's faction, which fits well with the ideas of Vanya's more extremist followers (the HK, for example). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:22:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Languages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > I have 2 questions concerning language. > > 1) Is a human character able to speak a dragon language? Or is it impossible > because the dragons use their roars in the language (or other sounds the > human body can't make)? If it's just louder, I'd say it would be possible (perhaps with an appropriate spell support to be heard). If the speech includes sounds above or below the spectrum allowed to the human hear, you'd need a specific spell (that is, ventriloquism and the like would not help). > 2) Do you need to spend a language proficiency slot for each elven dialect > your character has? Or do dialects go by different rules than languages? Except for dialect very similar to the original language, I adopt the following rule: you get the base language for 1 slot, and 2 dialects for every additional slot. Ex: 1st slot - Thyatian (Thyatis Common) 2nd slot - Thyatian (Kerendan, Hattian) You don't need another slot to speak Caurenzan -that would just be Kerendan with a different accent. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:42:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church ofKarameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > Yes, Asterius is the patron of merchants and > thievery but for EXACTLY those reasons (along with him > being of the Blackmoor civilization) why would he be > the patron of Karameikos? Since when was The fact of being from Blackmoor doesn't matter: the Blackmoorians have been dead for ages, so he had to find a new market... something that a merchant would understand quite clearly. He thought Karameikos was a strategic position for trade, and jumped on the first occasion to set a foot there. Vanya had different motives, while the other Immortals just followed, either to keep a tab on those two (the demihuman patrons), or just to gain a little more power base (Valerias, whose portfolio was not adequately covered by Petra). > trade/thievery so important to the CoK? It just does > not make sense to me. I know that Karameikos, being a > seaside nation (along with Thyatis) that trade is > somewhat important to it... But not so important that > the CoK would have such strong credences about it? I > mean, there is no mention at all of mercantilistic > principles in the belief system of the CoK, LOL. No? Clerics of the CoK are not above selling their pardon for sins... The whole philosophy of purification is very mercantilistic, IMO. Even if there's no money exchange: you sort of contract a debt when you sin, then repay it with good acts or prayers/atonement... > Nor, > do I see the CoK lauding thieves. On the contrary, the > CoK would be vehemently opposed to thievery and see it > as a considerable sin (they might even frown at too > much money). If the church was so adamant about trade, > there would be some kind of merchant-subset > organization of the CoK or something similar to > espouse those beliefs... I think he just acts in his merchant aspect within the CoK. However, you would note that Karameikos has an high number of Thieves' Guild, with respect to its population... a good terrain for Asterius to colonize, someday. > I just do not get that correlation between trade and > Karameikos. Although it is true that trade is > important to Karameikos as well as most nations (save > for maybe the Atruaghin Clans) in the Known World, > when I think of trade as so important to a nation that > it would have Asterius as their patron, only two > countries come to mind: The Minrothad Guilds and The > Republic of Darokin. All other nations in the Known > World depend on these two for trade. I could see > Asterius being a major patron of these two (and he is) > but the whole CoK, Asterius correlation escapes me, I don't think Asterius is a major patron of Minrothad. His power base is more in Thyatis and Darokin. Since Karameikos is stuck exactly between those countries, he probably found it a place to control, even if for no other reason than keeping it from becoming a nuisance (imagine what could have happened to the region, had the Black Eagle got the upper hand, with the support of Vanya's extremist clergy... another HK in the middle of the KW!) > But then, Asterius could just as likely be the patron > of any other nation as he would for Karameikos. Why > die Asterius choose Karameikos? As far as the Because it was available: it was part of an Empire where Asterius' cult is strong, and it was near to his other power base, Darokin. Moreover, part of the population was composed by new colonists, who would be receptive of the new Church's teachings. Also, he could take advantage of Vanya's crusader to bash the CoT without dirtying his own (or his clergy's) hands... > connection thing goes, as someone brought up remember > that WoTI changed Chardastes patronage from being of > CoK(in B1-9) to CoT to better reflect that he is of > Traladaran origin (and would make sense for him to > advocate the CoT) and not of Thyatian lineage. On the Chardastes matter, I think he is worshipped by both Churches. IMO, he already was a minor hero in the Traladaran Pantheon. Then the CoK added it to his own pantheon, to invite more Traladarans to convert. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:21:56 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: POLL: Well,now you know what that means... :)Was:[MYSTARA] Asterius inKarameikos..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > 1) Bruce Heard made a boo boo. He really meant Koryis > to be the main patron of CoK. (This is what I think) I doubt that an Alphatian Immortal would lead a Thyatian Pantheon... or that the Thyatian would follow him. Moreover, while Koryis is a patron of peace and prossperity, nowhere is said that he is the only Immortal interested in keeping the peace. IMHO, Immortals aren't monoliths, obsessed by a single value... Think Halav: he is a patron of the Traladarans, but elsewhere he takes the role of god of war, or patron of weaponsmiths. So other Immortals can, and will, extend their portfolios when needed. Of course, when another Immortal who is a specialist in a field is around, the opportunists often find easier to relocate, either geographically or within the pantheon. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:52:35 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church ofKarameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yeah, there's no reference to Asterius as a patron of peace and prosperity in the listings of Immortals from any source, but it's quite implied in his interests (you don't trade too nicely when you're warring nonstop) and also in his actions in some material (his diplomatic activity during the War). He's not aggressive and prefers tact and left-handedness, be it negotiation or thievery, these are different aspects of him. I used the word *interes* instead of portfolio to avoid messing Immortals up, but it has happened anyway... Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:40:37 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: To Agathokles about Poll In-Reply-To: <3AE5EE74.F2A263A@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I doubt that an Alphatian Immortal would lead a > Thyatian Pantheon... or > that the Thyatian would follow him. Oooppps.. Let that one slip my judgement! Yeah, you are definitely right about this. The CoK (which is virtually Thyatian)members would never revere an Alphatian Immortal no matter how "nice" appears.. Moreover, while > Koryis is a patron > of peace and prossperity, nowhere is said that he is > the only Immortal > interested in keeping the peace. > IMHO, Immortals aren't monoliths, obsessed by a > single value . So > other Immortals can, > and will, extend their portfolios when needed. Of > course, when another > Immortal who is a specialist in a field is around, > the opportunists > often find easier to relocate, either geographically > or within the > pantheon. > -- So, do you suggest that Asterius has a different portfolio altogether for Mystara? That is possible. It just lacks complete sense to me that Asterius with his present portfolio be the "MAJOR" (we are not talking just any class of Immortal folks.. We are talking their most IMPORTANT Immortal) Immortal of the CoK.. Yes, yes, I know that the priests are not beyond accepting bribes for sins and other such acts.. But these are just behind-the-scenes hypocritical acts that happen in any religion. I am a Catholic so I can criticize some of the rituals in my own religion. :) I won't get into them to not get into a religious war... But whatever "bad" things the church does is NOT reflective of the church belief system but of human sin. I.E. Even though bribes must occur in CoK it does not mean that the priests believe in that and teach that to the masses. The CoK belief system (even though there are hypocrites) states that thieving is bad, bribery is bad, murder is bad .. and these beliefs do not coincide with the actual "undercover sins" that the church members might perform off service. That said just because priests might accept bribes, does NOT mean that they worship the "bribe God"..As a result, nor does that make the church believe in Asterius. It is just something "sinful" that they decided to let slip. I mean how many times in RL, you have priests preaching all this goodness and then when they service is over they revert to their sinful ways? THIS is EXACTLY what is happening with the CoK. The hypocritical priest in our real world might struggle with bribes and/or adultery (for instance) yet he still does NOT believe in it... He regrets it but has trouble removing that from his life.. I just can not imagine going into a CoK weekly service and see the masses lauding theft, and the "great things about money" as if it were nothing. It just does not happen. When the CoK clergy teach the masses, they do not teach these aspects of Asterius, but rather they teach : MORALITY (regardless of hidden practices amongst the clergy). This is what the CoK claims iself to be: a paradigm of morality. Thieving, for instance, just does not fit this bill. I say that the CoK should have a better immortal to advocate the beliefs that the church strives to believe. THAT is what decides who the church's patron is. If indeed the CoK reveres Asterius it is NOT for mercantilism/thievery. This would not make for a good reputation or seem "moral." If intending to leave Asterius as he his, I would suggest giving him a portfolio change for the nation of Karameikos. I believe his portfolio be vastly different than those goals in Thyatis and Darokin. It could very well be he has adapted a portfolio of "peace" for Karameikos. No wonder the CoK would revere him! Lastly, you made a comment about the higher proportion of thieves in Karameikos with respect to the population Well, yes I can DEFINITELY see Asterius as a minor immortal revered by the resident thieves in any nation really... He just won't be revered by a supposedly strict anti-sin institution such as the Church of Karameikos (except for a few people) UNLESS he modified his portfolio... Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:54:49 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Tzimisce Subject: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! I�d like to know where I could find some information about the Heldannic Knights and their land? (When they were created?) What (or where) is Denegoth? I read about an immortal called Idris from this land in the Rise of Immortals (Lighthouse site), but I never saw nothing about it. Thanks in advance, Tzimisce ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth In-Reply-To: <001801c0cd11$b79afda0$eb0ef2c8@x6o3s3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Certainly! The first link sends you to the Heldann section of the Vaults of Pandius site.. It has a compilation of all the Heldann material made by Bruce Heard and many others on this list.. http://www.dnd.starflung.com/knwnwrld.html#heldann This second link is another site I had found with much (but not all) of the same material organized into sections.. i.e. Politics, Geography, History..etc http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/gazetteers/thenorth/hknights/heldannindex.htm Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:17:45 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:22:49 +0200, G.P. Agosta wrote: >Andr=E9s Piquer Otero wrote: > >> >> Yes, I thought of that (IMC, that's one of the main sources of tension >> between both churches), but IMO it could have undergone a change in the >> post-WotI years, as Vanya turns her attention away from Karameikos and >> "selling off" nations. Anyway, her bonds to the Church of Karameikos should >> not be that strong: > >I think this can explain the unrest within the CoK. Oderbry and is >followers are IMO priests of Vanya (while Jowett, and perhaps Sherlane >too, is a priest of Asterius). Also, I suppose the Order of the Griffon >is strongly influenced by the priesthood of Vanya. > >As to Vanya's bond with Karameikos, I think she enjoyed at first the >idea of colonizing the hated Traladara, and would rather bring her >followers to an holy war than simply withdraw from the CoK pantheon. >-- > I like to add here that p.30 of B1-9: In Search of Adventure establishes Chardastes as belonging to the Church of Karameikos. It may sound odd, but the description in the book makes sense, I think. It also gave me the impression that Sherlane might be a cleric of Chardastes himself, but there doesn't seem to be a specific reference to this, so it might not be the case at all. It does make one wonder why Chardastes is involved in this struggle between Elwyn and the CoK, Sherlane among them, though. On the subject of why there would be a division among the churches and the Immortals involved, I think it's worth noting just how much conflict religion in general has caused throughout history in the real world. I won't mention examples because I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but I do believe the conflicts between the faiths in Mystara are extremely mild compared to what they have been in the real world, especially since Mystara has a lot of Immortals for potential trouble! Let alone the fact that frictions that can evolve between the factions of just one faith, such as the Jowett/Oderbry thing! - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:43:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Hmmm..Something is not right here.MYSTARA] Church ofKarameikos On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:42:45 +0200, Agathokles wrote: (major snip) > >> But then, Asterius could just as likely be the patron >> of any other nation as he would for Karameikos. Why >> die Asterius choose Karameikos? As far as the > >Because it was available: it was part of an Empire where Asterius' cult >is strong, and it was near to his other power base, Darokin. > Yes. Also, don't forget that Traladara was part of the Thyatian empire for 70 years before Stefan even began turning it into the 'Grand Duchy of Karameikos' (when it was really an independent kingdom). During those 70 years, there would have been no Church of Karameikos, but the Thyatian settlers/overlords would have established a branch of the Church of Thyatis, and the CoK was then probably founded on that. >> connection thing goes, as someone brought up remember >> that WoTI changed Chardastes patronage from being of >> CoK(in B1-9) to CoT to better reflect that he is of >> Traladaran origin (and would make sense for him to >> advocate the CoT) and not of Thyatian lineage. > >On the Chardastes matter, I think he is worshipped by both Churches. >IMO, he already was a minor hero in the Traladaran Pantheon. Then the >CoK added it to his own pantheon, to invite more Traladarans to convert. > Well, it's slightly more complicated than that, but it's not a big matter. See p.30 of B1-9 if you get the chance, though. - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:00:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: POLL: Well, now you know what that means... :)Was:[MYSTARA] Asterius in Karameikos..... On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:57:26 -0700, Ramses Ramirez wrote: >...I think we have come to some sort of resolution >here: > >...If it is true that the Wrath of Olympus module >messed up, I think it is possible Bruce Heard erred as >well (He possibly used that module as a reference to >create the CoK pantheon). I honestly think the result >can only be one of two possibilities here.. Either: > >1) Bruce Heard made a boo boo. He really meant Koryis >to be the main patron of CoK. (This is what I think) > Koryis is an Alphatian Immortal (during his mortal life he was Alphatian and he's not worshipped much outside the Alphatian empire (according to sources like DotE and PWAs 2 and 3, IIRC). Given that the CoK was founded by Thyatians, I find this highly unlikely to say the least! (Yes, you could argue that Ochalea, a part of the Thyatian empire, is dedicated to Koryis, but Ochalea was founded by discontent Alphatians dedicated to Koryis and their faith in him does not seem to have spread beyond Ochalea). > OR > >2) Asterius IS the main patron of Karameikos after >all... Except now there could be a SERIOUS religious >schism in the CoK.. > I fail to see why you think this is such a big problem. There are several Immortals who have interests that might seem slightly in conflict with each other, but it's not without precedence in the real world. In this case, Asterius clearly seems (to me anyway) to be based on Hermes in the Greek mythology who is also a god of merchants and thieves. You could say this is a conflict and that he might have no followers because of it, but don't forget that he is devine. Merchants aren't likely to say, "I won't worship you if you support thieves", no, they are more likely to make offers to him saying, "Oh, great Asterius, you are the master of both merchants and thieves. If I give you this gift, please spare my wares from your crafty thieves". In this sense, Asterius would be similar to Protius, who, despite that he doesn't care about humans, is worshipped by sailors in the hope that they may appease him so that he won't use the sea to kill them. You could argue that Asterius is a fraud, then, and that other Immortals might use that against him, but consider Bozdogan, who is just another name for Loki - it's one and the same. Do we hear other Immortals use this fact against him? No. All the Immortals likely know it's one person, so why don't they use that against him? Well, for one thing, Loki/Bozdogan's followers probably wouldn't believe it anyway. - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:24:49 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you all using the gaziters for all your info? If i sound abit "off" it's becaus i always thought that the most promant "immortles" where the triladare trio as stated in K:KoA. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: To Stalker(And all others who care to read).. About Asterius In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii : > > > >1) Bruce Heard made a boo boo. He really meant > Koryis > >to be the main patron of CoK. (This is what I > think) > > > > > > OR > > > >2) Asterius IS the main patron of Karameikos after > >all... Except now there could be a SERIOUS > religious > >schism in the CoK.. > I fail to see why you think this is such a big > problem. There are several > Immortals who have interests that might seem > slightly in conflict with each > other, but it's not without precedence in the real > world. In this case, > Asterius clearly seems (to me anyway) to be based on > Hermes in the Greek > mythology who is also a god of merchants and > thieves. You could say this is > a conflict and that he might have no followers > because of it, but don't > forget that he is devine. First, yes someone had already pointed out to me my error with Koryis patronizing Karameikos.. I forgot that the guy was Alphatian. :) No...I think you missed some posts and misunderstood my point. I am not debating how different the portfolio of merchants is from that of thieves.. I am saying why the heck would the CENTRAL, most IMPORTANT Immortal of an extremely strict church that tries to keep high moral standards (a real stickler on being a goodie-goodie) all of a sudden unversally accept Asterius (the parton of THIEVES and Merchants) as their most revered Immortal? To me... It just makes no sense. You can argue that being between his other two power bases (Darokin and Thyatis), that Karameikos proved to be available and expedient.. However, why would the clergy believe in him? At most he should have a small following among the thieves in the nation but NOT the church! Especially with his beliefs.. I mean, a church that penalizes you for minor thefts would NOT have the Lord of Thieves as their mascot. To me this is as random as imagining The Elves of Alfheim all of a sudden revering the dwarven Immortal, Kagyar or something? Why? To me, it does not make sense. THAT is my beef. In fact, with the far less stringent belief system of the rival Church of Traldara, I would find Asterius patronizing them instead to be far more believable. In fact, with Blackmoor LONG extinct, Asterius should not have ANY racial tyes to anyone anyways.. For the above and after fighting all day :), I thought that the best way to solve this would be to: 1) Find another Immortal that more closely describes the interests of the CoK OR 2)As Agathokles mentioned... Portfolios do change and the Immortal can have different portfolios in different nations. Perhaps change Asterius' "Karameikan" portfolio to that of "morality" or "honor" or something similar.. I dunno, just not a portfolio that completely contradicts the tenets of the church it is supposed to adhere to. My 2 cents Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:13:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Larry, I think most of the info we are using in this discussion is form the Wrath of the Immortals Boxed Set (at least I am) , Gaz1: Grand Duchy of Karameikos and/or K:KoA.. Although I have read some people using other sources such as the DoTE, and the PWAs as well... Lancer --- "Larry E. Lamb" wrote: > Are you all using the gaziters for all your info? If > i sound abit "off" it's > becaus i always thought that the most promant > "immortles" where the triladare > trio as stated in K:KoA. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:30:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: alternative "pantheon" for CoK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there, With all the buzz about the Church of Karameikos and its Immortals,= I thought I'd present what I'm doing in my campaign. My impression from= GAZ1 and other materials is that the CoK is a break-away group from Thyatis= that wanted to create a new religion with their own philosophy. In the= grand tradition of OD&D, which does not emphasize individual= Immortal-worship for clerics as a standard, I have kept the CoK more= concerned with their philosophy than anything else. Even the Thyatians, in= my campaign, are not obsessed with particular Immortals, and are more than= happy to "import" new Immortals. The CoK, then, allows for the worship of= any Immortal so long as it doesn't conflict with their philosophy. Still,= having evolved from the Thyatian religion, the Church has a bias towards a= subset of the Immortals from Thyatis, based on how well those Immortals= port over to Karameikan needs. Also, btw, IMC the Church of Traladara is= focused on the trinity of Halav, Petra, and Zirchev (only), and as you can= infer from what's below, the CoK has specific strategies to take the= Traladaran religion into account in its attempts to convert. What follows= is based on what I provided as background to my cleric PC on Immortals= well-known to the CoK. Parts are taken straight from DotE. Immortals. The Church of Karameikos emphasizes its philosophy over= veneration of a specific set of Immortals. Nonetheless, they treat all= known Immortals with respect or fear, and while there is no official= =93pantheon,=94 for the Church of Karameikos, Immortals feared and/or= venerated by the Church of Thyatis are best known. Thus, those Immortals= that receive the most attention, worship, and/or reference are a subset of= the Thyatian favorites. These =93imported=94 Immortals include: Asterius. He is the Patron of Trade and Commerce, and merchants= pray to him. Because Karameikos aspires to be a great trade nation,= Asterius is well-liked. He is also the patron of thievery. Diulanna. Patroness of Will. This Immortal of the= Thyatian-conquered Hinterlands, whom the Thyatians are now eagerly= studying, represents the belief that with enough willpower and= determination, one can achieve anything. Since she is new in Thyatis, she= is not the subject of much religious focus in Karameikos, but still fills a= unique niche and is appealed to by those facing impossible odds, especially= down-trodden Traladaran members of the Church of Karameikos. Halav. Patron of Warfare and Weaponmaking. This is one and the= same with the Traladarans=92 Halav. He has been known to and venerated by= the Thyatians since before the conquest of Traladara. He exemplifies the= teacher who is also a warrior. The Church of Karameikos is very careful in= their representation of Halav. On one hand they enjoy reassuring potential= Traladaran converts that members of the Church of Karameikos, too, worship= Halav. On the other they worry about stimulating Traladaran nationalism= and want Traladaran converts to de-emphasize Halav in their worship. (See= section on Viuden). Ilsundal. Patron of Elvenkind. His ways are followed by the elves= in Thyatis, and also the Callarii. While the Church of Karameikos avoids= proselytizing to the Callarii, they find it worth paying respects to= Ilsundal both for political reasons and because, as an Immortal associated= with the forest and nature, he represents an alternative to Zirchev for= that sphere of influence, which is useful when trying to wean Traladaran= converts away from their steady devotion to the Traladaran trinity. Kagyar. Patron of Artisans and Dwarvenkind. His ways are followed= by the dwarves in Thyatis and in Karameikos, and by many who have= artistic/craftsman leanings and abilities. For Traladaran conversion= purposes, Kagyar is to Petra as Ilsundal is to Zirchev, since both Kagyar= and Petra concern themselves, in part, with craftsmanship. Koryis. Patron of Peace and Prosperity. This Immortal is favored by= merchants, for the same reason that Asterius is. =93Real=94 warriors and= the Order of the Griffon sneer at him for his pacifistic teachings. Protius. The Old Man of the Sea. This Immortal represents the sea= in all its aspects--treacherous, beautiful, bountiful, terrifying. Many= ship-captains, navy men, and Traladaran fishermen converts venerate= Protius. Tarastia. She is the Patroness of Justice and Revenge. Thanatos. This death-loving Immortal hates all life, and serves as= a convenient representation of evil (i.e. boogey-man) for the Church. Valerias. Patroness of Love; Girder-On of Weapons. She promotes= love and romanceespecially fiery, passionate romance. But she is also= believed to bring weapons to those in need and is a capable fighter. The= romantic Traladarans like Valerias a great deal, perhaps even more than the= Thyatians, regardless of whether they belong to the Church of Karameikos or= Church of Traladara. Viuden(Odin). This Immortal fills nearly the same niche as Halav,= i.e. the wedding of warfare with wisdom. The Church tries to reorient= Traladaran converts toward this Immortal at the same time that they try to= make them feel =93at home=94 in the Church with its veneration of Halav. = He is popular with the Order of the Griffon. Extra notes: In Thyatis they don=92t really pay much attention to Petra and= Zirchev, and the Church of Karameikos makes a point of ignoring them as= much as possible--it is enough to use Halav as a hook for converts. IMC= based in AC1000, the CoK doesn't really care about Alphatia. Hence they= don't care much about Alphaks. Korotiku is seen as too subversive. Thor= is considered too barbaric. Vanya is considered too conquest-oriented and= too much of a symbol of Thyatian nationalism. Magus Coeruleus ./ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \. < David S Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu > | PhD Candidate ~|~ 858-534-9754(lab)/-1128(fax) | < UCSD Cog Sci ~|~ cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland > .\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ /. "Do you have any idea how fun well-grounded moral indignation is?" -- Ralph Nader, UCSD ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:37:48 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "Larry E. Lamb" Subject: Re: alternative "pantheon" for CoK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well now.....im going to use this tid-bit of info.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:39:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: (CONFUSED?!) WAS:[MYSTARA] Church of Karameikos In-Reply-To: Ramses Ramirez 's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:26:02 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Lancer writes; >This is a slight tangent.. but does anyone find >it odd that Vanya espoused Petra for >Immortality in the first place? Isn't that weird >considering Petra's Milenian (and therefore >Traldar) origins? Why would Vanya have just >ignored that and sponsor her anyway knowing >this? This is a misprint/error ( found in the Hollow world materials IIRC). Protius sponsored Petra. Petra was an immortal quite a while before Vanya was. There is also another native Traladaran Immortal many forget about, and that is Orcus, who was a devil swine in life. Undead Hunters in Karameikos should be a bit wary, ere they earn the emnity of Orcus. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:19:06 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Tzimisce Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The first link sends you to the Heldann section of the > Vaults of Pandius site.. It has a compilation of all > the Heldann material made by Bruce Heard and many > others on this list.. > > http://www.dnd.starflung.com/knwnwrld.html#heldann > > > This second link is another site I had found with much > (but not all) of the same material organized into > sections.. i.e. Politics, Geography, History..etc > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/gazetteers/thenorth/hknights/heldanni ndex.htm Thanks! The material is really good. The Heldannic Knights are described only in the Champions of Mystara Boxed Set? Tzimisce ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth >The material is really good. >The Heldannic Knights are described only in the Champions of Mystara Boxed >Set? > >Tzimisce Pretty much, AFAIK. There is some information about them in the Poor Wizard's Almanacs series (PWA I-III), as well as the online Mystaran Almanacs. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:56:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Max Monas Subject: Karameikos/Darokin feel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, I've got a little questiuon. Namely: My PCs are travelling from Karameikos to Darokin. As far as I understood Darokin is more advanced and a lot wealhtier than Karameikos is. My question is: How do I make that clear. What, do you think, is a good way to point out the differences. I heard one good piece of advice, describe the cities differently. In Darokin there is more wealth, so the cities would look more wealthy but how do you use this in description. I don't think you could say: "The cities here look more wealthy than the ones in Karameikos". I'd like to give Karameikos and Darokin (and every other country for that matter) a completely different feel. Any idea of how to bring this about? Max _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:51:08 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth In-Reply-To: <200104251319.JAA28567@freenet10.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Could anybody tell me where the Heldannic Knights were first mentioned? I have a vague recollection (back when I owned all this stuff the first time) that the Knights were originally nothing more than a name and was surprised at the direction Bruce Heard took them. I was also disappointed by that because I had intended to take the in a COMPLETELY different direction making them Heldannic "paladins" fighting against Thyatian oppression. Has this sort of thing ever happened to anyone else- you want to develope some aspect of Mystara only to have the rug pulled out from under you by "official" material? If so, how did you deal with it? VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:25:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: Karameikos/Darokin feel In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > Any idea of how to bring this about? Concerning Darokin- I'd use a visual reference like the movies Dangerous Liaisons or The Three Musketeers. Men and women wearing fine, luxurious clothing- everyone having a refined look to them; people being taxied about in fancy coaches; Intricate and artistic architecture- fountains, boulevards, statues, gold-domed roofs, etc; and probably the most important- a noticeable lack of that "rampant, mutant B.O." (thank you Seinfeld) that tends to accompany large medieval cities. Oh, yeah and glass- lots of glass windows as opposed to simple glass-less shuttered windows. In general, I would go with a Renaissance/Elizabethan look. Seems to work for me, at any rate. VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:57:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: To Agathokles about Poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > So, do you suggest that Asterius has a different > portfolio altogether for Mystara? That is possible. It > just lacks complete sense to me that Asterius with his > present portfolio be the "MAJOR" (we are not talking > just any class of Immortal folks.. We are talking > their most IMPORTANT Immortal) Immortal of the CoK.. I suggest that Asterius has, at least in Karameikos, Thyatis, and Darokin, a portfolio more centred about his "trade" aspect than his "thievery" one. I see it this way: Asterius originally was a fence, and later a legitimate merchant. When he became Immortal, he kept both sides of his mortal life in his portfolio -though of course his followers need not know this. In time, he added other aspects to his portfolio: he is a moon god, for example. When Blackmoor was destroyed, civilization regressed, so there would have been a major collapse of the merchant class, and of thieves' guilds too. So he became known as patron of the Moon, which is still is symbol. Later, when civilization resurfaced, he was quick to reestablish is power base among merchants and thieves. Of course, when he acts alone, his priests manage both of his major aspects -trade and thievery. But when he acts within a pantheon, he would probably show only his trade aspect, in order to avoid embarassing the other immortals. So, IMO the priests of Asterius in the CoK only need to see Asterius in his aspect as patron of the merchants and the Moon. Since the pantheon of the CoK is rather small, many areas remain uncovered (ex: there's no real patron of peace in the CoK pantheon), so Asterius can fit some of them. The average priest of the CoK sees Asterius as the Moon Immortal, patron of trade, but also of travellers, peace, purification etc. > Yes, yes, I know that the priests are not beyond > accepting bribes for sins and other such acts.. That's only the worst case, something which deviates from the Church's standards. But the Church's philosophy involves a mercantile attitude, not necessarily involving bribes. It's just that most (every?) sin may be balanced with a penance... I suppose that the priests of Asterius are more common among those who share the mercantile view of their religion, while those of Vanya or Kagyar may be less indulgent with sinners. > I just can not imagine going into a CoK weekly service > and see the masses lauding theft, and the "great > things about money" as if it were nothing. Nor I do. As I said, I don't think they even know about this aspect of Asterius' portfolio. > I say that the CoK should have a better immortal to > advocate the beliefs that the church strives to > believe. THAT is what decides who the church's patron > is. If indeed the CoK reveres Asterius it is NOT for > mercantilism/thievery. This would not make for a good > reputation or seem "moral." If intending to leave > Asterius as he his, I would suggest giving him a > portfolio change for the nation of Karameikos. I > believe his portfolio be vastly different than those > goals in Thyatis and Darokin. It could very well be he > has adapted a portfolio of "peace" for Karameikos. No > wonder the CoK would revere him! I just don't see it as being *vastly* different. Just selecting the right part of his portfolio, and growing it into something more complete. You start from trade, and you add peace (otherwise you don't have much trade), honesty (since trade is supposed to follow the laws and be fair), travellers (since trades need security for the travellers), prosperity (which is what trade should bring -at least to the trader). > Lastly, you made a comment about the higher proportion > of thieves in Karameikos with respect to the > population > Well, yes I can DEFINITELY see Asterius as a minor > immortal revered by the resident thieves in any nation > really... He just won't be revered by a supposedly > strict anti-sin institution such as the Church of > Karameikos (except for a few people) UNLESS he > modified his portfolio... My comment was meant to hint that perhaps Asterius is/will be grooming a less official branch of his cult, concerned with thievery, and that his original interest in Karameikos was due to seeing some potential for this development. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:26:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tzimisce wrote: <> You can also find TONS of information on the Heldannic Knights and their= holdings (including maps) in the Mystaran Almanac, available in these three= sites: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/ http://dnd.starflung.com/ http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/ <> Idris is the patron immortal of the Church of Idris, a shady cult that= thrives in Denagoth, an even shadier place where humanoids live alongside= barbaric humans and dragons rule the skies and swamps. Denagoth is nestled= between Heldann and Wendar and is technically part of Norwold. It was= originally described in X11, Saga of the Shadow Lord. Denagoth is also fully described in the Mystaran Almanac, and the upcoming= almanac (AC1018) will reveal Idris's true nature and history. For a detailed unofficial timeline of Wendar and Denagoth, see: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/wendtml.html Hope this helps. DM=20 Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac=20 First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old:=20 you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:=20 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at:=20 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at:=20 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at:=20 http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:26:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: To Agathokles about Poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > That said just because priests might accept bribes, > does NOT mean that they worship the "bribe God"..As a > result, nor does that make the church believe in > Asterius. It is just something "sinful" that they > decided to let slip. One more thing: I think the real world comparison does not help here. I mean, priests in the RW aren't the same as those on Mystara. Mystaran priests who sin find themselves deprived of their spell, or worse. So, priests accepting bribes would not be tolerated by many Immortals, like Vanya or Kagyar for example. Since the thing has been going on for 30 years, and with a frequency high enough to warrant a mention in the gaz, I'd ascribe it to Asterius' clergy, rather than dismissing it as misbehaving priests. It is entirely possible that when the CoK pantheon was formed, Asterius had to accept to downplay his thievery aspect in order to have the others join his new Church, but he got this tolerance towards bribes as a compensation. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:37:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Church of Karameikos Summary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Havard Faanes wrote: > > Ive toyed with the idea of a Reformed Church of > Karameikos unifying the two groups under the > leadership of Aleena Halaran as the new patriarch in > the future of my campaign. However, even if this were > to happen, many people would probably oppose this for > centuries to come. I don't think the CoT would accept this solution. Even though their philosophy is rather tolerant, it contains the seeds for a much more aggressive policy. An attempt by the CoK to steal the worship of the Traladaran triad from the CoT could well result in a radicalization of the latter Church's philosophy. Also, if Oderbry's faction is still around, it will be the war, and when that's over, many discontented Thyatian would switch back to the Church of Thyatis or the Wings of Vanya, which could then set a foot in Karameikos. Only the Cult of Halav could perhaps be interested in the merge, but I don't think they'd receive a good welcome... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:34:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Paul Benfield Subject: Possible treasure trove Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Anyone interested in getting OD&D and AD&D Mystara products should take a look at this site. http://www.nobleknight.com/ It turned up on a different mailing list I'm on and they list quite a few rare products under their "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" section. Cheers Paul Benfield pab02@yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:13:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "(Zach IC) ()" Subject: Re: Karameikos/Darokin feel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Here we go, Karameikos: All reliable sources suggest that even the Capital, Specularum has brick and cobblestone roads but otherwise minor roads are little more than narrow, well-packed earth. Plumbing is a luxury and sewage is commonly dealt with as it was in early renaissance towns similar to those in Italy and Germany. That would be a trench running down the middle of the street. Hens, goats and other small livestock most likely run somewhat loose in the poorer quarters of Specularum and the houses are made of little more than wood or crude brick. I would guess a good percentage of the walled estates and houses on The Hill would be made of Fired Brick or Stone and maybe a few of the wealthier businesses also. Single and two-story houses and buildings are the norm. Street lamps are probably rare and scarce even along the Major streets. Darokin: Darokin is a little more of an enigma. The Source suggests that streets are commonly fitted stone blocks and an actual sanitation system is in place and probably cosists of a sewer grates along the various major roads and a system of tunnels for drainage. The Merchants Guild Hall itself is five stories and from this I would wager other buildings could be as high as 8 stories or more (esp the Mauntea guild house and estate). I'm guessing a lot of the cooper-class housing outside the city walls is still crude brick and/or wood, but most of the privately owned houses and buisinesses within the city would probably be fired brink and/or stone with the most extravagant houses and estates being in the Gold Class area of town. Street lamps are probably fairly common in the walled areas of the city and in the Silver class housing with more or less extravagant lamps placed in respective areas. Enjoy, Drax >Hi everyone, > >I've got a little questiuon. Namely: My PCs are travelling from Karameikos >to Darokin. As far as I understood Darokin is more advanced and a lot >wealhtier than Karameikos is. My question is: How do I make that clear. >What, do you think, is a good way to point out the differences. I heard one >good piece of advice, describe the cities differently. In Darokin there is >more wealth, so the cities would look more wealthy but how do you use this >in description. I don't think you could say: "The cities here look more >wealthy than the ones in Karameikos". I'd like to give Karameikos and >Darokin (and every other country for that matter) a completely different >feel. Any idea of how to bring this about? > >Max _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:56:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Karameikos/Darokin feel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:56:14 +0200 Max Monas writes: > I've got a little questiuon. Namely: My PCs are travelling from > Karameikos > to Darokin. As far as I understood Darokin is more advanced and a > lot > wealhtier than Karameikos is. My question is: How do I make that > clear. Hmm... a few ideas off of the top of my head... Traveling Enmcounters: 1) Mention the wide, well maintained roads of Darokin as opposed to the forest trails of Karameikos. 2) Have a few bandit encounters in Karameikos, but none in the more civilized Heartlands of Darokin. (Similarily, make it more difficult to get jobs as caravan guards, as they are less needed, at least for domestic routes) 3) In a related note, have the party pass frequent Darokinian military patrols. 4) Have them pass a few large caravans. 5) Mention the extremely large farms along the Streel River. 6) Lots of barge traffic down the Streel River. In the City: 1) Larger homes, larger section of the city with rich folks homes. 2) Sewer system... better sanitation. 3) Working class people wearing colorful clothing or a piece of jewelry (way to demonstrate this last one... have the party chase down a thief who stole a worker's ring, or something similar). 4) Large number of carriages in the streets. 5) More and larger stores, with more variety of items available. Particularly show goods from all over the Known World in the markets. 6) On a related note, have them do buisiness with a Glantrian merchant... or an Alphatian, or a Sindhi, or a Ylari, or a Northman, or a Heldannic... any natioanlity they haven't run into in Karameikos, really. 7) Stress the opulance of the major buildings like the Merchant's Guildhall 8) Stress the size of Darokin (both the Nation and the City, actually... you could fit a couple of Karameikos's into the Republic, and a couple of Specularums into Darokin City). Just a few ideas... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:58:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: To Agathokles about Poll In-Reply-To: <3AE70FFD.BB802DD6@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Since the > pantheon of the CoK > is rather small, many areas remain uncovered (ex: > there's no real patron > of peace in the CoK pantheon), so Asterius can fit > some of them. The > average priest of the CoK sees Asterius as the Moon > Immortal, patron of > trade, but also of travellers, peace, purification > etc. You are basically suggesting trying to "fix" something that does not make sense to begin with. I can basically do this to ANY "good" Immortal on Mystara with non-Alphatian origins. Basically, give me any adjective and I can find a way to make it "good." More about this later.... > > Yes, yes, I know that the priests are not beyond > > accepting bribes for sins and other such acts.. > > That's only the worst case, something which deviates > from the Church's > standards. But the Church's philosophy involves a > mercantile attitude, > not necessarily involving bribes. It's just that > most (every?) sin may > be balanced with a penance... I suppose that the > priests of Asterius are > more common among those who share the mercantile > view of their religion, > while those of Vanya or Kagyar may be less indulgent > with sinners. I don't view absolution as mercantile.. I view it as a form of castigation.. Much like a caring father punishing his disobedient son.. Or any RL Catholic church over a confessed sinner.. Saying this is mercantilistic would be an incorrect use of the term. You are basically saying, any sort of confession that leads to punishment for disobedience is mercantilist in action.. I do not see it that way. I see it as giving the sinner a "lesson" and an opportunity for repentance. > Nor I do. As I said, I don't think they even know > about this aspect of > Asterius' portfolio. Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. People do not realize how quick and easy infomation disseminates across cultures. Asterius' thievish patron aspect would HARLDY be hide-able. You even stated yourself that Asterius is possibly cultivating a less official constituent base with the thieves within Karameikos. Well, these thieves seeing Asterius as their patron would have definitely told others about this.. Which would have told even more "others" and so on.. Many people within Karameikos would know about this.. Things fly by word quickly. If this does not suffice any 18th level (AD&D terms, approx 32th level) high priest worth his salt like Jowett who would be WELL-VERSED in religious aspects would have been familiar with Asterius "other" portfolios anyway. No.. really. Information (with a printing press), people spreading rumors CONCOMITANT with the factor of time would make many of these things common knowledge. Think of all the historians, mages and other educated high level NPCs who have dedicated their lives to the study of Immortals also. Even if the common peasant would not know about this, high level NPCs as in above would. If you still do not believe me... look at your own common knowledge of lore.. I bet you know quite a bit yourself of RL religions and their beliefs without even being a member yourself of that particular religion due to your scholastic explosure, reading, (ok, we also have TV), talking to people...etc. All my knowledge about the Indian religion (and I am not from there or ever been there) is from people telling me about it. In fact, I have my own personal opinion of Christ for instance, and am FULLY AWARE of other people's different viewpoints on how Christ is viewed. Just life's experience do this to you. Mystara is no different. > I just don't see it as being *vastly* different. > Just selecting the > right part of his portfolio, and growing it into > something more > complete. You start from trade, and you add peace > (otherwise you don't > have much trade), honesty (since trade is supposed > to follow the laws > and be fair), travellers (since trades need security > for the > travellers), prosperity (which is what trade should > bring -at least to > the trader). Like I stated before.. If THAT were the case this would apply to any good Non-Alphatian Immortal. Soon enough any good Immortal can be a patron of the Cok! Heck give me Ixion's portfolio of favoring centaurs and then let me modify it so that we have a CoK portfolio that says: Ixion is our lord because he believes in the "friendly" and "peaceful" treatment of forest creatures! If you plan on modifying Asterius' portfolio in that manner, might as well do it for everyone else. What is the difference with changing someone else in place of Asterius? Why try to make something make sense which did not in the first place? Seriously, the whole premise of starting out with trade and "TRYING" to reform it to try to fit it into the nearly Catholic paradigm of the CoK.. does not make sense. I repeat again here.. TRADE has nothing to do with the CoK belief system. Yes, trade might be somewhat important to Karameikos in general, but the CoK has nothing to do with it. I have yet to read anything about the "merchant priests" in the CoK. (If you can find me something anything canon about that then I would like to know) As a result, your intent of modifiying the portfolio of "Trade" and trying to shape it into something good, is honorable.. but still does not make sense. CoK DOES care about honesty, integrity, morality in OVERALL LIFE but NOT how those values pertain to just trade. Why does the CoK have to revolve their core beliefs around trade? Why not basketweaving? Why does the CoK only narrow themselves to "peaceful trade." I did not get that impression reading about them. In other words, The CoK's goals are NOT to find a way to make trade a "honest,moral and peaceful" business, but rather how to make the common follower honest,moral and peaceful... It really stresses how to make the single believer honest and moral in whatever he does in ALL WALKS of everyday life.. Whether it be trade, basketweaving, relationships, in war, love, at home...etc. The CoK has no "obligation" to just trade. > My comment was meant to hint that perhaps Asterius > is/will be grooming a > less official branch of his cult, concerned with > thievery, and that his > original interest in Karameikos was due to seeing > some potential for > this development. You must have some shy thieves. This is a big loophole if you assume that all of Asterius' thievish supporters in Karameikos just remain hush-hush. If Asterius has been working on Karameikos' thieves, it would for sure get around... Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:14:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Possible treasure trove MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey they even have the banned B3!!!! Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Benfield To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Possible treasure trove > Hi all, > Anyone interested in getting OD&D and AD&D Mystara products should take a > look at this site. > > http://www.nobleknight.com/ > > It turned up on a different mailing list I'm on and they list quite a few > rare products under their "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" section. > > Cheers > > Paul Benfield > > pab02@yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Possible treasure trove In-Reply-To: <001701c0cde5$d5d3b440$c4b8fea9@duke> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, thibault sarlat wrote: > hey they even have the banned B3!!!! for $1500.. I doubt any of us are Bill Gates ^_^ Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:49:50 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Michael McConnell Subject: Immortals & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii All this talk of immortals got me thinking about something I was pondering a while back. It's made pretty clear in both the Gold Box and WotI that direct intervention in the affairs of the mortal world is forbidden. There's even councils that watch for this sort of thing. The trouble is, in the published supplements this never seems to be the case. Obviously, things got a little out of hand during the Immortal's War, but the moduels and Gazetteers have Immortals doing things constantly- raising up evil cults, sending down plagues of undead, all that sort of thing. Modules like the Blood Brethren are a good example. And things like Alphaks' sending down the meteor and Rad sinking Alphatia are pretty extreme even given the circumstances of WotI. There's a lot of direct intervention in the higher-level modules especially, such as Talons of Night. In general, I keep the Immortals in the background because they have a tendancy to take center stage in the setting a lot, and I don't like anything to overshadow the PCs. How do other people handle this, and what do people think is an "acceptable" level of Immortal influence? M. Alright honey, I won't be weird. I'll be just the way YOU want me to be. -Lester in "American Beauty" _________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE zombieworld.com Email account at... http://www.evilemail.com zombieworld.com - The dead come back to life, just for you. _________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:22:43 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Re: Immortals & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >All this talk of immortals got me thinking about something I was pondering >a while back. It's made pretty clear in both the Gold Box and WotI that >direct intervention in the affairs of the mortal world is forbidden. >There's even councils that watch for this sort of thing. > What I would like to know is if this is truly the case ( and it is ) then how come can Rad in his alter-ego of Etienne D'Ambreville be a prince in Glantri ? He's pretty influencial there from what I understand. I bet there's an easy awnser for this one but I don't know it. BTW, hi everybody I just joined the list, altough I used to be a member way back, about ... well at least 3-4 years ago maybe more... I don't even know if it's the same list... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:59:32 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Immortals & such In-Reply-To: ; from bleakcabal@HOTMAIL.COM on Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 05:22:43AM -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 05:22:43AM -0000, Bob Dylan wrote: > > > >All this talk of immortals got me thinking about something I was pondering > >a while back. It's made pretty clear in both the Gold Box and WotI that > >direct intervention in the affairs of the mortal world is forbidden. > >There's even councils that watch for this sort of thing. > > > > > What I would like to know is if this is truly the case ( and it is ) then > how come can Rad in his alter-ego of Etienne D'Ambreville be a prince in > Glantri ? He's pretty influencial there from what I understand. I bet > there's an easy awnser for this one but I don't know it. Direct interference as an immortal is forbidden. Etienne is a mortal. He is also Rad, who is immortal, but thats ok, because Etieene can only do mortal things. -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "You're not our only customer you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | know" "But we're one of the few http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | with tactical nuclear weapons" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:51:19 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: To Agathokles about Poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramses Ramirez wrote: > > You are basically suggesting trying to "fix" something > that does not make sense to begin with. I can > basically do this to ANY "good" Immortal on Mystara > with non-Alphatian origins. Basically, give me any > adjective and I can find a way to make it "good." More > about this later.... You can, because Mystaran Immortals (at least some of them) are very practical when it comes to getting more followers. > I don't view absolution as mercantile.. I view it as a > form of castigation.. Much like a caring father > punishing his disobedient son.. Or any RL Catholic > church over a confessed sinner.. Saying this is That's not the Catholic church! It is the CoK. There are no "capital sins", you can always get back with a correct amount of purification. >> Nor I do. As I said, I don't think they even know >> about this aspect of >> Asterius' portfolio. > > Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I > bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. No, there's no printing press. At least IMC. > Think of all the historians, mages and other educated > high level NPCs who have dedicated their lives to the > study of Immortals also. Even if the common peasant > would not know about this, high level NPCs as in above > would. If you still do not believe me... look at your > own common knowledge of lore.. I bet you know quite a > bit yourself of RL religions and their beliefs without > even being a member yourself of that particular > religion due to your scholastic explosure, reading, > (ok, we also have TV), talking to people...etc. All my > knowledge about the Indian religion (and I am not from > there or ever been there) is from people telling me > about it. In fact, I have my own personal opinion of > Christ for instance, and am FULLY AWARE of other > people's different viewpoints on how Christ is viewed. > Just life's experience do this to you. Mystara is no > different. You are speaking about *religions*, not *immortals*. The fact that you know something about a religion doesn't mean you know something about its immortals. Would you recognize the same immortal under two different names. Then, christians have been aware of others who had different viewpoints of Christ for a long time: they called them "heretics"... Perhaps the CoK preaches that thieving followers of Asterius are heretics. > Like I stated before.. If THAT were the case this > would apply to any good Non-Alphatian Immortal. Soon > enough any good Immortal can be a patron of the Cok! > Heck give me Ixion's portfolio of favoring centaurs > and then let me modify it so that we have a CoK > portfolio that says: Ixion is our lord because he > believes in the "friendly" and "peaceful" treatment of Yes, but Ixion wasn't there to do so. But he would have done so, had he been there at the right moment: the fact that Ixion's basic portfolio includes the Sun and Centaurs does not prevent him to become patron of goblinoids, who are not known for their sunlight tolerate, or deep love of forest creatures... And I doubt that a Narvaezan follower of Ixion would share the same beliefs as said goblinoids, or the Centaurs. BTW, Ixion's church in Narvaez is based on Catholic church too (if more radical than the CoK), and Alfric Oderbry would be a perfect member of that church as well. > forest creatures! If you plan on modifying Asterius' > portfolio in that manner, might as well do it for > everyone else. What is the difference with changing > someone else in place of Asterius? Why try to make > something make sense which did not in the first place? > Seriously, the whole premise of starting out with > trade and "TRYING" to reform it to try to fit it into > the nearly Catholic paradigm of the CoK.. does not > make sense. I repeat again here.. TRADE has nothing to > do with the CoK belief system. Yes, trade might be > somewhat important to Karameikos in general, but the > CoK has nothing to do with it. I have yet to read > anything about the "merchant priests" in the CoK. (If > you can find me something anything canon about that > then I would like to know) As a result, your intent of > modifiying the portfolio of "Trade" and trying to > shape it into something good, is honorable.. but still > does not make sense. CoK DOES care about honesty, > integrity, morality in OVERALL LIFE but NOT how those > values pertain to just trade. Why does the CoK have to > revolve their core beliefs around trade? Why not > basketweaving? Why does the CoK only narrow themselves > to "peaceful trade." I did not get that impression > reading about them. In other words, The CoK's goals It doesn't narrow itself to a single goal, because it is a pantheistic Church, and not the "Karameikan Church of Asterius". Do you think the other four Immortals of the CoK would be interested in powering a Church devoted to trade? I think not. They have to find something in common to use as a base for the Church's doctrine. What I'm saying is that you can't take the pantheon leader's portfolio and apply it as a whole to the Church, since there are other Immortals involved. When an Immortal gets in a pantheon, the first thing he wants is to have the church's doctrine to be at least favorable to some aspects of his portfolio. Then, he becomes patron of the most favorable aspects of the Church's doctrine. The CoK cares about honesty in life. Since this is a general value for the church, all its Immortals are supposed to support it. Simply, Asterius would care about honesty in trade, Valerias about honesty in relationships, etc. > You must have some shy thieves. This is a big > loophole if you assume that all of Asterius' thievish > supporters in Karameikos just remain hush-hush. If > Asterius has been working on Karameikos' thieves, it > would for sure get around... He just needs to use a different name. Think Loki/Bozdogan, they aren't widely known to be the same. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:24:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Immortals & such In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Bob Dylan wrote: > What I would like to know is if this is truly the case ( and it is ) then > how come can Rad in his alter-ego of Etienne D'Ambreville be a prince in > Glantri ? He's pretty influencial there from what I understand. I bet > there's an easy awnser for this one but I don't know it. easy: "On the Prime Plane, Direct action against Mortals is forbidden" That meas that An immortal can't pop into darokin in manifestation form and start kicking butt. He can become mortal and start kicking butt, but that's different. If the PC's aren't on the prime, they are fair game for all sorts of Immortal intervention. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:54:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" All this talk of immortals got me thinking about something I was pondering a while back. It's made pretty clear in both the Gold Box and WotI that direct intervention in the affairs of the mortal world is forbidden. There's even councils that watch for this sort of thing. IMC I have always kept religion on a hush hush, except when a player wanted to add that kind of flavor to the game. Even then the Immortals did not interfere much with the actual game, except when pc's gained enough level to see the actual mechanisms the Immortals use. The interferences that Rad made in WotI, and actually part of the cause of the strife was that he was directly interfering as d'Amberville, almost rewards direct interference. The world after WotI should see more direct consequences of mortal's actions on the part of the Immortals. Rad's actions of interference and disrespect of the normal behavior of Immortals gained him a spot as one the Old Ones. It would seem that the Old Ones almost favor a change in the way the Immortals have dealt with things on the prime. Also from the Immortal Boxed set, the prime is still an experiment, just as numerous as the Dragons and Humans are the Draedons and Diaboli on the other end of the spectrum as the most likely candidates for Immortality. So the Immortals of Mystara can't always directly interfere, but they will when it means a potential candidate is of Mystaran stock and not of Diaboli stock. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rad was taken by an Old One, he did not become an Old One. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Cherrington" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Immortals & such > All this talk of immortals got me thinking about something I was pondering a > while back. It's made pretty clear in both the Gold Box and WotI that direct > intervention in the affairs of the mortal world is forbidden. There's even > councils that watch for this sort of thing. > > IMC I have always kept religion on a hush hush, except when a player wanted > to add that kind of flavor to the game. Even then the Immortals did not > interfere much with the actual game, except when pc's gained enough level to > see the actual mechanisms the Immortals use. > The interferences that Rad made in WotI, and actually part of the cause of > the strife was that he was directly interfering as d'Amberville, almost > rewards direct interference. The world after WotI should see more direct > consequences of mortal's actions on the part of the Immortals. Rad's > actions of interference and disrespect of the normal behavior of Immortals > gained him a spot as one the Old Ones. It would seem that the Old Ones > almost favor a change in the way the Immortals have dealt with things on the > prime. > Also from the Immortal Boxed set, the prime is still an experiment, just as > numerous as the Dragons and Humans are the Draedons and Diaboli on the other > end of the spectrum as the most likely candidates for Immortality. So the > Immortals of Mystara can't always directly interfere, but they will when it > means a potential candidate is of Mystaran stock and not of Diaboli stock. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rad was taken by an Old One, he did not become an Old One. True, he did not become an Old One, but he is the first Immortal in several millennium to be contacted or even responded by an Old One. Only one other Immortal had done that, and he did not do it by the norm also. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:22:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) In-Reply-To: <20010425235820.27056.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:58 PM 4/25/01, Ramses Ramirez wrote: >Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I >bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. Anyone's individual campaign may vary, of course, but in OD&D it says that the D&D world is based roughly on 15th century Europe without gunpowder and before the invention of the printing press. I think this is in the Companion set but not sure. My campaigns have never had a printing press and I suspect the majority don't. This is one of the reasons why constructing a library costs so much. In the Glantri GAZ, Book of Wonderous Inventions, etc. books for a magic-user's library (which are references, not themselves magical) costs a pretty penny. By default in D&D, books are all handmade. Magus Coeruleus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:48:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:54:28 -0400 Christopher Cherrington writes: > The interferences that Rad made in WotI, and actually part of the > cause of > the strife was that he was directly interfering as d'Amberville, > almost > rewards direct interference. No, d'Ambreville wasn't at all the cause of the strife between Immortals. It was purely Rad's research into the Nucleus. Now, probably ruling as d'Ambreville (particuallarly since it was his original mortal identity) is seen as "bad taste", but not a reason for war > Rad's > actions of interference and disrespect of the normal behavior of > Immortals > gained him a spot as one the Old Ones. Err... no. The Old One in Wrath of the Immortals firmly states that direct intervention is wrong. Then, in Mark of Amber, it is explicity stated that the Old Ones stripped Rad of his Immortality and cast him into a nether-world dream state until he learned from his mistakes. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:34:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Then, in Mark of Amber, it is explicity stated that the Old Ones stripped Rad of his Immortality and cast him into a nether-world dream state until he learned from his mistakes. I'll have to get that one, sorry for the error's. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:47:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Re: Immortals & such In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F7255891341@JOSHUA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While I can see someone finding ANY contact with an Old One to be the greatest possible honor, nonetheless I believe this contact was intended by the Old One to be part of a punishment, not a reward. At 07:06 AM 4/26/01, Christopher Cherrington wrote: >Rad was taken by an Old One, he did not become an Old One. > > True, he did not become an Old One, but he is the first Immortal in >several millennium to be contacted or even responded by an Old One. Only >one other Immortal had done that, and he did not do it by the norm also. ./ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \. < David S Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu > | PhD Candidate ~|~ 858-534-9754(lab)/-1128(fax) | < UCSD Cog Sci ~|~ cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland > .\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ /. "Do you have any idea how fun well-grounded moral indignation is?" -- Ralph Nader, UCSD ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Immortals & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:06:49 -0400 Christopher Cherrington writes: > Rad was taken by an Old One, he did not become an Old One. > > True, he did not become an Old One, but he is the first Immortal > in > several millennium to be contacted or even responded by an Old One. > Only > one other Immortal had done that, and he did not do it by the norm > also. Yes, he was contacted and reponded to... by being punished. Hardly a path other Immortals would wish to take. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:30:38 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Heldanic Activities in HW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On page 44 of the "Book Two: The Immortal's Fury" book of the WoTI boxed set, it is mentioned that, and I quote : < The Heldanic Knights, a group the Alphatians had paid little attention in the past, were already here, conquering lands and making alliances as fast as they could. > Where are those conquered lands exactly. I tried looking in the PWA and there is no entry of Heldanic Controlled lands. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:02:35 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_14b1_4f24_4c7b" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_14b1_4f24_4c7b Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Here is a little document I did for personal use to flesh out the adventure Mystery in Aegos found in WoTI adventure book. I have included it in .doc format which features font size, italics, bold, etc. to make the whole thing clearer. ------------------------------------ Fleshing out Mystery In Aegos Bleakcabal's add-on ( using Ad&d 2E ) This is an add-on for the quest Mystery In Aegos featured in the WoTI boxed set. For any adventure in which the player will face prehistoric animals or dinosaur I recomend renting The Macmillan Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and prehistoric animals or similar book at a library. This will allow you to show your player what they are facing, give you ideas for more prehistoric creatures, etc. Encounters During Trip Through Pittstown Originally only an encounter with 3 trolls was supposed to happen. I have expended this to make the trip a little more interesting. Day 5 : The party encounter 2 trolls who are lead by 1 two-headed troll. Normal Trolls : HP : 36, 34 Two-Headed Troll : HP : 54 During the fight Scupper will fire darts and daggers and fight with a knife if attacked. I assume he is a 3rd level fighther with HP : 18 Stryl and Torkia will have to fight a normal troll which they will defeat. I assume they are level 5 characters like the party members. Combat Notes : Stryl 5th level fighter, AC 4 ( chain mail, dexterity bonus ), hp 20, Dmg 1d8/1d12 + 1 ( longsword + 1 of strenght bonus ), AL CG, has torch + flint and steel Torkia Nuar 5th level mage, AC 9 ( dexterity bonus ), hp 10, Dmg 1d4/1d3 ( dagger ), AL CG, spells including flame arrow Kelter Zerben and the pc's should be able to take out the two others with support from scupper. If one of the 2 normal troll falls and the pc's are in very bad shape, you can make the two-headed troll order the other to flee the scene. Stryl will light dead trolls with his torch and Torkia will start the fight with a flame arrow spell. Day 7 : The front wagon which is manned by scupper is attacked by a land decapus. The decapus will lauch 2 attacks on Scupper, 2 on each of the two-horse drawing his wagon and another one on the wagon itself. It will try and surprise the party. Decapus : HP : 22 Day 9 : The player's caravan encounters a party a 4 dwarves who were working on the site at Pittstown, they will not reveal anything about their work unless coerced. They are just saying they are heading back to town to help a blacksmith forge very specific parts for their project. Events in the Hollow World I assume the PC's have come in with the army of Aegos. Here is what their schedule will be like. Their group will consist of Stolander, the pc's and as much standard Aegos natives to fill the group to ten members. The PCs will have spare time and during it and also their work time they are free to do whatever they like. Preferably try to learn as much as possible about what is happening here. Neathar Lessons : Because Neathar is a very simple language and the ancestor of Thyatan, you can cut some slack to players wanting to learn Neathar. If characters have a free slot, they will learn Neathar in 2 weeks time. Alternativly you can allow players who will gain a profiency slot next level can gain the language now and not have their proficiency next level. If not you can say the player learn's small bits of the language while not being profecient. Day 1 : Familiarize with the town, the environs, short briefing about the Hollow World ( sun never sets, Azcan Empire, Neathars, giant lizards, magic works differently, etc. nothing big ). Army briefing ( boring stuff, like order of watches, terminology, rules, etc. ). Small Neathar lesson. Day 2 : Morning : exercieses, Noon : dinner, Afternoon : Meeting Stolander, followed by guard duty inside town. After-Supper : Patrol area outside Haldemar town. Small Neathar lesson. Day 3 : That day is spent patroling jungle trails. Here are some encounters the PCs will have to deal with during the day. 1st encounter : The party will be see a Neather warrior of the Hiakrai tribe riding a Hiak ( a giant eagle ). It is doubtful that they will be able to catch him. Stolander will be very interested and will say to keep a look out. He will report this when they get back home. Later the players will encounter a Dimetrodon hunting for food. You can find stats for dimetrodon in Creature Catalog ( OD&D ) and in Monstrous Compendium Anual Volume 2 ( AD&D 2E ). Later the player will see some Leptictidium, which are rodents. They resemble an overgrown gerbil with a long snout, a very long tail ( half of their body lenght ) and which runs on it's back legs. It's front legs are very small. These measure about 2 feet 6 inches and will flee from the player. They will encounter 5 of them. If the player hunt them, treat as giant rats. Near the end of their watch the players will see again the same Hiakrai Neather warrior flying overhead. Day 4 : During their fourth day the player's will encounter Hyonedon's ( Creature Catalog p.9 ) Hyenodons are large measure about 4 feets, are bulkier than hyenas and have long snouts with long mouths with bigger theets then common day hyenas. 5 Hit dice, 1 attack Bite ( 3d4 ). AC 7. Put 1 Hynedons for each party member and major NPCs ( including Stolander ). And 1 for the other poeple in the player's patrol. Later during the day they will see some big colorful prehistoric birds fly about ( Archaeopteryx ) . This is just to convey to nature of the setting. These are about the size of pigeons and not capable of long period of sustainable flight. During the end of the day the player will encounter 1 Nogai teenager ( normal human ) armed with a wooden spear and bone dagger, dressed in animals skins. His name is Tola-hih. He seems to have been biten on the leg and is dragging. If questioned he will say that he was hunting far from his village and got hurt and his trying to get back. Stolander will beleive he his a spy ( false, he's telling the truth ). Anyway he wants him brought by force to the camp for re-education. Day 5: Run the event described as Conquest of Nogai-Ta on page 46 of WoTI. If the player's head back home with the captives, try to portray them as miserable at being capture. And while Alphatian are not cruel they look down upon these "primitive savages". Some may even insult them and be a little rough with them. Day 6: This day will be spent exercising, teaching Nogai-Ta how to fight and the player will be tought Neathar. Day 7: Neathar Lesson in morning, then the PCs are assigned guard duty patroling Haldemar ( nothing here happens ). Execpt when the player are near to ending their shift they hear about the Theft and Disapearance later the players will be questioned. Day 8-9 : These 2 days the PCs will be on leave. And while they are not allowed to venture more than a few hundred feet from Haldemar, they are free to do what they want. Day 10 : Exercise, Neathar Lessons, then the player will be assigned to patrol along the walls of Haldemar. Day 11 : The players will venture into the jungle where they will meet an Azcan patrol. The patorl consist of 12 Azcan warriors ( originally 14, 2 were killed during a fight with some Hyenodons ). You can use the typical Azcan warrior statistics given in page 33 of the Atlas of the Hollow World. Assume the warriors are all equiped with dark leather armor, medium-sized wooden shields adorned with strecht leather or strecht tiger pelts and wooden spears. 4 also carry a bola. 2 also carry a blowgun and 4d4 needles. 2 also have a backup wooden club to complement his weapons. The Azcans will first address the group in Neathar stating that they are more numerous and are skilled warriors. They will then demand that the players surrender where they will be taken as prisoners. They say they will not be harmed ( false, the Azcans wish to get the player's sacrified at the nearest azcan temple/city. If this does not work they will fight. If things are going badly for them they will flee in the direction opposite to Haldemar. When the player head back to town they will learn it has been attacked by about 100 azcans warriors, but the Alphatian army, combined with all the wizards present, drove the azcans away. Day 12 : The players are sent where they encountered the Azcans yesterday. 2 other patrols are sent to locate the surviving azcans. 100 men from the Alphatian army ( Nogai warriors with 10 alphatian officers mages ) are sent towards Azca to conduct a punitive raid. The players will not find anything. Back in town they will hear stories that many soldiers saw a huge reptile in the forest, what the Neathar call dinosaurs which was as bigger than anything they ever saw. Day 13 : On this day the player serve as guard in Haldemar. There in the center of the town Alphatian officials are "re-educating" newly arrvied Togai Neathar ( 26 ). The Alphatian are rude, disrespectful and treat the Neathar like inferior. They push them really hard during the training. The PCs job ( along with 3 alphatian soldiers ) is to be there as an intimidation to assert the power of the Alphatian officers ( 3 of them ) and also in case the Togai are hostile. The Neatharians are tought how to use Alphatian weapons, and basic rules of conduct. They must all do some physical training. After a weaker man collapse out of fatigue and an officer shout at him, 2 other Togai intervene, the officer calls upon the PCs to discipline them. The rest of the day is spent patroling the town. Day 14 : Attack of the Heldaners event is played out. Later that day The Disaster is also played out. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAA== ------=_NextPart_000_14b1_4f24_4c7b-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Heldanic Activities in HW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "conquering lands and making alliances as fast as they could," is kind of an exaggeration. The HKs had an outpost at Stonehaven, NW of the Makai islands (up until AC 1011 or 12), and also subjugated the Floating Continent of Oostdok (inhabited by gnomes with flying dirigibles) in 978 AC, but I think they have also been liberated. They also attempted to infiltrate Milenia during WotI (AC 1004-6). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dylan" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Heldanic Activities in HW > On page 44 of the "Book Two: The Immortal's Fury" book of the WoTI boxed > set, it is mentioned that, and I quote : < The Heldanic Knights, a group the > Alphatians had paid little attention in the past, were already here, > conquering lands and making alliances as fast as they could. > > > Where are those conquered lands exactly. I tried looking in the PWA and > there is no entry of Heldanic Controlled lands. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:23:34 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, Bob Dylan, you write good music, but you do not yet know the rules of the MML... No file attachments, please. Some of us get them fine, but it wreaks havoc on other peoples mail servers! They may not respond as kindly as I have can you say, "Fireball?"). Aside from the miscue, I like what you came up with. This kind of stuff is good to see on the list. I used this same adventure to start a HW campaign in 1994 and the PCs (those who are left) are still trying to find their way back to the surface. They were assigned to the skyship, but it was shot down by a Heldannic Warbird shortly after leaving Neatharum. They were forced to continue on foot through the Gentle Folk, Icevale, Beastmen, and Antalia, took a longship to Nithia, went north thru Hutaaka and Kogolor, joined the Lighthouse, went to Hiak-Lor, and flew on hiaks across Tanogoro, through Milenia where they fought against the HKs and rebels in Laroun, sailed north from there, but were shipwrecked. A MP ship rescued them, they helped find a lost treasure, then got dropped off in Colima where they trekked back to Azca, where they are now. They had adventures of various sorts in all of these cultures and lands that they passed through. Maybe they should have taken the gnomish burrower! Happy gaming, Dan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyone's individual campaign may vary, of course, but in OD&D it says that the D&D world is based roughly on 15th century Europe without gunpowder and before the invention of the printing press. I think this is in the Companion set but not sure. My campaigns have never had a printing press and I suspect the majority don't. This is one of the reasons why constructing a library costs so much. In the Glantri GAZ, Book of Wonderous Inventions, etc. books for a magic-user's library (which are references, not themselves magical) costs a pretty penny. By default in D&D, books are all handmade. I have my campaign based from that same quote (15th cent., pre-gun powder, pre-press). However, I might allow some tinkering gnomes to have a press, and there probably are some magic items, esp. in Alphatia that could produce books. Either way, the printing press isn't commonplace. The "Accumulation of Knowledge" that we have today is a fairly recent development. The common D&D cititizen would be un-educated, un-informed, and news and communication would be sparse, even with magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:45:20 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Ah, Bob Dylan, you write good music, but you do not yet know the rules of >the MML... > >No file attachments, please. Some of us get them fine, but it wreaks havoc >on other peoples mail servers! They may not respond as kindly as I have > can you say, "Fireball?"). > OOPS ! Sorry, and no my real name is not Bob Dylan, I never give my real names to these kind of services on the web. Im Gilles Leblanc. I like your campaign plans, myself tough, I plan on runnin about only 2 to 4 quests in HW then whisk the PCs back to the KW. I was planning on having the sky-ship shot down also. One of my player is a shamani of Atruaghin, eventually I plan on Atruaghin sending in a dream where if the rest of the group ( not followers of Atruaghin ) will prove their worth to Atruaghin by doing some quest in Azca he will reveal them the location of the Mystical Conveyor featured in the Atruaghin Gazeteers. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:09:56 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I like your campaign plans, myself tough, I plan on runnin about only 2 to 4 > quests in HW then whisk the PCs back to the KW. I was planning on having the > sky-ship shot down also. > > One of my player is a shamani of Atruaghin, eventually I plan on Atruaghin > sending in a dream where if the rest of the group ( not followers of > Atruaghin ) will prove their worth to Atruaghin by doing some quest in Azca > he will reveal them the location of the Mystical Conveyor featured in the > Atruaghin Gazeteers. Yes, that is the same means that my PCs are heading are for, they just don't know it yet! Only one of the original 3 are still there (a hin from Norwold, joined by an Icevale elven cleric, currently captured and up for sacrifice on Atzanteotl's altar, and a New Way Azcan sorceress). The hin and wizardess recently learned of Quauhnahuac from Xochiquetzal, while trying to rescue their friend, but they still need to go to Chitlacan to try and save him, first. I'd say it's been around 50 gaming sessions, so far... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 04:23:41 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Where is Quauhnahuac ? I do not have access to Sons of Azca Gazeteer and it is not mentioned in the Atruaghin Gazeteer. So instead of placing it randomly you could enlighten me to it's actual position ? Also, I don't even have the HW box, I had to ask one of my player ( who has never DMed in Mystara ) to lend it to me. He bought it years ago, and has read it and appreciated it. He's mostly a player tough or a Planescape DM. >Yes, that is the same means that my PCs are heading are for, they just >don't >know it yet! Only one of the original 3 are still there (a hin from >Norwold, joined by an Icevale elven cleric, currently captured and up for >sacrifice on Atzanteotl's altar, and a New Way Azcan sorceress). The hin >and wizardess recently learned of Quauhnahuac from Xochiquetzal, while >trying to rescue their friend, but they still need to go to Chitlacan to >try >and save him, first. I'd say it's been around 50 gaming sessions, so >far... > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:47:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The ruins of Q are 90 miles NE (HW directions) of the old lighthouse near Titlapoca (across the Bay of Tlapac). They were the last HW stronghold of Atruatzin before he was driven to the surface. A devolved tribe lives near the ruins, called the Atruatolco. They claim to be descended from survivors of Atr's last stand, but they are an inbred tribe who shun contact w. outsiders. They might break this taboo on the advice of one of their shamans. They are waiting for Atruatzin to rise up again from Mictlan (the place of the dead, i.e. the Conveyor). I placed Q 3 hexes NE, 2 hexes N of Titlapoca. I drew it in on my HW map, so if you want, I can scan it in, and send you a copy. (Off list, of course!) :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dylan" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos > Where is Quauhnahuac ? I do not have access to Sons of Azca Gazeteer and it > is not mentioned in the Atruaghin Gazeteer. So instead of placing it > randomly you could enlighten me to it's actual position ? > > Also, I don't even have the HW box, I had to ask one of my player ( who has > never DMed in Mystara ) to lend it to me. He bought it years ago, and has > read it and appreciated it. He's mostly a player tough or a Planescape DM. > > > >Yes, that is the same means that my PCs are heading are for, they just > >don't > >know it yet! Only one of the original 3 are still there (a hin from > >Norwold, joined by an Icevale elven cleric, currently captured and up for > >sacrifice on Atzanteotl's altar, and a New Way Azcan sorceress). The hin > >and wizardess recently learned of Quauhnahuac from Xochiquetzal, while > >trying to rescue their friend, but they still need to go to Chitlacan to > >try > >and save him, first. I'd say it's been around 50 gaming sessions, so > >far... > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:01:55 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Titlapoca. I drew it in on my HW map, so if you want, I can scan it in, >and >send you a copy. (Off list, of course!) :-) This would be a god-send. You see my friends maps are litteraly falling apart. Just manipulating them has made them ever worse. It's not my things and I don't want to destroy his stuff. Any part of a scan HW map would be great for me. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:21:28 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Net Almanac Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just liked to mention to the poeple running the Mystara Net Almanac Page, the Alfheim time line of WoTI is not downloadable in either form, doc or txt. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:35:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply back to me with your e-mail address and I'll send it to you tomorrow. deustace@mediaone.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dylan" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos > >Titlapoca. I drew it in on my HW map, so if you want, I can scan it in, > >and > >send you a copy. (Off list, of course!) :-) > > > This would be a god-send. You see my friends maps are litteraly falling > apart. Just manipulating them has made them ever worse. It's not my things > and I don't want to destroy his stuff. Any part of a scan HW map would be > great for me. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:42:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Karameikos map AC1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone created a computerized map of Karameikos for the AC1000 era? My GAZ map is falling apart after years of use. Thanks, Magus Coeruleus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:48:50 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Karameikos map AC1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David S. Leland wrote: > Has anyone created a computerized map of Karameikos for the AC1000 era? My GAZ map is falling apart after years of use. As always, Thibault's site is most helpful: http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/maps/newmaps/karameikos/karameikos.htm http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/maps/maps_by_other/karameikos.gif The first is an interactive, hex-based map, while the second is a CC2 map. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 02:47:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Herve Musseau Subject: Alfheim invasion Comments: cc: Fabrizio Paoli MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Bob Dylan >Just liked to mention to the poeple running the Mystara Net Almanac Page, the Alfheim time line of WoTI is not downloadable in either form, doc or txt. Yes, the word file was never released (I'm not sure it's finished). There is an html version in the Vaults of Pandius, though: http://dnd.starflung.com/invasion.html I think the word version is intended to have fixes, but since it isn't available yet... Brizio, do you intend to release that someday? ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:00:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Karameikos map AC1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes you can have it on mys site i have many versions of it... Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: David S. Leland To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Karameikos map AC1000 > Has anyone created a computerized map of Karameikos for the AC1000 era? My GAZ map is falling apart after years of use. > > Thanks, > Magus Coeruleus > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:57:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have just recently remade the map of the HW using grid cartography... i'll make the map available soon for you to have and print, ok? Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Dylan To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos > >Titlapoca. I drew it in on my HW map, so if you want, I can scan it in, > >and > >send you a copy. (Off list, of course!) :-) > > > This would be a god-send. You see my friends maps are litteraly falling > apart. Just manipulating them has made them ever worse. It's not my things > and I don't want to destroy his stuff. Any part of a scan HW map would be > great for me. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:59:48 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Karameikos map AC1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i also recently made a new one using hex mapper... i'll put it on my site soon too. I just lack the technic to write names on the maps the way "Ironwolf" did on his... (man!! this is killing me!!!) Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: G.P. Agosta To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikos map AC1000 > David S. Leland wrote: > > > Has anyone created a computerized map of Karameikos for the AC1000 era? My GAZ map is falling apart after years of use. > > As always, Thibault's site is most helpful: > http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/maps/newmaps/karameikos/karameikos.ht m > http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/maps/maps_by_other/karameikos.gif > > The first is an interactive, hex-based map, while the second is a CC2 map. > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > agosta@elet.polimi.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) IMC, printing presses are extremely rare, but they do exist (on top of being gnomish devices). You can find them in "developed" nations like Darokin, Glantri, and Thyatis (in the KW). Nonetheless, books are very expensive (my players buy books about local lore and the like, and they regularly shell out 50-150 gp for a hardcover book about such topics as "The Principles of Magic for Students of Intra-Planar Physics", "Lore and Legends of Blackmoor: A Speculative Anthology", and others). The average Joe is too busy trying to stay afloat to care much about reading (so literacy is more the province of the rich, except in cases where some schooling is mandatory (ie: training for certain professions, like bookkeeping), so books are also quite rare (not much of a market for them). Outside of the big cities, though, books (where they exist) are hand-written, and often one-of-a-kind deals. If the cost wasn't enough, books can also be bulky (your backpack only carries so many things, and if you carry that book you'll have less room for rations....), they increase encumbrance, and they are susceptible to damage (get caught in the rain?). One of my players got a leatherworker in Darokin City to customise her backpack (extra pockets, waterproofing, and emergency release straps) so she could carry her extra equipment, but it cost her a pretty penny, I can tell you. Therefore, the printing press on a small scale had provided me with a means of siphoning off a little more of the PCs' treasure. I reasoned (follwing the "feel of nations" discussion, that places like Darokin are not only wealthier and have access to more foreign goods; the calibre of the work that is done is higher - thus, a person can find someone to customise their clothing or armour, or design a new piece of equipment for them, but great skill costs a great amount of money. Anyhow, I've rambled on enough. Just thought I'd share my own experiences with printing presses. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:38:02 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Bob Dylan Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >i have just recently remade the map of the HW using grid cartography... >i'll make the map available soon for you to have and print, ok? > Yes I have access to a printer. Even without one I would find them useful. Just let me know when it's ready. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:42:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010426071712.00cad6f0@cogsci.ucsd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Anyone's individual campaign may vary, of > course, but in OD&D it says that the D&D world is > based roughly on 15th century Europe without > gunpowder and before the invention of the printing > press. I think this is in the Companion set but not > sure. My campaigns have never had a printing press > and I suspect the majority don't. This is one of > the reasons why constructing a library costs so > much. In the Glantri GAZ, Book of Wonderous > Inventions, etc. books for a magic-user's library > (which are references, not themselves magical) costs > a pretty penny. Actually, you are quite misktaken. The mid-15th century was EXACTLY when Johannes Gutenberg had founded the printing press (1450, to be exact). The technology was definitely readily available in the latter parts of the middle ages. I do not understand your assumption of no printing press in Mystara especially with all the books that the Known World possesses and all its "Great Libraries" in Alphatia and Glantri's Great School of Magic, for instance. As for you saying that you "PRESUME" that the Companion Set says that books are handmade.. Well, let me tell you that the Companions' Set Rules are superceded anyways by the RC. Nothing in the RC says anything about books being "handmade." You also speak of "roughly" medieval culture.. Well, let's talk about Darokin which has a more "advanced" Renaissance feel? How would you justify them? Or even the Savage Coast (The Savage Baronies are based on Renaissance Spain/Portugal)? YMMV, but the assumption of a printing press in a fantasy medieval setting is very well-founded, IMHO. > In addition the cost of creating a library is NOT because they had to make them on their own, but rather because it is a MAGIC book. Magic in the D&D world is very hard to do and only the select few are good enough to obtain the components, and have the time, effort,skill and patience to learn the arcane arts. Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:15:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) In-Reply-To: <20010427164207.19319.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 09:42 AM 4/27/01, Ramses Ramirez wrote: >Actually, you are quite misktaken. The mid-15th >century was EXACTLY when Johannes Gutenberg had >founded the printing press (1450, to be exact). Actually, no, I am not mistaken, because I said nothing whatsoever= about the real world. I was just paraphrasing what is said in the rules,= which another person confirmed. The game designers were not suggesting= that 15th C Eurpose had no gunpower or printing presses, but that the D&D= game world is LIKE 15th C Europe but WITHOUT gunpowder and printing press. = I am not arguing real world history in any way shape or form. I'm no= rule-thumping canonist, so I have not only no right but also no desire to= criticize you or anyone for having printing presses. That's why I haven't= done so. But I disagree with the notion that printing presses should be= assumed as a default (i.e. as canon). >The >technology was definitely readily available in the >latter parts of the middle ages. I do not understand >your assumption of no printing press in Mystara >especially with all the books that the Known World >possesses and all its "Great Libraries" in Alphatia >and Glantri's Great School of Magic, for instance. Real history technology is irrelevant here. Now game world magic is= relevant, and perhaps there are magical ways to copy books, or facilitate= their creation. Regardless, you choose how to account for however many= books you have in your campaign, but I stick by my position that printing= presses are not a part of the game world by default or canon. Even if= there were gnomish ones somewhere, there is no evidence that printing= presses are in use in a major way, and some rather clear evidence against= it from the Companion Set. >As >for you saying that you "PRESUME" that the Companion >Set says that books are handmade.. Well, let me tell >you that the Companions' Set Rules are superceded >anyways by the RC. Nothing in the RC says anything >about books being "handmade." I never said that the Companion Rules or any other source specified= handmade books. I merely inferred that if there aren't printing presses,= then books are made manually. Of course they COULD be made through some= sort of magical copying, but without any specification of that, I feel it's= safe to assume handmade by default. If you disagree, that's fine. Okay, now I have to say that I don't understand this superceding= business here--just because the RC doesn't say there are no printing= presses, and the Companion Set does, why does that mean there's a= supercesion? The RC doesn't say there ARE printing presses. In fact, the= RC doesn't say a LOT of things, because they were packing in a lot of rules= into one book. Also, most of the Gazetteers were created before the RC, so= even if the RC did reverse position, it would be very awkward to have all= the countries suddenly have printing presses. No, the RC doesn't say= anything about handmade books, but it doesn't say ANYTHING (to my= recollection) about how books are made, and I think it's a bit suspect for= you to infer that because they didn't choose to include the part about 15th= C Europe no gunpowder no presses that now there suddenly are presses. = Would you also say that now guns and cannons are spread throughout the= world just because the RC didn't specifically say they're still not there? >You also speak of >"roughly" medieval culture.. Well, let's talk about >Darokin which has a more "advanced" Renaissance feel? >How would you justify them? Or even the Savage Coast >(The Savage Baronies are based on Renaissance >Spain/Portugal)? YMMV, but the assumption of a >printing press in a fantasy medieval setting is very >well-founded, IMHO. I think the idea of a printing press in Darokin is a fine idea, and= I would never criticize anyone for having them there. But then again, I= don't have any objection to presses ANYWHERE. >In addition the cost of creating a library is NOT >because they had to make them on their own, but rather >because it is a MAGIC book. Magic in the D&D world is >very hard to do and only the select few are good >enough to obtain the components, and have the time, >effort,skill and patience to learn the arcane arts. Library books are not inherently magical, although some may be. = They are references on magic, not spellbooks or anything. I agree with= your other comments about magic but I see how the pertain to the question= at hand. Please note that I'm not saying printing presses are a bad idea. Basically,= you wrote this to someone: >Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I >bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. I thought you were making the assumption that Mystara, by default, has= printing presses in widespread use. I countered that not only is there no= evidence for that, but counterevidence in the form of the statement in the= Companion Rules about no gunpowder and no printing presses. Do what you= like with your campaign, by all means, but I just had to correct what I= consider an incorrect statement about the default/canon status of printing= presses in Mystara. Magus Coeruleus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:22:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff Gander wrote: > IMC, printing presses are extremely rare, but they do exist (on top of > being gnomish devices). You can find them in "developed" nations like > Darokin, Glantri, and Thyatis (in the KW). Nonetheless, books are very > expensive (my players buy books about local lore and the like, and they > regularly shell out 50-150 gp for a hardcover book about such topics as > "The Principles of Magic for Students of Intra-Planar Physics", "Lore and > Legends of Blackmoor: A Speculative Anthology", and others). The average > Joe is too busy trying to stay afloat to care much about reading (so > literacy is more the province of the rich, except in cases where some > schooling is mandatory (ie: training for certain professions, like > bookkeeping), so books are also quite rare (not much of a market for them). > Outside of the big cities, though, books (where they exist) are > hand-written, and often one-of-a-kind deals. Hmm, I would agree that printing presses are very rare, if they exist at all, which is unlikely. But did the Joshuan's Almanac mention how it was mass produced for the Known World? If any book was made by a printing press, it would be that one. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:20:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth Ramhog wrote: >Could anybody tell me where the Heldannic Knights were first >mentioned? Voyage of the Princess Ark series, IIRC. Before that, the Heldann Freeholds were really that - a collection of independent clan-holdings, loosely based on Icelandic culture. >I have a vague recollection (back when I owned all this stuff the first time) that the Knights were originally nothing more >than a name and was surprised at the direction Bruce Heard took them. >I was also disappointed by that because I had intended to take the in >a COMPLETELY different direction making them Heldannic "paladins" >fighting against Thyatian oppression. Well, in the Princess Ark series, the Heldannic Knights served the same role against Haldemar as the Klingons did against Capt. Kirk. Even their warbirds looked like Klingon ships. The alteration of their atittudes and role was during a series of posts to the old Mystara Message Board, in which Bruce was creating some online material following discussions there. But.... Who's to say you can't still do what you want to the Heldannic Knights? You want them to be villains? Make them so! Have fun, it's your campaign, after all. Just because someone posted something in a newsgroup, that doesn't mean it's accepted truth. I don't mean to sound flippant or disrespectful to anyone, but as far as newsgroups and the like are concerned, we're all on an equal footing. We are all fans of Mystara, contributing materials to improve it in our own eyes, and sharing what we've done with others as a sort of labour of love. >Has this sort of thing ever happened to anyone else- you want to >develope some aspect of Mystara only to have the rug pulled out from >under you by "official" material? If so, how did you deal with it? Well, personally, I tend to disregard (for my own use) whatever doesn't agree with my own campaign world, whether that material is TSR-made or not. If I want to develop a nation or person a certain way, and the official books say otherwise, I just go my own way, because that's what I enjoy, and I know that by doing what I prefer, it will match my campaign world better. Witness the recent flame war over whether Stefan Karameikos was evil (let's not re-enact it, though 8-P) - some people decided that an evil Stefan was what would suit their campaign world better, and they went their own way. Others chose to have him remain good, and that suited their campaigns just as well. It's all about choices, but the most important choice of all is what you want your campaign world to be like. To take a less controversial example, many people on this list (myself included) will not ever be using the Wrath of the Immortals scenario as it is provided in the boxed set. Some won't be using it period, while others, like me, have decided to cut out certain parts of the story (like Alphatia sinking). Do I necessarily hate the setting? No, in fact I find some parts of it very well done, it's just that the sweeping changes that are introduced aren't something I want to put into my campaign setting at this time. All this to say that having the rug pulled out from under you can be frustrating, but just remember that as a DM, you have the power to weave your own rugs - ones which can't be pulled by anyone. Just my $0.02 Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Heldanic Activities in HW On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:07:26 -0400, Dan Eustace wrote: >"conquering lands and making alliances as fast as they could," is kind of an >exaggeration. The HKs had an outpost at Stonehaven, NW of the Makai islands >(up until AC 1011 or 12), and also subjugated the Floating Continent of >Oostdok (inhabited by gnomes with flying dirigibles) in 978 AC, but I think >they have also been liberated. They also attempted to infiltrate Milenia >during WotI (AC 1004-6). > Yes, the HKs were driven from both Oostdok and Stonehaven by the Alphatians relocated to the HW in AC 1010 (this is in PWA1), so the HKs have no conquered lands in HW after that (though they could have infiltrated some places and co-existed with some people, as they do in some of the MA events). - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:37:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:23:34 -0400, Dan Eustace wrote: (snip) > >Aside from the miscue, I like what you came up with. This kind of stuff is >good to see on the list. I agree, nice work. I only wish I'd had it when I ran that adventure years ago :) > I used this same adventure to start a HW campaign >in 1994 and the PCs (those who are left) are still trying to find their way >back to the surface. >They were assigned to the skyship, but it was shot down by a Heldannic >Warbird shortly after leaving Neatharum. They were forced to continue on >foot through the Gentle Folk, Icevale, Beastmen, and Antalia, took a >longship to Nithia, went north thru Hutaaka and Kogolor, joined the >Lighthouse, went to Hiak-Lor, and flew on hiaks across Tanogoro, through >Milenia where they fought against the HKs and rebels in Laroun, sailed north >from there, but were shipwrecked. A MP ship rescued them, they helped find >a lost treasure, then got dropped off in Colima where they trekked back to >Azca, where they are now. They had adventures of various sorts in all of >these cultures and lands that they passed through. Maybe they should have >taken the gnomish burrower! LOL. They chose the same route IMC, but I didn't plan a HW campaign (I wanted them back to play out the events of WOTI), so they faced much less trouble in traveling in the HW. That doesn't mean they escaped easily, though - far from it! They joined the crew of the remaining Alphatian skyship commanded by an Alphatian skyship skipper who is fairly important IMC (yes, it was the Stalker). The idea was for him to calculate an exit through the magical deadzone. The players, apparently believing that I would never let anything bad happen for (or to) my old favorite, thought themselves secure and accepted the plan as such (not a good idea IMC). To be fair, I did roll the dice for 'the Stalker' to get it right. Naturally, I can always claim now that I would have accepted it if he had rolled well enough, but luckily for me, I didn't have to decide on that because the roll was pretty lousy and the skyship smashed into the cold regions of the anti-magical darklands! It was pretty severe (everyone took 10d6 points of damage and rolled saves vs. three critical hits (Combat and Tactics system, severity of 1d20!). By some miracle, most saves were made and those missed turned out fairly light. However, everyone but the PCs, the Stalker, and three Alphatian warrior-types were killed in the crash, and the group was stranded. Note how lucky they were - if one had broken the leg, for example, there would have been no way to heal it with magic in the anti- magic zone! So they began their long journey through the cold, arctic regions on foot! They ran across several creatures (I don't remember them all, but one was a remorhaz). Apart from hostile creatures, I tried to play on the hostility of the region, too. I thought the cold would be a terrible monster, so I was pretty disappointed to find that D&D has a complete lack of rules regarding effects of extreme cold and so. I used the rules in the AD&D Wilderness Survival Guide, but they were disappointingly mild, and I ended up improvising most of the cold effects. Eventually the group ran into a young white dragon, though I ruled that it's breath weapon was too magical to work in the anti-magic zone (still a tough opponent, though!). After that they made it out of the anti-magic zone, though, and the Stalker could Teleport them back to Alphatia, where Eriadna debriefed them (as stated in the WOTI adventure) and then prompted had a Geas placed on all of them so they wouldn't reveal the existence of the HW! (Not all Alphatians are nice). Always the "diplomat", Eriadna tried to convince them that this was for their own good, because enemies of Alphatia, such as Glantri or Thyatis, might force them to reveal things and then keep them captive (or just kill them) to prevent them from revealing these secrets to anyone else! To my surprise the players were so spooked that they accepted the explanation, and they all volunteered to have a Geas placed upon them. In fact, some were concerned whether it would take effect if they mentioned the HW by accident. - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:56:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth In-Reply-To: <200104272320.TAA12015@freenet10.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >>Could anybody tell me where the Heldannic Knights were first >>mentioned? > >Voyage of the Princess Ark series, IIRC. Before that, the Heldann >Freeholds were really that - a collection of independent clan-holdings, >loosely based on Icelandic culture. I could *swear* that the Heldannic Knights were mentioned before the Princess Ark series *somewhere*- in a module or something. I believe it was in the first PWA that the Freeholds were renamed the Heldannic Territories. > > >I was also disappointed by that because I had intended to take the in >>a COMPLETELY different direction making them Heldannic "paladins" >>fighting against Thyatian oppression. I think I meant Alphatian, not Thyatian above. >Well, in the Princess Ark series, the Heldannic Knights served the same >role against Haldemar as the Klingons did against Capt. Kirk. Even their >warbirds looked like Klingon ships. The alteration of their atittudes and >role was during a series of posts to the old Mystara Message Board, in >which Bruce was creating some online material following discussions there. Actually, that would be Romulan Birds of Prey, not Klingon Warbirds. The whole notion of Romulans and Klingons swapping tech came out of an episode in which newly built Klingon ships were made *after* it was declared they (Klingons) would no longer appear on the show. They used the Klingon ships in the next Romulan episode because they couldn't just throw them out, now could they? And, iirc, that ep was re-written a smidge to reflect that. The first Trek film drove that concept home. Okay, enough of that! :) >But.... > >Who's to say you can't still do what you want to the Heldannic Knights? >You want them to be villains? Make them so! Have fun, it's your Now, why would Heldannic Knights being anti-Thyatian freedom-fighters make them villains? ;) Of course I'm aware that I can do whatever I wish with the material, it's just that, in this case, people seemed to go apeshit with the concept of Hattian/Nazi/HK's! Seems like every freakin' PWA was lousy with 'em! The material covering them went so far, it just kinda took the wind out of my sails. Worst part is- I can't quite recall what it was I wanted to do with them in the first place. I do remember that they were to be actual *Heldanners* and not just transplanted Hattians (why jingoistic Hattians would call themselves "Heldannic" knights always stuck in my craw). > >Has this sort of thing ever happened to anyone else- you want to >>develope some aspect of Mystara only to have the rug pulled out from > >under you by "official" material? If so, how did you deal with it? > > >To take a less controversial example, many people on this list (myself >included) will not ever be using the Wrath of the Immortals scenario as it >is provided in the boxed set. As one who feels that WotI (while interesting) and the PWA's that followed were the last 10 nails in Mystara's coffin, I don't believe I'll ever be using it either. It always seemed to me like Aaron Allston simply wanted to leave his final, indelible mark on the world he helped create (writing GAZ1)- even if it meant f-ing up some of his own work with the sinking of Alphatia, etc (since he wrote DotE as well). Ya gotta wonder if he had a bone to pick with Steve "Alfheim" Perrin. heh heh VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:56:39 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:22:07 -0700, Dave Keyser wrote: >Geoff Gander wrote: > >> IMC, printing presses are extremely rare, but they do exist (on top of >> being gnomish devices). You can find them in "developed" nations like >> Darokin, Glantri, and Thyatis (in the KW). Nonetheless, books are very >> expensive (my players buy books about local lore and the like, and they >> regularly shell out 50-150 gp for a hardcover book about such topics as >> "The Principles of Magic for Students of Intra-Planar Physics", "Lore and >> Legends of Blackmoor: A Speculative Anthology", and others). The average >> Joe is too busy trying to stay afloat to care much about reading (so >> literacy is more the province of the rich, except in cases where some >> schooling is mandatory (ie: training for certain professions, like >> bookkeeping), so books are also quite rare (not much of a market for them). >> Outside of the big cities, though, books (where they exist) are >> hand-written, and often one-of-a-kind deals. > >Hmm, I would agree that printing presses are very rare, if they exist at all, >which is unlikely. But did the Joshuan's Almanac mention how it was mass >produced for the Known World? If any book was made by a printing press, >it would be that one. > :) I was going to argue against printing presses for Mystara, but they are okay as long as they don't become common. Besides, Joshuan's Almanac shows a pretty clear picture of Joshuan working on, yes, a printing press in the beginning of the book, so I guess that answers that question :) A couple of other points on this: Wizards don't use printed books in most versions of D&D. I'm not sure about 3e, but 2e suggests that pages are added as new spells become available for the mage to copy (I allow mages to prepare all the pages they want in advance IMC), but it is sort of implied that spellbooks are tomes were pages are loosely inserted into. Besides, Spells & Magic has a non-weapon proficiency called Bookbinding, so I assume spellbooks are personal. If you go with the 'Magescript' idea described in the Mystara DM Survival Kit (which is the only thing I actually liked in those horrible books!), then a printing press won't help a wizard because each page much be written by the mage in his own 'magescript' (magescript is a form of short-hand or personalized alphabet. Each wizard has his own personal magescript, so while you can see the letters and symbols when opening the book of a mage, you won't understand because it was written in a personal code, which can be 'broken' only by Read Magic). Also, even if printing presses are available, that still doesn't mean that they will be wide-spread. Up to a very late time, books were considered strange, scary things in most European countries, so even if you could mass- produce them, you would do so to a small market. In medieval times, for example, monks reading books like we do today in a library were considered strange and alien because the general populace had no idea what they were doing - to them all these people just sat around a large room looking intently and for extended periods of time at the same object, sometimes looking sad, worried, intrigued, sometimes laughing without apparent reason! Sometimes they would suddenly close the 'object' and bread free of the 'trance' they were in, then get another 'object' and then study that in the same manner, much like a bee-hive, as I believe it was described once. So while a printing press might have an audience, it wouldn't be the common populace for a long time. - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:14:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magus, You must have has an ESP spell running, since you wrote my reply for me! We are thinking along the same lines on this one. The quote on 15th century, pre-press, no gun powder is actually from the Expert book, though. But, Lancer does have a case, as there is an item in the Book of Wondrous Inventions (I thought there was something, and I finally located it!). Here is a brief summary, the item description is 3 full pages long! Darak's Thaumaturigal Printing Press It uses magic (a modified floating disc, Bigby's clenched fist (to pound the press plates), and permanence) and gnomish machinery to print. Manual labor, such as ogres, zombies, or golems, is needed to crank the mechanism. The history section describes how the arch-mage, Moxwul Darak made the 1st press 120 years ago. His design was improved upon by a gnome engineer, named Mardok Torgul, and they both became wealthy working as partners. A thief stole the plans and sold them off, and eventually a book on how to make the press was printed and circulated. Presses have since been constructed in most cities and major towns. (IMO, this might apply to Alphatia, and certainly not Mystara as a whole, but it's likely that Darokin, Thyatis, and similar Renaissance cultures could also have a few). It is a bulky, and cumbersome device, 20' x 12', which weighs 8 tons. It costs 54,000 gp and takes 63 days for a MU working with a mechanician to build one (from the plans). It also requires some rare components. It can print 1500 pages of poster quality, or 500 of book quality per day. Any more than that and there is a chance that it will overheat and cause a fire, noxious smoke cloud, or explosion. The printing plates, ink, and paper are addition costs (metal plates @ 20 gp ea., 1 gallon of ink @ 2 gp, and 500 sheets paaper @ 3 gp). The description does warn DMs to take "great care introducing the printing press into their campaigns." It goes into a lengthy discussion on the effects of the press on the game and society in general, such as propaganda, freedom of the press, censorship, rival presses, etc. This magical/techno hybrid is a better fit for Mystara than a RW press. The fact that this item description exists is evidence that the RW printing press is not considered standard to D&D, but that it is a viable option for some campaigns. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David S. Leland" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) At 09:42 AM 4/27/01, Ramses Ramirez wrote: >Actually, you are quite misktaken. The mid-15th >century was EXACTLY when Johannes Gutenberg had >founded the printing press (1450, to be exact). Actually, no, I am not mistaken, because I said nothing whatsoever about the real world. I was just paraphrasing what is said in the rules, which another person confirmed. The game designers were not suggesting that 15th C Eurpose had no gunpower or printing presses, but that the D&D game world is LIKE 15th C Europe but WITHOUT gunpowder and printing press. I am not arguing real world history in any way shape or form. I'm no rule-thumping canonist, so I have not only no right but also no desire to criticize you or anyone for having printing presses. That's why I haven't done so. But I disagree with the notion that printing presses should be assumed as a default (i.e. as canon). >The >technology was definitely readily available in the >latter parts of the middle ages. I do not understand >your assumption of no printing press in Mystara >especially with all the books that the Known World >possesses and all its "Great Libraries" in Alphatia >and Glantri's Great School of Magic, for instance. Real history technology is irrelevant here. Now game world magic is relevant, and perhaps there are magical ways to copy books, or facilitate their creation. Regardless, you choose how to account for however many books you have in your campaign, but I stick by my position that printing presses are not a part of the game world by default or canon. Even if there were gnomish ones somewhere, there is no evidence that printing presses are in use in a major way, and some rather clear evidence against it from the Companion Set. >As >for you saying that you "PRESUME" that the Companion >Set says that books are handmade.. Well, let me tell >you that the Companions' Set Rules are superceded >anyways by the RC. Nothing in the RC says anything >about books being "handmade." I never said that the Companion Rules or any other source specified handmade books. I merely inferred that if there aren't printing presses, then books are made manually. Of course they COULD be made through some sort of magical copying, but without any specification of that, I feel it's safe to assume handmade by default. If you disagree, that's fine. Okay, now I have to say that I don't understand this superceding business here--just because the RC doesn't say there are no printing presses, and the Companion Set does, why does that mean there's a supercesion? The RC doesn't say there ARE printing presses. In fact, the RC doesn't say a LOT of things, because they were packing in a lot of rules into one book. Also, most of the Gazetteers were created before the RC, so even if the RC did reverse position, it would be very awkward to have all the countries suddenly have printing presses. No, the RC doesn't say anything about handmade books, but it doesn't say ANYTHING (to my recollection) about how books are made, and I think it's a bit suspect for you to infer that because they didn't choose to include the part about 15th C Europe no gunpowder no presses that now there suddenly are presses. Would you also say that now guns and cannons are spread throughout the world just because the RC didn't specifically say they're still not there? >You also speak of >"roughly" medieval culture.. Well, let's talk about >Darokin which has a more "advanced" Renaissance feel? >How would you justify them? Or even the Savage Coast >(The Savage Baronies are based on Renaissance >Spain/Portugal)? YMMV, but the assumption of a >printing press in a fantasy medieval setting is very >well-founded, IMHO. I think the idea of a printing press in Darokin is a fine idea, and I would never criticize anyone for having them there. But then again, I don't have any objection to presses ANYWHERE. >In addition the cost of creating a library is NOT >because they had to make them on their own, but rather >because it is a MAGIC book. Magic in the D&D world is >very hard to do and only the select few are good >enough to obtain the components, and have the time, >effort,skill and patience to learn the arcane arts. Library books are not inherently magical, although some may be. They are references on magic, not spellbooks or anything. I agree with your other comments about magic but I see how the pertain to the question at hand. Please note that I'm not saying printing presses are a bad idea. Basically, you wrote this to someone: >Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I >bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. I thought you were making the assumption that Mystara, by default, has printing presses in widespread use. I countered that not only is there no evidence for that, but counterevidence in the form of the statement in the Companion Rules about no gunpowder and no printing presses. Do what you like with your campaign, by all means, but I just had to correct what I consider an incorrect statement about the default/canon status of printing presses in Mystara. Magus Coeruleus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Fleshing out Mystery in Aegos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snipped] So they began their long journey through the cold, arctic > regions on foot! They ran across several creatures (I don't remember them > all, but one was a remorhaz). Apart from hostile creatures, I tried to play > on the hostility of the region, too. I thought the cold would be a terrible > monster, so I was pretty disappointed to find that D&D has a complete lack > of rules regarding effects of extreme cold and so. I used the rules in the > AD&D Wilderness Survival Guide, but they were disappointingly mild, and I > ended up improvising most of the cold effects. I think I may add and expand on some cold weather rules FMC (actually mainly from Dragon mag) when I do the Frosthaven and Icevale entries for this year's MA. It probably would be helpful. RW places like Antarctica can reach -80 to -100 F. If the darklands are that cold, few if any would survive! > Eventually the group ran into a young white dragon, though I ruled that > it's breath weapon was too magical to work in the anti-magic zone (still a > tough opponent, though!). After that they made it out of the anti-magic > zone, though, and the Stalker could Teleport them back to Alphatia, where > Eriadna debriefed them (as stated in the WOTI adventure) and then prompted > had a Geas placed on all of them so they wouldn't reveal the existence of > the HW! (Not all Alphatians are nice). Always the "diplomat", Eriadna tried > to convince them that this was for their own good, because enemies of > Alphatia, such as Glantri or Thyatis, might force them to reveal things and > then keep them captive (or just kill them) to prevent them from revealing > these secrets to anyone else! To my surprise the players were so spooked > that they accepted the explanation, and they all volunteered to have a Geas > placed upon them. In fact, some were concerned whether it would take effect > if they mentioned the HW by accident. Dude, the geas is an awesome idea! I just may use that approach when and if they ever make it back. Maybe Eriadna would even place them under guard (house arrest) since there would be HW natives with the sole survivor of the original group. They are in what would be AC 1007 in the canon timeline. I am going to file this message away for future reference. I'll let you know how it goes. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 03:10:24 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Help with the Heldannic Freeholds and Denegoth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] > As one who feels that WotI (while interesting) and the PWA's that > followed were the last 10 nails in Mystara's coffin, I don't believe > I'll ever be using it either. It always seemed to me like Aaron > Allston simply wanted to leave his final, indelible mark on the world > he helped create (writing GAZ1)- even if it meant f-ing up some of > his own work with the sinking of Alphatia, etc (since he wrote DotE > as well). I think they intended for Alphatia to be sunk all along, ala ATLANTIS. The Mystaran continents are based on the RW model, and Alphatia is right where the legendary Atlantis was supposed to be. They even call it Atlantis in CM1 & CM2. You have the stereotypical Atlantis remnant in Aquas Seashield, a Maelstrom (Bermuda Triangle), and lost artifacts under the ocean. > Ya gotta wonder if he had a bone to pick with Steve "Alfheim" Perrin. heh heh I didn't see this one coming, though... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:51:53 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Immortals & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron E Nowack wrote: <> How absurd! I mean, stating that direct intervention is wrong, and then intervening directly to correct the things! The Old Ones committed the same sin of the Immortals then! For this reason, even going against canon, I'd tend to think the manifestation that appeared during Rad's and Ixion's fight was not an Old One, but rather the physical manifestation of the Nucleus of the Spheres, which drew Rad inside it to absorb it, protect it from Ixion's wrath and maybe give him another chance to understand the true meaning of his power and his origins. Either this, or maybe it was Gareth himself, whatever Gareth may be (most probably an Immortal who returned after his trip through the Barrier and attained a higher state..) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:43:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Printing Press (was To Agathokles about Poll) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010427095055.00c35b60@cogsci.ucsd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Please note that I'm not saying printing presses are > a bad idea. Basically, you wrote this to someone: > > >Does your Mystara campaign have a printing press? I > >bet it does unless you use papyrus for spellbooks. > > I thought you were making the assumption that > Mystara, by default, has printing presses in > widespread use. I countered that not only is there > no evidence for that, but counterevidence in the > form of the statement in the Companion Rules about > no gunpowder and no printing presses. Do what you > like with your campaign, by all means, but I just > had to correct what I consider an incorrect > statement about the default/canon status of printing > presses in Mystara. Yes..I was making that assumption. At the time I had the misconception that having a printing press was the default for Mystara and did not think much of it.. It just seemed like "common sense" to me.. This is why I was surprised when some people responded saying that they do NOT use printing presses. I actually, in my campaigns rather subconsiciously "assumed" there would be a printing press without really doing too much about it since thus far it has not been a factor with or without anyways. Now, that people have brought it up, I mght have to put some more thought into how I do printing presses. I do think that they exist but, it might actually be cooler to say that some nations have them and some don't. For those that don't for instance,people would be informed by local town criers..etc Regardless of whether your campaign is LIKE 15th century Europe with or without the printing press, You DID state that the printing press in the real world had still not been invented in the 15th century.. This is the only reason why I brought my "Gutenburg" comment.. It is just that your statement really jumped out of the screen at me :). Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:58:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: To Agathokles about Poll In-Reply-To: <3AE7C567.4090209@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > They have to find > something in common to > use as a base for the Church's doctrine. > What I'm saying is that you can't take the pantheon > leader's portfolio > and apply it as a whole to the Church, since there > are other Immortals > involved. > When an Immortal gets in a pantheon, the first thing > he wants is to have > the church's doctrine to be at least favorable to > some aspects of his > portfolio. Then, he becomes patron of the most > favorable aspects of the > Church's doctrine. > The CoK cares about honesty in life. Since this is a > general value for > the church, all its Immortals are supposed to > support it. Simply, > Asterius would care about honesty in trade, Valerias > about honesty in > relationships, etc. > Hmmmm....After thinking about this email for the past few days I noticed that your comments here have some real merit. I see how Asterius' portfolio would only be a a piece of the pie which is the entire pantheon. I see that the emphasis is not on trade, rather on "honesty in trade" for Asterius.. And then Valerias would take care of that trait for relationships (like you stated) and son on.. Summing the main beliefs of each Immortal for the CoK, one could see that many of the church's tenets are satisfied. Good. > > He just needs to use a different name. Think > Loki/Bozdogan, they aren't > widely known to be the same. Yes... Yes.. In addition, even if your campaign had good record histories,( i.e. printing press) a wise Immortal would STILL be able to assume another identity without anyone finding out that..."Hey! That new god is that thief patron, Asterius." You had some really good comments here. I was just set before into thinking that the patron leader should symbolize the main values of the church... Seeing the pantheon leader's portfolio for that church as being in conjunction with the portfolios of the other patrons, really put things into perspective..Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.. Hmmmmmmmm... That gives me some ideas.. :) Lancer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.