Why is it some people feel Dregoth is the source of the Metamorphosis spell? and why do others feel Borys gave everyone the ability to channel energy and have templars? And does anyone agree with the idea of Rajaat being 'forced' to turn Borys into the dragon???
I always felt that it was fitting that Rajaat came up with it all.. and that the SK's were given their templar spell granting ability from him also.. to me.. it doesn't fit the mental makeup of the constantly waring backstabbing SKs to have one such as Borys grant the others a huge advantage and not simply keep it for himself..
And while Dregoth really is very cool.. why is he cool enough to have started the whole dragon metamorphosis thing?? what's the theory on that???
I really am just curious here... lay down the info.. whats up?
official sources
Could you please specify the source?
/wary after "made-up facts" incident ;)
Sorry to say its not official, far from, although all the people I've heard voice their opinion on that bit of info have said they've liked it, and have gone along treating it as official...for them.
Personally I like it tons that at least one Champion was immortal before Rajaat made him a Champion, a bit of a "look here, old geezer, I don't really need you and your arcane rituals, no! no!".
Its refreshing.
As to know if this makes Dregoth any different from the others? Who knows, there surely is no evidence I know of that supports he's more intelligent, or cunny, or whatever adjective you want to label him with, than the others!
Is it still cool anyway? Yes!
(Maybe CbtSS says something about it, but I don't think so. Check, if you have the heart!)
My opinion, if anyone asks, is that its total horse fallout. Like anyone could make Rajaat do anything he doesn't want to, even if he's dead and reduced to pulp at his servants' feet.
The Revised Wanderer's Chronicle pg 13:
He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them "Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!" Rajaat promised, and his Champions believed him.
This would lead me to believe that Rajaat was fully aware of the Dragon Metamorphosis and that he had plans for his Champions far after the Cleansing Wars.
Lyric, a detail: the Timeline doesn't say Rajaat was forced to do anything, but one of the histories - Wanderer's, Beyond the Prism Pentad, whatever which - says it, hence where it comes from.
My opinion, if anyone asks, is that its total horse fallout. Like anyone could make Rajaat do anything he doesn't want to, even if he's dead and reduced to pulp at his servants' feet.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, they couldn't even force the warbringer to stay dead.. ;) I think some of the cannon history is merely fluff the SK's use to control and confuse.. even the book of kemelok kings can be in error.. why? because its made up of legends and rumors heard back in ancient days... just because its old knowledge doesn't mean its accurate knowledge..
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So somewhere it says in RaFoaDK that Dregoth was immortal before he became a champion?? In that same book it states that when Rajaat created sorcery he created Dragons.. (hence Kalak being dubbed a SK dragon in the making but never a champion) in other words.. I believe this meant that vastly intelligent and talented wizards could indeed develope the Dragon Metamorphosis spell on their own.. just as Kalak did.. just as Dregoth may have done.. (which would have made him immortal before Rajaat got to him) but that wouldn't have made him a Champion, nor made it so he could have templars..
Maybe Dregoth did create the Metamorphosis spell... like others could have.. but I do believe Rajaat brought his champions to the first stages of the metamorphosis if they weren't there already... perhaps he pushed them a little further along if they were already enroute? Which could explain Dregoth being more advanced? but that's just fluff..
So maybe its both.. maybe Dregoth did craft his own Dragon Metamorphosis spell.. but its doubtful he was the first.. I rather think Rajaat was the first.. with the knowledge gained from the Pristine Tower.. and I think that Oronis wasn't the first to make the Preserver Metamorphosis either.. but that he recreated it.. whether he knew of its existence is up for grabs.. he may have been the first since Rajaat to craft it however..
Those are my thoughts.
Ok... I wanna hear everyone's input..
Why is it some people feel Dregoth is the source of the Metamorphosis spell? and why do others feel Borys gave everyone the ability to channel energy and have templars? And does anyone agree with the idea of Rajaat being 'forced' to turn Borys into the dragon???
I always felt that it was fitting that Rajaat came up with it all.. and that the SK's were given their templar spell granting ability from him also.. to me.. it doesn't fit the mental makeup of the constantly waring backstabbing SKs to have one such as Borys grant the others a huge advantage and not simply keep it for himself..
And while Dregoth really is very cool.. why is he cool enough to have started the whole dragon metamorphosis thing?? what's the theory on that???
I really am just curious here... lay down the info.. whats up?
Some will state "Rise and Fall" as my source, but that's not entirely true. IT's a matter of looking at the stages each dragon is in. Borys was state-10, but as the timeline points out, Borys got there through the use of the Dark Lens.All of the others are stage 1 - 4, except Dregoth, who is state 9...and was Stage-9 before he died. Which means... either he was very, very fast on the uptake, or he already had a headstart. In the Wanderer's Chronicle from the Expanded Campaign Setting (DS2), page 14, we have the following:
...he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings.
That is where I get that Borys made them into Dragons. It says later in that same section:
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time... Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
Which is where we are told that the other dragon-kings made Borys into The Dragon with the help of the Dark Lens.
Now.... I extrapolate, from my own campaigns, the following:
- Dregoth had started down the path of dragonhood before the other Champions.
- Concievably, Dregoth invented/developed the process himself.
- Dregoth could have shown the process to Borys, who then in turn, thinking back to his master's words, "Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” felt that this could very well have been what Rajaat was referring to, and then decided that as gods, they'd be able to hold Rajaat in prison indefinitely.
- Borys advances all the other Champions, one-by-one, into becoming Dragons. He didn't need to advance Dregoth, as Dregoth had already started down the process.
- Borys knew that a fully-developed dragon would be needed, and Dregoth persuaded Borys into becoming the full Dragon (ever the observer/scientist, he gets to see what the metamorphosis will actually do physically and mentally to a person, using Borys as a guinea pig).
- Borys becomes The Dragon, goes mad for 200 years. Dregoth develops some sort of counter to resist the insanity (he was stage-9, and hadn't had any known outbreaks of the animalistic rampage)
- Dregoth is slain by panicked sorceror-kings who fear that he'll go mad like Borys did and wipe out the rest of the world.
Now, there is one exception to this rule above I also work with. I liked the idea from RaFoaDK, where Hamanu is a "time bomb" advancing automatically through the meiamophosis stages. I think that during the Cleansing Wars, Dregoth had sacked and captured the city of Giustenal--a Giant city. He set up his headquarters there, and really did not work on wiping out the Giants. Instead, he was developing the metamorphosis spells at the time. Rajaat, infuriated with his delay, visited Dregoth, and saw what Dregoth was working on. Rajaat quickly figured out the process, and then slipped off, to determine how to use the metamorphosis to his advantage. Another of his Champions, Myron, was also slacking in his responsibility, so Rajaat helps a young upstart human boy to eventually overthrow and slay Myron. Rajaat takes this young warrior, brings him back to the Pristine Tower, gives him the ability to use magic innately and how to harness psionics, plus restructures Hamanu into his Last Champion--his Final Solution. Hamanu is "gifted" with a reworked version of the dragon metamorphosis that Dregoth was researching and Rajaat stole. Hamanu's dragon metamorphosis advances in conjunction with his gaining XP, using arcane magic or psionics. He quickly routs and defeats the trolls, then is shown his new role according to Rajaat--that of the Champion of Rajaat against Humans. Hamanu, a very pro-human person, panics, and he lets Borys know, which starts the chain of events that leads to Rajaat's fall and the birth of the Sorcerer-Kings. He also is infused with power from the Dark Lens, but rather than it granting him the first stage of metamorphosis (he already had a variation of the dragon metamorphosis going), it just energized and fueled his tranformation slightly. Hamanu could easily think that all of the sorcerer-kings are automatically advancing as a dragon like himself. they aren't exactly prone to smalltalk amongst each other.
So, you end up with Dregoth as nearly-completed in the metamorphosis, Hamanu as something...different, and the others having recieved the metamorphosis from Borys and the Dark Lens.
Oh, and I'm personally not fond of making everything in the world that's gone horribly wrong, be directly the fault of Rajaat. He's powerful? Undoubtedly. The world was made far worse because of him? Unquestionably. He's directly responsible for everything wrong? Not at all. The Champions/Dragon Kings have to have had at least some hand in the screwing up of Athas.
Having said all that, I use the Revised Campaign Setting as my basis for the canon. Everything else is taken on a case by case basis. However as it relates to this discussion my take on Kalak and Dregoth can be summed up as follows:
All the SK's were indeed Champions (even Kalak); Rajaat revealed how to become a Dragon to the SK's. Dregoth was quite a bit more ambitious and therefore pursued his transformation with great relish. It is also possible that Dregoth discovered his own means of becoming a Dragon, and Rajaat simply took the credit for his discovery. Without records, it is pure speculation. Kalak, having completed his War, retired to Tyr long before the Betrayal. Hamanu regards Kalak as an imposter of sorts, yet it is my take that this is just Hamanu belittling Kalak to make himself more important/powerful.
This is how I percieve the situation at any rate, take it or leave it as you will
I find it interesting that there is such a discussion of canon for this setting. Personally, I think its up to each DM to determine what is and what is not "official" for their campaigns. Though it is entertaining to see what others think on the subject, I find it difficult to accept someone elses canon as my own, when having read most of the same material, have come to surprisingly different conclusion on a variety of issues.
Bingo. I think the only book that's taken as "canon" in Athas.org is the Wanderer's Journal (not Wanderer's Chronicle). That's right, the fluff/setting book from DS1. Everything else is questionable. This setting is so full of inaccuracies, inconsistancies, and blatant errors, that it really is up to the individual DM to determine what is fact and what is fiction in his or her own games.
Having said all that, I use the Revised Campaign Setting as my basis for the canon. Everything else is taken on a case by case basis. However as it relates to this discussion my take on Kalak and Dregoth can be summed up as follows:
All the SK's were indeed Champions (even Kalak); Rajaat revealed how to become a Dragon to the SK's. Dregoth was quite a bit more ambitious and therefore pursued his transformation with great relish. It is also possible that Dregoth discovered his own means of becoming a Dragon, and Rajaat simply took the credit for his discovery. Without records, it is pure speculation. Kalak, having completed his War, retired to Tyr long before the Betrayal. Hamanu regards Kalak as an imposter of sorts, yet it is my take that this is just Hamanu belittling Kalak to make himself more important/powerful.
This is how I percieve the situation at any rate, take it or leave it as you will
Fun enough. the Revised Campaign Setting doesn't support it directly, however, as it explicitly states that Borys used the Dark Lens to start them in their metamorphoses. Yet another example of a DM excercising his freedom to choose what he wants in his games.
Just a thought...
Hmm, it occurs to me that since there is interest in determining what is "official" and what is not; I wonder if there is anyone at Athas.org responsible for sifting through the material to compile and revise the "OFFICIAL" canon that will be used in the 3.5ed campaign setting. Though a rather lengthy project, it may serve to provide fans, new and old, with a basis for campaingn without needing to collect the many different sources spread throughtout the internet or gaming stores. Perhaps its time to consolidate the material?
Just a thought...
There was a whole series of "inconsistancies" threads that were done a while back on these forums, where us forum-goers were attempting to find equitable solutions to the largest inconsistancies from the books. These were big discussions that had very interesting views from a number of different people, and overall gave people some fun directions to take things.
However, the official Athas.org response is rather than making an official ruling on what is and isn't "cannonical" or "correct", thus infuriating and alienating sections of the fans by inevitably choosing a path that many people will dislike, they leave it up to the individual DM's to make those decisions for themselves. As I said, the only source that is sort of taken as "cannonical" (even if in jest), is the Wanderer's Journal. Everything else tends to conflict with every other source. Even the WJ conflicts with other sources.
Understand, there are people here who play 2E exclusively, people who like Athas.org's material, people who like Paizo's material, people who like to take elements from both, people who have radically different directions they've taken... Some here dislike the Rise and Fall of a Dragon King book, while others hate the Prism Pentad series of books, and yet others hate the Tribe of One series--while others like all three or some assortment of them. Hell, there are people here who reject the idea of Rajaat, his Champions, or anything of that nature, wanting to stay strictly in the DS1 (original boxed set) view of Dark Sun that never expands on the origins of the Sorcerer-Kings even in the slightest. Some even have added gods to Athas and have an open multiverse for it. Some even have made it into a futuristic, screwed up version of Forgotten Realms where everything is dying off. There's one guy I remember who had mentioned that he had it be a sort of post-apocalyptic vision of the [old] World of Darkness, and yet another guy who was convinced that it was somehow a central, core element of his distorted version of Spelljammer.
Are these people wrong? Not for their own games. Now, some are more outlandish ideas than others. I have my own outlandish ideas, and like most people, have my own line of loigic to verify my view of Dark Sun. I know there are people who disagree with me in different areas. I'd rather there is no codified "this is right, everything else is wrong" view handed down by Athas.org.
I'd rather there is no codified "this is right, everything else is wrong" view handed down by Athas.org.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
We're just here to convert the setting to the new edition of D&D and expand upon it, not re-write it.
It seems to me that both Dregoth and Rajaat were trying to duplicate the effects of lifeshaping through sorcery and the way. This is where the metamorphosis comes from.... the attempts to duplicate the lifeshaping of rhe rhulisti....
Note I preffer the idea that Dregoth discovered at least the first stages of the metamorphosis on his own..... now wether Rajaat had already discovered this or not is debatable.... and to be honest I do not want an answer to it..... this is knowledge lost in history.
Note also in my personal games I preffer to have it be that the granting of templar magic was something added by Rajaat at the same time as the champion abilities (note I do not believe it is a part of the Champion abilities..... more of a side effect of how Rajaat did them.... so it would be near impossible to recreate.... and most likely would require going back in time to the pristine tower and the dark lens in the green age and having the spells cast then).... I also see the Champion state as being the precurser to becoming a dragon.... the transformation into dragon was what was meant by Borys turning the remaining champions into sorcerer kings in my humble opinion..... So this would mean sacha and wyan are not dragons. (however I go back and forth on this, sometimes I preffer that Rajaat granted both the Champion status and the dragon metamorphosis.... and in this case the Title of sorcerer king granted by Borys was just that a title..... though the pentad states in several places that even with the lens Borys cannot make anyone a sorcerer king, by both the Dwarvern banshees, and the 2 heads confirming.... which lends itself to the idea that Rajaat granted it all.)
However by the same token I have a few non-dragons able to use the powers of "dragon-magic" as either sacha or wyan was able to assist tythian in the 2nd book of the pentad with casting a spell identified as being "dragon-magic" as it was neither sorcery or the way but something else. (not to mention the whole Nok thing)
However this si all rather moot for the official standpoint, as I try to make the past as mysterious as possible..... just building the rules in such a way that any of the "histories" could be true from a rules standpoint..... giving the DM's the options that they may want.
So somewhere it says in RaFoaDK that Dregoth was immortal before he became a champion?? In that same book it states that when Rajaat created sorcery he created Dragons.. (hence Kalak being dubbed a SK dragon in the making but never a champion) in other words.. I believe this meant that vastly intelligent and talented wizards could indeed develope the Dragon Metamorphosis spell on their own.. just as Kalak did.. just as Dregoth may have done.. (which would have made him immortal before Rajaat got to him) but that wouldn't have made him a Champion, nor made it so he could have templars..
Yes, the book says that somewhere.
But if you go with RaFoaDK, its the SKs themselves who created the dragon spell and made it availlaibale to others, or its they who plundered Rajaat's study and found his dragon research.
Why? The dragon spell is as hard to come up with on your own as the avangion spell: you need a thousand years, bla bla, we all know the drill. Worst, the avangion spell is a special version of the dragon spell, so coming with the dragon spell on your own...Its why you need to find pre-existing material on dragons - perhaps even a spell - to be able to do dragon research. Thankfully, there's several formerly Champion-ruled ruins out there, plus all those ambitious, now dead folks who became dragons on their own after copying said material. There are plenty of sources to go with.
As for there being dragons during the Cleansing Wars, I say a big No. It would have taken a Champion to settle down long enough to come up with a spell version of what Rajaat did to him, for there to be written documents that wannabe dragons could use to transform. So either dragons start appearing somewhen after the Champions settle down and become SKs, or they appear somewhen after Dregoth (the only Champion, AFAIK, who is know to have settled down for a long period of time during the Cleansing Wars) settles down during the Cleansing Wars.
As for the part of Dregoth being immortal before he was made a Champion by Rajaat, take note that nowhere does RaFoaDK hints at or suggests that Dregoth was anything other than plain immortal: no dragonhood was involved. After all, the secret of immortality is not much a secret if you are an epic spellcaster...and in that novel it is Rajaat who invented dragonhood.
Remember: Mon Aderath was made immortal by Dregoth before Dregoth had ever answered the call of Rajaat (so the card says in CbtSS), so you can imagine the immortality process Dregoth used on Mon was the process he had uncovered for himself.
As for there being dragons during the Cleansing Wars, I say a big No. It would have taken a Champion to settle down long enough to come up with a spell version of what Rajaat did to him, for there to be written documents that wannabe dragons could use to transform. So either dragons start appearing somewhen after the Champions settle down and become SKs, or they appear somewhen after Dregoth (the only Champion, AFAIK, who is know to have settled down for a long period of time during the Cleansing Wars) settles down during the Cleansing Wars.
Not if you subscribe to the theory that Rajaat himself brought the future SKs to the first level of the dragon metamorphosis when he first made them his Champions. It could have been centuries later when the Champions truly realized what the Warbringer had actually done to them (Dregoth and/or Borys most likely).
Not if you subscribe to the theory that Rajaat himself brought the future SKs to the first level of the dragon metamorphosis when he first made them his Champions. It could have been centuries later when the Champions truly realized what the Warbringer had actually done to them (Dregoth and/or Borys most likely).
Er, double er...
That statement of yours makes no sense to me, Sysane.
I do subscribe to that idea.
If I review one more time what you wrote above...then I have to ask: Why do you say that? I'm in agreement there. Why do you say "Not if"?
The entire quoted paragraph above is in accord with what I said in my earlier post, and faithfully represents my position, if you remove the word "Not".
Hmm, it occurs to me that since there is interest in determining what is "official" and what is not; I wonder if there is anyone at Athas.org responsible for sifting through the material to compile and revise the "OFFICIAL" canon that will be used in the 3.5ed campaign setting. Though a rather lengthy project, it may serve to provide fans, new and old, with a basis for campaingn without needing to collect the many different sources spread throughtout the internet or gaming stores. Perhaps its time to consolidate the material?
From the FAQ at athas.org:
Q: What is the official stance of athas.org on all the various contradictions in the published material? Will an official "statement of canon" ever be forthcoming?
A: The current official stance at athas.org is that the various contradictions in the previously published Dark Sun material add to the setting flavor. Little is known about the history of the world, and most of the records we have about Athas are made by individuals that could be biased and have reasons for their portrayal of what is then conceived as inconsistencies. So an official statement of what is canon and what’s not will not be forthcoming, asides from putting statements made by authors over that of characters in the case of contradictions.
As for the LV's- that I would have to say happened when Borys and the others used the Tower to advance Borys to the 10th stage of dragonhood.
Those are my two bits.
As for the part of Dregoth being immortal before he was made a Champion by Rajaat, take note that nowhere does RaFoaDK hints at or suggests that Dregoth was anything other than plain immortal: no dragonhood was involved. After all, the secret of immortality is not much a secret if you are an epic spellcaster...and in that novel it is Rajaat who invented dragonhood.
To elaborate on this idea, there is a particularly interesting passage in RaFoaDK (p. 241):
Borys gave orders as if he'd been ordained their leader, but the Butcher of Dwarves tread carefully around Dregoth. The Ravager of Giants was unique, even among the champions: when Rajaat found him, Dregoth was already immortal and already at war with the giant race. In his natural form, he was, by far, the largest, most powerful champion, the closest to the death-dealing creature the world called Dragon.
*note - this is stated as the Champions are working to imprison Rajaat.
**note also that it comes right out and says he's not a dragon, just something close to it.
In light of this, I'd surmise that Dregoth did create a metamorphosis spell of sorts, perhaps to help him combat the giants. While not turning him into a dragon, perhaps most of the work present in a dragon metamorphosis spell was already accomplished. So very little effort was required to finish the process of becoming a dragon (up to stage 9, anyways).
To elaborate on this idea, there is a particularly interesting passage in RaFoaDK (p. 241):
Borys gave orders as if he'd been ordained their leader, but the Butcher of Dwarves tread carefully around Dregoth. The Ravager of Giants was unique, even among the champions: when Rajaat found him, Dregoth was already immortal and already at war with the giant race. In his natural form, he was, by far, the largest, most powerful champion, the closest to the death-dealing creature the world called Dragon.
*note - this is stated as the Champions are working to imprison Rajaat.
**note also that it comes right out and says he's not a dragon, just something close to it.
In light of this, I'd surmise that Dregoth did create a metamorphosis spell of sorts, perhaps to help him combat the giants. While not turning him into a dragon, perhaps most of the work present in a dragon metamorphosis spell was already accomplished. So very little effort was required to finish the process of becoming a dragon (up to stage 9, anyways).
It might also be that his spell was different then the one the Rajaat used- which allowed him to avoid the backlash damage- perhaps by requiring more XP burn which would be a great reason to hunt giants down due to their high racial hid dice.
Er, double er...
That statement of yours makes no sense to me, Sysane.
I do subscribe to that idea.
If I review one more time what you wrote above...then I have to ask: Why do you say that? I'm in agreement there. Why do you say "Not if"?
The entire quoted paragraph above is in accord with what I said in my earlier post, and faithfully represents my position, if you remove the word "Not".
My bad. I missed the line of "It would have taken a Champion to settle down long enough to come up with a spell version of what Rajaat did to him".
In his natural form, he was, by far, the largest, most powerful champion, the closest to the death-dealing creature the world called Dragon.
In light of this, I'd surmise that Dregoth did create a metamorphosis spell of sorts, perhaps to help him combat the giants. While not turning him into a dragon, perhaps most of the work present in a dragon metamorphosis spell was already accomplished. So very little effort was required to finish the process of becoming a dragon (up to stage 9, anyways).
This is not the first time I see someone make such a mistake.
"In his natural form" refers to what Dregoth looks like without illusions on himself. It doesn't mean the Dregoth's "form" is any different from the others.
Also, the novel clearly states that all the Champions who went into the Pristine Tower have been made into dragons by Rajaat (Kalak is the only Champion who did not go there, and as such does not have any Champion or dragon powers, in the book).
Although there's no recorded difference between a "champion" and a "Champion", people often mistake "dragon" with "Dragon". The quoted text from RaFoaDK states "the death-dealing creature the world called Dragon", which is a clear indication that Hamanu is referencing the Dragon [of Tyr] as something that Dregoth is now close to physically.
It might also be that his spell was different then the one the Rajaat used- which allowed him to avoid the backlash damage- perhaps by requiring more XP burn which would be a great reason to hunt giants down due to their high racial hid dice.
In the novel, the Champions do not use spells to advance in their metamorphosis: the process is ongoing and unstoppable, installed in each Champion by Rajaat as part of the Champion makeup (other elements include templar magic and a few other details).
They do still use obsidian orbs at certain stages of the transformation: for Champions, those stages are not determined by the casting of a spell but rather by an urge to swallow an orb, said urge which comes whenever the metamorphosis has progressed enough for a particular Champion.
Hamanu never mentions it but choosing to not swallow their next orb is not an option that a Champion has at his disposal to stop the metamorphosis. As Hamanu clearly states, there is no way to stop Rajaat's handiwork. Hamanu has tried to do just that for millenia to no avail. (Dregoth's undeath is a solution that none of the other Champions are willing to choose.)
The same could also be stated when the Champions elevated Borys to a fully developed dragon. Without the Dark Lens the other Champions were left to their own designs on how to progress with the metamorphosis. The only energy that was equal to the focused power of the sun was that of sentient life force. Makes sense since most is life sustained by the sun in some form. First to figure this out was Dregoth. Hence why he is further along than the other SKs. It could be that after the SKs slew him they looted his notes and developed their own versions of the metamorphosis spell.
To delve into this deeper, it could be that when Borys rewarded the remaining Champions by turning them into "sorcerer kings" he brought them to the second stage of the metamorphosis thru the use of the Dark Lens.
Just thinking out loud here, but this seems to make sense.
In the novel, the Champions do not use spells to advance in their metamorphosis: the process is ongoing and unstoppable, installed in each Champion by Rajaat as part of the Champion makeup (other elements include templar magic and a few other details).
I thought this was just in Hamanu's case and that the rest of the SKs had to still cast spells and what not.
I thought this was just in Hamanu's case and that the rest of the SKs had to still cast spells and what not.
Again, that is people's efforts to marry RaFoaDK with the setting/other novels, but they don't marry.
Within the novel, Hamanu is not mistaken about the other Champions: they all are dragons, and they all advance in the metamorphosis without casting metamorphosis spells.
Pretty much all that has been said on these boards about RaFoaDK's Hamanu is a result of board members attempting to reconcile inconsistencies between that novel and the setting/other novels. If you never read the novel, or don't much recall what went down in it, be prepared for a surpise when you read it again one day.
Pretty much all that has been said on these boards about RaFoaDK's Hamanu is a result of board members attempting to reconcile inconsistencies between that novel and the setting/other novels. If you never read the novel, or don't much recall what went down in it, be prepared for a surpise when you read it again one day.
Thats one book I won't be re-reading. The first time was good enough and I don't use much of it as canon for my campaign.
Again, that is people's efforts to marry RaFoaDK with the setting/other novels, but they don't marry.
What Penn's saying is that it's my personal take I put up in the inconsistancies discussions that others liked as well. All an effort, like he said to make things work out right. The general idea behind making it a special exception for Hamanu, is that he could very easily believe that the other Champions are also advancing automatically like he is--the Champions of Rajaat don't really have "Dragon Metamorphosis Support Groups", or really have much smalltalk between each other. So it's possible they each misconceive one another in a number of different ways.
But yea, the novel has it that the Templar spells were gifted from Rajaat, as was the dragon metamorphosis. And the metamorphosis was an automatic progression, not something in done in a staged series of spells. Personally, I like to go through and find solutions that are flavorful, but also work out as logically plausable. Of course, each person has their own unique take on things, making for the differences in how every person on this forum view Dark Sun.
*just a polite question, please do not hurt me or poke at me with sharp sticks
*Really cool subject, but I have to ask,” What is the point of all the theorizing?" Does it really make a difference on the setting within the current time?
*just a polite question, please do not hurt me or poke at me with sharp sticks
It's fun. For me at least.
I never read the books and this gives me loads of info and ideas.
All kinds of historical misinformation, legends and crazy old Hermit stories that i can use to trow in for flavor for the players and not only that but think about all the info you have to direct or misdirect a player wanting to become a dragon.
you can have the players running around for a long time looking for some scraps on good information. You know actually make them role play the research and transformation.
It's fun. For me at least.
Same here. I'd prefer to discuss topics like this rather than rules mechanics anyday.
Within the novel, Hamanu is not mistaken about the other Champions: they all are dragons, and they all advance in the metamorphosis without casting metamorphosis spells.
Doesn't it also say that it is Hamanu's use of his powers that drives the metamorphosis? Even granting templar spells moves it forward slightly and any major spellcasting has quite an effect.
If that is true for all the sorceror kings, and they are all as reluctant as Hamanu to progress (perhaps becasue they are ignorant of the result or because they fear the rage that Borys went through) then it offers a neat explanation of why each sorceror king gathers a city and armies around them and isn't going out casting epic spells or forging new magical items.
Given that, you might want to incorporate such a thing in the dragon prestige class (perhaps just saying that once a level in dragon has been taken then a character cannot take levels in any other class) or just say that it is a feature added by Rajaat to ensure his champions transformed and didn't remain human.
Doesn't it also say that it is Hamanu's use of his powers that drives the metamorphosis? Even granting templar spells moves it forward slightly and any major spellcasting has quite an effect.
Yes, it does say that, why above I used the term "metamorphosis spells" so as to differentiate both spell uses.
If that is true for all the sorceror kings, and they are all as reluctant as Hamanu to progress (perhaps becasue they are ignorant of the result or because they fear the rage that Borys went through) then it offers a neat explanation of why each sorceror king gathers a city and armies around them and isn't going out casting epic spells or forging new magical items.
You got it.
I feel that explanation from RaFoaDK is better than the setting's/other novels' explanations of why the SKs have been sitting on their arses for 2,000 years.
Because, really, beings that powerful should go all Forgetten Realms over the place, create floating castles and insane stuff like that, and don't tell me the fear of laying waste to what's left of the environment is what stops them from doing so because that's what groves of trees of life are there for.
Given that, you might want to incorporate such a thing in the dragon prestige class (perhaps just saying that once a level in dragon has been taken then a character cannot take levels in any other class) or just say that it is a feature added by Rajaat to ensure his champions transformed and didn't remain human.
The official athas.org stance is that the SKs advance through the metamorphosis using spells, so forget what you read in RaFoaDK.
Also, preventing people from advancing in other classes is a no go in 3E. The worst you can do is limitations like the monk's or paladin's multiclass restrictions.
As for the part of Rajaat ensuring his Champions kept transforming more and more into dragons...maybe the epic bureau will do something about that with the Champion template.
Newer dragons would not have had access to this artifact and therefore would have had to modify the spell, breaking it down in progressive stages where they would gain the power (XP) and then burn it to fuel their advancement within the metamorphosis. This would further distinguish the SK's from other dragons in their unique status.
Also, using this line of thought, it would be reasonable to see why Kalak and Kalid-Ma tied to speed up the process by using the modified version of the spell to make the jump from stage 1 or whatever to stage 10. I see that the regular progression of the Sk's as being a rather slow evolution from stages and they wanted the power now. So it may be that under the method that the Sk's usually advance there is no animalistic period and no rage, which would explain why there is nothing about Dregoth flipping out. The animalistic rage only occurs when the modified spell is used or when the subject jumps several stages (i.e. this is why Borys flipped out)
As for Dregoth- using this theory, he would have never suffered the rage, and was somehow able to speed his progression. The other SK's seeing his almost to the 10th stage, which they had only experienced with the transformation of Borys, mistakenly assumed that Dregoth would flip out upon reaching stage 10 and therefore killed him, under that mistaken assumption.
Any thoughts on this?
I'm far more inclined to have all the SK's be needig to cast the various stage spells...
Agreed. Why make a whole new AB rules set for the SKs?
I have no preference either way due to the fact that the SK's are overwhelmingly powerful the way they are now. My theory is just one that would draw a more distinct line between the old and new dragons and has no basis for game mechanics.Agreed. Why make a whole new AB rules set for the SKs?
I like to keep Hamanu distinct from the others, because there's more than one reference to his being "unique".
Hey- I was just throwing out my two cents to stir the pot so to speak.
The line of being Champions and the ability to grant divine spells is enough for me :P
I like to keep Hamanu distinct from the others, because there's more than one reference to his being "unique".
I think Hamanu's uniqueness stems more from the process that Rajaat used in making him a Champion rather than his draconic nature and his approch to the metamorphosis.
I think Hamanu's uniqueness stems more from the process that Rajaat used in making him a Champion rather than his draconic nature and his approch to the metamorphosis.
Agreed. However I really do like how Abbey had portrayed him as slowly transforming inevitably into a full dragon. I see him as being Rajaat's "final solution" to the problems he sees in the world. Hamanu advances eventually into stages of dragonhood that have animalistic rampages, and with his hunger for destruction, combined with Rajaat's meddling in the dragon metamorphosis, I think it results in Hamanu going into a rampage period he'll never get out of, and he will scoure (sic?) all life from the Tablelands, thus ensuring Rajaat's victory. I have Hamanu being so scared of what he feels he is becoming, that he does everything he can to impede and slow inevitability. He also is regularly seen on the front lines of a battlefield whenever Urik goes to war, because it doesn't transform him as fast in the metamorphosis if he physically goes into battle (and avoids using his magic and psionics). Of course, for my campaigns, I have Hamanu as a Sorcerer as well (rather than Wizard), because I feel that Rajaat gifted him with arcane magic, rather than him really learning anything specifically. All in all, I have Hamanu as notably different than the others. He's the proverbial reluctant wolf in sheep's clothing, or the cleverly-disguised tactical nuclear warhead with a hair trigger detonator.
Yes, it can be simpler just to make it part of his special Champion of Rajaat template. I just like the idea of having the Dragon metamorphosis tied to that template as well--that he was not made into a stage-1 dragon like the others by Borys, rather Rajaat took the spell process which Dregoth had developed, and modified it to suit his own purposes through Hamanu. It's also one of the reasons I have him being willing to remain in the Hollow (that's right, willing) -- he knows Hamanu will finish his work for him. And after two milennia of being trapped in the Hollow, Rajaat has learned the power of patience.
Newer dragons would not have had access to this artifact and therefore would have had to modify the spell, breaking it down in progressive stages where they would gain the power (XP) and then burn it to fuel their advancement within the metamorphosis. This would further distinguish the SK's from other dragons in their unique status.
I agree with that, I know as was said that Athas.org states that the rules they came up with is what the current SK's use to further their metamorphosis, but I believe that may change when the champion templates are released.. (at least as far as the need to cast a spell is concerned). I also believe that template will alter when they finalise both the templates for the sun wizard, and a special template for Hammanu..
I'm far more inclined to have all the SK's be needig to cast the various stage spells except Hamanu, who has been more or less terrified of what he is becoming, and only thinks the other SK's are in the same situation as he is
---
Of course, for my campaigns, I have Hamanu as a Sorcerer as well (rather than Wizard), because I feel that Rajaat gifted him with arcane magic, rather than him really learning anything specifically
I can go either way... either the other SK's cast the spell, or not, but in the end, Hamannu doesn't need to.. and I also have Hamannu as a Sorceror. I rather consider Hamannu closer to a true dragon of Other worlds than any other SK of Athas.. At least in that, his abilities have become a part of his nature, rather than learned skills and talents everyone else.. Just as a Dragon of any other campaign world can have magic or psionics.. Hamannu's powers are inate and not built off training.. though he has since learned much of their uses and function..
I label Hamannu a True Dragon, in embryo.. The sorceror part fits especially well, imagine, his power in magic and psionics are a function of his will, and he is an outstanding leader (even if he's evil.. he rallied borys to his side, and he always wins in war..) plus his innate sensing of the world around him via his sorceror side gives him a more connected feel, in my opinion, of magic.. much more natural and fitting a defiler... I also consider him a True Defiler as well.. (I use these True names to basically say he's an enhanced version :P )
I feel that explanation from RaFoaDK is better than the setting's/other novels' explanations of why the SKs have been sitting on their arses for 2,000 years.
Because, really, beings that powerful should go all Forgetten Realms over the place, create floating castles and insane stuff like that, and don't tell me the fear of laying waste to what's left of the environment is what stops them from doing so because that's what groves of trees of life are there for.
Also true..
I think Dregoth was knowledgeable enough about the metamorphosis, especially after his studies in giustenal, that he was able to hold the madnes at bay.. I think its possible he could have started on his path to dragonhood before meeting rajaat, but even if not, he was the most advanced of the champions when they fought rajaat.. though borys being a replacement champion being second place is a mystery.. though he did nearly destroy his race and dwarves are hardy types, like giants..
I believe that Rajaat formed both the Dragon and preserver metamorphosis spells while in the Pristine Tower before teaching anyone else magic.. reason being is he was continuing his studies from the forest at the base of the mountains (that later became a swamp).. if you recall he was trying to transform either his body or his spirit into something grand.. he failed.. and after he studied at the tower refining magic into defiling and preserving.. then comes the two metamorophosis spells we know today. (The one granting mostly physical enhancements.. the other greatly enhancing mental ones..) you'll recall the original Avangion gave several bonuses to Wisdom.. (an attribute often associated with Clerics and the Divine.. and hence.. spiritual peoples :P) Also.. with the new stuff on the boards.. Avangions are becoming insubstancial Etherial energy beings.. that works in a semblence of being a spirit also.. further fitting what I stated
But all that asside.. I don't know if anyone really answered my original question.. (though everything posted has been very fun to read.. hence my overlong tangent replies ;) ) Some feel Dregoth designed the metamorphosis.. "why" what in his history supports that belief?? Are poeple taking his later knowledge of life shaping used to make the Dray in account and assuming he also therefore made the metamorphosis?? What is the element in his history that grants him the suspician that he alone crafted the spell???
Agreed. However I really do like how Abbey had portrayed him as slowly transforming inevitably into a full dragon. I see him as being Rajaat's "final solution" to the problems he sees in the world. Hamanu advances eventually into stages of dragonhood that have animalistic rampages, and with his hunger for destruction, combined with Rajaat's meddling in the dragon metamorphosis, I think it results in Hamanu going into a rampage period he'll never get out of, and he will scoure (sic?) all life from the Tablelands, thus ensuring Rajaat's victory. I have Hamanu being so scared of what he feels he is becoming, that he does everything he can to impede and slow inevitability. He also is regularly seen on the front lines of a battlefield whenever Urik goes to war, because it doesn't transform him as fast in the metamorphosis if he physically goes into battle (and avoids using his magic and psionics). Of course, for my campaigns, I have Hamanu as a Sorcerer as well (rather than Wizard), because I feel that Rajaat gifted him with arcane magic, rather than him really learning anything specifically. All in all, I have Hamanu as notably different than the others. He's the proverbial reluctant wolf in sheep's clothing, or the cleverly-disguised tactical nuclear warhead with a hair trigger detonator.
Yes, it can be simpler just to make it part of his special Champion of Rajaat template. I just like the idea of having the Dragon metamorphosis tied to that template as well--that he was not made into a stage-1 dragon like the others by Borys, rather Rajaat took the spell process which Dregoth had developed, and modified it to suit his own purposes through Hamanu. It's also one of the reasons I have him being willing to remain in the Hollow (that's right, willing) -- he knows Hamanu will finish his work for him. And after two milennia of being trapped in the Hollow, Rajaat has learned the power of patience.
Agreed, and don't forget Rajaat is already immortal so all he has is time...
As far as the Champion Template goes, I think it should be capable of standing alone, and then have aditional effects when added to a Dragon Metamorphosis spell, or at least, it should be able to affect that process (perhaps removing the need for repetative spellcasting).
Is there a way to do that with epic spells? a sort of inherent contingency spell? enacting the next stage in a spell series when the requisites are met? (sidestepping material components and replacing them with life energy aka XP) Any thoughts on that??
Agreed, he does have time, probably moreso than Athas itself.. Odds are, all of Athas could go to waste, and he would then be released to restore a crumbling world (He wouldn't need a plant or a rodent to suck life from to power his spells). At that point he could indeed begin anew.. so though Rajaat is sort of the world's warbringer and destroyer, he is also a safety net should the defilers go to far... heck, some groups could decide that he started all this just to plunge Athas into near destruction, to teach its people a lesson not yet learned by the Ancient Halflings or its current peoples.. to respect life around you, because its fragile and easily broken.. he could have chosen the path of the villain, a catalyst in forcing a lessen upon a dense planet full of thickheaded life forms.. But that's way out there, :P
You are portraying Rajaat as somewhat sane. The materials point to him being rather insane, and his methods are at the very least machiavellian, and I'm sorry, but desiring the genocide of every race he deems "unnatural" just doesn't sound like someone really wanting to fix things right. It sounds like some misguided and horribly wrong method that will only leave a barren, dead world.
As far as the Champion Template goes, I think it should be capable of standing alone, and then have aditional effects when added to a Dragon Metamorphosis spell, or at least, it should be able to affect that process (perhaps removing the need for repetative spellcasting).
I don't agree, however. :P Not even with my vision of Hamanu.
Is there a way to do that with epic spells? a sort of inherent contingency spell? enacting the next stage in a spell series when the requisites are met? (sidestepping material components and replacing them with life energy aka XP) Any thoughts on that??
Not that I am aware of. The whole point of the 10-stage process is that it takes time and money to research, develop, and then to cast each spell. They are not easy to achieve, and should not be mitigated into being nothing more than footnotes in the person's development into a dragon.
Couldn't a wannabe dragon use a dead dragon's body as a mitigating factor to his dragon metamorphosis spell, or some such extreme factor?
Xlorep, after reading the epic spell section in the ELH, I've wondered if its possible to find or develop...specific mitigating factors. Dunno if I'm expressing myself right: all the mitigating factors are listed in the ELH, and there is one or more new factors for the new metamorphosis seed, so is it possible to add new mitigating factors to those listed in the sources above? What if I want to say that the wannabe avangion Amiska adds the conjunct moons (occurs every 11 years) as a mitigating factor to her avangion metamorphosis spell...is that even possible?
Couldn't a wannabe dragon use a dead dragon's body as a mitigating factor to his dragon metamorphosis spell, or some such extreme factor?
Actually rules for that already exist in the ELH..... they are called ad hoc factors. They are at the DM's discretion only.
What I wonder is if these factors could be applied on the fly, meaning that you design a spell to have a number of specific factors, and then decide to cast said spell during the conjunct moons (not a factor initially built in) so as to get -5 to the Spellcraft DC, is that possible?
Ok, found it, page 89. Now I recall this short mention of ad-hoc factors.
What I wonder is if these factors could be applied on the fly, meaning that you design a spell to have a number of specific factors, and then decide to cast said spell during the conjunct moons (not a factor initially built in) so as to get -5 to the Spellcraft DC, is that possible?
I do not think the term "on the fly" could or should ever be associated with Epic spells. They are way too powerful and very, very structured to try an monkey with them as you are casting.
IIRC, and I could be wrong, you cannot even apply metamagic feats to epic spells, so changing them up as you go should not be allowed either.
Like I said before, the epic spells are really structured, and actually works or arcane/divine art, so IMO it would just be bad form to "apply on the fly" with these spells.
You are portraying Rajaat as somewhat sane. The materials point to him being rather insane, and his methods are at the very least machiavellian, and I'm sorry, but desiring the genocide of every race he deems "unnatural" just doesn't sound like someone really wanting to fix things right. It sounds like some misguided and horribly wrong method that will only leave a barren, dead world.
Xlore, I was just going to respond here, but this one has the potential to interesting topic of its own. Please check out the Rajaat's Sanity thread I'll be starting in a few minutes.
That is it. Metamagic does not effect epic spells, and they have to be researched specifically.... so to make a version of the defiler metamorphosis that uses the a dragons body as a mitigating ad hoc factor, would literally require you to design a whole new spell.
Though this just gave me a really interesting idea for something for epic spellcasters (most likely part of a PrC) the ability to modify epic spells..... an epic spell mastery if you will. I am thinking something along the lines of being able to add mitigating factors to epic spells you have already learned "on the fly" per say. Or even make it mastery of specific seeds.... so that it allows you to change the seed factors of a specific spell on the fly..... I will have to look at it for feesibility.... but this might be a nice addition to my d20 modern rules....
thank you
Actually there is only one thing on epic spells at all that can be done "on the fly" as it were. And that is if it is a ritual spell, if one of the extra spellcasters fails to contribute their spell, the caster still gets to try for the spell at the higher DC.
That is it. Metamagic does not effect epic spells, and they have to be researched specifically.... so to make a version of the defiler metamorphosis that uses the a dragons body as a mitigating ad hoc factor, would literally require you to design a whole new spell.
Though this just gave me a really interesting idea for something for epic spellcasters (most likely part of a PrC) the ability to modify epic spells..... an epic spell mastery if you will. I am thinking something along the lines of being able to add mitigating factors to epic spells you have already learned "on the fly" per say. Or even make it mastery of specific seeds.... so that it allows you to change the seed factors of a specific spell on the fly..... I will have to look at it for feesibility.... but this might be a nice addition to my d20 modern rules....
thank you
Jebus Lord Almighty!
If you pull this off, it will open the door for new mitigating factors such as conjunct moons, the black waters ;), AB organic material, whatever, which would be real cool and DMs would love it.
Its adventure hooks in a can for AB PCs, or for campaings where the PCs orbit an AB NPC.
The epic bureau could do a list of mitigating factors they thought of, and the boards could contribute ideas.
Jebus Lord Almighty!
If you pull this off, it will open the door for new mitigating factors such as conjunct moons, the black waters ;), AB organic material, whatever, which would be real cool and DMs would love it.
Its adventure hooks in a can for AB PCs, or for campaings where the PCs orbit an AB NPC.
The epic bureau could do a list of mitigating factors they thought of, and the boards could contribute ideas.
I will look at how easily it can be used to break rules.... and see how it can be limited.... it may be an idea for an epic spell effecting psionic enchantment even, as that seems to be a weak spot on psionic enchantments so far. (but if I work on it that way it is going to be linked to the stage of the AB.... ie something like a dragon can modify up to 10 points of final DC of an epic spell on the fly per stage they are in...... this gives a massive reason to complete the metamorphosis as well....)
However this is just an idea at this point and I plan to go over it fully on just a feesability standpoint before passing it over to the epic bureau to see if it is something we want to do.
Agreed. However I really do like how Abbey had portrayed him as slowly transforming inevitably into a full dragon.
/snip/
I have Hamanu being so scared of what he feels he is becoming, that he does everything he can to impede and slow inevitability. He also is regularly seen on the front lines of a battlefield whenever Urik goes to war, because it doesn't transform him as fast in the metamorphosis if he physically goes into battle (and avoids using his magic and psionics).
Hello Xlor, got a question for ya'. However, let me first say that I'm in agreement with, I think, every one of your ideas for Hamanu (the ones I'm remembering, anyways). They seem really well thought out and I like that they add so much to his character, and I really enjoy that you've endeavored to incorporate many of the ideas from Abbeys novels.
As for the question, though - it occurs to me that in The Crimson Legion, Hamanu casts several spells in reletively short order. So, I'm wondering if you've given any thoughts on why this should be the case, or if you simply ignore it for not fitting in with "the master plan"?
Besides, I don't think Hamanu is pulling a Scroodge, counting every spell level he casts. I'd say he limits his use of higher level spells on a daily basis, but has not put a stop on using magic per say.
Hello Xlor, got a question for ya'. However, let me first say that I'm in agreement with, I think, every one of your ideas for Hamanu (the ones I'm remembering, anyways). They seem really well thought out and I like that they add so much to his character, and I really enjoy that you've endeavored to incorporate many of the ideas from Abbeys novels.
As for the question, though - it occurs to me that in The Crimson Legion, Hamanu casts several spells in reletively short order. So, I'm wondering if you've given any thoughts on why this should be the case, or if you simply ignore it for not fitting in with "the master plan"?
Well, Hamanu, while terrified of his abilities and what he is becoming, still will defend Urik with his last dying breath. I think it was a matter of prioritizing the situation, and found that using the little magic he did there to make a point, and send a definite message to Tyr. Hamanu has taken Urik under his wing--it's all he has any more. Sure, he's rough, but honestly, he tends to see Urik as his children, and his home. You step in on his home, and assault Urik with an army, he will do everything he possibly can do in order to eliminate that threat. Even an abusive parent will [conceivably] lash out and kill whoever else harms their child. He could have easily decided that the protection of Urik was worth using a little of his power, and advancing a little more as a Dragon.
I think Kal's idea about the rage portion of the metamorphosis is extremely incitefull. All the incidences of animalistic rage by dragons in the setting has been because of an excellerated transformation. Of course there are only two examples, but still the one example of a dragon undergoing the metamorphosis one stage at a time (Dregoth) until the higher stages of dragonhood didn't expirence any documented period of animalistic rage. Perhaps the changes wrought by the transformation are simply too much to handle all at once, but can be handled one step at a time by a strong willed mind.
two examples of dragon transformation? borys and.... ?
two examples of dragon transformation? borys and.... ?
I'm curious too. Kalid-Ma went to stage-10 instantly, but also went comatose (in Ravenloft) or was totally butchered (in Dark Sun) Kalak was in the midst of the process when he got himself killed. In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, it claims that Hamanu went to stage-10, but not everyone (including myself) agrees with that concept, and as such, it is the part of the novel that is the least reconcilable with the setting, therefore frequently excluded (in my experience).
I'm curious too. Kalid-Ma went to stage-10 instantly, but also went comatose (in Ravenloft) or was totally butchered (in Dark Sun) Kalak was in the midst of the process when he got himself killed. In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, it claims that Hamanu went to stage-10, but not everyone (including myself) agrees with that concept, and as such, it is the part of the novel that is the least reconcilable with the setting, therefore frequently excluded (in my experience).
Absolutely, in fact i pretend the last chapter describing Hamanu's transformation into a Dragon didn't happen as described. I have it that he Sadira, Lalali Puy, and Nibeny retrieved the Dark Lens from the lava and moved it to a more secure location, burying it deep within the Sea of Silt. Much like when Hamanu tossed the Scorcher into the Sea of Silt, this time they took it a step further and actively buried the artifact, and with all of them each laying wards against its retrieval by any of them, its likely it will remain there for a long, long time. Thus the proximity to the Hollow is resolved and the SK's and Sadira together were able to reinforce the wards on Rajaat's prison. They work together not because they like or respect eachother, but only for pragmatic reasons of regional stability.
Anyway thats my take on the matter
Absolutely, in fact i pretend the last chapter describing Hamanu's transformation into a Dragon didn't happen as described. I have it that he Sadira, Lalali Puy, and Nibeny retrieved the Dark Lens from the lava and moved it to a more secure location, burying it deep within the Sea of Silt. Much like when Hamanu tossed the Scorcher into the Sea of Silt, this time they took it a step further and actively buried the artifact, and with all of them each laying wards against its retrieval by any of them, its likely it will remain there for a long, long time. Thus the proximity to the Hollow is resolved and the SK's and Sadira together were able to reinforce the wards on Rajaat's prison. They work together not because they like or respect eachother, but only for pragmatic reasons of regional stability.
Anyway thats my take on the matter
I just have it that it never happened. The whole need or process for which Hamanu supposedly needed to become a Dragon never happened. Rajaat, in my view, didn't try and escape. I have Rajaat currently "cooling his heels" in the Hollow while he completes his total spread of influence through The Black, and solidifies his alliances/pacts with the four paraelemental planes, plus finishes forging for himself a spanking new set of bones made of solid obsidian forged from the Cerulean Storm pouring down upon the Valeey of Dust and Fire. Obsidian Bones that now have the Dark Lens integrated as part of them.
Basically--Sadira unwittingly played exactly into Rajaat's hand. She was modified specifically by Rajaat's will into the "Sun Wizard"--can really do absolutely nothing to Rajaat directly, and had the brilliant idea of taking one of Athas' most powerful artifacts, and placing it solidly within Rajaat's grasp. His new skeleton, forged from the mix of Magma and Rain, surrounded by Silt, and then fueled by the Sun will make Rajaat into the embodiment of the four Paraelemental powers. With his will having infiltrated and blended in with the Black, where Andropinis is being transformed into nothing bu an extension of Rajaat's Will as well, no matter how much he resists. Rajaat in my timeline eventually, once everything is completed, will reappear--more powerful than he ever was before, achieving the closest thing to true deity, and being completely unstoppable. He also will totally catch the Tablelands, and the Sorcerer-Kings off gaurd.
Meanwhile, Rajaat's ticking timebomb--Hamanu--slowly and inexorably advances down the path that Rajaat ingrained in him. Hamanu, the Final Champion, who when he reaches the point of Animalistic Rampage, will feed on all Humans--including the other Sorcerer-Kings, as well as all other Rebirth races, scouring the land in accordance with Rajaat's plan. Of course, this basically will mean the end of the world, as Rajaat's plan is inherently flawed in my view.
In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, it claims that Hamanu went to stage-10, but not everyone (including myself) agrees with that concept, and as such, it is the part of the novel that is the least reconcilable with the setting, therefore frequently excluded (in my experience).
I hope you're not saying the concept is not internaly consistant within the novel! Otherwise I understand what you're saying: you're basing your comment on the same part of the novel that says Hamanu advances automatically as a dragon.
As to weither Hamanu was a full dragon in the end...its not evident and is not meant to be: the animalistic rage catches up with him, or the armies that he consumed for the transformatiuon were not enough, and the pain of being incomplete induced animalistic rage.
I hope you're not saying the concept is not internaly consistant within the novel! Otherwise I understand what you're saying: you're basing your comment on the same part of the novel that says Hamanu advances automatically as a dragon.
As to weither Hamanu was a full dragon in the end...its not evident and is not meant to be: the animalistic rage catches up with him, or the armies that he consumed for the transformatiuon were not enough, and the pain of being incomplete induced animalistic rage.
Even so, I don't like the idea that he succumbed to Animalistic Rampage. I prefer a King Hamanu still alive, kicking, and quite mentally capable to be running Urik. There's already been a mass attrition rate in Sorcerer-Kings across the Tablelands. I'm willing to live with Kalak, Tektuktitulay and Ablach-Re biting the dust, with Andropinis being (literally and figuratively) put on ice. I'm willing to live with Borys the Dragon being slain. To me, that mixes up the setting nicely, making the status-quo no longer quite functioning correctly--and I like to drive it home to my players that the loss of these notable figures is not necessarily a good thing. There's 3 Sorcerer-Kings still around, each reacting differently to the events, each city-state has been made even more separate and distinct due to the massive changes that occured. For me, killing off another Sorcerer-King would begin to lose the overall effect.
Urik needs Hamanu in my book, so him going all animalistic rampaging and stuff just doesn't fit for me. Him having a secret, hidden truth about himself that he keeps locked away deep--a secret that he himself is utterly terrified of to the point that he wraps illusions around himself not only for the sake of his people, but for himself as well, that build's character. That he's a sort of ticking-timebomb, he's a different breed of Champion all together from the others--and he doesn't let them know this (even though, each has their suspicions about him), that's a quality I like to bring out. For me, Rise and Fall did a great job filling out the character and profile for Hamanu. I did not like that the book then goes and trashes him in short order after setting him up and filling in tons of details.
Can anyone tell me why they think Dregoth was so much further advanced in his metamorphosis than the other SK's???
Because as others have suggested, he invented the process and has been progressing along it since before he was even made into a champion.
Or, If you don't like that
Because he was using his Planar Gateway to travel to other worlds where he could gather resources and destroy at his leisure, these worlds could even have a different rate for the flow of time.
Can anyone tell me why they think Dregoth was so much further advanced in his metamorphosis than the other SK's???
2E materials on him clearly state that he was at 29th level, which would translate into 9th-stage metamorphosis--one step away from complete. And 4 stages already through the "animalistic rampage" period, without any references at all about him going really hog-wild on it. So, best guess is he found some way to alleviate himself of the worst of that insanity (while noting that his Megalomania really is yet another form of insanity, but it is significantly different from wild chaotic instinct-ridden rampages).
Daskinor!
That's right, the mad SK.. why is he mad?? Because Dregoth is using him to bottle up the madness (which spills over to his city of course ;) ) I like the idea
There are psionic powers that pass pain and physical damage onto another being, without their concent.. why not madness as well?? Epic Psionics would certainly help.. And is not the physical pain part of what enrages a dragon anyway? Sounds reasonable to me.. any thoughts on that??I like the idea of gathering resources and energy from other planes of existence, even the time flow aspect.. but a thought occured to me regarding the escape of madness..
Daskinor!
That's right, the mad SK.. why is he mad?? Because Dregoth is using him to bottle up the madness (which spills over to his city of course ;) ) I like the idea
That is a really cool idea Lyric!
There are psionic powers that pass pain and physical damage onto another being, without their concent.. why not madness as well?? Epic Psionics would certainly help.. And is not the physical pain part of what enrages a dragon anyway? Sounds reasonable to me.. any thoughts on that??
You should add this to the Daskinor' Madness thread.
Where is Daskinor's Madness thread??? I'll try to add it there then..