Cistern fiend is supposedly a CR 12 creature, and it is quite dangerous. But when you know it's there, can prepare for it, etc., and your job is to get rid of it so that other people can have a drink, shouldn't adventurers be able to figure out how to kill it with less risk? Or is it an EL 12 encounter?
OK, so the party *knows* that there's a cistern fiend in the cistern. And it is an actual cistern -- about ten thousand gallons of water, gathered during the rainy season. So the thing can't really go anywhere.
Cistern fiend is supposedly a CR 12 creature, and it is quite dangerous. But when you know it's there, can prepare for it, etc., and your job is to get rid of it so that other people can have a drink, shouldn't adventurers be able to figure out how to kill it with less risk? Or is it an EL 12 encounter?
You could shave a couple points off the EL, probably, as that measures the encounter as a whole. But you should keep it as CR 12 - the characters should receive full awards for smart preparation.
(I seem to remember reading that dragons under 3.0 had their CRs artificially lowered because it was assumed that characters would always prep themselves to the max when facing one. This was fixed for 3.5, iirc. EL and CR are related but need not be tightly indexed to one another, imho).
A Cistern Fiend on the other hand has a microscopic movement rate when not over water, and in this case, the party specifically knows where it is. You could send summoned monsters and telepathic constructs after it, then when it pops its head out to see where these things are coming from, you shoot arrows at it, then, when it finally comes after you, you use some wall of something or another to wall it off from its water source, then you run and let it shrivel and die in a few minutes. Don't get me wrong; it's a terrifying creature when you go to get a drink and it pops out and surprises you, but if you know where it is, and the thing has zero mobility, seems like that's going to chip away at the encounter level.
You could shave a couple points off the EL, probably, as that measures the encounter as a whole. But you should keep it as CR 12 - the characters should receive full awards for smart preparation.
Ah, so EL is just a guage to see what level is appropriate for the party to encounter?
Well, a dragon can take you by surprise. Even catch you in a very difficult situation, so I'm not sure why they'd presume preparation. A dragon's got very good mobility, and you *don't* always know you're going to encounter a dragon.
Yah, totally.
Ah, so EL is just a guage to see what level is appropriate for the party to encounter?
That's how I see it. I also thought I read something in the DMG about altering the EL depending on the circumstances (like a group or orcs have a higher EL when they attack from ambush with poison arrows).
For something like this, where you're talking about an opponent that is potent in a specific environment - and especially one that the PCs aren't native to - that a group of 7th level PCs could probably take it out no prob. It really depends on how smart the group is, and how well they work together - if there's a decent psion, wizard, and divine spellcaster, between the 3 of them they can probably hinder and/or do enough damage to the creature before it even gets a chance to respond that the fighter-types may never even get themselves involved.
MM4 is using these modifiers. For instance, when a monster is lurking from above concealed in a tree canopy, its EL was increased from 4 to 5, IIRC.
There's a section on DMG that deals with these EL modifiers, I don't have the books here, so I can't say which page is it...
MM4 is using these modifiers. For instance, when a monster is lurking from above concealed in a tree canopy, its EL was increased from 4 to 5, IIRC.
Is this that their EL increases, or the CR of the encounter changes - I think it is a small but improtant difference - one just requires a higher level party, while the other actually gives them more XP?
I even used it in you kir'ren (check the encounter section) :P
Again, I don't have the books here, but I'm pretty sure the EL increases, the monster is still CR 4 (using the example I gave).
I even used it in you kir'ren (check the encounter section) :P
I know - I seen the layout and I like that the newer material is doing this.
I don't remember exactly what I was thinking when I chimed in with my response earlier...long day looking at numbers I guess.
back to the question on hand though, I know that there have been published examples in adventures when a creature with a stated CR would give out lower XP (ie the EL was lower) - the times I have seen this was when a dragon was in a cave, effectively reducing its attack options and also others where a creature was already wounded - the creature is still effectively retains their CR for whatever they are, but the XP generated from an encounter with a creature that is wounded or limited from doing what it normally could, gives out less XP.
Now given the fact that a cistern fiend is a water creature and is also stated out as having a specific environment that is limited does not reduce the CR or EL of the encounter IMO, the fiend was designed for that specific environment.
If a group knows that there is a cistern fiend ahead of them and are smart enough to prepare, I do not see that they would receive less XP when the encounter went down. if they want to beat the creature, they not only have to beat it physically, but they also have to devise a method of actually getting to the fiend - it lives in the water (and I think it can breathe water too) so if it is getting bashed, then it would just retreat - possibly making it impossible for characters to threaten the fiend unless then get in the water with it.
I think I am rambling - so I will go now.
I'm not sure about the EL/CR adjustment thingy either, although I think Brun is right - EL would change based on circumstances, but the CR remains the same.
Having to think a little harder about how to defeat a creature shouldn't modify it's CR - that's all part of the game, CR/EL, and XP system already.
But that's not the issue here. Here, it's a case of having to quite a little less hard about how to defeat the critter, because *you've* got a massive advantage that you didn't earn, being told where it is and that it can't move.
But that's not the issue here. Here, it's a case of having to quite a little less hard about how to defeat the critter, because *you've* got a massive advantage that you didn't earn, being told where it is and that it can't move.
Correct...which is why I think the Encounter Level changes, not the creature's CR. Going to go look it up right now...
And anyway, *never* trust a man carrying a loaf of French bread - you never know what he might have concealed inside of it.
Is it dwarven bread? If so I think you could.
Thats just silly - everyone knows that dwarves do not like french bread!
The spell would have to be changes to stale-elagh and the material component required (or focus) whould have to be the bread
It is strange, but it only mentions that you need a club or quarterstaff in the shillelagh spell - but it is not listed as a material component or focus for the spell
What? I can´t blindfold myself and trade my sword for a loaf of bread and gain more xp from killing low-level monsters? Aaaw....
No, but if someone else blindfolded you and traded your sword for a loaf of bread (it's actually not *that* far-fetched when you look at some stuff that the Roman Arena managers did to their poor gladiators) I'd hope you'd get some extra XPs. Or more likely, that the gladiator that killed you would get fewer XPs because of your artificial handicap.
No, but if someone else blindfolded you and traded your sword for a loaf of bread (it's actually not *that* far-fetched when you look at some stuff that the Roman Arena managers did to their poor gladiators) I'd hope you'd get some extra XPs. Or more likely, that the gladiator that killed you would get fewer XPs because of your artificial handicap.
I dunno - a gladiator wielding a loaf of bread should gain bonuses to their feint/Bluff attempts, perhaps even intimidate (I for one would hesitate to attack someone confidently wielding a piece of food), and they've got Imp. Unarmed Strike anyway so it's not like they're defenseless.
Plus - have you ever gotten bread stuck in your eye! Man, it really smarts....or aaaa...so I been told.
Yesterday I was mixing up a drink, one of those ones where you put powder into the liquid and stir, and some of the powder somehow got into my eye.
It wasn't bread but I bet it was close enough.
Did the liquid gain XP for that?
Nope - despite that setback I drank the whole thing, so I gained the XP. Still trying to calculate how much, though - I think 3 or 4 EL's below me, but it's difficult to judge.
I think the powder was more like a trap, and since you failed your Reflex Save, you don´t qualify for any experience points. Either that, or you failed your Profession (brewing) skill check (DC 5). You still don´t get any XPs.
The only problem with that theory is that I eventually succeeded at making and subsequently drinking it. So if it was a trap, then it must have had the "auto reset" feature - which I think increases the DC - and I apparently bypassed it on the second attempt.
Which brings up a good, related point - if your character were to create a Golem or a trap, one which is powerful enough to pose a threat (appropriate CR), could you then defeat it for XP? Although I'm guessing it'd cost more XP to make the golem than you'd get from defeating it, since traps have no XP cost then theoretically you could "turn money to experience" this way.
No clue how I've managed to get this thread from Cistern Fiend EL's to "can I get XP from my own trap?" Brax - I sincerely apologize.
I do not think it would give you XP - it would be like summoning your own monsters and killing them - it does not work that way.
The problem with looking at it that way is that if that were the case, a trap would *never* give XP for bypassing - instead, it would be considered "an aspect of the CR of the creator" and so you wouldn't get any XP for it...just XP if you defeat whoever created the trap. Same goes for golems - you'd never get XP for defeating them either. So in both cases you can't correspond this to the rules governing summoned monsters.
What I was saying, which is different, would be for a trap builder to build their own trap, and then disarm it - there is no XP gain here. So the issue you brough up is the same - a wizard would get not XP for killing his own construct under normal circumstances. Now I throw that last bit in to cover instances where "something" happens out side of the wizards control that would cause them to loose control of the golem. This would be an occurance outside of the wizards control -> and as such he would gain XP.
Now, just to cover myself on another front, if someone were to raise a young person to become a warrior, training them in the art of sword fighting, and then fight that person in a death match, I think they would get XP -> due to the autonomus nature of the other person, but most likely the person who trained and raised the other would most likely be several levels higher, making the XP gain small or none.
:D Way to spur on a thread derailing topic - phear!
With traps, however, I think that corresponding them directly to summoned monsters is still a bad idea - if you kill a summoned monster, regardless of who created it, you get no XP...but if you disarm a trap that someone else made you *do* get XP, which puts it into a different category from summoned monsters entirely. For instance, my BBEG could memorize nothing but Extended Summon spells, bring in a bunch of monsters, and then throw them at the PCs repeatedly while he hides in a completely different room; if the BBEG gets away then, unless defeating the summoned monsters was the point of the encounter, the PCs would probably not get any XP...or at best get some based on the BBEG's CR.
The same can't be said for traps - a bunch of 1st-level Experts could (by assisting each other), given enough time and money, construct a building overflowing with traps of all sorts. Those encountering the traps would get XP based on the trap's CR and whether or not they "bypassed" them, and the XP is totally unrelated to the level of the craftsman - if a 20th-level rogue made the traps the XP reward would be the same.
To relate this train-derailment back to the topic (...barely), you could use the "encounter was easy, 1/2 XP" modifier to account for disarming one's own traps - you know where it is and how it works, after all - but other than that I know of no "real" rules that would dictate you *not* getting XP. If someone
can find an actual rule, please let me know (as this idea is horrible), but otherwise I don't see any intrinsic, rules-based reason for why you wouldn't get the XP.
Does that mean that if you host a gladiator tornament, and win, you get no xp? ;)
Hehe yeah basically that's my point - as long as something actually stands the chance of hurting and/or killing you (i.e. has a CR you'd get XP for defeating) then it shouldn't matter whether or not you "created" it or not. Summoned monsters being the primary (...and only?) exception, of course.
On the topic of summoned creatures, that doesn't apply to creatures Gated in, summoned with Planar Binding, etc. does it? That'd be another cheesy way to gain "free" XP - summon in a devil without a magic circle, and just DimAnchor him so he can't get away. :P
Just like if a creature has additional time to prep for a fight (ie cast buffs, get into an ambush position, ect...) having equipement higher or lower then the average for your character level also adjusts the CR of the creature - I know that there have been published issues of this happening in Dungeon magazine - and the CR of the encounter has always been adjusted to reflect this.
Again, however, note that in most cases you're not supposed to adjust the CR of a monster, but instead modify the encounter level by 1 or 2 (up or down) and increase the XP given. In my above example of the weapon-resistant undead versus the rogues it'd really be more appropriate to give the group an extra 50% to 100% XP than to increase the monster's CR. CR modifications, when it really comes down to it, should be reserved for actual changes to the monster - adding or removing abilities (including magical items that they are listed as having...possibly), etc. If the *encounter* is more or less difficult because of the situation, that changes the EL and modifies the XP by a certain percentage as stated in the DMG. If the *monster* is more or less challenging because of some change made to their statistics then you modify their CR instead. As pg. 39 of the DMG describes it, orcs dropping rocks from flying hang gliders are a lot tougher than orcs charging with spears, and would increase the EL and XP award...but not their CR.