When Stephan Karameikos the Third declares himself Duke, He dissolves both the Claim of Marilinev to what was sixty thousand gold a year in rent and he disolves its status as a Guild town ending the Control of the Guilds over the town. The Guilds which were under the control of the Wealthiest of Traladaran Merchant Families were also squeezing extra rent from the town populace of equal proportions to the Marilinev.
The Marilenev family having gone from sixty thousand gold coin in annual income to Just what was produced by its farming concerns is feeling economicly violated. This is why they decend into the first Marilinev Uprising. It wasn't just because Duke Stephan had challenged some historical precedence of Monarcy with the Marilinev "on the throne". It was because he had taken sixty thousand gold coin in annual income from them. He had also done the same to the Guild Houses.
Thats why they hate him to the point of wanting him dead. That explains the assassins in the night and the open Marilinev revolt. He had taken a source of income from the Rich.
Good idea. That thickens the plot when concerning the uprising I'm planning in the future of my campaign.
Ditto! This certainly adds an extra dimension to the history of Specularum. That is one part of Karameikos' history that I havent looked into so much either, so thanks for posting it yellowdingo. I see alot of adventure potential here!
Håvard
Ditto! This certainly adds an extra dimension to the history of Specularum. That is one part of Karameikos' history that I havent looked into so much either, so thanks for posting it yellowdingo. I see alot of adventure potential here!
I can't seem to find the AC2 adventure (Treasure of the Hideous One, IIRC), but the history portion of that adventure mentions a time when Karameikos led armies across the land prior to becoming a duke, but the time it puts is not in keeping with the timeframe of later products. I took it, then, that the Karameikos in question was one of Stephen's relatives (either father or grandfather, IIRC) in service to the Emperor in a time when they were subjugating Traladara. Gives a nice symmetry to Stephen later buying the land from the Empire and taking it over as his own.
I can't seem to find the AC2 adventure (Treasure of the Hideous One, IIRC), but the history portion of that adventure mentions a time when Karameikos led armies across the land prior to becoming a duke, but the time it puts is not in keeping with the timeframe of later products. I took it, then, that the Karameikos in question was one of Stephen's relatives (either father or grandfather, IIRC) in service to the Emperor in a time when they were subjugating Traladara. Gives a nice symmetry to Stephen later buying the land from the Empire and taking it over as his own.
Hmmm...I have that adventure somewhere. I even ran it at one point. Cant remember the details of the history though. I like the idea of Stefan and his ancestors being involved with the pacification of Traladara. They were probably more popular with the locals than most Thyatian warlords though, except maybe in Marilenev. In the Roman Empire it was quite common to give land to the soldiers and officers of the Legion as a reward for long and good service. Perhaps this was when Stefan made his counter offer and said that instead of only part of Traladara he would like the whole thing in exchange for giving his ancestral lands to the Emperor? Thincol would benefit from this too, both since Traladara was an unruly place and Machetos being prosperous, but also because he could then give away Machetos to someone he could control more easily than the Karameikos family.
Looks like the Karameikos timeline needs even more revisions. ;)
Thoughts?
Håvard
There is a Guild Town suddenly paying a fortune in rent to Baron Desmond Kelvin. Worse, He moves into the Guild Hall and erects a Castle in the middle of Town. Thats a ruthless oppressor.
c.880 AC: Stefan Karameikos I is born. (Supposition)
900 AC: Marilenev is a flourishing trade village of 500. The Empire of Thyatis moves on Marilenev, conquers it, and claims all of the Traladara region as a Thyatian protectorate. Marilenev is renamed "Specularum." (Gaz1)
Duke Stefan Karameikos II ("the Hermit"), leader of the Thyatian military forces in Traladara, sends an expeditionary unit to further explore the lands west of Marilenev. This unit, led by Colonel Rosentos, disappears shortly after reaching the village of Luln. They are never heard from again. (Treasure of the Hideous One, with slight modifications.)
948 AC: Stefan Karameikos III is born. (Gaz1)
957 AC: Lady Amanda Karameikos dies. (Gaz1)
965 AC: Stefan Karameikos III becomes an officer in the Thyatian cavalry. (Gaz1)
968 AC: Victor Karameikos dies. His son, Stefan Karameikos III succeeds him as Duke of Machetos. (Gaz1)
970 AC: Stefan Karameikos III sells his ancestral lands to the Emperor of Thyatis for independent rulership of the Traladara region, which is renamed the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. (Gaz1)
Thus, Stefan's grandfather was involved in the earliest Thyatian conquests in Traladara- the module seems to imply that it was Duke Stefan the Hermit that was ruling the lands, but obviously that wouldn't fit with the timelines that came later (it does explicitly state that the expedition of Rosentos took place 100 years ago).
Something that would help immensely- if anyone out there has the Kingdom of Karameikos boxed set, I understand that it has a Karameikos family tree? If someone with that could fill in a couple of dates and names- the birthdates of the elder Karameikos' (I and II), the name of Stefan's mother- that would facilitate this timeline greatly!
[EDIT] Went ahead and bought the ESD of K:KoA, and noticed some things. Firstly, there are (sadly) no dates on the family tree, so no pinpointing precisely when people were born/died.
Secondly, Stefan's father wasn't a Stefan, so it was probably his grandfather Stefan the II that was "the Hermit", and not some relative farther down the line. I modified the timeline to fit. Now to try and figure out where the Karameikos family might have first come to rule in Machetos.
Finally found "The Treasure of the Hideous One", so here is a rough timeline I made of the adventure:
Interesting! I am currently working on the history of the Penhaligon family/region, and I' interested to see how all of this fits in.
c.880 AC: Stefan Karameikos I is born. (Supposition)
900 AC: Marilenev is a flourishing trade village of 500. The Empire of Thyatis moves on Marilenev, conquers it, and claims all of the Traladara region as a Thyatian protectorate. Marilenev is renamed "Specularum." (Gaz1)
Duke Stefan Karameikos II ("the Hermit"), leader of the Thyatian military forces in Traladara, sends an expeditionary unit to further explore the lands west of Marilenev. This unit, led by Colonel Rosentos, disappears shortly after reaching the village of Luln. They are never heard from again. (Treasure of the Hideous One, with slight modifications.)
948 AC: Stefan Karameikos III is born. (Gaz1)
Given your notes about the Karameikos family below, this should as you say, probably be pushed back a generation. To figure out birth dates, I suggest assuming that each Karameikos is probably between 20-30 when his first son is born:
948: Stefan Karameikos III is born
918: Stefan's father Victor Karameikos is born
890: Stefan Karameikos II born (Stefan's grandfather)
860: Stefan Karameikos I is born., later marries a woman from the Hattian Von Hendriks family....
If Stefan Karameikos I was involved with the Thyatian invasion of Traladara as you suggest, then perhaps the Karameikos project is not something invented by Stefan III, but something that has been planned for generations in the Karameikos family?
Secondly, Stefan's father wasn't a Stefan, so it was probably his grandfather Stefan the II that was "the Hermit", and not some relative farther down the line. I modified the timeline to fit. Now to try and figure out where the Karameikos family might have first come to rule in Machetos.
Machetos could have been in the family for generations. Perhaps it could be a reward for conquering Traladara in the first place. Tying it to Stefan Karameikos I could be interesting. Not sure if Dawn of the Emperors shed any light on this, though it is doubtful.
In any case, using the names from Hideous One is definately a good idea! I assume both "The Hermit" and Rosentos are from there, right? That gives us a few more characters from that period to play around with....
Håvard
If Stefan Karameikos I was involved with the Thyatian invasion of Traladara as you suggest, then perhaps the Karameikos project is not something invented by Stefan III, but something that has been planned for generations in the Karameikos family?
Whoops! I got the numbers of my Karameikos' wrong! I meant to have Stefan II be the Duke that was involved in the pacification/conquest of the Traladarans, not the Ist.
According to the family tree, it was Stefan II's father, Boris, who married a von Hendriks, as well.
In any case, I like your suggestion that the Karameikos project may have been a long term family plan that finally came to fruition with Stefan III. Perhaps his grandfather, the IInd originally had the idea, but wasn't able to follow through with it, and his son Victor wasn't interested, but he shared his idea with his grandson before his death. Then, when Stefan came into power, he came back to the idea and followed up on it.
Machetos could have been in the family for generations. Perhaps it could be a reward for conquering Traladara in the first place. Tying it to Stefan Karameikos I could be interesting. Not sure if Dawn of the Emperors shed any light on this, though it is doubtful.
I was hoping it might have something myself, but no such luck. It could possibly have been awarded to Stefan II for his part in the conquest of Traladara, that would work, or it might go all the way back to Stefan I (about whom there is no information in K:KoA).
In any case, using the names from Hideous One is definately a good idea! I assume both "The Hermit" and Rosentos are from there, right? That gives us a few more characters from that period to play around with....
Yep- both of those characters are explicitly mentioned in the background of the module- Rosentos as the general that was sent to explore the western part of the land by Duke Stefan the Hermit 100 years ago.
977 AC: Desmond Kelvin II is born.
989 AC: Mustapha-ibn-Ibrahim is assigned to the Court of the Duke of Karameikos as Ambassador of the Emirates of Ylaruam.
990 AC: Desmond Kelvin II enters the Church of Karameikos.
993 AC: Mustapha-ibn-Ibrahim and the Lady Evelina Kelvin begin a passionate love affair.
995 AC: Confronted with irrefutable evidence of his wife's affair, Baron Desmond Kelvin I challenges his rival Ambassador Mustapha-ibn-Ibrahim to a duel. Kelvin is killed, and ibn-Ibrahim is extradited back to the Emirates of Ylaruam for his part in the scandal.
Desmond Kelvin II succeeds his father as Baron. Lady Evelina Kelvin joins a convent of the Church of Karameikos. The stoic Sheik Abdallah ibn Hamid is sent by the Emirates of Ylaruam as the new ambassador.
998 AC: Mustapha-ibn-Ibrahim is installed as Provincial Secretary, stationed in the village of Kirkuk in the Emirates of Ylaruam. (Gaz2)
One thing I noticed while just now doing this- the Kelvin names (both first and last) seem to be of English/Scottish origin rather than Italian, which suggests to me that the Kelvins may have come from the Isle of Dawn (specifically, either Caerdwicca or, more likely, Westrourke/Redstone) before coming to Thyatis.
Also, Desmond I is noted as a former Thyatian "officer and gentleman" who was of "crucial importance" to Stefan during the Marilenev rebellion. I imagine that he was probably in the military at the same time Stefan was (most likely cavalry, but possibly some other branch) and that he and Stefan served together in missions and formed a close friendship, thus his following Stefan over from Thyatis. Given the "gentleman" part, as well as the specific mention that Karameikos sought "second and third sons and daughters of the Thyatian aristocracy" that the Kelvins are landed (though not otherwise titled) nobles somewhere in mainland Thyatis (likely Machetos).
How about ideas on what it was like in the area that would later become the Barony of Kelvin. Was "Kelvin" also a Guild Town? It sits at a junction of rivers and roads on prime agricultural land.
There is a Guild Town suddenly paying a fortune in rent to Baron Desmond Kelvin. Worse, He moves into the Guild Hall and erects a Castle in the middle of Town. Thats a ruthless oppressor.
The only problem I could see with this scenario is that Desmond Kelvin I is described (somewhere- can't find the quote atm; K:KoA?) as being a good ruler, and his son hasn't quite lived up to that. Man, wish I could find that quote- I saw it earlier...
Of course, Gaz1 also says that Kelvin I liked to live lavishly (hence his palace), so even if he was more benevolent, he seems to have had a great degree of largesse.
In any case, most sources say that Kelvin was built by Kelvin I and atop Traladaran ruins. Whether those ruins where ruined before Kelvin got there is anyone's guess, but considering that the ruins were of the village of Lavv (from the song of Halav), and Traladaran superstition- I wouldn't be surprised if there was little more than a homestead or two there before Kelvin planted his castle down.
Whoops! I got the numbers of my Karameikos' wrong! I meant to have Stefan II be the Duke that was involved in the pacification/conquest of the Traladarans, not the Ist.
According to the family tree, it was Stefan II's father, Boris, who married a von Hendriks, as well.
Sorry. I checked K:KoA after making that post and realized how confused it must have seemed. It all makes sense now though.
In any case, I like your suggestion that the Karameikos project may have been a long term family plan that finally came to fruition with Stefan III. Perhaps his grandfather, the IInd originally had the idea, but wasn't able to follow through with it, and his son Victor wasn't interested, but he shared his idea with his grandson before his death. Then, when Stefan came into power, he came back to the idea and followed up on it.
Well, the original plan might not neccesarily have been to make Traladara a separate country etc etc, but if the Karameikos family have been involved in the Thyatian occupation for a century, then it is certainly likely that they would have developed some sort of commitment to the region, something deep enough for Stefan III to give up his ancestral lands for...
I was hoping it might have something myself, but no such luck. It could possibly have been awarded to Stefan II for his part in the conquest of Traladara, that would work, or it might go all the way back to Stefan I (about whom there is no information in K:KoA).
Yes, I noticed he doesnt even appear in the family tree oddly enough. I figured pergaps he is the one who first obtains the Duchy of Machetos...
Yep- both of those characters are explicitly mentioned in the background of the module- Rosentos as the general that was sent to explore the western part of the land by Duke Stefan the Hermit 100 years ago.
Excellent! That means we have more characters to play around with. Why was Duke Stefan II(?) known as the Hermit? What was his relationship with Rosentos? Can Rugalov or Sulescu be tied into this? Seems likely that it should. The troops Stefan the Hermit sent to Sulescu never made it out ofcourse...
Håvard
While we're fleshing out the Karameikos timeline, I'm going to post some other dates based on this thread I posted earlier in the year:
Thats useful. I wrote down some dates myself, but left them at home. I'll see if I can get to post them tomorrow. What I'm currently working with is the role of the other Karameikan noble families before AC 970. If the Karameikos family was already present, perhaps the other leading generals were of the Kelvin, Penhaligon, Halaran and Korrigan families?
IMC the Penhaligon ancestor Heroclius was already a folk hero in Northern Karameikos around AC 900. Although most Thyatians were viewed with suspicion or worse at the time, he was able to prove himself a hero and win the hearts of the locals by fighting monsters in the region. All of that is non-canon though.
For the Halaran family, my theory is that Threshold (originally named Pragos IMC) was first given by Stefan III to Merrick Halaran (Aleena's father). Merrick dies soon after his daughter is born (I suggest 974, during the Marilenev rebellion, when Aleena is 4), and the land goes to Merrick's brother, the local Bishop, Sherlane, who also adopts Merricks twin daughters.
If the Halaran's were involved also prior to this, perhaps Antilles Castle (From Castle Caldwell), also was built by a Halaran. Perhaps it is named after Antillius Halaran who started its contruction shortly after AC 900?
According to Castle Caldwell, Antilles Castle lays about 5 miles west of Threshold and had been abandoned for a long time before being bought by the Merchant Clifton Caldwell, probably the wealthiest Merchant in the area....
One thing I noticed while just now doing this- the Kelvin names (both first and last) seem to be of English/Scottish origin rather than Italian, which suggests to me that the Kelvins may have come from the Isle of Dawn (specifically, either Caerdwicca or, more likely, Westrourke/Redstone) before coming to Thyatis.
Why not? Perhaps the Thyatians realized that sending soldiers to areas laying near their original homes was a bad idea, since they were more likely to dessert, so they would find a legion from Westrourke instead?
Also, Desmond I is noted as a former Thyatian "officer and gentleman" who was of "crucial importance" to Stefan during the Marilenev rebellion. I imagine that he was probably in the military at the same time Stefan was (most likely cavalry, but possibly some other branch) and that he and Stefan served together in missions and formed a close friendship, thus his following Stefan over from Thyatis. Given the "gentleman" part, as well as the specific mention that Karameikos sought "second and third sons and daughters of the Thyatian aristocracy" that the Kelvins are landed (though not otherwise titled) nobles somewhere in mainland Thyatis (likely Machetos).
I think this reference is from K:KoA, though I cant recall for sure. The above fits well with my own theories, though I might be taking things too far. What do you think?
Another Karameikos date, I found that I remember was this:
AC 956: Thrainkell Thorson is a gladiator in the Thyatian Arenas.
Perhaps it was some time after this that Stefan III became friends with the emperor? Perhaps he even helped him gain his freedom from the gladiatorial arenas? If so, perhaps giving Stefan Traladara (for other land) was a part of paying back an old favor?
Håvard
), but I thought I'd pop in and say that this is a very interesting discussion so far. Hopefully soon I'll get some more time to jump in.Why was Duke Stefan II(?) known as the Hermit? What was his relationship with Rosentos?
Perhaps in making long term plans for Traladara, he stopped paying attention to his ancestral lands and was not seen by the common people anymore.
As for Rosentos, he was just a military leader in the army. Not much of a big player. However, in MY campaign, the role of Rosentos becomes a lot more interesting AFTER his expedition into the swamps. I've tied him in with Trinkla the Black Seer (pieced together from various sources) and the Black Opal Eye, and thus to the Eye of Traldar and the Seer and all the other stuff I have connected to that.
I really love how this all is working out. One question that comes to mind though: Gaz1 states,
"[Olivia Prothemian] was routinely engaged to Duke Stefan when she was 11 (arranged as an alliance between the Karameikos and Prothemian families), but immediately afterward the Duke traded his lands to the Emperor and sailed off to the Grand Duchy. The Prothemian family disapproved of Stefan's actions and, in 973, allowed Olivia the option of breaking the engagement."
Was the Karameikan plan to control Traladara hidden from even their allies? Why? All sorts of Thyatian intrigue and political maneuvering to work out for anyone interested in such things
Perhaps in making long term plans for Traladara, he stopped paying attention to his ancestral lands and was not seen by the common people anymore.
That sounds like a good idea- I'd suggest also, that (perhaps as part of his plans) he spent more time with his military endeavors than in ruling, parceling out his tasks to his underlings (perhaps even some of the "lesser" noble families that would later play a role in Traladara- the Korrigans, Kelvins, and von Hendrikses).
As for Rosentos, he was just a military leader in the army. Not much of a big player. However, in MY campaign, the role of Rosentos becomes a lot more interesting AFTER his expedition into the swamps. I've tied him in with Trinkla the Black Seer (pieced together from various sources) and the Black Opal Eye, and thus to the Eye of Traldar and the Seer and all the other stuff I have connected to that.
I thought I'd remembered some ties the Black Opal Eye and Eye of Traldar. I was trying to remember why the Essence Orb of Trinkla from that adventure sounded familiar. I'll check out your stuff on the Vaults, now that I know where I read it first.
Is Bargle powerful enough to have cursed or charmed Duke Stephan? Or maybe the Karameikos bloodline owes a magical debt from way back to the von Hendriks family, making it impossible for Duke Stefan to directly oppose von Hendriks. Has this been covered anywhere, in the Vaults or otherwise?
All this is reminding me - Baron von Hendriks never sat right with me. Ok, Duke Stefan is hopelessly naive, wants to give his cousin a chance to reform, doesn't realize how bad it is, yadda yadda - ********. For the Black Eagle Barony to be a credible villian, it has to be villianous, so it should have been obvious to Duke Stefan years ago that he needs to put the smackdown over there. It's obvious von Hendriks must have something on the Duke to keep him from interfering with him, either mundane blackmail or some sort of curse.
Is Bargle powerful enough to have cursed or charmed Duke Stephan? Or maybe the Karameikos bloodline owes a magical debt from way back to the von Hendriks family, making it impossible for Duke Stefan to directly oppose von Hendriks. Has this been covered anywhere, in the Vaults or otherwise?
I know what you mean. I like the idea of Stefan having a fatal flaw, but it usually ends up being interpreted as if he was pathetic. I see Stefan as a brilliant strategist and nation builder, but something keeps him from dealing with Von Hendriks.
The idea of him being cursed or charmed by Bargle also occurred to me. However, I also like your idea of bringing Von Hendriks himself more into the light.
As you say, he is a powerful villain. This kind of people don't just rely on luck or not being noticed. In fact the Black Eagle hasn't exactly been trying to be subtle about his evil ways. He even boasts about having counquered Halav, rather than having been given it by Stefan. Perhaps this is linked to the way Stefan was granted Traladara and the Black Eagle's attempted conquest of the Five Shires. What if part of the deal when Thincol gave Stefan Traladara was that he would aid Von Hendriks in his conquest of the Five Shires, making that area too, another Grand Duchy of Thyatis? Thincol might hope to reconciliate these areas into Thyatis at a later point once troubles in Ylaruam and Glantri had settled down. Ofcourse, all of these ideas might have been slipped into Thincol's mind by the Von Hendrikses...
Now, the problem was, Stefan didn't care much for harassing the halflings. He never thought it a good idea in the first place. Von Hendriks now claims that Stefan broke his deal with the Emperor and says he will convince Thincol of this if Stefan doesn't let him have his way in Halag...
Could this work?
Håvard
I think the idea of Stefan not believing reports or knowing what his cousin is up to work fine if you go by the original Karameikos as a largely rural and very feudal sort of country, but once the Gazetteers began to develop the area (and surrounding areas), and the population levels rose (Threshold went from something like 500 to 5,000, IIRC) and things became a bit more sophisticated, then it becomes a bit too hard to swallow. Karameikos as it currently stands, is still rural by the standards of surrounding nations, but it is because of that fact that it is too hard to believe. Now that Darokin, Thyatis, et al are somewhat more urban and heavily populated, and the level of sophistication of the Known World has seemingly risen to resemble something more of a Renaissance rather than Middle Age sort of society, there is simply no reason for Stefan to be so blind.
Let's try and find something in this Thyatian connection. I'll flip through my Thyatis stuff later and see if I can come up with something, but if anyone else does first, post it!
AC 400
Built on the ruins of King Milen’s city, the village of Marilenev begins trading and enjoys a slow gradual growth. Thyatian clerics learn the “Song of Halav” and commit it to writing for the first time. Traders bearing the curses of vampirism and lycanthropy settle in Traladara’s deep woods and flourish there.
***
BC 670
The Traladaran Witch-lord Aristicles, constructs his Red Granite Tower, south of modern day Penhaligon. Nearby he discovers the ancient Hutaakan Gate leading to the faraway valley of Thunder Rift. (Escape from Thunder Rift)
AC 700
A Mysterious Healer known as Chardastes appears, curing people and speaking out against the worship of the Traladaran Three. His sanctuary later becomes incorporated with the Church of Karameikos, though his cult remains more popular with Traladarans than with Thyatians.
720
Thyatian merchants increase their trade with Marilenev. A ruthless Traladaran Warlord named Leptar begins to kidnap fellow Traladarans, selling them as slaves to contacts in Hattias. This marks the foundation of the Iron Ring. Leptar’s plots are eventually thwarted by Chardastes the healer. Leptar achives Immortality some time after this.
AC 900
Emperor Gabronius IV of Thyatis begins a new expansionist policy. Thyatians conquer Traladara’s chief city, Marilenev, renaming it Specularum, the Mirror City. The Thyatian Empire claims all Traladara as a Thyatian protectorate.
AC 940
Merrik Halaran born. His father, Antillius “Antilles” Halaran begins the construction of Antilles Castle, five miles west of Threshold. This is the castle that later will be bought by Clifton Caldwell and known as Caldwell Castle.
AC 952?
Ludvig von Hendriks is born.
AC 954
Fain Flinn is born in Machetos. This makes him 49 years old at the beginning of the Penhaligon Trilogy. (Penhaligon Trilogy)
AC 956
Thrainkell Thorson, a norseman fighting in the Gladiatorial Arenas of Thyatis. He later attracts the attention of young Stefan Karameikos III. The two become friends, which will become useful to Stefan Karameikos when Thrainkell one day becomes Emperor Thincol Torion I of Thyatis. (DotE + my suggestion that this is the basis of Stefan and Thincol's 'friendship'.)
AC 960
For their treason against Thyatis in the war against Alphatia, all Knights of the Order of the White Drake are captured and executed. Some survivors are secretly incorporated within the Retebius Air Fleet and the Knights of the Air. (DotE)
In Haven, the conjunction with the Spirit Plane is overshadowed by the Dimension of Nightmares. This is set in motion by Catharandamus, high priest of Arik, who with the use of an artefact known as the Eye of Arik attempted to bring Arik’s avatar onto the prime plane. Catharandamus is driven out of the land. Princess Argenta marries Prince Ellis the Pure, a former Knight of the White Drake. (Mishler's Haven writeup, B3)
AC 970
Duke Stefan Karameikos III of Machetos assumes control of Traladara, making it a Grand Duchy independent of Thyatis, and renaming it Karameikos. To pay for this, he gives his friend Emperor Thincol “The Brave” Torion his ancestral lands of Machetos. Thincol strips the duchy of Machetos of all wealth before handing it over to General Callastian Jowdynites, as a reward for good and faithful service to the Empire. (K.KoA + DotE)
Grand Duke Stefan Karameikos III now gives land to Thyatian allies making them the new nobility of the new country. (K:KoA)
Aleena and Anielle Halaran born. They are the daughters of Merrik Halaran. When Merrik dies, the twins are adopted by their uncle, Bishop Sherlane Halaran. (K:KoA)
Captain Arturus, one of Duke Stefan’s most loyal warriors becomes a Landed Lord and is awarded the lands of Penhaligon, where the Lord already has served as an officer in the Thyatian Legion.
AC 970-980
Constructon of the Castle of the Three Suns in Penhaligon, after the orders of Lord Arturos. The Knights of Penhaligon become famous for the heroism all over Karameikos, especially their first champion Fain Flinn. (Penhaligon Trilogy)
AC 972
Order of the Three Suns created by Lord Arturus Penhaligon. Sir Fain Flinn becomes the first Knight to join the order. (Penhaligon Trilogy)
AC 974
Marilenev Rebellion crushed.
Merrik Halaran is killed. Sherlane Halaran, already a Bishop of the Church of Karameikos inherits Merrik’s dominion of Threshold. (Extrapolation from K:KoA)
Lord Arturos makes Fain Flinn his first Knight. (Penhaligon Trilogy)
AC 979-986
Grand Duke Stefan Karameikos III marries Lady Olivia Promethean. Adriana, Justin and Valen Karameikos are born.
AC 989
Baron Ludvig von Hendriks invades the Five Shires, but is repulsed.
AC 990
The Wizard Chambrin of Karameikos studies the ancient scrolls of the Witch-lord Aristicles, retrieved at Aristicles Red Granite Tower. He learns about the gate leading to Thunder Rift and discovers the gate itself, but finds that he lacks the means to activate it. Chambrin has for a long time been considered an enemy of the Callarii elves, and while examining the gate, he is attacked by a group of elves lead by Ezrathanawel “Ezra” the Elf-lord. The magic of Chambrin and Ezra interfere with the magic of the Gate, accidentally teleporting Chambrin to an unknown location in Thunder Rift. Chambrin begins looking for the Thunder Rift side of the gate and his activities soon earn him the enmity of the Dwarves of Thunder Rift. (Escape from Thunder Rift).
AC 996
Lord Arturos is dies. Even his enemies come to his funeral to pay tribute to this mighty leader. Sir Flinn, the first Knight ever to be knighted by Lord Arturos spent four days of mourning for his commander and friend. Lady Arteris, daughter of Lord Arturos becomes the new leader of the dominion which enjoys a period of prosperity and growth. (Canon + Penhaligon Trilogy)
AC 999
Aleena Halaran confronts Bargle the infamous in a series of caverns north of Threshold. He kills her, but her body is carried away by a young warrior who brings her to a temple of the Church of Karameikos where she is resurrected. (Basic set)
AC 1000 Gazetteer Era
AC 999
Aleena Halaran confronts Bargle the infamous in a series of caverns north of Threshold. He kills her, but her body is carried away by a young warrior who brings her to a temple of the Church of Karameikos where she is resurrected. (Basic set)
Just a couple of things here-
Aleena is only 22 in 1000 AC (from Gaz1), so her birthdate shouldn't be until 978, not 970.
Gaz1 also mentions that Aleena came to Karameikos when her father and mother died (a few years ago, according to Gaz1), so perhaps she was studying with the Church of Thyatis or something before she decided to return home?
Also, I'm curious at the Aleena/Anielle thing. Gaz1 mentions that if Aleena was killed in the Basic adventure, this character should be renamed Anielle, but you have Aleena getting resurrected after dying. Did you have something in mind for Anielle, or just possibly something down the road?
(Come to think of it, having a twin sister would help resolve the weirdness of the adventure in K:KoA when Aleena wants help saving her druid lover Bertrak, even though she should be married to someone else according to the PWAs.)
(PPS- I notice there are some bits in that adventure that should go into a Karameikan timeline, in particular the bits about Eltan's Spring and its history.)
(Come to think of it, having a twin sister would help resolve the weirdness of the adventure in K:KoA when Aleena wants help saving her druid lover Bertrak, even though she should be married to someone else according to the PWAs.)
Doesn't mean she can't have a lover! ;) I suppose it depends on how public she's being finding help.
Regards,
Gary
Just a couple of things here-
Aleena is only 22 in 1000 AC (from Gaz1), so her birthdate shouldn't be until 978, not 970.
Whoops, bummer. That means Merrick couldn't have died in the Marilenev rebellion, but must have died sometime during the 980s.
Gaz1 also mentions that Aleena came to Karameikos when her father and mother died (a few years ago, according to Gaz1), so perhaps she was studying with the Church of Thyatis or something before she decided to return home?
Also possible. Ofcourse, we could change the whole thing around and leave Merrick out of Karameikan history. Perhaps he was still in Machetos when his brother moved to Threshold?
Also, I'm curious at the Aleena/Anielle thing. Gaz1 mentions that if Aleena was killed in the Basic adventure, this character should be renamed Anielle, but you have Aleena getting resurrected after dying. Did you have something in mind for Anielle, or just possibly something down the road?
(Come to think of it, having a twin sister would help resolve the weirdness of the adventure in K:KoA when Aleena wants help saving her druid lover Bertrak, even though she should be married to someone else according to the PWAs.)
There are several reasons I have for keeping both sisters in the setting. First of all, the fact that Anielle is mentioned by name is a good reason to keep her around, since she is indeed an offical character and too interesting just to drop. Also, not bringing back Aleena is a less interesting choice, especially for people who never read/played the old intro adventure. As you point out having both sisters around also helps resolve the lovers issue, and although Gary has a point, I really dont' see the Halaran sisters cheating on their men. But maybe I am naive about such things? ;)
Another reason I have for keeping Anielle in the game (as it were), is a short story I was working on about the aftermath of the intro adventure, about how the Unnamed Hero and Anielle teamed up, questing for an artifact, the Queen's Chalice, to bring Aleena back to life. My fiction writing skills arent all that good though, so it never got anywhere...
(PPS- I notice there are some bits in that adventure that should go into a Karameikan timeline, in particular the bits about Eltan's Spring and its history.)
Yes this definately needs to be included. I need to look at that scenario again to refresh my memory about Eltan's spring and all that, but perhaps you (or anyone else?) have some suggestions to its background?
Also, whats the name of Aleena's husband in the PWA's? Which sister gets to hang out with Bertrak?
Håvard
Also, whats the name of Aleena's husband in the PWA's? Which sister gets to hang out with Bertrak?
Aleena marries Dmitri Yurevich in PWA1011; K:KoA takes place in 1013, so I suppose it's possible that Yurevich died in the 2 years before the Eltan's Grove adventure takes place. Otherwise, if it is Aleena hanging out with Bertrak, that makes her a sinner in the eyes of her Church- and as a cleric, I think there would be some noticeable consequences (like loss of spellcasting abilities, for one).
[EDIT] Interesting. Been reading through K:KoA again, and noticed that (according to the first adventure) the town of Threshold is built over ancient Nithian ruins. Evidently the Nithians built canals and at least one temple in the place where Threshold now stands. Hmmm...
Aleena marries Dmitri Yurevich in PWA1011; K:KoA takes place in 1013, so I suppose it's possible that Yurevich died in the 2 years before the Eltan's Grove adventure takes place. Otherwise, if it is Aleena hanging out with Bertrak, that makes her a sinner in the eyes of her Church- and as a cleric, I think there would be some noticeable consequences (like loss of spellcasting abilities, for one).
As I see it we have the following options:
- Aleena marries Dmitri in AC1011, but he dies a year later, giving her one year to grieve before she meets Bertrak
- Aleena marries Dmitri and her sister Anielle has an affair with Bertrak (or the other way around).
- Aleena marries Dmitri, but has an affair with Bertrak, a sin which makes her lose her spells
I dont like option 1 because it kills of a potentially interesting NPC. I also don't like option 3 because it seems OOC for Aleena. I vote option 2 since it brings two NPCs into the lives of the Halaran sisters without causing any alignment issues for either character. It also makes Anielle a more official character.
[EDIT] Interesting. Been reading through K:KoA again, and noticed that (according to the first adventure) the town of Threshold is built over ancient Nithian ruins. Evidently the Nithians built canals and at least one temple in the place where Threshold now stands. Hmmm...
Hadn't noticed that one! I would suggest interpreting this as "Nithian Era" ruins, either constructed by the original Traldar (before being reduced to stone age level), possibly with the aid of Lord Traldar himself, or by the Hutaakans.
Something I have also thought about is the name Threshold itself. A Threshold to what? David Cook probably thought of it as the Threshold to Adventure, or the Threshold to the Wilderness, but what if the name has some mystical significance, ie being a Treshold to other worlds?
IMC, Threshold is simply a Thyatian translation of the former Traladaran name Pragos, which again might have been a translation of the original Nithian era name, carrying the same meaning.
Håvard
AC 1000 Gazetteer Era
In Penhaligon, The Wizard Cavorcius (Kaworqian) Penhaligon dies. He is inherited by his adoptive son Lord Kaerin.
Clifton Caldwell, a Threshold Merchant buys Antilles Castle, which lays about 5 miles west of Threshold.
Roghan the Fearless is enlisted by the Black Eagle.
AC 1001
Penhaligon is made a Barony.
AC 1002
In Thunder Rift, dwarves capture the wizard Chambrin. He manages to escape, fleeing deeper into their mountains until he discovers what he was looking for all along: The Hutaakan Gate. He uses it to escape to Karameikos. (Escape from Thunder Rift.)
The events of Escape from Thunder Rift are recommended to be set only days after this event.
AC 1002
Abelaats appear in Penhaligon. The dragon Verdilith wrecks havoc on Bywater, also destroying Artisticles’ Red Granite Tower on the way. With the help of Johauna Menhir, Sir Fain Flinn regains his honor at the Penhaligon court and sets out to kill his nemesis, the green dragon Verdilith. (Detailed in novel The Tainted Sword, effects can also be seen in Escape from Thunder Rift.)
Some Abelaats find their way into Thunder Rift. (non-canon).
AC 1003
Johauna Menhir learns more about the Abelaats who plague Karameikos. Johauna slays Verdilith. Fain Flinn is ressurrected and embarks on the path to Immortality with the aid of Braddock, the dwarf. A gate is opened to the Abelaat homeworld into Karameikan Armstead. Karameikan Armstead destroyed. (Detailed in the novel the Dragons Tomb)
AC 1004
Massive Abelaat invasions of Karameikos. Penhaligon destroyed. Baroness Arteris barely escapes. With the help of the Immortal Flinn, Johauna Menhir stops the invasions. (Detailed in the novel The Fall of Magic.)
AC 1005
Johauna Menhir discovers the gate to Thunder Rift and enters the Valley, believing all her friends back in Karameikos to be dead. She takes up hunting down the Abelaat who made their way into the valley, and spreads the faith of the Immortal Flinn and the code of Chivalry to Thunder Rift’s inhabitants. (non-canon!)
Reconstruction of Penhaligon begins. (Extrapolation from The Fall of Magic and K:KoA.)
AC 1005-1010
Wrath of the Immortals: Conflicts between the Immortals sets the Known World in turmoil, changing its face forever. Thunder Rift seems unaffected by these events.
AC 1006
Kingdom of Karameikos: Master Teldon makes a diplomatic mission to Alphatia. On his return Stefan Karameikos declares himself King of Karameikos. Princess Adriana marries Lord Devon Hyraksos. Elsewhere, Alfheim is corrupted and conquered by Shadow elves.
AC 1007
Refugees from Alfheim settle in Karameikos. Princess Adriana’s firstborn son, Lucien Hyraksos is born.
AC 1008
Plague year in the lands north of Karameikos. Karameikos relatively unharmed.
AC 1009
Reconstruction of Penhaligon is completed, but it loses its baronial status, and is now once again only considered an estate. (Extrapolation from Penhaligon Trilogy and K:KoA).
AC 1010
Karameikan School of Magecraft founded in Krakatos. Wandering mage Terari is made headmaster and Minister of Magic.
AC 1011
Halflings invade Black Eagle Barony, capture Ludvig von Hendriks with Stefan’s approval. Von Hendriks later escapes.
AC 1012
King Stefan changes the name of Specularum to Mirros which means “City of Hope” in Traladaran.
AC 1030
Thyatis and Darokin attack the Brokenlands to secure their interests. All out war pits man against Orc.
AC 1200
Desert Nomads from Hule attack Darokin resulting in war throughout the Known World. At this time, Karameikos has once again been reduced to a Grand Duchy, now ruled by Grand Duke Stefan VI. Halag is ruled by Wilhelm von Hendriks.
AC 1000 Gazetteer Era
...
Roghan the Fearless is enlisted by the Black Eagle.
Is this canon? Is Rogahn mentioned anywhere but B1? That would mean B1 takes place well after the Gazetteer Era (something I try to avoid, since it makes them harder to use) and also has to be set in Karameikos. I like to set it in Ghyr, since so many of the names are made-up fantasy and seem similar to those in XL1, and aren't Traladaran or Thyatian. (There are some Thyatian names, but there are Thyatian names in XL1 too, so there are apparently at least some in Ghyr.) My main reason is just because there's already lots of stuff set in Karameikos, and Ghyr is more of a blank slate - B1 gives it some more detail (two legendary heroes and a nearby barbarian tribe, at least). Obviously this doesn't work if Rogahn's actually said to be active in Karameikos somewhere official, though.
Is this canon? Is Rogahn mentioned anywhere but B1? That would mean B1 takes place well after the Gazetteer Era (something I try to avoid, since it makes them harder to use) and also has to be set in Karameikos. I like to set it in Ghyr, since so many of the names are made-up fantasy and seem similar to those in XL1, and aren't Traladaran or Thyatian. (There are some Thyatian names, but there are Thyatian names in XL1 too, so there are apparently at least some in Ghyr.) My main reason is just because there's already lots of stuff set in Karameikos, and Ghyr is more of a blank slate - B1 gives it some more detail (two legendary heroes and a nearby barbarian tribe, at least). Obviously this doesn't work if Rogahn's actually said to be active in Karameikos somewhere official, though.
Its from B1-9: In Search of Adventure. It placed most of the B modules in Karameikos, and linked Rogahn to The Black Eagle. The cool thing about the B series modules though is that they are so generic that if you change the names and perhaps a few events, they could be set at multiple places even within the same campaign....
Håvard
AC 1030
Thyatis and Darokin attack the Brokenlands to secure their interests. All out war pits man against Orc.
AC 1200
Desert Nomads from Hule attack Darokin resulting in war throughout the Known World. At this time, Karameikos has once again been reduced to a Grand Duchy, now ruled by Grand Duke Stefan VI. Halag is ruled by Wilhelm von Hendriks.
Thoughts about any of these?
Håvard
It also gives reason why the Cult of Halav see him as a reincarnation of Halav.
Given that Stefan's Barony bordered Traldaran lands. To add to the twist, maybe its possible that his family line has/or is traldaran blood. Machetos may have originally been a traldaran provinence or that many traldarans moved to the region has it offered more opportunities due to the stability of the Thyatian Empire. Given more reason for Stefan to reclaim a long lost heritage, whilst local traldarans would still see him has a thyatian overlord.
It also gives reason why the Cult of Halav see him as a reincarnation of Halav.
Interesting idea. The fact that Karameikos is a greek word (Greek Pottery), suggests perhaps this Traldar - Karameikos connection too?
I wonder what the Karameikos Clan may have been up to when Halav was out and about?
Håvard
First the Gnoll invasion was to the north of Karameikos lands and headed west towards Lavv. The Elves of Vylia (excuse spelling
), they may protected their lands from invasion, defending their's. They may have allied with the elves in defending the southern coastal region being to far from Lavv to send support.Second they may have joined the refugees fleeing across the Sea of Dread , may have decided to return with the Northern bound tribes to discover what happened.
2 options
First the Gnoll invasion was to the north of Karameikos lands and headed west towards Lavv. The Elves of Vylia (excuse spelling
Yeah, it would make sense if they were always based in Machetos, which may indeed have been totally unharmed by the invasions. It would be fun if King Stefan actually was related to Halav though. Perhaps Halav travelled there after he had defeated the Gnolls?
Håvard
At this time the various Cities in Traldar would be similar to the Bronze age Greeks who held individual small city states, ruled by Monachies. The Mycenean Age (bad spelling!) the period that the Troyan War was fought. Where various seperate small states where called on by Treaties to support a large venture. In this case attack.
Interesting, Halav was supposed to have died fighting the Gnoll leader, but may have stopped there trying to rally support in defence of the northen lands, or later on his quest for Immortality.
At this time the various Cities in Traldar would be similar to the Bronze age Greeks who held individual small city states, ruled by Monachies. The Mycenean Age (bad spelling!) the period that the Troyan War was fought. Where various seperate small states where called on by Treaties to support a large venture. In this case attack.
This is more or less how I view this time period as well. When Halav is referred to as King Halav, he was originally only 'king' of the city of Lavv (now Kelvin), whereas other kings controlled the other city states. IMC Milen was king of Marileven av Petra Queen (or princess) of Krakatos.
Halav died fighting the Gnolls, but was ressurrected by Petra. I'd say the Machetos Traldar were unaffected by the Gnoll attacks, since the Gnolls were unable to penetrate the Vyalia Woods, but were later visited by Halav and his companions when the Three quested for Immortality.
Another possibility is that Machetos was not originally settled by Traldar. It was in fact a Nithian realm (or possibly Giantish, using some of Mystaros' material), but was in fact settled by Traladarans in search of new homes after the invasion. Perhaps this part of Traladaran history is intimately linked with Halavs quest for immortality, and his founding of the Karameikos clan?
Håvard
. Same as Minroth led Nithian colonists to settle the Dread Isles later to become Minrothad Guild Islands. It was after the Gnoll invasions with hugh population loss and mixing with new influx's after we get the Traldaran culture forming. May also explain the close link with the Vyalia Elves, during the Gnoll invasion the need to support each other led to Elves training Humans. That the Thyatians capitalise on today.
Traldar are Nithian colonists, i thought
May also explain the close link with the Vyalia Elves, during the Gnoll invasion the need to support each other led to Elves training Humans. That the Thyatians capitalise on today.
I can see why this is confusing ;)
The Traldar started out as colonists from Nithia, or possibly tribes living near Nithia before moving into Traladara. However by the time of the Gnoll invasions, the Traldar have gone through rather traumatic experiences and pretty much lost all similarity and contact with the Nithians. Traldar culture formed in the time leading up to the Gnoll invasions and reach their peak probably shortly thereafter, though then fall into a dark age and become known as Traladarans.
I like the idea of the orgin of the Foresters leading back to those days. I think SB Wilson suggested something similar in a previous discussion, so I think we are on the right track here:
After the invasions, the Traldar begin rebuilding their nation. They agree that Krakatos should not be rebuilt as it brings too many painful memories. The ruins however become a site of pilgrimage for later generations. Those left without a home follow Halav to the east to Machetos where they live under the protection of the Vyalia, many also becoming learned in the elven ways. In return Halav and his companions aid the Vyalia and the Machetos settlers fighting threats of that land (Giants, monsters), which in turn leads the Three to the Path of Immortality.
The attempted reconstruction of Traladara fails after the disappearance of Halav, as the nation falls into their dark age, threatened by further disease and famine, though is kept vaguely together through the guidance of the Three and the Song of Halav. Clerics of the Three do their best to keep disease and famine at bay, but other dark forces from the woods make this a difficult task...
Håvard
I think its the idea of the Hutaakens influencing Traldar culture that gets me. Since they are Pfarrs servants on Mystara and are the devout clerical order with a very similar culture to the Nithians, who Pfarr is also a Patron of?
I like the idea of the orgin of the Foresters leading back to those days. I think SB Wilson suggested something similar in a previous discussion, so I think we are on the right track here:
Wow, this thread has my brain firing on so many different levels that I'm having a hard time remembering all the details.
Going off memory of my old notes, I think I had a connection between the ranger class (and thus to the Foresters of OD&D) and the Seer of the Lost Lake. The rangers were a bit like the Seer's "agents" in and around Karameikos and helped him keep informed about the going ons of the Traladarans. I had the rangers/foresters under the title of "Watchers" who were originally organized by Zirchev (as the heir of the Eyes of Traldar and the originator of the Seer personality...all IMC, of course).Also, concerning B1 and the Roghan and Zelligar personalities. I always changed the names and had B1 as the post-resurrection/pre-Immortality stronghold of Halav (Roghan), Zirchev (Zelligar), and Petra (Melissa). It's not at all cannon, but I loved the idea and it fit fairly well with a few minor tweaks in the background story of B1.
Dragon #190 has the "Ecology of the Actaeon" article, and it divulges a bit of Karameikan history at the beginning of the article. It deals with the Actaeon Seridus, who is the protector of the Achelos Woods.
It talks about how the "great elven ruler Saldis" dedicated the Tree of Saldis to the woodland folk of the Achelos woods over 500 years ago (I assume the article is set c.1000 AC, which was the present day of the Voyage articles that were running in Dragon at the time).
It goes on to mention that Saldis' life was saved from an ambush by Seridus (which is what prompted him to plant the Tree).
That's about all the info the story has. It mentions that the Tree has valuable wood, "ideally suited for the manufacture of magical staves." Could it be a Tree of Life? Or some sort of offshoot of it?
Saldis himself was probably one of the Callarii elves, given the location of Achelos to the Radlebb woods (though it's possible he could be one of the clans of elves that still live in the Shires).
Also interesting that Karameikos has an actaeon protector. The article differs from the Monstrous Compendium in that it says actaeons don't reproduce, but are transformed from elks into their form by the Immortals, and a new one is called when the old one dies. Seridus seems to be the most recent, but how far back does the line of actaeon protectors go? Could it be connected with Zirchev?
One other note- the narrator of the story is a druid, Dathrin Silverthrush, who Seridus seems to indicate is the primary (perhaps only) druid of the Achelos region.
Something I have also thought about is the name Threshold itself. A Threshold to what? David Cook probably thought of it as the Threshold to Adventure, or the Threshold to the Wilderness, but what if the name has some mystical significance, ie being a Treshold to other worlds?
Well, there is a village named "Briddle" in the Five Shires so it is not entirely impossible that it simply means "Threshold". I like the idea that the inhabitants think of their town as the threshold between civilization and wilderness.
Didn't the old west have a cowboy town simply named "Silver City"? Cities and towns can be named for all manner of things I guess, but I agree that it is not a very Thyatian or Traladaran style name...
:-) Jesper
Some new history info for the thread that I found (and it may be of particular interest to Havard).
Dragon #190 has the "Ecology of the Actaeon" article, and it divulges a bit of Karameikan history at the beginning of the article. It deals with the Actaeon Seridus, who is the protector of the Achelos Woods.
It talks about how the "great elven ruler Saldis" dedicated the Tree of Saldis to the woodland folk of the Achelos woods over 500 years ago (I assume the article is set c.1000 AC, which was the present day of the Voyage articles that were running in Dragon at the time).
It goes on to mention that Saldis' life was saved from an ambush by Seridus (which is what prompted him to plant the Tree).
That's about all the info the story has. It mentions that the Tree has valuable wood, "ideally suited for the manufacture of magical staves." Could it be a Tree of Life? Or some sort of offshoot of it?
Saldis himself was probably one of the Callarii elves, given the location of Achelos to the Radlebb woods (though it's possible he could be one of the clans of elves that still live in the Shires).
Also interesting that Karameikos has an actaeon protector. The article differs from the Monstrous Compendium in that it says actaeons don't reproduce, but are transformed from elks into their form by the Immortals, and a new one is called when the old one dies. Seridus seems to be the most recent, but how far back does the line of actaeon protectors go? Could it be connected with Zirchev?
One other note- the narrator of the story is a druid, Dathrin Silverthrush, who Seridus seems to indicate is the primary (perhaps only) druid of the Achelos region.
Wow!
What have you stumbled upon here. I cant find my issue of Dragon #190 right now, but I never noticed those Mystara-specific references. They are indeed interesting, but for the Callarii project and the general understanding of Karameikan history that we are discussing in this thread.
Some thoughts and questions:
Saldis, the Great Elven Ruler.
Okay, we know he was the ruler, most likely of the Callarii elves around AC500. His life was saved by the Actaeon (Serdius), which made him plant what is known as the Tree of Serdius. Some questions: Okay, I'm assuming Saldis was a king of the Callarii, probably a direct descendant of Lady Callarii herself. If so, who tried to assasinate him? Why would the Acteaon want to save him?
Thre Tree of Serdius
It does indeed seem likely that this is another Tree of Life. But as you suggest, it is probably a unique one, since its special abilities are different from the rest. Perhaps it is not a True Tree of Life, but a lesser version of the Tree, created by Serdius for the Druids of Achelos to take care of? Is the relationship between the druids of Karameikos and the Actaeons detailed further in the article?
Actaeons
It is indeed interesting that Karameikos has an Actaeon protector. The revised version of the origin of Actaeons reminds me somewhat of Treants being awakened trees. They probably have a close relationship with the druids either as servants, masters or allies. I like the idea of linking these guys to Zirchev. He could actually be the creator of the Karameikan Druidic tradition, and perhaps the one who called the original Actaeon to Achelos. Zirchev himself has been linked to this part of Karameikos, at least by non-canon material. Also, the fact that Actaeons originate in Greek mythology, linking them to ancient Traladara seems appropriate.
Thoughts?
Håvard
Saldis, the Great Elven Ruler.
Okay, we know he was the ruler, most likely of the Callarii elves around AC500. His life was saved by the Actaeon (Serdius), which made him plant what is known as the Tree of Serdius. Some questions: Okay, I'm assuming Saldis was a king of the Callarii, probably a direct descendant of Lady Callarii herself. If so, who tried to assasinate him? Why would the Acteaon want to save him?
Perhaps a disreputable Traladaran baron- I don't recall precisely (and can't check my Gaz right now) but wasn't the evil Traladaran baron and the story of Nob Nar around this time (600 or so AC). Possibly not- I recall that there is a discrepancy about whether Nob Nar's story is BC or AC.
In any case, it could have been a baron who set his sights on gaining too much land, only to encounter resistance from the Callarii elves. The actaeon (and the wilderness creatures) might have had an interest, if the baron's motives or methods involved endangering the wilds.
Thre Tree of Serdius
It does indeed seem likely that this is another Tree of Life. But as you suggest, it is probably a unique one, since its special abilities are different from the rest. Perhaps it is not a True Tree of Life, but a lesser version of the Tree, created by Serdius for the Druids of Achelos to take care of? Is the relationship between the druids of Karameikos and the Actaeons detailed further in the article?
Not much. Serdius calls Dathrin Silverthrush by name, which surprises the druid, until Serdius mentions that the woodland creatures speak highly of their druid. Until they actually meet, Dathrin is aware only of the legend of Serdius, and isn't even sure if he's still alive.
It seems like the druids are the caretakers of the tree, and Serdius is just a general woodland protector, who in the article is called upon by Dathrin as a last-resort gesture.
I think the "lesser" Tree of Life idea is a good one, though.
Actaeons
It is indeed interesting that Karameikos has an Actaeon protector. The revised version of the origin of Actaeons reminds me somewhat of Treants being awakened trees. They probably have a close relationship with the druids either as servants, masters or allies.
Yeah- I like the "awakened" idea better than just having them as another race that breeds true, for a lot of reasons. Makes them more significant, for one, and more unique. They would seem to be more allies than servants or masters, though. Perhaps even an "alternative" to druids- they may exist as protectors of the woodlands, for instance, where others haven't felt the calling to nature (druids).
I like the idea of linking these guys to Zirchev. He could actually be the creator of the Karameikan Druidic tradition, and perhaps the one who called the original Actaeon to Achelos. Zirchev himself has been linked to this part of Karameikos, at least by non-canon material. Also, the fact that Actaeons originate in Greek mythology, linking them to ancient Traladara seems appropriate.
Good point- hadn't thought of the Greek connection. Servants of Zirchev seems the most likely, then.
Perhaps a disreputable Traladaran baron- I don't recall precisely (and can't check my Gaz right now) but wasn't the evil Traladaran baron and the story of Nob Nar around this time (600 or so AC). Possibly not- I recall that there is a discrepancy about whether Nob Nar's story is BC or AC.
Hmmm...I'll need to check this. Could this evil Thyatian baron be tied to Koryszegy or possibly Halag (using the non-canon Curse of Halag theory)?
Regardless, he is indeed a good suspect for the assasination attempt on King Saldis.
In any case, it could have been a baron who set his sights on gaining too much land, only to encounter resistance from the Callarii elves. The actaeon (and the wilderness creatures) might have had an interest, if the baron's motives or methods involved endangering the wilds.
If we make him truly evil, he could just be set out to harass the sylvan folk. Very likely, he allied himself with local humanoids and possibly dragons (see Dragon's Den). Hmmm....
Thinking more about Dragon's Den, perhaps some of the individuals from that module can be used to detail a historical past in Traladara?Not much. Serdius calls Dathrin Silverthrush by name, which surprises the druid, until Serdius mentions that the woodland creatures speak highly of their druid. Until they actually meet, Dathrin is aware only of the legend of Serdius, and isn't even sure if he's still alive.
Hmmm...that is surprising, you would think a Druid would know these things. Still it adds to the idea of Actaeons being mythic creatures...It seems like the druids are the caretakers of the tree, and Serdius is just a general woodland protector, who in the article is called upon by Dathrin as a last-resort gesture.
I think the "lesser" Tree of Life idea is a good one, though.
This touches upon one of the problems with OD&D Mystara. Especially Gaz 5 describes elven magic almost as divine or druidic though it is definately arcane as well. The Tree of Saldis should not function as a Tree of Life then, (though perhaps in some ways similar), but be one guarded by Druids rather than Tree Keepers. It is probably the most holy druidic site in Karameikos, rivalled possibly by Eltan's Spring and the Lake of Lost Dreams...Yeah- I like the "awakened" idea better than just having them as another race that breeds true, for a lot of reasons. Makes them more significant, for one, and more unique. They would seem to be more allies than servants or masters, though. Perhaps even an "alternative" to druids- they may exist as protectors of the woodlands, for instance, where others haven't felt the calling to nature (druids).
I like these ideas. I'd say they usually come to the assistance of druids, rangers or elves in need of help, but will act alone if there are no such individuals in the area.Good point- hadn't thought of the Greek connection. Servants of Zirchev seems the most likely, then.
I'd say Zirchev called the first Actaeons to Traladara. They may have existed elsewhere on Mystara before that though, probably in the service of Ordana or Terra. Some may have been around in Grunland for instance...
Håvard
Hmmm...I'll need to check this. Could this evil Thyatian baron be tied to Koryszegy or possibly Halag (using the non-canon Curse of Halag theory)?
Regardless, he is indeed a good suspect for the assasination attempt on King Saldis.
Just checked Gaz8. The portion on the ballad has Nob Nar and the evil Baron of Halag, Ulstagh, operating in 612 AC. I suspect this was probably supposed to be BC, though, since the history portion of the Gaz mentions that Nob Nar was one of the greatest heroes during the Shires' "Time of Heroes" (743-610 BC).
In any case, it's interesting that Halag seems to have suffered under evil barons for a long time now.
Thinking more about Dragon's Den, perhaps some of the individuals from that module can be used to detail a historical past in Traladara?
The Ballad of Nob Nar mentions that Nob stole a hoard from under the the claws of the elder dragon Gaulthaumyrauz. Nob lived east of Wereskalot, so right in the Shires/Karameikos border region. Gaulthaumyrauz may have been a Traladaran dragon.
Just checked Gaz8. The portion on the ballad has Nob Nar and the evil Baron of Halag, Ulstagh, operating in 612 AC. I suspect this was probably supposed to be BC, though, since the history portion of the Gaz mentions that Nob Nar was one of the greatest heroes during the Shires' "Time of Heroes" (743-610 BC).
In any case, it's interesting that Halag seems to have suffered under evil barons for a long time now.
Interesting. I actually like how Halag keeps attracting evil rulers, perhaps there is something to that curse of Halag after all. If Baron Ulstagh did indeed reign in 612 BC, rather than AC he cant have been the one behind the assasination attempt on King Saldis, but perhaps one of his descendants (Ulstagh II?) was the one responsible? That would help with the discrepancies in the timeline.
The Dragon's Den:
The Ballad of Nob Nar mentions that Nob stole a hoard from under the the claws of the elder dragon Gaulthaumyrauz. Nob lived east of Wereskalot, so right in the Shires/Karameikos border region. Gaulthaumyrauz may have been a Traladaran dragon.
Hmmm....there is even more here to fit into the timeline! Gaulthaumyrauz may have been the original dweller in the caves that were later occupied by the dragons featured in The Dragon's Den.
Speaking of which, here is something I posted on the MML a little over a year ago:
Examining the map from Dragon's Den, I realized that
it is suspiciously similar to the map of the Gulf of
Halag region in Karameikos. Even the desctrptions of
the locations and characters are almost the same. It
seems to me that the adventure was designed for
Karameikos, and then later for some bizarre reason,
they decided to change the names. The references to
Karameikos and the Duke in the Dragon-game further
support this. Sadly I saw that Bruce Heard was still
on the team when this adventure came out: I would have
though that he wouldn't have allowed such a decision.
Anyways, comparing maps/gaz info:
Greetland = Karameikos
Gulf of Halland = Gulf of Halag
Kellshire Dales = Five Shires
West March = Black Eagle Barony
Castle Kane = Fort Doom
Draven of Myrlemain = Ludvig von Hendriks
King Ganyard II = Duke Stefan Karameikos
Knacker Knob = Luln
Bailif Wortley = Yolanda of Luln (Close enough)
The Great Swamp = Blight Swamp
Dyne Keep = Achelos Keep?
Dallow Keep= Riverfork Keep
Lavalyn Keep = Koryszergy Keep
Forest of Dallow =Riverfork Woods
Iron River = Riverfork River
Iron Wood = Not sure if this one was ever named.
Yarrow = Mirros/Specularum
Seatstone Highlands = Not sure if this area was ever
named.
What if these names aren't wrong, just older (or halfling) names for the area a few centuries earlier? Many of the locations and individuals mentioned could be used to fill out the gaps we are missing in Karameikan history. What do you think?
Håvard
What if these names aren't wrong, just older (or halfling) names for the area a few centuries earlier? Many of the locations and individuals mentioned could be used to fill out the gaps we are missing in Karameikan history. What do you think?
As you started to re-post that, I was having the same thought. I really like that idea- that those are either early Traladaran or else hin names for the locales. When do you suggest setting the time? My suggestion would probably during the Time of Heroes I mentioned earlier- when the hin were flourishing, but the Traladarans were in the midst of their "dark age", and so might not have as complete records of the events as the hin would.
but perhaps one of his descendants (Ulstagh II?) was the one responsible?
That would entail the Baron having some other child besides just his daughter, since he slays her and then Nob Nar slays him...
Gaulthaumyrauz may have been the original dweller in the caves that were later occupied by the dragons featured in The Dragon's Den.
Pardon me, I haven't followed this thread closely. What is the Dragon's Den? A Dungeon module? If so, in which issue?
:-) Jesper
Pardon me, I haven't followed this thread closely. What is the Dragon's Den? A Dungeon module? If so, in which issue?
Dragon's Den is one of the First Quest modules- one of the boxed sets, to be precise. While most of them were set in Thunder Rift, this one evidently was set in a generic setting- or, as Havard notes, was seemingly changed to a generic setting.
Been meaning to get it myself. Don't really want the whole big box, but I do like having hard copies (as opposed to ESDs). Guess I'll eventually get the ESD and just print it out.
What if these names aren't wrong, just older (or halfling) names for the area a few centuries earlier?
And for my two kopecs worth, I too like the idea of alternate names. I think it's 'natural' for different regions or cultures to refer to something using differing names. Sometimes the name of something (or even someone) gets altered through the passage of time (just as many of our words do).
As you started to re-post that, I was having the same thought. I really like that idea- that those are either early Traladaran or else hin names for the locales. When do you suggest setting the time? My suggestion would probably during the Time of Heroes I mentioned earlier- when the hin were flourishing, but the Traladarans were in the midst of their "dark age", and so might not have as complete records of the events as the hin would.
I was actually thinking about linking it to the tale of Saldis and setting it around 500 AC, some centuries before the Thyatians begin their trade with Marilenev.
OTOH, setting it during the Hin Time of Heroes, before the story of Nob Nar and Baron Ulstagh. Perhaps Ulstagh is the son of Draven of Myrlemain, who rules Halag according to the Dragon's Den?
That doesn't help explain who the evil ruler of Halag around 500 AC is though...
Håvard
The ruins to the north of Threshold, where Bargle slays Aleena (from the Player's Guide, though I no longer own that... dangit), were actually the ruins of Castle Mistamere, which was ruled by a magic-user named Gygar. This was "centuries ago", according to the background information.
Now, it seems to me that this Gygar might be tied in somehow with Elyas (though I don't recall the timeframe of Elyas and his tower).
From the last post (above), it is noted that the ruins of Castle Mistamere are 3 miles from town (not sure offhand how that relates to the map from the Expert set or not, but I'll check that later).
From module B1-9, which located and relocated most of the Basic modules to Karameikos, we learn that Clifton Caldwell's Castle (from B9), is actually the former Antilles Castle, located 5 miles to the west of Threshold.
Seems a very popular place for castle building...
From module B1-9, which located and relocated most of the Basic modules to Karameikos, we learn that Clifton Caldwell's Castle (from B9), is actually the former Antilles Castle, located 5 miles to the west of Threshold.
Something else located 5 miles to the west of Threshold (according the Expert set, p. 40)- the Black Woods, which conceals (magically asleep and massmorphed) Bargle's secret army.
Hmm... looks like Clifton Caldwell may have bigger problems than just the castle on his hands.
I already had Antiles Castle and Clifton Caldwell noted down, but I had forgotten those details from the introductory adventure. Gygar and Castle Mistamere should also be included in the timeline indeed.
And Bargle's Secret Army would cause trouble too. I suspect he is just waiting for the right moment....
Back to Clifton, I'd suggest that he is in fact the most powerful Merchant in Threshold, perhaps even the Merchant Guild leader, or he wouldnt have the kind of cash it would take for a non-noble to buy himself a castle.
These little details will all allow us to detail the Treshold region better...
Håvard
the Antilles Castle is mentioned where?In my Basic set, (Red book), the action takes place in some caves in the hills and not a castle or its ruins.
Also in the expert book it mentions 'and north (to the small mountain outpost of Highdell, at the river’s beginnings)' when talking about trade routes, is this now the Duke Road's Keep?
Sorry I'm confused
Sorry to have confused you ;)
Antilles Castle is Castle Caldwell from B9.
It is Mistlemere castle, built by the Wizard Gygar that apparently is mentioned in the Basic Set, though I'm wondering if there are different versions of that adventure out there. I only have the Norwegian Edition of that book, which I fear left out quite a few details
Sorry to have confused you ;)
Antilles Castle is Castle Caldwell from B9.
It is Mistlemere castle, built by the Wizard Gygar that apparently is mentioned in the Basic Set, though I'm wondering if there are different versions of that adventure out there. I only have the Norwegian Edition of that book, which I fear left out quite a few details
Found the Caldwell reference in B1-9.
The Solo adventures in the Red players book were in caves in the hills.
Mistamere is in the Red DM's book. Obviously no mention that if Bargle had been 'killed' in the solo adventure, how he could be on level 3of this dungeon (as a 5-7th MU - so powerful that DM left to determine his extra powers).
As Threshold area is a popular stopping off area for caravans, so different people at different times tried to control the area.
Who were the Antilles? early domain settlers?
Also in the expert book it mentions 'and north (to the small mountain outpost of Highdell, at the river’s beginnings)' when talking about trade routes, is this now the Duke Road's Keep?
I think it is a different place, as the Duke's Road Keep is located on a different river from the one Threshold is on. I'd imagine Highdell is simply up in the mountains a bit further north than Lake Windrush (at the head of the Foamfire River).
Of course, this creates some difficulties with the module B10, as that would place Highdell somewhere in the gnoll territories near the entrance to the Lost Valley of Hutaaka, raising the question of why is the valley still lost?
(Then again, maybe not. It doesn't have to be all the way up the Foamfire Valley, and it would make sense to have a keep somewhere in that range, north of Verge and Threshold, to protect against those gnolls.)
Also, the 8 mile hex maps of Threshold and Verge are a little off, in comparison with the smaller scale maps (specifically the 2 mile/hex maps of the region in B10). I worked out a better idea of where they should be some time ago, but I'm not sure if I still have that corrected map or not. IIRC, Threshold should actually be located either one hex to the SW of its position, or one SW and one S (I forget which).
I'm looking at doing a 1 mi/hex map of the whole of Karameikos soon (going to get started tonight), and will hopefully get a better idea then.
In any case- Thorf! You still out there? Map stuff!
Who were the Antilles? early domain settlers?
Good question. Outside of Star Wars (Wedge Antilles), I've never actually seen the word used as a surname or proper name. There are the Lesser Antilles, which are Dutch, so perhaps that's a place to start.
The closest thing to a Dutch/Netherlands culture that I know of in Mystara would be the Flaems of Glantri. Perhaps the Antilles were an early group of Flaemish settlers (outcasts?) who left the Highlands of Braejr for other regions? Eventually they settled in northern Traladara?
Good question. Outside of Star Wars (Wedge Antilles), I've never actually seen the word used as a surname or proper name. There are the Lesser Antilles, which are Dutch, so perhaps that's a place to start.
The closest thing to a Dutch/Netherlands culture that I know of in Mystara would be the Flaems of Glantri. Perhaps the Antilles were an early group of Flaemish settlers (outcasts?) who left the Highlands of Braejr for other regions? Eventually they settled in northern Traladara?
To avoid the Wedge association I assumed the name originally was Antillius, an early Thyatian Fort, built to pacify the Traladarans in the area and guard against the Death Head Gnolls (see B10). Who Antillius is still remains a question however. I tried to link him with the Halarans as I suggested that they have been involved in the region earlier, but I have sort of abandoned that idea.
Perhaps General Antillius is an ancestor of Clifton Caldwell, and that this is one of the reasons why Clifton bought the castle back in B9? The Antillius family may have been nobles at the time (I assume Thyatian military leaders are nobles), but since lost their status, something Clifton is trying to change through commerce...?
Håvard
I had Kelvin born in 973, because he seemed to be wooing Adrianna Karameikos and I just assumed (for no particular reason) that they would be around the same age. I'll have to rethink his age, I'm guessing. If Alerena is (at the youngest, I'd say) 13 or so, then that would mean Desmond was only 14 when he had her by my reckoning, which doesn't quite seem right. I'll probably bump his age back to the 960s at least.
I'd imagine that Alerena is an illegitimate daughter as well, given that Desmond was courting Adrianna as recently as 1000 AC (or else his wife died or they were divorced or something). Yet more scandal for the Kelvin clan!
(Karameikos: KoA has some interesting tidbits in the family trees, although I noticed at least one error- the Vorloi family tree has the Baron's son named Mikel, when he is explicitly named Grygory in both Gaz1 and the Baron's own entry in K:KoA. I guess one of the two is his middle name? Grygory Mikel or Mikel Grygory Vorloi.)
Roger
The question, of course, is whether Valen has any interest in Alerena Kelvin.
(And the alternate possibility - Alerena is the daughter of Desmond Kelvin I, and Desmond II's (much) younger sister. In this case, Desmond II might actually disapprove of a royal match for his sister, at least while he considers the chance of a match with Adriana still possible.)
If Desmond Kelvin has a teenage daughter, he's absolutely going to want to arrange a marriage between her and Valen. Potentially ensuring that he and Olivia form a political bloc to put their children on the throne.
The scenario presented in B12 is that she has actually been engaged to Kaerin Penhaligon (who is, it should be noted, only a Penhaligon by adoption). The text says that Lady Arteris has given him the honorary title of Lord, so I am assuming that she made a request to the Duke to grant him Court Lord status (as per the titleage guidelines in Gaz1).
After reading that info, I'm more inclined than ever to think that Alerena must be illegitimate. As you say, if she hadn't been, then he'd have definitely been trying to get her married off to Valen (or Justin). If she is illegitimate, then he's lucky to get her married off to whoever would take her- in this case, an adopted noble, but still a noble (by titleage, and not adoption- his adopted father, Arteris' uncle, shouldn't have had a title that I can determine.)
Now to try and figure out her approximate age. Kaerin is 26, though that need not necessarily have any bearing. B12 says that they just recently were engaged (during the course of the module, actually), and since children in medieval times could be betrothed at very early ages, I think Alerena could be very young still. If she's older (like 18 or so), then that would make Desmond Kelvin II something like in his 40s- which seems a bit too old to me.
He entered the Church of Karameikos when he was 13. The CoK couldn't have been established before 970 (as there was no Karameikos until then), so Kelvin couldn't have been born any later than 957 AC. So let's fiddle with this a bit...
If I were to push the birthdate I had originally given him back to 963 or thereabouts, that would make him 37 in AC 1000, when he is courting Adriana. That could also give some leeway to Alerena to be in her later teens (say, 16 or so).
I am picturing Kelvin as having never married due largely to his ambitions on the Ducal title. As the CoK frowns on living together without the sanctity of marriage, he never married the woman who fathered his daughter Alerena, and he took the earliest opportunity to marry her off to someone of noble standing (even if just a Court Lord).