I wrote this yesterday and have to admit that for my first pass at it I really like it as is, but I am sure there are a few things that could be improved upon, so let me know what you all think.
Knight of the Cleansing
“Follow me! We fight for a true and righteous cause that leads to the Age when humans rule all!”-Baeron Gnoll-Slayer, Knight of the Cleansing.
During the genocidal battles known collectively as the Cleansing Wars, thousands of humans flocked to the standards of Rajaat the War-Bringer and his Champions. As the ranks of the armies grew and the battles raged on against the non-human Rebirth races, there emerged from the battle hardened ranks of the human hordes men and women who gloried in the task of the Cleansing. These warriors not only had the ability to lead troops into battle, but they had also taken the message of the War-Bringer into their very being and swore their lives to removing all non-humans from the face of Athas. It was then that the Knights of the Cleansing were born.
Knights of the cleansing are relentless in the pursuit of the genocidal warfare started by Rajaat and his Champions. They give no quarter and expect none from their foes. The Knights of the cleansing were believed to be an extinct order for the past few millennia, but it has been rumored that shortly after the first of the Tyr-storms began to appear, these fearsome warriors once again land and they gather forces to take up this ancient battle once again- all under the direction of an unknown force.
The most common classes found within the knight’s ranks are fighters and rangers who have suffered a grievous loss at the hands of a non-human race.
Hit Dice: d10
Requirements
Race: Human
Base Attack Bonus: +9
Feat: Improved Critical, Leadership, Power Attack
Alignment: Any evil
Special: Must be accepted into the Knights of the Cleansing by another knight.
Special: Must have suffered some kind of violence or loss due to the actions of a non-human race.
From first glace though, I'm not to keen on the requirements. Leadership I agree with, but power attack and improved crit don't seem to fit. I'd think something like a knowledge rank requirement tied to knights speices enemy along with a skill focus in that knowledge would be more appropriate.
It's a pretty cool PrC, but I have some suggestions.
Change alignment to any lawful or evil. I could see a lawful neutral or even good character doing this because they think it is right.
Add yuan-ti to the favored enemy list. The snake people must die!
Make half-humans a bonus favored enemy. These beings are desecrations to mankind, and as such should be hated above all others in the eyes of all of the knights.
I'd make the speech have to last for at least 10 minutes. 1 minute would barely get any attention.
I'm not sure I would give them more than one favored enemy though. Everything I've read suggests that they really focused on one non-human race. Perhaps instead you could have them focus on one race, but give them lesser bonuses against all non-human enemies.
I agree about half-races. Tamar shows as much loathing for Rikus, as a half-dwarf, as she does for the full dwarves, going as far as threatening to kill Neeva before letting him "sully" her.
Favored Enemy - I'm with MysticTheurge on this one.
I'm not sure I would give them more than one favored enemy though. Everything I've read suggests that they really focused on one non-human race. Perhaps instead you could have them focus on one race, but give them lesser bonuses against all non-human enemies.
Additionally I'd remove Thri-kreen from the favored enemy list, and, possibly, the Nikaal as well. As both are seen as Blue Age races - the Nikaal, unofficially so, at least.
Detect Favored Enemy - IMO this is an ability far too powerful for a mere 2nd level knight. Your telling me, that at 2nd level, this guy's so familiar with the ways of his favored enemy, that merely by thinking about it, he can feel their presence....just doesn't work for me. This feels much more like an end of the road kind of ability, ie. either 9th or 10th level - with me leaning towards 10th.
Righteous Courage - the mechanics seem ok to me. However - and this is really just a minor nit-pick - the fluff for this ability, gained at 2nd level, already compares this guy to a super human. I'd tone down the "holy-cow, this awe-inspiring being of stupendous might and supreme ability" factor that seems to come with your personal brand of writing. :P
Incite Racial Superiority - I'd actually suggest toning down the bonuses, but making this an ability usable after, like, 1 round of 'speech'. In my mind, this could easily be an ability used in the middle of combat, used to incite his fellow soldiers to stand firm against the enemy - using nothing more than a "Stand Firm, men!!!!!" kind of expression.
Bane of Races - I'm inclined to suggest modelling this ability after a few of the PrCs in the FR book Faiths and Pantheons. As an example, the Silverstar PrC grants, at 3rd level, the Moon's Hand ability. With it, any heavy mace becomes a +1 shock heavy mace in her hands - letting go of it returns the weapon to its normal state. Plus, the ability increases to +2 shock heavy mace at 6th level, and, at 9th the silverstar gains the Greater Moon's Hand ability - which converts the weapon to a +2 shocking burst heavy mace.
As for these statements:
Make half-humans a bonus favored enemy. These beings are desecrations to mankind, and as such should be hated above all others in the eyes of all of the knights.
and...
I agree about half-races.
Who then goes on to add why he feels this way by saying...
Tamar shows as much loathing for Rikus, as a half-dwarf, as she does for the full dwarves, going as far as threatening to kill Neeva before letting him "sully" her.
...I do not agree, I think the approach you have goes further to stay true to the above example.
From first glace though, I'm not to keen on the requirements. Leadership I agree with, but power attack and improved crit don't seem to fit. I'd think something like a knowledge rank requirement tied to knights speices enemy along with a skill focus in that knowledge would be more appropriate.
Thanks Sysane.
The reason for Power Attack and Improved Crit is mainly for the Cut Them Down ability - I thought that both of these feats would be a major factor in the KotC's ability to kill his favored enemies and this was the major ability to capatilize on the two feats.
Thoughts:
It's a pretty cool PrC, but I have some suggestions.
Change alignment to any lawful or evil. I could see a lawful neutral or even good character doing this because they think it is right.
Add yuan-ti to the favored enemy list. The snake people must die!
Make half-humans a bonus favored enemy. These beings are desecrations to mankind, and as such should be hated above all others in the eyes of all of the knights.
I'd make the speech have to last for at least 10 minutes. 1 minute would barely get any attention.
Alignment - I disagree with your assumption here - NO good creature or person could go about the destruction and killing of an entire race and still be good. So I would have to say no - the alignment will stay the same.
Yuan-ti are not Open Gaming Content and therefore they cannot be used for official products and so i will not use them for my un-official ones either. That is also why I have the note saying that other races can be selected as long as the DM okay's it.
I see no reason to seperate half-breeds into another catagory - as i state in the chart, half-breeds fall in the same racial catagory as their non-human parent - so a half-elf goes with with elves, muls with dwarves, ect...
As for the length of the speech - this ability is taken almost in whole from the Templar of the Scale PrC. That class only has the speech being 1 round. I made it longer but also able to affect more people. Also - have you seen Braveheart? The speech William Walas (sp) gives is no where near 10 minutes and you can see the effect (granted it is a movie, but this is a game too so...)
I like it.
I'm not sure I would give them more than one favored enemy though. Everything I've read suggests that they really focused on one non-human race. Perhaps instead you could have them focus on one race, but give them lesser bonuses against all non-human enemies.
I agree about half-races. Tamar shows as much loathing for Rikus, as a half-dwarf, as she does for the full dwarves, going as far as threatening to kill Neeva before letting him "sully" her.
Thanks to you too-
I am not sure about giving them a blanket bonus against all non-human race - that may be a bit too much IMO.
I agree that there should only be one favored enemy, each army focused on just one, and that was enough. Also, maybe the list should be for each of the champion's cleansed races. So maybe limit the list to only the 15. Maybe some more, if each DM has more than just the one champion. Creatures like thri-kreen shouldn't be on the list, as they are a blue age race. Other than that, I really like it. Put's my mind to thinking about other interesting possibilities for that Cleansing War supplement I have been meaning to start on...
This class is not going to be limited to the Green Age - and therefore I thought it approperate to add most non-human races - kreen and the like that may have also hailed from the Blue Age.
Additionally I'd remove Thri-kreen from the favored enemy list, and, possibly, the Nikaal as well. As both are seen as Blue Age races - the Nikaal, unofficially so, at least.
Detect Favored Enemy - IMO this is an ability far too powerful for a mere 2nd level knight. Your telling me, that at 2nd level, this guy's so familiar with the ways of his favored enemy, that merely by thinking about it, he can feel their presence....just doesn't work for me. This feels much more like an end of the road kind of ability, ie. either 9th or 10th level - with me leaning towards 10th.
Righteous Courage - the mechanics seem ok to me. However - and this is really just a minor nit-pick - the fluff for this ability, gained at 2nd level, already compares this guy to a super human. I'd tone down the "holy-cow, this awe-inspiring being of stupendous might and supreme ability" factor that seems to come with your personal brand of writing.
Incite Racial Superiority - I'd actually suggest toning down the bonuses, but making this an ability usable after, like, 1 round of 'speech'. In my mind, this could easily be an ability used in the middle of combat, used to incite his fellow soldiers to stand firm against the enemy - using nothing more than a "Stand Firm, men!!!!!" kind of expression.
Bane of Races - I'm inclined to suggest modelling this ability after a few of the PrCs in the FR book Faiths and Pantheons. As an example, the Silverstar PrC grants, at 3rd level, the Moon's Hand ability. With it, any heavy mace becomes a +1 shock heavy mace in her hands - letting go of it returns the weapon to its normal state. Plus, the ability increases to +2 shock heavy mace at 6th level, and, at 9th the silverstar gains the Greater Moon's Hand ability - which converts the weapon to a +2 shocking burst heavy mace.
For Detect Enemy - this is almost exactly like the paladine ability - with is gained at 1st level of that class.
Righteous Courage - Well they are at least 11th level at this time if they were a fighter 9/ kotc 2 - so they are not noobs in any way to combat - they would be elite veteran soldiers. Too lower level followers, these guys would be super-human. And BTW - My writing is AWESOME!!! :P
Incite Racial Superiority - Again, this ability is almost totally from the Templar of the Scale PrC.
As for the bane of races - At this point they are at least 14th level - so allowing them to have the effect last longer does not seem like a huge issue to me. I have thought that adding a comment in there that says that the effective enhansment of the weapon this effect is added to cannot exceed +10, if it would do so the wielder could choose to have the bane ability kind of inactivate one of the other abilities that the weapon has for the duration of the bane of races effect.
Chew that bit of crazy over for a while :D
Oh- and I re-wrote the intro fluff a bit. I have a bad tendency to make really long and kinda confusing sentences. So I fixed it and cleaned it up a bit.
Alignment - I disagree with your assumption here - NO good creature or person could go about the destruction and killing of an entire race and still be good. So I would have to say no - the alignment will stay the same.
To play devil's advocate:
As it pertains to good:
There's a difference between absolute good and perceived good. It all depends on your point of view. What about Oronis? Part of being truly evil is not having a conscience. Does any good character ever feel bad about mowing down evil hummanoids?
There was a psychological study done on people that is famous, though I forget who conducted it. Subjects were told to give people shocks for getting wrong answers. Every wrong answer would subsequently hurt more than previous ones. What they found was that people continued to dole out shocks even when the people they were shocking pleaded with them. It goes to show that humans follow authority. Many a good person has committed an evil act with the best of intentions.
As it pertains to law:
The point of the Cleansing was to restore the natural order to the planet. The knights are bound by oathes. If any restriction should be in place it seems that the knight should have to be lawful.
This is not a thread to discuss the moral guidelines or ramification of this class or the Cleansing Wars.
The alignment will stay the way it is because that is how I want it. I m not trying to be rude, but I just do not want this thread to be derailed or turn into a debate, so sorry if I come off as a bit of a jerk
<-- to soften the sledge hammer I was failing around.This is not a thread to discuss the moral guidelines or ramification of this class or the Cleansing Wars.
The alignment will stay the way it is because that is how I want it...
Fair enough, I was just trying to inspire you to think about it and take no offense. I enjoyed my psych minor in college and am bombarded with ethics quite frequently nowadays.
...I do not agree, I think the approach you have goes further to stay true to the above example.
Oh, yeah, I misunderstood the suggestion. Half-races should be considered members of their non-human parent race, as you've got it. That's what I was thinking was meant by giving them as a bonus enemy.
As far as a generic bonus to non-human races, I definitely would limit it to non-human Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. I know this leaves out some potentials that would fall into categories like Fey and Giants, but I think you otherwise run the risk of giving them a bonus against everything.
If this is the case, I'm not sure you couldn't just give them a standard Favored Enemy type bonus. I never really understood why rangers have to choose a particular type of humanoid, given that how common any particular enemy is remains entirely dependent on the DM and the campaign. That said, you might just give them a half bonus (+1 skill bonus/+1 damage), the increase to their favored enemy (as you already have it) and just make it clear that it stacks with the standard bonus (and any other favored enemy bonuses). This means that a ranger could potentially have as much as +7 damage vs. his enemy race and a fighter would have +5, in addition to +1 damage vs all other non-humans. Certainly nothing to shake a fist at.
Alternatively you could give a bonus to hit vs. non-humans
On a different subject, for bane of the races, I like the idea any weapon they wield taking on the bane ability, but only while they wield it. This keeps them from passing the weapon off, which seems like something they shouldn't be doing.
It keeps the duration becuase IMO have an effect like this that only last for a few moments would not be that effective in the mass battles that these fellows would be involved in.
I will post the fixed Bane of Enemies in a moment.
Thanks Sysane.
The reason for Power Attack and Improved Crit is mainly for the Cut Them Down ability - I thought that both of these feats would be a major factor in the KotC's ability to kill his favored enemies and this was the major ability to capatilize on the two feats.
Understandable. I'm not keen on the ability being dependent on the feat though. May I suggest an increased crit range vs. there chosen race instead?
Well I am not going to get into a moral or ethical debate with you and I do not care about the perceived and absolute good in this case. I studied philosophy, sociology, and psychology for about two years each while in college and have had my fill of those pointless and endless debates- which is the reason I have a degree in accounting now.
Not to mention that the rules on alignment are quite clear and therefore shouldn't encourage the greatest metaethical debate of 2006 like it has previously.
I'm all about arguing these things, I don't find them boring, but I also find it silly that people try to turn the alignment system into some half-hearted metaethic debate and is usaully started by people that should read way more philosophy books than D&D books before they do so. And yes, I'm one of these, so keep your guns to yourself.
All in all if the alignment system doesn't work for you there are plenty of other rule sets out there that might, the alleigance system being one of them. It is also a bit more metaethical friendly as well for all of us somewhat realistic nuts. ;)
P.S. Hello to my fellow Indianapolis person. I also forgot my tag in the above post. :D
Understandable. I'm not keen on the ability being dependent on the feat though. May I suggest an increased crit range vs. there chosen race instead?
Alternatively you could just give them a bonus to crit confirmation rolls against their chosen enemy. Maybe something like half their knight level? This then encourages them to have things like improved crit, but doesn't leave the ability as being dependent on a feat.
How about this then?
With power attacks against their favored enemy, they deal 2 pts. of damage for each point of BAB they put towards the ability (with it being maxed at +10 for a +5) and if I remove the 2nd favored enemy, a new ability could be added that gives them 1/2 their level towards confirming crits against their favored enemy. Both of those abilities are similar to feats IIRC and should not be too over powered.
But, has anyone thought further on the power/balance issues of giving a total non-human bonus vs. just having the second favored enemy? I am still undecided on this so....
Oh and I just realized that I should also make halflings a race that cannot be selected - with the excuse that they were except from the Cleansing due to them being such loyal followers to Rajaat - which is a lie of course, but I think it should be added.
Oh and I just realized that I should also make halflings a race that cannot be selected - with the excuse that they were except from the Cleansing due to them being such loyal followers to Rajaat - which is a lie of course, but I think it should be added.
If you want to go with a sort of resurgence of Knights in the current age, then some might, independent of Rajaat, choose to focus on killing halflings. I think for this reason keep them on the list of possibilities. Certainly make it clear that during the cleansing wars there weren't Halfling-killing Knights.
I think your two suggestions (x2 for power attack and bonus to confirming) are good possibilities. I would be careful though of how much extra damage you're giving the Knight, even if it's only vs. one race. A tenth level knight already gets +4 damage from Favored Enemy and +2d6 if he's using his Bane of the Races weapon. If he started as a Ranger he could have another +4 from his ranger favored enemy. That means a total of 10-20 even before you give him another +10 from power attack. And if he scores a critical (which we're proposing would be easier than usual) we're talking bonuses of up to 60 damage. So I guess, I'd probably suggest choosing which ones of these you want to keep, and cutting back on the others, giving other things instead.
(I also just noticed that "Pixie" on the chart of acceptable favored enemies is missing an E)
If you want to go with a sort of resurgence of Knights in the current age, then some might, independent of Rajaat, choose to focus on killing halflings. I think for this reason keep them on the list of possibilities. Certainly make it clear that during the cleansing wars there weren't Halfling-killing Knights.
I think your two suggestions (x2 for power attack and bonus to confirming) are good possibilities. I would be careful though of how much extra damage you're giving the Knight, even if it's only vs. one race. A tenth level knight already gets +4 damage from Favored Enemy and +2d6 if he's using his Bane of the Races weapon. If he started as a Ranger he could have another +4 from his ranger favored enemy. That means a total of 10-20 even before you give him another +10 from power attack. And if he scores a critical (which we're proposing would be easier than usual) we're talking bonuses of up to 60 damage. So I guess, I'd probably suggest choosing which ones of these you want to keep, and cutting back on the others, giving other things instead.
(I also just noticed that "Pixie" on the chart of acceptable favored enemies is missing an E)
No Pixie is there- it is just missing the "e" at the end - computer must have spelled it wrong! I have noticed that they do that sometimes. :P
You make good points, but seeing as how these abilities are similar to feats published in some of the Wizard books, I do not see a problem with them, seeing as how their application is limited to a specific race.
As for the halfling thing, I think that if these knights were to be around in the current time, which I emply in the the fluff, then they would know about the status of halflings being kind of protected - as I am also kind of emplying that is may be Rajaat or his servents who are bringing this order of warriors back. So, IMO keeping them as being off-limits so to speak, is not unreasonable.
Thanks again.
Also, any chance you might alphabetize your chosen enemy list?
...which is why it also makes sense to have thri-kreen, and, depending on your line of thought, nikaals off limits as well. Being that they are considered inhabitants of the Blue Age.
Also, any chance you might alphabetize your chosen enemy list?
It has nothing to do with them being present in the Blue Age. Halflings were never a race that felt the Cleansing - due to the fact that they were thought of as loyal servants to Rajaat. Now, it cannot be said that thri-kreen or, if they were around, the nikaals, were afforded the same level of protection. Some of the halflings still serve as Rajaats servants as the shadow giants, so IMO that protection and intention of returning the world to the halflings is still there.
As for putting the names in alphabetical order...well maybe if you ask nicely :P
But you guys will not see them yet :D
I am having it looked over by someone else and when i get it back from said person, then I may post the final version up here.
Thanks all and have fun.
1) Timeline: Any. Setting: Anattan wastes. Vast tracks of these wastes are utterly devoid of any plant life and water. The region is almost completely abandoned. The reason being the cleansing wars are still being continuing! An unknown champion of Rajaat who enjoyed his task of extermination a little too much went above and beyond the call of duty and attempted to exterminate ALL life! Including those of his knights, who became some form of undead cleansing knights (possibly kaishagra?). Rajaat didn't care, this was in line with his overall plan so hey, no probs. Much more worrying was the contemporary trollscorcher, who was not even exterminating trolls! However, when the other champions turned against Rajaat, this unknown champion was still preoccupied with laying waste to the remote Anattan region. Later, Borys and/or others decided it was time to contain this over-zealous champion. The plan almost worked, the champion disappeared, only to reappear at a different time-point. Cursed to wander time exterminating the same races over and over again, the Annihilator of Life has learned to relish the task, gaining the pleasure of genocide over and over again throughout time. The defiled earth has given up all life in the face of such continuous abuse.
Afterthought: said champion was an exterminator of changelings / dopplegaenger, their ability to shape shift eventually gave him an excuse to pursue all races to extinction (just to be sure).
2) Timeline: post tohr-kreen invasion of the tablelands. Setting: Tablelands, Crimson Savanna. In response to the near destruction of the tablelands by invading kreen armies, the remaining sorceror kings decide it is time to raise another champion to eliminate a species Rajaat for some reason left untouched: the kreen. Regaining the lens a keen kreen-slaying half-elf is giving the task of becoming the first exterminator in millenia, complete with his own band of cleansing knights! (ok this is my least favourite idea just now)
3) Timeline: post failed Eldaarach invasion of Kurn (perhaps Paizo timeline due to the length of time needed to elapse). Setting: Lost cities. Daskinor invaded Kurn, took Fort Protector and learned of new Kurn. In the showdown between Daskinor and Onoris, the latter healed the former's shattered mind. Daskinor retreated and instead of thanking Oronis, recovered and despised him only all the more. In his kingdom he waited for a chance to 'revenge' and put an end to Oronis' lies of peace. When after many years agents discovered the lost sea and found living lizard men, Daskinor reveled at the opportunity to turn them against their former exterminator, made an alliance with a tribe and trained a number of bitter l-men as cleansing knights of Kurn, with hate auras to protect them against Oronis' 'lies'. With Daskinor's help they carried out an assassation attempt on Oronis. Coming close to harming Oronis severly, the avangion reeled from the shock of seeing living l-men again but resorted to detroying them by magic/psionics. Daskinor was nevertheless satisfied with the result. Keltis had once again blasted lizard men off the face of Athas. And the very thing that had turned him into Oronis, his conscience, had been badly wounded. Daskinor chuckled at the thought...
Don't know if these are any good, but there's a few thoughts that your post on these knights put into my mind!