1. Demons--real demons, not the wimpy wannabes from the 'Outer' Planes :-)--trying to create a world based on Evil as a mockery of God's creation of the normal word. However, they're limited both in power, so they have to 'anchor' the parts of their fabricated universe in the ethereal resonance of tormented and wicked souls, and by the uncreative nature of Evil, so all they can do is warped versions of the Material Plane that still retain a lot of Good.
2. The Dark Powers don't exist as such--what happens is that Strahd's delving into forbidden sorceries bound him to Barovia, and when he wound up transformed into a vampire, he dragged the land into a paralleling state as the core of the Demiplane. In addition, the combination of the dark pact and his strange magics have set the curse he drew down upon himself and the land up so that it continues to grow like a cancer, reaching out into the Material Plane and snatching up entities, sometimes by chance, sometimes because of their darkened souls. In some cases, the ties between the Great Curse and the victim create a darklord, and then drag in another location from the Material Plane whose ethereal resonance interfaces with the newly created lord. (There may even be a couple of cases where the Land actually sends out a simulacrum of the darklord to bring the chosen location's history into perfect alignment. Cf. Drakov's 'conquest' of Falkovnia or the case of Lord Darcalus of Darkon.)
Matthew L. Martin
Who are the DPs? Ultimately, they are me, an ironic, vindictive, sadistic cynic with a penchant for morally amibiguous melodrama. They are psycho-sociologists with limitless time and patience, dedicated to the incarceration, punishment (NOT rehabilitation), and intensive study of what evil is in all its myriad manifestations in the human experience.
They are amused by the differences between John Q. Public and John Q. Hero, and secondary to their mission of tormenting the immensely evil people, the DPs love throwing heroic opportunities with Pyrrhic endings at those with the potential for greatness in order to further study what makes the great people great and the terrible people terrible.
In all this, I would class them proto-deities, and (hopefully) refer you to an old episode of Star Trek. In it, the crew of the Enterprise are taken prisoner and forced to undergo a series of trials by a disembodied voice with the power to do almost anything. The episode ends when the disembodied voice's parents come along and say something to the effect of, "Leave the little creatures alone and go to your room." Everything is restored to its previous state, and the crew of the Enterprise are left bewildered, but ultimately unchanged. The DPs, then, are deities, but ones that maybe haven't decided on their alignments and portfolios yet; they're playing with the extremes of the human existence to learn where their interests lie so that, in a few milennia or so, they can leave their Ravenloft sandbox behind and actually create a full-on world of their own.
So, what are the DPs? God-children.
What is the purpose of Ravenloft? A battleground, the opposite of that of the Blood War on the Planes. Where the Blood War is fought over externalized concepts within evil of Law versus Chaos, RL's war is that of internalized Good versus Evil.
Again, only my two cp's.
What could be more gothic then the irony of the capture being tormented by his captives? Whatever judged and condemmed the Vistani to Ravenloft empowered them to judge and punish others. It works as a group consciouseness (subconsciousness?); individually they are week, but together they have to power to imprison demi-gods.
Perhaps their crime is somehow tied to Strahd......perhaps "Death" that Strahd mentioned is the same individual who judged and imprisoned the Vistani.
This is just the beginnings of a theory, but Van Richten proposed the Vistani might actually be the Dark Powers in VRGTV. However, this idea seems to have been rejected by everyone except me, since the Vistani are not bad assed or evil enough to fit everyone's idea of what the Dark Powers should be.
My point is that Ravenloft should be based on personality not all powerful evil.
I assume you started this thread for one of two reasons: to fully understand the ravenloft world, or to get ideas. If the former, thr is no answer other than what I said. For the latter...any of the above could work, if the PCs have the right reaction to them.
Other than that, that enjoy simultaneously punishing and rewarding evil, testing the bonds and sanity of good, and messing with neutrality for having the gaul to think thy found a loophole. (see powers checks, fear/horror checks, and what happened to the druids of Forlorn). They are the embodyment of every DM who cackles maniacly whenever a PC makes the error of casting "Wish". They are in place because Wizards and Fighters with Magical Swords are much more effective against vampires than real estate agents and country physicians...and therefore need something "more" to scare them.
I personally like the idea presented the last module of the "Vecna" series. The DP are ancient god-entities that predated the current assortments and are in the same class of deity as Asmodeus, The Lady of Pain, and Vecna's Serpent. This class of deities are considered greater deities but they don't need the worship of mortals to sustain their existence.
That's good, for a "Weekend in Hell" scenario, where Ravenloft is just a small part of the game (fits well into the cosmology). Not so great for an actual Ravenloft campaign (though doable...or could be a springboard to an idea on what they are that fits the criteria of messing with players)
Evil gnomes!
They're evil gnomes. Really, if you think about it closely, what else could they be?
Evil gnomes!
you could have something like the revelation of who the precursers were in Jak3
"The portal to the dark powers opens up and you see several gnomes talking into a megaphone to make their voices more ominus"
They're evil gnomes. Really, if you think about it closely, what else could they be?
Evil gnomes!
Step 1: Evil demiplane of dread that rewards and punishes evil and messes with good with a cruel and ironic malevolence.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3062
-- TwiceBorn
Step 1: Evil demiplane of dread that rewards and punishes evil and messes with good with a cruel and ironic malevolence.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!
I love it! A pointless self-perpetuating system with no possible end.
And hey, if they squish someone like a bug, no one cares - 'cause their too busy trying to understand what corporations are.
It reminds me of the movie Cube - where a bunch of random people are kidnapped and locked in a gigantic death trap with just barely enough skills between them to get out.
There was a theory behind the pointless death trap - that it was built and maintained by thousands of people - none of whom had any idea of whay they were doing what they were doing it - nor cared. The device served no purpose - it just was.
Imagine if a huge number of gods set about creating a world - perhaps the first world ever in the multiverse. No god at that time would ahve had any experience working with other to create a world.
What happens when they have to create a world by committee? The same things that happen whenever a committee gets involved: chaos.
Ravenloft, once had had a purpose. Its just that whatever that purpose was, was forgotten before the damn thing got finished. Every time one being came up with an idea, that idea was co-oped and warped to some other purpose.
The demiplane's rules continued to be designed according to an ever-changing series of specs. Evil is rewarded. Evil is punished. This land gets jammed up against that land - and if that doesn't make sense then wipe everyone's memory and convince them it was always like that.
Reinterpreted, reinvented, redesigned - the demiplane serves no purpose. The plane spiralled into more and more confounding rules as the gods wrestled with their creation - trying in vain to make some sort of sense out of the ethreal mess they had created.
The gods, sensing the futility of their efforts, destroyed the solid structure of their proto-word and cast it free in the ethreal. They made a pact - since their combined medeling had caused the problem they would all swear against touching the demiplane again.
But, little would they realize that their creation had taken a life of its own. Shadows of the Gods began to emerge as manifestations of the thousands of different ideas at work. Though fileld with a plethora of different personalities, all felt the compulsion to build. Sentient though they were, these Dark Powers were incomplete. They were but splinters of godling personalities - not whole and complete beings. To create they would need a complete being - one with the will and power to create an solid, permanent anchor - an anchor upon which all other lands could be built.
They needed a being with the power and motivation to create a reality unto himself - a little world of his own making - yet one that would perpetuate itself for eternity.
And so they found one - in Strahd.
Worst case scenario: Ravenloft is attached to the demi-plane of dread (which in 3.5 I'm guessing is not all that different from the demi-plane of nightmares...). And in the vein the DP are actually the manifestation of Dread. They are the worst nightmare of everything in the cosmos. They torment and tease evil with the promise of power only to take it all away by shackling them in an eternal prison. They torment and tease good with the promise of saving the land/salvation from this prison world only to take it all away by destroying them in the end.
Plausible Scenario 2: The Dark Powers are actually a collective of arch-celestial and arch-fiendish beings who have gotten together to conduct a cosmological experiment. In order to test the power of Good in the multiverse Evil is granted a demense wherein it garners significant initial advantages, but in the end will destroy itself. The purpose: With this world teetering on the brink of self-annihilation, where the power of Evil is great can the power of Good save this world from bringing ruin upon itself. Can people resist the urge to give in to Evil because it is the easy way to go? Premise: Certain acts of evil are forbidden in order to foster the continued existence of beings within the experiment. For example: Innocent beings are protected against much of what Ravenloft has to offer. (without this protection it is hard to explain why creatures with prodiguous birthing rates haven't taken over Ravenloft since only they could keep up with the inevitable loss of children to all the various powers of darkness and evil). Since both Celestial and Fiendish figures are involved the Ravenloft "rules" are "mixed," but the power of Evil dominates due to Ravenlofts proximity to the demi-plane of dread.
MTF
it gives a creature some power then takes away what it wants most. just to (intice). the emotion that it feeds off of is the feeling of being incomplete.
or else its a guy in iceland named jeff and has nothing better to do on a saturday afternoon.
The Purpose of Ravenloft? The very first module was pretty creative and went somewhere D&D always hinted at but never fully explored. So, originally I'd say Ravenloft was written to explore the possibilities of a more gothic horror setting. The 2nd Edition campaign setting however I saw as just a way to make money. I'm not saying I didn't buy it. I'm just saying it was almost as obvious as Dark Sun was a ploy to get you to buy the Psionics Handbook, which I didn't want or need until I bought the damn Dark Sun boxed set.
(This brings up the intriguing, and disturbing, notion that if the DPs' efforts in Ravenloft are thus exempted from divine interference, IMC, that would imply that the Dark Powers themselves must qualify as mortals, not gods or equivalently-transcendent beings! But what manner of mortals could ever conceivably attain such power, to re-shape the very fabric of the ethereal plane to craft an entire realm or the Mists that surround it?)
They're called........
.........game designers! :DConsider that Ravenloft may actually BE Tharizdun, Dark Powers, Mists and all, and it draws evil beings in to feed on thier evil. Or perhaps, since Thraizduns prison is said to be based on its evil turned in upon itself, it may draw outside evil into itself as well.
Just a theory Ive had.
Ive always thought that Ravenloft was the "Demiplane of Imprisonment" mentioned in the 1E Manual of the Planes. It may be involved with the prison of Tharizdun.
That one is incorrect, I'm afraid. A Planescape accessory (I think it was A Guide to the Ethereal Plane) stated clearly that RL and the Demiplane of Imprisonment were two different things.
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Tharizdun was linked to the Nightmare Lands in a sort of "Elder Evil meets Ravenloft" kind of way.
That one is incorrect, I'm afraid. A Planescape accessory (I think it was A Guide to the Ethereal Plane) stated clearly that RL and the Demiplane of Imprisonment were two different things.
Yepp, that's true.
That one is incorrect, I'm afraid. A Planescape accessory (I think it was A Guide to the Ethereal Plane) stated clearly that RL and the Demiplane of Imprisonment were two different things.
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Tharizdun was linked to the Nightmare Lands in a sort of "Elder Evil meets Ravenloft" kind of way.
Too bad. Way way too bad. Yet another reason for me to hate Planescape.
I've always veiwed Ravenloft as being some sort of detached plane in its own little bubble. The dark powers run the place and due to the nature of the plane other dieties are not able to reliably interact with it. If they try their efforts are contorted, sort of like how your hand becomes disjointed from refraction when you put it into a watery surface. That would explain things like the bloody-faced Morninglord (unless it really was Jander). I don't think Ravenloft has a purpose (apart from the houseing of certain evil people), and I think it's creepier that way. If there's a special purpose behind Ravenloft, than people who don't fit with that purpose should find it easy to get out, or appeal to the Dark Powers to correct the mistake. If Ravenloft simply is, than there is no justification for someone to arrive or leave. "Why am I here" or "What did I do to deserve this" mean nothing. A person can't atone for something they didn't do.
As for the dark powers, I tend to go with Strahd's analogy of the chess board, with the Dark Lords to be all being dragged in for the powers' own amusement. I like the idea of a sort of pact between the Dark Powers and other deities to accept responsibilty for the uber-evils in the others gods' domains, but once in Ravenloft the Dark Powers also have their own ends. I recently came up with a sort of quasi-god figure called Count Lucifel, aka "The unruly child of evil." He's basically an evil spirit that looks like a charismatic and sinister elf in a lavender and black tuxedo. By nature he is evil but he's not out to commit atrocities. Instead, he 'picks' at the evil inclinations of others to see what he can goad them into doing. He is fascinated by truly pure or innocent souls but ultimately has no use for them since he can't exert the same influence he can on those who are prone to evil. Take Count Lucifel and multiply his influence by a few K and you've got the Dark Powers as I tend to see them: non-deity, non-mortal rulers over this demiplane that they populate with select individuals. Of course, other people inevitably wind up there as well. I see the mists as like a hand. Reach into a bowl of smarties and try and grab a red one with your fist. Chances are a few others will come up in the mix.
Ravenloft is attached to the demi-plane of dread
Side note: I thought Ravenloft was the demi-plane of dread.
Too bad. Way way too bad. Yet another reason for me to hate Planescape.
Actually, the distinction was argued for by a fan helping out on the book who was a fan of both Ravenloft and Planescape, and wanted the two Demiplanes kept distinct because he didn't want to see the Dark Powers expressely defined as Tharizdun.
The fan? John W. Mangrum, later Ravenloft freelancer and 'shadow developer'. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Ravenloft: An endless, vast, largly unexplored plane brought into being by tragedy and sorrow, bound by the acts of evil and a profound sense of loss. I see entire worlds within it, some taken from other planes and material worlds, some created by the powers themselves. A prison made by the dark powers to harness the misery and strife they sew for it empowers them.
Yeah, some Lovecraftian gods would do well as the "founders" but the best part about these interpretations is that they are in the eye of the beholder.
Actually, the distinction was argued for by a fan helping out on the book who was a fan of both Ravenloft and Planescape, and wanted the two Demiplanes kept distinct because he didn't want to see the Dark Powers expressely defined as Tharizdun.
The fan? John W. Mangrum, later Ravenloft freelancer and 'shadow developer'. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
But, in the beginning, the original concept strongly hinted into Tharizdun being the dark ruler of Ravenloft? - Interesting...
On a more constructive note however, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Dark Powers are not actually evil, but are rather the wardens of a prison designed to punish darklords. What about the native inhabitants of the domains that suffer so much under the oppressive thumb of darklords? Those inhabitants aren't actually real, rather they are manifestations of darklord's vision of what his domain should be like, the inhabitants are manipulated by the Dark Powers to try and coax out some flicker of conscience out of darklords (Tatiana and Strahd, Azalin and Irik's ghost, and so on). Other beings can enter through the Mists and they - unlike the inhabitants - are quite real (or are they...? What if the DM is just messing with ya?) and thus can affect the world of Ravenloft in ways not always foreseen or permitted by the Dark Powers.
The Domains themselves are not created by Dark Powers themselves. Rather they are the perfect prisons created by the desires, fears and memories of the dark lords. As long as the dark lord continues to revel in his/her evil, the prison will be maintained.
P.S. If you need to come up with stats for Dark Powers, my theory is that it would be an advanced HD Solar with Divine Rank 0, 20 levels of cleric, 14 levels of monk, who can nonetheless wear armor, and all his unarmed attacks count as holy, bane against undead, humanoids and evil outsiders, and vorpal; he's named Ch'uk Norr'hys. ;)
I personally like the idea presented the last module of the "Vecna" series. The DP are ancient god-entities that predated the current assortments and are in the same class of deity as Asmodeus, The Lady of Pain, and Vecna's Serpent. This class of deities are considered greater deities but they don't need the worship of mortals to sustain their existence.
I have always considered "The Serpent" to be an alias of Asmodeus/Ahriman.
Ahriman (Asmodeus' true identity, according to "The Guide to Hell") feeds off of extreme degrees of doubt, dispair, and disbelief. He consumes the souls/life forces of those who truly believe in nothing to heal wounds he suffered in his battle with Jazirian, and his subsequent fall into the nine hells, not long after the creation of the multiverse.
The Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) is too perfect a tool in my opinion (far better than the Athar) for Ahriman not to have a significant hand in it. Think of how rare faith is in the demiplane, in compairison to other areas. Think of the amount of dispair it produces.
The serpent is the other edge of this tool. Vecna was tempted by The Serpent, educated by The Serpent, then unwittingly imprisioned by The Serpent, if my theory is accurate. Vecna's imprisonment, by powers beyond even his comprehension, must have caused Vecna to doubt himself. Now The Serpent gives him a wayout, a path to accension, that proves to be accurate. If Vecna has faith in anything, it is faith in The Serpent. When the grand betrayal comes, Vecna's faith would be destroyed, his world turned upside down, and doubt could very well unmake him. If so, Ahriman could feed on the power of a God.
A few successful schemes like this and Ahriman would be healed, have the strength to free himself from the pit...and thus the war to determine the future of the multiverse would begin.
That's my theory.