If not, any talk on creating an Avangion yet?
As for the pertinant threads, I'm not really sure. Though, I'm sure if you look for the words Avangion, Advanced Beings, and scan through the Dragon feedback you'll find a little of what people have posted about them.
The Avangion is being created next, in fact it is probably in the works right now, since the Dragon rules are basically in their final form. Then after the Avangion rules are done, I would imagine the Elementals will be next, and finally the Spirit of the Land. Of course the Elementals are by far the easiest, I could make some rules for them myself and be done with them in a couple of days. But, I'm not going to :P , I'll patiently wait for the Templerate to complete them.
Personally, I felt that Elementals and Spirits of the Land were really shafted compared to Dragons and Avangions in 2e. As such, I'm gonna push for a little buffing up on those, possibly a little restructuring of them a bit, to make them comparable to the two arcane Advanced Beings, with their own semi-unique process of development (as there really is no "spell line" according to 2E, but that could be changed).
I realize this is somewhat silly, but I was just looking at the epic rules and wondering.
PS On a related note, is there a psionic counterpart to the Improved Spell Capacity feat that a psychic warrior could take to gain 9th level powers so that he could then take Epic Manifestation to become an epic manifester?
Are there any plans to consider what could happen with an epic ranger/psion (or wilder) who managed to aquire the Epic Spellcasting feat? Of course it's not very likely to happen, but it seems possible via the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat (taken 5 times) that an epic ranger could gain 9th level ranger spells and then take the Epic Spellcasting feat to become an epic caster. Would they be able to follow a path similar to a druid transforming into a Spirit of the Land, would it be something completely different or could they not transform at all?
I realize this is somewhat silly, but I was just looking at the epic rules and wondering.
PS On a related note, is there a psionic counterpart to the Improved Spell Capacity feat that a psychic warrior could take to gain 9th level powers so that he could then take Epic Manifestation to become an epic manifester?
If we end up following our current requirements.... if a ranger gained spellcasting spell level of 9+ and epic spellcasting they most likely would qualify for the Spirit of the Land.... it would fit.... but we have not discussed it yet.
And I have seen no official psionic counterpart to improved spell capacity feat.
Are there any plans to consider what could happen with an epic ranger/psion (or wilder) who managed to aquire the Epic Spellcasting feat? Of course it's not very likely to happen, but it seems possible via the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat (taken 5 times) that an epic ranger could gain 9th level ranger spells and then take the Epic Spellcasting feat to become an epic caster. Would they be able to follow a path similar to a druid transforming into a Spirit of the Land, would it be something completely different or could they not transform at all?
I realize this is somewhat silly, but I was just looking at the epic rules and wondering.
I dunno, the problem is -- I don't think Rangers could meet the requirements, especially if we stick to the 9th level spellcasting requirement (that is a *ton* of Improved Spell Capacities). However, I'm gonna have to agree with Seker that due to how Rangers are now being done officially, I'd say they could fall into the Spirit of the Land issue (personally, I like the old style of no spellcasting ability for Rangers at all, but that's just me).
PS On a related note, is there a psionic counterpart to the Improved Spell Capacity feat that a psychic warrior could take to gain 9th level powers so that he could then take Epic Manifestation to become an epic manifester?
There is no official version of this -- however I do think that the Epic Level Handbook does say that such a thing is possible in a sidebar, by simply swapping Spell levels for Power levels. However, it is a moot point. The reason for the 6th level power requirement for Dragons (and probably other Advanced Beings) is NOT because we wanted to include Psychic Warriors. It is because of system limitations for multiclassing spellcasters & multicasting manifesters. It is because multiclassing in 3/3.5e is completely incompatable with multiclassing from 2e in every concievable way. It just ended up being convenient to reduce the psionic power level requirement to 6th, and induct PSychic Warriors into the mix, while at the same time, using the conversion mechanics that Wizards of the Coast had originally published as a pamphlet back when they released D&D 3.0 -- and in actuality, we're technically requiring 2 more levels of psion with the 6th level requirement, than the technical letter of the conversion pamphlet would demand.
This is an issue people seem to have a difficult time grasping, because the idea that an Advanced Being, like a Dragon, should, in their minds, be "masters" of magic and psionics. However, it really isn't feasable in 3/3.5e without significantly weakening the overall power of the Dragon or other Advanced Being. I still am rather frustrated that we are only allowing a level of manifester or spellcaster each level, rather than a level of manifester [b]and[/i] spellcaster each level, because I feel the current method does not solve the brokenness of this mechanic at all, while the one I proposed (the latter option) would fix that much more neatly. But, I was outvoted, and saw it was a battle I'd not win, with people pointing to pre-existing Prestige Classes that blend the two concepts together, which at Epic Levels they split up the difference like that (like the Cerebrmancer).
I can go into detail as to the problems inherant with dividing a character equally between psionics and magic, I can show through numbers and playtesting why such a character is ineffectual in any way, shape, or form against equal-level characters that have not divided their efforts like that, and I can even quote the conversion manual on how to calculate the levels for a multiclassed/dual classed character from 2E into 3E - explaining the vast difference in how those mechanics work (the least of which being that a dual-classed level 20 Wizard in 2e, when they start taking levels of Psionicist, they don't pay the XP cost for a level 21 character, but the XP cost of a level 1 Psionicist -- radically different right there). And in 2E, the dual-clasing system was significantly broken -- for a Wizard 20/Psionicist 20 was treated as a 20th level character. In 3/3.5e, that is considered a 40th level character -- and a 40th level wizard, or a 40th level psion would significantly kick the split character's butt in every combat, and wouldn't even get phased by the split-class character.
Are there any plans to consider what could happen with an epic ranger/psion (or wilder) who managed to aquire the Epic Spellcasting feat? Of course it's not very likely to happen, but it seems possible via the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat (taken 5 times) that an epic ranger could gain 9th level ranger spells and then take the Epic Spellcasting feat to become an epic caster. Would they be able to follow a path similar to a druid transforming into a Spirit of the Land, would it be something completely different or could they not transform at all?
This is something that Brax referred to as "Compulsive Symmetry" ... there used to be arguments that since Cleric/Psions, and Wizard/Psions would transform into something, than a Fighter/Psion should be able to make a transformation (Yes, these argument have occured)
So, we have a certain number of established transformations: Avangion, Dragon, Spirit of the Land, Elemental. Plus your various undead transformations, such as Karshiga and T'Liz. If anything's added, it needs to be well justified. Thus, I'm generally against anything "special" for epic ranger/psions, epic templar/psions, or any combination of the above. And I'm against disqualifying, or creating a new hierachy, because the character is a wilder and not a psion.
My take is this: Your transformations are not forced on you by your class. You choose them, and you have to qualify for them. And so, if a Ranger took the effort to manage to qualify to become a Spirit of the Land, and met the class requirements than there's no reason to block him from it. Sure, it's not the usual, or most efficient, route to the ability, but it's valid.
Personally, I felt that Elementals and Spirits of the Land were really shafted compared to Dragons and Avangions in 2e. As such, I'm gonna push for a little buffing up on those, possibly a little restructuring of them a bit, to make them comparable to the two arcane Advanced Beings, with their own semi-unique process of development (as there really is no "spell line" according to 2E, but that could be changed).
you'll likely win that push, don't forget, 3e is all about 'balance' and athas.org is fanatical (rightly so) about maintaining that balance so they can keep their official dark sun status..
----
Dragons can become undead kaisharga.. if an Avangion became undead.. would it become a ghost?? would that make much difference?? :P it seems like the boards are treating them as creatures of energy anyway.. not necessarily entirely corporeal.. in a sense anyway :P
you'll likely win that push, don't forget, 3e is all about 'balance' and athas.org is fanatical (rightly so) about maintaining that balance so they can keep their official dark sun status..
That was what I was hoping for.
Dragons can become undead kaisharga.. if an Avangion became undead.. would it become a ghost?? would that make much difference?? :P it seems like the boards are treating them as creatures of energy anyway.. not necessarily entirely corporeal.. in a sense anyway :P
Umm.... Dragon's don't just become undead kaisharga. Dregoth became something like a kaisharga, but not due to his being a Dragon. it was due to him setting up the whole process in advance, if memory serves.
As such, I'd say that Dragons could concievably become any kind of undead that they could before becoming a Dragon (minus those that are specifically for Humanoids or not for Dragons as stated in any write-ups). Avangions, I'd feel would be the same way.
If anyone here were to craft an entirely new Dragon, and an entirely new Avangion, what personalities would you grant them?? And in the scenario I'm envisioning, I'm talking two individuals (existing at the same time or not) who are very proactive, screaming forward and completing their metamorphosis and taking the fight forward. Either against the SK's, against the preservers, or something else grand and era changing.. any ideas?
I'd make them behave like they were PCs: stomping all over everything, so thoroughly convinced that they were right that nothing can dissuade them from meddling in things they just don't understand. In general, just leaving a wake of anarchy and broken laws in their path so wide that literally anybody could trace their steps ....
And, of course, suffering from some obscure malady, wherey they are prone to hyperfocus on some small environmental detail while ignoreing everything else ... "because the DM bothered to mention it"
Are there any plans to consider what could happen with an epic ranger/psion (or wilder) who managed to aquire the Epic Spellcasting feat? Of course it's not very likely to happen, but it seems possible via the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat (taken 5 times) that an epic ranger could gain 9th level ranger spells and then take the Epic Spellcasting feat to become an epic caster. Would they be able to follow a path similar to a druid transforming into a Spirit of the Land, would it be something completely different or could they not transform at all?
I realize this is somewhat silly, but I was just looking at the epic rules and wondering.
PS On a related note, is there a psionic counterpart to the Improved Spell Capacity feat that a psychic warrior could take to gain 9th level powers so that he could then take Epic Manifestation to become an epic manifester?
Read the rules again, you are coming to the wrong conclusions regarding Epic Mainifestion and Power levels above normal.
If anyone here were to craft an entirely new Dragon, and an entirely new Avangion, what personalities would you grant them?? And in the scenario I'm envisioning, I'm talking two individuals (existing at the same time or not) who are very proactive, screaming forward and completing their metamorphosis and taking the fight forward. Either against the SK's, against the preservers, or something else grand and era changing.. any ideas?
I was actually going to introduce in my campaign a new dragon. My concept was that he was going to be a Champion of Rajaat that fled the Tablelands after the Rebellion, not because he was for Rajaat, but because he was against the Warbringer and the others did not know about him. For me it always seemed strange that there was no one after the pyreens, and so I was planning on having this dragon (Dyrden Tenebrath) be the one who was charged with hunting down and assassinating the pyreens. The purpose of this would be twofold. First, the pyreens would have been actively helping the other races, and would make effective generals and advisors. In order to effectively eliminate this help, you don’t need an army, just an assassin with a small strike team. Second, since Rajaat would want to return to the Blue Age, the pyreen are the ones with much knowledge of how things came to be the way they are, and he would want their wisdom and advice. So for these purposes, Dyrden did not just kill them, but also captured their soul, or turned them into wraiths under his control, I haven’t quite worked that out yet. Something very much like what Hamanu does with Windreaver. The thing is though that Dyrden turns on his master, because he is convinced by these trapped pyreen that what he is doing is wrong, and instead he flees and has spent the his time exploring the world with his new advisors (since he cannot return them to life) and due to the recent changes (Psionatrix being one, and “the day the sun rose blue cause Rajaat was freed” as the other) in the world, has secretly returned to the Tablelands to investigate what has been happening. Since he is now working for good, (yet still a dragon, which I’ll get to) he wants to work towards making Athas better. My only question is this (and forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere) if a mage has access to other energy sources (the black or the grey) and is a dragon, can they use their dragon magic without harming the environment? I want him to be a darker hero than Oronis, perhaps even a undead by choice to stop the metamorphosis and not harm the environment at all, maybe even accepting a curse not to defile. Anyway, he would be back to try to make the Tablelands green again, and improve and atone for his past mistakes, with his undead/ soul captured pyreen advisors. I don’t know, is this what you meant Lyric? And can anyone answer the other questions?
Read the rules again, you are coming to the wrong conclusions regarding Epic Mainifestion and Power levels above normal.
From the Epic Psionic Powers portion of the SRD
Psionic characters take the Epic Manifestation feat, which works just like the Epic Spellcasting feat. The prerequisites for this feat are 24 ranks of Psicraft, 24 ranks of Knowledge (psionics), and the ability to manifest 9th-level psionic powers.
I read the rules again. What am I getting wrong?
From the Epic Psionic Powers portion of the SRD
I read the rules again. What am I getting wrong?
Improved Spell Capacity only grants additional spell levels for the purpose of adding Metamagic feats to the spells. It does not grant actual new spell levels. So in order to take the Epic spellcasting (manifesting) you would need to cast 9th level spells (manifest powers). The assumption that you could have a ranger become a AB (which by all previous standards, implies the ability to cast Epic spells) is not possible, following the rules of the ELHB. Interestingly enough, the same rule seems to preclude psychic warriors from taking the Epic Manifesting feat as well.
Its the Epic Spellcasting feat that matters for ABs.
That a wizard is a also a psion or wilder or psychic warrior is but a footnote.
Still, why is everyone fixation on the Epic Manifesting feat?
Its the Epic Spellcasting feat that matters for ABs.
That a wizard is a also a psion or wilder or psychic warrior is but a footnote.
I've been trying to figure that one out too. Unless people are confused as to why the psionics are given a lower level than magic again. If so, I guess I should make that part of a Dark Sun FAQ on my site (getting tired of regurgitating the explanation...)
And it's fun to derail threads. ;)
I was actually going to .... Anyway, he would be back to try to make the Tablelands green again, and improve and atone for his past mistakes, with his undead/ soul captured pyreen advisors. I don’t know, is this what you meant Lyric? And can anyone answer the other questions?
Yup, that's exactly it
sounds great :D keep up the good ideas let me know how your players like it.. what energy source would you have him pull from? and are you going to grant him any special advantages or hindrances from it? will he be a fully formed dragon?? will he have gained any special knowledge from outside the table lands??My question on epic manifesting was an afterthought after the original question about epic spellcasting. I realize epic manifestation is not a requirement for ABs, but since I had already posted the question to this (mostly dead) thread, I thought I'd continue here.
And it's fun to derail threads. ;)
That makes me think.. is there any way an aditional benefit could be gained by an avangion or other AB who had not only epic spellcasting but epic manifesting?? If a PC took both, (legally of course) could he then gain say, an extra manifesting level "&" spellcasting level? instead of "or" as with the dragon?? maybe not at every level where a spellcasting level is gained.. maybe just a bonus 2 or 3 levels that way? maybe more? just a thought.. (I really want the avangion to have a definite edge when it comes to psionics in some fashion.. however that turns out.. to balance out a Dragon's ability to drain from living creatures.. (and simply being able to substitute their own hp is a pathetic attempt)
Yes, I want to know too: Could a AB that has Epic Manifesting have a synergy with his AB abilities?
Synergy
I like that term :D good call That makes me think.. is there any way an aditional benefit could be gained by an avangion or other AB who had not only epic spellcasting but epic manifesting?? If a PC took both, (legally of course) could he then gain say, an extra manifesting level "&" spellcasting level? instead of "or" as with the dragon?? maybe not at every level where a spellcasting level is gained.. maybe just a bonus 2 or 3 levels that way? maybe more? just a thought.. (I really want the avangion to have a definite edge when it comes to psionics in some fashion.. however that turns out.. to balance out a Dragon's ability to drain from living creatures.. (and simply being able to substitute their own hp is a pathetic attempt)
I dunno. The two things are relatively identical--so much that they are the same rules mechanics. I've toyed with ways to have Psionic Enchantments work with Epic... but it's fallen kind of short. By definition, power points are no more involved with Epic Manifesting than spell slots are with Epic Spellcasting. There's the skill DC check (spellcraft or psicraft), which COULD do with some more buffing out on the rules. Who knows, Seker's currently playing with all of that (to my knowledge), and ther might be some mitigating bonus for using both.
Improved Spell Capacity only grants additional spell levels for the purpose of adding Metamagic feats to the spells. It does not grant actual new spell levels. So in order to take the Epic spellcasting (manifesting) you would need to cast 9th level spells (manifest powers). The assumption that you could have a ranger become a AB (which by all previous standards, implies the ability to cast Epic spells) is not possible, following the rules of the ELHB. Interestingly enough, the same rule seems to preclude psychic warriors from taking the Epic Manifesting feat as well.
Hehe, i just reread my post and realized my mistake. Epic Manifesting is not a required element of becoming an AB like Epic Spellcasting seems to be. so psychic warriors would be just as eligible as other psionic characters. My bad...
Yup, that's exactly it
i definately will, once i have the time to get some players, grad school and work tend to get in the way of fun.
what energy source would you have him pull from? and are you going to grant him any special advantages or hindrances from it?
i was toying with him being the first of Rajaat's champions to pull from the black, because he was going to have to fight pyreen, and it would be an energysource that did not harm the land, which (in miy mind) pyreen would have a harder time with, given their druidic type abilities (just speculation) he would have some necromantic abilities too. i was thinking instead of a champion template, something like the shade template, with some minor tweeking. i was thinkning he would end up pulling from the grey too. (see below)
will he be a fully formed dragon?? will he have gained any special knowledge from outside the table lands??
i was not going to have him be a full dragon. in truth, just a stage one. the reason for this was i thought it would be cool if he was cursed by the last pyreen he killed/trapped/whatever and became something like a kaisragra. at this point he would have that change of heart, and be able to open up a different power source. i also like the idea of an undead dragon working for good by using dragon type abilities against the undead from the dead lands. it would effect undead just like normal dragon magic effects the living. i could see him being a big help against a dead lands incursion, or against dregoth, depending on how i want to take it in my games.
as for what knowledge he has gained outside the tablelands, i was unsure of where to go with that. there is another thread that is out there dealing with the different regions of athas, and i was going to have him in one of those places, exploring the world, and maybe setting up an empire for himself before returning. then there is the question of whether or not he brings them back with him.
a lot of it is up in the air still, but i have a lot of ideas. the premise is that he is able to use powers that are thought of as evil for good, because things that happened to him made it so he cannot be changed like oronis, but still wants to improve athas and make it full of life and green again.
Any timeline on when we get to see the avangion?
good luck with that
though you would think that now that they have the dragon it shouldn't be 'as' difficult to create, since they have a template of sorts as a guide..good luck with that
Yes, but currently, the focus of the Bureau is the Champion of Rajaat template (Still need that for DA). Avangions in some ways will be easier since we have the structure already set (10 spells + PrC), but the Avangion does develop in a different way, and the 2nd Ed. Avangion was significantly weaker than a Dragon--as such, we might need to balance by boosting the Avangion a bit to make it more in-line with regards to power.
but I wont complain if you want to powr up the avangion more
I think they could use a boost (especially in psionics!!) sorry ;) that's my take on them.. that they are equal in psionic and magical might.. (minus the difference psionic enchantments make from whatever PrC you craft)If you mean an avangion was weaker in a battle against hordes of others then yes, without the dragons' ability to go physically attack.. but against a dragon, a 2e avangion nullified the physical offenses of a dragon inately.. they were well paired off that way...
but I wont complain if you want to powr up the avangion more
Actually, statistically (and remember, you cannot use roleplaying as a means of balance in 3/3.5e D&D rules mechanics) the Avangion was far worse off than the Dragon. The Advanced Beings were significantly broken in the balance field--with the Elementals and Spirits of the Land being even *weaker* than the two Arcane AB's--they gave me the impression of something that was hurried together slapped into a book near the end of TSR... Of course, I've had issues with the AB's from Day 1 (one of the reasons I got brought in on the Epic Bureau).
Most of the ABs seem to reflect this. In DK, it does seem that the only one's really worked out were Dragons. Avangions seemed to be added in as a counterweight (and Orinis, Krogunard and Nerad didn't come into the picture until after DK (though, not by much. DK and Arcane Shadows came out in the same year)) ... and then the clerical ABs, which bear horrifying parallels to the "magical $foo" transformations in anime ....
Remember, Troy Denning's response to Avangions was "Athas doesn't need angels" ... and the clerical transformations, when you reflect on them, don't seem terribly well thought out. Which is what brings up the "compulsive symmetry" accusation.
However, it's established, and that's what we've got to work with.
There's a phrase, first coined by Brax, to reflect this: "Compulsive Symmetry"
Most of the ABs seem to reflect this. In DK, it does seem that the only one's really worked out were Dragons. Avangions seemed to be added in as a counterweight (and Orinis, Krogunard and Nerad didn't come into the picture until after DK (though, not by much. DK and Arcane Shadows came out in the same year)) ... and then the clerical ABs, which bear horrifying parallels to the "magical $foo" transformations in anime ....
Remember, Troy Denning's response to Avangions was "Athas doesn't need angels" ... and the clerical transformations, when you reflect on them, don't seem terribly well thought out. Which is what brings up the "compulsive symmetry" accusation.
However, it's established, and that's what we've got to work with.
I'm not looking for compulsive symmetry. If we have made Dragons be a certian power, 3.5E mechanics dictate that the others that follow the same progression (specifically: Avangions) must be balanced in power, or else it is broken. We've established a certian level of power for the Dragons, and Avangions need to remain a counterbalance, which in 2E, they weren't as well thought out. We have more references to base things off from now, which didn't really exist before. As such, it is important to take those new developments into account, and also ensure that the class balance is produced.
For the SotL and Cleric AB's--I understand they were developed from the ground-up to be different. And I do like having them be handled differently. However, if the end result is a 10-level Epic PrC with the standard AB things like psionic enchantments, the game mechanics would warrent a balance in power there as well.
If the Dragon's abilities had to be stripped down from what was originally proposed into what they've now become in the class, all in the name of Balance, you have to allow for the other AB's to be balanced and either increased in power or decreased in power where appropriate, or else, there was no real justifiable reason to weaken parts of the Dragon PrC & Spell line. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Dragons needed to be weaker because of Balance, and then in turn, state that the other AB's don't need to be buffed any because that would just be "compulsive symmetry" and therefore doesn't apply.
I'm not looking for compulsive symmetry. If we have made Dragons be a certian power, 3.5E mechanics dictate that the others that follow the same progression (specifically: Avangions) must be balanced in power, or else it is broken.
Xlor, I wasn't talking about you. I was accusing DK of suffering from compulsive symmetry.
I've been one of the more stubborn advocates of keeping things balanced by 3e core rules, so I'm certainly not arguing with you about that. :p
However it all turns out, I can't wait for it to happen
As a side note... anyone have a clue why psionics in the green age were stereotyped as so much more powerful??? it also gives Rajaat the same image when his mind is considered, that his mental abilities are far superior to that of his champions, and not likely just because of his sorceror abilities...
(do you think rajaat is a sorceror/wizard)???
Xlor, I wasn't talking about you. I was accusing DK of suffering from compulsive symmetry.
I've been one of the more stubborn advocates of keeping things balanced by 3e core rules, so I'm certainly not arguing with you about that. :p
I thought as much, but I guess it was the lack of quote that made me uncertian :P Plus, I just wanted to ensure others didn't get likewise confused :P
Something to be noted about Druids however is that they don't require any levels in psion to gain their advanced abilities. Druids didn't become SoTL in the Dragon Kings book.
But they did in Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. And I believe that there was the Psionicist requirement. Even so, the fact that the others need it to become Advanced Beings, and Advanced Beings all have access to Psionic Enchantments, it would stand to reason that Druids would too.
then what book did add them into the mix with psionics?? was it earth air fire and water?? I know one book did...
However it all turns out, I can't wait for it to happen
As a side note... anyone have a clue why psionics in the green age were stereotyped as so much more powerful??? it also gives Rajaat the same image when his mind is considered, that his mental abilities are far superior to that of his champions, and not likely just because of his sorceror abilities...
(do you think rajaat is a sorceror/wizard)???
Rajaat, by the very nature of being a Pyreen, is a creature with Druid and Psionic abilities. I've proposed that unlike other Druids, who gain their divine abilities through Spirits of the Land (which in turn, are given equal shares of power from the four main elements due to the pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water to be the embodiment of the balance the four prime elements desire), that Rajaat's deformity has linked him directly into the four Paraelements--making him a sort of bizarre Druid--or possibly unable to cast spells as a Druid (but retaining some sort of connection to the Paraelements).
And I believe Rajaat to be something beyond either a Wizard or a Sorcerer--a being with access to every possible arcane spell out there, but able to spontaneously cast them at will. Plus, more or less immune to any Arcane spell effect (the idea that since he invented Arcane Magic, and is the First Sorcerer, he has knowledge on how to counter/defend against all he has taught/revealed to others keeping him secure from being able to be harmed by it).
But they did in Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. And I believe that there was the Psionicist requirement. Even so, the fact that the others need it to become Advanced Beings, and Advanced Beings all have access to Psionic Enchantments, it would stand to reason that Druids would too.
Yah, your right they did. It seems like kind of an afterthought though. The only things they get during the transformation according to Earth, Air, Fire, Water, is more hit dice and an improving AC. They didn't even really flesh the rules out at all, so that source isn't going to help much in designing the transformation, in terms of rules at least.
Yah, your right they did. It seems like kind of an afterthought though. The only things they get during the transformation according to Earth, Air, Fire, Water, is more hit dice and an improving AC. They didn't even really flesh the rules out at all, so that source isn't going to help much in designing the transformation, in terms of rules at least.
True enough. Fortunately, I have some interesting ideas for how to handle Spirits of the Land.
Rajaat, by the very nature of being a Pyreen, is a creature with Druid and Psionic abilities. I've proposed that unlike other Druids, who gain their divine abilities through Spirits of the Land (which in turn, are given equal shares of power from the four main elements due to the pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water to be the embodiment of the balance the four prime elements desire), that Rajaat's deformity has linked him directly into the four Paraelements--making him a sort of bizarre Druid--or possibly unable to cast spells as a Druid (but retaining some sort of connection to the Paraelements).
And I believe Rajaat to be something beyond either a Wizard or a Sorcerer--a being with access to every possible arcane spell out there, but able to spontaneously cast them at will. Plus, more or less immune to any Arcane spell effect (the idea that since he invented Arcane Magic, and is the First Sorcerer, he has knowledge on how to counter/defend against all he has taught/revealed to others keeping him secure from being able to be harmed by it).
I know the material suggests that Rajaat "Invented" arcane magic, but I don't believe that to be the case. My theory goes along these lines:
Lifeshaping is a combination of genetic engineering/psionics/magic that predates the use of psionics as a discipline, and psionics predates arcane magic. I suggest that both existed during the time when lifeshaping was the big thing, however they were EXTREMELY rare. People just didn't know what they had. Occasionally sorcerers would manifest their power with no detriment to the land because life was so abundant back then that no one realized life was being drained. Psionics were wild talents. Both were likely burned at the stake for being different from the normal lifeshapers. I would even go so far as to suggest the Nature Benders knew of these differences and built the Pristine Tower to take advantage of these barely known powers. I would even suggest the Brown Tide to be a magical experiment gone awry.
I would credit Rajaat with advancing the study of arcane magic into clearly defined arts that could be taught and expanded upon. Since arcane magic before Rajaat was so rare as to be unheard of, Rajaat is then credited as being the First Sorcerer.
When the status quo of lifeshaping failed to secure civilization, people looked for other means to build an enlightend civilization, the answer being psionics in the green age.
I think you can see where I'm going with this so I'll stop rambling now
I know the material suggests that Rajaat "Invented" arcane magic, but I don't believe that to be the case. My theory goes along these lines:
Lifeshaping is a combination of genetic engineering/psionics/magic that predates the use of psionics as a discipline, and psionics predates arcane magic. I suggest that both existed during the time when lifeshaping was the big thing, however they were EXTREMELY rare. People just didn't know what they had. Occasionally sorcerers would manifest their power with no detriment to the land because life was so abundant back then that no one realized life was being drained. Psionics were wild talents. Both were likely burned at the stake for being different from the normal lifeshapers. I would even go so far as to suggest the Nature Benders knew of these differences and built the Pristine Tower to take advantage of these barely known powers. I would even suggest the Brown Tide to be a magical experiment gone awry.
I would credit Rajaat with advancing the study of arcane magic into clearly defined arts that could be taught and expanded upon. Since arcane magic before Rajaat was so rare as to be unheard of, Rajaat is then credited as being the First Sorcerer.
When the status quo of lifeshaping failed to secure civilization, people looked for other means to build an enlightend civilization, the answer being psionics in the green age.
I think you can see where I'm going with this so I'll stop rambling now
Ahh, well... I have Lifeshaping be a form of bioengineered technology. Ala the Yuuzhon Vong in Star Wars: New Jedi Order. No magic, no Psionics. Strictly technological.
Psionics arrived to Athas with the advent of the Psionic Bomb, that changed the Githyanki that were here into the pitiful Gith.
Divine magic, in the forms of the Clerics and Druids is the only form of "supernatural" energy that existed in the Blue Age, from what I've been able to tell. There was no Psionics, and there was no Arcane Magic. Life Shaping did exist, but as I stated above, I see that as a form of bioengineered technology, not a supernatural energy type.
The Rhul Thaun even are noted as rejecting and being relatively repulsed by the "unnatural" energies of Psionics--considering they've been more or less secluded and retain the most direct elements of the Rhulisti culture, it seems to support that Psionics didn't exist in the Blue Age.
The materials also clearly state (they don't allude to) that Rajaat invented/created Arcane Magic. He is the First Sorcerer. There is really no room for doubt on this--of course, people can do to the world as they personally see fit, and so your above take on it easily can work for your own campaigns.
I am looking to use Korengard (spelling) in my campaign- after the events in the Dragon Crown adventure- yes I know he died, but my story is that he either had a clone on hand or was resurrected by the party who was helping him out.
I was looking for his basic stats- they were not on Khain's Whos Who thread, though I did find Farcluun whom is also going to show up in my next session.
My take on him is Preserver 10/Psion(seer or telepath) 10/Cerebremancer 10/Avangion 4, stage 3 Avangion, making him slightly weaker then Farcluun (38 lvls vs 34 lvl). I was wondering what everyone had for thoughts on the Avangion PrC abilities (hypothetically until the Epic boys at Athas.org release the write up)- I was thinking about having them gain both +1 caster and maniferster levels, Duplex like the dragons, and maybe something like a power point regeneration. As for the abilities the avangion metamorphosis, well, I was thinking that they would get DR and SR/PR sooner, a sacred or good bonus to saves and AC, flight and levitation.
I really do not need to fully stat out either of these two fellows now, but I was wanting to be able to present these two in such a way that the PCs will be able to get some early exposure to them and know that they are in some things that are way over their heads.
I actually replaced the cerulean wizard in Whispers (my modified version) with Korengard in disguise and now the PCs are traveling to Tyr where they will play the Tyrian Conspiracy (my modified version) and on the way there, Korengard will talk with the PC's (who think the 'wizard' they helped out is a shadow wizard) and then Farcluun will show up with some lackeys and the two groups will kind of face off- the two AB's going at it while their small groups of followers fight. My hope is that the PCs will beat F's followers and then the two ABs fight will carry them away from the area and the characters will make their own way to Tyr.
Any thoughts on what is should or should not allow them to see?
I can't see the Avangion PrC being all that different the Dragon. All that really needs to be replaced would be the "Energy Storing", "Dragon Magic", and the "Psionic Raze" abilities.
Well I thought that there had been some talk of having the avangion be more potent in psionics and magic- other then that I agree that they will be very similar.
As for the advancement- I believe that they will get several Int, Wis, and Cha bumps- and most likely severel decreases to Str.
Do you think that the Avangions will get size increases- I think that they will, just due to the 'wing' size of them and the 2e art work- most likely the Str increases that they would get for the size increase will be reduced by placing penilities on them as they grow thinner and stuff- But I really think that they would still have a great COn and maybe even some great Dex mods as they progress- so instead of gaining really cool physical attacks like a dragon, they will have most of their other stats increased.
Avangions began geting magic resistance at the first stage of the metamorphosis and ended up with 80% by the final stage. In contrast Dragons didn't begin getting magic resistance until the 8th stage of their transformation but ended up with the same magic resistance in the end.
They started getting damage reduction at the second stage of the transformation and ended up with DR +5 weapons or better
by the eighth stage of the transformation. In contrast dragons didn't start getting DR until the 5th stage of the transformation and only end up with DR +2 weapons or better.
Avangions gained a +1 bonus to wisdom each level starting at the seventh stage of the transformation and gained +2 bonus on the final stage. Dragons gained no bonuses to stats (other than those that occur from size increases), but dragons did improve their attack bonus much more quickly than avangions.
Avangions armor class improved by 16 points over the corse of the transformation starting on the 1st stage, for dragons it improved by 20 points , but didn't start until the forth stage when they suddenly gained 6 points at once.
Avangions gained 90ft radius arua of light that functioned as a permanent protection from evil spell and automatically dispeled all darkness at their 8th stage. At the 9th stage the aura increased to a 150ft radius and functioned as a Ray of Enfeeblement spell against all evil creatures. At the final stage the arua expanded to a 200ft radius and also functioned as a Globe of Invunerability.
In contrast Dragons gained a number of natural attacks: 2 claws, a bite, a tail attack, and a breath weapon.
Here are some things that I think the Avangion should get- Some really high mods to Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha with some big penilties to Str. I think Hover as a bonus feat would be in order along with gaining the ability to fly like around the 3rd stage. To really balance out the physical abilities of the dragon- the avangion will need to have a better caster/maniferster progression, but I think that will be more through the PrC- the ability mods will come with the transformation as their bodies and minds are altered to be able to contain the psionic/magical energys that they will have.
Now the Avangions have the rage- but what will be a DC mitigating factor for the Avangions- I think that it should be something like a catatonic sleep as their bodies change- like a catapiller and a butterfly type of thing- which will be ther most vulnerable time hence the requirement to have the 'core group of campanions' as stated in the DK book.
In the DK book, it has the material component being a diamond worth 10,000gp= 1,000,000cp with the athas.org conversion- WOW!!! I think this requirement should be a keeper too.
In addition, Dragons could only cast their 10th level Psionic Enchantments with the use of special obsidian orbs that they swallowed.. Avangions, again, needed no such devices.. (hence why Sadira was able to threaten borys by destroying the orbs within his stomach, it would have prevented him from casting the spells necessary to keep rajaat sealed..)
--
I like the idea of Avangions getting the ability to levitate, it wasn't an ability touched on in 2e, but if they need to fly all the time, (no longer having feet or legs, nor their frames being able to support thier own weight should they land) levitation should be innate and constant..
I also like the idea of an Avangion having an Epic Evasion ability.. all that speed, the confusing light from the aura, the shrud of wings and the really high SR and DR, make for a decent precedent for such a move, especially since the avangion had a much higher flight speed and maneuverability rate in 2e..
I also agree with the double improvement on the spellcasting and manifesting classes with each level..
You may consider the idea of breaking the Aura effect up into staged advancement, at first blocking only say, 1st level spells, and producing one of the other effects it projects.. and increasing as the Prc advances.. You could base that loosely around the concept that the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil uses.. (very loosely)
Don't forget that in 2e also, both Dragons and Avangions had as innate abilities the spells Tongues, Esp, and Detect Lies constantly active.. (I think)
You could work that in as well..
and as suggested earlier, grant the Avangion a higher SR/DR than his dragon counterpart, that should help even out the playing field..
And while the Avangion should be cautious, wise, and perhaps even somewhat noble seeming in character, keep in mind he's still a preserver, and very few preservers climb to epic levels without having faced down a defiler or two in their time.. Don't make him affraid of a confrontation, like a member of the Veiled Alliance facing off any other defiler, they should be hurling spells at one another and blasting each other to peices.. though should the Avangion prevail and drive off the dragon, he 'could' use his magic to restore the razed land the dragon defiled.. (though not the razed people :P) since old 2e spells existed that would turn defiled ground into fresh green grass..
Just some thoughts, most of which are repetative..