Impoverished White Robe - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Impoverished White Robe

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
erudite
Aug 19, 2005 9:05:58 I am just coming up to speed with Dragonlance, and wanted to know from people with a deeper knowledge base, how would White Robes deal with a member who has Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds). And how would other wizards, Red and Black react?

For those of you who might not have that book, the character with the Vow of Poverty feat forsakes material possessions, including magic items, in order to help those more needy, but is also compensated with some benefits, such as deflection bonuses to AC, as they progress in level. For a wizard, it is a suboptimal feat, but it may fit a certain flavor for a particular character.
#2
Charles_Phipps
Aug 19, 2005 12:19:33
I am just coming up to speed with Dragonlance, and wanted to know from people with a deeper knowledge base, how would White Robes deal with a member who has Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds). And how would other wizards, Red and Black react?

For those of you who might not have that book, the character with the Vow of Poverty feat forsakes material possessions, including magic items, in order to help those more needy, but is also compensated with some benefits, such as deflection bonuses to AC, as they progress in level. For a wizard, it is a suboptimal feat, but it may fit a certain flavor for a particular character.

Probably mock him mercilessly or respect the powers granted thereof.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 19, 2005 14:04:54 More than likely only a pretty high level Black Robe (15 on up) would do more than sneer in contempt, and stop to realize the sacrifice or to judge the dedication it took.

Red Robes would probbably be split down the middile, with half seeing the advantages of what your PC has done, and half thinking him foolish or deluded.

Most White Robes would more than likely realize the hardships, and admire the dedication and commitment. Those that didn't are likely to be of a lower level.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 19, 2005 14:16:37 I think that some black robes might take this mage to be a threat, and even some red robes, and act accordingly.
#5
wolf72
Aug 19, 2005 18:23:34 my first thought was that the PC might not be able to continure as a WoHS ... her/his first allegiance was to High Sorcery and Vow of poverty seems to curtail that ability quite a bit

does material posessions (possesions? ... I hate that word!) include:

spellbook?
weapons?
spell components? (there's some pricey spell components out there that might seem a bit extravagant)
a familiar?
#6
erudite
Aug 20, 2005 12:41:33 A good thought. The DM has made the following provisions (this is my character concept here):

Spellbooks - may pay 20 XP for each page of spells recorded. He is allowed basic spellbooks (he has to make them himself...Craft Book). He may also use his body to tattoo spells, which gives him 74 pages not counting his face or scalp. He can also incribe them onto non-magical tokens as well, a staff giving about 9 pages, and a stone 1 page. He will take two levels of Geomancer(CA) to alleviate this problem later on. He may not have any upgrades for his spellbooks, unless they are spells he can cast himself. He plans on using the tatoos as his grimoire, and the basic spellbooks and staff as arcanabula.

Weapons - he carries only a simple staff carved with some spells, and a dagger. He wears a pale blue cloak, some leather trews, and a vest over a simple shirt. The trews are tucked into walking boots. A rucksack is over one shoulder.

Components and Foci - For spell components he can simply spend 1 XP per 5 GP of component(no gold spent). The character needs to only do this for expensive components, since he has the feat Eschew Materials. For foci, they can simply be inexpensive (less than 1 GP) versions, of which he has spent 1 Xp per 5 GP value of the normal version of the focus.

Familiar - he has no familiar (Forlorn flaw from one of the Dragon mags), but will get a celestial familiar with the Celestial Familiar (BoED) feat later on(8th level?). Since it is a small party (only 3 characters, including the mage) I don't have to take Obtain Familiar. The familiar is considered a blessing from Solinari.

Craft Feats - The DM has allowed for the Craft Contingent Spell feat to be used, again by paying an additional 1/5 value of Contingent Spell in XP when creating the Contingent Spell (no gold spent). This is because the spell is not material, and has no traditional value. I am not sure if I would grab this feat, since it is expensive to use this way, but I have the option if I desire. This is the only Crafted item allowed to be used.

Role-playing: I think that all of the input so far is valuable, and will continue discussing this with my DM. I could simply run the character without the VoP stuff, but story-wise it makes for a better character, and more potential for conflict and doubt (for the character AND the player). DL characters should be deep. In any case, while he is serving the cause of magic, no doubt there will be some objection to his actions, increasing as the NPCs alignment drops towards evil. His eschewment of the material will play a BIG part of his Test, as the DM and I have discussed, although I will not know the particulars until then. You can read more about the character below.

Currently Diviner 2 (banned Necromancy) - all wizards are specialists, as per DM. All wizards have the Curse of the Magi as well, as per the optional rule. (To be fair, Sorcerers and Bards must make a Will check vs DC 10 + Spell level or the effect of a Rod of Wonder happens)

Plans to go: Div4/WoHS(white)1/Geometer 2/Divine Oracle 2/Incantator 1+

Will ban Illusions when he enters the Order, and Enchantment when he enters Incantator.

I already have approval on all of the prestige classes.

Snapshot: A formerly spoiled first-born Ergothian noble, who, as he grew up, became a responsible teenager. Now a young adult, with the return of the gods, he started having Solinari-inspired dreams of import, and his eyes were opened to life outside his home. He convinced his brother to switch from mysticism to being a cleric. In a dream he swore to forsake everything but magic, and to He left for the East to find himself, and met up with a myserious wizard who never appears the same way twice. Hiis family wants him to resume his proper responsibilities, and has sent his younger brother to bring him home. His brother knows that if he can't bring his older brother home, the older brother will be disowned and he'll have to return home to fill his older brother's shoes. He wants to be a Knight of Solamnia, so that won't work. The mage knows this, and is trying to think of something to make everyone happy, or at least be honorable.

BTW: his other companions are his younger brother, Cleric 2(Kiri-Jolith) who wants to be a Squire of the Crown, and a Kendermaid Rogue 2 who wants to learn magic (!). The Kenderplayer (my wife) promises me that she will get me to teach her magic, or she'll learn on her own. Either prospect is unsettling, especially if you consider that the mage considers primal sorcery to be WRONG, and thinks that either you convert renegades to taking the Test and being part of the Order, or neutralize them in some manner. Down the road, it may mean having this kender take the Test (and most likely die, or come out very, very un-kenderish) or become a sorcerer or bard, and become an opponent who seeks to unbalance Krynn with Chaos-tainted energy. Gotta love these situations!

I'm sure, aside from the Key of Destiny (which we will go through), much animosity towards his choices in lifestyle will make for interesting role-playing.
#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 21, 2005 23:58:57 Raistlin himself disdained the use of magical trinkets, preferring the use of actual spells over items that create those spells effects. The only magic items he really ever uses are the Bloodstone amulet (taken from Fistandantilus), the Staff of Magius, and the Dagger of Magius. So it isn't all that unusual for a wizard (and other classes) to forsake the use of magical items. The real question is "What does a 15th level wizard wear under his robes???" Answer: Anything he wants.
#8
kalanth
Aug 22, 2005 0:38:57 With the way High Sorcery works, putting magic above all else, I would take the idea that a person with the Vow of Poverty would be considered a threat. The white robes would bring the person in to council them and warn them of their dangerous ground in respect to becomming a renegade, while the Red would observe and act accordingly, and the Blacks would label him/her a renegade. I definetly see Vow of Poverty as a threat to the orders ways, and would have to place the mage on trial at the very least, to determine if they would be aloud to continue practicing the arcane arts as a WoHS.

Now, if it was a vow of non-violence or vow of peace, that would be completly different, but this is a very grey area because of the "Magic before all," rule.
#9
zombiegleemax
Aug 22, 2005 7:21:23 What an interesting conflict this would make for your character's Test of High Sorcery! Remember, as part of the WoHS prestige class, the player gets a free magic item! This player, clearly, can not accept this gift from the conclave. Does he choose the path of poverty, placing it higher than his dedication to magic and possibly insulting the conclave, or does he forsake his vow for the free phat lewt (tm)?

This could result in some cool in-game type things. Justarius was essentially hobbled by the wizards because his physical prowess put him at odds with his study of magic. Perhaps this character's punishment could be some sort of deformity that would make people think he was more wealthy than he actually was: a platinum tint to his skin, silver teeth, gemstones for eyes.

Either that, or in their rage, the Conclave decides that if he wants to be so beggarly he might as well have a disease, too, like leprosy. He wouldn't actually have leprosy, but instead merely look as though he did, and most people would want to give him a wide berth.

Anyway, I think this is a pretty cool concept, and as long as his vow of poverty was sworn to Solinari, I don't think the conclave would have TOO much of a problem with it, as long as it didn't get in the way of his studies. My guess is that they'd probably be more insulted by the character's refusal of the magical gift that they are giving him.
#10
kalthandrix
Aug 22, 2005 10:38:41 Personally I do not see taking the Vow of Poverty as a huge issue- nor something the a majority of the Conclave would have problems with.

Personally, I think that the idea of the Vow is cool for NPC's, but a real pain and hinderence for PC's.

As for the whole regenagade issue- I do not see how they would be made out to be a renegade- they are still part of the Order and there is nothing that requires a wizard to accumulate wealth and items of power. If anything, the mage who took the vow would most likely be looked down upon by the Red and Black robes (or as an easy mark for the latter to take out) and the white would most likely lend the vowed mage a helping hand- but not too much due to the fact that the vow was their choice.

The item received from the test would most likely would not cause a problem. I mean the Order would know that the testing mage had taken a Vow of Poverty- if they do not then there is a problem with their intelligence gathering activities with regard to those they invite to Test.

And why would the vow taker be punished for not allowing money and personal property to effect their lives? If anything this would show the Conclave that the mage who has taken the vow is very dedicated to the Art- how would it be a show a pride to dress is plain clothing and own nothing.

It is really a show of humility and the depth of the person's character. The Vow of Poverty is not something that is taken for the benefits- the Vow is taken because that person wants to help his fellow man and is above the need of hoarding riches that could better be served by helping those who are suffering and need help.
#11
aliothefool
Aug 22, 2005 12:41:05 I agree with Kalthandrix. I don't see this as a threat to the orders. He may be disdained by his peers, but I would assume as long as he shows up to Conclaves at least bathed and in clean clothes, why would they disallow it?

I will admit, I am not familiar with a vow of poverty (is it a feat? or simply just a spice addition?), but just from what I am assuming, it doesn't make sense for it to affect him negatively, beyond the obvious, of course.
#12
zombiegleemax
Aug 22, 2005 19:02:01
Raistlin himself disdained the use of magical trinkets, preferring the use of actual spells over items that create those spells effects. The only magic items he really ever uses are the Bloodstone amulet (taken from Fistandantilus), the Staff of Magius, and the Dagger of Magius. So it isn't all that unusual for a wizard (and other classes) to forsake the use of magical items. The real question is "What does a 15th level wizard wear under his robes???" Answer: Anything he wants.

Ok, I know that Koranith posted this a little while ago but I just have to mention that Raistlin may not have used magical trinkets, but he hardly needed them, may I remind you that Raistlin was able to defeat every one of the gods nearly single handedly, A feat that even the great Chaos with his demonic army and all his godly powers couldn't do.

If it weren't for Caramon going back and showing his brother what would happen if he defeated the gods then Dragon Lance right now would be very boring.

Who wants to read about a wast land?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 erudite Aug 19, 2005 9:05:58	I am just coming up to speed with Dragonlance, and wanted to know from people with a deeper knowledge base, how would White Robes deal with a member who has Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds). And how would other wizards, Red and Black react? For those of you who might not have that book, the character with the Vow of Poverty feat forsakes material possessions, including magic items, in order to help those more needy, but is also compensated with some benefits, such as deflection bonuses to AC, as they progress in level. For a wizard, it is a suboptimal feat, but it may fit a certain flavor for a particular character.
#2 Charles_Phipps Aug 19, 2005 12:19:33	I am just coming up to speed with Dragonlance, and wanted to know from people with a deeper knowledge base, how would White Robes deal with a member who has Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds). And how would other wizards, Red and Black react? For those of you who might not have that book, the character with the Vow of Poverty feat forsakes material possessions, including magic items, in order to help those more needy, but is also compensated with some benefits, such as deflection bonuses to AC, as they progress in level. For a wizard, it is a suboptimal feat, but it may fit a certain flavor for a particular character. Probably mock him mercilessly or respect the powers granted thereof.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 19, 2005 14:04:54	More than likely only a pretty high level Black Robe (15 on up) would do more than sneer in contempt, and stop to realize the sacrifice or to judge the dedication it took. Red Robes would probbably be split down the middile, with half seeing the advantages of what your PC has done, and half thinking him foolish or deluded. Most White Robes would more than likely realize the hardships, and admire the dedication and commitment. Those that didn't are likely to be of a lower level.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 19, 2005 14:16:37	I think that some black robes might take this mage to be a threat, and even some red robes, and act accordingly.
#5 wolf72 Aug 19, 2005 18:23:34	my first thought was that the PC might not be able to continure as a WoHS ... her/his first allegiance was to High Sorcery and Vow of poverty seems to curtail that ability quite a bit does material posessions (possesions? ... I hate that word!) include: spellbook? weapons? spell components? (there's some pricey spell components out there that might seem a bit extravagant) a familiar?
#6 erudite Aug 20, 2005 12:41:33	A good thought. The DM has made the following provisions (this is my character concept here): Spellbooks - may pay 20 XP for each page of spells recorded. He is allowed basic spellbooks (he has to make them himself...Craft Book). He may also use his body to tattoo spells, which gives him 74 pages not counting his face or scalp. He can also incribe them onto non-magical tokens as well, a staff giving about 9 pages, and a stone 1 page. He will take two levels of Geomancer(CA) to alleviate this problem later on. He may not have any upgrades for his spellbooks, unless they are spells he can cast himself. He plans on using the tatoos as his grimoire, and the basic spellbooks and staff as arcanabula. Weapons - he carries only a simple staff carved with some spells, and a dagger. He wears a pale blue cloak, some leather trews, and a vest over a simple shirt. The trews are tucked into walking boots. A rucksack is over one shoulder. Components and Foci - For spell components he can simply spend 1 XP per 5 GP of component(no gold spent). The character needs to only do this for expensive components, since he has the feat Eschew Materials. For foci, they can simply be inexpensive (less than 1 GP) versions, of which he has spent 1 Xp per 5 GP value of the normal version of the focus. Familiar - he has no familiar (Forlorn flaw from one of the Dragon mags), but will get a celestial familiar with the Celestial Familiar (BoED) feat later on(8th level?). Since it is a small party (only 3 characters, including the mage) I don't have to take Obtain Familiar. The familiar is considered a blessing from Solinari. Craft Feats - The DM has allowed for the Craft Contingent Spell feat to be used, again by paying an additional 1/5 value of Contingent Spell in XP when creating the Contingent Spell (no gold spent). This is because the spell is not material, and has no traditional value. I am not sure if I would grab this feat, since it is expensive to use this way, but I have the option if I desire. This is the only Crafted item allowed to be used. Role-playing: I think that all of the input so far is valuable, and will continue discussing this with my DM. I could simply run the character without the VoP stuff, but story-wise it makes for a better character, and more potential for conflict and doubt (for the character AND the player). DL characters should be deep. In any case, while he is serving the cause of magic, no doubt there will be some objection to his actions, increasing as the NPCs alignment drops towards evil. His eschewment of the material will play a BIG part of his Test, as the DM and I have discussed, although I will not know the particulars until then. You can read more about the character below. Currently Diviner 2 (banned Necromancy) - all wizards are specialists, as per DM. All wizards have the Curse of the Magi as well, as per the optional rule. (To be fair, Sorcerers and Bards must make a Will check vs DC 10 + Spell level or the effect of a Rod of Wonder happens) Plans to go: Div4/WoHS(white)1/Geometer 2/Divine Oracle 2/Incantator 1+ Will ban Illusions when he enters the Order, and Enchantment when he enters Incantator. I already have approval on all of the prestige classes. Snapshot: A formerly spoiled first-born Ergothian noble, who, as he grew up, became a responsible teenager. Now a young adult, with the return of the gods, he started having Solinari-inspired dreams of import, and his eyes were opened to life outside his home. He convinced his brother to switch from mysticism to being a cleric. In a dream he swore to forsake everything but magic, and to He left for the East to find himself, and met up with a myserious wizard who never appears the same way twice. Hiis family wants him to resume his proper responsibilities, and has sent his younger brother to bring him home. His brother knows that if he can't bring his older brother home, the older brother will be disowned and he'll have to return home to fill his older brother's shoes. He wants to be a Knight of Solamnia, so that won't work. The mage knows this, and is trying to think of something to make everyone happy, or at least be honorable. BTW: his other companions are his younger brother, Cleric 2(Kiri-Jolith) who wants to be a Squire of the Crown, and a Kendermaid Rogue 2 who wants to learn magic (!). The Kenderplayer (my wife) promises me that she will get me to teach her magic, or she'll learn on her own. Either prospect is unsettling, especially if you consider that the mage considers primal sorcery to be WRONG, and thinks that either you convert renegades to taking the Test and being part of the Order, or neutralize them in some manner. Down the road, it may mean having this kender take the Test (and most likely die, or come out very, very un-kenderish) or become a sorcerer or bard, and become an opponent who seeks to unbalance Krynn with Chaos-tainted energy. Gotta love these situations! I'm sure, aside from the Key of Destiny (which we will go through), much animosity towards his choices in lifestyle will make for interesting role-playing.
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 21, 2005 23:58:57	Raistlin himself disdained the use of magical trinkets, preferring the use of actual spells over items that create those spells effects. The only magic items he really ever uses are the Bloodstone amulet (taken from Fistandantilus), the Staff of Magius, and the Dagger of Magius. So it isn't all that unusual for a wizard (and other classes) to forsake the use of magical items. The real question is "What does a 15th level wizard wear under his robes???" Answer: Anything he wants.
#8 kalanth Aug 22, 2005 0:38:57	With the way High Sorcery works, putting magic above all else, I would take the idea that a person with the Vow of Poverty would be considered a threat. The white robes would bring the person in to council them and warn them of their dangerous ground in respect to becomming a renegade, while the Red would observe and act accordingly, and the Blacks would label him/her a renegade. I definetly see Vow of Poverty as a threat to the orders ways, and would have to place the mage on trial at the very least, to determine if they would be aloud to continue practicing the arcane arts as a WoHS. Now, if it was a vow of non-violence or vow of peace, that would be completly different, but this is a very grey area because of the "Magic before all," rule.
#9 zombiegleemax Aug 22, 2005 7:21:23	What an interesting conflict this would make for your character's Test of High Sorcery! Remember, as part of the WoHS prestige class, the player gets a free magic item! This player, clearly, can not accept this gift from the conclave. Does he choose the path of poverty, placing it higher than his dedication to magic and possibly insulting the conclave, or does he forsake his vow for the free phat lewt (tm)? This could result in some cool in-game type things. Justarius was essentially hobbled by the wizards because his physical prowess put him at odds with his study of magic. Perhaps this character's punishment could be some sort of deformity that would make people think he was more wealthy than he actually was: a platinum tint to his skin, silver teeth, gemstones for eyes. Either that, or in their rage, the Conclave decides that if he wants to be so beggarly he might as well have a disease, too, like leprosy. He wouldn't actually have leprosy, but instead merely look as though he did, and most people would want to give him a wide berth. Anyway, I think this is a pretty cool concept, and as long as his vow of poverty was sworn to Solinari, I don't think the conclave would have TOO much of a problem with it, as long as it didn't get in the way of his studies. My guess is that they'd probably be more insulted by the character's refusal of the magical gift that they are giving him.
#10 kalthandrix Aug 22, 2005 10:38:41	Personally I do not see taking the Vow of Poverty as a huge issue- nor something the a majority of the Conclave would have problems with. Personally, I think that the idea of the Vow is cool for NPC's, but a real pain and hinderence for PC's. As for the whole regenagade issue- I do not see how they would be made out to be a renegade- they are still part of the Order and there is nothing that requires a wizard to accumulate wealth and items of power. If anything, the mage who took the vow would most likely be looked down upon by the Red and Black robes (or as an easy mark for the latter to take out) and the white would most likely lend the vowed mage a helping hand- but not too much due to the fact that the vow was their choice. The item received from the test would most likely would not cause a problem. I mean the Order would know that the testing mage had taken a Vow of Poverty- if they do not then there is a problem with their intelligence gathering activities with regard to those they invite to Test. And why would the vow taker be punished for not allowing money and personal property to effect their lives? If anything this would show the Conclave that the mage who has taken the vow is very dedicated to the Art- how would it be a show a pride to dress is plain clothing and own nothing. It is really a show of humility and the depth of the person's character. The Vow of Poverty is not something that is taken for the benefits- the Vow is taken because that person wants to help his fellow man and is above the need of hoarding riches that could better be served by helping those who are suffering and need help.
#11 aliothefool Aug 22, 2005 12:41:05	I agree with Kalthandrix. I don't see this as a threat to the orders. He may be disdained by his peers, but I would assume as long as he shows up to Conclaves at least bathed and in clean clothes, why would they disallow it? I will admit, I am not familiar with a vow of poverty (is it a feat? or simply just a spice addition?), but just from what I am assuming, it doesn't make sense for it to affect him negatively, beyond the obvious, of course.
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 22, 2005 19:02:01	Raistlin himself disdained the use of magical trinkets, preferring the use of actual spells over items that create those spells effects. The only magic items he really ever uses are the Bloodstone amulet (taken from Fistandantilus), the Staff of Magius, and the Dagger of Magius. So it isn't all that unusual for a wizard (and other classes) to forsake the use of magical items. The real question is "What does a 15th level wizard wear under his robes???" Answer: Anything he wants. Ok, I know that Koranith posted this a little while ago but I just have to mention that Raistlin may not have used magical trinkets, but he hardly needed them, may I remind you that Raistlin was able to defeat every one of the gods nearly single handedly, A feat that even the great Chaos with his demonic army and all his godly powers couldn't do. If it weren't for Caramon going back and showing his brother what would happen if he defeated the gods then Dragon Lance right now would be very boring. Who wants to read about a wast land?