The Mul Druid is a nomad sort so Methvezem's comment regarding something nomadic would be very appropriate, although the character is running under a conglomeration of the Athasian Druid modification and the Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana, so some substitution levels would not work for him (not that that makes them bad sub levels necessarily)
The Half-giant is running a wilderness rogue, also from UA, although to be honest I think the only rogueish thing we've seen out of him is Sneak attack (his INT modifier is -3, I beleive, so not much in the way of skill points) although he did open a door the last session...with his club.
I don't personally have any particularly cool ideas, although in the case of the half-giant, some rogue sub levels that emphasize strength solutions rather then sneaky solutions seems appropos.
Jack
Question. Aren't subsitution levels based on a race's favored class for the most part?
Yes and no. About half of the existing substitution levels modify a race's favoured class to emphasize the connection of the two. But there are indeed a whole lot of substitution levels for classes which seem unfitting, contradictonary even, for their race. Game designers use these form of substitution levels to adjust classes and races which normally might have problems fitting together. Examples from Races of Stone include Gnomish Rangers (with more emphasis on stealth) or Goliath Rogues (with a variety of stone-related abilities).
So, it might be a good idea to work on some substitution levels to help Jackmojo (and others) out.
Yes and no. About half of the existing substitution levels modify a race's favoured class to emphasize the connection of the two. But there are indeed a whole lot of substitution levels for classes which seem unfitting, contradictonary even, for their race. Game designers use these form of substitution levels to adjust classes and races which normally might have problems fitting together. Examples from Races of Stone include Gnomish Rangers (with more emphasis on stealth) or Goliath Rogues (with a variety of stone-related abilities).
The dwarven Clerics from Races of Stone are one of my favorite Sub level sets, for example. Additionally the substitution levels are one of my favorite mechanics in 3.5 and I figure the more options the merrier.
So, it might be a good idea to work on some substitution levels to help Jackmojo (and others) out.
Thats right, enough backtalk, off to the salt mines with the lot of you ;)
Jack
Here's a couple of ideas for your mul druid. If your interested, I'll do a formal sub-level class writeup later. Let me know what you think. Others are welcome to comment as well.
Mul Druid (Tireless Protector)
Hit Die: d10
Shared Endurance (Ex) Starting at 3rd level, the mul druid's animal companion inherits some of his natural stamina. The mul druid's animal companion gains the tireless and extended activity traits of a mul. This benefit replaces the druid's trackless step ability.
Vitality of the Land (Su): At 6th level, the mul druid's physical resilience is bolstered due to his connection with the land. The mul druid receives Die Hard as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the druid's ability to wild shape one additional time per day.
Nature's Fortitude (Su): Beginning at 9th level, the mul druid's life force is shielded by nature it self. The mul druid losses one point less from ability damaging and draining effects. Additionally, the mul druid loses one level less from energy draining effects. This benefit replaces the druid's venom immunity ability.
Mul Druid (Tireless Protector)
Shared Endurance (Ex) Starting at 3rd, level the mul druid's animal companion inherits some his masters stamina. The mul druid's animal companion gains the tireless and extended activity traits of a mul. This benefit replaces the druid's trackless step ability.
Vitality of the Land (Su): At 6th level, the mul druid's physical resilience is bolstered due to his connection with the land. The mul druid receives Die Hard as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the druid's ability to wild shape one additional time per day.
Nature's Fortitude (Su): Beginning at 9th level, the mul druid's life force is shielded by nature it self. The mul druid takes one less point from ability damaging and draining effects. This benefit replaces the druid's venom immunity ability
I totaly like the emphasis on mulish fortitude (might go well with a bigger hit die at these levels too) Another angle might be an emphasis on their Strength (what with that being their highest Attribute racially), perhaps instead of the animal companion buff (not much of a fan of that but I'm not an animal companion fan in general, so I am biased :D )
Of the three, Nature's Fortitude is the only one I am a liking a lot, (although as I said the theme is cool) as it seems both a cool power and a fair trade (although it might be a bit weaker over all, what with some poisons doing multiple d10's of ability damage, perhaps add the same ammount of resistance to level drain?)
Jack
Nature's Fortitude (Su): Beginning at 9th level, the mul druid's life force is shielded by nature it self. The mul druid losses one less point from ability damaging and draining effects. Additionally, the mul druid loses one less level from energy draining effects. This benefit replaces the druid's venom immunity ability
I agree that the mul druid's hit die should be increased to a d10 at these levels.
Here's what I've got for half-giant rogue. Let me know what you think.
Half-Giant Rogue (Thug)
Hit Die: d8
Shield Others (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the half-giant rogue can use his massive body to shield others from being harmed from a trap that he has personally triggered. If a trap that the half-giant rogue triggered would effect one or more other characters, they receive a +1 dodge bonus to their AC against attacks made by traps and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps. This bonus increases to +2 when the half-giant reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th, to +4 when he reaches 12th, to +5 when he reaches 15th, and +6 when he reaches 18th. The half-giant rogue himself does not receive these benefits.
This benefit replaces the rogue's trap sense ability as well as the higher level improvements of the ability.
Lumbering Brute (Ex): Starting at 5th level,the half-giant rogue can utilize his tremendous size in order forcefully move an opponent. The half-giant rogue receives Improved Bull Rush as a bonus feat. The half-giant rogue does not need the prerequisite normally required for this feat. This benefit replaces the rogue's increased damage to Sneak Attack gained at this level.
Brutal Strike (Ex): At 9th level, the half-giant rogue can attempt to use his great strength to stun opponents anytime he would be able to make a sneak attack. When successfully hitting an opponent with a sneak attack in melee, the half-giant rogue can forgo dealing sneak attack damage and instead force their foe to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 rogue level + Str modifier) in addition to dealing normal damage. An opponent who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before the half-giant's next action). This benefit replaces the rogue's increased damage to Sneak Attack gained at this level.
I particularly like Brutal Strike, but have some clarification questions on these abilities:
Shield others, does this replace the trap sense at every level with this benefit? (I think that would be cool)
On brutal strike do you have to be having a potential sneak attack roll to use it? Or is it just that it cannot be combined with one?
All very neat, makes for a sort of bodyguard type really, which I can certainly imagine a slave being trained as, very cool.
Also perhaps enhanced fortitude saves or BAB at these levels...or does that not work for substitution levels?
Jack
Shield others, does this replace the trap sense at every level with this benefit? (I think that would be cool)
Well, I initially intended for it to be for only that level. I didn't want to completely screw the half-giant out of the trap sense ability. You could have it that the shield other ability completely replaces trap sense altogether and have the bonus to AC and saves increase as trap sense would have. I think that makes the ability a little to much. What do others think?
On brutal strike do you have to be having a potential sneak attack roll to use it? Or is it just that it cannot be combined with one?
Yes and no. Its when you would be able to make an AoO which is normally when you could make a sneak attack. I could reword it in that the ability can be used any time the character would have normally been able to make a sneak attack.
Also perhaps enhanced fortitude saves or BAB at these levels...or does that not work for substitution levels?
Personally, I think that maybe a bit much. Sub-levels should more-or-less stay in line with the base class that the sub-class is meant for.
Made some changes for the HG if your interested.
However, Sysane has helped me see the light and now it definitely looks like this is something pretty useful in further personalizing one's character.
Good job Sysane.
Ok at first I was not liking this whole racial substitution thing, seemed like yet another tool for min-maxers.
However, Sysane has helped me see the light and now it definitely looks like this is something pretty useful in further personalizing one's character.
Good job Sysane.
Thanks Nyt. I may try do some for other races at some point.
I have a PrC in the works that is called Mul Battlemaster that will be cool- but I could have and thought of going with the replacement level thing for a mul gladiator...as of yet I am undecided as to which path I will take.
I was at first...hostile to the idea. But I love what you did Sysane.
I have a PrC in the works that is called Mul Battlemaster that will be cool- but I could have and thought of going with the replacement level thing for a mul gladiator...as of yet I am undecided as to which path I will take.
Thanks Kal. I'd love to see the Battlemaster. Maybe having it go the gladiator sub-level route isn't such a bad idea. Give it a shot
Good changes on the Half-Giant I think.
I will be pointing that player at these for certain.
As to this battlemaster PrC/sublevel sounds fun, although making good substitutions for the Gladiator is tough since its kinda gimped in its current incarnation.
Jack
Hey Sysane,
Good changes on the Half-Giant I think.
I will be pointing that player at these for certain.
As to this battlemaster PrC/sublevel sounds fun, although making good substitutions for the Gladiator is tough since its kinda gimped in its current incarnation.
Jack
Thanks Jack. I made one last change to the HG's sheild others ability. I may try to do a full sub-level format write-up for these at some point soon.
At this point of the conversation I can only say praise and wait for the full write-up ;) .
I really like the Tireless' features, they tie-in with the mul's racial abilities nicely, and Shared Endurance is a great idea.
For the Thug, believe it or not, it was the same name that I had chosen for the class, after Jack's description.
I really like the Lumbering Brute and Brutal Strike abilities, I was thinking on doing something along those line, as I saw the HG as, factly, a brute. Or perhaps as a bouncer, which is sometime the same ;). Now, some questions about the Shield Other ability: Is there a limit to the number of persons that can benefits from the bonuses? At which distance must they be from the Thug to benefits from it (adjacent squares)? That would clarify some questions that could come up during play, especially in regards to high-CR traps, like a [i]fireball/I] trap or a fusillade of dart trap.
Ok at first I was not liking this whole racial substitution thing, seemed like yet another tool for min-maxers.
However, Sysane has helped me see the light and now it definitely looks like this is something pretty useful in further personalizing one's character.
I personally think that variant levels is a great way to give uniqueness to a class vs a race or an organization that would not normally merit a full PrC, the reason why I did the slave-warrior in the first place.
Now, some questions about the Shield Other ability: Is there a limit to the number of persons that can benefits from the bonuses? At which distance must they be from the Thug to benefits from it (adjacent squares)? That would clarify some questions that could come up during play, especially in regards to high-CR traps, like a [i]fireball/I] trap or a fusillade of dart trap.
Well, I'm thinking it should affect the entire trap effect that the thug personally set off. I view it a long the lines of a soldier jumping on a grenade.