* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Started at 03-06-08 03:53 PM by Koushiro Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000569 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-06-08 03:53 PM Thread Title : AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Well I'm studying my DMG at the moment and I'm puzzling out how to get encounters set up and run, but I'm a bit curious if anyone would mind helping me out and giving me some suggestions? What's a good mix of battles for a group of new adventurers for a day? How many is too many things like that? Also, could someone help me with the segment thing? I know spells are cast by segments, and the surprise round has a lot to do with them too, but beyond that are they just ignored or what? I'm starting up a Greyhawk campaign to take over where some of the stuff we've been doing in the RPGA has left off, plus I've got some mods to run too. I'm new at this, though reading books printed a year+ before I was born is kind of surreal... Any help would be awesome, thank you!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Mock26 Date : 03-06-08 06:23 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Segments are just another breakdown of increments of time. One year = 365 days. One hour = 60 minutes. One round = 10 segments. That's it. As to how it is used in regards to spells, the casting time is generally in segments. So, a typical third level spell has a casting time of 3, which means three segments. Now, combine this with the initiative roll and consider the initiative roll to be the segment count. So, if the adventureres rolled a 5 and the monsters rolled a 9 this would mean that on the characters would start their actions on the 5th segment of the round and the monsters on the 9th. A mage casting fireball would start his casting on the 5th segment and would end on the 8th segment. Now, if the monsters had rolled a 7 instead of a 9 on initiative this means that they could would attack before the mage finishes casting his spell, thus allowing for the casting to be disrupted. Weapon speeds work in a similar manner. If one the adventurers had a weapon with a speed of three his attack would occur on the 8th segment. With weapon speed it is possible to lose initiative yet still go first, or to win initiative and go last. It takes a while to get used to weapon speeds but once you do they can make the encounters very realistic. For simplicity sake, though, a lot of people seem to keep the segments and casting times but toss weapons speed out the window. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-09-08 01:41 PM Thread Title : Okay, planning a campaign! Okay, so I'm just thinking there is more to this segments thing then there really is. Awesome then! I'm going to be starting up a campaign that''s going to be based around rebuilding a failing Dukedom (Duchy? I think that sounds better) in the World of Greyhawk as a base. Probably in the Shield Lands. Anyone got any tips of suggestions for me? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Alas Date : 03-11-08 01:42 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters What level are the characters in your party? The composition and level of the party really has an effect on what sort of monsters you can throw at them. Also keep in mind that under 1st edition, treasure counts towards XP, so you'll want to be selective about rewards. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-11-08 03:23 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters The party is going to be composed of first level characters, and I'm not 100% sure about the composition. There won't be a lot of them though. :( The costs for man-at-arms though are pretty clear and I've got some ideas floating around if they're looking to hire some. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Alas Date : 03-11-08 04:03 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters The costs for man-at-arms though are pretty clear and I've got some ideas floating around if they're looking to hire some.War dogs can be a nice force booster in the beginning as well, though hirelings may actually be cheaper at a daily rate. I'll check me books for 1st-level appropriate challenges, but in general, 1st edition first-level characters have fewer hit points and recuperative powers than characters in later editions. You're going to want smallish monsters confronting the party in ones and twos, preferably spaced out by clever traps and puzzles. (Unless, of course, the players don't mind having back-up characters ready for when the first two or three are cut down. :) ) With the right narration, though, even the "smallish" monsters can be pretty scary and make the PCs work for their XP. (For example, a giant bug is kind of a laughable "foe," but a giant bug dropping off the ceiling and onto the cleric's face is a pretty memorable encounter.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 03-11-08 04:54 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters I put this up on an earlier post, but maybe it would help. Concerning monsters to put up against 1st level parties, from the 1st ed. Monster Manual, I'd say... Orcs (abt. 1 per PC), skeletons (abt. 1 per PC), kobolds (abt. 1.5 per PC), humans (bandits - abt. 1.5 per PC), goblins (abt. 1.5 per PC), giant rats (abt. 2 per PC), killer frogs (abt. 1 per PC), Ghoul (abt. 1 per 3 PCs), Hobgoblin (about 1 per 2 PC's), giant lizard (abt. 1 per 3 PC's), Ogre (1 per party of 4 or more), large spider (abt. 1 or 2 per encounter), stirge (abt. 1 per PC), wolf (abt. .5 per PC), zombie (abt. 1 per PC). A few simple traps, covered pits, 10 ft. deep with some spikes at the bottom, stuf like that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Alas Date : 03-12-08 09:09 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Barronsword called out a good list there, though I'd shy away from big-damage dealers like the ogre for a 1st level party. Under ideal circumstances, a 1st level fighter with Con 18 will have 14 hit points; everybody else will have substantially less. Any critter doing more than 1d6 damage per successful attack is going to seriously jeopardize the party's survival. Personally, I'd stock the dungeon with monsters that have: 1 HD or less AC 6 or worse Damage 1d6 or lower Conveniently, Barronsword already mentioned most of them, so I'll just look at the ones from the original Monster Manual thematically. Intelligent Foes (orc, goblin, kobold) I think these are actually the biggest threat to a 1st level party for several reasons. They're intelligent, which means they can use tactics and exploit their environment; they're social, which means they can appear in numbers; and they can use weapons, which not only do a lot of damage but have the potential to do it at range. Kobolds may only have 1-4 hit points, but a couple of them with crossbows behind cover are worth twice their weight in hurt. Give an orc with a longsword a lucky break, and he'll one-shot anybody that isn't a fighter class. I'd use these guys sparingly, possibly as advance scouts or look-outs for a larger force to be encountered during later levels. Animals and Vermin (baboon, jackal, wild dog, giant rat, giant centipede, large spider, leech) These are sort of stereotypical 1st level foes because they're small, weak, and easily overcome. Fortunately, they are also creatures with a high creepy-crawly factor, so the real issue becomes presentation. Real giant rats are just gross, but a dungeon giant rat with a wicked gleam in its eye popping out of a book shelf is the opening move in a freak fest. Nobody feels guilty whacking vermin (or questions why they're there), and anti-adventurer attitude can always be chalked up to the corrupting influence of an evil temple or artifact. Just have them dripping off the ceiling and popping out of unexpected crannies, and be sure to visually demonstrate how big the bugs are ("Thiiiiiiis big"). Real Monsters (manes, larva, skeleton, stirge) These are "special effects" critters, and good candidates for fight-of-the-night for 1st level characters. They're unusual looking, unnatural in origin (well, the stirge might have an ecological claim), and behave very differently from mundane vermin or humanoids. I'd make these the guardians of the low-level dungeon's big treasure-- the demons/undead because they don't need sustenance to guard it, and the stirges because they can fly through inaccessible exits to hunt and roost. Whatever I put into the dungeon, I try to leave "safe spaces" and escape routes for the party if they suddenly discover that they're down to 1 hp each. This assumes, of course, that there's a dungeon. If you're doing an outdoorsy/wilderness adventure, the dynamic can be really different. I've always thought it would be neat to do a cross-country battle with a big foe over a few hours or days and nights, the monster and the party taking turns ambushing and retreating until they can't go any further. But, that's what I've got to offer at the moment. Stay aware of the 1st level party's fragility, and remember that it's easier to inflate a little threat than nerf a big one. Have fun! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-12-08 10:24 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Setting the scene can make a big difference, as well. Think of it like the scene description in a play or novel and paint a picture of it for your players minds-eye. Not, "You enter a room with 5 kobolds in it.". More like, "You enter a doorway. The door appears to have been long since removed, though the remains of hinges are still present. The room you are in is dark and has an unplesant, foetid smell to it, along with the smell of smoke. Across from you, in the far right corner, some coals are still gleaming in a hearth of some kind. The ceiling disappears into darkness above you.There are small, shadowy figures moving in front of the coals. These figures appear to be 4' tall or less. They move toward you...roll initiative." Then, once there is light in the room, or as the fight moves into a lighted area, describe the creatures without necessarily naming them, particularly if it is the first example of the creature they have faced. It all adds to the experience the players have. :rimshot: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-13-08 10:04 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Well that sounds like a lot of awesome suggestions, I really appreciate that guys. Any other tips or tricks for the new DM just starting out in AD&D that you'd like to pass along? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Alas Date : 03-14-08 08:45 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Photocopy the important tables (attack, saves) out of the DMG-- you'll be referring to them constantly. Don't overload the characters with magic items-- once something has been given, it's very hard to get it back. If the spellcasters have a few signature spells they like to whip out, think about the rules and exploits for those spells... because the players sure will. Gaps in melee combat ability can be quite profound in AD&D. Before you throw a monster at the party, look at the numbers and think about how the PCs will handle it if the fighter goes down, or if the cleric is out of healing spells. Don't be afraid to edit a monster's stats to meet your needs. (This should be way easier in AD&D, because there are fewer stats to keep track of.) Have fun! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Mock26 Date : 03-14-08 12:42 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Get an address book and a small spiral notepad. Write a very brief description of your NPC's in the address book. It is a quick and easy way to keep track of them. Anytime you have to make up ANYTHING, write it down in the spiral notebook. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-14-08 02:06 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Awesome tips, thanks! Luckily I managed to find a DM's screen, really old one that's kind of beat up but it's got all the tables and charts in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : RedWizard Date : 03-14-08 02:53 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters You were smart to pick up a 1st edition DMG screen. I love mine for both RP and nostalgic reasons but it has all the charts you're likely to need in any given combat situation. This includes saves, to-hit tables, weapon damage, armor class listings and even psionics should your campaign use them. Oh and they make it easier to roll dice and read material in private. It sounds like you have a pretty interesting campaign premise, full of politics and factions. Dont be afraid to have 1st level characters treated like the pawns they are (as seen by the resident powers that be). Make them work it out for themselves who is doing what to whom. A perfect example for the location you named would be to have the Order of the Shield Knights engaged in some sort of defence/initiative against the hated land of Iuz and yet having to work with (tolerate) the presence of the Knights of the Hart or the Knights of the Watch. In WWII there was often friction amongst the allied commanders. Throw spies in the mix, just who is working for who? Give everyone they meet an agenda;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Oxlar Date : 03-14-08 06:11 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters I would be careful about putting in monsters that have combat removal properties to them, such as paralyzation from ghouls or carrion crawler. As a matter of fact I'd keep out the crawlers until they are at least level 3, those things can easily be game ending. The first few levels are great though because it forces you to focus on the ambiance and set up, which is often times overlooked later on. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-18-08 01:20 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters How many combats should the PCs get into in a day too? I don't think the wizard is going to be too happy once he casts his Shocking Grasp. Does he need to actually make an attack roll with it? Or does it just go off? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : RedWizard Date : 03-18-08 01:58 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Shocking Grasp requires a touch attack to hit roll. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Oxlar Date : 03-18-08 03:01 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters How many combats should the PCs get into in a day too? I don't think the wizard is going to be too happy once he casts his Shocking Grasp. Does he need to actually make an attack roll with it? Or does it just go off? I don't look at it in those terms. This is some new methodology for game design in 3rd and 4th which I think is lame. Just set your world/environment up as you see fit and makes logical sense. Design the lair, have fun. Let the players decide how they want to tackle the situation and how big of a bite they want to chew on. Unless your railroading them into something like fighting in slave pits or something, just set it all up as an environment and not according to encounters per day BS. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Mock26 Date : 03-18-08 07:05 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters How many combats should the PCs get into in a day too? Just play it by ear. If you also keep track of their hit points and mentally note the spells being cast my the mages you will be able to tell how far the group can go. I think, though, that the biggest clue will be the actions of the players and their characters. They will know when they've had enough to the day and will (usually, but not always) start to look for a place to hole up for the night. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-20-08 04:33 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Hey, the game isn't much fun if all we're doing is making new characters all the time. None of us have played an official 1st edition AD&D game before so I want it to last a while. Not to say I won't punish my PCs for doing stupid things, I just don't want the whole campaign to fall apart because I had one too many goblins attack or one too many encounters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Extempus Date : 03-20-08 05:20 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters When I DM, I won't kill off PCs unless the plot calls for it and I provide a way to raise them afterwards (I actually killed my dad's archer on purpose so he could be animated as an intelligent undead monster, which was integral to the plot of the adventure... I'm sure he was wondering what the hell I was doing, but he was restored to life literally a few hours afterwards). Otherwise, if they do something dumb and would be killed in a real-world situation doing the same thing, then that's it, they're dead, lol. When it comes to 1st and 2nd level characters, they are pretty weak and won't stand up to a lot, so, while you will challenge them, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to make the opposition too strong to kill any of them (but sometimes, freak die rolls will do so)... so, if the PCs were attacked by some goblins, I'd give a vague reply as to numbers (they won't be there counting them all as they're defending themselves!), so if it looks like they're being overcome, you have some leeway to cut down on their numbers. There really are a lot of options, such as another party happening upon the battle, another monster showing up that scares the goblins away, providing the PCs with a safe escape route no one noticed before the battle began, etc. Basically, as DM, your job is to challenge them, not kill them, but that's just IMHO... I guess the reason I've always felt that way was because the second DM I adventured with way back in December 1981 felt it was his duty to kill everyone in The Village of Hommlet, and out of maybe a dozen characters who started, only 2 survived... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Oxlar Date : 03-20-08 06:04 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters When I DM, I won't kill off PCs unless the plot calls for it and I provide a way to raise them afterwards (I actually killed my dad's archer on purpose so he could be animated as an intelligent undead monster, which was integral to the plot of the adventure... I'm sure he was wondering what the hell I was doing, but he was restored to life literally a few hours afterwards). Otherwise, if they do something dumb and would be killed in a real-world situation doing the same thing, then that's it, they're dead, lol. When it comes to 1st and 2nd level characters, they are pretty weak and won't stand up to a lot, so, while you will challenge them, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to make the opposition too strong to kill any of them (but sometimes, freak die rolls will do so)... so, if the PCs were attacked by some goblins, I'd give a vague reply as to numbers (they won't be there counting them all as they're defending themselves!), so if it looks like they're being overcome, you have some leeway to cut down on their numbers. There really are a lot of options, such as another party happening upon the battle, another monster showing up that scares the goblins away, providing the PCs with a safe escape route no one noticed before the battle began, etc. Basically, as DM, your job is to challenge them, not kill them, but that's just IMHO... I guess the reason I've always felt that way was because the second DM I adventured with way back in December 1981 felt it was his duty to kill everyone in The Village of Hommlet, and out of maybe a dozen characters who started, only 2 survived... :detect: I don't think anyone here is suggesting you set up something malicious in order to kill as many characters as possible. For one thing I can't judge something based on # of encounters per day, because my group is going to establish that ratio, not me. Also, it heavily depends on the ability of the players in your group. I've had many people in a group that couldn't coherently fight their way out of a wet paper bag collectively, where as I've had a small group that could tactically withstand several times over thier 'normal' percieved capability. There are a LOT of factors. Thats why I say to just make the environment as it would make sense. Then let the players take on as much as they feel comfortable with in the beginning. You will get an idea of their ability to work together or 'think outside the box'. Then you can start customizing things to what you 'expect' out of them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : RedWizard Date : 03-22-08 06:56 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Something that is important to remember when playing in a 1st or 2nd edition game (and wouldn't hurt in 3rd and 4th either) is that it's not a video game. You dont have to keep going forward until the end. Your party has the option to backtrack to a nearby town or basecamp. Rest, regroup and then go back into the thick of things. Sure, they may have to clear some places they had already previously cleared but it shouldn't be much. Also, threats don't always have to be taken head on, if the party is outnumbered or outgunned by a particular part of an adventure then perhaps they should try to devise a way to go around the threat or draw out the threat in a manner they can handle it (for mutliple opponents they could gradually seperate their opponents into numbers they can handle). Too often in 3rd edition I think they set the threat levels so that the party is always capable of straight out defeating whatever they may meet, much like in a video game. I dont see a lot of challenge to that myself. I ran one group back in college that would just run headlong into a combat and keep fighting till they all died then ask why I killed them. I asked them in reply why they didn't retreat? On the flip side, the toughest challenge I ever faced in a module was the vampire Strahd from Ravensloft. Technically by 3rd edition rules we were too powerful to have him be our threat. But the DM had Strahd use hit and run tactics on us. He was a thinking opponent and man we hated him! We only beat him because we stopped charging blindly at him waving swords and tossing fireballls and we started playing him at his own game. If your group is smart and can think outside the box, there are few challenges they can't eventually overcome. This is not to say of course you need to send them against Fire Giants at 1st level but neither do you need to unduly worry about tossing more then 3 or 4 goblinoids in the same room. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Koushiro Date : 03-23-08 04:01 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D First Edition Combat and Encounters Basically what I'm getting is that I shouldn't have situations rise up too often where there is a major deadline for things to be taken care of. The same problem for most levels of 3rd edition too. Retreat is known to be an option for these players at least. Excellent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.