Has anyone seen the evangelist class in Dragon issue 311? ("Evangelist" is a poor choice of a name for this class. When I first saw it, I thought it should be called a "mystic", and this was before the DLCS came out.) It's pretty much just like the mystic with one major difference. It gets two domains at first level, then it gains another domain at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. These extra domains serve to balance this class with the cleric it is a variant of.
Has anyone used this "evangelist" in place of the mystic in their Dragonlance campaigns? What do you think of it?
While I'm on the subject of mystics, there's another point I wish to bring up. Mystics tap into the power of the heart. They understand themselves and others. Wouldn't it make sense for them to have skills such as Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills? (They already have Diplomacy.) It makes sense to me because these skills are a matter of being able to read people, speak in ways that influence, etc. Someone who understands the workings of the heart should be well-placed to learn these skills.
If I might make a suggestion, I would look toward's Joe Mashuga's alternate mystic spell list. I think it keeps in tune with the flavor of the SAGA mystic while still being balanced.
Has anyone seen the evangelist class in Dragon issue 311?
The evangelist class from Dragon magazine is incredibly overpowered. I strongly discourage folks from using it to replace the mystic.
While I'm on the subject of mystics, there's another point I wish to bring up. Mystics tap into the power of the heart.
Actually, they tap into the power of ambient life magic as drawn through the emotional filter of the individual and the faith paradigm they ascribe to. They don't necessarily have any better understanding of other people's emotions; the Citadel of Light taught that as a function of its mission to spread peace and understanding together with mysticism and the ways of the old gods, but your average mystic is not an empath.
Cheers,
Cam
) as his domain. He has yet to struggle in the game as a mystic. His strengths are not in the physical side of things, but more to the side of creative protection and buffing, the guy does not heal all that often. In fact, his most memorable healing display was when our party ogre was under the control of the driad, and that same ogre then tried to cut Paros into pretty ribbons, effectly taking him from 28 hp to 1 in a single strike.In the long run, when in play, I see nothing wrong with the Mystic at all. Its a decent class that comes across poorly on paper, but then again so does the noble and thats my new favorite of all time. Building a good mystic is just like building any other class effectively, it just takes time and observation to know what must be overcome through feats and other tricks.
The evangelist class from Dragon magazine is incredibly overpowered. I strongly discourage folks from using it to replace the mystic.
Do you think that a compromise would be okay? Perhaps starting with two domains, then gaining one at 10th level, and one at 20th? Or something else? (I'm not sure if I would have said the evangelist looks incredibly overpowered, but it does look somewhat powerful nonetheless.)
The mystic still looks underpowered to me. But perhaps I should explain how I understand "balance" in the game. Balance is not absolute. It depends on the details of the campaign. I've played in games where the spellcasters dominated the game, and I've played in games where the warriors dominate (the combat-oriented classes, not the NPC class, ;)). I've also played in campaigns where they were pretty much balanced. So, Kalanth, if the mystic as presented in the DLCS is working in your campaign, that's great. But they've somehow come across as weak in the style of play of my current group.
Actually, they tap into the power of ambient life magic as drawn through the emotional filter of the individual and the faith paradigm they ascribe to. They don't necessarily have any better understanding of other people's emotions; the Citadel of Light taught that as a function of its mission to spread peace and understanding together with mysticism and the ways of the old gods, but your average mystic is not an empath.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah, okay. Thanks.
Do you think that a compromise would be okay? Perhaps starting with two domains, then gaining one at 10th level, and one at 20th? Or something else? (I'm not sure if I would have said the evangelist looks incredibly overpowered, but it does look somewhat powerful nonetheless.)
It depends on whether you use the variant in Holy Orders which changes how domain spells work for clerics. If you use that variant (which I use in my own campaigns), clerics can give up any prepared spell in order to cast one of their two domain spells of that level. They don't get a bonus domain spell per day, however, and can't spontaneous cure or inflict (unless they have the Healing or Destruction domains). This would make the really big feature of the mystic - casting their domain spells more than once per day, which clerics can't do - a little less unique. In such a case, I would shoot for something else with the mystic other than bonus domains.
If you don't use the cleric variant, I would consider allowing them another domain at 6th (when they can cast 3rd-level spells) and then again at 12th. Look for breakpoints in their progression. Don't give them two to start with, though - they're just fine at low levels.
Cheers,
Cam
Don't give them two to start with, though - they're just fine at low levels.
But clerics seem fine at low levels, and they get two domains. Everything you say does make sense, Cam, but the more I think about it in the context of my game, I like the idea of giving them two domains at first level.
Also, while I acknowledge your point about mystics using ambient life magic, I prefer the idea (again, the more I think about it) that they tap into their own power because they have a deeper understanding of the human (or elven, or dwarven, etc) heart. So in addition to giving them two domains, I think I'd be happy giving them Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills. Whether they use these skills as the Citadel Mystics do (Diplomacy) or use them to manipulate people for their own ends (Bluff and Intimidate) is up to the individual mystic. I'm also almost tempted to give them a couple more skill points per level, but I'm not sure if that's appropriate.
I'm simply not one for canon. I take what I like, and change the rest as suits my fancy. I start with the flavor that I like, and I change the game mechanics to suit that flavor (kinda like how, in another thread, I said I prefer to have sorcerers using Intelligence rather than Charisma for spellcasting).
Nonetheless, this discussion was very helpful in my figuring out exactly what would work best for me. So thanks for the responses. I feel no need to suggest that what I come up with will work for anyone else. But if you wish to discuss this further, please do, as I'm often willing to change my mind.
Peace.
I'm simply not one for canon.
That's OK. I really can't do it any other way, so I appreciate your freedom to disagree with whatever the established truth says is the case.
Cheers,
Cam
That's OK. I really can't do it any other way, so I appreciate your freedom to disagree with whatever the established truth says is the case.
Cheers,
Cam
Then I see why you call it "truth". Not the label I'd use. ;)
However, I couldn't help notice something in the DLCS about the mystic (p. 47):
"Anyone who possesses the latent talent and the sensitivity required to harness the power of the heart [my emphasis] may become a mystic."
So here it says they tap into the power of the heart, rather than ambient life energy. Or how do you read this?
So here it says they tap into the power of the heart, rather than ambient life energy. Or how do you read this?
They call it the power of the heart in the books and novels, too. That's just a nice way of saying what I've been saying above. I might paint it in rather bland sorts of terms, but the mystic needs to be generic so that individual mystic characters can be specific and unique, if that makes any sense.
Cheers,
Cam
The only thing I MIGHT consider doing is bump the mystic one more spell per day at each spell level. Because Clerics have 1 more spell per day that Wizards (domain), and the Mysic spell progression is the same as a Sorcerer. Other than that, I've had no problem.
They call it the power of the heart in the books and novels, too. That's just a nice way of saying what I've been saying above. I might paint it in rather bland sorts of terms, but the mystic needs to be generic so that individual mystic characters can be specific and unique, if that makes any sense.
Cheers,
Cam
Wouldn't that be kinda like saying wizards need not be smart, but are just using magic power from the gods of magic, so that individual wizards can be specific and unique? They are using power from the gods of magic, but they need intelligence to do so. Nonetheless, individual wizards can still be unique.
Wouldn't that be kinda like saying wizards need not be smart, but are just using magic power from the gods of magic, so that individual wizards can be specific and unique? They are using power from the gods of magic, but they need intelligence to do so. Nonetheless, individual wizards can still be unique.
I think you missed my point. "The power of the heart" was a poetic description of what mystics drew upon, something that arose through the example of Goldmoon and Jasper Fireforge. It's how the good mystics describe what it is they do, where their magic comes from. What I am saying is that not all mystics will describe it in such a way, but all mystics do get their magic from drawing upon the living ambient magic of Krynn with their faith system and physical/spiritual selves as the channel. Make sense?
It's much like the Star Wars universe's Force, a living web of energy that binds all creatures, all souls, together. Each practitioner views this power in his or her own way, however, and that belief and emotional focus is what gives form and substance to the energy that they tap into. Call it the power of the heart, or the anima, or the lifeweb, or the darkness, or whatever you like, depending on your mystic's domain.
Cheers,
Cam
I think you missed my point. "The power of the heart" was a poetic description of what mystics drew upon, something that arose through the example of Goldmoon and Jasper Fireforge. It's how the good mystics describe what it is they do, where their magic comes from. What I am saying is that not all mystics will describe it in such a way, but all mystics do get their magic from drawing upon the living ambient magic of Krynn with their faith system and physical/spiritual selves as the channel. Make sense?
Yes, now I believe I see what you're saying, and how your interpretation differs from mine. That's cool.