Olman god Chitza-Atlan? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Olman god Chitza-Atlan?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2005 9:04:09 I am trying to gather information on the Olman deities. However, I have been unable to find much information on Chitza-Atlan. While most of the Olman deities are modeled after Mayan/Aztec deities, C. Atlan doesn't seem to have a counterpart. He appears to be a mummified centaur guardian of the underworld. Does anyone have a better description with a little more detail?

Also, what is the Olman underworld like?

Thanks.
#2
ripvanwormer
Aug 26, 2005 10:06:28 From Godchecker.com:

MICTLAN: The Aztec Underworld, ruled over by MICTLANTECUHTLI, the grinning God of Death and his wife MICTECACIHUATL.

The Aztec Underworld was a vast veritable labyrinth of layers and levels which needed looking after by multitudes of ghastly Gods. Most of them with unpronouncable and unspellable names.

Gods of the Underworld were usually depicted in garish colour in two-dimensional form. Three dimensional Gods with those colors would be a bit over the top. But MICTLAN itself is a gloomy, dank and depressing place, full of worms and creepy-crawlies.

Not to mention bones. QUETZALCOATL had a lot of trouble pursuading MICTLANTECUHTLI to give them up for rebirth in the Fifth World.

See also the Wikipedia article.

The closest god I can find to Chitza-Atlan is Xolotl, but I'll keep looking. I'm guessing Chitza's just a minor guardian god, and probably should be represented as a servitor demon instead of as a deity.
#3
ripvanwormer
Aug 26, 2005 11:05:34 Here's a picture of Xibalba, the Maya underworld, with its six overlords. None of them look remotely like mummified centaurs.

Since even 1e Deities & Demigods doesn't have Chitza-Atlan, and neither do the Dictionary of Ancient Deities nor Native American Myth and Legend, I suspect Chitza was just some convincing-looking gobbledegook invented for the tournament module.

My advice is to steal details from an interesting authentic god, like the Maya "God of the Number Zero" or Vukub-Cakix.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 30, 2005 16:58:37
Here's a picture of Xibalba, the Maya underworld, with its six overlords. None of them look remotely like mummified centaurs.

Since even 1e Deities & Demigods doesn't have Chitza-Atlan, and neither do the Dictionary of Ancient Deities nor Native American Myth and Legend, I suspect Chitza was just some convincing-looking gobbledegook invented for the tournament module.

My advice is to steal details from an interesting authentic god, like the Maya "God of the Number Zero" or Vukub-Cakix.

Chitza Atlan sounds like they rammed "Chichen Itza" together with Aztlan. Chichen Itza is a ruined city in Mexico and Aztlan is the mythical birthplace of the Aztec people.
#5
Mortepierre
Aug 31, 2005 2:28:34
I am trying to gather information on the Olman deities

That pantheon is described in the Scarlet Brotherhood (2e) accessory. Not that it was a great description or anything but at least it was a start...
#6
chibirias
Sep 08, 2005 4:53:04
Chitza Atlan sounds like they rammed "Chichen Itza" together with Aztlan. Chichen Itza is a ruined city in Mexico and Aztlan is the mythical birthplace of the Aztec people.

Chichen Itza is alternatively spelled Chitza Itza, with Chichen/Chitza meaning mouth or well, or more figuratively, gate.

Tlan is an Aztec word meaning "place of".

So, literally, Chitza Atlan means, roughly, "Place of Mouths" or "Place of Gates"

Given the description of C-A in C1 tho, I would twist the meaning a little and call him the "Guardian of the Gates". Make him a demigod servant of Camazotz, lord of the Mayan underworld, who is tasked with guarding the gateway between the underworld and the Oerth, as is implied in the module text.

Keep in mind tho, the mummified centaur is not the appearance of C-A, but merely a "sacred offspring" of that entity. See C1 encounter area 49 for confirmation of this.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 10, 2005 13:42:32 Hey folks. I'm pleased (and somewhat surprised) to see discussion of the Olman spreading relatively far. Neat-o. Meme.

I've now forgotten if it was a GreyTalk discussion or something in the GreyChat, but I recall discussing the idea that the mummified centaur seems derivative of the image of Cortez y los conquistadores. C1's authors may have created Chitza-Atlan by imagining the herald of Meso-American death.

I like Chibirias's suggestion to make him a demigod servant of Camazotz.
#8
lincoln_hills
Oct 03, 2005 14:08:00 I find it somehow amusing that we are seriously wondering whether something in an AD&D module was (gasp) made up rather than ported directly from an RL religion. Talk about a reversal of the norm! ;)

There's no indication that Chitza-Atlan is meant to represent a god. Not all of the creepy-crawlies in C1 do, y'know. That big-mouthed giant slug in the lower levels thinks he's all that, but I doubt he's really Apocatequil's brother. Don't say so to his face (or face-like portion), though: he spits.

It seems more likely that Chitza-Atlan is a sort of Cerebus - a guardian, possibly the Oerthly "duplication" of some outer-planar monster that prevents Olman souls from fleeing that place. Manual of the Planes introduced a centauroid demon, the name of which escapes me, who would be perfect to represent the "real" Chitza-Atlan in the Outer Planes.
#9
ripvanwormer
Oct 03, 2005 15:00:20
Manual of the Planes introduced a centauroid demon, the name of which escapes me, who would be perfect to represent the "real" Chitza-Atlan in the Outer Planes.

Armanites, who were actually originally introduced in Planes of Chaos.
#10
lincoln_hills
Oct 05, 2005 13:59:46
Armanites, who were actually originally introduced in Planes of Chaos.

Armanites, thankyewverramucha. They're the ones. And I should have said, "given 3.0 stats," not "introduced." No doubt there's a 3.5 upgrade (complete with 10x10' space) by now.
#11
chatdemon
Oct 22, 2005 14:47:33
I find it somehow amusing that we are seriously wondering whether something in an AD&D module was (gasp) made up rather than ported directly from an RL religion. Talk about a reversal of the norm! ;)

Well, C1 is one of the very few examples of an AD&D module that clearly says "this is the real world material we based this on" in the introduction.

There is a ton of recent discussion and articles related to the Olman on Canonfire, and like others there, I tend to think that using Aztec-Mayan material as a "style sheet" for the Olman is a better course than trying to outright shoehorn those real world cultures into the Amedio setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2005 9:04:09	I am trying to gather information on the Olman deities. However, I have been unable to find much information on Chitza-Atlan. While most of the Olman deities are modeled after Mayan/Aztec deities, C. Atlan doesn't seem to have a counterpart. He appears to be a mummified centaur guardian of the underworld. Does anyone have a better description with a little more detail? Also, what is the Olman underworld like? Thanks.
#2 ripvanwormer Aug 26, 2005 10:06:28	From Godchecker.com: MICTLAN: The Aztec Underworld, ruled over by MICTLANTECUHTLI, the grinning God of Death and his wife MICTECACIHUATL. The Aztec Underworld was a vast veritable labyrinth of layers and levels which needed looking after by multitudes of ghastly Gods. Most of them with unpronouncable and unspellable names. Gods of the Underworld were usually depicted in garish colour in two-dimensional form. Three dimensional Gods with those colors would be a bit over the top. But MICTLAN itself is a gloomy, dank and depressing place, full of worms and creepy-crawlies. Not to mention bones. QUETZALCOATL had a lot of trouble pursuading MICTLANTECUHTLI to give them up for rebirth in the Fifth World. See also the Wikipedia article. The closest god I can find to Chitza-Atlan is Xolotl, but I'll keep looking. I'm guessing Chitza's just a minor guardian god, and probably should be represented as a servitor demon instead of as a deity.
#3 ripvanwormer Aug 26, 2005 11:05:34	Here's a picture of Xibalba, the Maya underworld, with its six overlords. None of them look remotely like mummified centaurs. Since even 1e Deities & Demigods doesn't have Chitza-Atlan, and neither do the Dictionary of Ancient Deities nor Native American Myth and Legend, I suspect Chitza was just some convincing-looking gobbledegook invented for the tournament module. My advice is to steal details from an interesting authentic god, like the Maya "God of the Number Zero" or Vukub-Cakix.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2005 16:58:37	Here's a picture of Xibalba, the Maya underworld, with its six overlords. None of them look remotely like mummified centaurs. Since even 1e Deities & Demigods doesn't have Chitza-Atlan, and neither do the Dictionary of Ancient Deities nor Native American Myth and Legend, I suspect Chitza was just some convincing-looking gobbledegook invented for the tournament module. My advice is to steal details from an interesting authentic god, like the Maya "God of the Number Zero" or Vukub-Cakix. Chitza Atlan sounds like they rammed "Chichen Itza" together with Aztlan. Chichen Itza is a ruined city in Mexico and Aztlan is the mythical birthplace of the Aztec people.
#5 Mortepierre Aug 31, 2005 2:28:34	I am trying to gather information on the Olman deities That pantheon is described in the Scarlet Brotherhood (2e) accessory. Not that it was a great description or anything but at least it was a start...
#6 chibirias Sep 08, 2005 4:53:04	Chitza Atlan sounds like they rammed "Chichen Itza" together with Aztlan. Chichen Itza is a ruined city in Mexico and Aztlan is the mythical birthplace of the Aztec people. Chichen Itza is alternatively spelled Chitza Itza, with Chichen/Chitza meaning mouth or well, or more figuratively, gate. Tlan is an Aztec word meaning "place of". So, literally, Chitza Atlan means, roughly, "Place of Mouths" or "Place of Gates" Given the description of C-A in C1 tho, I would twist the meaning a little and call him the "Guardian of the Gates". Make him a demigod servant of Camazotz, lord of the Mayan underworld, who is tasked with guarding the gateway between the underworld and the Oerth, as is implied in the module text. Keep in mind tho, the mummified centaur is not the appearance of C-A, but merely a "sacred offspring" of that entity. See C1 encounter area 49 for confirmation of this.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2005 13:42:32	Hey folks. I'm pleased (and somewhat surprised) to see discussion of the Olman spreading relatively far. Neat-o. Meme. I've now forgotten if it was a GreyTalk discussion or something in the GreyChat, but I recall discussing the idea that the mummified centaur seems derivative of the image of Cortez y los conquistadores. C1's authors may have created Chitza-Atlan by imagining the herald of Meso-American death. I like Chibirias's suggestion to make him a demigod servant of Camazotz.
#8 lincoln_hills Oct 03, 2005 14:08:00	I find it somehow amusing that we are seriously wondering whether something in an AD&D module was (gasp) made up rather than ported directly from an RL religion. Talk about a reversal of the norm! ;) There's no indication that Chitza-Atlan is meant to represent a god. Not all of the creepy-crawlies in C1 do, y'know. That big-mouthed giant slug in the lower levels thinks he's all that, but I doubt he's really Apocatequil's brother. Don't say so to his face (or face-like portion), though: he spits. It seems more likely that Chitza-Atlan is a sort of Cerebus - a guardian, possibly the Oerthly "duplication" of some outer-planar monster that prevents Olman souls from fleeing that place. Manual of the Planes introduced a centauroid demon, the name of which escapes me, who would be perfect to represent the "real" Chitza-Atlan in the Outer Planes.
#9 ripvanwormer Oct 03, 2005 15:00:20	Manual of the Planes introduced a centauroid demon, the name of which escapes me, who would be perfect to represent the "real" Chitza-Atlan in the Outer Planes. Armanites, who were actually originally introduced in Planes of Chaos.
#10 lincoln_hills Oct 05, 2005 13:59:46	Armanites, who were actually originally introduced in Planes of Chaos. Armanites, thankyewverramucha. They're the ones. And I should have said, "given 3.0 stats," not "introduced." No doubt there's a 3.5 upgrade (complete with 10x10' space) by now.
#11 chatdemon Oct 22, 2005 14:47:33	I find it somehow amusing that we are seriously wondering whether something in an AD&D module was (gasp) made up rather than ported directly from an RL religion. Talk about a reversal of the norm! ;) Well, C1 is one of the very few examples of an AD&D module that clearly says "this is the real world material we based this on" in the introduction. There is a ton of recent discussion and articles related to the Olman on Canonfire, and like others there, I tend to think that using Aztec-Mayan material as a "style sheet" for the Olman is a better course than trying to outright shoehorn those real world cultures into the Amedio setting.