Eldaarich = psycho ward or nut farm - undecided yet.
:D :D :D
Kurn...no idea...
Kurn.. sorry I'm not familiar with written info on it.
Some Athasian cities have closer real life counterparts while others are fairly mixed, which is probably why we debate which cultures cities like Tyr, Raam, or Nibenay belong to. Although Balic and Draj might more closely resemble Roman and Aztec/Incan cultures respectively. Another useful way of thinking about it is to remember how most ancient cultures stretching from Spain all the way to India had mingled with each other for centuries and were fairly mixed by the late Classical age. Consider the Greco-Persian empires founded after Alexander, Ptolemic Egypt, or Indo-Greek Bactria - they had aspects of Greek, Persian, Indian, Egyptian, and even northern European cultures all put together. Given the proximity of Athasian cities, I'm pretty sure they have mixed quite frequently throughout their history and maybe even when they were created, some of them were thought of as mixed ancient cultures like the ones mentioned above. The point is, while it is useful to consider real life cultures as a starting point, I would prefer to be more flexible about associating real world cultural aspects to Athasian cities, rather than trying to pigeon hole one culture with one Athasian city-state. It's probably more useful for all of us to mix and match as well, just like how it had happened in history.
A. No inspiration from a specific Earth culture. Oronis would have redesigned everything, inlcuding manners, clothing and architecture (as indicated in the pic where we see the incredible towers). This does not mean it would be hippie, new age, or whatnot. Just never before seen. I'd say their society is not one of contemplation, but one of mandatory schooling with the possibility of higher studies for all, a strong but open legal and judiciary system, voted-in VIPs, etc, incorporating many facets of western civilization and Green Age civilization.
B. Formerly tasked with cleansing lizardman, an amphibian race, Oronis could have taken inspiration from lizardman architecture and building techniques, with structures partly submerged. Again, this would go well with the pic where we see the towers jutting out of the waters. Maybe there are seasonal floodwaters in the valley where he built his new city, and designed the buildings so they are functional when partly submerged, with citizens going around in small open boats, like Blue Age halflings.
Kurn - I don't think a civilization such as this has ever existed on earth. It's one of ideals, a eutopia, where people peacefully coexist with both each other and nature. I picture Oronis' templars to be paragons of justice, in robes of bright azure. There is little to no crime because no one is starving or dying of thirst. The arts fluorish because the task of survival is far easier than. There are temples to the four elements , and clerics of the elements are revered for trying to restore life to Athas.
Eldaarich - I understand why you thought of China reference, but maybe more Communist revolution China than present day. I saw it as kind of a Soviet state, myself, though Daskinor reminded me of King Herod of Judaea. I see everyone dressed very drably, no art, no free expression. Little difference in the dress of men and women as calling attention to such things hinders productivity.
Kurn...yeah, no real culture...
But...since we are talking about cultures...something that cultures do...CONFLICT
How would they fight?
Eldaarich - COMPLETE DEPENDANCE ON ONE ANOTHER! Daskinor brainwashes his soldiers to the point where he does not feel that they would be able to rise up against him, making living robots to fight for him. Considering the fact which he fought against goblins (i'm assuming athasian goblins bred like rats as well). This would make their style of combat reliant on one another. I am not sure if Daskinors army would have had tower shields, lining up against one another and forming a wall like the romans in their testudo stance. Piercing weapons don't make much sense to me either in such a situation considering you have a horde of little buggers that could just move out of the way of a stab. this puts phalanx/ testudo fighting in something of a disadvantage because it is most effective when you need the movement of your arm straight out and in. I could be wrong about the spears and the small creatures, but who knows. Other strategy i could see - scythes.........just would look cool. Wouldn't make their army very effective though. I can't see much archery or projectiles being part of the army. He could just rely on his templars/defilers to do that for him.
Weapons and armor - no freakin' clue, they could use axes and spears being simple weapons that the goblins could make. armor i'm guessin' heavy. Reason being - you are getting flanked with a bunch of weak, small, beings at all times. unless you are tightly clustered, shields will be useless (in my game shields affect only 4 squares). What's more is that why be fighting a massive amount of creatures dealing relatively little damage when you could take away most of the threat... This would make Daskinors troops the deadliest heavy infantry (atleast in theory...or they were back in the day MUAHAHAHHAHAHA!)
Unarmed tactics - (YES MOST ARMIES HAD THESE!) I could see a lot of leg work (esp being heavy infantry) but not doing the flashy kicks that are used in Tae kwan do. More like muay thai kicks. Straight or round, that and use of knees. This could possibly make ALL of their soldier's chitin (or shell) greaves spiked until the knee. (i use a different system so i can use all of this while this is just fluff to the other folk)
Kurn
yeah...all i can think is integration of preservers, psionics, clerical magic, and druids...yeah ...that and i don't really see them having a huge force beceause of their peace with all view, but maybe they are like "hey we gotta protect the peace"
I'm guessing that the battles with goblins probably didn't occur on open fields. It was likely more a mixture of seiges and cleaning out tunnels. Thus he likely commanded light mobile infantry and war engines.
I think that his tactics would have changed to suit his new perceived enemies, i.e. the other SK's. He seems very defense-oriented, and so I picture an Achean Phalanx style. Lines of large shields. Soldiers would carry a spear and a short sword.
for Kurn I get the japanese impression mostly because they have a fake town set up for forigners and a real secret town for themselves. All the while living under a competent emperor who leaves them mostly to their own devices because he knows that he has their utmost loyalty.
I imagine Kurn as Tibet. Seriously! A Tibet under the rule of the Dalai Lama.
Sure, not everyone is enlightened and holy and peaceable, most people are just people, after all -- but you have your enlightened mystic-monks (Oronis' templars) living up in the mountains in monasteries, protecting the valley with their chants and meditations (spells), and functioning as the local magistrates, trying as best they are able to settle conflicts between citizens peaceably and non-violently and basically shaping the culture around them towards non-violence through their own teachings and deeds.
You have the goat-herding, semi-nomadic populace living in tents and pasturing their animals, wandering the mountains, living off the land, venerating the old spirits spirits (elemental and druidic) as well as the Enlightened One (Oronis) and his sacred holy men -- with the local spirits and old spirits considered subservient to the Enlightened One.
And you have the city-dwellers as well, who are well educated in the monastic schools run by Oronis' templars, and more worldly and "modern" in their beliefs and practices than the nomads and villagers -- but not in a superior "we're better than you dirty schlumps are" way (but perhaps subtly to any unenlightened outsiders).
Oronis lives at the center of it all, in some holy city-within-the-city, or a sprawling, impossibly gargantuan temple built into the cloud-wreathed mountains, rising up from the granite slopes just beyond the city -- the Temple of Ten-thousand Steps or something. With elaborate rituals of purification through incense burning, chanting, bell-ringing, prayer-wheel turning, and bird-releasing required to ascend the stairs properly to seek audience with Oronis.
That would kick, totally.
I imagine Kurn as Tibet. Seriously! A Tibet under the rule of the Dalai Lama.
Which begs the question then, who gets to be Communist China, come in, take over and put Oronis on the run.
Oronis in Exile... it could be cool.
although I must admit that MysticTheurge's idea sounds very much like a campaign Idea to me ;)
Yes, it sounded that way to me as well. It definitely could make for an interesting campaign. The question reall is, who would you have invade? And perhaps more importantly, why doesn't Oronis fight back. Maybe the invaders aren't really "bad guys" and so Oronis doesn't want to hurt them?
What does an avangion do when the spirits of the land decide he's too much of a risk and have the druids revolt against him?
Yes, it sounded that way to me as well. It definitely could make for an interesting campaign. The question reall is, who would you have invade? And perhaps more importantly, why doesn't Oronis fight back. Maybe the invaders aren't really "bad guys" and so Oronis doesn't want to hurt them?
What does an avangion do when the spirits of the land decide he's too much of a risk and have the druids revolt against him?
Not to sound cliche but what if it was a spirit of the land that became newly influenced by the addition of a lizardman druid/psionicist that has merged with it?
Eww!
At the same time, it's not as if Oronis never defiled, right? Maybe the Spirits just decide that his past transgressions are unforgivable. This could be even more possible if you've got a former-lizardman Spirit who recently joined the group.
Can't you see a possibility where a particularly charismatic arcane-hating druid turns the druid residents of Kurn against Oronis?
I guess the Dark Sun in my head isn't made up of the same Absolutes as a lot of other people's seems to be. I can see an athas where you have some druids practice arcane magic to better battle defilers and where others might turn against an avangion for the damage he might cause to the land.
I'm sorry if I let on I believe my position is one of absolutes, its not. Some spirits of the land are unque in their mentality, due to events that occured on their lands, or to what epic druid was integrated into their very being upon death. A dead and integrated fanatic druid might skew the spirit's perceptions so much so he'd step out of the norm for spirits.
Curaite was one apparently unique spirit, yet its actions was benign. Another one was Desverendi, strongly aligned to Korgunard, another avangion.
I believe somewhere you could find wounded, hurt, or influenced spirits that would be against all forms of arcane magic, but I also believe that the spirit of Kurn's region is mightily grateful Oronis is living on his territory; probably that both communicate like Desverendi and Korgunard used to while the latter was alive. Oronis might be playing around with epic spells and how he can make them interact or influence the land and its spirit, with the spirit's permission. Maybe...by linking both their essences together they will both become more able to protect the land and the people. Possibilities aplenty.
More specifically, when you asked Pennarin, weren't you one of the folks arguing with me just a couple weeks ago that Druids consider allarcane magic to be an abomination against the land?, well I'm not sure I said abomination, but you can be sure its frowned upon because it uses the land's very energy and runs the risk of becoming defiling. Preserver-perception is on a case by case basis, for each preserver a druid encounters and each druid a preserver meets. For defilers its no quarters.
Pennarin, weren't you one of the folks arguing with me just a couple weeks ago that Druids consider all arcane magic to be an abomination against the land?
Can't you see a possibility where a particularly charismatic arcane-hating druid turns the druid residents of Kurn against Oronis?
I guess the Dark Sun in my head isn't made up of the same Absolutes as a lot of other people's seems to be. I can see an athas where you have some druids practice arcane magic to better battle defilers and where others might turn against an avangion for the damage he might cause to the land.
If there were to be a rebellion, I would think it would have to be masterminded by spies of the sorcerer kings or powerful nobles who do not wish to see everyone on an equal playing field. The rebellion would have to be insidious until a swift and powerful strike could be mounted. I would envision something along the lines of how Palpatine ousted the Jedi in the Star Wars saga.
If we're going with the Bhuddist-Tibet ideal of Oronis, he may not be willing to fight back, prefering non-violence and passive resistance -- withdrawing all his people into the valley instead of fighting to keep Kurn -- and encouraging the same among his followers. Perhaps he even believes he can cure Daskinor's madness, save the Sorcerer-King by showing him the path to enlightenment and freedom (and who knows, maybe he can).
Regardless, Oronis is pretty safe from harm. Anything gets close to him, and they're enveloped by his innate defensive cocoon against everything, plus the power of a psion who can simply waltz into your brain and show you the truth of existance, harmony, peace. You simply aren't going to want to try and kill him.
I think I found it through Wizards or Athas.org or something like that.
Could someone give me some basic info on these two cities and where they are located? I have the original DS boxed set, not the revised one so the only info I have on these places are posts like this. I really want to utilized these locations, but I don't really know much about them so if someone could briefly fill me in I'd appreciate it.
Try http://www.rpgnow.com/
Regardless, Oronis is pretty safe from harm. Anything gets close to him, and they're enveloped by his innate defensive cocoon against everything, plus the power of a psion who can simply waltz into your brain and show you the truth of existance, harmony, peace. You simply aren't going to want to try and kill him.
Not necessarily safe. Throughout history proponents of peace and religious leaders have always been persecuted / killed and often their non-violent stance has just spured their enemies on all the more. I like the idea that Oronis could pacify some of his enemies, though I'd prefer him not to be too powerful. It's makes for a better campaign if he still has a lot to fear losing methinks. I'd look forward to seeing somekind of showdown between Daskinor and Oronis. Perhaps Lost Cities will deliver something along these lines?
If New Kurn and Eldaarich (and Draj) did get into some sort of a scuffle, i could see Kurn being evacuated immediately, possibly posing as if some sort of disaster happened. I think that Eldaarich would back off simply because of their paranoid nature, not wanting the same thing to happen to them...or Eldaarich could strike out against Draj. This could give Draj an opprotunity to go against Eldaarich for more slaves/ possible land...
I don't know how Draj would react to this considering they do not have all mighty Teck...but they have his "son". If the leaders didn't let them fight Eldaarich...It'd probably be a coup...just a thought though.
Not necessarily safe. Throughout history proponents of peace and religious leaders have always been persecuted / killed and often their non-violent stance has just spured their enemies on all the more.
1) Please detail some and attendant situations that you know about in history that meet your criteria (but only as an exercise for yourself, since this is not a political forum). You may find there are fewer such successful persecutions than you think.
2) But for this thread, let us focus on something we should not forget: unlike religous leaders throughout history, Oronis actually has magical powers, and is no slouch with them, either. IIRC, he is the most powerful wizard and psion on the planet (next to the now deceased Borys); only Dregoth comes close in terms of similar accomplishment.
Remember, just because he will not level entire armies with an epic fireball does not make him in any way powerless or even less powerful.
So, as a thinking or boundary-breaking exercise for all you D&D GMs out there, here in this thread, list the ways or the things Oronis could do to not only personally protect himself, but stop an entire army without resorting to violence and bloodshed.
I'm not even talking being smart by using clever schemes or whatever -- things any brilliant non-magical human could set-up and execute -- just the various spells and psionic effects he could bring to bear singly or in combination to his own advantage. Run through the various powers available to him and let us know what you come up with!
I think we will all be surprised at the creative results.
So...considering how insanely powerful that spell was, I can imagine Oronis designing and using epic spells just as mighty to affecti entire armies, with peace-loving mind-affecting effects if need be.
An Epic Spell that destoys an enemies weapons (there was a broach in 2ed that shattered obsidian): no more weapons and no more fighting.
those are two jsut off the top of my head, and that is just him, not his templars and armies, and it's non-violent, which I don't see him being. I think he would just prefer to not kill if he did not have to.
those are two jsut off the top of my head, and that is just him, not his templars and armies, and it's non-violent, which I don't see him being. I think he would just prefer to not kill if he did not have to.
True. He might resort to violence "when necessary" (whatever that may mean)...but outright killing? I have serious doubts of that for reasons that deserve a thread in and of themselves.
In fact, he very well could be the "benevolent dictator" type instead. If any of you have read "Red Son" -- a Superman comic where Kal-el was raised in the Soviet Union instead of the United States -- one might imagine Oronis behaving very much like this. (Beyond mining it for that material, it is an excellent and thought-provoking book, well worth the read.)
For the moment, for this exercise, let's assume he is on a path of complete non-violence.
1) Please detail some and attendant situations that you know about in history that meet your criteria (but only as an exercise for yourself, since this is not a political forum). You may find there are fewer such successful persecutions than you think.
Well, you stated yourself you would base Kurn on Tibet, and the fate of the Dalai Lama illustrates more than just a political point, but something about human nature. Peacemakers are often despised, oppressed and occassionally victims of violence. And I don't think on Athas everyone would rally to the cause of Oronis either, but might hate him for what he represents.
However, the second point is fair enough, Oronis is described as having great powers, having been orginally one of Rajaat's champions. And like much of Dark Sun, I like the twist in this, the herald of Athas' salvation was once very much a part of its devastation.
I would also favour a twist in the saga if Oronis in some way did heal Daskinor, or restore his sanity. Daskinor might not necessarily thank or befriend Oronis, but could continue to despise him. Now with his sanity more intact, he would prove to be a more capable strategist and thus a more deadly enemy.
It would also be interesting to turn your question around, if Oronis is now the most powerful wizard and psion on the planet, what weapons could be used against him?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=520843
As far as Kurn is concerned, I'd like to see it as a radical society -since most societies fall well short of the utopia they envision. One radical ideal would be that Kurn and Eldaarich organized society in the same way, with Kurn actually living up to its ideals and Eldaarich falling far short.
I mapped out society in Eldaarich as communal and inter-dependent (nothing belongs to anyone, everything belongs to the State, which redistributes things in a "fair and balanced" way.) Maybe Kurn has the same principles at heart in a truly anarchist (think maximixing individual freedoms, not total chaos) way. Maybe private property doesn't exist -maybe everything belongs to everyone and Oronis' templars ensure an equal distrubution of goods.
While I could see Oronis as a complete pacifist, I can't picture him naively creating a pacifist society totally incapable of defending itself against the threats from the outside world. I think that Oronis has a cynical bend (from having spear-headed the Cleansing Wars) which would prevent him from making his citizens into sitting ducks.
Lastly, when it comes to "utopia," I think that we should be creative. "Utopia" is a relative idea based entirely upon the values held by a specific society. Thus, people from societies with different / other values wouldn't necessarily see "utopia" in the same light as the residents. For example, I am sure that the idea of "paradise" would have been radically different for the Spartan people in contrast to the Athenians.
I dunno, utopia just doesn't sound convincing unless there is some kind of flaw, or sacrifice involved (ever read "The One Who Walk Away From Omelas"?) One possible flaw I could think of for Kurnians, is that they have the same resigned attitude as Oronis. They have given up hope for changing Athas, and instead seek only to ensure their own safety and happiness.
itf
The WC did not provide any pictures of Kurn, just of New Kurn. Obviously Kurn's style of government is nothing at all like the egyptian one, even the words fit a greco-roman ideal.
So we're using Egyptian names and ideas where they fit, and tossing them where they don't fit.
Kurn's less tied to one particular culture than any of the other city-states could be.
Yes, we did think quite a bit about isolationist paranoid Japan in designing Eldaarich, but as someone else suggested here, you can't leave out the other totalitarians. (Which is why groups like the Red Guards pop up in Wisdom of Terror).
True. He might resort to violence "when necessary" (whatever that may mean)...but outright killing? I have serious doubts of that for reasons that deserve a thread in and of themselves.
In fact, he very well could be the "benevolent dictator" type instead.
Would that not contradict source material that makes clear that Kurn is governed by the tribunal and presiders? Or do you mean that Oronis governs as benevolent dictator in *New* Kurn, and that the flawed democracy is just for Kurn?
[INDENT]“It was no great feat for the human race to wipe out the other rebirth races. humans bred faster; we outnumbered the others. If the original champions had been marginally competent, the Cleansing Wars would never have lasted fifteen hundred years. Rajaat did not want competent commanders; he did not choose us for our leadership skills. Rajaat chose champions that could rouse mobs to hatred and violence. Rajaat did not want a swift annihilation of the demi-human rebirth races. He wanted us to bring the human race to the brink of annihilation in the process—and we did. When most of us were still apprentices, Rajaat told us:
[INDENT]Only I can see your true potential. Daskinor here was born in a cave, and his grandparents struggled with the concept of making fire. But do you see the scimitar at his side? Daskinor forged that from ore that he took from the canyons of another world. Submit to me, and I will forge you into gods. Cross me, and you can go back to your mediocre lives.[/INDENT]
How did Rajaat choose us, then? There were many powerful psionic leaders in the Green Age. Rajaat seemed to look for the most ambitious and magnetic bunglers, once-popular leaders who had run their cities, or nations into the ground with bad management. Daskinor was not the only of the champions that failed at ruling a city, then failed at ruling an empire, but still aspired to govern the world. The Kel Tas and the Kurnans suffered considerably under my grand ideas until I stepped aside and let others take the reins. Nibenay seems to have learned the same lesson. It seems that the less I govern, the more Kurn thrives. Daskinor blames others for his leadership failures, just as I used to do, while I receive credit for the successes of others.
Even Rajaat worked for an arguably noble purpose. Even Dregoth has kept the affection of his old friend. Daskinor has no redeeming qualities. And yet I cannot help feeling pity for the old spider, trapped in his own webs, and still spinning them. How ironic that a psionic Nomad who has seen more worlds and planes than most sages have even heard of, would end up confined to a single room of his sprawling palace. How strange that this prisoner-of-his-own-fears, once had the courage that I lacked — the courage to face down Borys the Dragon and to refuse to sacrifice his people to the levy!
By defying the Dragon, Daskinor saved his people, my people, and perhaps even my soul. I had only begun to walk the preserving path. The Dragon’s levy forced me to to choose between turning over another thousand lives to the Dragon, or fighting him. Without defiling, I had no hope of fighting the Dragon, and even if I did defile, I had no real hope of winning. I prepared a thousand persons for a levy, but the Dragon never came. I tried to convey my thanks to Daskinor afterwards, and to ask what happened, but my messenger never returned alive. I don’t think he even got the message. People fleeing his city said that the templar Orders were at open war with each other, and the doors of the palace remained shut.
Now my spies tell me that Daskinor sits paralyzed for months at a time, and then wakes up to order another slew of murders and atrocities. He has a bad dream about the Order, so he purges his city of everyone who demonstrates psionic power. His courage has turned to cowardice, and his curiosity has turned to fear of the unknown. After facing down Borys, all of Daskinor’s better qualities, his courage, his curiosity, and his ambition, seem to have deserted him like rats scurrying from a burning house. What happened that day? What threat could Daskinor possibly have used to frighten Borys the Dragon?"[/INDENT]
-“Wisdom of Sorrow,” by Oronis.
While "Wisdom of Sorrow" will probably be quoted in a number of upcoming projects, it is its own book, and there is only one copy. If you want to read the whole thing, you'll have to break into Oronis' palace and steal a look for yourself.
I enjoyed Oronis' introduction:
[INDENT]When I was young, my schooling as a noble youth included tedious readings called "histories." I cannot recall anything that was written (the matter of the disputes of my ancestors must have seemed of little consequence to me at the time) but I do recall the manner of writing: austere, anonymous, and asinine. Histories seemed to float without writer or reader; they pronounced the "facts" as if the past were a matter of simple observation, and as if everyone would see it the same way. Even as a child, histories struck me as pretentious. After thousands of years, I find it hard to be so sure about anything. So why in the name of Rajaat am I writing a history?
Since I am not a practiced historian, I cannot speak or write to a void. I will imagine a reader, so that I can proceed.
I picture you as a thief that has stolen into my tower, seeking treasure or knowledge. You are skilled; you have circumvented my templars, my guards, my wards, my illusions, my locks ... but you are dissapointed. The shelves are less full than you had hoped. Surely Oronis king of Kurn keeps more than these meager belongings! Your eyes light upon an open book, upon a desk, inside a bare and empty room without windows. You step into the room, curious to see what spells I might be painting into my book.
The door closes behind you, and you turn to see me between you and the closed door. The knowledge you have come to steal, I will force upon you. Sit down, thief, and listen.
The Blue Age
There was a time called the Blue Age, when halfings were scattered on mountaintops throughout the world, since most of the world was covered in water. The area around the halfling city of Tyryagi contained many peaks, and somehow became a center of culture. No surviving documents explain how this center of culture came to dominate all halflings cultures around the globe; the halfling histories begin suspiciously at "Year one" of the "First World Age". This is the same calendar has been preserved through time, although we now speak of "King's Ages". In ages of my careful searching of ancient halfling ruins, I have only encountered one halfling enscription that suggested that there may once have been an earlier calendar: a reference to Year Ninteen of the "New World Age". What was the "Old" World like? I have no grounds for speculation — other than the strong conviction that there was an old world age, and that its story has been eliminated from the world.
The greatest of the life-shaping experiments were carried out in Tyryagi, and the language of Tyrian halflings came to dominate the others, even though halflings filled the land above water and even had expanded cities into the depths of the earth and sea. This expansion into different areas became the source of the only recorded conflict between the halflings: "The First of Wars."
The First of Wars
A philosophical argument erupted between the rebellious group of "nature- benders," who ...[/INDENT]
and so on.
Given the wealth of information (even if it is speculative) in the book, you might call it a non-magical, non-psionic, non-lifeshaped artifact. Nothing supernatural about it, physically. But knowledge is power.
, but a few kinks:It lacks language luster. Rajaat would not say "Daskinor forged that", or rather, a very educated 21st century academician with mastery of the english language would not say that. Someone should review those texts before anything's done with them....obviously not me.
NytCrawlr had a similar problem with his Rajaat stories in that his pyreens spoke too modern a dialect, or were not enough formal. They seemed to speak with the same disregard for form that modern western people demonstrate. Just look at how people talk, even among themselves, in the movie Gladiator and you'll see there is form, even among slaves. In a world with no or very little writtings, the spoken word becomes the main way of communicating informations of all sorts, and that requires form.
In short I'm saying athasians may not be polite but they'll speak like romans and greeks did, with structure. Maybe Greyorm or Kamelion could shed light on this stuff, for I know nothing precise about it.
Also I stumbled at "grandparents" and "another world": grandparent, I believe, is a modern word, one that replaces a past term (more appropriate for Athas) like elder; and in the mythology of Athas there are no other worlds. Yes they can be reached through the Planar Gate, but AFAIK only Dregoth ever went to another world. If you want metal, go where there is metal on Athas, not to another world. Metal is not that rare for people with means, nor for people alive back then. Remember that there is no hint that Rajaat's three swords were made with anything else than Made In Athas® steel.
My opinion and how I feel it.
Also, Daskinor could have been the one to invent the Planar gate, or he could have succeeded with his percentile roll (As indicated in Defilers & Preservers), and successfully punched through the Grey, explored the multiverse, then decided to go back home, and made the Planar Gate to make the next trip easier.
Would that not contradict source material that makes clear that Kurn is governed by the tribunal and presiders? Or do you mean that Oronis governs as benevolent dictator in *New* Kurn, and that the flawed democracy is just for Kurn?
Then I'd imagine it would only be New Kurn. Of course I wrote that without any reference to the source material. Beyond some basics, I rarely refer to, or know, or care to know, what properly exists in the source material when I write. When I do know it, I pick and choose from whatever grabs my attention.
Also, Daskinor could have been the one to invent the Planar gate, or he could have succeeded with his percentile roll (As indicated in Defilers & Preservers), and successfully punched through the Grey, explored the multiverse, then decided to go back home, and made the Planar Gate to make the next trip easier.
[startled]
[checks to see if I had accidentally posted that part of WoS.]
[shrugs. I guess you came to the same conclusion that Oronis came to]
[INDENT]Some green age historians might dispute my statement that Daskinor was the greatest psionic nomads of the Green Age, but as best I can tell, each serious candidate for that title was an alternate edition of Daskinor. It seems that almost all of the Green Age’s “Great Nomads” suddenly began to exert great powers where they had none before. They shared other traits as well: they had ambitions to govern but did so incompetently, and where one starts to practice psionics right around the time and often in the area where the previous one had died Daskinor possessed the power and inclination to permenantly, forcibly, switch bodies with a younger, healthier person. This Nomad did not merely travel through space and time, but also traveled cruelly through other people’s lives, taking a young strong body in exchange for the one that he had worn out. Age after age, Daskinor would usurp the throne of some unfortunate country, using that same telepathic power; time after time, his incompetence would run the kingdom into the ground. After destroying a few nations he seemed to get the idea that his ideas were not working, and came up with a whole new set of bad ideas, and so it condinued.
When I trace the line stolen lives correctly back to its starting point, I find Daskinor born in the vicinity of Dragon’s Crown Mountains, early in the Green age, at a time when psionics was unknown. Like Rajaat said, he was born in a cave. Humans, elves, and other races at that time still kept the oral histories, knew that their ancestors had been Halflings, and that these cousins looked down on them from their mountain strongholds, traveled in floating houses with all the comforts of advanced civilization while humans, elves, dwarves, and other “race-traitors” scratched out a living in the mud. Daskinor probably looked up with envy at the great floating vehicles of the Halflings. Halfling cities in the sky, Halfling cities in the deep, while Daskinor stands naked in the mud.
Psionics changed everything. Telepathy, distant communication, ability to take groups of people and travel quickly —these powers win wars. The New Races took ground from their Halfling cousins, and captured marvelous technology. Most of it they did not know how to use, but the captured halls themselves became the palaces from which empires were governed.
Ancient writings attribute the conquests, fall, and rebirth of the Tanysh empire and other marvelous events a “series of great Psionic Nomads.” A gnomish merchant-lord suddenly develops the ability to carry entire caravans from one place to another through a psionic circle … and yet despite fabulous profits, managed to destroy his merchant house with infighting. The ancient merchant-lord is visiting the city of Kaladesh, and dies there, and within weeks a human princess in Kaladesh displays the ability to stop time for her convenience. I saw Daskinor’s ugly footsteps in these stories, because when Rajaat forbade us all to take other bodies, and removed the capacity to switch bodies from Daskinor’s psyche, telling Daskinor that “a thousand bodies names is enough. I cannot let you give your champion’s body to another creature.” Something else that Rajaat said to Daskinor sticks in my mind:
Yes, you were the first of my students, but the slowest. You had mined the canyons of Ral, you had cast habaled into the swirling eye of Guthay, I had such hopes for you, but the worst of my students outpaced you in simple transmutations. If you had not been so useful, I’d have wearied of you before you cast your first mending spell.
To this day, I don’t know who or what habaled was. But Daskinor’s slowness in learning magic probably saved his life, since Daskinor was the one surviving member of Rajaat’s first set of apprentices and prospective champions, hundreds of years before I was born. Daskinor was also the only one of us who had learned preserving magic before he had become a defiler. From what I was able to probe from a few Shadow-halflings, there had been an earlier batch of students, because Rajaat preferred to tap power from the Grey rather than create a set of defiler-champions. Ages later when I was preparing to become a champion, Rajaat still deferred to Daskinor’s knowledge about the Planes. Over the ages as Rajaat’s servant, I never heard Rajaat ask any other persons to inform him on matters arcane or psionics. With such power, why did Daskinor give so much up to become a champion? Perhaps immortality allured him; perhaps he was tired of living one failed life after another.
The shadow-giants observed that Daskinor only became a competent wizard after drastically reducing his psionic prowess. It seems Daskinor helped to create some powerful psionic mirror. To become a champion, he cut of thousands of years of accumulated power and experience, tossed that part of his own psyche aside, like ballast from one of those Halfling air-ships that he had watched as a child, the way he sloughed off a body he had worn for sixty years, to take a younger one. Daskinor never became as powerful in the Way as he had been before becoming a champion. When he looks in an ordinary mirror, does Daskinor ever see the lives that he left behind?
All of the champions had heard of Daskinor’s psionic mirror, the “planar gate,” it was called. Sielba searched for it until Rajaat told her she was wasting her time — that the mirror had been built before most of the world had even heard of magic, and had disappeared a few centuries later, as the “Age of Magic” begain in earnest. Sielba said that the mirror possessed the power to summon powerful allies (perhaps gods, if such creatures exist), and the fiends of the ancient stories. I cannot think of any other power that Daskinor could have used to frighten Borys from taking his levy. Yes, Borys was frightened. Neither the Dragon nor any of the other champions ever again came past the southern edge of Trembling Plains. They gave Daskinor such a wide berth, that Kurn was spared the Dragon’s levy. What else could intimidated the Dragon and Champions, after they had imprisoned Rajaat and killed Dregoth? Surely no simple bluff. Daskinor would have had to demonstrate the mirror; he must have brought something through that seemed more terrible than the Dragon. And once he brought it through, how could he have controled it?
So this is why I risk war by sending my best spies to the most dangerous place on Athas. Before she disappeared, I had … a spy who had infiltrated Daskinor’s handmaidens. She discovered that Daskinor keeps shards of a broken mirror trapped within a permanent arcane force-wall, and gives conflicting orders that his templars and defilers study the shards, or that they stay away from the shards, depending on what direction his fears are blowing at the time.
I need to know what came through that gate into this world, and whether it is still here.
Does a broken mirror mean that the gate is closed, or that it cannot be closed?
Exactly what is Daskinor afraid of?”[/INDENT]
-“Wisdom of Sorrow,” by Oronis.
Oronis correctly points out that as a stage II dragon, Daskinor had no chance in actual combat against Borys, a Stage X Dragon, let alone against all of the other champions who had together slain Dregoth and imprisoned Rajaat himself. Oronis is also right that the Planar Gate is the only artifact in Athas’ history that Daskinor could have used to intimidate Borys when he came to Eldaarich, and to intimidate the other champions into shouldering higher shares of the levy. But Oronis is mostly wrong about the planar gate. While Daskinor may have been involved in its making, its other makers took it to the place now called the Groaning City. The gate was captured by Dregoth many ages ago. So what happened? How did Daskinor scare the dragon, and how did Daskinor lose his mind:
One possibility:
Daskinor was trapped. He had a tremendous desire to just take another person’s body and run somewhere to start over again, like he used to in the old days. Of course, today that would leave his dragon body in the clutches of someone else, and he would lose his immortality. His city was disintegrating with his poor rule and the sweeping changes in the climate. The sea of muck seemed to be turning into a sea of dust. And the Dragon was coming. A third of his people had run away after the first levy; Eldaarich might not survive another levy. His own handmaidens would desert him. Even if he managed to keep Eldaarich through a second levy, the Dragon would be back for a third, and a fourth; Daskinor would eventually fail to fill the levy, and the Dragon would kill him.
Unless Daskinor struck first. He was weaker than Borys, but over thousands of years, Daskinor knew a few tricks that might even deceive the Dragon of Dragons.
The ancient Tanysh used to say that when the Gods wish to punish us, they make us believe our own lies. The easiest way to deceive a telepathic tenth stage dragon, is to modify your own memory until you believe what you want him to believe. Daskinor so sincerely believed that his faccimile of the Planar Gate was real, that when Borys refused to leave, Daskinor did something that he never anticipated. He attempted to open the mirror. Nothing happened. Stricken with panic, and past the point of no return with Borys, Daskinor flung all his psychoportive power into what he believed was a planar gate … Daskinor felt a gate open, and the mirror shattered. When Daskinor came to what remained of his senses, Borys was gone, and had already persuaded the other champions to increase their own levies and to give Eldaarich a wide berth. It seems that something did come through the gate after all.
What came through the “gate?” Did Daskinor, a powerful psychoporter, actually open a conduit to another plane, letting in fiends powerful enough to defeat Borys? Or did the effort splinter Daskinor’s mind along with the mirror? Many sorcerer-kings are figuratively tormented by inner demons. Did the confrontation between Daskinor and Borys give substance to Daskinor’s inner demons, and set them loose upon his city?
Then I'd imagine it would only be New Kurn. Of course I wrote that without any reference to the source material. Beyond some basics, I rarely refer to, or know, or care to know, what properly exists in the source material when I write. When I do know it, I pick and choose from whatever grabs my attention.
I try very hard not to overlook any sources, even when they appear to contradict each other. I find that sometimes one can spin a good story out of the contradictions. But then I'm not a fundamentalist reader either; I assume that everything comes from a subjective source.
I think that given his experience being duped by Rajaat in the Cleansing Wars, Oronis would be the first person to question dogmatic answers to complex questions. He'd be the last one to say something like "don't confuse me with the facts."
Another point --- call me a cynic, but I'm not sure you can keep a secret as big as New Kurn for centuries, without killing anyone. Control of information on that scale requires some exercise of violence.
Another point --- call me a cynic, but I'm not sure you can keep a secret as big as New Kurn for centuries, without killing anyone. Control of information on that scale requires some exercise of violence.
You can when you are a sickeningly powerful wizard and psion. I think I covered that in a post, didn't I? Hrm, maybe not in this thread.
Basically, what's to stop Oronis from using his telepathy to "show dissenters the light"? Good or bad, you can judge for yourself, but I would bet Oronis would argue it is necessary to keep his people safe, it isn't hurting anyone -- that is it is better than violence and murder. It is a good act because he is protecting his people without hurting anyone to do it, he's actually making them all stronger.
I realize this may not go over well with Americans and libertarians
but if your morality is one where violence is less acceptable than restrictions on freedom, or where absolute freedom isn't a sacred cow, then it's perfectly acceptable and even morally defensible.I can think of a number of arguments and situations where taking away someone's freedom of choice is more acceptable than killing them, especially where your solution protects and also adds to society. Frex, it would be just like reprogramming criminals for more socially-acceptable and less dangerous, criminal behavior. He's adding to society rather than meeting out violent justice.
Or heck, what's to stop him from dropping a huge spell of forgetting around the borders of New Kurn? Once you move outside its boundaries, your conscious mind forgets everything it knows about the valley, the city, the avangion, etc.
Well, that's two possibilities that don't require violence to enact. Or, yeah, he may use "necessary" violence, but isn't that the same argument the other SK's use to justify their behavior? Would Oronis want to distance himself as far as possible from their philosophies for fear of slipping into old behaviors, even after all this time?
What came through the “gate?” Did Daskinor, a powerful psychoporter, actually open a conduit to another plane, letting in fiends powerful enough to defeat Borys? Or did the effort splinter Daskinor’s mind along with the mirror? Many sorcerer-kings are figuratively tormented by inner demons. Did the confrontation between Daskinor and Borys give substance to Daskinor’s inner demons, and set them loose upon his city?
Interesting stuff. Have you seen my write-ups of Daskinor and Nibenay, their connection to the Black, the Hollow and Rajaat's prison, and all that?
But it brings to mind the question: is Daskinor's madness the effect of one (or more) of his shadow-selves taking over control of his mind/body at random because of this little event with the mirror and the Dragon and some unknown side-effect of such?
No, but it sounds interesting. I'm still waiting for your response to my 2 emails last week, btw.
"You can when you are a sickeningly powerful wizard and psion. I think I covered that in a post, didn't I? Hrm, maybe not in this thread.
Basically, what's to stop Oronis from using his telepathy to "show dissenters the light"? Good or bad, you can judge for yourself, but I would bet Oronis would argue it is necessary to keep his people safe, it isn't hurting anyone -- that is it is better than violence and murder. It is a good act because he is protecting his people without hurting anyone to do it, he's actually making them all stronger."
Sure; I'll agree that some ends do justify some means. I'll agree that such an act could be seen as good because the ends are worth the means, or you can argue that mental coercion will probably be "nonlethal," but I don't think you can argue credibly that psiomagical mental coercion is "nonviolent," any more than **** or encarceration is "nonviolent."
I'm not sure where you get "taking over control of his mind/body." Nor would I consider rejecting the Dragon's Levy a "little" event, although it may not have caught your attention before.
I'd consider all of the Champions to have been at least slightly insane, except possibly for Hamanu who did not become a champion by choice, and I wouldn't stake a lot of money on his sanity either.
I don't see the "Fragments" as the cause of Daskinor's insanity, but rather part of the reason that Daskinor's insanity affects the city so directly, as the WC describes. At this point, the fragments are probably more sane than Daskinor is. :D
Well, if the whole thing does show up in your inbox, please forward it. I'd love to see the whole thing too.
I'd be more than happy with a fragmented manuscript! :D
No, but it sounds interesting. I'm still waiting for your response to my 2 emails last week, btw.
I'll see if I can dig it up. Hopefully it was something I wrote after I started keeping local copies of stuff I'd written given the laughable search function on the boards. Ah, you're in luck, I do have it, or at least part of it. I'll try to put that up on a webpage sometime for everyone to peruse (or if someone finds the original thread that would be good as well, it may be more detailed/more fully explained than my notes).
As to the e-mails, I don't know if I ever recieved them. Could you resend?
...I don't think you can argue credibly that psiomagical mental coercion is "nonviolent," any more than **** or encarceration is "nonviolent."
Are you suggesting that (frex) jailing a criminal is a violent (ie: wrong, bad, morally corrupt) behavior? Or are you not making a distinction between "force" and "violence"? That's what the argument would be, here: that not every act that violates someone else's freedoms is a violent or immoral one.
I'm not sure where you get "taking over control of his mind/body."
From the shadow-selves, connection to the Black, etc. stuff. It is extending supposition based on the material I'd written up.
Here's the quick-and-dirty: the Black contains a possibly endless number of "shadows" of Athas, twisted reflections of people, places and events. It gets weirder, more alien, more nightmarish the deeper into the Black you go, and it isn't a grab-bag you can just reach into and get whatever you'd like out of. It's more difficult and more dangerous than that.
Regardless, this means the Black contains reflections of all the Dragon Kings, too. Shadows of themselves that completely differ from the original. If these shadow-selves have all been shoved into Daskinor's mind, it explains his madness -- his contradictory behavior -- as Daskinor's personality, thoughts, memories and so forth all shift between these personalities.
If there are lengthy pauses between his proclamations, it merely means none of the shadows (nor Daskinor himself) has the strength to break the psychic "surface-tension" generated by the constant battle for control of the body, and only occasionally one gains the upper hand.
So, here's further supposition: supposing he did reach into a mirror and pull his shadow-selves out...enough of his shadows that he would be able to fight Borys (since one would need a host of sorcerer-kings for such a feat)?
But the effort was too much, or some of them were stronger than he expected, or he got something he wasn't expecting at all, or all of the above...regardless, the mirror shattered, he couldn't put them back in and they all ended up trapped in his head (or worse, roaming the Trembling Plains).
Or maybe he just found ONE shadow. One shadow where HE was the Dragon instead of Borys, and he brought that shadow into this world, tried to integrate it with himself -- or take it over like he used to do -- to make himself as strong as the Dragon. Or something else just as terrible.
I think that would certainly give the Dragon pause.
Nor would I consider rejecting the Dragon's Levy a "little" event, although it may not have caught your attention before.
I'm afraid you're taking my phrasing far too literally. I'm using a small bit of ironic contrast, by referring to a very large, important event as "little" -- frex, if I were to say, "Hey, that little event back in the 40's, you know, the second World War." or something similar. I'm not actually saying it is a small or unimportant event.
Are you suggesting that (frex) jailing a criminal is a violent (ie: wrong, bad, morally corrupt) behavior? Or are you not making a distinction between "force" and "violence"?
I'm not making the same distinction that you make. Killing in self-defense is violent, but very few societies have described killing in self defense as wrong, bad, or morally corrupt.
That's what the argument would be, here: that not every act that violates someone else's freedoms is a violent or immoral one.
Again you equate immoral to violent, and I don't see your basis. There's at least one Dark Sun source, Darkness Before the Dawn, IIRC, that describes unsolicited mental contact as "mind ****."
If we redefine violent to mean only violence acts that we think are wrong, then what's to stop us from saying that killing certain people isn't "violent," and therefore not wrong?
[INDENT]Here's the quick-and-dirty: the Black contains a possibly endless number of "shadows" of Athas, twisted reflections of people, places and events. It gets weirder, more alien, more nightmarish the deeper into the Black you go, and it isn't a grab-bag you can just reach into and get whatever you'd like out of. It's more difficult and more dangerous than that.[/INDENT]
Makes sense.
[INDENT]Regardless, this means the Black contains reflections of all the Dragon Kings, too. Shadows of themselves that completely differ from the original. If these shadow-selves have all been shoved into Daskinor's mind, it explains his madness -- his contradictory behavior -- as Daskinor's personality, thoughts, memories and so forth all shift between these personalities.[/INDENT]
Ah. I'm seeing Dask's problems as that he was nuts in the first place, and then the few strong qualities that had been holding him together, left him with his personality fragments.
[INDENT]If there are lengthy pauses between his proclamations, it merely means none of the shadows (nor Daskinor himself) has the strength to break the psychic "surface-tension" generated by the constant battle for control of the body, and only occasionally one gains the upper hand.[/INDENT]
I could see that.
[INDENT]So, here's further supposition: supposing he did reach into a mirror and pull his shadow-selves out...enough of his shadows that he would be able to fight Borys (since one would need a host of sorcerer-kings for such a feat)?[/INDENT]
My supposition was that Borys just saw what seemed to be fiends coming out of the mirror, Daskinor thought they were fiends, and the fragments themselves thought they were fiends. So Borys decided not to fight that fight.
[INDENT]But the effort was too much, or some of them were stronger than he expected, or he got something he wasn't expecting at all, or all of the above...regardless, the mirror shattered, he couldn't put them back in and they all ended up trapped in his head (or worse, roaming the Trembling Plains).[/INDENT]
Ah -- so you are seeing that he pulled them from the black into his mind. I'd pictured Dask pulling them from his mind, leaving part of him missing, and the other parts, roaming his city.
[INDENT]Or maybe he just found ONE shadow. One shadow where HE was the Dragon instead of Borys, and he brought that shadow into this world, tried to integrate it with himself -- or take it over like he used to do -- to make himself as strong as the Dragon. Or something else just as terrible.[/INDENT]
Ah -- now that's interesting stuff. I'll have to play with that.
[INDENT]I think that would certainly give the Dragon pause.[/INDENT]
Indeed!
[INDENT]The Trembling Plains Region
The Trembling Plains serves as the buffer zone between the rival “Lost Cities” of Kurn and Eldaarich, and the hunting grounds where Red Guards track down those who wish to escape Eldaarich and the Dim Lands. The Trembling Plains extend from the southern edge Kurn’s verdant belt, south past Azeth’s Rest, and then curve north in a J-shape to the northmost edge of the Ringing Mountains. Bordering on so many lands, and offering generous grazing for herd animals and mounts, the Trembling Plains has become host to conflicts between creatures and peoples that otherwise would never have met. Some of these conflicts have become seasonal events, as Trin from the hinterlands follow mekillot herds up the Trembling Plains, and then attack herders, towns, and forts along the sea of silt when the game begins to run out.
The plains are essentially flat, with occasional hillocks and expanses of rocky barrens and stony wastes in the east along the Silt Sea coast. Ancient riverbeds run across the plains and the great north-south trade road reaches north through the eastern side of the region.
Along its eastern marches, the plains suffer from periodic silt storms or shamals, and in the North, the plains gradually give way to the rocky badlands and foothills of the White Mountains. As one travels west towards the Ringing mountains, human herder clans give way to similar Plains Giant clans.[/INDENT]
-Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains, Alpha release anticipated 2006, if I can get the official reviewers to get back to me on time.
I'd put the map up, but I can't do attachments here
Will this link work?http://wiki.athas.org/index.php?title=Trembling_Plains&oldid=1943&printable=yes
You've probably seen the early drafts of my short story, "The Price of Freedom in Eldaarich," the one with the Aarakocra and the baby, since that piece has floated around the internet for five years, like Wisdom of the Drylanders, so I won't post that.
In case you're planning on sojourning in Eldaarich, you might want to know some of the legal concepts:
[INDENT]“Riot” Any gathering of two or more people that makes a templar nervous.
“Espionage:” knowing something that you are not supposed to know.
“Sedition”: voicing disagreement with Rules or Policies, or to describe events that highlight apparent failures of Rules or Policies.
“****” To have sex with a person without the consent of that person's head of household or approval of a templar. (Whether the person actually consents is legally irrelevant).
“Rebellion:” Refusing to obey a templar.
“Insurrection:” Obeying a templar who was later found to have acted beyond the scope of his lawful authority.
“Treason:” Sympathizing with an enemy of the state.
“Resisting arrest” failing to obey verbal instructions after being clubbed into unconsciousness.
“Defamation” Saying something unflattering about an important person.
“Aggravated Defamation” Saying something true about an important person.[/INDENT]
Some cultural color:
[INDENT]What Your Father Told You: A Haleban Templar to a Child in his Orphanage
Master, who are we?
We are King’s Daskinor fortunate subjects.
What other sorts of people are there?
There are no other people. Some slaves and foreigners look like people, but they are not people. All people are humans, but not all humans are people.
Some slaves don’t look like us
There are different sorts of creatures. Human, dwarves, muls, and then others that are not even fit to be our slaves.
What are “foreigners”
Humans and other intelligent creatures that live outside of the King’s protection and laws. They are devils, and it is only the King’s magic, stone walls, and sheer force that saves us from their malice.
What is law?
I am, sweet child. That’s all you ever need to know.
What does that mean?
It means that if you do what I say, i won't hurt you.[/INDENT]
More culture:
[INDENT]Names:
When a human child turns one year old, the Haleban give that child two names for identification purposes, and neither of these names relates to the family. The Haleban brand the first name on the citizen’s index finger, and the second name on the citizen’s middle finger. The Haleban rotate the names so that the same two names will only be given about once every 77 years. Anyone living over 77 years in Eldaarich is expected to kill themselves; those that insist on clinging to life are deemed a nuisance and denied their food ration. (“Eldaarich can only recognize the existence of one Citizen named ‘Uleb Kadras.’ One cannot expect the Takrits to keep track of which Uleb Kadras has collected his food chits for the month!”)!)
Some resourceful Eldaarish elders skirt the problem by assassinating their young “name usurper” in the cradle.
The brands also allow Eldaarish citizens to make an effective signature, called a “nameprint.” To sign a document, an Eldaarish citizen typically draw her own blood with a bite, and then imprint her branded name backwards inside a bloody fingerprint. (since ordinary citizens, nobles, and slaves are forbidden to write, or even to own writing materials, most of these illegal documents are also painted in blood). Most Eldaarish templars use ink, paint, or sealing wax to sign their documents. The Neshtap and Kulag prefer to sign in blood for stylistic reasons, even though they paint their messages with inks like other templars. On the other hand, the Neshtap and Kulag have access to blades, and do not need to gnaw themselves to leave a nameprint in blood.
Dress: Only a few in Eldaarich have access to magic or psionics that protects them from the Grey Death, and even fewer would dare advertise that fact openly, since magic is forbidden to non-templars, and since those who openly practice psionics are shut away or killed. Consequently, most citizens wear the wet rags called silters during the majority of days when silt fills the air. Some robbers have taken to ripping the silters off their victim’s face, since it’s easier to take advantage of a victim who is gasping for air rather than fighting back. Hence, most citizens have taken to wearing thick heavy hoods. Eldaarish robes leave only the hands uncovered. so that they can identify themselves.
Nakedness identifies slave status, and allows others to see who owns them through their brands and marks, and prevents all but the most resourceful slaves from concealing weapons. Hence, slaves are barred from wearing clothing, except for some field slaves who are allowed to wear protective hats or footgear. never , and are not tracked or registered by the Haleban They are not considered to be people. It is possible that Eldaarish citizens cover themselves from head to toe because they associate nudity nakednudity naked with slave and criminal status. Condemned citizens are always stripped naked for execution, and the executioner keeps the clothing. The executioner often gets permission to keep the family of a condemned prisoner’s head as a trophy; shrunk heads are typically pickled or shrunk through a special alchemical process, and hung from a beltprisoner are enslaved in the undervillages or necklace.
Markings: Since silters make facial recognition impossible, Eldaarish citizens identify themselves to others by raising their branded fingertips as if in the salute. Citizens who work for a living often wear work glove with the index and middle fingers templars cut off the former citizen’s index and middle fingers at the top knuckle so that they can identify themselves.
Citizens are forbidden to tattoo or mark themselves in any way; that is the prerogative of the Haleban templars, who mark up children and other citizens as they see fit, writing reminders to the citizen on the backs of his hands and arms, and recording the citizen’s “record of behaviorbenavior” for the sake of other templars, on the citizen’s back. A templar talking to citizens in a street will frequently humiliate them by stripping them to read the tattooed record of behavior on their backs.
Slaves are never branded anywhere on the hands, and Haleban does not track or register slaves. When the family of a condemned prisoner are enslaved in the undervillages or in the slave brothels, the templars cut off the former citizen’s index and middle fingers at the top knuckle.
Architecture: The older Eldaarish homes have blockish, small windows and doors, with flaps of leather or fabric that can be tightly tied over the openings to defeat silt. All dwellings except those of the templars and nobles are colored grey. The houses of nobles are painted tan, rather than the typical grey, and they are often marked with an abstract symbol in three or four colors. These symbols were originally the crests of the noble houses which lived there, but over the King’s Ages the coats-of-arms have been gradually forgotten and now only colored logos remain. Nonetheless, the current occupants keep the logos freshly painted, as a status symbol.
All of the newer buildings in Eldaarich have large domed windows in the ceiling, as a sign to King Daskinor, whose complex looms above the city, that this family has nothing to hide from the King. Some of the nobles’ buildings on the Southwest ridge actually build their entire eastern wall out of glass. In practice, the Savak often use these windows to keep an eye on the occupants, and those in windowed houses are actually subjected to fewer random searches.
The houses of templars are generally light blue in color, though the Neshtap buildings are tan with dark red borders around windows and doors and along the corners and roof line. Many citizens give the sign of the evil eye when passing a Neshtap structure, saying that the structure looks like a sunburnt skull. The Haleban Order, is officially responsible for maintaining the city’s walls, buildings, and public facilities. The Neshtap Order provide the bulk of the city’s building material, from the craft villages.
Ownership of Property: According to Haleban teachings, King Daskinor has adopted all Eldaarish citizens as his own children, and feeds and shelters them, and distributes property among them as he sees fit. In practice the “head of household” has power over any Eldaarish family’s property, and has the power to sell family members into slavery. Few Eldaarish citizens actually own their own homes; most pay a modest rent to the nobles who own the land that the citizens’ ancestors have lived on for generations. When money is hard to come by, citizens often trade service and sometimes even sell their children as slaves, in order to avoid eviction. Other citizens pull strings with the Haleban or with other orders, to prevent the nobles from evicting them.
A few commoners have purchased their land from nobles in order to free their families from subjugation, but legal property transfers are difficult and expensive, requiring both Haleban and Takrits approval. Obviously, only citizens can own property. Farmlands outside the city walls are never sold, as they are held to be the King’s property held.
Occupations: Officially, Eldaarish citizens need no occupation; their needs are taken care of by the Haleban and the Takrits. Each Eldaarish head of household is supposed to receive an allowance of ceramic “chits” with which to obtain food and water from the Takrits, and other goods from the Haleban. In practice, only Haleban cult members receive this allowance regularly, so citizens either need to find employment in one of the templar orders, offer day labor for the Haleban work projects, offer some sort of service, or enter the black market or otherwise involve themselves in crime.
The most common occupation in Eldaarich is civil servant. Nearly a full third of Eldaarish adults work for one of the seven orders in once capacity or another. Officially, it is surprisingly easy to become an informant for Savak or Haleban, although the pay, at least at first, is meager. Shtaas is always on the lookout for recruits, most of which come from the Haleban orphanages and have no interest in settling down with an ordinary family. Most Shtas recruits spend twenty years in the military, and most of those that come back alive, do so with whip-scarred backs, crippled limbs, and addicted to drugs given them by their morale officers, the Shtas Browncloaks.
..........
Funerals: The Red Guards patrol the streets of Eldaarich, not merely to "keep the peace," but to collect corpses, as they do in the craft villages. Families are not supposed to have any farewell ceremony with their dead, but to turn their bodies over to the Red Guard as soon as possible. This policy was originally an ill-conceived attempt to reduce the number of undead in the city. In fact, this policy had the opposite effect.
There are no open cemeteries in the city of Eldarich. The cemeteries of Eldaarich’s first six hundred years, most of them located on the southern shore of Eldaarich island, have slowly fallen into disrepair and abandonment. Many of the tombstones on the southern coast are damaged, either due to neglect or the giant invasion of six King’s Ages ago. Those ancient Eldaarish tombstones display the deceased’s name and rank, and share the distinguishing feature of a sharp point on top of the stone. This sharp point can either be literally sculpted or figuratively represented with a carving of a chevron or mountain. In either case, the point represents the belief among the tribesmen that Daskinor originally recruited for his army that in the afterlife their spirits would rise to the mountain peaks, to be received by the spirits of wind and snow. Daskinor encouraged this belief, contrasting it to the “blasphemous” goblins who tunneled beneath the mountains, and so further whipping up the fervor of his army. Even today, the people are taught that after the Neshtap bring the bodies to the Takrits, that the Takrits take the bodies of worthy Eldaarish persons up into Daskinor’s “mountain” compound.
This teaching is a lie. Eldaarich’s dead are not buried, but are animated by the Takrits and sent to work the fields. This practice was begun in the wake of a labor crisis four hundred years ago, when regular burials were abandoned. Corpses beyond use fall apart and are plowed into the fields as fertilizer. Only templars (and nobles, who still have friends in the templarate and can purchase the favor) are actually buried – this practice is secret (even from Daskinor), and the crypts are located in the dungeons and catacombs dug beneath the templar forts.
“Don’t think that dying will get you any reprieve from your work. We’re not done with you.”
-Takrit defiler, speaking to corpse of a slave that committed suicide.
“Efficiency and low-maintenance is the beauty of this system As the flesh falls off the bones, it plowed into the fields as fertilizer, but the skeleton continues to work. Eventually the skeleton too begins to break apart, and adds itself to the ground as bone meal.”
-Introduction to Nobility, the Takrits orientation manual for newly appointed nobles.
[/INDENT]
Wow. That's more than I planned to post. Oh well, there are 70 pages more at this point, and plenty of dark secrets to reveal. Much of the above may change before publication, but I'm eager for feedback, and if I get anything useful here, I'll probably keep posting.
On the bright side, I'm confident that I will have a presentable alpha of the Trembling Plains and of Prison State of Eldaarich out this year, and probably also Silt Sailors of the Kulag Fleet, which we just broke out of PSoE. Isn't about time we had some great pictures and adventures that involve silt skimmers?
Second... I like what I see so far. Really, good stuff there. I can't wait to see more of it. I like the layers of detail that are defined, through a subjective viewpoint of an individual who seems to spend way too much of his time in introspection, questioning everything including his very existence. Nice way to portray Oronis' mindset and personality.
Daskinor... well... from what I've read, I really like the direction you are going with him. Making him be potentially the oldest of the Champions (and possibly even predating Rajaat?), plus wandering the planes... no wonder the guy went nuts, the amount of baggage he must drag around in his mind... the whispers of the voices of his mind-victims always on the edge of his consciousness (as I'd figure they are), and the things he had witnessed in other worlds... I'd guess his mind was always just on the brink of insanity long before the confrontation with Borys.
Anyway, like everyone else who has mentioned it, I'd like to see more.
Good to see you, Dark Helm! I guess all this is about to be erasedm and they've given us a new place to talk at.
Then I guess I'll repost on the new site.
1 - this could really use a proofread
2 - official word is that Daskinor became SK of Eldaarich AFTER the Rebellion against Rajaat (and thus after the wars with the goblins), so the little bit of "whipping up the fervor of his army" seems a bit out of place (and time). Also, seem to remember at least 2 different ideas in developement referring to Eldaarich as belonging to the goblins before the coming of Daskinor. Although I'm not completely sure where I remember seeing this info (well, one was definately Penn's Screaming Maw - the magical mace of Daskinor; not sure if this is to be included in the Equipment Guide, though), I still think it might be something to consider as it seems a rather decent idea.
According to the revised and expanded book, since Raam has been thrown into chaos (they haven't added good ol' Dregoth) Draj has been trading with Kurn and Eldaarich the most. I really do doubt that Atzetuk...or the people controlling him, would turn down a great source of trade because they are haveing a conflict. I think the Draji would lean towards whoever contributed the most to their economy. For some reason i think eldaarich would have more slaves then Kurn...considering New Kurn is aggainst slavery IIRC and Kurn is being slowly evacuated. I also seem to recall the slaves and beasts of burden sell for top dollar in Draj...so i'll have to say that they'd remain open/aide Eldaarich.
Except the WC is very clear that Eldaarich refuses to deal with *anyone* other than House Azeth.
[INDENT]"Also I stumbled at "grandparents" and "another world": grandparent, I believe, is a modern word, one that replaces a past term (more appropriate for Athas) like elder [/INDENT]
Some languages did not have a specific word for grandparent, and some still do not, but many languages did. In the birth of the Green age when humans still spoke halfling, they would have had more words for specific family relationship words than English, Français, Español, and Deutch combined. Rajaat was a pyreen. Come to think of it, since Rajaat was speaking to all his Champions who probably came from different backgrounds and langauges, he'd have used more universal language, so would have referred to Daskinor's "Mother's Parents" rather than his grandparents. Thanks.
Terminus: "Brax, I volunteer to do any 3.5 conversion work and such that you'd be willing to throw my way!"
Terminus, check out the other thread, "Audition for a statblock writer," and consider it "thrown your way." Or proof some of the stuff that I've put here, or figure a way to say it in fewer words, or more memorably. If you do well, I'll send you more!
Hi Squidfur!
I'm glad you're enjoying it, since I just emailed you last night about this. Did you receive my email?
I can honestly say that I'm really liking what I see so far Brax. Two comments though:
1 - this could really use a proofread
Yup. That's one of the things I asked if you would do in my email to you yesterday. Did you receive it?
2 - official word is that Daskinor became SK of Eldaarich AFTER the Rebellion against Rajaat (and thus after the wars with the goblins),
To which source to you refer? IIRC, the history document that WOTC circulated said that Daskinor was either the first or one of the very first to exterminate his target race. Agreed that it was ages after the war with the goblins. Hamanu's the one that was brought in later, to replace Myron, not Daskinor. Hamanu also finished his race earlier than most SKs, but IIRC Daskinor finished considerably earlier, possibly even before Rajaat replaced Myron with young "Manu of Deche."
[INDENT]so the little bit of "whipping up the fervor of his army seems a bit out of place (and time). " [/INDENT]
? I'm not sure what part you are quoting.
[INDENT]Also, seem to remember at least 2 different ideas in developement referring to Eldaarich as belonging to the goblins before the coming of Daskinor. [/INDENT]
Although I'm not completely sure where I remember seeing this info (well, one was definately Penn's Screaming Maw - the magical mace of Daskinor; not sure if this is to be included in the Equipment Guide, though), I still think it might be something to consider as it seems a rather decent idea.
I read it, and plan to send it to Will when we start statting up Daskinor, which is the absolute last piece of project development on my list. If you accept yesterday's invitation I'll send you the team's conversation so far on the Screaming Maw.
[email]squidfur@peoplepc.com[/email] - just in case
OK, I just re-sent
email#1 FW: Greetings from Brax
and email#2 FW: email #2: FW: Squidfur, We'd ...
Please let me know if they arrive.
-brax
-brax
I really enjoyed your write-ups on both Daskinor and Oronis. I had a similar take on their relationship as well.
In my own write-up of the Cleansing Wars, I had Dwarves playing a big role in Daskinor's Army. I think that it makes sense that both Rajaat and the Champions would exploit various racial hatreds in order to further their own ends. I hope that this is an idea you might try to incorporate into your own vision of the Cleansing Wars (I imagine that your write-ups will probably become the "Official Histories").
I would be more than please to collaborate on this project (I have lots of ideas on Daskinor / Eldaarich and I don't think that they compliment your material nicely...) PM me if you are interested.
When you talked about the Dragon being scared away and never coming back, I really tried to think what could be so powerful. Of course, outer planar demons and monsters came to mind, but that just didn't "feel" right to me. However, the one thing that would probably scare the very life out of the Dragon is Rajaat himself. If I understand correctly (it's been a while since I looked at the source material), Rajaat's body is trapped in the obsidian orb, and his essence is in the Black. Maybe Daskinor's planar gate created a passage for Rajaat's essence to come back to Athas. And perhaps Daskinor had to smash the artifact as Rajaat began to come through, trapping a part of his essence into the mirror shards. (I could see an epic story / campaign unfolding here...)
Lastly, I was also under the impression that the Blue Age was actually not Athas's first historical era. In fact, I had the feeling that the Blue Age was the aftermath of a cataclysmic flood (think Noah's Arc). Perhaps this catastrophe was brought on by "world-spanning" acts of barbarism not unlike the Cleansing Wars. The Gods could have flooded the planet to punish it's inhabitants, and then deserted it. Maybe Rajaat was trying to recreate this carnage in order to instigate a second "flood".
itf
Lastly, I was also under the impression that the Blue Age was actually not Athas's first historical era. In fact, I had the feeling that the Blue Age was the aftermath of a cataclysmic flood (think Noah's Arc). Perhaps this catastrophe was brought on by "world-spanning" acts of barbarism not unlike the Cleansing Wars. The Gods could have flooded the planet to punish it's inhabitants, and then deserted it. Maybe Rajaat was trying to recreate this carnage in order to instigate a second "flood".
I've worked with the notion myself that the Blue Age really isn't the first age of Athas. Brax's write-ups suggests that Oronis doesn't necessarily think it is either, but that it really doesn't matter in the end. While I'm not fond of the idea of Gods on Athas, there could have been something deep in the past, before the Blue Age, which did in fact deal with why Athas got trapped in the Gray, and Gods became lost to Athas.
But I've pretty much assumed that the Halflings didn't start out with lifeshaping and a full culture, but could have developed on Athas (like humans developing on Earth), and lifeshaping was the culmination of their technological prowess (I love the idea that Athas was originally sci-fi, and then lost all of that later).
Anyway, it is a discussion for another thread... don't want to derail this thread completely
For Eldaarich which I haven’t played in yet, I had three ideas:
1. A caricature of Sparta:
‘Take up any world history textbook and read; you'll find that the Spartans were "an armed camp," "brutal," "culturally stagnant," "economically stagnant," "politically stagnant," and other fun things.’
2. Panoptic city: very open, everyone is as visible as possible to prevent secretive behaviour
3. A city that is outfitted with ‘stone dividers’, plates of stone that slide out of roofs and walls so that parts of the city can be completely closed off, e.g. when there is a rebellion or a fire or an attack from above.
Lastard >8)
Lastard >8)