Thoughts and comments welcome
Tarek Paragon
Hit Die: 1d10
Skills: The tarek paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at each Level: 2 +Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Tarek Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fearsome Visage, Stench
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Greater Ferocity, Natural Armor Increase
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Boost (Str +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tarek paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor.
Fearsome Visage (Ex): At 1st level, a tarek paragon's racial bonus on Intimidate checks increases to +5.
Stench (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a tarek paragon's natural oder becomes more pungent. When a tarek paragon is angry or frightened, he secretes an oily, musk-like chemical that nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. All living creatures (except tareks) within 30 feet of a tarek paragon must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC10+ the tarek paragon's Con modifier) or be sickened for 10 rounds. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same tarek paragon’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws
Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon does not die when reaching -10 hit points. Instead, The tarek paragon does not die until he reaches -15 hit points.
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon's natural armor bonus improves by 1.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a tarek paragon's Strength score increases by 2 points.
Enjoy
Gith Paragon
Hit Die: 1d6
Skills: The gith paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at each Level: 4+Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Gith Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Naturally Stealthy
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Leaping Strike
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Ability Boost (Dex +2)[/HTML]
[HTML]Level Powers Known
1st +1 level of existing manifesting class
2nd -
3rd +1 level of existing manifesting class[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Gith paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.
Powers Known: At 1st and 3rd levels, a gith paragon gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class he belonged to before he adding the level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, metapsionic or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of gith paragon to the level of whatever manifesting class the character has, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly.
If a character had more than one manifesting class before becoming a gith paragon, he must decide to which class he adds the new level of gith paragon for the purpose of determining power points per day, powers known, and manifester level.
If a gith paragon has no levels in a manifesting class, this class feature has no effect.
Naturally Stealthy (Ex): At 1st level, a gith paragon's racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks improves to +5.
Leaping Strike (Ex): At 2nd level, a gith paragon can use his natural affinity for jumping to greater effect. The gith paragon receives Spring Attack as a bonus feat. The gith paragon does not need the prerequisites normally required for this feat.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a gith paragon's Dexterity score increases by 2 points.
Either way I really like these, I'm going to have to encourage my players to start using them
I never looked at these much before, so I have to ask... are these paragon classes meant to be similar to racial substitution levels? For example, using your Thri-Kreen paragon class, would a 1st level Thri-Kreen with no other class levels be ECL 1?
Either way I really like these, I'm going to have to encourage my players to start using them
Yes and no. They can be taken anytime a character gains a level. Not just at specific levels like the substitution levels. They're pretty much min-classes in which a chacacter can multiclass into anytime they like.
A Thri-kreen with one level of Paragon would be ECL 4 (2 HD + 1 LA + 1 class level).
Also, just found this thread that looked interesting:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=630052
Tari Paragon
Hit Die: 1d6
Skills: The tari paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at each Level: 4+Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Tari Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Improved Darkvision (+30 ft.), No Light Sensitivity
2nd +1 +1 +3 +0 Pestilence, Save Bonus
3rd +2 +2 +3 +1 Ability Boost (Dex +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tari paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.
Improved Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level, a tari paragon's darkvision range increases by 30 feet
No Light Sensitivity: A tari paragon loses his race's light sensitivity at 1st level.
Pestilence (Ex): At 2nd level, a tari paragon's tari fever deals 1 additional point of Constitution damage.
Save Bonus: A 2nd-level tari paragon's racial bonus on Reflex saves and saves against poison effects increases by 1.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a tari paragon's Dexterity score increases by 2 points.
Thanks for the clarifications
Also, just found this thread that looked interesting:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=630052
I was going to give the gith paragon a Gith Linage ability that tied to them being descended from githyanki, but not everyone likes or argees with the idea of them being related.
I would make on suggestion for the Tarek, though, if that's OK. While the Stench ability is interesting, I was hoping to see something that further develops their Ferocity ability. Maybe they could be allowed to extend their "dying" range to equal their Con score (like in Arcana Evolved), making it -15 for the standard Tarek, or continue to fight for a number of rounds equal to their Con bonus once they reach -10. I dunno, just some ideas. Stench is fine, but Ferocity is more iconic for the Tarek, imho.
Add now, the Gith Paragon
Enjoy
Question: since Rogue is their favored class, why give them manifesting levels?
Good job, Sysane!
I'm already a big fan of your paragon classes (two of my players are using them at present) so it's really cool to see some more. These new ones are neat - nicely balanced and appropriate to the races concerned.
I would make on suggestion for the Tarek, though, if that's OK. While the Stench ability is interesting, I was hoping to see something that further develops their Ferocity ability. Maybe they could be allowed to extend their "dying" range to equal their Con score (like in Arcana Evolved), making it -15 for the standard Tarek, or continue to fight for a number of rounds equal to their Con bonus once they reach -10. I dunno, just some ideas. Stench is fine, but Ferocity is more iconic for the Tarek, imho.
I was thinking about ideas that would work off of the Ferocity ability. I even considered that particular rule from Arcana Evolved, but for whatever reason, talk myself out of it.
How about an ability that allows the Tarek to enter into a Rage once they are brought to 0 hp or less?
Question: since Rogue is their favored class, why give them manifesting levels?
There are three reasons. First, back in 2e the gith had minor psionic abilities which have since been removed (I can understand why). Second, in their ToA write-up tribes of gith are known to have psions amidst there numbers. So, that right there was reason to justify some manifester levels. Third, as I mentoned above, its beleived that the gith are related githyanki. Them being highly psionic I would imagine that the gith would have some aptitude in the Way.
How about an ability that allows the Tarek to enter into a Rage once they are brought to 0 hp or less?
That's cool too. You'd need to cover how that might interact with a Tarek who already has rage from some other source, but it could work.
That's cool too. You'd need to cover how that might interact with a Tarek who already has rage from some other source, but it could work.
If the tarek already has the ability to Rage I'd just say that it increases the amount of times the tarek can rage per day by 1. Nice and simple.
I still like the stench ability though. It fits with that whole musk oder thing they already have going on. What if I kept the stench ability and had the Rage ability replace the Ability Boost (+2 Str) at 3rd level? Not every 3rd level paragon ability has to be a stat increase as shown by the half-dragon paragon.
If the tarek already has the ability to Rage I'd just say that it increases the amount of times the tarek can rage per day by 1. Nice and simple.
Sounds good to me.
I still like the stench ability though. It fits with that whole musk oder thing they already have going on. What if I kept the stench ability and had the Rage ability replace the Ability Boost (+2 Str) at 3rd level? Not every 3rd level paragon ability has to be a stat increase as shown by the half-dragon paragon.
I'd say replacing Fearsome Visage with Stench is a better way to go. You're right in that you don't absolutely need to include a stat boost, but the Tarek is such a brute that it pretty much calls for one. Just my opinion, though. It could work just as well without the stat boost, but I wonder if a player might find the Intimidate bonus too narrow an effect to warrant taking that first level in the class...
, only +1 to one skill 
Most paragon classes for an ability like that gain a total of +4 to one or two skills. The Half-Orc which is the closest analog, gain a +4 to Intimidate from it's monsterous Mein ability at 1st level (and it gain the Divided Ancestry ability!). Now, I can understand why you might be heistant to add so much to a skill that already recieves a +4 bonus, but 1st of all: they are already going to be 2 ranks behind from their level adjustment, and secondly you don't have to necessarily give a skill boost. Maybe some other related ability would make sense. But, as it is right now there is basically zero appeal to the 1st level of the Tarek Paragon class.
Also, yah I agree that the stat boost could be replaced. Tareks already recieve a +4 bonus to both Strength and Con and so like the Half-Dragon could skip the gratutious further increase in stats. But, also like the Half-Dragon (and Drow) their level adjustment I think warrents some slightly better abilities from their paragon class. Right now its falling flat of the power level of even the normal paragon classes.
I'd say replacing Fearsome Visage with Stench is a better way to go. You're right in that you don't absolutely need to include a stat boost, but the Tarek is such a brute that it pretty much calls for one. Just my opinion, though. It could work just as well without the stat boost, but I wonder if a player might find the Intimidate bonus too narrow an effect to warrant taking that first level in the class...
Not all 1st level paragon abilities are that great though. Some tend to be on the weak end of the spectrum. I hear what your saying though. I'll take another read through the other paragons and see if I can justify dumping Fearsome Visage for stench and either replace it with Stench. I also may use the Greater Ferocity mechanic instead of Rage as well.
Alright, due to pulic demand (Sage & Kam you ba$tards!), I've changed to tarek paragon. Please look to the original tarek paragon at the top of the thread for the changes.
Nice - looks much better now
.Yes, I could have made two different paragon classes for the dray in order to represent the 1st and 2nd generation varieties. However, I felt that one could equally capture the flavor of both types.
2nd Generation Dray Paragon
Hit Die: 1d6
Skills: 2nd generation dray paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Chr), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at each Level: 4+Int modifer
[HTML]Table: 2nd Generation Dray Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Improved Darkvision (+30 ft.), No Light Sensitivity
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Fire Resistance Increase, Natural Armor Increase
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Ability Boost (Int +2 Int)[/HTML]
[HTML]Level Spells per Day
1st +1 level in wizard or templar
2nd -
3rd +1 level in wizard or templar [/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: 2nd generation dray paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
Spells per Day: At 1st and 3rd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in wizard or templar. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic feats, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of 2nd generation dray paragon to his level in wizard or templar, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a 2nd generation dray paragon has no levels in wizard or templar, this class feature has no effect.
Improved Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's darkvision range increases by 30 feet
No Light Sensitivity: A 2nd generation dray paragon loses his race's light sensitivity at 1st level.
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's fire resistance increases to 15.
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's natural armor bonus improves by 1.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's Intelligence score increases by 2 points.
I plan on doing a Jozhal paragon which will be the last in this series.
Nothing for the nikaal?
.On way or the other, nice job Sysane!
Nothing for the nikaal?
On way or the other, nice job Sysane!
I plan on doing nikaal, belgoi, silt runner, and ssuran in the next batch at some point.
Jozhal Paragon
Hit Die: 1d6
Skills: The jozhal paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Magical Device (Int).
Skill Points at each Level: 4+Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Jozhal Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Improved Psi-Like Abilities
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Sense Magic, Skill Bonus
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Ability Boost (Dex +2)[/HTML]
[HTML]Level Spells per Day
1st -
2nd +1 level of cleric
3rd +1 level of cleric [/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Jozhal paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.
Spells per Day: At 2nd and 3rd level, a jozhal paragon gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in cleric. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic feats, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of jozhal paragon to her level in cleric, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a jozhal paragon has no levels in wizard, this class feature has no effect.
Improved Psi-Like Abilities: At 1st level, a jozhal paragon gains one additional daily use of each of his innate psi-like abilities.
Sense Magic (Su): At 2nd level, a jozhal paragon can detect magic as the spell (caster level 6th) once per day.
Skill Bonus (Ex): A 2nd-level jozhal paragon's racial bonus on Hide and Use Magical Device checks improves to +5.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a jozhal paragon's Dexterity increases by 2 points.
Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon does not die when reaching -10 hit points. Instead, a tarek paragon can continue to fight once he reaches -10 plus a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier before he is dead.
I forsee a problem here. Let's say you got 3 rounds to go since you have a +3 modifier from your Con, well anything can happen during those rounds, including taking 10 to 50+ points of damage...are you still gonna live until the end of your 3 rounds?
I suggest altering the text as follows, in bold:
Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon does not die when reaching -10 hit points. Instead, a tarek paragon can continue to fight until he reaches [insert number of hps higher than -10, let's say between -15 and -20] or a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier - which ever comes first - before he is dead.
I was going to give the gith paragon a Gith Linage ability that tied to them being descended from githyanki, but not everyone likes or argees with the idea of them being related.
I immensely appreciate this, Sysane.
I suggest altering the text as follows, in bold:
Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon does not die when reaching -10 hit points. Instead, a tarek paragon can continue to fight until he reaches [insert number of hps higher than -10, let's say between -15 and -20] or a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier - which ever comes first - before he is dead.
I'm also curious how this interacts with healing. Suppose that the Tarek gets healed during the rounds he remains "alive." Does he still die at the end of his given number of rounds?
I forsee a problem here. Let's say you got 3 rounds to go since you have a +3 modifier from your Con, well anything can happen during those rounds, including taking 10 to 50+ points of damage...are you still gonna live until the end of your 3 rounds?
I suggest altering the text as follows, in bold:
Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 2nd level, a tarek paragon does not die when reaching -10 hit points. Instead, a tarek paragon can continue to fight until he reaches [insert number of hps higher than -10, let's say between -15 and -20] or a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier - which ever comes first - before he is dead.
Hmmmm, very good point. The way I want it to work is that the tarek paragon dies once he reaches -10 + his Con modifier in hit points. I'm not entirely sure how to word that game mechanics wise.
Your Johazl paragon is listed as gaining Cleric caster levels in the chart and wizard in the text. I assume wizard was intended.
Actually, its cleric. Thats a Johazls favored class (oddly enough). Good catch though
Hmmmm, very good point. The way I want it to work is that the tarek paragon dies once he reaches -10 + his Con modifier in hit points. I'm not entirely sure how to word that game mechanics wise.
I would do something along these lines:
When the tarek paragon reaches -10 hit points, he immediately gains a number of bonus hit points equal to his constitution modifier. These hit points last [some length of time which is up to you].
This covers what you're going for without changing the "You die at -10" mechanic. It also allows the tarek to be healed during that time. Also because of the bonus HP mechanics, it won't suddenly kill the paragon when the duration is up if he was healed a little and then damaged again.
The length of time is going to be an important factor in how this ability can be used. If the bonus HP last a day, it's going to be pretty easy to avoid dying. If they only last a few rounds it's going to take a cleric being nearby, or a handy potion fruit to save him.
[edit] Hmm I think you'd also have to place a limit on how often he can gain these bonus HPs. Like he only gets them the first time he goes to -10 a day or something similar.
Of course you could just say something like "The tarek paragon does not die until he reaches -(10+con mod) hit points." That'd be pretty simple and straight-forward.
I would do something along these lines:
Of course you could just say something like "The tarek paragon does not die until he reaches -(10+con mod) hit points." That'd be pretty simple and straight-forward.
I think I would opt for this. Its pretty simple and not to messy.
I think I would opt for this. Its pretty simple and not to messy.
I too prefer the idea of still dying at -10, only that the first time the tarek reaches that number he finds a second wind (is healed of a few hps equal to his Con modifier) until he reaches -10 again.
I too prefer the idea of still dying at -10, only that the first time the tarek reaches that number he finds a second wind (is healed of a few hps equal to his Con modifier) until he reaches -10 again.
I'm not a fan of them "healing" though. It seems minor, but I feel that it may leave the door open for it to be abused in some way. How exactly, I don't know. I just feel more comfortable with them being able to go into negatives past -10 than them gaining a short lived version of fast healing.
I too prefer the idea of still dying at -10, only that the first time the tarek reaches that number he finds a second wind (is healed of a few hps equal to his Con modifier) until he reaches -10 again.
I agree with Sysane in this- any healing, IIRC, that occures when one is at negative hit points, automatially puts the one dying at 0 or 1 hp, regardless of if they were at -1 or -9.
I agree with Sysane in this- any healing, IIRC, that occures when one is at negative hit points, automatially puts the one dying at 0 or 1 hp, regardless of if they were at -1 or -9.
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. What you may be thinking of is that any healing while you are in negative hit points automatically stabilizes you. But for Tareks that shouldn't be an issue anyway.
I was going to give the gith paragon a Gith Linage ability that tied to them being descended from githyanki, but not everyone likes or argees with the idea of them being related.
That's ok, those that don't agree are nothing more but a bunch of Communists anyways!
:bounce:
1st Generation Dray Paragon
Hit Die: 1d8
Skills: 1st generation dray paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Relgion] (Int), Profession (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at each Level: 2+Int modifer
[HTML]Table: 1st Generation Dray Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Gruesome Countenance, Improved Darkvision (+30 ft.), No Light Sensitivity
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fire Resistance Increase, Natural Armor Increase
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Boost (Str +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency:1st generation dray paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and medium armor.
Gruesome Countenance (Ex): 1st generation dray paragons are more malformed and disfigured than most of their kind, resulting in a +6 racial bonus on intimidate checks against non-dray.
Improved Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level, a 1st generation dray paragon's darkvision range increases by 30 feet
No Light Sensitivity: A 1st generation dray paragon loses his race's light sensitivity at 1st level.
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 1st generation dray paragon's fire resistance increases to 15.
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 1st generation dray paragon's natural armor bonus improves by 1.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a 1st generation dray paragon's Strength score increases by 2 points.
Alright. I've had second thoughs on keeping both 1st and 2nd gen dray under the same paragon. I've changed the original dray paragon post to reflect the 1st gen dray and have come up with this for 2nd gen dray.
Could it be that you mixed 1st and 2nd generation dray? IRRC the 2nd generation were the smart ones and the 1st the freaks.
Could it be that you mixed 1st and 2nd generation dray? IRRC the 2nd generation were the smart ones and the 1st the freaks.
Doh! Your right. Thats what I get for working on this at work. I'll make the changes. Good catch Bengel
Question: since Rogue is their favored class, why give them manifesting levels?
There are three reasons. First, back in 2e the gith had minor psionic abilities which have since been removed (I can understand why). Second, in their ToA write-up tribes of gith are known to have psions amidst there numbers. So, that right there was reason to justify some manifester levels. Third, as I mentoned above, its beleived that the gith are related githyanki. Them being highly psionic I would imagine that the gith would have some aptitude in the Way.
Before Complete Psionic came out, the Mind's Eye's Psychic Rouge has been the gith's favoured class in my game. Now with the Complete Psionics I'm going to change it to Lurk, because I think this is the perfect match for them. Unfortunatelly both classes aren't OGC, so athas.org won't use these classes for favoured classes.
Doh! Your right. Thats what I get for working on this at work. I'll make the changes. Good catch Bengel
happens! ;)I was going to give the gith paragon a Gith Linage ability that tied to them being descended from githyanki, but not everyone likes or argees with the idea of them being related.
But Canon is on your side in that regard. I will now quote from the Black Spine Adventure , Adventure Book Two, Page Four -
The githzerai were using a dangerous, experimental "psionic devastator
"against the githyanki. The devastator was a psionic
bomb which sent out tremendous psi-waves that blasted
the minds of psionically attuned creatures, and in most
of Athas it reduced the githyanki to near idiocy. The
descendants of these psi-blasted githyanki are. of
course, the modern-day gith.
Let the nay-sayers be silent and eat Kenku!
And, furthermore -
Scholars who hear this story may wonder whether these
psionic devastators might have something to do with the
development of psionics in Athas. Could the psi-waves
have jarred non-psionic people and creatures. releasing
deeply buried psionic talents? Could the psi-waves have
wiped out the psionic parasites that usually plague
psionic sensitives, thereby paving the way for the development
of psionics in many more creatures? Or is this just
a coincidence? No one knows for sure.
So, not only is it important that the Gith legacy be acknowledged, it may well be connected to the shaping of Athas as we know it.
:evillaughIf I were aksed, as an official athas.org representative, to come up with a racial paragon class for the gith, I would not link its abilities to the githyanki. Two reasons: the class can reflect what a paragon gith is without using githyanki as a crutch, and I'm prefectly aware that people don't all like the githyanki connection.
I'm not the author of those classes though, why earlier I thanked Sysane for his consideration in pulling the githyanki from the equation.
Vortexa, and if Elminster helped Rajaat invent magic, in the canon, would you be saying this? Some of the canon is terrible, and some of us hates those parts of it with a passion, and hopefuly there are enough of us to make people reconsider mentionning Elminster....
I love the githyanki connection. Those guys are super-cool. I can't wait to run the Black Spine adventure.
If I were aksed, as an official athas.org representative, to come up with a racial paragon class for the gith, I would not link its abilities to the githyanki. Two reasons: the class can reflect what a paragon gith is without using githyanki as a crutch, and I'm prefectly aware that people don't all like the githyanki connection.
There is actually a third, more relevant reason that official athas.org material cannot incorporate the githyanki, which is that the githyanki aren't open content, thus making them out of bounds. The same goes for githzerai, mind flayers, beholders, yuan-ti, slaadi and probably a couple of others that I am forgetting.
Vortexa, and if Elminster helped Rajaat invent magic, in the canon, would you be saying this?
Not to be argumentative, as I respect your standpoint and opinion, Pennarin, but I would say that very thing, if it were canon. (For the record, I am a big Canon stickler, and for further clarification, I hold the game material as having more weight than the novels)
As Kamelion so kindly pointed out, Githyanki are not OGC, but given their stated and known presence in ancient Athasian history, I don't think it would be too hard to refer to them as an "Extraplanar ancestor species" of the Gith, and base the Gith paragon class on them nonetheless, if one chose to do so.
Not to be argumentative, as I respect your standpoint and opinion, Pennarin, but I would say that very thing, if it were canon.
Wow, then I have...no ground in common with you on that element, Vortexa. I trully can't say I understand. Sorry. Elminster has no place in DS, no matter what a TSR writer could have said if it had actually been the case. Some parts of canon are stupid or a bad move, no matter how you look at them.
Even the crappy elements of canon (and no, githyanki on athas are not necessarily crappy, but IMO are an attempt at mixing non-DS elements into DS by TSR, which they should never have done in the first place) have to be recognized, somehow, by the athas.org team if a book they create ever crosses path with those elements. AFAIK the team has made efforts so that those paths never cross. The sole planar connection I know of is in DA III, and it needed to be there because its canon that cannot be sidestepped, i.e. the planar mirror and Dregoth's search for godhood on other planes of existence, which are pillars of the setting.
My philosophy is to let the contested points of canonicity alone as much as possible, where ever possible. Methvezem did as such with the fluff for his athasian psurlon, taking great pains to use language that would make the most people, with many different preferences, happy. As such, I thought that Sysane's focus of the gith abilities on the gith and not on his githyanki ancestors was one way of doing this: it provides us with a paragon gith (there could be a dozen ways of doing a paragon gith, the githyanki conenction being only one of them) that is still true to the actual gith, but which just makes no mention of his ancestors.
I personaly don't care if weird stuff is implemented in someone's campaign, like bringing in spelljammer stuff on athas, its all cool. What I care about is making sure that the bad parts of canon are not reinforced with new official material. I have no official say on this, and in fact must email the athas.org authors if I want to be heard on the subject, just like everyone else.
That's all my opinion.
Elminster has no place in DS, no matter what a TSR writer could have said if it had actually been the case.
Ooops, guess you didn't see this in my long speech. Hehe, sorry for typing so much.
I brought up a hypotetical situation in which some crummy TSR writer, unable to come up with a campaign-specific explanation for things, decided to use Elminster as an explanation for how Rajaat discovered magic.
I was using that clearly idiotic decision to better define what I dubbed a "bad move" in canon, so as to support what I said here: Some parts of canon are stupid or a bad move, no matter how you look at them.
A bit clearer? :D Heh, I talk too much (or type, for that matter). Nyt could tell you about it.
I brought up a hypotetical situation in which some crummy TSR writer, unable to come up with a campaign-specific explanation for things, decided to use Elminster as an explanation for how Rajaat discovered magic.
Heh heh, you mean like when Jemorille the Rilmani claims in a Planescape product to have taught magic to Rajaat? And further notes that Rajaat was a halfling?
:D
Heh heh, you mean like when Jemorille the Rilmani claims in a Planescape product to have taught magic to Rajaat? And further notes that Rajaat was a halfling?
:D
Now if that were actually in a DS book, it would make for the perfect definition of crumminess.
A bit clearer? :D Heh, I talk too much (or type, for that matter). Nyt could tell you about it.
That's ok, I still love you even if you are a Communist.
(Yes, I know. I'm running an inside joke that even Penn probably doesn't know about into the ground. It's at least six feet under at this point. :D )
Its just it would be nice if a dray could take all levels in both classes without any redundant abilities.
But I too like that the githyanki connection was to the githyanki themselves and not to anything extraplanar, why the designers did not create the connection between athas and all githyanki but between athas and a lost tribe of githyanki. A smart move by them, in all fairness.
Sysane, about the 2nd generation dray, did you browse the dray templar class in Appendix I to see if its compatible? i.e. are some of your paragon abilities already bestowed by the PrC?
Its just it would be nice if a dray could take all levels in both classes without any redundant abilities.
Not that I'm aware of. Last time I looked the Templar of the Scale didn't offer increased darkvision, nat armor, or fire resistance. I'll give it a once over again though
Edit: Okay, I'm wrong about the increased fire resistance, but I hardly feel thats a reason to replace it with a new ability. All I need to do is reword so that it stacks with other abilities that grant fire resistance. How about this:
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon adds 5 points to his fire resistance.
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon adds 5 points to his fire resistance.
IMHO, this sounds better:
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's resistance to fire increases by 5.
IMHO, this sounds better:
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon's resistance to increases by 5.
Yeah, I had it written that way originally but thought that it sound funny as well.
Poll time! Which one sounds better?
Yeah, I had it written that way originally but thought that it sound funny as well.
Poll time! Which one sounds better?
You know my vote, but I actually just wanted to say, they I've edited my post while you were replying. It's ...restisance to fire....otherwhise it realy would sound funny.
Fire Resistance Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, a 2nd generation dray paragon gains a +5 racial bonus to resistance to fire.
Do Racial Paragons exist for the Mul, Half-Giant, and the rest of the 'core' DS player races (The ones from the athas.org pdf?)
Check the link under my signature under one of my posts.