Cheers,
Cam
White Robe: "But... but he's a frickin' lich!!!"
Black Robe: "I do not believe the conclave should discriminate against our soul-free life-challenged colleagues."
White Robe: "... - ... You're joking. Hey Red, help me out here."
Red Robe: "Oh, hell no. Leave me out of this one."
Black Robe: "I vote to accept him."
White Robe: "But... but he's a frickin' lich!!!"
Black Robe: "I do not believe the conclave should discriminate against our soul-free life-challenged colleagues."
White Robe: "... - ... You're joking. Hey Red, help me out here."
Red Robe: "Oh, hell no. Leave me out of this one."
Nice.
A) Any mage who is willing to embrace lichdom will almost assuredly be a renegade.
B) Not even the Order of the Black Robes would be happy to accept a lich, purely out of consideration for their own power. The head of the Black Robes would not want his own power ecclipsed by that of some wretched undead thing, and most other Black Robes would feel the same.
C) Neither the white or the red robes would be much impressed if their evil counterparts started inlisting immortal members. There is a balance to mentain after all.
Hmm, here is why I won't think there would be any;
A) Any mage who is willing to embrace lichdom will almost assuredly be a renegade.
B) Not even the Order of the Black Robes would be happy to accept a lich, purely out of consideration for their own power. The head of the Black Robes would not want his own power ecclipsed by that of some wretched undead thing, and most other Black Robes would feel the same.
C) Neither the white or the red robes would be much impressed if their evil counterparts started inlisting immortal members. There is a balance to mentain after all.
A) Why?
B) Lichs aren't that much more powerful than any other wizard in game terms.
C)Why can't a reformed Lich become a red or white robe?
Hmm, here is why I won't think there would be any;
A) Any mage who is willing to embrace lichdom will almost assuredly be a renegade.
B) Not even the Order of the Black Robes would be happy to accept a lich, purely out of consideration for their own power. The head of the Black Robes would not want his own power ecclipsed by that of some wretched undead thing, and most other Black Robes would feel the same.
C) Neither the white or the red robes would be much impressed if their evil counterparts started inlisting immortal members. There is a balance to mentain after all.
Plus, they just stink to the high heavens (all that rotting flesh and all). LOLOL Course, that goes away eventually and you just have the creak and rattle of old bones, which is just annoying in its own right. :D
A) Why?
Because, this is Dragonlance, and not Faerun. Meaning; liches arent as common as stray cats. Liches are rare on Krynn. Hence, the ritual for lichdom is also rare. This can be for any number of reasons. The conclave could have destroyed knowledge of it, it could have all but dissapeared in the cataclysm etc.
Also, lichdom is an unspeakably dark and forbidden rite. That is just a given in any setting that is not FR (where there is always an epic NPC per square mile, resulting in what I like to call "Lich pop culture"). I doubt even a Black Robe would be willing to so easily cross this line, even if they had access to the ritual.
Renegades, the dangerous ones specifically, are the ones who will go to any lengths to obtain forbidden knowledge, and actually have the drive to implement it. Which is why I say that renegades are the most likely candidates for lichdom.
Also, any lich, regardless of its origion, is unlikely to consider mortal mages its peers, and be even less likely to subject itself to the laws of mortal mages. So even if a lich was a member of one of the orders before its transformation, its is highly unlikely to remain one afterwards.
B) Lichs aren't that much more powerful than any other wizard in game terms.
Except for immortality, enhanced ability scores, lack of mortal weaknesses, and being nigh-indestructable...
C)Why can't a reformed Lich become a red or white robe?
:OMG!
Reformed lich?
Did I read that right?
Considering that lichdom is unspeakably evil by its very essence, I find this a bit odd.
But, I understand your point. I simply refuse to accept that a reformed lich is possible.
Liches you see, arent simply bony mages that pop back in a few days when they die. I don't mean to be disrespectfull in any way, but I think that the belief that liches can reform is rather ignorant of the state of lichdom outside of game mechanics (not flaming, just trying to illustrate).Through becomming a lich, one sacrifices everything that makes you mortal. After the transformation, you are distinctly changed. The reason liches are so power hingry is because they have nothing else to hold onto. A lich cannot know love, compassion, tenderness, or the typical "good" emotions. Not any longer. The closest it can get is the memory of these things, which is pale in comparrison.
Specifically, a lich cannot reform, because not only would it have no desire to do so, it would simply be unable. Liches arent alive. They exist. This means that they do not grow as living beings do. They accumulate experiences, but they do not assorb these experiences, question them, or consider them. Im not sure of how exactly to put it into words in English, but the thought process of reformation simply isnt there. That part of the lich's nature was lost with its humanity.
It is a lich now. Profoundly and inherantly different from any living being.
It can't "just change" its nature.
For a better, if somewhat short, explanation of what Im trying to get at here, see the Undead Psychology stuff in Libris Mortis.
See, I just don't like stuff like lichdom being approached in an everyday, "oh well, so what" kind of manner...
However, one area I would disagree is that point that all Liches are inherently evil and must remain that way for eternity.
I think it can be reasonably debated by rational people that most of the long-lived, and prideful to a fault sometimes, races could conceivably have liches as guardians of ancient lore and or family history, lineage etc.
Mostly this conjures up images of a wizened Elven Lich, that has chosen through love for his bloodline and such to make the Lich 'sacrifice' to protect the millenia of elven history.
There are others that can be equally logical, though incredibly rare of course. A cleric or other devotee of any religion, though anti-undead zealots certainly wouldn't allow it no matter what, that are in charge of protecting the written or oral history and doings of the particular god. Assuming there weren't extraplanar peeps doing that in the god's home plane.
So, even though incredibly rare, I think it can be something possible in the greater scheme of worldly things.
As for FR and Liches, they are as common as prostitutes. Every corner has at least one of each. Adventurers can't walk down Main Street without getting propositioned and/or blasted by Horrid Wilting.
I agree with damn near everything that UmbralKnight just bloviated.
Why thank you!
However, one area I would disagree is that point that all Liches are inherently evil and must remain that way for eternity.
I think it can be reasonably debated by rational people that most of the long-lived, and prideful to a fault sometimes, races could conceivably have liches as guardians of ancient lore and or family history, lineage etc.
Mostly this conjures up images of a wizened Elven Lich, that has chosen through love for his bloodline and such to make the Lich 'sacrifice' to protect the millenia of elven history.
There are others that can be equally logical, though incredibly rare of course. A cleric or other devotee of any religion, though anti-undead zealots certainly wouldn't allow it no matter what, that are in charge of protecting the written or oral history and doings of the particular god. Assuming there weren't extraplanar peeps doing that in the god's home plane.
So, even though incredibly rare, I think it can be something possible in the greater scheme of worldly things.
Yes, I see your point here. Though, in the case of the Elven Baelnorn, I like to think of it as a different ritual, as the one in the MM is taged with "unspeakably evil" and all. I also rationalise it through the inherent goodness of the elven soul, alowing it to retain some moral perspective. Overall, I see the Baelnorn and the lich as two different kinds of creatures with very close similiarities, but very profound differences.
I do maintain that an evil wizard who embraces lichdom will indeed remain evil, simply because it isnt in the nature of an undead being to change.
As for FR and Liches, they are as common as prostitutes. Every corner has at least one of each. Adventurers can't walk down Main Street without getting propositioned and/or blasted by Horrid Wilting.
Well said! :D
But for power hungry wizard types, the standard lich fits them to 'T' including the avenue to become lichy.
Clerical ones may very well have different methods to attain Lichness, each depending on their purpose, assuming it isn't just a power grab.
Then Psions, Bards, hell Druidic liches are in theory possible. Druid ones would really require some deep thought about all that is unnatural. But not impossible.
Ahem. This is getting off track. I apologize.
I don't think that any of the robes would feel like it is in their best interest to have a lich serve as the head of the Conclave. A lot of it would be selfishness, even amongst the white robes. None of the future wizards of any color would ever hold that position. Especially the black robes, who compete, in some instances to the death, for 'rank' under Nuitari. For someone to have a stranglehold on that position would lead, possibly, to an alliance of all the robes with the express purpose of overthrowing the sitting Lich.
Being a lich would not be acceptable because necromancy is only allowed by Black Robes.
They tend to specialize in it, but it's not restricted to them by the rules as written.
Is there any reason why liches cannot be member of the wizards of high sorcery? Is there a general rule against it?
Liches tend to be lone creatures.
They are obviously power hungry and look at all others with power as rivals, as such, they tend ot be awfull at working in groups.
And, they become undead completely by choice. Unlike any other kind of undead, they chose to become what they are. Even Strahd was horrified to discover that Azalin was a lich, and he's the vampire that the demiplane of dread was created for.
It's very rare that you'll have a lich with a group of people working with it, and they normally do everything that they can to keep their lichdom secret. So it may be possible for a lich to join the Wizards of High Sorcery, but I doubt that it would advertise it's status.
I may be wrong on this, but technically wasn't Fistandantilus a lich. He was the head of the black robes for a long time before the cataclysm hit, and was the owner of the tower of high sorcery in palanthas.
I don't think he was a lich. I think that he possessed living bodies, not dead ones.
IMHO, I think that the vast majority of liches would be considered immediately as renegade, had they formerly been a member of the WoHS. If they weren't before, then well, nothing changes now. The simplest reason for this is to attempt to maintain PR. It is a bit idealistic to assume that the Conclave would approach anything from a purely moralistic approach - after all, they knew exactly what they were doing during Raistlin's test.
The act of becoming a lich is evil... well, okay, no arguement there, but then again, one of the orders is kind already dedicated to that. So to say that a lich is inheritently evil is in truth an irrelevant fact. As for immortality, the elves and irda already have that one covered for the most part. The abominations that Raistlin and others were responsible for show that the Conclave is willing to turn a blind eye, so long as they are getting something out it.
People have come to "accept" the existence of the Black Robes as a fact of life. While they may be feared and hated, it is part of the way of things. While the commoner might not like it, they understand the fact that there are black robe mages - after all, there is not a man out there that hasn't been tempted to step over that line for something that he wants so badly at some point in his life. That being said, however, the average person, while able to comprehend evil and greed, is not going to be able to fathom someone purposefully killing themselves so that they can life as an animated corpse. The benefit of that type of power is not something that is easily understandable by someone who does already possess the knowledge to understand the basics of the process to begin with. So while the average person might be willing to tolerate the existence of the Black Robe order, that is not so likely if they thought that they were all turning themselves into undead monsters - and even if you only had a couple, that couple would turn into the majority of the entire order (not just the black robes) in the rumors of the commoners. The next thing you have is farmers with pitchforks and torches and Knights armed with righteous cause knocking on your door.
Now, that being said, I would not put it past the Conclave to allow a lich to remain in the Order, provided that he agrees to play by their rules - especially if they can figure out some way to magically insure that he does so, so long as they are able to get something worthwhile out of it and preferably keep it all quiet and under the table.
Just my couple of copper pieces,
Pahke
Now as far as for lich WoHS, I would think that the orders would be against simply because undead typically fall under the worship of Chemosh and not any of the Deities of magic. If a Lich was able to seperate from that restriction and still follow the rules of his order's deity then I do not see why the orders would not allow a lich. And no not all liches are evil, I am not exactly sure how but there are good liches in FR (oh the hated realm).
When your undead, then your under influence of Chemosh. I dont think Moon Gods like that. And that makes you Renegade. Some Necromancer Black Robes would probably seek the Liche-making spells/rituals all the time to continue their existens in the world if it would be that easy. Just turn yourself more powerful creature and it's ok. No, no. Then you lose your soul to Chemosh.
Let's give another example: Former Knight of Solamnia turned Death Knight because causing cataclysm or something. Now, after couple hundred of years he decides to join order again and become good?!?!??! Saving innocent peasants and princesses, fighting evil dragons, Helping Kender...etc. ;)
Probably right about the PR though ..., definitely low profile for the public.