Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Agathokles 03-09-08, 04:03 PM	Hi all, I'm considering using the River of Blood adventure idea from this file (congrats to the author for amassing that many hooks, BTW): http://pandius.com/101ideas.html I'm therefore considering the Modrigswerg and their relation to the mysterious Dark Elves (Dockalfar or Svartalfar). Let's start with the latter. There are several ideas around for their nature and origin: Exalted servants of Loki (http://pandius.com/blk_elf.html) The Schattenalfen (http://pandius.com/svartalf.html) Evil psionic/mentalist fey (http://pandius.com/darkelvs.html) Servants of Loki from the Blackmoor age (http://pandius.com/dwrf1age.html) Descendants of the people of Damocles (http://pandius.com/dmcls_qa.html) Now, my own idea (the Damocles one) was mostly based on adapting some AD&D stuff from the Dark Sun setting, something that is not that viable, since I'm DMing an OD&D game right now. The Schattenalfen idea doesn't appeal much to me (Schattenalfen are not that powerful and evil), and neither does the idea of a hidden cabal of gnome-exterminating mentalist fey (too weird). So, I'm considering the "Servants of Loki" idea instead. However, it seems unlikely that the Modrigswerg were able to sacrifice nine Exalted-level beings in order to make their Ring of the Nine Svartalfen. So, the Black Elves of http://pandius.com/blk_elf.html could work, but not as the only Svartalfen (let's say as the Monster Rulers of that race). Now, the question is, where did the lesser Svartalfen come from? It's possible that they were Blackmoorian Elves of some type? Do the Blackmoor Elves have some evil branch that could have survived to contact the Modrigswerg? On another issue, I'll probably have some low level characters (late Basic or early Expert levels) tackle this adventure. Any idea on Modrigswerg items that could be suitable as plunder for the PCs? GP
havard 03-10-08, 05:05 PM	So, I'm considering the "Servants of Loki" idea instead. However, it seems unlikely that the Modrigswerg were able to sacrifice nine Exalted-level beings in order to make their Ring of the Nine Svartalfen. So, the Black Elves of http://pandius.com/blk_elf.html could work, but not as the only Svartalfen (let's say as the Monster Rulers of that race). Excellent topic GP! Since I wrote the Black Elf article, I'm quite pleased to see that you are tending towards that option. I agree with your criticism though. Clearly there were quite a few things I hadn't thought about when I wrote that. Your sollution sounds good to me too. Now, the question is, where did the lesser Svartalfen come from? It's possible that they were Blackmoorian Elves of some type? Do the Blackmoor Elves have some evil branch that could have survived to contact the Modrigswerg? Pre ZGG Blackmoor material doesn't tell us that much about the elves of Blackmoor I suppose. Looking at the ZGG material, there are the Westryn elves who are quite sinister and xenophobic and would make for the best candidates in that region. We could also examine the Mystara sources on the elves of Davania, perhaps linking them to a conflict involving Ilsundal's break away from Evergrun... IMO, if you want to examine the Svartalfar, you have to look at the Ljosalfar aswell. My theory is that the Ljosalfar were elves from Mystara who were offered to move to the Outer Plane of Alfheim (Or Ljosalfheim to distinguish from the KW country) by Odin. The Svartalfar were part of the same group, but individuals who were corrupted by Loki, or perhaps more likely Hel if we want to link this to the Blackmoor era. If we still want to link this to Blackmoor, perhaps the elves were allowed to escape the Prime Plane as a last dicth effort to escape the Great Rain of Fire? On another issue, I'll probably have some low level characters (late Basic or early Expert levels) tackle this adventure. Any idea on Modrigswerg items that could be suitable as plunder for the PCs? Have a look at the kind of gifts the Gods were able to get from the Dwarves of Norse myth. Viking-style weapons (Hammers, axes, swords, spears), rings, drinking horns, crowns, a wig made of metal, cauldrons, helmets etc. Make sure they have suffient norse ornamentation with dragon heads, carved runes, little bearded faces, serpents etc. Havard
Agathokles 03-10-08, 05:58 PM	Pre ZGG Blackmoor material doesn't tell us that much about the elves of Blackmoor I suppose. Save for Menander Ithamis, Lord of the Northern Elves of the Red Wood, the only other elf described is Veslo Meridan, and she could be a half-elf. Looking at the ZGG material, there are the Westryn elves who are quite sinister and xenophobic and would make for the best candidates in that region. I suppose these would be the same elves from the Duchy of Ten that Menander Ithamis is unable to help according to DA1. DA1 says a blight is consuming the elven woodlands there. Anything more on this from ZGG material? This event seems to have some potential. We could also examine the Mystara sources on the elves of Davania, perhaps linking them to a conflict involving Ilsundal's break away from Evergrun... Indeed. Technology-oriented elves, either from Davania or the North, could be the Dark Elves, but this is not entirely likely, since the Dark Elves seem to be more magically oriented. One possibility is that Dark Elves were among those Elves who lost their patron Immortals during the GRoF (as I would assume happened to the Belcadiz, for example), and turned to more unusual forms of magic. IMO, if you want to examine the Svartalfar, you have to look at the Ljosalfar aswell. My theory is that the Ljosalfar were elves from Mystara who were offered to move to the Outer Plane of Alfheim (Or Ljosalfheim to distinguish from the KW country) by Odin. Perhaps the last Eldar? They would fit well, given the power level of the Ljosalfar. I'd guess the Exalted Svartalfar come from those elves, but the mortal Svartalfar need to come from a different source, IMO (probably mortal followers of the Exalted Svartalfar, but I wouldn't make them Eldar). Have a look at the kind of gifts the Gods were able to get from the Dwarves of Norse myth. Viking-style weapons (Hammers, axes, swords, spears), rings, drinking horns, crowns, a wig made of metal, cauldrons, helmets etc. Make sure they have suffient norse ornamentation with dragon heads, carved runes, little bearded faces, serpents etc. Sure. The gifts of the gods, however, are out of scale for a Basic level campaign, as are the Ring of the Nine Svartalfar and the other artifacts presented in the GAZ. So, I'm thinking up some lower powered, but still flavorful, magic items. GP
JohnBiles 03-12-08, 03:40 AM	Magical figurehead which ensures any boat it is attached to will never founder in a storm or get lost. A figurine of a goat; if you feed it a little of your blood (1 HP damage), it comes to life and grows to full size for 8 hours and will tirelessly pull a cart. Cart not included. A pickaxe which triples one's digging speed. A two foot tall rune-carven pillar. You must sacrifice 3 HP of your own or someone else's blood into the little bowl on top. It then begins to shine in a 60' radius as brightly as a torch for 10 hours or until the next sunrise; while it glows, all bugs and swarms must make a will save (save vs. petrification) or they fly/crawl/whatever over to it and it begins zapping them with electricity (2d6 per round to any insect/swarm caught in the light. They may save to break out of the fascination every time they are hurt.) Feeding it the blood of a specific kind of insect or swarm causes it to do double damage to them. A pair of magnifying lenses and a micro-forge, used for doing very fine detail work with a set of tiny tools. Rune-Ring of Loki: You must sacrifice 2 HP and have something which belongs to your chosen victim, who makes a will save (save vs. spells). If he fails, he believes anything you choose to tell him, though if it clearly contradicts previous knowledge, he gets another save vs. that particular statement. Ever-Full Food Box: Appears to be a rune-carven box with two inches of dirt in the bottom. Add some water, however, and 24 hours later, enough mushrooms to feed 4 people for a day will grow inside it. Mmm, tasty. Horn of Alarm: You must collect 1 HP of blood from up to 6 people and fill the six 'friend' runes on it with the blood. Having done this, if you blow the horn, those six people will know where you are and why you have blown the horn to call for their help. No one else will hear a thing. Dust of Shrieking: Sprinkled onto any plant, moss, fungi, etc, one dose of this dust turns any plant, moss, or fungi into a shrieker, which is to say, if anything moves within 60' of it, it begins howling fit to wake the dead.
Agathokles 03-12-08, 08:56 AM	John, these are some very nice ideas :) Thanks, GP
havard 03-12-08, 11:45 AM	Save for Menander Ithamis, Lord of the Northern Elves of the Red Wood, the only other elf described is Veslo Meridan, and she could be a half-elf. True. the Cumasti/Redwood elves can produce half-elf offspring so that would place Veslo among that tribe. I suppose these would be the same elves from the Duchy of Ten that Menander Ithamis is unable to help according to DA1. DA1 says a blight is consuming the elven woodlands there. Anything more on this from ZGG material? This event seems to have some potential. I'll have to read up on this in DA1, but I'm guessing this refers to the ZGG Westryn elves, who are described as a cursed race. They actually appear to be more numerous than Menander's Cumasti elves, but their lands are indeed in a bad neighbourhood. This could also be linked to the module "Redwood Scar"... Indeed. Technology-oriented elves, either from Davania or the North, could be the Dark Elves, but this is not entirely likely, since the Dark Elves seem to be more magically oriented. One possibility is that Dark Elves were among those Elves who lost their patron Immortals during the GRoF (as I would assume happened to the Belcadiz, for example), and turned to more unusual forms of magic. Or perhaps the loss of technology caused some elves to look for other sources of power...? Perhaps the last Eldar? They would fit well, given the power level of the Ljosalfar. I'd guess the Exalted Svartalfar come from those elves, but the mortal Svartalfar need to come from a different source, IMO (probably mortal followers of the Exalted Svartalfar, but I wouldn't make them Eldar). Interesting. What are you doing with the Eldar in your campaign? IMC, they are not in fact the ancestors of all elves and dragons, but a race of shape shifter able to take the shape of both elves and dragons. I'd probably prefer to keep them out of this deal though. Actually, when I brought in the Ljosalfar into this thread, I assued you were going to take the same route with them as with the Svartalfar, making only their rulers be Exalted level creatures.... Havard
Agathokles 03-12-08, 05:39 PM	I'll have to read up on this in DA1, but I'm guessing this refers to the ZGG Westryn elves, who are described as a cursed race. They actually appear to be more numerous than Menander's Cumasti elves, but their lands are indeed in a bad neighbourhood. This could also be linked to the module "Redwood Scar"... Uhm, yes. Anyway, could one of these event lead to the creation of the Svartalfar? Or perhaps the loss of technology caused some elves to look for other sources of power...? Yes, that's an equally valid reason -- which would make the Svartalfar related to the Blacklore. Interesting. What are you doing with the Eldar in your campaign? IMC, they are not in fact the ancestors of all elves and dragons, but a race of shape shifter able to take the shape of both elves and dragons. I'd probably prefer to keep them out of this deal though. I'm not doing much with them. They probably don't exist in modern Mystara, though some could exist as Exalted on the Outer Planes -- Thelvyn could have chosen to reincarnate as mortal to reach true Immortality. Actually, when I brought in the Ljosalfar into this thread, I assued you were going to take the same route with them as with the Svartalfar, making only their rulers be Exalted level creatures.... Well, my idea would be that the Ljosalfar should be the standard elves, with the Exalted level counterparts being the Eldars. GP
havard 03-13-08, 11:22 AM	Uhm, yes. Anyway, could one of these event lead to the creation of the Svartalfar? Lol, I think I was just getting side-tracked here. Well maybe not (see below). Yes, that's an equally valid reason -- which would make the Svartalfar related to the Blacklore. Okay, I'm slowly warming up to this idea. IMO the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar should have a common origin and this could very well be a tribe of Blackmoor era elves. They could be Blacklore elves, or Westryn elves, but personally I am leanin towards having them be Westryn elves who went in search of some way to break their curse or save their forest. On their quest they encountered Odin and Hel who each promised a new hope for this dying race. This actually makes alot of sense since both Odin and Hel are very active in the Blackmoor region at this time. The group split in two, ending up as servants of these two Immortals on their respective planes. Hel later put Loki in charge of the Svartalfar once he achieved Immortality. I'm not doing much with them. They probably don't exist in modern Mystara, though some could exist as Exalted on the Outer Planes -- Thelvyn could have chosen to reincarnate as mortal to reach true Immortality. ... Well, my idea would be that the Ljosalfar should be the standard elves, with the Exalted level counterparts being the Eldars. Well, this makes the Ljosalfar a little different from how I imagined them. However, Norse mythology has alot of shape changing going on. And there is Fafnir, the Dwarf who turns into a Dragon. So... The elves who followed Odin became known as the Eldar. Some of them were known for their ability to take the shape of Dragons. Those who remained on Mystara often lived among Dragons or elves. This created the (false) belief among elves that the Eldar were the common ancestor of elves and dragons alike, something dragons never bothered to deny. Today only a handful of Eldar remain on Mystara, most preferring to stay in Ljosalfheim. Havard
Agathokles 03-15-08, 05:38 PM	The group split in two, ending up as servants of these two Immortals on their respective planes. Hel later put Loki in charge of the Svartalfar once he achieved Immortality. Yes, that could be a very good story. So... The elves who followed Odin became known as the Eldar. Some of them were known for their ability to take the shape of Dragons. Those who remained on Mystara often lived among Dragons or elves. This created the (false) belief among elves that the Eldar were the common ancestor of elves and dragons alike, something dragons never bothered to deny. Today only a handful of Eldar remain on Mystara, most preferring to stay in Ljosalfheim. That creates an odd issue with the Dragonlord story, since apparently Thelvyn is a dragon in Eldar form. Not that Dragonlord is an especially crucial part of canon, though... GP
NPC Dave 03-15-08, 11:03 PM	Hi all, On another issue, I'll probably have some low level characters (late Basic or early Expert levels) tackle this adventure. Any idea on Modrigswerg items that could be suitable as plunder for the PCs? GP For BX campaigns, magic items from the 3E D&D books work pretty well as they are a step more powerful than normal magic items. I used a shocking battle axe +1 as a Modrigswerg item and for a BX campaign the extra d6 roll to the base damage is a good differentiation.
havard 03-17-08, 07:45 AM	That creates an odd issue with the Dragonlord story, since apparently Thelvyn is a dragon in Eldar form. Not that Dragonlord is an especially crucial part of canon, though... Hmmm...I should probably read up on the Dragonlord Trilogy. I seem to remember Thelvyn's mother being a Gold dragon. Perhaps we could make Thelvyn a dragon who has some Eldar blood and not a true Eldar? Another alternative could be to keep the Eldar out of the Norse Elves thing... Havard
Agathokles 03-17-08, 11:25 AM	Hmmm...I should probably read up on the Dragonlord Trilogy. I seem to remember Thelvyn's mother being a Gold dragon. Perhaps we could make Thelvyn a dragon who has some Eldar blood and not a true Eldar? I don't remember the exact wording, but IIRC it is said that Thelvyn is "a dragon conjured in Eldar form". GP
Khuzd 03-17-08, 02:26 PM	To keep things very easy I would asume "Dark Elves" are high-level sidhe (PC1, the first Creature Crucible), with a Nordic, evil, dark culture. And they have magical doors in barrows and under runestones to go and to come from Outer Nordic Planes. Just an idea!
Agathokles 03-17-08, 06:12 PM	To keep things very easy I would asume "Dark Elves" are high-level sidhe (PC1, the first Creature Crucible), with a Nordic, evil, dark culture. And they have magical doors in barrows and under runestones to go and to come from Outer Nordic Planes. Just an idea! And not a bad one at all, since I might be adapting "The Shadow Rift" (a Ravenloft module featuring a Sidhe domain) to the Shadowdeep in a later part of the campaign. GP
Hausman 03-18-08, 12:03 AM	hello GP in my campaign of rockhome,some characters are exiled Hurwarfs that joined to the mordrigswerg. I have been adapting some of the mystic runes (GAZ7) in a shadier and related version of the entropy sphere. this week I will be posting some ideas here :) :D
Hugin 03-18-08, 09:31 AM	hello GP in my campaign of rockhome,some characters are exiled Hurwarfs that joined to the mordrigswerg. I have been adapting some of the mystic runes (GAZ7) in a shadier and related version of the entropy sphere. this week I will be posting some ideas here :) :D Nice idea. I'd like to see what you come up with. Cool stuff overall in this thread.
OldDawg 03-28-08, 12:17 AM	FWIW, here is the way I interpret the Light and Dark elves, Modrigswerg etc. for GazF. The Lijosalfar are the "original" elves created by Ordana to serve as guardians over the prison plane barriers holding the Carnifex (as seen in M3). This template was used again to produce the mortal elves of Evergrun. They filter into the Northman mythology via the history of the Vanir Immortals Frey and Freyja - (as per the RW treatment of the Vanir as fertility figures) - particularly Frey who later inspired the Vanitar (southern Antalians) to aid the Genalleth (and thus Frey becomes "King of the Elves") The Light Elves are the Korrigans and their followers in Denagoth, while the dark elves were those corrupted in their defense of other elves from the attacks of humans. The corruption is by the temptations of an evil Sidhe (Rumanan). In a sort of jedi-sith like war, the Dark Elves were wiped out (except the apprentice Idris) and 9 were bound by the Elvenstar. The war between the two groups spills over somewhat into Antalian lands during the latter's dark age period. The Modrigswerg somehow release the dark elves from their plane of banishment, before "stealing" their magic and trapping them in the ring. The Dark Elves are not "Exalted" beings in this scenario, merely high-powered mortals. -OldDawg