Knights of Solamnia - w/o PrC, just the Knight class

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

ozyburrfoot

Sep 22, 2006 9:48:15
So I've started a new campaign and I never understood why the PrC for the KoS includes spellcasting progressions, as nothing I ever saw in the novels would support this. It seemed more like a hold over from trying to make the KoS into Krynn's paladins.

So anyways to fix my problems, I've just let one of my players take the Knight class and I figure I can just determine at which points he can petition to become a member of each Order. What I could use help with is, at which levels should each Order be available?

The excerpts from the PHB II has the rules for the Knight so here they are, if you dont have the PHB II
#2

cam_banks

Sep 22, 2006 9:49:49
We took care of this with the Knightly Orders of Ansalon sourcebook, now available. I suggest you take a look!

Cheers,
Cam

So I've started a new campaign and I never understood why the PrC for the KoS includes spellcasting progressions, as nothing I ever saw in the novels would support this. It seemed more like a hold over from trying to make the KoS into Krynn's paladins.

So anyways to fix my problems, I've just let one of my players take the Knight class and I figure I can just determine at which points he can petition to become a member of each Order. What I could use help with is, at which levels should each Order be available?

#3

ozyburrfoot

Sep 22, 2006 9:52:56
Hmm, only problem there is I'm going to be running the game again today and its probably going to be a while before I can purchase a new book.
#4

zombiegleemax

Sep 22, 2006 15:52:47
The new PRCS from the Knightly Orders are great!
#5

clarkvalentine

Sep 22, 2006 21:07:05
Just allow him to advance in the orders when appropriate in the story. Don't tie it to level. Think about what each order exemplifies. When the character also exemplifies that virtue, allow him to enter that order.
#6

ozyburrfoot

Sep 22, 2006 23:15:34
Yeah, actually after his behavior in todays session he may end up becoming a Rogue Knight anyways, lol.
#7

Dragonhelm

Sep 23, 2006 9:20:06
So I've started a new campaign and I never understood why the PrC for the KoS includes spellcasting progressions, as nothing I ever saw in the novels would support this.

I never understood why the authors didn't include spellcasting knights in the novels since it was in the gaming material. :D

Sword Knights casted spells in Dragons of Summer Flame, by the way. ;)
#8

ozyburrfoot

Sep 23, 2006 9:51:40
Did they? Oh, well I dont remember that, but it still seems unnecessary to me.
#9

Dragonhelm

Sep 23, 2006 11:43:48
Knightly Orders of Ansalon and The Crown and the Sword give a good solution to the discrepency, giving the Knights of Solamnia some good flavor.

Basically, there is now a suborder of the Sword Knights called Clerists. Most Sword Knights don't case divine spells. The Clerists are Sword Knights who gain divine power from Kiri-Jolith. I think this is a good solution that allows for both options.

On top of that, the Solamnic Auxiliary Mages are now known as the Kingfishers.

Pretty cool, huh?
#10

cam_banks

Sep 23, 2006 13:44:36
Sword Knights casted spells in Dragons of Summer Flame, by the way. ;)

They did the equivalent of laying on hands, which may have been spellcasting or it could have been the paladin ability.

Cheers,
Cam
#11

zombiegleemax

Sep 23, 2006 17:12:29
When did they the Knights of the Sword heal in Summer Flame?
#12

zombiegleemax

Oct 04, 2006 7:37:19
In many of the older novels, especially ones (timeline wise) before the cataclysm, some of the Knights did have Cleric spells. In fact, the Novel The Cataclysm has a short story that ends with the main character, after having her Cleric of Mishikal friend die, return to the knighthood which she sees as having lost it's way. Her final statement is somethinbg like, "You've lost your powers, haven't you?" before leaving.
#13

zombiegleemax

Oct 05, 2006 8:44:42
What is the name of that story?
#14

zombiegleemax

Oct 08, 2006 8:25:28
I think it is either True Knight, or Seekers, but not for certain. It is the two characters on the cover of the book, though.
#15

zombiegleemax

Oct 09, 2006 10:35:18
IIRC it was the brother of that lady. She ends up getting married to the cleric of Mishakel and they are the great great or something like that grandparents of Riverwind.
#16

xanthus

Oct 17, 2006 10:54:35
I also remember a Knight of the Rose (in fact, I think it may have been the Grand Master actually) in Kaz the Minotaur casting healing magic, saying that "Paladine saw fit to make him a cleric as well as a Knight."

I personally like spellcasting knights myself and dislike the way they're doing it in Knights of Ansalon. It makes it so you don't have to take levels in Crown Knight to go to Sword Knight, etc. I prefer the system in the core book. If you've got a character advancing into Sword Knight during a time where there are no gods (either Age of Despair or Age of Mortals) and they're not using the power of the heart, then just ramp up the combat capabilities to counter balance the loss of spellcasting (d10 HD and fighter BAB).

-X
#17

zombiegleemax

Oct 17, 2006 11:04:14
I wholeheartedly agree with you there. I loved Towers of High Sorcery, but both Knightly Orders and Holy Order just lacked anything all that secial in my opinion, and I think especially for Knightly Orders actually sort of backstepped into the player options. I like the history and all, but the mechanics just are not there for me. Besides, after all the "Mishakal is becomming more militant" blah blah, I am dissapointed that she was not included at all really ine the Knights of Solomnia section or even mention any little auxilery orders based around her or any other deity.
#18

zombiegleemax

Oct 17, 2006 12:29:55
There should have been more information on the Auxiliary, besides the Kingfishers, and I wonder why Mishakel was not named the new god of the Orders?
#19

cam_banks

Oct 17, 2006 13:54:58
I personally like spellcasting knights myself and dislike the way they're doing it in Knights of Ansalon. It makes it so you don't have to take levels in Crown Knight to go to Sword Knight, etc. I prefer the system in the core book.

Luckily, you can still use the system in the core book.

I'm not a fan of the prestige class level stacking. One of the aims of the revised versions in Knightly Orders was to eliminate messy character stat blocks and go for what the original intent was for the Solamnic Knights, which was that you stayed as a novice/initiate/etc in an Order until you either moved on to the next Order or committed to the one you were in. We didn't see any need to require taking prestige class levels for what amounted to an in-character roleplaying exercise. The PrCs are for those who have settled in their Orders, not those who are passing through.

Cheers,
Cam
#20

zombiegleemax

Oct 17, 2006 15:29:28
I do like how the PRCs were re-done, it makes them a bit more attinable and not having all of the other classes that were necessary to qualify to join a higher order. I think it is one of the best things to have been done. I do wish that the Knights of Neraka had been redone in that way as well.
#21

clarkvalentine

Oct 17, 2006 18:18:17
I do wish that the Knights of Neraka had been redone in that way as well.

They always were that way.
#22

falconer

Oct 18, 2006 1:07:16
Knights of Solamnia, specifically the Knights of the Sword, were first given cleric spells in Dragonlance Adventures, published in 1987. That was after the original two novel trilogies had already been published, as well as the original fourteen gaming modules/supplements (1984-1986). Those products had all knights simply as members of the Fighter class and nothing else. In fact, most characters in DL in those days were just Fighters, and their uniqueness was not derived from gaming stats. In my opinion, this is part of what made the original characters so compelling.

Flash forward to today, I've been looking at the d20 DL line. I don't have Knightly Orders of Ansalon (yet?), but I read the Knights of Solamnia classes in Dragonlance Campaign Setting and the variant rules in the War of the Lance supplement, and I definitely decided I liked the "The Knighthood After the Cataclysm" variant from WOTL which has them not using magic the best. I'm sure KOOA does it better. Regards.
#23

cam_banks

Oct 18, 2006 7:55:17
In fact, most characters in DL in those days were just Fighters, and their uniqueness was not derived from gaming stats.

To be fair, most characters in D&D in those days were just fighters. Also, I think the fact that some characters could never advance beyond the mid-level range of their class, such as Laurana, really brought home the problem of the system at the time. While it's noble to think of the Golden General being who she was for her placement in history rather than her 4 or 5 levels in the fighter class (she was an elf, AND female - the classic AD&D glass ceiling) I don't think this kind of thing holds much water now.

Cheers,
Cam
#24

Dragonhelm

Oct 18, 2006 14:01:26
...and I definitely decided I liked the "The Knighthood After the Cataclysm" variant from WOTL which has them not using magic the best. I'm sure KOOA does it better. Regards.

The WotL variant reminds me a lot of the old Tales of the Lance progression for knights. That was a definite improvement over the DLCS. A little multiclassing with cleric, and your Sword Knight could effectively be a Clerist.

The Clerist role, IMO, is a GREAT fix to the question of whether Sword Knights casted spells or not. Answer - some don't, some do. Now we can have it both ways.
#25

falconer

Oct 19, 2006 1:37:40
To be fair, most characters in D&D in those days were just fighters.

The AD&D Players Handbook alone had 11 classes. My own AD&D campaign has 1 Assassin, 2 Clerics, 1 Druid, 1 Fighter, 1 Magic-User, 1 Monk, and 1 Ranger, and I imagine that to be pretty typical. So DL was definitely simplified in that respect, almost conforming to Basic D&D sensibilities, I'd say.
Also, I think the fact that some characters could never advance beyond the mid-level range of their class, such as Laurana, really brought home the problem of the system at the time. While it's noble to think of the Golden General being who she was for her placement in history rather than her 4 or 5 levels in the fighter class (she was an elf, AND female - the classic AD&D glass ceiling) I don't think this kind of thing holds much water now.

See, I think quite the opposite. Take The Lord of the Rings for example. Frodo, in my estimation, would be max a 4th level Fighter by the end of the story. It's almost Tolkien's main point that his primary hero is no Conan. Laurana I can see working up to 5th level by the end of the Chronicles--not too shabby in 1e AD&D terms, but not a Super Hero either. That doesn't make her less of a great and potent character in the story, simply her strength does not lie in terms of D&D combat prowess. She really doesn't physically "kick butt" in the novels, after all, but is consistently portrayed as the most completely untrained and weak member of the party. Her strength lies in her love for Tanis, and she's the Golden General due to her charisma and wisdom, if anything.

I really give Tracy and his team credit for helping us look beyond the stats by simplifying them as much as possible. I suppose the SAGA game tried to do the same, in a way. d20 seems to have moved in the opposite direction, however. Regards.
#26

falconer

Oct 19, 2006 1:45:41
The WotL variant reminds me a lot of the old Tales of the Lance progression for knights. That was a definite improvement over the DLCS. A little multiclassing with cleric, and your Sword Knight could effectively be a Clerist.

The Clerist role, IMO, is a GREAT fix to the question of whether Sword Knights casted spells or not. Answer - some don't, some do. Now we can have it both ways.

I quite agree. That is indeed the most sensible way to handle it. Regards.
#27

zombiegleemax

Oct 19, 2006 3:35:16
I would prefere a Clerist Pr. Class myself, sort of like a (forth OOC branch of the Knighthod), than the substitution levels, which are worded strangly, and in my opinion don't make much sense. Plus, I've never been a fan of Kiri-Jolith, who I see as more a FR deity type, than DL. You don't really knopw anything about it, his history, in depth beliefs, ect. . . rather than most other deities who appeare in both novels and game books from time to time. And what does a bison have to do with chivalry? A pheonix I can see with a little stretching. . .
#28

cam_banks

Oct 19, 2006 5:48:29
I really give Tracy and his team credit for helping us look beyond the stats by simplifying them as much as possible. I suppose the SAGA game tried to do the same, in a way. d20 seems to have moved in the opposite direction, however. Regards.

I think you will find that each "generation" of Dragonlance game design has worked with what it has available, and created additional material when it has suited. This applies to Tracy and the others on the original team as much as it does to us.

Cheers,
Cam
#29

zombiegleemax

Oct 19, 2006 11:19:34
The book was great! The one complaint I have is with the KOT. All of the other classes were re-done except for them.
#30

cam_banks

Oct 19, 2006 13:16:56
The book was great! The one complaint I have is with the KOT. All of the other classes were re-done except for them.

That's because we didn't need to. Besides, it let us handle some new and interesting factions of the Dark Knights, which we couldn't really do much with for the other two Orders.

Cheers,
Cam
#31

zombiegleemax

Oct 20, 2006 1:07:33
I am just waiting for Zyvelyn (I think) to realize that Redhammer was there when Takhisis "stole" the world and magic it back to the way it should be, (as in before summer flame).
#32

zombiegleemax

Oct 20, 2006 19:47:09
That is true, Mr. Cam Banks.