So, really, I guess the answer is probably "who knows." Odds are that Athas' orbit around the sun is almost completely circular rather than eliptical, which would account for there not really being any true seasons per se, and that the orbital plane is titled at a slight angle to account for a period where the sun is lower than at other times, but as far as the planet itself goes...speculation only, I think.
Something else to think about - it's been suggested that Athas is, in fact, a moon orbiting around either Ral or Guthay (whichever is bigger...I always forget) rather than both of them orbiting around Athas. If that's the case then it makes the whole issue even more complicated, I think.
Athas might not even be a spherical ball of rock floating in the vastness of space. We are talking about a fantasy world, after all. There may be nothing but desert and silt beyond the known spaces of the world...the Tyr Valley may BE the extent of the world. Or it might just end.
An answer may also be found in the (unofficial) Spelljammer supplement for DarkSun, named Crimson Sphere. Here's a local thread with links: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=585088
Also, whether or not it is canon or not, the original co-designers did try to imagine the planet of Athas was a planet. In an email interview long ago, Tim Brown condifided to me that, although it never saw print, he envisioned that the Tyr region was in the southern hemisphere and that Athas was in roughly the equivalent of Mars's position in its solar system. They discussed the various effects changing of the sun would cause upon the planet from a near-science perspective when colaborating in the design process, basically using real astronomical physics as guidelines for what they wanted as an outcome.
if that is the case, then much of brian's work is inacuate. not that this is a problem. I asked my question because i am curious about the poles, because it would be interesting if the were in perpetual darkness, or dimness. it could make for an interesting take on things.
if that is the case, then much of brian's work is inacuate. not that this is a problem. I asked my question because i am curious about the poles, because it would be interesting if the were in perpetual darkness, or dimness. it could make for an interesting take on things.
If you're talking about the same maps I'm thinking about it could just be that the maps of Athas are all upside down. I had a teacher in highschool who had a map of Earth printed upside down on his wall.
If you're talking about the same maps I'm thinking about it could just be that the maps of Athas are all upside down. I had a teacher in highschool who had a map of Earth printed upside down on his wall.
Yup - Directions are always relative. :D
if that is the case, then much of brian's work is inacuate. not that this is a problem.
Nah, its not a problem because you can't really say that unpublished material makes what you have done "inaccurate".
On Athas, we really don't know what are the features which determine what the people consider North or South. And they couldvery well be opposite of what we'd think.
The rogue in my campaign found a "cup-like device containing a small, floating metal arrow that somehow always points in the same direction" in some ruins the group was exploring. I find your commentary amusing, Xlorep, in that I don't think I ever actually stated in which direction the arrow was pointing...just that he (in-character; he obviously knew what it was OOC) figured out that it told him what direction he was facing.
The rogue in my campaign found a "cup-like device containing a small, floating metal arrow that somehow always points in the same direction" in some ruins the group was exploring. I find your commentary amusing, Xlorep, in that I don't think I ever actually stated in which direction the arrow was pointing...just that he (in-character; he obviously knew what it was OOC) figured out that it told him what direction he was facing.
Well, a magnet technically can point two ways.
Well, a magnet technically can point two ways.
And always technically does, just from either end.
The rogue in my campaign found a "cup-like device containing a small, floating metal arrow that somehow always points in the same direction" in some ruins the group was exploring. I find your commentary amusing, Xlorep, in that I don't think I ever actually stated in which direction the arrow was pointing...just that he (in-character; he obviously knew what it was OOC) figured out that it told him what direction he was facing.
One of the Dark Sun novels (I forget which one) featured a Tohr-Kreen psionicist who was also a tinker of some sort... he was outside the walls of Tyr using a compass he had found, when the guards accused him of using magic and sent him to the arenas
One of the Dark Sun novels (I forget which one) featured a Tohr-Kreen psionicist who was also a tinker of some sort... he was outside the walls of Tyr using a compass he had found, when the guards accused him of using magic and sent him to the arenas
The novel was called "The Darkness before the Dawn" by Ryan Hughes.
On a similar note, it's possible that during one of the sun's changes Athas' entire crust might have shifted as well; probably not a quick shift, as that would have been noticed, but perhaps over several hundred (or thousand) years the new magnetic/gravitational/etc. configuration of the solar system (after each of the sun's changes) could have caused an effect along those lines...basically just "continental drift" on a massive, fast scale. Heck, it might even be one of the reasons why the physical layout of Athas has such strange features as the Jagged Cliffs.
Also, whether or not it is canon or not, the original co-designers did try to imagine the planet of Athas was a planet. In an email interview long ago, Tim Brown condifided to me that, although it never saw print, he envisioned that the Tyr region was in the southern hemisphere and that Athas was in roughly the equivalent of Mars's position in its solar system. They discussed the various effects changing of the sun would cause upon the planet from a near-science perspective when colaborating in the design process, basically using real astronomical physics as guidelines for what they wanted as an outcome.
Yep, I know. But given how badly Athas' environment, history, etc. breaks any sort of "physics" or "real world" model -- geographically, climatically, etc. It troubles my conscience not at all to make the "it's a fantasy world and isn't floating in space" argument, regardless of what the designers thought at one time or another.
(I mean, hey, the glorious designers also had space halflings and surfing druids, and thought killing off half the sorcerer-kings in their frickin' metaplot was a good idea.)
Not that I'm against worlds based around near-real pseudoscience -- I've also made some pseudo-science arguments regarding how the effects caused by Athas' changing sun took place over such incredibly and impossibly short time-periods -- but such worlds, and the underlying assumptions that come with them, are long overdone in modern fantasy.
... and thought killing off half the sorcerer-kings in their frickin' metaplot was a good idea.)
To that all I have to say is that they thought it was a good idea "at the time". ;) I seem to recall in one of my interviews with Troy Denning he confessed that, now in retrospect many years later, it was probably something he wouldn't have done again were he writing them now.
IIRC the earth's magnetic poles swap every 150,000 years or so, something like that, and given that the "known history" of Athas spans over 10,000 years there's a decent enough chance that it might have swapped simply because of that. And yes, I agree that the changes made to the sun could have caused swaps as well - our sun messes with the magnetics of the earth on a regular basis, in various ways, so I'm sure that changing it's composition would have a bunch of far-reaching ramifications beyond the basic change in climate that is discussed in the books.
My thoughts exactly.
On a similar note, it's possible that during one of the sun's changes Athas' entire crust might have shifted as well; probably not a quick shift, as that would have been noticed, but perhaps over several hundred (or thousand) years the new magnetic/gravitational/etc. configuration of the solar system (after each of the sun's changes) could have caused an effect along those lines...basically just "continental drift" on a massive, fast scale. Heck, it might even be one of the reasons why the physical layout of Athas has such strange features as the Jagged Cliffs.
If memory serves, I want to say it was revealed (or proposed/hinted at) somewhat in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, or some other supplement, that the Jagged Cliffs were actually caused by the Rhulisti. After the nature-benders were exiled, the rest of Rhulisti society raised the Jagged Cliffs as a barrier keeping the nature-benders out, and then riddled it with a number of "outposts", that is, defensive locations to protect against incursion, of which the entirety of the Rhul-Thaun society is by a single (or a small, grographically close collection of) outpost. The Jagged Cliffs aren't natural, but more of an enduring testiment to the impressive power of the Rhulisti.
If memory serves, I want to say it was revealed (or proposed/hinted at) somewhat in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, or some other supplement, that the Jagged Cliffs were actually caused by the Rhulisti. After the nature-benders were exiled, the rest of Rhulisti society raised the Jagged Cliffs as a barrier keeping the nature-benders out, and then riddled it with a number of "outposts", that is, defensive locations to protect against incursion, of which the entirety of the Rhul-Thaun society is by a single (or a small, grographically close collection of) outpost. The Jagged Cliffs aren't natural, but more of an enduring testiment to the impressive power of the Rhulisti.
Huh, I hadn't read that although I don't recall reading a whole lot about the nature-bender split, so odds are I never really read through Windriders (at the time that I got it the group decided to go exploring across the silt sea rather than head west, so that module was never on my priority list).
Nah, its not a problem because you can't really say that unpublished material makes what you have done "inaccurate".
Except that it's not only the unpublished material which makes his work inaccurate, but the published material as well. Following the information posted on that thread, one can find several instanced where published material was flat out ignored. Not to mention, that his maps were primarily based off of a pre-existing, totally unofficial, fan-created map. So it should be no wonder that it is not entirely accurate.
Except that it's not only the unpublished material which makes his work inaccurate, but the published material as well. Following the information posted on that thread, one can find several instanced where published material was flat out ignored. Not to mention, that his maps were primarily based off of a pre-existing, totally unofficial, fan-created map. So it should be no wonder that it is not entirely accurate.
The entire process was, if memory serves, a "what if" idea. Something I greatly support, because it makes available some maps to create ideas in the heads of DMs -- I know it created a number of ideas for my campaigns. Honestly... it would be nice if things fit together, but let's be honest -- Dark Sun is full of inaccuracies, even without Brian's maps. Personally, I don't use the backstories Brian put to his maps, I have my own take on what goes where and how it all works together. The maps are wonderful for bringing in new concepts to a campaign, new locations, and possibly even come up with new cultures for your Dark Sun.
http://www.madsci.org/FAQs/earth/reversals.html
The problem is that the magnetic field doesn't just flip insantaneously. It shifts going through zero, thereby no longer deflecting all the radiation raining down on the planet. So humanoid life (amongst others) likely wouldn't be able to endure it.
As for seasons, there could be a tilt to the planet, but it is also possible that there is a tilt to the orbit like Pluto.
I found this URL about Geomagnetic Reversals.
http://www.madsci.org/FAQs/earth/reversals.html
The problem is that the magnetic field doesn't just flip insantaneously. It shifts going through zero, thereby no longer deflecting all the radiation raining down on the planet. So humanoid life (amongst others) likely wouldn't be able to endure it.
As for seasons, there could be a tilt to the planet, but it is also possible that there is a tilt to the orbit like Pluto.
Maybe there isn't a single, planet-wide magnetic field, like how Mars is. It could explain why people tend to be focused in just one area of the world, if the rest of the planet is more or less uninhabitable due to the high solar radiation.
Maybe there isn't a single, planet-wide magnetic field, like how Mars is. It could explain why people tend to be focused in just one area of the world, if the rest of the planet is more or less uninhabitable due to the high solar radiation.
Solar radiation wasn't always a threat. During the blue age it might have even been beneficial (though this may just be me associating a blue sun with blue kryptonite). But after Rajaat made the white/yellow sun a dark red, it became unsafe to live for long periods of time outside of the tablelands. The kreen empire wasn't damaged by this because their thick exoskeleton (thicker than people's, anyway) protects them. In terms of in-game metaphysics, what Rajaat did to the sun made the radiance paraelement too powerful to safely be exposed to the sun. Only in the tablelands are people protected from it.
Some NPC in my game referred to the seasons as "the hot season, the very hot season, and the other very hot season.
Abbey's work on Urik speaks of Quinths, meaning that the year is broken into 5 seasons of 75 days each. This is the calendar that we've been developing for the Kurn-Eldaarich area. 15 months of 25 days each. The Nibenese/Merchant calendar has 30 day months, so maybe their calendar follows the phases of one moon, while the other moon has 25-day phases.
-brax
The entire process was, if memory serves, a "what if" idea. Something I greatly support, because it makes available some maps to create ideas in the heads of DMs -- I know it created a number of ideas for my campaigns. Honestly... it would be nice if things fit together, but let's be honest -- Dark Sun is full of inaccuracies, even without Brian's maps. Personally, I don't use the backstories Brian put to his maps, I have my own take on what goes where and how it all works together. The maps are wonderful for bringing in new concepts to a campaign, new locations, and possibly even come up with new cultures for your Dark Sun.
now don't get me wrong here xlor...wasn't attacking the idea at all. just wanted to state that it's not entirely accurate to canon, so basing ideas off of it might not be such a good idea - at least if these ideas are meant to appeal to the wider, canon-loving, audience.
now don't get me wrong here xlor...wasn't attacking the idea at all. just wanted to state that it's not entirely accurate to canon, so basing ideas off of it might not be such a good idea - at least if these ideas are meant to appeal to the wider, canon-loving, audience.
hehe.
If memory serves, I want to say it was revealed (or proposed/hinted at) somewhat in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, or some other supplement, that the Jagged Cliffs were actually caused by the Rhulisti. After the nature-benders were exiled, the rest of Rhulisti society raised the Jagged Cliffs as a barrier keeping the nature-benders out, and then riddled it with a number of "outposts", that is, defensive locations to protect against incursion, of which the entirety of the Rhul-Thaun society is by a single (or a small, grographically close collection of) outpost. The Jagged Cliffs aren't natural, but more of an enduring testiment to the impressive power of the Rhulisti.
Just as an FYI, I was flipping through Windriders last this weekend for some unrelated topic, and towards the beginning of the book when it's discussing Rhulisti history it says that the Jagged Cliffs were "discovered" when the brown tide caused the water to recede, and not that it was made; the Rhulisti just saw it, thought "hey that's a good place to settle down at" and that was that.
So we're back to the possibility that the completely unusual landform known as the Jagged Cliffs might somehow be related to the axial tilt/sun changes/etc.
On a related-yet-not-by-much-topic there's a fringe theory regarding Mars that suggests that, in the distant past, Mars was hit with the remnants of an exploding planet, coating one side of it in upwards of 2 miles of "extra rock"; I can't give you the details but I do remember that something like 2/3rds of mars actually does have an extra mile-plus of rock on it (i.e. the planet isn't balanced, shape-wise, like it should be) and also it's current axial tilt is something like 50 degrees off from what it used to be way in the past (which is supposedly another "indicator" that this explosion/impact happened; it spun either the planet or the planet's crust around when the bazillions of tons of ejecta hit).
Anyway, although this doesn't totally fit in with the description of the Jagged Cliffs, it at least gives a "scientific" description of how a similar, strange geological feature could have been created. Might spark some imaginations as to this whole axis/tilt(/Jagged Cliffs...because, well...why not. :P) discussion.
So we're back to the possibility that the completely unusual landform known as the Jagged Cliffs might somehow be related to the axial tilt/sun changes/etc.
Why are we back there exactly?
Frankly, to me, it feels like a variant of an exposed continental shelf.
... and also it's current axial tilt is something like 50 degrees off from what it used to be way in the past (which is supposedly another "indicator" that this explosion/impact happened; it spun either the planet or the planet's crust around when the bazillions of tons of ejecta hit).
The clearest explanation that I have read of Mars' wild axial tilt is that its molten core is no longer moltan, but rather solid stone. No more magnetic field, no more interior rotating orb of molten iron to keep it stable... and it simply "wobbled" into its current axial tilt. As far as the martian supercollision fringe theory... it would seem to be more apparent in the topographic maps being generated by the martian orbiting laser altimeter. But I don't see it... yet. The best explanation I read about the martian southern "bulge" is that, like Pangaea in Earth's ancient history, continental plates on Mars simply merged into a super-continent... and never separated as the molten core cooled off.
Why are we back there exactly?
No real reason, other than the fact that I want to know where the heck a 2-mile high, extremely-long-and-straight vertical wall came from.
And I have trouble staying on topic. Whatever that topic might be, since I've already forgotten.Frankly, to me, it feels like a variant of an exposed continental shelf.
The clearest explanation that I have read of Mars' wild axial tilt is that its molten core is no longer moltan, but rather solid stone. No more magnetic field, no more interior rotating orb of molten iron to keep it stable... and it simply "wobbled" into its current axial tilt. As far as the martian supercollision fringe theory... it would seem to be more apparent in the topographic maps being generated by the martian orbiting laser altimeter. But I don't see it... yet. The best explanation I read about the martian southern "bulge" is that, like Pangaea in Earth's ancient history, continental plates on Mars simply merged into a super-continent... and never separated as the molten core cooled off.
It's something to do with the bulge, I think, along the lines of "there's a couple extra miles of crust on one side of the planet that isn't on the other side, and it appears to be composed of a slightly different material as well" but again, fringe theory.
Er...so anyway...what the heck was this thread originally about?