PHB II - Perfect for Athas! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

PHB II - Perfect for Athas!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
terminus_vortexa
May 13, 2006 13:50:42 I've been looking throught the PHB II and made an interesting discovery - the Knight class, with a few thematic changes, would be absolutely perfect as the Gladiator class from Dark Sun. The Beguiler would make a pretty cool addition as a variant wizard as well. The whole concept of casting a spell that automatically bypasses SR if the target is denied their DEX bonus to AC rocks. MAkes those SKs a little less scary! Especially since at later levels you can use Bluff to feint and then get them with the spell!And the Duskblade is the best Arcane answer to the Psychic Warrior Concept that I've seen yet. I may even reverse-engineer a new Psychic Warrior type class from it to include in my campaign, because being able to do stuff like make a full attack action while simultaneously casting/manifesting a touch spell or power that then affects EVERY TARGET YOU STRUCK IN THAT ATTACK sequence is just freakin magnificent!
#2
radnovius
May 13, 2006 14:59:27 I haven't picked up the PHB2 yet but it sounds interesting. In my own campaign world I'm developing an "Arcane Warrior" who could exercise a full attack action while simultaneously casting/manifesting a touch spell, but it required a weapon made from a special magic-conducting metal. The arcane portion is sorcerer-like and the spell list is limitted to those types of spells which would aid in battle. I'm not sure that an arcane spell flinging warrior class really fits into Dark Sun well though.
#3
greyorm
May 13, 2006 16:19:35
...an arcane spell flinging warrior class...

What else would you call a Champion?
(Admitedly, that is the only place it would really fit.)
#4
kalthandrix
May 14, 2006 5:36:43 Sound a bit like a blade singer
#5
terminus_vortexa
May 14, 2006 11:25:34 The Duskblade actually puts the Bladesinger class into forgotten memory. It surpasses it in every way. And, another cool thing about it is that if you multiclass with a single level of Bard, once you can cast 4th level spells, (around level 14 ), you can then take the Sublime Chord PrC from Complete Arcane, and by 23rd level you have the ability to cast 9th level spells. Then you just finish up the original 20 levels of the class, and you end up with big selection of lv 1-3 & 6 spells, something on the order of 14 lv 4-5 spells, and a small selection of lv 7-9 spells. We're talking about a seriously brutal character concept, that, themed correctly, could fit into any game, especially Dark Sun, where only the strong survive!
#6
terminus_vortexa
May 14, 2006 11:30:08 And another cool thing in PHB II, the Retraining/Rebuilding rules. It provided a good explanation for how Rajaat could take a bunch of top-shelf psionicists and teach them defiling, without huge gaps between caster/manifester level and character level. They simply could have taken two levels of Defiler and then undertaken Character Rebuilding type quests and traded levels in their manifesting class for levels in Cerebremancer (or Mind Mage, if you allow this PrC, I use a modified version). Same thing goes for preparation for any Advanced Being type. PHB II has presented us with a great working toolset for solving the issue of caster/manifester level vs. character level disparity.And , this is a stretch, but you could conceivably trade levels in Dragon for Avangion, as well.
#7
ruhl-than_sage
May 14, 2006 14:08:15 After reading through the knight, I have to say I don't really see how they make a good gladiator, Terminus
#8
terminus_vortexa
May 14, 2006 14:57:50 I thought the knight would make a good gladiator because of the abiltiy to "call out" an opponent like how Fighting Challenge grants you a level-based benefit to attack rolls , damage rolls and will saves. So you can hit harder, more accurately and are harder to intimidate. Test of Mettle is great for team arena combat because you can force the more powerful opponents to focus their attention on you, so maybe if you have a rogue on your side you can set him up for a sneak attack (or BACKSTAB as we long-time players once called it). Call to Battle lets you help restore the nerve of an intimidated ally, which can mean life or death in an arena setting. And a decent level Knight (or if renamed, Gladiator) can expend uses of Knight's Challenge to keep fighting even after they are lower than -10 hit points. I mean, a valuable gladiator is probably going to recieve healing magic after a battle. And, just for example, a 14th level gladiator with a 16 CHA score can keep fighting for 10 FULL ROUNDS after he reaches -10 hit points, if he hasn't spent up all his uses of Knight's Challenge. To sum it all up, the Knight makes a supreme gladiator because of his ability to hit hard, make his opponents face him, shake up his foes mentally, rally his allies, and keep fighting when technically he should have been dead ten times over. I'm definetely working on converting the fluff and the names of the abilities, because in my DS campaign, I finally have a worthy gladiator class.
#9
bengeldorn
May 14, 2006 16:17:19 Unfortunatelly the knight doesn't gain any flanking bonuses, can't strike flat-footed opponents, or deal leathel damage to a helpless foe. His Knight's Challange ability comes with a price, the Knight's Code. Both are very close connected (see penalty for dishonoring the knight's code). In addition, some other abilities just don't fit that good to a gladiator (Mounted Combat, Shield Ally).
I'm not saying, there are no abilities that would fit for a gladiator — Shield Block as Armor Optimization would be a very good mechanic, Armor Mastery (only for light and medium armors) would also be fine — but the class itself wouldn't be a good gladiator, IMHO.

Besides that, I prefer only one arcane casting class — the wizard, that's why I generally don't take a look at other arcane casting classes for my Dark Sun campaign.

I will surly take some feats to my "available feats for Dark Sun"-compilation, maybe even some spells, but the four classes presented in the PHBII won't be seen in my DS campaign.
#10
ruhl-than_sage
May 14, 2006 16:49:17 Hmmm... there are some interesting things there that could work for gladiator's, I'll give you that much.
#11
jackmojo
May 15, 2006 16:51:47 Combat focus seems like it would work well for gladiators too (plus make them more thoughtful then their barbarian counterparts, who otherwise seem to make superior gladiators)

Jack
#12
jon_oracle_of_athas
May 16, 2006 16:02:19 I have yet to see PHB II, but those rebuilding rules sound like something templars of dead sorcerer-kings would look into.
#13
Sysane
May 16, 2006 18:22:18 I'd say the biggest impact PHB II will have for DS is that it will put to bed the argument about allowing elemental clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells rather than casting spontaneous healing.
#14
terminus_vortexa
May 16, 2006 21:47:10 Good call, Sysane. I think spontaneous domain casting is definetely up there on the list of useful things from PHB II.
#15
mystictheurge
May 16, 2006 22:20:26
Good call, Sysane. I think spontaneous domain casting is definetely up there on the list of useful things from PHB II.

Doesn't CD have a Spontaneous Domain feat that lets you spontaneously cast spells from one of your chosen domains?
#16
kalthandrix
May 17, 2006 8:42:15 They stole the idea of spontaniously casting domain spells from me- I have been using that in my campaign for over a year now!

I do not have the PHII yet, but it is on my list of things to get- along with Hordes of the Abyss- which looks to be pretty cool too.
#17
Sysane
May 17, 2006 9:02:58 The way the mechanic works in PB II is that a cleric can choose to spontaneously cast domain spells from ONE domain rather than healing spells. Additionally, the cleric can now memorize healing spells in place of the bonus domain spell in that one domain.
#18
ruhl-than_sage
May 17, 2006 17:03:24 So, suddenly its a good idea when it comes from an official source

It's not as if they came up with anything original there.
#19
Sysane
May 17, 2006 17:21:01 Yeah, I realize that, but it's been debated several times in multiple threads and more than once debunked as being unbalanced. It being in an offical WotC source should validate that its a sound mechanic and that it would fit in DS as a core mechanic for the elemental cleric.
#20
ruhl-than_sage
May 17, 2006 17:52:42
Yeah, I realize that, but it's been debated several times in multiple threads and more than once debunked as being unbalanced. It being in an offical WotC source should validate that its a sound mechanic and that it would fit in DS as a core mechanic for the elemental cleric.

Well, while I agree that it is balanced... I don't agree with the logic that you are using to support it being balanced. WotC are the ones who brought us the Practiced Manifester Feat, that has no consideration of the differences between magic and psionics, in an official book. And the Shock Trooper tactical feat. Just because it's official doesn't mean it's balanced.
#21
kalthandrix
May 17, 2006 18:47:53 Yep!

And they stole my idea- Nyt, what do you use to get them out of your head?
#22
Sysane
May 17, 2006 19:08:34
Well, while I agree that it is balanced... I don't agree with the logic that you are using to support it being balanced. WotC are the ones who brought us the Practiced Manifester Feat, that has no consideration of the differences between magic and psionics, in an official book. And the Shock Trooper tactical feat. Just because it's official doesn't mean it's balanced.

Maybe balanced was the wrong choice of words. What I meant to convey was that it being in an offical WotC release might turn the heads of some people who otherwise were unsure whether it would be a good mechanic for DS clerics to have or not. If memory serves me correctly, I think Flip listed off reasons in an old thread why athas.org didn't want to go the spontaneous domain spell route due to preceived balance concerns.

I don't know why your offended in that the PHB II may open the door for some people to consider on adopting the idea offically for DS. Lots of DMs and players alike don't consider variations to exsiting rules unless its in some documented source. Its fact that a lot of people think in that way. Does that make it right or wrong? Thats not for me to judge. I personally have always thought that spontaneous domain spells for DS clerics was a great idea and glad that the PHB II has shed some light on to its offical inclusion to the game of D&D.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 terminus_vortexa May 13, 2006 13:50:42	I've been looking throught the PHB II and made an interesting discovery - the Knight class, with a few thematic changes, would be absolutely perfect as the Gladiator class from Dark Sun. The Beguiler would make a pretty cool addition as a variant wizard as well. The whole concept of casting a spell that automatically bypasses SR if the target is denied their DEX bonus to AC rocks. MAkes those SKs a little less scary! Especially since at later levels you can use Bluff to feint and then get them with the spell!And the Duskblade is the best Arcane answer to the Psychic Warrior Concept that I've seen yet. I may even reverse-engineer a new Psychic Warrior type class from it to include in my campaign, because being able to do stuff like make a full attack action while simultaneously casting/manifesting a touch spell or power that then affects EVERY TARGET YOU STRUCK IN THAT ATTACK sequence is just freakin magnificent!
#2 radnovius May 13, 2006 14:59:27	I haven't picked up the PHB2 yet but it sounds interesting. In my own campaign world I'm developing an "Arcane Warrior" who could exercise a full attack action while simultaneously casting/manifesting a touch spell, but it required a weapon made from a special magic-conducting metal. The arcane portion is sorcerer-like and the spell list is limitted to those types of spells which would aid in battle. I'm not sure that an arcane spell flinging warrior class really fits into Dark Sun well though.
#3 greyorm May 13, 2006 16:19:35	...an arcane spell flinging warrior class... What else would you call a Champion? (Admitedly, that is the only place it would really fit.)
#4 kalthandrix May 14, 2006 5:36:43	Sound a bit like a blade singer
#5 terminus_vortexa May 14, 2006 11:25:34	The Duskblade actually puts the Bladesinger class into forgotten memory. It surpasses it in every way. And, another cool thing about it is that if you multiclass with a single level of Bard, once you can cast 4th level spells, (around level 14 ), you can then take the Sublime Chord PrC from Complete Arcane, and by 23rd level you have the ability to cast 9th level spells. Then you just finish up the original 20 levels of the class, and you end up with big selection of lv 1-3 & 6 spells, something on the order of 14 lv 4-5 spells, and a small selection of lv 7-9 spells. We're talking about a seriously brutal character concept, that, themed correctly, could fit into any game, especially Dark Sun, where only the strong survive!
#6 terminus_vortexa May 14, 2006 11:30:08	And another cool thing in PHB II, the Retraining/Rebuilding rules. It provided a good explanation for how Rajaat could take a bunch of top-shelf psionicists and teach them defiling, without huge gaps between caster/manifester level and character level. They simply could have taken two levels of Defiler and then undertaken Character Rebuilding type quests and traded levels in their manifesting class for levels in Cerebremancer (or Mind Mage, if you allow this PrC, I use a modified version). Same thing goes for preparation for any Advanced Being type. PHB II has presented us with a great working toolset for solving the issue of caster/manifester level vs. character level disparity.And , this is a stretch, but you could conceivably trade levels in Dragon for Avangion, as well.
#7 ruhl-than_sage May 14, 2006 14:08:15	After reading through the knight, I have to say I don't really see how they make a good gladiator, Terminus
#8 terminus_vortexa May 14, 2006 14:57:50	I thought the knight would make a good gladiator because of the abiltiy to "call out" an opponent like how Fighting Challenge grants you a level-based benefit to attack rolls , damage rolls and will saves. So you can hit harder, more accurately and are harder to intimidate. Test of Mettle is great for team arena combat because you can force the more powerful opponents to focus their attention on you, so maybe if you have a rogue on your side you can set him up for a sneak attack (or BACKSTAB as we long-time players once called it). Call to Battle lets you help restore the nerve of an intimidated ally, which can mean life or death in an arena setting. And a decent level Knight (or if renamed, Gladiator) can expend uses of Knight's Challenge to keep fighting even after they are lower than -10 hit points. I mean, a valuable gladiator is probably going to recieve healing magic after a battle. And, just for example, a 14th level gladiator with a 16 CHA score can keep fighting for 10 FULL ROUNDS after he reaches -10 hit points, if he hasn't spent up all his uses of Knight's Challenge. To sum it all up, the Knight makes a supreme gladiator because of his ability to hit hard, make his opponents face him, shake up his foes mentally, rally his allies, and keep fighting when technically he should have been dead ten times over. I'm definetely working on converting the fluff and the names of the abilities, because in my DS campaign, I finally have a worthy gladiator class.
#9 bengeldorn May 14, 2006 16:17:19	Unfortunatelly the knight doesn't gain any flanking bonuses, can't strike flat-footed opponents, or deal leathel damage to a helpless foe. His Knight's Challange ability comes with a price, the Knight's Code. Both are very close connected (see penalty for dishonoring the knight's code). In addition, some other abilities just don't fit that good to a gladiator (Mounted Combat, Shield Ally). I'm not saying, there are no abilities that would fit for a gladiator — Shield Block as Armor Optimization would be a very good mechanic, Armor Mastery (only for light and medium armors) would also be fine — but the class itself wouldn't be a good gladiator, IMHO. Besides that, I prefer only one arcane casting class — the wizard, that's why I generally don't take a look at other arcane casting classes for my Dark Sun campaign. I will surly take some feats to my "available feats for Dark Sun"-compilation, maybe even some spells, but the four classes presented in the PHBII won't be seen in my DS campaign.
#10 ruhl-than_sage May 14, 2006 16:49:17	Hmmm... there are some interesting things there that could work for gladiator's, I'll give you that much.
#11 jackmojo May 15, 2006 16:51:47	Combat focus seems like it would work well for gladiators too (plus make them more thoughtful then their barbarian counterparts, who otherwise seem to make superior gladiators) Jack
#12 jon_oracle_of_athas May 16, 2006 16:02:19	I have yet to see PHB II, but those rebuilding rules sound like something templars of dead sorcerer-kings would look into.
#13 Sysane May 16, 2006 18:22:18	I'd say the biggest impact PHB II will have for DS is that it will put to bed the argument about allowing elemental clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells rather than casting spontaneous healing.
#14 terminus_vortexa May 16, 2006 21:47:10	Good call, Sysane. I think spontaneous domain casting is definetely up there on the list of useful things from PHB II.
#15 mystictheurge May 16, 2006 22:20:26	Good call, Sysane. I think spontaneous domain casting is definetely up there on the list of useful things from PHB II. Doesn't CD have a Spontaneous Domain feat that lets you spontaneously cast spells from one of your chosen domains?
#16 kalthandrix May 17, 2006 8:42:15	They stole the idea of spontaniously casting domain spells from me- I have been using that in my campaign for over a year now! I do not have the PHII yet, but it is on my list of things to get- along with Hordes of the Abyss- which looks to be pretty cool too.
#17 Sysane May 17, 2006 9:02:58	The way the mechanic works in PB II is that a cleric can choose to spontaneously cast domain spells from ONE domain rather than healing spells. Additionally, the cleric can now memorize healing spells in place of the bonus domain spell in that one domain.
#18 ruhl-than_sage May 17, 2006 17:03:24	So, suddenly its a good idea when it comes from an official source It's not as if they came up with anything original there.
#19 Sysane May 17, 2006 17:21:01	Yeah, I realize that, but it's been debated several times in multiple threads and more than once debunked as being unbalanced. It being in an offical WotC source should validate that its a sound mechanic and that it would fit in DS as a core mechanic for the elemental cleric.
#20 ruhl-than_sage May 17, 2006 17:52:42	Yeah, I realize that, but it's been debated several times in multiple threads and more than once debunked as being unbalanced. It being in an offical WotC source should validate that its a sound mechanic and that it would fit in DS as a core mechanic for the elemental cleric. Well, while I agree that it is balanced... I don't agree with the logic that you are using to support it being balanced. WotC are the ones who brought us the Practiced Manifester Feat, that has no consideration of the differences between magic and psionics, in an official book. And the Shock Trooper tactical feat. Just because it's official doesn't mean it's balanced.
#21 kalthandrix May 17, 2006 18:47:53	Yep! And they stole my idea- Nyt, what do you use to get them out of your head?
#22 Sysane May 17, 2006 19:08:34	Well, while I agree that it is balanced... I don't agree with the logic that you are using to support it being balanced. WotC are the ones who brought us the Practiced Manifester Feat, that has no consideration of the differences between magic and psionics, in an official book. And the Shock Trooper tactical feat. Just because it's official doesn't mean it's balanced. Maybe balanced was the wrong choice of words. What I meant to convey was that it being in an offical WotC release might turn the heads of some people who otherwise were unsure whether it would be a good mechanic for DS clerics to have or not. If memory serves me correctly, I think Flip listed off reasons in an old thread why athas.org didn't want to go the spontaneous domain spell route due to preceived balance concerns. I don't know why your offended in that the PHB II may open the door for some people to consider on adopting the idea offically for DS. Lots of DMs and players alike don't consider variations to exsiting rules unless its in some documented source. Its fact that a lot of people think in that way. Does that make it right or wrong? Thats not for me to judge. I personally have always thought that spontaneous domain spells for DS clerics was a great idea and glad that the PHB II has shed some light on to its offical inclusion to the game of D&D.