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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:20:56 -0700
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From:         hafnir <hafnir@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
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Hi,


> Unless you're talking about the horrible magic rules from the
> gold box, in which case, i'll leave you at that.


:)  Hey, I actually preferred the gold box magic rules! I can see
why they wanted to change it, although it worked for us, but I thought
the Codex of the Immortals' solution was just much too simple/boring/
not thought out. Actually, in many ways I much prefer the gold box,
but the Codex did add some important things that I really do love, like
the far improved descriptions of the paths to immortality and of the
major immortals, and of how immortals and clerics interact more. So in
my campaign I try to combine the rules introduced in the two sets,
with an edge towards the Codex's stuff to keep us more "modern".  :)



hafnir.

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:14:12 +0100
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From:         Roger WINTER <RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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>From my previous post:
<How many domains should each Immortal have? Should this be a reflection =
of their rank?>
I didn't express this very well. What I meant was how many domains should =
an Immortal grant access to.
>From PHB, deities grant access to between 3 and 6 domains. Translated to =
Immortal ranks this could give the following, as from Andrew's post:

<
Initiate- 3 domains
Temporal/Celestial- 4 domains
Empyreal/Eternal- 5 domains
Hierarch- 6 domains
>

But back to Ilsundal:
I gave him Travel because the elves always seem to be running away from =
something or other.  To the ee'aar he is known as The Guide. (From the =
electronic Savage Coast books) He seems to hide his (elven) followers =
away, hence Protection. Not that I'm trying to give the impression that =
elves are a bunch of frightened children;-) His creation of the Tree of =
Life would imply access to Plant. As a lawful Immortal, Law is applicable. =
As an Energy Immortal, I'll give his clerics access to Fire. His clerics =
need one more as Ilsundal is a Hierarch, and the next most popular domain =
from other sites is Good.

This means Ilsundal must be LG, with access to the following domains: =
Fire, Good, Law, Plant, Protection and Travel.

Now then, on to preferred weapons. Slightly problematical for Mystara, =
where most clerics from WotI use bludgeoning weapons only. Unless WotI or =
some other source specifies anything different, maces for everyone. Of =
course where a race got its OD&D clerical spells via shamans their weapons =
could be more difficult to work out.

I'm working (initially) on Karameikan Immortals, ie Church of Karameikos =
(Chardastes, Ilsundal, Kagyar, Tarastia, Valerias, Vanya), Church of =
Traladara (Halav, Petra, Zirchev), Cult of Halav and  Garl Glittergold =
(Why did his name change to Garal Glitterlode for Hollow World and WotI?). =
 I'll post them when I've finished, suggestions welcomed as always.

Hammer of Ulric

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:03:33 -0400
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From:         Christopher Cherrington
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Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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-----Original Message-----
From: Roger WINTER [mailto:RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK]
>>
Now then, on to preferred weapons. Slightly problematical for Mystara, where
most clerics from WotI use bludgeoning weapons only. Unless WotI or some
other source specifies anything different, maces for everyone. Of course
where a race got its OD&D clerical spells via shamans their weapons could be
more difficult to work out.
<<

IMO weapons allowed by clerics should have a reason behind their use or
restrictions.  A cleric of Vanya, closely related to other churches in
Thyatis & Karameikos, would be under the same restrictions as to use blunt
weapons.  Or the restriction is only imposed on clerics that stay at home to
work in a church, or a cleric of Vanya at 5th level may take up a sword.
Their needs to be a universal common thread to impose such a restriction of
weapons on all clerics.  Why would the same restriction be placed on a
Cleric from the Church of Traladara, as to one from the Church of
Karameikos?  They are different races, religions, and sociality.  The only
possible clause would be the  Nithian Traladaran Milenean Thratian Thyatian
progression.  If this was the case, then all clerics from Nithian influence
would by tradition (now lost, thanks to Thanatos' meddling) would use
non-edged weapons.  This would also include the countries of Minrothad and
Ylarum to this restriction and any other areas that any of these races
touched or influenced.  This would also mean that most churches were formed
the same way, same traditions, same services, et, but when Nithia was
destroyed, all the left over nations without memories of what they once
were, would differentiate their belief's (and quite possibly, worship
different gods; it would have opened the doors for all the newbie immortals
to pick up followers from the ancient immortals that don't even remember
their past).  Now, Alphatian influenced nations, like Ochalea, would not
have formed religious concepts the same way and therefore not use the edged
weapon restriction.  This would bring up even more controversy between
Thyatis and Alphatia, the clerics would be opposing each other (even when
they have the same faith) because one respects the edged weapon restriction,
and the other doesn't.  'The Alphatians are not true believers!  They spill
blood, by blade, in the face of their enemies!'  This kind of strife makes
for a more crusade like rivalry.

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:56:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, hafnir wrote:

> :)  Hey, I actually preferred the gold box magic rules! I can see
> why they wanted to change it, although it worked for us, but I thought
> the Codex of the Immortals' solution was just much too simple/boring/
> not thought out. Actually, in many ways I much prefer the gold box,
> but the Codex did add some important things that I really do love, like
> the far improved descriptions of the paths to immortality and of the
> major immortals, and of how immortals and clerics interact more. So in
> my campaign I try to combine the rules introduced in the two sets,
> with an edge towards the Codex's stuff to keep us more "modern".  :)

The only thing I _didn't_ like about the Gold Box was the magic rules
actually (and bias.. mostly because I _still_ don't understand the
nuances)

I prefer the Codex for their simplified magic rules, no more obscure
tables with varying PP costs per sphere and all that crazy stuff. Plus,
the Gold Box didn't make the distinction between PP and Temporary PP very
clear. At least the codex called them PP and TP ^_^.

The best mix, IMHO, is to take the actual Immortals rules from the codex,
only because it's a much cleaner and less arcane system, and to use the
Gold Box for a lot of the planar terminology and extras. Plus they left
Tonals out of the Codex!! How can you have a proper Immortal adventure
without floating spheres of noise?


Ethan

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:58:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Roger WINTER wrote:

> Now then, on to preferred weapons. Slightly problematical for Mystara

Nope.

IIRC Illsundal's clerics can use bows, right? I don't have WoTI with me
right now..


Ethan

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:20:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Jennifer Guerra <valerya1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Tome site search
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Hi again,

Just to let everyone know:  Since the Tome of Mystara site is an archive
now, we've added a site search feature.  Enjoy.


Jennifer Guerra
for Tome of Mystara e-Zine  http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:35:26 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Christopher Cherrington
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Subject:      Re: FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
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-----Original Message-----
From: SteelAngel [mailto:edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU]
>>
Plus they left
Tonals out of the Codex!! How can you have a proper Immortal adventure
without floating spheres of noise?
<<

Don't forget the Nippers!

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:39:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
In-Reply-To:  <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F72559C4F2B@JOSHUA>
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Christopher Cherrington wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SteelAngel [mailto:edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU]
> >>
> Plus they left
> Tonals out of the Codex!! How can you have a proper Immortal adventure
> without floating spheres of noise?
> <<
>
> Don't forget the Nippers!

Agh!

The only good use of nippers is to let them loose on Toril.


Ethan

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:53:15 -0400
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Subject:      Creational Theories
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I will post my story of the Mystara Creation Mythology later, but does
anyone else have any interesting creation myths that can be applied to
certain religions or races of Mystara?  This would add tremendous detail for
background info on character attitudes and clerical worship.  Most of us, I
believe, know how the Norse pantheon applies to the Northern Reaches and the
Antalians.  The Ylari follow the Koran (precepts of Al Kalim) except they
worship a pantheon of immortals.  Renardy has Saints.  The Carnuilh, Robren,
and Eusdria follow a semi druidic to total druidic society.  All these
people would have different views on creation.  Just like the Conan the
Barbarian movie, the thief worshipped the god of the sky, and Conan
worshipped the god of the earth; they had their differences 'My god is
better because he stands on top of yours!'

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:02:26 +0000
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Mike Harvey <gm@DSL-ONLY.NET>
Subject:      Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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Anyone doing this?

As much as I hated the old FR, I really like the new hardback for 3e.
One thing that is "missing" (IMO) in Mystara is generic fantasy;
Mystaran cultures are psuedo-historical for the most part. We had
been discussing dropping Alphatia and replacing it with a homemade
generic fantasy kingdoms based loosely on Greyhawk. However I've
started thinking that we could just eliminated Skothar and replace it
with Faerun. At 35th level, Elminster is a good match for the
superpowers of Mystara, so things seem to match pretty well
mechanically. One sticky point is immortals vs gods.

Anyway, this is how I see it working: Brun and Davania exist in the
west, as before. Faerun replaces Skothar, in approximately the same
location as the Minaean Coast. Since Faerun is somewhat larger,
Waterdeep is at about the same lattitude as Oceansend (46 N), Thyatis
City corresponds to Athkatla in Amn, and Thanegioth corresponds
roughly to Chult. The Sea of Dawn is roughly the same size as before.
Due to curvature of the globe, Alpha is much nearer to Icewind Dale
than Thyatis is to Amn. Bellissarea goes away (no great loss),
replaced by open sea. Alphatia still exists but not as powerful, and
has little or no contact with Faerun. Possibly the Alphatians are
related to Netheril in some way.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is thinking along these lines.

Mike


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Harvey
gm@dsl-only.net (formerly bing@iccom.com)
http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:56:50 +0200
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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Mike Harvey wrote:
>
> Anyone doing this?
[..]
> Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is thinking along these lines.

Uhm, I remember a map by Mystaros (IIRC), setting the main continent
from Greyhawk at the eastern end of Skothar.

As for generic fantasy in Mystara, I think you can play Karameikos,
Wendar, Norwold and (future) Vestland as fairly generic kingdoms --as
they were in the first modules.

Myself, I have been using bits of the various non-core FR stuff -- that
is Maztica, Al Qadim & Kara-Tur, to support the corresponding Mystaran
nations. BTW, you will note that Al Qadim has many common points with
Ylaruam, so that a de-FRized Al Qadim fits very well with the existing
Emirates material. I'm also going to play one of the "Corsairs"
adventures in my Savage Coast campaign.
Maztica can be used for the oltecs/azcans. I think more for a campaign
set in the distant past or the hollow world than for a savage coast
campaign, but it could also help with the Atruaghin clans (especially
Tiger and Bear). I could also see the Maztican adventures set along the
Savage Coast.
I've never considered moving an entire continent into Mystara, though.
Since Mystara has no true Common Tongue, I don't have an strong reason
to move a continent, when I can just move the characters.
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
agosta@elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

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Date:         Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:06:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Mike Harvey wrote:

> has little or no contact with Faerun. Possibly the Alphatians are
> related to Netheril in some way.
>
> Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is thinking along these lines.

It's blasphemy, but It is an interesting idea.

Though, The "superpowers" of Mystara are no match for Elminster as per the
FR book. He is still a munchkin's dream character, and would personally
overpower by sheer force of prescence any of the Mystaran NPCs as they
stand now.

But then again, even the 3e Mystara group hasn't converted any PCs yet, so
Demetrion Kagrinopolis may yt be a contender ^_^


Ethan

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:54:06 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Organization: NOLAN P and I
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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I surveyed the list years ago about this, and it used to be at the back
of the huge spellbook I compiled - parallel Mystaras. A lot of them had
one or more (or all) of the elements from another campaign or rule set
added, from Forgotten Realms to Sailor Moon or beyond.

I added Zakhara on the end of the Savage Coast, making the end of the
Savage Coast the dividing line of mountains with where the Zakharan maps
head east. This makes Skothar and the Sea of Caravans neighbours. It
also makes some sense out of the gibberish written about Nithia and
Yaluaram, as the Nahmeh is the local variant of the Pantheon worship of
Zakhara / Al-Qadim and Yalruam is then one of several Zakharan colonies.
I also more recently added Netheril as N i theril, the precursor culture
to Blackmoor, Thonia, etc. etc.

On the generic fantasy vs. Mystara, I am surprised; I always thought
Mystara was very vanilla, I mean Mystara as originally written and
published. It had all sorts of weird additions, most of them detrimental
to its original spirit (chief offender: Savage Coast / Red Steel) but
the basic tenets of the world were extremely generic. The mixture of
time periods and types of realm up against each other is not as
unrealistic as some sheltered academic types have suggested in the past
but that very admixture is part of generic fantasy - from Conan through
Jack Vance to the modern imitators of Tolkien.

Most importantly, if one starts with a "generic" (ie undetailed ?) world
one will swiftly find all sorts of needs for various details... And
before one knows it *poof* you're back in Mystara.

As for Forgettable Reams being generic - by no means. I agree the new
hardcover gives the poison a pretty wrapper and a sweeter taste, but it
is fundamentally a purely commercial venture by a profit driven
organisation. Gone is any pretense of an ethos of gaming. Perhaps this
is appropriate however, as Vegetable Rooms was the beginning of the end
for the D&D part of the hobby as a hobby rather than a business. 9
million boxed sets and a bankruptcy later back they come with the latest
version of the same old shyte.

FR is not generic, really it's what would have happened to Mystara had
it lived. Just as Red Steel was gratuitously added to Mystara, various
independent game settings were crunched into FR - Al-Qadim not least.
And then there were the world name changes. All most disagreeable.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:43:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         ramhog <ramhog@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
In-Reply-To:  <3B2BAB4E.6669@hotkey.net.au>
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>
>organisation. Gone is any pretense of an ethos of gaming. Perhaps this
>is appropriate however, as Vegetable Rooms was the beginning of the end
>for the D&D part of the hobby as a hobby rather than a business. 9

Vegetable Rooms???


VVH
--

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:21:02 -0600
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From:         ramhog <ramhog@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      So, there I was a the gaming convention today...
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And who should I meet but Steve Miller (of Ravenloft, etc fame). Hell
of a nice guy. Just the day before I was at the game shop flipping
through an old issue of Dragon that had a bio on him wherein it
mentions that his favorite D&D world is our beloved Mystara. Not only
that, but he originally signed on with TSR to write AD&D Mystara
adventures.

His first project? HULE!

So I begged him to post what he'd written to his site
(www.stevemillersband.com) and he gave me an understandably
wishy-washy response along the lines of "we'll see". However, he did
mention that he wouldn't mind adding  Mystara message board to his
site (I think that's where he meant), so he at least is open to
discussing it. He had some interesting/amusing bits that he shared,
among them:

-All the halflings of the Shires were wiped out in his campaign by...
I don't remember- humanoids at any rate. The survivors took up
residence in the Wendar/Denagoth region.

-That the Shires was a Forgotten Realms one-handed exercise on the
part of Ed Greenwood (which makes the above especially amusing). Is
anyone surprised?

-That (yes, it's true, kiddies!) the D&D movie really WAS set in the
Known World but was changed when the line was cancelled!

-That it was Bruce Heard that (probably) came up with the name
"Mystara" (shame on him!)

-The players in his game never got south of Ethengar (!) and when
they went to Hule (in X4 &X5) they circumvented the Known World to
get there.

-That, while he liked the available info in the Almanacs, he didn't
like the timeline. I tend to agree with him there.

-He ran an campaign for three-odd years based on Saga of the
Shadowlord and also got a similar mileage out of the Desert Nomads
series.

-Turns out he only played OD&D before singing on with TSR- never
played AD&D. How cool is that? :D

I think he was set to develop Wendar and Denagoth in addition to
producing a Hule "gazetteer" for AD&D. I'll ask him about that again
tomorrow.


Anyway, if enough folks on the list respectfully request he post his
Hule info, he just might put it up on his site and add a Mystara
message board. I think that would be great if he did that.


More tomorrow-
VVH




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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:09:54 -0700
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From:         hafnir <hafnir@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      FW: [MYSTARA] FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
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Hi,


> the Gold Box didn't make the distinction between PP and
> Temporary PP very clear. At least the codex called them PP
> and TP ^_^.


Hmm, I really don't ever recall having any problem with
distinguishing between the two in the original gold box rules.
That reminds me, I also miss the TP duels immortals could have
with each other!


> use the Gold Box for a lot of the planar terminology and extras.


Yes, this stuff was great! I still use it.


> Plus they left Tonals out of the Codex!! How can you have a
> proper Immortal adventure without floating spheres of noise?


I loved Tonals - we used to run into them all the time!



hafnir.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:15:27 -0400
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From:         Castille Baromon de Preto <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Creational Theories
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>
> From: Christopher Cherrington              > anyone else have any interesting creation myths that can be applied to
> certain religions or races of Mystara?

 The Myth

In the beginning there was nothing but a growing thought, a thought that grew beautiful and radiant.  This creature was female, and since there was nothing, she had no name.  Now through eternity she has been called &#8216;She with no name&#8217;, and that is how she is known.
There was nothing but She with no name, she wanted order in this nothingness, so she willed dimensions.  How many, not even the immortals know.  In the creation an intelligence from the dimensions was born.  It was a group of creatures or beings.  They called themselves the Old Ones.  They were born of order, so they categorized themselves.  They made laws, the natural laws of the universe, good and bad, positive and negative, law and chaos.  They created life in two forms.
The pyroserate or dragon was one of the first; its brothers were the draedon.  They both strived to create others.  The dragon created man, and put him on another creation of a megalith.  The draedon created the diaboli, but made them to the reverse of man and a dimension apart.
The Old Ones knew not of how they were formed, so they made laws that would allow the energies that formed them, to create more.  This has been known as the great experiment.  Soon some of their creations grew in energy and even became beings of energy and the elements, and some even grew to enough power to rule in the laws of chaos and strife.  They learned of the laws and made more creations to grow and in time gain power over the other immortal beings.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:26:32 -0000
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From:         Robert Grabowski <b_grabo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: So, there I was a the gaming convention today...
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>
>And who should I meet but Steve Miller (of Ravenloft, etc fame).
>
Ravenloft was good. But I lik his band the best. Great music.
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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:33:13 -0000
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From:         Robert Grabowski <b_grabo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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>
>But then again, even the 3e Mystara group hasn't converted any PCs yet, so
>Demetrion Kagrinopolis may yt be a contender ^_^
>
Yay! Go Demetrion!
I hope he doesn't get overlooked, as usual, as one of the top mages of
Mystara.
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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:41:04 -0000
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From:         Robert Grabowski <b_grabo@HOTMAIL.COM>
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>
>As for Forgettable Reams being generic - by no means. I agree the new
>hardcover gives the poison a pretty wrapper and a sweeter taste, but it
>is fundamentally a purely commercial venture by a profit driven
>organisation. Gone is any pretense of an ethos of gaming. Perhaps this
>is appropriate however, as Vegetable Rooms was the beginning of the end
>for the D&D part of the hobby as a hobby rather than a business.
>
I'm lost. What is "Vegetable Rooms"?
I also would be interested to know what you mean by an ethos of gaming and
how you think it was present and what makes it absent.
I always thought FR was Ed Greenwood's campaign world in the same way that
Blackmoor was Arneson's and Greyhawk was Gygax's.


>independent game settings were crunched into FR - Al-Qadim not least.
>And then there were the world name changes. All most disagreeable.
>
What was the world name change? I thought it was always Toril?

(P.S. I don't mean this as an attack on what you said, I'm genuinely
confused and genuinely curious, especially about "Vegetable Rooms").
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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:49:25 -0400
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, The Ancient One wrote:

> is fundamentally a purely commercial venture by a profit driven
> organisation. Gone is any pretense of an ethos of gaming. Perhaps this

As if there ever was one? The Forgotten Realms has always been Ed
Greenwood's playtoy, as Elminster definitely makes up for shortcomings
elsewhere.

But truly tell me this: Has the realms changed at all? I mean what,
Elminster got stronger, the drow got stronger, and Volo is still a cheap
ripoff of marco polo, though at least marco went somewhere interesting.
Volo hasn't ever been to kara-tur.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:54:23 -0400
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FW: [MYSTARA] FW: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, hafnir wrote:

> I loved Tonals - we used to run into them all the time!

The only think i didn't like about tonals were their size. I mean
semibreves were somewhere around 12 feet in diameter.

I just halved them IMC. tiny bubbles of sound were a lot more realitic to
me.


Ethan

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:55:43 -0400
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Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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From: "Roger WINTER" <RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK>
>
> I have worked out the classes and races I want to use, I can post these
> if anyone wants, but domains and alignments  for Immortals are proving
> a bit more difficult. I've checked a number of Mystara 3e sites, but no
> one seems to agree.

To start with, we haven't worked out a general theory as to how these
conversions should be done.  I will try to describe at least the beginnings
of such a theory.

> Let's take Ilsundal as an example.
> Is he LG or LN?

Okay, let's develop an alignment theory based on what is said about
clerics and followers of each Immortal in WotI and similar sources.

Sphere of Entropy:  Entropic Immortals are invariably of Evil alignment
and permit their clerics to be of any Evil alignment that is not more
Lawful than their own.  Thus:

"Must be Chaotic" --> Chaotic Evil
"Must be Neutral or Chaotic" --> Neutral Evil
"May be any alignment" --> Lawful Evil

Other Spheres (goblinoid/monster patron):  As above, but shift alignment
from Evil to Neutral on Good/Evil axis and permit clerics to be anywhere
on that axis.

Other Spheres (human/demi-human):  In most cases we can assume
that an Immortal is more likely to be Good than Evil.  The permitted
range of Cleric alignments maps out to exact alignments quite neatly:

"Must be Lawful" --> Lawful Neutral
"Must be Lawful or Neutral" --> Lawful Good
"Any alignment" --> Neutral Good (or possibly Neutral if Immortal is
clearly "not nice")
"Must be Neutral or Chaotic" --> Chaotic Good
"Must be Chaotic" --> Chaotic Neutral

Anyway, back to Ilsundal:  His clerics must be Lawful, and he is openly
associated with the Sphere of Energy, so he is Lawful Neutral by this
system.

> Which of these domains should his clerics have access to? Animal
> (1 site gives this domain) Earth(1) Fire(2) Good(2) Healing(1) Law(2)
> Plant(4) Protection(3) Travel(1) War(1).  IMC Immortals will grant access
> to their own sphere, ie Ilsundal, as an Immortal of Energy grants access
to
> Fire, but what do you think about the rest. IMO he should have Plant -
> How could he do Trees of Life etc without it, Protection - self
explanatory
> and Travel - his followers all seem to be on the move most of the time.

Contrary to other postings, I would not tie number of domains to power
level of the Immortal in question -- other factors could give an Initiate a
lot of domains or a Hierarch as few as three (the bare minimum that I
would allow for the sake of having some sort of choice).  As your list
indicates, there are many possibilities for his domains, so I will try to
work out logically which ones he must have:

Alignment:  Alignment requires that Law be one of his domains.

Sphere:  As an Immortal openly associated with the Sphere of
Energy, Fire should by default be one of his domains.  However,
letting his clerics cast fire spells in a forest would seem to be a
bit reckless, and the lack of fire spells in the Gaz 5 spell list would
seem to indicate a bias against that domain.  With Fire being a
bit problematical, Magic seems to be the safest and most reasonable
substitution.

Race:  As a major patron of elves, Ilsundal should have the Elf sphere
(from the Forgotten Realms book).

Deeds:  Ilsundal led his people on a long journey (Travel) and then made
the first Tree of Life (Plant).

>From the above requirements we already have five domains, which
should be enough:  Elf, Law, Magic, Plant, Travel.

> How many domains should each Immortal have? Should this be a
> reflection of their rank?

Not necessarily.  Higher ranked Immortals will usually but not
necessarily have more varied deeds and interests.  An Immortal
with an intense interest in one area may limit his available
Spheres so as to reduce the chances that one of his clerics will
fail to select the domain of highest interest.

One item not mentioned:  Gaz 5 mentions elven swords and bows.
Mealiden grants his clerics ability with the bow, so that leaves the
sword (specifically the long sword) as the favored weapon for
Ilsundal.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:06:31 -0500
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From:         "Byron D. Molix" <lockheart1930@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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>From:    Christopher Cherrington
><christopher.cherrington@OVERSEASSERVICE.COM>
>Subject: Re: 3e Immortals
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger WINTER [mailto:RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK]
> >>
>Now then, on to preferred weapons. Slightly problematical for Mystara,
>where
>most clerics from WotI use bludgeoning weapons only. Unless WotI or some
>other source specifies anything different, maces for everyone. Of course
>where a race got its OD&D clerical spells via shamans their weapons could
>be
>more difficult to work out.
><<
>

Well, the first thing you should consider is that in 3e clerics can use
simple weapons. A cleric who chooses War as a domain gains access to the
preferred weapon of his or her deity/immortal.  Also, the listings in the
deity/immortal shorthand have only one use (unless the War domain is in the
list, but we've already covered that) it is used for the Spiritual Weapon
spell (the Spiritual Hammer replacement) Basically the deity/immortal gives
the cleric control over a weak version of his or her personal weapon. The
only way in 3e for a cleric to gain a non-simple weapon is for them to spend
feats on specific martial weapons.

Now, as a Mystara GM you can further limit the simple weapons category to
bludgeoning weapons only, but you should give them a free martial weapon
feat (or two) if you do that because it eleminates 10 weapons that they can
use. And 3e clerics don't automatically know how to use a warhammer anymore,
so you might want to do that anyway.  This would also allow you to analyze
any lists of 'allowed weapons' and give clerics of that immortal a chance to
aquire proficiency with one or more of those weapons.

When I ran my campaign, I didn't worry about that much. If a cleric of
Thanatos was going to use a sickle or scythe, they were going to spend a
feat for it.  This personal sacrifice would endear them to their Lord in the
afterlife of course. (or the Undeath if they got lucky)
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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:38:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" <strawberry@JAMM.COM>
Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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Roger:
[Cc'd to the M3E Project Team]

  I've been following your recent 3E Immortals thread with interest.  I
don't know if you're a member of the 3E Project team or not (can't recall, off
hand, if I've ever seen you post, and I don't have the inclination to comb the
membership list for your email address), but I think your input could be useful
if you're not.  We haven't even begun to "officially" touch on Immortals from
the point of view of domains, etc. and it would be nice to have someone involved
who was trying to organize something.

On 15 Jun 2001, at 11:14, Roger WINTER wrote:
> >From my previous post: <How many domains should each Immortal have?
> Should this be a reflection of their rank?>
>
> I didn't express this very well. What I meant was how many domains should an
> Immortal grant access to. From PHB, deities grant access to between 3 and 6
> domains. Translated to Immortal ranks this could give the following, as from
> Andrew's post:
>
> <
> Initiate- 3 domains
> Temporal/Celestial- 4 domains
> Empyreal/Eternal- 5 domains
> Hierarch- 6 domains
> >

  Personally, I rather like this idea.  I suppose that, in the long run,
we'd have to consider how it would apply within the context of an "Immortal
Level Campaign" (assuming we ever get around to that part of the conversion),
but it seems like a fairly simple and straightforward mechanism that I expect
would fit into the "greater scheme of things".

  I suspect there are some people who are on the M3E project team who may
not like the idea -- but then almost every potentially contentious idea put
forth for the project so far has had its vocal detractors. ;-)  I figure that
it's better to get several possible alternatives as suggestions, because then
there is more discussion, more brainstorming, and then we end up with a better
"product" overall.  :-)

> But back to Ilsundal:
>
> I gave him Travel because the elves always seem to be running away from
> something or other.  To the ee'aar he is known as The Guide. (From the
> electronic Savage Coast books) He seems to hide his (elven) followers
> away, hence Protection. Not that I'm trying to give the impression that
> elves are a bunch of frightened children;-) His creation of the Tree of
> Life would imply access to Plant. As a lawful Immortal, Law is
> applicable. As an Energy Immortal, I'll give his clerics access to Fire.
> His clerics need one more as Ilsundal is a Hierarch, and the next most
> popular domain from other sites is Good.
>
> This means Ilsundal must be LG, with access to the following domains:
> Fire, Good, Law, Plant, Protection and Travel.

  This seems fairly well thought out -- I like your reasoning for most of
your choices.

  This does make me wonder, however -- if Ilsundal was only an Initiate,
how you would you have chosen the "first" three domains? And if he were
Temporal/Celestial, which would be fourth?  Similarly, at Empyreal/Eternal which
would be the fifth?  (It'ss something worth considering from the point of view
of selecting options for other immortals.)

  Also, did you give any consideration to the new domains from Forgotten
Realms?  Although not all will map over, several of them seem to be quite
appropriate for Mystaran Immortals (like the "Time Domain", for
Khronus(sp?)), and some are close, but might need some "campaign specific
tweaking".  Even if you don't own or don't even plan to purchase the FR
handbook, most of the new domains are available in the RPGA Guidelines for the
"Living City" campaign.  There's a direct link to the zipped PDF file stored in
the "Bookmarks" area of the M3E Project teams Yahoo! Groups web site.  (URL is
in my signature)

  Finally, what thoughts, if any, have you given to /inventing/ new
domains?  Based on the FR guidelines/Handbook information, providing
"campaign specific" domains seems to be a legitimate practice.  I'd like to
think that, rather than shoe-horning them into the domains we have, any Mystaran
Immortals with a particularly unique aspect to their portfolio might very well
be better served by at least one domain that is suited especially to them.

> Now then, on to preferred weapons. Slightly problematical for Mystara,
> where most clerics from WotI use bludgeoning weapons only. Unless WotI
> or some other source specifies anything different, maces for everyone.
> Of course where a race got its OD&D clerical spells via shamans their
> weapons could be more difficult to work out.

  Personally, I think that, in light of the general "widening of options"
in 3E, maintaining the "blunt weapons only" restriction isn't a /necessary/ part
of Mystara.  On the other hand, someone else did post a response to this
discussing how it might be possible to explain the restriction, and where the
restrictions might very well not apply at all.

  Besides, some Mystara source mentions particular weapons that are allowed to
the clerics of that Immortal (like the spear wielded by Clerics of Odin).  This
should obviously become the "preferred weapon" for that Immortal.

  When there is no "special weapon for Clerics", but there is a weapon that the
Immortal themselves is noted as wielding, then that is a good candidate for
"preferred weapon".

  When neither are available in any source material, I'd recommend that the best
"default choice" would be a blunt weapon of some kind -- mace, war- hammer, etc.
-- but that conversions should at least be open to the idea of other weapons,
depending on who the Immortal is and what their general portfolio is, etc.

> I'm working (initially) on Karameikan Immortals, ie Church of Karameikos
> (Chardastes, Ilsundal, Kagyar, Tarastia, Valerias, Vanya), Church of
> Traladara (Halav, Petra, Zirchev), Cult of Halav and  Garl Glittergold
> (Why did his name change to Garal Glitterlode for Hollow World and
> WotI?).  I'll post them when I've finished, suggestions welcomed as
> always.

  As they say, even a journey of one thousand miles begins with a single
step, and it looks like you have a really good plan -- and I'd suspect that
these really are the "core" Immortals in a majority of "Known World" Mystaran
campaigns.

  Maybe I'll see if I can get a chance to look over the Immortal Codex from WotI
some time this weekend and maybe give some thought to possible suggestions.  :-)

Jenni

--
Jenni A. M. Merrifield
-=> strawberryJAMM <=-
Benevolent Despot of the Mystara 3E Project
M3E Project:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:03:00 -0700
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From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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At 01:55 PM 6/16/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Sphere of Entropy:  Entropic Immortals are invariably of Evil alignment
>and permit their clerics to be of any Evil alignment that is not more
>Lawful than their own.  Thus:

I don't think Entropics are "invariably" Evil. There are several whose
descriptions would possibly lend themselves to a more "neutral" bent,
depending on the source- Hel comes to mind as a possibility for Chaotic
Neutral, and Nyx might be as well.

(Just to head off arguments, I could also buy them being Chaotic Evil and
Neutral Evil, respectively, but I'm just pointing out that Entropy need not
necessarily equate to "Evil".)

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:10:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Organization: NOLAN P and I
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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> I'm lost. What is "Vegetable Rooms"?

a more obscure derivative of FR than Forgettable Realms.

> I also would be interested to know what you mean by an ethos of gaming
ie, a hobby with a qualitative societal element as well as a pure profit
motive - so that supplements to a commercial game follow fan desires AND
make some money AND support a certain almost sporting ethos - compare FR
supplements pandering to the worst sort of munchkinism and Mystara
supplements some of which are almost only of academic interest but which
greatly expand the game world's subtexts - Elves of Alfheim, Ierendi,
etc. Commercial Art is still Art as well as being Commercial - FR went
too far and lost its Art.

> I always thought FR was Ed Greenwood's campaign world

That's the party line - but really Ed Greenwood's own campaign was tiny
and everything else was then added to make a series of bizarrely
inconsistent boxed sets.

> What was the world name change? I thought it was always Toril?

Faerun-Aber-Toril-Aeber-Aebeir-Toruil etc.etc.etc.

> (P.S. I don't mean this as an attack on what you said, I'm genuinely
> confused and genuinely curious, especially about "Vegetable Rooms").

Not a worry - a post such as mine has to be explained sometimes.
Although I think we should probably not let this become another undead
thread.

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Date:         Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:09:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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At 02:38 PM 6/16/01 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> I didn't express this very well. What I meant was how many domains
should an
>> Immortal grant access to. From PHB, deities grant access to between 3 and 6
>> domains. Translated to Immortal ranks this could give the following, as
from
>> Andrew's post:
>>
>> <
>> Initiate- 3 domains
>> Temporal/Celestial- 4 domains
>> Empyreal/Eternal- 5 domains
>> Hierarch- 6 domains
>> >
>
>  Personally, I rather like this idea.  I suppose that, in the long run,
>we'd have to consider how it would apply within the context of an "Immortal
>Level Campaign" (assuming we ever get around to that part of the conversion),
>but it seems like a fairly simple and straightforward mechanism that I expect
>would fit into the "greater scheme of things".

In the vein of the above, I've been toying with (for some time- stretching
back to an aborted AD&D 2nd Edition conversion of Immortals rules)
Experience point gains and losses relating to gaining/losing portfolios-
sort of a combination of the Major/Minor/Lesser Stroke rules of WotI. At
present, this idea would tie in with the domains in some manner, but I'm
not clear how.

>  Finally, what thoughts, if any, have you given to /inventing/ new
>domains?  Based on the FR guidelines/Handbook information, providing
>"campaign specific" domains seems to be a legitimate practice.  I'd like to
>think that, rather than shoe-horning them into the domains we have, any
Mystaran
>Immortals with a particularly unique aspect to their portfolio might very
well
>be better served by at least one domain that is suited especially to them.

So far, I find that the new FR domains have pretty well covered any of my
planned and (half)-started domains. The Renewal domain matches pretty well
with the Rebirth domain I created sometime ago for my writeup of Kelter
Zerben. I'm working with a Light/Prism domain for Ghyrian Immortals (still
missing a spell or two), as well as a Prophecy domain.

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:15:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Cassander Glantri <enchanter_from_glantri@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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Hail Mystarans!

The Archduke returns--albeit from a temporary Internet
address.

I would like to bring up the matter of Elemental
Dominance in Mystara and the Mystaraverse.

In the OD&D rules, there are definite rules about
Elemental Dominance and Opposition. Air dominates
Water, Water dominates Fire, Fire dominates Earth,
Earth dominates Air. A dominant element causes
increased damage (usually double) against its
dominated element, while a dominated element causes
minimum damage (sometimes none) against its dominant
element.
Air and Fire are in opposition (hence the traditional
Alphatian and Flaemish rivalry), while Earth and Water
are in opposition. There is no change in damage, but
there is a natural hostility between opposed elements.
(reaction adjustments).

These rules are reflected in the creatures native to
the Elemental Planes (i.e. fire-based efreet are
hostile to air-based djinn, aerial servants, and
invisible stalkers, but fear water-based hydraxes and
undines).

In the AD&D rules however, these rules are changed.
Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water, and I'm not
exactly sure about dominance and damage adjustments.
But in the A&D MYSTARA Monstrous Compendium, these
changes were reflected in the creature's hostilities
and fears--sometimes against what is written in the
OD&D Rules Cyclopedia.

So, what goes?

Kit Navarro
GPD Archduke
www.geocities.com/principalities_of_glantri

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:16:11 +0200
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Caroletti <scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Re: Creational Theories
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I really like this theory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I may also offer you the "creational theory" of the Outer Beings site...uhm...it's a while
since I uploaded that site!
You may find it somewhere at http://www.geocities.com/iuliusscaevola/
I'll check out where exactly!

Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain of the XXth Cohort
Port Lucinius, Thyatis

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:23:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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Cassander Glantri wrote:

>
> I would like to bring up the matter of Elemental
> Dominance in Mystara and the Mystaraverse.
[..]

> Air and Fire are in opposition (hence the traditional
> Alphatian and Flaemish rivalry), while Earth and Water
> are in opposition. There is no change in damage, but
> there is a natural hostility between opposed elements.
> (reaction adjustments).
[..]
> In the AD&D rules however, these rules are changed.
> Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water, and I'm not
> exactly sure about dominance and damage adjustments.

I tend to ignore dominance in AD&D, at least for fear effects. OTOH, I
use both AD&D and OD&D oppositions, considering the former as elemental
based oppositions, and the latter as history-based oppositions (Air vs
Fire, mostly, as I don't see Earth and Water as opposed anyway, at least
in the Known World politics).

More or less, I would consider:

Air vs Earth = Alphatia vs Thyatis (or Blackhill vs Caurenze, if you like)
Air vs Fire = Alphatian vs Flaems, but also Djinn vs Efreet
Water vs Fire = Glantrian colonists vs Flaems
Water vs Earth = Undersea/Ierendi/Ylaruam vs Thyatis, perhaps
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
agosta@elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:03:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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Gosh...I sure hope they are a profit driven organization.  Could you imagine
if they didn't care about profit and just put out whatever crap lit their
fancy at the moment? Yuck...gone would be the
spell-checking...grammar-checking...et al...

> >As for Forgettable Reams being generic - by no means. I agree the new
> >hardcover gives the poison a pretty wrapper and a sweeter taste, but it
> >is fundamentally a purely commercial venture by a profit driven
> >organisation. Gone is any pretense of an ethos of gaming. Perhaps this
> >is appropriate however, as Vegetable Rooms was the beginning of the end
> >for the D&D part of the hobby as a hobby rather than a business.
> >

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:14:57 -0400
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From:         Castille Baromon de Preto <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Creational Theories
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>
> From: Caroletti <scarole@TIN.IT>
> I really like this theory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, here is more, with more to come when I have time...
The Myth, continued...
The strife of the Great Ones, the original powers that be, has long fought for whom would be the best candidates to attain their powers.  Many battles are still being fought to this day.  On one such battle the Draedon sought to destroy the greatest of megaliths that protected such prime candidates.  This megalith was called Mystara, and the greatest of the Draedon had ripped the heart out of her body.  Soon Mystara was to be a soulless void in the cosmos, with no life to give to those she protected.  The Old Ones intervened on Mystara&#8217;s behave, and gave her the powers that would enable her to achieve great wonders as an Immortal.  When Mystara awoke in her new form, she renamed herself Ordana, and has since protected many things and empowered her empty shell with much more divergence of life.  In her instructions from the Old Ones she created many beings as the faeries, elves, treants, and other nobler of creatures.  Her powers were great at the time and she imbued many of them with her own power and magic, so they would have long lives and care for her empty shell.

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:44:21 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Heard <Dunlendor@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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In a message dated 6/16/2001 8:06:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU writes:


> ie, a hobby with a qualitative societal element as well as a pure profit
> motive - so that supplements to a commercial game follow fan desires AND
> make some money AND support a certain almost sporting ethos - compare FR
> supplements pandering to the worst sort of munchkinism and Mystara
> supplements some of which are almost only of academic interest but which
> greatly expand the game world's subtexts - Elves of Alfheim, Ierendi,
> etc. Commercial Art is still Art as well as being Commercial - FR went
> too far and lost its Art.
>

Y'know, its this attitude of gaming elitism ("My favorite product is by
definition better than YOUR product") that I find really sad and offensive
about participating in these world specific lists. Lets just say that I
disagree with your generalities and particulars in almost every part and I
find myself thinking less of people each and every time this sort of attitude
pops up. Oh well, no one said that just because someone had a love for
something that they had to be lovely.

JMH

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:36:50 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Munchkinism is not a word...was Merging Mystara with the
              Forgotten Realms...
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In my own humble opinion, I think that munchkinism is not a real word. I
started playing DnD 15 years ago in Mystara (you know, the red box). Since
that time I have played in Forgotton Realms, Greyhawk, Dark Sun,
Planescape, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, Maztica,
Al-Quadim,Lankmar,Ravenloft,and my own created world. The only major ADnD
setting I never played was Birthright. The point to this post is to say that
IMC I blend aspects from all games into my Mystara. Certian Immortals have
"chosen", monsters from Athats appear in the Great Waste. I try to blend
role-playing with badass monster bashing. To reiterate...Munchkinisim is not
a word.

                               Multizar the Mage

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:09:50 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Organization: NOLAN P and I
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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James Heard wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/16/2001 8:06:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
> greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU writes:
>
> > ie, a hobby with a qualitative societal element as well as a pure profit
> > motive - so that supplements to a commercial game follow fan desires AND
> > make some money AND support a certain almost sporting ethos - compare FR
> > supplements pandering to the worst sort of munchkinism and Mystara
> > supplements some of which are almost only of academic interest but which
> > greatly expand the game world's subtexts - Elves of Alfheim, Ierendi,
> > etc. Commercial Art is still Art as well as being Commercial - FR went
> > too far and lost its Art.
> >
>
> Y'know, its this attitude of gaming elitism ("My favorite product is by
> definition better than YOUR product") that I find really sad and offensive
> about participating in these world specific lists. Lets just say that I
> disagree with your generalities and particulars in almost every part and I
> find myself thinking less of people each and every time this sort of attitude
> pops up. Oh well, no one said that just because someone had a love for
> something that they had to be lovely.

I have posted why I prefer Mystara to FR, but I actually prefer other
worlds to either of them. I also critiqued parts of Mystara for the same
reasons I gave for disliking FR. When all else fails, try reading other
people's posts before engaging your arch superiority. I think you'll
find if you actually try and understand the big words the post you are
attempting to criticise may be even more diverting for you.

Also, if you take exception to fans supporting their genre or subgenre,
what on earth are you doing on a world-specific list in the first place?
Freeloading for useful rules I suppose.

If you want to say somehting about my post, email me, I won't be buying
into your diatribe any further on the list. It's disrespectful to the
rest of the list, however good it may make you feel to get attention.

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:13:35 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
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Subject:      Re: Munchkinism is not a word...was Merging Mystara with the
              Forgotten Realms...
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... munchkinism is not a real word, it is a colloquial term of art in
gaming. Likewise one could say the same about THAC0 or AC or any of the
other specific terms. Most players and DMs of D&D seem to know what
munchkinism means, so as a colloquialism it works fine.

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:09:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Castille Baromon de Preto <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Creational Theories
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The Myth continued...
The Draedon would not stop at the destruction of Mystara, and soon they colonized a nearby planet with their Carnifex.  The Carnifex there named their colony Domocles, after the Draedon that had destroyed Mystara the first time.  Here the dreaded Carnifex opened portals of great magic to transport their destructive behavior more easily to the life upon Mystara.  Many battles where waged to try and stop the Carnifex, but their magic was too strong.   In this time the most powerful of dragons had made their homes on Mystara, and had long relations with immortal candidates.  Seeing the growing power the Draedon and Carnifex were massing, they broke the Old Ones rules of intervention.  Four of these dragons, Sun, Pearl, Opal, & Star; waged a devastating attack on Domocles.  They destroyed the whole colony of Carnifex, and even destroyed the planet itself.  Thus we have many asteroids surrounding our sun between the great red planet and the giant storm.  As punishment for such behavior, all dragon candidates for immortality would have to mass much power and treasure of every kind before petitioning to their masters, and then subdue their masters in combat before assuming their place in immortality.  Unfortunately the Carnifex had survived by walking through their portals to live among the Mystarans, but that is another story&#8230;

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:22:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         "David S. Leland" <dleland@COGSCI.UCSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Munchkinism is not a word...was Merging Mystara with the
              Forgotten Realms...
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At 11:13 AM 6/18/01 -0700, you wrote:
>... munchkinism is not a real word, it is a colloquial term of art in
>gaming. Likewise one could say the same about THAC0 or AC or any of the
>other specific terms. Most players and DMs of D&D seem to know what
>munchkinism means, so as a colloquialism it works fine.

Um, I think his point was that there's nothing wrong with so-called
munchkinism, and he was just saying that it's not a real word as a
rhetorical move, to argue that it doesn't deserve to be maligned.

Magus Coeruleus

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:31:40 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Zyxl
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Does anyone know what is on the Isle of Zyxl? My players are in a ship and
have gone through the Strait of Izonda and are traveling due West. I was
curious to see what, if any web links have done any work on this island.

                               Multizar the Mage

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:18:51 -0400
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Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Theisen" <jsmill@WANS.NET>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> At 01:55 PM 6/16/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Sphere of Entropy:  Entropic Immortals are invariably of Evil alignment
> >and permit their clerics to be of any Evil alignment that is not more
> >Lawful than their own.  Thus:
>
> I don't think Entropics are "invariably" Evil. There are several whose
> descriptions would possibly lend themselves to a more "neutral" bent,
> depending on the source- Hel comes to mind as a possibility for Chaotic
> Neutral, and Nyx might be as well.
>
> (Just to head off arguments, I could also buy them being Chaotic Evil and
> Neutral Evil, respectively, but I'm just pointing out that Entropy need
not
> necessarily equate to "Evil".)

Just to clarify -- I would view the Sphere of Entropy as ultimately being
inimical to the continued existence of sentient life on Mystara regardless
of the exact attitudes of any particular Immortals.  Thus, anyone who
knowingly and willingly serves the cause of Entropy would have to be
of Evil alignment.  Loki and Hel are both well documented as establishing
cults whose members are unaware of the true natures of the Immortals
whom they serve and so those cults would be treated as following their
purported alignments rather than the real alignments of their patron
Immortals.  Nyx is too honest to pull such scams and thus paradoxically
is less likely than Loki or Hel to have non-evil clerics in her service.

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:26:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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From: "Cassander Glantri" <enchanter_from_glantri@YAHOO.COM>
>
> I would like to bring up the matter of Elemental
> Dominance in Mystara and the Mystaraverse.
>
> In the OD&D rules, there are definite rules about
> Elemental Dominance and Opposition. Air dominates
> Water, Water dominates Fire, Fire dominates Earth,
> Earth dominates Air. A dominant element causes
> increased damage (usually double) against its
> dominated element, while a dominated element causes
> minimum damage (sometimes none) against its dominant
> element.
> Air and Fire are in opposition (hence the traditional
> Alphatian and Flaemish rivalry), while Earth and Water
> are in opposition. There is no change in damage, but
> there is a natural hostility between opposed elements.
> (reaction adjustments).
>
> These rules are reflected in the creatures native to
> the Elemental Planes (i.e. fire-based efreet are
> hostile to air-based djinn, aerial servants, and
> invisible stalkers, but fear water-based hydraxes and
> undines).
>
> In the AD&D rules however, these rules are changed.
> Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water, and I'm not
> exactly sure about dominance and damage adjustments.
> But in the A&D MYSTARA Monstrous Compendium, these
> changes were reflected in the creature's hostilities
> and fears--sometimes against what is written in the
> OD&D Rules Cyclopedia.
>
> So, what goes?

For Mystara I would be strongly inclined to go back to the original
circle of dominance and ignore any extraneous crap introduced by
a too rigid adherence to the Greyhawk/Planescape cosmology.  On
Mystara, each element is hostile to all of the other three in some
sense -- if it it not in direct opposition, then it dominates that element
or is dominated by it.  In 3E terms, I would recommend the following
in regard to elemental domains:

Rebuke/command:  Retain this ability in regard to named element.

Turn/destroy:  Transfer this ability from the designated element to the
element dominated by the element in question.

Evil/hostility:  Anything strongly associated with the opposed element
radiates evil to a cleric with access to a particular elemental sphere.
On Mystara, no cleric should have access to more than one elemental
domain for rather obvious reasons.

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:04:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:04:49 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Robert Grabowski <b_grabo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Munchkinism is not a word...was Merging Mystara with the
              Forgotten Realms...
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Well, munchkinism is a real word. Or at least it describes a real thing, the
same way the phrase Monty Haulism does.

But I agree with the point you're making, I think. I mean, gaming is about
fun. If other people are playing in a way we wouldn't, why should we care?
If they like it, I mean.

People might think that in the long run power-gaming types would have more
fun if they played some other style (like, my style), but people have to
find that out themselves. Insulting or condecending will just at most hurt
their feelings and make them think like they're wrong to be playing at all,
or they'll just not listen to what is said. I doubt it will persuade them to
try it your way.

I mean, I'm sorry if this sounds bad, but The Ancient One said James Heard
was engaging in arch superiority, but usually when someone uses the word
munckin to refer to other gamers, they're engaging in a sort of arch
superiority. Like, I mean, can't we all just have fun and enjoy playing?
It's a game. I mean, I wouldn't let a 40th level Archmage Paladin Ninja
Psionicist into my game, and I'd kinda hope that the people that play such
characters eventually find other methods of playing enjoyable, but who am I
to say they shouldn't do what is fun for them? After all, the game's got
tons of high-level spells and powerful magic items, why can't people use and
enjoy them? Oh well, no need to fight over it anyhow. It's supposed to be
fun, not flames.

>In my own humble opinion, I think that munchkinism is not a real word. I
>started playing DnD 15 years ago in Mystara (you know, the red box). Since
>that time I have played in Forgotton Realms, Greyhawk, Dark Sun,
>Planescape, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, Maztica,
>Al-Quadim,Lankmar,Ravenloft,and my own created world. The only major ADnD
>setting I never played was Birthright. The point to this post is to say
>that
>IMC I blend aspects from all games into my Mystara. Certian Immortals have
>"chosen", monsters from Athats appear in the Great Waste. I try to blend
>role-playing with badass monster bashing. To reiterate...Munchkinisim is
>not
>a word.
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:06:45 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Does anyone think
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Sorry about repeating the last post everyone. I had a thought...does anyone
think that the Hutaaka could  be an offshoot race of Lupin?

                               Multizar the Mage

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:24:12 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Munchkinism is not a word...its a state of mind
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I see the point. I have DM'd players who were seriously "ROLE-PLAYING" the
PC's and it was great. Acting out as a character who is, far and away,
nothing like you is great fun. Going into a dungeon to wipe out scum and
collect badass treasure and magic is great fun too. I once had a player who
went around Mystara like he owned the place and was disintegrated by a
beholder(hooray for saving throws!) and another who plotted and schemed to
take the Thyatian Empire! Several PC's have gone into Immortality and others
died at 1st level. Some players cannot see past stats, and others sculpt
their characters like a statue. I will not question the goals of a player,
but I will speak out against the term "Munchkinism", sounds like a sterotype
to me. Know that if I hear the term, it will remind me of all night dnd
sessions on the weekend. Pass the popcorn and I just rolled a "20" on my hit
on the Huge Red Dragon. lol

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Date:         Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:26:15 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Does anyone think
In-Reply-To:  <c1.fa4977e.285ee665@aol.com>
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At 01:06 AM 6/18/01 EDT, you wrote:
>Sorry about repeating the last post everyone. I had a thought...does anyone
>think that the Hutaaka could  be an offshoot race of Lupin?

According to Bruce Heard's Lupin article in Dragon (can't recall the number
offhand), it's just the opposite way around. The Lupins are an offshoot of
the Hutaaka race that arose after the fall of Nithia, and the spread of
Hutaakans and the "thinning" (of sorts) of the gene pool.

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:40:44 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Does anyone think
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At 01:06 AM 6/18/01 EDT, you wrote:
>Sorry about repeating the last post everyone. I had a thought...does anyone
>think that the Hutaaka could=A0 be an offshoot race of Lupin?

>According to Bruce Heard's Lupin article in Dragon (can't recall the >numbe=
r=20
offhand), it's just the opposite way around. The Lupins are an >offshoot of=20
the Hutaaka race that arose after the fall of Nithia, and the >spread of=20
Hutaakans and the "thinning" (of sorts) of the gene pool.


I have the Dragon mag. in my hands now...#237 pg. 70. Sometimes I wish I had=
=20
a scanner so I could put this stuff in my PC so I could read it more often!=20
lol

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:16:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
In-Reply-To:  <00e001c0f7af$381658e0$58a61a26@q6s7w2>
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, David Knott wrote:

> Just to clarify -- I would view the Sphere of Entropy as ultimately being
> inimical to the continued existence of sentient life on Mystara regardless
> of the exact attitudes of any particular Immortals.  Thus, anyone who
> knowingly and willingly serves the cause of Entropy would have to be
> of Evil alignment.

But that is untrue.

Unlike many other settings, undead are not pure evil. Sure some may be
unpleasant, but they are not Evil. On that note then, Nyx is NOT evil.

Since she is NOT evil, then entropy cannot be evil.

Entropy is chaotic. Entropy seeks to break the bonds of order that hold
the multiverse together. Entropics further these goals by starting wars,
inciting riots, mass murder, fear, stealing the bodies of the dead, etc
etc etc.

Not all of these things are evil by definition. Some are, but not all.

However, they are all chaotic.

Entropics should be evil and or chaotic (if not one than the other, and
definitely no "good-aligned" ones)

For example, Thanatos is a disciplined destroyer of worlds. He is VERY
neutral evil - absolute evil.

However, Nyx is not evil, she just has an unhealthy fascination with the
undead. She'd be a great candidate for chaotic neutral.


Ethan

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:51:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Zyxl
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Stone Marshall wrote:

> Does anyone know what is on the Isle of Zyxl? My players are in a ship and
> have gone through the Strait of Izonda and are traveling due West. I was
> curious to see what, if any web links have done any work on this island.

There are small hints at the following locations:
http://dnd.starflung.com/mybelyne.html
(where Bruce Heard assumes Zyxl to be M-Japan)

http://dnd.starflung.com/tangrace.html
(where our famed Captain Scaevola sets Zyxl as the native land of
Demonettes)
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
agosta@elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:05:55 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Ancient One <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Organization: NOLAN P and I
Subject:      Re: FLYING SHIPS, etc.
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Has anyone run substantial adventures with flying vessels? How have DMs
stopped the presence of aircraft destabilising "pre-flight" adventuring?
Do people lose track of older style quests when they get sky ships?

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:18:39 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Angelo Bertolli <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...
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So is that what you think about all the stuff people post?  (Non-profit of
course)

Angelo Bertolli
URL:  http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Daly" <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Merging Mystara with the Forgotten Realms...


> Gosh...I sure hope they are a profit driven organization.  Could you
imagine
> if they didn't care about profit and just put out whatever crap lit their
> fancy at the moment? Yuck...gone would be the
> spell-checking...grammar-checking...et al...
>

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:24:02 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Angelo Bertolli <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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Does AD&D keep the elements aligned too?  (Chaos/Fire, Neutral/Water,
Lawful/Earth, Energy/Air)

Angelo Bertolli
URL:  http://members.fortunecity.com/abertoll

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:28:29 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Angelo Bertolli <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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> However, they are all chaotic.

Except for ghosts.  (RC)

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:18:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         George Hrabovsky <ghrabovsky@TDS.NET>
Subject:      Re: FLYING SHIPS, etc.
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I have run extensive campaigns on skyships. I treat them like a sort of Star
Trek type game. The ship is the background. It allows for rapid transport
into and out of dangerous areas. It is not without risks. It also allows
travel to distant places that might be interesting to explore. Skyships are
not invulnerable to everything. They become very vulnerable when they stop
to allow the crew to do something.

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Ancient One" <greenlantern@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] FLYING SHIPS, etc.


> Has anyone run substantial adventures with flying vessels? How have DMs
> stopped the presence of aircraft destabilising "pre-flight" adventuring?
> Do people lose track of older style quests when they get sky ships?
>
> ********************************************************************
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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:11:32 +0200
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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Angelo Bertolli wrote:
>
> Does AD&D keep the elements aligned too?  (Chaos/Fire, Neutral/Water,
> Lawful/Earth, Energy/Air)

Not really, the elements are Neutral per se, and the elemental beings
are usually neutral as well. The elemental creatures like Undines and
Helions are balanced, so that there are four Elementals of Law and four
of Chaos. Genies are much like the D&D version, plus the water (CN) and
earth (NE) genies. Elemental lords are NE and NG.
And since there are no immortal spheres, there's nothing to constrain
them. Anyway, in Mystara the spheres do exist, so Mystarans would
perceive the elements as aligned.
Note that the alignment you quote is mostly related to Immortals anyway:
Fire beings as Helions, Sollux or Efreet are L also in D&D.
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
agosta@elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:04:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Cassander Glantri <enchanter_from_glantri@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
In-Reply-To:  <OE31QxuQOKeOrdmtMGf0000e691@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Does AD&D keep the elements aligned too?
> (Chaos/Fire, Neutral/Water, Lawful/Earth,
Energy/Air)
>
> Angelo Bertolli

In the MYSTARA Monstrous Compendium, at least they
kept the Law/Chaos axis more important than the
Good/Evil alignment axis.

For example, Erdeens are Earth Elementals of Chaos.
They would not be particularly hostile to most other
earth elementals (N), but they are hostile to Krysts
(Earth Elementals of Law) and other Lawful denizens of
the Elemental Plane of Earth, such as the Horde.

When Elemental Dominance and Opposition are placed
into play, Erdeens would be fearful of Fire Elementals
(Fire dominates Earth), particulalrly the Lawful
Sollux and Helions. They would be naturally hostile to
Water Elementals (Earth opposes Water), but they woudl
be particularly hateful of Lawful Hydraxes.

Kit Navarro

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:12:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>

> On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, David Knott wrote:
>
> > Just to clarify -- I would view the Sphere of Entropy as ultimately
being
> > inimical to the continued existence of sentient life on Mystara
regardless
> > of the exact attitudes of any particular Immortals.  Thus, anyone who
> > knowingly and willingly serves the cause of Entropy would have to be
> > of Evil alignment.
>
> But that is untrue.
>
> Unlike many other settings, undead are not pure evil. Sure some may be
> unpleasant, but they are not Evil. On that note then, Nyx is NOT evil.

I would agree that intelligent undead are not necessarily evil, especially
if they did not become undead voluntarily.

As for Nyx, in WotI her goals are to make the world eternally dark
and dominated by her undead followers.  Even though her entry goes
so far as to say that she is "not particularly evil", the nasty nature of
her ultimate goals would lead me to interpret that as meaning simply
that she is less evil than other Entropic Immortals, but not quite to
the degree of qualifying as "non-Evil".  If you have either of the two
Hollow World products about Milenia, note that the Zargosians who
are her followers are definitely Evil.

Also, at the end of page 4 of the same book there is the statement
that "only beings who are of evil disposition willingly serve Entropy".

> Since she is NOT evil, then entropy cannot be evil.
>
> Entropy is chaotic. Entropy seeks to break the bonds of order that hold
> the multiverse together. Entropics further these goals by starting wars,
> inciting riots, mass murder, fear, stealing the bodies of the dead, etc
> etc etc.
>
> Not all of these things are evil by definition. Some are, but not all.

All of the examples that you listed would seem to be evil.  In any case,
the general goal of Entropy is destructive, with the end of the multiverse
itself as the ultimate goal if Entropy prevails.  While Immortals of the
other Spheres do recognize that such destruction is necessary, they
also know that it must be held in check if life is to continue.

> However, they are all chaotic.

Not all -- there are Entropic Immortals of Neutral alignment.  Hel and
Nyx are both among them.

> Entropics should be evil and or chaotic (if not one than the other, and
> definitely no "good-aligned" ones)
>
> For example, Thanatos is a disciplined destroyer of worlds. He is VERY
> neutral evil - absolute evil.
>
> However, Nyx is not evil, she just has an unhealthy fascination with the
> undead. She'd be a great candidate for chaotic neutral.

But she is not even Chaotic.  At this point I would be inclined to classify
her as Neutral Evil, but within that alignment place her at the most Lawful
and least Evil corner.  Most Entropic Immortals consciously encourage
destruction and general nastiness, but Nyx does not.  She is less actively
Evil -- instead of being consciously destructive and evil, she advances
an agenda whose success would have destructive and evil effects on
the world.  Interestingly, this difference in attitude as well as a more
honest approach actually leave her with nastier clerics than many other
Entropic Immortals.  Loki and Hel, for example, are willing enough to
deceive their clerics that it is quite conceivable for their clerics to be
of
Good alignment (for example, note Kelter Zerben in WotI).  On the
other hand, any living person willing to advance Nyx's agenda would
have to be a nasty misanthrope -- and Nyx seems to be too honest to
set up false cults as Loki and Hel do.

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:16:48 -0400
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From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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From: "Angelo Bertolli" <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM>

> Does AD&D keep the elements aligned too?  (Chaos/Fire, Neutral/Water,
> Lawful/Earth, Energy/Air)

Al-Qadim gave alignment tendencies to each of the four possible types
of gen, but as I recall the alignment tendencies were completely different
from those given in WotI.

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Date:         Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:15:36 -0400
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From: "Stone Marshall" <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
>
> I have the Dragon mag. in my hands now...#237 pg. 70. Sometimes I wish
> I had a scanner so I could put this stuff in my PC so I could read it more
> often!
> lol

WotC already did that for you -- if you can find a copy of their Dragon
magazine CD archive, the full contents of the first 250 issues are all there
on those 5 CDs in PDF format.  I would imagine that this collection is
far cheaper than a scanner.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:39:06 -0400
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From:         Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Elemental Dominance and Opposition
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David Knott wrote:

> Al-Qadim gave alignment tendencies to each of the four possible types
> of gen, but as I recall the alignment tendencies were completely different
> from those given in WotI.

Yes, and different from the corresponding genies' alignments too.
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
agosta@elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:02:49 -0400
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From:         Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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I totally disagree.  The spirit inhabiting the animated corpse is not truly
the person who lived as a mortal.  Its an evil alien spirit.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Knott" <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
>
> > On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, David Knott wrote:
> >
> > > Just to clarify -- I would view the Sphere of Entropy as ultimately
> being
> > > inimical to the continued existence of sentient life on Mystara
> regardless
> > > of the exact attitudes of any particular Immortals.  Thus, anyone who
> > > knowingly and willingly serves the cause of Entropy would have to be
> > > of Evil alignment.
> >
> > But that is untrue.
> >
> > Unlike many other settings, undead are not pure evil. Sure some may be
> > unpleasant, but they are not Evil. On that note then, Nyx is NOT evil.
>
> I would agree that intelligent undead are not necessarily evil, especially
> if they did not become undead voluntarily.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:45:31 -0400
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From:         Christopher Cherrington
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Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Daly [mailto:jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET]
>>
I totally disagree.  The spirit inhabiting the animated corpse is not truly
the person who lived as a mortal.  Its an evil alien spirit.
<<
Ah, foolish mortal, that's what every vampire hunter wants to think before
they learn the truth!
This applies to most undead, especially magically created undead, i.e.
zombies, skeletons, ect.
But most undead, spirits, haunts, vampires, liches, wraiths, ect. are the
doomed souls perverted by the negative forces of Entropy.  IMC if you turn
to destroy these undead, you destroy the once good aligned spirit also, thus
you need to find a way to free the soul before you can lawfully attack the
undead.  This brings in the effect that most undead are cursed, and for
immortal penance you need to find the cure (they still die, but the soul is
saved).  Liches and some vampires chose to be that way, these you can kill
amorally.  Some spirits and/or haunts are deemed restless, and will not
leave until something rights a wrong.  Doing things this way makes battling
undead a missionary type salvation.  For the more powerful undead, once you
free a cursed soul, usually the evil that cursed it in the first place will
know what you have done.  This will bring in more campaign hooks, or the
evil will quickly reanimate the corpse with a truly nasty soul.  This works
better than just saying to the adventurers, there is a vampire, go kill it!
Now the players will have to find a way to destroy the vampire and save
his/her soul.  They will have to seek out information on the cursed person,
possibly finding even more campaign hooks "Look, it says here that prior to
Leona's death to a vampire, she was to be married to Prince Humperdink"
hmm...
Don't worry, young vampire hunter, I used to kill the restless spirits to
save the world; never a care to the damnation of their soul, but know I have
learned the truth, that the living soul still resides in the rotted corpse.
Now look into my eyes...

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:53:37 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Alex Benson <Alex295@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: FLYING SHIPS, etc.
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<<Has anyone run substantial adventures with flying vessels? How have DMs
stopped the presence of aircraft destabilising "pre-flight" adventuring?
Do people lose track of older style quests when they get sky ships?>>

like any aspect of gaming skyships can be overpowering if abused or seen too
much. countering this threat to game balance is the costs and skills needed
to create and maintain such a vessel. most skyships encountered would be
military vessels or the playthings of the rich or noble.

military skyships are obvious targets to avoid by any adventuring band. not
only are their military based and crewed by fighting men and women, they are
also representations of the government. adventurers opposing a military
vessel would essentially be attacking the government. retribution would be
swift, vicious, and be funded by the entire governing body.

skyships owned by the extremely wealthy or nobility would mostly be playtoys.
the focus would be on comfort and travelability. combat would be more
defensive than offensive.

i guess that there could also be utiliterian skyships. government agencies
could have skyship freighters to supply distant colonies. merchants could use
them to move bulk items and raw materials to and from markets. necessity
would really be the deciding factor in the use of expensive skyships in such
roles.

at best...adventurer based skyships would probably be small craft; yachts and
sloops. these would mainly serve as a mobile base of operations. they would
probably assume most crew positions themselves....either directly or using
henchmen. the expert areas would have to be hired out.

the most famous adventurer based skyship has to be the Princess Ark. however,
the PA is not really an adventurer craft. it's a M-Star Trek like craft and
crew, focusing on exploration and diplomacy. the craft originally was a
private vessel, then a family owned casino, then evolving to a commisioned
vessel as Haldemar nearly bankrupted the family treasury restoring the craft.
so really...the PA is a military craft...but on the lines of a privateer.
plus...the PA was not omnipotent. remember that everytime she fought other
vessels she took heavy damage even when voctorious. usually Haldemar and
company got into some trouble while landbound awaiting the repairs to be
finished.

an adversary could easily gain control of or create a skyship. however, this
would be the vessel of a powerful individual with plenty of minions. their
opposition would be comparable to a military vessel. their acquisition of the
craft could be the hook to get the PCs involved. other scenarios abound but
can vary easily for the situation. either way...an adversary using a skyship
will be a powerful adversary. he will be well funded to craft the vessel
and/or have the power to seize the craft from its former owner.

for better or for worse, skyships are part of mystara. you cannot un-invent
them. the means to make them are given and achievable given the ability and
funding. it's up to the Dm to control their use and keep them within the
balance.

i have no problem with skyships. in fact i have found them quite sobering for
PCs that begin to get a bit arrogant. sure the PCs have killed the monsters,
saved the damsel, and saved the world. but they should always be reminded
that there are bigger dogs out there that can squash them like bugs. the
government vessels (military or noble owned) can be a steady reminder of the
power of the government.

when i gamed, i had a PC that had a skyship. Later i retired him to NPC
status when i focused more on DMing. his skyship was acquired when the owner
could not pay his fee. he offered the skyship, a small yacht, to the PC as
partial payment. the vessel was in sad shape and required alot of the PC's
savings to restore. the craft became a mobile base of operations for the
adventuring band, offering comfortable travel and amiable gear stowage.
eventually the vessel went into stowage on Aeria, being lent out to the
University in exchange for certain repairs.

in retrospect the vessel was okay for use within the campaign. one quirk was
the limitation of stowage space. beasts of burden and riding horses were too
large to carry so those had to be purchased anytime the party was in an area
for long and needed them. another quirk was the attention that the vessel
drew. not too handy for covert operations. yet another quirk was the constant
summoning before nobles whenever the vessel berthed into a town. seems the
nobles always expected the PC and his buds to perform some task...usually
right at the upper extent of their abilities. and who can refuse royalty.

in short...skyships are but a facet of the game. any facet can be abused to
cause trouble. put the skyship into the same tense as a sailing ship or
personal domain and everything should be fine.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:21:08 -0400
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From:         Christopher Cherrington
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Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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-----Original Message-----
From: SteelAngel
>>
Unlike many other settings, undead are not pure evil. Sure some may be
unpleasant, but they are not Evil. On that note then, Nyx is NOT evil.

Since she is NOT evil, then entropy cannot be evil.

Entropy is chaotic.
<<

Energy is chaotic, but you have many Lawfully aligned creatures within this
sphere.  Entropy immortals mostly guile and lie to their followers.  Promise
immortality as a god or titan, only to grant it as undeath.  Wanting change
or seeing the world in rose colored glasses seems to be more chaotic, but
undeath, lies, deceit, and directly sending agents of Entropy to murder the
best candidates for other spheres is evil.  Hel is neutral, she reincarnates
the souls of creatures as beastmen, orcs, trolls, e.t. All of this is just a
'nice' way of saying "ha, ha, you fool!  I tricked you into becoming a nasty
little goblin, and not only did I trick you, I tricked all the other
immortals out there to let me claim all these lost souls to do it with!"
That is evil, but nicer than bringing them back as undead.  It is more of an
immortal compromise and the true veil of the evil acts of Entropy.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:21:52 -0400
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, David Knott wrote:

> Hollow World products about Milenia, note that the Zargosians who
> are her followers are definitely Evil.

Followers do not always reflect the god they worship.
I'll leave finding the real-world examples up to you.

> other hand, any living person willing to advance Nyx's agenda would
> have to be a nasty misanthrope -- and Nyx seems to be too honest to
> set up false cults as Loki and Hel do.

Honesty is not found in the alignment "Neutral Evil".


Ethan

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:24:20 -0400
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From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:

> I totally disagree.  The spirit inhabiting the animated corpse is not truly
> the person who lived as a mortal.  Its an evil alien spirit.

Not at all!

Vampires are still the same person after death. It is the act of dying
that scars their soul.

The same is with Liches, and any number of other intelligent undead.


Ethan

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:40:17 +0100
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From:         Roger WINTER <RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK>
Subject:      3e Immortals - lets make it easy for ourselves.
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Should all Energy clerics have the same choice of domains?
This comes from analyzing the Savge Coast Campaign Book Part 3 (electronic =
version), which suggested 2e priest spheres for each 0e sphere
Energy =3D Fire Chaos Magic Sun (War Protection Healing)
Matter =3D Animal Earth Law Plant (War Knowledge Healing)
Thought =3D Air Good Knowledge (Protection Healing)
Time =3D Healing Knowledge Water (Animal Death Plant Sun)
Entropy =3D Death Destruction Evil War Strength
The minor access is shown in brackets, but some of you might think this =
gives too many domains, except for Entropy. Note that some priest spheres =
do not translate into 3e domains, and these have been excluded. None of =
the 2e materials break it down any further than this.

I haven't used FR domains, cos I don't have it. I'm not getting it just =
for the rules parts which surely should have been in PHB or DMG if they =
are of use in all campaigns.

Favoured weapons and alignments can come straight from WotI, 2e Karameikos =
and electronic Savage Coast. Where this has never been specified, =
Spiritual Weapon provides a default (I don't have PHB with me to check)
For Karameikan Immortals this would be:
Immortal                Align   Weapon
Chardastes      Any     as Neutral
Garl Glittergold        Any     Battleaxe
Halav           Any     Short sword
Ilsundal                LG/LN   as Law
Kagyar          Any     Light hammer
Petra           L/N     Warhammer
Tarastia                LG/LN   Battleaxe
Valerias                Any     Short sword
Vanya           Any     Longsword
Zirchev         N       Long bow

This sure cuts down on the amount of work required to convert!

The argument about whether a particular Immortal is Good or Evil is =
largely meaningless in Mystara. The conflicts here are primarily about Law =
and Chaos, with Entropy usually inciting the conflict.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:59:10 +0100
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From:         jason o'brien <jobo@EIRCOM.NET>
Subject:      Fw: Mystara
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Guy's
I dropped Steve Miller a line as was suggested by another list member, this
was his reply. So their is hope yet.
Mortus.

From: Steve Miller <nuelow@earthlink.net>
To: <jobo@eircom.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Mystara


> Jason,
>
> I'd love to give Mystara fans new stuff to read... but my Mystara notes
are not in electronic format. If I find the time, I'll type them up, though!
>
> I'm glad to here there are still folks out there who love the Old Girl.
Some of my most successful campaigns were run in the Known World!
>
>
> Steve Miller

> From: "jason o'brien" <jobo@eircom.net>
>
> > Hi Steve,
> > I am a member of the MML, and we have recently been informed that you
have
> > some work based in Mystara, would it be possible to add these works to
your
> > web site, or maybe to Shawn Stanley's which is the official site for
> > Mystara.There are a lot of us Mystara fans out there who would like to
see
> > it.
> > regards
> > Jason O'Brien.
> >

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:05:06 +0100
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> Hel is neutral, she reincarnates
> the souls of creatures as beastmen, orcs, trolls, e.t. All of this is just
a
> 'nice' way of saying "ha, ha, you fool!  I tricked you into becoming a
nasty
> little goblin, and not only did I trick you, I tricked all the other
> immortals out there to let me claim all these lost souls to do it with!"

She is also renowned for reincarnating the souls of evil people into the
unborn babies of good people.
Mortus.

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:10:29 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
Subject:      Coat of Arms
Comments: To: MYSTARA-L@.WIZARDS.COM
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For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the colors of the =
merchant houses. Can anyone help me?=20

JK Wolf

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:23:08 -0400
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From:         Christopher Cherrington
              <christopher.cherrington@OVERSEASSERVICE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I can scan in and send you the coat of arms for each house, but they are in
b&w, no color.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Kelly [mailto:joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 1:10 PM
> To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: [MYSTARA] Coat of Arms
>
>
> For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the
> colors of the merchant houses. Can anyone help me?
>
> JK Wolf
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:40:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         ramhog <ramhog@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Mystara
In-Reply-To:  <00a701c0f8da$1a164540$80f5869f@pbncomputer>
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>Guy's
>I dropped Steve Miller a line as was suggested by another list member, this
>was his reply. So their is hope yet.
>Mortus.
>

I'm especially interested in seeing what he did with Hule. I was
always under the impression that Bruce and the gang were saving Hule
for something big- that Miller managed to squeeze a three-year
campaign(!) out of that area gives me reason to think he'd be the man
for the job.



VVH
--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:55:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
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I have the B&W coats of arms n the Gazetter but I need the color scheme, =
In the game of thrones, the knights commonly wore the colors of the house =
they served. Is there no color descriptions of the coat of arms? If not I =
will have to guess then...

>>> christopher.cherrington@OVERSEASSERVICE.COM 06/19/01 10:23AM >>>
I can scan in and send you the coat of arms for each house, but they are =
in
b&w, no color.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Kelly [mailto:joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 1:10 PM
> To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: [MYSTARA] Coat of Arms
>
>
> For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the
> colors of the merchant houses. Can anyone help me?
>
> JK Wolf
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:47:20 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
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While I'm at it, is there a coat of arms for the houses of Glantri?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:04:10 -0500
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From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:10:29 -0700 Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA> writes:
> For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the colors of
> the merchant houses. Can anyone help me?

There isn't any official colors... here are some suggestions:

The Chancellor: Black and Gold (also the colors on the Republic's flag)
Mauntea: Black and Green
Linton: Black and Red
Hallonica: Blue and Gold
Corun: Red and Yellow
Pennydown: Blue and White
Umbarth: Blue and Green
Al-Azrad: Yellow and Brown
Franich: Purple and Gold
Toney: Red and Gray

How's that?


           Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/anowack/
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:56:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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Perfect Aaron! Thank you very much!

JK wolf.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:49:50 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
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actually for the last two how about,
Franich: Gold and Gray
Toney: Red and Purple

what do you think?


>>> anowack@JUNO.COM 06/19/01 01:04PM >>>
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:10:29 -0700 Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA> writes:
> For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the colors of
> the merchant houses. Can anyone help me?

There isn't any official colors... here are some suggestions:

The Chancellor: Black and Gold (also the colors on the Republic's flag)
Mauntea: Black and Green
Linton: Black and Red
Hallonica: Blue and Gold
Corun: Red and Yellow
Pennydown: Blue and White
Umbarth: Blue and Green
Al-Azrad: Yellow and Brown
Franich: Purple and Gold
Toney: Red and Gray

How's that?


           Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/anowack/
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:06:56 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         John Calvin <chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
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>>
For me to run my campaign of Kings in Darokin I need the colors of the merchant
houses. Can anyone help me?

JK Wolf
<<

Hi,

I know you've laready had some suggestions, but let me recommend this site
(surprised Damon hasn't already, but perhaps he's a bit modest).

http://www.geocities.com/brendan_corliss/

Just enter the site, click on the Heraldry link, and look for Darokin.  There
you have it!  Most of the Daro houses are already done (and in color...just
like you wanted it).  You could probably save those images and use them at your
leisure or print them up right from the web page.

Anyway, enjoy.  Hope this helps some.
John

=====
Rule #53.
If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never,
do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her.

from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:10:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         John Calvin <chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>>
While I'm at it, is there a coat of arms for the houses of Glantri?

JK Wolf
<<

Oops, almost forgot.  There are also several of the Glantrian coats, as well as
some from the rest of the KW.

http://www.geocities.com/brendan_corliss/

John

=====
Rule #53.
If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never,
do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her.

from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:12:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Brendan Corliss <brendan_corliss@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coat of Arms
In-Reply-To:  <sb2f252a.034@mail.davis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Well, you can check out the Corliss Enterprisies site:

http://www.geocities.com/brendan_corliss/

It has tons of Mystara heraldry. Most are not
official... there are many complete changes, as well
as slight modifications from official sources.

Anyway, I have most of the major houses of Darokin, as
well as Glantri, Karameikos, and most of the national
coats of arms.

Brendan Corliss
Corliss Enterprises, Ltd.
Darokin City

aka Damon Alexander Brown

=====
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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:29:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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Well, I thought about writing a sarcastic reply in which I would say, "Stay
tuned for Death Wars, starring Johnny Brite as everyone's favorite dashing
young hero with an overbite...thrill to the action as he battles evil by
claw and tooth...pine with him as he mourns the love he can never have..."

I would have pointed out how ridiculous that would be...but then I realized
it pretty well describes some books and tv shows out there.

I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into a
long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.

----- Original Message -----
From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:
>
> > I totally disagree.  The spirit inhabiting the animated corpse is not
truly
> > the person who lived as a mortal.  Its an evil alien spirit.
>
> Not at all!
>
> Vampires are still the same person after death. It is the act of dying
> that scars their soul.
>
> The same is with Liches, and any number of other intelligent undead.
>
>
> Ethan
>
> ********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:01:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
Subject:      heraldry
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I could get my friend to scan the official ones and email it to you. How's =
that? let me know, :)

JK Wolf

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:08:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
In-Reply-To:  <002b01c0f906$ff18a8a0$8a63d8cd@jdaly>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:

> I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into a
> long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.

And I would suspect that your "proof" would be easily full of enough
logical holes to pass a tank through.

Undead are not always evil. Some are. Some are VERY evil.
But others are not. I can give a few examples from pop culture, or even
the "good Lich" from Monsters of Faerun.

Ethan

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:17:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <ghrabovsky@TDS.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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Indeed.

I think that Anton Sulescu is an excellent example of a good undead. He is
well liked by his subjects, he does not abuse his condition. He is a
powerful force to protect the community. He is known to love his subjects,
and they love him.

This is hardly what one would judge to be evil.

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into
a
> > long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.
>
> And I would suspect that your "proof" would be easily full of enough
> logical holes to pass a tank through.
>
> Undead are not always evil. Some are. Some are VERY evil.
> But others are not. I can give a few examples from pop culture, or even
> the "good Lich" from Monsters of Faerun.
>
> Ethan
>
> ********************************************************************
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>

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:31:13 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Matthew Wang <mattwang97@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Tome and Blood (Cool things for Mystara)
Comments: To: mystara3E@yahoogroups.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Tome and Blood, a sourcebook for Sorcerers and
Wizards, comes out this month and Eric Noah's 3rd
Edition site has some cool tidbits about it:

http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/

Some of the prestige classes in the book can easily
replicate the Secret Crafts in Glantri!

Here are the ones I thought were the most applicable:


Alienist - A madden mage who deals with the terrifying
reality of powers and entities from the far reaches of
time and space, eventually becoming an outsider
herself.

Dragon Disciple - Tougher, stronger mages who can cast
spells, claw/bite, and oh yes...breathe doom like a
dragon...

Elemental Savant - Harness the powers of air, fire,
water, and earth for magical power to eventually
transcend their mortal forms. Able to resist and focus
elemental energies.

True Necromancer - A student of the arcane and divine
arts that can raise greater undead creatures and
invoke the fearful undead power of energy drain.

Mage of the Arcane Order - Academic mages that focus
on developing their powers and metamagical feats. By
drawing upon The Order's energy matrix, these mages
can call spells from a special spell pool.

Mindbender - Dominating the minds and dreams of
others, these mages can permanently thrall dominated
creatures at high levels.

Pale Master - These arcane masters of the dead can
eventually summon greater undead creatures and even
drain the life energy from living beings.

All in all I am gearing up to buy this!


Matt Wang

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:31:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Tome and Blood (Cool things for Mystara)
In-Reply-To:  <20010619233113.14930.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com>
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Matthew Wang wrote:

> Mage of the Arcane Order - Academic mages that focus
> on developing their powers and metamagical feats. By
> drawing upon The Order's energy matrix, these mages
> can call spells from a special spell pool.

#!$&!#*$!@*&^*!@^$!*$!@

DARNIT ALL TO LIMBO!
I _just_ wrote something just like this for the technomancer prestige
class for the next DV guide.
Oh well. Time adapt and improvise. Maybe I can mesh the two ideas
together.


Ethan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:29:55 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Angelo Bertolli <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Ghosts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You know, this whole thing reminds me of an argument I heard a player give
to a DM once after his character died:  "You can't stop me from playing a
ghost, because you can't prove they don't exist."


> Well, I thought about writing a sarcastic reply in which I would say,
"Stay
> tuned for Death Wars, starring Johnny Brite as everyone's favorite dashing
> young hero with an overbite...thrill to the action as he battles evil by
> claw and tooth...pine with him as he mourns the love he can never have..."
>
> I would have pointed out how ridiculous that would be...but then I
realized
> it pretty well describes some books and tv shows out there.
>
> I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into a
> long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
> To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals
>
>
> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:
> >
> > > I totally disagree.  The spirit inhabiting the animated corpse is not
> truly
> > > the person who lived as a mortal.  Its an evil alien spirit.
> >
> > Not at all!
> >
> > Vampires are still the same person after death. It is the act of dying
> > that scars their soul.
> >
> > The same is with Liches, and any number of other intelligent undead.
> >
> >
> > Ethan
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
> > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
> >
> >
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:34:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Christopher Cherrington
              <christopher.cherrington@OVERSEASSERVICE.COM>
Subject:      Almost Finished
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I finally got most of what I need to start my PBeM in the Known World.  Now
I am having problems with the website.  Does anyone know how to get rid of
all the Front Page Server extensions?  My site host does not allow them, now
I can't get the site uploaded.
Also if anyone one else wants to join the PMeM, based on the mercantile
system from the Gaz of Darokin & Minrothad, let me know at this address
omentievlo@hotmail.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:11:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Yeah well, I suppose if you really wanted to, you could write a whole
romantic story of the littlest demon...one who was dashing and gentled and
just wanted to be loved...

But it would still be ridiculous...tank or not.

----- Original Message -----
From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into
a
> > long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.
>
> And I would suspect that your "proof" would be easily full of enough
> logical holes to pass a tank through.
>
> Undead are not always evil. Some are. Some are VERY evil.
> But others are not. I can give a few examples from pop culture, or even
> the "good Lich" from Monsters of Faerun.
>
> Ethan
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:01:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
In-Reply-To:  <000201c0f9e3$01bc8b80$2063d8cd@jdaly>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jeff Daly wrote:

> Yeah well, I suppose if you really wanted to, you could write a whole
> romantic story of the littlest demon...one who was dashing and gentled and
> just wanted to be loved...
>
> But it would still be ridiculous...tank or not.

It's not true and you know it. I'm not talking about "The Little Vampire"
or even Buffy's Spike (though that would be a good example of a Vampire
undergoing an alignment change).

There are examples in Mystaran material in which the undead are not evil.
What about the undead in charge of the Serrainian Library? Thar is a
nosferatu, and his people do not see him as evil.


Ethan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:02:23 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA>
Subject:      Dungeons?
Comments: To: MYSTARA-L@.WIZARDS.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable

You want dungeons? go here, it has a random generator seed of=20
900,000,000
You will never have to worry about a duplicate!

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~generators/dungeon.cgi

cheers!

JK Wolf

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:18:31 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?q?Niall=20Hosking?= <talmyr@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dungeons?
In-Reply-To:  <sb30d73a.075@mail.davis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

--- Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA> wrote: > You want
dungeons? go here, it has a random
> generator seed of
> 900,000,000
> You will never have to worry about a duplicate!
>
> http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~generators/dungeon.cgi
>

Hmm that looks suspiciously like the one on the Dragon
#284 CD...

=====
--
Niall Hosking
talmyr@yahoo.com

"Practice random kindess and senseless acts of beauty"

____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:29:50 EDT
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Stone Marshall <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Does anyone know?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Does anyone know what civlilzations are on the Tangor Peninsula?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:41:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Christopher Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Almost Finished
In-Reply-To:  <71E277A7F4FCD2118A700008C79F72559C5140@JOSHUA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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O.K., it is not pretty, but my website is up.  If anyone is interested
in giving me feedback, you're more than welcome.
If anyone wants to join my play by email game, you're more than welcome.
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/i/n/inour12/spice/Home.htm
That=92s it, enjoy.  I am going to bed now (work and this has left me =
with
2 hours of sleep)  ;)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:48:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Christopher Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Does anyone know?
In-Reply-To:  <111.1447014.2862c42e@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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The Tanagoro live there, it sounds like a smart answer, but it's true.
The Tanagoro are a black skinned race of humans, their descendants are
the Nuari of the Pearl Islands, and the Yavdlom people.  As far as what
type of civilization they have, I imagine it to be somewhat like
Zimbabwe or Medieval Ethiopia.  Their civilization must still be intact,
or they would have shown up in the Hollow World.  Part of the Yavdlom
history has them still in contact with the Yavi.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
> Behalf Of Stone Marshall
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:30 PM
> To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: [MYSTARA] Does anyone know?
>
> Does anyone know what civlilzations are on the Tangor Peninsula?
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:19:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         larry lamb <boonedale@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dungeons?
In-Reply-To:  <20010621011831.23373.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

The there somethinf like this for 2end edition? This
is 3erd is it not?



--- Niall Hosking <talmyr@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> --- Joe Kelly <joe_kelly@DAVIS.CA> wrote: > You want
> dungeons? go here, it has a random
> > generator seed of
> > 900,000,000
> > You will never have to worry about a duplicate!
> >
> > http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~generators/dungeon.cgi
> >
>
> Hmm that looks suspiciously like the one on the
> Dragon
> #284 CD...
>
> =====
> --
> Niall Hosking
> talmyr@yahoo.com
>
> "Practice random kindess and senseless acts of
> beauty"
>
>
____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at
> http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
> or your free @yahoo.ie address at
> http://mail.yahoo.ie
>
>
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> LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
>


=====
The "Fighting Bunnys" main site:

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/myrobotechgames/index.html

To group site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame

__________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:20:28 CEST
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Wizards Shopper <scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Rif: [MYSTARA] Does anyone know?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

No canon information is provided for the Tangor Peninsula.
However, I have begun a  work on the region, that you may
find at this address>
http://www.geocities.com/tangormina

Greetings,

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:30:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <ghrabovsky@TDS.NET>
Subject:      Web Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have grown tired of having to change the location of my Borigon web site,
so I have purchased a web domain and transferred the site there. The domain
will be mine for 5 years. Hopefully I will not have to change it again. The
new address is,

www.borigon.com

This will include my Mystara stuff.

    George

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:26:22 +0200
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Fw: Mystara
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
jason o'brien &lt;jobo@EIRCOM.NET&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&lt;&lt;I dropped Steve Miller a line as was suggested by another list
member, this <br>
was his reply. So their is hope yet. &gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
From: Steve Miller &lt;nuelow@earthlink.net&gt; <br>
&gt; Jason, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I'd love to give Mystara fans new stuff to read... but my Mystara
notes <br>
are not in electronic format. If I find the time, I'll type them up,
though! <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I'm glad to here there are still folks out there who love the Old
Girl. <br>
&gt; Some of my most successful campaigns were run in the Known
World!<br>
<br>
Well Jason, not to crush your hopes under the brutal reality, but this
has already been heard here in the MML. I am not blaming Mr Miller, who I
consider one of the best TSR writers of them all, but he said the same
things some years ago when inquired about the Wendar notes he
had...<br>
The point is that these people write as a job, so u shouldn't expect them
writing RPG stuff here for free, since this would be a waste of time for
them. Especially now that Mr. Miller is going to leave WotC and work by
himself (dunno if he'll work as freelancer or what).<br>
<br>
And if you're thinking about Bruce Heard's articles written on the MMB,
then I make u note he was no more part of TSR when he wrote those, and,
OTOH, he was also trying to catch the WotC's eyes to still contribute as
freelancer, so he had to put out stuff... I think now he has given up,
prolly, given the fact he's got a new (different) job and a son to
raise.. that's life<br>
<br>
Instead of waiting for his notes, just find the time to write down your
own ideas: it's easier and more exciting ;)<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
DM <br>
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac <br>
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn<br>
<br>
&quot;You don't stop playing because you grow old: <br>
you grow old because you stop playing!&quot;<br>
<br>
Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: <br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967" eudora="autourl">http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967</a><br>
</u></font>And Mystara Italian Homepage at: <br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940" eudora="autourl">http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940</a><br>
<br>
</u></font>Join the Mystara Webring at: <br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html</a><br>
</u></font>Join the Starfleet Academy at: <br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://gioco.net/startrek" eudora="autourl">http://gioco.net/startrek</a></u></font>
(Italian RPG PBEM)<br>
<br>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:05:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      X1 & X2 ESD..... maybe wizards are getting on with it...
In-Reply-To:  <sb30d73a.075@mail.davis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

maybe wizards are getting on with it, and not just
full of hot air about our world. I found X1 & X2 in
there online store as ESD's. They however do not
appear to be mentioned anywhere else on the site
though and no other ETA's for Mystarian
products....(grumble grumble).... and that perhaps
means no free downloads for our world...

But it's a start at least, and if they are doing the
modules first maybe I can finally get my hands on X10
at a reasonable price. with any luck the gaz's might
be just around the corner.

The link to X2 is:
http://store.wizards.com/product.asp?ProductID=6112
and X1:
http://store.wizards.com/Product.asp?ProductId=6111

However they still have the evil no shipping to
notice:

This product cannot be currently shipped TO the
following countries:

Austria, Australia, Aruba
Barbados, Belgium, Bulgaria, Bahamas
Canada, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Denmark
Dominican Republic, Estonia, Finland, Gibraltar
Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy
Jamaica, Kyrgystan, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein
Lithuania, Luxembourg, Latvia, Monaco
Malta, Netherlands, Norway, New Zealand
Poland, Portugal, Sweden, Slovenia
Slovakia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan

So let the bitching and moaning begin...


Chris.
(Who is glad terms over and has just managed to clear
the backlog of several hundred e-mails...)
(and also can't believe he missed a stefan thread
*grin* I might have something to say about that
later.)

p.s. Shawn: love the new frontpage, but I'm not sure
about pure white backgrounds and maybe bering back
some  kind of buttons. For me that was always the
thing that made wading through the wealth of
infomation the easyist on your site.

__________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:20:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      First Mystara ESDs Out!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a heads up that some Mystara ESDs have been released!

They are:

X1: Isle of Dread
X2: Castle Amber


           Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/anowack/
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:19:13 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         "David S. Leland" <dleland@COGSCI.UCSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: X1 & X2 ESD..... maybe wizards are getting on with it...
In-Reply-To:  <20010622020510.2372.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com>
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http://www.bastionpress.com/esd.htm

This page contains a link to the .PDF file that is updated every so often
with the progress of ESDs, including the products being located, scanned,
sent to Wizards, and date of availability.  It includes EVERYTHING
Mystaran, I believe.  You just have to scroll down far enough for some of
it.  Unfortunately, the pricing has gone from a flat free or 3.49 to more
variable, and the X modules released are being priced at 4.99, which I
think is a bit high.  Does anyone know if there is supposed to be any kind
of subscription deal where you pay a lump sum for access to the ESDs for a
given gameworld or something?

Thanks,
Magus Coeruleus

At 07:05 PM 6/21/01, you wrote:
>maybe wizards are getting on with it, and not just
>full of hot air about our world. I found X1 & X2 in
>there online store as ESD's. They however do not
>appear to be mentioned anywhere else on the site
>though and no other ETA's for Mystarian
>products....(grumble grumble).... and that perhaps
>means no free downloads for our world...
>
>But it's a start at least, and if they are doing the
>modules first maybe I can finally get my hands on X10
>at a reasonable price. with any luck the gaz's might
>be just around the corner.
>
>The link to X2 is:
>http://store.wizards.com/product.asp?ProductID=6112
>and X1:
>http://store.wizards.com/Product.asp?ProductId=6111
>
>However they still have the evil no shipping to
>notice:
>
>This product cannot be currently shipped TO the
>following countries:
>
>Austria, Australia, Aruba
>Barbados, Belgium, Bulgaria, Bahamas
>Canada, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Denmark
>Dominican Republic, Estonia, Finland, Gibraltar
>Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy
>Jamaica, Kyrgystan, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein
>Lithuania, Luxembourg, Latvia, Monaco
>Malta, Netherlands, Norway, New Zealand
>Poland, Portugal, Sweden, Slovenia
>Slovakia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan
>
>So let the bitching and moaning begin...
>
>
>Chris.
>(Who is glad terms over and has just managed to clear
>the backlog of several hundred e-mails...)
>(and also can't believe he missed a stefan thread
>*grin* I might have something to say about that
>later.)
>
>p.s. Shawn: love the new frontpage, but I'm not sure
>about pure white backgrounds and maybe bering back
>some  kind of buttons. For me that was always the
>thing that made wading through the wealth of
>infomation the easyist on your site.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:50:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals - lets make it easy for ourselves.
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From: "Roger WINTER" <RWINTER@ACAS.ORG.UK>

> Should all Energy clerics have the same choice of domains?

Definitely not!  In 3E, the choice of domains is the main factor that
distinguishes different deities (or Immortals for a Mystara campaign).
In addition, some Immortals (such as Loki and Rafiel) deliberately
obscure their Sphere associations.  Immortals openly associated
with the Sphere of Energy should probably share one or two domains
but not be completely identical in that regard.

> This comes from analyzing the Savge Coast Campaign Book Part 3
> (electronic version), which suggested 2e priest spheres for each 0e sphere
> Energy = Fire Chaos Magic Sun (War Protection Healing)
> Matter = Animal Earth Law Plant (War Knowledge Healing)
> Thought = Air Good Knowledge (Protection Healing)
> Time = Healing Knowledge Water (Animal Death Plant Sun)
> Entropy = Death Destruction Evil War Strength

The main problem with this approach is that spheres have to cover a
lot more ground than domains do.  The core list of basic 3E cleric
spells covers a lot more than the 2E sphere of "All" does.  To trim
down that list, I would take the following steps:

1) Remove all alignment based domains (as they are highly inappropriate
for Lawful Immortals of Energy or Chaotic Immortals of Matter, to cite
two obvious examples).  These domains should be available to all
Immortals of the appropriate alignments regardless of Sphere.

2) Remove all "minor" domains, as you hinted.

3) Remove Knowledge from Time list -- that domain is much more
obviously associated with Thought.

4) Remove War from Entropy list, as it is shared by two other
non-Entropic Spheres as a minor domain.

5) Remove Strength from Entropy list, as it is too positive in nature --
all of the other domains associated with Entropy involve something
inherently negative and/or destructive.

6) Thought is now down to only two domains.  Add prestige domain
Mind from Defenders of the Faith to its list as a third option.

7) Time is also down to only two domains.  Add prestige domain
Celerity from Defenders of the Faith as its third option.

That leaves us with the following lists for the five Spheres:

Energy = Fire Magic Sun
Matter = Earth Animal Plant
Thought = Air Knowledge Mind
Time = Water Healing Celerity
Entropy = Death Destruction Evil

Immortals who are openly associated with a Sphere should select 1-2
domains from the appropriate list, as most probably have good reason
to reject at least one of the available options.  To cite some obvious
examples, Ixion would definitely select both Fire and Sun, while
Ilsundal would reject both in favor of Magic.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:54:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Does anyone know?
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From: "Stone Marshall" <Mystara2001@AOL.COM>

> Does anyone know what civlilzations are on the Tangor Peninsula?

The only civilization officially described is that of the demi-ogres
who colonized the west coast of the Arm of the Immortals (see
Dragon #200 for details).  Other civilizations described in various
articles on Shawn's site or in the Mystara Almanac should for the
most part be descendants of the Tanagoro (see Hollow World
boxed set for details about those removed to the Hollow World).

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Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:14:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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From: "SteelAngel" <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 3e Immortals


> On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, David Knott wrote:
>
> > Hollow World products about Milenia, note that the Zargosians who
> > are her followers are definitely Evil.
>
> Followers do not always reflect the god they worship.
> I'll leave finding the real-world examples up to you.

Yes, but at least some followers should reflect the power that they
serve.  Now -- does Nyx have ANY non-evil followers?

> > other hand, any living person willing to advance Nyx's agenda would
> > have to be a nasty misanthrope -- and Nyx seems to be too honest to
> > set up false cults as Loki and Hel do.
>
> Honesty is not found in the alignment "Neutral Evil".

With one exception -- those who are too powerful to care what others
think of them.  Thus, as a Hierarch, Nyx can afford to be honest about
her intentions -- it is her evil followers in mostly non-evil cultures who
must be more circumspect.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:22:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 3e Immortals
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From: "Jeff Daly" <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
>
> I'm not sure how I would explain that undead are evil without going into a
> long proof that I just really don't have the stamina for.

Let's try this -- the status of being undead burdens any being with a
nasty taint as well as a temptation to totally give in to evil and thus
said status is inherently evil.  Some beings with a strong connection
to their values from mortal life may hold out against that taint and/or
temptation for a long time and thus remain neutral or even good on
the Good/Evil alignment axis -- but any such being is in a constant
struggle against the forces of Entropy that have invaded his or her
very being and are always threatening total corruption.

Thus, while it is possible for undead to be non-evil, they have an
evil aspect within themselves that is always threatening to overwhelm
them and turn them into evil monsters if they ever give up the struggle
against their inner demons.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:35:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara RPG Discussion <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <uashell@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: [mystara3E] Tome and Blood (Cool things for Mystara)
Comments: To: mystara3E@yahoogroups.com
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From: "Matthew Wang" <MattWang97@yahoo.com>

> Tome and Blood, a sourcebook for Sorcerers and
> Wizards, comes out this month and Eric Noah's 3rd
> Edition site has some cool tidbits about it:
>
> http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/
>
> Some of the prestige classes in the book can easily
> replicate the Secret Crafts in Glantri!
>
> Here are the ones I thought were the most applicable:
>
>
> Alienist - A madden mage who deals with the terrifying
> reality of powers and entities from the far reaches of
> time and space, eventually becoming an outsider
> herself.

Let's see -- that would be the Secret Craft of Illusion (Gaz 3) or
Dreams (G:KoM).

> Dragon Disciple - Tougher, stronger mages who can cast
> spells, claw/bite, and oh yes...breathe doom like a dragon...

Dracology, obviously....

> Elemental Savant - Harness the powers of air, fire,
> water, and earth for magical power to eventually
> transcend their mortal forms. Able to resist and focus
> elemental energies.

Elementalism, naturally....

> True Necromancer - A student of the arcane and divine
> arts that can raise greater undead creatures and
> invoke the fearful undead power of energy drain.

Necromancy....

> Mage of the Arcane Order - Academic mages that focus
> on developing their powers and metamagical feats. By
> drawing upon The Order's energy matrix, these mages
> can call spells from a special spell pool.

The Radiance?

> Mindbender - Dominating the minds and dreams of
> others, these mages can permanently thrall dominated
> creatures at high levels.
>
> Pale Master - These arcane masters of the dead can
> eventually summon greater undead creatures and even
> drain the life energy from living beings.

Not quite sure what to do with these two.  (?)

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