Or failing the availablility of information people's opinions on what could be. My group of players has decided to head from Nibenay to Draaj then north to Kurn, so as you can see the lack of information about this City-State is frustrating and without having my TSR supplements any longer I cannot recall if anything was laid out in cannon. Anyway once the information is accumulated here I will do as I did with the Ogo thread and make a tentative entry amassing the opinions and knowledge found acceptable by my fellows into a solidified whole.
Also I will warn in advance that I am starting 3 threads today to cover 3 topics that hold great interest to me, so please no comments like "oh that should have all gone into one" since they are VERY disparate topics. LOL
Alexis
For Krun, I've personally had a group go into the Old Town, and it took a week or so for them to get some rather eerie feelings--like they were being watched constantly.... the slave over there, that templar, the merchant in the shop on the street they went down; like they were under constant surveilance, and it disturbed them so greatly that the group eventually left Kurn afraid of what was really going on there. When they got to Eldaarich... well.... after a week they were rerolling characters because they all fell victim to Daskinor's madness in one way or another and ended up with one getting gutted in the town square, another getting strung up by his entrails and left hanging somewhere along one of the walls, another got vivisected by a prostitute he was umm....in the mioddle of procuring services from, and the last ended up the main course for an inn's regular patrons. After that, my players decided they'd never visit the north again.
The party enjoyed the wonders of New Kurn for several days, but were asked by Oronis to voluntarily have their minds altered so they could never remember exactly where they had seen the magnificent city or who its angelic ruler was.
Well, outside of what's in the expanded boxed set, and the little tidbits gleaned from Defilers & Preservers, as well as Wisdom of the Drylanders... there really isn't much about Kurn. However, one of the big projects that Athas.org is (was?) working on is the "Lost Cities" project--which covers the two unique city-states: The City-State of Kurn (both Old Town and New Kurn) and The City-State of Eldaarich (complete with the mad sorcerer-king Daskinor, and all the fun of his insanity -- don't forget that the Dragon decided it was better to skip Kurn and Eldaarich each year for his levy than to deal with Daskinor...).
For Krun, I've personally had a group go into the Old Town, and it took a week or so for them to get some rather eerie feelings--like they were being watched constantly.... the slave over there, that templar, the merchant in the shop on the street they went down; like they were under constant surveilance, and it disturbed them so greatly that the group eventually left Kurn afraid of what was really going on there. When they got to Eldaarich... well.... after a week they were rerolling characters because they all fell victim to Daskinor's madness in one way or another and ended up with one getting gutted in the town square, another getting strung up by his entrails and left hanging somewhere along one of the walls, another got vivisected by a prostitute he was umm....in the mioddle of procuring services from, and the last ended up the main course for an inn's regular patrons. After that, my players decided they'd never visit the north again.
NICE :D You are a sick, sick man and it rulz!!!
Anyone feel like discoursing me on their take on Kurn? I would greatly appreciate it, though I have some ideas myself, I am stymied in the context of keeping an Athasian flavor (meaning intrigue, danger and machinations) in a place ruled by the most powerful servant of good.
Well here's to hopin your creative juices are flowin.
Alexis
Since cannon is lacking for Kurn and its SK, I would greatly like to hear some behind the scenes house campaign additions for this city state.
Anyone feel like discoursing me on their take on Kurn? I would greatly appreciate it, though I have some ideas myself, I am stymied in the context of keeping an Athasian flavor (meaning intrigue, danger and machinations) in a place ruled by the most powerful servant of good.
Well here's to hopin your creative juices are flowin.
Alexis
I know its been hinted that the Dragon skipped Kurn and Eldaarich for his levy because of Daskinor's madness, but this seems kinda weak in my opinion. There had to be a really compelling reason the most powerful being in the known world would just "forget" those 2 nation-states. Any ideas?
I know its been hinted that the Dragon skipped Kurn and Eldaarich for his levy because of Daskinor's madness, but this seems kinda weak in my opinion. There had to be a really compelling reason the most powerful being in the known world would just "forget" those 2 nation-states. Any ideas?
...Epic Level Psionics and or Magic used against Borys by Oronis??? but that wouldn't account for the other SK's...though they may simply assume Borys hits them also... still.. there isn't any communication between those cities that I know of .. that's a very good point and I agree.. the concept is weak...
I know its been hinted that the Dragon skipped Kurn and Eldaarich for his levy because of Daskinor's madness, but this seems kinda weak in my opinion. There had to be a really compelling reason the most powerful being in the known world would just "forget" those 2 nation-states. Any ideas?
Daskinor's madness helps to explain why he would skip Eldaarich, but it really doesn't explain Kurn at all. I agree with you at least that far. Perhaps the dragon was actually fooled by Oronis's ploy of the dying city of Old Kurn
, and he decided to skip the city because taking the levy would destroy it and he prefered to have it there for an emergency. That is if one or more of the other cities couldn't meet their levy then he could gather the remaining part of the levy from Kurn like what was attempted in Kled so that Tyr wouldn't have to pay the levy.I know that's kind of weak, but it at least its something specific to Kurn.
Another possibility is that the Dragon was aware of Oronis's plans and Avangion status and he was allowing the SK to develop his power and regenerate the area around New Kurn for some alterier purpose.
Just a thought.
...Epic Level Psionics and or Magic used against Borys by Oronis??? but that wouldn't account for the other SK's...though they may simply assume Borys hits them also... still.. there isn't any communication between those cities that I know of .. that's a very good point and I agree.. the concept is weak...
My guess is the distance from the other city-states makes it that if the other SK's saw Borys demanding more lives for his tribute, then they'd be left assuming he may have wiped them out. With Oronis playing all hidey, and Daskinor playing in his own little dimented world, those two don't exactly make for keeping in touch with the others. I personally don't see the SK's as always being in contact with each other--they probably are intimidated and always having to second-guess each other's motives. But if the Dragon starts demanding more of a tribute, and stops going north, odds are he's doing that for a very good reason, like he annihilated those cities.
I personally run that Daskinor's madness is like an infectious disease throught Eldaarich. Not only is the sorcerer-king mad, but it's filterred in bizarre ways to the population. Templars (and in my campaigns, Paladins) roam the streets in factions that battle each other, only a week later to be completely reconciled, and two days later be divided and at war as completely new factions. The people are terrified of these city officials/factions, sometimes joining them, sometimes fighting them, sometimes fighting each other. Daskinor himself, I rule, sees what ammounts to "shadow goblins" that leap out at him from every dark corner ready to attack--making him more or less incapable of really doing anything other than literally jumping at shadows (he was the Champion vs. Goblins, after all). There are templars which watch over him, and try to slowly bring him into more and more lucid states--they seem to honestly be the only realsane ones in the city, and I think it might actually be because they are Oronis' templars, helping keep the neighbors in-line and more cooperative. I've envisioned that Daskinor's armies have, occasionally, merged together into a single force, at which time Daskinor gets expansionistic, marches to Kurn, only for his mind to fall apart on him, and as he does, his army attacks itself breaking into factions once more only to end up back in Eldaarich. It's a viscous cycle that has persisted for thousands of years.
Why is Daskinor like this? I personally believe that it is because unlike the other Champions, Daskinor was a Wilder. The highly chaotic emotional states that a Wilder uses for their power got magnified and then blown way out of proportion from the Dragon metamorphosis. As the metamorphosis restructures Daskinor physically, the result is that his already fragile mind, teetering just this side of sanity, was knocked clean over to the fractured side. His Wilder abilities, now out of control, along with any advantages he's gained as a Champion of Rajaat, Dragon, and Sorcerer-King has caused his insanity to infect the whole population of Eldaarich, resulting in a sort of unknown hazard that I think Borys simply decided he didn't want to deal with, and with Oronis (or rather, Keltis as far as Borys was concerned) wanting to make himself be more or less unseen in the world, the Dragon could have decided that either KEltis would defeat Daskinor, or vice-versa. If Keltis won, then he'd still potentially be a useful ally. If Daskinor won, then hopefully he'd self-destruct. Due to the madness of his Animalistic Rampage, Borys could have feared that getting near to Daskinor could potentially trigger another episode of that, thus he just decided to rather steer clear.
---
More later on my personal take on Kurn and Oronis.
My guess is the distance from the other city-states makes it that if the other SK's saw Borys demanding more lives for his tribute, then they'd be left assuming he may have wiped them out. With Oronis playing all hidey, and Daskinor playing in his own little dimented world, those two don't exactly make for keeping in touch with the others. I personally don't see the SK's as always being in contact with each other--they probably are intimidated and always having to second-guess each other's motives. But if the Dragon starts demanding more of a tribute, and stops going north, odds are he's doing that for a very good reason, like he annihilated those cities.
I personally run that Daskinor's madness is like an infectious disease throught Eldaarich. Not only is the sorcerer-king mad, but it's filterred in bizarre ways to the population. Templars (and in my campaigns, Paladins) roam the streets in factions that battle each other, only a week later to be completely reconciled, and two days later be divided and at war as completely new factions. The people are terrified of these city officials/factions, sometimes joining them, sometimes fighting them, sometimes fighting each other. Daskinor himself, I rule, sees what ammounts to "shadow goblins" that leap out at him from every dark corner ready to attack--making him more or less incapable of really doing anything other than literally jumping at shadows (he was the Champion vs. Goblins, after all). There are templars which watch over him, and try to slowly bring him into more and more lucid states--they seem to honestly be the only realsane ones in the city, and I think it might actually be because they are Oronis' templars, helping keep the neighbors in-line and more cooperative. I've envisioned that Daskinor's armies have, occasionally, merged together into a single force, at which time Daskinor gets expansionistic, marches to Kurn, only for his mind to fall apart on him, and as he does, his army attacks itself breaking into factions once more only to end up back in Eldaarich. It's a viscous cycle that has persisted for thousands of years.
Why is Daskinor like this? I personally believe that it is because unlike the other Champions, Daskinor was a Wilder. The highly chaotic emotional states that a Wilder uses for their power got magnified and then blown way out of proportion from the Dragon metamorphosis. As the metamorphosis restructures Daskinor physically, the result is that his already fragile mind, teetering just this side of sanity, was knocked clean over to the fractured side. His Wilder abilities, now out of control, along with any advantages he's gained as a Champion of Rajaat, Dragon, and Sorcerer-King has caused his insanity to infect the whole population of Eldaarich, resulting in a sort of unknown hazard that I think Borys simply decided he didn't want to deal with, and with Oronis (or rather, Keltis as far as Borys was concerned) wanting to make himself be more or less unseen in the world, the Dragon could have decided that either KEltis would defeat Daskinor, or vice-versa. If Keltis won, then he'd still potentially be a useful ally. If Daskinor won, then hopefully he'd self-destruct. Due to the madness of his Animalistic Rampage, Borys could have feared that getting near to Daskinor could potentially trigger another episode of that, thus he just decided to rather steer clear.
---
More later on my personal take on Kurn and Oronis.
Hmm, interesting point of view. It offers more of an explanation of the possible reasons for Borys' avoidance of those 2 cities. I can live with those explanations
thanks 
Personally, I like the idea of Oronis discovering this and offering to start a new colony of Lizardmen in New Kurn. It just seems like a step towards a different Athas. (not that this new athas would ever come to be...)
There's an old thread on this somewhere. In it, I suggested that Oronis may have felt enough guilt to find it necessary to turn himself over to the mercies of the lizardfolk in order to atone for his past atrocities against them.
The player hook to this would be that the PCs have to defend Oronis in a sort of lizardman-court-type-meeting scenario. They would need to prove to a lizardfolk council that Keltis/Oronis had indeed changed and that his death would only serve to further push Athas into oblivion.
There's an old thread on this somewhere. In it, I suggested that Oronis may have felt enough guilt to find it necessary to turn himself over to the mercies of the lizardfolk in order to atone for his past atrocities against them.
The player hook to this would be that the PCs have to defend Oronis in a sort of lizardman-court-type-meeting scenario. They would need to prove to a lizardfolk council that Keltis/Oronis had indeed changed and that his death would only serve to further push Athas into oblivion.
This idea would make a great official adventure, that might be released in conjunction with the Lost Cities project?
This idea would make a great official adventure, that might be released in conjunction with the Lost Cities project?
I've always thought it would make for a great adventure as well. It would work best if PCs had previous dealing with the lizardfolk of the Last Sea, and then encountered Oronis in New Kurn.
Oronis: "So my new friends, tell me of your travels"
PC:"Well great one, we have recently journeyed the wastes from Saragar where we encountered these immensely powerful masters of the Way, and these strange water dwelling lizard people...."
Oronis: A look of shock and disbelief appears "Lizardfolk? Tell me more of these beings"
Good stuff.
I love the idea of Oronis meeting up with PC's who have discovered Lizardmen still live.. in fact, it would be outstanding to have a lost cities adventure, starting with the Last Sea, and a new PC race, the Athasian Lizardman, who travels with the PC's to Kurn, for whatever reason (something other than both states being lost :P) and finding (prior to a meeting with Keltis) a sort of magical shrine to the Race once known as Lizard Men, created by Keltis due to his guilt.. naturally the Lizard Man is intrigued, the players are confused, and an investigation begins.. grand secrets and potent relics of the Ancient Lizard Man past could be obtained.. (great chance to make a race specific weapon or two, both against and for Lizard Men)...
Perhaps our traveling PC Lizard Man is posessed by the souls of hsi ancient ancestors who want revenge against Keltis, and he is granted powers and forced to seek his life.. and the PC's must defend Keltis who as Oronis, will not defend himself, and then they must convince the ancient spirits that Oronis has reformed, so that both Keltis lives, and the Lizard Man PC is spared, (perhaps being left with special powers/relics/knowledge of his people) one could even craft a new PrC or Template for a Lizard Man from that scenario.
Could be quite interesting.. and a great way to introduce Lizard Men as an Athasian race complete with unique class, items and or templates. (Perhaps the Posessed LM could use special 'powers' to snag a portion of Daskinor's madness and use it uppon Oronis as a form of punishment? And then the PC's must free him??? before Kurn tears itself apart??
I have run to adventures that he took part in:
The first involved a group of 4 from off world (brought in by Dregoth for "testing" but got away), they wandered for about 5 months in the north end of the Tyr region. Finnaly they got near to Kurn & the good Cleric who had been without powers for all this time began to feel them stir again as they moved closer to Kurn. Following his feelings of Mana returning to him they found Oronis (after about a week in Kurn) and the cleric discovered the Oronis (as the closest thing to a good God Athas has) could grant him spells, much boot licking ensued. :D
The second was a group that had found Kurn early in the campain & ruturned there often, it basicly became thier home city-state. As they grew stronger Oronis began to ask them to help him in verious tasks. These adventures lad (after 8 of them, 5 months real time) to his finnaly asking them to aid in his next step of Preserver Metamorphosis. THAT got them going, I have never seen my players work so hard at ANY quest I have given them. One of them got himself killed (and knew it was comming) to let the others get away from Hamanu with a book they needed, that was a first, my players HATE when they loose a character, I was very impressed I alowed them to Teleport his body out so he could be raised by Oronis' Templars. And yes they did manage to get Oronis all the things he needed, Oronis is a level 25 Avangion in my setting.
So as I said I find him to be a wonderful role-model for my players. He, along with Lalali-Puy, are about my favorite major NPCs on Athas.
But on DS the major Good player is Oronis and he's alone, battling against horrific odds stacked against him, doing a desperate battle. In a world like Athas such a character should inspire fanatical devotion from the ethically and morally-starved people who meet him, PCs included.
The fact that he had redeemed himself from a truely evil being and advanced as an AB does not necessarly make him good. Good does not cower in the face of evil nor hide themselves away when there are people that could truely use their aid. Now I am not saying that he should boldly pronounce himself and start taking on the SK's- that would be what I like to describe as 'lawful/stupid'
He so far, has only really helped himself and the few that live within a few square miles, when he could travel away from the Tablelands and Tyr Region, find some place that is free from the SK's control and begin training mages and psions to follow his path and gather other people of power to his side that would be willing to go out and start healing their world. But instead he does nothing!
But on DS the major Good player is Oronis and he's alone, battling against horrific odds stacked against him, doing a desperate battle. In a world like Athas such a character should inspire fanatical devotion from the ethically and morally-starved people who meet him, PCs included.
That's the way the psion in my game has turned out, only it's to Korgunard (he's still alive- not for much longer though).
That's the way the psion in my game has turned out, only it's to Korgunard (he's still alive- not for much longer though).
Korgunard is a great example of what Oronis should be doing. I plan on keeping Korgunard around in my game, due to the fact that I have not run the DC adventure and I do not think that I will at this point.
Korgunard is a great example of what Oronis should be doing. I plan on keeping Korgunard around in my game, due to the fact that I have not run the DC adventure and I do not think that I will at this point.
I prefer the other Avangions dead. It places additional strain on Oronis, and make the discovery of even the existence of the Avangion path that much harder. Oronis being filled with the guilty conscience that every Avangion he taught the spell series to is dead, just adds to his character, I feel.
I have a hard time sometime seeing Oronis as 'good', just due to the fact that he sits and does nothing- he could be out there training a whole bunch of Avangions, but he does not because he is too fearful and too filled with guilt over his own actions IMO.
The fact that he had redeemed himself from a truely evil being and advanced as an AB does not necessarly make him good. Good does not cower in the face of evil nor hide themselves away when there are people that could truely use their aid. Now I am not saying that he should boldly pronounce himself and start taking on the SK's- that would be what I like to describe as 'lawful/stupid'
He so far, has only really helped himself and the few that live within a few square miles, when he could travel away from the Tablelands and Tyr Region, find some place that is free from the SK's control and begin training mages and psions to follow his path and gather other people of power to his side that would be willing to go out and start healing their world. But instead he does nothing!
How do you know that he isn't. It's not as if their is a lot of information that was released on Oronis or other parts of the world without SKs. I would imagine that he is very subtle and takes the long view on restoring Athas.
Korgunard is a great example of what Oronis should be doing. I plan on keeping Korgunard around in my game, due to the fact that I have not run the DC adventure and I do not think that I will at this point.
The thing is, its due to those very activities that Korgunard died. Oronis realizes that by keeping a low profile Athas has more to gain in the long run.
The thing is, its due to those very activities that Korgunard died. Oronis realizes that by keeping a low profile Athas has more to gain in the long run.
Or maybe Oronis is too cautious, and the PC's are needed to kick him into motion...
Or maybe Oronis is too cautious, and the PC's are needed to kick him into motion...
That could very well be needed as well, but its not likely that Oronis is going to be convinced to do anything drastic as to conduct open warfare against the remaining SKs or the like.
I have a hard time sometime seeing Oronis as 'good', just due to the fact that he sits and does nothing- he could be out there training a whole bunch of Avangions, but he does not because he is too fearful and too filled with guilt over his own actions IMO.
The fact that he had redeemed himself from a truely evil being and advanced as an AB does not necessarly make him good. Good does not cower in the face of evil nor hide themselves away when there are people that could truely use their aid. Now I am not saying that he should boldly pronounce himself and start taking on the SK's- that would be what I like to describe as 'lawful/stupid'
He so far, has only really helped himself and the few that live within a few square miles, when he could travel away from the Tablelands and Tyr Region, find some place that is free from the SK's control and begin training mages and psions to follow his path and gather other people of power to his side that would be willing to go out and start healing their world. But instead he does nothing!
To suggest Oronis is not good because he isnt crusading for justice in the tablelands is silly. He may want to but honestly, you don't blindly begin wars with other Champions when you are outnumbered at least 3 to 1. Dregoth found this out the hard way. Oronis is doing the best he can under the circumstances, advance the metamorphosis as much as possible and once finished begin the restoration of Athas. Another thing to consider, if Oronis does go on his crusade, what is to keep him from falling back into his genocidal ways again?
One thing he could do, and does (according to the Wisdom of the Drylanders) is gather intel on his enemies in the Tablelands. Maybe given time, when his conscience has had time to heal, he may again begin training a new generation of Avangions (or a PC somehow convinces him to train him).
The thing is, its due to those very activities that Korgunard died. Oronis realizes that by keeping a low profile Athas has more to gain in the long run.
Cowards may life a long life but they die a little more everyday!
Cowards may life a long life but they die a little more everyday!
Would you say he's a coward, or rather just looking at the big picture? Oronis becooming active increases the odds of Dragons killing him quickly and immediately. Dragons and Avangions are diametrically opposed to each other. Further, they'd potentially see him as a traitor to the overall cause of the rebellion against Rajaat--and an immediate threat to them--as he has literally become something more or less unknown. Not only that, but he's more or less been thought of as dead by the other SK's for quite some time. Now, all of that would make for one dead Avangion. And exactly how helpful is a dead Avangion in restoring Athas?
Would you say he's a coward, or rather just looking at the big picture? Oronis becooming active increases the odds of Dragons killing him quickly and immediately. Dragons and Avangions are diametrically opposed to each other. Further, they'd potentially see him as a traitor to the overall cause of the rebellion against Rajaat--and an immediate threat to them--as he has literally become something more or less unknown. Not only that, but he's more or less been thought of as dead by the other SK's for quite some time. Now, all of that would make for one dead Avangion. And exactly how helpful is a dead Avangion in restoring Athas?
Exactly
Cowards may life a long life but they die a little more everyday!
He could be even more good than you can imagine. Part of what stays his hand from starting an overt crusade could be his respect for life and his desire to see those who can be turned to the side of good turned rather than killed. Remember Oronis himself was once a very deeply evil man, but he came to see the light of good. Don't you think that he might hope that the other champions (or at least some of them) might be convinced to change their ways as well.
Just think about the loss of life that would occur if Oronis started a war with the other SKs. Many inoccent people would fall victim and much defilinging would likely occur, and for what if he didn't win.
I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever of him not being good, but if you want to see him that way then so be it.
However, one of the big projects that Athas.org is (was?) working on is the "Lost Cities" project--which covers the two unique city-states: The City-State of Kurn (both Old Town and New Kurn) and The City-State of Eldaarich (complete with the mad sorcerer-king Daskinor, and all the fun of his insanity -- don't forget that the Dragon decided it was better to skip Kurn and Eldaarich each year for his levy than to deal with Daskinor...).
I dont know what athas.org or Brax are thinking about Kurn and Eldaarich, but I am seeing a lot of threads recently here particularly interesting about these SK and these regions.
Would it be possible to know if this project is dead or no, because I am sure if some peoples work on these areas and that suddently someone at athas.org arrive with a big pdf project concerning the northern tableland... this would be very sad. Lot's of work lost. Not because it wouldnt be interesting, but lot's of things would become obsolete since he wouldnt be official.
What do you think? At least, what's up with the "lost cities project?"
I would really like to clear up anyones thoughts that I dislike Oronis or anything- I just think the material that has been printed so far about him does not show him in the best of light as the 'worlds savior'. In my campaign, he is very active and in fact the main reason that the characters and group I have playing now are on the path that they are- he is behind the sceans subtililly manipulating things to get them to accomplish specific things and aid in events that will have long reaching and positive effects in Athas.
They definately didn't develop Oronis' role in the setting enough
.Would it be possible to know if this project is dead or no, because I am sure if some peoples work on these areas and that suddently someone at athas.org arrive with a big pdf project concerning the northern tableland... this would be very sad. Lot's of work lost. Not because it wouldnt be interesting, but lot's of things would become obsolete since he wouldnt be official.
The project isn't dead, but it's on hold for the time being.