This is the list I have developed so far:
Thyatians: These are the default humans of the Known World. They include the descendants of the original Thyatian and Kerendan tribes of the Empire of Thyatis. The majority of the populations of Glantri, Darokin and Ierendi are also considered Thyatians as are the ruling families of Karameikos.
Alasiyans: The population of Ylaruam. The population of Minrothad, although culturally different from those of Ylaruam are also considered to be Alasiyans.
Alphatian: The Pale Skinned True Alphatians
Cypri: The copper skinned Alphatians
Antalians: The humans of the Northern Reaches, Heldann, Wendar and Norwold.
Athruaginians: The population of the Athruagin Clans
Ethenengars: The humans of the Ethengar steppes.
Hattians: These humans dominate the Isle of Hattias and can also be found in other parts of the Thyatian Empire. They also make up the ruling class of Heldann, and a few are found among the upper classes of Karameikos.
Traladarns: This group makes up the majority of the population of Karameikos.
Makai: This is the native population of Ierendi, though many of those islanders are Thyatians.
The list above is a simplification, but should allow clear, good descriptions for the peoples of the Known World countries.
Comments?
The list above is a simplification, but should allow clear, good descriptions for the peoples of the Known World countries.
Comments?
Thyatians and Hattians are not that different, except from a cultural point of view.
There are also a few more ethnic groups, including the Flaems, Kaelic, Averoignese, and Nithians, though these could be considered minor groups (a generic "Laterran" group could still be included).
However, I'd consider Darokinians (and Ierendi with them) as a separate group, even though they're likely to be a mix of Traladaran, Antalian, Thyatian, Alasiyan and Laterrans. I'd consider the Alasiyan, Thyatian and Laterran contributes as minor, though.
Finally, the Minrothaddans are Nithian, not Alasiyan descended, IIRC.
Thyatians and Hattians are not that different, except from a cultural point of view.
Yes, true. I guess I have been torn between the cultural division lines and physical ones. I think I am leaning more towards cultural divisions now, although I realise that the "Human Races" label will be slightly inappropriate.
There are also a few more ethnic groups, including the Flaems, Kaelic, Averoignese, and Nithians, though these could be considered minor groups (a generic "Laterran" group could still be included).
However, I'd consider Darokinians (and Ierendi with them) as a separate group, even though they're likely to be a mix of Traladaran, Antalian, Thyatian, Alasiyan and Laterrans. I'd consider the Alasiyan, Thyatian and Laterran contributes as minor, though.
In a previous version, I included Darokinians and Glantrians as separate groups. These are both mish-mash groups with varying traits and origins, but it might be easier to deal with them in this way than to go into every little group. Laterrans, and various other groups will be mentioned in the descriptions of the headings though. Is this a better sollution?
For Ierendi, the idea of using the Darokinian group is interesting, but perhaps it would be just as well to state that in Ierendi, in addition to the Makai, humans from all other KW cultures have settled and to some extent adapted to Makai culture?
Finally, the Minrothaddans are Nithian, not Alasiyan descended, IIRC.
You are right. But aren't the Alasiyans also descended from Nithians?
Havard
good start. There are the dark skinned people from the southern continent, Thyatis has colonies there and would know of them, as well a some transplants living in the know world. Also I belive Thyatis has some asian like people who are distentive form the Ethengar. Ierendi has a coloney of albinos. Were they human or elfs? I rember that its genetic and not an oddity so they are a distentive group. Oh, the Glantrians from Myth. Thats a seperate sub-group. If you want really obscure, there is the very blue skinned humans living beneth Ylari, who name escapes me as I dont have my books with me. Or the Humans living in the lost valley on the Darokin/Karameikos boarder. I belive that's from b4 and b10 respetively. The people of the nation of Sind should be their own group. Most humans from Hule and the Savage coast? That im a lot less sure of.
I havent included these groups because they are outside the Known World, or have very small communites. With the Glantrians from Myth/Latterre, as mentioned in the previous post, I am considering making Glantrians in general a separate group, taking into account their unusual make-up of traits and origins.
Ierendi Albinos? Blue skinned humans? Not who these guys are?
Thanks for your comments
Havard
In a previous version, I included Darokinians and Glantrians as separate groups. These are both mish-mash groups with varying traits and origins, but it might be easier to deal with them in this way than to go into every little group. Laterrans, and various other groups will be mentioned in the descriptions of the headings though. Is this a better sollution?
Depends if it suits your purposes. IMO, there's a difference between Glantrians and Darokinians: Darokinians, except a few traditionalist groups, such as the Alasiyans, have a generally unified culture from Selenica to Akesoli, while Glantrians are strictly divided by the use of different languages, as well as by the presence of different political entities (the principalities) that represent each ethnic group.
For Ierendi, the idea of using the Darokinian group is interesting, but perhaps it would be just as well to state that in Ierendi, in addition to the Makai, humans from all other KW cultures have settled and to some extent adapted to Makai culture?
Yes, but if you exclude the Makai, who already have their own group, then they have more or less the same ethnic background of the Darokinians. Also the presence of many halflings always gives me the idea that many of the later inhabitants of Ierendi could come from Darokin (I'd say no Thyatians in recent times, and limited amounts of Northmen, Minrothaddans and Traladarans, so the largest part of the recent immigrants would be Darokinians).
You are right. But aren't the Alasiyans also descended from Nithians?
IIRC, they aren't. Their ancestors were a slave race of the Nithians, hailing from the Isle of Dawn.
GP
If one were to throw in fan-based additions to this, the list could become even longer (e.g., adding James Mishler's Dunael, or subdividing Darokinians into the ethnicities created through the work Aaron Nowack and I did).
Geoff
example that comes to mind are Hinterlanders, who are present (in fairly small numbers) in Thyatis proper. How about Ochaleans - are they considered Cypri? Is Sind part of the KW?
I suppose up to now we kept it to the GAZ lands, plus Thyatis.
If one were to throw in fan-based additions to this, the list could become even longer (e.g., adding James Mishler's Dunael, or subdividing Darokinians into the ethnicities created through the work Aaron Nowack and I did).
Uhm, I might have missed this one, or else I just forgot it. A link?
GP
FWIW, the Inlashari would look vaguely "Caucasian", but slightly shorter of build, with dark straight hair and almond-shaped eyes being common. Eraedans might resemble the Traldar, and the Molharraners would be fairly pale, and of slightly shorter stature and slighter build with dark hair and green eyes being common.
Inlashari blood is strong east of Corunglain (i.e., in hill villages and homesteads, where Callair used to be), and many in the city might have it as well. Some of the smaller communties of the Streel River, around Favaro, might still be largely Eraedan in character; Molharraner blood runs strong in the hill country near Elstrich (formerly Elstarath); although the town itself has become a melting pot.
Hope this helps,
Geoff
Depends if it suits your purposes. IMO, there's a difference between Glantrians and Darokinians: Darokinians, except a few traditionalist groups, such as the Alasiyans, have a generally unified culture from Selenica to Akesoli, while Glantrians are strictly divided by the use of different languages, as well as by the presence of different political entities (the principalities) that represent each ethnic group.
Well noted! I think this could still work as long as something similar to what you just wrote is included in the description. As for my purpose, it is related to the Essential KW Immortal thread: I want to create a booklet for players for a campaign set in the Known World. Since it wont be focusing on a specific country, but rather the KW in general, I am willing to make some generalizations to make it easier for the players to get the general overview. Think of it as an expansion to the KW section from the Rules Cyclopedia.
IERENDIANS:
Yes, but if you exclude the Makai, who already have their own group, then they have more or less the same ethnic background of the Darokinians. Also the presence of many halflings always gives me the idea that many of the later inhabitants of Ierendi could come from Darokin (I'd say no Thyatians in recent times, and limited amounts of Northmen, Minrothaddans and Traladarans, so the largest part of the recent immigrants would be Darokinians).
Cool! I will use this. It makes things even easier.
Minrothadders:
IIRC, they aren't. Their ancestors were a slave race of the Nithians, hailing from the Isle of Dawn.
Too bad. I guess the Thadders should have their own group then?
Havard
Minrothadders:
Too bad. I guess the Thadders should have their own group then?
Yes, they've also been quite insular for long times, granting them an additional degree of separation from whatever ethnic group they originally came from.
GP
Interesting discussion - I would think that a line should be drawn at some point, however, in terms of how detailled one would want to be - this seems reasonable as it is. One thought though - what about populations that arose in other parts of the world, but which can be found in the KW? The most prominent example that comes to mind are Hinterlanders, who are present (in fairly small numbers) in Thyatis proper. How about Ochaleans - are they considered Cypri? Is Sind part of the KW?
If we include Sind and the (per AC1000) Thyatian colonies, I would add:
Sindhi: Sind
Ochaelans: Ochaela
Hinterlanders/'Dunael": Hinterlands, Isle of Dawn
Nuari: Pearl Islands
Thothians: Or are they Alasyians?
In fact these groups would probably be more useful for a KW campaign than the two Alphatian groups.
If one were to throw in fan-based additions to this, the list could become even longer (e.g., adding James Mishler's Dunael, or subdividing Darokinians into the ethnicities created through the work Aaron Nowack and I did).
IIRC the Dunael are the MCelts of the Isle of Dawn, right? If so, that is why I used that name above. The Hinterlanders appear to have a similar culture though, at least according to DotE, so thats why I was thinking they could be thrown into the same group.
At least for my own purposes, I would prefer not dividing the Darokinians or others into smaller groups, except perhaps in the descriptions of this meta group: I am looking for labels that cover larger groups, although preferably not so large that they lose all meaning.
Going back to the original list, with modifications, we now have:
Thyatians & Kerendans: These are the default humans of the Known World. They include the descendants of the original Thyatian and Kerendan tribes of the Empire of Thyatis as well as the ruling class of Karameikos.
Alasiyans: The population of Ylaruam.
Alphatian, True: The Pale Skinned True Alphatians
Alphatian, Cypri: The copper skinned Alphatians.
Antalians: The humans of the Northern Reaches, Heldann, Wendar and Norwold.
Athruaginers: The population of the Athruagin Clans
Ethengars: The humans of the Ethengar steppes.
Hattians: These humans dominate the Isle of Hattias and can also be found in other parts of the Thyatian Empire. They also make up the ruling class of Heldann, and a few are found among the upper classes of Karameikos.
Traladarans: This group makes up the majority of the population of Karameikos.
Makai: This is the native population of Ierendi, though many of those living in Ierendi are Darokinians.
Darokinians: A group of mixed origins, but with a unified culture based on commerce and diplomacy. Found in Darokin and Ierendi.
Minrothadders: The humans of the Minrothad Islands.
Glantrians: A heavily mixed group divided between distinctly different subgroups, but with a common interest in magic. These humans are found in Glantri. Many have magical or other-worldly ancestors.
Havard
Sindhi: Sind
Don't forget that there are two different ethnic groups in Sind- the Urduk and the Sindhi (I think that's the name for them). The caste system developed, in part, due to the desire to keep both groups segregated.
Ochaelans: Ochaela
This one's kind of a tough call, I think. Physically, the Ochaleans are essentially just Commo Alphatians, but culturally they are somewhat different. I'd probably go with you on a separate Ochalean group for now, but maybe with something like "Alphatian, Ochalean" or something as a qualifier?
Thothians: Or are they Alasyians?
Good question. Culturally, they are more like the ancient Nithians (with some changes) than the current Alasiyan group. Physically, I don't know. I'd assume that (since Gaz2 says the Alasiyans came from the IoD) maybe they are the same group, but it's hard to say.
On the other hand, the Nithians described in Gaz2 are physically very different from the Alasiyans, so maybe if you go with a separate Nithian group in the KW, you could just have them be the same as the Thothians?
Ethengars: The humans of the Ethengar steppes.
Also the Makistani in the Alasiyan desert.
Don't forget that there are two different ethnic groups in Sind- the Urduk and the Sindhi (I think that's the name for them). The caste system developed, in part, due to the desire to keep both groups segregated.
I had forgotten about that. Could they be considered subgroups of the Sindhi tho?
This one's kind of a tough call, I think. Physically, the Ochaleans are essentially just Commo Alphatians, but culturally they are somewhat different. I'd probably go with you on a separate Ochalean group for now, but maybe with something like "Alphatian, Ochalean" or something as a qualifier?
Since I have moved towards culture weighing more than ethnicity in these groupings, I think they should be a separate group. "Alphatian, Ochaelan" is a possible label, or their Alphatian origin could just be included in their description.
Good question. Culturally, they are more like the ancient Nithians (with some changes) than the current Alasiyan group. Physically, I don't know. I'd assume that (since Gaz2 says the Alasiyans came from the IoD) maybe they are the same group, but it's hard to say.
On the other hand, the Nithians described in Gaz2 are physically very different from the Alasiyans, so maybe if you go with a separate Nithian group in the KW, you could just have them be the same as the Thothians?
This is interesting. Clearly Arabs and Egyptians are completely different so the same would likely be true about Nithians and Alasiyans. Though OTOH, as you say, the Alasiyans were supposed to be from rthe IoD so there should be some connection there?
Also the Makistani in the Alasiyan desert.
I had forgotten about those. Thanks for reminding me!
Havard