Why is there so much divine energy on athas?
For a world with no gods, the people that inhabite it are able to wield tradionally(aka in 2E D&D) signifigantly more divine power then those who live in worlds with gods present. So why is this? I am not looking for canon answers but instead your own personal( out of the box) ideas as too why this godless world is awash with the energies of the divine when the few sources of it are dying(the elemental planes)
--so, without any gods, Athasians can become truly potent magically NB
--thus, taKe away the gods, and mortals suddenly gave a massive influx of power NB
This is how it works, life energy fuels magic (wait for it, I'll get back to divine energy in a moment) life energy fuels magic, that life energy comes from various sources, plants (wizards/sorcerors), animals (dragons), the sun (sadira and perhaps a few others), athas itself (druids).
Preservers and defilers pull from plants, the latter half destroying the source of energy. When anything dies, it's spirit, so to speak, goes to the gray. Atatched to that spirit is a spark of the life energy that spirit took with it from it's body. Spirits exist for a time in the gray before basically being disolved into the plane itself, fading away. That residual spark remains as part of the plane. (Hence, wizards that can pull from the gray to fuel their spells).
There is a linke between the gray and the elemental planes, so a portion of that life energy is funneled to those planes. Once there it naturally infuses that plane with energy and vitality. In return and in order to grow, it was found that striving to replenish that energy on Athas creates a cycle that improves life on the plane. The energy is taken in part, and filtered and sent back to Athas' clerics. Those clerics then go about using the life energy which has been filtered and diluted with elemental energies, and they promote life according to that energy type. (Fire promotes cities that use lots of fire, Water promotes an accumulation of water which also provides for life, Earth promotes farming and growing things, and Air promotes freedom and travel, both which enhance a potential for life.) The Paraelements are largely unaffected in this chain, perhaps with the exception of rain. They change little over time, but the rest of the elements have drained so much that the para's seem so much bigger.
Back to the link. A person dies, a plant dies, anything living, it's energy is absorbed by the gray, and funneled over time to the elemental planes. Which then send it on back down to athas where life begins anew. A sort of cycle you see? A natural cycle as normal as the life death birth cycle that druids are so aware of.
Now, when a defiler steps in, and destroys a plant, or a person in the case of a dragon. He removes that life energy from the normal cycle. (Sorrta like chopping down a tree and burning it. It didn't die naturally, so it can't rot and make the ground around it fertile for other plants, so it is removed from helping the very soil that gave it life). There has been a lot of abuse in that regard over the centuries, and now the SK's are able to drain from the planes directly via the vortices... further corrupting and depleting the cycle.
Druids. These types gain energy directly from Athas itself. A pure form of energy much like the elmental energies, Athas has it's own life force, so grand and so potent that Rajaat nearly destroyed himself when he tried to tap it. Druids are given limited access to this energy in the form of elemental spells. Divine energy it's thought of, due to it's mimicry of the style of the elemental planes. And of course Athas would mimic that style, it's natural, litterally. The energy used by Druids is just as pure as that used by elemental clerics but without the need for the gray so much, as all life is connected on Athas. Spirits of the Land have a much greater connection to this life energy than do druids.
Side Note on Psionics: This energy is entirely internal, yet it is still energy, and has an interaction with the world around it. Which is why a Null Psionics Field is able to nullify some if not all of the same effects as a Null Magic Field. This energy is totally independant and clean, which I think was the intent of the green age, an attempt by the nature masters to leave the tampering of nature behind and avoid further damage to the ecosystem by nature masters and benders. (Then along comes Rajaat and Magic and defiling and things are worse off than ever).
So why is there so much more Divine Energy on Athas? Because it's part of the natural life cycle. There are no God's to divy it out according to a portfolio or philosophy. It's simply energy that is meant to be used and which grows when used properly. Sadly, Athas is still dying, and something drastic may be required if the planes, and Athas itself is to survive... Perhaps that is why so much divine energy is around.. a valiant struggle to offset the damage being done by giving tons of energy in order to replenish the world...
(Thoughts??)
Todays question is:
Why is there so much divine energy on athas?
For a world with no gods, the people that inhabite it are able to wield tradionally(aka in 2E D&D) signifigantly more divine power then those who live in worlds with gods present. So why is this? I am not looking for canon answers but instead your own personal( out of the box) ideas as too why this godless world is awash with the energies of the divine when the few sources of it are dying(the elemental planes)
Not all sources are dying: the paraelemental planes are abundant on Athas and they can provide divine energy too.
Furthermore, elemental clerics are rare and druids are very rare due to prosecution by defilers (according to Earth, Air, Fire, and Water). So, those two classes don't use that much divine energy.
Templars are much more abundant, but they use energy that is stolen from the elemental planes by their sorceror king.
Yes, I am aware of Athas' ravaged state, but c'mon---how much of a drain can the templarate really be? It's obviously not as much a concern as it is an annoyance, as the greatest elemental and paraelemental lords've not seen fit to put a stop to it, or even order their clerics to look into it.
--and you can't tell me the elemental powers're that detatched NB
Green Age clerics were abundant enough to make the combined templarate of all 7 cities look tame
Where they? I am curious where you did get that information from.
IMO, one is better served by detaching the 3e metarules, like the cosmology framework, from the setting and then come up with explanations from within the setting and invent new framework rules that fit the setting.
Again, IMO, there isn't an arcane/divine/psionic dichotomy. For Athas, there is a life force/mindscape/extraplanar elements/extraplanar souls/extraplanar unexistance dichotomy. There is no such thing as divine "energy" like there is not such thing as arcane energy. I do recognize magic energy and psionic energy though...
I am okay with a magic/psionic dichotomy, interestingly. Call me weird. I do wish there was a better differentiation between magic and psionic in 3e rules...
Where they? I am curious where you did get that information from.
....they were numerous enough to have an entire city of them, their acolytes, and 6their enforcers.
--Godshome was the Athasian Vatican NB
Good stuff, Lyric. I remember when we were working on the now shelved Planes of Athas with Dawnstealer, and we had very similar ideas on the link between the Grey and the Elemental Planes.
Yes that was quite a while ago, I do still exist though i don't comment as much anymore. I figure my ideas aren't that bad considering I've only read the spinoff darksun stuff and the boxed sets, also that I've not had a chance to play in years. I still have an active imagination though.
If I ever get a chance to play a 3e darksun game though, I think I'll take a Psion/Wilder and become an Avangion who serves Rajaat's cause (though not likely his methods.. but maybe) and possibly I'll even free him as well.
(I'm a fan of letting the big bad guy shake things up a bit, it tends to put things in motion).ooh, I don't know if I mentioned how I figured the Black fits into everything, I figure the black is sort of a representation of darkness vs light... not death, as there is a life after death, but an absence of life and light and warmth, all that. Kind of like anti-matter vs matter. Still useable as an energy source, just totally different. And while the Black is a representation of the absense of things, it's more like a negative vs a positive (not to be confused with the planes of the same name, I'm just saying it has a value, even though it's on a different end of the spectrum). The Hollow, that would be like zero... void. Nothing at all.. So while Rajaat is there, he is undefined, and unable to harness anything or do anything. His spirit is separated from his body, so he can't harness his psionic energy, and he can't access his body to draw any arcane energies or clerical energies. In the hollow, it's somewhat unclear how anything can exist there at all, but that's the nature of the planes, sometimes they exist in unusual or seemingly contradictory laws from other realms. handy how that works out huh
I absolutely detest the 3.x arcane/divine dichotomy. Intensely nonsensical especially when trying to apply to settings where it makes no sense, like Dark Sun.
Interestingly, the way that I interpret the energy sources in Athas is something like this:
"Divine" energy is given. "Arcane" energy is taken. But it's all just energy -- be it elemental tinged, or plant tinged, or animist spirit-of-the-land it's all pretty much the same stuff -- the essence of life.
Psions are lucky enough to be able to use their own life-essence. Everyone else depends on some sort of outside source. Probably why, when I'm playing a psion, I tend to be distainful of other caster types. That, or it's just fun.
Interestingly, the way that I interpret the energy sources in Athas is something like this:
"Divine" energy is given. "Arcane" energy is taken. But it's all just energy -- be it elemental tinged, or plant tinged, or animist spirit-of-the-land it's all pretty much the same stuff -- the essence of life.
Psions are lucky enough to be able to use their own life-essence. Everyone else depends on some sort of outside source. Probably why, when I'm playing a psion, I tend to be distainful of other caster types. That, or it's just fun.
That's pretty much how I see it, though I haven't defined psion energy yet, other than it's internal, but that's basically the point I was getting to with all my fluff above. it's all life energy.
....they were numerous enough to have an entire city of them, their acolytes, and 6their enforcers.
--Godshome was the Athasian Vatican NB
Sorry to ask again, but *where* did you get that information from?
Sorry to ask again, but *where* did you get that information from?
Revised edition box set, which had the blurb on Godshome. It states quite clearly that Godshome was built to house the central shrines of the Green Age false religions.
Now, one could suppose that Green Age clerics didn't cast spells because they prayed to gods that weren't there, but I believe they were elemental and paraelemental clerics that simply...misinterpreted the source of their spells.
--it would be quite easy to misinterpret elementals as angels when one is looking for gods NB
these are all interesting answers, but not really what I was looking for. To me the question feels sort of like this "why is athas covered in mufflers if it has never had and never will have cars?"
It is canon that Athas does not have gods now, now has it ever had gods at any point in the past.
--this obsession with the notion of Athasian gods is nonsense, canonically NB
It is canon that Athas does not have gods now, now has it ever had gods at any point in the past.
--this obsession with the notion of Athasian gods is nonsense, canonically NB
exactly, if there are no gods then why is there so much divine magic
just like if there are no cars why is there so many liscence plates lying all over the place?
I'm not trying to say that the existance of divine magic proves that there must have been gods at one point, what I am trying to ask is why is there divine magic at all, let alone the huge amount of it that we currently see?
exactly, if there are no gods then why is there so much divine magic
just like if there are no cars why is there so many liscence plates lying all over the place?
I'm not trying to say that the existance of divine magic proves that there must have been gods at one point, what I am trying to ask is why is there divine magic at all, let alone the huge amount of it that we currently see?
I think the problem is one of terminology. "Divine" is not a term I see anyone on Athas using to describe the magic of a templar, druid or cleric (except maybe for the templars whose SKs like to think of themselves as gods). The only reason we have the term "divine magic" is because it has a standard definition in the 3.5 ruleset. Athasians don't have anything of the sort.
I think the problem is one of terminology. "Divine" is not a term I see anyone on Athas using to describe the magic of a templar, druid or cleric (except maybe for the templars whose SKs like to think of themselves as gods). The only reason we have the term "divine magic" is because it has a standard definition in the 3.5 ruleset. Athasians don't have anything of the sort.
EXACTLY. Athasians would divide magic into "arcane" and "elemental."
--that's how I've ALWAYS run the in-game terminology NB
I think the problem is one of terminology. "Divine" is not a term I see anyone on Athas using to describe the magic of a templar, druid or cleric (except maybe for the templars whose SKs like to think of themselves as gods). The only reason we have the term "divine magic" is because it has a standard definition in the 3.5 ruleset. Athasians don't have anything of the sort.
Exactly.Perhaps commoners would be able to tell the difference between Clerical, Druid and Templar magic, but fundamentally, they're all the same.
I think that Athas's foundations are the elemental plane themselves. And that so strong was its link to the elements that something evolved from the ''mixe'' .
A few years ago I posted my theory on the energie of Athas witch I called Minde (pronounce Mindey) I wont rewrite all of it here but just so you'll understand my point of view on the subject i'll say the following:
Please bare in mind that in no way am I trying to create the first God by putting a name to the Building blocks of Athas. I named it for it was shorter for me to write then THE NATURAL EVOLUTION. To me , Minde is the essence of life on Athas same as THE NATURAL EVOLUTION OF ALL DNA ON EARTH witch allows creatures to evolve. Now, who would say that The Natural Evolution on earth is a god??
Minde is to Athas what DNA is to living creatures on earth.
Water is the blood of Athas witch allows (remember the Blue Age) Minde to ''flow'' life anywhere on the planet. The only peculiar anathema of Minde is that it is ethereal but still strongly linked to anything liquid on Athas and Athas alone.
To me, the first to recognise how life on Athas evolved were the Dolphins.
Being an inteligent race, they understood part of it anyway and eventually created the first water elementals. (they basicaly were able to manipulate the water arond them: remember the movie The Abyss were strange alien manta rays could control water)
The Dolphins were not able to manipulate the life energie of Athas like the Rhulisti would later be able to master but rather manipulate the raw energie emanating from it.
Speaking of the Halflings, They were the true discoverer of life manipulation. Oposed to the physiology of the dolpnins, the Rhulisti were mutch more adapted for such discovery and manipulative capabilities.
The Rhulisti were of course no wizards nor were they sorcerers. They were some sort of biological physicians in a fantastic world setting. Thus they could create anything they wanted but opposed to magic, life-shaping took time and energy. I see Life-shaping as Bonsai tree shaping but a hundred fold more complicated and time consuming.
Thousands of years later, the first sorcerer was born (Rajaat) and unlike the Dolphins who could manipulate the energy with out destroying it, magic was destructive. (Even preservers are destroying life energies while casting. They just dont sap all of it allowing the remaining source to regenerate. (same as when you bleed but not to death: the body will regenerate its '' life energy'').
Later, the SK were born/created witch is the closest being who could be considered a god on Athas since it could confer spell like energies to their Templars. But that ''divine'' source is not from Athas but rather from somewhere linked with the SK by a vortex.
Divine magic in the sense of a God provider as no place on Athas.