http://athas.org/releases/advancedbeings/dragons_r2.pdf
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:OMG!"The dragon chooses a metamagic feat and a metapsionic feat..."
Also, since casting a defiler metamorphosis II spell requires the use of Dragon Magic (from the Athasian Dragon PrC), what is the point of saying
"...(and animals in the case of dragons that have taken the Athasian Dragon PrC)..."
in the description of the defiler metamorphosis V and higher spells. Shouldn't all metamorphing defilers have Athasian Dragon PrC levels by this point anyway?
Does the dragon progress as a standard epic prestige class (ie. experience points) or does the casting of the Defiler Metamorphosis spells advance his level in the class?
It advances as a standard epic prestige class (i.e. xp)
Also, since casting a defiler metamorphosis II spell requires the use of Dragon Magic (from the Athasian Dragon PrC), what is the point of saying
"...(and animals in the case of dragons that have taken the Athasian Dragon PrC)..."
in the description of the defiler metamorphosis V and higher spells. Shouldn't all metamorphing defilers have Athasian Dragon PrC levels by this point anyway?
You're correct - there's no point saying that. The decision to require Dragon Magic to cast Defiler Metamorphosis II-X was made at the last minute, and the section you quote was obviously overlooked.
Does the dragon progress as a standard epic prestige class (ie. experience points) or does the casting of the Defiler Metamorphosis spells advance his level in the class?
As a standard class. However, the physical improvements are found within the spells, so the two go hand in hand. It is concievable to actually cast all 10 spells with only a single level in the class, and it is concievable to have 10+ levels in the class, with only casting a single spell in the series.
Thanks for extrapolating, Xlor. I had to rush off to work.
heh, no problem, just wanted to make sure that people had a clear idea as to what we did there.
I realize that 3E is not 2E, but in 2E, advanced beings represented the only path to the highest levels of arcane spellcasting, you had to combine psionics and magic to get beyond what pure spellcasters are capable of. The way things stand now, a pure arcane caster would have an advantage over a similarly leveled dragon in casting more powerful magic (as represented by achievable spell DC) instead of what I think should be the other way around.
Additionally, where's the logic behind the other champions advancing Bory's? There's no evidence that he would have needed to be anything other than he was, certainly not a fully advanced dragon, in order to maintain Rajaat's prison.
Could someone please explain the reason for not including any Epic Spellcasting bonuses as part of the transformation or advancement in the prestige class?
Can you elaborate on this please? I'm not following.
I realize that 3E is not 2E, but in 2E, advanced beings represented the only path to the highest levels of arcane spellcasting, you had to combine psionics and magic to get beyond what pure spellcasters are capable of. The way things stand now, a pure arcane caster would have an advantage over a similarly leveled dragon in casting more powerful magic (as represented by achievable spell DC) instead of what I think should be the other way around.
Oh.... you mean spell save DC's. The difference is that a similar-levelled Dragon would also be able to back up his spells with powers, plus potentially get around spell save DC's of other casters through the path of least resistance. And, unfortunately, we still have to balance Dragons to similar-level characters. As it is 9th level spells, and 6th level powers when they start, this means a 17th level Wizard + 11th level Psion (or level 28 character). Now, at that point, the character is weaker than a level 28 Wizard or a leve 28 Psion would be - however the spells provide massive physical changes, and there is the development of psionic enchantments, the Duplex ability, gaining +1 manifester or +1 spellcaster level each level, and Dragon Magic. The Dragon has such significant improvements in other areas, that we feel it balances out against the slightly slower arcane & psionic development. And the blending of the Arcane and the Psionic actually makes the Dragon more dangerous.
Additionally, where's the logic behind the other champions advancing Bory's? There's no evidence that he would have needed to be anything other than he was, certainly not a fully advanced dragon, in order to maintain Rajaat's prison.
I think Seker can explain that one better than me.
Oh.... you mean spell save DC's. The difference is that a similar-levelled Dragon would also be able to back up his spells with powers, plus potentially get around spell save DC's of other casters through the path of least resistance. And, unfortunately, we still have to balance Dragons to similar-level characters. As it is 9th level spells, and 6th level powers when they start, this means a 17th level Wizard + 11th level Psion (or level 28 character). Now, at that point, the character is weaker than a level 28 Wizard or a leve 28 Psion would be - however the spells provide massive physical changes, and there is the development of psionic enchantments, the Duplex ability, gaining +1 manifester or +1 spellcaster level each level, and Dragon Magic. The Dragon has such significant improvements in other areas, that we feel it balances out against the slightly slower arcane & psionic development. And the blending of the Arcane and the Psionic actually makes the Dragon more dangerous.
I realize that you're limited by concerns of balance, but on a level for level tradeoff, I'd take Mind Mage every time, and I am not so sure I wouldn't rather do cerebremancer, incantatrix, arch mage, or arch psion off the top of my head either.
I realize that you're limited by concerns of balance, but on a level for level tradeoff, I'd take Mind Mage every time, and I am not so sure I wouldn't rather do cerebremancer, incantatrix, arch mage, or arch psion off the top of my head either.
Well, do any of those have access to spells that physically make the caster a menace even without their spells/powers? The Dragon gets 2 claw attacks, a bite attack, two wing slash attacks, a tail sweep and tail slap attack, plus a crush attack. And that isn't even mentioning the breath weapon. The Dragon can do a double-whammy on opponents, with both sucking their life energy to quicken a spell, then turn around and cast an AoE or directed/targetted spell, boosting it with psionic energy and taking the lowest between PR or SR that the target(s) has, inflicting even greater damage. Dragons are obnoxiously powerful, and we have to account for all the different elements. Sure, there is problems with their caster/manifester level against oure casters or manifesters their level. But with their SR/PR the Dragon is rather difficult to hurt with such things, the DR makes physical attacks quite difficult as well. And the physical combat abilities, plus the Dragon Magic defiling effects themselves are nothing if not monsterous. The sheer fact that they are getting physically changed through a spell line -- that is not even remotely dispellable in any way, shape, or form, is also something else to consider.
You cannot simply compare the Athasian Dragon PrC on it's own merits against other PrC's. it is only half of the process. The other half is in the Defiler Metamorphosis spells, which adds some significant advantages. The whole had to be balanced to everything else, and as a result, the PrC on its own merits, will seem slightly weaker than other PrCs (even so, Dragon Magic, Psionic Enchantments, and Duplex ability should not be easily overlooked).
Now - if you want to make a Dragon that takes level of the Mind Mage or other PrC's instead of developing the Athasian Dragon PrC -- all you need is a single level of the Athasian Dragon PrC, and then you just start developing some other direction. Your imagination is the limit.
Oh, and as the Dragon is physically impressive, the Avangion generally is much more physically fragile. So don't be surprised when we tackle that process, that the Avangion will have some significant compensation for the physical weakening process it has -- through a boost in caster/manifester levels and the like.
The one thing I thought stood out to me was the language in the spell description. The part I am talking about is "and causes the caster to lose XX power points." By using the word lose it sounds permanent. I would suggest changing it to expend or something similar just to avoid confusion.
yea, I just noticed that too. I'd say it should probably read "and drains XX power points from the caster." which has less of a permanent feel to it. We don't want it to be something like the caster is manifesting a power, where there is a limit to the number of power points available. This is something that the spell itself is using, almost like an energy-based component, and not really something in the caster's control.
Defiler Metamorphosis X: At this the final stage of the dragon metamorphosis the defiler gains the final ability of being a dragon, the ability to store psionic and/or magical obsidian orbs of any type within themselves and still be able to use them.
the Avangion will have some significant compensation for the physical weakening process it has -- through a boost in caster/manifester levels and the like.
oh can the avagons get the ability to shape change at will to a humanoid form? that would help them avoid detection by the SK's and others that might be out to get them.
its just a dream of mine to not have to be in the weak shape and cast the shape change spell just to go for a walk or travel under the radar.
so, does this mean we'll have avangions and other advanced beings on the way then???
yep they are working on them...
so, does this mean we'll have avangions and other advanced beings on the way then???
Basically. Give us some time however, it took a bit to get the Dragons done. fortunately, Avangions will be slightly easier, as the structure for the process for Avangions will be simililar to the Dragons, mechanics-wise (even if the two do become radically different beings with radically different abilities)
oh can the avagons get the ability to shape change at will to a humanoid form? that would help them avoid detection by the SK's and others that might be out to get them.
its just a dream of mine to not have to be in the weak shape and cast the shape change spell just to go for a walk or travel under the radar.
Well.... one would hope that... umm..... by that level, an Avangion could develop *some* Epic Spell to masque themselves behind. I mean, That's what the Sorcerer-Kings do in order to hide. However, I've strongly considered trying to ensure that Avangions and Dragons, when they get in close proximity of each other, become aware of each other's existence (but without really grasping who or what it is that they are sensing -- more like a general sense of uneasyness that gets stronger as they get closer to each other) -- even through illusions or shapechanges that hide their true identities.
An Avangion, even masquerading as some other kind of entity, walking under a Dragon's nose (like, let's say - through a Dragon-King's city-state) is asking for trouble. The longer one remains there, the more likely that trouble will find him/her -- or at least, that's my take on it. Avangions would only really find one city-state as a "safe harbor" -- and that would be Oronis' one, I'd imagine. However, even then, depending on how that Avangion got ahold of the process to start the metamorphosis, that safety could be in doubt (as I doubt Oronis would freely give away the secrets any more).
My personal take as well is - the Avangion is significantly weaker than an equivalent Dragon until the final Stage spell has been cast. Rather than a gradual linear ramp scaling up in power like a Dragon, I see the Avangion's power being more like an exponential curve, dipping below the Dragon for quite a while, but reaching equal (or maybe even slightly greater) power to a Dragon at the final Stage. The path of the penultimate Preserver is hardly the easy road.
Well, do any of those have access to spells that physically make the caster a menace even without their spells/powers? The Dragon gets 2 claw attacks, a bite attack, two wing slash attacks, a tail sweep and tail slap attack, plus a crush attack. And that isn't even mentioning the breath weapon. The Dragon can do a double-whammy on opponents, with both sucking their life energy to quicken a spell, then turn around and cast an AoE or directed/targetted spell, boosting it with psionic energy and taking the lowest between PR or SR that the target(s) has, inflicting even greater damage. Dragons are obnoxiously powerful, and we have to account for all the different elements. Sure, there is problems with their caster/manifester level against oure casters or manifesters their level. But with their SR/PR the Dragon is rather difficult to hurt with such things, the DR makes physical attacks quite difficult as well. And the physical combat abilities, plus the Dragon Magic defiling effects themselves are nothing if not monsterous. The sheer fact that they are getting physically changed through a spell line -- that is not even remotely dispellable in any way, shape, or form, is also something else to consider.
You cannot simply compare the Athasian Dragon PrC on it's own merits against other PrC's. it is only half of the process. The other half is in the Defiler Metamorphosis spells, which adds some significant advantages. The whole had to be balanced to everything else, and as a result, the PrC on its own merits, will seem slightly weaker than other PrCs (even so, Dragon Magic, Psionic Enchantments, and Duplex ability should not be easily overlooked).
I have to respectfully disagree with some of this. While yes, the physical changes are impressive, they are not enough to make up for what is lost. Compared to it's level (approximately 40 if you assume min / max to ~30 to qualify and 10 levels of dragon) and you wind up with a mediocre spellcaster / psion and a mediocre combat threat to a party of characters in the mid 30's. That's not balanced in my mind, that's handicapped. The base attack is going to be so small from 20 levels of caster or manifester, unless psychic warrior, that the added strength isn't enough to make up for it, especially when they lose attack from the size increases. The constitution bonuses are also great, but they too don't make up for 30 levels of d4 hp and likely a very low starting constitution anyway. The natural armor bonuses is impressive, but not so much as to make them difficult to hit for a pure melee class of the same level.
Certainly the dragon is a terrible foe against the general population, be it his or her own city state or an invading army. Having said that, balance is not in how many level 3 commoners you can kill without getting touched, it's in how well you match up against other characters your level, a group of characters a handful of levels below you, or monsters in the same range.
Add to this the size increases and the ability to cast and manifest spells and powers at the same time, while draining the life energy from your enemies that cannot be reduced by DR or energy immunities.
The Dragon metamorphosis only has 10 stages, but the PrC allows for progression up to 20th level- I would say epic but at this stage they already are. If you follow the duplex progression, at 18th level within this PrC you could cast and manifest a 10th level spell and power at the same time and still use a quickened spell or power.
Now I do not know if everything I have written here is true or not, but it is logical. If I am wrong about anything I have said, I would appreciated being corrected (politely).
On another note that is kinda related (I do not want to derail this thread so please only reply to this comment if you are in the Epic Bureau). Has there been any development on the SK and Champion PrC or template, or is the idea being scrapped?
...The constitution bonuses are also great, but they too don't make up for 30 levels of d4 hp and likely a very low starting constitution anyway...
I stated this in the last Dragon thread, but I still feel that the AB should have all past HD increase to d12 like a true dragon type.
I stated this in the last Dragon thread, but I still feel that the AB should have all past HD increase to d12 like a true dragon type.
I don't know if I agree on that one or not. I just finished determining the basic stats for a reborn Kalid-Ma (she's* going to feature in my campaign), and her hp came out to 447. Admitedly, that's the max (per the Champion template I'm using), but still, that's a whole buttload of hit points even with most of the levels giving a d4 hit dice.
* Personal preferance, no beating the kank please
I don't know if I agree on that one or not. I just finished determining the basic stats for a reborn Kalid-Ma (she's* going to feature in my campaign), and her hp came out to 447. Admitedly, that's the max (per the Champion template I'm using), but still, that's a whole buttload of hit points even with most of the levels giving a d4 hit dice.
* Personal preferance, no beating the kank please
I base my comparison on a great wyrm red dragon. They have 660 hp base. If you threw an equivalent number of class levels they would far exceed the HP of an AB dragon. Even, a lich of equivalent level would have around same HP (give or take 20 hp).
Maybe this is a bad comparison (which I'm sure will be pointed out), but I feel that the AB dragon should be physically the equal of a great wyrm.
I think that one thing that Barmoz is overlooking is the fact that the Dragon now has natural attacks- so all primary attacks are at the high BAB and secondary at -5. This also allows, I think, for the dragon to take such feats as improved natural weapon, multi-attack (claws, bite, wings, tail slap), and improved multi-attack, along with a host of feats that improve the breath weapon from the Draconicom.
Add to this the size increases and the ability to cast and manifest spells and powers at the same time, while draining the life energy from your enemies that cannot be reduced by DR or energy immunities.
You make a valid point, but my response would be that even the highest of the BAB is relatively low for a 40 HD monster. You can become more dangerous with the feats you describe, but... they're supposed to be (IMHO) masters of the mystic arts, both arcane and psionic first and foremost, not monsters so their feat selection should be biased that direction, especially with the PRC abilities having such an effect with the combination of meta feats.
I don't know if I agree on that one or not. I just finished determining the basic stats for a reborn Kalid-Ma (she's* going to feature in my campaign), and her hp came out to 447. Admitedly, that's the max (per the Champion template I'm using), but still, that's a whole buttload of hit points even with most of the levels giving a d4 hit dice.
* Personal preferance, no beating the kank please
I guess I really don't see 447 as being a buttload of hp, not at level 40 (or more depending on your build). A party of mid 30's should have no problem dealing out well more damage than that in a small number of rounds, even with the DR and high PR / SR.
When you have a defiler progress in the metamorphosis, how does that translate in to ECL or levels or whatever. My purpose for asking this is to get a better guage on AB's levels. So say you have a Defiler 10/Psion 10/Cerebmancer 10/Dragon (PrC) 5 on stage 3 of the defiler metamorphosis. What would be the character level- 35th, 38th, or something different?
And how does the progressively higher levels of the metamorphosis effect the ECL of the character. Using the same info from above but making the dragon on the 10th stage- how would this effect the level of the character.
I know this post is somewhat erratic, but I think that this important point may have been overlooked in the write up of the dragon.
Question?
When you have a defiler progress in the metamorphosis, how does that translate in to ECL or levels or whatever. My purpose for asking this is to get a better guage on AB's levels. So say you have a Defiler 10/Psion 10/Cerebmancer 10/Dragon (PrC) 5 on stage 3 of the defiler metamorphosis. What would be the character level- 35th, 38th, or something different?
And how does the progressively higher levels of the metamorphosis effect the ECL of the character. Using the same info from above but making the dragon on the 10th stage- how would this effect the level of the character.
I know this post is somewhat erratic, but I think that this important point may have been overlooked in the write up of the dragon.
Not that I have any answers, but to make sure I understood your question, are you asking if the metamorphisis spells carry with them a level adjustment?
Not that I have any answers, but to make sure I understood your question, are you asking if the metamorphisis spells carry with them a level adjustment?
He's asking if the creature's ECL changes after each casting of the metamorphisis spell.
Additionally, where's the logic behind the other champions advancing Bory's? There's no evidence that he would have needed to be anything other than he was, certainly not a fully advanced dragon, in order to maintain Rajaat's prison.
Check out the final ability of the defiler metamorphosis X spell..... the dragon at this point can store huge numbers of magical obsidian orbs in its belly and still be able to use them...... thus granting it the ability to use as many of them as it wants in a given round, as well as being able to store vast amounts of energy to replace exp burn on epic spells..... this allows much higher level original DC epic spells to be cast, at less cost and DC to the caster. This is why Borys had to complete the change..... the SK's could not store the orbs inside to allow for the use of multiple ones without carrying them untill this point. So now he stores energy inside him, as per the fluff from the novels and the original settings, without having to carry the orbs.
I hope that answers your question too Pennarin
Question?
When you have a defiler progress in the metamorphosis, how does that translate in to ECL or levels or whatever. My purpose for asking this is to get a better guage on AB's levels. So say you have a Defiler 10/Psion 10/Cerebmancer 10/Dragon (PrC) 5 on stage 3 of the defiler metamorphosis. What would be the character level- 35th, 38th, or something different?
And how does the progressively higher levels of the metamorphosis effect the ECL of the character. Using the same info from above but making the dragon on the 10th stage- how would this effect the level of the character.
I know this post is somewhat erratic, but I think that this important point may have been overlooked in the write up of the dragon.
There is not ECL gain from the epic spells, the costs of them spells themselves replace an ECL. Remember if creating high level characters you are given an exp total to create the character, therefor if someone wanted to make a Dragon they would have to spend the exp cost of each spell..... not animal life cost (unless their DM was way beyond nice on this.) as that is how it is listed in the rules.
your character in your example would be a 35th level character but would have to spend 15,000 exp in addition to the exp for levels. Not to mention have a structure worth no less than 5,000,000 Cp, have spent 3 years in just preparation of the spells, not to mention the cost in exp and Cp to research all 3 spells....... so it is pretty darned expensive.
sorry I have not responded sooner
He's asking if the creature's ECL changes after each casting of the metamorphisis spell.
I get all turned around sometimes which is why I was trying to make sure I understood, but wouldn't any changes to ECL be as a result of a level adjustment resulting from the change? Meaning, 30 character levels, a LA of 3, yields an ECL of 33?
I get all turned around sometimes which is why I was trying to make sure I understood, but wouldn't any changes to ECL be as a result of a level adjustment resulting from the change? Meaning, 30 character levels, a LA of 3, yields an ECL of 33?
There is no level adjustment from the spells at all. The sheer costs of the spells take care of the need for a level adjustment on them. So a stage 3 dragon with 30 total character levels (including levels in the athasian dragon PrC) is a ECL 30 character..... just like a character with just 30 levels of normal character classes....
the cost of the spells have to be paid if you are creating an epic level character as normal, same as if you wanted to start with any other epic level spells with exp burn in play.
There is no level adjustment from the spells at all. The sheer costs of the spells take care of the need for a level adjustment on them. So a stage 3 dragon with 30 total character levels (including levels in the athasian dragon PrC) is a ECL 30 character..... just like a character with just 30 levels of normal character classes....
the cost of the spells have to be paid if you are creating an epic level character as normal, same as if you wanted to start with any other epic level spells with exp burn in play.
Just curious. Where is the basis of that it wouldn't increase the character's ECL come from? Did you base this off of something in ELHB?
What exactly do these two gains imply?
Defiler Metamorphosis X: At this the final stage of the dragon metamorphosis the defiler gains the final ability of being a dragon, the ability to store psionic and/or magical obsidian orbs of any type within themselves and still be able to use them.
How many XP is in 1 HD?
Just curious. Where is the basis of that it wouldn't increase the character's ECL come from? Did you base this off of something in ELHB?
based off the fact that epic level spells can make permanent changes to characters without increasing ECL.... in the epic spellcasting section. These are the same as normal epic level spells only much more expensive than normal epic spells as they are nondispellable. epic spellcasting is considered to be part of the classes that can take it so the effects of the spells are not considered to cause an ECL adjustment.
QUOTE=Pennarin]Naybe Seker and Xlorep did not see my question, so I'm reposting.
What exactly do these two gains imply?
Actually I did answer it in my first post, though I may not have been clear. The dragon is able to store orbs of energy storing in their belly. Which allows them to use as many of them as they want at one time, without having to carry them around with them in pouches etc....
this means they cannot be stolen, though they can be destroyed with appropriate magic.... though the body of the dragon would help protect them. This also means the dragon can carry the larger orbs around with him to store more and more energy for the epic spells they cast..... remember you can only store 200HD/inch of an orb...... so you need 5 inches of orbs to store even 1,000HD (equivelent of 5,000 exp for exp burn)
Overall it is a good way of explaining how, as it was described in the fluff and the original rules, the dragon was able to store energy. And it was mentioned that the dragon had the orbs in his stomach and was able to use the energy in them, even though you normally cannot use a magical item that is already inside you...... otherwise normal dragons and other non humanoid monsters in standard D&D would be eating all the powerful armor and rings they get to use them that way, if they do nt have the apendages to use them otherwise.
Here is another question I did not see the answer for in the dragon doc. in regard to the energy storing ability.
How many XP is in 1 HD?
actually the ratio is at the end of the document under the orbs of energy storing (which is because it is the orbs that let you use it as exp.... the class ability lets you just store it to be honest.) and the ration is 5ex per HD...... so 1,000 HD (the cost in animal life of each of the first 3 spells in 2ed) would provide 5,000 exp for exp burn. (the cost in burn of each of the first 3 spells in this version.)
I think that one thing that Barmoz is overlooking is the fact that the Dragon now has natural attacks- so all primary attacks are at the high BAB and secondary at -5. This also allows, I think, for the dragon to take such feats as improved natural weapon, multi-attack (claws, bite, wings, tail slap), and improved multi-attack, along with a host of feats that improve the breath weapon from the Draconicom.
Add to this the size increases and the ability to cast and manifest spells and powers at the same time, while draining the life energy from your enemies that cannot be reduced by DR or energy immunities.
The Dragon metamorphosis only has 10 stages, but the PrC allows for progression up to 20th level- I would say epic but at this stage they already are. If you follow the duplex progression, at 18th level within this PrC you could cast and manifest a 10th level spell and power at the same time and still use a quickened spell or power.
Now I do not know if everything I have written here is true or not, but it is logical. If I am wrong about anything I have said, I would appreciated being corrected (politely).
Actualy, the PrC, being an Epic PrC, allows for infinite level progression. The Duplex ability more or less becomes pointless for those who don't expand and increase the maximum level of spells/powers they can cast/manifest (and it realy does nothing for Epic spells & powers).
Barmoz, I think, is missing the differences between an Epic development over a "normal" one. the Dragons - even if they end up with +10 BAB from their wizard + Psion levels, the Epic levels treat all classes the same. Further, the increases to size and to Strength directly quickly compensate for the lack of starting BAB - especially as natural attacks do NOT follow the same number of attacks per round that weapon attacks do (a creature with a single natural attack, with 20 BAB, does NOT have the ability to make an attack at +20, another at +15, another at +10, and another at +5 -- they only get to make the natural attack at +20).
Now, let us say that you have a 17 Defiler/11 Psion (casts 9th-level spells & manifests 6th level powers) that develops as a Dragon. At level 28, first of all, there would be +10 BAB, and +4 Epic Bonus. If that Wizard/Psion had +10 Str, there would be nothing beyond the +14 attack bonus (or rather, with normal weapons, +14/+9). While we're at it, let's say there is +12 Con, and an average # of hit points for level 28, so that would be 84 HP. Also, for the sake of argument, I will use a Human in this example.
the individual casts the Defiler Metamorphosis I spell. The caster's type changes to Dragon (Augmented Human). the character has no Racial Hit Dice, so none of his Hit Dice change to d12's automatically, the Base attack Bonus change, Saves, etc, do not adjust to reflect the Dragon type, as that only would apply to Racial or Monster Hit Dice. Gains darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. The character becomes totally immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Taking a level of the Athasian Dragon PrC, the character gains Dragon Magic, energy storing, and Duplex I. He also gains (average value) of +7 HP, to a new total of 93 HP.
The character then decides to develop and cast Defiler Metamorphosis II. He gains +2 Str and +2 Con. His Attack bonus now is +15/+10, and his hit points have increased to +122 from this.
The character pushes further, and decides to cast Defiler Metamorphosis III. he gains +1 Str, +1 Con, and +3 Natural Armor.
After that, the character decides to develop a level of the Athasian Dragon PrC. He chooses to gain a Manifester Level, so now is treated as a 17th level arcane spellcaster, and a 12th level Psionic Manifester. He also gains another +8 HP, for a new total of +130 HP. His Epic Attack bonus has increased by +1, so his new attack bonus is +16/+11. He also picks the "path of least resistance" Psionic Enchantment.
Wanting to further advance his Psionics, the Dragon goes ahead and takes 2 more levels of the PrC, gaining another +1 Epic Attack Bonus (Attack bonus now is +17/+12), +16 HP for a new total of +146 HP, Duplex II, and let's say he wants Metamixture with Extend Spell + Extend Power.
Then the Dragon wants more physical advantages - develops and casts the Defiler Metamorphosis IV spell. this gives him a DR of 15/magic, plus he now has 2 claw attacks, which are primary natural attacks (meaning both are given his highest attack bonus of +17). So, the Dragon either can use a regular weapon at +17/+12, or use 2 claws, both at +17 each.
The Dragon develops and casts the Defiler Metamorphosis V spell, and suddenly grows from Medium to Large, gaining +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con +2 Nat. Armor, and -1 to AC/Attacks; plus an additional +6 Natural Armor. so now, the character has a -2 to AC (Dex mod -1, -1 for Size), but an additional +9 natural armor, on top of the +3 from before -- a net total of +11 to AC. The Str makes the Dragon's attack bonus jump to +21/+16 with normal weapons. However, there now is bite & tail attacks -- bite generaly is the primary attack in a Dragon's natural attacks, so with that, there is +21 bite, +16 claw, +16 claw, +16 tail. Further, an additional +4 Con raises the Dragon's HP to +208.
Taking another 3 levels of the PrC, the Dragon gains +2 to his Epic Attack Bonus (+23 bite/+18 claw/+18 claw/+18 tail), an additional +30 HP raises the HP total to +238. He gets Duplex III and IV, plus takes Metamixture: Empower Spell/Empower Power.
Continuing with the spells, the Dragon casts Defiler Metamorphosis VI, gaining +2 Str, +2 Con, frightful presence and +3 more natural armor. The Str makes the Dragon's attacks now be +24 bite/+19 claw/+19 claw/+19 tail. the +2 Con raises the Dragon's HP to +273. The Dragon now has a net increase of +14 to AC from this process.
At the next stage, Defiler Metamorphosis VII, the Dragon gains another size increase, which means +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +3 Nat. Armor, -1 AC/Attack (from large -> huge). Plus, the Dragon gains another +3 Nat. Armor, and a breath weapon (35 total HD results in 17d12, with 1/2 of the damage being fire; 1/2 being physical; 33 DC [Con is now 23] ) The Dragon's attacks get boosted to +26 bite/+21 claw/+21 claw/+21 tail. The Dragon's net bonus to AC is +19. the Dragon also now has +343 HP.
And, at the Defiler Metamorphosis VIII, the Dragon gains 3 more Natural Armor (net total of +21 to AC from this process). The dragon can now burrow through the ground at a movement speed (huge dragons burrow at 20'). And now has SR/PR of +46.
At Defiler Metamorphosis IX, the Dragon grows yet another size category (huge -> gargantuan) which means +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 natural armor, -2 AC/Attack. This adjusts the attack bonuses to +28 bite/+23 claw/+23 claw/+23 tail. With the aditional +3 Natural Armor for this stage, the net total increase for AC now is +24. The Dragon now can fly (200', clumsy). The Dragon's HP icreases to 413.
and finally, at Defiler Metamorphosis X, the Dragon's metamorphosis completes. +3 more Natural Armor (net total of +27 to AC), DR upgrades to 15/epic and metal.
So, in this example, at level 35 - a Dragon could concievably have:
+28 bite/+23 claw/+23 claw/+23 tail attacks.
+27 increase to AC
15/epic and metal DR
413 HP
Burrow 20'
Fly 200' (clumsy)
Breath Weapon: 17d12, DC od 33; 1/2 fire & 1/2 physical damage.
Now, I forget why we nixed the tail sweep, crush, and wing slash attacks from the mix, and would have to do some digging -- it might be because with those, Dragons were simply TOO powerful.
Oh, and let's not forget that this dragon would have:
SR/PR 46
and if every level fo the PrC (after the 1st) he took a manifester level then:
17th level Arcane spellcaster (defiler)
17th level Psionic manifester (psion)
there is the psionic enchantments picked up, and the Duplex ability as well. Effectively, the dragon is a powerhouse. If magic doesn't work, try psionics. If that doesn't work, try BOTH (psionic enchantments). Try using Dragon Magic to decimate opponents from simply casting their spells (without even accounting for the spell effects themselves). If that doesn't work, there's the breath weapon, and multiple natural attacks. The Dragon is a very flexible, and efficient combatant.
And -- this isn't accounting for Defiler/Wilder or Defiler/Psychic Warrior combinations. This isn't accounting for what happens when someone attempts to do this with the Cerebrmancer PrC. Or if the character has some levels in an extraneous class or two. What happens when the character has more levels in the PrC than he/she has stages of the spell series completed. I didn't even take into account what the attribute gains every 4 levels would do to affect this class in my write up, or any other feats. And then there is the different results that can happen by choosing a different starting Race. Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen, for instance, both have racial Hit Dice to account for. Half-Giants start 1 size category larger and will end up being Colossal in size. Halflings start 1 size category smaller, end end up Huge in size -- and so on.
Honestly, that isn't something to causally scoff at.
On another note that is kinda related (I do not want to derail this thread so please only reply to this comment if you are in the Epic Bureau). Has there been any development on the SK and Champion PrC or template, or is the idea being scrapped?
Haven't gotten anywhere with that yet. There are a number of the Bureau's members who feel that there should be no special advantage to the Champions of Rajaat, and all it is is a title, nothing more. I disagree with that sentiment, but I seem to be fighting an uphill battle with this.
these are personal opinions only though.
So, in this example, at level 35 - a Dragon could concievably have:
+28 bite/+23 claw/+23 claw/+23 tail attacks.
+27 increase to AC
15/epic and metal DR
413 HP
Burrow 20'
Fly 200' (clumsy)
Breath Weapon: 17d12, DC od 33; 1/2 fire & 1/2 physical damage.
Honestly, that isn't something to causally scoff at.
I actually don't feel like I am missing anything. I understand epic progression, and it takes until level 50 or so before the loss of 1-20 BAB due to a non-melee class is not a pretty significant handicap.
I did the same exercise last night, and came up with the same results, (obviously lol) but I guess I just didn't see it as *that* impressive. The DR is nice for the level, and the melee + breath weapon + spell / power damage is not negligible, but... I look at it and think that a reasonably well equipped, well built, and most importantly well played group of 4 level 25-30 characters with the right class mix would have no problem destroying it, instead of having it be a real challenge where they might lose half the time or even more.
I completely admit that I might be biased by the power level of the games I tend to play in or run, but I just had a different mental image. In my mind there would be more emphasis on the arcane and less on the physical, obviously that's where you're going to take the avangion, but I imagine them as two sides of the same coin, the physical manifestations are more side effects of the body changing to handle the most powerful of magical forces, not the motivation for the transformation itself. The actual shape they take, dragon versus avangion is a function of how the caster accesses those forces.
I always pictured the process as:
"I took my arcane studies as far as humanly possible, and by becoming more than human I am a master of forces untouchable by other beings"
What I feel we're getting is:
"I was the intelligent weakling in a robe with a staff, now I'm a big scary monster Rawr!"
I hope I'm not sounding like a complainer, because I think the work is excellent, I have no problems with quality or the attention to detail or anything like that, I just have a disagreement with the direction that you took. I have nothing but respect for those that put this together and the contribution of time and effort that it must have required. I am sure I will decide to adopt parts of it and modify parts of it for my game, I just feel that perhaps I might have pertinent feedback or a valid viewpoint.
I actually don't feel like I am missing anything. I understand epic progression, and it takes until level 50 or so before the loss of 1-20 BAB due to a non-melee class is not a pretty significant handicap.
I did the same exercise last night, and came up with the same results, (obviously lol) but I guess I just didn't see it as *that* impressive. The DR is nice for the level, and the melee + breath weapon + spell / power damage is not negligible, but... I look at it and think that a reasonably well equipped, well built, and most importantly well played group of 4 level 25-30 characters with the right class mix would have no problem destroying it, instead of having it be a real challenge where they might lose half the time or even more.
Well, in many ways, that is exactly why this is a playtest time for the Dragon write-up. Input -- any input -- from DM's and players that have tested this system out, and can provide pros or cons about the system, can help us refine it to something that is more suitable.
Personally, I would have preferred +1 manifester and +1 spellcaster level each level of the PrC, but I was out-voted on that. Personally, I had several other options for the psionic enchantments, including ways to use power points to boost an arcane spell above the normal level limits of that spell (making Psionics augment Magic in this sense), but that was dropped for fear of being overly complex. And there were things that Seker had brought up and were equally shot down when reviewed. There is very possibly a good chance that we may have made the overall effect weaker than intended -- but that is something which playtesting will provide, as theoretical arguing will never truly compare to what is tried and tested "in the field".
So, your feedback is most welcome. Evidence as to the shortcomings of the Dragons, as well as examples of how it may be overpowered, are both good for us. It's far beter to get the community feedback on these issues, than just to have the Bureau dictate what happens despite the community's input.
What I feel we're getting is:
"I was the intelligent weakling in a robe with a staff, now I'm a big scary monster Rawr!"
I think that if you have access to it, I am just assuming you do not, I would tell you to look in the Dragon Kings book. The original progression of the dragons did focus on becoming a "big scary monster", and one that is physically powerful, immortal, and with the ability to use both psionic and magic beyond the scope of most "masters" of either craft.
I believe that the underpaid Epic Bureau did a very loyal translation of the old material to fit within the bounds of the 3.5 material. I am not saying that you are wrong, but like I said, if you do not have it, then I would read the Dragon Kings. :D
On the same note, I too think that there are some things the could be tweeked a little, but like the work.
I did the same exercise last night, and came up with the same results, (obviously lol) but I guess I just didn't see it as *that* impressive. The DR is nice for the level, and the melee + breath weapon + spell / power damage is not negligible, but... I look at it and think that a reasonably well equipped, well built, and most importantly well played group of 4 level 25-30 characters with the right class mix would have no problem destroying it, instead of having it be a real challenge where they might lose half the time or even more.
That would really depend on how both sides were played to be honest, that argument could be made for any class. I am sorry but a well played group of 4 levels 25-30 can take any level 35 unless the DM is extremely devious.....
oh and while I hate to point holes in someones example but xlor went straight classes to the dragon PrC.... cerebramancer gives a much higher manifester and caster level by that point..... not to mention other arcane and psionic PrC's that could boost them further.... that is a base line character vs. an optimized party by your description of the team..... hardly a level playing field for any class.
One of the things athas.org is required to do on the updates is to keep things balanced by 3.5 rules, so we cannot overpower and break a PrC like what would be required to take any party of four of that level every time.
I completely admit that I might be biased by the power level of the games I tend to play in or run, but I just had a different mental image. In my mind there would be more emphasis on the arcane and less on the physical, obviously that's where you're going to take the avangion, but I imagine them as two sides of the same coin, the physical manifestations are more side effects of the body changing to handle the most powerful of magical forces, not the motivation for the transformation itself. The actual shape they take, dragon versus avangion is a function of how the caster accesses those forces.
I always pictured the process as:
"I took my arcane studies as far as humanly possible, and by becoming more than human I am a master of forces untouchable by other beings"
What I feel we're getting is:
"I was the intelligent weakling in a robe with a staff, now I'm a big scary monster Rawr!"
If I were designing the game world from scratch I might go the way you are recommending, but at athas.org it is our privilige to update the rules to 3.5 and also expand on the world using 3.5 rules..... we are not allowed to rewrite teh entire concept.
our current incarnation of the Dragon PrC and spells is based as closely as we can to 2ed and keeping balance..... the few things we have added were updates from the original boxed set (Duplex ability is right from the dragon of tyr in the orginal box set), or finding ways to explain the rules from 2ed in 3.5 format.
example in 2ed you got multiple HD for 1 level in the advanced beings.... add to that you spent huge amounts of exp and had to cast a spell.... to do that as is would break too many of the patterns from 3.5, so we broke it down to spells for the physical with a quite significant advantage for casting the last spell, (think about the energy storing potential and the idea of having high exp burn spells that you dont have to spend exp on and you will see why this is so powerful) and a PrC that controlls the spellcasting and special abilities.
In 2ed the dragons were becoming big scary monsters first and formost by advancing.... as you could cast any 10th level spell by getting to level 21 and never advancing further, so the magic was not their main thing and they got less psionics than either psionicist or avangions as they leveled as well...... the dragons really were about the power of the form more than anything....
I hope I'm not sounding like a complainer, because I think the work is excellent, I have no problems with quality or the attention to detail or anything like that, I just have a disagreement with the direction that you took. I have nothing but respect for those that put this together and the contribution of time and effort that it must have required. I am sure I will decide to adopt parts of it and modify parts of it for my game, I just feel that perhaps I might have pertinent feedback or a valid viewpoint.
And we appreciate any feedback we can get. the issue is on this however, that we are updating the rules not totally rewriting the concept. It is what Athas.org is being allowed to do. Note once we have all the epic rules out you will also have the rules on the metamorphosis seed which will help alot on if you are wanting to rebuild the dragons in another direction for your home games.
That is one of the main things I wanted to incorperate into it.... a flexibility for the DM's if they want it, but at the same time, minimizing the abuse factors of it.
please keep up the feedback we are happy to go over ideas. This incarnation was significantly improved by the feedback on the first version we posted.
In 2ed the dragons were becoming big scary monsters first and formost by advancing.... as you could cast any 10th level spell by getting to level 21 and never advancing further, so the magic was not their main thing and they got less psionics than either psionicist or avangions as they leveled as well...... the dragons really were about the power of the form more than anything....
While I never played a dragon, I actually played a lot of 2E dark sun, including an avangion, and I never actually felt that way. I felt like the ability to cast more 10th level spells was more than enough motivation to advance the process.
I love the book Dragon Kings, it was one of my favorite 2E publications, but just look at how they advertised it on the back cover, in bold capital letters, "EXPLORE THE 10TH LEVEL OF MAGIC", then in smaller print as the last sentence, it says "defilers can actually transform into dragons themselves"
As far as the physical changes, while the dragon changes were significant, the avangion also got a HUGE increase in HD, as well as immunity to anything less than +5 weapons. In 2E Dark Sun an avangion was probably more durable in physical combat just due to its immunities and magic resistance than a dragon, depending on how liberal the handing out of +5 weapons was in your particular campaign.
And as for the dragon getting less than the psionicist or avangion, that's the price they paid for a more rapid advancement in 2E. The higher xp cost to level as a preserver and then avangion represented the sacrifice of taking the high road. The benefit to being a dragon wasn't "being a dragon" it was being able to get to level 30 with a significantly lower xp cost.
If I were designing the game world from scratch I might go the way you are recommending, but at athas.org it is our privilige to update the rules to 3.5 and also expand on the world using 3.5 rules..... we are not allowed to rewrite teh entire concept.
I don't see that I'm recommending something that wasn't already present, just a different interpretation of what the 2E rules were. I may have a different view on what 2E Dark Sun was.
While I never played a dragon, I actually played a lot of 2E dark sun, including an avangion, and I never actually felt that way. I felt like the ability to cast more 10th level spells was more than enough motivation to advance the process.
The problem in 3.5e with this, however, is the mechanic that replaced 10th level spells, is Epic Spellcasting. And any 21+ level spellcaster can accomplish that. So, we have been attempting -- while keeping much of the feel of the 2e concept -- to expand and provide other benefits that don't break the system, and don't restrict spellcasters unnecessarily from using Epic Spellcasting without being a Dragon or Avangion (which would violate 3.5e mechanics).
I love the book Dragon Kings, it was one of my favorite 2E publications, but just look at how they advertised it on the back cover, in bold capital letters, "EXPLORE THE 10TH LEVEL OF MAGIC", then in smaller print as the last sentence, it says "defilers can actually transform into dragons themselves"
As far as the physical changes, while the dragon changes were significant, the avangion also got a HUGE increase in HD, as well as immunity to anything less than +5 weapons. In 2E Dark Sun an avangion was probably more durable in physical combat just due to its immunities and magic resistance than a dragon, depending on how liberal the handing out of +5 weapons was in your particular campaign.
In 3.5e, there is no immunity vs all weapons less than a vertian bonus. There is Damage Reductions - and they only get to +15, +20 and maybe +25. As such, that mechanic seems a bit weaker than people might like - but it is what we have to work with.
And as for the dragon getting less than the psionicist or avangion, that's the price they paid for a more rapid advancement in 2E. The higher xp cost to level as a preserver and then avangion represented the sacrifice of taking the high road. The benefit to being a dragon wasn't "being a dragon" it was being able to get to level 30 with a significantly lower xp cost.
Well - once again we can't rewrite the level advancement rules. One thing that will most likely be seen is a higher XP cost in preparing and casting the Avangion spell line.
I don't see that I'm recommending something that wasn't already present, just a different interpretation of what the 2E rules were. I may have a different view on what 2E Dark Sun was.
Well, we have to interpret the 2e rules through the lenses of 3.5e. That is how Athas.org has to operate here. There were glaring broken elements of the 2e mechanics, significant imbalances that would actually cause even more problems in 3.5e due to how the mechanics of the system has changed. For instance -- dual classing & multiclassing in 2e is radically different than in 3/3.5e -- and as such, we had to rely on different ways to get Dragons developed than a strict enforcement of 20 Wizard/20 Psion (or 20 arcane spellcaster/20 manifester). There are many other mechanics that had to be revised, redrafted, and adjusted to fit the 3.5e framing. In a sense, Athas.org has an even more stringent requirement to match D&D 3.5e than Mongoose Publishing, or Sword & Sorcery Studios. Those companioes are shooting only for d20 System compatability. Athas.org is mandated to make thins compliant with 3.5e D&D - which means fitting things within EL, CR, etc. requirements and following several balancing guidelines not necessarily present in other products. So -- in that light, things aren't going to work out the way you think they would. The Dragons are being built for PC's to be able to use, not just as a creature PC's are going to encounter (which those kinds of situations warrent a 4-person party comparison, while the former warrents comparing a similar-designed PC of the same level being compared & contrasted).
Seriously, we've put a lot of effort into these rules, but advanced beings being the second most debated issue of Dark Sun, we knew we wouldn't be able to please everyone 100%.
While I never played a dragon, I actually played a lot of 2E dark sun, including an avangion, and I never actually felt that way. I felt like the ability to cast more 10th level spells was more than enough motivation to advance the process.
I love the book Dragon Kings, it was one of my favorite 2E publications, but just look at how they advertised it on the back cover, in bold capital letters, "EXPLORE THE 10TH LEVEL OF MAGIC", then in smaller print as the last sentence, it says "defilers can actually transform into dragons themselves"
Yes but the first line was specifying that explore the 10th level of magic for not just defilers...... (as all caster classes save templar get 10th level spells.) and when it says defilers changed into dragons they used a ! at the end to show how massive a change that was. And it was in the lower middle part of the paragraph not at the end..... and there is quite a bit in that teaser paragraph about changing forms.
As far as the physical changes, while the dragon changes were significant, the avangion also got a HUGE increase in HD, as well as immunity to anything less than +5 weapons. In 2E Dark Sun an avangion was probably more durable in physical combat just due to its immunities and magic resistance than a dragon, depending on how liberal the handing out of +5 weapons was in your particular campaign.
And as for the dragon getting less than the psionicist or avangion, that's the price they paid for a more rapid advancement in 2E. The higher xp cost to level as a preserver and then avangion represented the sacrifice of taking the high road. The benefit to being a dragon wasn't "being a dragon" it was being able to get to level 30 with a significantly lower xp cost.
actually you have this backwards..... Avangions had much lower exp cost to level than dragons in 2ed.... at the lower levels advancing as a preserver was more expensive but at the higher levels the dragon was more costly. They were much more defensively based than a dragon though, and that is part of what we are working on when we do them. And even with a lower exp cost they advanced as a full psionicist unlike the dragon that only got half that in the advanced being levels.
I don't see that I'm recommending something that wasn't already present, just a different interpretation of what the 2E rules were. I may have a different view on what 2E Dark Sun was.
Again, we are directly translating stuff from 2ed..... that is where the dragon being as focussed on the physical came from. Dragons in my own games, which will be using the d20 modern rules I am building for darksun, are likely to be significantly different than the standard ones.... a heck of alot more powerful for instance..... but then again, I am going to be making the transformation into dragons a heck of alot harder than even what I put in the standard spells..... but that is for my personal interpitation. And it will be using the mutation/metamorphosis rules I have been building for part of the creation proccess.......
As written now, they follow the power progression of the rules as presented in dragon kings updated and made viable for 3.5 D&D. And if you are saying you want them to be more powerful spell casting wise.... I would really reccomend rereading the PrC on the energy storing ability (and in conjunction the effects of the 10th spell on it) as it greatly increases a epic spellcasters power.
After all you can now design all the spells you want with exp burn....as long as you prepare and drain a bunch of animal life before hand you dont have to pay with your exp..... and that can significantly lower a spells DC..... by up to 100 points on each spell... which means the spells are cheaper to make, cast, and are quicker... that is a significant advantage.
Thoughts?
Has there been any thoughts on tweaking the Path of least resistance ability in some way? Even though its a cool concept, it seems that its hardly worth it considering the ability only effects 10 or so powers or spells. Granted, the dragon could spend his time researching psionic versions of spells and visa versa, but thats borderline power gaming cheese IMO.
Thoughts?
I have to agre with Sysane on this- the Path of Least Resistance is the weak-link of the powers, though at this time I have no better alternatitive to offer. I will do some homework and offer up something this weekend (I have a DS game tonight).
-Thought-
How about something like the Archmages Mastery of Counterspelling, but allow the Dragon to use any spell of the correct level and pay a power point cost to negate spells being cast. Like someone is casting Horrid Wilting (lvl 8), and the Dragon would be able to counterspell it by sacrificing a memorized 8th level spell and paying some power points (something like half the power points used to manifest an 8th level power)
Hey Xlor..... remember I think the champions were something special too...
I also think it's more than just a title ...
the issue, at least for me, is where the being champion left off and becoming Sorcerer King begins..... remember in the pentad, it is pretty much said that the dragon and the other SK's could not make tythian into a SK..... only Rajaat could. (this was said by the heads to Tythian, and in the conversations with Nibenay, it was insinuated that Borys "might" be able to do it with the lens but no gaurentee was made.)
This would trigger my rant about sources, but the short of it is this:
The information comes from Sacha and Wayne. It is not "fact", it's a claim. Sacha and Wayne are not factual sources, they're characters. What they say in the novels is therefore not necessarily cannonical truth. Only the omnicient narrator has that power. We know that they spoke because the narrator says they spoke. But that does not mean that they spoke the truth.
Sacha and Wayne remained loyal to Rajaat. That's why they're two floating heads. (Which says something for being a Champion there -- their fellows could not just kill them.) It's completely concievable that they simply lied to Tithian, because they were, after all, using him to free their master. You must be aware that any claims that they make are filtered through an agenda, and they are perfectly capable of lying to achieve their aims.
What happened to the dragon's regeneration ability? Is that going to be written off as an ability granted by a different source (i.e Rajaat)?
Perhaps an epic level PrC that focuses on the dragon's physical form rather than manifesting powers and casting spells?
I also think it's more than just a title ...
This would trigger my rant about sources, but the short of it is this:
The information comes from Sacha and Wayne. It is not "fact", it's a claim. Sacha and Wayne are not factual sources, they're characters. What they say in the novels is therefore not necessarily cannonical truth. Only the omnicient narrator has that power. We know that they spoke because the narrator says they spoke. But that does not mean that they spoke the truth.
Sacha and Wayne remained loyal to Rajaat. That's why they're two floating heads. (Which says something for being a Champion there -- their fellows could not just kill them.) It's completely concievable that they simply lied to Tithian, because they were, after all, using him to free their master. You must be aware that any claims that they make are filtered through an agenda, and they are perfectly capable of lying to achieve their aims.
I agree anything said by the heads would need to be taken with a grain of salt..... same with anything by the SK's.... that was the big problem I have.... the fact that there is no source that I have seen that gives us a way to truely tell what came from the champion, and what from SK.... I find it annoying.
IMHO the granting of spells would be more likely from champion, as while there are divine spells that grant spellcasting ..... there are no arcane ones..... this leads more to a divine link than an arcane. (and Rajaat was a pyreen so there is a divine link there) but this is only personal opinion.
I personally see the Sorcerer king being the actual title and the champion being where the power comes from.... but that is just me.
This may have been addressed but can't seem to find it anywhere.
What happened to the dragon's regeneration ability? Is that going to be written off as an ability granted by a different source (i.e Rajaat)?
Perhaps an epic level PrC that focuses on the dragon's physical form rather than manifesting powers and casting spells?
the regeneration was actually removed from "normal" Athasian dragons, back in dragon kings..... That is likely something specific to Borys or the champions. Personally I like dragons with regeneration.
Lets face it, in the original box set the Dragon of Tyr (Borys) was the darksun equivelent to the Tarresque on other worlds.... a spellcasting, mindbending, super intelligent Tarresque.
the regeneration was actually removed from "normal" Athasian dragons, back in dragon kings..... That is likely something specific to Borys or the champions. Personally I like dragons with regeneration.
Perhaps a gift granted as part of being turned into Champions. A nice little perk of the Champion template maybe?
Perhaps a gift granted as part of being turned into Champions. A nice little perk of the Champion template maybe?
kinda like my personal thought on it.... after all Nibenay also was regenerating in the 5th book of the pentad
I think my post earlier was overlooked # 48. I kinda talk about the Path of Least power and an alternitive.
Yeah, I saw that. I'm also trying to get some insight from those involved in the creation of the PrC as well. ;)
I was more involved in the spells and the metamorphosis spell seed than the psionic enchantments themselves, that is the reason I did not reply. I was not ignoring it, but it is not my area of expertise.
Yeah, yeah. Likely story. I've seen your type before. ;)
Yeah, yeah. Likely story. I've seen your type before. ;)
lol.....
I do not think you have seen my "type" before..... I have yet to run into another like myself.... and the world is relieved. :P
Has there been any thoughts on tweaking the Path of least resistance ability in some way? Even though its a cool concept, it seems that its hardly worth it considering the ability only effects 10 or so powers or spells. Granted, the dragon could spend his time researching psionic versions of spells and visa versa, but thats borderline power gaming cheese IMO.
Thoughts?
Well, the oriinal idea was that it worked for ALL spells and powers, but that was overruled, I believe because once again, there was concerns over it being too powerful.
As I menioned before -- there were a bunch pf Psionic Enchantment ideas taken out. For instance, using power points to augment spells to get past the normal limitation for per-level increases (like how fireballs have a max of 10d6 damage -- power points culd have been used to make it able to do 11d6, 16d6, 39d6...). This was taken out. The "Path of Least Resistance" was rewritten to not include all spells and powers. Metapsionic feats were left with a rule to use to boost spells, but the reverse (Metamagic feats boosting powers) was taken away. Some were taken out for feat of being too powerful, others for fear of being difficult to balance with the point system powers had. The original focus here was to make a system of blending and intermixing psionics and magic -- something that would be a common theme in all Advanced Beings, and not exclusive to just one type.
Well, the oriinal idea was that it worked for ALL spells and powers, but that was overruled, I believe because once again, there was concerns over it being too powerful.
I can understand the concern behind that, but with the way the ability is now it would work on only a handful of spells and powers. Its only useful in a very limited number of situations.
They were much more defensively based than a dragon though, and that is part of what we are working on when we do them. And even with a lower exp cost they advanced as a full psionicist unlike the dragon that only got half that in the advanced being levels.
Do you mean working on keeping them much more defensive based, or giving them more offensive abilities. I hope you mean the former.I can understand the concern behind that, but with the way the ability is now it would work on only a handful of spells and powers. Its only useful in a very limited number of situations.
I know. That's why we're playtesting. If it doesn't work, maybe that ability can go back to what it was. Originally, it would require an appropriate expenditure of power points while casting a spell, or to use an appropriate arcane spell slot when manifesting a power (the power points would be equal to the points needed to spend on a power the same level of the spell; and the spell slot would need to be the same level as the power being manifested) in order to make that spell or power be able to use whatever was the lesser of either SR or PR. So.... with a 5th level spell, you'd spend 9 power points to make it able to do the path of least resistance. And when manifesting a 8th level power, you sacrifice a 8th level spell slot in order to do the same.
Avangions as far as we have discussed will be defensive in innate powers..... dragons are offensive
The former. Avangions are going to have several defensive abilities. I personally think that the Avangion should be fundamentally weaker than Dragons until the end, however. Basically, my view is that the Dragon progression is a sort of linear scale, each step evenly progresses to the next. The Avangion progression would be more of an exponential scale - the fiorst step is rather insignificant, but then each one after gets progressively more powerful, with Stage-9 -> Stage-10 being the most impressive increase, making the Avangion at that stage equal to (or possibly a little over the top of) a Dragon. Propr to that, an Avangion would have to be very careful around Dragons - for an equivalent-spec'ed (levels) Dragon would be more powerful.
I know. That's why we're playtesting. If it doesn't work, maybe that ability can go back to what it was. Originally, it would require an appropriate expenditure of power points while casting a spell, or to use an appropriate arcane spell slot when manifesting a power (the power points would be equal to the points needed to spend on a power the same level of the spell; and the spell slot would need to be the same level as the power being manifested) in order to make that spell or power be able to use whatever was the lesser of either SR or PR. So.... with a 5th level spell, you'd spend 9 power points to make it able to do the path of least resistance. And when manifesting a 8th level power, you sacrifice a 8th level spell slot in order to do the same.
I think this is a more viable ability. A mechanic that allowed dragons to up the level of spells with a level cap thru the use of the way would make more sense to me. It would validate why a being would want to become a dragon in the first place.
The reason I ask is that it would enable a Dragon to deflect some or all of the backlash damage, say into a group of slaves, and spare them the chance of entering the animalistic rage that comes with the spell.
And what about the spell calm emotion- would that end the dragons rage?
These are just thought that I have had when reading over the material. I first began to wonder amout the possibilities when thinking the Dregoth is in the 9th stage of the dragon metamorphosis, but there is no record of any rampages by him when he was in the lower stages for the transformation, so I reasoned that he may have found a way to avoid the rage, as Nibeney does right now.
Here is another question. I do not have the ELH in front of me or I would look it up. Can the backlash damage delt by the spell be transfered or some how lessened with tempory HP (empathic wound transfer, shield other, aid, ect.)?
The reason I ask is that it would enable a Dragon to deflect some or all of the backlash damage, say into a group of slaves, and spare them the chance of entering the animalistic rage that comes with the spell.
And what about the spell calm emotion- would that end the dragons rage?
These are just thought that I have had when reading over the material. I first began to wonder amout the possibilities when thinking the Dregoth is in the 9th stage of the dragon metamorphosis, but there is no record of any rampages by him when he was in the lower stages for the transformation, so I reasoned that he may have found a way to avoid the rage, as Nibeney does right now.
Per ELH
The caster cannot somehow avoid or make himself immune to backlash damage.
so no they cannot avoid it like that.... they can however research a variant with a lower backlash damage. (but not one without, as you will see when the metamorphosis seed is released, as all defiler spells with the seed require backlash of at least 1d6) Note how do we know he did not have any rampages..... after all he did have the mirror to the other planes where he could rampage at will. And while you cannot yourself do it.... there are PrC which lower backlash..... the netherese one from forgotten realms for instance.
you could research an epic variant of calm emotion that might do it..... remember it is due to the pain of the metamorphosis that causes the rampage, so the normal spell would not be likely to effect it.
and Nibenay has not started into the stage that the rampage starts in..... he is in the stage before by the rules from 2ed
As for the Planer Gate- I did had thought that it was not until he had moved to the area of New Gustenal (spelling) that the Gate was found and he was able to make use of it.
I know that Nib has not started on the rampages- that is why he has the Child-Priestes- in 2e she and some psionic ability that he thought he could use to help him overcome the rage.
Yes, and he hasn't progressed for fear that even that wouldn't help.
As for the Planer Gate- I did had thought that it was not until he had moved to the area of New Gustenal (spelling) that the Gate was found and he was able to make use of it.
Dregoth, the Champion of Rajaat set against Giants, had conquered the Giant city of Giustenal, and claimed it as his own. He basically stayed there for the duration of the Cleansing Wars, even having attracted the attention of Rajaat -- as Dregoth seemed to suddenly be less and less interested in actually doing his "job".
Personally, I take it down the path that Dregoth was in the process of developing the Dragon metamorphosis -- and the reason he is 9th stage while the others are only 4th or less, is because he made the spell line, and has been sort of using the other Dragons as lab experiments in an effort to overcome the flaws in its design. He also tracks down and finds the Planar Gate, spending most of his time now exploring the multiverse through that gate, and learning new things. Note: this is my own spin on Dregoth, and not necessarily the way things are officially.
Dregoth's main limitation from achieving Stage 10, is the fact that he is undead now. However, DA will also reveal that he's had his mind on other goals keeping himself busy.
All PrCs in Appendix I that dable in augmenting defiling, or involve manipulation of animal life energy, grant Tainted Aura (Arch Defiler and Leech).