|#1theocratissakOct 03, 2006 18:45:14||One of the PC's is a cleric of Heironeous. He is level 2, and died. Being that I wanted to do something "different" I decided that I didn't want the town watch to save the party (they were still 1 rnd away), and the cultists of Graz'zt were going to take them and use them as a sacrifice. Being that they've had dealings with the cult of Orcus, and of course Graz'zt and Orcus are at war, I felt that I'd have a 3rd evil force come in and "rescue" the PC's. Most of the PC's are CN/CG, with the cleric being NG (iirc). |
With only the cleric being dead (rest were negative), I started this weekends game with the PC's in a room with an evil patron and his evil cleric telling the PC's that they were rescued because the Church of Pelor thinks that the PC's are favored, and that anything to cause the cult of Graz'zt problems is good for this patron (even if he is evil). The cult of Graz'zt is being led by a Dread Lich Titan, and this patron is the titan's personal enemy. The PC's - no matter their alignment - have been told that they must think of their city (and it's people) as the main thing. They love their city, would do anything for it. And the "evil patron" said that he likes that about them, as he believes the titan and the Graz'zt cultists are trying to destroy the city.
So he made the cleric of Heironeous a mummy from Liber Mortis. Mummy's are supposed to be Lawful. He's NG. hmm. Plus the patron is evil. I've not made the patron be of anything in particular yet. But what I'd like to do is to start seeding the cleric with an extra domain, from this evil patron. Start to tear apart the threads of his "goodness" by using the mummy aspect. But I can't seem to find a decent "evil" GH god that would work well with Heironeous. Wee Jas is the only one that I can really see, esp. since she can have LG Paladins, and is of magic, death and such. But I was hoping I'd get some feedback from you guys on what should be the next step in corrupting the PC's. Again, it's not a matter of good or evil for the PC's, because I've told them that their main concern should be for the welfare of the city.
Thanks for any thoughts and input.
|#2zombiegleemaxOct 05, 2006 2:14:43||I am a little confussed. . .|
Is your goal to "balance" the character, or to tempt him away from good?
|#3ElendurOct 05, 2006 10:29:56||Hextor, half brother and nemisis of Heironeous, is Lawful Evil. But if by 'works well' you mean what evil god would Heironeous team up with to accomplish some goal, I don't think there is any. You could have the PC mummified by a cleric of Pholtus or St. Cuthbert, both potentially LN. But you seem to be converting him without his consent, which seems dicey.|
|#4theocratissakOct 05, 2006 17:50:24||Hi all - |
The Cleric of Heironeous lvl 2 and Mummy lvl 1 is NG. An Evil Patron (this is where I need the help) mummified and brought the PC to life (he had the choice to be dead and start anew or to return as a mummy, and with that being more interesting, the player choose that).
What I'm wondering is which "evil" god would be willing to "tempt" a cleric of heironeous, while respecting that it would be a long process. One that wouldn't cause the church of pelor (which is his current boss, only because the church of heironeous is acting as the strong arm of the pelorian church) and the church of heironeous to notice. One that would permit the PC to stay NG (or if need be, LN, as is something that the player and I discussed, which he'd be open to having modified - it's our 3rd game, and he's still feeling out the game from his 2nd Ed roots).
The alignment aspect is secondary to the requirements, it's that the city of Dyvers be the ultimate authority - if it would be harmful to the populace, the ideal, or the image of the city, it would be "evil." I'm trying to get away from good and evil in the sense of it, and replace "good" with the city's overall image as the chief responsiblity. If an "evil" act would indeed help the city in some way, it is something that is possible to be done without affecting the party's overall alignment.
I think Hextor might be too overt with his power towards a cleric of his brothers. He doesn't seem to be the type to be willing to wait it out, and he seems to be far too "conquering" and wouldn't concern himself with the citizens of Dyvers to get his own agenda across. This is why I wondered about Wee Jas, with the 3.x version and new alignment, a Paladin can choose her. With the aspect of Lawful as an option, I wonder if she might be willing to consider the city's needs while using the cleric (even if it isn't her, but her church that is acting out). From Races of Destiny, Urbana seemed like he could be an excellent choice, especially as a new enterent into the Greyhawk Pantheon, he needs a new cleric to lead his church. But how does converting him to a Mummy really help this cause?
It is this that keeps me up at night, and requires help from the helpful people of the boards.
|#5zombiegleemaxOct 06, 2006 1:42:59||Aside from St. Cuthbert, Hextor, or a lesser deity called Fortubo, (LN, protection and duty, but also stones, rock, and mountains), the one that really jumps out is a deity named Zilchus. |
Zilchus is another LN lesser deity, all about money, business, guilds, and influence, so they could seek to undermine the other religions in the area, while creating a steadfast champion who will not only serve to safeguard the town, but also begin to establish an thriving economy in it. The upside to this deity is that no one would likely see it comming, nor would churches such as Pelors want to fight against it. Even if they are killing Pelors worship in the town and converting many to their own, to Pelor, they are serving the people first, and so Pelor would be caught in between the hard place and the harder place.
Zilchus is a male, Favored Weapon Dagger, with the Knowledge, Law, and Trickery Domains, who favores business and economy, especially "shady" business.
|#6ElendurOct 06, 2006 10:58:32||Good call on Zilchus, Beckett. He seems especially appropriate for Dyvers.|
Again, it depends on if you are trying to corrupt the cleric to evil, or just put him in an "end justifies the means" moral quandry.
As for why make a mummy, maybe this patron only had a oneshot scroll or something. He used it on the PC, who had no other options anyway. Once the mummy PC is shown to be effective, the patron might suggest he animate some undead to bolster the cities defences. Skeletons and Zombies are neutral right, so what harm could come from that?
So now you have the internal conflict of a NG cleric casting spells with the evil descriptor, weighed against the external threats against the city. Plus the conflict between the churches of Zilchus and Pelor, who won't be too happen about the undead. (I don't doubt many clerics of Pelor would make their knowledge religion check and want to blow the mummy away immediately. Same for some druids).
|#7theocratissakOct 06, 2006 15:13:47||Hi all - |
Awesome call on Zilchus, Beckett. That's how I'll work it. Zilchus is the patron of Dyvers, and with Pelor's growth (and as I have it currently, Heironeous working with/under the Pelor Church), Zilchus's church see's the need for an "inside man" per se. Also seeing as I've run it, Pelor's church is over-shadowing Z's and this might be a way to rebalance the city to its roots.
Just by being a mummy, the only "evil" aspect I've seen from Liber Mortis is that clerics who were able to turn undead now rebuke undead. So their spells shouldn't have the evil descriptor, but with the need for negative energy, I wouldn't say that he couldn't get / cast evil spells if needed. One aspect of being a mummy is that once you gain the class you have to take all 13 levels. Thus at 15th lvl, he'd be 2nd cleric / 13 mummy and his spells would suck. So I've allowed him to modify that by taking 2 lvls in mummy and 1 in cleric as he progresses.
However, I'll offer a spell or two extra (1 domain + 1 other spell) from his unknonwn (instead of evil) patron.
Thanks very much for the input.
Now I have to modify Bards Gate's product a little more, since their main god is of bards, and it was one of things that I was worried about when using it as my Dyvers setting.
|#8zombiegleemaxOct 08, 2006 7:50:04||Wait, what? Let me go check something, a 15 ECL Mummy, sounds, . . .odd.|
|#9zombiegleemaxOct 08, 2006 8:06:22||Okay, the Mummy in the MM has no L.A., so here is a good way to bypass that problem. |
1 Cleric Level
2 Cleric Level
3 L.A. +1 Becomes a Mummy (All Stats that get bumped are only +2, D.R. 1/-)
4 L.A. +1 (2) (+4 Str, -2 Int, D.R.2/-)
5 Cleric Level
6 Cleric Level
7 L.A. +1 (3) (+4 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Int, D.R.3/-)
8 Cleric Level
9 Cleric Level
10 L.A. +1 (4) (+2 Str, D.R.4/-)
11 Cleric Level
12 Cleric Level
13 L.A. +1 (5) (+2 Str, D.R.5/-)
14 Cleric Level
15 Cleric Level
16 Cleric Level
17 Cleric Level
18 Cleric Level
19 Cleric Level
20 Cleric Level
The Cleric Levels are just like Normal, but get Listen, Spot, Hide, and Move Silently as Class Skills, but only 3+ Int Skill Points, one of which must be spent on one of those skills. AT the L.A. Levels, he gets no Skill points, no H.D., no Spells, etc. . .but they do count for Feats, (to simplify it).
|#10theocratissakOct 08, 2006 13:30:49||Hi all -|
No, the Mummy from the the Liber Mortis - it's a character class. They break it down so that the Mummy doesn't get all the bonuses of being a Mummy all at once. This way a 1st level character can play a Vampire Spawn, Mummy, Mohrg, Ghoul and such. Mummy is the one that has the least benefits that seem to make the game unbalancing.
Ghostwalk did a few things like this as well - letting characters start out as undead.
|#11zombiegleemaxOct 09, 2006 7:39:54||I get that, but it is based of the assumption that it has like 8 racial H.D., which the player would not need. So instead, let him play his Cleric Levels as those H.D.|
|#12samwiseOct 09, 2006 15:40:20||I see what Beckett is getting at, and I agree with him.|
The mummy class is for 8 "racial" HD, and isn't really what you want. Instead, he is assigning the level adjustment as "transition" levels, like for half-dragon in Races of the Dragon.
The only change I'd suggest is that the it should be LA+4 as per the "Mummified Creature" template, also in Libris Mortis. You will also have to divvy up the special abilities.
|#13theocratissakOct 09, 2006 16:42:06||Hi all -|
No, per the Mummy Class - there is no need for the Level Adjustments. In fact, pg 32 lists the Level Adjustments for the different creatures. However, if using the classes outlined in the book, pg 34 Creating Undead and Entering Undead Classes state that the LA is not used. Their example that a 5th lvl dwarf fighter is slain and becomes a vampire spawn, becomes a 4th lvl fighter and a 1st lvl VS. On pg 35, How Monster Classes Work - "When using an undead monster class to create a character, you can ignore level adjustment. This is replaced by the character’s monster class level. (The level adjustment is, in effect, built into the monster class’s level progression.)."
As such, I'm not quite following Beckett's thoughts.
As the cleric is a 2nd lvl cleric (I started everybody out as 2nd lvl with 0 XP, so I didn't drop one of his lvl's and give him 1 lvl mummy - they'd just earned enough for 3rd level, so there wasn't any loss [except for the dying part]). and now a 1st lvl mummy, he has to progress the 13 lvl's of mummy before taking a level in cleric or any other class. This again makes me question and not understand Beckett's class/mummy progression.
Unless of course, you're stating that instead of using the Mummy class out of Liber Mortis, I allow him to continue with his Cleric progress and as he levels, give him benefits of being a mummy. I don't see how this is more or less beneficial to either the character or to me as the DM wanting to have something unusual yet keep the game balanced. I think that the Mummy class keeps things balanced and protected.
In making that the character cannot take or advance in his original class (cleric) once he's taken an undead class, it keeps the progression of the mummy in line. However, due to the cleric being our only healer in the party, keeping his spells at lvl 2 cleric can be very costly for the party as a whole. Of all the undead classes, I feel this one is the least unbalancing, however it is also the one which could allow the PC to continue to advance in spell casting (similar to what a PrC would allow). As the Mummy description states, some are cleric's of the gods in which they stand to protect. So the only thing I could see in Beckett's list is in allowing the cleric to gain levels as a cleric has being helpful to the party. But I think that takes away from the Mummy class as a whole.
The original aspect of this post was to wonder which god would be the most helpful in the Dyvers setting in converting the cleric to a mummy without upsetting the overall balance. We've come to realize that Zilchus seems to fit my needs quite reasonably, and with Zilchus as the patron of the city itself, and with my style of DMing, Zilchus will fit nicely.
Since the Mummy and all undead classes in effect, are more front-line combatant types, and as I've stated, the Cleric / Mummy now has a 2nd un-noticed patron, I would be willing to remove some of the Mummy based class features and allow the Mummy class to advance his cleric spell casting abilities. If this is part of the aspect that Beckett is trying to mention, then I might understand a bit more. But for the most part, I'd like to keep it that the PC stay Cleric 2 / Mummy progression. If I can't figure (with Beckett's and other's input) how to give the Mummy class +1 cleric spell casting (by removing other features), then I'd just allow the PC to level as Cleric 2 / Mummy 2 and at 5th level he'd have the option of taking a level of cleric. Now as I understand it, even if a cleric switches or add's another god, he still progresses the same. He'd not be a Cleric of Heironeous 2 and Mummy 2 and Cleric of Zilchus 1 would he? If this would be the case, that too might be interesting.
Damn, now I'm gonna get myself confused.
So - can the Mummy class be configured to offer cleric spell advancement by limiting some of it's other level benefits that don't seem to be related to its Mummy aspect (only thing I see right away is reducing the HD to 6 or 8 instead of the 12). If not, and I allow the character to advance in Cleric every 3rd level, does he advance as cleric or does he advance as cleric of X lvl 2, cleric of Y lvl 1?
Thanks for reading and the helpful insight.
|#14samwiseOct 09, 2006 17:40:26||OK, this will probably be a bit confusing . . .|
You want the PC to be a mummy.
You are looking at the mummy class to do this.
The problem, as you note, is that it doesn't offer any advancement in spellcasting ability.
Another problem, as Beckett notes, is that it is based on giving the PC 8 hit dice of "undead."
As a solution, rather than using the mummy class, you can instead give the PC 4 (5 in Beckett's example) "transition" levels instead, that cover the level adjustment difference between being a human and having the mummy (or mummified creature as I suggest) template added to him, along the lines of something like this:
As Beckett noted, he will gain ability modifiers and mummy special abilities for those levels, but no HD, skill points, BAB, or the like.
The PC will never be a cleric 2/mummy 13. Instead he will just wind up (at 15th level) being a cleric 11/mummified creature template 4, and if you want to delete some of those special abilities, just don't let him take all 4 template "levels."
Does that explain it better?
|#15zombiegleemaxOct 11, 2006 7:27:49||I wasn't looking at my book, just the MM, and I assumed since he said 13th level class, with 8 H.D. there wasa +5 L.A., and 2 Cleric Levels. (Or 8 H.D. + 5 L.A. +2 Clc = 15)|
|#16cragOct 11, 2006 17:35:27||Ofcourse he would be an outcast; Heironeous being opposed to the undead.|
I can see every faithful priest, paladin and devout warrior of Heironeous he comes across seeking to "give him peace" once his condition becomes known.
Since it would be an evil dishonourable act to harm faithful followers of Heironeous carrying out his will, it put your player in quite a tough spot.