* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd EDITION ((THAC0 CHART)) Started at 09-29-03 03:31 AM by Escroft Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=106892 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Escroft Date : 09-29-03 03:31 AM Thread Title : 2nd EDITION ((THAC0 CHART)) WARRIOR CLASS THAC0 = 1 improvement for every level Question: Can THAC0 go below 1 when reaching Lv.20? Evidence To Question: IN PHB, page 89, it says Table 53, from Lv.1-20, and it says to refer to Table 54 for thac0 increase by 1/1. Because of this, is it legitimate for a Warrior to go below 0 THAC0? Please respond to this ASAP. ESCROFT -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Asta Kask Date : 09-29-03 03:58 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd EDITION ((THAC0 CHART)) Originally posted by Escroft WARRIOR CLASS THAC0 = 1 improvement for every level Question: Can THAC0 go below 1 when reaching Lv.20? Evidence To Question: IN PHB, page 89, it says Table 53, from Lv.1-20, and it says to refer to Table 54 for thac0 increase by 1/1. Because of this, is it legitimate for a Warrior to go below 0 THAC0? Please respond to this ASAP. ESCROFT Yes, you can go as far below THAC0 1 as your DM allows, you horrible little munchkin... :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : nevick Date : 09-29-03 04:23 PM In baldurs gate 2 the thac0 hit negative numbers pretty fast. good thing the computer calculated everything cuz that stuff can get confusing real fast =P. But basically thac0 0 is like bab +20 right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : DarkSoldier Date : 09-29-03 04:44 PM 0 THAC0 = BAB +20, but 0 THAC0 doesn't give you three extra attacks per round, and it doesn't go against the rest of the system. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : sandskimmer Date : 09-29-03 07:32 PM Not to nitpick, but first off, this really belongs in the out of print forum. Also, a fighter's thaco never droped below 0! The DMs Option: High Level Campaign book states, "Although their [warrior's] THAC0 ceases to improve once they reach level 20, they continue to receive extra proficiencies and hit points until level 30." This quote is from p.146, chapter 7: High-Level Characters. Saving throws and THAC0 had limits. They both stopped getting better at 20th level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : WCrawford Date : 09-29-03 11:22 PM Originally posted by sandskimmer Not to nitpick, but first off, this really belongs in the out of print forum. Also, a fighter's thaco never droped below 0! The DMs Option: High Level Campaign book states, "Although their [warrior's] THAC0 ceases to improve once they reach level 20, they continue to receive extra proficiencies and hit points until level 30." This quote is from p.146, chapter 7: High-Level Characters. Saving throws and THAC0 had limits. They both stopped getting better at 20th level. Now, to get that rule, you'd had to have bought that particular DM's Option book. There was no such rule in the 1st or 2nd edition PHB or DMG. Hit points, proficiencies and THAC0 all continued to improve to level 30 and beyond. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : sandskimmer Date : 09-29-03 11:58 PM Now, to get that rule, you'd had to have bought that particular DM's Option book. There was no such rule in the 1st or 2nd edition PHB or DMG. This is true, however, if you owned any of the "Complete Handbooks", you know that many of them had charts for character advancement beyond 20th level. Those that did, show advancement for spells (if applicable), hit die, and the XP per level. No where do you see anything for improved THAC0 or saving throws. This would imply that they do not increase beyond 20th level. Although the PHB & DMG both specifically state that THAC0 continues to improve beyond 20th, I don't know of anyplace where it states that saving throws improve. Perhaps I just don't know the books well enough. Anyway, my point is that ultimately, they were not intended to improve beyond 20th level even though the core rules state that they do/might. This was probably brought on by a design "revelation" that the staff had after the core rules were published. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : WCrawford Date : 09-30-03 12:53 AM Originally posted by sandskimmer This is true, however, if you owned any of the "Complete Handbooks", you know that many of them had charts for character advancement beyond 20th level. Those that did, show advancement for spells (if applicable), hit die, and the XP per level. No where do you see anything for improved THAC0 or saving throws. This would imply that they do not increase beyond 20th level. Although the PHB & DMG both specifically state that THAC0 continues to improve beyond 20th, I don't know of anyplace where it states that saving throws improve. Perhaps I just don't know the books well enough. Saving Throws were cross referenced on a chart by class and level. Clerica and Druids to 19+; Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers to 17+; Mages to 21+; Theives and Bards to 21+. Anyway, my point is that ultimately, they were not intended to improve beyond 20th level even though the core rules state that they do/might. Writing rules that contradict those printed in the 'Core' books is only going to affect the minority of gamers that purchase/use that product. With many old timers having the opinion that the 'Options' series was what led to the downfall of TSR and 2nd edition AD&D, using those books for discussion may not be the best of options (I can't use them because I never bought them) :). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Kerrexl Date : 09-30-03 05:05 AM According to Faith And Avatars, (a book publised AFTER DM Options: HIgh Level Campaing Setting), the THAC0 caps at -10. The table for both ThAC0, and Wizard/Priest/Bard spellcasting is given on page 22, for level 1 through 40... ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : d_nychus Date : 09-30-03 05:20 AM Ah, 2e lack of uniformity. Even with all the problems of 3e, factors like these in 2e really made me hate it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : sandskimmer Date : 09-30-03 01:28 PM According to Faith And Avatars, (a book publised AFTER DM Options: HIgh Level Campaing Setting), the THAC0 caps at -10. Yes it did - for AVATARS! p.17 talks about avatars in the world, and how they work from a mechanical perspective. p.18 states that an avatar's THAC0 caps at -10, and that they do not receive any bonuses for strength, or for magical items, nor do they receive any penalties for non-proficiency. It then states that no being rated with a PC class can exceed this cap (I'm not sure what that means exactly) and that it is FR specific. So this would seem to imply that PCs in the FR can reach a -10 THAC0, even though the THAC0 chart is only for avatars. :confused: :uh-huh: It almost makes sense. I think the intention was that, since avatars have PC classes, and since THAC0 is class-specific, that avatars and only avatars could exceed a 0 THAC0, depending on their class, and that said THAC0 capped at -10 for avatars. At least that's how I interpret it. Because then you turn to the back of the book (p.182) for priest classes, and you'll notice that the charts only go to 20th level, with a note stating that for every level above 20th, a priest gains additional HPs and more spells. It says nothing about improved THAC0 or Saving Throws, once again implying that these things do not, and shouldn't improve beyond 20th level for mere mortals. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Kerrexl Date : 09-30-03 05:22 PM Actually, under the XP table on page 183 it referes to page 22, to se the spell progression for priests who advances above level 20... ! :) same for THAC0... it is also listed on page 182... :) So those tables are used for priests above level 20, I gues they also work for warriors, wizards and rogues... :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Incenjucar Date : 09-30-03 06:20 PM Remember, in 2e, AC has a cap of -12, and no non-dragon can get any better than -10. Hence, THAC0 HAD to cap, or you'd always hit the Great Gold Wyrm. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : sparkster4242 Date : 10-01-03 12:52 AM Incenjucar has a point. Ac did cap at -10 (except for a couple or three dragons, who might get as low as -12). For PC classes, Thac0 bottomed out at 1, for the warrior group. It really doesnt need to go any lower, since a 1 Thaco, even with no other bonuses from any other source, would allow that warrior-type to hit AC -10 on a d20 roll of 11 or higher (half the time, in other words). By level 20, it wasnt all that difficult for a warrior to have other bonuses that would ensure any hit, unless he auto-failed by rolling a '1'. Also, even for deities, Thac0 below -9 was basically meaningless. At Thac0 -9, without any other bonuses, a roll of '1' would hit AC-10 (at least, if a '1' werent an auto-miss. a '2' would still hit ac -11 or so). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : sandskimmer Date : 10-02-03 08:14 PM Yes, and I believe that's why they changed the rule in the High-level Player's book. A THAC0 better than 1 really is meaningless. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 10-02-03 08:40 PM This really does belong on the Out of Print board. I'll move it there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Kerrexl Date : 10-03-03 08:12 AM Originally posted by sandskimmer Yes, and I believe that's why they changed the rule in the High-level Player's book. A THAC0 better than 1 really is meaningless. But the change in the High level book, was overruled again in Faith and Avatars... :) DM Option: HLCS was made befor Faith and Avatars... And under DM Option: HLCs, the best THAC0s, where: Priest 8 Rogue 11 Warrior 1 Wizard 14 However after they made DM Option HLCS, they made Faith and Avatars, and let the best THAC0 become Priest -6 (level 40) Rogue 1 (level 40) Warrior -10 (caps at level 30) Wizard 7 (level 40) Again, DM Option: HLCS only allows play to level 30, Faith and Avatars overrule it, and sets max level at 40. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Algolei Date : 10-04-03 02:51 AM I don't understand why some people get their shorts in knots when they find conflicting optional rules. It just means you've got a choice. Choice is great, I wish there was more of it. WARRIOR CLASS THAC0 = 1 improvement for every level Question: Can THAC0 go below 1 when reaching Lv.20? Evidence To Question: IN PHB, page 89, it says Table 53, from Lv.1-20, and it says to refer to Table 54 for thac0 increase by 1/1. Because of this, is it legitimate for a Warrior to go below 0 THAC0? Please respond to this ASAP. ESCROFT I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure THAC0s stopped improving after reaching level 20. That means the best THAC0 a Warrior could have is 1. And not to confuse the issue even more, but relating THAC0 to BAB is a bad dream in the making. For starters, if you compare 1st-level Fighters from 2E and 3E and assume they are equal, a 20 THAC0 is the same as a +1 BAB. This means the base THAC0 is 21. However, if you look at the BABs for classes other than the Fighter-based ones, they quickly outstrip THAC0s as your character's level increases. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : LORD ORION Date : 10-05-03 02:25 PM I remember reading somewhere that the max THACO is -9, and no modifier could move THACO below -9. (eg: your natural THACO is -8, and you have a +5 vorpal munchkin blaster, your total THACO is still only -9 not -14) As such, the uber dragons had such insaneo ACs to intentionally prevent super characters from having a chance of missing only 1 in 20 attempts. I cannot recall if it was an official addendum, but the rule is nice and always used in my campaigns when the chars start getting that high for it to matter. Also keep in mind that most warriors have weapon bonuses and attribute to hit modifiers, so getting past 0 is pretty easy before they hit level 20. Hehe: Eg Level 20 fighter with dex 18 using a +5 long bow with a +5 arrow. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Bolt Thrower Date : 10-05-03 06:05 PM Bless you boys, THAC0 was the best thing to ever happen to D&D, 2nd ed had it all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : dawgfan Date : 10-06-03 12:33 AM In 2nd ed it was possible for your thaco to go to -10 unless you were in forgotten realms where there it was possible for a -12 thaco, and yes -10 was the best ac you could achieve, in our last 2e campaign one of my friends was playing an elven archer and was in the negative thaco by like eleventh lvl or something -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Malaug Date : 10-09-03 08:00 AM In the 2nd Edition Players Handbook it says:- "For a character higher than 20th level, find the Improvement Rate for the character's group in Table 54. There you'll find the number of levels a character must advance to reduce his THAC0 by 1 (or more) points." Legitimacy depends on which rule you follow. I personally would just continue reducing again and again, but a 1 always fails. I mean how often does a character get to level 20 anyway! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.