That is, where the silt came from and what is it. Did it come from defiling the salty water of the ocean? Did it come from the brown tide being defiled? What is the brown tide? Is silt just some type of powder? Is it sand? These are things I have never comprehended fully.
I know one thing, though, that one can't swim or float on silt. Or that if you breathe it in, you die, etc., etc.. I also know, that the brown tide swallowed the ocean and ended the Blue age. But I can't make out what these things have to do with each other.
Now, if someone could explain to me the context of these concepts, I'd be very thankful.
Maybe I just have to re-read the last two prism pentad novels :D
That is, where the silt came from and what is it. Did it come from defiling the salty water of the ocean? Did it come from the brown tide being defiled? What is the brown tide? Is silt just some type of powder? Is it sand?
Don't think the Blue Age ocean was analogous to Earth's briny seas.
You may recall a scene in the Prism Pentad where Sadira and her half-sister are atop the Pristine Tower, along with a pool of water. Sadira's half-sister attempts to cast an arcane spell powering the spell with energy from the pool. As the half-sister powers the spell a brown stain begins to grow in the pool.
I interviewed Troy Denning (co-creator of the setting and author of the Prism Pentad) asking him about this very scene. I asked him if this pool was actually a remnant of the original Blue Age life-giving waters the halflings created their life-shaped creations out of, and I asked him then if this brown swirling was a hint at the Brown Tide that ended the Blue Age.
Troy's engimatic response, paraphrased I believe, was "That sounds like something I'd do, doesn't it?"
Maybe I just have to re-read the last two prism pentad novels :D
Especially the scene described above.
If we make the assumption that the Brown Tide is linked to the silt that is present in the low oceanic basins all over Athas today we are left with coming up with some explanation for what happened the the remnant of the tide during the Green Age.
[Proposal] Maybe with the ending of the Blue Age, when the Brown Tide died it settled gently to the bottom of the new Green Age ocean. The dead microorganisms lay there, undisturbed, many many meters thick until they were exposed by the disappearance of the water.
So it's basically just the lightest of dust, gathered from the sandy wastes, from all over athas? It just so happens to go where the earth needs a filling?
Yah, more or less. Plus that whole brown tide BS. :D
Yah, more or less. Plus that whole brown tide BS. :D
I don't know how, or why, but you always manage to crack me up somehow :D hehe
Yeah that brown tide really is BS. I've never comprehended what, why, how or whatever
Yeah that brown tide really is BS. I've never comprehended what, why, how or whatever
Halfling oil tanker - a really, really, really big oil tanker - hit some rockstem and went down. The Life-Shapers tried to cover up their use of "non-organic tools" by calling it the "brown tide."
Don't think the Blue Age ocean was analogous to Earth's briny seas.
You may recall a scene in the Prism Pentad where Sadira and her half-sister are atop the Pristine Tower, along with a pool of water. Sadira's half-sister attempts to cast an arcane spell powering the spell with energy from the pool. As the half-sister powers the spell a brown stain begins to grow in the pool.
I interviewed Troy Denning (co-creator of the setting and author of the Prism Pentad) asking him about this very scene. I asked him if this pool was actually a remnant of the original Blue Age life-giving waters the halflings created their life-shaped creations out of, and I asked him then if this brown swirling was a hint at the Brown Tide that ended the Blue Age.
Troy's engimatic response, paraphrased I believe, was "That sounds like something I'd do, doesn't it?"
Especially the scene described above.
If we make the assumption that the Brown Tide is linked to the silt that is present in the low oceanic basins all over Athas today we are left with coming up with some explanation for what happened the the remnant of the tide during the Green Age.
[Proposal] Maybe with the ending of the Blue Age, when the Brown Tide died it settled gently to the bottom of the new Green Age ocean. The dead microorganisms lay there, undisturbed, many many meters thick until they were exposed by the disappearance of the water.
I'm far from an expert in DS lore, but maybe the Brown Tide was Silt. Possibly Defiling Magic converts Blue Age water into slit. We know that Silt is less dense that water because you can't swim in it and you can't float on it, so Silt would float in water, much like oil. Also what little does live in Silt, probably took a LONG time to adapt to living in it, so silt would have proved deadly to Blue Age life. For some of the spells I've seen we know it is possible to create magic effects that reverse defileing. So maybe the brown tide was actually a grand attempt to create something new using something new, in this case magic. Unfotunatly the halfings of the Blue Age knew nothing of magic so in trying to do whatever they were doing, they cast the first defiling spell that on a massive scale, or possibly a continuously defiling spell that started converting oceans to silt, the Brown Tide. The magic that changed the sun from blue to yellow cancelled and possibly reversed the the defiling magic, but the change in the sun lowered the ocean levels and so began the Green Age.
Just a little theory, I like theories.
Actually Silt wouldn't float in water, it would become mud and settle at the bottom.
Ok you got me on one part, it would become mud, but it is still less dense than water, so unless there is specific mention of that mud sinking in water, it would become mud and the mud would float in water.
Ok you got me on one part, it would become mud, but it is still less dense than water, so unless there is specific mention of that mud sinking in water, it would become mud and the mud would float in water.
What are you talking about?
Of course mud sinks in water! Have you ever seen the stuff, it's much more dense then water?!?
Silt may be less dense then water, but when it becomes wet it turns to mud and becomes more dense then water.
I always wondered what happens to the circle of ash that a Defiler creates. Do you suppose it blows away and eventually becomes silt?
The key word in your question is ash. The defiler creates a circle of ash, not silt. Ash just whithers away and becomes nothing.
What are you talking about?
Of course mud sinks in water! Have you ever seen the stuff, it's much more dense then water?!?
Silt may be less dense then water, but when it becomes wet it turns to mud and becomes more dense then water.
ok, normal mud yes, normal mud is made from dirt that is more dense than water and water. Silt when it gets wet turns to mud when it gets wet, this mud is composed of silt, dirt less dense than water and water, while the density of the silt mud is greater than greater than silt, the density of the silt mud would still be less than water unless the silt changed on a more fundamental level than just getting wet and turning to mud.
ok, normal mud yes, normal mud is made from dirt that is more dense than water and water. Silt when it gets wet turns to mud when it gets wet, this mud is composed of silt, dirt less dense than water and water, while the density of the silt mud is greater than greater than silt, the density of the silt mud would still be less than water unless the silt changed on a more fundamental level than just getting wet and turning to mud.
:heehee PASS THAT DOOBIE!! What the hell are you talking about?
My logic is that mud made from differant kinds of dirt all has differant densities because not all dirt has the same density. And even with each kind of dirt the density of the mud varies with the amount of water in mud, thus we get muds that is more like damp soil, muds that are like puddling, and muds that more like brown water. One thing all dirts that I can think of have in common, and certainly all dirts that we can easily relate too, is they are all more dense than water, and as such any mud made from then will be more dense than water. Even the mud that is more like brown water will settle out because the particulate matter in water is more dense than the water. Silt we already know breaks some of the rules by being less dense than the water. Logically adding more water to it isn't going to increase the density of the silt mud to greater than water because the water isn't more dense than water. There are ways that things could work out such that silt mud would be more dense than water. Combineing with water could chemically change the silt so that it is greater than water, or the low density of the silt could be also be a result of microscopic air pockets in between the silt particles and adding water fills these air pockets leaving the silt particles to sink in the water. However if this was the case even silt should be able to settle to the point that it could be walked on, even if that ment being up to your knees most of the time because this is how all soils work to some degree or another. So I'm inclined to believe that a mud made from silt is probably less dense than water. My theory reguarding the Brown Tide and silt could still work is silt mud was more dense than water because the constant motion of the ocean water would keep pushing the silt particles up and it would take a long time for then to settle out to the bottom.
I hope that explains my thought process better and can at least let to see where I'm coming from.
-Dark Helmet
Lone Star - I am your mother's brother's sister's cousin's father's former roommate!
-Dark Helmet
rofl
for those interested:
Sand -- Small substrate particles, generally referring to particles less than 2 mm in diameter. Sand is larger than silt and smaller than cobble or rubble
Silt -- Substrate particles smaller than sand and larger than clay
www.streamnet.org/pub-ed/ff/Glossary/glossaryfish.html
also:
Silt -- fine dirt (soil or sand) that is suspended in water.
SILTATION -- Siltation is the build-up of silt that is suspended in rivers or other bodies of water
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/rainforest/glossary/indexs.shtml
Although I am intrigued by the possible connection to the brown tide, I just think of silt as being nothing more than lots and lots of dust all in one spot.
Obviously my above post isn't definitive proof that Athas' silt is just like Earth's silt, but IMHO, most likely... it is
Although I am intrigued by the possible connection to the brown tide, I just think of silt as being nothing more than lots and lots of dust all in one spot.
Everything I've seen in what I've read seems to say you are right. The only significant differance i can come up with it it does seem to be less dense than water, you sink in it and it's to thin to swim in, and I THINK it can flow like water under the right conditions. But other than that you should be right.
I hope that explains my thought process better and can at least let to see where I'm coming from.
Well yeah, it does. I just got confused with the ...from dirt that is more dense than water and water... and ...dirt less dense than water and water, while the density of the silt mud is greater than greater than silt... that totally threw me off I couldn't stop laughing. But I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, and your last post explained this very well.
Gravitational flows don't happen when silt is already at the bottom of the sea, by definition, and eartquakes don't have much effect either.
My nonexpert opinion says that maybe the properties of silt could change from one moment to the next, but that it won't cause expansions or shifting of silt masses in a basin, so that weither the properties change is of little consequence to adventurers.
The only "logical" way I can think of that could result in the seas of Athas turning completely into silt would be if the original Blue Age seas were already fairly silt-filled, when they lowered the silt density of the Green Age seas thus became extremely thick (truly making it the Green Age, with the seas a dark green color between the silt and algae), and then as they dry up and the plant life within them is destroyed (from defiling magic) what's left is just barren silt, devoid of minerals or anything else life-giving.
...but of course the silt still has to be made of *something* so what the heck is it?
The world is made out of elemental matter! How logical is that?
The water turned into silt, don't look farther than that.
Logic? :D
The world is made out of elemental matter! How logical is that?
The water turned into silt, don't look farther than that.
Hey now, I made sure to put "logic" in quotation marks. :P
Everything I've seen in what I've read seems to say you are right. The only significant differance i can come up with it it does seem to be less dense than water, you sink in it and it's to thin to swim in, and I THINK it can flow like water under the right conditions. But other than that you should be right.
Of course it's less dense than water... it's a pile of dust :P But when it absorbs water, the combination of water + silt = mud. And yes it can flow like a liquid... picture an hourglass; particles of sand flow from the top to the bottom of the hourglass. Enough silt gathered together would do the same thing... which is how it all collected in the silt basins anyways
I mean it's pretty clear that Athasian Silt is not particulates suspended in water, so it must be something else entirely.
I always imagined it as really fine dust that acted as a fluid.
Where it came from and how it collected in the "Sea of Silt," I think remains pretty unclear and I don't really see a need to explain it.
If you're just curious about it, then you could come up with any number of possible explanations. I still maintain defiler ash can't just "disappear" but might eventually blow away, break down and become something like silt. I mean volcanic ash is even the right color... maybe defiler ash fades over time to become pale and, well, ashy.
Or it could be that when you defile healthy earth it breaks down into sand and silt.
I think no matter what, you're pretty safe in assuming that it's because of defiliers. ;)
I wouldn't pry to deeply, you aren't likely to find very satisfying answers to these sorts of questions.
Just another thought. And yes I know me thinking seems to be dangerous.
It may be my eventual goal, shou;d the characters become epic enough, that they may one day restore (or bring to the surface) water to parts of Athas. While, it would not fix the world situation, it might cause a change in population centers, power bases, etc, as people move to where the water is and abandon the oppression of the SK-controlled cities.
...it's pretty clear that Athasian Silt is not particulates suspended in water, so it must be something else entirely...
the water dried up and left the silt behind...
Anybody ever wash their dishes and discover later on that there was crud left behind on the glasses? That's because it was in the water, which left the crud behind after it dried up.
My take to the "where has all the water gone?" question is that a lot of it is now underground.
In honor of Enrico Fermi, I hereby coin the DeRosan Paradox.
Gilliard DeRosan is said to have asked his internet colleagues in 2006: "Where has all the water gone?"
The simple question "Where has all the water gone?" (alternatively, "Where's the drain?") is possibly apocryphal but DeRosan is widely credited with simplifying and clarifying the problem of the improbability of the dissapearance of Green Age waters.
:P
Long experience has taught me these two make for pointless and ultimately ridiculous arguments about the "realities" and "could haves" of Athas (and any other fantasy realm or setting). I could point out other discussions that have gone down the same path...
For example, there was on back on the mailing list that tried to determine Athas' size based on the color of its sky, the thrust of which was based on a terrible lack of understanding regarding the behavior of light waves in a gaseous medium, despite the "scientific" language/arguments attempted to make the point...I'm sorry, that whole conversation still just brings me pain.
Given this, I am fully in favor of the idea that the water -- bereft of its life-force by defiling, as well as being spiritually assaulted and corrupted by hostile elementals -- simply turned into silt. Or any other reasonable, logical (ie: internally consistent) explanation that does not require "Well, in the real world things work like X, so this doesn't make sense."
Anything except more "Silt is a particulate matter and silt is lighter than water, so it should float, except when it is mud..." and "It would have taken forever for those things to evolve..." and "Where did all the water go? It can't just evaporate and disappear because that isn't what happens according to the water cycle..." sorts of discussions. Because 'Yes'. And people can't hurl lightning from their hands by turning your mother's lovely flower bed into ash, either.
- Maybe Bob the Giant drank all the water.
- Maybe the trolls gave it all to the drakes to hide before Hamanu killed them.
- Maybe Rajaat tried to stop the elven fleet from escaping him at Balic by casting one gigantic "Water to Dust" spell, powered by evil, crazed Mud elementals, except he stole all the water to form his elemental body and so Mud became Silt.
There. That's interesting, playable, fantastic[1] stuff. "Nuh-uh, my calculations indicate there is only 10^-5 particles of silt per cubic mililiter of seawater and thus can not account for all the silt in the silt sea" is NOT.
[1] As in fiction-or-myth-like, not as in super-great.
There are two mistakes being made in this thread: the first is that you are trying to discuss a fantasy world by applying scientific principles/behaviors of the real world to it; the second is that none of you are scientists and are utilizing (at best) pop science to make supporting arguments.
Yeah, this is my beef with the whole "Is Defiling evil" great metaethics debate of 2006 that keeps cropping up every few months or so and annoys the hell out me because it seems to attract all the pop ethics gurus of our time into one spot, heh.
Simple answer, according to the rules IT IS!
Yeah, this is my beef with the whole "Is Defiling evil" great metaethics debate of 2006 that keeps cropping up every few months or so and annoys the hell out me because it seems to attract all the pop ethics gurus of our time into one spot, heh.
Simple answer, according to the rules IT IS!
Wow, I'm new to DS so I haven't bumped into this issue yet, but that is the best answer I've seem to an alignment issue in a LONG time.
You wouldn't believe how made I was when a guy in my group got to preform tortue argue that it wasn't evil because he was using it toward good ends and later pick up the saint template.
I like your answer this stuff better if the rules say it's evil then it is.
I say the space halflings came every once in a while to steal water from Athas since the Green Age to create another water planet away from all this bickering about silt. :D
You're almost right, you see the silt is the dried sewage waste left behind by the halfling on thier trips to pick up water. Can't have your new utopian water planet covered in crap.
Wow, I'm new to DS so I haven't bumped into this issue yet, but that is the best answer I've seem to an alignment issue in a LONG time.
You wouldn't believe how made I was when a guy in my group got to preform tortue argue that it wasn't evil because he was using it toward good ends and later pick up the saint template.
Torture's evil? Are you sure about this? ;)
You wouldn't believe how made I was when a guy in my group got to preform tortue argue that it wasn't evil because he was using it toward good ends and later pick up the saint template.
That's just the DM being lame then. I'm pretty strict when it comes to giving anyone that template, let alone some guy that's going to torture someone then play the "end justifies the means" card in hopes of still getting it.
He's lucky if I allow him to stay good after that in my campaigns, let alone allow him to take that template.
That's just the DM being lame then. I'm pretty strict when it comes to giving anyone that template, let alone some guy that's going to torture someone then play the "end justifies the means" card in hopes of still getting it.
He's lucky if I allow him to stay good after that in my campaigns, let alone allow him to take that template.
I know but people get away with stupid stuff in my group. I was thinking about making a campaign to challange thier concepts of good and evile by running an exalted campaign, but have them being manipulated by higher powers. Every good deed they preform results in greater evils rising in the world as a result. To make matters worse I was going to have higher authorities pressuring them to press on to do even greater good deeds rather than clean up the messes that resulted from thier adventures. Eventually the world was going to turn on them, and this is where the challange to be good really begins.
But then I thopught about how complcated that was and who I was dealing with, so I thought about what little I knew of DS and desided that it would be a much better place to start thier education. I expect most of them to go through several characters, all in the first session, before they get the idea that being stupid gets you killed.