========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:04:09 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Pink Plate Mail +5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed You know, I think in my case the pink plate mail would be a great way to make the game unique, but I don't think it would deter players from using it! In fact, it's more likely to change the culture of the world where when people see something pink, they think power. I don't know if that's what you were trying to get at or not, but I think that it takes having players that care ALOT more about panache than numbers. I think alot of people are somewhere in between. They wouldn't use a pink plate +2, but make it a +5, and they'd just deal with looking stupid. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:14:33 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: D&D 4th edition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Anyone want to take a guess how long 3e is going to last before they make 4e? Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:22:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelo Bertolli wrote: > > Anyone want to take a guess how long 3e is going to last before they make > 4e? well... based on a conversation with a Hasbro person, not that long... D&D is selling very well but there are some modifications to make to create more "sellability". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:28:52 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Raise Dead Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, I've known DM's to throw out the Raise Dead spell completely just for the very reason that every player pretty much knew that they would never die. In fact, it got to the point where there players didn't care about dying, they only cared about losing their items (and thus dying). I think 2e solved this with the constitution issue, in essence giving a character a number of "lives." As for clerics casting Raise Dead on just anyone, in my game I have considered that to be a religious issue. Most lawful clerics in my game would consider just raising anyone to be chaotic. When you think about it, you could make an argument either way. On one hand you have life as a good thing. But on the other hand it seems to me that most "good" things are only considered good when they are done in the right way. And maybe just raising anyone who dies isn't right, because after all, maybe they died for a reason. In my game clerics will only raise someone if they have a mission of good to accomplish or (because they are human too) for a hefty price. I had another idea. That is the cleric has a chance of losing a point of strength (or pick your attribute) every time Raise Dead is used. Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:42:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Alignments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed One thing I have never understood was why D&D kept the lawful/chaotic good/evil alignment combo. I didn't think alignments were that important to begin with. In fact, I've considered taking out alignments completely in my game. The only reason why I didn't is because having lawful/neutral/chaotic alignments allowed for some items to be specially aligned with some characters. I'm under the impression that some people like the structure it gives to the game... like certain people should behave in a consistent way. But to me it's just a complication. Any good player is going to play in a consistent way, and as for the monsters, I like having the monster's attitude in their description much more useful and rewarding than looking at the alignment category. I'm not saying people should use alignments, I just wonder why 3e which seemed to do a good job modernizing everything else, decided to keep the alignment system the way it is. (Or am I not correct in assuming that?) Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:48:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Angelo Bertolli wrote: > You know, I think in my case the pink plate mail would be a great way = to > make the game unique, but I don't think it would deter players from = using > it! In fact, it's more likely to change the culture of the world = where when > people see something pink, they think power. =20 Unice says: "Of course people think power, when they see something pink. = I know I do." > I don't know if that's what > you were trying to get at or not, but I think that it takes having = players > that care ALOT more about panache than numbers. =20 Unice says: "Panache is everything. We all have our reasons for doing = what we do. You try asking your fellows exactly how their armor and = weapons look, and you might get them to admit some preferences, which = you could capitalize on, when you deal with them. Look at me: Do you = think I would settle for a shield+1 if it weren't pink (and also fit my = refined sense of fashion, naturally)? And by the way, my plate mail's = +4, not +5." > I think alot of people are > somewhere in between. They wouldn't use a pink plate +2, but make it = a +5, > and they'd just deal with looking stupid. Unice says: "Is that some kind of insult? I'd be careful insulting a = lady, who also happens to be a 27th level Fighter, when she chooses to = express her personal taste in clothing and armor. And you're not only = insulting me, but also an Immortal, who happens to think that pink looks = great!" Jacob says: "Hey, this is a role-playing game, guys, play your roles!" = ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:13:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Colin Wilson Subject: Re: Raise Dead In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'll admit it, I'm a bit of a git where this is concerned. I've thrown out any form of raising apart from a direct wish. It's a fairly low magic campaign anyway, so it works out OK. To make clerics a little more powerful in response, they all have access to some of the deeply nasty reversals of the raising spells. The only place where raising is effective is Alphatia because they store up wishes just for this sort of event. Equally, raising doesn't work it the person doesn't want to be raised. On the plus side it makes both me and my players a little more wary of things which are WAY too powerful. Cheers, Col. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:49:26 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: 0e, 1e, 2e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed One thing I have to say about 3e is that it has made it a bit more difficult to use 3e adventures in OD&D. I remember I used to use 2e adventures from dungeon magazine all the time, and I didn't even need to know the rules. I could tell enough about the monster stats and what items were called that I knew what they did. And I use the 1e monster manuals as addendums to the RC monsters section. I just throw out things like psionics and modify here and there. Usually when I can't guess what something does, I throw it out. The players never know the difference anyway. That's one advantage to being a DM. Nobody is going to know if that zombie you just killed actually had 3HD. But I'm not sure with 3e. The only rules I really know about 3e are the character-side rules, not the monster-side rules. I don't imagine it would be very easy for me to pick up a 3e adventure and use it for my OD&D game. Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:55:34 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Virus warning us a hoax In-Reply-To: ; from mgelman@CITY-NET.COM on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:54:59PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:54:59PM -0500, Mischa Gelman wrote: > Um, that virus warning from Mr. O'Brien was a net hoax. For more > information, please check http://www.Vmyths.com/hoax.cfm?id=257&page=3 > for details. When notifying mailing lists of viruses, please, please, > check to make sure that they're real first, so as to avoid causing mass > hysteria for no reason. Actually, please refrain from posting at all. Get good anti-virus software, update it often, and don't run outlook. If you don't do any of those things, you will be infected sooner or later. Glenn (Who gets far too much of this at work) -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "You're not our only customer you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | know" "But we're one of the few http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | with tactical nuclear weapons" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Raising & RE: [MYSTARA] Ways to get rid of too manymagic items MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > people are looked as undead. Also, Hel is not especially keen on > letting people leave her domain. That rings far more true than you realize in my campaign - I wrote a BDP adventure based on the party escaping from Hel's home Niflheim! Very, very long (my longest yet) and descriptive, and lots of fun, too! The party had quite a hard time getting themselves out (as it should be)! > It is possible that egalitarian churches may refuse to use Raise Dead > entirely, since it wouldn't be fair to have someone raised and someone > not. Well (and if I understand you correctly), short of the Immortal removing the spell from the spell list, I don't think this would be too likely to work in the long run. Eventually some clerics will say "You know, I really, really liked Person X and it'd be great if he could come back, and I've got that Raise Dead spell sitting off in the corner rusting...." :) But if what you meant was for the Immortal to yank it from the book, that seems reasonable (although probably more than a little disappointing to the player of such a cleric!). > I have people pay 20.000 gp per Raise Dead spell (this is pretty in Yes, this is the other side of the 10000gp/level coin that I've been wrestling with - i.e., why shouldn't it just be equivalent to the cost (marked up for time spent, profit, and unforeseen expenses/material costs) of literally creating a scroll with the spell Raise Dead on it, using the standard magic item creation rules in the Rules Cyclopedia? I figure that cost could be on the order of 10000 or 20000 (I'd have to pull out the Cyclopedia to get the exact base cost, and then mark it up in some somewhat arbitrary manner, but I'd ballpark it in my head around that price). Well anyway, my current argument goes that you aren't just spending for the cost of the spell, which in most cases might actually be free to the cleric, but are essentially "tithe"-ing for your life back, and those with more should be required to give more so that everyone gives a comparatively equal amount. And the game mechanic for determining how much to give that I currently use is the level or hit die. But someone else basically suggested something closer to literally tithe-ing, basing the amount to pay on a percentage of the character's (or party's - but I might prefer character's) total wealth. I suppose that's fine too, but I still think there should at least be a fairly high minimum, like say 10000gp or 20000gp. > Second, most Immortals will think it very rude to take the servant of > an Immortal away from the resting place of such servants. The only > ... > situations, and likely stronger. If one is promised paradise in the > hereafter, then it is snatched away, they will hardly be expected to > be happy about it. I totally buy all this, and it really should have been formalized in the rules! Unfortunately, you can read the spell description and you have no reason to think there's potential religious or alignment problems whatsoever with casting Raise Dead everyday. I think this is both an excellent example of what I mean, as well as a very interesting contrast: the spell Animate Dead comes complete with a disclaimer that almost literally reads "Animating the dead is a chaotic act", but there is no mention whatsoever about the potentially related problems associated with raising the dead. Maybe they figured if Jesus could do it for seemingly random people like Lazarus, then it must be ok by God. But anyway, this gives the distinct impression, and more importantly a flavor for the entire game, that raising the dead frequently in this game is an ok thing. And thus by restricting it you're actually going against the flavor as written in the rules. But I think it's really NOT an ok thing for a campaign world, and it sounds like most of the people chiming in on the list agree. So here's the gist of where I'm going: when I try to enforce to the players my view that cheap raising is not permitted, I come across like the bad guy because nowhere in the rules does it say you can't raise people (subject to the limitations in the original description of Raise Dead) as frequently as you cast Cure Light Wounds on them. Maybe I should just grin and bear it, and remind them there's the optional rule in the back of the Rules Cyclopedia that says I can get rid of all Raise Dead magic entirely ... but I think that's a far worse solution - the game wouldn't be the same without Raise Dead. The possibility of raising, even if it's not assured, can encourage heroic deeds, as well as correct deaths of chance or otherwise unfair deaths, and in general it grants another avenue of hope to the players that at the end of the day everything will be ok. I suppose alternatively I should hope I have players who understand my opinion, or at the very least can accept my authority as DM, and I would say I do have such players, but I still feel like a jerk sometimes for raping them of all their hard-earned gold and items to raise someone back. So I guess in the end I'm just resentful of the OD&D rules for never fixing this - or arguably, for outright blundering this. > IMC, I combine hefty fees for resurrection (usually based on a > percentage of the party's wealth, which will only increase as their > wealth grows over time), with quests. Currently, two party members I mentioned above your suggestion of basically forcing the party to tithe, and I figure it's roughly equivalent to my 10000gp/level method. However, I like your idea of adding in quests! I.e., making money only one ingredient in what is needed. I mean, usually I just charge them the gold because it's quick to deal with between adventures, but this does inspire me to perhaps tack on other prices to the raising spell, preferably other things that can be done between adventures. I'm tempted to do simple things like you have to convert religion, or wear a special religious brand or tattoo, or require a service be done for the church (not necessarily a full-blown quest, but perhaps the party has to use the money to see to it a new wing in the church is built). Or just something that's fairly easy to do between adventures, but harder than just erasing gold off the character sheet. Anyway, I'm feeling inspired, so thanks! :) > I had another idea. That is the cleric has a chance of losing a point > of strength (or pick your attribute) every time Raise Dead is used. You have no idea how much I LOVE this idea! :) I would probably never implement it - my players would kill me, but what's more I think Raise Dead would be a little too UNcommon for my tastes then, and what's most is it's a huge Reality Shift to push into the existing campaign. Actually, this reminds me of another point that can also reduce the amount of raising that happens, and what's more has also come up in my campaign a few times before. That is, since everybody knows raising is possible, you'd think the practice of people obliterating bodies could actually become much more prevalent in Mystara than it is in the real world. I'm sure the party that finished X5 will kick themselves 100 times in the head for not burning the Master and setting his ashes to the wind when they get to X10 and find the Master back at the head of another enormous army! Even though he was raised by an Immortal (by I believe Loki) who probably could have brought the Master back regardless of what the party could have done, the party probably will never know this and still be mad at themselves for it. And I'm sure you could think of 100 more cases like this one. Perhaps that's something us DM's should consider more; that is, taking characters out permanently just as it might occur to players to do this to their enemies. And anyway, getting back to the original topic, that's definitely a way to permanently get rid of some magic items - get rid of the character who owns them! :) hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:05:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jacob Skytte Subject: New Monster: The Munchkin (silly) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in a silly mood today, so here goes. Fair warning: Unless you're in = the mood for silliness, do avoid... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk --- Munchkin Stage I* Armor Class: 0 Hit Dice: 1+2**** Move: 120' (40') Sprinting: 480' (160') Attacks: 1 weapon or 1 bite Damage: By weapon or 1d3 No. Appearing 1d6 (1d6) Save As: H8 Morale: 10 Treasure Type: (Vx3), G Intelligence: 8 Alignment: Chaotic XP Value: 31 Monster Type: Humanoid (Rare), in some dimensions (Common). A Stage I Munchkin is a small, bald gnome-like humanoid, who will try to = steal, cheat, and use any trick to obtain treasure and magical items. = Munchkins are presumably reincarnations of people or monsters, who = exhibited these traits in their former lives. Munchkins cannot = reproduce, sexually or otherwise. Though Stage I Munchkins may move = normally, they are usually seen sprinting around in a frenzy, both to = confuse their opponents, and to get to the nearest treasure. When = encountering multiple Stage I Munchkins, they will usually call = themselves a party, though each of them is only concerned by its own = health, and will constantly be looking for a chance to cheat and rob its = companions. The Stage I Munchkin has a low intelligence, and is difficult to engage = in conversation. It can see invisible within 60', has thief skills as a = level 20 thief, and can backstab with +4 to hit, inflicting twice normal = damage. Unless the Stage I Munchkin is instantly destroyed or silenced, = it will always mutter "No fair, you didn't give me a chance...", when = killed, which will teleport it to one of three sanctuaries, where it = will regenerate completely within 1 turn. While a Stage I Munchkin may use any magical armor, it will only benefit = from it, if it would reduce its Armor Class below 0. It may use any = weapon in combat, but if cornered will often bite and tear at its = opponents in frustration. It can only be hit by magical weapons. Once a Stage I Munchkin has accumulated a set amount of treasure and = magic it will evolve into the dreaded Stage II Munchkin. This will = usually take less than a game year, since any longer would be unfair. Terrain: Any. Munchkin Stage II Armor Class: -5 Hit Dice: 20********** (etc.) Move: 120' (40') Attacks: 4 x 2 weapons Damage: 4 x By weapon +3/4 x By weapon +3 No. Appearing: 1 (1) Save As: F36 Morale: 12 Treasure Type: (Vx15) Ax3, Gx5, Hx3, Nx2, Ox2 Intelligence: 5 Alignment: Chaotic XP Value: 92375 Monster Type: Humanoid (Very Rare), in some dimensions (Awfully Common). The Stage II Munchkin is the evolved form of a Stage I Munchkin. At = Stage II the Munchkin becomes a large, bald human-looking (why human? = They get more options) barbarian, at least 7 feet tall. It has by now = collected immense amounts of treasure, but still seeks more. It is = purely motivated by the lust for more treasure and powerful magic. Stage = II Munchkins will never be seen in parties, since they seem to attack = each other without pause, lusting for the other's items. Even less intelligent than the Stage I Munchkin, a Stage II has no need = for elaborate plans or boring conversation, it can settle any encounter = by killing first and looting later. It can see invisible 120', detect = magic at will, detect curses and their exact nature at will, and at any = time has 5 wishes. It cannot be killed (if reduced to 0 hp or instantly = destroyed, it will use a wish to avoid its fate and return to full hp. = The wish is immediately replenished). It also cannot be held, charmed, = or contained in any way. There are only two ways to deal with it. One is = to banish it to an Outer Plane; it may not cross planar boundaries = unless aided by a magic item or an Immortal. The other is to get two = Stage II Munchkins together, since a Stage II Munchkin may use a wish = (which is immediately replensihed) to permanently kill another Stage II. = It would be safest to leave the area, while the victorious Munchkin = loots its rival. A Stage II Munchkin may (and will) use any armor, but will only benefit = from it, if its Armor Class is reduced below -5. It uses two weapons in = combat, one in each hand, and has 4 attacks per round (may be hasted for = 8 attacks per round) with each weapon, and does +3 additional damage = when it hits. It is always a Grand Master with any weapon it uses. = Sometimes it uses a shield, in which case it prefers shield weapons. It = may also use any magical item regardless of class restrictions, and will = recharge items that run out of charges (using a wish, which is = immediately replenished). Some Stage II Munchkins may be clerics or magic-users of 36th level of = spell use, and a dreaded few are Mystics of 16th level. They all use the = same statistics as the regular Stage II, but has all additional = abilities from their class. Terrain: Any. Rumors abound of a Stage III Munchkin. This would in all likelihood be = an Immortal creature of Full Hierarch status or an Old One. Only one = such Munchkin can presumably exist at any time, and is known as "the = patron of Munchkins" or "Munchkin DM". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:21:02 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Ways to get rid of too many magic items MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > happening. I also used the drain to balance out the magic missile > spell. I previously limited it at 9 missiles, but even this was a bit > much w/o a save, for a 1st level spell. It dropped to 7, and now to 5 > (+1 missile every 5 levels up to L20). The MU in the party is upset, Oh on the contrary, I've always enjoyed the truly rich irony that a 36th level Mage's Magic Missile does effectively more damage on average (67.5 points, but with no save!) as his Lightning Bolt or Fireball (70 points, and that's if the save is FAILED - most people who a 36th level Mage would face will probably make their save!)! I say if a player actually figures that out, more power to him! :) hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:49:11 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Ways to get rid of too many magic items Greenlantern said: I think this is a good thread, too. Is someone collecting these pearls of wisdom, perhaps putting them in a helpful little file? Just wondering. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:55:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. I respect Giulio tremendously for both his > impressive fan material on the net and his positive > presence here on the list. This is meant to be > respectful disagreement, not a personal attack. Thanks a lot, Mr. Corliss. Although I am in general suspicious of wealthy Darokinian merchants, I respect your ideas and am not in any way offended by your mail. 8-) BTW, I will express some harsh judgement in this mail, but I am NOT attacking anyone myself. When I will refer to "stupidity" regarding the 3E game, I will NEVER have the intention of attacking those who like 3E. I say it again: some ideas of 3E are good, and people like David and Ethan have expressed what these are. But I have several issues with the political aspects of 3E and of TSR's last moves, thus the violence of this rant. Please bear with me! > If people want to play that way, they have every right > to play that way... it doesn't mean I have to. I also > have the right to exclude them from my game. > I agree completely with you and with many others that say "Hey, 3E is modular, 3E allows you to drop things you don't like but allows for more options if you like". BUT my point was not that. The point I was trying to make is: People who want to play powergames and that suffer of a munchkin predisposition WILL BE MORE ATTRACTED than those who prefer a "mature" and "roleplaying oriented" way of playing. I know that many don't give a *(insert word of your choice)* about how others play, or what the target audience is... but I do. So that's my main concern about 3E. Surely I cannot be upset by the rules change, because I agree also with others who have said "An RPG depends only of how the DM is and how his players are, the rules don't matter." I just say that TSR, with 3E, is targeting a much "lower" audience than 2E for the D&D Rpg, and this is, in my humble opinion, bad. Moreover, as I have said previously, there is the D20 system who allows for modularity and "universality" even better than 3E. I am not accusing anyone of being "stupid" because they play 3E, but you all will recognize that Mystara has little room for dwarven mages, for psionicism (except Savage Coast, for some), and so on. And I cannot see why something that was a problem with 2E (elven clerics, e.g.) can be solved by 3E that allows to play "elven psionicist/monks/sorcerers". The fact that 3E rules explicitly say "you can avoid using some rules" can be even worse than 2E's "if something is missing you'll need to fix it", because in 3E people is ENCOURAGED to play weirdos and be powergamers. In 2E the feeling was mostly Mystaran. Gnomes are a part of the Mystaran setting. The only problem was "elven clerics", mainly. And the various "subclasses" that appeared in the Gaz's could be used by changing them into kits in a way similar to that of prestige classes, thus solving even this issue. So the liking or disliking of 2E and 3E really comes only to two problems: 1) poor conversion of Mystara in 2E 2) preference for a rule mechanism And I say: 2E and 3E are in many respects equal. If you have issues, it's not because "one game is better than the other". And it's difficult if not impossible to recognize which of the two is "most suited" or "least suited" to Mystara. So I tell you again: my issue is not the rules. It's the fact that new players will grow up to become munchkin, and this because of the 3E format. So I dislike 3E just for this. It's like disliking MTV. You know there are other ways to do music, but only if someone else shows you the way. If you think music is just MTV, you're missing alot. Not because that music is all bad, but because you are not allowed to see other faces of music. You may say "Who cares? I still listen to X and Y." But what will happen in the future? People who play that type of music will die out. And so will your music. So is 3E in regard to powerplay, and unlimited classes and races. "Who cares?", says Mr. Corliss. I DO. Will we one day be all 55-years old guys, on the MML? A last pessimistic note to the Mystara 3E Team: I admire your will to convert Mystara, but be sure that 99% of those who will use it will be people who already knew of Mystara. Which of the new players will give a * about us, when we say "hey, here there are no dwarven sorcerers and you don't see 12 Elminsters for each nation?" Because the only place where 3E powerplaying will not subtract nothing from the setting, and where any weirdo has a place, is Forgotten Realms, the King Setting of All Munchkins and the Stereotype of All Stereotype Fantasy Realms. Young generations, move ahead! With the 3E Rulebook, cast yourselves in the realms of Products of Your Unimagination! Come and play the Tarrasque Cleric Monk!!!! We will give you the rules for doing so in the next FR supplement!!! Sorry for the rant. I say it again: I like the D20 idea of modernizing the game and of giving an universal system, and it's not important if I don't agree with some game mechanism. But 3E is another thing. It's a fake: presented like universal game for serious gamers, but hinting to all videogame players that would otherwise shake their head: "Oooof, I must play the same old boring fighter. Why not a fighter who throws meteor swarms, then?" Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:09:03 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: New Monster: The Munchkin (silly) > >I'm in a silly mood today, so here goes. Fair warning: Unless you're in the mood for silliness, do avoid... > >Jacob Skytte poated two munchkins.... *rofl*! Well, that made my morning.... This reminds me of a Palladium campaign I was playing in some time ago - one of the other players (a true munchkin in every sense of the word, probably stage II, since he was about 21 at the time) demanded loudly that another character hand over his weapons, so that he could "kill things twice as fast". As I recall, he also convinced the GM (his friend) that the gas mask he was wearing constituted armour for the head region, so he shouldn't take as much damage in that region. Oh well. Needless to say, he's not playing with us anymore. :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Alignments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Angelo Bertolli [mailto:abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM] IMC I have always been very unconcerned about alignments. I see them, I have pc's and npc's jot them down, and Paladins must be lawful or LG (depending on how the player wants to write it down). When I play a character with an alignment, I have always played by the rules, but when ever I played a Paladin, I always played by the philosophy behind the rules. Some of my more memorable characters were paladins, one was a faris from Ylari, one a crusader from Greyhawk. Both these characters had issues with their own identity in observing their alignment, I role-played this out and had many deep philosophical ramblings on why my LG paladin would kill a beggar one day, then heal an orc assassin on another. Did I play my alignment? My DM at first was ready to banish my character and change my alignment, but through role-play I was able to defend my paladin's tenants and strictures. My crusader even started his own branch from the norm, and gained many followers; this worked very well since I bent every rule from the 'norm' for paladins, but I never bent a stricture or tenant that my character established. I also borrowed a Brother's Grimm fairytale to set all the standards for my paladin. The story is called Iron John. It's a fairytale of how a boy becomes a man by rescuing a beastly man (Iron John) from the forbidden woods. I turned the whole story line from my god, Heironeous, into Iron John. Blasphemy from the more 'norm' type paladins and priests from the churches and orders, and even a few wars when we both in reality worshipped the very same being. But if you have an open-minded DM, and know how to role-play, every rule has to be bent, no matter what system or rules you use (they can't make a rule for everything, including balance, they can only guide you). BTW I will have to post my Iron John paladin rules sometime... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: marten finlator Subject: Re: Raise Dead In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings all! With regard to the issue of Raise Dead spells, may I point out that they must be granted by an Immortal Patron, who ought to look dimly upon attempts by PCs, Munchkin or otherwise, to parlay this spell into quasi-Immortality. Have your local deity nip this one in the bud by refusing to grant the spell more than once per year, or whatever is suitable, and your problems are over! As to wishes, by God, whichever DM is granting them at such a pace that PCs can save them up and use them for Raise Dead spells has only himself or herself to blame. Even if the campaign is being run in Alphatia! Marten Finlator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:56:11 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Short answer: Most Mystaran characters were designed under the rules >of the D&D RC and its predecessors, so obviously they are a good fit >to those rules in most cases. AD&D 2E, while also a rather "traditional" >rule set, has slightly different assumptions built in -- and those >differences >introduce problems if you force Mystara to conform to them, as TSR >did in their conversion. Even the Forgotten Realms supplements had >new features added to cover things in that setting that did not conform >to the AD&D 2E rules. But Mystara? TSR shoehorned them into the >basic PHB and DMG rules. > I have played and DMed under both OD&D and AD&D 2E. I own Mystara products for both OD&D and 2E. It would be interesting if you could mention specific exemples of things that were shoehorned so I might look them up myself and understand your point. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:00:10 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Ethan pretty well answered the question for me. TSR seriously botched >the AD&D 2E conversion, and I assume that anyone who plays AD&D >2E in the Mystara setting is using that botched conversion. At least 3E >is modular enough in nature that a 3E DM can use any sort of house >rules he likes for various races and regions. For example, in the case >of Dwarves he could say anything from "Dwarves may be of any class" >to "Dwarves may not be arcane spellcasters" to "Dwarves must be >Fighters". Because the rules were designed to cover the most general >case, no special rules are needed to handle any more restrictive cases >that you elect to impose. > >In AD&D 2E, on the other hand, if you decided that Dwarves or other >races could be members of classes not available to them in the available >rules, you would have to work out their level limits, thieving skill >adjustments, wizard school specializations, and several other factors. >And of course each time you introduce such a modification you risk >throwing game balance (or what there is of it) way off. > I allow dwarves to be fighthers, thieves or clerics as per PHB. Level limits and etc. are all covered in there ( which I don't use ), as well as thieving skills, etc. In my opinion dwarves of Rockhome should be those classes, well their in the PHB, while on the other hand 3E allows more options but I find the new class dwarves can have don't fit. It's like this for all races/classes. Also because something is written in the PHB or DMG you don't have to enforece it 100% or some WoTC police is gonna arrest you. You take out or remove things you don't like. So far I haven't encountered any problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message is a reply for everyone... In all my years of gaming, as a DM and player, I have used the Raise Dead only once. I never restricted its use, or said it would cost to much, or used a deity to interfere in the process. I guess it is just that I have been lucky, or that my players know that when they die, it is time to move on. Making death of a character as a finalality gives the game a very good perspective. Raise Dead has always been an option, but when we role-played our characters, we role-played death as final and they lived a long and productive life and they are in a better place than here. On the other hand we have lost quite a few characters from stupid things, and they deserve their stupid deaths. 'He really was an excellent pickpocket, too bad he could not find a single trap!' The Mystara campaign I run now even has a hall of shame, one of the players will be putting it on a website for all to see how his gnome ranger died by cold water piranha, or how a barbarian died from a necklace of strangulation 'too bad we don't have remove curse, do you want a warriors death?' barbarian: 'gasp... spit...', 'okay, I take off his head!'. The best one yet is when a thief found the secret compartment inside a chimney, and while still standing there, read a cursed scroll of turn to stone. Too bad he never told anyone where or what he was doing that night... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:04:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Open ended stats. Do you really need to tell me you have often been in the difficult situation where you had a player with an attribute more than 25 ? If so just improvise them. >Open cosmology. Actually 3E supplies gods and faiths with PHB not 2E. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:11:10 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >That is the first example of where the conversion of Mystara to AD&D >2E went astray. When the authors of the AD&D material for Glantri >and PWA III converted Kol, they were faced with the problem that >Kol (a high level fighter/low level mage in OD&D RC terms) was an >"illegal" character in AD&D 2E. So what did they do? The author of >PWA III made him a witch doctor (basically a priest with minor mage >ability) and G:KoM made him a Shadow Elf Cleric/Mage. It would >have been far better had they endorsed the option for advancing >beyond level limits that they later endorsed for the Forgotten Realms >and then said that kobolds could become wizards with a level limit of X. > He actually I own pretty much all OD&D modules, while I admit for this point, some NPCs were "botched" as have been said, I simply use their stats for OD&D which I convert, which is pretty easy to do. I haven't this written anywhere, it's too easy. >I think that the main point was that in WotI Mystara had its own cosmology, >which many fans of Mystara prefer over the Planescape/Spelljammer setup. >Furthermore, its concept of "dimensions" gives us an easy way to account >for alternate cosmologies -- I just figures that Mystara was in one >dimension >and that the Planescape/Spelljammer/Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms were in >another. > Yes, I don't know why some poeple assumed that because SpellJammer or PlaneScape exist you have to use them in 2E. What will happen when the 3E Manual of the Planes ( sechuduled for release ) will come out ? What if It don't fit with some 3E DMs ideas of Mystara cosmology ? Will they be forced to use it ? Certainly not ! Same thing for PlaneScape. It's not because a product is on the market you have to use it, much less buy it. >One problem is that Mystaran Immortals are organized by Sphere, not >alignment -- and many Mystaran Immortals have greatly different >alignments from their AD&D counterparts (for example, contrast the >LE AD&D Kurtulmak with the Chaotic yet non-Evil Shining One of >Gaz 10 and WotI). Still, it is an easy matter to ignore such things as >the assignment of Mystaran Immortals to Planescape planes. > IMC I keep it simple, Mystaran Immortals are assigned spheres, what's contradictory with 2E rules ? Particurlarly if you keep to plain PHB and DMG rules ? I don't see 3E "domains" as being more conductive to this. I actually use a list of speciality priest for 2E I found on the net to handle priest or I simply give them appropriate sphere and say clerics of X immortal must be of X, Y or Z alignment. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:46:00 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMC raising dead is acceptable but I use the rule from 2E that you lose 1 point of CON. My players have never abused this spell. This is of course saying that only one or two die and can be returned, if the whole party is killed then the point is kind of moot. Multizar the Mage ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:05:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Colin Wilson Subject: Re: Raise Dead In-Reply-To: <20010601133502.99256.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > As to wishes, by God, whichever DM is granting them at > such a pace that PCs can save them up and use them for > Raise Dead spells has only himself or herself to > blame. Ah ha. I never said I gave them to PCs. For them, death is pretty much final unless they've done a REALLY big favour for everyone on the wizards council. The only reason to have the alphatian wishes thing was to give alphatia a bit of a magical edge and make it a bit different from the rest of the world. It's pretty much the only place with effective life lengthening spells IMC too. Cheers, Col. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:07:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Praise for the Ways to . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BoBoII: <> i am flattered. yeah...it always seemed best to divert the PCs's attentions elsewhere anytime things became unbalanced. you gotta be careful though to keep from being percieved as the tyrant. it is difficult as the DM must seem to be neutral while manipulating the PCs to his will. muhaha!!! unfortunately....the Master shall continue his monolpoly of your services for my campaign is no more. it never passed the Gaz era. the old gaming group just went our seperate ways. coincidently, you and myself did participate in a common campaign...sort of. rememeber Kaviyd's Glantri PBeM? i was Brannart. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:08:40 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/1/2001 9:11:54 AM Central Daylight Time, bleakcabal@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Yes, I don't know why some poeple assumed that because SpellJammer or > PlaneScape exist you have to use them in 2E. What will happen when the 3E > Manual of the Planes ( sechuduled for release ) will come out ? What if It > don't fit with some 3E DMs ideas of Mystara cosmology ? Will they be forced > to use it ? Certainly not ! Same thing for PlaneScape. It's not because a > product is on the market you have to use it, much less buy it. Well, they've pretty much stated that they're departing from the cheese wheel of the planes model of cosmology and just giving some ideas on how to run differing situations and I guess some common planes that are needful for the core 3E rulesets (like the ethereal and astral). The point is, 3E is more open ended in the basic assumption of many things than 2E was. Who cares if I have to house rule a game to death to make it? Not me, but its nice when a new player coming into a game doesn't have to labor through a booklet in addition to the PHB to get acquainted to my game. My 2E game had its own little 72 page book at one point, because I'd changed things so much. About 10 of those pages are unneeded for 3E because the house rules are moot now. 3E is easier to learn apparently, the player I have thats never played any D& D system before is adjusting much quicker than some of my long time players are that keep asking questions about how mechanics work in 3E that really should be obvious (its a d20 game, when in doubt roll a d20). 3E is a lot more work as a DM IMO, making monsters is almost always like making a bunch of NPCs and the CR system means that if I'm lazy I can figure the Xp ahead of time and how badly I'm going to hurt the party without looking at anything but that little magic number. No more consulting my chart of prefigured monster XPs from 2E, and the assumptions that 3E DOES make are usually plain to see or expressed in ink so I can give out XP according to how fast I want the party to advance without a lot of math for a bunch of different classes' XP charts. What I don't understand is how people who labor under their dog-eared copies of old rulesets and whatnot get defensive and defiant in the face of change. True, no one's making anyone buy anything or play any way they please. Of course, the only place you'll find any older supplements or rules in used book shops so you'll probably end up having to convert anything new that looks interesting or useful which means you'll have to become familiar with the new rules to some extent. I agree, if you're running out of you're own notes it doesn't make much difference- but a lot of people out there have to introduce new players all the time. Its not so easy to float three or four newbies through a campaign every year when they can't buy the same rulebooks that you're using or they're continually making wrong assumptions on rules because they familiar with another set. Maybe your home campaign is OD&D or 2E no matter what, but I bet in a couple of years you'll have a hard time trying to find a game to play in with new people that doesn't make you have to learn the new ruleset. At best, 3E is open ended and doesn't try to tell me how to play my game but tells me how the game was designed to be played. At worst, 3E is a bit more wargamey and powergaming focussed for my tastes. Its certainly a cleaner core mechanic than any previous editions, or any other game I've come across before. Will it be as fun as the previous editions? Probably, games are fun because the social aspects of the game for me. Will it make me change the way I do things? Not anymore than any other change to the game would, although the battlemat and miniatures are a weird addition. Sorry for the rant, but I just don't get how people can say "You don't have to use 'X'" and simultaneously seem to bitch about the people who do. Its not because a product is on the market, but it is because other products are off the market I suppose I should say. I need to sleep at night for once, JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:13:07 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Praise for the Ways to . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hafnir: <<> well thought out and very creative. I especially like the idea of them > becoming cash strapped as a incentive. (I just went through this > myself where the party had to sell a long-held and valued magic item > so they could afford to have a Raise Dead spell cast on one of them.) > Aw, you just beat me posting about (basically) the same thing! Looks like we're thinking on the same wavelength.=A0 :)>> all this agreement is beginning to get a tad scary. see what happens...i tak= e=20 a month or two of to play Asheron's Call and the MML goes and gets civil on=20 me. :-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: The Famous Rant of Aaron Nowack: In Defense of 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:55:41 +0200 Caroletti writes: > BTW, I will express some harsh judgement in this mail, but I am NOT > attacking anyone myself. When I will refer to "stupidity" regarding > the > 3E game, I will NEVER have the intention of attacking those who > like > 3E. I say it again: some ideas of 3E are good, and people like > David > and Ethan have expressed what these are. But I have several issues > with > the political aspects of 3E and of TSR's last moves, thus the > violence of > > this rant. Please bear with me! Of course. All below is also, of course, not intended as any insult to those who don't like 3E. > People who want to play powergames and that suffer of a munchkin > predisposition WILL BE MORE ATTRACTED than those who prefer > a "mature" and "roleplaying oriented" way of playing. Um... IMO, 3E is one of the most conducive to roleplaying as opposed to roll-play version of D&D ever. It has simple basic rules for things that were always troubling previous editions, like a fighter that wants to learn a few rogue skills later than life. 3E character creation allows a much vaster range of character concepts than any other edition. That, IMO, is a good thing. > Moreover, as I have said previously, there is the D20 system who > allows > for > modularity and "universality" even better than 3E. I think you have a problem here... D20 is the 3E rules sysytem. There is no rules differance between the two. Every complaint you have against 3E goes for d20 too. > I am not accusing anyone of being "stupid" because they play 3E, but > you > all > will recognize that Mystara has little room for dwarven mages, for > psionicism (except Savage Coast, for some), and so on. I agree... and the whole setup of 3E is to make it easy to prohibit this, but if you want a world where dwarves are ancient sorcerers, elves are the premeir psioniscists, hobgoblins are the masters of wizardry, and humans are a band of pathetic nobody's, it won't leave you in the dark. The basic premise of 3E is OPTIONS, not RESTRICTIONS. Want to play a wizard in armor? Sure, but your spells have a chance of failing. Want to play a paladin/sorcerer? Sure! (more about that below)... >And I cannot > see > why > something that was a problem with 2E (elven clerics, e.g.) can be > solved > by > 3E that allows to play "elven psionicist/monks/sorcerers". Easy. By a complete fundamental rewriting of the rules system, the races, and the classes. In previous editions of D&D certain races and classes were much more powerful than others and required level-class limits/higher XP tables. 3E fixes this game flaw. A level of cleric = a level of wizard = a level of fighter, etc. An elf is as powerful as a human is as powerful as a halfling, etc. (Indeed, I think humans are now one of the most attractive races to play at low levels) A elven psioniscist 1/monk 1/ sorcerer 1 is about equal in power to a gnomish fighter 3. The elf has a wide range of fairly weak abilities, while the gnome's picked up two bonus feats and has a +3 BAB. Also, unless the elf levels up evenly he's going to quickly be facing some hefty XP penalties... At higher levels the elf starts to fall a bit behind, actually. A fighter 12 is probably a bit more useful than a psioniscist 4/monk 4/ sorcerer 4. In other words, there is no extreme game imbalance in 3e! The "munchkin's delight" elven paladin/bard is not imbalanced with a straight human fighter. >In 2E > the > feeling was mostly Mystaran. Excuse me while I laugh heartily... Elven mage/thieves? Halfling clerics? Dual-classing? Schools of magic and Spheres of influence? Druids and paladins before 9th level? Psionics? Merfolk with one tail? Good and evil alignments? Wild magic? A totally different planar structure? No weapon mastery? The only rules system that without modifications is "mostly Mystaran" is OD&D. IMNSHO, those required modifications are vastly easier in 3E then in 2E, where any change risked throwing what little game balance there was out the window. > So the liking or disliking of 2E and 3E really comes only to two > problems: > > So I tell you again: my issue is not the rules. It's the fact that > new > players will > grow up to become munchkin, and this because of the 3E format. So I > dislike 3E just for this. How so? How does playing in an enviornment where, without breaking the rules, it is nearly impossible to create a broken character foster munchkins? There is no rules bias for munchkinism! The one and only determinate for the "munchkin"-ness of a campain is the players and the DM. If the DM abides by the treasure ammount suggestions in the 3E DMG, he will find that in 3E players will be more flexible and powerful than equivalent level characters from previous editions, and that they will be gaining levels faster. Why is this a problem? It is not munchkinism for a 3rd level character to be more powerful than a 3rd level character from a different game! I have not read every post on this thread, but I have yet to see any good argument as to why higher power levels are equal to munchkinism, which is the main thing you have to prove. By your argument, all 20th level campaigns are munchkin, because they're vastly more powerful than a 1st level campaign. And an Immortals campaign? Munchkin city!!! > It's like disliking MTV. You know there are other ways to do music, > but > only > if someone else shows you the way. If you think music is just MTV, > you're missing alot. Umm... no. The analogy is flawed. 3E is like a music video station that decides to play a wide range of music, while until recently it only played certain types. > So is 3E in regard to powerplay, Powerplay? That's a style of play that has _nothing_ to do with a rules system. >Will we one day be all 55-years old guys, on > the > MML? Probably, unless Mystara is re-published in some fashion. >Which of the new players will give a * > about us, when we say "hey, here there are no dwarven sorcerers and you > don't see 12 Elminsters for each nation?" First off: though I haven't seen it yet myself, in FR3E apparently Elminster is no longer an over-powered character, instead merely being a high-level one. And need I mention the Thousand Mages of Alphatia, or that island off the coast of Thyatis with it's hundred maximum level wizards and a huge waiting list to get on it? Mystara isn't a low-powered world by any stretch of the definition. What other world makes it not only possible but accpeted for a campaign to end by the PCs becoming "gods"? As for Dwarven sorcerers? The Mystara 3E project team will be making no such restrictions. What we will state is something along these lines: "To date, no Mystaran dwarf has displayed any talent for arcane magic, and there is reason to believe that they are actually incapable of such. It is recomended that DMs think carefully before introducing arcane magic using dwarves to the setting." That way, if a player want to play... I don't know... a dwarf who was gven sorcerous powers by an insane Glantrian wizard who was experimenting to determine the cause of Dwarven magic resistance, not only will he be able to (with DM permission, of course), but he will be balanced with the other characters! > Sorry for the rant. I say it again: I like the D20 idea of > modernizing > the game and > of giving an universal system, and it's not important if I don't > agree > with > some game mechanism. But 3E is another thing. See above. Everything you are complaining about in 3E is part of the D20 rules system. >"Oooof, I must play the same old boring fighter. Why not a fighter who >throws meteor swarms, then?" First off, under 3E rules, no fighter can cast meteor swarm. If a fighter invests many levels into wizard (forcing him to forfeit a swarm of fighter bonus feat) and has a high enough intelligence (likely forcing him to have a much weaker strength that a single-class fighter),you won't get a fighter casting meteor swarms... you get a wizard with some combat training- in no real way different than the "Military Wizard" Kit from 2E, only actually balanced with the other characters. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:13:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelo Bertolli wrote: > You know, I think in my case the pink plate mail would be a great way to > make the game unique, but I don't think it would deter players from using > it! In fact, it's more likely to change the culture of the world where when > people see something pink, they think power. I don't know if that's what > you were trying to get at or not, but I think that it takes having players > that care ALOT more about panache than numbers. I think alot of people are > somewhere in between. They wouldn't use a pink plate +2, but make it a +5, > and they'd just deal with looking stupid. Pink - mhh Why not the most weapons and armor in the groups that is play were with glitter of silver, green, blue, black and some other metallics collor. but pink - i think that will be great - who knowns a hero that wilds a great Pink sword? i will do it - hihi maybe i am self the charakter that will find a magic weapon that is pink. our gamemaster let us chose the appereance of the items that we find - if we want. so that it fit to our charakters - maybe the same magic that change the size of boots. pink - hihi yeah that its (mess my charakter do not use armor and wilds a staff - mhh next time [he is not a mage]) IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:24:52 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelo Bertolli wrote: > Well, I've known DM's to throw out the Raise Dead spell completely just for > the very reason that every player pretty much knew that they would never > die. In fact, it got to the point where there players didn't care about > dying, they only cared about losing their items (and thus dying). I think > 2e solved this with the constitution issue, in essence giving a character a > number of "lives." > > As for clerics casting Raise Dead on just anyone, in my game I have > considered that to be a religious issue. Most lawful clerics in my game > would consider just raising anyone to be chaotic. When you think about it, > you could make an argument either way. On one hand you have life as a good > thing. But on the other hand it seems to me that most "good" things are > only considered good when they are done in the right way. And maybe just > raising anyone who dies isn't right, because after all, maybe they died for > a reason. In my game clerics will only raise someone if they have a mission > of good to accomplish or (because they are human too) for a hefty price. > > I had another idea. That is the cleric has a chance of losing a point of > strength (or pick your attribute) every time Raise Dead is used. i my camp the charakters have to be known (in a good way) so the church thinks they will do a lot of good thonks again. and it will be expensive, that do not have to be magical items, coins or so. if they are rich - then they can build a temple or somthing for the church. but in other way i will plan an adventure with high dead change. (that is why the church does not handle it self at the time). in my camp there is not so much magical items - so i do not take it form them. but for me as gm it is a hard thing to say NO if a charakter - that is in the game since 2 years - if he want to be raised. i will do it if i like the charakter . i think so. so i do lost a member of my world. but the dead will come over us all. hihi IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:36:15 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Raising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IIRC there was an article in Dragon Mag about spicing up the Raise Dead situation. though my memory is blurred by the passage of time and the combined mind numbing attributes of prime time television programing, this is what i recall. make raisings expensive. it takes alot of time and effort by the clerical following to do the task. this has already been discussed so i digress on adding to it or restating any of it. make the formerly departed owe the clerics a boon (plus the cash). have him and his buds do some task. great way to hook. use other means besides the clean and cut Raise Dead spell. ressurection and reincarnation can make an interesting return to the land of the living. of coarse validating the reason for this use of an alternate spell is difficult. perhaps the initial raising failed and the clerics had to use other options. perhaps the body was getting a bit gamey. toss in some delays to add to the point. the immortal may not exactly be happy at the thought of raising this individual. the spell may fizzle or be "altered" to produce some other spell such as reincarnation. the DM has to have some defintie just cause to do this...i would suggest looking back through campaign logs to build a case. this divine retribution can be permanent or be conditional upon the completion of some immortal related task. the departed may not neccessarily be raised by friendly spellcasters. their remains may have been captured by their slayers. the slayers raise the individual to torture or to become a slave. a particularly arrogant or powerful adversary may raise or reincarnate the individual and appoint conditions for reparations....another boon. this one is one of my own and was actually used in my defunct campaign. the DM could get a bit harsher and actually have a fallen party member raised as a sentient undead (vamp, nossy, or lich). the boon could be placed upon his head. or the spellcaster could just be mean and use him as a pawn. or he could set the new undead out onto the world on its own. it cannot return to its old way of life and would be spurned by its former fellows. this is drastic. i would suggest this as extreme punishment. i would also suggest waiting on initiating this plot by allowing the PCs to attempt a rescue. of coarse there is nothing to say that the spellcaster's forces won't handily defeat them :-) seriously...i would wait until the PCs have pretty much realized that retrieval was impossible. afterall the PC is essentially a NPC after becoming undead. you could try using the undead PC rules in RL rules but that usually does not last. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:48:38 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Ways to get rid of too many magic items MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacob: < wrote: > > *try to emphasize style. sure that plate +5 is mega magic...but it looks like > crap. offer some background info to support why the armor looks as it does. > ex. NPC that made it or had it made...liked pink. > Have you been reading M5: Talons of Night lately? Unice seemed to like her items...pink. ;)>> actually i have that module. at the time of writing the original message that coincidence did not dawn on me. i originally was going to use another color but i had second thoughts about my original choices. given my own color blindness, deeming any color in a derogatory manner is not feasible for me. pink was a safer choice. good call on the M5 coincidence. IMO that is a perfect example though. she adopted pink for a specific reason and that reason is described. now, imagine if years go by and poor Unice get killed in some adventure, looses the armor, or retires and sells the gear. the PCs find it. it may seem odd now that the armor is its particular color. likewise, Unice may have ticked off someone who takes offense at the sight of someone wearing the armor. conversely, some folks may hold Unice in high regard and take umbrage at the PCs using it. or they may want it for some adventurer that follows in Unice's memory. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:14:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Aggressive parties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit okay...i was originally going to avoid this thread but what the heck. i am on a roll today. this may sound a bit harsh, but if the PCs managed to rush in like gang busters and wipe the floor so easily, then the opposition was below their abilities. i don't know the details of the adventure, the opposition, or the PCs so i appologize if it was not a cake walk or the comment seems too harsh. the PCs could have met the thieves' lower level staff members. the tougher members are off doing guild related tasks. the PCs could find the arrival of reinforcements. since they are already in the compound they now have to fight their way out past the newly arrived NPCs who return to find their brethren laying dead at the hands of the PCs. i would also add that the thieves compound could be a smaller component of the thieves guild. the guild would be pretty ticked off and take action, either mobilizing to meet the PCs while they are at the compound or attacking them later. given that the party's aggressiveness threw a wrench in the adventure, expanding the thieves guild would work. i would like to point out that thieves guild are tuff nuts to crack. many have existed for years operating under the noses of the regional governments. they operate under a mafia type secrecy that the PCs should find difficult to pierce. sorry if i sound a bit harsh. i am in the process of doing a descriptive write up on the Shadow Hand Thieves Guild of Thyatis. i would also suggest Den of Thieves. it is an official generic product on a thieves guild. i am using some of it as the basis of the Shadow Hand project. in other regards....aggressive PCs are a problem. whether PnP or computer based, i tend to game in a slow and calculated manner. if they get to hurried, toss in some traps and penalize Find Trap rolls to account for their haste. have the adventure include numerous small details that need to be witnessed to continue the adventure plotline. if they get brutal, have clerics fizzle their spells (immortal ticked at the abuse of power). use their haste induced noise against them. after the adventure is over tell them items they missed. lie if need be to prove your point....they'll never know what they really missed. they have no one to blame but themselves. and to tie into the "limiting of magic items" thread, be obviously scimpy on the subsequent adventures. if they protest simply say that they would have missed them anyway. or you could put the items in carefully placed areas to encourage slowed paces. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:27:58 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Angello: <> oh yeah i agree. alot depends upon the level of annoyance and/or social=20 stigma and just what kind of powers the item has. i would like to add that IMO adventurers would usually wear armor (and gear)= =20 that sets them apart. much of it is found in dungeon crawls and such. the=20 normal stuff is going to be normal in design. the magical varieties and thos= e=20 not bound for immediate sale are going to be stylish and ornate.=20 ex #1 the stereotypical heroic warrior would want equipment different from=20 those found in the local smithy's shop. likewise he would not want to be=20 mistaken for a member of the army or the city guard. it is part intimidation= ,=20 part flamboyance, and part roguish nature of the adventurer lifestyle.=20 ex #2 the stereotypical antagonistic evil NPC would want weapons that strike= =20 terror and intimidate opponents. there would also be a cruel or dark=20 undertone to emphasize the evil. a shield embalzened with the visage of an=20 gruisome evil entity (spice girls, my boss). helm shaped like a demon. staff= =20 made of or adorned with human remains (skulls, bones).=20 of coarse all of this is tossed out the window if the adversary is keeping=20 his intentions secret.=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:11:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Ogg.: Re: [MYSTARA] Munchkin- was 'The Famous Equation of Scaevola' Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 So... who read the book: please, come out! and tell us more about these people's characteristics. Thank you... Federico Il Fri, 01 June 2001, "G.P. Agosta" ha scritto: > > Master's Pawn wrote: > > > And yet . . . I must still ask, WHY are they called Munchkins? What is the > > derivation of the term? > > From the Merriam-Webster: > "Etymology: the Munchkins, diminutive creatures in The Wonderful Wizard > of Oz (1900) by L. Frank Baum" > > How this came to our meaning, I wouldn't know. > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > agosta@elet.polimi.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:19:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Gilles Leblanc wrote: > I hope this is a joke or your post was a big insult to your inteligence. You > seem to have given meanings to my posts that I didn't intend. I don't play > Mystara with Planescape or SpellJammer, and by the way, who said I did ? I > mentioned both of these settings as appropriate for 3E in another post, this > does not mean I say play Mystara with those settings ? *sigh* I suppose sarcastic HTML tags are just lost on people nowadays. The argument was overbefore you decided to reply. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:20:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Ogg.: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Fri, 01 June 2001, Angelo Bertolli ha scritto: > > I had another idea. That is the cleric has a chance of losing a point of > strength (or pick your attribute) every time Raise Dead is used. > > Angelo ----------------- This is absolutely the best idea I heard of, on the subject! It's grand: think of it: if you loose 1 CON point when you're raised, you'll most probably want to be raised, nevertheless. Also if you have to pass a CON check you'll surely want to try, however. But if it's the CLERIC who risks... well: we're going to see REAL ROLEPLAYING around the table :) I also suggest loosing 2 CON points if you choose Raise Dead Fully. And the same side effects when you reverse cast (Finger of Death/Obliterate). Federico AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:31:47 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Alex Benson [mailto:Alex295@AOL.COM] > a shield embalzened with the visage of an >gruisome evil entity (spice girls, my boss). LOL... but since my dad is my boss, I'll need a pic of yours! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:40:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Christmas trees Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Il Fri, 01 June 2001, hafnir ha scritto: And anyway, getting back to the original topic, that's definitely a way to permanently get rid of some magic items - get rid of the character who owns them! :) hafnir. _____________________ Not at all, Hafnir! Not at all! That would be a DISASTER, instead, as the other already overpowered characters would loot the dead one's magic items and literally go around resembling Christmas trees! Federico AltaVista Free email service ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:59:33 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 31 May 2001, The Stalker wrote: > That's a matter of opinion. Personally I feel 3e is just as filled with > holes as 2e or OD&D, and who's to say their opinion on the matter is better > than mine? Tell me one. 3e certainly seems pretty coherent to me. > So did 2e. In 'Complete Book of Humanoids' there rules for playing myriads > of strange humanoids. If you had the 'Council of Wyrms' set (as I do), you > even have rules for playing dragons, though I've never done so. Granted, 3e > has even more options because stats and so are in the MM, but then I could > argue that 2e was better than OD&D that way. See, that's the point. You needed a book and a boxed set to play monster PCs. With 3e you just need the core books. And you cannot tell me that Council of Wyrms was not broken anyway. Dragon PCs just didn't work with the 2e ruleset very well. > Why aren't 2e stats open-ended? Sure, the PHB only lists them up to 25, but > once you get there, it doesn't matter so much because the character has a > stat equalling immortal creatures, so who cares if it can get higher? I > certainly don't... Pretty poor Immortals, I say. Also, on the subject of 18/**? Come on. If that isn't a stupid hack of a game mechanic I don't know what is. Whole numbers people! There isn't "degrees of 18" otherwise 18 loses its meaning. > TSR wasn't going to put you in straight-jacket if you didn't use > Planescape, you know :) But if you didn't want to use it, then a lot of acessories became functionally useless. > yes, it's a great thing. If you want the option of crossovers between the > worlds, options of Spelljammer and Planescape campaigns (which I do), then > it's not so great. Well that may be personal preference. I prefer the gate spell, or a dimensional rift. Much cleaner, and no phlogiston. > is to say one cosmology is more appropriate than the next? If anyone did > so, the idea of 'open cosmology' would immediately be lost! Each world has it's own cosmology. Greyhawk has the "Great Wheel", Toril has a "Tree", Mystara would have the "Pantheonless Group of Independant Immortals and the Infinite Outer Planes" (that sounds like the name of a band!) > But I know the 2e cosmology is a sore point for many OD&D fans. I just > never understood why. Because it was poorly designed, based loosely on alignment, and holds no interest to a person who grew up with a Multiverse based on fantasy-mathematics, biases and tetraspaces. OD&D cosmology was uncaring and infinite. Sure, you lived on a planet that spawned a lot of Immortals, but Mystara is only one of possibly millions that also exist. Immortals aren't trapped to a particular abstract alignment structure, neither are they trapped into pantheons. Immortals can shape the universe, and are not shaped by the universe. But that's another difference between Mystara and the rest of TSR's original worlds. Alignment just didn't matter a great deal. One country's lawful citizen was another's anarchist. There were no absolutes, no black and whites. > So? I tossed them out fairly quickly anyway... Just as I will do with a > number of 3e rules if I begin playing it. Heh. Level limitsa are one of the few balancing acts in AD&D2. Interesting that you tossed them. > The Immortals aren't really all that different from 2e gods, either. There > are some, but they're not major enough not to bridge if you want to, > especially since the 2e gods are never described in any huge details. Which > gives me the option of applying some Mystaran traits to *all* my Planescape > stuff - Mystara simply has more Immortal/planar detail here, so why > shouldn't I use it in 2e? No problem using Mystaran Material in 2e. The problem is using 2e to shape the obviously superior Mystaran material. (i.e. fitting Mystara in a crystal sphere and the Immortals into the Great Wheel) Plus, any Immortal can kick the crap out of an AD&D God. Immortals can create universes, and destroy them just as easily. > Spelljammer version which made more "sense" somehow. So IMC Mystara and the > other planets of the system are in their own Crystal Sphere. Why is that a > problem at all? Because Crystal Spheres are dumb. I know that's petty, as i tossed out Bruce's theory of gravity too (as mathematically, it has ramifications that actually force the universe into collapsing fairly quickly.). But Crystal Spheres aren't physical. They don't seem right for Mystara, especially as every bit of Mystaran cosmological material expresses that Mystara is not segregated from the Universe. > So, does that mean multi-classing shouldn't be permitted under 3e rules > because it's 'un-Mystaran' somehow? I can well understand why players might > want to try playing something new, and OD&D has few classes and combos to > choose from. No. You missed the point. I said 3e allowed one to describe NPCs in a better way than oD&D. > as myself) continue to play Mystara with 2e rules? Doesn't that sort of > imply that there is something wrong with OD&D? No. I just implies that you didn't grow up with oD&D. You see, Mystara was my first world, oD&D my first system. I never graduated to AD&D, partly because I found oD&D far superior to it, and partly because Mystara wasn't an AD&D world. Mystaran products always seemed a higher quality than the AD&D shovelware that coated the Hobbytown where I shopped. When Mystara was forcibly converted to AD&D, I saw the shoddy conversion job, and the fact that Karameikos:KoA cost three times as much as Gaz 1, contained nothing more than Gaz 1, and was in a box the size of Champions of Mystara, which cost $10 less. I know that wasn't the system's fault, but it certainly didn't make my opinion of it any better. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:05:04 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition In-Reply-To: <3B183FBF.77B0@hotkey.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, The Ancient One wrote: > well... based on a conversation with a Hasbro person, not that long... > D&D is selling very well but there are some modifications to make to > create more "sellability". And of course, we all know "sellability" implies "whitewashing for the masses" Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:03:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > I agree completely with you and with many others that say "Hey, 3E is > modular, 3E allows you to drop things you don't like but allows for more > options if you like". Actually, this is not entirely true. Try removing feats or skills from 3e/d20 (they're the same, Giulio!). It's essentially impossible, while it was extremely easy under OD&D/AD&D (actually, proficiencies were optional, and so were skills and weapon mastery). > And I cannot see why > something that was a problem with 2E (elven clerics, e.g.) can be solved > by 3E that allows to play "elven psionicist/monks/sorcerers". > The fact that 3E rules explicitly say "you can avoid using some rules" can be > even worse than 2E's "if something is missing you'll need to fix it", because > in 3E people is ENCOURAGED to play weirdos and be powergamers. Actually, the DM had the same power under AD&D 2e. The entire foreword of the DMG was devoted to explain this concept. And, BTW, level limits were not a must in 2e. The DMG has alternative rules for handling non-human character progression. > In 2E the > feeling was mostly Mystaran. Gnomes are a part of the Mystaran setting. Yes, I used gnomes as classed NPCs well before switching to AD&D (and without having Top Ballista). > The only > problem was "elven clerics", mainly. Which is not a much of a problem. I don't see why Mystaran elves shouldn't be allowed to be clerics (that's what Treekeeper are). Sure, with a bit more work, they should be specialty priests, but that's standard in AD&D --if you need specialty priests, you have to build them. > And the various "subclasses" that > appeared > in the Gaz's could be used by changing them into kits in a way similar > to that of prestige classes, thus solving even this issue. This is especially true for Paladins. Note that many people bring "Paladins at first level!" as a great problem with AD&D Mystara. Simply put, there should be no Paladins in Mystara: OD&D Paladins are Defenders, as in the Savage Coast rules. Adding AD&D Paladins is much like adding Psionicists: your choice, but it has little to do with the setting. As for Druids at first level, they existed in OD&D too (Ierendi Gaz), so that's a moot point. > And I say: 2E and 3E are in many respects equal. Noooooo!!! AD&D 2e is superior by far! 3e is a silly attempt to make the game more "flexible" with respect to what kind of abilities/powers a character could get, something it was never designed for (it is class-based, in the end). In the end, the only effect was to have it geared towards superheroes (PCs high powered by default, and fast level raising), making it near impossible to revert to a more "off the farm" game style. They should have called it Dungeons & Dragonball... > So I tell you again: my issue is not the rules. It's the fact that new players will > grow up to become munchkin, and this because of the 3E format. So I dislike 3E just for this. It is difficult to say whether is this this way or the opposite, though. > Sorry for the rant. I say it again: I like the D20 idea of modernizing the game and > of giving an universal system, and it's not important if I don't agree with > some game mechanism. Ah, ok, so what you like of d20 is the skill system, and perhaps the homogeneous stat modifiers, and what you don't like is the class system? [sorry if I ask, but really, d20 is 3e bar the XP chart...] -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:26:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Heard wrote: > > more work as a DM IMO, making monsters is almost always like making a bunch > of NPCs and the CR system means that if I'm lazy I can figure the Xp ahead of > time and how badly I'm going to hurt the party without looking at anything > but that little magic number. No more consulting my chart of prefigured > monster XPs from 2E, Instead, you'll have to wander among heaps of monsters descriptions to find one that is similar enogh to the new one, so you can determine the right XP value. But then, if the new monster is so similar to an existing one, one might wonder why he had to create it :P > course, the only place you'll find any older supplements or rules in used > book shops so you'll probably end up having to convert anything new that > looks interesting or useful which means you'll have to become familiar with > the new rules to some extent. Uhm, actually the whole xD&D stuff will be available as ESDs in time. So, people playing the old editions will have material for years to come (without taking into account the wealth of existing fan materials). Much more, and of higher quality, as far as I can see, than 3e material will be for some time --you see, it's going to be all rules and Forgotten Realms. > Its not so easy to float three or four > newbies through a campaign every year when they can't buy the same rulebooks > that you're using or they're continually making wrong assumptions on rules > because they familiar with another set. Remember, there are always the ESD. And then, PCs don't need rulebooks. That's DM stuff anyway. > Maybe your home campaign is OD&D or > 2E no matter what, but I bet in a couple of years you'll have a hard time > trying to find a game to play in with new people that doesn't make you have > to learn the new ruleset. Would you be gaming in a group where you are forced to learn the rules more in depth than the strict necessary? Most of my players only know what dice they have to roll to hit, check a skill, and get initiative. > Its certainly a cleaner core mechanic than any previous editions, or any > other game I've come across before. Really? The skill system is exactly the same as Fuzion's, down to the numbers, and so are the stat bonuses (add +2). Not much of an innovation, I'd say. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:38:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > > TSR wasn't going to put you in straight-jacket if you didn't use > > Planescape, you know :) > > But if you didn't want to use it, then a lot of acessories became > functionally useless. Yes, and if you wasn't going to play Dark Sun, lots of supplement would become useless... but that's obvious. > No problem using Mystaran Material in 2e. The problem is using 2e to shape > the obviously superior Mystaran material. (i.e. fitting Mystara in a > crystal sphere and the Immortals into the Great Wheel) Actually, the "obviously superior" material about space and outer planes is quite limited... > Plus, any Immortal can kick the crap out of an AD&D God. Immortals can > create universes, and destroy them just as easily. Please! Immortals aren't that powerful: their powers have limits, set by rules not especially different from those for mortals. And anyway, it's just a matter of perspective. > > as myself) continue to play Mystara with 2e rules? Doesn't that sort of > > imply that there is something wrong with OD&D? > > No. I just implies that you didn't grow up with oD&D. You see, Mystara was It doesn't. Many of us who play Mystara AD&D started with OD&D, and some never saw a Mystaran AD&D product, with the probable exception of the Savage Coast CS (which, I can say, is definitely good). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:49:44 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No. I just implies that you didn't grow up with oD&D. You see, Mystara > was my first world, oD&D my first system. I never graduated to AD&D, > partly because I found oD&D far superior to it, and partly because > Mystara wasn't an AD&D world. > Mystaran products always seemed a higher quality than the AD&D > shovelware that coated the Hobbytown where I shopped. When Mystara was Well when we were doing OD&D instead of AD&D1 or AD&D2 ten years ago, I always told my players it was partly because I didn't have time or money to properly keep up with AD&D, which is true, but just as well it's 'cause I'd look at AD&D and see this enormous mess of inconsistent rules across the board, especially when you threw stuff like Dragon magazine material into the mix as well. I preferred to keep life simple and follow the slower moving OD&D, which would basically look at all the crap that got introduced into AD&D and only slowly introduce the stuff that's actually stood the test of time, while at the same time tailoring it specifically for the world and the types of players and DM who run OD&D. So that worked great for me. hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:49:42 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In all my years of gaming, as a DM and player, I have used the Raise > Dead only once. I never restricted its use, or said it would cost to > much, or used a deity to interfere in the process. I guess it is just > that I have been lucky, or that my players know that when they die, it > ... > better place than here. On the other hand we have lost quite a few > characters from stupid things, and they deserve their stupid deaths. Hmm, in my campaign it's a fairly common thing for the party to at least consider. It makes sense to me why players would consider it - you've worked hard on a character and you like him and don't want to see him go. The character may be in a better place, but if nothing else in game terms the players miss him and Raise Dead is a great way to get him back, plus they may need his help in the future! It's odd to me to think of a D&D world without "Raise Dead" - to me it's a big part of the charm, that things and people you like can come back. I mean, it's a game, so you want to give the players a happy ending [that sounds so bad.... ;) ] What I've been arguing is just that I definitely think there should be a real cost that discourages its indiscriminate use, that's all, and keeps death a thing to at least be feared to at least some extent. > all this agreement is beginning to get a tad scary. see what > happens...i take a month or two of to play Asheron's Call and the > MML goes and gets civil on me. :-) Aw kiss my Blarney Stones +3. ;) [the biggest pair you've ever seen dinkleberry ;) ] > use other means besides the clean and cut Raise Dead spell. > ressurection and reincarnation can make an interesting return to the > land of the living. of coarse validating the reason for this use of I guess you can kinda say I did that when the party had to get themselves out of Niflheim. Then there are cases where an Immortal outright raises someone, like when Loki brought back the Master, or Alphatia brought back Stillian in my 1999 BDP. But yes, these should all be appropriately rare (each of these is actually incredibly rare, with each occurrence historically noteworthy). > Not at all, Hafnir! Not at all! That would be a DISASTER, instead, as > the other already overpowered characters would loot the dead one's > magic items and literally go around resembling Christmas trees! Well, I was joking, but even taking me seriously, then if the enemy has enough time to obliterate the character's body, I'm sure he'd loot the body first! And hey, not only does that get rid of magic items, it gives them to the enemy! (again, this is as much tongue in cheek as anything else) :) hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:57:25 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/1/2001 2:22:05 PM Central Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > Instead, you'll have to wander among heaps of monsters descriptions to > find one that is similar enogh to the new one, so you can determine the > right XP value. But then, if the new monster is so similar to an > existing one, one might wonder why he had to create it :P Because its a new ruleset? That uses similar but different rules? > Uhm, actually the whole xD&D stuff will be available as ESDs in time. > So, people playing the old editions will have material for years to come > (without taking into account the wealth of existing fan materials). Much > more, and of higher quality, as far as I can see, than 3e material will > be for some time --you see, it's going to be all rules and Forgotten > Realms. > The FRCS is actually a great little book. Lots of good ideas in a nicely presented format. Speaking of the ESDs, they're great- but eventually they'll all be done and the only new stuff coming out will be for 3E. That was approximately my point. I'm not saying thats an awfully good thing, but it is a valid reasoning for why someone should consider the new edition. Of course, if you're dead set on considering everything but what you're using crap and such then theres not much point in discussing anything in a sane fashion is there? > > Its not so easy to float three or four > > newbies through a campaign every year when they can't buy the same > rulebooks > > that you're using or they're continually making wrong assumptions on rules > > because they familiar with another set. > > Remember, there are always the ESD. And then, PCs don't need rulebooks. > That's DM stuff anyway. > I thought my players had to have rulebooks to make up characters and understand the rules enough that I didn't have to hold their hands through the first few months. If my players have their own rulebooks I can tell them to read the rules. Its a lot of pressure off of my back. > > Maybe your home campaign is OD&D or > > 2E no matter what, but I bet in a couple of years you'll have a hard time > > trying to find a game to play in with new people that doesn't make you > have > > to learn the new ruleset. > > Would you be gaming in a group where you are forced to learn the rules > more in depth than the strict necessary? Most of my players only know > what dice they have to roll to hit, check a skill, and get initiative. > Yes, I would. Most of my players run games themselves of one sort or another, and I've found myself learning any number of games that I wouldn't have considered for any other reason than a friend was running a game of it (White Wolf anyone? Bleg!). Most of my players wouldn't play a game if they didn't understand how it operated enough and neither would I, but thats a matter of taste I suppose. > > Its certainly a cleaner core mechanic than any previous editions, or any > > other game I've come across before. > > Really? The skill system is exactly the same as Fuzion's, down to the > numbers, and so are the stat bonuses (add +2). Not much of an > innovation, I'd say. Being a rather hardcore Cyberpunk player from way back, I've heard of Fuzion but I haven't really gotten into it beyond noting that it somehow turned RT games into the manufacturers of Dragonball Z and Bubblegum Crisis. I know d20 is similar to the Interlock system, and that Fuzion is based off of that right? I like the Interlock system, but Interlock never felt D&D enough for me. Of course, addition and subtraction and random numbers have been around for a long time too. So if we're quibbling then I guess nothing is new under the sun. I don't agree obviously but thats fine, I don't have to respect your opinion any more than you seem to mine. JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:30:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Heard wrote: > > The FRCS is actually a great little book. Lots of good ideas in a nicely > presented format. Speaking of the ESDs, they're great- but eventually they'll > all be done and the only new stuff coming out will be for 3E. That was > approximately my point. I'm not saying thats an awfully good thing, but it is > a valid reasoning for why someone should consider the new edition. Of course, > if you're dead set on considering everything but what you're using crap and > such then theres not much point in discussing anything in a sane fashion is > there? Actually, I like most of the AD&D stuff, except FR and some parts of GH, even though my campaigns are mostly limited to Mystara. Also, I quite like most of OD&D, though I don't use it currently. So, there're only a few items that I don't like (3e & FR, especially), it's just that they happen to be the ones that have most possibilities to be around for some time. Still, by the time I finish using all of the useful ESD stuff, there'll probably be a 4th editon around. > I thought my players had to have rulebooks to make up characters and > understand the rules enough that I didn't have to hold their hands through > the first few months. If my players have their own rulebooks I can tell them > to read the rules. Its a lot of pressure off of my back. I prefer to have the pressure, and let players concentrate on the roleplaying part. I think it works much better, especially with newbies. > > > Its certainly a cleaner core mechanic than any previous editions, or any > > > other game I've come across before. > > > > Really? The skill system is exactly the same as Fuzion's, down to the > > numbers, and so are the stat bonuses (add +2). Not much of an > > innovation, I'd say. > > Being a rather hardcore Cyberpunk player from way back, I've heard of Fuzion > but I haven't really gotten into it beyond noting that it somehow turned RT > games into the manufacturers of Dragonball Z and Bubblegum Crisis. I know d20 > is similar to the Interlock system, and that Fuzion is based off of that > right? Yes. So, while I may agree that 3e is cleaner than other xD&D edition, I still doubt it is cleaner than many other games. In the end, if the main point is clarity, the various editions of xD&D are more or less equivalent. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:04:31 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B17E717.E58A3226@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > impossible to revert to a more "off the farm" game style. They should > have called it Dungeons & Dragonball... It may seem overpowered, but guess what - At least it's consistent. AD&D2 can't be called that unless you are illiterate. AD&D2's major stength lies in the fact that there were so many rules loopholes and conflicting ideas that the system was more of a hodgepodge crapshoot than a game system. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B17EC4A.338E4542@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > more, and of higher quality, as far as I can see, than 3e material will > be for some time --you see, it's going to be all rules and Forgotten > Realms. And this was different from AD&D2 how? Oh yeah. It isn't. You cannot seriously tell me that other settings got half the treatment that FR got years go. At least now the powers that be have no problem with fans writing for their dead worlds. > Remember, there are always the ESD. And then, PCs don't need rulebooks. Yep. they call it the "Player's Guide" just for kicks right? > Really? The skill system is exactly the same as Fuzion's, down to the > numbers, and so are the stat bonuses (add +2). Not much of an > innovation, I'd say. If you think that skills were the only innovation in 3e, then you have to read the books again. 3e has a simple core mechanic. Roll d20 for everything. Can't go wrong there. Newbies have always had a problem reading THAC0 or remembering which powers took low rolls, and which were high rolls, it's all streamlined now. Its easier and cleaner. It's like moving from fvwm to Gnome. Same functionality, easier setup and go. I never liked DMing with a pile of books and tables in front of me. 3e reduces the clutter nicely. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B17EF2A.EC881B32@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > Yes, and if you wasn't going to play Dark Sun, lots of supplement would > become useless... but that's obvious. But dark sun wasn't the core cosmology of the AD&D universe either. > Actually, the "obviously superior" material about space and outer planes > is quite limited... It is, and I will grant you that. However, it is better to have a small, and well-written idea than reams of paper that say nothing. > Please! Immortals aren't that powerful: their powers have limits, set by > rules not especially different from those for mortals. And anyway, it's > just a matter of perspective. An Immortal not on the prime plane is not constrained by anything. > It doesn't. Many of us who play Mystara AD&D started with OD&D, and some > never saw a Mystaran AD&D product, with the probable exception of the > Savage Coast CS (which, I can say, is definitely good). I prefer the savage coast as described by Bruce in the VotPA serial.. but that's just my opinion. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:21:58 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed BTW, the cosmology is not mentioned in the 2E PHB, you seem to think it is. >open ended in the basic assumption of many things than 2E was. Who cares if >I >have to house rule a game to death to make it? Not me, but its nice when a >new player coming into a game doesn't have to labor through a booklet in >addition to the PHB to get acquainted to my game. My 2E game had its own >little 72 page book at one point, because I'd changed things so much. >About ????????? House rule a game to death ??? I don't have one "formal" house rule and I DMed since 2E came out. Laboring through a booklet ? well maybe your players, but Ive never heard of this. >What I don't understand is how people who labor under their dog-eared >copies >of old rulesets and whatnot get defensive and defiant in the face of >change. What if I don't like change, I have the right to play 2E, your just as dog-eared than me with 3E. Im no 2E die hard I play many other systems, I have a right to like 2E better than 3E why not ? I play and DM in 2E, Call of Cthlulhu and Alternity, I have also tried OD&D, 3E and Mythus. You could say your dog-eared into supporting anything TSR release, but I don't beleive this by the way. >True, no one's making anyone buy anything or play any way they please. Of >course, the only place you'll find any older supplements or rules in used >book shops so you'll probably end up having to convert anything new that >looks interesting or useful which means you'll have to become familiar with >the new rules to some extent. I agree, if you're running out of you're own I have bought thousands of dollars of RPG books, I don't need to buy more anymore, so Im happy with what I have, I have 80% of all stuff Mystara ( missing only most old crappy modules ), 95% of all Darksun products, most SpellJammer products, Birthright and Forgotten Realms box and tons of book for other RPGs ( espacially Call of Cthulhu ). > >2E no matter what, but I bet in a couple of years you'll have a hard time >trying to find a game to play in with new people that doesn't make you have >to learn the new ruleset. At best, 3E is open ended and doesn't try to tell >me how to play my game but tells me how the game was designed to be played. No unlike you I play with experienced role-players and gamers who already know the system, and even when I introduce poeple to a new one then learn pretty quick since their experienced gamers who know how to play 3, 4 or 5 systems already. In a couple of years I don't see poeple not being able to play 2E. Most of my players don't have a PHB btw and they are fine. Some rules ( espacially Alternity and Call of Cthulhu only simple explanations from the DM are required ). >At worst, 3E is a bit more wargamey and powergaming focussed for my tastes. Yeah most poeple I know who play's 3E are below 17, play Ultra-munchkin and don't care about role-playing or a campaign setting. Bottom line is this, I try to get farther away from rules when I play and judge a lot of decisions myself. Because a product exsit which isnt related to Mystara I have to use it, much less buy it. So why should 3E be better for me in this case ? I tought recently of switching but after reading the rules I decided against it. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:34:12 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >The FRCS is actually a great little book. Lots of good ideas in a nicely >presented format. Speaking of the ESDs, they're great- but eventually >they'll >all be done and the only new stuff coming out will be for 3E. That was >approximately my point. I'm not saying thats an awfully good thing, but it >is >a valid reasoning for why someone should consider the new edition. Of >course, >if you're dead set on considering everything but what you're using crap and >such then theres not much point in discussing anything in a sane fashion is >there? > > That's a good point. My opinion on this is I already bought so much background material and after a while you tire of rules and start more to role-play, so what is important isnt rule books but source material like the Gazeteers. Fact is I have all the published Mystara, Darksun and StarDrive ( Alternity ) source material, why should I buy more ? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:59:33 -0400, SteelAngel wrote: >On Thu, 31 May 2001, The Stalker wrote: > >> That's a matter of opinion. Personally I feel 3e is just as filled with >> holes as 2e or OD&D, and who's to say their opinion on the matter is better >> than mine? > >Tell me one. 3e certainly seems pretty coherent to me. > Okay. Concentration is based on Constitution even though the PH starts on p.9 when describing Wisdom, "Wisdom describes a character's willpower...". It says more than that, but that's how it starts. Wisdom describes, among other things, a character's willpower in 3e. Since Wisdom is not the relevant stat for Concentration (Constitution is), one must conclude that the designers feel that willpower has no bearing on a person's ability to concentrate... 'nuff said! I'll give you another for free... The rules state (p.52) that "wizards have a slight tendency toward law over chaos because the study of magic rewards those who are disciplined". Yet not only are elves supposed to be good wizards, no, it is, in fact, their favored class, even though they are allegedly chaotic good in general. Note that I'm talking about the general state of things in the game - not what each, unique character might, of course, choose! They should either have let the elves have sorceror as the favored class, or just dropped the reference. That would have been more consistent. The description given is not. There are other issues for me, mostly the sorceror (I hate that 'fireball dispenser' idea - what a boring concept), and the 'spellcasting causes attacks of opportunity' rule which forces certain roles in the game - mostly wizards and sorcerors, obviously, but, because of that, also certain roles on the other classes that the spellcasters can then not fill. Those are personal feelings on my part, though, while the above are not so much so. >> So did 2e. In 'Complete Book of Humanoids' there rules for playing myriads >> of strange humanoids. If you had the 'Council of Wyrms' set (as I do), you >> even have rules for playing dragons, though I've never done so. Granted, 3e >> has even more options because stats and so are in the MM, but then I could >> argue that 2e was better than OD&D that way. > >See, that's the point. You needed a book and a boxed set to play monster >PCs. With 3e you just need the core books. > I doubt it'll stay that way though. Call me negative, but WOTC's promises of 'not all those annoying extra books to make extra bucks for us' already seems to have been abandoned as WOTC are busy releasing separate books for most of the different classes... And btw, how many books did you need in OD&D to play humanoids? It was no worse in 2e. >And you cannot tell me that Council of Wyrms was not broken anyway. Dragon >PCs just didn't work with the 2e ruleset very well. > They do in 3e? I doubt that! 2e dragons are sheep next to the 3e versions, so how can you let people play one and retain game balance, unless everyone plays a dragons (which was the premise in Council of Wyrms). >> Why aren't 2e stats open-ended? Sure, the PHB only lists them up to 25, but >> once you get there, it doesn't matter so much because the character has a >> stat equalling immortal creatures, so who cares if it can get higher? I >> certainly don't... > >Pretty poor Immortals, I say. No worse than most of the initiates or temporals listed in WOTI, though. Sure, Ixion and Thanatos are a *lot* more powerful, but would you let your players play them? I certainly wouldn't, so it matters little for me. > Also, on the subject of 18/**? Come on. If >that isn't a stupid hack of a game mechanic I don't know what is. Whole >numbers people! There isn't "degrees of 18" otherwise 18 loses its >meaning. > Agreed. That 18/** was pretty stupid. We do use it IMC, although I have deviced an alternate method to get rid of it. Not so sure I'll use it now, though, since the game does seem to function well enough at the moment. The option is lying around on my hard-drive in case I change my mind, though... >> TSR wasn't going to put you in straight-jacket if you didn't use >> Planescape, you know :) > >But if you didn't want to use it, then a lot of acessories became >functionally useless. > Only those marked 'Planescape' on them! Besides, while WOTC are saying 'open cosmology' now, they're also saying 'Planescape had a lot of good stuff no one bought because it said Planescape on it...'. Now, does that mean they're abandoning the Planescape stuff, or does it mean they are putting it into the core game? Because if it means the latter, then I don't see that much is changing... >> yes, it's a great thing. If you want the option of crossovers between the >> worlds, options of Spelljammer and Planescape campaigns (which I do), then >> it's not so great. > >Well that may be personal preference. I prefer the gate spell, or a >dimensional rift. Much cleaner, and no phlogiston. > The Phlogiston applies only to Spelljammer, not Planescape. Planescape works just the way you describe - with dimensional rifts and gates. Spelljammer is actually not 'planar' because it suggests that all worlds exist in one Prime Material plane (not separate planes like the core 2e books suggest). This singular Prime Material plane contains primarily the river of explosive gases called the Phlogiston (or 'the Flow'), except that small 'bubbles' called Crystal Spheres 'float' in this 'river'. Each of these Spheres then contain their own solar system with unique local conditions. In short, Spelljammer takes place only in the Prime Material plane, and is not other-planar at all. If we move to FR and look at Elminster (yes, I know - I hate him and FR, too), we find that he actually agrees with you - he knows the Phlogiston is there and that Spelljamming exists, but he doesn't see why he should bother, since, to him, plane- walking is much easier (and probably more 'wizardly' too). >> is to say one cosmology is more appropriate than the next? If anyone did >> so, the idea of 'open cosmology' would immediately be lost! > >Each world has it's own cosmology. Greyhawk has the "Great Wheel", Toril >has a "Tree", Mystara would have the "Pantheonless Group of Independant >Immortals and the Infinite Outer Planes" (that sounds like the name of a >band!) > Well, I know I'll stick with the 2e cosmology because it allows me to use Spelljammer and Planescape stuff which I think is rather fun. 3e rules be damned for all I care :) >> But I know the 2e cosmology is a sore point for many OD&D fans. I just >> never understood why. > >Because it was poorly designed, based loosely on alignment, and holds no >interest to a person who grew up with a Multiverse based on >fantasy-mathematics, biases and tetraspaces. > Well, I think there are pros and cons in 2e. The cons are that there are simply too many outer planes - who cares if there is yet another plane with variations of lawful good? Still, you don't have to use it - just skip that plane. The pros are some of the descriptions - I really like the descriptions of the Blood War which is eternally fought between the Demons (Tanar'ri) of The Abyss and the Devils (Baatezu) of The Nine Hells. Especially since they don't even fight them on their own plane (IIRC, most of the battles are in Tarterus)! That's my take, at least. >OD&D cosmology was uncaring and infinite. Sure, you lived on a planet that >spawned a lot of Immortals, but Mystara is only one of possibly millions >that also exist. Immortals aren't trapped to a particular abstract >alignment structure, neither are they trapped into pantheons. Immortals >can shape the universe, and are not shaped by the universe. > OD&D Immortals do have alignments. They aren't really all that different from the rest in my eyes. And why couldn't the deities of other worlds shape the universe? Seems to me like they do, at least as much as the AD&D deities... Lord Ao my command the FR gods, but the Old Ones sort of mirror that for the Mystaran Immortals, I think. >But that's another difference between Mystara and the rest of TSR's >original worlds. Alignment just didn't matter a great deal. One country's >lawful citizen was another's anarchist. There were no absolutes, no black >and whites. > This relates to Mystara and its mortals more so that its Immortals, I think. But yes, it is Mystara's major strength and a big reason why many of us prefer Mystara to other game worlds. > >> So? I tossed them out fairly quickly anyway... Just as I will do with a >> number of 3e rules if I begin playing it. > >Heh. Level limitsa are one of the few balancing acts in AD&D2. Interesting >that you tossed them. > Well, I didn't toss them completely. I do use them as guidelines in the sense that once characters begin going above them, they need more experience to advance to the next level. In 2e they are generally so high, though, that they don't matter IMC, since we've never gamed to such high levels. Currently the PCs are around levels 9-11. We're in early AC 1008 playing WOTI. Some players have expressed desire to play 3e rules. Since I have to learn them anyway for some MA-stuff and other net projects I'm working on, I've decided to give it a try, so I'll pretty much play to the end of WOTI, then let the characters 'settle down' during AC 1010 (there are a few scores to settle - particularly one with the Black Eagle, which I just know the players will love). By 1011 we can then end the characters and roll up new ones under 3e rules. Another reason for this is that the characters are then at levels where it becomes boring to play them because they're so tough! Sure, I could toss even more powerful foes at them, but it isn't so fun, and I never understood the way how the campaigns suddenly seem to stop having myriads of orcs and goblins simply because the PCs became too high-level to bother with them. It's more fun to start over. Then we can pull out the old characters and play a high-level adventure now and then... (getting serious off-topic here, I know. Mea culpa.) >> The Immortals aren't really all that different from 2e gods, either. There >> are some, but they're not major enough not to bridge if you want to, >> especially since the 2e gods are never described in any huge details. Which >> gives me the option of applying some Mystaran traits to *all* my Planescape >> stuff - Mystara simply has more Immortal/planar detail here, so why >> shouldn't I use it in 2e? > >No problem using Mystaran Material in 2e. The problem is using 2e to shape >the obviously superior Mystaran material. (i.e. fitting Mystara in a >crystal sphere and the Immortals into the Great Wheel) > Well, as you said, Mystara's space is never described in detail, so 'Mystaraspace' (or 'The Void' as I like to call it) is no problem. Why don't the Immortals fit? I would think the Norse gods of Asgard would fit even worse with their vastly differing alignments... Yet they are all there in 2e! >Plus, any Immortal can kick the crap out of an AD&D God. Immortals can >create universes, and destroy them just as easily. > Well, we don't know because 2e never supplied us with stats for the gods, only their avatars. I do seem to recall that 1e gods had some pretty severe stats, though! Besides, I don't care what the gods/immortals' stats are - no way my players will *ever* be allowed to beat up Ixion or Thanatos! >> Spelljammer version which made more "sense" somehow. So IMC Mystara and the >> other planets of the system are in their own Crystal Sphere. Why is that a >> problem at all? > >Because Crystal Spheres are dumb. I know that's petty, as i tossed out >Bruce's theory of gravity too (as mathematically, it has ramifications >that actually force the universe into collapsing fairly quickly.). > >But Crystal Spheres aren't physical. They don't seem right for Mystara, >especially as every bit of Mystaran cosmological material expresses that >Mystara is not segregated from the Universe. > It's a matter of what you want. If you think they're dumb, that really just tells me you don't like the idea of them. Okay, that's fair enough, and you can toss them out in your campaign (obviously), but would at least agree that there is no particular reason why they would be impossible for Mystara? After all, all the other worlds are supposed to be contained within one, so why not Mystara too? In that sense, Mystara is certainly not "separated from the universe", at least no more so than, say, having it exist in its own reality/pocket-plane/demi-plane as people have sometimes suggested (and not just in this thread, I mean). >> So, does that mean multi-classing shouldn't be permitted under 3e rules >> because it's 'un-Mystaran' somehow? I can well understand why players might >> want to try playing something new, and OD&D has few classes and combos to >> choose from. > >No. You missed the point. I said 3e allowed one to describe NPCs in a >better way than oD&D. > Okay. That is one reason why I don't use OD&D rules, though - not enough options! (I actually use all those PO books, though I've heavily modified the rules!) >> as myself) continue to play Mystara with 2e rules? Doesn't that sort of >> imply that there is something wrong with OD&D? > >No. I just implies that you didn't grow up with oD&D. Actually, I did! The first three years I played, we played *only* OD&D! > You see, Mystara was >my first world, oD&D my first system. Same here. > I never graduated to AD&D, partly >because I found oD&D far superior to it, and partly because Mystara wasn't >an AD&D world. >Mystaran products always seemed a higher quality than the AD&D shovelware >that coated the Hobbytown where I shopped. When Mystara was forcibly >converted to AD&D, I saw the shoddy conversion job, and the fact that >Karameikos:KoA cost three times as much as Gaz 1, contained nothing more >than Gaz 1, and was in a box the size of Champions of Mystara, which cost >$10 less. > >I know that wasn't the system's fault, but it certainly didn't make my >opinion of it any better. > Okay, I can see your point. I'm not sure about the cost, because I never bought any of the gazetteers back then (all the other guys had them) and buying them now is as expensive for me as buying the boxed sets, so I guess I can't comment on that. I would also have to agree that the Glantri boxed set was filled with lots of holes and stupid mistakes. I did think the Karameikos box was okay, though, and updated material, even added more than original, compared to the original gazetteer. There were several major problems with the 2e Mystara effort (or lack thereof), however - primarily that the game chose to focus on new 2e players, which was a huge mistake when the OD&D players were already playing a game with more complex, odd rules than 2e! By that I mean that the OD&D players were already used to game with new classes/skills/traits/whatever in myriads in each and every new book. One reason why I switched to 2e was to get away from the broken skill system in OD&D, and 2e offered clear-cut and consistent rules on that point. I mean, I can't remember how many different versions of the 'Healing' or 'Doctoring' skill I saw in the various gazetteers - each gaz seemed to add a new one. If the nation was with sly fellows, it was based on Dex, and if it was primarily wizards, it was based on Int. In short, it seemed inconsistent and broken to me, and moving to 2e fixed it. Same thing with the classes. The OD&D rules state that only elves can do the fighter/mage thing (and that's all you can do - no more option, yuck!), certainly not humans who can *never* be two classes! Until DOTE comes along and, whoops, now Foresters! I don't mind foresters, but seems like a broken engine when it contradicts itself like that. If they options are to be there, they should be so from the start. I might have stayed if the RC had come out earlier, but by then I had moved on and it was too late. - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:42:44 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: The Ends of Invention [was: The Famous Equation of Scaevola] (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Never-Ending Battle continued... The Stalker wrote lots of stuff (meta-snip) Crystal Spheres / Mystara Let's not forget a Crystal Shere does NOT have ot be a solar system. It could actually contain a whole glaaxy or universe in theory as it is really a pocket universe in terms of constituents. Inside each Crystal Sphere there could be anything from Terry Pratchett type shite to hard sci-fi or Star Trek type stuff - for example the whole Star Trek galaxy has a barrier around it - maybe it is a Crystal Sphere! Skills, Powers and Heroic Feats in Mystara Perhaps the most cogent approach to the solid state solution of rules we now have with D&D is just to pick and choose. The push from 3e is to inculcate and indoctrinate so that the (suspiciously Mystara-style) Greyhawk marketing sucks everyone in but that counts for little. Just get the books you like and use what you like. Older gamers at this table will recall that in the pioneer days of RPG there was NO 100% coverage rules system and everyone had to get outside rulebooks or wargame pamphlets or nonfiction books on Rome or whatever to cater for the new situations in the game. Arguments over editions Can I respectfully suggest that we each post one big post on this then ban the subject as a thread? It can have no successful conclusion. Let's add it to politics, religion and race as no-no topics for a civilised club... "what this subject needs is an enema" to paraphrase one of my supervillainous acquaintances. Recommended lists Comics fansites occasionally prepare detailed (really, really detailed... scary level of detail) lists of recommended reading, first appearances and so on... Might not this be a way to argue rules calls that will produce an end result we CAN refer to new Mystarans? I know with my own group of players they don't give a fig for whether it's all coming out of one book, but they prefer "TSR" rules to "made up" rules usually. We could just list all the situations we can think of (plenty of good threads there!) and end up with a more or less consensus call on what rule from what edition is best. This evolution of a precedent might also allow a more detailed, coherent and persuasive approach to generational battles on editions. Mystara for 21C I am absolutely sure, as a shopkeeper, that if Mystara or World of Mystery call it what you may came out as a D20 product it would be popular. As long as it had Dinosaurs and Knights. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:03:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Ends of Invention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Ancient One wrote: > The Never-Ending Battle continued... > We could just list all the situations we can think of (plenty > of good threads there!) and end up with a more or less consensus call = on > what rule from what edition is best. *lol* You want people to stop battling over rules systems, and then you = ask them to agree on which rule system provides the best rule for a = given situation? :) Jacob Skytte Who also wishes that this would stop, since he fails to see how this = discussion will in _any_ way change _any_thing in _any_ Mystara campaign = he will _ever_ play... _~_ scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:58:54 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if Pachydermions (AC9 Creature Catalogue page 43 and Creature Catalog page 81) have ever been in a pubilished adventure or made into a PC race? I was considering them for an adventure IMC and was looking for any other information on the race. Websites or personal ideas would be helpful as well. :-) Multizar the Mage ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:13:21 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: 3e cover art Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The cover-art for the new rules didn't help it's image either. I remember how they bragged about how cool they made the books look, and then when I looked at them I was like, "Mad Max meets D&D ???" On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: >impossible to revert to a more "off the farm" game style. They should >have called it Dungeons & Dragonball... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:20:31 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Too many rules Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I was reading some of the things people have said between 2e and 3e, and about players having to know certain sets of rules. This is one of the things I LOVE about OD&D. Players don't have to know things like feats. In fact, I try to keep my players in the dark about rules as much as possible. As far as they're concerned, they're playing a character, in a game, period. I tell them what they get to roll when they cast a spell, pretty easy. It makes their playing alot more natural. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 03:10:52 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B1790CD.99D3D1B9@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Caroletti wrote: > Thanks a lot, Mr. Corliss. Although I am in general > suspicious of > wealthy Darokinian merchants, I respect your ideas > and am not in > any way offended by your mail. 8-) Wealth, my Thyatian neighbor, is such a subjective term... I am but a simple entrepreneur. ;o) > But I have several issues with > the political aspects of 3E and of TSR's last moves, > thus the violence of this rant. Please bear with me! No problem. Rant away... > People who want to play powergames and that suffer > of a munchkin > predisposition WILL BE MORE ATTRACTED than those who > prefer > a "mature" and "roleplaying oriented" way of > playing. To be honest with you, I don't think it's a phenomenon limited to D&D. I think that new roleplaying products, as a genre, are more geared to that direction. I think, with computer games out there, that RPG's in general are drifting that way, at least from a marketing standpoint, to compete. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I think that most(though certainly not all) younger role-players prefer that style. The ideals most of us on the list profess are, from what I've seen, a "turn-off" to *most* younger gamers. I do, of course, agree that this is unfortunate. That said, I think its an inevitable evolution given the general culture. But then it may have always been that way and we're just seeing it now 'cuz we're getting older. I don't think it's necessarily a good or bad thing in the overall scheme... it just is (wow, that was kinda 'zen'). > D&D Rpg, and this is, in my humble opinion, bad. > Moreover, as I have said previously, there is the > D20 system who allows > for > modularity and "universality" even better than 3E. Maybe I'm missing something, but all the fantasy-related d20 products I've seen have been for D&D, even from other companies. And to be honest, most of them seem to be even more excessive than the WotC 3E stuff. Check out Eric Noah's site for the growing product lists. > I am not accusing anyone of being "stupid" because > they play 3E, but you all > will recognize that Mystara has little room for > dwarven mages, for > psionicism (except Savage Coast, for some), and so > on. And I cannot see why > something that was a problem with 2E (elven clerics, > e.g.) can be solved > by 3E that allows to play "elven > psionicist/monks/sorcerers". As I said, the DM can "just say no." In fact, let me recite a passage from pp. 21-22 of the 3E DMG: "It is perfectly acceptable for you to say 'In my world...' and then describe whatever changes or restrictions you feel necessary." "You're the DM, and it's your campaign. It's important, however, to make sure that the players understand the explanations behind these changes so that they don't feel restricted for no reason." As you can see, they've expressly dealt with that issue in a pretty objective manner. > The fact that 3E rules explicitly say "you can avoid > using some rules" > can be > even worse than 2E's "if something is missing you'll > need to fix it", > because > in 3E people is ENCOURAGED to play weirdos and be > powergamers. I disagree that 3E encourages that type of play. As Aaron's post so deftly pointed out, 3E's built-in balance helps quash alot of munchkinism. It's just not very practical to play the one of those ridiculous multiclass combinations. The old addage holds true, "Be careful what you wish for - it just might come true." It's sort of like instant karma for munchkins. > So I tell you again: my issue is not the rules. It's > the fact that new > players will > grow up to become munchkin, and this because of the > 3E format. So I > dislike 3E just for this. Honestly, I think munchkins will get bored w/ 3E, lose interest & move on to computer RPG's. > But what will happen > in the future? People who play that type of music > will die out. And so will > your music. Don't worry too much about the future... the quality gamers (even the young ones) will be able to see through the crap. And if you want to use music as an example, just look at last year in the music industry: The Beatles outsold the Backstreet Boys. :D > So is 3E in regard to powerplay, and unlimited > classes and races. "Who cares?", > says Mr. Corliss. I DO. Will we one day be all > 55-years old guys, on the MML? Eventually, it will be mostly older people on the list just by the very nature of the list: dedicated to a discontinued gameworld. As much as I love Mystara, it's pretty unrealistic to say that there's going to be much of a new generation of Mystara gamers. Sure, there will be a few; but the group will not likely replenish it's losses in the long run... > A last pessimistic note to the Mystara 3E Team: I > admire your will to > convert Mystara, but be sure that 99% of those who > will use it will be > people > who already knew of Mystara. Which of the new > players will give a * about > us, when we say "hey, here there are no dwarven > sorcerers and you don't > see 12 Elminsters for each nation?" Because the only > place where 3E > powerplaying will not subtract nothing from the > setting, and where any > weirdo has a place, is Forgotten Realms, the King > Setting of All > Munchkins > and the Stereotype of All Stereotype Fantasy Realms. If it makes you feel any better, 3E has pretty much used Greyhawk as its default setting - *not* FR. Now some people may have negative views of GH, but at least in my experience, GH is far closer to Mystara than FR. I'm currently playing in a 3E GH campaign and there's no munchkinism in sight. Of course, I've got a pretty good gaming group and the DM is excellent. > Sorry for the rant. I say it again: I like the D20 > idea of modernizing the game and > of giving an universal system, and it's not > important if I don't agree with > some game mechanism. But 3E is another thing. Like I said, the "official" 3E products from WotC seem to be the least munchkiny of all the d20 stuff I've seen so far. > It's a fake: presented > like universal game for serious gamers, but hinting > to all videogame players that > would otherwise shake their head: "Oooof, I must > play the same old boring > fighter. To be honest with you, the plain old human fighter is (one of) the most interesting class(es) to play in 3E (without any multiclassing). You have more feats and much more fexibilty than any other class(or race). Sure, munchkins will look at the concept and start salivating. But, just like everything else in 3E that initially appears to appeal to munchkins, when it is looked at in context it becomes very balanced. You have to choose feats wisely for them to be of any signifigance... regardless of how many you get. As I said before, I think munchkins will get bored with 3E... it focuses too much on developing your character as you go up in levels. You have to make too many decisions that have permanent consequences. I just think that munchkins will play up to a few levels and say, "Hey, I'm 3rd level and I can't just kick the crap out of everything in sight. This is lame." Anyway, I can certainly see the appeal of the traditonal ideals of RPGing. Ironically, when I came home from work tonight, my roommates had just put on The Princess Bride on DVD. Now, that's a classic in the style of a traditional high-fantasy setting. Unfortunately, I don't think that style appeals to most teenage gamers... even "back in the good old days." To paraphrase what I was saying in the previous posts, you can't really worry about the mainstream. At the risk of sounding elitist, the mainstream, even in the world of RPGing, will usually be clueless. You just have to ignore them and focus on those who are interested in a "higher level" of gaming (ie non-munchkinism). As I've said before, the few who really "get it" will see past all the hype and enjoy a game for it's true virtues. Anyway, just my two Daros worth... Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City (aka Damon Alexander Brown) ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:24:57 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA - Gone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, re: Mystara dying out in the long run, I don't think it will, although I think as far as the successors to TSR are concerned it is pretty much lost. There are quite a few people publishing stuff that slots right into Mystara - lost kingdoms of the known world, as I describe it in one of my own products. So- there most definitely will be a new generation of people playing OD&D style games, because there is something in it that is good, good enough in fact to outlast the fads. -Jonathan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 03:20:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: 3e cover art In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Angelo Bertolli wrote: > The cover-art for the new rules didn't help it's > image either. I remember > how they bragged about how cool they made the books > look, and then when I > looked at them I was like, "Mad Max meets D&D ???" Huh? Cover art? Do you mean interior art? Personally, I think the cover art on the three core rule books is *extremely* cool... the best ever. I'm referring to the imitation spell books w/ bindings and other decorations. And as far as the interior art, well, OK, it's not really my preference... I preferred the artwork of Stephen Fabian (who did most of the Gazzetteers). But then, look back at most of the interior artwork in the 1st Ed. DMG, PHB, & MM... that was pretty excessive in its day. Personally, I think most of it is just goofy now. Oh well, to each his own, I guess. Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City (aka Damon Alexander Brown) ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 03:35:30 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: Too many rules In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Angelo Bertolli wrote: > In fact, I try to keep my players in the dark about > rules as much as possible. As far as they're > concerned, they're playing a > character, in a game, period. I tell them what they > get to roll when they > cast a spell, pretty easy. It makes their playing > alot more natural. That's certainly a legitimate approach. But for a lot of players it's just not realistic. For me, when I play, I obviously know the rules pretty well, since I also DM. The same goes for one of the players in my campaign. One of the other players in both the campaign I play in and the one I DM, loves to make super-detailed characters. Ironically, they're all playable and not munchkiny. They're unique and he plays that up in game sessions. The point is that it's at least possible for some players to use the rules to enhance their characters' development as opposed to just exploiting the system. Of course, everyone in our group is a 10-20 year veterean of the game. I think that helps alot. But like I said, the other approach you mentioned is certainly feasible for some playing styles. Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City (aka Damon Alexander Brown) ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:54:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Alphatian Pantheon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is little canon information about the Alpahtians' religion and its pantheon. I think that, given the large size of that empire, and the utilitarian approach to priesthood, there would probably be many different temples and faiths, probably in competition with each other. I also believe that, while each priest would be quite zealous in his duty --no one wants to be left without spells, their rivalry would be not overt, nor excedingly violent --no priest would be really willing to die for its faith. This attitude could have allowed the creation of a number of different churches, often worshipping different aspects of the same Immortals. I'm obviously not going to describe all the possible temples in a nation of millions, so I'm going to discuss only three pantheons, that IMO would be revered through the whole empire. The Pantheon of Magic First of these pantheons is the Pantheon of Magic, a collection of Immortal Patrons for the various schools of magic. There are twelve patrons, plus the head of the Pantheon and its chief enemy, the personification of the lack of magic. Each patron of a school is also patron of a month of the year --supposedly, the month where that school is stronger. Head of the Pantheon Razud, God of Wizardry, Patron of All Magic Patrons of the Eight Schools Alphatia, Patroness of Alteration Alphamir Korys, Patron of Abjuration Cyprimir Noumena, Patron of Divination Vertmir Ixion, Patron of Invocation Sulamir Nyx, Patroness of Conjuration Nyxmir Marwdyn, Patron of Necromancy Burymir Eiryndul, Patron of Illusion Hastmir Brissard, Patron of Enchantment Islamir The Four Patrons of Elemental Magic Palartarkan, Patron of Air Magic Eimir Khoronous, Patron of Water Magic Amphimir Rathanos, Patron of Fire Magic Andrumir Kagyar, Patron of Earth Magic Sudmir The Enemy Talitha the Thief, Goddess of No Magic, Patroness of the Day of Dread Obviously, Talitha becomes Patroness of the Day of Dread only after WotI, both in HW Alphatia and in the Alphatian settlements in the Outer World. National Pantheon This is the composition of a series of national churches based in each Alphatian Kingdom. Each patron is recognized within the Imperial Church of Alphatia, but most have their own local church in their home kingdom. Head of the Panteon Alphatia & Razud, Patrons of the Empire National Patrons Alphatia, Patroness of Haven Razud, Patron of Vertiloch & Arogansa Korys, Patron of Bellissaria Eiryndul, Patron of Shiye-Lawr Ixion, Patron of Randel Nyx, Patroness of Limn Kagyar, Patron of Stoutfellow Palartarkan, Patron of Floating Ar Marwdyn, Patron of Blackheart Zirchev, Patron of Foresthome Norwold and Thotia follow different traditions, but each has a national pantheon. Note that for lesser kingdoms, patrons could be exalted beings, allowed by their patron Immortal to grant spells up to the 4th level. Obviously, a position in one of these churches is a second (or third) choice for all but the most pious priests. The enemy of the National Pantheon is Alphaks the Destroyer, in his main aspect of enemy of Alphatia. The Craft Pantheon This last Pantheon as some following among the mundane population. The priests of this pantheon are considered to have tedious but well-payed jobs. However, they aren't especially popular among the aristocracy. This Pantheon also has a rigid hierarchy, with Razud at the head, followed by Noumena and Alphatia. The Immortals are listed here in order of decreasing importance in the pantheon. Razud, Patron of Wizards Noumena, Patron of Scholars Alphatia, Patroness of Artists Ixion, Patron of Warriors Eiryndul, Patron of Jesters Kagyar, Patron of Artisans Palartarkan, Patron of Sailors Zirchev, Patron of Rangers Brissard, Patron of Merchants Khoronous, Patron of Farmers Talitha, Patroness of Thieves The Enemy Alphaks the Destroyer In the Craft Pantheon churches, Alphaks is seen in his aspect of destroyer of art and knowledge. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:07:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: An HW Nithian Pantheon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an HW Nithian pantheon, designed to avoid the use of those Egyptian Gods already present in Legends & Lore as alternate names of Mystaran Immortals. Name Nithian Name Portfolio ================================================================ Rathanos Rathanes God of Fire Osiris Osiris God of Life and Death Noumena Khufu God of Thought Pflarr Pflarr Servant of Rathanos, Patron of the Hutaakans Maat Maat Goddess of Justice Thanatos Thaton God of Death Minroth Minroth Patron of Explorers Ka Khnef or Ka Creator of the world Tarastia Thei Goddess of Justice Faunus Mendes Ram God Crakkak Sebek Crocodile God Djaea Mut Mother goddess Valerias Hathor Goddess of love, mother of the sun Ixion Her-ur God of the Sun, Horus the Great Protius Hapi God of the Nithia River The Nithian mithology is largely incoherent. Rathanes is considered the father of the gods, but then Khufu and Khnef are often depicted as equally old. Osiris, Horus the Great and Thaton are Rathanes' sons, and Hathor, Thei the Lifetaker and Maat the Lifegiver are his daughters. Three divine couples are formed (Horus-Hathor, Osiris-Maat and Thaton-Thei), but Thaton betrays and kills Osiris, who is then raised by Maat. Thei, disgusted by Thaton behaviour, chases him off the Heaven, to the Underworld, where he becomes the lord of the damned. Osiris, initially only the God of Life, takes charge of the spirits of the righteous dead, and becomes Lord of the Dead. Rathanes then decides to spawn another son to replace Thaton, but is dissuaded by Khufu, who suggests him to create a new Immortal, Pflarr, a loyal construct. Khnef, Khufu, and Rathanes form a triad of elder gods, believed to be the creators of the human being --body, mind and spirit respectively. There are many minor gods, either native (Minroth, Mendes, Hapi) or imported from the nearby populations (Mut, Sebek). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:44:26 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stone Marshall wrote: > > Does anyone know if Pachydermions (AC9 Creature Catalogue page 43 and > Creature Catalog page 81) have ever been in a pubilished adventure or made > into a PC race? I was considering them for an adventure IMC and was looking > for any other information on the race. Websites or personal ideas would be > helpful as well. :-) The only mention of Pachydermions I remember is in the (fan-made) Myoshima stuff. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:33:17 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit < a shield embalzened with the visage of an >gruisome evil entity (spice girls, my boss). > LOL... but since my dad is my boss, I'll need a pic of yours!>> i have been accused of lots of things...however cruelty does not rank among them. the open use of the visage of my boss would be worthy of the attentions of Amnesty International....or DHEC depending on his "bath day". :-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:51:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Giampaolo Agosta wrote > The only mention of Pachydermions I remember is in the (fan-made) > Myoshima stuff. What fan made Myoshima stuff? The only Myoshima stuff I know of is about=20 Rakasta not Pachydermions. Original Message: Does anyone know if Pachydermions (AC9 Creature Catalogue page 43 and=20 Creature Catalog page 81) have ever been in a pubilished adventure or made=20 into a PC race? I was considering them for an adventure IMC and was looking=20 for any other information on the race. Websites or personal ideas would be=20 helpful as well.=A0 :-) Web addresses are also helpful, Thanks!=20 Multizar the Mage ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Too many rules Angelo wrote: >This is one of the things I LOVE about OD&D. Players don't have to know >things like feats. In fact, I try to keep my players in the dark about >rules as much as possible. As far as they're concerned, they're playing a >character, in a game, period. I tell them what they get to roll when they >cast a spell, pretty easy. It makes their playing alot more natural. I tend to fall into this school of thought as well, perhaps partly due to my years as a Paranoia GM (Knowledge of the rules is treason). My players know how to roll saves, calculate their expenses and movement rates, perform skill checks, and attack enemies, but they are more than happy, it seems, to leave the more arcane elements of the rules to me. Suits me just fine. :-) Geoff, the DM known to fudge rolls for the purposes of plot development PS - Thanks for keeping the rules discussion polite! :-) -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:00:00 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Raising Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" hafnir <hafnir@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

<< In a world with over 1000 36th level mages in just one Empire
(i.e. Alphatia), you'd assume there's a ton of clerics who are at least
10th level. Hence, there are a lot of clerics who can cast "Raise Dead".
So how come anyone whose body is in reasonable shape ever has to die?
You'd think there's possibly enough Raise Dead spells to go around, at
least for those who die of unnatural causes on a day to day basis
(surely if there's a war, the clerics probably can't raise everyone
though)! I'm not sure how the actuarial tables would look in this world,
but you'd think these clerics could at least make a reasonable chunk of
the dead people come to life again. I can think of a number of reasons
why in game "Raise Dead" may not be used every day. >>
<snip>
<<I charge 10000gp per level (or generally hit die) of the dead
person to raise someone. So your 1st level guy who died needs to have
someone cough up 10000gp to raise him, while his 4th level dead buddy
needs 40000gp to come back. Of course, when the party actually acquires
their own cleric of 10th+ level, they probably shouldn't need to pay him
for the raising services, and as well it's possible whoever sends them
out on a quest may (but just as well may not) be responsible for raising
those who die upon the quest. In general, however, what's nice about
this is 10000gp per level can be pretty challenging to come up with, and
thus characters - ta da - sell magic items to cough it up. >>
<snip>
<<So I guess I'm wondering what people do in other campaigns to
address the raising issue. I'm not 100% happy with this method, but it's
so much better to me than having them frequently captured or
pickpocketed (which seem to me far more deus ex machina).>>

Well, I too charge 10,000 gp for each resurrection done by NPCs (actually they tell the PCs:  "We don't charge anything, but we are sure you will give a proper gift to repay X-immortal for having helped you in his infinite goodwill... you wouldn't risk X-immortal's wrath for angering him, now wouldn't you?" so my players don't exactly know what's the actual price, but they always figure around 10,000 seems fine).
Obviously not all churches are able to resurrect people, only the priests who live in the big cities (Selenica, Darokin, Thyatis, Mirros, Kerendas...) are of high enough level, and they usually want information regarding the dead man's past deeds and death cause before raising him. Some churches (the Church of Darokin) don't even raise their own followers, since they believe they have already fulfilled their role in this life and they are now being judged by the gods...
As long as the PCs don't have a cleric with this power among them, it is quite easy to prevent people from raising from the grave too often.

Now, the problem arises obviously when a cleric PCs reach what.. 12th level? The rule IMC is that every person's soul loses part of his vitality or karma whenever it is drawn from the dead, so the number of times a person can be raised is limited. This doesn't mean the PC loses Con points or experience, only he can be raised a number of times equal his Con score + 1/3 of the actual level; same goes with Reincarnations. And I tell you there are a couple of 30th level PCs in my group that have only 3-4 "lives" left... ;)
This is done to prevent rolling new characters every time a PC dies (it would also be a hell of a time for the DM to insert the new PCs in a reasonable way in the group), since this happens frequently at high levels, to prevent completely spoiling a campaign and to give the players the opportunity to come back and avenge their characters' demise in a proper heroic way, with strong motivations but also fearing the enemy's powers.

I don't like very much 3E's idea of lowering Xps once raised: I do see the reason behind the rule, but don't see the logical explanation for this loss... anyway, I'll adopt this method once I start the 3E campaign.. which won't happen before Fall..

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967
And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:34:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, whenever I see this thread I cannot refrain from jumping on the bandwagon, since I think I am the only person on this list to have actually run a two months long campaign in Mystaraspace (maybe Leroy did also, but I don't recall), so I can give u my first-hand input.

I assure u that converting Mystaraspace "Bruce version" to Spelljammer is easier than converting the D&D Outer Planes to Planescape cosmology.

The main points are:

Cold Void: Mystaraspace's temperatures are extremely low (some -30=B0C), in contrast to the warm temperatures other Crystal Spheres enjoy (but then, there are also some veeery freezing spheres out there also in Spelljammer)

Airless Void: Unlike the KNown Spheres, skyships traveling throu Mystaraspace do not retain an air envelope. This explains why the traffic in voidspace is so low in comparison to other spheres. A spelljamming ship entering Mystaraspace from the phlogiston simply loses its air in a number of days equal to its tonnage, period. The only way to travel and live in Mystaraspace is to build airtight vessels and cast Climate and Create Air inside them, or give the sailors Air Breathing Masks. Note however that some space monsters do not need air to live and are immune to cold (they are normal versions of Spelljammer creatures that have adapted to Mystaraspace features).

Gravity: no double sided gravity planes in Mystaraspace, another bad news for spelljamming ships. Gravity works always normally (one side's up and the reverse is down and gravity always pulls towards the "down side"), even in space (no absence of gravity like in RW)

Crystal Sphere and the Galaxy: Mystaraspace is unique in that it lies at the hub of two different dimensions, the Immortals' Multiverse properly, and the Planescape Multiverse. It exists in both realities without being doubled and as such it is both a Crystal Sphere (according to Spelljammer rules) and a "normal" solar system, part of the Glittering Way galaxy in our Prime universe. The veil that separates the two dimensions lies at the edge of Mystaraspace, and it is called the Golden Barrier (all IMC). It is a big magic field which contains the whole solar system. For spelljamming vessels it is the crystal sphere that harbors the system, for other vessels (not propelled via a spelljamming helm) it is simply a great space phenomenon.
If a ship powered by a spelljamming helm (Minor or Major Helm or similar) crosses it (no need to create a portal through it like it happens in the other crystal spheres!)  it is immediately transported in the phlogiston, mainly because of its motive power which is related to that dimension and universe. However, if a vessel using another motive power (permanent fly, dynamos of flying, furnace, psi-helm etc..) crosses it, it simply travels ahead and leaves this solar system, sailing further throughout the galaxy of this universe.
Theorically a Spelljamming powered ship could bypass the crystal sphere and sail into the rest of the galaxy, but it needs opening a portal to the other side of the Golden barrier, something which spelljamming ships don't do since they know they can enter the phlogiston without opening gates!

Some other stats: in order to reach the last planet of the solar system (Pluto, which I called Thanatos) u need 72 days taking off from Mystara. If u follow the rules, then the Golden Barrier should lie around 160 days of travel from the sun, but this would just be plain boring and impossible (no spelljamming ship would ever come to Mystara, since they finish their air capacity waaay before), so I placed it at about 80 days of travel from Mystara, about 85-90 days from the sun. (another weirdness of Mystaraspace).

I just finished the first part of a campaign that took my Master level players all across the solar system on a skyship, pursuing another flying vessel till the Golden Barrier, and I tell u it can really be funny and challenging if u arrange the encounters in a proper way... they never experienced wild magic zones on Mystara, and imagine their surprise when they were confined for three days on a moon of Uranus with wild magic effects, after crashing with their skyship and with strange beasts assaulting them.. eheheh :)

Well, hope this helps to solve the Mystaraspace D&D-AD&D dicothomy (it helped me a lot!). I am still trying to figure how to concile Planescape planes with OD&D outer planes, but that's a hell of a work so I'll prolly give up and keep my OD&D planes (and it seems from some rumors I've heard that the new 3E version of the outer planes will be closer to the OD&D cosmology rather than to Planescape!)..

however I think I am making improvements in devising a theory that explains the presence of demons (tanar'ri/Immortal lesser fiends) and devils (baatezu/no D&D counterpart) in the D&D Multiverse... basically put: demons are lesser immortal and cannot reproduce but must corrupt other species to ascend to their status, while devils are not properly immortals (much like the fairy folk), don't live in the outer planes, but can reproduce and spawn other devils. The major difference between the two is that demons are CHAOTIC to the core, while devils are lawful, altho extremely malignant and evil, and they are bent on reconquering their rightful place in the Multiverse...
Ok, I admit it's not much yet, but I'm working on it ;)

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940
Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystri= ng.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:06:56 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > impossible to revert to a more "off the farm" game style. They should > > have called it Dungeons & Dragonball... > > It may seem overpowered, but guess what - At least it's consistent. Sorry, there're tons of consistent games. D&D 3e has little to offer on that side. Actually, I think it is a crossbreed of skill-based and class-based systems, failing to preserve the good points of both (modularity and control of player's options), and instead adopting an overpowered style. > AD&D2 > can't be called that unless you are illiterate. AD&D 2e was never designed to be entirely consistent. It was designed to leave the DM (*not* the players) the possibility to add/remove parts depending on their style. However, it is entirely playable. And, if you get to the core of both AD&D and OD&D, they are exactly the same. 3e is not. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:21:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > Yes, and if you wasn't going to play Dark Sun, lots of supplement would > > become useless... but that's obvious. > > But dark sun wasn't the core cosmology of the AD&D universe either. No more than Planescape was. The core cosmology in AD&D is the names of the outer planes. > > Actually, the "obviously superior" material about space and outer planes > > is quite limited... > > It is, and I will grant you that. However, it is better to have a small, > and well-written idea than reams of paper that say nothing. Sure, but Planescape is quite good. And the "quite limited" of OD&D outer planes is not much more than the names of the planes... > > Please! Immortals aren't that powerful: their powers have limits, set by > > rules not especially different from those for mortals. And anyway, it's > > just a matter of perspective. > > An Immortal not on the prime plane is not constrained by anything. In Planescape, a Power is never constrained, except by his peers or special conditions of the Outer Planes. An Immortal has to follow the rules in the Immortal Set or WotI. With respect to mortals, an Immortal can be damaged, even killed, by a mortal. A Planescape Power cannot be damaged directly, at most it is possible to damage an avatar. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:35:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > more, and of higher quality, as far as I can see, than 3e material will > > be for some time --you see, it's going to be all rules and Forgotten > > Realms. > > And this was different from AD&D2 how? Oh yeah. It isn't. > You cannot seriously tell me that other settings got half the treatment > that FR got years go. Oh, but I don't care that they produce tons of FR stuff... they have to feed the 90% of the D&D players who want that stuff. And the other settings got enough work on them, when they were active. > At least now the powers that be have no problem with > fans writing for their dead worlds. This wasn't achieved through 3e. > > Remember, there are always the ESD. And then, PCs don't need rulebooks. > > Yep. they call it the "Player's Guide" just for kicks right? The part of the PHB a single player really needs is very limited: details of is class/race and combat mechanics. Most other things are for the DM anyway. > > Really? The skill system is exactly the same as Fuzion's, down to the > > numbers, and so are the stat bonuses (add +2). Not much of an > > innovation, I'd say. > > If you think that skills were the only innovation in 3e, then you have to > read the books again. I quoted the skill system because it uses the core mechanics, and it can be compared with skill-based systems. And since there is a single core mechanics, as you said, that single example is enough to prove the point I was making. > 3e has a simple core mechanic. Roll d20 for everything. Can't go wrong > there. Actually every skill-based system has a single die for everything, so this isn't a great innovation as well. > I never liked DMing with a pile of books and tables in front of me. Neither I do. But I don't keep piles of books when I play AD&D. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:38:58 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Ends of Invention [was: The Famous Equation ofScaevola](long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Ancient One wrote: > > Crystal Spheres / Mystara > Let's not forget a Crystal Shere does NOT have ot be a solar system. It > could actually contain a whole glaaxy or universe in theory as it is > really a pocket universe in terms of constituents. Yes, that's the solution I would use: an infinite or nearly-infinite crystal sphere. Infinite if you want to make communications available only through gates (no direct spelljamming travels), very big if you are going to do a full Mystara/Spelljammer cross. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:06:01 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stone Marshall wrote: > > Giampaolo Agosta wrote > > > The only mention of Pachydermions I remember is in the (fan-made) > > Myoshima stuff. > > What fan made Myoshima stuff? The only Myoshima stuff I know of is about > Rakasta not Pachydermions. It's a project called the "Patera Files". Here is a small excerpt. KOMPOR-THAP Location: Patera, Far Side. West of Rajahstan. Area: Approximately 262,000 sq.mi. Population: 300,000 Pachydermions. Language: Komporan. Coinage: ? Technology Level: Iron Age, Steel forged. Government Type: Hagiarchy (rule by Holy Men) > Web addresses are also helpful, Thanks! Try searching for it at the Vaults. Unfortunately, I don't remember the original address, and there isn't the name of the author on the file... Sorry! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:15:55 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: AD&D Mystara: Kits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While we are on the AD&D Mystara topic: I've uploaded a (still incomplete) guide to kits and classes in Mystara to my website. I'm not going to post it here, due mainly to lenght (10 pages, more or less), and the fact that it is relevant only to a minority of the people here (and even those probably already have their own version of this stuff). However, I'm posting a sample regarding the Five Shires, since it includes an adaptation of the Defender for a (strongly depowered) Hin Master. The complete document is at http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/mystkits.htm Five Shires ----------- Popular kits: Local Hero (all classes) Swashbuckler (all classes) Archer/Slinger (Fighter) Homesteader (Fighter) Sheriff (Fighter) Pirate (Fighter) Trader (Fighter/Thief) Smuggler (Thief) Bandit (Thief) Buccaneer (Thief) Modified kit: Hin Master (Defender Fighter) Shire Halflings may be Fighters, Thieves, or Fighter/Thieves. All Hin may take the Local Hero kit, which fits well with their high loyalty to the clan and family. Due to the piratical activities of the Shire Hin, and their curiosity and flair, many take the Swashbuckler kit. Most Hin captains are Swashbucklers, due to their inspiring leadership. Multiclassed Hin may take also the Trader kit, a very common option, especially for Hin living near the Darokin frontier. Fighters are very common, even though the Hin are usually pacific. All Halfling communities produce sharpshooters, and the Five Shires have their share of Slingers and Archers. Homesteaders are common, even though much of the land is already settled. To protect the Hin villages, Sheriffs are employed. There are five Sheriff, one for each Shire. However, each has a number of deputies, called Krondar. Finally, the most aggressive, and less glamourous, sailors take the Pirate kit. Hin Fighters may also choose to follow the path of the High Heroes, and study the magic of nature as Hin Masters. Halfling Thieves are most common in the eastern Shires, due to the proximity of the Black Eagle Barony. They usually take the Bandit or Smuggler kit. Seafaring rogues may use the Buccaneer kit. Hin Master ---------- The Hin variant of the Defender must have Neutral Good alignment and a minimum Charisma score of 13. The Hin Master progresses has a human Defender up to 8th level. Thereafter, he raises in level only for spellcasting purposes, up to 20th level. They are considered Higher Masters after reaching 18th level. They always choose the detect evil ability. Hin Masters are secretive, and are required to conceal their activities, so they do not receive reaction bonuses or penalties. They have access to the spheres of Protection, Healing, Elemental (All), Weather. The Hin Master must devote half of his non-weapon proficiencies slots to proficiencies related to nature, such as Animal Lore, Weather Sense, Orienteering, Survival. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: 3e cover art In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Angelo Bertolli wrote: > The cover-art for the new rules didn't help it's image either. I remember > how they bragged about how cool they made the books look, and then when I > looked at them I was like, "Mad Max meets D&D ???" Mad Max? Last time I looked at the book, I didn't see any biker guys and Mel Gibson. I saw a nice hardcover that imitates a well bound book from a good fantasy novel. There is absolutely nothing Max Max about it - two completely different genres and styles. You want The Thunderdome, look at the cover of the Dominion Tank Police RPG, or any one of the RIFTS books. Yeesh. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:35:51 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Auld Skald Subject: Re: Castle Defenses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I haven't been reading or posting much in the last little while -- been working on an article for the ToM and RL has been chaotic -- but this caught my interest. At 12:09 PM 5/28/01 -0700, Joe Kelly wrote: >I find most adventures are typical barricades against the generic adventuring party. But what about >a hit and tatics squad? I one of my campaign adventures, the PC's hit the hold out like a swat >team. The adventure was laid out for a sneaky entrance and exploring the house. The PC's >stormed the place like a SWAT team, shooting first and asking questions later. On top of this the >team had made Molotov cocktails and were using repeating crossbows. Needless to say the den of >thieves came to an abrupt end. The PC's were supposed to ask the leader where the hidden artifact >was, but they killed him. How do you handle overly aggressive parties? Answer 1: Overly aggressive NPC responses. Who might have been ticked off at your PCs blowing away a den of thieves? Maybe one of the major purveyors / clients of this group was a local lord? Or magic-user(s)? Or an evil cult? They couldn't have gotten /all/ of the thieves, either, since they are generally the fleeing type, and productive thieves don't just hang around the hideout all the time. This leads to lots and lots of theft, revenge and assassination attempts. This is what you do when you've let your PCs best you too easily. Payback is always a female dog. Answer 2: Better defenses. Have a look around for any of the Grimtooth's Traps books: Traps, Traps Too, Traps Fore!, and Traps Ate, plus Grimtooth's Dungeon (a hideously difficult adventure of nothing but traps and monsters that go with them). These started coming out in the 80s, but you might be able to find them in used book stores. Also, there was an article in an old Dragon magazine about fantasy fortifications taking magic, heroes and dragons into account. (Someone else mentioned this, too, I think.) For example, look at spells that are meant to breach defenses, then look at countermeasures, mundane and magical. If you lock the crossbar for a door, and have a guard there to re-lock it if it gets unlocked, a single mage can't breach the passage no matter how many Knock spells. Another example: even a high-level fighter can be nasty to mundane castle defenders, but consider if you trap him in a locked room with arrow slits and murder holes so the 0-th level defenders can just pour acid, flaming oil, etc. down on him while archers put holes into him with impuity from behind stone walls. In a thieves' den, traps, misdirection, more traps, secret doors, more traps, poison, more traps, plus some of those higher level thieves can use magic scrolls ... . The next thieves' den should incorporate more defenses, both passive and active, plus escape routes, secret passages to allow backstab attempts on people cruising through and not watching the rear, etc. Also, if you can find that Dragon article on building defenses in a magical world, you'll be set. - Auld Skald ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B18DD81.F93C9AFE@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > At least now the powers that be have no problem with > > fans writing for their dead worlds. > > This wasn't achieved through 3e. I never said it was. 10 years go, they would have sued your butt. > The part of the PHB a single player really needs is very limited: > details of is class/race and combat mechanics. Most other things are for > the DM anyway. there isn't much else in the PHB - spells aren't only for the DM. Everything in the PHB is fair game for player's knowledge. That's what it is designed for. > I quoted the skill system because it uses the core mechanics, and it can > be compared with skill-based systems. And since there is a single core > mechanics, as you said, that single example is enough to prove the point > I was making. No. The mechanic comes in many parts. One instance of a comparative skill system does not show the whole thing is flawed. It's like saying that My computer has a Soundblaster, and you say, well this old 486 has a soundblaster too, so your computer sucks. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B18D6E0.ED1DEBF7@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > (modularity and control of player's options), and instead adopting an > overpowered style. We're talking heroes here. Not some farmboy who is basically and functionally illiterate and inept. i'll grant you that 3e may seem overpowered, but the system is geared toward a more epic high fantasy style. if you want to make the game more realistic, keep the power levels of the PCs low compared to the NPCs, and award XP frugally. > AD&D 2e was never designed to be entirely consistent. Yep. And that's why it is horrible. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:46:11 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stone Marshall wrote: > Does anyone know if Pachydermions (AC9 Creature Catalogue page 43 and > Creature Catalog page 81) have ever been in a pubilished adventure or = made > into a PC race? I was considering them for an adventure IMC and was = looking > for any other information on the race. Websites or personal ideas = would be > helpful as well. :-) The only time I've ever used a Pachydermion was in an adventure I wrote = once. The Pachydermion was the keeper/guardian of an ancient library = lying on a jungle plateau that was only accessible by rope ladder, true = jungle style. I figured that Pachydermions were solitary creatures that = only met once or twice to mate or exchange knowledge. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:04:53 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM wrote: > > however I think I am making improvements in devising a theory that > explains the presence of demons (tanar'ri/Immortal lesser fiends) and > devils (baatezu/no D&D counterpart) in the D&D Multiverse. Perhaps, baatezu could be adapted to the Mystaran cosmology as a Nightmare Dimension counterpart of the Lesser Fiends. It would fit their lawful alignment. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > > This wasn't achieved through 3e. > > I never said it was. 10 years go, they would have sued your butt. I was only stating that your statement didn't bring anything to the 3e discussion. Other than that, I don't care right now. > Everything in the PHB is fair game for player's knowledge. That's what it > is designed for. Still, it is not necessary. > > I quoted the skill system because it uses the core mechanics, and it can > > be compared with skill-based systems. And since there is a single core > > mechanics, as you said, that single example is enough to prove the point > > I was making. > > No. The mechanic comes in many parts. It doesn't. It's just d20 vs DC for everything. Sorry, but you can't claim it is a single mechanics when you like it, and exactly the opposite when it doesn't suit your needs. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:49:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > (modularity and control of player's options), and instead adopting an > > overpowered style. > > We're talking heroes here. Not some farmboy who is basically and > functionally illiterate and inept. At first level, that's exactly what you should be. > if you want to make the game more realistic, keep the power levels of the > PCs low compared to the NPCs, and award XP frugally. Having overpowered PCs and NPCs as well makes the game more balanced, not more realistic. > > AD&D 2e was never designed to be entirely consistent. > > Yep. And that's why it is horrible. Nay. That's why one can modify it more easily. For all its supposed flexiblity, 3e is essentially a monolith. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:55:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM wrote: > > Ok, whenever I see this thread I cannot refrain from jumping on the > bandwagon, since I think I am the only person on this list to have > actually run a two months long campaign in Mystaraspace (maybe Leroy > did also, but I don't recall), so I can give u my first-hand input. I have run a continuous Mystara campaign since 1998 and it had Spelljamming etc. in it from day one. I didn't use the Bruce Heard stuff as I loathe it. Spelljamming works fine in Mystara IMC. It's a bit dangerous to make assumptions about who has run what on a list I would have thought. PS - there is STILL a guy out there, off the list, who has now run a campaign since 1992 with his own space stuff, "Mystaraspace" is basically for him a physical universe like our own. And to be honest, that seems far and away the best idea. It fits the Blackmoor era stuff and the early RPG world feel of the original D&D (pre Mystara name stuff) very well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:45:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Aggressive Parties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like your style!! Mortus. > I played Star Trek the roleplaying game once and ended up stealing the > starship and joining the Romulan Empire! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:20:04 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B19508C.3861E9EA@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > It doesn't. It's just d20 vs DC for everything. Sorry, but you can't > claim it is a single mechanics when you like it, and exactly the > opposite when it doesn't suit your needs. And neither can you. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:26:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B195149.987F3EB7@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > At first level, that's exactly what you should be. Untrue. Illiterate and Inept are adjectives used for people who are average, normal, and in all respects, not all that exciting, and you wouldn't want to play one in an RPG. 1st level character have at least a little training under their belt, be it through an apprenticeship, or formal learning. Your average farmhand is not a first level fighter. The farmhand who was trained by his soldier father how to wield a blade is. > Nay. That's why one can modify it more easily. For all its supposed > flexiblity, 3e is essentially a monolith. Too much choice turns a system into a hodgepodge of house rules. As someone said before, one should not need to publish a pamphlet describing how to play a game. It should be simple, to the point, and anyone can pick it up and go. Underneath that "monolith" you see is a fairly robust and easily cusomizable interface. It's like Gnome on top of Red Hat. With AD&D2e you're stuck with DOS. Ethan - with the applicable computer alliterations.. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:50:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Inevitably, The VVH Adoption Agency. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I accidentally picked up an extra copy of PC3 The Sea People recently. It's in mintish condition and still shrink wrapped (for those that care about that sort of thing). First interested email I receive gets it for $12 (s&h included in the US). Anybody? VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:22:16 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Inevitably, The VVH Adoption Agency. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not have PC3 and am very, very interestested in getting it ! :-) Just send me some info on how to pay you and I will ! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:25:18 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: Inevitably, The VVH Adoption Agency. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I do not have PC3 and am very, very interestested in getting it ! :-) Just >send me some info on how to pay you and I will ! > Well, now- this is funny. I just sent an email to you telling you somebody already claimed it and it turned out to be you! LOL I'll send you the info to your home address. Har! VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 06:01:49 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Raise Dead Addendum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I will elaborate more on my idea since some people liked it. Basically, the idea is that the cleric uses some of his/her own life force to revive the dead person. I would prefer to take away 1 point of CON because of this reason. I would say the cleric is exhausted after casting the spell and loses 1 point of constitution. There is a 50% chance that it is permanent, otherwise the cleric regains the point after 1d4 days. Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:12:22 +1000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: Pachydermions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:06 2/06/01 +0200, you wrote: >Stone Marshall wrote: >> >> Giampaolo Agosta wrote >> >> > The only mention of Pachydermions I remember is in the (fan-made) >> > Myoshima stuff. >> >> What fan made Myoshima stuff? The only Myoshima stuff I know of is about >> Rakasta not Pachydermions. > >It's a project called the "Patera Files". Here is a small excerpt. > >KOMPOR-THAP >Location: Patera, Far Side. West of Rajahstan. >Area: Approximately 262,000 sq.mi. >Population: 300,000 Pachydermions. >Language: Komporan. >Coinage: ? >Technology Level: Iron Age, Steel forged. >Government Type: Hagiarchy (rule by Holy Men) > >> Web addresses are also helpful, Thanks! the Patera fiels are at http://dnd.starflung.com/pat_proj.html >Try searching for it at the Vaults. Unfortunately, I don't remember the >original address, and there isn't the name of the author on the file... there should be, it's Andrew Theisen anyway there also seems to be other stuff in Sharon's Hollow Moon files, just use the search facility on the Vaults shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:21:32 +1000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: shawn stanley Subject: Old Photos for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James Mishler passed this along to me and I've got to say that the site looks cool, lots of nice atmospheric photos >I found the most AMAZING website that you need to pass on to the Mystara >list. It has photos from Russia in the early 1900's, scenes that, because >they were so medieval even then, look like they might be out of Karameikos, >Ethengar, or Ylaruam. And they have been digitally COLORIZED with the most >amazing results! They look like they were done yeaterday! Pass this on to >the list, please! > >http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/ shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:33:30 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Richard Andrew Walters Subject: Re: Pachydermions In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010603171219.00ad4b78@pop3.norton.antivirus> from "shawn stanley" at Jun 03, 2001 05:12:22 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's only one pachyderm worth mentioning and thats the Pachyderm Posse, now in retirement do to unforseeable circumstances! >>> Giampaolo Agosta wrote >>> >>> > The only mention of Pachydermions I remember is in the (fan-made) >>> > Myoshima stuff. >>> >>> What fan made Myoshima stuff? The only Myoshima stuff I know of is about >>> Rakasta not Pachydermions. >> >>It's a project called the "Patera Files". Here is a small excerpt. >> >>KOMPOR-THAP >>Location: Patera, Far Side. West of Rajahstan. >>Area: Approximately 262,000 sq.mi. >>Population: 300,000 Pachydermions. >>Language: Komporan. >>Coinage: ? >>Technology Level: Iron Age, Steel forged. >>Government Type: Hagiarchy (rule by Holy Men) >> >>> Web addresses are also helpful, Thanks! > >the Patera fiels are at http://dnd.starflung.com/pat_proj.html > >>Try searching for it at the Vaults. Unfortunately, I don't remember the >>original address, and there isn't the name of the author on the file... > >there should be, it's Andrew Theisen anyway > >there also seems to be other stuff in Sharon's Hollow Moon files, just use >the search facility on the Vaults > >shawn stanley >http://dnd.starflung.com > >what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me > - mightyfew, "i can't wait" > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -- Richard Walters waltersb@sfu.ca Home (604)291-6226 CSSS Vet. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 02:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If this is the case, then why can't mage's do it too? You are not describing a miraculous event channelled through the servant of a divine being, you are describing a magical operation where the operator gets nailed. Everyone seems to be missing the point that this has its basis in religion. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angelo Bertolli" To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:01 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead Addendum > I will elaborate more on my idea since some people liked it. > > Basically, the idea is that the cleric uses some of his/her own life force > to revive the dead person. I would prefer to take away 1 point of CON > because of this reason. I would say the cleric is exhausted after casting > the spell and loses 1 point of constitution. There is a 50% chance that it > is permanent, otherwise the cleric regains the point after 1d4 days. > > Angelo > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:52:45 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Mad Max Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The fact that the book does include rules and damage for high-tech weapons, along with a picture of a dwarf holding a plasma rifle doesn't help much, I say. That was just the impression I got from some of the art. I don't really remember if it was the *cover* art or not. --------------------------------------------------- Mad Max? Last time I looked at the book, I didn't see any biker guys and Mel Gibson. I saw a nice hardcover that imitates a well bound book from a good fantasy novel. There is absolutely nothing Max Max about it - two completely different genres and styles. You want The Thunderdome, look at the cover of the Dominion Tank Police RPG, or any one of the RIFTS books. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:15:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "SteelAngel" To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) > On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > At first level, that's exactly what you should be. > > Untrue. > Illiterate and Inept are adjectives used for people who are average, > normal, and in all respects, not all that exciting, and you wouldn't want > to play one in an RPG. > Why? Whilst you may not want to play one, the roleplaying possibilities of such a basic caracter are many and enjoyable. The fact that you, usually, don't remain playing such characters very long is part of the whole RPG experience. Mainly though you find the character dies, remains were they came from as the adventurers move on (either wiser and more capable or otherwise for all involved ), or become adventurers themselves. The last possibility is one of the most colourful ways of creation of character backgrounds around, by far superior to a couple of lines of background on a piece of paper and a meeting in a tavern etc. Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:17:32 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, this is not entirely true. Try removing feats or skills from > 3e/d20 (they're the same, Giulio!). My point is NOT THE RULES!!!!!!!!!! It's IMPOSSIBLE to see if one game system is better than another. Like the Ancient One said, rules discussions will not lead anywhere (like religion and politics discussions). I am just saying: 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird things. Obviously, when you write a rules set you try to make it consistent, and then it may or may not be so. I am not going to judge this. The difference from D20 and 3E is a "philosophical" difference. D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to use for you to make your own campaign world, I try to cover anything". 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and you ESPECIALLY have to use all these new powers and classes, see, you can be a dwarven wizard, you do not have level limits, you will be more powerful at lower levels..." The same thing, presented in two very different perspectives. And young gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of Munchkinism. This was not the case for AD&D. And if you didn't like something in AD&D it was much more easier to not allow your players to do it. Thus my comment "AD&D was more Mystaran than 3E". I have never expressed any preference toward 2E or 3E. I have always remained only on the "ethical" aspects of those systems. The "feeling" is very important to set things. If I say "You're really an idiot" and you don't hear the tone I am using, stripped of context, you would probably be offended. If you just threw chocolate on your new pants, and while we are both laughing I say it, there is a lot of difference, although the words are exactly the same. This is what happens to 3E in regard to D20 and 2E. It's the FEELING that has changed, and it's a "whitewashing for the masses", like Ethan said. Anyway, agree or disagree, my opinion won't change TSR. 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:21:10 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Sorry for the rant. I say it again: I like the D20 idea of modernizing the game and > > of giving an universal system, and it's not important if I don't agree with > > some game mechanism. > > Ah, ok, so what you like of d20 is the skill system, and perhaps the > homogeneous stat modifiers, and what you don't like is the class system? > [sorry if I ask, but really, d20 is 3e bar the XP chart...] > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta I like D20 "philosophically". I don't care of the rules. The difference is that 3E FORCES you to play in a certain way. D20 is more like GURPS- it says "do what you want, it's your world". 3E says "I am D&D, OBEY THE RULES!!!!". Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 04:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: The problem with 1st level characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you only have a 20% of picking pockets, and you go out and attempt to pick pockets you deserve to get caught and killed. Likewise, if you have only a 20% to hit an opponent of low skill in combat, you do not deserve to go out and fight. It is silly to think that people who do not have a reasonable chance of success would needlessly risk their lives. A first level character, in my opinion, is someone who has complete their training and should be capable of doing their respective jobs. In my game system I have accounted for all of these issues in character design by allowing people to be children or adolescents if they choose. On the other hand they can start as old aged people with extensive adventuring experience behinds them (each adventure set down along with both good and bad outcomes that can come back to haunt the character). The reason I created my own system was because D&D had so many fundamental flaws (which exist through every incarnation). Understand that I do not dislike D&D, I just find the flaws so frustrating that I made my own system, since I essentially had to do that as a ref anyway. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:34:58 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Martin Mathes Subject: to much to handle hi, wasn't there an option to get the mails in a digest form, just at the moment i'm not able to open, read and save all interesting stuff? thanks martin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:46:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > At first level, that's exactly what you should be. > > Untrue. > Illiterate and Inept are adjectives used for people who are average, > normal, and in all respects, not all that exciting, and you wouldn't want > to play one in an RPG. If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. > 1st level character have at least a little training under their belt, be > it through an apprenticeship, or formal learning. Your average farmhand is > not a first level fighter. The farmhand who was trained by his soldier > father how to wield a blade is. A little of training is different from super-hero. > Underneath that "monolith" you see is a fairly robust and easily > cusomizable interface. It's like Gnome on top of Red Hat. > > With AD&D2e you're stuck with DOS. With your metaphore, 3e is more like Windows --and that's worse than DOS :P See, a lot of pre-installed "options", which you can't remove without tinkering with the core. Also, much like Windows, you are free to customize the pointers and background, cannot easily replace the important stuff. Remember, if I want Red Hat without Gnome, I can replace it with KDE, or avoid using the graphic interface at all. If I want 3e without , it is impossible. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:28:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Pachydermions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shawn stanley wrote: > > the Patera fiels are at http://dnd.starflung.com/pat_proj.html Thanks, Shawn. > there should be, it's Andrew Theisen anyway Uh, yes, it was on the main page... I only checked the Kompor file :) However, Pachydermions are definitely interesting, as the only known native Pateran race. I was thinking of having them involved in the Damocles events in some way. And if you use PS material, Pachydermions might well be the ancestors of the Maelephants of the Nine Hells, setting a hook for the Baatorian activities on Mystara. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:35:50 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to use for you to make your own > campaign world, I try to cover anything". > 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and [..] > The same thing, presented in two very different perspectives. And young > gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of Munchkinism. Ok, I get your point (now :) ). Of course, D20 has a different presentation style, as it is aimed to a different audience --there's no reason why D20 should impose itself as a fixed set, since it is aimed to game designers. However, remember that D20 also says that you must buy 3e PHB to be able to play (D20 products cannot have info on level progression, for example). > This was not the case for AD&D. And if you didn't like something in AD&D > it was much more easier to not allow your players to do it. Thus my > comment "AD&D was more Mystaran than 3E". Exactly. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles FromX-Mozilla-Status: 0009 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0801 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 FCC: /E|/Programmi/Netscape/Users/agathokles/mail/Sent Message-ID: <3B1A3190.EC92F498@libero.it> Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 14:46:08 +0200 From: Agathokles X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mystara RPG Discussion Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > At first level, that's exactly what you should be. > > Untrue. > Illiterate and Inept are adjectives used for people who are average, > normal, and in all respects, not all that exciting, and you wouldn't want > to play one in an RPG. If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. > 1st level character have at least a little training under their belt, be > it through an apprenticeship, or formal learning. Your average farmhand is > not a first level fighter. The farmhand who was trained by his soldier > father how to wield a blade is. A little of training is different from super-hero. > Underneath that "monolith" you see is a fairly robust and easily > cusomizable interface. It's like Gnome on top of Red Hat. > > With AD&D2e you're stuck with DOS. With your metaphore, 3e is more like Windows --and that's worse than DOS :P See, a lot of pre-installed "options", which you can't remove without tinkering with the core. Also, much like Windows, you are free to customize the pointers and background, cannot easily replace the important stuff. Remember, if I want Red Hat without Gnome, I can replace it with KDE, or avoid using the graphic interface at all. If I want 3e without , it is impossible. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agoX-Mozilla-Status: 0009tp://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:28:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's not true, the Star Wars book has details about every aspect of the game, including level progressions. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Agathokles" To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:35 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? > Caroletti wrote: > > > > D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to use for you to make your own > > campaign world, I try to cover anything". > > 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and > [..] > > The same thing, presented in two very different perspectives. And young > > gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of Munchkinism. > > Ok, I get your point (now :) ). Of course, D20 has a different > presentation style, as it is aimed to a different audience --there's no > reason why D20 should impose itself as a fixed set, since it is aimed to > game designers. > However, remember that D20 also says that you must buy 3e PHB to be able > to play (D20 products cannot have info on level progression, for > example). > > > This was not the case for AD&D. And if you didn't like something in AD&D > > it was much more easier to not allow your players to do it. Thus my > > comment "AD&D was more Mystaran than 3E". > > Exactly. > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > agosta@elet.polimi.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > FromX-Mozilla-Status: 0009 2001 > X-Mozilla-Status: 0801 > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > FCC: /E|/Programmi/Netscape/Users/agathokles/mail/Sent > Message-ID: <3B1A3190.EC92F498@libero.it> > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 14:46:08 +0200 > From: Agathokles > X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Mystara RPG Discussion > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) > References: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > SteelAngel wrote: > > > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > > > > > At first level, that's exactly what you should be. > > > > Untrue. > > Illiterate and Inept are adjectives used for people who are average, > > normal, and in all respects, not all that exciting, and you wouldn't want > > to play one in an RPG. > > If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at > higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. > > > 1st level character have at least a little training under their belt, be > > it through an apprenticeship, or formal learning. Your average farmhand is > > not a first level fighter. The farmhand who was trained by his soldier > > father how to wield a blade is. > > A little of training is different from super-hero. > > > Underneath that "monolith" you see is a fairly robust and easily > > cusomizable interface. It's like Gnome on top of Red Hat. > > > > With AD&D2e you're stuck with DOS. > > With your metaphore, 3e is more like Windows --and that's worse than DOS > :P > See, a lot of pre-installed "options", which you can't remove without > tinkering with the core. Also, much like Windows, you are free to > customize the pointers and background, cannot easily replace the > important stuff. > > Remember, if I want Red Hat without Gnome, I can replace it with KDE, or > avoid using the graphic interface at all. If I want 3e without choice feature here>, it is impossible. > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > agoX-Mozilla-Status: 0009tp://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:05:27 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: Rules: Creature Crucible: Werecreatures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, has anyone got any NPC or PC werecreatures, suitable for inclusion as NPCs in my Threshold site and my campaign? I am running out of puff monster-wise at present and I figure a change is as good as a rest - ie if someone else has a few classics to share, I would be almost infinitely obliged for planck time - or normally obliged for the time between the time of receipt and when I pay them back... :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:00:12 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? In-Reply-To: <06e101c0ec31$0590c420$8b39abd0@tds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >That's not true, the Star Wars book has details about every aspect of the >game, including level progressions. > That would be because it's also a WotC product. Wasn't that obvious? VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:17:32 +0200 Caroletti writes: > D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to use for you to make > your own > campaign world, I try to cover anything". > > 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and > you ESPECIALLY have to use all these new powers and classes, see, > you > can be a dwarven wizard, you do not have level limits, you will be > more > powerful at lower levels..." Umm... no. Everything you are complaining about: fast level progressions, no class/level limits, higher powered characters at lower levels, etc. is _part of the d20 system_! That doesn't mean that individual DMs and products can't restrict some of this, but you've already rejected the idea that it's better to start from a whole range of options and then limit then, rather than saying "I AM D&D! YOU CANNOT PLAY ANYTHING BUT THESE RACE/CLASS COMBINATIONS!" and leave anyone who thinks otherwise out in the dark. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 01:22:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not that all this is not fascinating, (but it's not) however isn't it now well and truly off any sort of Mystara topic? And we'll have fun fun fun fun fun till the topic is ki-ll-ed ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:28:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has g... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/2001 4:16:10 AM Central Daylight Time, scarole@TIN.IT writes: > I am just saying: > 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird > things. I suppose its better than relying on people that still swear by a product that is out of print to support the company. I swear, they should just put out all the old modules, the old blue and red sets and ditch this whole newfangled idea. Of course, we all have those and no one else wants them- so I guess Hasbro actually would be better off putting everyone into the Pokemon division and letting the game quietly die. Maybe I'll take up sports again, I'm not dead yet I guess. Of course, everyone I play with has the new rules and not one of them is a munchkin or a teenager. Personally I think OD&D was a simpler read, which would make it more likely as aimed to teenagers on the face of it. AD&D was a rather complex read though, and I think its a measure of the benefits of the 3E system that whenever my players or I have a beef with something in the new book or a question we can generally find an answer or a reason laid out quickly and rationally for us to find. The only consistently hard thing to find in the PHB seems to be the new encumberance chart, but thats because I think they put it in the wrong place and all my players look forever in the wrong place before I show them each time. But I guess since 3E addressed competently most of my problems with AD&D and fixed most of the porblems I've had with the game over the years I must be a munchkin. I'm definitely within the target audience, because I think its the best thing since sliced meat. It is nice to know that I can be a teenager now again though, now I can leer at younger women guilt free again! Please, go on...Since you seem to know the secret agenda of dumbing down our hobby that I haven't seen from anyone actually employed by WOTC you must have incredible sources indeed to know this diabolical plot to insert 15 year olds into all of our games! JMH PS Come on, there aren't weird characters to be played in Mystara? Are you kidding? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:32:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: First Pachydermions now Gakaraks :-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the info on Pachydermions everyone! I'm going to start my own civilizations on Davinia and they are an exellent choice for my PC's to run into *insert evil laugh*. :-) Now I was wondering if anyone had information on Gakaraks, as before webpage links would be helpful. Multizar the Mage (Course what no one realizes is that I start these threads to get everyone to quit griping about the merits of thier game system...oops I'm still typing!) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:33:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: Old Photos for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/2001 2:29:40 AM Central Daylight Time, stanles@ALPHALINK.COM.AU writes: > James Mishler passed this along to me and I've got to say that the site > looks cool, lots of nice atmospheric photos God thats beautiful, thanks for the great link! Its really hard to find good pictures of architecture sometimes that doesn't display its telltale modern source. JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:25:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Niall=20Hosking?= Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? In-Reply-To: <06e101c0ec31$0590c420$8b39abd0@tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- George Hrabovsky wrote: > That's not true, the Star Wars book has details > about every aspect of the > game, including level progressions. You've missed the point. WotC *own* the d20 Game licence (having created it) so they can *publish* everything in it - and since they publish Star Wars, it can contain all the level prgression details, etc. All other publishers have to contain stripped-down rules, and then reference a WotC book such as the PHB (although you could concievably use SW for SF games). Check out the details for yourself at: http://www.wizards.com/D20/main.asp?x=welcome,3 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Agathokles" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:35 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] I know that 3E and D20 are > the same,is there anybody > who has got my point?? > > > > Caroletti wrote: > > > > > > D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to > use for you to make your > own > > > campaign world, I try to cover anything". > > > 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST > use me, and > > [..] > > > The same thing, presented in two very different > perspectives. And young > > > gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of > Munchkinism. > > > > Ok, I get your point (now :) ). Of course, D20 has > a different > > presentation style, as it is aimed to a different > audience --there's no > > reason why D20 should impose itself as a fixed > set, since it is aimed to > > game designers. > > However, remember that D20 also says that you must > buy 3e PHB to be able > > to play (D20 products cannot have info on level > progression, for > > example). > > ===== -- Niall Hosking talmyr@yahoo.com "Practice random kindess and senseless acts of beauty" ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:42:47 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/2001 8:24:29 AM Central Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at > higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. If you want farmhands you could always start with the Commoner class from the DMG. Wizards without spells, that would be fun fighting off those orcs for a few characters. Then you could go back to the farm, if the orcs haven't burnt it down for trying to be an adventurer. It would be pretty easy. I've already had a player play a commoner for his first level. I think he was a carpenter, a mediocre one before he died. Very heroic and fun, an interesting experiment. Definitely possible though. JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 02:01:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Heard wrote: > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 8:24:29 AM Central Daylight Time, > agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > > > If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at > > higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. > > If you want farmhands you could always start with the Commoner class from the > DMG. Wizards without spells, that would be fun fighting off those orcs for a > few characters. Then you could go back to the farm, if the orcs haven't burnt > it down for trying to be an adventurer. It would be pretty easy. I've already > had a player play a commoner for his first level. I think he was a carpenter, > a mediocre one before he died. Very heroic and fun, an interesting > experiment. Definitely possible though. Despite the crazy levels and powers my players often end up with, they must all, without exception in the ordinary game, start as level 0, with an xp debt to pay off to then be level 1 with 0 xp. Works like a charm. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:28:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/2001 10:58:51 AM Central Daylight Time, greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU writes: > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 8:24:29 AM Central Daylight Time, > > agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > > > > > If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at > > > higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. > > > > If you want farmhands you could always start with the Commoner class from > the > > DMG. Wizards without spells, that would be fun fighting off those orcs > for a > > few characters. Then you could go back to the farm, if the orcs haven't > burnt > > it down for trying to be an adventurer. It would be pretty easy. I've > already > > had a player play a commoner for his first level. I think he was a > carpenter, > > a mediocre one before he died. Very heroic and fun, an interesting > > experiment. Definitely possible though. > > Despite the crazy levels and powers my players often end up with, they > must all, without exception in the ordinary game, start as level 0, with > an xp debt to pay off to then be level 1 with 0 xp. Works like a charm. And since there is no 0 level in 3E that would translate to Commoner 1. It doesn't sound much like my cup of tea, but everyone's entitled to a flavor. JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:43:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has g... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please, go on...Since you seem to know the secret agenda of dumbing down our > hobby that I haven't seen from anyone actually employed by WOTC you must have > incredible sources indeed to know this diabolical plot to insert 15 year olds > into all of our games! > > JMH > > PS Come on, there aren't weird characters to be played in Mystara? Are you > kidding? I didn't offend anyone with my posts, but it seems that others here on the list think it differently. I have several times said that I don't care about the rules, and that I am NOT complaining about modernization of the rules. I refer you to my earlier posts. However, I admit that this ongoing thread may have been annoying, and I apologize for that. But one thing is to say it like the Ancient One, another is offending me with this mail, and putting in my mouth things I NEVER said. Anyway, I will say it again (sorry for capitalizing): I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE RULES SYSTEM NOR AM I SAYING THAT THOSE WHO PLAY IT ARE DUMB I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT THE WAY IT IS PRESENTED THE WAY IT IS PRESENTED ENCOURAGES MUNCHKINISM A GOOD PLAYER WILL MAKE A GOOD GAME OF EVERY SYSTEM Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:51:44 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Last post on the Endless Debate of Scaevola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Considering that I am obviously inable to explain my point, this will be the last attempt. 8-) > Everything you are complaining about: fast level progressions, no > class/level limits, higher powered characters at lower levels, etc. is > _part of the d20 system_! Yes, but one thing is to label it D20 and another D&D. > That doesn't mean that individual DMs and > products can't restrict some of this, but you've already rejected the > idea that it's better to start from a whole range of options and then > limit then, rather than saying "I AM D&D! YOU CANNOT PLAY ANYTHING BUT > THESE RACE/CLASS COMBINATIONS!" and leave anyone who thinks otherwise out > in the dark. Hmm...fact is, it's the opposite that's happening. I remember when 3E came out. There was a good number of listmembers that begun to write that "we have to find a way to explain why before 1016 there were no dwarven wizards, but after 1016 (when 3E is born) there are. Maybe we could say that after the Day of Dread things changed but people noticed just now." I remember this. Don't you? The reason for this was that some guys of the list said "With 3E Mystara is out, because no-one will come to play to a world where dwarves can't be wizards, when a player sees this option in the PHB" I may be wrong. If somebody else remembers this, feel free to e-mail me. By the way, I suggest that those who are still interested in the debate e-mail me personally, because we are overflowing the list with messages that are becoming less and less interesting (and I have seen some nerves breaking, too). I apologize for any problem I may have caused. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:57:53 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Heard wrote: > > If you want farmhands you could always start with the Commoner class from the > DMG. You could, but they would be all the same. The level of detail at off-the-farm level is near to null. Also, Commoner is an *NPC* class. If I have to bend the rules to play a sane-level character, than why change system? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 19:17:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Agathokles Subject: Re: First Pachydermions now Gakaraks :-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stone Marshall wrote: > > Thanks for all the info on Pachydermions everyone! I'm going to start my own > civilizations on Davinia and they are an exellent choice for my PC's to run > into *insert evil laugh*. :-) Now I was wondering if anyone had information > on Gakaraks, as before webpage links would be helpful. Ok, Gakarak appear on DA3, City of the Gods, so they've been around for quite a long time. Actually, they are said to have been among the first creatures on the Prime Plane. They seem to be like the Ent or Uhorn of the "Lord of the Ring". They are quite appropriate to Davania, IMO, since that's the place where the ancient forests where the elves lived were. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Why I like 3e for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi everyone, Gee there have been a lot of sparks over the rule systems thing! I have to say I think some people have a little too much personally invested in their opinion because I see some of what I consider the most trivial points being brought up in debate. As an OD&D --> 3e convert I thought I'd try to explain why I like 3e for my Mystara campaign. I played OD&D because it was easier since Mystara was created in OD&D terms, and because I found AD&D 2e too complex and chaotic for the amount of added realism it supposedly offered. The rules were, to me, inconsistent, scattered around in crazy tables, and not intuitive. Gee, just thinking about the 2e rules for punching attacks makes me cringe! At the same time, I thought I'd like something a bit more flavorful. I tried the Armor Value rules from Thyatis, Weapon Mastery, and many other things OD&D had to offer, along with some imported 2e rules. In most cases I found that the rules were either not well-balanced or (most often) not worth the time and trouble for the amount of added fun. Before 3e, the last thing I tried was using Combat and Tactics. Why? Because I found OD&D combats to be too abstract and devoid of tactics to be of great interest. I'm not a combat fiend, mind you. In fact, many of my sessions take place with NO combat at all in them. Rather, I prefer to have fewer combats, but when they take place, to have them involve unusual battlefields, tactics, obstacles, or circumstances. Some things from Combat and Tactics I liked, for instance attacks of opportunity. Others were not worth a damn to me, like fatigue rules and retreats (who wants to count points of action toward fatigue when you know 90% of battles are too short for it to matter? who wants to keep track of who got hit without hitting their attacker in turn just to determine whether someone can push the other guy back 5' feet at the end of the round?) Ick. When I saw the rumors of 3e, I was surprised because it looked to me like the new version had a degree of simplicity like OD&D (for instance simple modifier tables for ability scores) but also more options like C&T combat rules (simplified, mind you). No, I don't like the fact that the demihumans are modeled after Greyhawk, but I find it easy enough to create my own variants (as is done for Forgotten Realms and other settings, so why can't I do it for Mystaran elves (I have)). No I don't care for over a dozen types of armor, so I just omit things other than what there was in OD&D (and thus Mystara, before conversion). My Mystara doesn't have composite bows, so I don't use them. I certainly don't want dwarven wizards in my Mystara, but does that bother me a wit about 3e? Certainly not! I expect the ruleset to account for a broad array of campaign styles, and I have no problem with others having dwarven wizards. In my Mystara, however, they don't exist, period. The fact that the rules can handle it is in no way a liability; it's simply irrelevant. I find it ludicrous that anyone who was going to play in a campaign of mine would try and tell me that they can play something I say doesn't exist, just because it's in the book. If that becomes a problem, it's a problem with the prospective player, not the rules! So I told my players this time that they could play a multiclassed fighter/sorceror (Callarii elf). Or a human (fighter, wizard, rogue, or cleric). Period. This is for a Karameikos campaign and that's what I wanted to work with. No one had a problem with this. Instead, having characters balanced in such a way that they are at the same level of power at each experience level is a great boon, and makes much more sense to me than the 2e (or OD&D!) method where classes advance at different rates and are more or less powerful than their peers at certain levels. I prefer having demihumans and humans balanced from the outset than relying on level limits or slower advancement to do so. I don't think characters are excessively powerful at 1st level under 3e, and while I think the default advancement rate is way too fast; so what? I don't have a problem with the qualitative system for advancement, just the quantitative levels. So, as the 3e DMG suggests, I just slow advancement down. Where's the problem? I like the fact that I can easily intuit many rules because I can extrapolate from what I remember, and if I need to look it up, I usually have a good hypothesis of where to look or what the possible answers will be, because of the unified system. I like the fact that there are just 3 types of saving throws, and it's almost always obvious which to use. I like the clear rules on what sorts of bonuses stack up and which don't. I like the initiative system (I hated the idea on principle until we tried it!), which makes up the time for more tactical fighting by reducing die-rolling. I like simple, sensible rules for what happens when you're shaken, panicked, fatigued, exhausted. I like the exhautive explanation of what happens to turned undead. All sorts of eventualities that OD&D would leave to me and that 2e would deal with in an inconsisted way (if at all). Anyway, I've gone on long enough. I'm just trying to say that I think 3e represents a nice medium between the simplicity of OD&D and the complexity of 2e, but with much more consistency than either. My main problems with 3e turn out to be things I can simply throw out or ignore without changing anything else (e.g. alignment, certain race-class combos, certain armor and weapon types, multimultimulticlassing, fast advancement). My biggest problem, at this point is that while I like feats, I find it takes longer to create NPCs because I have to think about what feats are best for them to have, but I can deal with that. Magus Coeruleus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:39:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Why I like 3e for Mystara In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010603103643.00c4f780@cogsci.ucsd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 3 Jun 2001, at 11:10, David S. Leland wrote: > Hi everyone, > Gee there have been a lot of sparks over the rule systems thing! I have > to say I think some people have a little too much personally invested in > their opinion because I see some of what I consider the most trivial points > being brought up in debate. > As an OD&D --> 3e convert I thought I'd try to explain why I like 3e for > my Mystara campaign. [...big sniparoonie to save bandwidth..] > I like the fact that I can easily intuit many rules because I can > extrapolate from what I remember, and if I need to look it up, I usually > have a good hypothesis of where to look or what the possible answers will > be, because of the unified system. I like the fact that there are just 3 > types of saving throws, and it's almost always obvious which to use. I > like the clear rules on what sorts of bonuses stack up and which don't. I > like the initiative system (I hated the idea on principle until we tried > it!), which makes up the time for more tactical fighting by reducing > die-rolling. I like simple, sensible rules for what happens when you're > shaken, panicked, fatigued, exhausted. I like the exhautive explanation of > what happens to turned undead. All sorts of eventualities that OD&D would > leave to me and that 2e would deal with in an inconsisted way (if at all). > Anyway, I've gone on long enough. I'm just trying to say that I think 3e > represents a nice medium between the simplicity of OD&D and the complexity > of 2e, but with much more consistency than either. My main problems with > 3e turn out to be things I can simply throw out or ignore without changing > anything else (e.g. alignment, certain race-class combos, certain armor and > weapon types, multimultimulticlassing, fast advancement). My biggest > problem, at this point is that while I like feats, I find it takes longer > to create NPCs because I have to think about what feats are best for them > to have, but I can deal with that. While I generally avoid sending out "Me Too" posts, after all the many days of discussion regarding munchkinism and 3E, I just had to leave in the points David L. made that I /really/ agreed with, and pipe in with with a hearty, and well meant: "Yeah, what he said!" Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Benevolent Despot of the Mystara 3E Project M3E Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:32:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: virus warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please ignore this email it is a hoax! This was our notification from our = Systems admin at my work: There is a virus hoax circulating via email this morning. The message = tells you to delete a particular file on your C: drive (Sulfnbk.exe from = C:\Windows\Command). Please don't do that. There's nothing to it. It's = just someone with too much time on their hands, wasting ours. If you = happen to have done it, there's no real harm done, but contact Systems to = get the file re-installed.=20 >>> jobo@EIRCOM.NET 05/30/01 02:36PM >>> Hi everybody, I got this warning in the mail, i followed the instructions and found the file exists, i dont know where it originated, but i suggest you all = comply. URGENT I'VE FOUND THIS VIRUS ON MY COMPUTER - CHECK YOURS IMMEDIATELY BY = FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS. Mick Hanly "Glendine", Tawnies Upper, Clonakilty, West Cork, Ireland. 353-23-34824 glendine@eircom.net=20 www.glendine.com=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: paul.whittington To: John Montgomery ; Patricia Jemison ; Marie Hanly ; Clive Wilmont ; = Dave & Liz McCullough ; Jennifer Lee Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:53 PM Subject: URGENT URGENT URGENT URGENT URGENT URGENT hi folks .... you are going to love me !!!! I got this e mail today and have followed the procedures laid down please check your computer in case you also have it yours Paul I HAVE COPIED THIS E-MAIL RATHER THAN FORWARD IT ...... JUST IN CASE IT WAS ON MY COMPUTER FROM ABOUT THE 23 RD APRIL AS SENT TO ME..........I did find the virus on my computer and deleted it. I now know it has been there since 16th February. I found this on my computer... please follow the directions and remove it from yours TODAY!!!!!!! It was brought to my attention yesterday that a virus was on all of our computers here at work. I do not know how long it has been on our computers, but Virus software can not detect it. It will not become active until June 1, 2001, at that point it will become active and will be to late. It wipes out all files and folders on the hard drive. This virus travels thru E-mail and migrates to the 'C:\windows\command' folder. To find it and get rid of it off of your computer, do the following. Go to the "START" button. Go to "FIND" or "SEARCH" Go to "FILES & FOLDERS" Make sure the find box is searching the "C:" drive. Type in; SULFNBK.EXE Begin search. If it finds it, highlight it. Go to 'File' and delete it. Close the find Dialog box Open the Recycle Bin Find the file and delete it from the Recycle bin You should be safe. The bad part is: You need to contact everyone you have sent ANY E-mail to in the past few months. I do not know how long this has been on our computers. Two computers at Midlands Tech. have been found with this virus on it. One I had sent E-mail to, one I have not. DO NOT RELY ON YOUR ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE. McAFEE NOR NORTON CAN DETECT IT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT BECOME A VIRUS UNTIL JUNE 1ST. = IT WILL BE TO LATE THEN. WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT OPEN THE FILE!!! Rather than forwarding the warning I received, I have recopied it, just in case it contains a virus itself. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Houses of Darokin: Franich House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well... this is a _wee_ bit late. But better late than never, no? Toney House is coming soon (honest!). Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ A Brief History of Franich House Franich House is the youngest of the Great Houses of Darokin, founded only 63 years ago in 947 AC. As such, it's history is the shortest. It's founder was Rarold Franich, an adventurer who settled in Darokin City towards the end of his life. However it was his son, Arturo, who forged the House into what it is today by buying out or merging with a number of his associates, who represented a wide range of businesses. Franich became a great House in 973 AC, only fifteen years after Arturo took over the House. Since then, though Franich House does not control any sector of the Darokinian economy, there is not an industry in which Franich House has not interested itself in, however minor that participation may be. Franich House also struggles to keep itself clear of the often treacherous politics in the Inner Council, though its efforts are mostly futile. Franich House Assets As mentioned above, Franich House mainitains at least a small piece of almost every market in Darokin. However, it is not majorly involved in forgein trade, and it recently reduced the amount of trade it did with the Atruaghin Clans. A little known fact is that Franich House holds a controlling interest in nearly all of Darokin's banks. Franich House Relations Al-Azrad House: Neutral verging on Friendly. Franich House has financed several Al-Azrad ventures. Corun House: Neutral verging on Friendly. The heads of Franich and Corun Houses are good friends, though any claims that the relationship is more intimate are denied by both Houses. Hallonica House: Neutral. Both Houses are more than happy to leave the other alone. Linton House: Neutral verging on Hostile. Linton House sees Franich as nothing but a newcomer that's gotten too big for it's briches. Franich, as an ally of Mauntea House, has no great love for the Lintons either. Mauntea House: Friendly. Franich is a political ally of Mauntea House, and cast the deciding vote in favor of Corwyn in his election as Chancellor. Pennydown House: Friendly. Though Pennydown's political stance is often more extreme than Franich's, the two Houses recognize that they have much in common and often cooperate on those matters of mutual interest. Toney House: Hostile. Toney House has acquired information on some tax evasion on Franich House's part, and has used this knowledge to blackmail Franich into nearly eliminating it's trade with the Atruaghin Clans, giving Toney a virtual monopoly in that market. Umbarth House: Neutral. Umbarth and Franich Houses have no real relations with each other. Franich House Personalities Arturo Franich (3rd level fighter/13th level merchant, LG) Arturo took over Franich House when he was just under twenty years old, and has nearly single handedly transformed Franich into a Great House. He is now 51 years old, and has white hair and green eyes. He loved his wife dearly, and was devestated when she died ten years ago. In person, Arturo is very reserved, talking freely only with his closest friends. An aura of sadness hangs over him, and in the past ten years he has spent less and less of his time managing the affairs of Franich House. Rarold Franich (1st level fighter/1st level merchant, CN) Rarold is named after the founder of Franich House, and looks much like his father did in his youth, having blond hair and green eyes. However, the similarity between him and his father is only skin deep. Rarold has no interest in running Franich House. He spends much of his time in Darokin's less reputable inns and taverns, making the gamblers of Darokin City much richer. Lillana Cranor (4th level thief/8th level merchant, N) With Rarold completely incapable and Arturo slowly loosing interest, most of the responsibility for Franich House's day to day operations has fallen on this young woman. She is extremely capable, and is well liked by the other employees. Unfortunately for Franich House, Lillana is less than scrupulous in her business dealings. She was responsible for the tax evasion that gave Toney House a hold on Franich, though she managed to put blame for that disater on one of her subordinates. She is also skimming a small but still significant ammount from Franich House's income, and recently used some of this money to buy herself a new mansion in the gold class quarter of Darokin City. Lillana has recently begun to show an interest in Rarold, no doubt to secure her control over Franich House. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:36:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Ways to get rid of too many magic items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's an idea: the PC's are hired to remove a meteorite from inside a cavern, (it is = partly visible sticking out of the rock. Anyway as the PC's work to get it = out, the magical ore of the meteorite, is actually a magical draining ore. = So by the time the adventurers have it out all magical items are drained = dead! :) JK Wolf >>> hersh67@BELLATLANTIC.NET 05/31/01 10:03PM >>> "David S. Leland" wrote: > Great story! On a tangential note, I like the change in 3e where a ring = of regeneration will only heal damage taken while you were wearing the = ring. This means you can't just pass the ring around and heal everyone. = If I ever introduce a ring of regeneration in my campaign, I think I'll = add a curse-like side effect: after wearing the ring for an extended = duration, a player will start to take on negative troll-like characteristic= s, e.g. slightly rubbery skin with warts (penalty to Charisma, anyone?), = perhaps a penalty to Intelligence after a long while. The effects will = fade a few weeks after removing the ring, but in the meantime, the person = will have a reduced natural healing rate and perhaps a temporary Constituti= on penalty as their body goes through "withdrawal," having relied so much = on the ring to heal them that its natural ability to repair itself is = impaired. I hearby nominate you for the "Unusually Cruel and Ingeneous DM" award. = Let it never be said that no good deed goes unpunished! A very well thought out counter balance it is. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:04:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pretty poor Immortals, I say. Also, on the subject of 18/**? Come on. If that isn't a stupid hack of a game mechanic I don't know what is. Whole numbers people! There isn't "degrees of 18" otherwise 18 loses its meaning. IMC we go up to a strength of 20 (forget the 18 crap) and Immortals still = remain at level 36 even though we play 2E which means Immortals are gods? = Wow, that's a shock! lol,lol :) JK Wolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As mentioned before I have put the Drow in my world and have added the = Scro and Thri-keen, not to mention Wolfen, and whatever else I can find = that is cool. It's all just a matter of making it fit! JK Wolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Kelly wrote: > > Pretty poor Immortals, I say. Also, on the subject of 18/**? Come on. If > that isn't a stupid hack of a game mechanic I don't know what is. Whole > numbers people! There isn't "degrees of 18" otherwise 18 loses its > meaning. > > IMC we go up to a strength of 20 (forget the 18 crap) and Immortals still remain at level 36 even though we play 2E which means Immortals are gods? Wow, that's a shock! lol,lol > > :) JK Wolf In fact the 18 Strength explosion of detail is more realistic. There should be similar explosions at about 11 and 34 as well, to reflect real life biomechanics and plateaux of ability. Not that it really matters. In the Immortals list I prepared I just adjusted downwards from the Hierarchs assuming they are 100 all more or less for stats then giving the primary statistic or statistics for the greater Immortals an adjustment with the lesser Immortals having statistics between roughly 17 and 30 to reflect their near-godlike powers but alsl reflecting their inferiority to the "Big Guys". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:28:07 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: James Heard Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:53:11 AM Central Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > James Heard wrote: > > > > If you want farmhands you could always start with the Commoner class from > the > > DMG. > > You could, but they would be all the same. The level of detail at > off-the-farm level is near to null. Also, Commoner is an *NPC* class. If > I have to bend the rules to play a sane-level character, than why change > system? > Not in 3E, they'd all look different at Com1. They'd just have a d4 HD and rather awful saves and attack bonuses. They'd still get to allocate skills and feats like everyone else, they'd just have to put them in things that might make them useful rather than things that would make them fun. They're only in the NPC section of the DMG because WOTC decided that no one would want to play one voluntarily and therefore they didn't belong in the PHB. They don't make awful characters in 3E, they just make boring ones from strictly the numbers. JMH ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mad Max In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Angelo Bertolli wrote: > The fact that the book does include rules and damage for high-tech weapons, > along with a picture of a dwarf holding a plasma rifle doesn't help much, I > say. What books are you reading? The DMG gives ideas on how to deal with a high tech world if you want to make it, or maybe bring your characters there as an adventure. A single picture (pg 162 of the DMG) of a dwarf holding what could be a rifle of some sort does _NOT_ make the game into some sort of post-apoclyptic world. Jeez. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? In-Reply-To: <3B1A00AC.6F4C1A5E@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Caroletti wrote: > 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird > things. Wow. And I thought I was biased. I love 3e. I have _never_ been inclined to munchkinism (short of one campaign, but it was designed to be silly powerful). > 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and > you ESPECIALLY have to use all these new powers and classes, see, you > can be a dwarven wizard, you do not have level limits, you will be more > powerful at lower levels..." No. Not at all! 3e allows the DM to easily say "not in my game". You can restrict classes as you see fit, or open up classes as you see fit. NO OTHER xD&D prodct has allowed such an open structure without either a supplement or the DM having to re-write stats. > The same thing, presented in two very different perspectives. And young > gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of Munchkinism. As most young players do. Then they grow up. > This was not the case for AD&D. And if you didn't like something in AD&D > it was much more easier to not allow your players to do it. Thus my > comment "AD&D was more Mystaran than 3E". Easier how? There is no system more flexible in multiclassing than 3e. AD&D has limits on multiclasses based on race, level limits, and score limits. Explain how AD&D is easier to customise to your game world? > I have never expressed any preference toward 2E or 3E. I have always You certainly have in this letter. > Anyway, agree or disagree, my opinion won't change TSR. 8-) Of course it won't. TSR hasn't exised as a company for a few years now. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:41:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Mad Max MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, that rifle looks a bit Renaissance or even middle ages China -style to me, with the cannon in the shape of an exotic beast... Besides, don't forget that quite a bit of the oldest xD&D stuff ever revolves around fantasy characters meeting sci-fi gadgets (the old Blackmoor stuff, plus Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and the section in the 1st ed DMG devoted to converting Gamma World energy weapons to AD&D)... and nobody got mad at Gygax for his confessed foray into blasters + sorcery gaming elements!! Take what you like, that's all... On a different note, I agree with the 3e artwork looking a bit "funny" for my tastes... it's quite more close to video game RPG characters than to realistic (aesthetically speaking only, of course) artwork from previous editions. Maybe artwork "influencing" gaming style is a bit too much, but it's also hard to deny that all those illustrations from our first readings of the D&D manuals had a big impact into our ideas and depictions of the gaming world, but that's gonna be quite subjective, as most of us have grown up in gaming with Larry Elmore and similar illustrators... Just a small detail, illustrations in the new core books are so combat-oriented by an overwhelming majority!! and the few non-combat pictures are kinda bland... all those images of castles in the mist, huge valleys with a party on the horizon or musty alchemist labs are gone, and they were far more alluring IMO than the typical "fight with orcs (or whatever)" illustration... Maybe that's just me... I got hooked to buying Temple of Elemental Evil twelve years ago just because of the mysterious gothic temple in the cover... now I passed Forge of Fury when it arrived at my local RPG shop stacks cuz the cover was a complete deja vu of Sunless Citadel... Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:56:03 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B1A3190.EC92F498@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Agathokles wrote: > If you want to start with heroes instead of beginners, you start at > higher level, no problem. The reverse is impossible. How? A first level character is a beginner, even in 3e. > A little of training is different from super-hero. explain to me how a 1st level character is powerful enough to slay dozens of marauding orcs, or kill dragons using the 3e rules, and you're paint will be valid. > See, a lot of pre-installed "options", which you can't remove without > tinkering with the core. Also, much like Windows, you are free to > customize the pointers and background, cannot easily replace the > important stuff. Untrue. You can easily delete everything from the 3e game, and you are left with the d20 Kernel. If you don't want an element in your game, such as gnomes or halflings, delete them. Don't want feats? delete them. Want an all human world with no magic? go for it. The BASIC 3e game they give you is a full install. You can customize to your heart's content. Some changes may require a bit of extra programming (i.e. deleting feats requires you to add rules for item creation and such) but you can get that from another book. In short form, if you wanted to, you could modify the 3e game to fit ALMOST EXACTLY into the mold of oD&D's class/race system. add some new skills, and cut feats into seperate rule subsets, and, barring a new combat/AC/saving throws mechanic, you have a pretty good match for oD&D. > Remember, if I want Red Hat without Gnome, I can replace it with KDE, or > avoid using the graphic interface at all. If I want 3e without choice feature here>, it is impossible. First of all, I won't get into a KDE vs. Gnome debate, because it is immaterial. But what you said is plain wrong. 3e can be customized in short order to whatever you want. You don't need any of it, keep the parts you want, change what you don't. Much cleaner than you'd expect. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alignments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Angelo Bertolli" > > I'm not saying people should use alignments, I just wonder why 3e which > seemed to do a good job modernizing everything else, decided to keep the > alignment system the way it is. (Or am I not correct in assuming that?) I guess that was one of the "sacred cows" that they decided couldn't be touched. Certainly for a campaign oriented on Mystara, the good/evil alignment axis can be dropped, and you wouldn't do much violence to the setting if you jettisoned the law/chaos axis as well. Of all the things that make any important Mystaran character tick, alignment certainly seems to be the least important factor. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:25:37 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Christmas trees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Not at all, Hafnir! Not at all! That would be a DISASTER, instead, as > the other already overpowered characters would loot the dead one's > magic items and literally go around resembling Christmas trees! You know the old saying, "You can't take it with you"? Well -- just make sure that the dead character does just that! ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:29:01 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Angelo Bertolli" > Anyone want to take a guess how long 3e is going to last before they make > 4e? D&D has averaged about ten years between official editions (far longer than any other RPG system, BTW) -- so my best guess is that they will announce the 4th edition at GenCon in 2009 and officially release the first 4E book at GenCon in 2010. I also have a hunch that WotC has changed things in a way that may speed up the whole process, so my personal bet is for 2006 and 2007 respectively -- or perhaps a lot quicker if 4E is (as I suspect it would be) a far less radical revision than 3E was. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:33:30 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: FW: [MYSTARA] Raising & RE: [MYSTARA] Ways to get rid of too manymagic items MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "hafnir" > > I mentioned above your suggestion of basically forcing the party to > tithe, and I figure it's roughly equivalent to my 10000gp/level > method. However, I like your idea of adding in quests! I.e., making > money only one ingredient in what is needed. I mean, usually I just > charge them the gold because it's quick to deal with between adventures, > but this does inspire me to perhaps tack on other prices to the raising > spell, preferably other things that can be done between adventures. > I'm tempted to do simple things like you have to convert religion, > or wear a special religious brand or tattoo, or require a service be > done for the church (not necessarily a full-blown quest, but perhaps > the party has to use the money to see to it a new wing in the church > is built). Or just something that's fairly easy to do between > adventures, but harder than just erasing gold off the character sheet. > Anyway, I'm feeling inspired, so thanks! :) You know, that "religious brand" idea has some merit -- think of the implications if any character raised from the dead bears an aura that says, "Raised by cleric of X!" -- especially if X is somewhat controversial. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: MYSTARA - Gone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "The Ancient One" > Hi, > re: Mystara dying out in the long run, I don't think it will, although I > think as far as the successors to TSR are concerned it is pretty much > lost. There are quite a few people publishing stuff that slots right > into Mystara - lost kingdoms of the known world, as I describe it in > one of my own products. Furthermore, the ESD project will give it a new lease on life -- all of the OOP products that most Mystara fans can't find any more should be available from WotC within a year, according to WotC and ex-employee Jim Butler. I am really looking forward to the boost that this will give the Mystara setting, even though there are at most 3-4 products in that line that I don't already have. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Ogg.: Re: [MYSTARA] Munchkin- was 'The Famous Equation of Scaevola' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Federico Kaftal" > So... who read the book: please, come out! and tell us more about > these people's characteristics. Thank you... In the Oz books, the munchkins are simply short humans -- none of them do anything especially noteworthy. You will need to look elsewhere for anything about them as gaming monsters. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:49:06 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Pink Plate Mail +5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Angelo Bertolli" > You know, I think in my case the pink plate mail would be a great way to > make the game unique, but I don't think it would deter players from using > it! In fact, it's more likely to change the culture of the world where when > people see something pink, they think power. I don't know if that's what > you were trying to get at or not, but I think that it takes having players > that care ALOT more about panache than numbers. I think alot of people are > somewhere in between. They wouldn't use a pink plate +2, but make it a +5, > and they'd just deal with looking stupid. Well -- assuming that your players are macho enough to be even slightly bothered by the pink color, why not have that armor go all the way and have a secondary function as a "girdle of sex changing"? In other words, the only way your macho characters could benefit from this pink armor would be to let it turn them into women. If that isn't cruel enough -- just have it snip them and leave them as non-functional males. ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Praise for the Ways to . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Alex Benson" > coincidently, you and myself did participate in > a common campaign...sort of. rememeber Kaviyd's Glantri PBeM? > i was Brannart. BTW -- my apologies to all participants for letting that PBEM game fall apart. At least I learned a lot from it, if it left the rest of you rather frustrated. It was my first attempt at running an RPG where I couldn't actually see all the players. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "DM" > > Crystal Sphere and the Galaxy: Mystaraspace is unique in that it lies at > the hub of two different dimensions, the Immortals' Multiverse properly, > and the Planescape Multiverse. It exists in both realities without being > doubled and as such it is both a Crystal Sphere (according to Spelljammer > rules) and a "normal" solar system, part of the Glittering Way galaxy in our > Prime universe. The veil that separates the two dimensions lies at the edge > of Mystaraspace, and it is called the Golden Barrier (all IMC). It is a big > magic field which contains the whole solar system. For spelljamming > vessels it is the crystal sphere that harbors the system, for other vessels > (not propelled via a spelljamming helm) it is simply a great space > phenomenon. Ooh -- I really like this one. It transforms my theory that the true nature of the Mystaran solar system is unknown into a reality that leaves all possibilities open. Bravo! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: to much to handle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Martin Mathes" > > wasn't there an option to get the mails in a digest form, just at the moment > i'm not able to open, read and save all interesting stuff? You will probably get a bunch of replies to this one, but in case I am the first here goes: Send an e-mail to listserv@oracle.wizards.com and write the following as the body of your message: SET MYSTARA-L DIGEST END ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: New Monster: The Munchkin (silly) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Geoff Gander" > > This reminds me of a Palladium campaign I was playing in some time ago - > one of the other players (a true munchkin in every sense of the word, probably > stage II, since he was about 21 at the time) demanded loudly that another > character hand over his weapons, so that he could "kill things twice as > fast". As I recall, he also convinced the GM (his friend) that the gas > mask he was wearing constituted armour for the head region, so he > shouldn't take as much damage in that region. Oh well. Needless to say, > he's not playing with us anymore. :-) Then again, he may have a point -- or your DM could rule that it doesn't really matter because a Munchkin's head contains no vital organs anyway. ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:37:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Gilles Leblanc" > > I have played and DMed under both OD&D and AD&D 2E. I own Mystara products > for both OD&D and 2E. It would be interesting if you could mention specific > exemples of things that were shoehorned so I might look them up myself and > understand your point. Prince Kol (cited in an earlier message) would be the strongest example. The Glantrian Elven princesses would be a slightly weaker example. More to the point -- compare the treatment of Boldavia's vampire prince in Gaz 3 and G:KoM. In Gaz 3, destroying that prince is considered a bad idea because it would leave a bunch of uncontrolled vampires loose in Boldavia and elsewhere in Glantri. However, in G:KoM Morphail is simply a chaotic evil monster whose destruction would be a welcome relief, never mind the consequences. As useful as G:KoM was, it was to some extent undermined by the simplifications of major NPC personalities introduced under the AD&D 2E rules. Just look at Prince Jaggar -- is he good? No way. Is he evil? If you accept that he is, then you are not far from forgetting a more important point -- that he is very LAWFUL and disciplined. I think it is highly significant that Jaggar could not see through the deceptions of Dolores and turn against her in any product published by TSR -- it took the work of fans who were familiar with his previously described personality to decide that, whatever his alignment, he would not continue to cooperate with a demoness from the Sphere of Entropy once he realized just what she was. BTW -- I see no need to respond to a more detailed posting of yours to this list in regard to various points I raised, in which your response basically amounted to you doing some work on your own to account for various discrepancies between rule systems. I have no problem with that -- in fact, I have done quite a bit of it myself -- but I do have a problem with the 2E conversions in their original form. By all means, do work on them and make them into something useful -- but certainly don't take them at face value and rely on them as the ultimate source material if you have better material available. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 23:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Told you it was coming soon, didn't I? But you didn't believe me... Anyways, here comes the writeup of Toney House, last and least of the Houses of Darokin. Enjoy! Sometime in the next week or so, I will edit all the Houses of Darokin posts into one, more consistant document that will use 3E rules and post that, along with the credits. After that, what's in the D&D writng queue? Glad you asked... 1) Houses of Darokin- The Fallen Houses: A writeup on Ithel, Raken, and Ardel Houses- The Great Houses that no longer exist. 2) Darokinian Government: How does the Republic work anyways? This has the answers 3) Darokinian History: A fairly substantial timeline of Darokin up to 1000 AC. 4) RD1- Legacy of the Fallen: A high level 3E adventure set in 1002 AC. Reginald of Crowlerd goes missing, and the PCs must travel to Itheldown Island to try and find him. 5) RD2- Web of Deceit: Reginald of Crowlerd has been assasinated... but who is responsible for this deed? 6) RD3- Halls of Power: Darokin is being brought to the brink of civil war as a result of Reginald's assasination. Can the PCs stop this calamity and uncover the true villains before it is too late? 7) RD4- The Price of Victory: More a supplement than an adventure, this looks at Darokin in the aftermath of the RD modules and advances the timeline to 1004 AC. 8) The Crisis of Darokinian Statehood- Darokin in the Great War: Exactly what the title says; Darokin from 1005-1010 AC. The Master's invasion was a sideshow in WotI, but now it gets its due. Anyways... on with the show! A Brief History of Toney House Thoguh Toney House is currently the smallest of the Great Houses, this was not always the case. Founded in 833 AC, Toney House achieved its maximum prominence in 988 AC, when it was the sixth largest merchant house. Even before then, Toney House was the origin of the most popular Chancellor in Darokin's history, Corwyn Hoff, who won by such a large landslide in the general election that he was the only canidate with sufficient votes to be put for consideration before the Inner Council. His was also the shortest lived Chancellorship, lasting a mere four year. Toney House is unique in the origin of its name. The name comes from an inn in Akorros, where the family was founded. Toney House was created by a merger of several of the largest Minor Houses of Darokin. The final deal was signed in Toney's Inn, and because none of the founding houses was any more important than any other, they named the fledgling alliance The Toney's Inn Consortium, which is still the official name of Toney House, though it is by the later title that is is called normally. (Toney's Inn was later bought by Toney House, which has established branches of the Inn in every major city in Darokin.) However, despite the retention of the name, Toney House became a typical one family merchant dynasty after the suspiscious death of Chancellor Hoff. Mendel Callister was elected Chairman of the Consortium, and he quickly bought out the other member's shares in between 975 and 977 AC, often using shady tactics. He was later forced to defend these tactics in a series of court battles in 978 AC. Toney House is also unique in that it has had a history of buying failing Houses, then either selling their assets off for a profit or using Toney House's greater resources to make the failure into a sucess. Even former Great Houses have been consumed by this strategy: Ithel and Raken Houses are both now nothing more than part of Toney House. The most recent important event in Toney's history is Mendel Callister's attempted crackdown on the Thieves' Guild of Akorrros. This move backfired, and related incidents have driven Toney House down to it's current position as the smallest Great House, a situation Mendel Callister seeks to repair as soon as possible. Toney House Assets Toney House maintains a massive presence in the domestic maritime industry, and is a minor competitor in the Glantri trade (competing with Corun and Umbarth Houses). Thanks to Franich House's recent withdrawl from that market, Toney House controls a virtual monopoly on the Atruaghin market. As mentioned above, Toney House runs the Toney's Inn chain in all major Darokin cities, and is looking to construct a Toney's Inn in Glantri City in the near future. Toney House Relations Al-Azrad House: Neutral. There are no significant relations between these two houses. Corun House: Neutral. Corun House tolerates Toney House's minor role in the Glantrian market. Franich House: Hostile. Toney House is currently blackmailing Franich House. Hallonica House: Neutral. Neither house has much to do with the other. Linton House: Neutral verging on Hostile. Though Toney has not openly defied Linton since the death of Corwyn Hoff, it has nursed a grudge against Linton ever since. Mauntea House: Neutral. Darokin's smallest Great House has little to do with its largest. Pennydown House: Friendly. Mendel Callister is examining the option of marrying one of his sons to Elissa Pennydown, in hopes of an eventual merger between their houses. Umbarth House: Neutral. No significant relations exist between TOney and Umbarth. Toney House Personalities Mendel Callister (8th level magic-user/12th level merchant, NE) Mendel Callister was born 62 years ago, the same year as Corwyn Hoff. The two were close as brothers, and even went adventuring together. However, the relationship soured after Corwyn used his fame from some of their adventuring exploits to become Chancellor. Jealous of his former friend, Mendel may have been involved somehow in his death. In any case, after ascending to the Chairmanship of Toney House, he was ruthless in his tactics to gain total control of the House, studying the works of Charles Mauntea often. He married Corwyn Hoff's widow, and has had three children with her. Mendel has graying hair and pale blue eyes. Rachael Callister (0 level normal woman, LN) Rachael married Mendel after the death of her first husband, Corwyn Hoff. She is a quiet woman now, though in her youth she was vibrant and outspoken. She is rarely seen in Darokin society, not even attending the Darokin City Masked Ball. She has white hair and brown eyes. Vardon Hoff (12th level fighter, NG) The only child of Corwyn Hoff, Vardon was born just before his father's death, and he is not a member of Toney House. Though he grew up disliked by his stepfather and neglected by his mother, Vardon became a caring soul. He went adventuring, eventually becoming even more famous than his father. He is currently on sabbatical from active adventuring and keeps himself busy running an orphanage in Corunglain, with funding from Corun House. Politically, like his father before him, he is a champion of democratic reforms. He has contemplated running for Chancellor should Corwyn Mauntea die or resign, but believes that any such effort is doomed to ailure without the support of a Great House. Quint Callister (5th level fighter/7th level merchant, LN) Mendel Callister's eldest son and heir apparent, Quint Callister aids his father in running Toney House. He is the character most likely to deal with hired adventurers. His father seeks a wedding between him and Ellisa Pennydown, though Quint has privately expressed his ambivalence about that plan to his closest friends. In person, Quint is blunt and arrogant, but he is anything but foolish. He is a ruthless but honorable man, and will no doubt lead Toney House to ever greater heights when he takes over. Roger Callister (3rd level fighter/4th level merchant, N) Roger is the second child of Mendel Callister. He takes after his mother, with brown hair and eyes. He is relatively unknown on the social and political scenes, as he spends much of his time in the Atruaghin Clans. Laurana Mauntea (0 level normal woman, N) Laurana, Mendel's youngest child, married a cousin of Corwyn Mauntea last year. She is a lively woman, much like her mother when she was young, and is a striking beauty with raven hair and piercing blue eyes. Her marriage is a political one, and rumor has it she seeks true love outside the marriage bed. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:54:18 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Praise for the Ways to . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David a.k.a. Kaviyd: <<>From: "Alex Benson" > > coincidently, you and myself did participate in > a common campaign...sort of. rememeber Kaviyd's Glantri PBeM? > i was Brannart. BTW -- my apologies to all participants for letting that PBEM game fall apart.=A0 At least I learned a lot from it, if it left the rest of you rather frustrated.=A0 It was my first attempt at running an RPG where I couldn't actually see all the players.>> don't sweat it. you did a very good job in setting up the game and=20 administrating it. so no real need for appologies from you. the player pool=20 fell apart....curse you real life!!!! such things are to be expected when yo= u=20 play via email. anyway....it was fun while it lasted.=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:45:15 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition In-Reply-To: <007801c0ec9a$1b4688e0$72a61a26@q6s7w2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >D&D has averaged about ten years between official editions (far longer >than any other RPG system, BTW) I think Call of Cthulhu has that beat on average. VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:52:26 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: Mad Max In-Reply-To: <000401c0ec97$7d841980$b85899c1@uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >DMG devoted to converting Gamma World energy weapons to AD&D)... and nobody >got mad at Gygax for his confessed foray into blasters + sorcery gaming >elements!! > The hell you say! I know a number of people who have never cared for that nonsense. For some reason, it seemed like the ol' farts just couldn't help themselves from sticking a bunch of stupid sci-fi stuff in there games. I'll go on record right now as being mad at Gygax for doing that! ;) VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:43:26 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > . > Don't want feats? delete them. Try, and then tell me Fighters are still balanced against the other classes. Do the same with skills, and watch what happens to Rogues. > In short form, if you wanted to, you could modify the 3e game to fit > ALMOST EXACTLY into the mold of oD&D's class/race system. add some new > skills, and cut feats into seperate rule subsets, and, barring a new > combat/AC/saving throws mechanic, you have a pretty good match for oD&D. Then use OD&D instead... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 23:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Too many rules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is one of the things I LOVE about OD&D. Players don't have to know > things like feats. In fact, I try to keep my players in the dark about > rules as much as possible. As far as they're concerned, they're playing a > character, in a game, period. I tell them what they get to roll when they > cast a spell, pretty easy. It makes their playing alot more natural. For a time, we tried playing with the minimum amount of numbers on the character sheets as possible. So players would roll a d20, and I'd tell them if they hit or made a save, etc. - they wouldn't know because I had all the numbers. We still used plusses to describe magic swords, armor, etc, but only I knew their AC. Stuff like that. It worked to some extent, but my players missed having the numbers. They were a bit more hack-n-slashers, so it didn't fit them perfectly. Nevertheless, it worked pretty good, and I'll bet with a more role-playing crowd, it could have been very natural. I hope to try it again some day. hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:11:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] The Famous Equation of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With respect to mortals, an Immortal can be damaged, even killed, by a > mortal. A Planescape Power cannot be damaged directly, at most it is > possible to damage an avatar. In the original Immortal Rules, killing an immortal was conceivable, but extremely difficult. And much more difficult still to kill him on his home plane - close to inconceivable. But with the second Immortal Rules, other than the very greenest, lowest level immortals, it seems almost impossible. Especially with the added powers Reduce Saving Throw and the quickie "memorize all mortal spells with infinite use" Immortal level spells, an immortal can just cast disintegrate over and over again while using Reduce Saving Throw at -18, and that's just one of a ton of truly sick things like that that they can do. You're pretty much just dead unless you come incredibly prepared, in which case maybe you'll last a few rounds at best. I'd be curious to hear how any mortals in anyone's campaigns were able to overcome an immortal of any appreciable power, either off or especially on the immortal's home plane. We had one of the most powerful mortal parties I've ever seen (including one brand-new immortal!) go up against Orcus in my 1999 BDP, and Orcus grossly defeated them. He was basically able to take his time with them, and didn't even really need his wand! Fortunately it was already written into the adventure how the party would get out, but it did give them a chance to see face-to-face how powerful an immortal can be! Then the following year (last year) that very same fledgling immortal turned on the party, and their only real recourse was to outright retreat by teleporting away! Fortunately that worked out too, and the traitor immortal didn't pursue (betraying the party was his final "entrance exam" to join the Sphere of Entropy, so when he actually did turn on them, the Entropy immortals knew he was sincere, and that was good enough), but even that brand new immortal could have taken out the (admittedly, already quite wounded) party. hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "ramhog" > > > >D&D has averaged about ten years between official editions (far longer > >than any other RPG system, BTW) > > I think Call of Cthulhu has that beat on average. Really? Can you cite publication years to back up that claim? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:37:37 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Saarela Sami Subject: VS: [MYSTARA] D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT CoC has something like 5 editions in 20 years. My math makes that 4 years on average. - Sami > ---------- > L�hett�j�: David Knott[SMTP:uashell@EARTHLINK.NET] > Vastaa: Mystara RPG Discussion > L�hetetty: 4. kes�kuuta 2001 10:25 > Vastaanottaja: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Aihe: Re: [MYSTARA] D&D 4th edition > > From: "ramhog" > > > > > >D&D has averaged about ten years between official editions (far longer > > >than any other RPG system, BTW) > > > > I think Call of Cthulhu has that beat on average. > > Really? Can you cite publication years to back up that claim? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: WEBSITE: new stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have added zipfiles and zipfile requests to my site containing character sheets with premade black and white grayscale portaits. The specific link is www.geocities.com/overmind_2099/gamefiles.html for my gaming page, one of the choices is then the character sheets link, there are others of interest also. -J ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:49:15 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: VS: [MYSTARA] D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Saarela Sami" > CoC has something like 5 editions in 20 years. My math makes that 4 years on > average. Then CoC beats D&D the wrong way -- I was looking for a game system that averaged more than 10 years between editions, not fewer. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:54:01 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Saarela Sami Subject: VS: [MYSTARA] VS: [MYSTARA] D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I understand your point. I was merely stating a fact, not taking part to any debates. > ---------- > L�hett�j�: David Knott[SMTP:uashell@EARTHLINK.NET] > Vastaa: Mystara RPG Discussion > L�hetetty: 4. kes�kuuta 2001 10:49 > Vastaanottaja: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Aihe: Re: [MYSTARA] VS: [MYSTARA] D&D 4th edition > > From: "Saarela Sami" > > > CoC has something like 5 editions in 20 years. My math makes that 4 > years > on > > average. > > Then CoC beats D&D the wrong way -- I was looking for a game > system that averaged more than 10 years between editions, not fewer. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 04:36:39 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Mad Max MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would have to agree 100% a lot of OD&D was about sci-fi meets fantasy. IMC we even ran through the AD&D Oddessy Adventure Tale of the Comet. I changed the setting to Karamikos, in the mountians north of Threshold. We also said that the ship was from the same civilization that sent the Beagle all those years ago that crashed in Blackmoor. Science fiction and fantasy go hand in hand in my opinion. I do not play with 3E but I can respect the way Dungeons and Dragons is going and will still use any good ideas for my game. Welcome to the new Millenium...get used to it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:28:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Mad Max MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The hell you say! I know a number of people who have never cared for that nonsense. For some reason, it seemed like the ol' farts just couldn't help themselves from sticking a bunch of stupid sci-fi stuff in there games. I'll go on record right now as being mad at Gygax for doing that! ;) OK, I never had any use for that stuff IMCs either... I just was trying to say that all these ideas never hurt the balance, style and spirit of the game; it was just an open option. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 02:46:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"  The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU> wrote:

<< I have run a continuous Mystara campaign since 1998 and it had
Spelljamming etc. in it from day one. I didn't use the Bruce Heard stuff
as I loathe it. Spelljamming works fine in Mystara IMC. It's a bit
dangerous to make assumptions about who has run what on a list I would
have thought. >>

eheh, actually that's the point in making them: make other people who have run similar campaigns jump out of their hole to express it. So far nobody ever did anything related to Spelljammer in their Mystara campaigns save for me and Leroy, so I pointed this out. I'm glad you're also supporting both systems in your campaign. :)

PS: if u want, I have the FULL list of all skyships/spelljamming ships for SJR and Mystara (anything from Armada to Xebec, including Heldannic Warbirds, Alphatian Man-o-Wars and the Flying barge of Sayr-Ulan) complete with all statistics and descriptions of the inner compartments (where available from cardboards). This list has been made using SJR rules, improved thanks to Leroy's wonderful construction system (let's face it, WCC's rules sucked!). If you're interested, I can send it to u (altho it's rather big)...

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967
And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 02:36:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>  wrote:

DM wrote:
>
> however I think I am making improvements in devising a theory that
> explains the presence of demons (tanar'ri/Immortal lesser fiends) and
> devils (baatezu/no D&D counterpart) in the D&D Multiverse.

<< Perhaps, baatezu could be adapted to the Mystaran cosmology as a
Nightmare Dimension counterpart of the Lesser Fiends. It would fit their
lawful alignment.>>

uh? So u suggest devils originate from the Nightmare Dimension? But the standard rule is that everything living there shouldn't be lawful, rather chaotic or neutral..

I had something else in mind, instead... making them thrive in the Astral plane, where all the Spheres have neutral bias, having been chased away from the Outer and Inner Planes because of some old contract their master, Asmodeus, has sworn to obey (so the Nine Hells lie in the Astral IMC)... I'm still elaborating on the nature of this "contract" and the way Asmodeus was forced to accept it, but it deals with some treachery on the Entropics' part, which has caused the Mystaran version of the Blood War raging across the Astral plane for a couple of aeons...

Ok I admit it's quite far fetched, but it's not impossible to believe ;)

PS: I liked your notes on the Alphatian pantheon, Giampaolo, and will comment on it in another post. However, regarding the Nithian one, why didn't u take into account the pantheon presented in the Nithia gazetteer?

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
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And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
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******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:56:31 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah DM, send it over dude! (offlist please god) I have all the ship stats on the original cards etc. plus the trading cards but I always get all the SJ stuff I can on general principles - goldpanning instinct! :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:34:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Despite our divergences on the 3E issue, I must admit that our Aaron is an excellent writer! 8-) Good work, both this and Franich!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:01:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM wrote: > > << Perhaps, baatezu could be adapted to the Mystaran cosmology as a > Nightmare Dimension counterpart of the Lesser Fiends. It would fit their > lawful alignment.>> > > uh? So u suggest devils originate from the Nightmare Dimension? But the > standard rule is that everything living there shouldn't be lawful, > rather chaotic or neutral.. Not necessarily from the Nightmare equivalent of the Prime Plane, but from the equivalent of the Pyts. Since the "normal" inhabitant of the Nightmare Dim. is Chaotic, I thought their Fiends would naturally be Lawful. That was just a random thought, though. I never gave much thought to the role of Baatezu in the OD&D multiverse, since I use a mostly PS cosmology IMC. > I had something else in mind, instead... making them thrive in the > Astral plane > Ok I admit it's quite far fetched, but it's not impossible to believe ;) Uhm, I don't know. It could be possible, but who were their enemy in the Blood War, now that they're quite far from the demons. > PS: I liked your notes on the Alphatian pantheon, Giampaolo, and will Thank you, I'll be glad to hear your comments :) > comment on it in another post. However, regarding the Nithian one, why > didn't u take into account the pantheon presented in the Nithia gazetteer? Because I wasn't aware of it, as I don't have the HW products :( I just had this interesting (IMO) correspondence of the RW Egyptian mithology with an IC explanation of the events in OW Nithia, and I built a pantheon on this. I only had your Ylari/Nithian pantheon and James Mishler's Nithian pantheon to work with. Two features that I did not want were overlaps between Legends & Lore powers and Mystaran Immortals, and the addition of new Immortals (which would need a writeup). Mainly, I replaced the five brothers/sisters of Osiris with suitable Mystaran Immortals, and replaced the chase of Set with the events involving Thanatos, and the addition of Pflarr to the pantheon. Of course, the story would not hold due to timeline discrepancies, so I couldn't set the pantheon as an ancient Nithian one, and I decided to set it in HW Nithia. While we are on the subject, what is the canonical HW Nithian pantheon? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:08:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... In-Reply-To: <3B192AC5.EC7D8C69@libero.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:04 PM 6/2/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Perhaps, baatezu could be adapted to the Mystaran cosmology as a >Nightmare Dimension counterpart of the Lesser Fiends. It would fit their >lawful alignment. Interesssting... I like this approach. I'd wanted (for a while now) to come up with some form of ND Demonic equivalents (like the thingymajig mentioned in the Azca gazetteer- the Tzizitzime?). Hadn't considered making them the alignment-opposite Devils, though. Good idea! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:26:39 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Web Warlock Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? In-Reply-To: <3B1A00AC.6F4C1A5E@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I am a 21+ veteran of the Game. I have played every version of D&D there is, starting with the Blue Basic box. I have even had a chance to play using the "white books". I am in my 30s and I really like 3E! Is it suited for Mystrara? Maybe not, I like to use "Basic" D&D (my red basic book and my blue expert book) to play in Mystara. But I am gearing up to play two different Mystara campaings using 3E, and I think it will work out great! It's not about the rules, it's about the good time. Warlock. -- Web Warlock, webwarlock@iname.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks The Other Side: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock The DnD Community Council: http://www.dndcommunitycouncil.org/~nbownw -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Caroletti Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 4:18 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] I know that 3E and D20 are the same, is there anybody who has got my point?? > Actually, this is not entirely true. Try removing feats or skills from > 3e/d20 (they're the same, Giulio!). My point is NOT THE RULES!!!!!!!!!! It's IMPOSSIBLE to see if one game system is better than another. Like the Ancient One said, rules discussions will not lead anywhere (like religion and politics discussions). I am just saying: 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird things. Obviously, when you write a rules set you try to make it consistent, and then it may or may not be so. I am not going to judge this. The difference from D20 and 3E is a "philosophical" difference. D20 tells you "hey, I am an universal system to use for you to make your own campaign world, I try to cover anything". 3E tells you "hey, I AM THE NEW D&D, so you MUST use me, and you ESPECIALLY have to use all these new powers and classes, see, you can be a dwarven wizard, you do not have level limits, you will be more powerful at lower levels..." The same thing, presented in two very different perspectives. And young gamers will buy 3E, and enter the Vortex of Munchkinism. This was not the case for AD&D. And if you didn't like something in AD&D it was much more easier to not allow your players to do it. Thus my comment "AD&D was more Mystaran than 3E". I have never expressed any preference toward 2E or 3E. I have always remained only on the "ethical" aspects of those systems. The "feeling" is very important to set things. If I say "You're really an idiot" and you don't hear the tone I am using, stripped of context, you would probably be offended. If you just threw chocolate on your new pants, and while we are both laughing I say it, there is a lot of difference, although the words are exactly the same. This is what happens to 3E in regard to D20 and 2E. It's the FEELING that has changed, and it's a "whitewashing for the masses", like Ethan said. Anyway, agree or disagree, my opinion won't change TSR. 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? In-Reply-To: <20010603152534.85042.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Niall Hosking wrote: > All other publishers have to contain stripped-down > rules, and then reference a WotC book such as the PHB > (although you could concievably use SW for SF games). > Check out the details for yourself at: Wow. I see you all have missed the point. The d20 license does NOT preclude you from creating your own classes with their own progression charts. If you want the game to be compatible with D&D3e, and use those classes, you can't publish them, because the 3e classes aren't open source. But you aren't precluded from publishing your own classes and your own progression tables. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 06:44:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010604022748.00a15190@racine.ra.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:36 AM 6/4/01 +0200, you wrote: > > uh? So u suggest devils originate from the Nightmare Dimension? But the >standard rule is that everything living there shouldn't be lawful, rather >chaotic or neutral.. Think of it this way- The Chaotic and Evil Demons exist in order to promote discord in the Normal Dimension (which is lawfully inclined). The Lawful and Evil Devils exist to promote tyranny in the chaotically inclined Nightmare Dimension. Essentially they fill the same function, but with different inclinations due to the predominant "trend" in the thinking of the inhabitants of each dimension. At least, that's how I'm tempted to look at it, now that Agathokles brought up the concept. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, ramhog wrote: > >D&D has averaged about ten years between official editions (far longer > >than any other RPG system, BTW) > > I think Call of Cthulhu has that beat on average. Heroes Unlimited went through 3 revisions, 1984, 87, 98, and the '87 reprinting wasn't much of an edition change as it was "making the rules a bit cleaner" (Not that Palladium's style of "cut-n-paste" sections from other books into new ones is ever cleaner..) Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:50:20 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) In-Reply-To: <3B1B2E0E.3050008@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, G.P. Agosta wrote: > Try, and then tell me Fighters are still balanced against the other > classes. Do the same with skills, and watch what happens to Rogues. I didn't say it was easy, or that you wouldn't have to rebalance. > Then use OD&D instead... Not the point. I showed that you can costomize 3e. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Regarding Mystaraspace and Spelljammer and PScape... In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010604022748.00a15190@racine.ra.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > uh? So u suggest devils originate from the Nightmare Dimension? But the > standard rule is that everything living there shouldn't be lawful, rather > chaotic or neutral.. Quote that rule. Nightmare creatures are the polar opposite of normals. So technically, a nightmare undead would be lawful. (or so ^_^) Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:01:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "G.P. Agosta" Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel wrote: > >> Try, and then tell me Fighters are still balanced against the other >> classes. Do the same with skills, and watch what happens to Rogues. > > I didn't say it was easy, or that you wouldn't have to rebalance. By this measure, any game is as good as 3e. Just hammer it until it fits your tastes. If it is difficult, that's your problem. BTW, it is enough for my purposes that 3e is much harder to customize than AD&D 2e. >> Then use OD&D instead... > > Not the point. I showed that you can costomize 3e. If you have to customize it (and it is difficult, as you admitted --I'd say it is impossible, since customizing it leads to the elimination of its supposed qualities) in order to use it, and OD&D is your goal, then there's no reason to use it. Also, it is easier to customize AD&D in order to mimic OD&D, if your goal is to have a game that can be customized so that it works like OD&D, but it isn't OD&D. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:34:46 +0200 Wizards Shopper writes: > Despite our divergences on the 3E issue, I must admit that our Aaron > is > an excellent writer! 8-) > Good work, both this and Franich!! Thank you very much for the kind comments. Just for you, the collected Houses of Darokin will now include the OD&D/2E fusion stats in addition to the 3E stats... ;) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 00:21:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread is like a DC Silver Age hero, it just won't die... A lot of the points remind me of a movie joke in their obviousness... "What's wrong?" "I got this itching burning sensation in my foot!" "What do you expect - your damn foot's on fire!" Shouldn't the current rule discussion be in one of the D&D/AD&D edition lists (if they still exist?) It would be a shame to unsubscribe again so quickly purely because of this endless discussion on entrenched views. Am I missing some posts or is this topic really dominating the list? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: The Famous Rant of Scaevola (long) "This isn't the thread you're looking for. Move along." Interesting as it's been, I think it's time to turn the ship back into more familar waters (ie: Mystara). Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:49:02 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Mike Donnelly Jr Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same,is there anybody who has got my point?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > > Actually, this is not entirely true. Try removing feats or skills from > > 3e/d20 (they're the same, Giulio!). > > My point is NOT THE RULES!!!!!!!!!! > It's IMPOSSIBLE to see if one game system is better than another. Like > the Ancient One said, rules discussions will not lead anywhere (like > religion and politics discussions). > > I am just saying: > 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird > things. Kinda like D&D was back in the 70s/80s? :) A lot of those 'weird kids' back then grew up all right. OTOH, a lot of them grew up to be weirdos... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: Puzzles & Riddles for players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are some relatively quick puzzles & riddles for use with players: RIDDLE: When the red petal of the swamp flower is lost, the number of the remaining petals will be your key SOLUTION: The swamp flower is the lilly, alchemical symbol of the unity of the elements (air,fire,earth,water,quintessence - in Mystara noble quintessence is replaced by base Entropy). Since there are five Spheres there are five petals. Since one is lost, the answer is "4". Thus in a dungeon, maze, trap or riddling creature, this will be the answer, either as an actual number, the number on the door to choose, the number of times to click a Blackmoor tech button on a wall, etc. etc. RIDDLE: The grasping hand reaches eternally for the pearl on the shifting sands; its defeat lies above, not below. SOLUTION: A treasure, presumptively an actual pearl, lying on a sandy bottom of a lake, deep river or sea. The defeat of the grasping hand of an adventurer seeking to take the pearl lies in the adventurer's need for air; without it he or she cannot reach the pearl due to not being able ot breathe water. There are other, more arcane possible solutions too. RIDDLE: Contention of Lion and Griffin; only in times of peace will the answer emerge. SOLUTION: A mechanism or pair of figurines of the Sun and Moon attached to movable levers can be swung so as to be far apart, touching or crossed over. When touching, they frame a particular star on a starmap behind them. Pressing that star opens a secret door leading to a cache of books, scrolls and similar treasures. Sun = Male = Lion, Griffin = Woman = Moon in medieval western magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 02:08:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: my D&D's bigger than your D&D, etc.etc.etc. Comments: cc: Ken Simpson , Barry Clarke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's stop the D&D rules arguments... they really are vapid now. Let's just, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, agree that OD&D man has a good point about 3e feeding off the political disenfranchisement of the bourgeoisie and that 3e man is right when he says that OD&D begets, as if by a law of nature, its own abnegation. Or the song not by THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS: D&D Man D&D Man Does whatever a D&D can What's he look like? It's not important. D&D Man D&D Man D&D Man D&D Man D&D Man hates OD&D Man They have a fight D&D Man neither wins nor loses... D&D Man D&D Man Hasbro Man Hasbro Man Owner of the entire universe man Usually kind to smaller man Powerful Man Hasbro Man Mystara Man Mystara Man His gameworld's consigned to the garbage can Who came up with Mystara Man Degraded Man Mystara Man Hasbro Man Hasbro Man They have a fight Hasbro Man wins Powerful Man Hasbro Man ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:31:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: jason o'brien Subject: virus apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys, I just want to apologise for that virus warning. I got it on Thursday night, was on a 24hr duty on Friday, and panicked when i saw the part about it kicking in on the 1st (I.E. Saturday). again sorry.If it hadn't been late and I hadn't been about to go to bed, I may have taken the time to check it out, but as it was and I wouldn't have been near my computer again until that saturday, I panicked. Sorry. Mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:04:44 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It wouldn't exactly be a balanced game if magic-users got all the same spells as clerics. No one is arguing with you that it has to do with religion. The mechanics of the spell do not exclude religion. But I like the general feel of OD&D where the religious stuff is up to the DM to decide. In my game personally, I like to keep religion assumed without going into the explicit details. I guess my point is, everyone already knows it's based in religion. The problem is game balance and consistency. I mean there are plenty of other things in religions that aren't in D&D simply because they're not useful. Angelo ---------------------------------- If this is the case, then why can't mage's do it too? You are not describing a miraculous event channelled through the servant of a divine being, you are describing a magical operation where the operator gets nailed. Everyone seems to be missing the point that this has its basis in religion. George _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:11:06 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: 3e vs 2e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Any real discussion comparing the two rule sets (which I think is totally fine) should have some basic qualities: 1) Support every point you want to make with facts, and avoid things which are really more opinion than can be agreed upon as "better." 2) You have to agree on what you're going to compare. I think the "core rules" of both games would be good to compare. Using the core rules without DM modification. I'd say forget about FR, any extra stuff, and forget about DM modifications. Of course any game can be made better. I don't think 3e did away with the rule that the DM may change anything in the game he wants. But if you start including that, you're not really comparing let's say 2e with 3e anymore. Actually this makes the whole discussion a moot point. I mean anyone can change the rules anyway. Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: MYSTARA: Puzzles & Riddles for players Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw this one a now defunct website: I have a head and a tail, yet no body, what am I? answer: A coin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:16:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Baaahhhh! IMC one of the NPC's has a special ability Resurrection. Of course using = the 2E version the other PCs lose a point off their const.scores each = time, but oh well, bahhh to the gods! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:21:49 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I agree with you completely. I'm not totally convinced that the target audience was new players. I think the target audience was old players and getting them into introduce new players somehow. Plus, as you recall they came out with AD&D 1st edition cause they thought OD&D should really have been for younger players (which tells something about my mental capabilities?), so I don't think it would be a bad move to continue to provide OD&D as a "beginner's course" to the game, even if they don't make new material. But then again maybe all those scares about D&D being satanic destroyed the market for younger players (parents won't let them). --------------------------------------------------- Of course, everyone I play with has the new rules and not one of them is a munchkin or a teenager. Personally I think OD&D was a simpler read, which would make it more likely as aimed to teenagers on the face of it. AD&D was a rather complex read though, and I think its a measure of the benefits of the 3E system that whenever my players or I have a beef with something in the new book or a question we can generally find an answer or a reason laid out quickly and rationally for us to find. The only consistently hard thing to find in the PHB seems to be the new encumberance chart, but thats because I think they put it in the wrong place and all my players look forever in the wrong place before I show them each time. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:34:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Mad Max Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Actually I think this is off-topic for the list. But I guess my point is, that was my "first impression" of the game. Since then I got used to the new art. I think the other thing that gave me that impression is the style of the art reminded me of the Dark Sun setting which I always took to be a kind of fantasy version of a post apocalyptic world. From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mad Max Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:34:35 -0400 On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Angelo Bertolli wrote: >The fact that the book does include rules and damage for high-tech weapons, >along with a picture of a dwarf holding a plasma rifle doesn't help much, I >say. What books are you reading? The DMG gives ideas on how to deal with a high tech world if you want to make it, or maybe bring your characters there as an adventure. A single picture (pg 162 of the DMG) of a dwarf holding what could be a rifle of some sort does _NOT_ make the game into some sort of post-apoclyptic world. Jeez. Ethan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Game balance in the absence of story leads to absurd results. If the only reason that magics users can't perform raise dead spells is because the rules say so, then there is a serious problem with the rules. We are not playing a game of cards here. We are playing a game where players can explore, as part of their characters, the structure of the game world. If we, as game masters, do not know the detailed reasons within the context of the setting why something is the way it is, then we are doing a disservice to our players. > It wouldn't exactly be a balanced game if magic-users got all the same > spells as clerics. This is hardly true. Can you give me one good reason, based on the merits of the question rather than on some abstract notion of game balance, why magicians cannot use spells of healing and life? Make no mistake. I completely agree that game balance is important, but only so far as it fits into the world that has been created. Why would a cleric of Odin, for example, not be allowed to use a spear as his/her weapon? Or a cleric of Halav not be allowed to use a sword? Just because the rulebook says that clerics cannot use edged weapons? That's silly. That rule is nearly thirty years old and was created in a time when the game system was, to say the least, primitive. In fact, most of the game balance rules are fairly primitive. There have been numerous systems where the idea of character classes has fallen by the wayside. In my system, Borigon, I use a hybrid system; characters can enter professions (giving them access to spells and equipment they might not get otherwise), but they are not required to do so. The system is built around skills. Any character can acquire skills. Magic users gain spells as skills, and since the number of skills any character can have are limited, the powerful magic users collect spells rather than other skills. Clerics can gain prayers and rites dedicated to their divine patrons, within that scope they can weild the greatest power in the game, but they are limited in what they can do by the whim of their patrons, and they easily lose their powers if they go astray (this happened to one of my players). Anyone can learn any available skills, but those who dabble are never as good as those who specialize. That is the game balance. > No one is arguing with you that it has to do with religion. The mechanics > of the spell do not exclude religion. But I like the general feel of OD&D > where the religious stuff is up to the DM to decide. In my game personally, > I like to keep religion assumed without going into the explicit details. How does this support role playing? Whom does a cleric worship? When must they perform their daily ceremonies so that they can be in a state of grace? What are the strictures of their temple, so that they know what they can and cannot do? To whom do they pray? > I guess my point is, everyone already knows it's based in religion. The > problem is game balance and consistency. I mean there are plenty of other > things in religions that aren't in D&D simply because they're not useful. If a detail does not support the role play, then it is not necessary. If a rule impairs role play, then it must be gotten rid of. Obviously, I am not saying allow players to do anything they want. If there is a rule, it had best have a reason that works within role play. A mage asks to research a spell to raise the dead; you say, "No." The player asks, "Why not?" If you tell the player that the rules do not allow it, then everyone is left feeling vaguely uneasy. If you say something like, "Sure, go ahead and try to research it," then you allow the mage to do the research, but you make it impossibly difficult (say, a -75% to the research roll) and you back that up with some story about how mages in the past (say in Blackmoor) had this ability and abused, thus mages were cursed by the Immortals with this detriment, that makes a story. It also gives the mage character something to strive against, perhaps the mage can appease the Immortals to remove the difficulty modifier. Perhaps it is a path to Immortality for the mage character... My personal rule, "Everything I do must have a reason that can be discovered (perhaps with impossible difficulty) by the characters." George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: I know that 3E and D20 are the same MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree, this point is moot. We all play the game to have fun, as DMs and Players we all use the rules as guidelines in order to achieve our ultimate goal... to have fun. So whatever system, rules, versions, house rules, and or material we get this from will work for some, and not for others. I liked the OD&D as a DM & player, I liked AD&D just as a player and not as a DM, why? Mystara is a very well thought out campaign world, any rule set could possibly run it, all it takes is a little imagination. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:10:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: D&D 4th edition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (my only favorite RPG to compete with OD&D) lived decades before undergoing a revision few years ago... minor revision, I think; more of a reprint with some rule expansions and new campaign twists for the classic modules. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:50:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: APOLOGIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I am just saying: > > 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird > > things. THIS IS THE MOST STUPID THING I HAVE WRITTEN IN NEARLY TWO YEARS OF BEING A MML MEMBER. I REGRET IT PROFOUNDLY. SORRY THAT I OFFENDED ALL THOSE WHO LIKE 3E, AND EVEN THE "TEENAGERS" THAT I CALLED STUPID. I am really sooooo sorry. I should be beaten by Geoff until my brain (anyway not so useful) will drop out of my left ear, and begin to beg for forgiveness. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Idiot of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Mike Donnelly Jr Subject: Re: APOLOGIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now that the erstwhile Centurion from Thyatis has appologized for a post (correct or not), Alphatia slowly sinks beneath the waves and a 'brave new Mystara' is on us.... (Sorry, I just had to say it. Perhaps this will end one over-drawn thread...) Caroletti wrote: > > > > > I am just saying: > > > 3E is aimed to stupid teenagers who want to be munchkins and play weird > > > things. > > THIS IS THE MOST STUPID THING I HAVE WRITTEN IN NEARLY > TWO YEARS OF BEING A MML MEMBER. > I REGRET IT PROFOUNDLY. > SORRY THAT I OFFENDED ALL THOSE WHO LIKE 3E, AND > EVEN THE "TEENAGERS" THAT I CALLED STUPID. > > I am really sooooo sorry. I should be beaten by Geoff until my brain > (anyway not so useful) will drop out of my left ear, and begin to beg for > forgiveness. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Idiot of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:58:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: MYSTARA: my D&D's bigger than your D&D, etc.etc.etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Or the song not by THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? My first reaction would be drop to the floor laughing. My second reaction is to think that I am OD&D man and that I have lost. The third reaction is to think wheter I am missing some point. The fourth reaction is that this song remains me of BJH's "Medicine Man" My fifth reaction is that I promise I'll never deliberately start a 0 VS 3 debate ...again. 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:21:29 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: OD&D Dominions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm not very happy with the cost of troops in the RC. Especially since a standard ration (1 week of food) is 1 gp. So these people supposedly live on 1 week of food an entire month? Doesn't seem reasonable to me. Also, what about other kinds of troops from other parts of the world? I have a player who has based himself in the broken lands and tries to hire goblins and orcs for his armies. How much should those cost? What about the experience gain for a ruler? Do they get experience based on how much taxes they collect? The xp for gold works with adventuring, but do we really want to reward those who raise taxes in the same way? Angelo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM> wrote:

<<Sometime in the next week or so, I will edit all the Houses of Darokin
posts into one, more consistant document that will use 3E rules and post
that, along with the credits.>>

I must say I stored all your Darokin files in my HD, Aaron, so I'm really glad u managed to finish the description of all the merchant houses :)

<< After that, what's in the D&D writng queue? Glad you asked...
1) Houses of Darokin- The Fallen Houses: A writeup on Ithel, Raken, and
Ardel Houses- The Great Houses that no longer exist.
2) Darokinian Government: How does the Republic work anyways? This has
the answers
3) Darokinian History: A fairly substantial timeline of Darokin up to
1000 AC.
4) RD1- Legacy of the Fallen: A high level 3E adventure set in 1002 AC.
Reginald of Crowlerd goes missing, and the PCs must travel to Itheldown
Island to try and find him.
5) RD2- Web of Deceit: Reginald of Crowlerd has been assasinated... but
who is responsible for this deed?
6) RD3- Halls of Power: Darokin is being brought to the brink of civil
war as a result of Reginald's assasination. Can the PCs stop this
calamity and uncover the true villains before it is too late?
7) RD4- The Price of Victory: More a supplement than an adventure, this
looks at Darokin in the aftermath of the RD modules and advances the
timeline to 1004 AC.
8) The Crisis of Darokinian Statehood- Darokin in the Great War: Exactly
what the title says; Darokin from 1005-1010 AC. The Master's invasion
was a sideshow in WotI, but now it gets its due.>>

eheh, this is too good to be true, Aaron! ;)


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967
And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:53:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: DM Subject: Ylari and Nithian pantheon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, replying to Giampaolo's proposed pantheon for Nithia, here's my own version based on HWR2, Kingdom of Nithia, GAZ2, The Emirates of Ylaruam and the old Deities and Demigods. Note that I have not incorporated all of the Egyptian deities in this pantheon because I feel this should be tailored to Mystara's unique Immortals, making some adds only in particular cases.

This is an old article I sent once to the list, but I find it appropriate to send it again with some corrections (it can also be found on my own site)


Special Thanks to Aleksei Andrievski for the first draft of the Ylari Immortals and to James Mishler for his ideas on Set, Horus and Seker


Nithian Immortals Before Al-Kalim
(BC 1,500- AC 0)

Good Ones:
Horon (Ixion) [Head]
Rathanos
Ptah (Sinbad)
Pflarr
Isiris
Geb (Terra)
Farath (Protius)
Ptahr (Kagyar)
Bast
Zephyr (Odin)
Hauron (Corona)

Dark Ones:
Thanatos
Ranivorus
Set
Hauron (Corona)


Wardens of Nithia
(Immortals who brought the downfall of Nithia after Thanatos's corruption and still watch over Nithia's dark secrets in the outer world):

Horon (Ixion) [Head]
Pflarr (The Gnoll)
Geb (Terra)
Farath (Protius)
Zephyr (Odin)
Orisis (Noumena)
Ptah (Sinbad)


Ylari Immortals After Nithia
(AC0-the present)

Immortal Guardians of the True Believers:
Al-Kalim [Head]
Farath (Protius)
Qeb (Terra)
Sinbad
Ashtiru (Asterius)
Zephyr (Odin)
Ptahr (Kagyar)
Balsam (Chardastes)
Tubak (Ixion)   

Immortal Fiends of the False Path:
Tal'ishaa (Talitha) [Head]
The Hated Mother (Corona)
Set
Ranivorus
Al-Fakish (Alphaks)
Rathanos (Corona is in fact granting spells to these deranged Magians)



Thothian Pantheon
(AC1000)

Arachne Prime [Head]*
Rathanos
Orisis (Noumena)
Horus (Ausar, Noumena's son)
Seker (Eskar, Horus's descendant)
Ptah (Sinbad)
Farath (Protius)
Geb (Terra)
Bast

* by AC1003 Arache Prime=92s mysticism will have been banned and Rathanos=92= s faith restored as the original true faith of the Pharaohs.


The Rightful Immortals

Al-Kalim - The High Prophet, The Peacekeeper, Protector of Ylaruam, Lord of Freedom, Knowledge and Warfare. The man who brought Ylaruam into the modern era by chasing out Alphatian and Thyatian overlords and earnt Ylaruam its freedom. Al-kalim was the first real hero of modern days Ylaruam, and is the most respected and followed Immortal in that area. He's considered a Prophet of the Guardian Immortals, but also a deity himself, the Protector of Ylaruam and bringer of knowledge and peace. It is also the Great Tactician, worshipped by Ylari raiders, nomads and warriors.

Ashtiru (Asterius) - Mover of the Moon, Bringer of Wealth. One of the new Guardian Immortals of Ylaruam, was introduced by the Darokininan merchants in the ninth century and his cult helped al-Kalim's takeover of Alaysia. All  merchants and many caravan guides (and all non-evil thieves and con-men) worship him to these days.

Balsam (Chardastes) - Patron of Healing. The word 'balm' comes from  his name. He is fairly neutral to Al-Kalim, since he wanted to devote  his attention mostly to Traladara. The cult of Chardastes came to Ylaruam via Selenica in the tenth century. Chardastes was revered there by Traladaran immigrants (there's also a university of medicine in Selenica) and some Ylari merchants imported his cult. He became one of the newest Immortal Guardians and now many "healers" and "doctors" raise prayers to him before curing patients.

Bast - Cat Goddess, Patroness of Rakastas, Goddess of Luck. Bast is the goddess who created rakastas, and was worshipped as patroness of luck in ancient Nithia and still is in Thothia. Her cult is not so widespread outside rakastan cultures.

Farath (Protius) - Old Man of the Sea, Lord of Waters. The patron of Al-Kalim and worshipped by many marid tribes of genie. He was happy to allow Al-Kalim take over the Emirates, since he is only interested in the seas. He's still worshipped as one of the main Guardian Immortals of Ylaruam, and is considered the bringer of life (since he's the patron of Water).

Horon/Tubak (Ixion) - Father Sun, Banisher of Darkness. He protects the Ylari against monstrous enemies and evil, and was the Patron of Just Warfare in the ancient days of Nithia. He was the most revered Immortal before Al-Kalim came out, and was likely in competition with Rathanos. Ixion has still got a minor following in Ylaruam, in the emirate of Makistan to be precise. The Makistani are of Ethengar descent, so they still honor Tubak the Lawgiver and Yamuga (Terra), while Cretia has been left out.

Horus - Holy Avenger, Patron of Justice. Horus was in mortal life Ausar, Orisis=92s own son and the first pharaoh of the Thothian colony on the Isle of Dawn. Inspired by his father, he chose to continue the Nithian expansion eastwards and managed to keep Thothia safe from the Entropics=92 corruption that doomed the homeland of the Empire. After Nithia=92s downfall in BC 500, Ausar was the only one to remember of its existance because of his father=92s guidance, and avoided making the same mistakes. He attained immortality in the Sphere of Thought after defeating a major Set=92s plot to bring mischief and death into Thothia. Now patron of Justice and inspirer of those who fight against Evil throughout all Thothia.

Isiris (Valerias) - Patroness of Love, Fertility and Arts. Much worshipped in old Nithia, lost her followers after the fall of Nithia. Nowadays Farath is revered as God of Fertility in Ylaruam, Ptahr is God of Arts, while Al-Kalim has taken over the portfolio of kindness and respect toward the fellow man.

Orisis (Noumena) - Protector of the Dead and Guardian of tombs, Patron of Knowledge, God of Nature. One of the latest addition to the outer world Nithia, Orisis was a Nithian pharaoh that attained immortality before Nithia's destruction, then helped bring its downfall once Thanatos & Co. corrupted it. However, since he had already assured the continuity of his dinasty in Thothia, his immortal status was saved. Nowadays it is still revered in Thothia and HW Nithia and by the White Druids of White Isle in Ierendi.

Pflarr - Patron of Magic and Knowledge. One of the main deities of Nithia, later caused its downfall seeing how tainted it was by Entropy and turned his attention from the outer world to the Hollow World, where is is still one of the main powers of Nithia. Nowadays his portfolio has been taken over by Al-Kalim.

Ptah/Sinbad - Traveler God, Ferryman of the Dead.  He's the Traveler God of the legends: an old Immortal who took the form of a young sailor to teach the Ylari the ways and the marvels of the world. He's much older than Al-Kalim and still revered by many adventurers and all the nomadic tribes (including many jann tribes), and represents the will to know and to find the answer to any question, going to great lengths to obtain it. He was one of the main Immortals of the Nithian pantheon, but has lost importance after Al-Kalim's coming, even though he doesn't mind. He's also acquired Orisis's portfolio in modern Ylaruam: guardianship over the dead.

Ptahr (Kagyar) - Patron of Craftsmen and Arts. Remains friendly with Al-Kalim, as dwarves and Ylari are allies. He still has some followers from the days of Nithia. Artisans and artists honor him with some rituals to craft good items and make profitable business, but he has got few real clerics.

Qeb/Geb (Terra) - Mother/Father Earth, Lord of the Desert. The Ylari have both a deep respect and a deep love for the desert, which is viewed with mixed feelings. On the one hand, it's treacherous and deadly, a foe that must be always dealt with and cannot be trusted, since it hides countless snares and perils. On the other hand, it's a place of peace and astounding beauty, where man is in direct contact with his soul and those who created him: it is a friend for those who know its ways and speak its silent language. For this reason, the Ylari worship the desert, which is embodied by Terra, who strives to protect the land (each type of terrain) and that helps those who try to survive in every condition of living. To the Ylari the desert is simply *insert arab name for "The Land"*, one of the many forms of Terra (who is the one that gives the dervishes their spells together with Al-Kalim). Terra is also greatly worshipped by all dao genies living in Ylaruam.

Rathanos - Lord of Flame, Energy and Life/Destruction. One of the greatest Immortals of ancient Nithia, he has taken over Horon's place as head of the pantheon in HW Nithia (together with Pflarr). The main deity in the Thothian pantheon after AC1003 (when the cult of Arachne Prime is outlawed), he is also still honored by efreets in the Alaysian desert. Unfortunately for Rathanos however, his faith in Ylaruam is now banned, since some of his mages and clerics put it too far and began using violence to convert other to his cause, burning many followers "to let them return to the Great Flame". This way the Magian Fire Worshippers earned the populace=92s contempt and became a secret sect. Not exactly on the best of terms with Al-Kalim and sworn enemy of Corona, who has perverted his Magian followers (she has driven them crazy).

Seker - Holy Light, Banisher of Darkness. One of Ausar=92s (Horus) great grand-nephews, Eskar sought his destiny as a wandering priest, battling the forces of evil in the name of Orisis and Horus. He traveled out of Thothia and even to the farthest reaches of the former Nithian empire, in Davania, where he discovered a civilization similar to the Thothian one prospering in the Aryptian Basin. Here he became a great prophet and fought against Corona=92s and Set=92s attempts to corrupt this culture. He couldn=92t prevent the destruction of the former kingdom, but grouped the survivors and founded a new one near the Aryptian basin around BC200. He later attained immortality in the Sphere of Time and is now patron of Light and Goddness both in Thothia and in Eskarnak (the new Aryptian kingdom).

Zephyr (Odin) - Lord of Storms and Air, He Who Walks Among Clouds. Many djiins honor him, as well as many sha'irs and travelers. He was one of the Guardian Immortals who destroyed Nithia for its sins and who still watches over its dark secrets.



The Dark Fiends

Al-Fakish (Alphaks) - Lord of Destruction and Violence. He had human sacrifices in the past. Not a widely followed Immortal, but he helped the Ylari against Alphatian oppressors. He was worshipped during the Alphatian occupation, but he doesn't have many followers now: Alphatia is gone (after WotI) and no Alphatian outposts remain near Ylaruam. The only interest Alphaks has in Ylaruam is Barimoor. In this case the only goal of the Followers of Al-Fakish may be:
a)      to overthrow the "evil Barimoor", who's trying to plot the downfall of the Ylari;
b)      to rally Barimoor and plan the downfall of all Alphatians remaining in the Known World.

Hauron (Corona) - The Hated Mother, Lady of Darkness and Diseases. Formerly a good deity of the Nithian pantheon, Hauron was later corrupted by Thanatos and switched sides going from Sphere of Thought to that of Entropy. Her greatest trick was undoing the Nithian empire from inside (with Thanatos's and Ranivorus's help) without the other powers noticing it until it was too late. This is why Corona is usually referred to as Thanatos's secret ally. Former patroness of Healing and Guardian of the Dead, she finally let the doors of the kingdom of the dead swung open and cursed the land with diseases. Orisis first discovered her treachery and confronted her, but it was already too late to save Nithia. Her faith later resurfaced in western Ylaruam, bringing back the dead cults of Set and Ranivorus and unifying their followers under the same banner. Her influence has spread in nearby Darokin during these centuries, where secret sects of loyal cultists are always looking for long forgotten artifacts of the past to bring her and her =93sons=94 into this world. (Falsely) Portrayed as the mother of both evil deities, she is now patroness of the Dark side of mortals, diseases and evil undead in general.

Ranivorus - Lord of Beasts, Hatred and Insanity. The first gnoll to attain immortality, this foul Entropic conspired with Thanatos and Corona to corrupt Nithia and still strives to bring insanity in this land and in Ylaruam.

Set - Lord of Evil, Revenge and Treason. An old Immortal, formerly a necromancer king of Taymora, later spread his influence over Nithia drawn by researches of scholars and other Nithians, who dabbled in dark magics and sought for more power. He is currently banished in all Nithian civilizations and in Ylaruam as well,  but ancient cults are die hard and his beastly sons still slither in the sands of Ylaruam and Thothia. Sworn enemy of Orisis and his sons.

Tal'ishaa (Talitha) - Lady of Assassins, Thieves and Deception. Her faith was imported by the Alphatian overlords around III century AC and quickly merged with the native Ylari secret sects, appealing to the most merciless assassins and thieves for her cold sadism. She=92s patroness of stealth and usually associated with murders, tortures and theft (and that=92s why many tribes of desert brigands pay homage to her nowadays). Many shady viziers also worship her to gain the upper hand on their lords, using them as puppets or removing them as they see fit. Rumors have the Kin Faction working together with adepts of Tal=92ishaa to cause the downfall of the Preceptors Faction and of the current Sultan.

Thanatos - Lord of Death and Suffering. The main cause of Nithia's downfall, his worship is outlawed in Nithia, Ylaruam and Thothia as he represents the evil aspect of Death. However, many secret cultists still pay homage to him to bring even more death and suffering to their civilizations.

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

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******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:34:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: ramhog Subject: Re: APOLOGIES In-Reply-To: <3B1BD893.AE9AF3CE@tin.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I am really sooooo sorry. I should be beaten by Geoff until my brain >(anyway not so useful) will drop out of my left ear, and begin to beg for >forgiveness. > The idea of a brain begging for mercy is intriguing to me. ;-) VVH -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:14 +0200 DM writes: Aaron E Nowack wrote: >I must say I stored all your Darokin files in my HD, Aaron, so I'm really glad >u managed to finish the description of all the merchant houses :) Thanks! I just can't believe it took me so long to get it finished... >eheh, this is too good to be true, Aaron! ;) Well, you know what they say about things that are too good to be true... alert readers will notice that this is nearly the same as my planned projects from about a year ago... Seriously, I do plan to write all this, but it'll take a while, particularly since a lot of my spare time is going to writing anime fanfiction instead of Mystara stuff. However, we'll have to see how it goes... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:17:47 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: MYSTARA: Puzzles & Riddles for players On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:12:38 -0700, Joe Kelly wrote: >I saw this one a now defunct website: > >I have a head and a tail, yet no body, what am I? > >answer: >A coin > "I am all, I am none. Who am I?" "A mirror" (stolen from the Dungeon Master computer game). - "When is a door not a door?" "When it is ajar" (stolen from one of the J.R.R. Tolkien classics, don't remember which one, but I think it was 'The Hobbit') - "When is a game not a game?" "When it is afoot!" (Thought that one up myself with inspiration from the above and some Sherlock Holmes influence). Just thought I'd add a few (and prove I can write relatively short emails!) - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:50:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Eshriel Orcslayer Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if you need... I'm more than willing to help... I have run versions of the Master's Invasion many times ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:03:45 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Too many rules On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:01:16 -0400, Geoff Gander wrote: >Angelo wrote: > >>This is one of the things I LOVE about OD&D. Players don't have to know >>things like feats. In fact, I try to keep my players in the dark about >>rules as much as possible. As far as they're concerned, they're playing a >>character, in a game, period. I tell them what they get to roll when they >>cast a spell, pretty easy. It makes their playing alot more natural. > >I tend to fall into this school of thought as well, perhaps partly due to >my years as a Paranoia GM (Knowledge of the rules is treason). My players >know how to roll saves, calculate their expenses and movement rates, >perform skill checks, and attack enemies, but they are more than happy, it >seems, to leave the more arcane elements of the rules to me. Suits me >just fine. :-) > I agree. I keep the xp amounts of characters secret IMC Mystara campaign. That way I'll never have the annoying discussions of people talking like "my wizard needs exactly 13,364 (and a half!) xp for the level, so... let me see... I think we want to meet four trolls and a frost giant, because with the four of us that total gives me exactly enough..." blah, blah, blah. I'm sure you all know the rest... To be fair, it was never that bad IMC, but I have had people who wanted to look up monster stats in the MM just so they could speculate about what monsters would give them enough xp to reach that next level (as if I'd let them!). By keeping xp secret, I exorcised that particular Tanar'ri from my game (and saved myself of the bother of actually totalling up how much xp the characters earn under the rules...). When they have enough xp, I just tell them and then they can go ahead and train for the next level... >Geoff, the DM known to fudge rolls for the purposes of plot development > That makes two of us! And there is also the old trick of just rolling some random dice when the players don't expect it, just to throw them off guard! "Gah! He's rolling dice *now*??? What's happening. Quick wizards - cast those Fire Shields NOW!!!" ;) - The Stalker ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:38:43 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: storytelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: the rules argument, thread that will not die, and related topics, maybe the debated should focus on storytelling in the detailed world of Mystara versus types of game mechanics to assist the storytelling. Mystara is a world that makes it easy to create NPCs with detailed interesting backgrounds, and players seem to care more about what happens to NPCs rather than most D&D where the NPCs are at best clue generators and at worst meat puppets to be destroyed. Related to this, xp for monsters (or anything else) should vary with the challenge of the encounter, hence xp awards for story points in more modern D&D (and something similar in some OD&D modules). Thus getting a catankerous old miller to move a cart that blocks a pass crucial to future missions in the game might be worth more than an easy kill of a tough monster. See, the combat resolution and even the spell casting rules can vary between people's Mystara parallel worlds (campaigns) but the basic flavour would be much more similar in most of them. Karameikos stays as the Kingdom of Adventure, Thyatis as Byzantium, etc.etc. Perhaps we should therefore focus on "rules" for good storytelling - this would give us something attractive to the whole of the D&D cosmos and make Mystara more mainstream by default. Mystara can in some ways be reduced to a set of "givens", and these givens should be promulgated I think as Mystara was a genuinely superior starter world for players. My wife and her sisters had no contact with anybody else in gaming circles and rose to be top-knotch gamers purely from buying the OD&D sets and adventures. 15 years later it's still the only campaign that they share jokes about and laugh and carry on about. Unlike Forgotten Realms, the default story people tell about Mystara is rarely if ever negative - rather than it being an anecdote about a dodgy rules call or an impossible NPC, it is likely to be a remembered folktale from a corner of the Known World, or a really classic wilderness adventure in the Wild Lands, memories of a distinctive NPC encounter, and so on. One of the things making this true is that the story of the people of Mystara is also the grander story of the world of Mystara. There are planetary-level events always unfolding, and the player characters - all the characters - are actors on a very grand stage. Sometimes a player character might have the honour of being temporarily the linchpin of history; at other times all of the player characters' adventures are occurring at the periphery of great events. Detailed backstories and history imply an equally detailed future. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:55:04 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Eshriel Orcslayer Subject: Storytelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -snipped from the Ancient One "Re: the rules argument, thread that will not die, and related topics, maybe the debated should focus on storytelling in the detailed world of Mystara versus types of game mechanics to assist the storytelling." Probably the most intelligent thing I have heard on the subject -Eshriel "Alfhiem shall not be lost forever" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: OD&D Dominions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Angelo Bertolli" To: Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] OD&D Dominions > I'm not very happy with the cost of troops in the RC. Especially since a > standard ration (1 week of food) is 1 gp. So these people supposedly live > on 1 week of food an entire month? Doesn't seem reasonable to me. I use some info in the CoM World Maker's Guide to help w. dominion economics. The cost for adventuring rations would be considerably higher than the cost of food given to troops. A peasant family of 5 will produce 5 gp worth of labor per month, with 50% of that going toward food, which leaves 2.5 gp to pay their taxes and tithes, plus any other expenses or savings. So, the cost for feeding 1 person for a month would be 0.5 gp. A peasant foot soldier would actually be paid only the 5 sp (using 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp), but the ruler's cost would still be 1 gp/month. Thus, better trained soldiers would have more take home pay and more money to spend eating out, drinking, etc. I use the pay rates as per level fees as well, with 2nd or 3rd level officers costing double and triple, respectively. > > Also, what about other kinds of troops from other parts of the world? I > have a player who has based himself in the broken lands and tries to hire > goblins and orcs for his armies. How much should those cost? Look at the 2 right-most columns of the mercenaries chart and you'll see prices for both! > > What about the experience gain for a ruler? Do they get experience based on > how much taxes they collect? The xp for gold works with adventuring, but do > we really want to reward those who raise taxes in the same way? According to the RC, yes, but those rules are flawed for both xp gain and income from dominions, IMO. CoM basically said, "Don't use the RC for dominion pop. growth or income, the rules are wrong." The CoM rules are pretty good, and Bruce did some good stuff for Dragon that is also in the Vaults. I use a hybrid of these that works well IMC. As for XP, I pretty much chucked out xp for ruling, but I don't give xp for gold or monsters either, only for goals achieved and good role-playing. Dan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:57:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: larry lamb Subject: Re: MYSTARA: my D&D's bigger than your D&D, etc.etc.etc. In-Reply-To: <3B1CA175.2F01@hotkey.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ROFLMAS...this was grate! Hehehe...got to end more arugments like that.....hehehe.... --- The Ancient One wrote: > Let's stop the D&D rules arguments... they really > are vapid now. > > Let's just, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, agree that > OD&D man has a good > point about 3e feeding off the political > disenfranchisement of the > bourgeoisie and that 3e man is right when he says > that OD&D begets, as > if by a law of nature, its own abnegation. > > Or the song not by THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS: > > D&D Man D&D Man > Does whatever a D&D can > What's he look like? > It's not important. > D&D Man D&D Man > > D&D Man D&D Man > D&D Man hates OD&D Man > They have a fight > D&D Man neither wins nor loses... > D&D Man D&D Man > > Hasbro Man Hasbro Man > Owner of the entire universe man > Usually kind to smaller man > Powerful Man > Hasbro Man > > Mystara Man Mystara Man > His gameworld's consigned to the garbage can > Who came up with Mystara Man > Degraded Man Mystara Man > > Hasbro Man Hasbro Man > They have a fight > Hasbro Man wins > Powerful Man > Hasbro Man > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== The "Fighting Bunnys" main site: http://www.angelfire.com/on2/myrobotechgames/index.html To group site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:37:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: MYSTARA: Puzzles & Riddles for players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those are some pretty hard riddles man! I don't think any of my players could figure those out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Ancient One" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 1:59 AM Subject: MYSTARA: Puzzles & Riddles for players > Here are some relatively quick puzzles & riddles for use with players: ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:53:44 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Play the game however you want, but I'm pretty sure most people would rather play in a game where magic-users didn't get all the same spells. And I don't think role-playing should be enforced in the rules. I really don't see how making Raise Dead take away a point of the caster's CON takes away from role-playing. You can explain it as religion, or however you and your gaming group wants to. That's the beauty of the game, it's all up to you. > This is hardly true. Can you give me one good reason, based on the merits of > the question rather than on some abstract notion of game balance, why > magicians cannot use spells of healing and life? Based on your own argument, don't you think that the panache and general idea of mages is to more "black" magic than "good" magic? Um, the rule about clerics not using edged weapons comes from the medeival Church. The rule in the Church (whether it was truly kept or not) was that clergy were not allowed to shed blood. Most of the clergy DID use crushing weapons and basically thought, "it's not my fault if I accidently shed blood, I was using a blunt weapon." It was a loophole. But I'd consider it good role-playing basis. However, as the game expanded, it's pretty obvious that there are many more religions that need to be considered. > How does this support role playing? Whom does a cleric worship? When must > they perform their daily ceremonies so that they can be in a state of grace? > What are the strictures of their temple, so that they know what they can and > cannot do? To whom do they pray? I don't really care about it. Sorry, I know it's not satisfactory to you, but that's how I like to play the game. > My personal rule, "Everything I do must have a reason that can be discovered > (perhaps with impossible difficulty) by the characters." I'm completely the opposite. I let the player's handle the "why's." The advantage is that it adds mystery to the game. The disadvantage is that I'm not always ready for them when they actually SHOULD know something. If there ever comes a point where they could discover something, I make it up then. Over the years I've gotten really slow at thinking fast in the D&D area, and I don't have time to worry about things that will never come up. I try to concentrate my energies on the parts of the game that really need to get done, like making adventures, and I even have a hard time doing that. I say, if you're able to do that, try to get your stuff published. Try to be as prolific as possible, and write your stuff down for everyone to see. Angelo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:53:19 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Ylari and Nithian pantheon In-Reply-To: <200106050704.f5574Yl23918@uta.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a small question: In my campaign I modelled Pflarr as the deity of the Hutaakans, the jackal-headed race that took over the Traladaran lands before the invasion of Nithian Gnolls. Pflarr's Hutaakan worshippers fled the lands to their sacred valley during the invasion, so they should be pretty much opposed to gnoll gods. However, you mentioned Pflarr to be "the Gnoll". I'm intrigued, do you have the Hutaakan connection of Pflarr at all in your campaign? Yours, Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 03:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course, you must play the game as you see fit. I was arguing game philosophy, and not attempting to impose my views (even if it did sound that way, a bad habit from years of teaching, I suppose). I was not suggesting that role playing be enforced in the rules, whatever that means. It is a role-playing game however. Thus the purpose of the game is to role play. Thus the rules must support role play rather than bog it down in system mechanics. It is not a wargame, it is not a board game, or a computer adventure game. All of these are fun to play, but are fundamentally different than a true role-playing game. I submit that role playing games are story-based, rather than mechanics-based. > Play the game however you want, but I'm pretty sure most people would rather > play in a game where magic-users didn't get all the same spells. And I > don't think role-playing should be enforced in the rules. > > I really don't see how making Raise Dead take away a point of the caster's > CON takes away from role-playing. You can explain it as religion, or > however you and your gaming group wants to. That's the beauty of the game, > it's all up to you. I simply do not understand why the cleric would lose a point of CON for those spells and for no others. It makes it seem like a device to make them not want to use it. If you want to restrict its use, my suggestion is to make it a secret power available only to a few. Or require a lengthy ritual that can only be done in the presence of an artifact of the Immortal, or some other thing that is rooted in the role-play, in the story. Make it different for each religion. This sort of thing adds color and spice to a game. Instead of, "I cast Raise Dead," you get, "I kneel before the Sword of Karaash and pray to Raise our fallen comrade." > > This is hardly true. Can you give me one good reason, based on the merits > of > > the question rather than on some abstract notion of game balance, why > > magicians cannot use spells of healing and life? > > Based on your own argument, don't you think that the panache and general > idea of mages is to more "black" magic than "good" magic? That depends on the mage. Why can't a mage be a weilder of white magic? After all, white and black are mostly dependent upon the intent of the magic. Using a fireball to kill the guards to steal a shipment of gold for personal gain is certainly an evil act; the same situation where the guards are holding innocent people prisoner against unjust execution is another situation. It is the same as the difference between a contract killer and a soldier; one if for personal gain and one is for war. The contract killer is seen as doing evil to promote evil, the soldier is seen as doing evil for good. Another variant: A healing is performed to prevent a comrade from dying; this is a good act. To heal a prisoner so that they do not die, so that you can continue to torture them for fun is evil. A spell is a tool, perhaps even a weapon, but it is not intrinsically evil or good. > Um, the rule about clerics not using edged weapons comes from the medeival > Church. The rule in the Church (whether it was truly kept or not) was that > clergy were not allowed to shed blood. Most of the clergy DID use crushing > weapons and basically thought, "it's not my fault if I accidently shed > blood, I was using a blunt weapon." It was a loophole. But I'd consider it > good role-playing basis. However, as the game expanded, it's pretty obvious > that there are many more religions that need to be considered. Indeed, how many religions in Mystara are based upon the Catholic Church. Indeed, even the Catholic Church had its fighting orders, the Knight's Templar come immediately to mind.. Also, most mace-heads are metal flanges that jut out at various angles, there is no way that such a thing would not shed blood (smashing through bone in the process); and no one would assume otherwise. This is taking a stated (and hypocritcal) ideal and making it a rule when it was never the reality. Tell me that the victims of the inquisition did not have their blood shed (some of their instruments of torture are truly hair raising to see). In fact the modern Catholic Church is far closer to the ideal than the medievel version ever was. Most of the religions of Mystara are based around Immortals who are known for their various weapons. Can you really see a cleric of Valerias being restricted to a club? > > How does this support role playing? Whom does a cleric worship? When must > > they perform their daily ceremonies so that they can be in a state of > grace? > > What are the strictures of their temple, so that they know what they can > and > > cannot do? To whom do they pray? > > I don't really care about it. Sorry, I know it's not satisfactory to you, > but that's how I like to play the game. It doesn't matter if it is satisfactory to me, as long as it is satisfactory to your players, and to the story you are telling. If someone in your game is a cleric and you do not have these things thought out, then you are both limiting their options for role play, and you are giving them a free ride when it comes to abilities. > > My personal rule, "Everything I do must have a reason that can be > discovered > > (perhaps with impossible difficulty) by the characters." > > I'm completely the opposite. I let the player's handle the "why's." The > advantage is that it adds mystery to the game. The disadvantage is that I'm > not always ready for them when they actually SHOULD know something. If > there ever comes a point where they could discover something, I make it up > then. Over the years I've gotten really slow at thinking fast in the D&D > area, and I don't have time to worry about things that will never come up. > I try to concentrate my energies on the parts of the game that really need > to get done, like making adventures, and I even have a hard time doing that. There is great mystery in my game, I do not simply tell players what's what. They have to discover that for themselves. In some cases I take a player's idea when it makes sense, fits the world structure I have created, and is something I have not already ruled on (and does not contradict such a ruling). I have developed many adventures based upon the requirement of clerics to serve their temples. These are no shallow, "Go to the ruins and defeat the great undead..." They are more like, "We require you to go to Selenica and purchase for us a particular cloth made by Malvernus the Weaver so that we may prepare for our Fall Harvest Ceremony." They would be most likely to choose the most adventurous cleric to perform this feat, since they would be most likely to get the job done. An annual ceremony of this nature would be very important to the religion, and this could lead to stumbling upon a plot by the Cult of Thanatos to disrupt the Ceremony. Without such details, these sorts of adventures never get developed. > I say, if you're able to do that, try to get your stuff published. Try to > be as prolific as possible, and write your stuff down for everyone to see. Working on it. I am developing a game system with Mystara as one of the playtest worlds. When I am done I will publish the material at my webpage. Anyone interested can go there: www.borigon.homestead.com Enjoy! George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 02:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: hafnir Subject: FW: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Game balance in the absence of story leads to absurd results. If the > only reason that magics users can't perform raise dead spells is > because the rules say so, then there is a serious problem with the rules. > ... You're right, it probably does deserve some kind of explanation why the spell lists look so different between the mage and the cleric, and the rules never really give one. I could think of a number of possible explanations, though none of these are by any means dogma, or even necessarily the reasons I would use in my own campaign! They're just ideas: 1) Clerics already have healing/protection/divination magic, so mages might have wanted to focus on other areas of magic. 2) Human magic without immortal intervention may simply not be capable of easily performing the magics clerics specialize in. One of my strongest arguments for this would be the fact that "Heal", the mage's "Cureall", is I believe a 9th level Mage spell, while the cleric's "Cureall" is only 6th level. Then again, "Raise Dead" is actually "simpler" than "Cureall", since it's 5th level, so that kinda blows that theory a little. Actually, I've always been irked by how they go to all the trouble to make mage's so different from clerics, then at the last minute (9th spell level) they give mages the option to cast "Heal", which is more than equivalent to all the cleric's cure spells, minus a few specialty spells like "Restore" and "Raise Dead" or "Raise Dead Fully". So this largely supports your theory that mages _can_ cast cleric spells (and incidentally, the Wizardry spell gives clerics a limited stab at mage craft)! But it doesn't explain the glaring hole that "Raise Dead" is not listed as available to mages. Read on. 3) "Raise Dead" may _require_ immortal intervention. My argument goes once someone's dead, in some pantheons an immortal may have custody or ownership over the soul, so basically "Raise Dead" could be a case of one immortal (by proxy, through the cleric) going after a soul belonging to another immortal! If a mage cast it, it'd be a _mortal_ going after the soul owned by another immortal, which could make the mage's "Raise Dead" a very dangerous spell, perhaps more dangerous than combined Contact Outer Plane or casting Gate to contact an immortal! Actually, I kinda like this argument: "Sure you can raise the dead, you just have to make some wonderful creative peace offering to the offended immortal!" I figure it should cost around 10000gp per level or Hit Die of the deceased.... ;) :) 4) One last note, I think it says this in the spell description, but if nothing else I rule in my campaign that a "Wish" spell can duplicate the effects of any spell, whether a Magic User spell or any other mortal spell. [Note: I even count it as a perfectly worded wish - I argue such a basic task as using "Wish" to cast a different spell must be one of the very first things learned or mastered by the mage when he learns or acquires "Wish", so I assume he knows how to do it properly. Anything past that, however, and I'm just evil at twisting the wording of a wish...I relish the task with passion.... ;) ] Anyway, this includes "Raise Dead", so hey, a mage can cast "Raise Dead" as a 9th level Magic-User spell. :) (assuming he's worthy of casting "Wish", that is. :) ) Anyway, that's enough for now. > If a detail does not support the role play, then it is not necessary. > If a rule impairs role play, then it must be gotten rid of. Obviously, Depends on the nature of your campaign. Obviously, role-playing is important in your campaign! :) Take heart, it's very important in mine as well, and probably the thing that attracts me most to the game. Nevertheless, there are people who enjoy the game quite a lot at the purely fantasy swords & sorcery level, or like the neat dungeon mazes and puzzles, and their higher level equivalents. I admit, I really dig that stuff, too! So we have to find the right balance for each campaign between usually fast-paced action and slower-paced role-playing, as well as the other challenges (i.e. puzzles) many players like (and just in case, I know combat can be slow at times, and role-playing fast-paced, but I think on average it's usually the other way around). And this means I think sometimes rules that impede role-playing but improve other aspects of the game (more often than not this means improving speed, but it can be other things, like decreasing complexity) can be valuable. You may miss a cool role-playing opportunity, but you may instead get quicker to an even cooler role-playing opportunity! Referring now to my own weekly campaign, we only get together once a week for like 2-3 hours. If I took the time to go into gory detail every time they're in town between adventures, and every last detail about how they get from adventure A to adventure B, these times would almost _become_ an adventure! But the thing is, with our limited time, I'd rather run them through the real adventure! For instance, the Weapon Mastery rules are almost begging the characters to go through a lot of hoops to get each promotion. I put them through some, but I'm just not interested in figuring out where they're going to find a teacher to give them say Skilled level in the axe. So when they ask I say, "Go to a good-sized town like Kelvin or Specularum - I'll assume you find some lonely dwarf who'll take care of you. So pay up!" I could roll all the random encounters for the trip and have them look through bars and such ... it could even be a little adventure, but we're talking about Skilled in the Axe - who cares?! :) I'd rather be moving them on to run Castle Amber or something! :) Honestly, the same goes for raising a dead 2nd level party member, but in this case I might role-play their chat with the priest for literally a minute or two, or less. With our discussion on this list, I'm going to consider adding additional expenses besides the gold, but they're going to be simple - like I said, Castle Amber calls, and they've only got 2-3 hours per week to play! :) I'm convinced my players not only understands, but wholeheartedly agree - they can't wait to slap that Etienne biyatch around! ;) I mean, save him. :) So anyway, I admire you and in some ways am jealous if you have the time with your campaign to detail a lot of the situations my campaign does not have time for. Your campaign may be far richer for it. But I think my players are getting out of our campaign most of the level of detail and motivation they are looking for. But I'm sure we can always improve - as I shake out what the "final" list of characters will be (i.e. darwin off the weak ;) ) and as these characters develop over time, I'll probably spend more time role-playing more of the details - I'll make them go to some effort to find a Grand Master in that Axe. :) Then again, duh, Dengar and bring a lot of shiny gems. ;) hafnir. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:09:08 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When we started our campaign we did have our fair share of PC deaths, some of which have been immortalised into classic anecdotes. But when our campaign went further and I started to make plans about the future, I fell into an all-too-easy trap. My campaign became too much entwined into the personalities of the PCs Thus I started pulling my punches, or giving opportunities of raising a bit too often. Some of them were legitimate in my mind, like Etienne Amberville wishing a bunch of PCs back to life at the end of X2 - but that adventure is supposed to be outlandish. Well, this situation of course became a problem later on. I was able to remedy the situation when the PCs broke up for two years to look after their dominions and engage on personal quests (actually it took over 2 years of real time, but that's how it is with aging players). When the PCs had to travel around with their much lower-level followers and friends, death became an issue once again. During their "solo" adventures all five PCs had to stare into the mouth of death many times. There were a couple of deaths and raisings, but they were in exceptional circumstances, involving deity interests. And also, they simply handle battles very well. One example of near-death experiences: The thief PC stormed the stronghold of the Beholder Azaziel with his friends. He had exceptionally bad luck, and in a few turns most of his allies had been stoned, disintegrated, fear-induced etc. The thied Yuri had to face Azaziel alone or leave his friends (inclding his pregnant wife) to certain death. Surprisingly he stood his ground and managed to kill the beholder in a melee! After succeeding in 27 (!) saving throws, every single one of them capable of killing him if they failed, Yuri really felt alive. (Note: I also threw all of the hit rolls of Azaziel in sight of the PC to avoid feelings of punch-pulling. (I also developed a system for myself to keep up the campaign: Any dead PC could in theory be replaced with an NPC already acquainted with the main plot, but he/she would be much less able to handle the coming threats, and a lot of valuable info would die with the PC.) Antoher system I devised was to restrict the use of Raise Dead in the future (during the solos the cleric PC gained use of the spell). I tied it to the skill Ceremony. Each use of the spell will require a ceremonic consultation from the deity - the result depends on the skill roll, the way the ceremony is roleplayed, a possible offering (money won't do, except for Asterius), and especially the circumstances of death. Now that the PCs are back together again they seem to have regained a healthy respect for life. Yes, they do have a two charges of raise dead-like magic left from their solo encounters, but it is unlikely that they'll get any more soon. I am relieved, and I have learned from my youthful errors. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:32:46 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Martin Mathes Subject: website has moved hi, i have moved my website from this unspellable university adress to: http://www.12move.de/home/master_of_disaster/ during the move some files were added and some were updated. Fighting Orders (text) Flying Pony Express (text) Magic Items (text) Tel Akbir (text & maps) Western Thanegioth Archipelago (text & map) My Mystaran Monsters & Creatures (not many yet) comments are welcome martin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Cleric vs. Mage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For the Mystara setting (how it has been written up and followed) MU's could emulate any other spell with respectable research. Glantri is a nation of mages that learn many spells, the majority of all mages on Brun. Since their are no clerics allowed in Glantri, not many mages emulate clerical magic. If I was a mage in a country that practices magic with no healing, I would make a tidy profit from emulating clerical spells; but the smart Glantrians do not. Why? It's pure and simple, why waste memorizing a spell of healing if you may not need it, when you can make a device, scroll, or potion, to do the same and have a permanent device readily available when you do need it and use your spell slots on more useful things. Does this take away from clerics? I think not, it takes allot of time and gold to research magic and create items, clerics (depending on how you play) are given their spells or learn them from their superiors (free or not, they are much simpler to learn than MU magic). Clerics in Mystara have been limited on their spell choice, questing for new spells (ones that are not readily available from any book) or waiting for their immortal patron to grant them one. The balance of this is the ease at learning their spell list, I believe the only reference of limiting clerical spell choice was mentioned for knights having to pay for training to learn clerical magic. IMC mages can cast any kind of magic, but the smart way to play a mage is to create many magical items ahead of time or cast long effect spells ahead of time or both. This makes mages more powerful, but they spend allot of time and gold, and need to collect the gold before they could do this. When they adventure they have to know ahead of time the spells they would need, pretty impossible in most situations. Clerics, on the other hand, have always had an open spell list, they can cast the spell they need when they need it, as long as they have an open slot for the appropriate spell (and haven't p****d off any immortal of their liking). Also, in Glantri, the necromancy craft handles, very well, the odds of a mage to resurrect the dead. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Too many rules The Stalker wrote: >That makes two of us! And there is also the old trick of just rolling some >random dice when the players don't expect it, just to throw them off >guard! "Gah! He's rolling dice *now*??? What's happening. Quick wizards - >cast those Fire Shields NOW!!!" PCs had, so they won't bother the next encounter> ;) :-) Heh heh That's another trick, encouraged by the folks at West End Games (for Paranoia). I have done it for D&D, with my players perking up slightly as a result, wondering what I might be up to. Of course, since I've also been known to dunp my own creations into the game randomly (ie: lesser servitors of the OBs, etc.), I know at least one player now associates sudden note taking (another good DM trick, IMO) and dice rolling as a sign that something nasty is going to pop up. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Too good to pass up (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <200106051301.JAA25821@freenet10.carleton.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here's an ESPN column that's not very Mystara-related, but D&D-related and downright funny - Phillies OF Doug Glanville claims CRPGs (namely the death of a dwarven paladin in a D&D game) led him to seek revenge on Curt Schilling, leading to a 2-homer game recently. http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1201283.html Glanville says we need to analyze the psychological after-effects of Nintendo or even old C-64 games on major league baseball. FWIW, Glanville's also an avid tabletop board-game player and tabletop dice game players often have backgrounds in RPGs as well. - Mischa Lisa McCaffrey, wife of Broncos receiver Ed McCaffrey, on her husband's concussion: "When he didn't remember our anniversary, I knew he was OK." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Too many rules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Gander [mailto:au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA] The Stalker wrote: >That makes two of us! And there is also the old trick of just rolling some >random dice when the players don't expect it, just to throw them off >guard! "Gah! He's rolling dice *now*??? What's happening. Quick wizards - >cast those Fire Shields NOW!!!" PCs had, so they won't bother the next encounter> ;) :-) Heh heh Geoff wrote: >That's another trick, encouraged by the folks at West End Games (for >Paranoia). I have done it for D&D, with my players perking up slightly as >a result, wondering what I might be up to. Of course, since I've also >been known to dunp my own creations into the game randomly (ie: lesser >servitors of the OBs, etc.), I know at least one player now associates >sudden note taking (another good DM trick, IMO) and dice rolling as a sign >that something nasty is going to pop up. >Geoff I do the same, I also improvise dice results that never existed or failed. Another 'trick of the trade' is to roll secretly the real results of player rolls, like thief skills or mu's learning a new spell or creating an item. 'gee, I searched for traps and found none, where did this dart come from?' We all know that a thief that fails their find traps roll makes the fighter open the chest, and just how did the thief know he failed anyway? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: GenCon Hi all, Who here is going to GenCon? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 23:56:40 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Cleric vs. Mage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher Cherrington wrote: > > For the Mystara setting (how it has been written up and followed) MU's could > emulate any other spell with respectable research. Glantri is a nation of > mages that learn many spells, the majority of all mages on Brun. Since > their are no clerics allowed in Glantri, not many mages emulate clerical > magic. If I was a mage in a country that practices magic with no healing, I > would make a tidy profit from emulating clerical spells; but the smart > Glantrians do not. Why? It's pure and simple, why waste memorizing a spell > of healing if you may not need it, when you can make a device, scroll, or > potion, to do the same and have a permanent device readily available when > you do need it and use your spell slots on more useful things. Does this > take away from clerics? I think not, it takes allot of time and gold to > research magic and create items, clerics (depending on how you play) are > given their spells or learn them from their superiors (free or not, they are > much simpler to learn than MU magic). Clerics in Mystara have been limited > on their spell choice, questing for new spells (ones that are not readily > available from any book) or waiting for their immortal patron to grant them > one. The balance of this is the ease at learning their spell list, I > believe the only reference of limiting clerical spell choice was mentioned > for knights having to pay for training to learn clerical magic. IMC mages > can cast any kind of magic, but the smart way to play a mage is to create > many magical items ahead of time or cast long effect spells ahead of time or > both. This makes mages more powerful, but they spend allot of time and > gold, and need to collect the gold before they could do this. When they > adventure they have to know ahead of time the spells they would need, pretty > impossible in most situations. Clerics, on the other hand, have always had > an open spell list, they can cast the spell they need when they need it, as > long as they have an open slot for the appropriate spell (and haven't p****d > off any immortal of their liking). Also, in Glantri, the necromancy craft > handles, very well, the odds of a mage to resurrect the dead. Thing is, if the souls of Mystarans go somewhere when their body is untenanted through death or astral projection etc. then the Immortals, individually or together, would ALWAYS be involved in the resurrection of someone - in fact pseudo-Cleric Mages in Glantri would be actual Clerics, albeit of Clerics of unnamed Immortals (or Old Ones). There could be a much longer-term agenda in Mages "discovering" clerical type spells, in that different Immortals or similar beings could be attempting an in-game revision similar to rules revisions for us gamers - ie changing the nature of a class, for some reason of their own... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:06:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: GenCon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where and when? Geoff Gander wrote: >Hi all, >Who here is going to GenCon? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:22:38 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > Seriously, I do plan to write all this, but it'll take a while, > particularly since a lot of my spare time is going to writing anime > fanfiction instead of Mystara stuff. However, we'll have to see how it > goes... > Looks good. You could even dig the old MBR newspapers for some ideas... I'm sure they'd make for an... interesting alternate timeline :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:22:38 +0300 Solmyr writes: > Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > > > Seriously, I do plan to write all this, but it'll take a while, > > particularly since a lot of my spare time is going to writing > anime > > fanfiction instead of Mystara stuff. However, we'll have to see > how it > > goes... > > > Looks good. You could even dig the old MBR newspapers for some > ideas... > I'm sure they'd make for an... interesting alternate timeline :) Oh, MBR has been mined extensively for ideas in all this. I'm sure you recognized some of the names for the next generation of merchant lords, as well as some of the personalities of some of the current ones... I'm also sure that you will be able to attach great signifigance to the statement that one of the villains of the RD module series is named Roger Attleson... Oh, BTW... Solmyr, do you happen to recall the names of the players of the Darokinian merchant houses from MBR? I'd like to give them... "credit" for their role in inspiring this whole thing. ;) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:07:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hey Aleksei, I am using your MBR newsletters IMC and they are working = great, my player's love it! Great Job! JK Wolf >>> solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI 06/05/01 08:22AM >>> Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > Seriously, I do plan to write all this, but it'll take a while, > particularly since a lot of my spare time is going to writing anime > fanfiction instead of Mystara stuff. However, we'll have to see how it > goes... > Looks good. You could even dig the old MBR newspapers for some ideas... I'm sure they'd make for an... interesting alternate timeline :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi=20 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:23:08 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House Comments: cc: Porphyrogenitus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Kelly wrote: > > hey Aleksei, I am using your MBR newsletters IMC and they are working great, my player's love it! Great Job! > JK Wolf > Excellent, I'm glad they are still useful to people. They are a good way to create world-shattering chaos in your Mystara campaign :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:36:54 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Too many rules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We all know that a thief that fails their find traps roll makes the fighter > open the chest, and just how did the thief know he failed anyway? > Well, I simply roll for the thief and then I tell him what he found. The thief then watches his ability score and tries to guess wheter his guess may be reliable or not, but he will never be sure of it. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:47:32 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: GenCon Multizar wrote: >Where and when? It's taking place in Milwaukee, WI, from August 2-5. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:32:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:50:12 EDT Eshriel Orcslayer writes: > if you need... I'm more than willing to help... I have run versions > of the > Master's Invasion many times While I'm not looking for a collaborator for writing the supplements, feel free to post any interesting stories from your campaign. There might be some things I can "borrow" for my timeline... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:48:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "Robert D. Dunlap Jr." Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In past campaigns I decided to link Raise Dead with a High Ceremony/Mass related to the clerics beliefs. Although the cleric with the R.D. spell actually does the casting, the casting is doomed to failure if not performed in the presence of acolytes/lesser priests and congregation. Field raising is impossible... This helps to drive home the impact of a character death as more than a minor inconvenience. Immortals/Gods have a lot on their minds, the High Ceremony is meant to gain the deities attention and show that its followers deem the raising of the recipient worthy. Raise Dead is arguably the most impressive (to those npc's viewing it) spell in the game (next to Wish). Any cleric (good/neutral/evil/lawful/chaotic) would likely realize the usefulness of showing off the powers of his/her belief. Aren't clerics wise, after all? Also, if the Immortal/God granting the spell doesn't have "Neutral" somewhere in its alignment, then it probably requires that the subject of the raise attempt be a follower. If not a follower the recipient's sponsors (in most cases other PC's) might be required to perform some task in the name of the deity, BEFORE the raise attempt is made. Due to the time restrictions on raising, this could be a touchy situation. As DM I never lay the "debt to the deity" on the raise recipient, but on those that wish to see him/her brought back from death. After all the dead guy didn't ask the Immortal/God to bring him back, he's dead. Robert Dunlap From: "Ville V Lahde" > > Antoher system I devised was to restrict the use of Raise Dead in the > future (during the solos the cleric PC gained use of the spell). I tied it > to the skill Ceremony. Each use of the spell will require a ceremonic > consultation from the deity - the result depends on the skill roll, the > way the ceremony is roleplayed, a possible offering (money won't do, > except for Asterius), and especially the circumstances of death. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:10:27 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Too many rules On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:36:54 +0200, Caroletti wrote: >> >> We all know that a thief that fails their find traps roll makes the fighter >> open the chest, and just how did the thief know he failed anyway? >> > >Well, I simply roll for the thief and then I tell him what he found. The thief >then watches his ability score and tries to guess wheter his guess may be >reliable or not, but he will never be sure of it. > Agreed. I do let wizards roll to learn spells and thieves to unlock doors or disarm traps because the player will certainly found out anyway. "You missed the check? Oh, dear... tsk, tsk..." ;) If a thief checks for traps, though, I insist on rolling the dice, since the player can't know whether he failed or succeeded (same goes for identifying magical items, btw), but if there are no traps, I roll the dice and no matter what the result is, I say with firm conviction: "No! There are no traps here. None whatsoever! Absolutely not!" Then I might choose to add an "Honestly!" to the end of that ;) Since I use the PO rules under 2e, we use a trait called Precise Memory. I've had a few players who chose that trait and then argued that since their characters had Precise Memory (which they clearly take to mean photographic memory), they shouldn't have to take notes during the gave because their characters can remember everything and if they need to remember any details I described previously, I should just tell them when they ask for them again. "Fine", I said, "But I'll demand a Intelligence/Knowledge check with penalties, which I roll in secret. If it succeeds, I'll describe the details accurately, but if it fails I'll give you false information, which you won't know because your characters think they remember the information correctly!". I have no trouble with players not taking notes in my game! ;) - The Stalker (currently busy dodging death threats from irate players) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:35:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where can the rest of us find these MBR newsletters? They sound interesting! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Solmyr" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Houses of Darokin: Toney House > Joe Kelly wrote: > > > > hey Aleksei, I am using your MBR newsletters IMC and they are working great, my player's love it! Great Job! > > JK Wolf > > > Excellent, I'm glad they are still useful to people. They are a good way > to create world-shattering chaos in your Mystara campaign :) > > -- > ****************** > Aleksei Andrievski > aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star > solmyr@kolumbus.fi > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:47:17 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Page update Comments: To: Heroes Only List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been small updates at Heroes Only: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll/dnd/index.html And I'm releasing the source code for Ice Queen: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll/programs/index.html Angelo Bertolli www: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: D&D Comic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I finally saw the issues of the D&D Comic from Kenzer & Co. - they're pretty good I thought, despite my initial fears to the contrary. They are sufficiently generic to be good picture fodder for Mystara too! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 01:40:41 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I simply do not understand why the cleric would lose a point of CON for > those spells and for no others. Oh, that's easy. My idea was they were using some of their own life force to revive the dead person. That's where the CON comes in. Kind of like jump-starting a car. I don't know if it makes sense to anyone else, but I feel as though Raise Dead can be some sort of sacrifice on the cleric's part because of it's dire implications. I mean brining someone back to life seems like it should be a bigger deal than it is in my game (Oh, I died? When do I wake up?) But then again, I've always thought of magic as somehow using energy from the person anyway, kind of like mana points. But if there's any other spell which has such powerful consequences like Raise Dead, I say there may be a similar penalty. Of course making a ritual out of the spell is a great idea, and the DM could describe the cleric's reactions and expressions as some of his life force is leaving his body into the corpse. Something like the Quickening comes to mind. I hope I cleared that up. The point of the CON was just the game mechanics, not the other part. When I look at the rulebook (OD&D) I see mostly game mechanics, I always thought it was up to the DM to provide the rest. (But to be honest, I don't think the CON idea is very good, or worth defending anyway.) Angelo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 01:52:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Styles of Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That depends on the mage. Why can't a mage be a weilder of white magic? > After all, white and black are mostly dependent upon the intent of the > magic. Using a fireball to kill the guards to steal a shipment of gold for > personal gain is certainly an evil act; the same situation where the guards > are holding innocent people prisoner against unjust execution is another > situation. It is the same as the difference between a contract killer and a > soldier; one if for personal gain and one is for war. The contract killer is > seen as doing evil to promote evil, the soldier is seen as doing evil for > good. > > Another variant: A healing is performed to prevent a comrade from dying; > this is a good act. To heal a prisoner so that they do not die, so that you > can continue to torture them for fun is evil. I was thinking more in terms in style of magic, not in how it's used. After all, there are good and evil mages, and good and evil clerics. I guess what I mean is, traditionally in fantasy games the class known as "wizard" gets offensive spells, and the "priest" gets defensive spells. A system where that does not hold true I think is more suited to a skill-based system rather than a class-based system. But it begs the question as to why wizards would ONLY do this, and priests would ONLY do that. Maybe it doesn't have to be a restriction in the rules, but wizards who cast healing spells are extremely rare. So rare, players may never have a chance to learn them. Maybe the first magic-users were of the offensive school of thought and somehow did away with the others. Angelo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 02:02:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Indeed, how many religions in Mystara are based upon the Catholic Church. > Indeed, even the Catholic Church had its fighting orders, the Knight's > Templar come immediately to mind.. Also, most mace-heads are metal flanges > that jut out at various angles, there is no way that such a thing would not > shed blood (smashing through bone in the process); and no one would assume > otherwise. This is taking a stated (and hypocritcal) ideal and making it a > rule when it was never the reality. Tell me that the victims of the > inquisition did not have their blood shed (some of their instruments of > torture are truly hair raising to see). In fact the modern Catholic Church > is far closer to the ideal than the medievel version ever was. I don't know how well things were researched for the game before it's beginning editions. I was just saying where the rule came from (and even then I can't claim great authority). I don't think they meant that the game clerics could never shed blood, because obviously anything swung hard enough sheds blood. I think they meant to imitate the rule which was supposedly imposed on the most common clergy of medeival Europe, which is somewhat what the game was modelled after. Do you think the Knight's Templar would be clerics? I certainly think they could be considered so, except in my own game if I rule out clerics using edged weapons.... Angelo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 03:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See below. > > I simply do not understand why the cleric would lose a point of CON for > > those spells and for no others. > > Oh, that's easy. My idea was they were using some of their own life force > to revive the dead person. That's where the CON comes in. Kind of like > jump-starting a car. That's fine if they were mages, but they are clerics. The magic does not come from them, they are chanelling it from their Immortal. They are not jump-starting the car, they are calling the auto-club to jump-start their car. Who says that CON is a measure of life anyway? Why 1 CON? Why not a lose a level? Why does it cost the same for a 0 level NPC as it does for a 36th level fighter? Once we start making it cost the caster it begins to bog down in other considerations. The cleric doesn't have to pay for any other spell they receive (including Wish). Why this one? It sounds like it is only for esthetics. > I don't know if it makes sense to anyone else, but I feel as though Raise > Dead can be some sort of sacrifice on the cleric's part because of it's dire > implications. I mean brining someone back to life seems like it should be a > bigger deal than it is in my game (Oh, I died? When do I wake up?) But > then again, I've always thought of magic as somehow using energy from the > person anyway, kind of like mana points. But if there's any other spell > which has such powerful consequences like Raise Dead, I say there may be a > similar penalty. That's great, but clerics are not mages. The power does not come from them! The power comes from the Immortal. > Of course making a ritual out of the spell is a great idea, and the DM could > describe the cleric's reactions and expressions as some of his life force is > leaving his body into the corpse. Something like the Quickening comes to > mind. In my own game I have removed all clerical "spells" and replaced them with more generic powers. Prayer is the ability to call upon divine intervention. Whether or not the Immortal responds to what the player asks for is dependent upon their level of faith. There are also specifically set clerical Ceremonies (that allow the cleric to have powers temporarily granted to them) and Benedictions (that allow for blessed/holy items to be created). The specifics are dependent upon the Immortals in question. The Immortal will not, of course, grant any intervention not in its best interests. Having a cleric of Asterius ask, "Oh, Asterius, I call upon thee to smite thine enemies," usually results in their foe being rendered penniless, for example (or perhaps to be plagued by thieves, giving the thieves additional modifiers in their favor). > I hope I cleared that up. The point of the CON was just the game mechanics, > not the other part. When I look at the rulebook (OD&D) I see mostly game > mechanics, I always thought it was up to the DM to provide the rest. (But > to be honest, I don't think the CON idea is very good, or worth defending > anyway.) This is fine for a dungeon-crawling/wargame style of play. I have been involved in these sorts of games and they can be fun for a while. In a genuine role-playing environment, such as Mystara, it is my opinion that there should be more substance. Some of the most fun situations I have had in the last 17 years of running Mystara (Oh My God, have I been doing this that long?!) have been when players have their characters explore how magic or religion work in the setting. It forces me to be creative, and it creates lots of ideas for interesting adventures involving other planes, ancient ruins, strange experiments, and the like... George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 03:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Styles of Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, you mean like the clerics Holy Word, or the mages Protection from Normal Missiles... > I was thinking more in terms in style of magic, not in how it's used. After > all, there are good and evil mages, and good and evil clerics. I guess what > I mean is, traditionally in fantasy games the class known as "wizard" gets > offensive spells, and the "priest" gets defensive spells. A system where > that does not hold true I think is more suited to a skill-based system > rather than a class-based system. > > But it begs the question as to why wizards would ONLY do this, and priests > would ONLY do that. Maybe it doesn't have to be a restriction in the rules, > but wizards who cast healing spells are extremely rare. So rare, players > may never have a chance to learn them. Maybe the first magic-users were of > the offensive school of thought and somehow did away with the others. Well, umm, then why do mages have so many of the same powers as clerics (such as Protection from Evil, Protection from Evil 10' Radius, etc.)? Why do they have defensive spells that clerics do not get (Globe of Invulnerability)? Why do clerics get spells that mages do not get, like Flame Strike? All of these things seem arbitrary, rooted only in the mind of the game designer and not in the game world. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 02:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic In-Reply-To: <012401c0ee62$6fbae960$8b39abd0@tds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed George, with all due respect, I don't understand your surprise, confusion, or qualms regarding the idea of using CON penalties for clerics Raising the dead. If someone wants to allow clerics to Raise Dead but wants a big cost to discourage frivolous use it's reasonable to have game mechanics and roleplaying both reinforce that. A game mechanic penalty need not be a substitute for good roleplaying or campaign-building. Otherwise, we might as well ask why there are limits to the number of turn undead attempts or spells clerics can use each day, or or why we bother to have some material components that cost money--why doesn't the DM just have a roleplaying-based limitation? Using mechanics doesn't turn the game into dungeon crawling or a wargame. If so, we'd have to say that a true RPG would use no game mechanics at all. CON is not the obvious source of a penalty, as the poster admitted, but is an entirely reasonable one. Why not a loss for other spells? Perhaps because the DM wants to reinforce that there is something very special, rare, and costly about Raising people from the dead, over and above all the other magical things that clerics can do. It's his campaign, so if Raise Dead is that special in his campaign, it is, for whatever reasons his world and style dictate. It is a good question why Wish wouldn't have a cost, but only because as the rules go you can use Wish to Raise Dead. In this case one could decide that using the Wish to Raise Dead causes the same CON loss, or that a Wish CAN'T be used to Raise Dead, or that that's the benefit of being able to cast Wish (which in OD&D can only be cast by 36th level casters with an 18 in the relevant ability). Since this is all about changes for someone's particular campaign, I don't quite see how one can say that the jump-start analogy for clerical Raising doesn't fit and that the calling an auto club one does. Again, it's his campaign, and if he says so, then the way it works can be that clerics are not supplicants who ask the Immortals to bestow spell effects for them, but rather conduits for the divine power of said Immortals, such that there can be side-effects to particular uses of that divine power. It's a perfect analogy, since just a person can be harmed by completing an electrical circuit, a cleric can be interpreted as channeling energy from the Immortals to the dead body, in a way that can harm him or her in the process. There is no problem with other spells not carrying that danger if the DM decides that there's something in particular about channeling energy to restore life that causes these problems. It's all a matter of the way one runs magic in his/her campaign. Just as you have tailored magic to your tastes and campaign by abandoning clerical spells for generic powers, I see no reason why someone can't reasonably run a campaign in which clerics must pay an awful price for the ability to restore the spark of life to a lump of dead flesh. Philosophical discussion of the flaws/merits of such penalties are good fun, but ultimately it seems to me that virtually ANY choice the DM makes can be a good one, so long as in the context of his campaign and gaming style, it is balanced, internally consistent, and fun. All three of those criteria are contextually-dependent, and can only be judged fairly with intimate knowledge of the DM's vision in mind. At 03:26 AM 6/6/01 -0500, you wrote: >See below. > > > > I simply do not understand why the cleric would lose a point of CON for > > > those spells and for no others. > > > > Oh, that's easy. My idea was they were using some of their own life force > > to revive the dead person. That's where the CON comes in. Kind of like > > jump-starting a car. > >That's fine if they were mages, but they are clerics. The magic does not >come from them, they are chanelling it from their Immortal. They are not >jump-starting the car, they are calling the auto-club to jump-start their >car. Who says that CON is a measure of life anyway? Why 1 CON? Why not a >lose a level? Why does it cost the same for a 0 level NPC as it does for a >36th level fighter? > >Once we start making it cost the caster it begins to bog down in other >considerations. The cleric doesn't have to pay for any other spell they >receive (including Wish). Why this one? It sounds like it is only for >esthetics. > > > I don't know if it makes sense to anyone else, but I feel as though Raise > > Dead can be some sort of sacrifice on the cleric's part because of it's >dire > > implications. I mean brining someone back to life seems like it should be >a > > bigger deal than it is in my game (Oh, I died? When do I wake up?) But > > then again, I've always thought of magic as somehow using energy from the > > person anyway, kind of like mana points. But if there's any other spell > > which has such powerful consequences like Raise Dead, I say there may be a > > similar penalty. > >That's great, but clerics are not mages. The power does not come from them! >The power comes from the Immortal. > > > Of course making a ritual out of the spell is a great idea, and the DM >could > > describe the cleric's reactions and expressions as some of his life force >is > > leaving his body into the corpse. Something like the Quickening comes to > > mind. > >In my own game I have removed all clerical "spells" and replaced them with >more generic powers. Prayer is the ability to call upon divine intervention. >Whether or not the Immortal responds to what the player asks for is >dependent upon their level of faith. There are also specifically set >clerical Ceremonies (that allow the cleric to have powers temporarily >granted to them) and Benedictions (that allow for blessed/holy items to be >created). The specifics are dependent upon the Immortals in question. The >Immortal will not, of course, grant any intervention not in its best >interests. Having a cleric of Asterius ask, "Oh, Asterius, I call upon thee >to smite thine enemies," usually results in their foe being rendered >penniless, for example (or perhaps to be plagued by thieves, giving the >thieves additional modifiers in their favor). > > > I hope I cleared that up. The point of the CON was just the game >mechanics, > > not the other part. When I look at the rulebook (OD&D) I see mostly game > > mechanics, I always thought it was up to the DM to provide the rest. (But > > to be honest, I don't think the CON idea is very good, or worth defending > > anyway.) > >This is fine for a dungeon-crawling/wargame style of play. I have been >involved in these sorts of games and they can be fun for a while. In a >genuine role-playing environment, such as Mystara, it is my opinion that >there should be more substance. Some of the most fun situations I have had >in the last 17 years of running Mystara (Oh My God, have I been doing this >that long?!) have been when players have their characters explore how magic >or religion work in the setting. It forces me to be creative, and it creates >lots of ideas for interesting adventures involving other planes, ancient >ruins, strange experiments, and the like... > > George dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:19:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a slight rules revision to explain the apparent relative ease with which the dead come back to life. At the current tech level of Mystara, what is considered "dead" is what we might consider to be "critically injured, pulse almost too weak to find". Thus resurrective/raise magic is literally putting breath back in not a corpse but a near-death critically injured and comatose creature. Related to this is our use of the "not dead finally until you're on -10 hits" rule. Using this rule at a higher tech level, say closer to our present tech level, a person could be considered revivable down ot -20 or -30 hits whereas in Mystara at its lower tech level people might be unresurrectable if struck dead, ie taken down straight to -10 hits or below in a single attack. This will be more likely at lower level and thus acts as a further weeding out of player characters. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:37:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Ancient One" To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:19 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead and Magic > I have a slight rules revision to explain the apparent relative ease > with which the dead come back to life. > > At the current tech level of Mystara, what is considered "dead" is what > we might consider to be "critically injured, pulse almost too weak to > find". Thus resurrective/raise magic is literally putting breath back in > not a corpse but a near-death critically injured and comatose creature. > Couple of problems with this though, as with a Raise Dead, depending on system and level of caster, we could be talking about a guy who died 4 months ago when he bled out after having his leg severed (OD&D lvl35). With a Raise Dead Fully/Resurrection we're talking years, well after becoming wormfood and rotting down. In AD&D it even specificaly mentions just using the bones. In these cases the corpse most definately IS, or was, a corpse. Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:22:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Indeed, even the Catholic Church had its fighting orders, the Knight's > Templar come immediately to mind.. Also, most mace-heads are metal flanges Templar's were defiantly not Catholic, they were even excommunicated during the period of the inquisition. I believe they were associated to the Cathars. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How could they be excommunicated if they were not Catholic? George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Cherrington" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood > > Indeed, even the Catholic Church had its fighting orders, the Knight's > > Templar come immediately to mind.. Also, most mace-heads are metal flanges > > Templar's were defiantly not Catholic, they were even excommunicated during > the period of the inquisition. I believe they were associated to the > Cathars. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" They were still Christian, and they also had many land titles that would go to the local sovereign ruler; but if you excommunicated them, the titles and properties would go to the church. -----Original Message----- From: George Hrabovsky [mailto:ghrabovsky@TDS.NET] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:36 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood How could they be excommunicated if they were not Catholic? George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Cherrington" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood > > Indeed, even the Catholic Church had its fighting orders, the Knight's > > Templar come immediately to mind.. Also, most mace-heads are metal flanges > > Templar's were defiantly not Catholic, they were even excommunicated during > the period of the inquisition. I believe they were associated to the > Cathars. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Possibly all these solutions could be correct, depending on the pantheon, immortal, or culture. Resurrected characters from the Northern Reaches are looked upon as bad things; possibly in order to resurrect your Northland friend, you would need to go to Valhalla and convince him their is more adventure back in the mortal world, and not hunting with Valkries. In Ylari, dead is dead, their social stigma on magic would not even allow a cleric to raise the dead. In Eusdria you can't raise the dead, their belief would be based on Druidic Reincarnation. In Herath they would have the power to raise dead, but would not use it on any Aranea in a hope that their new life will be back in their home world. Would elves want to be resurrected? Dwarves, Gnomes, & Hin (Hin in particular don't have any real patron) could or would each of these races want to be resurrected? The Traladarans may not trust resurrected friends since they are a superstitious people. Some Immortals would want payment, then others would be more than happy to keep followers of their faith around (they need all the followers they can get). Entropic Immortals most likely would have a boon on the follower, so they would never be resurrected (at least not in any normal form, but certainly in any undead form; except Hel, she would bring you back as some orc crossbred with an antelope or something). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:05:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: The Ancient One [mailto:greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU] >I have a slight rules revision to explain the apparent relative I have used a similar system before, based on your CON. If you go below 0hp's, but not below -10hp's, each cure light wounds spell cast on you would heal 2hp's. If your CON was higher than 10, then you could go below -10hp's by the same difference in CON, but only cure serious wounds would help you by 1hp from each spell. Also this would only work if the 'dead' character rolled under his CON on a d20 each round, -1 to CON for each passing round. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" err... more from me... When groups of immortals form a ring or pantheon of gods to be worshipped, then they all would work together somehow on each others strictures. For example... a pantheon consisting of Hel, Ixion, Valerias, and Ka. Raising dead people would not be a good thing, Hel would want resurrection spells instead. Valerias would possibly need to ceremonied to gain her attention and favor to raise a dead person that was involved in some romantic interest, Ixion would be interested in some exalted fighter of undead. Ka's only interest in the matter would be that the followers of the pantheon never cross each others interests, like making sure most followers are reincarnated by Hel's influence, and those raised by Valerias or Ixion are raised for their sphere of interests and not abused. Another point to make, the reincarnation tables (in all editions) should reflect the sphere of interest of the immortal involved. Hel would not like the 3e table at all, she would put more humanoids and beastmen types on the table (even the dreaded orcalope). Also if their where any mythical creatures in the pantheon, they would possibly be on the table. Ethengarian's reincarnation table would have oxen or yaks, Autrughin's would have a higher percentage on their totem animals. Worshipers of Ixion would have phoenix or lupin. (actually every table would have lupin, rakasta, & tortle, just a higher % the closer you are to SC) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:36:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh, great, my last book's topic!!! Knights Templar (and Hospitalaries, Teutonics, etc etc) were as Catholic as anybody; in fact they took vows of poverty to an extreme... in theory. Fact is, their mission was to protect pilgrims to the Holy Land... in the process of the Crusades, they acquired lots of money, both in loot and in land. This served them to form a rich economy, which let them act as bankers and moneylenders for a number of (more or less broke) monarchies in the West. That's something similar to Cathars: Cathars, or Albigensians, were not catholic, some of their dogma diverges from the Roman Church (they see more of a dualism between body and soul, had a different set of hierarchy, and did not acknowledge the Catholic Sacraments), and they also became moneylenders in the expanding Proven�al urban economy... cuz moneylending was considered a sin by conservative elements of Catholicism, so it could be practised freely only by non-Catholics (in Proven�a Cathars, in other areas, like Iberia or England, Jewish folk). And both Cathars and Templars faced the combined wrath of local rulers and kings and clerical hierarchy: 1st by the great political and economical power they were wielding; 2nd , by challenging church orthodoxy. Number 2 is clear for Cathars: they were technically an heresy, and as such they suffered a Crusade against them beginning in 1209. This big crusade was a nice excuse to have all the Proven�al Midi, partly independent, partly linked to the Crown of Aragon and Catalonia (which supported the Cathars against the Crusade), become under the sphere of influence of the king of France in Paris, whose dinasty had for long centuries coveted those independent counties and baronies. Templars were not prosecuted till the 14th Century: with the loss of Levant holdings, they wielded more power in the West, and they posed a finantial and land challenge to many kings, especially the king of France, as well as to the Vatican. Their excommunication, yes, there was it, and burning at the stake of the main figures, was supported by alleged "confering with the Devil through impious learnings from Heathen Sarrasins", and, although some cultural exchange did happen between Crusaders and the Islam (fortunately, that's the way we got Aristotle in Greek back to Europe), those claims of devil-worship are outrageous and completely church-biased. Nevertheless, they had lotsa power to forge a "templars' legend", the fact that Jacques de Molay, the Principal of the Templar Order, cursed their executors as he was being executed (the King of France and the Pope), and those people died in a surprisingly short notice did not help things get better... Anyway, that's a big rambling, I just hope it was a bit Mystara-inspirational Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:43:58 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Toney House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Eustace wrote: > > Where can the rest of us find these MBR newsletters? They sound > interesting! > http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/2198/MBirthright/mystbr.html is the URL you want. They are newsletters from my old Mystara Birthright PBEM. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Andr=E9s Piquer Otero [mailto:EREWAN@TERRA.ES] >Knights Templar (and Hospitalaries, Teutonics, etc etc) were as = Catholic as >anybody;=20 There is some speculation that they were indeed related to the Cathars = (or at least harbored some to exist after their demise in Province) This = is based on the architecture and placement of Teutonic churches, their = design and mathematics relate somehow to the Cathar's dualism. Also the Hospitalaries were supposed to have been responsible for finding the = Arc of the Covenant, and the Templars for having the Holy Grail (the Holy = Grail in Cathar's belief as being the holy bloodline of Jesus' descendants) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:01:43 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In modern times there are still Hospitalaries, and Templars (AKA Knights of Columbus). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:39:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Shedding Blood In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F72559C497A@JOSHUA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Christopher Cherrington wrote: > In modern times there are still Hospitalaries, and Templars (AKA Knights of > Columbus). Nope. The Knights Templar are actually York Rite Masons, not KoC. The Knights are an organization of the Catholic Church, formed to supplant the Masons among Catholic males, since the Pope himself wrongly accused the Masons as being an evil force. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:58:09 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I knew they were around in some sort of organization, how about the Skull and Crossbones? Could all this be some form of the Illuminati? Brought about the lineage of Jesus' descendants from Cathar to Templar to Masonry to Skull & Crossbones to WTO? (what a coincidence that this mml line is named "Shedding Blood") -----Original Message----- From: SteelAngel [mailto:edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:39 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Christopher Cherrington wrote: > In modern times there are still Hospitalaries, and Templars (AKA Knights of > Columbus). Nope. The Knights Templar are actually York Rite Masons, not KoC. The Knights are an organization of the Catholic Church, formed to supplant the Masons among Catholic males, since the Pope himself wrongly accused the Masons as being an evil force. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:19:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh, yeah, I did not touch any of the modern-era (from the Renaissance onwards) ramifications of the Cathar-Templar-Freemasons-Rosecrucians and so on ad nauseam... it's quite interesting (and very useful for inspiring RPG stuff), but quite a bit out of the historical reach. There's actually a big tradition of the Holy Grail being in a Cathar holding (now that same cup is in Valencia, Spain, you can see it at the cathedral even today; but then there's another Grail in the village of Cebreiro, deep in the mountains of Galicia, connected with St. James pilgrimage route), but the Knights Templar, on the other hand, were not specifically Grail-minded: their mission was to safekeep the Holy Sites in the Levant, and, as the middle ages legend went, the Grail had been taken to Europe by Josef of Arimathea. Templars minded the Holy Sepulcher and, apparently, some remnants of the True Cross. All real connections with RoseCrucians and freemasons (historical, not inspirational) are quite tenuous, as most of them spring from XVIIIth Century Illustration France intellectuals, who called for a new "crusade" against Catholic church and orthodoxy (most of them were christians, but deeply anti-clerical) and they tried to discredit Catholic traditions by making it look as a copy of Oriental and occult traditions (some famous French scholar of the time explained all the Catholic statues at Notre Dame of Paris as copies of Egyptian and Indian temples) and they were themselves quite a bit biased in their anti-clerical zeal. Back to RPG topic, if you have access to Spanish language, you should check Aquelarre, the first Spanish RPG ever. Its topic is XIIth-XVIIth century Spain (mainly) and Europe, and, though having a lot of historical accuracy, focuses on legends, demonology, and secret organizations, such as Cathars, Templars, pre-Illuminati and so on. Now it has seen it's 2nd release, using the D20 system (I think it's the first non-US game to get a D20 license), so adapting any of those elements to a D&D would be easy. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:29:44 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry for all this out of Mystara rambling, but this material could be the base for an Illuminati setting out of Thyatis. Started in the time Thyatis was a kingdom of Alphatia (pre crowning of the first emperor) The knights would actually be the Order of the White Drake, several senators could be the 'antediluvians' or descendants of Alphatian governors. The monetary wealth could be the basis of several ties to the Darokin Merchants Guild (want to trade with Thyatis, go see this senator) Even Ylari could be tied in (trying to supplant the Thyatian influence by secretly supporting the Alphatians until Al'Kalim expelled them, then supporting the Kin Faction) >From ties in Thyatis, the Kerrendians sub clan (Espa) and their expulsion to the Savage Coast to spy on Herath and Hule... I say the Illuminati are originally Alphatian just because they were rulers of Thyatis at one time, and this would allow the sense of Alphatia are still the rulers, except Thincal was to strong to bend to the senators wishes (it happens when you are a secret society, that your very people will foil your plots by zzonga drugging your senators). Great led, bty, Andres; where could I get a copy of Aquelarre? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:43:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Shedding Blood Chris wrote: >I say the Illuminati are originally Alphatian just because they were rulers >of Thyatis at one time, and this would allow the sense of Alphatia are still >the rulers, except Thincal was to strong to bend to the senators wishes (it >happens when you are a secret society, that your very people will foil your >plots by zzonga drugging your senators). Alternatively, you could use the Ordo Magna (created by James Ruhland), a Thyatian secret society with very Illuminati-like aims and tactics. A descrption of it exists on the Vaults, but a more detailled version will appear in the final issue of the Tome of Mystara, as well. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Gander [mailto:au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA] >Alternatively, you could use the Ordo Magna (created by James Ruhlan Good work James! This would be one of the main adversaries of the Illuminati I proposed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:06:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The spell Shapechange says the magic-user can only cast spells as a bipedal humanoid. What does this imply? Angelo Bertolli URL: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:22:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I guess if you shapechange into a centaur, you can't cast spells. ;) But it really is up to the DM's discretion, I never allow the caster to shapechange into something he/she has never seen or studied at least once and spellcasting could only be done if the new shape allowed speech for verbal, opposable thumbs for somatic et et al... -----Original Message----- From: Angelo Bertolli [mailto:abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:07 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Spell-casting The spell Shapechange says the magic-user can only cast spells as a bipedal humanoid. What does this imply? Angelo Bertolli URL: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:04:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you think the Knight's Templar would be clerics? I certainly think they > could be considered so, except in my own game if I rule out clerics using > edged weapons.... > > Angelo > the knights templar, and most of the other knightly orders of the time would be more akin to paladins, and avengers. from the point of view of their role and position, as opposed to any philosophy. Mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If you truly wanted to be a nasty DM and limit spell casting, spells like summon monster or charm monster or shape change, can't be cast as they are, you must study specific animals/monsters in order to learn the spell. For example if the mage wanted to shape change into an orc, he would have to have studied an orc and learn the spell 'shape change into orc', or learn the spell 'charm orc'. But doing it this way would make the spell more specialized and you could give negatives to the victim's saves or allow the mage to have the strength of the orc et... Another alternative related to your last question would be not only would you have to studied the humanoid to shape change into, but must have a component made from the humanoid also, this would allow spell-casting as that shape. But woe to the mage that shape changes into an elf with a piece of an elf he had to catch, then gets caught by true sight! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:51:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Of Spells and Learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Gazetteer of Glantri brought up some neat stuff about learning spells, old ones and new ones. Has anyone come up with a detailed list of spells for their campaign that would allow a skill check to see that when casting a spell any viewer (of magical learning) might recognize not only the spell, but from what school (like Glantri or Karameikos or Alphatia, or even from a famous mage) that the spell may have been learned from? This would make characters want to learn the same spell multiple times, to stay incognito, or to be known for their adept or flashy casting or even whom they were once a pupil of. Spells learned this way could be traced back to the original teacher (it may even be copyrighted somehow) or changed to simulate another persona. I once had a character in Glantri that made a fourth level detect invisible spell, it formed little green eyeballs that would hit invisible objects, like a magic missile w/out the dmg, and produce faerie fire on the invisible object. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:11:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Valley of Khyr? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I used so much time: Valley of Khyr is located in the Broken Lands (Orkburg). I could send infos if you don't have the Gazetteer. Mind you, however, that I have the Italian translation, so names could be different (I have translated the Italian Orchiburgo in Orkburg. Anyway, it's the domain of Alebane). Giulio aka Iulius Scaevola ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:14:11 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Shedding Blood In-Reply-To: <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F72559C49A1@JOSHUA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII yOn Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Christopher Cherrington wrote: > I knew they were around in some sort of organization, how about the Skull > and Crossbones? Could all this be some form of the Illuminati? Brought > about the lineage of Jesus' descendants from Cathar to Templar to Masonry to > Skull & Crossbones to WTO? (what a coincidence that this mml line is named > "Shedding Blood") Well, not really.. Yale's skull and bones fraternity is an old boys club for rich white kids. It doesn't take grades to be a member, only influential parents - our illustrious, yet academically vapid president was a member. Masons take a lot of heritage from Jacques DeMolay, the leader of the Knights Templar during the crusades, who was betrayed by the king of france and burned as a heretic because his Hospitaliers had too much money. But the only masonic connection to the 'Illuminati' is the fact that the RW Illuminati were masonic lodges in france around the late 1800's that decided to allow atheists as members, and were disavowed my the world masonic authority. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:00:02 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Looking for News Letters for you campaign? Comments: To: MYSTARA-L@.WIZARDS.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found a site that has more newsletters for Mystara, It is called FNN = hope you all like it! Here is the addy http://employees.3gi.com/~phillips/fnn/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:22:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Vincent Vogt Subject: For sale on e-bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have posted some items on e-bay for auction here they are: (more to com= e later) -Champions of Mystata Box Set at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll= ?ViewItem&item=3D1604618974 item #1604618974 -Dawn of the emperors at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte= m&item=3D1604623581 item #1604623581 -Wrath of the Immortals at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI= tem&item=3D1604635357 item #1604635357 -Hollow World Campaign Set at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi= ewItem&item=3D1604639372 item #1604639372 -Basic Set (Red Box) at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem= &item=3D1604644210 item #1604644210 -Expert Set (Blue Box) at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt= em&item=3D1604651225 item #1604651225 -Red Steel Box Set at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&i= tem=3D1604658433 item #1604658433 -Savage Barronies Box Set at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie= wItem&item=3D1604663257 item #1604663257 Thats all for now but as I said more to come including all the gazetteers= (except the dwafs) and many OD&D modules and AD&D items for mystara. Vince ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:39:06 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not a great idea to be discussing this stuff...but a few corrections/illuminations... > yOn Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Christopher Cherrington wrote: > > > I knew they were around in some sort of organization, how about the Skull > > and Crossbones? Could all this be some form of the Illuminati? Brought > > about the lineage of Jesus' descendants from Cathar to Templar to Masonry to > > Skull & Crossbones to WTO? (what a coincidence that this mml line is named > > "Shedding Blood") > > Well, not really.. > > Yale's skull and bones fraternity is an old boys club for rich white kids. > It doesn't take grades to be a member, only influential parents - our > illustrious, yet academically vapid president was a member. This is an example of yet another misrepresentation from the far Left. Our "academically vapid" President kicked the crap out of Gore in all three debates. Seeing how he has been able to get his agenda through despite the heel-digging of the Democrats in the House and Senate makes it difficult for any nearly neutral observer to make the case for his dimwittedness. > > Masons take a lot of heritage from Jacques DeMolay, the leader of the > Knights Templar during the crusades, who was betrayed by the king of > france and burned as a heretic because his Hospitaliers had too much > money. The Freemason cult is a Protestant group that Catholics are forbidden to join. This is due to the history of anti-Catholic activities of that group. The templaric order got involved in heresy and were required to renounce the knighthood or become heretics. And I think it was the Hospitaliers who got corrupted by money, becoming more of a banking organization and bilking good people, and so were also required to renounce the organization. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:29:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelo Bertolli wrote: > > The spell Shapechange says the magic-user can only cast spells as a bipedal > humanoid. What does this imply? IMO, spellcasting as a bipedal humanoid for OD&D means only the spell access described in the monster section of the Companion (? think its Companion) DM book. IMO, spellcasting as a bipedal humanoid for 2e D&D means only the spell access described in the MM entries OR / AND the spell access described in S&P:Spells and Magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:32:25 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Of Spells and Learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher Cherrington wrote: > > The Gazetteer of Glantri brought up some neat stuff about learning spells, > old ones and new ones. Has anyone come up with a detailed list of spells > for their campaign that would allow a skill check to see that when casting a > spell any viewer (of magical learning) might recognize not only the spell, > but from what school (like Glantri or Karameikos or Alphatia, or even from a > famous mage) that the spell may have been learned from? Hi, yeah there are "signature spells" are listed as part of my spellbook online at www.geocities.com/overmind_2099/gamefiles.html then click on the spellbook entry use bakc button to exit. These are the spells like "X's signature spell" or "Asmodeus' favourite spell" in the description. Or of course all of the ones that are in the format X's Y of Z. -J ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:37:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: For sale on e-bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we can mention stuff for sale, I am selling pretty much all the stuff I have. I can deliver it myself and I run a business so I don't use e-bay, but mail me your wish lists and I will reply to see if I have it. There is a list of some on my website welcome.to/nolanbooks but I have a lot of D&D/AD&D stuff which I am getting rid of. BTW, there is STILL a huge dump of this stuff in my hometown of Canberra. I will happily go on a shopping spree for people if you tell me what you want I will go and buy it for you (with your money - I ain't father xmas). The shop has LOTS of D&D stuff - gazetteers, adventures, books, all sorts. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:33:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is my interpretation of the Shapechange spell, which as a 9th level spell, should be, and is, quite powerful: The MU can only cast his own memorized spells, whatever they may be, when he is in the shape of a bipedal humanoid. So if he is taking the shape of an orc, goblin, troll, giant, elf, dwarvf, pixie, kobold, etc. he can continue to cast spells while gaining any additional abilites that those shapes might confer. I would also think he could cast if in the form of a vampire, lich, or other bipedal undead form that is capable of speech. Note that the spell does not state that "the MU can change into a bipedal humanoid and cast spells as if he were a humanoid spell-caster". ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Ancient One" To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Spell-casting > Angelo Bertolli wrote: > > > > The spell Shapechange says the magic-user can only cast spells as a bipedal > > humanoid. What does this imply? > > IMO, spellcasting as a bipedal humanoid for OD&D means only the spell > access described in the monster section of the Companion (? think its > Companion) DM book. > > IMO, spellcasting as a bipedal humanoid for 2e D&D means only the spell > access described in the MM entries OR / AND the spell access described > in S&P:Spells and Magic. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 01:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Shedding Blood In-Reply-To: <002a01c0eef2$a55855e0$6232140a@jdaly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote: > heel-digging of the Democrats in the House and Senate makes it difficult for > any nearly neutral observer to make the case for his dimwittedness. Ahem. There was a reason that Bush surrounded himself with a group of highly competant advisors. And no, it wasn't because daddy told him to. Bush is the Grant of our era. Blissfully unaware, and lets his advisors do all the work. > The Freemason cult is a Protestant group that Catholics are forbidden to > join. This is due to the history of anti-Catholic activities of that group. And this is a common misconception from a non-Mason. Masons have nothing against Catholics. Masons support freedom of religion. It is the Catholics, and related parties (i.e. the anti-mason party of the late 1800's) that began the fight against the Masons. Need I remind anyone that all of the founding fathers of the US were masons? > The templaric order got involved in heresy and were required to renounce the > knighthood or become heretics. Untrue. The Templars got exceptionally wealthy from pilgrims. The French Govt wanted to plunder their mony to help the war effort. Thus they trumped up heretical charges. No different than the salem witch trials. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 07:29:48 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: For sale on e-bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i am interested in having the list of gazeteers please (and the prizes) Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr or at clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: The Ancient One To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] For sale on e-bay > If we can mention stuff for sale, I am selling pretty much all the stuff > I have. I can deliver it myself and I run a business so I don't use > e-bay, but mail me your wish lists and I will reply to see if I have it. > There is a list of some on my website > > welcome.to/nolanbooks > > but I have a lot of D&D/AD&D stuff which I am getting rid of. > BTW, there is STILL a huge dump of this stuff in my hometown of > Canberra. I will happily go on a shopping spree for people if you tell > me what you want I will go and buy it for you (with your money - I ain't > father xmas). > The shop has LOTS of D&D stuff - gazetteers, adventures, books, all > sorts. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:47:01 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Shedding Politics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:18 AM 6/7/01 -0400, Ethan wrote: >On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote: > > > heel-digging of the Democrats in the House and Senate makes it > difficult for > > any nearly neutral observer to make the case for his dimwittedness. > >Ahem. >There was a reason that Bush surrounded himself with a group of highly >competant advisors. And no, it wasn't because daddy told him to. > >Bush is the Grant of our era. Blissfully unaware, and lets his advisors do >all the work. Can we cast Finger of Death on the political discussion? Otherwise, I'll be tempted to rant on the duopolistic evils of our blissfully bipartisan corporate American government and its steward-whores in the DemRep party. Ah, for just one Gelatinous Cube to cleanse the halls of injustice...no make that three: one for each branch... Ok, ok, see what you made me do? Magus Coeruleus dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:35:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: WEBSITE: Threshold: animals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I need some cool/cute animal encounters for Threshold, ie alley cats, loveable dogs that grow up to be Hounds of St. Cuthbert etc. Anyone with any good ideas, pls mail them in. Also I haven't had any response for the characters request - pls send some in - the posted material will be whacked on the site as soon as its been reformatted. I am putting a lot of stuff on this weekend - work has intruded plus I am running a PBeM (Mystara based if anyone is interested) again so that is chewing through my non-work time... I also found out that there is a fanfiction site for the Savage Coast - I am getting the new link for it hopefully tomorrow, as soon as I do I will put it on my site BUT I will also send it to the list as a matter of course. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: "David S. Leland" Subject: Re: WEBSITE: Threshold: animals In-Reply-To: <3B200FC6.2379@hotkey.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hounds of St. Cuthbert in Threshold? Is this Mystara's Threshold or a Greyhawk town of the same name? At 04:35 PM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I need some cool/cute animal encounters for Threshold, ie alley cats, >loveable dogs that grow up to be Hounds of St. Cuthbert etc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:25:23 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: WEBSITE: Threshold: animals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David S. Leland wrote: > > Hounds of St. Cuthbert in Threshold? Is this Mystara's Threshold or a > Greyhawk town of the same name? > I just meant that as an illustration, not as an actual encounter. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:11:21 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Once we start making it cost the caster it begins to bog down in other > considerations. The cleric doesn't have to pay for any other spell they > receive (including Wish). Why this one? It sounds like it is only for > esthetics. I think I do see your point about trying to force characters to role-play, or to to set up some game statistic simply and only because it makes it advantageous to the character. I agree with you. Things shouldn't be done for that reason. In fact, I don't think I'll be using the CON adjustment after all. I've disliked this type of thing in other games too, I just didn't realize that this was the same thing. The clerics should have a role-playing reason why they are averse or unable to perform the service just willy-nilly. > In my own game I have removed all clerical "spells" and replaced them with > more generic powers. Prayer is the ability to call upon divine intervention. > Whether or not the Immortal responds to what the player asks for is > dependent upon their level of faith. There are also specifically set > clerical Ceremonies (that allow the cleric to have powers temporarily > granted to them) and Benedictions (that allow for blessed/holy items to be > created). The specifics are dependent upon the Immortals in question. The > Immortal will not, of course, grant any intervention not in its best > interests. Having a cleric of Asterius ask, "Oh, Asterius, I call upon thee > to smite thine enemies," usually results in their foe being rendered > penniless, for example (or perhaps to be plagued by thieves, giving the > thieves additional modifiers in their favor). Are clerics limited to a certain number of successful prayers per day? You know, when I read a book like the Hobbit before I started gaming at all, I was always under the impression that wizard magic was somewhat ambiguous. I mean, I didn't think that there was a limit like a certain number of memorizable spells, I didn't even think spells were specific. I thought it was all a matter of some kind of incantations which generated the magic somehow. So wizards could put together a set of incantations on the spot and have a completely unique effect than before. I had some idea that the power was limited, that they couldn't just "do anything." I didn't think the burning pinecone that Gandalf threw was a specific spell, I thought it was something he had thought up at that moment. > This is fine for a dungeon-crawling/wargame style of play. I have been > involved in these sorts of games and they can be fun for a while. In a > genuine role-playing environment, such as Mystara, it is my opinion that > there should be more substance. Some of the most fun situations I have had > in the last 17 years of running Mystara (Oh My God, have I been doing this > that long?!) have been when players have their characters explore how magic > or religion work in the setting. It forces me to be creative, and it creates > lots of ideas for interesting adventures involving other planes, ancient > ruins, strange experiments, and the like... You're right. But I'd also like to dispel any illusion that my game is anywhere near a model role-playing game. We like to play the half wargame/half dungeon-crawl/half soap-opera/half role-play game anyway. (Wait, that's too many halves?) Angelo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really like this idea, in particular the negative hitpoints. It reminds me of the Princess Bride. "He's only MOSTLY dead." Angelo Bertolli URL: http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll > Related to this is our use of the "not dead finally until you're on -10 > hits" rule. Using this rule at a higher tech level, say closer to our > present tech level, a person could be considered revivable down ot -20 > or -30 hits whereas in Mystara at its lower tech level people might be > unresurrectable if struck dead, ie taken down straight to -10 hits or > below in a single attack. This will be more likely at lower level and > thus acts as a further weeding out of player characters. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:05:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelo Bertolli wrote: > > I really like this idea, in particular the negative hitpoints. > It reminds me of the Princess Bride. > "He's only MOSTLY dead." Exactly. I take the point that the spells can restore even soup bones back to life but in practice I haven't often found this to happen as I add in a lot of realistic nasties like scavengers following those who carry fresh meat or bones around, etc.etc. - it just hasn't arisen very much. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:09:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: CESTUS: SEA DRAGONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, does anyone have any new information on Cestus, Sea Dragons, expansions on information on that region, etc.? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Raise Dead and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IN my own game, which is in the Borigon system and not D&D, whenever someone uses a power they acquire a power detriment. These detriments are cumulative and directly effect skill rolls. Here are the broadly defined definitions of the types of powers: Psychic: These powers originate from the character. Psychic power detriments recover at a rate of one per hour. Low Magic: This is practical magic, influencing the material world (low world). The power originates outside of the magician, they are using the magical substance of the "magical realm" (a place to hidden to all but those who can use magic). Magical power detriments are recovered at a rate of one per day, though there are powers and devices that can increase this rate. Spirit Magic: This is the magic of spirit pacts. The mage sacrificies skill levels or attributes in order to gain immensely powerful abilities. This is extremely dangerous, since a spirit can easily destroy any mortal (think of a highly powerful exalted being). Once the duration of the pact has run its course the skill goes away. High Magic: This is the magic where the character is "awakening" that part of themselves that is divine. These are very hard to use skills. Thier results have a tendency to be permanent in that they "rewrite" the character (in fact, one character has developed a multiple personality disorder as a result of such a magical accident). These power detriments also fade at a rate of one point per day. Religious Magic: This is the most powerful of all magics, and the most limited. If the divine patron does not approve of the use of power, the best thing that can happen is nothing. If the god/immortal is offended, look out (turning someone into a pillar of stone is not out of the question)! All such powers come form the Divine patron. The detriment comes from the cleric using their own power to channel the greater power. This power detriment comes back at a rate of one per day, or through a Prayer of Strength, or in a daily worship session. And these are the broadly defined types of powers in my game. > Are clerics limited to a certain number of successful prayers per day? You > know, when I read a book like the Hobbit before I started gaming at all, I > was always under the impression that wizard magic was somewhat ambiguous. I > mean, I didn't think that there was a limit like a certain number of > memorizable spells, I didn't even think spells were specific. I thought it > was all a matter of some kind of incantations which generated the magic > somehow. So wizards could put together a set of incantations on the spot > and have a completely unique effect than before. I had some idea that the > power was limited, that they couldn't just "do anything." I didn't think > the burning pinecone that Gandalf threw was a specific spell, I thought it > was something he had thought up at that moment. Recall that Gandalf was, for all practical purposes, a semi-divine being. He was a Valar (a lesser Immortal), as were all of the Wizards. George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: MYSTARA: D&D movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everybody! Possibly this was discussed ad nauseam on the list but the D&D movie stuff by Arneson re: Sumdall and Izmer is a bit Glantri-ish, what with it being a magocracy etc. ... perhaps some of this stuff could be used for Mystara... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:24:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: MYSTARA: D&D movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like what? The bad acting or not enough spells being cast by the wizard? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie for what it was but it needed a lot more to be called Dungeons and Dragons IMO. My son enjoys the movie and I bought it for him on DVD. He is 8 and will soon join the ranks of players of Mystara, but even he asked "Where are the blue dragons, and how come the dragons did not talk?" From the mouths of babes... :-) Multizar the Mage Proud Father ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:56:23 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: MYSTARA: D&D movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CAUTION: small flames present The beauty of posts is that they can be read... CAUTION: small flames present END small flames I referred to the Dave Arneson ARTICLE on the TSR site not the execrable film itself. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: MYSTARA: CESTUS: SEA DRAGONS Green Lantern wrote: > >Hi all, >does anyone have any new information on Cestus, Sea Dragons, expansions >on information on that region, etc.? There is information about Cestia in the first volume of the DM's Guide to Davania, which should be somewhere on Shawn's site. AFAIK the Cestia information (by me) is among the only information out there - and that was based in part on Bruce Heard's VotPA article on the place. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 07:07:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Ricardo Matheus Subject: Re: For sale on e-bay Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

>If we can mention stuff for sale, I am selling pretty much all the stuff
>I have. I can deliver it myself and I run a business so I don't use
>e-bay, but mail me your wish lists and I will reply to see if I have it.
>There is a list of some on my website
>
>welcome.to/nolanbooks
>
>but I have a lot of D&D/AD&D stuff which I am getting rid of.
>BTW, there is STILL a huge dump of this stuff in my hometown of
>Canberra. I will happily go on a shopping spree for people if you tell
>me what you want I will go and buy it for you (with your money - I ain't
>father xmas).
>The shop has LOTS of D&D stuff - gazetteers, adventures, books, all
>sorts.
 
 
Well, well. I DO want most of the gazetteers (in fact all except Dwarves of Rockhome, Ethengar and Atraughin) and I do want the Eastern Trail Map.
The problem is that I live in Brazil. But if you are willing to help me I would be very gratefull.
 
See you
Darkblood

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:14:14 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Rodrigo Subject: Re: For sale on e-bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, the same trouble as mine. Ricardo Matheus wrote: > >If we can mention stuff for sale, I am selling pretty much all the > stuff > >I have. I can deliver it myself and I run a business so I don't use > >e-bay, but mail me your wish lists and I will reply to see if I have > it. > >There is a list of some on my website > > > >welcome.to/nolanbooks > > > >but I have a lot of D&D/AD&D stuff which I am getting rid of. > >BTW, there is STILL a huge dump of this stuff in my hometown of > >Canberra. I will happily go on a shopping spree for people if you > tell > >me what you want I will go and buy it for you (with your money - I > ain't > >father xmas). > >The shop has LOTS of D&D stuff - gazetteers, adventures, books, all > >sorts. Well, well. I DO want most of the gazetteers (in fact all > except Dwarves of Rockhome, Ethengar and Atraughin) and I do want the > Eastern Trail Map.The problem is that I live in Brazil. But if you are > willing to help me I would be very gratefull. See youDarkblood > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, > send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the > body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:16:47 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: For sale on e-bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ricardo Matheus wrote: > > >If we can mention stuff for sale, I am selling pretty much all the > stuff > >I have. I can deliver it myself and I run a business so I don't use > >e-bay, but mail me your wish lists and I will reply to see if I have > it. > >There is a list of some on my website > > > >welcome.to/nolanbooks > > > >but I have a lot of D&D/AD&D stuff which I am getting rid of. > >BTW, there is STILL a huge dump of this stuff in my hometown of > >Canberra. I will happily go on a shopping spree for people if you > tell > >me what you want I will go and buy it for you (with your money - I > ain't > >father xmas). > >The shop has LOTS of D&D stuff - gazetteers, adventures, books, all > >sorts. > > > Well, well. I DO want most of the gazetteers (in fact all except > Dwarves of Rockhome, Ethengar and Atraughin) and I do want the Eastern > Trail Map. > The problem is that I live in Brazil. But if you are willing to help > me I would be very gratefull. > > See you > Darkblood ola! (or whatever, my Portuguese is minimal) Sending to Brazil is not a problem... perhaps you could give me a specific list? BTW all the books are the English language versions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:27:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Wizards Shopper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable as for me i can pay you trough paypal if you want... thibault sarlat Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177 homepage www.mystara.fr.st join me at thibsylv=40club-internet.fr or at clenarius=40hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:08:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Bush is the Grant of our era. Blissfully unaware, and lets his advisors do all the work. << Ahem... I probably shouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole but oh well. Since this is the MML I'm sure you meant to say "Bush is the RW equivalent of our Stephan Karameikos." John ===== Rule #53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:45:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: John Calvin [mailto:chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM] >> Bush is the Grant of our era. Blissfully unaware, and lets his advisors do all the work. << >> Ahem... I probably shouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole but oh well. Since this is the MML I'm sure you meant to say "Bush is the RW equivalent of our Stephan Karameikos." John << Now you're starting fires, Stephan is a great leader, he has many a great man to help him, but he is a great leader just by himself! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:51:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ohhh, poor Stefan! I don't get thrilled about the Karameikan ruler, but that was a bit too much... How many people get executed yearly in Karameikos? And how many international WDL treaties did Stefan spoil in the last few months? How many mining operations did he open in the Hutaakan valley? How many appalling speeches in Traladaran did he make? Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:59:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Andr=E9s Piquer Otero [mailto:EREWAN@TERRA.ES] >> Ohhh, poor Stefan! I don't get thrilled about the Karameikan ruler, but = that was a bit too much... How many people get executed yearly in Karameikos? And how many international WDL treaties did Stefan spoil in the last = few months? How many mining operations did he open in the Hutaakan valley? How many appalling speeches in Traladaran did he make? << And don't forget that incident with the Ochalean Navy, when they lost = that poor pilot that steered his ship to close to that Karameikan Merchant = Marine vessel that ran aground. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you guys want to rant about RW politics, take it somewhere else. Stop wasting my bandwidth. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andr�s Piquer Otero" To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood > Ohhh, poor Stefan! I don't get thrilled about the Karameikan ruler, but that > was a bit too much... > How many people get executed yearly in Karameikos? > And how many international WDL treaties did Stefan spoil in the last few > months? > How many mining operations did he open in the Hutaakan valley? > How many appalling speeches in Traladaran did he make? > > > Andr�s > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:37:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Grand Opening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eyal Fleminger wrote: > I have set up a web page at containing a variety of resources for OD&D and > Mystara. At the moment, most of the material is AD&D conversions and > compilations from various sources, but I'll add to it with time. I'll also > be adding some other files, in particular a conversion of various AD&D > monsters and magic items, though it will take some time to set up. There is really some interesting stuff there. I checked only the new spells section, but there are really nice things...but there are too many for me to check out. By the way, I think that we should work for a place where we could put just printable versions of all our home pages out there in the web. A mirror site for Starflung (all made of the same stuff but in printable format) would be great. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:58:55 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Grand Opening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the addy for this site? JK wolf >>> scarole@TIN.IT 06/07/01 09:37AM >>> Eyal Fleminger wrote: > I have set up a web page at containing a variety of resources for OD&D = and > Mystara. At the moment, most of the material is AD&D conversions and > compilations from various sources, but I'll add to it with time. I'll = also > be adding some other files, in particular a conversion of various AD&D > monsters and magic items, though it will take some time to set up. There is really some interesting stuff there. I checked only the new = spells section, but there are really nice things...but there are too many for me to check out. By the way, I think that we should work for a place where we could put just printable versions of all our home pages out there in the web. A mirror site for Starflung (all made of the same stuff but in printable format) would be great. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:06:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Dave Keyser Organization: Palmchip Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero wrote: > Ohhh, poor Stefan! I don't get thrilled about the Karameikan ruler, but that > was a bit too much... Actually, I thought it would be interesting to make a comparison, so I thought I would give it a try > > How many people get executed yearly in Karameikos? According to GAZ1, Class 7 crimes are automatically punishable by death. Class 6 crimes can be punishable by death. Class 7 crimes are Murder-Deliberate(the equivalent of 1st degree murder in the US), and most cases of treason. Class 6 crimes are Attempted Murder-Deliberate, Murder-Spontaneous, Mutiny, and Disobeying a direct order in peacetime. Since 1st degree murder automatically carries a death sentence, Karameikos will execute more people per population unit per year than the US, assuming conviction rates for comparable crimes are even vaguely close.(Remember, someone just has to be executed for the crime, they don't have to be guilty). Of course, neither Bush nor Stephan play a direct role in executions. In each case, a court makes the conviction and sentence, the executive branch simply carries it out. Stephan could hold a trial for a treason case(say one of his advisors) and sentence someone to death, while Bush never could. But Stephan probably hasn't done that, something like that would show up in the almanacs. Both Stephan and Bush could grant clemency or commute a death penalty case, but since this is only supposed to be done under the most unusual circumstances, it would be done only rarely. In this category, Bush and Stephan are comparable, since Stephan isn't sending all these people to death himself, neither is Bush. Both are merely stewards of laws that precede them. > > And how many international WDL treaties did Stefan spoil in the last few > months? Hmm... interesting wording, spoil doesn't necessarily mean broken, and WDL conveniently excludes that mutual defense treaty Stefan signed with Thyatis. The last few months depends on when your campaign was sent. Too make a more honest comparison, let's see how many treaties were broken by Bush and Stefan? For Bush, the ABM treaty was signed with the Soviet Union, which no longer exists. It was never renewed with the new nations which the Soviet Union used to contain, including Russia. Hence the ABM treaty is no longer binding, so Bush can't break that treaty, it no longer exists either. As for the Kyoto agreement, the US requires that the Senate ratify the treaty (something that many people outside America don't realize). The treaty is not binding on the US until the treaty is ratified, NOT when the President signs it. Even though Clinton signed it, it was not binding, so again, Bush did not break the treaty. For Stefan, he clearly did break the mutual defense treaty with Thyatis. As for the WDL, the only dispute I was aware of was when the dwarves demanded troops be sent below ground to aid them in the fight against the shadowelves. This went beyond the WDL treaty, so Stephan did not break it. So Bush is up one on Stefan there. > > How many mining operations did he open in the Hutaakan valley? Is mining a good thing or a bad thing? Obviously, Bush has more ability to develop(or exploit, your choice) the resources of the US, but both leaders seek to do that. In what they desire to do, Bush and Stefan are comparable. As far as development/ exploitation goes, Bush will have the opportunity to start more projects than Stefan will. > > How many appalling speeches in Traladaran did he make? I don't know of any speeches directly quoted by Stefan in the Karameikos materials, but his intelligence number makes me doubt he ever said anything like, "I know how hard it is to put food on your family." Regardless of which language is spoken, I can confidently put Stefan as the better speaker over Bush. >And don't forget that incident with the Ochalean Navy, when they lost that >poor pilot that steered his ship to close to that Karameikan Merchant Marine >vessel that ran aground. It would have to be a Karameikan military ship to be equivalent. Actually, before airplanes, much spying was done by a country's navy. In the D&D world, however, I suspect that spying would rely much more on magic and thieves than navies. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:18:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Re: Shedding Blood In-Reply-To: <3B1FD09C.2F407534@palmchip.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 6/7/01 2:06 PM, dave@PALMCHIP.COM wrote: > but his intelligence number makes me doubt he ever said anything like, "I know > how > hard it is to put food on your family." If only they would hold still long enough... 8-) Jenn -- There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum. - Arthur C. Clarke ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Christopher Cherrington Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Dave Keyser [mailto:dave@PALMCHIP.COM] >And don't forget that incident with the Ochalean Navy, when they lost that >poor pilot that steered his ship to close to that Karameikan Merchant Marine >vessel that ran aground. >> It would have to be a Karameikan military ship to be equivalent. Actually, before airplanes, much spying was done by a country's navy. In the D&D world, however, I suspect that spying would rely much more on magic and thieves than navies. << I was thinking more on the lines more of a merchant ship being a better spy plane than an actual military vessel. Face it, in the Mystaran campaign, if it was a military vessel it would have been grounds for war. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:00:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George wrote: >If you guys want to rant about RW politics, take it somewhere else. Stop >wasting my bandwidth. ??? after reading the posts you have wrote over the last 2 weeks you write this??? Get a sense of humor! This has been the funniest thread I have read yet. Comparing RW politics with Mystara politics is damn funny! Most of your posts are criticisms and put downs. The biggest waste of bandwith is listening to you rant about your viewpoints. Sheesh, get a life man! Multizar the Amused Mage P.S. To make this about Mystara, did anyone know Olivia Karamikos ran her chariot over a young Traladaran in her youth? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:07:40 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did anyone know Olivia Karamikos ran her chariot over a young Traladaran in her youth? And Stefan's degree from Thyatis Univesity - you know he only got that through his family connections... "what is our children learning" indeed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Stalker Subject: Re: MYSTARA: D&D movie On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:22:33 -0700, The Ancient One wrote: >Hey everybody! > >Possibly this was discussed ad nauseam on the list but the D&D movie >stuff by Arneson re: Sumdall and Izmer is a bit Glantri-ish, what with >it being a magocracy etc. ... perhaps some of this stuff could be used >for Mystara... > Actually, Izmer and Sumdall are rather more Alphatian. I think there was even an article someone referred to where the director admitted that this was indeed where that inspirtion was drawn from (it that still on the net? Does anyone remember the link?) Don't know where they got the name 'Izmer' from, but the capital of the Alphatian empire is called Sundsvall. Sound familiar? :) As for the plot being used for Mystara, well yes and no. I've been considering it a little myself after I saw the film. With the constant references to Aristocrats and Commoners, there is definite Alphatian feeling here - those are the exact words used for spellcasters and non- spellcasters respectively in DOTE! I don't find the plot very 'Mystaran', though, as it's far too black and white. And though I didn't think it would be possible, Snails actually annoys me even more than Jar Jar Binks ever did [though he does get the fate we all secretly hoped would befall Jar Jar, doesn't he? ;) ]! If we did put this in Mystara (and Alphatia, I assume), it would be sometime in the long forgotten past, and Empress Savina's benevolent ideals of equality between those with magic and those without would have to have been done away with after a very short time ["as they should be! Commoners and Aristocrats being equal... Hrmph! What nonsense!" ;) ] - The Stalker, Alphatian Aristocrat ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: FW: [MYSTARA] Raise Dead Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "hafnir" > > Then again, "Raise Dead" is > actually "simpler" than "Cureall", since it's 5th level, so that > kinda blows that theory a little. Actually, I've always been irked > by how they go to all the trouble to make mage's so different from > clerics, then at the last minute (9th spell level) they give mages > the option to cast "Heal", which is more than equivalent to all > the cleric's cure spells, minus a few specialty spells like > "Restore" and "Raise Dead" or "Raise Dead Fully". So this largely > supports your theory that mages _can_ cast cleric spells (and > incidentally, the Wizardry spell gives clerics a limited stab at > mage craft)! But it doesn't explain the glaring hole that "Raise > Dead" is not listed as available to mages. Read on. On the other hand, "Reincarnate" could be considered the M-U equivalent of Raise Dead, with the obvious problem that it brings the dead person back in a new body, which is usually humanoid but often not even of the original race/species. And we also have the examples of Elves in Gaz 5 getting access to Cure Light Wounds (as a 3d level spell) as well as similar spells accessible to Bards and Witches in 3E. So the conclusion I would draw from such references is that it is indeed possible for wizards to cast healing magic, but they are not as good at it as clerics or even more specialized wielders of arcane magic. My guess is that Glantrians would have Witches do most of the healing of adventurers while other nations would depend primarily on Clerics. The reverse case would involve spells that inflict damage -- generally wizards have the advantage here. I would suppose that any theory about why one class is better than the other at certain types of spells would have to involve something about the nature of the power that each wields, with the cleric channeling power from a patron Immortal and a wizard wielding power on a far less personal basis. Maybe there is something about that fact that an Immortal grants power to a cleric for the specific purpose of enhancing his own reputation and power that causes clerics to be better at healing and protection spells and worse at destructive spells. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Raise Dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Robert D. Dunlap Jr." > > As DM I never > lay the "debt to the deity" on the raise recipient, but on those that wish > to see him/her brought back from death. After all the dead guy didn't ask > the Immortal/God to bring him back, he's dead. Of course, you could still assess such penalties on the basis that even divine power is not enough to bring a character completely back -- if a dead person can only be 90-95% restored, that would be more than enough justification for docking him a point of constitution or an experience level. Any penalties or costs not related to loss of life force would of course have to be paid by others, maybe but not certainly in the hope that the raised person will feel obligated to make good all or part of that loss. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: David Knott Subject: Re: Spell-casting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Christopher Cherrington" > > I guess if you shapechange into a centaur, you can't cast spells. ;) > But it really is up to the DM's discretion, I never allow the caster to > shapechange into something he/she has never seen or studied at least once > and spellcasting could only be done if the new shape allowed speech for > verbal, opposable thumbs for somatic et et al... That would make sense -- after all, why assume that the caster was a bipedal humanoid to begin with? The real consideration should be whether the new shape is similar enough to the original shape for the character to make the same sort of somatic spellcasting movements that he is familiar with. After all, dragons and tritons can cast powerful spells -- but how many human wizards are familiar enough with those forms to cast spells while in dragon or triton form? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Eric Anondson Subject: So where do the spirits of the dead go? In-Reply-To: <20010608031819.E02022DDBCF@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As DM I never lay the "debt to the deity" on the raise recipient, but > on those that wish to see him/her brought back from death. After all > the dead guy didn't ask the Immortal/God to bring him back, he's dead. This got me thinking... I just started paying attention to this thread and I was struck with a question about Mystara I don't know. Other settings seem to have a destination for the spirits of the deceased. The Realms, spirits go to the Fugue Plain, then on to the realm of the patron god. Dark Sun, they all end up in the Gray. Planescape, if I recall, spirits from the Prime pass into the Astral and then on to the afterlife. What goes on in Mystara? Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Shedding Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it is the attitude of this list that I put people down and am critical without any basis I will withdraw from the list effective immediately. I will indeed go and get a life. After losing my wife, a grandmother, and my father within the last six months I don't need an asshole like you ruining this list for me with extraneous material. Until now I had been using this list as a means of communication. I see that only ideas that are popular are suitable for this list. I will now, at your insistence, go away (since I have nothing to offer). George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stone Marshall" To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Shedding Blood > George wrote: > > >If you guys want to rant about RW politics, take it somewhere else. Stop > >wasting my bandwidth. > > ??? after reading the posts you have wrote over the last 2 weeks you write > this??? Get a sense of humor! This has been the funniest thread I have read > yet. Comparing RW politics with Mystara politics is damn funny! Most of your > posts are criticisms and put downs. The biggest waste of bandwith is > listening to you rant about your viewpoints. Sheesh, get a life man! > > Multizar the Amused Mage > > P.S. To make this about Mystara, did anyone know Olivia Karamikos ran her > chariot over a young Traladaran in her youth? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:51:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: George Hrabovsky Subject: To the List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have decide that I am going to leave this list. At one time I thought it was a place where people could freely discuss issues of Mystara and things directly related to it. It has become a platform where people who go against the status quo are jumped on and attempts are made to intimidate them. In my arguments in the past I have avoided personal attacks unless flamed myself. I have stuck to making arguments as clearly and consiely as I can. I apologize if I have offended anyone. I have chosen Mystara as a place where I run a game. It is important to my recreation. Unfortunately I have been feeling harrassed and singled out lately. I state an opinion in a manner no different than the majority of others. I get attacked because the content is different. I am told that I am stupid. I am told that I am mean, because I disagree. I am critical of things that are not well thought out. I am critical when the discussion goes far off topic. I certainly do not like being told how to live my life. For this reason I am leaving. I left this list once before, and did not come back for three years. I thought things had changed. I guess I will leave now. If this is the spirit of people who support Mystara, then perhaps it is better that it die. My only regret in leaving is that I have come to respect some of you. If anyone wants to carry on private communications with me, I can be reached at ghrabovsky@tds.net George George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:59:07 EDT Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Eshriel Orcslayer Subject: OD&D ships for 2E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -Being relatively new to the list I lately (and recently beginning to run a nautical campaign) if anyone had converted the ships found in the RC/Minrothad/Ierendi to 2E "ships and the sea" style? -Eshriel Orcslayer "One day, Alfheim shall be ours once again" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:32:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: The Ancient One Organization: NOLAN P and I Subject: Re: OD&D ships for 2E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eshriel Orcslayer wrote: > > -Being relatively new to the list I lately (and recently beginning to run a > nautical campaign) if anyone had converted the ships found in the > RC/Minrothad/Ierendi to 2E "ships and the sea" style? Yes, I did - should this be in a post (my ship stats) or offlist to the dude him/herself? is it it of general relevance or not? Or am I, by even asking that, maintaining a not-necessarily-true picture of list policing? -J ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Valey of Khyr? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alebane's domain?? so it is in Ogremoor not Glantri nor Orcus Rex.... must be right on the border... and I'd been presuming Rattaya was south of the Glacier (and I had almost told the player playing Alebane in my game that). Yes, if it's not to much trouble I could really use the info, especially with that player playing Alebane.... Mahalo, Greg Caroletti wrote: > I could send > infos if you don't have the Gazetteer. > Anyway, it's the domain of Alebane). _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.