Northern Isle of Dawn

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Sep 27, 2006 15:51:08
Here is a map of the northern part of the Isle of Dawn. This has been in the pipeline for a while, but I wasn't happy and had to rework it a quite a bit. Anyway, any and all suggestions/comments will be welcome.

IMAGE(http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/549/iodnorthwv0.th.png)
#2

maddog

Sep 27, 2006 18:06:57
Here is a map of the northern part of the Isle of Dawn. This has been in the pipeline for a while, but I wasn't happy and had to rework it a quite a bit. Anyway, any and all suggestions/comments will be welcome.

Looks great! Are you going to do the southern part of the island too? What sources are you using? Are you creating from you own campaign? I don't remember ever seeing a map this detailed of the Isle of Dawn.

BTW, there's a village in SW Kendach, near the Fortress of Kendach, that needs a label.

--Ray.
#3

Hugin

Sep 27, 2006 22:41:02
Nice map! Do you plan on doing any detailed write-ups on any of the locations?
#4

zombiegleemax

Sep 28, 2006 2:13:07
Cheers, I put where I got the detail from on my blog, but forgot to do so over here. Most of the detail was taken from TM2 and a map done by Thibault Sarlat and Geoff Gander.

Yes, there is an unlabelled village south west of Kendach, this is because on TM2 there is a sea lane leading down that way that is not continued further down, so it made sense to me to place a village there. However, I'm not terribly imaginative when it comes to place names.

I may do write ups in the future, but I've got exams coming up, so where the actual mapping can be relaxing, coming up with new stuff can be difficult.

Also, the southern part is nearly ready, and hopefully be ready in a couple of weeks.
#5

Cthulhudrew

Sep 28, 2006 3:35:11
I put an inlet and a river down in Kendach, with the town/fortress of Kendach itself being on the river. The inlet (on my map) starts right above where you have the nameless village on the coast.

I put another village on that road leading from Westrourke to Kendach (about 9 hexes sw on your map, but 10 sw on my map).

I'm curious to know how you arrived at your measurements on that map (what sort of hex breakdown from 24 to 8), as for some reason I have the interior near Kendach about a hex or half a hex or so further inland than you do on your map. It's been a while since I last tinkered with my IoD maps, but I recall there were some difficulties with that region, going from the 24 mile version in DotE to match with the 8 mile version on the trail maps (they don't match up exactly, and I had to expand outward from an 8/24 mile version of the Known World to get them to synch up properly).
#6

zombiegleemax

Sep 28, 2006 13:57:46
I put an inlet and a river down in Kendach, with the town/fortress of Kendach itself being on the river. The inlet (on my map) starts right above where you have the nameless village on the coast.

Looking at the map again, that sounds quite reasonable, perhaps leading to a waterfall over the cliffs there (I always felt that symbol was too little used).

I put another village on that road leading from Westrourke to Kendach (about 9 hexes sw on your map, but 10 sw on my map).

Do you mean West Portage? And do you have this map available?

I'm curious to know how you arrived at your measurements on that map (what sort of hex breakdown from 24 to 8), as for some reason I have the interior near Kendach about a hex or half a hex or so further inland than you do on your map. It's been a while since I last tinkered with my IoD maps, but I recall there were some difficulties with that region, going from the 24 mile version in DotE to match with the 8 mile version on the trail maps (they don't match up exactly, and I had to expand outward from an 8/24 mile version of the Known World to get them to synch up properly).

This was the difficult bit, I used TM2 to fix the position of the Isle of Dawn (as this is the only usable map for this purpose, I'm not very keen on using anything larger than 24mph for positioning if I can help it). I then matched up the northern part of that map with the a 24mph map from derived from DotE. This also matched up with the southern end with minimal complications. The middle bit was more problematic, and although the inland areas are OK (I might not have put Kendach in the middle 8 mile hex of the 24 mile hex (I you catch my drift)), I seem to remember having to fudge the coastline a bit to get the two to fit properly (I should probably make notes as I'm going along doing this kind of thing, but I never seem to remember to).

One question though, I've used your maps for the area around Caerdwicca, but the Aegos seemed to be about 8 miles north of where it would be from the 24 mph DotE map (at least from my reckoning). Anyway, I still need to put this together (because of the way I do this, they are tiled, merged, and then labeled, rather laborius, and my PC has a tendency to throw a wobbly and "run out of memory". Useless thing. :censored
#7

happylarry

Sep 28, 2006 15:04:12
Just to say - lovely map.

Ahhh to have the time to fill in those lovely blank areas. I especially like the look of that plateau just East of Kendach...

Is there a definitive list anywhere of Isle of Dawn sources?
#8

Cthulhudrew

Sep 28, 2006 16:43:48
Do you mean West Portage? And do you have this map available?

Yeah- I sent a PM to you yesterday, but I know that I rarely check my own (didn't notice yours until recently, sorry). The maps I have are really big, so I'm not sure the best way to send it.

Your method of mapping the interior seems to more or less gel with mine. I've done that region a couple of times, actually, and got different results each time (which is irritating). Glad to see I'm not the only one that it's been a bit problematic for.

Most recently, I just went by using gigantic hex maps of the region, starting from the Known World and working my way east, using maps with big 24 mile hexes divided into smaller 8 mile hexes.

One question though, I've used your maps for the area around Caerdwicca, but the Aegos seemed to be about 8 miles north of where it would be from the 24 mph DotE map (at least from my reckoning).

Hm- I'll have to go back and check that. I did the Caerdwicca region years ago, before I started with my newer procedure (the large/small maps I mentioned above), and I know that when I went back with the new procedure, I had to make some changes due to problems I hadn't noticed originally (the plateau, notably, was a different shape on both). It may be that I screwed up on Aegos as a result.

When I get back to working on those maps, I will probably go with the rounded plateau look from the earlier maps as opposed to the straight line plateau look from later maps (such as the Savage Coast maps), which- while under the mapping system I used to use were a lot easier to draw, aren't as aesthetically pleasing to look at.
#9

Cthulhudrew

Sep 28, 2006 17:43:15
I'm trying to do an overlay map right now, using Thorf's 24 and 8 mile hex maps of the IoD, and though I can't get it quite exactly right (I'm using Photoshop- if I were doing it in Illustrator, I could probably get it), what I'm finding seems to jibe with my memories of mapping the region years ago, which is that whoever did the 8 mile hex map of the IoD in the Eastern Countries Trail Map somehow raised the coastline of the Provincia Septentriona in Seawolf Bay relative to where it falls on the 24 mile hex map. I'm not clear at the moment precisely how far off it is, but again, it seems to jibe with my own mapping of the region.
#10

zombiegleemax

Sep 28, 2006 17:45:41
Your method of mapping the interior seems to more or less gel with mine. I've done that region a couple of times, actually, and got different results each time (which is irritating). Glad to see I'm not the only one that it's been a bit problematic for.

Most recently, I just went by using gigantic hex maps of the region, starting from the Known World and working my way east, using maps with big 24 mile hexes divided into smaller 8 mile hexes.

I tried several methods of mapping the IoD in realtion to the Known World, until I bought a copy of TM2, and none of them worked to my satisfaction. I think it was down to inconsistencies in the overall orginal mapping, and differences between the scales. Probably Thorf knows more about this than I do though.

Hm- I'll have to go back and check that. I did the Caerdwicca region years ago, before I started with my newer procedure (the large/small maps I mentioned above), and I know that when I went back with the new procedure, I had to make some changes due to problems I hadn't noticed originally (the plateau, notably, was a different shape on both). It may be that I screwed up on Aegos as a result.

When I get back to working on those maps, I will probably go with the rounded plateau look from the earlier maps as opposed to the straight line plateau look from later maps (such as the Savage Coast maps), which- while under the mapping system I used to use were a lot easier to draw, aren't as aesthetically pleasing to look at.

I use a straight line method for 8 mile maps (and below) and curved for 24 and above. I find it tends to be easier to compare for detail/overview purposes. If something really detailed is needed, I do go down to a curved 1 mph version, but this is only on paper, and I don't have space (or time) to set up my scanner.
#11

zombiegleemax

Sep 28, 2006 17:51:43
Just to say - lovely map.

Ahhh to have the time to fill in those lovely blank areas. I especially like the look of that plateau just East of Kendach...

Is there a definitive list anywhere of Isle of Dawn sources?

I think the blank areas are there for a DM's imagination to come out.

As for IoD sources, those that I can remember now:

Dawn of the Emperors
M series modules
Almanacs various

That's about all I can think of now.
#12

zombiegleemax

Sep 28, 2006 17:57:43
I'm trying to do an overlay map right now, using Thorf's 24 and 8 mile hex maps of the IoD, and though I can't get it quite exactly right (I'm using Photoshop- if I were doing it in Illustrator, I could probably get it), what I'm finding seems to jibe with my memories of mapping the region years ago, which is that whoever did the 8 mile hex map of the IoD in the Eastern Countries Trail Map somehow raised the coastline of the Provincia Septentriona in Seawolf Bay relative to where it falls on the 24 mile hex map. I'm not clear at the moment precisely how far off it is, but again, it seems to jibe with my own mapping of the region.

I seem to remember that it is off. I went with the idea that TM2 was correct and fudged the overlay of the 24 mph from DotE. I think it was only out by about 1 hex though. Hmm.
#13

zombiegleemax

Sep 29, 2006 14:28:38
Made a couple of updates, (I'd moved the coniferous symbol too far south), and added a couple more settlements suggested by Cthulhudrew. Also, redrawn the coastline around Kendach, which was wrong. Changed it to a thumbnail as well (click on it to view the full image).
#14

Cthulhudrew

Sep 29, 2006 16:30:36
Interesting- I hadn't really paid much attention to that juncture of roads in Hillvale before, but it seems like a good spot for a trading post/settlement to have sprung up. It's not on the larger maps- which doesn't necessarily mean anything, frankly, since its all regions that hadn't been mapped out/developed- so it might not be a large town itself, possibly just a village (maybe a fort?). We could call it Peregrine Junction.

Also, it occurs to me that it is mentioned in one of the sources (I think either DotE or M5) that there is a fortress on one of the plateaus near to Kendach. I don't recall exactly, but I think it is mentioned that it is on top of the smaller one. It always seemed an odd location to me to place troops, frankly (it is just as difficult to get down from a plateau as up, and depending on the height, well). The only benefit, I suppose, would be if someone invaded Kendach, they'd have troops that could sneak in and attack the invaders from there, but again- if someone knew about them, it would be easy to cut them off from supplies and to keep them from coming down. (That's why I put a fortress between the plateaus instead).

One of those plateaus (again, I think it is the smaller of the two) is supposed to be a part of the domain of Kendach.

DotE mentions that the Countess embarked on a plan of military expansion and fortress building that alarms her neighbors since she took over 10 years ago, so there should be a lot of fortresses there.

(Also I just found the reference to the plateau- DotE mentions that the Kendach Escarpment to the southeast of town is claimed by the countess. The implication seems to be that it is the large mesa on the Hillvale side, but that is obviously claimed by Alphatia. I suppose that the notion that she claims it would certainly play into the Alphatian/Thyatian conflicts of the region, and she is building her fortress and observation tower there in violation of the A/T neutrality. What that implies to me is that there are people living atop it, and she plans on taking it over, hence the fortress- which would actually be useful in that case. Also, it probably has another name- an Alphatian one, since the Kendach Escarpment would not be a term that was in long usage, and would be disputed in any case.)

I was planning on having those southern grasslands be inhabited by nomadic folk, though I hadn't decided who. I think I was originally going to have them be Alasiyan people (Gaz2 says that the Alasiyans were a subject race of the Nithians from the Isle of Dawn).

I think that Kendach' borders should be larger, as well. PWA lists it with a square mileage of 12,970, which is roughly equivalent to 230 8 mile hexes I believe (at c.56 sq mi per 8 mile hex). There are different statistics for the regions in an issue of Dragon magazine- errata for PWA1010, which might even have it larger (I don't have the issue handy at the moment), but those errata were ignored for some reason in the later PWAs, so I don't know how useful they are anyway (kind of makes one wonder why bother with errata...)

Had I ever gotten back to it (maybe someday), I was also planning on making some more "lesser domains"- baronies and the like- within the larger regions. Again, I think it was probably more due to little actual development being done on the IoD than any specific design decision to not have them, but it seemed strange to me (particularly on the Thyatian side) that the Empire would have these large holdings (such as a Grand Duchy), with no interior divisions, despite having such on the mainland. The Grand Duchy of Karameikos has several baronies (in Thyatian fashion), the mainland of Thyatis has baronies, duchies, counties- but the Grand Duchy of Westrourke has none? (Especially odd, IMO, given its age- over 500 years since it was founded. DotE even mentions that it is broken up into smaller dominions- "mostly baronies". Since it just attained Grand Duchy status recently- c. 970- I'd imagine Firestorm was a Duke before getting his new title, and the next highest noble would be at best a Marquis. Maybe the Nordmanvik Marches are the location of the Marquis' lands?

The provinces are a different matter- they are specifically listed as just "provinces" and are often described as not dominions. I wonder if that might have been a metagaming decision- that would allow PCs to create their own dominions in those lands. In any case, I've always sort of figured that they were just administered directly by the throne in those cases, via provincial magistrates (who are in charge primarily of taxation, the major interest in the regions, as well as to a lesser extent commanding forces in times of need. Mostly, though, individual fortresses have their own legislates from the throne, and would come into conflict with the magistrates at times when their interests differed.
#15

zombiegleemax

Sep 30, 2006 4:00:17
Interesting- I hadn't really paid much attention to that juncture of roads in Hillvale before, but it seems like a good spot for a trading post/settlement to have sprung up. It's not on the larger maps- which doesn't necessarily mean anything, frankly, since its all regions that hadn't been mapped out/developed- so it might not be a large town itself, possibly just a village (maybe a fort?). We could call it Peregrine Junction.

I was thinking something similar

Also, it occurs to me that it is mentioned in one of the sources (I think either DotE or M5) that there is a fortress on one of the plateaus near to Kendach. I don't recall exactly, but I think it is mentioned that it is on top of the smaller one. It always seemed an odd location to me to place troops, frankly (it is just as difficult to get down from a plateau as up, and depending on the height, well). The only benefit, I suppose, would be if someone invaded Kendach, they'd have troops that could sneak in and attack the invaders from there, but again- if someone knew about them, it would be easy to cut them off from supplies and to keep them from coming down. (That's why I put a fortress between the plateaus instead).

One of those plateaus (again, I think it is the smaller of the two) is supposed to be a part of the domain of Kendach.

DotE mentions that the Countess embarked on a plan of military expansion and fortress building that alarms her neighbors since she took over 10 years ago, so there should be a lot of fortresses there.

(Also I just found the reference to the plateau- DotE mentions that the Kendach Escarpment to the southeast of town is claimed by the countess. The implication seems to be that it is the large mesa on the Hillvale side, but that is obviously claimed by Alphatia. I suppose that the notion that she claims it would certainly play into the Alphatian/Thyatian conflicts of the region, and she is building her fortress and observation tower there in violation of the A/T neutrality. What that implies to me is that there are people living atop it, and she plans on taking it over, hence the fortress- which would actually be useful in that case. Also, it probably has another name- an Alphatian one, since the Kendach Escarpment would not be a term that was in long usage, and would be disputed in any case.)

Perhaps Countess Kendasius is a Cleric of Vanya instead of Halav, and has been encouraged to build forts etc, (and claim the larger plateau) by that Immortal, meddling as per WotI.

I was planning on having those southern grasslands be inhabited by nomadic folk, though I hadn't decided who. I think I was originally going to have them be Alasiyan people (Gaz2 says that the Alasiyans were a subject race of the Nithians from the Isle of Dawn).

Haven't looked at GAZ2 for a while. Will do some time this week.

I think that Kendach' borders should be larger, as well. PWA lists it with a square mileage of 12,970, which is roughly equivalent to 230 8 mile hexes I believe (at c.56 sq mi per 8 mile hex). There are different statistics for the regions in an issue of Dragon magazine- errata for PWA1010, which might even have it larger (I don't have the issue handy at the moment), but those errata were ignored for some reason in the later PWAs, so I don't know how useful they are anyway (kind of makes one wonder why bother with errata...)

PWAI - 12,790 sq mi, pop. 35,000
PWAIII - 12,790 sq mi, pop. 35,000

I'll have to look at this in the week. I based the borders on those from the PWA maps, but it wouldn't surprise me if these were not consistent.

Had I ever gotten back to it (maybe someday), I was also planning on making some more "lesser domains"- baronies and the like- within the larger regions. Again, I think it was probably more due to little actual development being done on the IoD than any specific design decision to not have them, but it seemed strange to me (particularly on the Thyatian side) that the Empire would have these large holdings (such as a Grand Duchy), with no interior divisions, despite having such on the mainland. The Grand Duchy of Karameikos has several baronies (in Thyatian fashion), the mainland of Thyatis has baronies, duchies, counties- but the Grand Duchy of Westrourke has none? (Especially odd, IMO, given its age- over 500 years since it was founded. DotE even mentions that it is broken up into smaller dominions- "mostly baronies". Since it just attained Grand Duchy status recently- c. 970- I'd imagine Firestorm was a Duke before getting his new title, and the next highest noble would be at best a Marquis. Maybe the Nordmanvik Marches are the location of the Marquis' lands?

This would be logical, but also remember that Karameikos is an independent country, and Westrourke is a dominion of the Empire. I would think that Firestorm reports to the Empire, and those sub divisions of Westrourke would report to him, and may not be considered to be "true" dominionis by the Empire, more as administrative divisions.

The provinces are a different matter- they are specifically listed as just "provinces" and are often described as not dominions. I wonder if that might have been a metagaming decision- that would allow PCs to create their own dominions in those lands. In any case, I've always sort of figured that they were just administered directly by the throne in those cases, via provincial magistrates (who are in charge primarily of taxation, the major interest in the regions, as well as to a lesser extent commanding forces in times of need. Mostly, though, individual fortresses have their own legislates from the throne, and would come into conflict with the magistrates at times when their interests differed.

Sounds about right I think.
#16

Cthulhudrew

Sep 30, 2006 5:39:40
Perhaps Countess Kendasius is a Cleric of Vanya instead of Halav, and has been encouraged to build forts etc, (and claim the larger plateau) by that Immortal, meddling as per WotI.

Halav is a god of war as well, as I recall, so fortress building isn't all that out of character.

I'll have to look at this in the week. I based the borders on those from the PWA maps, but it wouldn't surprise me if these were not consistent.

Yeah, the PWA maps IIRC are somewhat off- that was the rationale given for the Errata that Bruce posted in the Known World grimoire. I don't think they ever quite got it right.

This would be logical, but also remember that Karameikos is an independent country, and Westrourke is a dominion of the Empire.

True, but it was founded by a Thyatian (Thyatians, really), and I suspect that they kept their basic feudal structure intact.

I would think that Firestorm reports to the Empire, and those sub divisions of Westrourke would report to him, and may not be considered to be "true" dominionis by the Empire, more as administrative divisions.

It depends, I suppose. In a feudal structure (as seems to be the status of the Thyatian Empire) those minor Baronies and such would owe fealty to the Emperor, but they would technically still owe vassalage to the Archduke as well.

(Nuts- I had this whole long post about the Companion rules, Gaz1 and DotE, which I thought might prompt some discussion about peerage in the various nations of the Known World, and it all became irrelevant when I actually sat down and read DotE, so I just went ahead and deleted it all. )

According to DotE, Archduke Donegal Firestorm (any duke, really) can appoint Baronial titles if they like. They are also semi-autonomous, so yeah- I'd say the barons would have to report directly to the Archduke. It also doesn't say anything about Counts, so I'd imagine any counties would have to be appointed by the Emperor, but such an occurrence would be (I'd think) rare, as it would probably not necessarily please the duke who rules over the region the county would be in.

In any case, any lesser dominions, while owing vassalage to the Duke would certainly (without question, IMO) still have to owe fealty to the Emperor, and could be directly commanded by that ruler if necessary (creating an interesting conflict of loyalties if, say, a certain Archduke should try to assert his independence completely).

The baronies wouldn't necessarily be large ones, but given the mention of them in DotE, and, well, personal preference, I'd say there should be at least a couple of them in the Grand Duchy of Westrourke.

(For that matter, I'd imagine that there are baronies within the mainland Duchies as well, despite not being marked on any of the 8 mi/hex maps. Seems rather strange to me the way they chose to divide that place up, actually, now that I look at it.
#17

zombiegleemax

Sep 30, 2006 15:07:58
Right, found the corrected land areas from the Bruce Heard's Errata:


Nation Area<br /> East-Portage 79,690 sq. miles<br /> Ekto 38,160 sq. miles<br /> Furmenglaive 9,875 sq. miles<br /> Helskir 8,980 sq. miles<br /> Kendach 6,285 sq. miles<br /> Southern Province 92,035 sq. miles<br /> Trikelios 17,960 sq. miles
#18

Cthulhudrew

Sep 30, 2006 18:25:38
This roughly matches up with the map above (and hence saves me hours of agonising where to move the southern borders to).

There you go. I knew I remembered those figures as being vastly different from the published ones. Where was that, btw? I want to say issue #187, but I'm not sure.

As for her being a Cleric of Halav or Vanya, I felt that as Vanya had been actively encouraging Thyatian military build up, due to her being in the Fellowship of the Star, wheras Halav was not mentioned in either camp. That would just be a minor detail that I would probably change IMC if it were ever relevant.

Good point, and it would certainly fit in better with WotI. It would show an incredible amount of foresight on Vanya's behalf though- the Fellowship of the Star wasn't formed until 1000 AC, I believe. (Although she is a Time Immortal, so...)

As for Baronies within the Grand Duchy of Westrourke, I would probably go with nothing larger than one (24 mile) hex.

I might be inclined to make them a little bigger, depending, but around that size probably. It would be very simple to do a "Glantri" and just have the baronies centered around a couple of the fortresses in Westrourke.

Reading through the rest of the (rather limited) information on Kendach, I'm now confused as to whether it should be labelled as a Province or a County. Or should the title of "Count" just go with the military governorship of a Province (as per Stefania and Anaxibius in Redstone).

Is there something specific you're referring to that would make you question it? I don't see anything offhand that would indicate that it shouldn't be labelled anything but a county.
#19

zendrolion

Oct 01, 2006 5:51:07
Interesting map Mah9; very good work!
The IoD definitely needs a greater degree of detail.

Regarding area measurements, I advise you to beware of the numbers given in any of the canon sources. Some time ago I checked those numbers re-making some calculations on the real maps and I found them largely WRONG.
So perhaps it'd be better to re-calculate the surface areas of IoD countries on the maps themselves if you want an accurate idea of how large are those regions. ;)

Another thing that I've always disliked is the fact that the IoD is depopulated according to canon sources. I think the population numbers here have been largely understimated. Becouse of this, I'd add a lot more settlements (villages and also small towns) in areas that have been settled for centuries (think about Dunadale, Hillvale, Westrourke, Redstone - the whole northern isle indeed) by either the Thyatians or the Alphatians.

The population figures for West and East Portage given in canon sources also seem very strange: 2,000 and 1,000 inhabitants IIRC, for the settlements that should be tha mayor trade centers of the IoD!?!?
Not counting the fact that West Portage should also be one of the naval bases of the powerful and numerous Thyatian fleet...
Probably the towns should have at least 10,000 inhabitants. Could be that the canon sources account only for their inhabitants of Thyatian or Alphatian descent?

Regarding the issue of baronies withing the Grand Duchy of Westrourke, I think there should be many of them. This domain exists as Duchy from AC500 on, and have been upgraded to Grand Duchy in AC970; perhaps in the last thirty years some barons of Westrourke could also have been upgraded to counts.
This point calls in the issue of Thyatian dominions and provinces. I've always thought the administrative/feudal partition of the Empire as follows:

- All the land belongs to the Empire (not to the Emperor) and to the its people (= citizens only).
- Some of the land belonging to the Empire is partitioned between feudal overlords that receive land grants from the Throne or the Senate themselves. These feudal lords (barons, counts, lord knights and dukes) don't own all the land included in the land grants given them by the Throne/Senate (in the mainland especially); part of even most of it belongs to lesser aristocracy (lords), a smaller part to free citizens and some other to some cities and towns.
- Land that hasn't been given to a feudal overlord is administered directly by the Empire, and is called a "province". A governor-general is appointed to rule it by the Senate itself. It could happen that a province includes some feudal domains (see Meridiona, with Furmenglaive and Caerdwicca; or the Hinterlands, with Fiorenza in PWAII): when this happens probably these feudal lords have to answer to the governor-general and so aren't as free as their "imperial" colleagues. For this reason, in the official documents I think mayor feudal lords (like Duke of Kerendas, Baron of Biazzan, etc.) should be addressed "Imperial [Baron, Count or Duke]", while the minor lordlings (like Baron of Caerdwicca or Count of Furmenglaive) sould be answered with their title only (i.e. "Baron or Count etc."). Moreover, probably the provinces should't have as many citizen as other territories of the Empire.
- While dukes have the right to appoint barons, probably this right isn't applicable in the mainland (the risk for the Throne/Senate would be an excessive division of the local authority).
- Grand Duchies are like "dominions" in the British Empire: indipendent territories part of the "Thyatian Commonwealth"; they have their own rules, laws and government. They send senators and tributes to the Empire, and must obey the general laws of the Empire, but in regard to other issues (like administration, feudal division, etc.), they do as they pleases. This is probably the reason why the administrative division of Ochalea, the Pearl Islands and Westrourke hasn't been detailed. I think Westrourke should follow a feudal pattern, with a Norwold flavour (as is said in M5), while Ochalea and the Pearl Islands (being very old dominions) should follow their own traditions (i.e. mandarins and the like for Ochalea), with only a slight thyatian flavour.

My two cents on Thyatian government, anyway. ;)

All this means that while Redstone can be labeled a "province", it could be that it includes also a County of Redstone (much smaller than the province of the same name), owned by a Count. It could sometimes happen that the Count of Redstone be named also Governor-General of the Redstone Province, which shouldn't be hereditary.
This way one can explain also some very strange decisions taken by Thincol at the end of AC1009 according to PWAI: West Portage becomes a Barony, Redstone a County - alienating from the direct control of the Empire (and in a very critical situation) two of the most important provinces of the IoD. IMO Stefania Torion and Periandra Docerius have been named indeed Countess of Redstone and Baroness of West Portage, but these County and Barony are much much smaller than the province they administer as General-Governors.
#20

zombiegleemax

Oct 03, 2006 14:11:40
Cheers, I put where I got the detail from on my blog, but forgot to do so over here. Most of the detail was taken from TM2 and a map done by Thibault Sarlat and Geoff Gander.

I thought I would mention that Thib and I did work out some background for the new settlements we added in the north. For now, I will say that the Annisvall, Rogstad, and the lands in between were intended to be settled by refugees from the initial invasion of the Heldannic Freeholds c. AC 950. These would be old-stock Heldanners who fish and engage in some woodcutting, but otherwise keep pretty much to themselves.

Geoff
#21

zombiegleemax

Oct 03, 2006 17:01:50
Zendrolion: I think there is one other issue in East/West portage, which is often skimmed over. SLAVERY. Moving ships (or cargo) over an isthmus is not going to be a career opportunity for free men. Both empires have slavery. Perhaps they just don't count slaves as being people. Given that the whole purpose of the two towns (at least this is how I read DotE) is to get cargo (and ships) from one side of the Isle of Dawn to another this seems to me to be a more valid reason for the low population levels.

The rest of your points I agree with, it just depends how I would fit them into my campaign.

Seer of Yhog (and Thibalut): Any chance of a write up(?), or maybe some darker secrets (or maybe I'm reading between the lines too much)
#22

zombiegleemax

Oct 05, 2006 8:20:07
Seer of Yhog (and Thibalut): Any chance of a write up(?), or maybe some darker secrets (or maybe I'm reading between the lines too much)

Darker secrets, eh? Hmm....we'll see what I can dig up.

In the meantime, I can provide this:

Dawnhaven, Sjofjord, and Lodgaard were locations in the Mystaran Almanac; they had been occupied briefly by the Heldannic Order during their brief tenure in Helskir (AC 1016-17). The villages had already been well-established by then, however.

The local population would be predominantly native Heldanner, most of whom having migrated there over the preceding centuries. Remember that the Heldann Freeholds (as opposed to the Heldannic Territories) were a patchwork of independent clans - probably very similar in feel to the Soderfjord Jarldoms. It would not have been unnatural for various clans to leave the region over time - either to escape annihilation, or to seek out new lands to settle. The Thyatians likely had no problems with these settlers, as they would clear land and make it productive, and render taxes to the imperial coffers (for the most part, anyway).

Dawnhaven has a small, but natural, deep-water port, and enough commerce passes through here during the summer months that the empire sends a customs officer to collect taxes during that time - but "deals" are always made. Around 250 people, mostly fishermen, live here. Some people have begun to explore the hills to the north, and a few have found traces of tin.

Sjofjord controls a bridge that spans a narrow, but deep and fast-flowing, river (the locals call it a fjord, but it's really more a stream; although it posed enough of an obstacle that a previous emperor ordered a bridge to be built). The stream teems with salmon (who spawn nearby) - this is what attracted the settlers in the first place. Sjofjord is known locally for the quality of its smoked salmon, and boasts the largest population of the three villages, at around 900.

Lodgaard was founded around AC 900 in a region where the soils were particularly good. It later became a convenient rest-stop for traffic between Helskir and Dawnhaven, and now boasts a couple (literally) of decent inns. Being the only decent place to stop in the far north outside of Helskir has given Lodgaard a certain level of smugness that one would not expect in a village of roughly 500. Some would argue that the village's unofficial motto is, "Well, where else are you going to stay, then?"

Redman's Cove is a village of roughly 700 situated in a natural harbour, and was settled around AC 900 as a secluded location where deals could be made between commercial interests of both empires - even during periods of war, trade still went on, after all. No one knows whether there ever was a "Redman" in the first place, but the locals are happy to tell tales of bloody bandits and other riff-raff (for a drink) in order to explain the village's name. Its location was kept secret for a few decades until local pirates learned of it, and began to use it as a safe harbour - Black Bay having been taken over by Salty Borogald and his ruthless crew. Now, Redman's Cove is unofficially known as an open port - almost anything can be bought here, for the right price, and if it is not available, there is always someone there who can get it for you, given enough time and money. The authorities know full well what goes on here, but thus far no one has stepped in - both empires (and several other nations, besides) likely do business here, anyway.

More to come!

Geoff

PS - Shawn, feel free to post this to the Vaults.
#23

zombiegleemax

Oct 05, 2006 14:14:01
I have modified population figures for the entire Isle of Dawn at home, based on Bruce's Domain Population article from way back when. I'll see if I can dig them up...
#24

zombiegleemax

Oct 06, 2006 0:46:09
Here are the areas and population figures I came up with; I don't recall the process totally, but if I remember right, I based them on using the 24-mile hexes with Bruce's domain population system in Dragon, calculating each 24-mile hex as having nine 8-mile hexes of the same type of terrain. The population figures are total, with 1/6 of that available as urban, non-agricultural population, but that figure being rather low, as compared to the continent, as the bulk of the surplus is being sent in tribute to the hungry capital cities. Helskir and other neutral/uninhabited territories are not included herein.

Alphatian Isle of Dawn: 365,684 square miles, population 1,038,345.
Dunadale 168,605 square miles, population 304,335
East Portage 71,832 square miles, population 112,740
Ekto 18,996 square miles, population 106,695
Thothia 95,277 square miles, population 360,225
Trikelios 10,974 square miles, population 154,350

Thyatian Isle of Dawn: 312,785 square miles, population 1,186,515
Amanceria Septentriona 23,688 square miles, population 214,110
Amanceria Meridiona 39,816 square miles, population 139,230
Caerdhame 14,616 square miles, population 56,250
Furmenglaive 21,672 square miles, population 70,830
Ispaña 17,640 square miles, population 36,315
Kendach 15,624 square miles, population 60,030
Laticea 14,616 square miles, population 63,270
Redstone 57,864 square miles, population 229,950
West Portage 9,977 square miles, population 100,440
Westrourke 97,272 square miles, population 216,090
#25

zombiegleemax

Oct 06, 2006 8:40:44
More information....

Black Bay, a once-bustling port, was founded circa AC 500 as a way station for trading vessels on the Deirdren-Dunadale-Helskir route. Very quickly, it also became known as a good point for people (including slaves) to jump ship, and lose themselves if they so wished. Many of these people stayed in the village, which eventually grew into a prosperous town of 6,000. Being slightly off the beaten path, Black Bay became a "free city" of sorts, where no one asked about a person's origins, and almost anything could be bought or sold. By AC 750, Black Bay had become very wealthy, and dangerous, for its size, as competing mercantile interests strove to make the best deals and cut down their opponents. At the same time, gambling and other vices (including trade in zzonga) had taken root.

Such prosperity did not go unnoticed, and the town council worked out a deal with the authorities in Dunadale, remitting a large sum of money every quarter, in exchange for being left alone. The good times did not last: By AC 940, Black Bay was controlled by three merchant families, who had grown so powerful that they sought to collude amongst themselves to drive up prices across the board. Lesser commercial interests soon sought greener pastures (and found them in Redman's Cove), and the "manageable chaos" that was life in Black Bay became even more dangerous, as the locals grew restive. Things came to a head in AC 978, when Salty Borogald, a young pirate who had been plaguing the Seas of Dawn for several years, descended on Black Bay, rallying the locals to support him in his bid to seize power from the oligarchs. After a brief battle, the merchant houses of Black Bay had been crushed, and Salty Borogald declared himself a lord.

In the years since then, "Lord" Borogald's rule has proven to be even worse than his predecessors'. Crime is rampant, while Borogald and his cronies milk the remaining commercial interests for all they are worth. Hundreds of people have left for a better life, and now Black Bay is a shadow of its former self, with just over 1,000 inhabitants. Despite the troubles, Borogald still manages to pay off the authorities in Dunadale, but for how much longer is uncertain.

Geoff
#26

zombiegleemax

Oct 06, 2006 15:41:56
Mystaros: Yet more area calculations that don't agree (I'm assuming what you've called Caerdhame above is the region around Caerdwicca).

Mishler PWA Heard<br /> Dunadale 168,605 168,605 168,605<br /> East Portage 71,832 71,832 79,690<br /> Ekto 18,996 18,996 38,160<br /> Thothia 95,277 95,277 95,277<br /> Trikelios 10,974 10,974 17,960<br /> <br /> Alphatian IoD 365,684 365,684 399,692<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Amanceria Septentriona 23,688 <br /> Amanceria Meridiona 39,816 <br /> Ispaña 17,640 <br /> Laticea 14,616 <br /> Septentronia 95,760 95,775 92,035<br /> Caerdhame 14,616 17,459 17,459<br /> Furmenglaive 21,672 38,410 9,875<br /> Kendach 15,624 12,970 6,285<br /> Redstone 57,864 57,864 57,864<br /> West Portage 9,977 9,977 9,977<br /> Westrourke 97,272 97,272 97,272<br /> <br /> Thyatian IoD 312,785 329,727 290,767<br /> <br /> Alphatian + Thyatian 678,469 695,411 690,459<br /> <br /> <br /> Helskir 28,932 8,980<br /> <br /> Alph + Thy + Hels 724,343 699,439
#27

zombiegleemax

Oct 12, 2006 10:19:56
Here's some more information - let me know if any of you find this useful and/or interesting....

Annisvall is a fishing village of just under 300 people, situated at the mouth of the Krossá River. It was founded in AC 951 by refugees from the town of Haldisvall (now Freiburg), which had been overrun by the Heldannic Knights. The locals tend to keep to themselves for the most part, but some venture as far as Dawnhaven in the north and Nordvik in the south.

Rogstad was founded in AC 957 by refugees from the Heldann Freeholds, who had fled persecution by the Heldannic Order, and who subsequently migrated inland from Annisvall in search of new lands. The village of 550 is currently undergoing a period of slight growth with the recent establishment of a fixed trail to the village Messambria in the interior. A handful of Thyatian settlers have moved into the village and the surrounding lands as a result, some of them possessing skills (such as leatherworking and ranching) that were in very short supply beforehand. A small amount of trade – mainly in ropes and salted fish – exists with the village of Annisvall.

Other villages exist along coast, and north of Rogstad, but many of these are so small, and so remote, that they have yet to be counted in the offical census. Nevertheless, Thyatian officials estimate that between 3,000 to 6,000 people, mostly independent homesteaders, could be living in this region.

DM Note: Those remote settlements could be sites where "interesting" things happen. As time permits, I'll share some thoughts....

Geoff