* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Questions about 2nd edition Started at 09-23-03 10:26 PM by mickshrimpton Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=104289 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : mickshrimpton Date : 09-23-03 10:26 PM Thread Title : Questions about 2nd edition My dislike of the comic-book-roll-playing style of 3e/3.5 has lead me to re-examine 2nd edition, but there are some questions about it that I would love to have considered... 1) What is the rationale of having weapons do different damage versus S/M and L opponents? 2) Thieves and Rangers have various abilities like Hide in Shadows, etc...but their ability to use these skills at lower levels is pathetic -- perhaps even useless. NWP, however, give PCs far better chances at lower level. Why weren't thief-type skills used as NWP? Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 09-24-03 05:45 AM Thread Title : Re: Questions about 2nd edition Originally posted by mickshrimpton My dislike of the comic-book-roll-playing style of 3e/3.5 has lead me to re-examine 2nd edition, Welcome back, then :-) Originally posted by mickshrimpton 1) What is the rationale of having weapons do different damage versus S/M and L opponents? [/B] It' likely to be a way to represent the fact that a smaller weapon cannot be effectively used against a large opponent, for example because the weapon relies on its ability to penetrate a small layer of tissue, when the defender has a ticker skin. On the other hand, other weapons may be equally dangerous for a small or large opponent. Then, since the large opponent is likely to have more HP, the damage inflicted is adjusted to take care of this. Originally posted by mickshrimpton 2) Thieves and Rangers have various abilities like Hide in Shadows, etc...but their ability to use these skills at lower levels is pathetic -- perhaps even useless. NWP, however, give PCs far better chances at lower level. Why weren't thief-type skills used as NWP? [/B] Because thieves would have little interest in raising through levels if their abilities did not grow significantly. However, a thief can choose to devote up to 50% of his ability points to a single ability. Therefore, you can have a third level thief with significant ability in one or two of the thieving skills. You should also consider that even with a not so great skill level (say, 50%), the Thief still has a reasonable chance of, say, opening a mediocre or poor lock -- certainly, it would be difficult to pick a good lock. Things might be adjusted to work somewhat better for lower level thieves, of course, by giving more initial skill points and less discretionary points at higher levels. Or, you might simply remove the skills, make them into NWPs (as in certain OD&D products, see the Shadow Elf Gazetteer somewhere in the WotC downloads), and give the thief more NWP slots. You might then want to use Player's Option's version of NWPs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Lord_Soto Date : 09-24-03 06:00 AM Thread Title : Re: Questions about 2nd edition Originally posted by mickshrimpton 1) What is the rationale of having weapons do different damage versus S/M and L opponents? The rational was that a small weapon, like a shortsword or a dagger, was fully capable of striking a killing blow to a person, but, unless you were really luck (critical hit, etc), you were not going to pierce any internal organs on say, a blue whale or a dragon. I realize that example is somewhat ridiculous, but, another way to look at it is this. If someone runs you through with a dagger, at the same time you run them through with a spear, both of you have been completely pierced by the weapon in question. The cutting path and length of the cut (in one side, out the other) is approximately the same. However, stab an elephant with the dagger and an elephant with the spear, and, aside from a minor irritation, the blow from the dagger has no chance of penetrating more than six or so inches into the elephant's body. The spear, on the other hand, if properly handled, could pierce 1-2 feet of elephant hide, and possibly a few internal organs. Thus, against a much larger creature, the dagger is going to do less damage, because it isn't capable of cutting as deeply in a single blow, and a spear is going to do more damage because it is capable of inflicting deeper wounds against a large creature than a small creature, where the wound is limited by the 'thickness (if you will)' of the creature in question. I hope that made sense. 2) Thieves and Rangers have various abilities like Hide in Shadows, etc...but their ability to use these skills at lower levels is pathetic -- perhaps even useless. NWP, however, give PCs far better chances at lower level. Why weren't thief-type skills used as NWP? Under the percentile rules, thieves were able to improve their skills every level. Since 2e proficiency advancement was much slower, if they had to wait 4 levels for every proficiency, their skills might have started out better, but adding one point every few levels would mean that thieves would have fewer proficiencies that weren't spent on thieving, and there would not be a dramatic difference between where the theif started and where he ended up at 20th level. Also, there are no proficiencies that absolutely mimic thieving skills. Hide (from the Complete Humanoids) and Camoflauge (not sure where I tracked that one down from) both require time to prepare a hiding place--and, more importantly a place to hide. Hide in Shadows was something a thief could do just by standing still in a dark place, and was more a skill of fooling the eye as opposed to finding a safe hiding place. Mountaineering adds to a character's ability to climb, but it requires the use of ropes, pitons, etc for climbing. Climb walls as a thief skill assumes the character is climbing free-hand. The closest comparison is the wizard spell 'spider climb' but without the ability to hang by a single limb and walk on ceilings. Additionally, for all the fans of Balance out there, having thief skills that start out on the borderline edge of useless keeps the thief from overpowering the puny wizard at first level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.