Thoughts?
Can you elaborate on that feat?
To quote Data: Unknown.
Can you elaborate on that feat?
The feat allows the caster to drain gp value from items in order to power spells. The item's gp value was converted to some point system (I don't know the exact equation). The caster was able to bump their effective caster level equal to their Int modifier depending on the amount of energy they drained from an item. At some point, if the item was drain enough of its gp value the item would cease working. Non-consumable items (items that weren't potions, scrolls or wands) were able to regenerate their gp value as set number of points a day.
Thats the simplied/abridged version of the feat anyway. As I said, the feat as writen was a little broken, but the concept was pretty DS oriented and flavored IMO.
I'm not in favor of letting the use of energy from magic items like how is done in Dragonlance be available to anyone other than Avangions.
Sysane, storm magic?
I tend to work with the idea that like with Animal life-energy, drawing the energy from items is... well.... above the realms of capability for Defilers & Preservers through magic alone. I actually have been working with the notion that stealing the power from items, and internalizing it, is an integral part of the process to become an Avangion through the various metamorphosis spells (just like stealing the life energy from animals/people is important for Dragons). This process, I believe, begins to build a "well" of energy for the Avangion -- magic items don't really "wear down" in their power (except for charges), and tend to have an infinite (or near-infinite) capability to use that energy. I think it's tapping into that idea, and stealing the stored energy from these items, which gives the Avangion that "sort of like personal Tree of Life" effect for casting spells.
I'm not in favor of letting the use of energy from magic items like how is done in Dragonlance be available to anyone other than Avangions.
I can understand where your coming from to a point. However, don't necessarily see where draining items of their magic being in the realm of epic only other than you tying to Avangions.
Sysane, storm magic?
Cerulean wizards.
Cerulean
Ok
I thought you were referencing some new idea like Brian's Storm Empire.I can understand where your coming from to a point. However, don't necessarily see where draining items of their magic being in thec realm of epic only other than you tying to Avangions.
Basically, that's the big thing. It's something on the scale of difference that drawing energy from animals would be, in my eye. And not just "Epic Only" but exclusive to a particular kind of Advanced Being.
Basically, that's the big thing. It's something on the scale of difference that drawing energy from animals would be, in my eye. And not just "Epic Only" but exclusive to a particular kind of Advanced Being.
Ah, but you see, the leech PrC allows non-dragons to tap into animal life force. So it would stand to reason that non-avangions would be able to use the energy in magic items as well.
Ah, but you see, the leech PrC allows non-dragons to tap into animal life force.
The effects of the leech's life-draining radius is in addition to the effects of plant defiling, it cannot work where there isn't plant life.
(If you compare the wording of the leech ability to that of the dragon ability, you'll see that the dragon can do so, i.e. cast spells where there are people but no plants.)
Life-draining Radius: Living beings caught in the leech’s defiling radius suffer 1 point of damage per level of the spell being cast, e.g. a 5th level spell would inflict 5 points of damage to all creatures caught in the radius. The leech must have an obsidian focus worth at least 250 Cp in order to use life-draining radius. The focus can be magical or nonmagical and can be of any shape. Masterwork obsidian daggers are popular foci.
Dragon Magic (Su): Athasian dragons can choose to power their spells with energy from living creatures rather than plants; when using living creatures, the “terrain” is treated as fertile. Casting in this way is considered defiling and subject to all the rules thereof. Living creatures caught in the defiling radius of the athasian dragon, when they are using dragon magic take 2 points of damage per level of the spell being cast. (0 level spells inflict1 point of damage.) Dragon magic requires a piece of masterwork obsidian of a value of least 250cp as a focus.
As such, the leech's ability to affect animal life cannot be used as a precedent to allow creatures other than epic beings to cast exlusively from a source other than plants. If the parallel was kept with the leech, then the ability to drain items would work as such: items caught in your defiling radius lose a number of Cp per spell level of the spell, and if that value is equal or higher than the value of the item, the latter is destroyed.
I'm pretty sure its not what you want. You want exclusive powering from an item.
Without further considerations, there are a number of 3E ways to accomplish this: a feat, class ability, template, spell, or epic spell.
Its just a matter of determining at what power level accomplishing such a feat is, thus we'll find the correct 3E outlet to bring it to life.
(For example, FR's Spellfire Channeler can do so as a class ability.)
The effects of the leech's life-draining radius is in addition to the effects of plant defiling, it cannot work where there isn't plant life.
(If you compare the wording of the leech ability to that of the dragon ability, you'll see that the dragon can do so, i.e. cast spells where there are people but no plants.)
As such, the leech's ability to affect animal life cannot be used as a precedent to allow creatures other than epic beings to cast exlusively from a source other than plants. If the parallel was kept with the leech, then the ability to drain items would work as such: items caught in your defiling radius lose a number of Cp per spell level of the spell, and if that value is equal or higher than the value of the item, the latter is destroyed.
I'm pretty sure its not what you want. You want exclusive powering from an item.
Without further considerations, there are a number of 3E ways to accomplish this: a feat, class ability, template, spell, or epic spell.
Its just a matter of determining at what power level accomplishing such a feat is, thus we'll find the correct 3E outlet to bring it to life.
(For example, FR's Spellfire Channeler can do so as a class ability.)
Actually, I'm not proposing anything other than that energy can be siphoned from items for the purposes of spell casting. If the leech can use animal life force in order to boost their spell or for increased effect its not unreasonable to think that the same could hold true for magic items.
Actually, I'm not proposing anything other than that energy can be siphoned from items for the purposes of spell casting. If the leech can use animal life force in order to boost their spell or for increased effect its not unreasonable to think that the same could hold true for magic items.
True. IF it is used in conjunction with the energy gathered from plants... then maybe something like this could help explain a sorcerer-king's spies within their city-state's Veiled Allinace (myrmedons or whatever they are called) -- the myrmedon taps into magic items while siphoning the life-energy from plants, combining the two together as possibly a suppliment to avoid appearing as a defiler. Of course, it would need to be something that is not inexhaustible, and something that would be relatively exclusive/secret knowledge -- maybe use the myrmedon concept for defilers, and then something else for preservers?
True. IF it is used in conjunction with the energy gathered from plants... then maybe something like this could help explain a sorcerer-king's spies within their city-state's Veiled Allinace (myrmedons or whatever they are called) -- the myrmedon taps into magic items while siphoning the life-energy from plants, combining the two together as possibly a suppliment to avoid appearing as a defiler. Of course, it would need to be something that is not inexhaustible, and something that would be relatively exclusive/secret knowledge -- maybe use the myrmedon concept for defilers, and then something else for preservers?
If it were to be used, I think the mechanic would need to in the form of a PrC due to, most if not all, alternate energy sources in DS being "packaged" in that format.
It would help explain the line in VA that says myrmeleons conceal small magic items on their person.
I believe that for simplicity's sake the mechanic would need to be a feat. It allows you to draw power from one item touched at a time. This power replaces what extra energy is taken through defiling, causing the user to effectively preserve.
A continuous use item is partially drained at each casting, but regenerates lost "energy". A noncontinuous item becomes nonmagical after a number of castings.
So a defiler with this feat and a concealed (or not, not much important) item on his person casts a spell: he appears to preserve.
The feat would, again for simplicity's sake, cause the defiler to be unable to use raze feats and defiler class abilities.
Yeah, I could see this in use.
If it were to be used, I think the mechanic would need to in the form of a PrC due to, most if not all, alternate energy sources in DS being "packaged" in that format.
The myrmeleon class already exists, and using items as a partial power source trully has no other function than A) passing as a VA member, and B) surviving in post-Kalak Tyr. As such, this ability you imagine is used by myrmeleons or defilers trying to survive in Tyr, or some such place where preservers are OK but defilers are hunted.
Since there's already a myrmeleon PrC, I suggest making a feat.
Note: There's already four ways of passing as a preserver that I know of. Taking levels in the myrmeleon class, using one of two magic items, or acquiring a certain cursed magic item. (Items are in the upcoming Guide.)
The myrmeleon class already exists, and using items as a partial power source trully has no other function than A) passing as a VA member, and B) surviving in post-Kalak Tyr. As such, this ability you imagine is used by myrmeleons or defilers trying to survive in Tyr, or some such place where preservers are OK but defilers are hunted.
Since there's already a myrmeleon PrC, I suggest making a feat.
Note: There's already four ways of passing as a preserver that I know of. Taking levels in the myrmeleon class, using one of two magic items, or acquiring a certain cursed magic item. (Items are in the upcoming Guide.)
Thats if your veiwing that the draining of items is being used solely for hiding ones defiler status which is NOT what I'm purposing. Maybe a feat could be created but that sort of tramples on the myrmeleon's niche in DS. What I'm suggesting is either a feat, series of feats, or PrC that allows a wizard to augment or enhance their spellcasting thru the draining of items.
Thats if your veiwing that the draining of items is being used solely for hiding ones defiler status which is NOT what I'm purposing. Maybe a feat could be created but that sort of tramples on the myrmeleon's niche in DS. What I'm suggesting is either a feat, series of feats, or PrC that allows a wizard to augment or enhance their spellcasting thru the draining of items.
Which is why I was using the myrmedon as an example of someone using items as such. I could see there being other uses as well, but I definitely don't see this as something that's even remotely common knowledge.
Which is why I was using the myrmedon as an example of someone using items as such. I could see there being other uses as well, but I definitely don't see this as something that's even remotely common knowledge.
Of course not. Just like being a leeches, ceruleans, or shadow wizards aren't common place.
Of course not. Just like being a leeches, ceruleans, or shadow wizards aren't common place.
The energy those classes use is all around them, while this "magic item wizard" would need magic items to drain to even start having an advantage over his enemies, and we all know how rare and costly items are. (Black, Gray, and Cerulean stuff on the other hand costs nothing.)
The energy those classes use is all around them, while this "magic item wizard" would need magic items to drain to even start having an advantage over his enemies, and we all know how rare and costly items are. (Black, Gray, and Cerulean stuff on the other hand costs nothing.)
Arcane items maybe rare, but psionic and divine would be slighty more common. Hence why using this form of energy would be for the purposes of enhancing or supplementing wizards using those other energy types not replacing them.
I would never allow a wizard to drain a psionic item, or a psion to drain a magic item.
Eh...I guess it depends on whether your using the transparency rule or not.
Pfff, man, I don't want to go in there. Use Magic Device doesn't work on psionic items, SR doesn't work on psionic powers, etc. About all I'm gonna say about my position.
Gha, that again....
Pfff, man, I don't want to go in there. Use Magic Device doesn't work on psionic items, SR doesn't work on psionic powers, etc. About all I'm gonna say about my position.
Yeah, options are a real @#$%! aren't they ;)
The energy those classes use is all around them, while this "magic item wizard" would need magic items to drain to even start having an advantage over his enemies, and we all know how rare and costly items are. (Black, Gray, and Cerulean stuff on the other hand costs nothing.)
Penn -- what if the energy drained is really only a small portion of the energy stored in the item, rather than draining the items completely? What if a prerequisite is to have at least one Magic Item Creation Feat -- which would mean the character could conceivably make the items he or she needs for this bizarre energy use? To use a way overused colliquilism, "think outside the box" for a second, and consider it. I was appalled by the Leech PrC originally, but have grown to understand it, and even like it a bit now. This would be something along those lines... in a world where Arcane magic comes at a cost, but where the resources are also rather limited, the odds are that people would try alternative approaches to at least extend what they have available to themselves.
These "magic-item leeches" might not be able to fully supplant the need for plant-life, but maybe they can tap into a magic item to, as Sysane is suggesting, augment or enhance their normal spells a little. Nothing extremely drastic, just something to provide a slight variation on the theme for arcane spellcasters.
Arcane items maybe rare, but psionic and divine would be slighty more common. Hence why using this form of energy would be for the purposes of enhancing or supplementing wizards using those other energy types not replacing them.
I see what you're saying here Sysane. It's definitely sparked my curiosity on the subject. While I run with a "psionics are different rule" and would probably not allow psionic items to be used in this fashion, I could see such a character knowing how to make small magic items to use as "batteries" of sorts to later drain for his or her spell enhancements.
Its why I proposed that using items in this way would only benefit defilers, in that it would effectively prevent their energy gathering from defiling.
I get what you two are saying, I'm only worried that PCs will attempt to acquire this new method so they can boost their spells. If they already have spell-boosting feats, items, and PrC abiltiies, this will make them more powerful, way more.
Its why I proposed that using items in this way would only benefit defilers, in that it would effectively prevent their energy gathering from defiling.
Well, if this kind of enhancement is not stackable with metamagic feats and the such...
Penn -- what if the energy drained is really only a small portion of the energy stored in the item, rather than draining the items completely? What if a prerequisite is to have at least one Magic Item Creation Feat -- which would mean the character could conceivably make the items he or she needs for this bizarre energy use? To use a way overused colliquilism, "think outside the box" for a second, and consider it. I was appalled by the Leech PrC originally, but have grown to understand it, and even like it a bit now. This would be something along those lines... in a world where Arcane magic comes at a cost, but where the resources are also rather limited, the odds are that people would try alternative approaches to at least extend what they have available to themselves.
These "magic-item leeches" might not be able to fully supplant the need for plant-life, but maybe they can tap into a magic item to, as Sysane is suggesting, augment or enhance their normal spells a little. Nothing extremely drastic, just something to provide a slight variation on the theme for arcane spellcasters.
Exactly. I've started to put together a item leech like PrC tentatively called a Syphon. One of the prereqs is for the character to have two or three item creations feats. I'm losely basing it off the FR's spellfire mechanics but not nearly as powerful.
I'll have something up here on the boards shortly.
Thoughts and insults are encouraged.
Siphon Charged Item (Su): At 2nd level, a syphon can drain energy from magic items to power his spells. As a move equivalent action while casting a spell, the syphon can drain two charges from a charged item in his possession (including single use items such as potions and scrolls) for its energy in order to increase their effective caster level by one. At 6th level he can choose to drain three charges in order to increase their effective caster level by two. At 10th level he can choose to drain four charges in order to increase their effective caster level by three. A fully drained item loses its magical properties (potions and scrolls become non magical liquid and paper).
Thoughts and insults are encouraged.
You smell bad! And you... look... red. :P
Alright, let me repharse that. Are their any insults of thoughts about the mechanic :P
Ok, they smell bad! Plus, you... look... red. :P
I imagine draining chargless items will be a class ability that comes later?
Potions are not always liquids, so maybe just mentionning that potions and scrolls become nonmagical is enough.
I imagine draining chargless items will be a class ability that comes later?
Yes, but instead of increased caster levels in would grant an empower spell like effect for suppressing the chargeless item's magic for 24 hours. There's a little more to it than that, but thats major effect.
I like the idea of suppressing use for 24 hours, it prevents some messiness.
Maybe there should be a minimum amount of Cp for the value of chargless items, or people would get several copies of the cheapest possible continuous use item.
I like the idea of suppressing use for 24 hours, it prevents some messiness.
I was actually thinking this over a little more last night and may base the effect gained from suppressing a chargeless item on either the gp/cp cost or the caster level of the actual item. I'm leaning more towards the caster level feeling it would be less messy.
The mechanic seems well balanced, one thing to note however is that it can be used "on the cheap" so to speak. I have my wizard make a huge supply of 0-level scrolls (or better have a cohort wizard do this for me), then I use this supply of 0-level scrolls to power-up my 9th-level spells. If I were going into this Prc I would be tempted to do this sort of thing, though I would probably go for 0-level wands instead (list price 375gp.). You could get 25 uses out of this ability by taking a day to craft a wand of detect magic at a cost of 15xp and 187.5cp.
Personally I would suggest adding something similar to the following language:
You must use an item (or items) that contain at least a 1st level spell the augment any 1st-3rd level spell. At least a 2nd level spell to augment any 4th-6th level spell. And at least a 3rd level spell to augment any 7th-9th level spell.
So this ability is merely an augmentation, the primary spell energy is being pulled from the land still (or whatever other source the wizard normally uses)? And it take a full round action to do this and cast a spell that normally takes a standard action?
The mechanic seems well balanced, one thing to note however is that it can be used "on the cheap" so to speak. I have my wizard make a huge supply of 0-level scrolls (or better have a cohort wizard do this for me), then I use this supply of 0-level scrolls to power-up my 9th-level spells. If I were going into this Prc I would be tempted to do this sort of thing, though I would probably go for 0-level wands instead (list price 375gp.). You could get 25 uses out of this ability by taking a day to craft a wand of detect magic at a cost of 15xp and 187.5cp.
Personally I would suggest adding something similar to the following language:
You must use an item (or items) that contain at least a 1st level spell the augment any 1st-3rd level spell. At least a 2nd level spell to augment any 4th-6th level spell. And at least a 3rd level spell to augment any 7th-9th level spell.
Thats still a lot pf work in order to to gain a +1 caster level. You also would burn out the wand at some point as well. A leech can use cannibalizing raze any number of time as day and takes only 1d8 points of damage which can be healed.
However, I do understand your concern. What if I put in that each time a wizard siphons a charged item that there is a flat 10% chance of out right destorying it?
Thats still a lot pf work in order to to gain a +1 caster level. You also would burn out the wand at some point as well. A leech can use cannibalizing raze any number of time as day and takes only 1d8 points of damage which can be healed.
True. I realize the wand would burn out. The leech can't heal that damage himself by casting a spell.
However, I do understand your concern. What if I put in that each time a wizard siphons a charged item that there is a flat 10% chance of out right destorying it?
As for coolness factor
, In terms of fixing the issue :thumbsdow I just think that the amount of magically energy you are actually siphoning should come into play. Two charges from a wand of detect magic is less magical energy then two charges from a wand of fireballs and should have a comeasurately less powerful effect in augmenting spells. I'm sure there are a number of ways to do that. In addition to my previous suggestion, I can think of a couple of other ways:
1. The level of the spell being drained limits how much you can augment by draining it. So you could set it up so that draining 2-1st level charges allows you to augment a spell by one caster level. 2-2nd level or 4-1st level charges allows you to augment a spell by two caster levels. And 2-3rd level or 3-2nd level or 6-1st level charges lets you augment a spell by three caster levels. Something along those lines.
2. You could say that the chance of the object being istantly destroyed was based off of howmuch you were trying to augment a spell by vs. how powerful an object you were draining. But, of course the central flaw with this method object destruction method is that it has no effect on single use items.
True. I realize the wand would burn out. The leech can't heal that damage himself by casting a spell.
No, but others and items can. There's spells that would allow you to offset that damage as well. (i.e. vampric touch, false life, Con increasing effects, etc...).
As for coolness factor
I just think that the amount of magically energy you are actually siphoning should come into play. Two charges from a wand of detect magic is less magical energy then two charges from a wand of fireballs and should have a comeasurately less powerful effect in augmenting spells. I'm sure there are a number of ways to do that. In addition to my previous suggestion, I can think of a couple of other ways:
1. The level of the spell being drained limits how much you can augment by draining it. So you could set it up so that draining 2-1st level charges allows you to augment a spell by one caster level. 2-2nd level or 4-1st level charges allows you to augment a spell by two caster levels. And 2-3rd level or 3-2nd level or 6-1st level charges lets you augment a spell by three caster levels. Something along those lines.
2. You could say that the chance of the object being istantly destroyed was based off of howmuch you were trying to augment a spell by vs. how powerful an object you were draining. But, of course the central flaw with this method object destruction method is that it has no effect on single use items
This enters into the messiness factor that Pen mentioned. Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with the mechanic as is with the addition of a % chance of destorying the item. To address "no draw back" to single use items, I could make it that items destoryed in this manner do not increase the character's caster level.
Well I think you should at least make it so that you cannot use 0-level items in this fashion.
I could have it that 0-level spell items work, but are immediately destoryed after being siphoned.
Input is greatly appreciated
Siphon Charged Item: At 2nd level, a syphon can draw energy from magic items to power his spells. As a move-equivalent action while casting a spell, the syphon can drain two charges from a charged item in his possession (including single use items such as potions and scrolls) for its energy in order to increase his effective caster level by one. At 6th level he can choose to drain three charges in order to increase his effective caster level by two. At 10th level he can choose to drain four charges in order to increase his effective caster level by three. A fully drained item loses its magical properties (i.e. potions and scrolls become non magical liquid and paper).
Siphoning magic items does not come without risk. As the syphon drains a magic item they may permanently destroy it. The chance of destroying the item is equal to 5% (15% maximum) per caster level increased by the siphoning attempt. For example, if a 6th level siphon drains an item to boost his caster level by two, he has a 10% chance of destroying the magic item. Items destroyed in this manner turn to ash and the syphon does not receive the boost in caster level.
Siphon Permanent Item: Starting at 5th level, the syphon can drain power from permanent magic items. As a standard action, the syphon may drain a permanent magic item in his possession suppressing it’s magic (as if affected by a dispel magic) for 24 hours. The following round, the syphon may apply any metamagic feat that he knows to a spell 3rd level or lower, but does not use a higher-level spell slot.
As with siphoning charged items, there is also a risk that comes with draining permanent magic items. As the syphon drains a permanent magic item, the item must make a Will saving throw ( DC of 10 + syphon’s class level ) or be rendered permanently non-magic (see SRD; Damaging Magic Items, for details on item saving throws). Major artifacts can not be suppressed or destroyed in this manner, but can still be siphoned if it fails a Will saving throw ( DC of 10 + syphon’s class level + Intelligence modifier ). The artifact gains a +15 bonus for the purposes of this saving throw. At 8th level, the syphon may apply the metamagic effect to 9th levels spells or lower.