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| #1ajsJun 06, 2006 14:01:25 | I was looking over Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss's writeup and it seems that there's some good stuff in store for the Greyhawk faithful! First up, the list of Demon Lords that are written up. I don't recognize all of them, so they may not all be Greyhawk-descended, but most of them appear to be.
There are also 15 layers written up, several of which have been part of Greyhawk's history. To me, this sounds like Wizards testing the water of continued genericification of the Greyhawk mythos. I'm not thrilled with that, but to be frank, I'll take just about anything that gets me a fix at this point.... Then again, some of these have already gotten extensive coverage (probably more than the book will have) in Dragon. |
| #2erik_monaJun 06, 2006 15:13:41 | While the book is not a Greyhawk book, it works perfectly as the Abyss _for_ a Greyhawk book. References to Iggwilv, Zagig, Eclavdra, Istivin, the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, etc. abound. --Erik |
| #3mortellanJun 06, 2006 15:55:00 | First up, the list of Demon Lords that are written up. I don't recognize all of them, so they may not all be Greyhawk-descended, but most of them appear to be. That list seems skimpy to me. Naturally the ones that interest me are the ones that haven't been covered in Dragon already (Yeenoghu and Malcanthet would be directly useful to anyone running Dungeon's Maure Castle). I wonder now from what you say if this is a 'Reader's Digest' version of the Demonomican of Iggwilv series? I'll likely get this book nonetheless, I use demons too much not to. |
| #4ripvanwormerJun 06, 2006 16:14:55 | And, to reuse a line, he Zagygged Marduk! |
| #5ajsJun 06, 2006 17:47:18 | That list seems skimpy to me. Well, I'd rather have a short list and more comprehensive coverage if possible than another dozen entries. Also, keep in mind that the demon princes share space with a list of generic demons, demonic feats, descriptions of specific levels and even more specific locations. (all of this is based on my perusal of the PDF table of contents which is available for download as a zip file from the Wizards site, and may not be an accurate depiction of the content). PS: Erik, thanks for the reply, and yes that's kind of what I meant when I called it a genericization of Greyhawk. It seems that Wizards' M.O. these days is to move Greyhawk specific items into the "Core" as non-world-specific elements. That's good in the sense that we get updated material for old Greyhawk creatures / people / places and (IMHO) bad in the sense that it bodes poorly for the possibility of a change of heart with respect to actual Greyhawk material in the future. (I think) I know where you have stood on this issue, and I won't pester. I know you do your best for the setting we all fell in love with back in the day. |
| #6zombiegleemaxJun 06, 2006 17:58:22 | I have any number of complaints regarding Hordes of the Abyss and Greyhawk's shoddy treatment as the core setting but hey, who am I kidding, of course I'll buy this book. |
| #7gv_dammerungJun 07, 2006 15:36:59 | The list is skimpy. And the Demon Princes have all been deballed, reducing their strength (CR) so they can be swordbait for 20th level parties "because no one plays epic." Of course, "but you can scale them." What a pantload. Years of D&D mythology s it-canned for convenience, which amounts to an admission that D&D3X is hopelessly broken at higher levels. So we get a bowdlerized lot of DPs, waste of space, waste of effort. Better we get a 4E that actually plays at the levels advertised. One must hope that Mona and Jacobs were just "following orders" when they wimped out the DPs. God knows what else is in store. If the Hells volume takes the same limp dicked approach, I may be moved to anger. |
| #8ajsJun 07, 2006 16:30:55 | The list is skimpy. Again, would you rather have a few in detail or 6 per page with a quick stat block and a layer number? I'd much prefer the kind of loving detail that I've seen in Dragon's demon articles to a slap-dash attempt to list as many as fast as possible. And the Demon Princes have all been deballed, reducing their strength (CR) so they can be swordbait for 20th level parties "because no one plays epic." Ah, so now it becomes clear... you want more entries and what you really care about is the stat block. You're looking for swordbait for what, 25th level parties?! Bah. I'd rather they leave the stat blocks out entirely, except for the fact that I know the book would never sell. If you're dealing with anything other than an avatar of a demon prince, you're either history or you're not getting out through force of arms. Such creatures of mythological proportions are intended for role playing encounters, not roll playing. waste of space, waste of effort. Do better. If the Hells volume takes the same limp dicked approach, I may be moved to anger. Terrifying. I'll make a note. Meanwhile, my copy is still on pre-order, so I can't comment in as much detail as someone like yourself, who obviously has an advance copy of a book that won't be released until June 13, but everything I've seen so far is promising, and let's face it: this is as much Greyhawk as we're going to get from WotC for now..... |
| #9samwiseJun 07, 2006 18:34:23 | Let us note: Juiblex has "dropped" from CR 20 in the BoVd to CR 19. Yeenoghu has similarly "plummeted" from CR 22 to CR 20. Both were previously swordbait for a 20th level party. Even Graz'zt only managed a CR 24 in the BoVD, and would thus be in range of an uppity 20th level party. Let us also remember that Q1 had a 14th level party gacking Lolth back in the old days. And, for anyone who didn't bother to check the table of contents preview, the demon lord section begins with a section on aspects and making epic level aspects. Heaven (or Abyss) help all those deities in the Miniatures Handbook whose aspects are CR 9-12. A 10th level party will be annexing the outer planes any minute now! |
| #10ripvanwormerJun 07, 2006 19:04:57 | Again, would you rather have a few in detail or 6 per page with a quick stat block and a layer number? The book contains both. Both a section with a relatively few statted demons and a lot more demons who are mentioned but not fully statted. |
| #11mortellanJun 07, 2006 23:50:11 | More name demons listed, that's a relief. The politics of hell and the abyss depend on more than just the DP's. Lowered CRs, yup, I will use the BoVD stats if ever it does come to combat. DP's should be treated like the Dark Lords of Ravenloft. In 2E I recall they were unkillable on their homeplane and had other lofty abilities. With that in place it wouldn't matter what their stat block or CR was. |
| #12MortepierreJun 08, 2006 3:07:50 | And, for anyone who didn't bother to check the table of contents preview, the demon lord section begins with a section on aspects and making epic level aspects. Heaven (or Abyss) help all those deities in the Miniatures Handbook whose aspects are CR 9-12. A 10th level party will be annexing the outer planes any minute now! Er.. no. "Aspects" are exactly that. A kind of lower-lvl-than-the-original-copy which can get involved in a brawl with adventurers without destroying their world entirely. I doubt even a 40th lvl party could take a div-rank 1 deity in its full glory and win. Not without some artifact up their sleeves at any rate. BotR (from Green Ronin) has a stereotypical tale about such an event where a circle of epic wizards gated to the outer planes to explore the home of a god. They mopped the floor easily with the god's minions till the deity itself showed up. Not impressed, they tried to bind it. All the deity had to do was utter one word and the wizards were reduced to gibbering heaps of flesh. It amazes me that after all these years the "please publish another Deities & Demigods book 'cause we've already killed all the gods of the first one" syndrome still exists at some tables (note: I'm not saying this for you Sam, it's a general comment). Besides, for those who seek Abyssal (and Hellish) lords of epic-earth-shattering might, there is always Dicefreaks... |
| #13gv_dammerungJun 08, 2006 8:27:23 | Examining the dumbing down of demons, four difficulties immediately present themselves: 1) Absolute value and consistency. Demons have had their absolute power or CR reduced in Fiendish Codex Vol. 1 Hordes of the Abyss. This reduction is absolute, without respect to how much any individual has been reduced. By one measure, it is fair to say that the cachet associated with demons as Big Bads has been lessened; the are less Big and less Bad. More importantly, there is no meta-setting explanation for why demons are suddenly less powerful - they just are. This is an issue as between editions but also an issue even within just the current edition. There is now an unexplained inconsistency that sees demons suddenly less powerful. Such an inconsistency effecting such iconic creatures needlessly throws a spanner into the meta-setting. Of course, some may rationalize it all away with - “We’ll just assume it always was that way” - which however intellectually vacuous may not be an issue, unless you have been using the demon princes at their former power levels, in which case your game now has need for adjustment. 2) Comparative power in 3rd Edition. In the 3X version of the game, it takes much less time to progress from 1st Level to 20th Level. Indeed, the 3rd edition concept of the “adventure path” thrives on seeing characters rise from 1st to 20th Level in a series of 12 to 14 adventures. A 20th Level character is then not the achievement or rarity it was in earlier editions. It is more commonplace and demons, reduced to being suitable opponents for 20th level characters to defeat, are rendered more commonplace in turn. This runs exactly contrary to how demons have been used and have developed within the D&D mythology heretofore. Demons, as presented, are no more tough than an appropriately advanced monster or player character. Demons place in the D&D mythology as opponents for player characters has been redefined to make them less special. 3) The illogic of lower power demon princes. Reducing the power of the demon princes creates internal inconsistencies when the Abyss is considered. Demon princes are now not that much more powerful than the creatures who they allegedly command and who allegedly fear them. Indeed, a number of other denizens of the Abyss are now intellectually on a par with the demon princes and more powerful, yet we are asked to believe that, without explanation, the demon princes somehow hold onto their positions and keep more powerful, equally powerful and nearly as powerful minions in check. Are demon princes now politicians among their own kind, ruling not through raw power and fear, but by coalition building and alliances among their chaotic evil fellows? Juiblex stumping for votes? Demogorgon proposing a ballot initiative? Grazzt invoking Roberts Rules of Order? The notion of lesser powered demon princes behaving in this way runs in the face of the prior mythology and is absurd on its face. By way of specific example, consider the Klurichir demon from the 3X Fiend Folio, CR 25, said to prey on weaker demons and to be tactically brilliant. Yeenoghu, picking a demon prince, is CR 20. Yeenoghu would be seen as weak by a Klurichir type. If the first Klurichir didn’t vanquish Yeenoghu, then the second, or the third, or the fourth, for Klurichir are not unique individuals but demons types. They will keep coming. Yeenoghu is toast at a lower CR, unless there is a good explanation. There is none offered in Fiendish Codex Vol. 1. 4) Planar mechanics. Demons are the physical embodiment of metaphysical evil and demon princes are the greatest such embodiments. Demons are not just another race, like elves or orcs or even githyanki or mindflayers. They embody all that is quintessentially evil. They are evil given form. What are the 20th level characters who may now reasonably contemplate killing a demon prince? They embody what metaphysical principle? None. They represent what? The successful accumulation of experience, treasure and the acquisition of magic items. And this alone qualifies them to take down the purest manifestation of a metaphysical concept such as evil? There is no logic to this. What is more, allowing 20th level characters to destroy the physical embodiment of metaphysical evil denigrates the very notion of metaphysical evil. It ain’t so bad if a 20th level character, having risen to that station in 12 to 14 adventures, following an “adventure path,” can put down an evil that has supposedly held all in fear for millennia. It simply makes no sense. Of course, individuals can house rule matters in their home games but such is irrelevant to the presentation as given, as The Rules As Written (RAW). The RAW of Fiendish Codex Vol. 1 is poorly thought out, inconsistent, illogical and without explanation undermines some of the greatest mythology in D&D. Such can be dismissed only by those who either have no appreciation for the planes as they have been developed in D&D or are Wotc apologists or are simply being contrary, refusing to note the state of the emperor’s new clothes. The commonly espoused rational that “no one plays epic and most games end at 20th level” in no way addresses the harm done to the D&D mythology and in no way addresses the above issues. It merely creates a justification based on the perception that most players and Dms would find lower powered demon princes “more useful.” Of course, this ignores the fact that heretofore demon princes have been found so interesting by so many and “useful” precisely because they presented the challenge that has now been reduced. Further complicating matters, the very same authors who wrote the Fiendish Codex Vol. 1, when confronted on the issue of lesser powered demon princes, opine that Dungeon and Dragon will continue to present demon princes as more powerful entities. While a sop, this method of proceeding creates further inconsistencies within the meta-setting. I would like to have individual(s) responsible for the decision to lower the CR of the demon princes step forward and demonstrate the courage of their convictions, even if they can offer no rebuttal worthy of the name. Who decided that the CRs should be lowered? |
| #14ajsJun 08, 2006 9:20:53 | Lowered CRs, yup, I will use the BoVD stats if ever it does come to combat. DP's should be treated like the Dark Lords of Ravenloft. In 2E I recall they were unkillable on their homeplane and had other lofty abilities. With that in place it wouldn't matter what their stat block or CR was. Well, that's kind of the thing, isn't it. The CR's are ignorable. These are some of the most powerful beings in the known cosmos. The CR really only applies if you find them alone, wandering in a back alley on the PM. Even a mortal king on the PM is more dangerous than his (probably meger) CR would imply because of his station, the defenses that will doubtless be in place around him (magical and mundane) and the (literally) legions of defenders that he will have. The same is true for DPs, except that in their case they literally command a layer of the Abyss as well. CRs on such creatures are there because the teenagers who play D&D are going to be ****** off and not buy the book if they aren't there. Most of this book is not about the DPs. I was only mentioning them because it was nice to see some old names that Greyhawk had introduced. When I get my pre-order, I'll be looking forward to the descriptions of the Abyss and the organizations and wars therein much more than the individual DP writeups. Who cares if one of them has a +50 attack? Who's going to ever get close enough to find that out in-game? On the other hand, a group of very high level adventurers in the Abyss, gaining entry to a DP's stronghold in order to find some bit of information that will thwart a scheme... now that could happen. That's where all of the flavor from this book will be critical. |
| #15samwiseJun 08, 2006 9:43:43 | Er.. no. "Aspects" are exactly that. A kind of lower-lvl-than-the-original-copy which can get involved in a brawl with adventurers without destroying their world entirely. And these are aspects. So what is the problem? BotR (from Green Ronin) has a stereotypical tale about such an event That is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. The rules are how you decide to make them. If you want PCs killing deities, they can. If you want them killing avatars or aspects, they can. If you want them doing neither, they lost automatically. As I noted, 14th level PCs off Lolth in Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits. It amazes me that after all these years the "please publish another Deities & Demigods book 'cause we've already killed all the gods of the first one" syndrome still exists at some tables (note: I'm not saying this for you Sam, it's a general comment). I know. And I'm not amazed. It's like the Everest Syndrome. "Why did you kill all the deities?" "Because they were there." |
| #16ajsJun 08, 2006 9:59:17 | It's like the Everest Syndrome. I'm of the opinion that the followup question should be: "And what did you do when the stars started going out?" No, deities are not physical beings. They are manifestations of ... well, that depends on the flavor of your game, but at the very least they are manifestations of belief. Without eliminating that belief, or without the intervention of an equivalently powerful force (e.g. another deity which is, in turn the manifestestion of belief), I don't see what "killing" a deity would mean. Your average DP should be able to hand you his sword, let you plunge it into his chest and then procede to banish you from reality. There's no such thing as a "fair fight" when it comes to such entities. They're not flesh and blood, and they're not even "simple spirits". They are something which, if you do it right, your players should not even be able to fully comprehend (I know that I can't get my head fully around the idea of a being that has complete control over an infinite realm). If you must engineer a game in which the goal is to kill a deity (like certain APs I can think of...) then you have to explain the mitigating circumstances to your players. You have to be able to say, "here's why the impossible is going to happen." Otherwise, you strip the mystery and majesty of the cosmos that the players construct in their minds, and turn it into a video game. At that point, deities are merely bosses that exist for the satisfaction of an itchy trigger finger. At that point, if a DPs CR bothers you, just pump 'em up with some bard levels and you're done. Heck, give 'em a bigger weapon. That always goes over well in video games. After all, what's a boss without a weapon that's so large that it shakes the ground when it strikes a shield? Oh, and it needs to send off sparks when it hits too! If that's what does it for you, then enjoy! |
| #17samwiseJun 08, 2006 10:06:08 | Examining the dumbing down of demons, four difficulties immediately present themselves: No they haven't. Their power is lower for five from the BoVD, but as no positive statement exists about what those write ups represented, the concept of the Aspect not yet existing. Even their status as deities was not established, with the possibility being open for them being granted Divine Rank 1 and changing their power. Compared to previous writes ups in 1st and 2nd ed, their power is significantly greater. 2) Comparative power in 3rd Edition. Irrelevant. Demon lords in 1st ed were significantly easier for PCs below 20th level to take out. I point again to Lolth being an opponent in an adventure for 14th level PCs. There are more. 3) The illogic of lower power demon princes. Reducing the power of the demon princes creates internal inconsistencies when the Abyss is considered.[/QUTOE] |
| #18samwiseJun 08, 2006 10:09:15 | I'm of the opinion that the followup question should be: "And what did you do when the stars started going out?" You should check that again. I said I wasn't amazed, and gave the reason why. I didn't say I ran games like that. |
| #19ajsJun 08, 2006 12:03:12 | You should check that again. Oh, no! I wasn't trying to imply anything. I was agreeing with you, and then running with my particular take on what that means to running games and/or publishing books. |
| #20gv_dammerungJun 08, 2006 12:41:13 | Samwise days ::snip:: a) 1 is less that 2. If 2 is reduced to 1, its absolute rank has been reduced. In absolute terms, the demon princes were reduced. The BoVD presented the demon princes stats as their stats with no caveat. You may suppose or attempt a retcon but on its face, within the four corners of the document - those were the demon princes. Nothing suggests otherwise. b) Comparative power in 3rd Edition is relevant as 3rd Edition presents its own internal "logic." By that "logic," reducing the demonlord's power makes them much more akin to just another monster. c) To the best of our knowledge, those are the demon lords as there is no caveat, nor even an official retcon. d) It is a matter of scale, not a zero sum proposition. Not all demons equally embody metaphysical evil to the same degree or their stats would not vary so widely. e) Sword fodder for 25th level parties, as opposed to 20th level parties, would be preferable as at least being more consistent with the nature of demons. Would it be perfect? No. I do not believe demon princes should be capable of being permanently slain by mortals. But since that isn't official, I'll take what I can get, so 25 is better than 20. (I think there is an echo in here. ;) :D ) |
| #21gv_dammerungJun 08, 2006 13:44:17 | I somehow missed this earlier but we have a mea culpa. It was not some Wotcer who decided to downgrade the demon princes but James Jacobs, the same James Jacobs who has written the Demonomicon entries in the Dragon. He did do for basically the reasons I recounted above and the stats were supposed to represent the demon lords when encountered off their home plane but that got left on the cutting room floor. The mind boggles but out of respect for those Demonomicon articles, I can't think of much else there is to say. ::shakes head:: |
| #22ajsJun 08, 2006 13:52:21 | a) 1 is less that 2. If 2 is reduced to 1, its absolute rank has been reduced. In absolute terms, the demon princes were reduced. Rank?! Well, if you are ranking creatures by CR, I suppose that's fine. You could also rank them by color or style of dress, but that's not really important either. In the end, if the CR of the DPs is the only complaint anyone has about this book, it will probably be one of the most overwhelmingly positively recieved books Wizards has ever put out! The BoVD presented the demon princes stats as their stats with no caveat. OK, so what? Does this book cause you to stop using those stats? You could print up a dozen different versions of any higher-order planar being, and reasonably argue that they're all true. These are not kobolds, these are DEITIES. If they have combat stats, it should be taken as a guideline only. There is no such thing as the one-and-only form of a deity unless there's some particular reason that that deity binds itself to such a stricture. In fact, what I've seen written up about the Demon Princes previously implied or outright stated that the forms they were generally known in were their "prefered forms". You may suppose or attempt a retcon but on its face, within the four corners of the document - those were the demon princes. Nothing suggests otherwise. And you too, can suppose whatever you like. The fact of the matter is that the books are laying out the details of a cosmology, not a set of laws of physics. If your cosmology doesn't have room to shape and mould it to your liking, then it's broken. e) Sword fodder for 25th level parties, as opposed to 20th level parties, would be preferable as at least being more consistent with the nature of demons. Why? What's special about 25th level? Why not 30th? 50th? 100th? 1000th? These demons appear in the forms that they do because they choose to. They appear in a form that is terrifying enough that they are not questioned by their followers (what demon would follow the orders of Demogorgon the toy pug?), and yet comprehensible enough that they can be related to (again, what demon would follow the orders of Demogorgon the hyper-intelligent shade of the color blue?) They appear as embodiments of the forces that they control and which in turn control them. In some cases, these forms relate to the pre-apotheosis beings which may or may not be substantially a part of the current manifestation depending on your setting, but do not mistake the one for the other. No mortal being or even typical demon could wield the power of a plane of the Abyss. To do that requires a transformation that is neither understood, nor guaranteed to preserve anything of the being that began it. But, if 25 would make you happier, than just rule that in your game, all Demon Princes have 5 levels of an appropriate class in addition to their listed stats. There, now you can be happy with the material in which I'm sure these stat-blocks are the smallest portion of the content. For my own needs, I think I would lower the stats a bit if I ever had a need for them. There is a tendancy to make powerful beings combat monsters, and I don't see any particular reason to do that in many of these cases. Zuggtmoy comes to mind as someone that doesn't need combat stats to be terrifying. |
| #23cragJun 08, 2006 16:55:14 | I am a little shocked at the obsession with stats; in my view no self-respecting Deity or Demon Lord would lower himself/herself to person combat with mortal beings, torture perhaps but to trade blows is just sooooo common. That's what their armies of followers exist for to handle petty problems like upstart PCs they have more important plans and concerns to handle. So regardless of there stats; you would never find a Deity or Demon Lord waiting on his plane so he can engage in combat like a common street thug, how humiliating! |
| #24cwslyclghJun 08, 2006 18:35:11 | So regardless of there stats; you would never find a Deity or Demon Lord waiting on his plane so he can engage in combat like a common street thug, how humiliating! what about XXackerion, Demon Lord of Common Street Thugs? :P |
| #25samwiseJun 08, 2006 23:15:28 | Samwise days ::snip:: Except you said "absolute value and consistency." Since the FC 1 contains (based on statements elsewhere, such as this months Dragon article on Kostchtchie) instructions on how to advance these, it is safe to say these are intended as a minimal representation of the demon lords. As such, in absolute terms, they have not been reduced, merely is this relative presentation. b) Comparative power in 3rd Edition is relevant as 3rd Edition presents its own internal "logic." By that "logic," reducing the demonlord's power makes them much more akin to just another monster. As the possibility of giving the demon lords divine ranks is explicitly stated, then by that very internal logic, they are made more powerful. c) To the best of our knowledge, those are the demon lords as there is no caveat, nor even an official retcon. Which behooves us to wait until we are fully informed before running off willy-nilly, complaining of something that might not even exist. For example, a sidebar on the stats for Kostchtchie contains this line: "If your campaign needs an even tougher Prince of Wrath, you can advance Kostchtchie's statistics even further, either using the method presented in Fiendish Codex I or the standard rules for advancing outsiders detailed in the Mosnter Manual." So obviously there is a caveat, and some other statement regarding them. d) It is a matter of scale, not a zero sum proposition. Not all demons equally embody metaphysical evil to the same degree or their stats would not vary so widely. So then there should be nothing wrong with an aspect of a demon lord being a mere CR 19-21. e) Sword fodder for 25th level parties, as opposed to 20th level parties, would be preferable as at least being more consistent with the nature of demons. Would it be perfect? No. I do not believe demon princes should be capable of being permanently slain by mortals. But since that isn't official, I'll take what I can get, so 25 is better than 20. Then given them a divine level. That is in fact an official option. |
| #26wolf72Jun 10, 2006 11:05:10 | I am a little shocked at the obsession with stats; in my view no self-respecting Deity or Demon Lord would lower himself/herself to person combat with mortal beings, torture perhaps but to trade blows is just sooooo common. I would guess there are times when you (er ... your aspect) have to get things done yourself ... you want it done right! (of course being an overconfident and thoroughly evil demon lord you'd never make any mistakes). I never noticed the description of 'Aspect of' before ... that makes things a little easier to support, the aspects are just avatars ... and you want to be careful how much power you divest in an avatar in case you loose it. I also like the idea of dumping on some N/PC levels on the Demon lord aspects |
| #27cragJun 10, 2006 18:37:51 | nice comment wolf I agree it can be justified if they are clearly avatars on the Flanaess however I thought the discussion was about the Demon Lords within there home planes. Perhaps I missunderstood... :embarrass |
| #28ajsJun 12, 2006 11:39:03 | I agree it can be justified if they are clearly avatars on the Flanaess however I thought the discussion was about the Demon Lords within there home planes. Well, we'll know more when the book comes out. For now, we've been told that info about the aspecthood of these writeups may have been left out either as an oversight or because of whatever constraints the book was published under. If that's the case, then the stats might be a bit low as written, but if you read the writeups as being for aspects specifically (on the Prime Material or elsewhere), then it should be fine. IMHO you should never use book stats for a deity when encountered in their true form / home. They simply can't be statted that way. For starters, they control their home plane. They can warp the rules of reality to suit them, and that's so much more powerful than anything that's statable that there's no real point in dealing with it directly. Also, using such stats would lead to thinking of the deity in question as a "monster". That's not what they are. They are embodiments of universal ideals of life, death, magic, disease, justice, revenge, virtue, vice, fate, etc. They should be enigmatic to the PCs, otherwise there's nothing about the cosmos that's a mystery, and that's just boring. Reducing the planes to "large dungeons with epic bosses" is for video games. |
| #29zombiegleemaxJun 13, 2006 13:08:44 | I've looked over the book for the past couple days and all it says about demon lord aspects are the ones put into the web enhancement, nothing about the ones presented in the book as being aspects. They do, however, talk about advancing demon lords and making them 'epic,' so there's a bunch of stuff that shows how to advance a demon lord. Looks like epic level stuff ain't getting the love it used to. The bit on the boards about these guys being aspects is starting to sound more like an afterthought, like they were just doing some damage control when people started getting ******, which, incidentally, is something the writers had better get used to because the book has already cheesed me off in any number of ways. Yeah, the rest of the book leaves much to be desired. The bit on the planes is quite cool and peppered with Greyhawk lore (it's obvious who wrote that section), but the feats, spells, and stuff on possession had me shaking my head in disappointment. The dark cult and its obsession with scrolls was kinda lame. Where were the magic items? At least Monte has the foresight to put them in Book of Vile Darkness. |
| #30ajsJun 13, 2006 15:51:27 | I've looked over the book for the past couple days and all it says about demon lord aspects are the ones put into the web enhancement Yes, that was explained earlier. It's been noted as something that was intended, but left out. Looks like epic level stuff ain't getting the love it used to. Well, I think the concern there is that only a tiny fraction of players ever bought the epic-level books, and the system changes so radically, that it's not really possible to mix pre-epic characters with epic content. The bit on the boards about these guys being aspects is starting to sound more like an afterthought No. First off, I've seen folks like Erik admit some really dumb mistakes when they make them. These are not shy people, nor the type to lie to make themselves look good. Second, the whole aspect thing has been in the pipeline for years. The minis are being published with "aspect of foo", the Dragon articles are being published with example aspects, etc. It's a trend, and this was the latest example. They dropped a line that should have been in the book is all. Read the book as if the line were there, and you'll be fine. ...the feats, spells, and stuff on possession had me shaking my head in disappointment ... Where were the magic items? You bought a book on the Abyss for feats, spellls and magic items?! Doh. |
| #31zombiegleemaxJun 13, 2006 20:35:19 | Well, I think the concern there is that only a tiny fraction of players ever bought the epic-level books, and the system changes so radically, that it's not really possible to mix pre-epic characters with epic content. I know dozens of players, all of whom bought the book. Guess that breaks your curve. You bought a book on the Abyss for feats, spellls and magic items?! Sure, why not? Book of Vile Darkness had stuff on the Abyss, the Nine Hells AND all of those aforementioned things. What's more, the content and page count were worth the money. This book, however, is hardly worth it whatsoever. Chapter 5 is the only saving grace, and that's mainly the stuff Mona worked on. Go figure. |
| #32ajsJun 13, 2006 20:58:25 | I know dozens of players, all of whom bought the [epic] book. Guess that breaks your curve. Why would you think that? It was a fine book, but very few people bought it when compared with any of the other books for the game. The epic stuff just doesn't enter most campaigns. Wizards tries to shy away from publishing anything that's useful only to epic-level players for that very reason. Book of Vile Darkness had stuff on the Abyss, the Nine Hells AND all of those aforementioned things [magic items, feats, etc] Well, if you're looking for that kind of thing, there are already quite a few books to choose from. I'm personally quite happy to have a book that doesn't waste space on yet another dozen or more magical baubles, but actually sets some ground for campaigns. This is not a book for players. This is a book for DMs who are developing campaigns that involve the Abyss. If that's not for you, then feel free to go buy Complete Mage later this year. I'm sure it will have all the player goodies you were looking for. Templates are something that would be nice, and I got the impression there aren't any. That kind of rots, but I'm sure everyone has their pet things they'd want to see, and there's only so much room in a book. What's more, the content and page count were worth the money. This book, however, is hardly worth it whatsoever. Chapter 5 is the only saving grace, and that's mainly the stuff Mona worked on. Go figure. Well, he is pretty impressive, but I'll hold my judgement on the rest of the book for now. The demon and DP writeups will probably give me ideas for the latter third of my SCAP campaign. The locations are key, though, and your high praise for them makes me want this book all the more! |
| #33AmarilJun 15, 2006 7:27:14 | I'm sure someone has mentioned this already, but I don't care to read through a thread of whining to find out. From what I recall, the point of making the demon lords with lower CRs but capable of advancement was to cater to campaigns and adventures that don't typically go to such high levels. Personally, my Greyhawk campaign was going to have a level cap of 20th level (not everyone plays or likes epic-level play), but they'll only reach 17th or so when I reboot. I'd love to have a demon lord that the PCs can defeat as the climax of the campaign, but the old CRs don't allow for that. The scalability makes the demon lords more usable and accessible for all campaigns. Anyway, it makes more sense to me to allow the demon lords to be scalable. If you're campaign allows for higher level play, then scale them. If your campaign assumes the PCs are the highest level characters in the world, then use them as is. As far as other monsters in the Abyss that could overthrow those demon lords, cripple their statblocks or take them out completely, or advance the demon lords (if you're playing epic level games, then you're probably used to the number crunching anyway). |
| #34ajsJun 15, 2006 9:18:40 | I'm sure someone has mentioned this already, but I don't care to read through a thread of whining to find out. From what I recall, the point of making the demon lords with lower CRs but capable of advancement was to cater to campaigns and adventures that don't typically go to such high levels. You will want to read the Web ehancement that describes how the DPs have been modified, why and how you should use it. The book provides scaling info to move the abilities up to the stats listed in Dragon, but the default writeups in the book are for aspects that are around 20th level because this is the most genrally useful range for DP aspects in most campaigns. |
| #35qstorJun 19, 2006 8:11:17 | Erik good job btw. Its a great book. I got it on Saturday. Quick question - how come no mention of Iuz? Mike |
| #36ajsJun 19, 2006 9:17:30 | Erik good job btw. Its a great book. I got it on Saturday. Quick question - how come no mention of Iuz? This book really pushes the boundary for WotC in terms of publishing Greyhawk material without explicitly calling it out as such. I'm not sure that he would have wanted to fight the Iuz battle, given that it might have endangered the book even happening. He kept the scope clearly set on The Abyss, and it covers that material well... I think. That is, I'm still fighting with Amazon over their claim that they don't have to ship me the copy that I paid extra to get on the 15th because I somehow selected "group my order with the red dragon figure that doesn't ship until September, even though the screen shows that each item will be shipped as available." Grrrr.... |
| #37erik_monaJun 19, 2006 14:36:47 | Iuz is mentioned on page 118, under the description of Graz'zt. We didn't stat him up or deal much with him because he is first and foremost a Material Plane menace. --Erik |
| #38ajsJun 19, 2006 18:59:24 | Iuz is mentioned on page 118, under the description of Graz'zt. We didn't stat him up or deal much with him because he is first and foremost a Material Plane menace. *bow* I stand corrected. See my note about Amazon having dropped the ball, and my not having the chance to read the darned thing yet. Oh, but the good news is that they finally admitted that they had a software problem, and they've upgraded me to next-day shipping. I should have it soon. Thanks again Erik. It's good to see another former Compleat Strategist patron doing so well! |
| #39MonteblancoJul 28, 2006 13:25:24 | While the book is not a Greyhawk book, it works perfectly as the Abyss _for_ a Greyhawk book. References to Iggwilv, Zagig, Eclavdra, Istivin, the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, etc. abound. I finally got a chance of checking this book out. I have no problem with the CRs and find the locations and demon descriptions to be quite interesting. However, it is kind of irritating to see how far WotC editors went to avoid any reference to Greyhawk in this book. I read references to Iggwilv, Eclavdra, Iuz, and Istivin and all of them avoid to refer to Greyhawk, although the word "Oerth" is refered once. Instead the text refers to his or her prime material plane or something like it. I will pass, but it seems to be a good book. I'm just very strict about my D&D purchasing these days. |
| #40erik_monaAug 04, 2006 21:43:14 | Since the book included no direct ties to the city of Greyhawk there really wasn't much of a point to mention Greyhawk at all. I am certain that I could have if I wanted to, since references to Istivin, Iggwilv, etc. abound. I think your standards are set perhaps a bit too high. --Erik |
| #41MonteblancoAug 05, 2006 16:58:09 | Since the book included no direct ties to the city of Greyhawk there really wasn't much of a point to mention Greyhawk at all. I am certain that I could have if I wanted to, since references to Istivin, Iggwilv, etc. abound. You may be right. I am aware that I'm more intolerant nowadays than I was a few years before. |