Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Aug 22, 2005 22:12:17	Is the gray just a natural anomaly around athas (buffer between the ethereal and astral planes) or is perhaps the result of Athas being in a closed sphere? I prefer the latter And also, what would you think about God clerics on Athas? Yes, I know Athas doesn't have any (well, they don't exist in the PM plane in thier true forms anyway in 2E) but what would you do with a god cleric who came to Athas from somewhere else. There is mentioned a fire giant god cleric from another world in city by the silt sea, who while not completely cut off from his god, can get up to 2nd level spells from him, I'd say even this would be a no-no if I was a ds dm, otherwise there could be gods on athas who were heard of from visitors from elsewhere who could then be worshipped by athasians- and thus Athas would have gods. Either that or rule people simply can't become god clerics on Athas even if they hear of a god from someone from somewhere else. I don't care if elemental clerics can be much more powerful, I don't want god clerics on Athas.
#2 Pennarin Aug 22, 2005 22:28:33	See how fun DS is with its inconsistencies! :D Makes you want to puke doesn't it. Some people have suggested that, since that cleric worshiped a god of fire, kept some of his power since his worship was automatically carried over to the elemental plane of fire once on Athas.
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 23, 2005 0:23:28	Is the gray just a natural anomaly around athas (buffer between the ethereal and astral planes) or is perhaps the result of Athas being in a closed sphere? I prefer the latter And also, what would you think about God clerics on Athas? Yes, I know Athas doesn't have any (well, they don't exist in the PM plane in thier true forms anyway in 2E) but what would you do with a god cleric who came to Athas from somewhere else. There is mentioned a fire giant god cleric from another world in city by the silt sea, who while not completely cut off from his god, can get up to 2nd level spells from him, I'd say even this would be a no-no if I was a ds dm, otherwise there could be gods on athas who were heard of from visitors from elsewhere who could then be worshipped by athasians- and thus Athas would have gods. Either that or rule people simply can't become god clerics on Athas even if they hear of a god from someone from somewhere else. I don't care if elemental clerics can be much more powerful, I don't want god clerics on Athas. A lot of this will be explained in Dregoth Ascending. However, I rule that there can't be God clerics -- because the Gray won't let any divine power from the outer planes through, just like no souls can go through the Gray to the outer planes.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 23, 2005 1:30:33	My take on "connectivity" issues:
#5 Kamelion Aug 23, 2005 5:00:12	There is mentioned a fire giant god cleric from another world in city by the silt sea, who while not completely cut off from his god, can get up to 2nd level spells from him, I'd say even this would be a no-no if I was a ds dm, otherwise there could be gods on athas who were heard of from visitors from elsewhere who could then be worshipped by athasians- and thus Athas would have gods. Under 1e and 2e rules, a cleric's 1st and 2nd-level spells came from his own faith and devotion and were not directly granted by his deity. Clerics who were cut off from their deity could still cast spells of these levels. (In fact, only a cleric's highest level spells came directly from his deity - the others came from servants and intermediaries of the deity).
#6 Sysane Aug 23, 2005 8:12:02	The 2e explanation is that Athas has no Astral Conduits. Those being strands of energy that let deities receive power from their worshippers and in turn channel spell energy to their clerics. The Gray prevents these Conduits from entering Athas' surrounding Astral Plane/Space.
#7 ruhl-than_sage Aug 23, 2005 9:50:15	Under 1e and 2e rules, a cleric's 1st and 2nd-level spells came from his own faith and devotion and were not directly granted by his deity. Clerics who were cut off from their deity could still cast spells of these levels. (In fact, only a cleric's highest level spells came directly from his deity - the others came from servants and intermediaries of the deity). On those grounds, any character with sufficient devotion to a diety (real or false) should be able to cast low level clerical spells. That could perhaps go a ways toward explaining all the dead religions of athas. Though, I have a more interesting take on them: I believe that the knowledge of Living Vortexes used to be more widespread and that their used to be a lot more of them. Many powerfull leaders in the past were able to connect to these conduates and grant spells to their followers like the SKs of today do, acting as the gods of their people. Once the clensing wars were over however, the "gods" and conduates had been destroyed except for the SKs' (and possibly a few in other parts of the world not yet detailed).
#8 Sysane Aug 23, 2005 10:17:33	On those grounds, any character with sufficient devotion to a diety (real or false) should be able to cast low level clerical spells. That could perhaps go a ways toward explaining all the dead religions of athas. Though, I have a more interesting take on them: I believe that the knowledge of Living Vortexes used to be more widespread and that their used to be a lot more of them. Many powerfull leaders in the past were able to connect to these conduates and grant spells to their followers like the SKs of today do, acting as the gods of their people. Once the clensing wars were over however, the "gods" and conduates had been destroyed except for the SKs' (and possibly a few in other parts of the world not yet detailed). Thats a unique theory. It would be great if you subscribe that the Living Vortices were life shaped creatures and that the ancient rhulisti used them to produce minor clerical acts like the ones preformed by the elemental clerics of the Blue Age. It would also support why there were so many "false regions" during the Green Age when there were full blown elemental clerics to compete with. Why worship a god that grants no spells when you can worship the elements? This would explain that.
#9 Kamelion Aug 23, 2005 12:18:01	On those grounds, any character with sufficient devotion to a diety (real or false) should be able to cast low level clerical spells. Well, assuming that you port those rules from 1e/2e over into 3e, then yes. I believe that the knowledge of Living Vortexes used to be more widespread and that their used to be a lot more of them. Many powerfull leaders in the past were able to connect to these conduates and grant spells to their followers like the SKs of today do, acting as the gods of their people. Once the clensing wars were over however, the "gods" and conduates had been destroyed except for the SKs' (and possibly a few in other parts of the world not yet detailed). On a related note, there is an interesting reference in Terrors of the Deadlands under the writeup for the raaig: Over all ruled two kings, one a winged halfling and the other the greatest kreen Nevalaeg could imagine. Both were mindbenders beyond peer, and together they contrived to grant spells to those that served them most directly. Interesting on a number of levels, not least the reference to the two kings granting spells to their followers.
#10 ruhl-than_sage Aug 23, 2005 16:08:29	On a related note, there is an interesting reference in Terrors of the Deadlands under the writeup for the raaig: Over all ruled two kings, one a winged halfling and the other the greatest kreen Nevalaeg could imagine. Both were mindbenders beyond peer, and together they contrived to grant spells to those that served them most directly. Interesting on a number of levels, not least the reference to the two kings granting spells to their followers. I'm assuming you mean Secrets of the Deadlands. Was that written by an official source or did one of our guys write that?
#11 ruhl-than_sage Aug 23, 2005 16:16:12	Thats a unique theory. It would be great if you subscribe that the Living Vortices were life shaped creatures and that the ancient rhulisti used them to produce minor clerical acts like the ones preformed by the elemental clerics of the Blue Age. It would also support why there were so many "false regions" during the Green Age when there were full blown elemental clerics to compete with. Why worship a god that grants no spells when you can worship the elements? This would explain that. The way I look at them they are life-shaped creations and in fact the creations of the Lifebenders. Think about what they do ;) . They grant spells to those that some powerful creature decides, overstepping the authority of the elemental lords. The Living Vortices, whatever the true intention of their creation was, were a tool for gaining clerical power without the need for obessiance to the elements. I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions from this, but I'd like to note the similarity of the Greek lengends of the Gods overthrowing the Titans (which themselves were considered to be tied intimately to the earth, like the elements and spirits of the land.)
#12 squidfur- Aug 23, 2005 18:38:10	I'm assuming you mean Secrets of the Deadlands. Was that written by an official source or did one of our guys write that? No, it is indeed Terrors of the Deadlands he's talkin' about. It's on p.68.
#13 Kamelion Aug 23, 2005 18:38:34	I'm assuming you mean Secrets of the Deadlands. Was that written by an official source or did one of our guys write that? No, I mean Terrors of the Deadlands, under the writeup for the raaig - page 68. I think that Brax wrote that bit.
#14 squidfur- Aug 23, 2005 18:40:34	Ha Ha, beat ya' Kam.
#15 Kamelion Aug 23, 2005 18:45:56	56k dialup purgatory ;)
#16 Mulhull Aug 23, 2005 20:44:37	A lot of this will be explained in Dregoth Ascending. However, I rule that there can't be God clerics -- because the Gray won't let any divine power from the outer planes through, just like no souls can go through the Gray to the outer planes. Actually, some can, according to Thri-Kreen of Athas, who's hell is in that frigid layer of Baator/The Nine Hells, and who's heaven is in the Happy Hunting Grounds/Beastlands, makes you wonder, perhaps conviction/belief somehow has the power to breach the grey and let your soul through.
#17 Mulhull Aug 23, 2005 20:47:38	Under 1e and 2e rules, a cleric's 1st and 2nd-level spells came from his own faith and devotion and were not directly granted by his deity. Clerics who were cut off from their deity could still cast spells of these levels. (In fact, only a cleric's highest level spells came directly from his deity - the others came from servants and intermediaries of the deity). Are you sure about this? I've read the 2E Player's Handbook, I don't recall it saying anything about clerics gaining spells through faith alone, but the 3E one does- it says that clerics can worship a cause- something other than a diety.
#18 Mulhull Aug 23, 2005 20:55:20	Also, what if some avatars of gods tried to conquer Athas or something. I mean the gray is breachable even by mortals, and Athas has no gods of it's own that would protect it, etc. You could rule avatars are utterly powerless of Athas. During the time of troubles on FR you only got spells if you were a certain distance from your avatar god, but I think that was a special case, since then that was the true and only form the god had, and he/she would be completely dead if he/she was killed, instead of just making another avatar. Dragon Kings says that some gods (powers, which in this context I believe is talking about gods, since they are called that sometimes) jealous of the relationship between Athas and the elemental planes, have fabricated living vortices that masquerade as living vortices (or the other way around, can't remember)
#19 ruhl-than_sage Aug 24, 2005 0:07:11	Also, what if some avatars of gods tried to conquer Athas or something. I mean the gray is breachable even by mortals, and Athas has no gods of it's own that would protect it, etc. You could rule avatars are utterly powerless of Athas. Just because mortals can breach the barrier doesn't mean that gods can. For an example of mortals being able travel to somewhere gods can't just look at Sigil the City of Doors. ;)
#20 Kamelion Aug 24, 2005 5:39:52	Are you sure about this? I've read the 2E Player's Handbook, I don't recall it saying anything about clerics gaining spells through faith alone, but the 3E one does- it says that clerics can worship a cause- something other than a diety. Yes, I am sure. It's mentioned in the 1e DMG, 1e D&DG, 2e Spelljammer core set, 2e Planescape and a bunch of other places. If you insist, I will go and get references, but it's a longtime rule D&D rule that no longer applies in 3e.
#21 woobyluv Aug 25, 2005 3:06:05	On those grounds, any character with sufficient devotion to a diety (real or false) should be able to cast low level clerical spells. That could perhaps go a ways toward explaining all the dead religions of athas. Though, I have a more interesting take on them: I believe that the knowledge of Living Vortexes used to be more widespread and that their used to be a lot more of them. Many powerfull leaders in the past were able to connect to these conduates and grant spells to their followers like the SKs of today do, acting as the gods of their people. Once the clensing wars were over however, the "gods" and conduates had been destroyed except for the SKs' (and possibly a few in other parts of the world not yet detailed). Personally I'm of the mind that there are no "Living Vortices" but rather the SK's are linked to the Dark Lens as a result of Rajaat making them into Champions at the Pristine Tower. To me it makes more sense as the Dark Lens draws it immense power from the sun itself and considering its a Major Artifact, this could have been one of Rajaat's intended uses of the Lens. Therefore, in my campaigns, it is possible, albeit unlikely that other SK's can be created in the same manner as the Champions. All it would really take is releasing Rajaat and convincing him to transform you...like I said, not likely...
#22 ruhl-than_sage Aug 25, 2005 9:21:46	Personally I'm of the mind that there are no "Living Vortices" but rather the SK's are linked to the Dark Lens as a result of Rajaat making them into Champions at the Pristine Tower. To me it makes more sense as the Dark Lens draws it immense power from the sun itself and considering its a Major Artifact, this could have been one of Rajaat's intended uses of the Lens. Therefore, in my campaigns, it is possible, albeit unlikely that other SK's can be created in the same manner as the Champions. All it would really take is releasing Rajaat and convincing him to transform you...like I said, not likely... The champions weren't the only ones to every use the dark lens. The halflings that became Shadow Giants and before the champions others probably used it as well, so their is still a window for other being to have gained those abilities. Of course Tithian used the lens, and now he is able to fuel spells through his prison in the cerulean storm. Of course I see that more as just another form of defiling, rather than spells being granted, but it could be interpreted either way ;) . Then their are the dwarven champion featured in the obsidian oracle as well, they had it in their pocession, though I suppose they weren't capable of using it. At the very least I would say that in addition to the champions Rajaat can grants spells to people.