Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 numeraphile Jul 15, 2006 23:06:19	So I was first introduced to the Dark Sun campaign through the old computer game, Shattered Lands. I'd like to use the 3.5 PDF rules from the internet to start my own pen and paper DS game. However, there was one question I couldn't answer for myself... I know the flavor/roleplaying differences between preservers and defilers...and how defilers kill nature when they cast spells...and how preservers become tainted if they defile... The thing is, to the best of my knowledge...they both cast the same spells the same way. Therefore, why would a preserver ever want to defile? Does a preserver have some sort of actual restriction on his spells? (ie. spells that typically take a standard action are a full-round action for a preserver.) Please, I know this question may be answered somewhere else in the forums or on a site, but any help would be useful. Basically, I'd like the difference between preservers and defilers as far as game mechanics go....I would appreciate this TREMENDOUSLY.. Sincerely, The Numeraphile.
#2 greyorm Jul 16, 2006 0:52:05	Basically, I'd like the difference between preservers and defilers as far as game mechanics go....I would appreciate this TREMENDOUSLY. Defilers gain some benefits in the forms of feats and so forth -- providing things like extra spell levels, increased spell power, etc. -- that preservers can not take. For a higher level defiler, defiling gives your spells more power. In the days of 2nd Edition AD&D, there were lists of Path Dexter and Path Sinister spells -- spells only preservers or defilers could know -- but I don't know if there is anything similar in the current design. You could find the 2nd Edition spell lists of such in the "Preservers & Defilers" supplement. I know some people will also say "it's a role-playing difference" but role-playing differences provide no real incentive to play out the difference, as you note. In fact, these days I demand the flavor be supported by mechanics, and ignore stuff that says "Elves are wistful and charming and dwarves are the best car salesmen in the land", or whatever, without providing some kind of concrete mechanic that makes them behave/be percieved that way. As such, I don't know if the "Defiling Feats" benefits are enough support for you -- I'm not sure they are for me, but I understand the reasons this route was chosen -- but there are a number of other tweaks to the official design various other posters have come up with. I am sure they will be happy to share links to, and one of these may then provide enough differential oomph to satisfy. There was also a Dragon magazine which had 3E rules for defiling magic (eventually resulting in the caster becoming an undead creature); and perhaps some kind soul who recalls the issue number can share that with you.
#3 Pennarin Jul 16, 2006 2:50:41	Greyorm forgets to mention the most basic benefit, the one you get in spite of any feats or PrCs you take: the benefits of casting a spell while defiling. Creatures caught within your defiling radius experience pain, suffering a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and saves, lasting one round. Plant creatures (although not a daily occurence in most places on Athas) suffer 2 points of damage per level of the spell cast. Also, any defiler can choose to extend the casting time of his spells from a standard action to one round so as to get a +1 bonus to caster level. These bonuses and inflicted penalties are quite useful at low levels. To gain further inflicted penalties on your enemies you need to take the Leech or Arch Defiler PrCs.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 16, 2006 6:59:23	i my own campaign no one will touch defiling with a 10' pole since the mechanichs are not rewarding enough to balance the huge role play drawbacks... and the teptation to defile is too mild since it generally it doesn't make the difference between life or death. so try this: defile on the run Any arcane caster can "defile on the run". Doing it can cast again any spell (one each spell level) he alredy cast that day, (a 5ft level preserver will cast: 4(+1) 0° level 3(+1) 2° level 2(+1) 2° level 1(+1) 3° level, where the "(+1)" represents the ability to cast again one spell prepared in that level using defiling tecniques) it is sweet 'cause any life tretning enconter will trigger the "if only I had saved my fireball for this" attitude and will probaly end in an alive tainted preserver if he choose to prepare spells (or slots for spontaneus casters) PLANNING to defile when casting, he will prepare the spells (or have ready slots) as if he was ONE level higer in his pellcasting class (he will be now, officially, a defiler but the same 5ft level wizard will now act as a 6th level caster for ANY game mechanics) please note that preparing defiler spells or slots will negate the possibility to "defile on the run", this will balance the added power of defilers since powerful preservers will end having potentially more spell of their counterpart if only they resort to defile. I love thie sistem 'cause: 1) it is simple 2) it creates a powerful luring trough defiling 3) it function for sorceres as well as wizards (defiler sorc. are particularry powerfull) 4) it keeps the "easiear road to power" mood that I loved in 2° edition 5) it permits a neat save of one level in builds that need ability to cast a certain level of spells (Cerebromancer, Dragon, MT, ecc.) 6) saves a LOT of truble in keeping trak of all that feat effects Yust my 0.02 ⁈
#5 kelsen Jul 16, 2006 7:53:21	A simple way to rule defilers and preservers: Defilers and Preservers both belong to the WIZARD CLASS. By the time a wizard casts a spell, he may choose to defile or preserve. If he chooses to preserve, the spells is cast normally and nothing happens to the land around him. If he chooses to defile, he gains a caster level bonus to improve the level-dependent effects of the spell cast, however the land around him turns to ash (10 ft. radius/spell-level). The caster level bonus for defiling is set according to the abundance of vegetation in the terrain:
#6 terminus_vortexa Jul 16, 2006 13:03:56	That is an interesting alternative. Nice and simple.
#7 greyorm Jul 16, 2006 14:01:18	Greyorm forgets to mention the most basic benefit, the one you get in spite of any feats or PrCs you take: the benefits of casting a spell while defiling. Ah yes. Good of you to point that out -- since I'm not playing 3E or any d20 games, I don't really know the specific rules for any of it (I knew about the feats by sheer luck, having seen it mentioned on the boards somewhere). When I do get the chance to play DarkSun again, it will be with a rule system that aggravates me less than 3E or other D&D systems; there are a number of different systems I would like to try for different campaign ideas I've had. But I'm getting tangential.
#8 numeraphile Jul 16, 2006 16:56:58	Thank you, all of you, so much...I really appreciate your info. Now for me to describe Dark Sun to my players and see if it strikes their fancy...