Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wyvern76 Oct 30, 2005 20:23:52	As most of you are surely aware, the baatezu are not the original inhabitants of Baator, being preceded by the Ancient Baatorians. You've probably also heard the stories crediting the yugoloths with the creation of both baatezu and tanar'ri. This raises the question: who lived in the Abyss before the tanar'ri got there? I was also wondering recently where the Abyssal lords came from, and why none of them bear any resemblance to each other or to any of the various types of tanar'ri. Putting two and two together, I came up with this idea: The original inhabitants of the Abyss, predating the creation of the tanar'ri, were the Abyssal spawn (so-called because they were "birthed" directly from the substance of the plane itself). Due to the chaotic nature of the plane, no two were alike. Many Abyssal lords (especially the stranger ones such as Jubilex and Demogorgon) are surviving Abyssal spawn. The less-powerful ones were exterminated by the tanar'ri, though the plane still spontaneously creates new ones from time to time. I'm not going to propose rules or stats for Abyssal spawn; that would be missing the point, which is that they can be literally anything. Of course, from a metagame standpoint, this gives an excellent opportunity to throw the latest fiendish monstrosity from Tome of Horrors or Creature Collection or Monster Manual IX at your player characters without having to explain why they've never seen or heard of it before. Wyvern
#2 factol_rhys_dup Oct 30, 2005 23:29:32	I like this idea. Face of Evil suggested that the tanar'ri were not the original denizens of the Abyss, but just out-adapted and out-competed all their competitors. I like that, as its evolution concept appeals to my inner (and outer) science geek.
#3 ripvanwormer Oct 30, 2005 23:50:00	See also the Early Abyssals thread on the Deities & the Planes board.
#4 bob_the_efreet Oct 31, 2005 0:39:07	Also, either Planes of Chaos or Faces of Evil (I don't remember which) talked about other kinds of unique Abyssal fiends. They mentioned, I think, some kind of horseman and a black-clad gentleman, among others.
#5 ripvanwormer Oct 31, 2005 10:16:59	You mean the Knight Errant, who's described in Faces of Evil as an example of a unique tanar'ric form. The Knight is actually a tanar'ri - FoE makes it clear that any tanar'ri has the ability to evolve into something unique. Most just choose not to, as the Abyss weeds out less efficient forms. A bar-lgura might think it'd be awesome to have horns, until it finds out that there's something in the Abyss that feeds on horns. The tanar'ri forms that are common are common because they've proven to be well-adapted to the horrors and trials of the Abyss, and because they represent status. If a tanar'ri decides to become a zebra with a monkey's head, most other tanar'ri will scratch their heads in puzzlement or laugh. If they want to impress others with a form like that, they have to establish their reputation the hard way. If the tanar'ri manages to becomes a *nalfeshnee*, they'll quake in fear - a nalfeshnee! A judge of the damned, lord of the Mountain of Woe! That means power in the Abyss. Other tanar'ri are given their shapes by superiors - usually nalfeshnee, actually - as they're needed. Because the Abyss has an infinite variety of layers, the tanar'ri have an infinite variety of adaptations - but only a relative few are common on many different layers. But the tanar'ri are a race of Chaos, and they can theoretically have any form imaginable. That's why the lord of the layers often have unique forms - they're powerful enough to rule an entire layer of the Abyss, so they don't have to worry what others think of them. Whatever they become will be impressive, simply because it's theirs.
#6 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 31, 2005 18:57:13	I've actually been playing around with the idea that the Varrangoin, or some now largely extinct subtype of their kind, while not the original native race of the Abyss, were there at the time of the Tanar'ri arrival. One of my players' PCs has what just might be one of them bound into a minor artifact ring they discovered. It also happens to be inextricably bound to their finger, and inside their mind to some unknown extent. I've also been toying with the idea that during the initial introduction of the Tanar'ri into the Abyss, part of the first Tanar'ri that emerged into that plane were birthed from the ****, both actual and metaphysical, of Pale Night. So yeah, I'm working with Pale Night being one of, possibly one of a few, original Abyssal denizens. So Pale Night takes upon a position of being the literal Mother of the Tanar'ri, or a large percentage of their original stock. And perhaps her place now as the mother of several noted Abyssal Lords is some bizarre way of possibly increasing the percentage of that original Bloodline of the Abyss within the current Tanar'ri, with the long term goal being to slowly approach that as she breeds with modern Abyssal Lords and increases the purity of the Abyss in the process. Perhaps she believes that she can at least break her metaphorical and actual childrens' link to the yugoloths, and perhaps sever the chance that they might be one day beholden to the Lords of the Waste, rather than their own birthright through her.
#7 ripvanwormer Oct 31, 2005 19:28:03	That's extremely intriguing, Shem. I like that origin myth a lot.
#8 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 31, 2005 20:10:15	That's extremely intriguing, Shem. I like that origin myth a lot. Thanks I'll have it more fully fleshed out in the next story I'm planning on chipping away at this week.
#9 bob_the_efreet Nov 01, 2005 15:41:08	You mean the Knight Errant, who's described in Faces of Evil as an example of a unique tanar'ric form. The Knight is actually a tanar'ri - FoE makes it clear that any tanar'ri has the ability to evolve into something unique. That's it. This is what I get for posting from memory without looking in the books. An excellent clarification, though.