Somewhere over the horizon

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Ogrebear

Jun 19, 2006 7:53:32
I was wondering if anyone has done a 'future timeline' for Greyhawk? The sort of thing I am wondering about is a timeline that plans out what might happen in the world, and alternative future history if you will- the sort of thing common in sci-fi where 1830's writers tried to predict what the world would be like in the 1980's....

Does Iuz conquer all? Do the Scarlet Brotherhood revive/suceed/etc? Does LN the Montesser Orc colony survive? Any Gods step down/die/fall?

You get the idea I hope.
#2

zombiegleemax

Jun 19, 2006 8:09:54
Shameless self-promotion, I know, but...

The Flanaess in 645 CY
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=631


There's also a thread about this somewhere on Canonfire forums.

P.
#3

max_writer

Jun 19, 2006 11:13:16
Dragon Magazine #277 had an article called "Greyhawk 2000" which details the world (very sparcely) in that year.

Here are some of the entries from my own Timeline from that article (in Common Year):

644 - Formation of House Broadhammer in Crystalmist Mountains.

998 - Pluffet Smedger the Elder compiles his glossography of the Savant-Sage’s Guide to the World of Greyhawk. (This is actually from the original Greyhawk Boxed set/binder)

1605 - United Counties of Urnst formed by marriage of Duchess of Urnst and Count of Urnst.

1917 - Dwarven automobile Citicar introduced

1932 - House Broadhammer enters Southern Alliance; Unitied Counties of Urnst join Southern Alliance.

1946 - DiM weapons begin to be manufactured by human lands in the New Flanaess.

1969 - United Counties of Urnst leave Southern Alliance.

1970 - 7585 House Broadhammer leaves Southern Alliance.

1992 - Falling Plague ravages suburbs of Elton and Carrialle, claiming nearly 4,000 lives before being stopped by priests of Pelor.

1998 - Chute mishap results in crash that kills 20 of 115 passengers on proj.

Somewhere in there is a great war against Iuz that saw the Old One's lands essentially nuked.
#4

extempus

Jun 22, 2006 3:55:10
In my campaign, there's a chronomancer from an undefined future time (possibly 500 to 1,000 years hence) who has taken an historical interest in our characters and observed them on some of their adventures. Obviously, magic is still in use then, and he's actually a kind of a rogue time traveller, having been asked to join the Monitors of Infinity and refusing. Other than that, I've not defined anything else about future Greyhawk other than the fact that Ragnarok will occur eventually (not necessarily in the classic Norse sense, but that there will be an all-out war among all the Powers in the multiverse that will result in the demise of most, if not all, of them)...
#5

OleOneEye

Jun 24, 2006 0:40:55
The Empire of Iuz seems doomed to eventually fracture itself apart. Though Iuz does gain lesser godhood and descends to the lower planes.

Open warfare will break out between Ahlissa and North Kingdom. My money is on North Kingdom with its much more centralized power structure.

The Scarlet Brotherhood can keep its Empire intact only as long as it can maintain dominance of the Azure Sea. That dominance seems to be rapidly waning.

Thillronian barbarians fade into obscurity as they refuse to update their longboats.

Keoland conquers the Sea Princes and annexes it as another puppet state.

Turrosh Mak's empire degenerates. Greyhawk conquers the southern Wild Coast. The Ulek states, with Keoish support, slowly and systematically eliminate the humanoid dominance of the Pomarj.

Zief / Ekbir war in which all Baklune states take part. Zief's vast wealth proves the victor.

Furyondy looses prominance as the powerful nobles prevent consolidation of power by the king.

Nyrond's monarchy gains in strength, weakening the nobles. It becomes the most powerful nation in the Flanneass. Nyrond pushes into Aerdi lands, first annexing Innspa, then various Ahlissan lands.
#6

Mortepierre

Jun 24, 2006 2:37:45
Open warfare will break out between Ahlissa and North Kingdom. My money is on North Kingdom with its much more centralized power structure.

I wonder about that. First of all, the Highlanders have all but revolted so that's already one elite unit they won't have.

Second, the various humanoid mercenaries are all kept busy in the Bone March with what's happening there. So, little to no help there.

Third, while the Northern Kingdom is indeed more centralized, Ahlissa is the richest of the two and so can afford to hire mercenaries to bolster its armies.

Fourth, the SB is happy (for now) to have a divided Great Kingdom. While it's doubtful it would help Ahlissa win, it wouldn't allow it to fall either.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jun 24, 2006 6:13:43
I'd go with Mortepierre's assessment. The North Kingdom might be more centralised, but:
(a) The NK has a lot of problems externally and internally aside from Ahlissa (Bone March; Rinloru);
(b) it's economically quite isolated (any trade route west either has to go through Ahlissa, the risky route through the County of Knurl and on into Nyrond or the even riskier route north via sea to Ratik and over the Rakers into the Pale; while it can trade by sea with the Suel to the north and the Compact to the south, Ahlissa is still the elephant in the room commerically);
(c) Ahlissa has the edge in terms of manpower (Ahlissa: 3.8 million; NK: 2.6 million).

The North won the first Turmoil Between the Crowns because it had a genius in command in the form of Ivid I and because the Crandens and Rax were decadent, scattered and disorganised by 80 years of peace. Things are very different this time. The Darmens may look like soft merchant princes, but they're a far more cunning, resourceful and united than the Rax ever were. They'll carry the Haxx (because their power depends on the Darmens) and the Crandens (because they have a historical grudge against the Naelax that outweighs their grudge against the Darmens) with them.

Reydrich of Zelradton is a possible spoiler - but given his betrayal of his own kin in 587 CY, I don't see him having a lot of sympathy or common cause with Grenell or Strychan of Dustbridge (Grenell's likely successor, though Grenell may not be aware of it yet), unless Darmen fortunes decline to the point where Reydrich can quickly take control of Ahlissa by stabbing Xavener in the back. He probably wouldn't do that though because it would shatter Ahlissa. The Darmen and Haxx princes would never tolerate a Naelax overking, and while they battled it out with Reydrich, the Crandens would probably withdraw from the Kingdom and fend for themselves. All this would hand victory to the North and Reydrich would sooner see his northern cousin's head on a pike than submit to him as overking.
#8

crag

Jun 24, 2006 11:16:12
Well said; the definite impression I got from the LGG; Ahlissa was on the rise and NK was barely holding together. If not for the real danger presented to the kingdom by the humanoid "allies" the human nobility would have shattered long since.

The economic position of the two states mirrors the political one, Ahlissa power increasing and NK still precarious.

I find it telling that both states made a play for Innspa loyalty and Countess Karasin despite close ties to the nobles of the NK especially Stychan chose to ally herself with Ahlissa, ItU she was protrayed as quite intelligent and politically savy.
#9

OleOneEye

Jun 26, 2006 17:20:05
After the fall of the Great Kingdom, virtually all power shifted to local princes - with the exception of North and South Province. I see Xavener as having ceeded an incredible amount of power to local princes in order to secure their loyalty. After the depredations of the Overking and the naked power play by Reydrich, the princes would be very hesitant to allow Xavener to have too much power.

The economy of the United Kingdom is in shambles, and will take quite some time to stabilize. As of 591 CY, few have recovered to where they were in 580 CY. That so, given enough time the economy will recover. North Kingdom will be unable to match the mercenary and heavily equiped regular forces of the United Kingdom when this occurs. All the more so if Rel Astra elects to join the United Kingdom - as it surely will if the United Kingdom recovers economically while Rel Astra doesn't.

Rinloru must be crushed and the Bone March stabilized before North Kingdom can realistically expect to win the impending war. Fortunately, I see both occurring within the next few years.
#10

zombiegleemax

Jun 27, 2006 10:24:15
The Ahlissan princes can limit Xavener's powers internally - yes, that's true. However, he has a fairly free hand on external matters. Moreover, the structure of Darmen loyalities (see Ivid) means that Xavener will have to screw up and hurt the interests of the Darmen princes before they'll move against him (even if the princes of Torrich and Nulbish are no particular fans of his). Equally, the Haxx prince of Naerie owes his position to Xavener, and is unlikely to bite the hand that feeds him. Finally - Xavener has the support of the Royal Guild and (most of) the Church of Zilchus, so long as he promotes their interests by fostering trade and the recovery of the economy.

So - while his position is weak relative to the absolute despotism of the Ivids, Xavener isn't a powerless puppet of the princes. It's in the interest of no Ahlissan prince, merchant or merchant-prince to see a Naelax overking ruling from Eastfair.

Overking Grenell may have more centralised power than his counterpart in Kalstrand, but he also has more serious direct internal threats. As of 591 CY (according to LGJ dispatches) the NK siege of Rinloru seems to be weakening, rathering than strengthening. It seems likely that just containing Rinloru is occupying the resources of three major cities - Winetha, Atirr and Delaric. Rinloru isn't going to fall without a serious exertion by the North Kingdom. Then there's the problem of the Bone March (ironic, given Grenell's role in the fall of the House of Vir) and that's not going away soon - especially if the North Kingdom finds itself weakened by the effort of retaking Rinloru. I don't see either of these problems being easily resolved.

There's also the matter of the succession. Grenell will die sooner or later and he has no heir. Fortunately for the NK, its very weakness is an advantage here, since none of the other princes will want to kick off a civil war that'd open the door to an orcish invasion/undead breakout. That's where an enterprising, ambitious (and desperate) noble like Strychan of Dustbridge comes in. If he can decapitate Grenell's regime relatively bloodlessly, then he'll be able to whip the other princes into line fairly easily with the threat of the disintegration of the state otherwise (as a Naelax, he shouldn't have too much difficulty in getting the support of Montand of Delaric and Hastern of Edgefield anyway - in return for suitable concessions of course).

Economically, Ahlissa is in a far better position to recover from the disasters of the 580's than the North Kingdom. Firstly, it has more resources and more labour. Secondly, it's better positioned for trade with the central and western Flanaess (overland into Nyrond and overseas via the Relmor Bay and Azure Sea ports). Thirdly, it's in Xavener's direct interest to keep his cousins and allies in the House of Darmen, the Royal Guild and the Church of Zilchus happy by supporting economic recovery and a strong trading position for Ahlissa.

By contrast, the North Kingdom is relatively resource poor (few metal resources except for the orc-treatened mines around Belport; relatively poor soils, except along the Trask and Upper Flamni). As noted above, its trade links to the central Flanaess are either tenuous (via Knurl) or dependent on Ahlissa.

The position of Rel Astra and the Sea Barons is interesting. With the Tilva Straits closed to them, they're largely dependent on Ahlissa for trade with the central Flanaess. However, between them, the Compact and the Barons do control the sea lanes between the Aerdi Sea and the southern edge of Grendep Bay (the small NK fleets notwithstanding). If the Barons and the Compact combine and can develop trade with Hepmonaland or with the states on the Far Shore of the Solnor. It's possible they could survive for a time as an independent entity. In this scenario, they might side with the NK against Ahlissa. If they remain economically dominated by Ahlissa - then they'll be blockaded into neutrality at best or active support for Ahlissa at worst. Once Ahlissa has the north, the Compact will have little choice but to return to the arms of the motherland.

Though the SB might wish it otherwise, the second Turmoil Between the Crowns isn't imminent. Ahlissa is too busy rebuilding its economy and naval presence in Relmor Bay and the Azure and Aerdi Seas. The North Kingdom is embroiled with internal problems that have to be resolved before it can even think about going toe-to-toe with Ahlissa. I don't see a serious war before 600 CY - and by then Ahlissa will have the upper hand, I predict.