The actuall version can be found here and a java-based calculator (made by Gab) can be found here.
Partial Armor
Zones: It is assumed that a zone is full covered with one armor part. The zones are:
Head : The head is mainly the head and neck area. (Optional Rule: A helm provides 4 times its actual AC (rounded down) against rolls that confirm critical hits of opponents.)
Right/Left Arm : Left Arm or Right Arm includes forearm, upper arm and shoulder.
Right/Left Leg : Left Leg or Right Leg includes lower leg, knee and thigh.
Upper Torso : Upper Torso includes breast and back.
Lower Torso Lower Torso includes belly and hip.
Material: It is assumed that an armor part is made of one kind of material. The materials are:
Padded: Padded armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Leather: Leather armor parts can be used in every zone.
Studded Leather: Studded leather armor parts can be used in every zone.
Wood: Wooden armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Bark: Armor parts made out of bark can be used in every zone except head.
Shell: Armor parts made out of shell can be used in every zone.
Chitin: Chitin armor parts can be used in every zone.
Bone: Armor parts made out of bone can be used in every zone.
Cord: Cord armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Hide: Hide armor parts can be used in every zone.
Chain: Chain armor parts can be used in every zone. Chain armor parts are made of metal.
Banded: Banded aromr parts can be used in every zone except head. Banded armor parts are made of metal.
Scale: Scale armor parts can be used in every zone except head. Scale armor parts are made of metal.
Splint: Splint armor parts can be used in every zone except head. Splint armor parts are made of metal.
Plate: Plate armor parts can be used in every zone. Plate armor parts are made of metal.
Magic and Psionic Armor Parts: Bonuses on armor parts provided by magic and/psionic are allways integers and are added at last. Only the highest bonus of all zones counts. Armor parts that cover more than one zone and provide any additional bonus other than their armor bonus only provide these bonus(es), if all parts are worn by the same character.
Armor Type: Light, Medium, Heavy
Wether or not the full armor is light, medium or heavy depends on the Total Max,Dex-Bonus, the Total Check-Penalty and the Total Weight of the full armor.
Full Armor: The full armor is the armor with all armor parts of all zones.
Total AC-Bonus: The Total AC-Bonus of the full armor is the sum of the AC-Bonuses of every zone rounded down.
Total Max, Dex-Bonus: The Total Max, Dex-Bonus of the full armor is 10 - the sum of the Max, Dex-Bonuses of every Zone rounded down.
Total Check-Penalty: The Total Check-Penalty of the full armor is sum of the Check-Penalties of every zone rounded up.
Total Spell Failure: The Total Spell Failure of the full armor is the sum of the Spell Failures of every zone rounded up to the next 5 step.
Total Weight: The Total Weight is the sum of all weights of every armor part.
Heavy: A full armor is heavy if the Total Armor Check-Penalty is smaller or equal to -6
Medium: A full armor is medium if:
a) the full armor isn't heavy
b) the Total Max, Dex-Bonus is smaller or equal to 3
c) the Total Check-Penalty is smaller or equal to -4
d) the Total Max, Dex-Bonus is smaller or equal to 4 and the Total Check-Penalty is smaller or equall to -3 and the Total Weight is larger or equal to 25 lb.
Light: A full armor is light if it isn't a heavy or medium armor.
Wow this is really great work Bengeldorn!
I love it, but I can already see people complaining that it is too much math- but who cares!
These are fresh from the oven
Kinda hard to read because of the way you are doing it with the ","'s.
And I'll agree that this is a bit too much math for my tastes, but I like what you are trying to do.
Now if I can just easily convert all the figures to DR since armor in my campaign gives DR and not AC, if very little AC.
Are the ","'s suppose to be "."'s? Cause that's what it looks like they are suppose to be.
Kinda hard to read because of the way you are doing it with the ","'s.
Ah, ok. It's a Europe thing, my bad.
First time I've seen it done that way.
Also there are a few other concerns I have about the system.
1st: the rules for enhancement bonuses. As written now a group of adventurers could find a suit of +4 leather armor and each take a piece of it for their partial armor configuration. Then they would all have an enhancement bonus of +4 on their armor.
I think you should either make the bonus fractional like the other qualities of the armor or actually require the entire suit to be enchanted to gain an enhancement bonus, to avoid this kind of abuse.
2nd: Your system for determining armor type could use a little work. I order to use various specail abilities in the game you need to be wearing a certain level of armor or lower. But, the special abilities would be specifically impaired more by certain pieces depending on their nature. For instance a ranger must be wearing light or medium armor to fight with two-weapons (believe). having heavy armor on both of his arms arms would if thats all he was wearing might only count as light or medium armor, but It would directly interfer with the ability in question. The same thing goes for proficiency in general. I don't think a rouge should be proficient in wearing a couple of pieces of plate mail on his legs even though the penalties/weight etc. add up to suggest light armor, a type with which he is proficient.
I'm not sure how to fix these problems exactly, but they are issues that could use a little work.
Do you have a call shot/attack body part system to go along with this?
Actually, no. The idea behind this, was to have a partial armor system that allows more variation and style. Also I don't think that characters on athas should wear full suit armors, most images I've seen gave me the impression, that partial armor is used and the 2nd edit. also provided a piecemeal armor system. I know there is allready one (somewhere) out there, that is easier to use, but I did't feel quite happy with that one, because you got more penalties than benefits when you choose different types of armor. Of course these are a lot of numbers and it seems that you have to do much maths, but I IMO it isn't that much and I intentionally choosed quarter-steps, so that it shouldn't be too hard to add the numbers. I have to admit though, that the formulars seem very complicated, but after looking over several armors, these have been the "rules" I saw.
I still have a problem with masterwork armor parts, and I'm still not quite sure how to fix that one. If anybody has an idea, I'm happy if he'd share it with me.
Oh and yes, I'm european.
I love it, but I can already see people complaining that it is too much math- but who cares!
Well, this would be very easy to do on a web page... then the math is automatic... I sure I can put this up in a webpage fairly easily.
The reason you ended up with more penalties for having different armor types combined is that they aren't designed to work together. It would be especially unbalancing to have a heavy piece of armor on one leg or arm, but no on the other. I would think that would actually give you a greater penalty to certain things then having it on both limbs. Of course gladiators have extensive training with piecemail armor and can get around these considerations.
I'm not quite sure now, how much the penalty was/is, but I remember that the penalties have been IMO too high. I wanted to make piecemeal armor more attractive as most players (I could even say everyone I know, even if they wouldn't admit it) want to take the best for their character. I know this system isn't very attractive either (maybe even less attractive according all those numbers), but they idea was, that people should think more about their charakter and how he/she looks like than fearing that they would suffer big penalties when they design their character as they imagined. I'm not quite happy with this as it is either (actually, this is a simpler form of what I'm going to use in my campaign), but the main idea is that people should think of the appearance first and not on the stats of their armor (or the penalties if they take piecemeal armor).
Well, this would be very easy to do on a web page... then the math is automatic... I sure I can put this up in a webpage fairly easily.
This is a good idea and I'd like to help you as far as I can.
p.s.: Still looking for a good solution for masterwork armor parts.
Ah, ok. It's a Europe thing, my bad.
First time I've seen it done that way.
LOL! Well yes Nyt, its what the rest of the world does. You know, "rest" as in anything outside of the english-speaking world.
LOL! Well yes Nyt, its what the rest of the world does. You know, "rest" as in anything outside of the english-speaking world.
Touche, though I still prefer using decimals, using commas could get confusing on longer numbers heh.
1,234.56 for example. Would it be 1.234,56 or 1,234,56 for Europeans?
Other than that I love the metric system, heh.
1st: the rules for enhancement bonuses. As written now a group of adventurers could find a suit of +4 leather armor and each take a piece of it for their partial armor configuration. Then they would all have an enhancement bonus of +4 on their armor.
I think you should either make the bonus fractional like the other qualities of the armor or actually require the entire suit to be enchanted to gain an enhancement bonus, to avoid this kind of abuse.
I was thinking about it too, but it would be even more complex... well the rule should be that if if make a parcial armor (paing the full cost) you can use the greater bonus, you would have for exemple a +4 plate helm for 16,000 cp plus the cost of the helm that would give +0,75+4 armor AC bonus. If you take a +4 leather and separate de pieces they would have no enhancemente bonus (it should be like destroing the armor.)
I was thinking about it too, but it would be even more complex... well the rule should be that if if make a parcial armor (paing the full cost) you can use the greater bonus, you would have for exemple a +4 plate helm for 16,000 cp plus the cost of the helm that would give +0,75+4 armor AC bonus. If you take a +4 leather and separate de pieces they would have no enhancemente bonus (it should be like destroing the armor.)
You are right. I edited a lot of times, especially the magic and psionic part and somehow I must have deleted a sentece.
Armor parts that cover more than one zone and provide any additional bonus other than their armor bonus only provide these bonus(es), if all parts are worn by the same character.
Thank you for that...
i also created a sytem earily similar to this one for using partial armour. however i like your ideas on max dex and size catagories i was having trouble with that.
What do you mean with size categories?
Australia, Botswana, Canada (English-speaking), China, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong of the People's Republic of China, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Korea (both North and South), Malaysia, Mexico, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Panama, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States (including insular area of Puerto Rico),
Countries where a comma is used to mark the radix point include:
Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada (French-speaking), Croatia, Cuba, Chile, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Estonia, Faroes, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hungary, Indonesia, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Moldova, Netherlands, Norway, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zimbabwe
Countries where a dot is used to mark the radix point include:
Australia, Botswana, Canada (English-speaking), China, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong of the People's Republic of China, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Korea (both North and South), Malaysia, Mexico, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Panama, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States (including insular area of Puerto Rico),
Countries where a comma is used to mark the radix point include:
Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada (French-speaking), Croatia, Cuba, Chile, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Estonia, Faroes, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hungary, Indonesia, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Moldova, Netherlands, Norway, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zimbabwe
Well of course silly, everyone knows that :D
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/PartialArmor.html
Please check for errors (I think there's an error in your example Bengeldorn); I might have done a couple of mistakes in the data.
I've done a preliminary Javascript program for these rules.
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/PartialArmor.html
Please check for errors (I think there's an error in your example Bengeldorn); I might have done a couple of mistakes in the data.
You are right about my example, I'll change it so it should be correct now.
Here are some things, I noticed:
Head:
- Leather is listed twice, the second Leather should be Chitin (the stats are right for chitin, only the name is wrong)
Total Check Penalty
- -0,75, -0,5 and -0,25 is rounded up to 0 not down to -1 (maybe it's called rounded down, but -1 < 0 that's why IMO it should be called "rounded up"). If you allready used a "round-up"-command/function try a "round-down"-command/function, maybe it solves the problem.
A full leather armor should have follwing final (and actual) stats:
Total AC-Bonus: +2 (+2,25)
Total Max.Dex-Bonus: +6 (+6,5)
Total Check Penalty: 0 (-0,75)
Total Spell-Failure: 10% (10%)
Total Weight: 15 lbs. (15 lbs.)
Total Cost: 10 cp (10 cp)
Type: Light
Maybe I'll find more, but there are a lot of combinations possible.
I'll work on the formatting tomorrow. The results boxes aren't aligned, etc...
As for the enhancement bonus problem. How about enhancement bonuses increasing the AC value of an armor part by its already existing value?
Examples: A plate helm +3 would grant an AC bonus of +3, which is four times the value of a regular plate helm (0.75).
A set of studded leather arms +2 would grant an AC bonus of +3, which is three times the value of regular studded leather arms (1.0 for the pair).
Perhaps a better option would be having enhancement bonuses increase AC based upon a set value for the position of the armor.
For example:
Magic helmets could provide +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic arm armor could provide +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic leg armor could provide +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic torso armor (upper and lower) could provide +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
The problem with the first system is that it provides benefits which scale with the 'weight' of the armor, so light armor users get less from enchanting their armor. The problem with the second is that it ends up with bonuses that are too high: a set of armor +1 would provide a bonus of 2.5 to AC.
I like this system a lot, but one thing bugs me a bit. A full set of plate armor constructed piecemeal via this system only gives a +7 AC bonus, when it should give a +8 AC bonus. Other than that and the enhancement bonus problem, it allows for some very interesting combinations.
As for the enhancement bonus problem. How about enhancement bonuses increasing the AC value of an armor part by its already existing value?
Examples: A plate helm +3 would grant an AC bonus of +3, which is four times the value of a regular plate helm (0.75).
A set of studded leather arms +2 would grant an AC bonus of +3, which is three times the value of regular studded leather arms (1.0 for the pair).
Perhaps a better option would be having enhancement bonuses increase AC based upon a set value for the position of the armor.
For example:
Magic helmets could provide +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic arm armor could provide +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic leg armor could provide +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic torso armor (upper and lower) could provide +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
The problem with the first system is that it provides benefits which scale with the 'weight' of the armor, so light armor users get less from enchanting their armor. The problem with the second is that it ends up with bonuses that are too high: a set of armor +1 would provide a bonus of 2.5 to AC.
Well you are right about that the relation seems to be broken. But the problem I had was, that enhancement bonuses don't stack and I don't like dividing enhancement bonuses. One way you could see it is, that the enchanted armor part spreads it's whole enhancement over your whole body, so that all zones get the same (or the highest) benefit.
But your idea made me think of another one:
Magic helmets provides +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic arm armor provides +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic leg armor provides +.5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic torso armor (upper and lower) provides +.75 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
The total enhancement bonus doesn't exceed the enhancement bonus of the armor part with the highes enhancement bonus. That way, if you have all armor parts with an enhancement bonus of +1, you only get a +1 enhancement bonus instead of the +4.5 enhancement bonus (0.5 (head) + 2
Better, but still not perfect. Under this system, having a +5 helmet, +1 legs, and +1 torso grants a +5 total bonus.
Well, you can allways change the numbers like magic helmets provide 0.25 per enhancement bonus, this way it would be +3 total bonus (3.75 rounded down).
I just took your numbers and added the limit.
If you want to make it realy complicated you could take this one:
head - 5%
each arm - 10%
Upper torso - 30%
lower torso - 25%
each leg - 10%
But that way you'd have to callculate a lot.
Btw. I totaly forgott to reply your comment about the full plate armor. Well I've dropped it ... because if I'd taken it, I'd have to make seperate categories for the half plate and full plate. That is because the full plate has some weird stats (+8,+1,-6,35%) compared to a half plate (+7,+0,-7,40% and same weight!!!).
@Gab: I've made an excel-based callculator. Maybe you're intrested in it so you could see how I callculated it.
Half plate is actually supposed to be a combination of plate and chain armor - whereas full plate has every body part covered by plates, hence the names. Half plate can be simulated in this system using a combination of plate and chain in different zones. I haven't actually done the calculations but I'm sure there's a way.
I'll think about that, but don't expect too much too soon.
I want to use it but will wait till it's 100% and in an easy format like Gab has or an excel spreedsheet that I and my players can use for ease.
Good job guys!
I'll think about that, but don't expect too much too soon.
Simple solution: Increase plate upper torso armor AC value to 1.5. Since the total value of plate armor was already 7.75 AC, this .25 increase bumps it to where it should be.
How about this system for enhancement bonuses:
Magic helmets provide .25 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic arm armor provides .5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic leg armor provides .25 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic torso armor (upper and lower) provides .5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
The total bonus for a suit of piecemeal armor cannot exceed the value of the highest enhancement bonus on any one piece. Helmets, arms, and legs count as having only half their enhancement bonus for this purpose.
For instance, +5 helmet, +1 legs, and +1 torso grants a +2 enhancement bonus overall.
I like the way this system works out. Thoughts, anyone?
Example:
Head +1
Left Arm +2
Right Arm +0
Upper Torso +0
Lower Torso +2
Left Leg +3
Right Leg +0
Total: 8 (divided by 7)
Effective Enhancment: +1
There is still a problem even with this system, and that is that some types of armor don't have parts covering the entire body. The head is uncovered with many armors and a chain shirt doesn't have any seperate parts to break into at all. But thats pretty minor.
Personaly, like I said before I would let the magic of an incomplete suit of armor function, though I might allow it to be much cheaper to enchant a suit that is made of of parts that come from suits that were enchanted.
Simple solution: Increase plate upper torso armor AC value to 1.5. Since the total value of plate armor was already 7.75 AC, this .25 increase bumps it to where it should be.
Actually, it doesn't as the full plate armor has a higher Max.Dex Bonus, a lower Check-Penalty and a lower Spell-Failure. And the price is much higher. I can't see how I could make it work. I'd say a full plate armor can only be used as a full suit...that's why it's full....sorry but I can't see this working out.
How about this system for enhancement bonuses:
Magic helmets provide .25 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic arm armor provides .5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic leg armor provides .25 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
Magic torso armor (upper and lower) provides .5 AC per point of enhancement bonus.
The total bonus for a suit of piecemeal armor cannot exceed the value of the highest enhancement bonus on any one piece. Helmets, arms, and legs count as having only half their enhancement bonus for this purpose.
For instance, +5 helmet, +1 legs, and +1 torso grants a +2 enhancement bonus overall.
I like the way this system works out. Thoughts, anyone?
Seems ok to me, but I'd say that you could use the full bonus with your arms, because you often use your arms (or the weapon in your hand/arm) to deflect attacks, so arms are frequently hit.
Still looking for an idea how to handle masterwork items.
Partial Armor
Zones: It is assumed that a zone is full covered with one armor part. The zones are:
Head : The head is mainly the head and neck area. (Optional Rule: A helm provides 4 times its actual AC (rounded down) against rolls that confirm critical hits of opponents.)
Right/Left Arm : Left Arm or Right Arm includes forearm, upper arm and shoulder.
Right/Left Leg : Left Leg or Right Leg includes lower leg, knee and thigh.
Upper Torso : Upper Torso includes breast and back.
Lower Torso Lower Torso includes belly and hip.
Material: It is assumed that an armor part is made of one kind of material. The materials are:
Banded: Banded aromr parts can be used in every zone except head. Banded armor parts are made of metal.
Bark: Armor parts made out of bark can be used in every zone except head.
Bone: Armor parts made out of bone can be used in every zone.
Chain: Chain armor parts can be used in every zone. Chain armor parts are made of metal.
Chitin: Chitin armor parts can be used in every zone.
Cord: Cord armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Half-Plate: Half-Plate armor parts can be used in every zone except head and legs. Half-Plate armor parts are made of metal.
Hide: Hide armor parts can be used in every zone.
Leather: Leather armor parts can be used in every zone.
Padded: Padded armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Plate: Plate armor parts can be used in every zone. Plate armor parts are made of metal.
Scale: Scale armor parts can be used in every zone except head. Scale armor parts are made of metal.
Shell: Armor parts made out of shell can be used in every zone.
Splint: Splint armor parts can be used in every zone except head. Splint armor parts are made of metal.
Studded Leather: Studded leather armor parts can be used in every zone.
Wood: Wooden armor parts can be used in every zone except head.
Magic and Psionic Armor Parts: Magical or psionical enhancement bonuses on armor parts are calculated seperatly. Following rules apply:
1. The Total Enhacenment Bonus cannot exceed the highest enhancement bonus of any armor part.
2. For the armor parts in the zones head and legs half their enhancement bonus is counted for callculating the highest enhancement bonus.
3. The enhancement bonuses of every zone are added with as follwed:
+ Head (+0.25 AC per enhancement bonus)
+ Each Arm (+0.5 AC per enhancement bonus)
+ Each Leg (+0.25 AC per enhancement bonus)
+ Upper Torso (+0.5 AC per enhancement bonus)
+ Lower Torso (+0.5 AC per enhancement bonus)
4. The Total Enhancement Bonus to AC is an integer (rounded down)
[i]Example:
Head +4, Left Arm +3, Right Arm +1, Left Leg +1, Right Leg +5, Upper Torso +2, Lower Torso +1
(0.25
If I had a package of cookies, I'd give it to ya. For now you'll have to settle for one.
All that really leaves is figuring out pricing for enhancement bonuses and special qualities for armor.
There's still something wrong with the total check-penalty:
Studded Leather should have -1 (-0.5 -0.25 -0.25 -0.25 -0.25 -0.25 = -1.75 >>rounded to -1) not -2.
That was an error in the data. That has been fixed.
I've added the magical bonus part, and updated the data with the new one.
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/PartialArmor.html
That was an error in the data. That has been fixed.
I've added the magical bonus part, and updated the data with the new one.
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/PartialArmor.html
Your plate "helm" costs 866 cp....it should be 886....the rest looks fine so far....great job....
Your plate "helm" costs 866 cp....it should be 886....the rest looks fine so far....great job....
Fixed.
Edit: My falut I meant cord not hide :embarrass
Now if someone would just put it in an excel spreadsheet so I can use it in the game, hehe.
Yeah, nice work Gab. I played with this some earlier today and found it quite useful.
Now if someone would just put it in an excel spreadsheet so I can use it in the game, hehe.
Just save the webpage on your PC.... that's why I use javascript; it works on any OS.
Just save the webpage on your PC.... that's why I use javascript; it works on any OS.
Ah, thanks.
I should have thought of that. :embarrass
Now if I can just easily convert all the figures to DR since armor in my campaign gives DR and not AC, if very little AC.
How do you convert to this house rule? Id like to do the same.
Now if I can just easily convert all the figures to DR since armor in my campaign gives DR and not AC, if very little AC.
How do you convert to this house rule? Id like to do the same.
I'd say just take the AC generated by this method, and make it DR. That's more or less the house rule I've done for my campaigns' armor. Heavy armor doesn't make you harder to hit -- it makes you harder to be damaged. The rendition of the rules that's in Unearthed Arcana more or less sucks, in my opinion. I use the Armor as Damage Reduction method used in the Star Wars d20 rules.
Touche, though I still prefer using decimals, using commas could get confusing on longer numbers heh.
1,234.56 for example. Would it be 1.234,56 or 1,234,56 for Europeans?
Other than that I love the metric system, heh.
it would be 1.234,56 -- and it's not because of the metric system. It's just how a number of countries represent their decimal notation. And yes, it is decimal notation, with a comma as the decimal point, and periods as the thousands markers.
How do you convert to this house rule? Id like to do the same.
I just do a direct conversion 1 for 1. Though I think Iron Heroes does it a bit differently and need to look at that.
UA does it differently too, but I don't like the way they do it.
I just do a direct conversion 1 for 1. Though I think Iron Heroes does it a bit differently and need to look at that.
UA does it differently too, but I don't like the way they do it.
I like the Iron Hero's method the best. The DR granted from armor is assigned a die type, so a particular type of light armor might have 1d2 DR, and a heavy armor might have 1d8 DR. A fixed DR method can unbalance the game, in that a finesse multiple strike character is at a much greater disadvantage then a one hit power attack style character.
For instance a character who has four attacks from greater two weapon fighting who deals 1d6+4 damage on each strike (a decent amount of damage for four attacks), attacking someone with a fixed DR 5 does any where from 0-5 damage per attack. Whereas a character wielding a two-handed weapon with two attacks that deals 2d6+6 damage is less effected by the DR 5 because he still deals 3-13 damage per attack.
However, there is a downfall to this theory of pure damage reduction. While adamantine is not common to say the least, how would that fit into the campaign if it was introduced...then another theory comes into mind
You have a 12th lvl gladiator, and he can hit anything under the sun, but he probably won't be able to damage it...
Then the second theory...how woudl you work a creatures natural armor into this...iron heroes it says it is actually armor class...what do you think?
Third, what about the defense system, you should incorperate a defense system if your going to use armor as damage reduction.
Now if i was going to convert the system (which i probably am because i like the system) is not the issue with the damage reduction (if you do it iron heroes style) until you take into consideration the fact of magic items in this. I would just do...lets say you wear leather armor which is 1d2...and it has a +1 net enhancement (thanks to this system...i still didn't see how you convert cost though...perhaps i just overlooked it)i would say simply 1d2+1 is my dr so 2-3 for +1 magic leather...not too bad
thoughts about defense?...well you could do it the unearthed arcana way...or attempt to do it the iron heroes way...iron heroes however, does not have much variation, and most of them are 15 or 17 by 20th lvl You could also do it the d20modern way...but...who knows
....the d20modern way would be labelling ac for every class that you come by...true it would be better...but that's a lot of work...i'll be working on a system however and i'll get back to you soon
Iron heroes does have a good system with their low magic and such. You could easily introduce this into your campaign...hell you could even host an iron heroes campaign in darksun (the the mages of course).
However, there is a downfall to this theory of pure damage reduction. While adamantine is not common to say the least, how would that fit into the campaign if it was introduced...then another theory comes into mind
You have a 12th lvl gladiator, and he can hit anything under the sun, but he probably won't be able to damage it...
Then the second theory...how woudl you work a creatures natural armor into this...iron heroes it says it is actually armor class...what do you think?
Third, what about the defense system, you should incorperate a defense system if your going to use armor as damage reduction.
Now if i was going to convert the system (which i probably am because i like the system) is not the issue with the damage reduction (if you do it iron heroes style) until you take into consideration the fact of magic items in this. I would just do...lets say you wear leather armor which is 1d2...and it has a +1 net enhancement (thanks to this system...i still didn't see how you convert cost though...perhaps i just overlooked it)i would say simply 1d2+1 is my dr so 2-3 for +1 magic leather...not too bad
thoughts about defense?...well you could do it the unearthed arcana way...or attempt to do it the iron heroes way...iron heroes however, does not have much variation, and most of them are 15 or 17 by 20th lvl You could also do it the d20modern way...but...who knows
....the d20modern way would be labelling ac for every class that you come by...true it would be better...but that's a lot of work...i'll be working on a system however and i'll get back to you soon
Actually, I use the Unearthed Arcana defenses.... however I'm probably gonna rework them to be closer to how Star Wars d20 does it -- because I just like how it all works together in Star Wars. Defense Bonus, Armor Damage Reduction, and Wounds/Vitality system. Together, these things make for a more realistic in some respects, and cinematic in many more respects, take on combat. People can potentially die in a single hit, armor doesn't make you any harder to hit (actually, with the Dex modifier reduction, it makes you easier to hit), with the main thing that makes you harder to hit being experience (class Damage Reduction). They work so beautifully together.
I like the Iron Hero's method the best. The DR granted from armor is assigned a die type, so a particular type of light armor might have 1d2 DR, and a heavy armor might have 1d8 DR. A fixed DR method can unbalance the game, in that a finesse multiple strike character is at a much greater disadvantage then a one hit power attack style character.
Good point. I will probably switch to that now that I know how it works. I remember reading up on it at one time, or wanting to once I realized that they did it differently.
But yeah, you are bringing up an issue I was seeing eventually going to happen and wasn't sure how to resolve it.
Fixed = simple. And does not unbalance when you group it together with wound/vitality system, and other goodies derived from Star Wars d20 to make the game actually flow pretty quickly.
The class bonus just gives back what armor would add to AC and then some.
And it's been awhile since I've read all those rules since I've decided to use them, but I don't recall it still not having the issue Rhul-thaun brought up, unless of course I am forgetting something and DR only applies to wound points and not vitality points.
The class bonus just gives back what armor would add to AC and then some.
And it's been awhile since I've read all those rules since I've decided to use them, but I don't recall it still not having the issue Rhul-thaun brought up, unless of course I am forgetting something and DR only applies to wound points and not vitality points.
Actually it has to do more with the fact that a critical has nothing to do with Vitality and everything to do with wounds. Plus, the fact that not *all* of the bonuses from Armor Class become Armor Damage Reduction -- only the bonus from Armor itself (and not shields), plus the bonus from Natural Armor. Everything else basically gets included into Defense Bonus (including magical enhancement bonuses, i.e. the +1, +2, etc. you get when making magical armor). It's a minor distinction that makes for a rather good-functioning system -- I've run games with this set up before, and it works. Sure, people in heavy armor end up being very hard to kill with melee hits.... but seriously, shouldn't that be the point? And you can always set up things to get past the Damage Reduction... like for instance... let maces/blunt damage be able to inflict more against plate armor, or let edged/piercing be able to inflict more against leather...
Of course, part of what helps my Dark Sun campaigns in this regard is.... people aren't generally wandering around in heavy armor all the time. Something about being in a close-fitting enclosed object in the desert that makes for modifiers to how I handle temperature effects for such individuals (real easy to overheat). My players usually are somewhere around the light to medium armors at best. This proposed piecemeal system is even better, because then it allows for even more freedom for my players to pick & choose parts.
And yes, I've been planning on actually defining a chart for what each kind of armor affects a person's temperature effects -- rather than the ad hoc way I've been handling it in my games for some time. The heavier the armor, the hotter it is during the day, certain materials are just a totally bad choice to wear (metal armor comes to mind) as it increases this considerably as well. Armor that is light, and breathes, that's the optimal kind for surviving a desert climate -- and no matter what you do to modify it, certain materials are just totally crazy to have for armor in a desert. I want to make sure that my players, even if they miraculously had found a suit of full plate metal armor, they'd not want to wear it, because basically they would be putting on an oven.
Sure, people in heavy armor end up being very hard to kill with melee hits.... but seriously, shouldn't that be the point?
Yeah, but there's making a point and then there's making it *too* difficult. and I think the pure 1 for 1 system makes things *too* difficult and have been pondering a way to fix this. Iron Heroes just gave me a way to do that.
And you can always set up things to get past the Damage Reduction... like for instance... let maces/blunt damage be able to inflict more against plate armor, or let edged/piercing be able to inflict more against leather...
Yeah, I've been thinking of how to incorporate this from 2e into a 3e DR system, good idea.
And yes, I've been planning on actually defining a chart for what each kind of armor affects a person's temperature effects -- rather than the ad hoc way I've been handling it in my games for some time. The heavier the armor, the hotter it is during the day, certain materials are just a totally bad choice to wear (metal armor comes to mind) as it increases this considerably as well. Armor that is light, and breathes, that's the optimal kind for surviving a desert climate -- and no matter what you do to modify it, certain materials are just totally crazy to have for armor in a desert. I want to make sure that my players, even if they miraculously had found a suit of full plate metal armor, they'd not want to wear it, because basically they would be putting on an oven.
I wouldn't mind seeing this once you are done with it.
And btw Bengeldorn, still loving how the partial armor rules are looking.
Yeah, but there's making a point and then there's making it *too* difficult. and I think the pure 1 for 1 system makes things *too* difficult and have been pondering a way to fix this. Iron Heroes just gave me a way to do that.
But I don't see how it is "too" difficult. Really. I mean, the most someone can possibly get with pure Armor alone is what.... 10? With Natural Armor.... you're talking about a hell of a lot of Natural Armor to make a difference. Now true, the lower-level people will have a harder time hitting someone in full plate armor (once again, I just don't see full plate-wearing individuals being all that commonplace) -- then again, I start my campaigns at level 4 for Dark Sun, so much of that is already compensated for. At higher levels, the Damage Reduction is nice, but not insurmountable. You can even do fun things like make Sneak Attacks be able to bypass the Armor Damage Reduction (since you are basically aiming for the chinks in the armor) -- the Ranger's bonus to hit/damage for their favored enemies can have the same qualification.
Yeah, I've been thinking of how to incorporate this from 2e into a 3e DR system, good idea.
yea, need to figure out how to tackle that.
I wouldn't mind seeing this once you are done with it.
Well, you know me. I'm an evil miser who never lets you see what I'm working on at all. :P
And btw Bengeldorn, still loving how the partial armor rules are looking.
Agreed. nice job Bengeldorn. Consider it officially "younked" by me
But I don't see how it is "too" difficult. Really. I mean, the most someone can possibly get with pure Armor alone is what.... 10? With Natural Armor.... you're talking about a hell of a lot of Natural Armor to make a difference.
Well, one example comes to mind...Half-giant in just a chain shirt and then Barbarian levels, all that DR stacks. Just starting he is at a DR of 6/-, once he obtains more Barbarian levels that increases, not by much, but it's still a significant increase. This is not taking into account, feats, templates, spells, etc. that will also stack with its existing DR. And that's a pretty tame example, I'm sure someone with far more powergaming skills than myself can come up with something even worse.
With rhul's first example that character will only be dealing 0-4 pts. of damage per strike, and the HG is still in light armor.
I don't know, just seems like too much to me at any level, higher levels will just be making it worse, especially if the weapon damage the PCs have access to isn't scaling right along with it. Dark Sun being a world where you shouldn't be getting a magical or psionic weapon everytime you turn the corner, then that's going to cause some imbalance issues.
I haven't played it out yet, so maybe I am missing something, but this is an issue I was aware would crop up and was actively searching for something to counteract it. Using the old 2e weapon damage rules where certain weapons are ineffective against certain armors might be a better way to go than the random DR thing Iron Heroes does. It's just a matter of implementation and not going too crazy with it. Cool, I've got something new to work on, heh.
Well, you know me. I'm an evil miser who never lets you see what I'm working on at all. :P
;)
If DR still counts with critical hits than the wound/vitality system does nothing to help with this discrepancy.
If DR still counts with critical hits than the wound/vitality system does nothing to help with this discrepancy.
Nope, DR is bypassed in that system if I remember correctly.
Nope, DR is bypassed in that system if I remember correctly.
Pretty certain. a Critical in that system means you've been able to bypass their defenses.
Mind you, the Star Wars d20 system generally has higher damage rolls than D&D 3.5e, so that comes into effect as well.
what about natural armor like the dragons or a crystal spider? would this replace the normal DR?
It would depend. Basically if their normal DR is higher, it applies as long as the opponent doesn't get around the DR somehow (like, for instance, using silver on a werewolf)
It would depend. Basically if their normal DR is higher, it applies as long as the opponent doesn't get around the DR somehow (like, for instance, using silver on a werewolf)
Thanks :D , im going to give it a try.
Point: Armor modifiers for damage types. This might seem like overkill to some, but if you pair this up with penetration rolls then it's not that bad. Some thoughts of mine include the following: armor is resitant to different types of blows on different scales vis. plate mail to slashing. The whole reason this armor was designed was to make blows from a longsword just roll off you. however, it wasn't as protective against peircing (which it was still good for) because you can see in history that it became practically useless once the heavy cross bow came out. Before all they had to do was worry about elite english longbowmen...now, they have to worry about everyone because anybody can fire this as long as they have arms and a trigger finger. Another example of this would be leather and padded armor: offering practically no protection against peircing weapons and i'm glad i stumbled onto these rules and this to present the ideas...see how they fly.
This table goes by : Every 1 point of armor is what the ratio is
I was fiddling around with this for a bit, and here are a few of the combinations I came up with, compared with some of the PhB armors.