Tower of Zagig, Dungeon Level 4 (2400).
Zagig created a small level of dungeon specifically
to hold in captivity nine demigods. Those chambers
are now empty and in ruin. Umber hulk tunnels
now link them with an underground cavern
and stream.
The weird thing about it is that instead of making it a nine-sided room with a sphere in each corner, they made it an eight-sided room and put Iuz's sphere in the middle, implying that Iuz was the most important of the nine. That spoils the idea that there was supposed to be a balanced assortment, one of each alignment.
I'd change it and make it a nine-sided room, with no demigod exalted above any other.
Other important rooms include PB13, which has an obelisk artifact that drains the powers of gods, enabling Zagig to capture them in the first place. P903 has a conjuration room, where Zagig used the power of the obelisk to capture the deities (and presumedly Fraz'Urb-luu).
I can't help you on the connections to the Lewis Carroll modules.
Thanks all. As I read it, it seems so uninspired. You can see where it is watered down from it's original.
You can?
How?
As the original has never been published, there is no way to compare them.
And given how the original included random levels among other things, I'd say Greyhawk Ruins is significantly more inspired.
I'd say Greyhawk Ruins is significantly more inspired.
me2
The demigods were imprisoned in Z405.
The weird thing about it is that instead of making it a nine-sided room with a sphere in each corner, they made it an eight-sided room and put Iuz's sphere in the middle, implying that Iuz was the most important of the nine. That spoils the idea that there was supposed to be a balanced assortment, one of each alignment.
This is a pattern you often see in EGG Greyhawk - the eight diametrically opposing alignments (CG/LE; NG/NE; LG/CE; LN/CN) with True Neutrality (or concordant opposition) in the centre. It appeared in Maure Castle and was used on the covers of the LGJ.
It's weird then that Iuz is the one to be in the centre though...given that he's far from N. Perhaps it was symbolising that it it was on him the Balance depends? Or if it wasn't, perhaps certain archmages with an interest in the Balance read it to be so?
P.
Rereading it, it strongly implies Iuz was the one in the center.
"Iuz was one of those imprisoned, and the only one to escape under its own power. The others have all escaped as Zagig's magic has waned over the years."
"In the center of this large octagonal room is the remains of a stone sphere. The sphere once rested half below the floor, half above. Now that portion above has been blown apart, blasted from the inside by magic so powerful it encrusted the stones with black soot that reeks of evil magic even now."
Taken together, it looks like the story is that Iuz was in the middle and he freed himself by exploding it from the inside.
Now, I've retracted my criticism about the floorplan, but there still needs to be some changes to bring this in line with other interpretations of the story.
Of course, Iuz didn't free himself; Robilar freed him. And Zuoken is apparently still there.
So change it so that the sphere in the center is still intact, and Zuoken is in that one. Iuz should have been in one of the corner prisons, one which is still mostly intact. Whether or not there were any explosions from the inside of some of the prisons as certain demigods freed themselves is optional.
Just thinking aloud...
P.
I can't help you on the connections to the Lewis Carroll modules.
IIRC this was answered in a letter from Tim Brown (I think) posted to Greyhawk some years ago; a fan wrote in asking about the EX1/2 and WG6 gates. I have a printout of the info in my archives, so I'll do some digging and let you know what I find.
From the many people I've chatted with, the majority would feel GHR is one of the best overall Greyhawk mods out there. What's even more inspired about it are the hidden nuggets of lore and hooks for adventures outside the Ruins. You just need to go over the adventure with a fine tooth comb.
I haven't read this adventure thoroughly in some time; pointers to hidden nuggets are always appreciated :D
I can't help you on the connections to the Lewis Carroll modules.
OK, here's the relevant info, in case anyone still has the original email and wants to look it up:
Subject: Greyhawk Ruins (long)
Author: Joseph Bloch (Josephuscybernex.net)
Date: 11/21/1996 12:00:00
Here is the text of a letter I received from Blake Mobley and Timothy Brown (designers of the Greyhawk Ruins module) dated September 1990. [snip]
As you probably know, the original Castle Greyhawk was reported to have over 200 levels in it. It was also constantly changing due to cave-ins and magical factors. Therefore, some of the items you mention have changed location, are not now discernable, or have been sealed off in a section of the dungeon which we did not detail.
The golden man (who was originally a wandering monster illusion in Gary's campaign) was not placed specifically in the dungeon, we decided that the illusion had ceased to exist at this point. If you wish to keep it, have the diamond golem in Z402 control it. If I remember correctly, the Great Enigma was a giant 3D head which would turn those who messed with it into warts upon its face. I do know that in Gary's castle, it was on an extremely deep level, and we decided not to include it. However, if you wish to use it, I would place it in room P715 and incorporate it into the gargoyle chair there. Of course the real enigma or puzzle about Greyhawk Ruins is that the obelisk at P813 is not the great secret, but rather the Stone in P715. Finally, the great Central Shaft has now been disrupted. It was once a great shaft which connected all of the open spiral stairways from P300 to P800 together. However, this shaft is now fragmented and will not be apparent to anyone.
In Isle of the Ape, Tenser speaks of descending the shaft and finding natural caverns, however, now it has been partially worked into smooth areas. In any event, the tunnel to the Isle of the Ape was once the hallway at P826. Because the module is no longer in stock at TSR, we couldn't refer to it directly. During play in the ruins, we decided that the tunnel was closed and thus acted like a time tunnel. We had similar restrictions concerning Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland. However, we kept these portals open. The entrance to Beyond the Magic Mirror is at Z632. The entrance to Dungeonland is at P833. Of course the entrance to Zagig's demi-plane (as well as the other ring of five members) is also on this level (we have now made it Ravenloft), but it is at P824.
Your reference to Gord the Rogue books has me puzzled. I do not recall any mention of Greyhawk Castle other than the castle in Greyhawk City. However, I will take your word for it and must admit that we overlooked this tie-in.
You are correct about Z405 [that it was the place where the 9 demigods were captured]. Furthermore, note the elements of P900 for more information about the capturing process. As far as the rest of the nine trapped gods goes, that information has been strictly guarded so that we may use it in the future as the need arises.
Graz'zt has since escaped, and thus we didn't put him in the castle. However, the relief face he was kept in was originally at P207 as a cruel joke and form of torture by Zagig (trapping a demon in a clown's face is rather severe). The statue of Boccob at P209 was assigned to guard him. His evilness still influences much of the magic of this level (as you note by reading it). However, we did not refer to Graz'zt himself due to TSR's current policy on Demons.
I hope that helps :D
Oh, wow! I had no idea they were that thorough. I think they can be forgiven for missing the short story in Night Arrant.
While I appreciate their response, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as thorough, Rip: from their tone, I get the impression that Brown and Mobley were justifying how their version was different and better, while at the same time distancing themselves from the old Gygax materials. Perhaps I'm reading too much into their words, but comments throughout like "If you wish to keep it" and "we decided not to include it. However, if you wish to use it" and "Of course the real enigma or puzzle about Greyhawk Ruins is" and how various old Gygax features "[have] now been disrupted" or smoothed over. These comments and others suggest to me that in addition to ret-conning the old content out, they're subtly trying to push the reader to use the current version without worrying about the old stuff that "we couldn't refer to [it] directly" and "we did not refer to Graz'zt himself due to TSR's current policy on Demons"---and perhaps Gygax's Castle as well, eh?
from their tone, I get the impression that Brown and Mobley were justifying how their version was different and better, while at the same time distancing themselves from the old Gygax materials.
I think you're reading too much into it. Their point is that Gygax's dungeon was (and remains to this day) a constantly changing environment. A static copy of Gygax's dungeon wouldn't be true to its spirit. I doubt the Golden Man is still roaming Gygax's version of the castle, for example.
The designers seem to have taken a great deal of care into incorporating everything they knew about Gygax's dungeon, keeping in mind that it doesn't stay still. They didn't have to include links to the Lewis Carroll modules, and in fact were specifically ordered not to by management, but they snuck them in anyway; and yet you accuse them of trying to distance themselves from the old Gygax materials? That seems unfair. They didn't have to do anything with the tunnel to the Isle of the Ape, or include remnants of the Central Shaft on the map, but they did because they were trying hard to make this true to the source material. They didn't have to include the stone face that Fraz-Urb'luu was imprisoned in, but they did despite the fact that management had (again) ordered them not to mention any demon lords. That strikes me as the opposite of what you're suggesting.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
======================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk Goodness
edit: Ok, thats the first time I've had a word auto-censored!
As you probably know, the original Castle Greyhawk was reported to have over 200 levels in it. It was also constantly changing due to cave-ins and magical factors. Therefore, some of the items you mention have changed location, are not now discernable, or have been sealed off in a section of the dungeon which we did not detail.
I think another often overlooked difference between EGG's original castle/dungeons and the version used in the published setting is that of scope and context.
Keep in mind, as far as I can tell, castle greyhawk was/is EGG's greyhawk campaign. You had the dungeon, and a city nearby where the PCs could rest, spend their loot, gather rumors, etc. Entire campaigns were run solely within the dungeon. It's a fine style of play, especially for its time, but it's not the style used in the published campaign.
In published greyhawk, the dungeon is one of many, likely a major chapter in a campaign, but probably not usually the whole of the adventures. The simple fact that 1st level PCs foolish enough to brave the ruins will face a meatgrinder scenario, if they even manage to get past the demi-human thugs watching over the entrances is evidence that in the modern published campaign, the castle is meant to be an episode, or the climax, of a campaign, not the entire campaign itself.
And if you think the dungeons are too small, expand them! Play off of Mobley & Cook's comment about constant changes and add side tunnels or secret passages that lead to areas you borrow from other sources. EGG's forthcoming Castle Zagyg material is ideal for such a purpose. In the past I've even used bits from the various Undermountain products to expand the dungeon. Of course, there's the links to Dungeonland and LBTMM that have been mentioned here, and you could even borrow some of the less ridiculous areas from the WG7 Castle Greyhawk adventure to flesh things out. Customization, adaptation and limitless possibilities are, to me, the hallmarks of EGG's dungeon, and even he constantly tweaked the place to suit the various heroes and bands of heroes that delved it. Make it your own, change what you dont like, add what you think improves it, and don't feel bound by what Greyhawk Ruins established.
And if your players have already done their time in the ruins, but you have a cool idea for an expansion, it's easy to lure them back. Just have them overhear a rumor in greyhawk city about some new area found by recent adventurers. Imagine their surprise when they go back to find the monsters have repopulated, the traps have reset and changed, and hallways and rooms no longer match up to that map they took so much care to create the first time.
I know in various online reviews peple said it had been edited heavily but I can't make sense of it.
Thanks in advance
John <><