technodemon, I've considered dropping it in myself. I think it would make an interesting addition.
Perhaps descendants of the Sueloise lineage take to the class most frequently as they worship Wee Jas, who encourages the use of magic items?
Perhaps they became more prevalent during the Greyhawk Wars to forge weapons and items that would assist in some of the greatest battles?
Perhaps it is a completely new field of study in the Greyhawk University of Magical Arts?
It's not too far fetched to add them to the Flanaess as a new element, and
the possibilities are endless.
It's not too far fetched to add them to the Flanaess as a new element, and the possibilities are endless.
Agreed, Aramil. Artificers can make a very interesting fit in Greyhawk. Another idea is to make Artificers dominant among dwarves where traditional spellcasters might be rare. Since artificers understand magic at such a mechanical level, they seem to fit the dwarven culture.
Or, perhaps gnomes, since artificers also seem to be the ultimate magic dabblers. As said above, "the possibilites are endless."
See Eberron Campaign Setting, pages 29-33 for Artificer class information. And pages 103-117 for a list of Artificer Infusions. And another bevy of infusions in Magic of Eberron.
Have no knowledge of Eberron but within GH when I hear "mechanical and dabblers" I envision Gnomes, ofcourse most of there mechanical devices tend to fail often with an explosion.
When I hear "Gnomes" and "mechanical devices" and "explosion," I think of Dragonlance...In GH, I think of gnomes at their most traditional (D&D speaking)- good hearted tricksters and gem miners, not really any more technically minded than any other 'PC' race...
Kwint
When I hear "Gnomes" and "mechanical devices" and "explosion," I think of Dragonlance...In GH, I think of gnomes at their most traditional (D&D speaking)- good hearted tricksters and gem miners, not really any more technically minded than any other 'PC' race...
Kwint
Ditto
They are very limited and xenophobic (having all descended from gnome slaves that escaped the Rain of Colorless Fire) with a militaristic culture and government. Thus, they will probably never be seen again unless the PCs search them out or I'm in the mood for flying gnomes.
Aritficers would fit right in there.
Tizoc, it's a class from Eberron.
From the core Eberron book, Amaril, or one of the supplements?
edit: nevermind, just saw Greyson's post. What additional info appears in Magic of Eberron that may be useful for this class?
From the core Eberron book, Amaril, or one of the supplements?
edit: nevermind, just saw Greyson's post. What additional info appears in Magic of Eberron that may be useful for this class?
I don't have the book with me, but I think it includes new infusions and a psi-artificer.
I think most things could fit in Greyhawk. The world is big enough! Anyone considered Warforged as an Aerdy-created weapon in the Greyhawk Wars?
I've considered the possibility. I just haven't used it yet.
I think most things could fit in Greyhawk. The world is big enough! Anyone considered Warforged as an Aerdy-created weapon in the Greyhawk Wars?
Given Leuk-O was an oeridian general, that's an intriguing possibility. However, there would be a twist. Since Ivid was enjoying heavy support from Hell, the "spirits" who inhabit the warforged could easily come from the same realm. Imagine an army of warforged.. all LE to the core...
This is for a character I am creating is an Artificer that has nature them to his creations.
Thanks for the feedback.
This is cool, I am suprised that you all think this class could fit in Greyhawk. Any another race besides the Drawf or Gnome? What about the ones from the MM series or from the "Race of ______ " books (that are +0 LA)?
This is for a character I am creating is an Artificer that has nature them to his creations.
Thanks for the feedback.
I don't think it's a class that needs to be strictly associated with any particular race.
A version of the Al-Qadim Clockwork Mage that's actually useful in combat.
All that's needed is a 3.5 update of the CM's mechanicals.
Maybe built with Craft (Mechanical) and temporarily animated with an infusion, rather than burning xp creating actual constructs. Or give the mechanicals a really low xp cost so they can come out of the class' pool.
When I saw the Artificer, my first thought was making it Baklunish.
That would fit with the LGJ take on Kwalish (sp?), he of the mecanical apperatus. In the excellent Zeif article by Fred Weining in LGJ 5, it mentions that Kwalish was a big fan of clockwork type magical devices. It's possible he has some acolytes or imitators knocking around Zeif or perhaps even the isles of the Dramidj or points west (Komal, Risay or Mur)?
P.
I think articifers fit right in if you're going for more of a 1E fantasy flavor as a opposed to a 2E medieval one.
If the intent is to port most of eberron into greyhawk why play greyhawk? why not just ask WotC to delete the Greyhawk boards and we can all go hang out in the eberron section and discuss how cool artificers, warforged, and shifters are.
or how about you just stop trying to impress YOUR view of greyahwk on others and if you don't like threads that present "diferent" alternative to what you think greyhawk should be just ignore them.
or how about you just stop trying to impress YOUR view of greyahwk on others and if you don't like threads that present "diferent" alternative to what you think greyhawk should be just ignore them.
My view of greyhawk is what was written in the boxed set. that is greyhawk.
perhaps we should starts a view threads in the forum about adding Yazarians and dralasites from starfrontiers to greyhawk as a player race? This is the greyhawk boards and the two most active topics involve eberron..why try to change Greyhawk to eberron? why not just go play eberron?
I do find it telling that the two eberron items being discussed for use in greyhawk here are the same two that are generally felt to be the most overpowered and easily abused.
Likewise, 1E Greyhawk had many more high fantasy elements than later Greyhawk products would lead you to believe. When we moved into 2E there was a conscious effort on TSR's part to dumb down Greyhawk and make more of a low-level, Medieval-style campaign setting.
Now, the original question here is do artificers fit into Greyhawk. I would say that yes, they do. Techno-magic has an history in Greyhawk. Greyhawk wasn't always an insular, primitive world. Techno-magical artifacts as I noted earlier have existed there for centuries. It's just that such "radical" campaign concepts got edited out to make Greyhawk more "traditional" as time went on and TSR/Wizards strove to reserve anything cool for settings like Forgotten Realms.
This is not to say that artificers would be as widespread in Greyhawk as they are in Eberron.
My view of greyhawk is what was written in the boxed set. that is greyhawk.
Somehow, I missed this thread. This certainly is consistent with your reactions to my "Warforged in Greyhawk" thread, I guess.
Bottom line here: If someone introduces something into a fantasy setting, there will be someone running Greyhawk who wants to talk about it in terms of adding it to their game. If it's introduced into a d20 game, and most especially into D&D, then there's going to be even more people who want to talk about such things.
If you jump on every such idea with "why don't you just go do that instead," then you have a problem. Your problem is that you're advocating stagnation in a fantasy world that was born from inclusion. Greyhawk wasn't a boxed set. It was a booklet and a collection of modules that pulled in material from sources a diverse as Tolkein, Carol, Lewis, Lieber, Lovecraft, science fiction, European christianity, Egyptian, Norse and Greek myths, etc. It then became a boxed set (several, actually), and has since been expanded into at least a dozen books, many modules, and of course all of the LG material, and all of the quasi-canon Dragon and Dungeon material.
To say that it's unreasonable for the next generation to come along and want to continue that tradition... seems odd. Greyhawk is a soup that incorporates everything. It paved the way for the thinking that spawned Forgotten Realms and Eberron. To then take back from those settings the best, most enjoyed ideas seems only fair.
If anything, Eberron is a celebration of that diversely sourced story-telling that, for example, Dragonlance was the antithesis of. Notice that Dragonlance is now gone while Greyhawk has been the basis for every edition (so far) of published D&D and continues to be enriched by storylines like Age of Worms and Blight on Bright Sands.
Embrace the post-modernist within. Abandon your fragile interpretation of Greyhawk as a static world created whole-cloth in an 1980 boxed set. Celebrate Oerth.
To say that it's unreasonable for the next generation to come along and want to continue that tradition... seems odd. Greyhawk is a soup that incorporates everything. It paved the way for the thinking that spawned Forgotten Realms and Eberron. To then take back from those settings the best, most enjoyed ideas seems only fair.
Not entirely true. GH doesn't incorporates "everything". It has many different aspects, yes. It has many cultures more or less based on real world's ones, yes too. But it's not a sink into which you can throw just about anything and hope for the best. Like it or not, hate it or not, GH's identity has been forged of its long and rich past. It has brought a special "taste" to the setting that would turn sour if you suddenly threw Elminster, Raistlin, or warforged in it.
If anything, Eberron is a celebration of that diversely sourced story-telling that, for example, Dragonlance was the antithesis of. Notice that Dragonlance is now gone while Greyhawk has been the basis for every edition (so far) of published D&D and continues to be enriched by storylines like Age of Worms and Blight on Bright Sands.
No. Eberron is a setting based on the marketing idea that to please as many D&D fans as possible (and, thus, make them buy all the accessories) a setting has to include every possible type of land, ecology, and culture. In short "if you need it, we have it". While there is certainly a certain appeal to that notion - especially to younger DM - it's just not my cup of tea and I strongly suspect I am not the only one who feels that way.
Embrace the post-modernist within. Abandon your fragile interpretation of Greyhawk as a static world created whole-cloth in an 1980 boxed set. Celebrate Oerth.
Oerth isn't static but it's an acquired taste. I praise those who are willing to fight to keep the setting true to itself. At the same time, I am not opposed to "new stuff" (to keep it short) AS LONG AS it doesn't wreck the setting's uniqueness.
I have stopped posting to your thread about bringing warforged to GH because - and I am sorry to say so - you sound hypocritical. You asked us to tell you what - according to us - would break "canon" if you brought warforged in GH but each time we presented you with arguments (true ones, not of the "go back to Eberron!" kind), you invariably tried to demonstrate we were wrong. Bottom line: if you don't care for what we think then don't bother asking for it. GH has had many different "fathers" down the years and not one of them could give an impartial opinion about what truly is canon for the setting.
Originally Posted by ajs
If you jump on every such idea with "why don't you just go do that instead," then you have a problem. Your problem is that you're advocating stagnation in a fantasy world that was born from inclusion. Greyhawk wasn't a boxed set. It was a booklet and a collection of modules that pulled in material from sources a diverse as Tolkein, Carol, Lewis, Lieber, Lovecraft, science fiction, European christianity, Egyptian, Norse and Greek myths, etc. It then became a boxed set (several, actually), and has since been expanded into at least a dozen books, many modules, and of course all of the LG material, and all of the quasi-canon Dragon and Dungeon material.
I couldn't agree more. The use of other material within Greyhawk has always been a staple of mine due to the on and off shortage of published material. At no point did that mean I wanted to play or DM elsewhere instead. Since Eberron was developed as a setting where everything that is D&D should fit then it seems perfectly sensible to me that anything from Eberron could fit in another D&D world (particularly the original and best ;) ).
I personally have not been able to get to grips with Eberron as a setting but the quality of the material is undeniable. Why should it not become part of my personal Greyhawk? As I posted earlier, artificers would change the setting hardly at all and neither would warforged given the right backstory. The lightning rail I would not use as it would change the character of the setting IMO but I would not criticise anyone else for using it.
As for other Eberron material, I recently developed a story line involving a changeling in the Viscounty of Verbobonc (shock horror!) and have the daughter of Hazendel of Sunndi married to a doppleganger promising at least one more changeling in the future. Shifters make perfect sense to me although I have not used them yet and the odd elemental powered airship may yet make an appearance in Zeif or Ekbir. If the material is good then use it. Around your gaming table it's your world, so put what you like in it!!
Somehow, I missed this thread. This certainly is consistent with your reactions to my "Warforged in Greyhawk" thread, I guess.
Constancy is a virtue sir :D
Bottom line here: If someone introduces something into a fantasy setting, there will be someone running Greyhawk who wants to talk about it in terms of adding it to their game. If it's introduced into a d20 game, and most especially into D&D, then there's going to be even more people who want to talk about such things.
Discussing opinions is a good thing and it is why we all mutually love these boards. just dont expect people to agree with every little thing you happen to post especially when what you post is in direct opposition to the base Greyhawk setting.
If you jump on every such idea with "why don't you just go do that instead," then you have a problem. Your problem is that you're advocating stagnation in a fantasy world that was born from inclusion.
How is taking over powered classes and races from other settings and dropping them into Greyhawk going to improve the campaign? Stagnant is something I have never felt Greyhawk to be anymore than I would have called LotRs a stagnant book. It is the characters actions that make a campaign live and breath not the introduction of gimmicky new races, classes, prestige classes, and powers. less is more and that is why I love Greyhawk.
Greyhawk wasn't a boxed set. It was a booklet and a collection of modules that pulled in material from sources a diverse as Tolkein, Carol, Lewis, Lieber, Lovecraft, science fiction, European christianity, Egyptian, Norse and Greek myths, etc. It then became a boxed set (several, actually), and has since been expanded into at least a dozen books, many modules, and of course all of the LG material, and all of the quasi-canon Dragon and Dungeon material.
Its a couple of booklets and a boxed set as well as modules. I own most of them. more than that it is an idiology about how a game world runs and the interactions between cultures and religions and the effect on them by the characters. minor changes such as marking a hex location and allowing your players to build a castle there is great, it makes the campaign seem alive. major changes like importing a whole new player race and class from another setting tend to derupt the setting and destroy its sense of continuity. worse it makes the setting less Greyhawk and more...something else. it is a dilution of the setting we love in the name of having new toys to be uber with.
To say that it's unreasonable for the next generation to come along and want to continue that tradition... seems odd. Greyhawk is a soup that incorporates everything. It paved the way for the thinking that spawned Forgotten Realms and Eberron. To then take back from those settings the best, most enjoyed ideas seems only fair.
I disagree and would state that eberron has nothing to do with Greyhawk. what did eberron borrow at all?
If anything, Eberron is a celebration of that diversely sourced story-telling that, for example, Dragonlance was the antithesis of.
And I think that id eberron is your prefered style of setting you should go play it and be happy rather than attempting to create a bastardized hybrid of Greyhawk and eberron. that is just an opinion from a Greyhawk traditionalist.
Notice that Dragonlance is now gone while Greyhawk has been the basis for every edition (so far) of published D&D and continues to be enriched by storylines like Age of Worms and Blight on Bright Sands.
Dragonlance was killed by the novels. everything was done and there was no room for the players to do anything really important. this is no different than trying to play in middle earth. how can you be a hero and fight sauron if you know aragorn will do it or has already done it. same thing with dragonlance.
because there are few novels describing major events in Oerth we the DMs and players can actually make a difference in the outcome at least in our own campaigns. The players can become the leaders heroes and villians of our Greyhawk stories. you dont need gimmicks for that. just the base rules and an imagination.
Embrace the post-modernist within. Abandon your fragile interpretation of Greyhawk as a static world created whole-cloth in an 1980 boxed set. Celebrate Oerth.
I do. Greyhawk is the least static campaign of all in my opinion. but then IMC I pay more mind to the role playing and interaction of my players on the world at large and dont try to alter the setting to work in every new toy that someone at WotC created to market to a DBZ fan. as was said, eberron is a marketing execs dream but upon reading that setting I find it to be shallow and boring, there is nothing new or unique in eberron and I do not like a setting that tries so hard to be new and different that it ends up coming across as fake.
Around your gaming table it's your world, so put what you like in it!!
I agree.
What I think would be likely too much would be "magewrights." These Eberron imports would suggest a much greater proliferation and distrubution of magic than has been associated with Oerth, heretofore. This would be particularly true as magic wanes.
I do not see it as a case of "Eberroning" GH. Eberron has its notable features, some of which can be ported to any other setting if a proper groundwork is laid, IMO. What makes Eberron the setting it is and what makes GH the setting it is, IMO, is in each case the history. And the two are entirely divergent.
Eberron is animated by The Last War (and the breakup of the continent wide Galifar (sp)empire) more than any other single event. Secondarily, the exploration of Xendrik animates the setting. Tertiarily, there is the kalashtar struggle, the elves of Aerenal, the Lord of Blades and the "new politics" after the Last War.
Greyhawk is animated by the continuing reverberations of the Twin Cataclysms. The aftermath of the Migrations into the Flanaess continues to be the single most animating factor. However, coming up fast in the second spot are the reprecussions of the Greyhawk Wars - the virtual and final(?) annihilation of the Flan in the Rovers and Tenh, the rise of a new "Great Kingdom" in Ahlissa, the weakness of Nyrond, the disunity of Furyondy, the "outing" of the Scarlet Brotherhood, increased contact with "new" lands in the Amedio and Hepmonaland (albeit via the SB). Tertiarily, there continues the somnambulance of Keoland and the Baklunish States, largely undisturbed in their quiet fastness, and Iuz' constant machinations that lead nowhere. GH is then a mix of old conflicts, new realities and continued quiet (by and large and certainly by comparison) in large quarters, with the fading of magic looming over all.
In the end we must all do what makes our game more fun and more realistic to us and our players. we will never all agree on anything as the nature of the DM is that we all think we know best. ;)
I guess this as well as the warforged is one of those areas where we will just have to agree to disagree especially since we seem to share much more in common otherwise.
cheers
Discussing opinions is a good thing and it is why we all mutually love these boards. just dont expect people to agree with every little thing you happen to post especially when what you post is in direct opposition to the base Greyhawk setting.
Well, that's kind of the point isn't it? How can you be in opposition to something which has such a rich history of inclusion... other than to suggest that inclusion should end?
How is taking over powered classes and races from other settings and dropping them into Greyhawk going to improve the campaign?
How is restricting player options based on the mechanics, rather than narative quality of a character going to improve the campaign?
Stagnant is something I have never felt Greyhawk to be anymore than I would have called LotRs a stagnant book. It is the characters actions that make a campaign live and breath not the introduction of ...
You are confusing campaign and setting. You are advocating a stagnant SETTING, and then suggesting that it isn't stagnant because the campaign isn't. What I'm saying is that the Greyhawk campaign SETTING was designed to be inclusive of multiple sources from multiple genres and has adapted that way since the beginning. It doesn't really matter how you incorporate steam punk, but clearly there is a desire from the player and designer base to do so. This is why you have Greyhawk quasi-canon modules like Clockwork Fortress and players and DMs like myself playing with some of the Eberron steampunk in Greyhawk. It's not that we don't want to use the Greyhawk setting, but that we see that inclusiveness as PART of the setting.
minor changes such as marking a hex location and allowing your players to build a castle there is great, it makes the campaign seem alive. major changes like importing a whole new player race and class from another setting tend to derupt the setting and destroy its sense of continuity.
How? For example, you've seen people speculating about how artificers fit into GH. You've seen some pretty good ideas here, and honestly, there's nothing in the GH background that indicates that artificers didn't exist. So what's the harm in working them in? It's not like Kyuss existed before he was worked in for AoW, but the story grew and changed, and now there's a new minor deity. The game goes on. Continuity grows and changes, as with any ongoing story.
worse it makes the setting less Greyhawk and more...something else. it is a dilution of the setting we love in the name of having new toys to be uber with.
Ok, just leave that thought behind. The world is made up of people who throw around balls of fire or weild double-bladed glowing, intelligent swords. There is absolutely no way that adding in a mage that works with mechanical toys is being done "to be uber" any moreso than the player who decides to play a wizard or a cleric (both of which can summon outsiders and bend the fabric of reality).
I disagree and would state that eberron has nothing to do with Greyhawk. what did eberron borrow at all?
The entire system; the core races; the magic system; the names of 90% of the spells; most types of dragons; for that matter most of the creatures in the world including almost all of the most important NPC races; magic items. And yet, I don't say, "If you want to play with wizards and elves and orcs and vorpal swords and magic missiles and brass dragons, why don't you play Greyhawk and let Eberron fade away like Dragonlance did?"
And I think that id eberron is your prefered style of setting you should go play it and be happy rather than attempting to create a bastardized hybrid of Greyhawk and eberron.[]QUOTE]
What if Greyhawk is what you prefer, but you like a couple of elements of Eberron? Why is it that you throw the "why don't you just play X" line into every thread that involves adding something from X to Greyhawk, when Greyhawk was born and has always grown and evolved as a collection of the best ideas from every corner of the fantasy genre?I pay more mind to the role playing and interaction of my players on the world at large and dont try to alter the setting to work in every new toy that someone at WotC created to market to a DBZ fan.
Now you're just being needlessly derogitory. Steampunk is a well established sub-genre, and the desire to add it to Greyhawk almost invariably has more to do with a fondness for the impact on the story than out of some desire for marketing. Keep in mind that Eberron was designed by a D&D fan who was not a professional writer.