so basically:
are there druids?
are there druid circles?
Im assuming the 3 gods of nature chizlev, zabowum(sp?), Habbakook (sp?) are there any others that would be considered?
have there been any druids of note?
race restrictions?
thanks!
are there druids?
Yes.
are there druid circles?
Yes, but they aren't formal. It's more like a loosely-knit group of likeminded faithful. I suppose some of them might get a little more into it, but many druids are actually loners.
Im assuming the 3 gods of nature chizlev, zabowum(sp?), Habbakook (sp?) are there any others that would be considered?
Any god may have a druid if you can justify it as something that extends into the natural world. You will still need to be partially neutral and remain within one step of your deity's alignment. Druids of Mishakal can be neutral or neutral good, for instance, and they would focus on the lifegiving power of nature. Most druids, however, are followers of Chislev, with a lesser number of followers of Habbakuk and of Zeboim.
have there been any druids of note?
The most prominent was Waylorn Wyvernsbane, a druid of the Age of Might who allied with the Silvanesti against their wicked former queen, Sylvyana. Feril Dawnsprinter, a hero of the Age of Mortals, was a Kagonesti mystic, not a druid, but she would be a great model for how a Kagonesti druid of Habbakuk would act.
race restrictions?
None.
Cheers,
Cam
So, you can almost think about druids on Ansalon as druids on Earth. They were once more prevelant, but chances of meeting one these days are pretty slim. And there aren't really huge followings anymore and it's not a large practice, but the druids that do exist may be following ancient druidic teachings (as they understand them) that have been passed down through history, or some obscure reference near their home village, or something along those lines.
As for the gods, yes only the good god Habbakuk, the neutral god Chislev (the most popular for druids), and the evil goddess Zeboim are available for druids. On top of that, in Dragonlance, you must choose a patron god/goddess in order to receive clerical spells. Which means, the druid class as a spellcaster is only availavle during times in which the gods are available and granting spells (which makes most of the 4th Age, the Age of Despair, and the first portion of the 5th Age, the Age of Mortals, off limits).
One way around this is to treat the druid as a mystic (making it available during the 5th Age at least, but not the early 4th Age). The class would require a little tweaking (I would change the spells per day and spells known advancement to match the mystic's tables) but it could be done. It wouldn't really be a druid anymore...not truly...as a druid worships a deity of nature, but it'd be a sort of pseudo-druid who actually worships nature itself...or what the perceive to be nature. Just a thought.
As for famous druids, the only one I can really think of is Waylorn Wyvernsbane (a character from the original modules). He believed he was a reincarnated Huma Dragonsbane (or that he really was Huma, I don't remember exactly). Anyway, it was said that he was a druid, but not much more information is given about him or his druidic sect (if he had one).
Any god may have a druid if you can justify it as something that extends into the natural world.
Well, okay then...I guess just treat what I said about druids and gods as my opinion, not DL fact.
Feril Dawnsprinter, a hero of the Age of Mortals, was a Kagonesti mystic, not a druid, but she would be a great model for how a Kagonesti druid of Habbakuk would act.
Especailly after the return of the gods. She started worshiping Habbakuk and essentially started acting like a druid...but she received her magic from mysticism (it was an interesting mix, and I liked it...I wonder what Habbakuk thought? Why would he care? Gets all the worship, but doesn't actually have to grant prayers in return :D)
Thanks for the input cam and brimstone, I need to flesh out my character concept abit but Ive got a good start. The DM is apparently running the setting post war of the lance, so is there anything I should know about that period that would have a drastic effect for a druid? no large forest fires or the like ?
Not particularly. I mean, it is a post-war landscape, and the red dragons certainly had a field day with a lot of the land. But there isn't some comletely overwhelming geological change after the War of the Lance (at least not on the scale as after the Cataclysm or after the Dragon Overlords showed up).
On the up side, the gods will be there, so you have that.
Especailly after the return of the gods. She started worshiping Habbakuk and essentially started acting like a druid...but she received her magic from mysticism...
Here's what Jean Rabe said about that.
I consider Feril both a mystic and a druid. Revering Habbakuk sorta would come naturally to her. . . especially with the gods back.
I made her quite a bit more powerful than in the 5th age trilogy. Some years had passed, magic had returned, and so I figured she would get stronger.
I love druids in the D&D game (and have one in the Living Greyhawk campaign). So I certainly enjoyed letting Feril play around with druidic abilities. I think she's one of the better female characters I've come up with.
One could argue that, though the Disks had yet to be rediscovered, the gods were already around so if a druid - who really worships Nature more than one god in particular - was "faithful" he could receive spells.
So, I was rather surprised when I saw how the (3.5) DL rules dealt harshly with that (denying them any power till the "gods' return").
I can understand doing so during the time the Queen of Darkness stole the world but IMHO druids should have access to their full powers in-between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance. There are so few of them anyway that it wouldn't unbalance things too much.
Sort I figured that even though mysticism actually had not been "discovered" until Goldmoon that you had Druids who were using mysticism and that they did'nt really care where it came from because they figured it came from nature.
The problem with that is, though, that the energies that make up mysticism and sorcery come from the creation energies themselves. The creation energies taken from chaos and made to take form and shape. But, this magic is really locked up in the world, so there are only two ways to tap into it.
One is to be a child of the world already (dragons are the major ones but the protectors of nature that the High God created, the nymphs, dryads, satyrs, centaurs, other fey, bakali, etc.) they all have a connection to Krynn itself, physically and are part of that creation magic, so they can use it. The second part of it is that it takes Chaos himself (ie, the Graygem) to kind of unbind those creation energies from the form they've created...kind of shake the energy loose, so to speak (or maybe a better way to think of it is the additional chaos energies are are about can be used to help tap into the locked up creation magic). So, for the creatures that could be called the children of the stars (humans, elves, ogres, and their many, many iterations) the only way they can use creation magic is during the times when that magic has been "loosened up" and is free to tap into. This would be during the 2nd Age when the the Graygem is floating about causing trouble and during the 5th Age after the chaos energies were permanently released from the Graygem.
I know this is a new 3e idea, but I think it fits very well with the original idea from SAGA about the chaotic energies of mysticism and sorcery. Remember that if you wanted to start using more powerful magics, as soon as you started drawing trump cards, you essentially had a 1-in-10 chance of a spell mishap. It wasn't every really considered the most stable of magics..."chaotic" if you will. :D
I guess my point is, I'm a big fan of the explinaion of mysticism and sorcery created for the latest incarnation of Dragonlance gaming, which would mean they aren't available during the 3rd or 4th Ages (or the later part of the 2nd Age even).
I guess my point is, I'm a big fan of the explinaion of mysticism and sorcery created for the latest incarnation of Dragonlance gaming, which would mean they aren't available during the 3rd or 4th Ages (or the later part of the 2nd Age even).
I'm a big fan of it too. It helps to maintain continuity with prior ages. To say that ambient magic was around all these years would have required a bit of a re-write of history.
Just an interesting thought - if ambient magic is tied to the world, and so is Chislev, then can she utilize ambient magic? I'd say that all gods can anyway, just without the "Chaos taint."
Just an interesting thought - if ambient magic is tied to the world, and so is Chislev, then can she utilize ambient magic? I'd say that all gods can anyway, just without the "Chaos taint."
Sure. In fact, any god can create an aspect for itself, such as an elven sorcerer or dwarf mystic, that uses ambient magic. It's not really the same as a mortal sorcerer or mystic, but nobody would really know the difference.
Cheers,
Cam
Sure. In fact, any god can create an aspect for itself, such as an elven sorcerer or dwarf mystic, that uses ambient magic. It's not really the same as a mortal sorcerer or mystic, but nobody would really know the difference.
But, I think he's talking about during the "down times" for ambient magic. (I think I was using "creation" magic wrong earlier...I'll fix that) So, could the gods create a sorcerer aspect during the 4th Age that could actually wield magic? I'd think "no" because once the god creates an aspect, those aspects are essentially "mortal" and part of Krynn and have to follow Krynn's rules, more or less.
Can the acutal god themselves in their true form use ambient magic? Well...their magic is probably not ambient or focused but something entirely different, yes/no?
But, just to clarify (to make sure I'm saying this right):
Ambient Creation magic = Wild Sorcery
Ambient Divine magic = Mysticism
Focused Creation magic = High Sorcery
Focused Divine magic = Clerical magic
Those are the right terms aren't they? (is there a better term than "clerical magic"?)
But, I think he's talking about during the "down times" for ambient magic. (I think I was using "creation" magic wrong earlier...I'll fix that) So, could the gods create a sorcerer aspect during the 4th Age that could actually wield magic? I'd think "no" because once the god creates an aspect, those aspects are essentially "mortal" and part of Krynn and have to follow Krynn's rules, more or less.
Nope. They can have bards and sorcerers and mystics any time they like. The "laws" of magic on Krynn apply to true mortals with souls, which aspects aren't. Aspects allow the gods to interact with mortals, and give them some small degree of mortal experience, but they're still gods behind the curtain.
Ambient Creation magic = Wild Sorcery
Ambient Divine magic = Mysticism
Focused Creation magic = High Sorcery
Focused Divine magic = Clerical magic
Those are the right terms aren't they? (is there a better term than "clerical magic"?)
All magic ultimately stems from the creation of the world, and from the souls that live within it. You can break it down into convenient groups like the four above, but we're always seeing things that "break" these rules. For instance, dragons use wild sorcery... or do they? Many of the evil ones and all of the good ones can also cast spells from the cleric list. Isn't this mysticism? What about hybrid mages? Are they drawing from two sources, or is the way they cast spells just cosmic semantics?
The best way to see all of this is that magic is, at the very core of it all, an untyped, unfiltered, unrefined force that exists in everything. The gods can deliver it to mortals as the miracles of clerics, the moons allow wizards to cast spells using rituals and formulas that channel this magic via the moons to their fingertips, sorcerers pull the magic left over from creation thanks to the presence of Chaos acting as a filter, and so forth.
The more you categorize and analyze, the more you will find things that sneak around the walls. It is perhaps best to worry more about those who use magic, and how they seem to use it, than explain all of it in a nice neat package.
Cheers,
Cam
Besides where has the greygem been all these years anyway? Was it still floating around the world? Was it trapped on some island in a castle? What?
You can break it down into convenient groups like the four above, but we're always seeing things that "break" these rules. For instance, dragons use wild sorcery... or do they? Many of the evil ones and all of the good ones can also cast spells from the cleric list. Isn't this mysticism? What about hybrid mages? Are they drawing from two sources, or is the way they cast spells just cosmic semantics?
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that individuals could only cast from one specific type of magic. (although it is my understanding that you can't mix focused spell casting with ambient spell casting in Dragonlance 3e).
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that individuals could only cast from one specific type of magic. (although it is my understanding that you can't mix focused spell casting with ambient spell casting in Dragonlance 3e).
Correct, because you're essentially mixing gods, even though Chaos isn't actively giving you any of his power.
Cheers,
Cam
Correct, because you're essentially mixing gods, even though Chaos isn't actively giving you any of his power.
Hmm...I hadn't really thought of it like that. But, if that's the case, then doesn't that essentially proclude anyone from becoming a cleric/mage? Not that I think that sort of thing really fits in Dragonlance, but I would have a hard time convincing a PC of that if that's what they wanted to do, I think.
Hmm...I hadn't really thought of it like that. But, if that's the case, then doesn't that essentially proclude anyone from becoming a cleric/mage? Not that I think that sort of thing really fits in Dragonlance, but I would have a hard time convincing a PC of that if that's what they wanted to do, I think.
You can be a cleric/mage, but you would be a renegade. Once you take the Test of High Sorcery, you’ve made a pact with a god of magic, which is when the “no more than one god” rule kicks in.
Cheers,
Cam
Also note that you can become a cleric or wizard if you're a sorcerer or mystic as part of your race, which is not something you can do if you're a sorcerer as a class. Dragon clerics and dragon druids, for example, would be fine. Rare as hen's teeth, of course.
You lost me on this one. What exactly is allowed and what isn't?
Races with racial casting can generally improve on their casting by taking class levels in the associated casting class. For example, look at a bozak/aurak sorcerer. The sorcerer levels stack with the draconian's racial hit dice for the purpose of determining the sorcerous ability of the creature.
Of course, our draconian here could decide to go wizard instead, and begin a new casting progression in addition to your racial casting.
As for mixing casting classes for non-casting races (such as humans, for example), the only thing I don't see as very viable is combining spontaneous casting with prepared casting (or, more appropriately, combining two different casting philosophies within the same scope, like taking two arcane philosophies or two divine philosophies.)
Sorcerer/Wizards and Mystic/Clerics are clearly in a conflict of interest. While wizards are strongly encouraged to join the Orders of High Sorcery, the fact that renegades of all sorts exist and cast spells quite well proves that devotion to the gods of magic is not mandatory for wizard spellcasting, unlike cleric spellcasting. Thus, I can conceive the idea of a wizard/cleric of any god (save the gods of magic, who grant no clerical ability). A working example could be a cleric of Takhisis who delved into arcane studies to be inducted into the Knights of the Thorn (unlikely, but possible). Of course, such an "unfocused" approach to the magic granted by the gods of magic will cause the Orders of High Sorcery to view the character as a renegade (but this is the case with all Thorn Knights anyway). Another viable wizard/cleric concept could be a priest of Sirrion wishing to manipulate all forms of fire magic (let's face it, arcane casters get the better end of the deal here).
I see no problem for a sorcerer/mystic concept. I mean, you're already channeling a form of ambient magic. Adding another is merely allowing yourself to explore what could be seen as the only positive consequence of the Summer of Chaos.
Sorcerer/clerics are viable too. Harnessing ambient arcane magic to further the goals of your god without hinting at the mere possibility of a divided allegiance to a god of magic seems viable to me. In fact, your choice of sorcerer spells will further this idea.
Wizard/mystics are also viable, IMHO. The power of the heart is present in all creatures, after all.
In the end, it all comes down to the character's philosophy. Dual casters are usually not encouraged because most of the established practitioners of one form of magic or another ask for single-minded devotion to that practice from their apprentices. The Test of High Sorcery is paramount to this idea, as the risk of death is enough to weed out those who would not be willing to put everything on the line for the sake of the magic.
Unfortunately, the gods have not laid out rules that prevent their faithful from drawing from ambient magic. In a way, it's more favorable for the gods to remain tolerant of the practitioners of ambient magic, lest all magic-users be motivated to adopt a form of magic that comes more naturally and without dependence on a god. The gods have already been barely present in the last 400-450 years (although the gods of darkness to a lesser extent), and many people have become resentful of this "abandonment". Should the gods promote intolerance towards this new form of magic, they'd end up gathering less and less followers.
Expanding one's innate ambient spellcasting further by adding sorcerer levels usually represents an extension of this innate spellcasting access, and not the use of Chaos. However, a creature with no innate spellcasting in mysticism, for example, could not combine mystic levels with cleric or wizard levels, for instance, since Chaos would be the means by which they accessed their mysticism.
Cheers,
Cam
Because Chaos is the means by which most mortal sorcerers and mystics are able to cast spells using ambient magic, this presents the conflict between ambient casters and focused casters. However, dragons and fey, for example, have innate ambient casting that does not rely on Chaos, so there is no conflict.
Expanding one's innate ambient spellcasting further by adding sorcerer levels usually represents an extension of this innate spellcasting access, and not the use of Chaos. However, a creature with no innate spellcasting in mysticism, for example, could not combine mystic levels with cleric or wizard levels, for instance, since Chaos would be the means by which they accessed their mysticism.
Cheers,
Cam
So basically, Wiz/Clr and Sor/Mys are valid, but Wiz/Mys and Sor/Clr are not?
So basically, Wiz/Clr and Sor/Mys are valid, but Wiz/Mys and Sor/Clr are not?
Correct.
Group A and Group F represent ambient spellcasters and focused spellcasters:
A: assassins, bards, mystics, sorcerers
F: blackguards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, wizards
A character may have any combination of Group A classes.
A character may have any combination of Group F classes if they have only one patron deity from whom they gain spellcasting.
No multiclassing is permitted between Group A and Group F.
Cheers,
Cam
Multiclassing in Dragonlance
For example, look at the Favored Soul class from the MiniHB/Complete Divine. It is clearly a deity-oriented class, yet it's a spontaneous caster, making it more similar to a mystic than a cleric on this aspect. Or the Wu Jen from Complete Arcane. It prepares and casts spells just like a wizard does, but its magic is more primal and associated with the world around it, making its spellcasting more compatible with the flavor of ambient spellcasters. Should we classify these new classes as spontaneous -> ambient and prepared -> arcane or should we go according to the flavor of the class?
I know Holy Orders of the Stars worked to re-introduce the paladin into Dragonlance, but I can't help but wonder at the new classes accessible. Of course, it's obvious that non-casting classes are easy to introduce into the setting. Swashbucklers, scouts, and samurai come to mind (one of my players has a minotaur samurai character; whose family's tradition of honoring the teachings of the Emperor/Kiri-Jolith has caused his lord—who swears by Sargas, and Sargas alone—to send him on what could be a suicide mission out of bigotry). What of the casters?
I'm curious as to how the newer casting classes and PrCs would fall under the Dragonlance perspective.
I have a couple of articles that might help with that too.
Expanded Base Classes in Dragonlance
Dungeon Master Guide Prestige Classes in Dragonlance
Hope that helps.
For example, look at the Favored Soul class from the MiniHB/Complete Divine...
We had a favored soul of Habakuk in our campaign for a while. Our GM called it focused magic, in spite of it being spontaneously cast. Seemed to work out well enough.
as far as i can remember, after the fiery mountain and such, the gods didn't really leave Krynn...the people left the gods...so i can see it possible that a few remote people may have continued to worship the gods and recieve benefits from it...as for druids, in Dragons of Autumn, Tanis's "brother" Gilthanas says he was saved by druids after a failed raid on Pax Tharkas...so they are around in the War of the Lance era...
Those weren't spellcasting druids. They were herbalists and so forth who kept some of the folklore of the druids alive but did not cast spells or shapeshift.
Cheers,
Cam
Those weren't spellcasting druids. They were herbalists and so forth who kept some of the folklore of the druids alive but did not cast spells or shapeshift.
It might not be a huge stretch to speculate that a few might have been sylvan mages.
One could argue that, though the Disks had yet to be rediscovered, the gods were already around so if a druid - who really worships Nature more than one god in particular - was "faithful" he could receive spells.
So, I was rather surprised when I saw how the (3.5) DL rules dealt harshly with that (denying them any power till the "gods' return").
I can understand doing so during the time the Queen of Darkness stole the world but IMHO druids should have access to their full powers in-between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance. There are so few of them anyway that it wouldn't unbalance things too much.
As a GM I used a similar logic to allow druids in my campaign:
1-Druids are so rare that giving them full powers will not unblance the game, or significantly impact the game world.
2-All druids revere nature as a living force, and not as a god (since all gods disapered 348 years ago). Little do they know that they DO recieve their powers from the gods (Habbakuk, Chislev, and Zeboim as appropiate) due to their faithful worship of nature, as they gods consider it the same thing as if they where worshiping them directly by name.
3-Druids always have a high price for thier help/assistance. (This my PCs found out the hard way).
Haven't had a problem yet.
George
Are there many kender druids?
A kender druid of Habbakuk was one of the pregenerated characters for the Dragonlance demo last year at GenCon Indy.
They're probably not as common among kender as they are among humans, but there'd be a few.
Cheers,
Cam