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| #1the_stalkerJun 21, 2006 11:32:32 | The MML seems pretty dead these days, so I'll post here as well... My apologies if you've already seen this. Does anyone recall if there is any official or even semi-official (such as in the MAs) word on where the various elven clans from former Alfheim settled in Karameikos? In PWA2 there is an event for Yarthmont 24 called "Stefan Awards Dominions", which says that one elven clan receives a stretch of the Radlebb Woods east of Koriszegy Keep, while other Alfheim elves receive the Achelos Woods and Riverfork Woods (aren't those the same and just the Achelos Woods?) on either side of the Cruth River. I've looked in the Vaults, but they don't seem to have topic on this matter, unless I missed something (which is entirely possible). If we follow "The Shadow Elves' Invasion of Alfheim" by Fabrizio Paoli and Hervé Musseau - http://pandius.com/invasion.html - then the Alfheim clans in Karameikos are Chossum, Feadiel, and Red Arrow. Bruce Heard said something to the contrary once in Dragon, I believe, but which did not seem to make sense in light of later information, since he apparently said that one clan going to Karameikos was Erendyl, whereas the Almanacs later say that Doriath is in Wendar, which would seem very odd. So I'll accept that the Alfheim clans in Karameikos are Chossum, Feadiel, and Red Arrow. But are the above lands two or three dominions? And if they are three, how does that fit with the comment in WotI's timeline (book II, page 85) that Stefan will award the elves dominions in lands that are already occupied by the Dymrak goblins, which would suggest the Dymrak Forest, and which would place the elves in the path of possible retalitation from Thyatis? Have these clans split apart even more? I would assume the Red Arrow clan would have no problem staying and taking on the goblins on the Dymrak Forest, since they are dedicated warriors. Clan Feadiel would seem more likely to seek to isolate itself as much as possible, which seems more likely in the Achelos Woods, and which is away from central Karameikos and closer to the Five Shires (and especially after the Black Eagle is gone). On the other hand, Clan Chossum might prefer to stay closer to central Karameikos in the Radlebb woods where the can trade with both humans and the Calarii elves... Any thoughts to the contrary out there? Or just any thoughts at all... ;) - The Stalker |
| #2CthulhudrewJun 21, 2006 13:25:50 | Just sent you a reply on the MML, but I'll post it here for others to comment on as well:Does anyone recall if there is any official or even semi-official You pretty much have hit the only sources, "canon" and Fanonical (Hey! I just made a word!), on the issue. As you noted, all of them are in conflict. IIRC, the first "official" word came from Bruce Heard in one of the Known World Grimoires (or Q&A session of VotPA) where he gave suggestions for which clans went where. Unfortunately, as you point out, at least some of these are contradicted in some of the Almanacs that come out later from TSR. Not the first time some of Bruce's information in Dragon was contradicted though- a lot of his "errata" for PWA 1010 that he noted in the Known World Grimoire didn't seem to have been incoporated into the later almanacs either. Then later, when putting together the first MA, Fabrizio Paoli came up with yet another division of the elves, as it were. The later MAs all went with Fabrizio's divisions, so that is the most recent word on the matter. In PWA2 there is an event for Yarthmont 24 called "Stefan Awards Presumably the notion of Riverfork and Achelos being separate came about due to the split between the two of the Riverfork river, but yeah- prior to that, I think they were always just considered one forest. If we follow "The Shadow Elves' Invasion of Alfheim" by Fabrizio Paoli Well, bear in mind that Doriath is the king of Alfheim, and not the clan head of the Erendyl clan, so him going one way and his clan going the other is not necessarily that out of the realm of possibility. He would, of course, go wherever he needed to try and maintain the greater community of elves- and given the proximity of Karameikos to Alfheim, and the distance between there and Wendar- he might well decide it is more important to stay with the groups that have traveled the farthest from their home, who might have more need of continuity of leadership and culture than elves who stay very close and remain with elves who are closer in society and nature (the Callarii) than the Wendar elves. I know that Fabrizio had the Erendyls going to Wendar, and they've currently (last I checked) largely ended up back in Glantri, with their Erewan brethren (which, frankly, probably should have been the first place they went). My own opinion- I think the Chossum would definitely remain, either in Karameikos or in Darokin (given their mercantile background). The Red Arrows, determined to take back their land (being militantly inclined) would likewise remain. The Feadiels, I could argue either way- they might be tired of running and remain to either take back their home or stay close and not make an epic journey like their migration from the Sylvan Realm. Alternatively, if Moorkroft has been defeated in CM7, they'd probably just go back to the SR- as might many other elves. The Erendyls, as I noted, should probably have just gone to stay with their cousins the Erewan in Glantri, until they could get on their feet. The Grunalfs- I'm kind of split, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did, too. I could see these hunters and trackers going with the groups that went north, to serve as guides and protectors. I also wouldn't be surprised to see some of them stay to help the Red Arrows take back their forest and prevent its further destruction. Perhaps we would get a split like the one that splintered the Erewan and Erendyl so long ago? The Long Runners. Don't really have any particular feeling about them. Given their somewhat isolationist tendencies, I'm not too surprised that they would decide to migrate to Wendar, so we'll just stick with that for now. The Mealidil- to be honest, I'm not sure what these guys would do. Away from my books at home, I'm kind of having trouble figuring out exactly how they are distinguished from the Long Runners- the Long Runners are wizards, but the Mealidil are sages? Kind of similar. In any event, not having a better option, I won't argue with their decision to migrate to Wendar. Then there are all the smaller clans that the Gaz mentions- where do they go? All over the place, I'd assume. Perhaps some of them might rise to more prominence with the elvish displacement? That might be interesting. But are the above lands two or three dominions? IIRC, I went with the assumption that they are two dominions. Didn't the almanac say something about them being two estates- Achelos and Radlebb? (Or did that come from the MAs?) And if they are three, how does that fit with the comment in WotI's It doesn't. The information in WotI predates the almanacs, obviously, and I assume that things either changed in the interim- just as the primary authors of the almanacs changed- or else someone made a mistake and forgot to keep the continuity of the two products the same. IIRC, some of the information in WotI's "future" section isn't exactly in keeping with later information, not just in this case. At any rate, I think the idea of offering them space in the Dymrak forest was probably a better idea than crushing them in with the Callarii near Radlebb (and doesn't one of the PWAs mention that conflict in passing?) If you really want to reconcile the ideas, I'd suggest using all of the information- putting the "known" clans of elves in Achelos and Radlebb, as stated, and having some of the "nameless" minor clans from Gaz5 be the ones that settle the Dymrak forest. Have these clans split apart even more? Not officially, but as I speculated above, I wouldn't be surprised to see it, nor to see some of the "minor" clans merge into larger "named" and new clans. I think it would be a natural response. After all, the Red Arrow clan was an offshoot of the Mealidil clan (IIRC, prompted by outside conflicts requiring more militant response), as was the Erewan clan (which, I don't think it was ever stated the precise reason, but at least fanonically is due to ideological differences between rulers). I would assume the Red Arrow clan would have no problem staying and That is a pretty likely idea. They could also keep their fighting edge sharp as a result, and attempt to seek out allies among the Vyalia elves for their inevitable attempt to retake the Canolbarth. Clan Feadiel would seem more likely to seek to isolate itself as much Plus, there is an Actaeon that claims those woods as its protectorate, and who might welcome the Feadiel treekeepers (and their Tree of Life?) in those woods. There might also still be remnants of the Truedyl clan of elves that live in the forests of Alfheim that the Feadiel could seek out. (Gaz8 mentions that elves live in the woods, but they don't seem to have a real settlement of note). On the other hand, Clan Chossum might prefer to stay closer to central Definitely- plus it puts them close to the King's Road for trade with Darokin. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the Chossum making their homes in the forests between the Canolbarth and Black Mountains. Again, this might be a clan that splits, and for a lot of reasons. One, because it might be beneficial economically for different parts of the clan to go to different areas- some might have more financial ties with Darokin interests, some with Karameikan interests. Also, the Chossum was, IIRC, the clan that was most heavily infiltrated by Shadowelves, and so they a) might not be wanted or trusted by other clans, b) might not trust one another, and c) might just be splintered leadership wise, depending on how extensive the SE infiltration might have been (and some of the SE might also choose to remain with the Chossum, possibly, rather than their SE brethren). |
| #3the_stalkerJun 21, 2006 15:19:30 | You pretty much have hit the only sources, "canon" and Fanonical (Hey! Not sure I'd go that far. Bruce Heard said that the clans going north (to Wendar) are Feadil (is that Feadil or Feadiel - I seem to read both...), Long Runners, Mealidil, and Grunalf, whereas the clans going south (to Karameikos) are Chossum, Erendyl, and Red Arrow. Fabrizio Paoli switched Feadil and Erendyl, presumably because subsequent PWAs said that Doriath was in Wendar. I do tend to agree with him, though I suppose we could wonder why Feadil then went to Karameikos instead of Long Runners, Mealidil, or Grunalf... It's probably for the reasons you give yourself, I guess. Well, bear in mind that Doriath is the king of Alfheim, and not the Really? Who is the clanleader? I can't seem to find that character in gaz 5. The Feadiels, I could argue either way- they might be tired of running Yeah, that reminds me that CM7 still hasn't taken place in the MA timeline, which would seem relevant to me, given how many other of the official adventures are being integrated into the timeline. IIRC, I went with the assumption that they are two dominions. Didn't They are listed with two separate coats of arms in K:KoA's Explorer's Guide (p.99), so I guess you're right that they are two estates. |
| #4CthulhudrewJun 21, 2006 16:40:26 | Not sure I'd go that far. Bruce Heard said that the clans going north (to Wendar) are Feadil (is that Feadil or Feadiel - I seem to read both...) It's been spelled both ways. IIRC, CM7 had them as the Feadil clan, but Gaz5 later added the second "e" (although I think it still used the CM7 spelling a couple of times, too). Fabrizio Paoli switched Feadil and Erendyl, presumably because subsequent PWAs said that Doriath was in Wendar. I do tend to agree with him, though I suppose we could wonder why Feadil then went to Karameikos instead of Long Runners, Mealidil, or Grunalf... Like I said, I could go either way with Feadiel, same with Mealidil. I would think that, given their ties to the Erewan, that the Erendyl would likely stay somewhere closer than Wendar, though. (Not that Karameikos is much closer than Wendar to Glantri, but given the vast mountains separating Wendar from Glantri, I'd say Karameikos is somewhat more accessible). Regardless of where the majority of the clan went, though, I'd say that many of them would have likely joined the Erewan. Really? Who is the clanleader? I can't seem to find that character in gaz 5. Brendian Erendyl. I think Gaz5 also makes it clear that the king is (at least in theory) considered sort of "neutral" regardless of what clan he/she originally hailed from, in order to rule impartially. Of course, people (and elves) being fallible, this doesn't actually work out in reality. Yeah, that reminds me that CM7 still hasn't taken place in the MA timeline, which would seem relevant to me, given how many other of the official adventures are being integrated into the timeline. Yep. I think I started a thread (or maybe just a list at home) of all the adventures that have been placed, explicitly or by supposition, in Mystara. CM7 doesn't fit the bill- although I did once posit a theory that Moorkroft Elvenbane was actually our current Archduke John Beaumarys-Moorkroft via a dispute with a certain time traveling sorceress (and not just distantly related, as Gaz5 has it). I just liked the idea of the strange paradox that would create. They are listed with two separate coats of arms in K:KoA's Explorer's Guide (p.99), so I guess you're right that they are two estates. I hadn't even thought to check that myself, but I see that they are listed as such. Interesting. |
| #5eldersphinxJun 22, 2006 13:57:56 | The Mealidil- to be honest, I'm not sure what these guys would do. Away from my books at home, I'm kind of having trouble figuring out exactly how they are distinguished from the Long Runners- the Long Runners are wizards, but the Mealidil are sages? Kind of similar. In any event, not having a better option, I won't argue with their decision to migrate to Wendar. The Long Runners are wizards. They use spells, they create spells, they research spells, but if it ain't magic, they aren't interested in it. A Long Runner is as likely to be an active, adventurous type using magic to track enemies or reshape the landscape as a researcher crouched inside over a spellbook. The Mealidel are sages. Knowledge, in all its forms and origins, is what drives them, and its uses are primarily cerebral and analytic as well. Mealidel may study magic - but may also study history, religion, psychology, engineering, biology and medicine, or any other discipline of lore. For the Mealidel, magic is a tool, nothing more - useful, certainly, but never to be used exclusively or entirely trusted if another way of verifying discovered knowledge exists. |