|#1zenrakJul 01, 2006 5:37:30||The Setup|
A half-giant, unarmed with Improved Unarmed Strike, is adjacent to an elf, wielding a Kyorkcha.
The elf attempts to throw the kyorkcha at the half-giant, draws an attack of opportunity. For the AoO, the half-giant chooses to grapple, and succeeds.
Can the elf still attack with the kyorkcha?
|#2xlorepdarkhelm_dupJul 01, 2006 11:00:43||First question that comes to mind for me is.... where did the elf score a kyorkcha? :D|
|#3KamelionJul 01, 2006 12:15:48||It depends on a ruling by the DM as to whether the kyorkcha counts as a light weapon. Given that it is akin to a boomerang in size, I would rule that this is possible. The elf takes the standard -4 for attacking his opponent in a grapple with a weapon, and I would also impose an additional penalty for using a ranged weapon in a melee attack. A -2 on attacks and damage might be appropriate, or a -4 under the improvised weapon rules (or whatever the DM deems appropriate).|
|#4greyormJul 01, 2006 12:51:42||Or...REFLEX SAVE! The results of which determine which catchy catch-phrase you get to say between "Boom! The elf gets off his throw before you grab him. U R H02S3D!" and "HA! Suc-k! No attack for elfy!"|
Serious. What else are those saves there for except things like this? And poison.
|#5zenrakJul 01, 2006 14:23:04||Ok.. that's what I was thinking, Kamelion. The -4 to hit seems decent enough penelty for me. Thanks! Now about the elf scoring a kyorkcha... |
Long story short...
Elf really wasn't sane in the first place
Elf gets attack by kreen
Elf survives the attack
Elf grabs kyorkcha
Elf decides to slay every kreen with kyorkcha
(Of course, now he's stuck in the arenas as a slave)
Poor elf gets no revenge... sad really.
|#6dirk00001Jul 01, 2006 18:19:11||Actually, it's even more screwey than that - grapple attacks provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have Improved Grapple, and an AoO interrupts the normal flow of actions, taking precedence. So:|
1) Elf attacks half-giant with ranged weapon, provoking attack of opportunity.
2) Half-giant takes AoO, thanks to having Improved Unarmed Strike, and decides to grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity.
3) Elf takes his attack of opportunity, which has to be a melee attack...in this case using the kyorkcha as an improvised weapon at a -4 penalty (or whatever penalty you think is appropriate)
4) If the elf's AoO deals damage then the grapple fails, so the elf takes his ranged attack as normal. If the AoO fails, however, then he can't do a ranged attack, so instead gets to (theoretically) make a second improvised melee attack with his kyorkcha, assuming it's a light weapon.
So it's quite possible that the giant has just turned a single attack into two of 'em.
|#7thebraxJul 09, 2006 19:06:12||I'd assume that you can't grapple as an attack of opportunity unless you have some sort of feat like improved grapple, just as normally you can't use a missile attack or spell or psi-power as attack of opportunity, unless you have a feat that allows it (like opportunity power).|
|#8dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 10:55:47|
I'd assume that you can't grapple as an attack of opportunity unless you have some sort of feat like improved grapple, just as normally you can't use a missile attack or spell or psi-power as attack of opportunity, unless you have a feat that allows it (like opportunity power).
I was wondering about that as well, as 3.5e isn't very clear on this. IIRC, when I was reading the AoO and grapple rules before posting my screwed-up how-it'd-work idea, I went with the ruling that you can grapple as part of an attack of opportunity as the AoO entry says 'you get to make a melee attack' and under the grapple rules it says 'this is a melee attack' or something to that effect, and also indicates that you can make multiple grapple attempts based on your BAB (something else to indicate that it works like a "normal melee attack"). Even the glossary says that a melee attack is "A physical attack suitable for close combat" which is pretty ambiguous, but then again grappling is suitable for close combat, so...*shrug*
|#9thebraxJul 10, 2006 11:15:20||When the closest textual reading of a rule results in chaos, contradiction, or absurdity, we generally look for other interpretations of the rule.|
|#10dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 11:40:13|
When the closest textual reading of a rule results in chaos, contradiction, or absurdity, we generally look for other interpretations of the rule.
I tried applying that idea to the Real World(tm), and all it got me was a prison sentence.
|#11kalthandrixJul 10, 2006 12:31:04||Attacks of opportunity cannot provoke AoO - that would be just dumb. Also, I do not think you can grapple as part of an AoO.|
|#12dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 12:44:43|
Attacks of opportunity cannot provoke AoO - that would be just dumb. Also, I do not think you can grapple as part of an AoO.
Heh no argument there (re: dumb), and if an AoO can't provoke an AoO, and since grappling *does* provoke an AoO, then it's logical that you couldn't grapple as part of an AoO as that would go against the clearly-stated grapple rules.
|#13zenrakJul 10, 2006 13:08:50||I don't think it gonna be that bad if you use grapple as an AoO... remember that you only have one AoO per round... unless you have Combat Reflexes.|
|#14dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 13:25:11||...but then what about an AoO causing an AoO? Either it'd mean that grappling as an AoO *doesn't* provoke an attack of opportunity, which is a bad idea since that'd basically give the person Improved Grapple as a free feat (not provoking an AoO is the best part of that feat, after all), or it'd mean that you could wind up in an infinite loop of AoO's (Mob A tries to grapple, Mob B gets an AoO grapple, which invokes an AoO from A, taken as a grapple, which invokes yet another AoO from B...)|
This whole discussion is getting worse by the minute. Good thing the last day's worth of posts will go away tonight and we can all pretend it never, ever happened. RIGHT?
|#15zenrakJul 10, 2006 13:31:29||Ha! Nice Dirk.. yes, soon this horrible conversation will be no more, into the Black with Rajaat.|
Well, then I would say only if you have Improved Grapple can you grapple as an AoO. Just to save headaches.
|#16kalthandrixJul 10, 2006 13:55:55||From reading over the SRD, I really think it would be a rather big abuse to allow grapples are part of an AoO. My reasoning is supported in that it says that AoO's are distracting attacks, IMO that means quick and dirty. A grapple to me signifies a specific and intent when attempting a grapple - meaning that as you attack you plan out what you must do to get a good hold or some such thoughts. An AoO is a hurried action that is more of a reflexive strike at an opponet who had let their guard down.|
I would just suggest reading over the AoO and grapple stuff again and I think you will see what I mean.
And also remember this - there are many critters out there who have improved grap, meaning that they would fall under your ruling to getting a grapple if they landed a strike during an AoO. If I was the DM of a game where this was going on - I could see some bad things happening with this when critters had reach and combat reflexes. I can also see this snow-balling into making trip attacks as part of an attack of opportunity - which if sucessful allows for a free strike against the tripped opponent - so you get a character with a guisarme, improved trip, combat reflexes, and spring attack and thats it - I would be a trippen, stabbing, spring attacking fool and now one could get close to! (I have been accused of being a power-gamer and I would have to agree - which is why I do not allow things like what I have above).
|#17dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 14:01:36||With that ruling, however, realize that you'd also have to allow disarm, trip and possibly even sunder attempts to be taken as an AoO, as all (sunder being the slight exception) are worded similar to grapple ('...as a melee attack").|
And what about characters with the Close-Quarters Fighting (CompWar) which allows you to take an AoO against an opponent attempting to grapple you even if they have a feat or ability that would otherwise prevent you from taking an AoO?
What then, smart guy? WHAT THEN!?
|#18zenrakJul 10, 2006 14:13:24|| I don't know! I'm scared. Ahhh!|
I should just disallow AoO.... yes... that would fix it.
|#19eric_anondsonJul 10, 2006 14:23:00||Doesn't the D&D FAQ have something to say about this? I don't believe that somehow there is no clarity in the FAQ on this...|
|#20eric_anondsonJul 10, 2006 14:38:01||We have this from the FAQ:|
Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity. Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter?
|#21zenrakJul 10, 2006 14:49:10||Hmm... interesting... so a grapple loop is quite possible.. so how would one resolve that?|
|#22kalthandrixJul 10, 2006 14:52:15|
With that ruling, however, realize that you'd also have to allow disarm, trip and possibly even sunder attempts to be taken as an AoO, as all (sunder being the slight exception) are worded similar to grapple ('...as a melee attack").
See it is that reason that I said that disallowing grapples as AoO is the only way to go! Way too much chance for really heavy handed abuse.
Dirk - see what we would need it a adamantine huge guisarme and a fighter with these feats: Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Monkey Grip, and the feat from the PHBII that allow you to shift a weapon from reach to close-quarters as a free action. This guy would trip anyone coming close to him, then get a free attack to either sunder the opponents weapon or armor or attack their body.
|#23dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 15:58:36||Bahahaha....I was really hoping that, once someone decided to look it up in the FAQ, we'd find out that you can't do any of these "special" attacks as an AoO.|
Kal - And don't forget Stand Still and Elusive Target tactical feat; that way no one is going to bypass your awesomeness with a charge, and thanks to Elusive Target you get to make a free trip attack against every one of the bazillionty people you move past as you're taking your Spring Attack against an opponent in the middle of the enemy formation. Even better, Combat Brute - that way you get an additional attack against an opponent whose weapon or shield you just sundered, which of course you do another sunder attack with, basically destroying every piece of weaponry on them with a single attack action. With prereq feats for all of this (Power Attack and Combat Expertise) that makes a total of 12 feats, so we're talkin' a 12th level fighter to pull this off.
Thank you, WotC FAQ; I now know what my next character is going to be. :evillaugh
|#24dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 16:00:47||...and as your first Epic feat take Improved Combat Reflexes.|
|#25eric_anondsonJul 10, 2006 16:25:04||From my understanding, the reason you provoke an AoO when making a grapple is because you enter your opponent's square as a part of initiating the grapple. You cannot do a "grapple loop" because you can only enter your opponent's square one time.|
|#26dirk00001Jul 10, 2006 16:40:41|
From my understanding, the reason you provoke an AoO when making a grapple is because you enter your opponent's square as a part of initiating the grapple. You cannot do a "grapple loop" because you can only enter your opponent's square one time.
It's actually worded quite specifically that you provoke an AoO after you declare the grapple and before anything else happens, and if that AoO hits then the grapple fails. Otherwise you then make a melee touch attack, and following that make a grapple check to deal unarmed damage and actually start the grapple, and then you move into the opponent's square.
|#27kalthandrixJul 10, 2006 18:57:14||...And if you damage your opponent with the AoO while they attempt to grapple with you, their grapple attempt is foiled. |
Dirk - I actually had a player try this before and I e-mailed Dragon Mag to get them to give me a ruling (I think this was like 2 1/2 years ago or something with I was DMing the Shackled City adventure path for some people at the weeking gaming nigth they had there on campus.
I did not know about the FAQ, but i did know it could not be done - I just had to dig through all my e-mail to find the response I got (yes - I have a cluttered mailbox).
I like thinking of thigs like this because it is COOL - hell sometimes I sit around and just make up PCs - like this weekend I rolled up a sweet set of stats (no fudging) and decided I would make a band of all Epic characters - like 6 of them - at 23rd level. Two are finished - one is a minotaur barabrian 15/ monstrous humaniod 6/ LA +2 who has like 350 hit points and a half-gold dragon paladin 20/ LA+3 whose special mount is a gold dragon (his yourger hald-brother). But seeing as how I am unsure about the status of minotaus in DS and there bring no half-dragons - I will not post them on the DS site. [but I could scan them and e-mail them to people who like that kind of stuff]
|#28gilliard_derosanJul 11, 2006 9:44:29|
Hmm... interesting... so a grapple loop is quite possible.. so how would one resolve that?
Essentially, 1 Character A declares he is throwing his weapon, which provokes an attack of opportunity
2 Adjacent Character B declares he is going to try grappling as his AoO
3 Since grappling provokes AoO, Character A declares that he is going to strike Character B with his weapon before he throws it. Since melee attacks don't usually provoke AoO, it ends here.
Resolution in reverse order.
3 - let him make his strike, if he does damage, grapple ends immediately, is bypassed and original character gets to throw his weapon
If the attack fails to do damage, grapple is resolved as normal. If it succeeds, throwing the weapon does not happen. If the grapple attempt fails to hit with the touch attack or the resulting grapple check fails, then Character A still gets to throw his weapon, since he is not grappling when it comes time for him to resolve his original attack
Oh, and moving into the characters space comes in step 4, maintaining a grapple, it has to succeed first. You don't try to move in while it is still being attempted.
Now, as for the Grapple Loop, assuming people have combat reflexes and multiple AoO's, the loop proceeds till someone actually succeeds at a grapple check. If you are the initiator of a grapple and you succeed, you get to deal unarmed strike damage immediately. If you are the defender and you succeed, you simply prevent the grapple from taking place. Assuming you have enough AoO's to reverse grapple, you continue until an attacking grappler succeeds and starts an actual grapple
Basically it's a
"I'm gonna grapple you!"
"Oh yeah? Not if I grapple you first!"
"Well, you can't grapple me first if I already got you grappled!"
Since the first attacking grappler that succeeds establishes the grapple, inflicts damage, and establishes the hold. Once the grapple starts though, everyone grappling can attempt grappling maneuvers on their turn. You can try to escape, pin, attack with a light weapon, etc. Once the grapple actually takes place, there is no longer any difference between who started the grapple and who was defending against it, both parties are now grapplers
|#29dirk00001Jul 11, 2006 10:45:22|
I like thinking of thigs like this because it is COOL - hell sometimes I sit around and just make up PCs
Heh me too, I'm an amature quantum physicist, pschologist, sociologist, etc. etc. etc., and somewhat of an anarchist to boot, so analyzing rules and thinking up bizarre ways to abuse the heck out of them (preferrably in highly entertaining ways) takes up a lot of my free time as well. It's also the biggest reason why I love GMing, and especially for Dark Sun - it's such a unique game world that has none-the-less been fleshed out really nicely that it gives me all sorts of unique places and situations to work with, and with the various contradictions and "missing" game history it also leaves me a lot of room to throw in my own ideas and such.
My DS games are always *way* overpowered - it's one of the main reasons my gaming group likes me running it, so they can have retardedly-powerful characters that are complete abuses of the rules with a DM that just smiles and says "feel free to do that." By the same token, however, it lets me make all sorts of equally ludicrous NPCs for them to go up against. Some of their past run-ins have been with a high-level defiler/demonologist from Balic (member of the Chamber of Patricians, including the PP idea that they have their eyes and tongues removed, so he had Blind-Fighting and applied Silent Spell to every spell he memorized), a halfling blighter, an undead gnome illusionist, and most recently they (at an average PC level of 23rd) took on the Dragon in a bid to save Free Balic from his wrath (they didn't pay the Levy) - awesome battle that lasted around 4 hours even against the Dragon at his CR 63 or whatever it was I spec'ed him out at (3 full 10-point pages of stats to keep track of everything he could do :D ), they obviously didn't kill him but they were able to keep themselves alive long enough (that is, enough were alive at any given moment to use Wish/Raise Dead/Reality Revision to bring the others' back) that he eventually ran out of nearly all of his spells and over half of his PPs and decided "okay, this isn't worth it anymore" and so was willing to agree to a "lesser bargain" and "allow" Balic to remain standing.