"BARIMOOR THE POLITICIAN" (p.90)
Uncle Silk says "I knew it in my soul. Barimoor is the man behind that fiendish Kin sect that dogs my fate".
Isn't it a bit weird that Barimoor preserves annonymity and yet a merchant in Alfheim Town knows all about him and his supposed dealings with the Kin??
"TWO FOR THE PRICE OF ONE" (p.92)
...now he [Hashburminal] is turning the bodies of slain elves into zombies. Many of their spirits are already spectres under the control of his followers.
Talk about efficiency when creating undead minions!
"BAD MAGIC POINTS OUTSIDE ALFHEIM" (p.22-23)
Three magic points...are specifically noted by the elves as areas of malignant, rather than benign magic. This is part of the dark side of the elven forest magic (p.22).
Evil magic areas similar to Thornbush and Dragontree are also found in the Broken Lands and other monster-ridden places (p. 23).
If the Bad Magic Points are corrupted elven magic, why on Mystara would there be similar places outside Alfheim, where the magic that created the Canolbarth Forest is not in effect??
SHADOWELVES "FEEDING" BAD MAGIC POINTS? (p. 95-96)
It [Thornbush] is in fact a "worm-hole", providing transportation through the Sphere of Entropy to the Broken Lands... they get to the other side, the lowest levels of the Broken Lands... (p.95)
There are also some other "gates" nearby, obviously meant to bring monsters through to send through the wormhole to Alfheim... [the party can] dodge through one of the other gates (which takes it to some monster-filled part of the Broken Lands)... (p. 96).
This is what baffles me the most. When the Alfheim magic went bad and the Bad Magic Points evolved, how did they become connected to the Shadow Elf part of the Broken Lands? And why on Mystara would the Shadow Elves have something as dangerous as a wormhole to the Sphere of Entropy right in their own realm? Presumeably, it is as dangerous to their lives as the other end at Thornbush is to the Alfheim elves?
Well, these are just some things to think about. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
:-) Jesper
I was flipping through the Alfheim gaz when I came across the following weird details. Do these things strike anyone else as a bit weird?
It's always nice to revisit the original works, don't you think? :D
"BARIMOOR THE POLITICIAN" (p.90)
That is a bit strange. Perhaps his attempts to remain anonymous have not been as successful as he might like to believe?
One possibility is that the elves retain memories of him at an earlier point in his career, when perhaps he was a little less skilled than he is now - but no less devious. This could be common knowledge among expatriate Ylari in Alfheim.
But I'm clutching at straws. :embarrass
"TWO FOR THE PRICE OF ONE" (p.92)
Hehehe... Maybe I've been playing too much Kingdom Hearts lately, but just two different existences coming from the original creature isn't seeming such a big deal. ;)
"BAD MAGIC POINTS OUTSIDE ALFHEIM" (p.22-23)
I always interpreted this as meaning other Bad Magic Points that are unrelated to the elven magic. After all it only says "similar to", which I believe is referring to the nature of the spot, rather than the cause of its existence.
In other words, the other Bad Magic Points are similar phenomena, but they must have their own reasons for being. In the Broken Lands, there are probably quite a lot of different possible sources of evil magic, don't you think? The most obvious is some sort of remnant from the second Blackmoor explosion in 1700 BC.
SHADOWELVES "FEEDING" BAD MAGIC POINTS? (p. 95-96)
Always remember when reading GAZ5 that the information pertaining to Shadow Elves is biased, undeveloped, often simplified, and sometimes just plain contradicted by the later info in GAZ13.
Your first question is partially answered by my response about the Broken Lands and Bad Magic Points above. Another simple reason could be that they were not originally connected, but someone did the work of connecting them, perhaps using the Bad Magic as a source of power.
Since we now know that the Shadow Elves are far, far deeper than even the deepest Broken Lands caverns, I would say simply that the gates do not connect to the Shadow Elves' territory at all, but just to the Broken Lands. We already know that the Shadow Elves have agents there, and of course they are always trying to stir up trouble for the Alfheimers, so it doesn't seem too hard to believe.
As to the "wormhole to the Sphere of Entropy", all such references are to be glossed over entirely, as far as I'm concerned, because the Sphere of Entropy is not and was never a place. It was always surprising how many classic products made this mistake.
It's easy to reinterpret it as meaning to an Entropy-dominated outer plane, though - perhaps even Pyts itself.
Very interesting points, anyway. Thank you for sharing them, Jesper. I wish I had my copy of GAZ5 here to read - I have the PDF, but I find that the PDFs are more useful for quick reference than for reading through; I can't bring myself to read more than a page or two at a time on the computer screen.
Since we now know that the Shadow Elves are far, far deeper than even the deepest Broken Lands caverns,
Not that far, depending on which source you believe. Aaron Allston (in PWA1010) placed the City of the Stars within the World Crust, halfway between the surface and the Hollow World, which put it very far below ground indeed.
This was in direct contradiction of the Gazetteer, however, which had this to say about things:
Way of Fountains: Along this roadway stand 14 fountains, drawing upon the same water table drained from Troll Lake, the bottom of which is some 1,300 feet above the ceiling of the cavern.
Now, Trollhattan (on Gaz10's map) is located 1,300 feet below ground (presumably, below sea level), and if the City of Stars is some 1,300 feet below that, it's only 2,600 feet below ground. Even if you grant that Troll Lake might be a couple of hundred feet deep, that still places the City of Stars less than a mile below ground- a stark contrast to Allston's midway in the earth claim (and, I believe, the middle of Mystara claim was also discounted by the later PWAs to boot).
Still deep, but not nearly as deep.
Of course, the thing that made people really think it was in the middle of the world shield was the City of the Stars cavern's strange gravity. Which is still confusing, since we have no map of the ceiling of the cavern... ;)
I really want to read GAZ13 again - it's one of my favourite Gazetteers. Thankfully I will be able to very soon, because I managed to snag a copy from Ebay. (It's popular though so it didn't come cheap. >_<)
I was flipping through the Alfheim gaz when I came across the following weird details. Do these things strike anyone else as a bit weird?
"BARIMOOR THE POLITICIAN" (p.90)
Uncle Silk says "I knew it in my soul. Barimoor is the man behind that fiendish Kin sect that dogs my fate".
Isn't it a bit weird that Barimoor preserves annonymity and yet a merchant in Alfheim Town knows all about him and his supposed dealings with the Kin??
I ran this adventure, and I changed that bit. The merchant knew of some organization of mages which seemed to support the Kin, but he doesn't know much else. I chalk this up to Steve Perrin being a little careless about the work in GAZ2.
"TWO FOR THE PRICE OF ONE" (p.92)
...now he [Hashburminal] is turning the bodies of slain elves into zombies. Many of their spirits are already spectres under the control of his followers.
Talk about efficiency when creating undead minions!
I chalk this up to Nithian wizardry.
"BAD MAGIC POINTS OUTSIDE ALFHEIM" (p.22-23)
Three magic points...are specifically noted by the elves as areas of malignant, rather than benign magic. This is part of the dark side of the elven forest magic (p.22).
Evil magic areas similar to Thornbush and Dragontree are also found in the Broken Lands and other monster-ridden places (p. 23).
If the Bad Magic Points are corrupted elven magic, why on Mystara would there be similar places outside Alfheim, where the magic that created the Canolbarth Forest is not in effect??
Similar areas don't have to mean corrupted elven magic, presumably there could be other corruptions causes, like the Radiance, or that device which created the Broken Lands.
SHADOWELVES "FEEDING" BAD MAGIC POINTS? (p. 95-96)
It [Thornbush] is in fact a "worm-hole", providing transportation through the Sphere of Entropy to the Broken Lands... they get to the other side, the lowest levels of the Broken Lands... (p.95)
There are also some other "gates" nearby, obviously meant to bring monsters through to send through the wormhole to Alfheim... [the party can] dodge through one of the other gates (which takes it to some monster-filled part of the Broken Lands)... (p. 96).
This is what baffles me the most. When the Alfheim magic went bad and the Bad Magic Points evolved, how did they become connected to the Shadow Elf part of the Broken Lands? And why on Mystara would the Shadow Elves have something as dangerous as a wormhole to the Sphere of Entropy right in their own realm? Presumeably, it is as dangerous to their lives as the other end at Thornbush is to the Alfheim elves?
Well, these are just some things to think about. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
:-) Jesper
Ok, you got me on the last one. That was back when the Shadowelves were pretty much the bad guys though.
Of course, the thing that made people really think it was in the middle of the world shield was the City of the Stars cavern's strange gravity. Which is still confusing, since we have no map of the ceiling of the cavern... ;)
I think that was Allston's idea- it was a convenient (if unnecessary) way to explain the (un?)natural phenomenon in the cavern. It just made it suddenly strange that the shadow elves would have any interest (or knowledge) if the surface world so far above them.
Of course, Gaz13 made a similar logical lapse with the inclusion of Azcan invaders (another major trek, especially without being able to travel with magic from the Hollow World side). HWR1 kind of explained that incongruity away by adding the history of Atruatzin and his followers (though that also muddled things a bit).
I really want to read GAZ13 again - it's one of my favourite Gazetteers. Thankfully I will be able to very soon, because I managed to snag a copy from Ebay. (It's popular though so it didn't come cheap. >_<)
You can always read it online. It is on the Vaults here, at the bottom (Gaz13 was made downloadable by TSR shortly before it sold off to WotC- it was part of TSR attempting to cater more to the online fan community- like the Logo contest.)
"BAD MAGIC POINTS OUTSIDE ALFHEIM" (p.22-23)
Three magic points...are specifically noted by the elves as areas of malignant, rather than benign magic. This is part of the dark side of the elven forest magic (p.22).
Evil magic areas similar to Thornbush and Dragontree are also found in the Broken Lands and other monster-ridden places (p. 23).
If the Bad Magic Points are corrupted elven magic, why on Mystara would there be similar places outside Alfheim, where the magic that created the Canolbarth Forest is not in effect??
Here's my theory--the MAIN Elven magics are in the Canolbarth, but some of the magics reach out into other places, drawing in the necessary moisture. In some cases, those powers get tainted and produce bad magic points.
I think that was Allston's idea- it was a convenient (if unnecessary) way to explain the (un?)natural phenomenon in the cavern. It just made it suddenly strange that the shadow elves would have any interest (or knowledge) if the surface world so far above them.
He probably couldn't resist the explanation of having it in the World Shield. It is a pretty nice way of explaining the cavern, but I also agree with you that 600 miles is a long way... And it's not as if you can just travel straight up or down, either, which would make travel to the surface a major excursion, taking many months.
This also has a bearing on Shadow Elf-Schattenalfen relations, of course.
Of course, Gaz13 made a similar logical lapse with the inclusion of Azcan invaders (another major trek, especially without being able to travel with magic from the Hollow World side). HWR1 kind of explained that incongruity away by adding the history of Atruatzin and his followers (though that also muddled things a bit).
That part of the timeline did get pretty confusing, didn't it? Maybe it's because it was added to by so many separate authors/books.
You can always read it online. It is on the Vaults here, at the bottom (Gaz13 was made downloadable by TSR shortly before it sold off to WotC- it was part of TSR attempting to cater more to the online fan community- like the Logo contest.)
Yep, I have that, and I think I have the PDF too, but (as some of us here keep on saying lately) reading long tracts on the computer screen just isn't the same. My eyes start to glaze over and I usually stop after a page or two at most.
Besides, I had an ulterior motive in buying a second copy of GAZ13, other than the fact that my first copy is thousands of miles away: my original GAZ13 map is getting quite fragile from being looked at so often, and I need to get a replacement to keep in perfect condition. ;) :P
The weirdness continues however, as today I found this:
"THE IMMORTAL CONSPIRACY"
When the Immortals destroyed Blackmoor and the planet shiftet its axis... (p. 6)
WHAT??
I thought the Immortals destroyed Nithia and had a hand in the destructionn of Taymora but that the Blackmoorians anihilated themselves by meddling with sort-of-nuclear power?Am I missing something?
:-) Jesper
"THE IMMORTAL CONSPIRACY"
I would have to say this one was just the authors confusing their Mystaran history. ;) Especially regarding Blackmoor, a lot of the Gazetteer authors seem to have been a bit confused, perhaps due to the vague nature of Blackmoor history at that point in time.
I would have to say this one was just the authors confusing their Mystaran history. ;) Especially regarding Blackmoor, a lot of the Gazetteer authors seem to have been a bit confused, perhaps due to the vague nature of Blackmoor history at that point in time.
Or perhaps this is what the Elves believe? Feeling superior to humans, they might find it hard to believe that human inventions could cause such destruction?
Just an idea.
Håvard
Or perhaps this is what the Elves believe? Feeling superior to humans, they might find it hard to believe that human inventions could cause such destruction?
Nope. This is from the "What-really-happened-section" of the gaz.
:-) Jesper
Nope. This is from the "What-really-happened-section" of the gaz.
I know. But I love to try to make sense of all of these little contradictions that can be found in various Mystara supplements rather than throwing them away as the obvious errors or revisions that they are. Making them into perspectives on matters is one way of doing it.
Håvard