[ds3-r6 feedback] Class: Bards - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

[ds3-r6 feedback] Class: Bards

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
flip
Apr 19, 2006 15:07:32 This is a feedback thread I'm going to be running. The results of these threads are not garunteed to go into R7, but would definately make it into R8.

Ground rule: Please don't start the threads yourself. I've got elevated privledges that let me actually manage the threads that I start, but not arbitrary threads. Also, I'd just like to keep the pacing under control.

Ground rule: This is for feedback and observations from acutal playing, be that PC or NPC/enemy combatant. Either way, this is not the place for armchair theorizing. I want to see what a year's worth of experience has laid out.

Ground rule: Keep the thread on topic. If you must stray, start a new thread.

So. Bards. The class was compeltely written from the ground up, so. Who has had experience in playing with a Bard character, or experience in DMing a group with a Bard character. Any abilities seem overpowering? Any abilities seem like they're completely underpowered? Any abilities just seem like they show up at the wrong level, but are otherwise okay?

Any thoughts on the Trade Secrets? Good mechanic bad implementation, more secrets needed, indifferent? Too powerful, too uneven, or just right?

Please also take into account the style of campaign you're in ... I would expect a Bard to be a much more effective character in a city-based "political" campaign than I would expect him to be in a dungeon-crawl or a wilderness survival adventure.
#2
flip
Apr 19, 2006 15:08:20 (saved)
#3
nytcrawlr
Apr 19, 2006 16:42:05 Well, the last time I ran, several players brought up the fact that they thought the Bard needed a few more Trade Secrets, but no one played one (and that may have been why, who knows). So take that with some salt and a slug I guess.
#4
bengeldorn
Apr 19, 2006 19:04:46 I agree, bards need more trade secrets. In addition there should be class feature that says that a bard can craft alchemical items. I have a bard in my group, who uses more craft (alchemy) for his class than using poisons, and we didn't notice for more than half a year that a bard was able to produce those items without having a spellcasting class. I've tried to create mechanics and special items that would have been able to be produced without a spellcasting class and had allways in mind, that those shouldn't be as powerfull as the ones with magic. This time wasted I spend therefore was wasted until I accidentelly saw that in the skill descrioption it is noted that a bard could make normal alchemical items without being a spellcaster.
Otherwise this class is really fun and the guy who plays the bard realy enjoys it.
#5
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 19, 2006 19:25:17 I've got a Bard in my game, though he's multiclassed and more Telepath then bard...

He does really well in the city and still manages to hold his own in the wilderness, though that's more from the psionics end of things.

Personally I find that Bards are very weak combatants, and I've had to multiclass my NPC bard's to make them effective in any sort of combat situation even assassination. It would be nice to see some adjustments on the Trade Secrets (which I love BTW):

I would like the see Sudden Strike: +1d6 added to the list. Bard's are supposed to be effective Assassins, but only having poison as an effective killing tool is pretty limiting. Adding Sudden Strike to the list would allow them to be more effective killers without the need to multiclass into rogue for Sneak Attack.

Also the Accurate trade secret seems a little underpowered. I would suggest doubling the bonus when the target is unaware of the bards attack or being flanked. This would be a small but useful boost in the bard's combat abilities for those that took this Trade Secret.

On another note, as I've said before, the Poison rules need to be expanded. Basically all I'm looking for is some rules that include poisons that have different onset times (right now every poison has an immediate effect and then a secondary one one minute later, or just one of the two) and some consideration of detectability both before and after poisoning in the pricing.

A poison that is very hard to detect and has a longer onset time is far more useful for covert poisoning efforts then one that has a short onset time and is easily detected.

Additionally being hit by the same poison multipule times in a short span of time should make it harder to continue saving versus the poison. And I don't buy all poisons being an all or nothing save! I know you guys didn't make any of this stuff up, but we could really use some better poison rules.

I've just had to wing it in my game.
#6
gilliard_derosan
Apr 20, 2006 1:23:20 I currently have a Half Giant Bard in my group. As for combat, he is decently effective because he is a Half Giant, but he put a low score into strength, because he needed charisma, intelligence and the like. So while he can hit nicely, do some decent damage, he can't take many hits before going down.

As for Bard abilities. Most of them i like where they are. However, I had to go back to an old standard and give the Bard a free poison from the list every level. Basically, I roll a d30, reference the list of poisons in the DMG, and that poison is added to his list of things that he can make, for free, once per day (one dose total per day, selected from anything on his list). I am thinking of going and limiting their shelf life to a week or so, since they are free to make.

I Think Smuggler should be a choice instead an increase to multiple skills. At 1st and every odd level thereafter the Bard gains a +1 in either Bludd OR Sleight of Hand. But this is a minor issue. Since the Bard has no Sneak Attack to take advantage of a high bluff, it is not a major issue. Perhaps even add Streetsmart to this list. It seems like a Bard would be better at gathering information over time than the others. Perhaps every odd level, they may put +1 into any one of the three skills.

Hmmm, something I jusy discovered in DS release 6.
Defensive Roll: A bard of 15th or higher level learns how to avoid a potentially lethal blow. He gains the
ability to reduce damage from a knockout blow, as described in the rouge Defensive Roll ability.

Should be Rogue, as I doubt women's makeup has a Defensive Roll ability
#7
flip
Apr 20, 2006 8:22:45
As for Bard abilities. Most of them i like where they are. However, I had to go back to an old standard and give the Bard a free poison from the list every level. Basically, I roll a d30, reference the list of poisons in the DMG, and that poison is added to his list of things that he can make, for free, once per day (one dose total per day, selected from anything on his list). I am thinking of going and limiting their shelf life to a week or so, since they are free to make.

Hrm. Okay, well...

I would take the approach that they know how to make the poisoins that they're able to make. No lists, no choosing, no rolling ... if it's legal to make, you can make it. Just like you don't have to dig up a recepie to craft a sword, or to enchant a ring with a particular spell ... if you can do it, you know how. It's just less bookkeeping.

And they're not free to make. They take time, and they take ingredients. If you're just wandering out in the desert gathering ingredients, that's still time, and it's personal danger -- you're libal to get jumped by something out there.
#8
gilliard_derosan
Apr 20, 2006 20:39:16
Hrm. Okay, well...

I would take the approach that they know how to make the poisoins that they're able to make. No lists, no choosing, no rolling ... if it's legal to make, you can make it. Just like you don't have to dig up a recepie to craft a sword, or to enchant a ring with a particular spell ... if you can do it, you know how. It's just less bookkeeping.

And they're not free to make. They take time, and they take ingredients. If you're just wandering out in the desert gathering ingredients, that's still time, and it's personal danger -- you're libal to get jumped by something out there.

When I say Free, I mean free as it happened in 1st and 2nd edition Dark Sun. My bard can buy "posion supplies" and make any poisons out there, assuming he has the time and money and the proper source of illicit goods. His free poisons are a list of poisons, 1 per level, that he can put together with spit, bubblegum and a paperclip as it were. He can make a single dose per day of one of these poisons with ingredients as common as hair, dung, a drop of blood or whatnot.

It helps make up for a lacking there. It is hard to place what the lacking is, but I have noticed it in my game... The original characters in my DS game are 11th/12th level. I think the the Halfling Ranger is 12th, and the Half Giant is 11th (He paid for a psion to perform psychic reformation to help fix a bad feat choice) HG is 7th Bard, 1 Barbarian, so he has a nice selection of the Bardic abilities, ut he was just missing something. And being in a dirt-poor game, it was difficult for him to gather money to buy poison supplies to help his trade. So, I implemented the old rule, and he can "dig" up ingredients to make 1 dose per day of any single poison from his list.
#9
kalthandrix
Apr 20, 2006 21:15:28 I would not say that the 'free poison' creation is a really good idea- most of the poison on the DMG list comes from something- critter, plant, ect.. and I do not see how they would or should be able to make purple worm poison for example- they are not a purple worm.

Here is my solution- make a need trade secret called Improvise Toxin- allowing the bard to make from "stuff laying around" a poison that would have the DC of 10 + Int modifier + 1/4 bard levels. The type would be up to the bard (contact, injury, ect.) and effectiveness (ie primary and secondary damage) of such a poison would depend on the bards ranks in Craft (poisonmaking). I would still make it cost something, but the price would be small or just require them to purchase a poisonmakers kit or something.
#10
kelsen
Apr 23, 2006 10:59:24 If for athas.org redesinging the core rules for crafting poisons is negotiable, I suggest it could be reworked as following:

Bards gain a class ability called "poison making".

Poision making allows a bard to craft poisons using the craft (poison) skill.

The DC of the craft skill is set according to the type of poison the bard wants to create.

First Step - To set the base DC of the craft check to create a poison the bard must first choose the delivery method:

#11
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 23, 2006 11:32:50 Interesting, not a bad start....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flip Apr 19, 2006 15:07:32	This is a feedback thread I'm going to be running. The results of these threads are not garunteed to go into R7, but would definately make it into R8. Ground rule: Please don't start the threads yourself. I've got elevated privledges that let me actually manage the threads that I start, but not arbitrary threads. Also, I'd just like to keep the pacing under control. Ground rule: This is for feedback and observations from acutal playing, be that PC or NPC/enemy combatant. Either way, this is not the place for armchair theorizing. I want to see what a year's worth of experience has laid out. Ground rule: Keep the thread on topic. If you must stray, start a new thread. So. Bards. The class was compeltely written from the ground up, so. Who has had experience in playing with a Bard character, or experience in DMing a group with a Bard character. Any abilities seem overpowering? Any abilities seem like they're completely underpowered? Any abilities just seem like they show up at the wrong level, but are otherwise okay? Any thoughts on the Trade Secrets? Good mechanic bad implementation, more secrets needed, indifferent? Too powerful, too uneven, or just right? Please also take into account the style of campaign you're in ... I would expect a Bard to be a much more effective character in a city-based "political" campaign than I would expect him to be in a dungeon-crawl or a wilderness survival adventure.
#2 flip Apr 19, 2006 15:08:20	(saved)
#3 nytcrawlr Apr 19, 2006 16:42:05	Well, the last time I ran, several players brought up the fact that they thought the Bard needed a few more Trade Secrets, but no one played one (and that may have been why, who knows). So take that with some salt and a slug I guess.
#4 bengeldorn Apr 19, 2006 19:04:46	I agree, bards need more trade secrets. In addition there should be class feature that says that a bard can craft alchemical items. I have a bard in my group, who uses more craft (alchemy) for his class than using poisons, and we didn't notice for more than half a year that a bard was able to produce those items without having a spellcasting class. I've tried to create mechanics and special items that would have been able to be produced without a spellcasting class and had allways in mind, that those shouldn't be as powerfull as the ones with magic. This time wasted I spend therefore was wasted until I accidentelly saw that in the skill descrioption it is noted that a bard could make normal alchemical items without being a spellcaster. Otherwise this class is really fun and the guy who plays the bard realy enjoys it.
#5 ruhl-than_sage Apr 19, 2006 19:25:17	I've got a Bard in my game, though he's multiclassed and more Telepath then bard... He does really well in the city and still manages to hold his own in the wilderness, though that's more from the psionics end of things. Personally I find that Bards are very weak combatants, and I've had to multiclass my NPC bard's to make them effective in any sort of combat situation even assassination. It would be nice to see some adjustments on the Trade Secrets (which I love BTW): I would like the see Sudden Strike: +1d6 added to the list. Bard's are supposed to be effective Assassins, but only having poison as an effective killing tool is pretty limiting. Adding Sudden Strike to the list would allow them to be more effective killers without the need to multiclass into rogue for Sneak Attack. Also the Accurate trade secret seems a little underpowered. I would suggest doubling the bonus when the target is unaware of the bards attack or being flanked. This would be a small but useful boost in the bard's combat abilities for those that took this Trade Secret. On another note, as I've said before, the Poison rules need to be expanded. Basically all I'm looking for is some rules that include poisons that have different onset times (right now every poison has an immediate effect and then a secondary one one minute later, or just one of the two) and some consideration of detectability both before and after poisoning in the pricing. A poison that is very hard to detect and has a longer onset time is far more useful for covert poisoning efforts then one that has a short onset time and is easily detected. Additionally being hit by the same poison multipule times in a short span of time should make it harder to continue saving versus the poison. And I don't buy all poisons being an all or nothing save! I know you guys didn't make any of this stuff up, but we could really use some better poison rules. I've just had to wing it in my game.
#6 gilliard_derosan Apr 20, 2006 1:23:20	I currently have a Half Giant Bard in my group. As for combat, he is decently effective because he is a Half Giant, but he put a low score into strength, because he needed charisma, intelligence and the like. So while he can hit nicely, do some decent damage, he can't take many hits before going down. As for Bard abilities. Most of them i like where they are. However, I had to go back to an old standard and give the Bard a free poison from the list every level. Basically, I roll a d30, reference the list of poisons in the DMG, and that poison is added to his list of things that he can make, for free, once per day (one dose total per day, selected from anything on his list). I am thinking of going and limiting their shelf life to a week or so, since they are free to make. I Think Smuggler should be a choice instead an increase to multiple skills. At 1st and every odd level thereafter the Bard gains a +1 in either Bludd OR Sleight of Hand. But this is a minor issue. Since the Bard has no Sneak Attack to take advantage of a high bluff, it is not a major issue. Perhaps even add Streetsmart to this list. It seems like a Bard would be better at gathering information over time than the others. Perhaps every odd level, they may put +1 into any one of the three skills. Hmmm, something I jusy discovered in DS release 6. Defensive Roll: A bard of 15th or higher level learns how to avoid a potentially lethal blow. He gains the ability to reduce damage from a knockout blow, as described in the rouge Defensive Roll ability. Should be Rogue, as I doubt women's makeup has a Defensive Roll ability
#7 flip Apr 20, 2006 8:22:45	As for Bard abilities. Most of them i like where they are. However, I had to go back to an old standard and give the Bard a free poison from the list every level. Basically, I roll a d30, reference the list of poisons in the DMG, and that poison is added to his list of things that he can make, for free, once per day (one dose total per day, selected from anything on his list). I am thinking of going and limiting their shelf life to a week or so, since they are free to make. Hrm. Okay, well... I would take the approach that they know how to make the poisoins that they're able to make. No lists, no choosing, no rolling ... if it's legal to make, you can make it. Just like you don't have to dig up a recepie to craft a sword, or to enchant a ring with a particular spell ... if you can do it, you know how. It's just less bookkeeping. And they're not free to make. They take time, and they take ingredients. If you're just wandering out in the desert gathering ingredients, that's still time, and it's personal danger -- you're libal to get jumped by something out there.
#8 gilliard_derosan Apr 20, 2006 20:39:16	Hrm. Okay, well... I would take the approach that they know how to make the poisoins that they're able to make. No lists, no choosing, no rolling ... if it's legal to make, you can make it. Just like you don't have to dig up a recepie to craft a sword, or to enchant a ring with a particular spell ... if you can do it, you know how. It's just less bookkeeping. And they're not free to make. They take time, and they take ingredients. If you're just wandering out in the desert gathering ingredients, that's still time, and it's personal danger -- you're libal to get jumped by something out there. When I say Free, I mean free as it happened in 1st and 2nd edition Dark Sun. My bard can buy "posion supplies" and make any poisons out there, assuming he has the time and money and the proper source of illicit goods. His free poisons are a list of poisons, 1 per level, that he can put together with spit, bubblegum and a paperclip as it were. He can make a single dose per day of one of these poisons with ingredients as common as hair, dung, a drop of blood or whatnot. It helps make up for a lacking there. It is hard to place what the lacking is, but I have noticed it in my game... The original characters in my DS game are 11th/12th level. I think the the Halfling Ranger is 12th, and the Half Giant is 11th (He paid for a psion to perform psychic reformation to help fix a bad feat choice) HG is 7th Bard, 1 Barbarian, so he has a nice selection of the Bardic abilities, ut he was just missing something. And being in a dirt-poor game, it was difficult for him to gather money to buy poison supplies to help his trade. So, I implemented the old rule, and he can "dig" up ingredients to make 1 dose per day of any single poison from his list.
#9 kalthandrix Apr 20, 2006 21:15:28	I would not say that the 'free poison' creation is a really good idea- most of the poison on the DMG list comes from something- critter, plant, ect.. and I do not see how they would or should be able to make purple worm poison for example- they are not a purple worm. Here is my solution- make a need trade secret called Improvise Toxin- allowing the bard to make from "stuff laying around" a poison that would have the DC of 10 + Int modifier + 1/4 bard levels. The type would be up to the bard (contact, injury, ect.) and effectiveness (ie primary and secondary damage) of such a poison would depend on the bards ranks in Craft (poisonmaking). I would still make it cost something, but the price would be small or just require them to purchase a poisonmakers kit or something.
#10 kelsen Apr 23, 2006 10:59:24	If for athas.org redesinging the core rules for crafting poisons is negotiable, I suggest it could be reworked as following: Bards gain a class ability called "poison making". Poision making allows a bard to craft poisons using the craft (poison) skill. The DC of the craft skill is set according to the type of poison the bard wants to create. First Step - To set the base DC of the craft check to create a poison the bard must first choose the delivery method:
#11 ruhl-than_sage Apr 23, 2006 11:32:50	Interesting, not a bad start....