http://www.athas.org/releases/advancedbeings/Avangion-r2.pdf
I need to take another look to see if the issue of Str boosts to this creature being mitigated with some kind of ability burn and bonuses to Dex - that was a big sticking point to me with the last version.
1. Why are the Cha bonuses only +1 each time? Isn't it more standard to provide bonuses that are even numbers so they have the same effect for every character?
2. The Avangion Metamorphosis ability lets the avangion learn the next epic transformation spell without developping it. What is the reasoning behind this? Dragons don't get a similar ability. Also, as epic spells the transformations are quite malleable; it would be easy for a dragon to change a particular aspect of one of the spells since they are all researched independently. Apparently avangions are all supposed to be identical?
3. Why is the Int bonus in the later levels tied to the size increase? It seems odd that Small character should gain less "mystic insight" or whatever, just because they smaller. It seems like the mitigating factor should be more like "does not gain the strength bonus for increased size, but instead gains +4 Int," independent of the starting size.
Looks pretty good but I have a few questions:
1. Why are the Cha bonuses only +1 each time? Isn't it more standard to provide bonuses that are even numbers so they have the same effect for every character?
First off no bonuses are not standard at gaining +2 every time on epic spells... that is per individual bonus NOT +2 each time. This is a difference between epic spells and the shorter duration non epic spells.
Just as the ability boost you gain from leveling is in sets of +1 per so is the minor boosts that they get to Charisma.... the charisma is NOT a major boost to avangions it is a secondary bonus and thus is not given the same increases as would be expected for the primary ability of a PrC/template.
Also note there are plenty of things that give an odd number boost to stats, it is primarily magic items, temporary spells, and racial bonuses that grant it in even stages... and not always then.
2. The Avangion Metamorphosis ability lets the avangion learn the next epic transformation spell without developping it. What is the reasoning behind this? Dragons don't get a similar ability. Also, as epic spells the transformations are quite malleable; it would be easy for a dragon to change a particular aspect of one of the spells since they are all researched independently. Apparently avangions are all supposed to be identical?
First off, we are currently looking at a revamp of the dragon PrC/spell line along the same lines, so using the arguement that dragons do not get it would not apply.
The concept of the PrC is that it is the character exploring the nature of the newly granted abilities gained through the metamoprhosis, so the idea that they would gain the next spell in the generic spell line makes sense,
Also note the ability grants them the generic version of the next spell in the progression, an avangion would still be able to research a variant version with GM's permission... but they would NOT get it for free. They only get the one as presented for free. Which is the same thing we are looking at possibly for the dragons.
It is spaced out in such a way to encourage avangions to continue in the PrC as this not only gives them the standard advantages of the PrC but also lowers their cost if they are patient in completing the transformation, vs rushing it.
3. Why is the Int bonus in the later levels tied to the size increase? It seems odd that Small character should gain less "mystic insight" or whatever, just because they smaller. It seems like the mitigating factor should be more like "does not gain the strength bonus for increased size, but instead gains +4 Int," independent of the starting size.
This is strictly from a balance aspect... as a small character increasing to medium that does not gain the str bonus has less of a penalty than a medium going to a large.... so if we make them independant you are talking about halflings and smaller creatures gaining a significant advantage over medium size races upon gaining the size increases.
Note small size PC races are actually unbalanced attribute wise vs their medium size counterparts anyway when compared to the rules in the DMG for size changes.
consider normal PHB halflings, they have the following attribute modifiers: (in addition to the bonuses for small size and several abilities that more than make up for bonus skill points and a bonus feat)
+2 dex, -2 str
However a small size human would have the following stats: (with bonus for small size, plus skill boost, and bonus feat)
+2 dex, -4 str, -2 con
So from a balance standpoint we really needed to make them equivilent.... see it as there is a larger brain mass increase in the case of larger races if you want... but the main issue is one of balance.
First off, we are currently looking at a revamp of the dragon PrC/spell line along the same lines, so using the arguement that dragons do not get it would not apply.
The concept of the PrC is that it is the character exploring the nature of the newly granted abilities gained through the metamoprhosis, so the idea that they would gain the next spell in the generic spell line makes sense,
Also note the ability grants them the generic version of the next spell in the progression, an avangion would still be able to research a variant version with GM's permission... but they would NOT get it for free. They only get the one as presented for free. Which is the same thing we are looking at possibly for the dragons.
It is spaced out in such a way to encourage avangions to continue in the PrC as this not only gives them the standard advantages of the PrC but also lowers their cost if they are patient in completing the transformation, vs rushing it.
Just say no to compulsive symmetry!!!
I have to say that while I do have some questions/issues with some of the new version, which is great and a good step forward from v1, I have to shout out an emphatic NO to all who say that if a Dragon has X ability, then the Avangion would too and vise versa.
Keep them different and unique from each other. As long as their relative power at stage 10 and level 10 in the spell and class at about the same (but with differences to the use/function of the power) then I am happy.
And Kal, I agree with you fully - symmetry between Avangions and Dragons is nonsensical. It all comes down to whether or not they're a "good match" against each other.
Just say no to compulsive symmetry!!!
I have to say that while I do have some questions/issues with some of the new version, which is great and a good step forward from v1, I have to shout out an emphatic NO to all who say that if a Dragon has X ability, then the Avangion would too and vise versa.
Keep them different and unique from each other. As long as their relative power at stage 10 and level 10 in the spell and class at about the same (but with differences to the use/function of the power) then I am happy.
Well, the abiliy in question wouldn't be compulsive symmetry. It actually makes sense. If one of the two can spend the time developing the PrC, and being able to overcome the costs, it would make sense the other can to. However, don't be surprised if the rates for doing this are different. Dragons are a "quick and easy path" (to quote Star Wars), while Avangions take a bit longer.
Well, the abiliy in question wouldn't be compulsive symmetry. It actually makes sense. If one of the two can spend the time developing the PrC, and being able to overcome the costs, it would make sense the other can to. However, don't be surprised if the rates for doing this are different. Dragons are a "quick and easy path" (to quote Star Wars), while Avangions take a bit longer.
Well - just so it is noted that I have spoken my piece on this subject - :P
Just say no to compulsive symmetry!!!
I have to say that while I do have some questions/issues with some of the new version, which is great and a good step forward from v1, I have to shout out an emphatic NO to all who say that if a Dragon has X ability, then the Avangion would too and vise versa.
Keep them different and unique from each other. As long as their relative power at stage 10 and level 10 in the spell and class at about the same (but with differences to the use/function of the power) then I am happy.
Okay, xlor already caught most of the arguement on compulsive symmetry for me.... we are in NO way trying to make the two exactly alike... they are totally seperate things.
HOWEVER I need to say to all the people who immediately knee jerk reaction to anything being even similiar on the avangions and dragons and yell NO compulsive symmetry, the two races/metamorphosi are actually two sides of a single concept... so there should be some similarities between THESE two metamorphosi..... (ie both have similiar PrC's that represent the advancement of the arcane/psionic powers, and both have 10 stage spells to complete the metamorphosis.) now the divine ones are a totally different animal but the arcane ones are very similiar at least on the concept behind the PrC portion.
After all the PrC is supposed to represent the dragon/avangion's exploring their powers dealing with magic and psionics that they gained from the casting of the epic spells. And the figuring out the next stage in the metamorphosis makes sense to be a portion of the PrC's for this specific reason.
So while you will see some similarities on the PrC portion of the two (though they are by no means identical) it is due to the very concept of the PrC portion not any form of compulsive symmetry.
Okay, xlor already caught most of the arguement on compulsive symmetry for me.... we are in NO way trying to make the two exactly alike... they are totally seperate things.
HOWEVER I need to say to all the people who immediately knee jerk reaction to anything being even similiar on the avangions and dragons and yell NO compulsive symmetry, the two races/metamorphosi are actually two sides of a single concept... so there should be some similarities between THESE two metamorphosi..... (ie both have similiar PrC's that represent the advancement of the arcane/psionic powers, and both have 10 stage spells to complete the metamorphosis.) now the divine ones are a totally different animal but the arcane ones are very similiar at least on the concept behind the PrC portion.
After all the PrC is supposed to represent the dragon/avangion's exploring their powers dealing with magic and psionics that they gained from the casting of the epic spells. And the figuring out the next stage in the metamorphosis makes sense to be a portion of the PrC's for this specific reason.
So while you will see some similarities on the PrC portion of the two (though they are by no means identical) it is due to the very concept of the PrC portion not any form of compulsive symmetry.
Exactly my take on it as well. One would expect there to be some similarities in some of the PrC mechanics, and the spell mechanics, as well as the structure of the whole process all together -- because as seker said, they really are two sides of the same idea.
I'm personally of the mind that the Avangion process was developed by someone who had intimate knowledge of the Dragon metamorphosis (Oronis), and spent centuries cleaning up the process and making it something that has all of the defiler aspects of the process removed, retrofitted with elements that focus on preserving instead. For me, this is also the core of the reason that the Avangion process is harder -- it is adapting a procedure originally devised for penultimate defilers, and restructuring it into something that is for penultimate preservers. The dragon process is easier, because it isn't modeled after any particular (well, known) thing, it was not developed with Avangions in mind at all; while the Avangion process was designed with Dragons already around.
Now, officially, Athas.org doesn't support the idea that Oronis invented the process -- because there are different takes on the notion, and the Athas.org idealogy is when there are conflicts & confusion in the material, attempt to remain neutral between the different viewpoints and let the individual DMs decide which side of the argument works for their individual campaigns. I was simply providing my own personal opinion and take on the idea, and yes that personal opinion does color my stance when it comes to developing the Avangion and Dragon.
And even in 2nd edition there was a symmetry between the two arcane advanced beings and how they transformed... their spellcasting was identical in power, the psionics was lower for dragons... and they had 10 stages.... we are trying to keep these core concepts in what we are doing in the epic bureau.
outside of those 3 core things... there are significant variances.... when dragons and avangions get the free spells is looking to be at different levels. (dragons gaining it quicker) which accurately represents the fact that the preserver method is more difficult to complete and research.... The actual physical and power changes... the special psionic enchantments that are unique to each of the advanced beings as well as the general ones.... some special epci feats for each advanced being type.... the fact that avangions gain actual psionic power instead of just ML at a faster rate than dragons (which is taken from the original versions of them actually, though dragons may just get a slight boost in this department too *grin*)
I think the Avangion should get the full STR bonus for size converted into INT. The loss of all physical methods of interacting with their environment merits a much bigger INT boost, IMHO, and rules-wise, if I have correctly inferred what I've read in the core books, even doubling it would not break the balance, in fact it would perfectly support it.
Doubling is a little much I think. Adding any Int bonus at all is significantly ramping up the capabilities of the Avangion and +4 a whack is pretty sweet. That's +2 to save DC's, more power points and more spells, not to mention the bonuses to Int based skills and Avangion abilities that rely on Intelligence as their primary attribute. As much as I'd, in the ubergamer sense, would want it to be the full +8 that I don't get from Strength, I still think that +4 is fair and (assuming that I'm misinterpretting what you mean by doubling the bonus) that +16 Intelligence would be absolutely break the game.
To the Athas.org folks: Love the new write up. Far better than the original and the original was pretty dang neat. I see many of the player concerns in your new adaptation of the Avangion and that's a good sight to see. Good work!
-X
Doubling is a little much I think. Adding any Int bonus at all is significantly ramping up the capabilities of the Avangion and +4 a whack is pretty sweet. That's +2 to save DC's, more power points and more spells, not to mention the bonuses to Int based skills and Avangion abilities that rely on Intelligence as their primary attribute. As much as I'd, in the ubergamer sense, would want it to be the full +8 that I don't get from Strength, I still think that +4 is fair and (assuming that I'm misinterpretting what you mean by doubling the bonus) that +16 Intelligence would be absolutely break the game.
To the Athas.org folks: Love the new write up. Far better than the original and the original was pretty dang neat. I see many of the player concerns in your new adaptation of the Avangion and that's a good sight to see. Good work!
-X
Exactly why we went only half the str bonus for the int bonus... a +8 int bonus to replace a +8 str on a character that is int based would literally break the game. It is too strong... we looked at that quite carefully... both on threads on this board and in the bureau. (also Jon and I had a discussion on it while I was working on the final stages of this version.)
And I am glad you are enjoying the new version, we took alot of time to go over all the concerns presented to us on the prior version and tried to balance them while keeping it in tune with prior information about them.
and alot of the concerns people had on the original version of the avangion got us thinking about the dragons too. We really do appreciate the feedback
I think the Avangion should get the full STR bonus for size converted into INT. The loss of all physical methods of interacting with their environment merits a much bigger INT boost, IMHO, and rules-wise, if I have correctly inferred what I've read in the core books, even doubling it would not break the balance, in fact it would perfectly support it.
to go over your specific concerns....
A size increase while it give bonuses to hit and stuff ALSO gives penalties to hit smaller creatures.... so that +8 str that would normally give a +4 to hit is significantly decreased by the fact that most of your targes are now smaller so you have a harder time hitting them.
However there is NO penalty to hitting opponents with most spells/powers by you getting larger. (and int boost gives you more spells per day in bonus spells, more power points for psions, higher DC for spells and powers, plus more skill points, increases in most of your class skills.... as many are int based.) So the int boosts has no real drawbacks....
Add to this that Str is virtually useless to a avangion whereas Int is used for just about everything for them, save a few of their special abilities.
for a dragon Str is quite usefull, but to an Avangion it is quite literally a stat they will never use after a certain point.
Also, does the Avangion's ability to absorb magic items and use them as permanent effects include rods, staves and wands? And what about Psionic items like Power Stones, Dorjes, and Third Eyes?
I think you may have misunderstood me. I am totally in agreement with the STR bonus being converted into INT. STR is indeed useless for an Avangion. I perhaps just should have said I think the INT bonus should be bigger, to compensate for the lack of a body.
No we were quite aware that was what you were saying... I am not sure you understood our responses.
A straight increase in Int as powerful as you are talking about is overpowered and breaks play balance.
There are penalties on the part of size increases that mitigate Str increases as powerful as they are .... there are NO mitigating factors against Int increases, so they have to be lowered to allow it ot keep playablity.
And as pure casters/manifesters have almost no use for Str anyway on average for their primary abilities the loss of a massive Str increase does not truely harm them in any significant way.... but the Int boost, in the levels you are reffering to, would quickly put them FAR ahead of any other caster/manifester of their level.
We had to balance it to make sure it did not break play balance, and a half rate seems to work best for that.
Also, does the Avangion's ability to absorb magic items and use them as permanent effects include rods, staves and wands? And what about Psionic items like Power Stones, Dorjes, and Third Eyes?
I will have to double check, but I think I specified that it allows the Avangion to absorb magic items of specific slots.... unslotted items like rods/staves/wands and the like cannot therefor be absorbed.... and while psionic items are not specifically mentioned they would normally not be included in something like this... but we left it open for GM interpitation to allow specific GMs to do so with no problems.
More generally, the avangion still doesn't really have a way to interact with the rest of the world physically. Not that they should be masters of physical interaction, or even very good at it, but it still seems they are weakened too much by having no arms/etc. Maybe they should get something like
Telekinetic aura(??): The avangion may manipulate objects within their aura telekinetically as if they were using their own arms and hands with an effective strength of [5 | their strength | their strength -X]. This does not allow avangions to manipulate more items than they normally could with their original physical body, but does allow them to use rods, staves, wands, etc as if they were held by the avangion.
They just need something so they don't have to spend rounds of concentration using far hand whenever they want to open a door.
How does an avangion use rods/staves/wands then? Far hand just allows you to move an object, not manipulate it as if you were holding it, plus since it's a psi-like ability it takes a standard action to start and a move action to make use of, and requires continuous concentration to maintain. Also, while unlikely given their magical/psionic defenses, it can still be dispelled.
More generally, the avangion still doesn't really have a way to interact with the rest of the world physically. Not that they should be masters of physical interaction, or even very good at it, but it still seems they are weakened too much by having no arms/etc. Maybe they should get something like
Telekinetic aura(??): The avangion may manipulate objects within their aura telekinetically as if they were using their own arms and hands with an effective strength of [5 | their strength | their strength -X]. This does not allow avangions to manipulate more items than they normally could with their original physical body, but does allow them to use rods, staves, wands, etc as if they were held by the avangion.
They just need something so they don't have to spend rounds of concentration using far hand whenever they want to open a door.
As avangions of stage 5 and greater have far hand as an at will psi-like ability and while I do not see anything that prevents them from using a staff/rod/wand through this ability, even if that were the case they would not be limmited to that as the only way to use such items.
As while it specifies they cannot wield hand held weapons it DOES NOT state they cannot actually hold thing within their folds. Just is showing that the limbs are not strong enough and cannot grip well enough to swing a weapon effectively in combat
and considering that the act of turning as knob and pushing a door requires much less effort than even an unaugmented far hand would do.... why in the world would an Avangion be doing so??? after all it is not like they would even be able to fit through normal doors in their natural form by the time they get to this stage.
And anytime they would be going through a normal door in a different form.... well they will likely have normal hands then wont they.
Oh I almost forgot.... while for most Avangions would have no real need for it... in some of the epic feats I have been working up for later things in the bureau for us to look at one is a feat that requires the ability to use far hand as a psi like ability..... which amplifies the far hand ability to allow the character to use far hand as if they were physically manipulating the object in their own hands using their manifesting ability score as their Str. (so a psion/avangion of the 5th stage with a 22 int... would be able to telekinetically manipulate objects as if they had a 22 str at the standard range for far hand.)
Though this is still in the working stage... and it is hardly something that all avangions would have.
As avangions of stage 5 and greater have far hand as an at will psi-like ability and while I do not see anything that prevents them from using a staff/rod/wand through this ability, even if that were the case they would not be limmited to that as the only way to use such items.
For staves and wands at least you must hold them in your hand (or what passes for a hand) to use them, so far hand doesn't work there.
As while it specifies they cannot wield hand held weapons it DOES NOT state they cannot actually hold thing within their folds. Just is showing that the limbs are not strong enough and cannot grip well enough to swing a weapon effectively in combat
The description says that the arms and legs cannot support their own weight which can easily be interpreted to mean they can't hold anything.
and considering that the act of turning as knob and pushing a door requires much less effort than even an unaugmented far hand would do.... why in the world would an Avangion be doing so??? after all it is not like they would even be able to fit through normal doors in their natural form by the time they get to this stage.
And anytime they would be going through a normal door in a different form.... well they will likely have normal hands then wont they.
Doors are just an example. I don't see anything that indicates they can write, use tools effectively, etc, while using far hand. Essentially my complaint is not that they can't do things, but that they can't manipulate anything with reasonable dexterity. I realize other forms do not suffer this restriction, but what's the point of transforming yourself if you're always going to have a different physical form anyway.
Oh I almost forgot.... while for most Avangions would have no real need for it... in some of the epic feats I have been working up for later things in the bureau for us to look at one is a feat that requires the ability to use far hand as a psi like ability..... which amplifies the far hand ability to allow the character to use far hand as if they were physically manipulating the object in their own hands using their manifesting ability score as their Str. (so a psion/avangion of the 5th stage with a 22 int... would be able to telekinetically manipulate objects as if they had a 22 str at the standard range for far hand.)
Though this is still in the working stage... and it is hardly something that all avangions would have.
Sounds interesting, but this would allow them to engage in melee combat again, with a much better effective strength score than normal.
Also, on an unrelated note, I think the descriptions of the spells could be cleaned up a little to separate physical changes from special abilities from spellcasting requirements, etc. Even splitting them into paragraphs would make things easier to read, and help distinguish the flavortext from the rules elements. I know this is still in the draft stages, but it would help me parse everything.
For staves and wands at least you must hold them in your hand (or what passes for a hand) to use them, so far hand doesn't work there.
true but per the actual change description they could still weild them in their hands/folds....
The description says that the arms and legs cannot support their own weight which can easily be interpreted to mean they can't hold anything.
no that is reading into what is written pretty heavily..... remember this is after size change without str change..... so they have gotten heavier without actually increasing in str.
You are reading into what is actually written.
Doors are just an example. I don't see anything that indicates they can write, use tools effectively, etc, while using far hand. Essentially my complaint is not that they can't do things, but that they can't manipulate anything with reasonable dexterity. I realize other forms do not suffer this restriction, but what's the point of transforming yourself if you're always going to have a different physical form anyway.
dragons in other worlds have this exact same problem... as do most other creatures that are not a humanoid form. They are choosing to lose a humanoid form.... they get in return... basic telekinesis.... wonderful movement.... a more powerfull mind.... no longer needing material or somatic components.... and many many more things... it is part of the price.
dragons also would lose the ability to use the many wands and other small magic item easily as they got bigger... nonhumanoid forms comes with a price
Sounds interesting, but this would allow them to engage in melee combat again, with a much better effective strength score than normal.
well considering the feat is NOT just for avangions... as some epic manifesters would find uses for it too.... it represents a pinacle of mastering a psi like ability of far hand. And even using a int instead of str to hit.... their BAB is still based on their classes.
Also, on an unrelated note, I think the descriptions of the spells could be cleaned up a little to separate physical changes from special abilities from spellcasting requirements, etc. Even splitting them into paragraphs would make things easier to read, and help distinguish the flavortext from the rules elements. I know this is still in the draft stages, but it would help me parse everything.
This is a good idea.
Do they permanently lose the slot like an archmage, or they just use the slot for the day?
Other question: shouldn't the avangion have a manifester level for their tongues, discern lies, detect chaos/evil/good/law psi-like abilities?
Other question: shouldn't the avangion have a manifester level for their tongues, discern lies, detect chaos/evil/good/law psi-like abilities?
I'd assume it equals their manifester level, when necessary.
As for the things with wands and such, while I want a way to keep them, too, maybe that's their way of pushing the "higher int means more bonus spells" facet. I have a bit of difficulty imagining an Avangion getting more wands than they craft, meaning that they know the spells in them that they like (lightning bolt, for example), and they'll get more castings a day as their int increases. Maybe they are expected to rely more on their personal/internal powers. Dragons can't be too better off, with spears as fingers, trying to lift a puny wand, or a toothpick, er wait, I mean staff. I've heard little tidbits about how dragons could maybe attach wands to their wingspurs, but... If they have to polymorph to use certain items, then I suppose Avangions can be likewise burdened.
Thought: Avangions don't do as much damage to environs as Dragons when casting spells. How will their wands and such work? Do they defile, or has energy been stored within when they were fabricated? If they did harm, Avangions might not want to use them so much anyway, especially with their extra spells.
Last bit: In the DMG, blackguards can exchange paladin levels for blackguard levels, and Dragonlance PCs can exchange stuff between wizards and sorcerers, and clerics and mystics. Can a character with levels in either dragon or avangion who changes sides exchange levels (not stages)? I figure when Keltis became Oronis, he had a number of levels of dragon, and he divorced himself of them, but I doubt he just lost # levels and Hit Dice. I'd guess he just traded in abilities between the two. One of my best thughts for becoming an Avangion would be a lot like Oronis, by starting out dragon, and using that drive for power to reveal the process, but then realize the harm, or have some kind of epiphany, and go preserver. Windering if one COULD trade levels, though. Thanks.
I just thought of a quandry. Oronis is an Avangion, but do we know how far along he is? If he is 10th-stage, then he is a good deal more powerful than many of the SKs, and their 1-4 stages of dragon. I ask mostly because, especially with the morphability of epic spells, one reason there might be several beings of similar shape is that they used someone else as their template. A SK fifured out dragon, and told the others what shape, while other Avangions might encounter Oronis, and use him as a template for their own future changes. Whether Oronis invented Avangion or not, if he isn't 10th-stage, than no one in world might know what a 10th-stage Avangion looks like/can do. No being on Athas might have aura. I was just wondering how some characters might learn what their next shape will be, if even the mighty Avangion King, himself, hasn't progressed past a certain stage (whatever that is)? I guess he could be relatively far through, especially with beings like Dregoth being 9th-stage dragons.
Last bit: In the DMG, blackguards can exchange paladin levels for blackguard levels, and Dragonlance PCs can exchange stuff between wizards and sorcerers, and clerics and mystics. Can a character with levels in either dragon or avangion who changes sides exchange levels (not stages)? I figure when Keltis became Oronis, he had a number of levels of dragon, and he divorced himself of them, but I doubt he just lost # levels and Hit Dice. I'd guess he just traded in abilities between the two. One of my best thughts for becoming an Avangion would be a lot like Oronis, by starting out dragon, and using that drive for power to reveal the process, but then realize the harm, or have some kind of epiphany, and go preserver. Windering if one COULD trade levels, though. Thanks.
I would say no to level exchange. Oronis definately lost levels and HD. he almost died. And it was a very, very drastic change. The method of approach is such that I would say that dragons can't really defile anymore with out epic spell intervension, and avangions are past the point where they need to worry about defiling's lure. As a DM, it should never happen with out major undertaking, and even then it should really only go from defiler to preserver as advanced beings go.
I just thought of a quandry. Oronis is an Avangion, but do we know how far along he is?
According to the materials at hand (I want to say the Wanderer's Chronicle) he was listed as level 21 or 22, so he'd be a 1st or 2nd-stage Avangion.
Whether Oronis invented Avangion or not, if he isn't 10th-stage, than no one in world might know what a 10th-stage Avangion looks like/can do.
My point exactly. I rule that people *don't* know what they look like, or can do. Not even Oronis. He's simply going down the path, but he doesn't have some cheat telling him what the path ends up at.
No being on Athas might have aura. I was just wondering how some characters might learn what their next shape will be, if even the mighty Avangion King, himself, hasn't progressed past a certain stage (whatever that is)? I guess he could be relatively far through, especially with beings like Dregoth being 9th-stage dragons.
I seriously don't think anyone knows, or has to know, what the next stage does physically to them, until they cast that stage's spell. It's a crapshoot, really -- a spell cast blind, without full comprehension of what it will completely do. Dragons have the advantage of having seen what Borys turned into, and what Dregoth is.
Last bit: In the DMG, blackguards can exchange paladin levels for blackguard levels, and Dragonlance PCs can exchange stuff between wizards and sorcerers, and clerics and mystics. Can a character with levels in either dragon or avangion who changes sides exchange levels (not stages)? I figure when Keltis became Oronis, he had a number of levels of dragon, and he divorced himself of them, but I doubt he just lost # levels and Hit Dice. I'd guess he just traded in abilities between the two. One of my best thughts for becoming an Avangion would be a lot like Oronis, by starting out dragon, and using that drive for power to reveal the process, but then realize the harm, or have some kind of epiphany, and go preserver. Windering if one COULD trade levels, though. Thanks.
I would rule against it actually. I would rule that a Dragon redeeming himself, would basically remain the same level, but would have to regain the amount of XP necessary to reach that level again after subtracting the Dragon PrC levels, before being able to advance to another level. I do rule that the ex-Dragon can still use the dragon abilities he or she has gained -- but that immediately bestows the Dragon PrC back to it's original level and status and the individual has to start back at square one in order to purge himself again (it is a constant temptation). However, that temptation vanishes once the individual is able to cast the first-stage Avangion spell.
However, bear in mind -- the ex-Dragon turned Avangion, would still need to make the amount of XP to be able to advance 1 level, in order to take any levels in the Avangion PrC. So:
- Starting as:
- 17 Wiz(Defiler)/11 Psion/2 Dragon (Character Level 30)
- Would have to develop some kind of Epic spell to lose any physical changes gained from the spells.
- Would need to go through whatever "redemption" process is devised by the DM to change from Defiler to Preserver.
- Any use of the Dragon PrC abilities immediately removes this.
- Develop & cast the stage-1 Avangion spell
- Must advance 1 character level to be able to take a level in the Avangion PrC
- In order to advance one more character level, he or she would need to gain enough XP to match his Character Level, as if he or she did not have the Dragon PrC (so, in this case, from Character Level 28 -> Character Level 31 would need to be gained). Once that is gained, the character can choose either the Psion or Wizard class to have gained those levels (or any other class the character has), which erases the Dragon PrC completely from the character.
- In other words, The character must not use any Dragon abilities at all, and must gain the XP to go from level 28 -> level 31 before being able to take 1 level of the Avangion PrC. The Dragon PrC levels are replaced with levels in a class that the new Avangion already has, and cannot be the Avangion PrC. Any use of the Dragon PrC abilities before this is done cancels the stage-1 Avangion spell, and reverts the character to being a Defiler once again. After this XP gain is done, and the Dragon PrC levels are replaced, the character loses all abilities gained from the Dragon PrC and therefore no longer has to worry about this temptation.
- In order to advance one more character level, he or she would need to gain enough XP to match his Character Level, as if he or she did not have the Dragon PrC (so, in this case, from Character Level 28 -> Character Level 31 would need to be gained). Once that is gained, the character can choose either the Psion or Wizard class to have gained those levels (or any other class the character has), which erases the Dragon PrC completely from the character.
- Ends as:
- Variation #1: 19 Wiz(Defiler)/11 Psion/1 Avangion (Character Level 31)
- Variation #2: 18 Wiz(Defiler)/12 Psion/1 Avangion (Character Level 31)
- Variation #3: 17 Wiz(Defiler)/13 Psion/1 Avangion (Character Level 31)
- Variation #1: 19 Wiz(Defiler)/11 Psion/1 Avangion (Character Level 31)
Mind you, that's my personal take on it. I don't like the idea of substitution levels replacing Dragon PrC with Avangion PrC, because I see the two as diametrically opposite, and therefore completely incompatible for such substitutions. Dragons going through redemption to become Avangions have a harder, slower road to take than Preservers taking the path to Avangionhood directly.
perfect explaination. exaclty what I'd do.
Of course, the farther you are as a Dragon, the harder it is to become an Avangion with this ruling.
The Epic spell used to remove the effects of the Dragon metamorphosis spells should reflect a similar level of difficulty as casting the Dragon metamorphosis spells had been. It isn't easy to become a Dragon, and it shouldn't be easy to get rid of it (in fact, the phrase "life threatening" springs to mind).
My personal take on the mixing of Dragon and Avangion in Oronis is this - he retains some of the physical characteristics of his time as a dragon - lets face it, his type went from human-->dragon-->aberration, not human-->aberration like all (we think) avangions have went. The very fact that his type was dragon when he made the change should make his transfored "look" different then other avangions of the same stage. Of course we do not know which stage he was in as a dragon when he made the change either - which is another factor that would effect is final appearance.
IMC - I have Oronis at like 8th stage - and the form he has shown my PCs is one he assumes using his spells and powers - and it is a mix of a dragon and avangion, but that is in my game only, sooo....
I had though that that material placed Oronis at stage 3 or 4 - and I think he should be AT LEAST that - Korgunard was a 3 (?) stage avangion at the end of Arcane Shadows IIRC - I would think that Oronis would have to be 2 or 3 stages higher then that.
I think that was an inconsistancy on the part of the developers. Because I could have sworn that Oronis was at most, stage 3.
My personal take on the mixing of Dragon and Avangion in Oronis is this - he retains some of the physical characteristics of his time as a dragon - lets face it, his type went from human-->dragon-->aberration, not human-->aberration like all (we think) avangions have went. The very fact that his type was dragon when he made the change should make his transfored "look" different then other avangions of the same stage. Of course we do not know which stage he was in as a dragon when he made the change either - which is another factor that would effect is final appearance.
I would say he went from human -> dragon -> human -> aberration. I don't think he went straight from dragon to abberation -- there was a period there where he had to, well, figure out the Avangion spell process (at least, if he didn't actually invent it himself).
IMC - I have Oronis at like 8th stage - and the form he has shown my PCs is one he assumes using his spells and powers - and it is a mix of a dragon and avangion, but that is in my game only, sooo....
Wow, you make him WAY more advanced than I ever would. I'd make him Stage-3, tops. Anything higher means that he's somehow been able to advance at a considerable rate faster than the other Champions have as Dragons.
See - I DO think Oronis has our would have, traveled in time - the Kreen have a legend of an Avangion that sounded rather advanced to me, and that is an old ledgend for them. The way I see it - Oronis made these time spells, visiting the past. Well, his future self may have visite him also visited his current time self - which would allow him to know what he would look like, and maybe nudgeing him along the path.
But like I said - this is my game and I run my PCs on the edge of death (I love to make the big women cry when I hit their fighter with a maximized ray of enfeeblement!! muuuhahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for outpacing the SKs in transformation, well, who says that some of them even give a damn anymore? They are already nigh-all powerful; what's a few more tricks? Sure, they are all power-mad, and that can be motivation enough, but still... Besides, what's so big a jump with Avangion 7 or 8? Borys was 10th/full dragon, and Dregoth is sitting at 9th/stage 8, or so, if I remember reading the pdf right. Keltis/Oronis can't be too much younger than them, and if Dregoth has been a corpse that crawls for a while, thus not able to transform further, then he managed to hit his levels in a good amount of time. Driven, Oronis could conceivably achieve as much. (Especially if his future-self were giving him pointers.)
Oh, yeah, this is the Avangion write-up thread, not the levels of the Chronomancer Oronis the Coutl thread. As for the write up now, I really like it. I didn't imagine that their DR would get that good, but with the slight dex loss and Def loss attached to it (not including the NICE deflection bonus they get anyway), I surely am not complaining. I also like that the DR isn't attached to obsidian or metal. Mithral and darksteel are special substances, but rarity doesn't really make metal uber-mighty, and obsidian can shatter. While I am not complaining, though, what;s up with the natural armor? I didn't imagine that they were getting more durable that way. Something like inertial armor I could see ("my mental might protects me!"), not assuming they have that, too, but their flesh wasn't really getting more durable, i thought. I suppose, however, any boost to defense is a godsend, especially when your dragon foe swipes claws the size of machetes, and has ginormous strength added to his BAB.
Now, if ony a PrC that made sense could give them Canny Defense (Int bonus to Defense)... :D
Now, if ony a PrC that made sense could give them Canny Defense (Int bonus to Defense)... :D
The current AB PrCs seem to focus more on the manifesting and casting aspects the dragons and avangion. Perhaps there could be a second set of AB PrCs that focus more on the dragon's and avangion's physical abilities. Examples of what the PrCs could enhance could be the dragon's breath weapon and claw and bite attacks, or the avangions flight maneuverability and natural speed.
If the avangion gets any faster, we will have to see if they break the sound barrier :D {BOOM}
I was thinking more along the lines of evasion, improved evasion, and uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge abilities.
I'd be inclined to agree that an Avangion is fast and agile enough, and if the Dragon's attacks were to get EVEN stronger, nothing would be a balanced match for them.
The current AB PrCs seem to focus more on the manifesting and casting aspects the dragons and avangion. Perhaps there could be a second set of AB PrCs that focus more on the dragon's and avangion's physical abilities. Examples of what the PrCs could enhance could be the dragon's breath weapon and claw and bite attacks, or the avangions flight maneuverability and natural speed.
I think making two avangion prcs is a bad thing IMO, but it would be really cool if epic feats allowed to do the things you mentioned (maybe even additional metamorphosis spells).
I think making two avangion prcs is a bad thing IMO, but it would be really cool if epic feats allowed to do the things you mentioned (maybe even additional metamorphosis spells).
I can't see why. There are plenty of PrCs that are tied to specific races or creature types. To limit dragons and avangions to one racial PrC is pretty "vanilla" and narrow IMO. I realize that theres nothing preventing them from taking levels in other classes, but by offering another choice, in the form of a second PrC or substitution levels, based on AB type would help further diversify one dragon/avangion from another. This IMO would be a good thing.
The sets of abilities I’m considering would be far outside the scope of epic feats (or should be anyway) and are best captured in the form of class features. With your logic, one could justify breaking down the already exisiting dragon and avangion PrC abilities into epic feats.
Well - I do have him as being a time traveler - kinda - which is why i made those Epic spells - Step into the Past and Door of Time. I have not stated him out, bu that was the assumption of his levels that I had made for my game.
See - I DO think Oronis has our would have, traveled in time - the Kreen have a legend of an Avangion that sounded rather advanced to me, and that is an old ledgend for them. The way I see it - Oronis made these time spells, visiting the past. Well, his future self may have visite him also visited his current time self - which would allow him to know what he would look like, and maybe nudgeing him along the path.
But like I said - this is my game and I run my PCs on the edge of death (I love to make the big women cry when I hit their fighter with a maximized ray of enfeeblement!! muuuhahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA
The only problem I have with Oronis meddling in his own past or future, is that such actions create paradoxes which are next to impossible to explain away. For example if he teaches himself to become an avangion with a future/past version of himself, then how did the original Oronis, the one doing the time traveling, learn to become an avangion without assistance?
Such paradoxes should be avoided at all cost. Yes, perhaps he does do some time traveling, but should never be permitted to manipulate future/past events for the benefit of the present. Such actions run contrary to the character of any avangion imho.
Moving on, I do like some of the ideas in the new version of the avangion, however, my concerns have already been mostly addressed by Xlor and others.
I can't see why. There are plenty of PrCs that are tied to specific races or creature types. To limit dragons and avangions to one racial PrC is pretty "vanilla" and narrow IMO. I realize that theres nothing preventing them from taking levels in other classes, but by offering another choice, in the form of a second PrC or substitution levels, based on AB type would help further diversify one dragon/avangion from another. This IMO would be a good thing.
The sets of abilities I’m considering would be far outside the scope of epic feats (or should be anyway) and are best captured in the form of class features. With your logic, one could justify breaking down the already exisiting dragon and avangion PrC abilities into epic feats.
I’ve actually had a change of heart. After doing some further brainstorming and research, I’m going agree with Brun’s suggestion of heading in the direction of epic feats.
By making the abilities I have in mind racial epic feats with prerequisites tied to a specific metamorphosis stage I can justify these feats being a bit more powerful than the norm. I’ll have something to post in a separate thread within the week.
As for PrCs for these ABs, I'd say no way. There aren't enough Avangions, or Dragons, as far as I know, to warrant additional prestige classes that they have. One avangion isn't going to have his "racial" prestige class, nor a whole woppin' dozen dragons, or so. Besides, at their level, leveling up shouldn't happen too often, so they shouldn't get very far through any additional PrC, to me. Racial feats are maybe better, but I think of a race as a group of individuals that can reproduce more of themselves. Two dragons won't get it on, lay eggs, and make more dragons (will they?), and so, I don't think they should really qualify as a race, that way. If you have feats that have a prerequisite that excludes everything other than Avangions, or Dragons, it shouldn't be too hard to pick a feature, and slap it in as a prereq, kinda like needing to have levitation to take a feat. I've seen some feats that require possessing a PrC class feature, and you could just grab one from the metamorp spells, or the PrC that Dragons or Avangions already have.
Now, epic metamorph spells for the scintillating colors and spell turning; heck, why not? I say it sounds cool. They already are doing roughly that, and they could easily experiment on their forms, with the flexibility of epic spells. It doesn't depend on leveling up (other than gaining XP to spend), and they are already proficient at the process; it's what they're doing.
People might not like pulling from other campaign worlds, but at least CCS is open, then. Someone didn't mind drawing Archmage out of Faerūn, and making it general for all worlds, so...
That person, persons in fact, are WotC employes. Big difference.
Racial feats are maybe better, but I think of a race as a group of individuals that can reproduce more of themselves. Two dragons won't get it on, lay eggs, and make more dragons (will they?), and so, I don't think they should really qualify as a race, that way. If you have feats that have a prerequisite that excludes everything other than Avangions, or Dragons, it shouldn't be too hard to pick a feature, and slap it in as a prereq, kinda like needing to have levitation to take a feat.
There are no races in D&D, only types and subtypes, which are allowed to be used as prerequisites for feats and PrCs. Dragons and avangions cannot reproduce by producing more of themselves; if they try to do so they only end up producing more of their original type and subtype. All evidence in TSR materials points to this.
The only problem I have with Oronis meddling in his own past or future, is that such actions create paradoxes which are next to impossible to explain away. For example if he teaches himself to become an avangion with a future/past version of himself, then how did the original Oronis, the one doing the time traveling, learn to become an avangion without assistance?
Such paradoxes should be avoided at all cost. Yes, perhaps he does do some time traveling, but should never be permitted to manipulate future/past events for the benefit of the present. Such actions run contrary to the character of any avangion imho.
In mathematics there are serious headache concepts called PROOFS. Its the sort of thing that proves a concept true or fals... if the future oronis comes to the past one, and says, here's this info, and now you need to prove that its true without my help, then its like learning backwards.. sorta... (or learning the same way we're taught in school :P) you're taught to 'do' the material, then the 'why' it works part is taught... Oronis could teach him the 'do' part... give him a working spell, yet still force himself to do the research... then the spell isn't formed of nothing, and he still gets a leg up.
(or wing) :P make sense? there's a certain temporal logic. ;)As for new PrCs well... what else does an epic immortal have to do? Not all are out there to kill or be killed, some may be rather aloof... works for me
I had though that that material placed Oronis at stage 3 or 4 - and I think he should be AT LEAST that - Korgunard was a 3 (?) stage avangion at the end of Arcane Shadows IIRC - I would think that Oronis would have to be 2 or 3 stages higher then that.
My personal take on the mixing of Dragon and Avangion in Oronis is this - he retains some of the physical characteristics of his time as a dragon - lets face it, his type went from human-->dragon-->aberration, not human-->aberration like all (we think) avangions have went. The very fact that his type was dragon when he made the change should make his transfored "look" different then other avangions of the same stage. Of course we do not know which stage he was in as a dragon when he made the change either - which is another factor that would effect is final appearance.
IMC - I have Oronis at like 8th stage - and the form he has shown my PCs is one he assumes using his spells and powers - and it is a mix of a dragon and avangion, but that is in my game only, sooo....
I like the idea of a mixed Dragon/Avangion, but I believe it states in the original material that Oronis purged himself of the Dragon transformation and reduced himself drastically in level in order to start over anew on the path to becoming an Avangion.
Well - I do have him as being a time traveler - kinda - which is why i made those Epic spells - Step into the Past and Door of Time. I have not stated him out, bu that was the assumption of his levels that I had made for my game.
See - I DO think Oronis has our would have, traveled in time - the Kreen have a legend of an Avangion that sounded rather advanced to me, and that is an old ledgend for them. The way I see it - Oronis made these time spells, visiting the past. Well, his future self may have visite him also visited his current time self - which would allow him to know what he would look like, and maybe nudgeing him along the path.
Actually, I think Oronis went back in time as well, however I think it is a future incarnation of Oronis who did that, not the current one. as such, he's not quite to the point where he will be when he goes back to basically become the Kreen "Great One". After all, I was kinda the one who threw around the whole time-travel theory linking him to the past visions of Avangions and such here on the forums ;). I also made it be linked to his stage-10 spellcasting, and that he travels through space and time (as well as potentially dimension/plane) during the period that he is in the glass case & technically at his most vulnerable.
The only problem I have with Oronis meddling in his own past or future, is that such actions create paradoxes which are next to impossible to explain away. For example if he teaches himself to become an avangion with a future/past version of himself, then how did the original Oronis, the one doing the time traveling, learn to become an avangion without assistance?
Well, the theory I presented in one of the inconsistancy threads (I believe linked in the archive stickied at top of the forum) wasn't so much that future-Oronis taught Keltis anything. rather, it was that future-Oronis was helping the Tablelands Thri-Kreen, and that Keltis had been sent by the other Sorcerer-Kings to eradicate the encroaching society before it affected something in their fragile system of checks & balances that was mandated to keep Rajaat secured. Keltis goes there, and stumbles into future-Oronis. The encounter rattles him enough that it plants the seed of self-doubt and questioning which eventually leads him down the patch to purge himself of being a Dragon, taking up the path of Preserving, and even discovering/inventing the Avangion spell line. Mind you, I'm fully of the belief that such a change would have happened even without that chance encounter, however it would have happened at potentially a much later date. The encounter simply moved up Oronis' timeline, was not plotted, planned, or schemed by Oronis to accomplish it, and is simply a chance, one-in-a-million encounter that modern-day Oronis may or may not even fully remember completely.
Such paradoxes should be avoided at all cost. Yes, perhaps he does do some time traveling, but should never be permitted to manipulate future/past events for the benefit of the present. Such actions run contrary to the character of any avangion imho.
As I said, I think you are misinterpreting the theory. He isn't doing anything intentionally for personal gain, but rather by going back into the past, and involving himself with the Kreen back then, he effectively alters his own history enough to make his progress to and through Avangionhood sooner than it would have been if he hadn't done that. It could be sooner by hundreds, or a thousand years, or more even. Heck, that very encounter could be taken as a warning by future-Oronis to be much more careful with his travels, to avoid doing something irreperable -- and then detaches himself from direct involvement in the past (at least, as far as people can tell) from that point forward -- it wouldn't be good if he changed something that resulted in the cessation of his own existance.
In mathematics there are serious headache concepts called PROOFS. Its the sort of thing that proves a concept true or fals... if the future oronis comes to the past one, and says, here's this info, and now you need to prove that its true without my help, then its like learning backwards.. sorta... (or learning the same way we're taught in school :P) you're taught to 'do' the material, then the 'why' it works part is taught... Oronis could teach him the 'do' part... give him a working spell, yet still force himself to do the research... then the spell isn't formed of nothing, and he still gets a leg up.
As for new PrCs well... what else does an epic immortal have to do? Not all are out there to kill or be killed, some may be rather aloof... works for me
It's still a paradox. A future/past self presents you with information, it is still meddling, changing the outcome or perpetuating a time loop. Your reasoning makes it so that the only way such knowledge can come about is if a past/future self presents the information to you for you to figure out. In a gaming scenario what if one of those times the loop comes back around and you fail your Spellcraft check? Then you would have to gain a level to try again. The outcome has changed, for good or ill. What then happens if an enemy picks up on this time loop and decides to go back and prevent the distribution of knowledge, or sabotage the knowledge so he kills himself. Then PC's would have to go back and undo the damage the enemy caused only to perpetuate the time loop again. Yes, Back to the Future was a cool movie, but it was also full of paradoxes.
The use of time travel should be used to learn but never to manipulate or meddle in. All such spells should fail immediately when such behavior happens.
It's still a paradox. A future/past self presents you with information, it is still meddling, changing the outcome or perpetuating a time loop. Your reasoning makes it so that the only way such knowledge can come about is if a past/future self presents the information to you for you to figure out. In a gaming scenario what if one of those times the loop comes back around and you fail your Spellcraft check? Then you would have to gain a level to try again. The outcome has changed, for good or ill. What then happens if an enemy picks up on this time loop and decides to go back and prevent the distribution of knowledge, or sabotage the knowledge so he kills himself. Then PC's would have to go back and undo the damage the enemy caused only to perpetuate the time loop again. Yes, Back to the Future was a cool movie, but it was also full of paradoxes.
The use of time travel should be used to learn but never to manipulate or meddle in. All such spells should fail immediately when such behavior happens.
Honestly, I'd have to say... I dunno. It seems people are really over-thinking all of this, and trying to make things overly complicated. I wanted the "encounter" to be accidental, something that triggers Keltis' change into Oronis early. Something he didn't plan for, expect, or possibly may not have even realized what it was when it happened to him.
As I said, I think you are misinterpreting the theory. He isn't doing anything intentionally for personal gain, but rather by going back into the past, and involving himself with the Kreen back then, he effectively alters his own history enough to make his progress to and through Avangionhood sooner than it would have been if he hadn't done that. It could be sooner by hundreds, or a thousand years, or more even. Heck, that very encounter could be taken as a warning by future-Oronis to be much more careful with his travels, to avoid doing something irreperable -- and then detaches himself from direct involvement in the past (at least, as far as people can tell) from that point forward -- it wouldn't be good if he changed something that resulted in the cessation of his own existance.
I understand perfectly well the theory. It's flawed, sorry to say
Any manipulation of the past/future will have consequences in the time stream. Whether his intentions were noble or not, does not justify manipulating events to suit himself.When it comes to a "Great One" helping the Kreen, why is it so difficult to conclude that at least one of the great preservers from the early days of magic, at the beginning of the Cleansing Wars, didn't sequester himself away to become an Avangion? Just because the inhabitants of the Tablelands haven't heard of such a person or considered such a thing a possiblility does not mean it could not have happened. Perhaps such a person forsaw the inevitable devastation to come and tried to do something about it in the only way he could?
The use of time travel opens up fun possibilites, but i maintain my beleif that allowing events to be manipulated in any way should not be permitted. after all who is to say someone couldnt go back and stop Rajaat or his Champions before the devastation ensues? That right there would open up a can of beans...
Also, paradoxes are not necessarily a bad thing. We just don't understand how time works, so we tend to resist a paradox. However, the greater structure of time itself might embrace and encompass such things. Our inability to rationalise paradoxical situations does not mean that we should reject them. Plus they make for cool games.
I had though that that material placed Oronis at stage 3 or 4 - and I think he should be AT LEAST that - Korgunard was a 3 (?) stage avangion at the end of Arcane Shadows IIRC - I would think that Oronis would have to be 2 or 3 stages higher then that.
I think that was an inconsistancy on the part of the developers. Because I could have sworn that Oronis was at most, stage 3.
I think this must be an error on your part Xlor, cuz the only material that even covers Oronis is the Wanderer's Chronicle and Defilers and Preservers (and only Wanderer's Chronicle stats his levels - as mentioned by DracoChapel)
Hes a 24th level Avangion in the revised WJ. Also says he got to the 2nd stage of dragon transformation.
This can be found on p.88-89 of the WC if you're interested.
As for why he's further than the others, even with a 1,000 year gap....well, your guess is as good as mine - we really don't know too much of his history, but really almost anything is possible.
There are no races in D&D, only types and subtypes, which are allowed to be used as prerequisites for feats and PrCs. Dragons and avangions cannot reproduce by producing more of themselves; if they try to do so they only end up producing more of their original type and subtype. All evidence in TSR materials points to this.
Actually, there are a whole sub-type of feats, called racial feats, that have certain races as prerequisites.
Actually, there are a whole sub-type of feats, called racial feats, that have certain races as prerequisites.
The word race is used in those instances, while the MM uses types and subtypes. But anyway, you know what I mean.
I understand perfectly well the theory. It's flawed, sorry to say
When it comes to a "Great One" helping the Kreen, why is it so difficult to conclude that at least one of the great preservers from the early days of magic, at the beginning of the Cleansing Wars, didn't sequester himself away to become an Avangion? Just because the inhabitants of the Tablelands haven't heard of such a person or considered such a thing a possiblility does not mean it could not have happened. Perhaps such a person forsaw the inevitable devastation to come and tried to do something about it in the only way he could?
The use of time travel opens up fun possibilites, but i maintain my beleif that allowing events to be manipulated in any way should not be permitted. after all who is to say someone couldnt go back and stop Rajaat or his Champions before the devastation ensues? That right there would open up a can of beans...
For all we know Rajaat could have figured out the Avangion transformation before the Champion one and rejected it because it was harder for him to control, or would not allow Rajaat to use the Champions as his phylacteries. The avangion transormation could have been out there already, in which case Oronis would have had his hands full trying to figure out a dragon reversal spell
Ka'cha came to the Tablelands, so chances are he also at some point visited the Kurn area, but this was 200-ish years before Keltis rejected defiling magic.
Something to think about: Wasn't there a Dragon on the calendar before arcane magic even existed?
If people "knew" about dragons before they existed (perhaps in mythology), then might they not also have "known" about avangions?I think this must be an error on your part Xlor, cuz the only material that even covers Oronis is the Wanderer's Chronicle and Defilers and Preservers (and only Wanderer's Chronicle stats his levels - as mentioned by DracoChapel)
Which still, 24th-level, in the current terms for the 3.5e rules would be Stage-4. That's a helluva lot lower than Stage-8 or 9. He's still slowly crawling up the process. He's got a fire under him though, to push forward, unlike his "peers" (the other Champions).
This can be found on p.88-89 of the WC if you're interested.
Yeah, if you noticed, I had a caveat, "I think..." in my statement. I was going purely from memory, without any books/materials at hand at the time.
As for why he's further than the others, even with a 1,000 year gap....well, your guess is as good as mine - we really don't know too much of his history, but really almost anything is possible.
Stage-4 isn't incredibly farther than the others. I have no problem with stage-4, because it reflects that he's pushing himself -- while the others are more or less reluctant to advance through the Dragon metamorphosis for various reasons.
I understand perfectly well the theory. It's flawed, sorry to say
And honestly, I think that's a rather limited view on the timeline. For one thing, we really don't know what would happen if someone altered the past, because nobody has ever done that -- there is only speculation and hypothesis without any way to test it at all. For another thing -- if you do alter your past -- how do we know it will produce a paradox at all? You could go back, attempt to change something, only to discover you don't change anything at all. Why? Because the momeny you change something, it could instantly be part of your past, and something you remember, and therefore you really didn't change it as far as you are concerned, relativity-speaking here. Sure, an event was altered, but the evidence of it is impossible to identify, because everything you do in the past, you would already know had happened.
The whole paradox concept works with the notion that you an actually break something in history. I submit that there is just as equally a valid hypothesis that you can't -- everything you do in the past, will have already happened for you, and therefore even when you try to change the past, to you and everyone else around you, you never changed it -- it all happened exactly as it was supposed to happen. All you can do once you are in the past, is repeat what happened -- you cannot deviate from it, because everything you do there, already happened in your "normal" timeframe.
When it comes to a "Great One" helping the Kreen, why is it so difficult to conclude that at least one of the great preservers from the early days of magic, at the beginning of the Cleansing Wars, didn't sequester himself away to become an Avangion? Just because the inhabitants of the Tablelands haven't heard of such a person or considered such a thing a possiblility does not mean it could not have happened. Perhaps such a person forsaw the inevitable devastation to come and tried to do something about it in the only way he could?
Well, that depends on how you want the Dragon & Avangion metamorphosis to have been invented/developed. Personally, I work with the notion that the SK's themselves came up with the metamophosis spell lines -- that they didn't exist prior to that research. That it would take someone hundreds of years to come up with the spell series in the first place, without any external assistance.
I run my campaigns with the notion that Dregoth invented the Dragon metamorphosis, taught it to Borys, who in turn handed it over to the other rebel Champions. I also run with the thought that Oronis invented the Avangion metamorphosis, which he had used much of the research for the Dragon metamorphosis to develop it, stripping the Dragon metamophosis of everything that is Defiler specific, substituting it with a Preserver specific path. I don't believe that Dregoth knew what the final outcome of the Dragon metamorphosis spell line would be, and had used Borys as a "guinea pig" to see what would happen. I don't think Oronis knows what the final outcome of the Avangion metamorphosis spell line will be either. I believe that both series' of spells are in part blind leaps that the caster takes, without foreknowledge of what the metamorphosis will do (Dragons have the advantage of being possibly able to make an educated guess, thanks to Borys' transformation).
The use of time travel opens up fun possibilites, but i maintain my beleif that allowing events to be manipulated in any way should not be permitted. after all who is to say someone couldnt go back and stop Rajaat or his Champions before the devastation ensues? That right there would open up a can of beans...
Well, I would rule that it is impossible to change the past. Any attempts to alter it, will just play out to end up just repeating existing events already in your history -- insofar that the characters would have absolutely no way to prove that they in fact did change the past -- the second you change something, that's already in your history. And to change major events would be... a challenge. If I ran a time-travelling campaign, I'd actually twist things the group was doing to make them end up helping Rajaat and his Champions cause the massive devistation to the world. But I'm a somewhat sadistic DM.
I believe that the second Oronis stepped forward to help the Kreen as their Great One, that simply became history, even for himself. There is no way to track what happened before he did that, because there is absolutely no evidence existing to ever show that. When he goes back in time, he could be doing it as a conscious effort of will to "fix" the past -- or it could be a side-effect of the stage-10 Avangion metamorphosis spell that is completely out of his control, which was my take on it. Either way, what he does in the past, already is in the timeline and history. So, when he does do this, everything he attempts to do to possibly change the outcome, doesn't work, because everything he does already happened.
Which still, 24th-level, in the current terms for the 3.5e rules would be Stage-4. ...snip...
Stage-4 isn't incredibly farther than the others. I have no problem with stage-4...
Ahh, my mistake. Suppose I was confused when you said...
I had though that that material placed Oronis at stage 3 or 4 - and I think he should be AT LEAST that - Korgunard was a 3 (?) stage avangion at the end of Arcane Shadows IIRC - I would think that Oronis would have to be 2 or 3 stages higher then that.
I think that was an inconsistancy on the part of the developers. Because I could have sworn that Oronis was at most, stage 3.
:P :P :P
How dare you be a level off!!!
That's a helluva lot lower than Stage-8 or 9.
Well, yeah. That's obviously way too freakin' high...but he did make it clear that that was for his game.
I am sure it will be interesting to see how people take to the vision that I have of the Big O (that right - he shows everyone his O-face - hehehehehehehe).
One more thing - Xlore - like I had said, I have not actually stated Oronis out that high IMC, it was just an assumption I was going with. It does not really matter what his true form looks like, because being as powerful as any of there fellers are, they can use their spells and psionics to take any form that they want.
After all if Oronis is the first avangion how does he know how the transformation will go? at least with dragons they have Borys as an idea, and why should Oronis feel his would be any different (at least in regards to the animalism).
Is it possible Oronis has stopped at the stage of transformation that he is at because he is worried about an 'animalistic stage', similar to how Nibenay was waiting?
After all if Oronis is the first avangion how does he know how the transformation will go? at least with dragons they have Borys as an idea, and why should Oronis feel his would be any different (at least in regards to the animalism).
I dunno, he might not stop, and keep going with it. He might think the animalistic rampage is due to the Defiler qualities of the Dragon transformation, or he just might not see there being any choice -- he could easily believe that Athas is in dire need of an Avangion, and therefore will keep pushing forward with the metamorphosis, more or less throwing caution to the wind.
Well there is always Athas' barrier to time travel into the past to complicate things.
Also, paradoxes are not necessarily a bad thing. We just don't understand how time works, so we tend to resist a paradox. However, the greater structure of time itself might embrace and encompass such things. Our inability to rationalise paradoxical situations does not mean that we should reject them. Plus they make for cool games.
Not when you are basing your world's foundation on the back of such paradoxes. Obviously this is a fantasy game which is only limited by a DM or player's imagination. You run into trouble when you start introducing paradoxes into the game and people pick up on them. Take "Back to the Future" for example. That trilogy was funny and entertaining but it allowed the main character to go to the past and "improve" his future which is never set right by the end of the third film. With alternate time lines and such, who is to say that the Current Athas we all know and love is the correct timeline? What if there were another timeline where Rajaat was killed during his experiments and magic was never openly discovered or taught? Which is the correct timeline? Yes, its up the the DM, but each world has to have a basic structure that is the root of all alternate timelines.
If you understood those rambling words, I guess what I'm really saying is that such paradoxes should not be included into the Canon for a game world...
Just my take, you don't have to agree.
I don't see the issue here, even if it was a paradox, as to why it is so bad. I mean, we're talking about an event that is in the recorded past of Athas, therefore the paradox, if there was one, already happened. The world's still around, no big deal. For me, it adds flavor to the process, grabbing an event that hasn't happened, and could still be a good ways off from happening in the future (Oronis' Stage-10 spell casting), and is effectively harmless. The counterarguments I've seen, are from what is a rather, not to be mean or insulting, crude and limited view on time travel, especially as there is absolutely no concrete evidence or testing of time travel ever in reality so it currently is 100% completely fiction.
For me, it works. If you don't like it, so be it. Everyone's got their own opinion, after all... I'm just astounded by the outcry against this thing. So far, the only counterargument I've seen that I feel had any validity, was the one where it was pointed out that technically, time-travel already exists in the Athasian timeline -- the Mind Lords. As such, it is something that is an interesting oddity once, but too many more times would make it too... convenient. Temporal mechanics arguments are fallacies unto themselves...
Just my take, you don't have to agree.
Well, that's a relief...
For s**** & :D :D :D :D :D , I still just want someone who writes the pdfs to stat out Oronis, like Dregoth in his adventure set (Dregoth Ascending). With written up stats, we can know what the "official" version of Oronis can do, as well as what he looks like, and if he knows time travel. I grant that Avangion isn't exactly a template, but they help with an example, and seeing a creature with the stats of an avangion would be nice, especially if it proves whether he still has any draconic holdovers, or his Champion of Rajaat template. So, does that mean Avangion is mostly satisfactory, and that the next AB is being worked on?
You will probably see stated up versions of Oronis when City-State of Kurn is released. Same thing with Daskinor. Of course, you have all the info you need, so I say go for it and make him yourself. "Official" is great, but athas.org "official" will only use athas.org rules and open gaming content, so things like Practiced spell caster and manifester are out the window right now.
I noticed there aren't any rules for ex-avangions. Do avangions completely lose the ability to defile?
I suppose they COULD defile...
But it's kinda like asking if Yoda could turn to the Dark Side of the Force⁚.
Or if Hugh Hefner might cross the tracks and be gay.
Or if George Bush might switch to be a Democrat
Or if The Pope might decide to be an Atheist.
Well you get the point...
I suppose they COULD defile...
But it's kinda like asking if Yoda could turn to the Dark Side of the Force⁚.
Or if Hugh Hefner might cross the tracks and be gay.
Or if George Bush might switch to be a Democrat
Or if The Pope might decide to be an Atheist.
Or if a paladin might take levels in blackguard.
Or if a druid might take levels in blighter.
Well you get the point...
For s**** & :D :D :D :D :D , I still just want someone who writes the pdfs to stat out Oronis, like Dregoth in his adventure set (Dregoth Ascending). With written up stats, we can know what the "official" version of Oronis can do, as well as what he looks like, and if he knows time travel.
No, you wouldn't. The Dregoth stats do not offer a comprehensive list of Dregoth's epic spells.
I am statting up Oronis, and figuring out his epic spells and epic powers, and I can tell you now that there are no time travel powers on my to do list. As with Dregoth, I'm not making a comprehensive list of Oronis' epic spells and powers. As I explained on the epic thread recently, the Cleansing Wars were probably the golden age for epic spell development since they had the loot of spoiled cities to blow through. IMO the Champions are going to have a lot of epic spells, more than we could possibly list, freeing up the DM to develop all that he wants.
There's no way I'd slap Oronis with a time travel spell, but I'm not going to come out and say "it's never happened." I hope there will be no more official references to time travel, since we've been there and done that with Mind Lords. And no references to time travel also means no one saying "there is no time travel" either. Make up your own minds, DMs.
I understand perfectly well the theory. It's flawed, sorry to say
When it comes to a "Great One" helping the Kreen, why is it so difficult to conclude that at least one of the great preservers from the early days of magic, at the beginning of the Cleansing Wars, didn't sequester himself away to become an Avangion? Just because the inhabitants of the Tablelands haven't heard of such a person or considered such a thing a possiblility does not mean it could not have happened. Perhaps such a person forsaw the inevitable devastation to come and tried to do something about it in the only way he could?
The use of time travel opens up fun possibilites, but i maintain my beleif that allowing events to be manipulated in any way should not be permitted. after all who is to say someone couldnt go back and stop Rajaat or his Champions before the devastation ensues? That right there would open up a can of beans...
Well there is always Athas' barrier to time travel into the past to complicate things.
Also, paradoxes are not necessarily a bad thing. We just don't understand how time works, so we tend to resist a paradox. However, the greater structure of time itself might embrace and encompass such things. Our inability to rationalise paradoxical situations does not mean that we should reject them. Plus they make for cool games.
Love them or hate them but the Tribe of One series of novels already has a sequestered preserver / proto avangion that used / uses time travel as a means to hide from the SKs.
It is entirely possible that this could be read as having occurred during the Preserver wars.
Just my
I suppose they COULD defile...
But it's kinda like asking if Yoda could turn to the Dark Side of the Force⁚.
Um, if I told you that Yoda actually does go DS between II and III, would that surprise you? He wants to know what kind of alure it could have that could've tempted a Master as accomplished as Dooku. He "goes dark side" for a time, and, upon learning it offers him nothing he desires, his strong connection to the light side allows him to return. People on the Internet even claim that if the Emperor had fought "Dark Yoda", he would've been defeated, but that regular Yoda is vulnerable to the dark side weakenings Palpatine uses. That's why only Mace Windu's style allows him to actually have a shot, regardless of that Yoda is personally more powerful. Oh, what? This isn't a Star Wars thread? Oops. Sorry :D
I am statting up Oronis, and figuring out his epic spells and epic powers, and I can tell you now that there are no time travel powers on my to do list.
No problem. I didin't too strongly believe that would pass scrutiny anyway. Besides, if I needed him to travel through time, assuming I ever need him at all, PLOT DEVICE might just rear it's ugly head. Kinda like making real artifacts. Sure, "mortal" beings made most of them, and some have roughly duplicatable powers, but even the epic book doens't give rules for crafting Artifacts. It's not the purvue of a PC, regardless of standing. I'd hold time travel in that regard. I've let players use a chronoplast device before, kind of like in Soul Reaver I/II, but, like in the game, they didn't dictate where it went; it was preset.
Okay, enough rambling. I just wanted to know what much more knowledgeable folks than me would've given him for levels. I might've put in some Archmage, or deemed that he had a bit more psionic power, and maybe even some ArchPsion. Maybe ignored the Cerebremancer all together, but I don't know the "flavor" of the character, or bits of the setting, well enough to know what he would've needed to have to attract the eye of Rajaat, and ten what he'd fill the gaps of his lost defiling powers with so he's roughly same level.
Odd question. When a defiling character swears off of his art, and sacrifices tainted levels, say of Dragon, can they also sac out some Raze feats, as they aren't really valid, or do they stay as a constant reminder and temptation to sin again? I suppose a reflection of being weaker by not having as many useful feats makes sense, but I just had to ask.
Um, if I told you that Yoda actually does go DS between II and III, would that surprise you?
Doesn't surprise me, just disappoints me. It tells me people just can't leave well enough alone.
The point I was trying to make would be from the point of view of character and motivation, I think a preserver that has started the avangion transformation is so committed to preserving and not defiling that he would probably rather die then defile. I don't see how an avangion would consider defiling even to save his own life. The very nature of being an advanced being puts you way on the outside of compromise. Do you see an Earth Cleric Advanced Being deciding to drop his pact with earth and start cavorting with air spirits?
To have rules for an avangion to defile is the worst example of rules for rules sake and the disregard for the story for the fluff that everyone seems to be calling it these days.
Honestly, the time travel idea I had, the one I explained in several threads, including this one, is not that the Avangion has somehow developed the ability for time travel. It is just a replacement for what the 2e materials had claimed the last stage spell had the Avangion do (travel the outer planes). I wanted it as a sort of by-product of the final stage spell, not something the Avangion can always do.
That's right; I remember. IIRC, in your story, the time travel is something that Oronis is *going* to do when he hits the final stage spell.
Personally, I think the idea is interesting but prefer a more visionary version of your idea where Oronis reaches out through time and touches dreams, etc., of people in the past, visions along the lines of what we saw in Arcane Shadows, except affecting people in the past, and being passed on through the Kreen ancestral memory.
Officially, I have no comment. My position is that Athas.org should not set out to canonize events in the future. Like Abbey's version, it's a possibility, and that's up to DMs.
I also hope everyone understood the difference between saying that "Oronis doesn't officially have a time travel spell," and "Oronis officially does not have a time travel spell." In case this is unclear, I'll rephrase: there is no official word on whether Oronis has a time travel spell.
Doesn't surprise me, just disappoints me. It tells me people just can't leave well enough alone.
The point I was trying to make would be from the point of view of character and motivation, I think a preserver that has started the avangion transformation is so committed to preserving and not defiling that he would probably rather die then defile. I don't see how an avangion would consider defiling even to save his own life. The very nature of being an advanced being puts you way on the outside of compromise. Do you see an Earth Cleric Advanced Being deciding to drop his pact with earth and start cavorting with air spirits?
To have rules for an avangion to defile is the worst example of rules for rules sake and the disregard for the story for the fluff that everyone seems to be calling it these days.
I tend to agree.
But what about those obsidian balls? In the new rules, they wipe off 1 level at a time. If Oronis doesn't kill defilers (the WC says he doesn't), but exiles him, would he not be saving plant life if he used his champion obsidian to drain the defilers down to first level before he sets them off? Is that something that you'd consider beyond the pale? Or is it not what you'd consider defiling, in the sense that an avangion never defiles?
I'm trying to explore the principle here.
But what about those obsidian balls? In the new rules, they wipe off 1 level at a time. If Oronis doesn't kill defilers (the WC says he doesn't), but exiles him, would he not be saving plant life if he used his champion obsidian to drain the defilers down to first level before he sets them off? Is that something that you'd consider beyond the pale? Or is it not what you'd consider defiling, in the sense that an avangion never defiles?
I'm trying to explore the principle here.
I don't know the specific rules by heart. But in principle, if he was going to exile a defiler from New Kurn, he would want to make that person the least potential for harm that he could. So I think that would be a viable possibility.
I define defiling as the act of drawing life energy to fuel magic without regard for the mortality of the lifeforms you are drawing the energy from. Even as an Avangion, Oronis is still gently pulling life energy from his environment when he casts his spells. To use a device to draw energy from a person with regard to that person's mortality and health almost fits the description of preserving.
In your scenario, Oronis is drawing levels from a defiler to condition him for a life outside of New Kurn, I think it is in a grey zone, but not enough to keep Oronis from doing it. With the level drain and a through mind wipe, MAYBE not killing the defiler is an option.
(I still think that Oronis would kill, or more likely allow to be killed, any New Kurnian that turned out to be a defiler.)
The point I was trying to make would be from the point of view of character and motivation, I think a preserver that has started the avangion transformation is so committed to preserving and not defiling that he would probably rather die then defile. I don't see how an avangion would consider defiling even to save his own life.
The same could be said for the relationship between paladins and evil acts, and yet fallen paladins do exist.
The very nature of being an advanced being puts you way on the outside of compromise. Do you see an Earth Cleric Advanced Being deciding to drop his pact with earth and start cavorting with air spirits?
I'd say it's about as unlikely as a dragon becoming a perserver and metamorphosizing into an avangion.
To have rules for an avangion to defile is the worst example of rules for rules sake and the disregard for the story for the fluff that everyone seems to be calling it these days.
I don't know. I think an avagion turned renegade would make for a fairly interesting story and probably an effective plot hook for an epic-level adventure.
The same could be said for the relationship between paladins and evil acts, and yet fallen paladins do exist.
I'd say it's about as unlikely as a dragon becoming a perserver and metamorphosizing into an avangion.
I don't know. I think an avagion turned renegade would make for a fairly interesting story and probably an effective plot hook for an epic-level adventure.
My problem with your idea mainly stems from the way I percieve what an avangion does. As the avangion progresses, it develops the ability to build a "wellspring" of energy for itself, to use with arcane magic. Almost like a personal "tree of life" effect. Early on, this is less potent, but as the avangion progresses through the metamorphosis, the avangion becomes less and less reliant on external energy sources, and more reliant on internal ones -- by stage-10, the avangion is relying completely on the internal energy source. Now true, the avangion *could* use external sources still, but a) what would be the point -- the avangion doing that is trapped by terrain limitations from drawing energy from plant life, those limitations become considerably lessened (or removed) if the avangion uses his or her internal energy source; and b) the avangion would really be no greater in power than a non-advanced being preserver wizard without that internal energy source, once again begging the question of why bother?
The ability to go anywhere and use arcane energy without relying on external sources is, I believe, a fundamental aspect of avangionhood. Being able to take that internal energy and channel it down to restore parts of Athas is also equally fundamental. An avangion who defiles just simply doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that it defies the very nature of being an avangion at the core. It is not like a paladin who does evil, as while you may think that's a great analogy, the problem is motivation. There is no benefits for the avangion to defile -- no great need, no temptation -- the avangion gets better ability without defiling than with. A paladin has a number of possible temptations to slip into evil, that any DM worth his or her salt would bring up through a campaign that includes a paladin.
Now, an avangion that wants to go become a dragon -- because only by being a dragon would there be any implied chance for increased power -- would need to purge him or herself from all of the effects of the avangion process before starting on dragonhood. An avangion that defiles, I would reckon would need to "purify" his or her soul before being able to continue on the spell series as an avangion -- and could be weakened to boot -- possibly the special abilities of avangionhood become faded or lost as the avangion takes on more defiling. I'd say that the internal "wellspring" of energy becomes instantly lost until the avangion has atoned for his or her actions. It would truly suck for an avangion who must constantly fly to lose the magical/psionic qualities that help keep him or her afloat in the air...
My problem with your idea mainly stems from the way I percieve what an avangion does. As the avangion progresses, it develops the ability to build a "wellspring" of energy for itself, to use with arcane magic. Almost like a personal "tree of life" effect. Early on, this is less potent, but as the avangion progresses through the metamorphosis, the avangion becomes less and less reliant on external energy sources, and more reliant on internal ones -- by stage-10, the avangion is relying completely on the internal energy source. Now true, the avangion *could* use external sources still, but a) what would be the point -- the avangion doing that is trapped by terrain limitations from drawing energy from plant life, those limitations become considerably lessened (or removed) if the avangion uses his or her internal energy source; and b) the avangion would really be no greater in power than a non-advanced being preserver wizard without that internal energy source, once again begging the question of why bother?
The ability to go anywhere and use arcane energy without relying on external sources is, I believe, a fundamental aspect of avangionhood. Being able to take that internal energy and channel it down to restore parts of Athas is also equally fundamental. An avangion who defiles just simply doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that it defies the very nature of being an avangion at the core. It is not like a paladin who does evil, as while you may think that's a great analogy, the problem is motivation. There is no benefits for the avangion to defile -- no great need, no temptation -- the avangion gets better ability without defiling than with. A paladin has a number of possible temptations to slip into evil, that any DM worth his or her salt would bring up through a campaign that includes a paladin.
Now, an avangion that wants to go become a dragon -- because only by being a dragon would there be any implied chance for increased power -- would need to purge him or herself from all of the effects of the avangion process before starting on dragonhood. An avangion that defiles, I would reckon would need to "purify" his or her soul before being able to continue on the spell series as an avangion -- and could be weakened to boot -- possibly the special abilities of avangionhood become faded or lost as the avangion takes on more defiling. I'd say that the internal "wellspring" of energy becomes instantly lost until the avangion has atoned for his or her actions. It would truly suck for an avangion who must constantly fly to lose the magical/psionic qualities that help keep him or her afloat in the air...
Very nicely described, Xlorep! And very persuasive.
Where does all that energy go, if a 9th stage avangion tries to take the 10th stage, and then the tomb is destroyed? Does it really just cease to exist in any form?
Very nicely described, Xlorep! And very persuasive.
Where does all that energy go, if a 9th stage avangion tries to take the 10th stage, and then the tomb is destroyed? Does it really just cease to exist in any form?
I dunno, never really thought about it before. Mixing in real-world physical laws would suggest it has to go somewhere (the law of preservation of energy & matter comes to mind). There's some possibilities I basically just thought of:
- The energy is released in a catastrophic event -- think nuclear bomb.
- (from my ideas as to where an avangion goes while in the tomb) The energy gets shunted through the link that the avangion makes with the past, damaging who knows what across centuries, resulting in unforseen and unexplainable situations in history. This could happen if the avangion travels holistically, or simply is an observer to the past (I believe your idea on it Brax).
- The energy gets shunted into another plane -- like the Black or the Grey.
The main theme I would see is... well... having some possible significant negative repercussions to such an event. Avangions are more or less amassing themselves with an incredible reserve of energy, that it would be, well, bad if it went awry.
Maybe the Avangion uses all the energy and creates a demiplane.
I dunno, never really thought about it before. Mixing in real-world physical laws would suggest it has to go somewhere (the law of preservation of energy & matter comes to mind). There's some possibilities I basically just thought of:
[list=1]
[*]The energy is released in a catastrophic event -- think nuclear bomb.
[*](from my ideas as to where an avangion goes while in the tomb) The energy gets shunted through the link that the avangion makes with the past, damaging who knows what across centuries, resulting in unforseen and unexplainable situations in history. This could happen if the avangion travels holistically, or simply is an observer to the past (I believe your idea on it Brax).
If by holistically you mean projecting his image, then yes, that's my own spin on your idea of time travel. That psionically sensitive creatures at different points in time, perceive some future avangion, like the Bene Geserit foresaw their messiah in Dune, or like the shaman in s1 e11 of The Dead Zone seeing/ interacting with Smith.
Interesting. Sounds like you tentatively concur that a failed 10th stage transformation arguably has an even more believable explanation for that sort of event, regardless of whether you go actual time travel or mystical projection through time.
The energy gets shunted into another plane -- like the Black or the Grey
Which might, as exiled suggests, have some genesis-like effect. in the Black. Wonder what it would do in the Grey.
My problem with your idea mainly stems from the way I percieve what an avangion does. As the avangion progresses, it develops the ability to build a "wellspring" of energy for itself, to use with arcane magic. Almost like a personal "tree of life" effect. Early on, this is less potent, but as the avangion progresses through the metamorphosis, the avangion becomes less and less reliant on external energy sources, and more reliant on internal ones -- by stage-10, the avangion is relying completely on the internal energy source. Now true, the avangion *could* use external sources still, but a) what would be the point -- the avangion doing that is trapped by terrain limitations from drawing energy from plant life, those limitations become considerably lessened (or removed) if the avangion uses his or her internal energy source; and b) the avangion would really be no greater in power than a non-advanced being preserver wizard without that internal energy source, once again begging the question of why bother?
The ability to go anywhere and use arcane energy without relying on external sources is, I believe, a fundamental aspect of avangionhood. Being able to take that internal energy and channel it down to restore parts of Athas is also equally fundamental. An avangion who defiles just simply doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that it defies the very nature of being an avangion at the core. It is not like a paladin who does evil, as while you may think that's a great analogy, the problem is motivation. There is no benefits for the avangion to defile -- no great need, no temptation -- the avangion gets better ability without defiling than with. A paladin has a number of possible temptations to slip into evil, that any DM worth his or her salt would bring up through a campaign that includes a paladin.
Now, an avangion that wants to go become a dragon -- because only by being a dragon would there be any implied chance for increased power -- would need to purge him or herself from all of the effects of the avangion process before starting on dragonhood. An avangion that defiles, I would reckon would need to "purify" his or her soul before being able to continue on the spell series as an avangion -- and could be weakened to boot -- possibly the special abilities of avangionhood become faded or lost as the avangion takes on more defiling. I'd say that the internal "wellspring" of energy becomes instantly lost until the avangion has atoned for his or her actions. It would truly suck for an avangion who must constantly fly to lose the magical/psionic qualities that help keep him or her afloat in the air...
That is a pretty good explanation. My problem with it (and what prompted me to ask my original question in this thread) is that shouldn't that explanation be reflected in the rules?
That is a pretty good explanation. My problem with it (and what prompted me to ask my original question in this thread) is that shouldn't that explanation be reflected in the rules?
Well, maybe it will end up there. After all, the avangion rules are still a "preview release". And they probably still need more polishing
If by holistically you mean projecting his image, then yes, that's my own spin on your idea of time travel. That psionically sensitive creatures at different points in time, perceive some future avangion, like the Bene Geserit foresaw their messiah in Dune, or like the shaman in s1 e11 of The Dead Zone seeing/ interacting with Smith.
Your idea is what I was calling an "observer in the past". Hollistically (which I am probably horribly misspelling by the way) is actually something I'm drawing on from World of Darkness materials (the only place I've seen that word) -- where your whole self -- body, mind, and soul travel back into time. I was merely stating that either one would work.
Interesting. Sounds like you tentatively concur that a failed 10th stage transformation arguably has an even more believable explanation for that sort of event, regardless of whether you go actual time travel or mystical projection through time.
What event?
Which might, as exiled suggests, have some genesis-like effect. in the Black. Wonder what it would do in the Grey.
That does beg the question
Hazaah for Holistic Immersion, from Mage: the Ascension (That's how my VA occupites his spare time). Here's my bit o' time-traveling question. Okay, so we know that there is psionic time travel, at least, as the Mind Lords can do it, at least once. Are we arguing that we don't even know how that power would work in this system? Or that other people can't perform their feat? You can dislike the concept of time travel all you like. When my friends and I play Stargate SG-1 d20, one of our most prevalent statements is "I hate temporal dynamics!", but hate it or not, something called time travel does exist, in published material, and it does allow one to physically travel backwards through time, and change things.
None of the above. There are other, more interesting stories to tell. I've only seen one time travel story that was worth the time, and that was one single ds9 episode, early in the series. Xlorep's idea has potential, but given the general quality time travel stories, and the fact that they tend to multiply like bunnies once you let a pair of them in, he's got a tough sell ahead of him. He may yet pull it off, but I'd not trust myself or most other writers with the time travel thing. I ran a series of adventures in my campaign that involved time travel, and while they were fairly interesting, it certainly wasn't anything worth canonizing.
BTW, I've watched each of the 206-ish sg1 episodes since the show's inception, and consider it one of the better sci-fi shows ever on TV (2nd to the current Galactica), but the temporal mechanics episodes suck almost as bad as most of the star trek ones (with the exception of one isolated ds9 episode which was quite powerful, and deservedly won awards). Obviously, tastes may differ, and obviously do since sci fi keep putting that crap out. But you asked what the reasons were against bringing in time travel explanations, so I gave you my own reasons: the vast majority of time travel stories that I have seen make me wish that I could go back in time and warn myself not to waste my time on the story. That, and my future self just appeared in my office and warned me, "don't do the time travel story. It will suck!"
None of the above. There are other, more interesting stories to tell. I've only seen one time travel story that was worth the time, and that was one single ds9 episode, early in the series. Xlorep's idea has potential, but given the general quality time travel stories, and the fact that they tend to multiply like bunnies once you let a pair of them in, he's got a tough sell ahead of him. He may yet pull it off, but I'd not trust myself or most other writers with the time travel thing. I ran a series of adventures in my campaign that involved time travel, and while they were fairly interesting, it certainly wasn't anything worth canonizing.
I know that my idea is a hard sell, and that a lot of people will knee-jerk react to it. I also know that everything people drum up about "temporal mechanics" is untestable, and therefore not part of any scientific theory. So, I like to have fun to rewrite it a bit, and make something that stands out.
One of my thoughts along those lines is to take your idea of "peering into the past", which I do like (where the avangion is actually simply an observer, and not physically there). But then also the thought of what would happen if the glass case/tomb was damaged while the effects of the stage-10 spell was cast: what if that forces the avangion to become trapped in whatever time in the past he or she had been observing? Disappearing in the present, and becoming stuck. That would make for an interesting twist in the idea of the "great one" being Oronis -- because if he was actually physically there in the past as an avangion, maybe that means something happened to his case/tomb. Further ideas would be: what if said avangion, trapped in the past, begins to "bleed out" excess energy and eventually withers & dies, due to the nature of the stage-10 spell being abruptly stopped like that? Then the "Great One" (stage-9.5 Oronis in my theory) could have simply eventually dissolved or died in the past, trying to affect some kind of change in the world, but ending up failing, dead, dissolved, and gone. Oronis' tragic end comes just before his final moment of triumph.
BTW, I've watched each of the 206-ish sg1 episodes since the show's inception, and consider it one of the better sci-fi shows ever on TV (2nd to the current Galactica), but the temporal mechanics episodes suck almost as bad as most of the star trek ones (with the exception of one isolated ds9 episode which was quite powerful, and deservedly won awards). Obviously, tastes may differ, and obviously do since sci fi keep putting that crap out. But you asked what the reasons were against bringing in time travel explanations, so I gave you my own reasons: the vast majority of time travel stories that I have seen make me wish that I could go back in time and warn myself not to waste my time on the story. That, and my future self just appeared in my office and warned me, "don't do the time travel story. It will suck!"
I will agree, there's a lot of really bad time travel stories out there. But I don't see that as a roadblock to stop me from attempting to get a good one in edge-wise.
I will agree, there's a lot of really bad time travel stories out there. But I don't see that as a roadblock to stop me from attempting to get a good one in edge-wise.
The main road-blocks are getting people to take your proposal seriously, and even then, getting them to believe that others will take the story seriously, and not get distracted into non-Dark-sunnish stuff.
With me, you're over the first hurdle, even though my initial prejudice led me to scorn. You won me over without lashing out at my prejudice, and that bodes well for you getting over the first hurdle with others. The second hurdle is still a problem for me. I'm concerned that even with a really good time travel story in DS, that we're going to see more arguments like this:
If nothing else, I think one could travel to the Demiplane of Time/Temporal Energy Plane, follow the lifelines back, and exit in another time, assuming they can reach said plane. Magical TT shouldn't be allowed; the sheer amount of life energy required to breach time should crack the planet, but psionic time travel could be possible (for 30th-level Psychoporters, like the Mind Lords could be). How one would build the epic power, I don't know, but it should exist. In the end, what I would do, probably, is just say "as you activate the time travel power, the mists swirl in around you. You see blackness, stars, and numerous energy lines (lifelines) reaching off in two different directions, beyond sight. As you stand there, a man walks up to you." This is when a Time Guardian arrives, and a plot-device, dramatic duel occurs, that the player inevitably loses, and is dumped back into their starting spot, or die, depending on the mood of the game. Just make time travel uber-hard, unless it seems to fit with your story.
and there goes the future development of the world as we know it.
As I see it, the three main types of time travel crap out there are the "fate" setup, and the self-reliant paradox setup, and the sloppy inconsistent setup. Somehow "the visitor" episode of DS9 that I spoke of above, used tragedy to steer between the fate and the self-reliant paradox setup. That's why I suggested a botched transformation as the basis ... since heroic (non-greek) tragedy's the only model that I've seen that made time travel work as a story. If I were the storyteller, I'd steer clear of greek tragedy elements that take out free will ... Oronis is someone who broke free of compulsion.
I know that my idea is a hard sell, and that a lot of people will knee-jerk react to it.
Like I did, until I looked more carefully and realized you had a pretty cool idea in the works. My objection now is that if we let this one cool story in, it will open the floodgates to a lot of crap, and change the focus of story development.
One of my thoughts along those lines is to take your idea of "peering into the past", which I do like (where the avangion is actually simply an observer, and not physically there).
I know you know my idea, but just to clarify for others, my adaptation of xlorep's idea (and I'm *not* proposing making my adaptation official), I see the avangion as more than an observer; I think that the thri-kreen Ka'Cha actually observes the Avangion, in visions or such. And that those visions have been carried down through the kreen ancestral memory.
To try to give you an example from earth mythology, here's a hypothetical:
[INDENT]let's say that a hypothetical prophet on earth told his followers about a vision that he saw about the creation of the world. Let's say he told his followers about this vision on seven consecutive days. They remember the account of vision, but continue to break it up into seven days, and pass it down to their descendants until it gets written down. Even though the text account doesn't explain the context of the "days" frame, it's possible that some might think that it meant that the world was created in seven days, rather than the vision occurring over a seven day period.[/INDENT]
So like my example, the kreen ancestral memory remembers the images, but not the context they came in. They remember the avangion as if he was physically present, even if Ka'cha personally recognized that the avangion was some sort of projection or vision.
But then also the thought of what would happen if the glass case/tomb was damaged while the effects of the stage-10 spell was cast: what if that forces the avangion to become trapped in whatever time in the past he or she had been observing?
Exactly.
Disappearing in the present, and becoming stuck. That would make for an interesting twist in the idea of the "great one" being Oronis -- because if he was actually physically there in the past as an avangion, maybe that means something happened to his case/tomb.
The only difference between that and what I was picturing it is that I see him not physically in the past, but that his energy is projected there. Here I'm thinking about that marvelous "wellspring of energy" idea that you suggested as the basis for Avangion power.
Further ideas would be: what if said avangion, trapped in the past, begins to "bleed out" excess energy and eventually withers & dies, due to the nature of the stage-10 spell being abruptly stopped like that?
Yes! Exactly. To me that makes more sense if he's only present in the energy form, i.e. that the physical form of Oronis is trapped somewhere around Free Year ninety or whenever he attempts the 10th transformation. Nothing to bottle that energy in.
Then the "Great One" (stage-9.5 Oronis in my theory) could have simply eventually dissolved or died in the past, trying to affect some kind of change in the world, but ending up failing, dead, dissolved, and gone. Oronis' tragic end comes just before his final moment of triumph.
Sounds like a compelling story, and worthy of Dark Sun. I wonder how much of himself Oronis might preserve within the kreen ancestral memory, though.
My concern, as explained above, is that even though your story may be compelling and DS-worthy, that its bastardized wannabe progeny might take the whole community and story in an undesirable direction, making time travel a major Dark Sun theme, rather than one more instrument to explore Dark Sun themes.
I just wanted to state that I'm really liking what your two brains came up with here, Brax and Xlor. Though, I do think that fear of what others might do with a good story is reason not to move foward. Let others do with it as they will. Let's simply make our duty to ensure that the official stuff maintains a higher level of quality.
I'm glad you like it, Squidfur. I'd not be surprised that Xlor thought of the destroyed tomb idea before it occurred to me. Xlor's really thought this through for a while and I'm a newcomer to this idea. And even if I did contribute something to his story, I can hardly step in and take co-credit for his work here. But so far I like it and support it.
The "Oronis time-traveling" idea I've had stewing for a while. Brax had provided an idea for how to make it work, while make it not be "just another time-traveling escapade", which is what I've been wanting all along. Something singular and controlled. I definitely will be taking those ideas, and concerns of yours to heart.
I just wanted to state that I'm really liking what your two brains came up with here, Brax and Xlor. Though, I do think that fear of what others might do with a good story is reason not to move foward. Let others do with it as they will. Let's simply make our duty to ensure that the official stuff maintains a higher level of quality.
Oronis time-traveling isn't an official stance at all.
A couple of points spring to mind however.
Brax has made silimlar comments in a couple of his posts so i apologise if this goes over old ground.
Xlor - Is the time travelling limited to the one event - 9th to 10th avangion transition?
If it is not and Oronis is able to move through time, there are some things he could potentially do that could have major repercussions.
For instance, if he used the knowledge of the Cleaning Wars gained as Keltis he could conceivably go back in time and change the course of battles or potentially prevent one or more of the SKs even becoming SKs.
Going one step higher - how about the assassination of Rajaat - all carefully planned of course.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not necessarily against him having this ability but what a burden it would be on him knowing he could change the past for the better but risking the future when doing so ?
What would stop him ?
time travel makes my brain ache I would rather have the Avangion transformation be a representation of a sort of convergent evolution, and have way back in the Thri Kreen prehistory have the existence of an Advanced Being that was similar to an Avangion.
I also like the time-travelling idea.
A couple of points spring to mind however.
Brax has made silimlar comments in a couple of his posts so i apologise if this goes over old ground.
Xlor - Is the time travelling limited to the one event - 9th to 10th avangion transition?
Yes. Xlor was first talking about a physical movement across time, but a one time event, right when you said, to the time of the Kreen prophet Ka'cha. What I've been talking about, is that he does not physically time travel but that this mid-transformation avangion exists in a state where a handful of people in different times could see him. Like Paul in the book Dune, or like Smith in that 11th episode, season 1 of the dead zone, called "Shaman." He communicated across time with Ka'cha.
Lately we've been talking about an actual power projection across time, still not a physical travel, but actually a light manifestation that people could literally see, hundreds of years ago, and communicate with.
If it is not and Oronis is able to move through time, there are some things he could potentially do that could have major repercussions.
For instance, if he used the knowledge of the Cleaning Wars gained as Keltis he could conceivably go back in time and change the course of battles or potentially prevent one or more of the SKs even becoming SKs.
Going one step higher - how about the assassination of Rajaat - all carefully planned of course.
As best I can tell, none of us is saying that any avangion could be able to control the time travel, or even to know that he was going to time travel. No one's made the transformation before. And as we've been discussing lately, it's *not* an effect of the transformation, but of a botched transformation. It's what happens when the tomb gets broken before the transformation's over. You spend a few hours or days or years as a being of energy, fading away in another time period that you didn't even choose.
Or was there something in that time period, some ritual or artifact or strange action that snared this avangion's fleeting essence, like a branch poking out from the cliffside, before it dissapeared from the cosmos?
Or was there something in that time period, some ritual or artifact or strange action that snared this avangion's fleeting essence, like a branch poking out from the cliffside, before it dissapeared from the cosmos?
...possibly serving as some small glimmer of hope at saving the avangion???
My weird idea is to "save" him, in at least one sense one sense, by encoding him into the ancestral memories of the Kreen. That could be simply figurative, meaning that they remember The Great One, his teachings, and his nature, or you could take it more literally, meaning that there's actually traces of something that you could recover, given the right magic, psionics, and whatever.
Another reason I did the spells was because the Dragonlance time travel spell was so flawed that I wanted to laugh - but instead I just overcame my initian distaste for the idea of time travel and then came up with the whole metaplot of the game I was just then starting. (we are currently level 12 and on the cusp of starting the DA adventures - which I have changed slightly to go with my overall plot).
You know, as much fun (?) as time travel is, I am going to laugh extremely hard if in the end, rather than time traveling, someone just used powerful magic or psionics to affect the minds of the kreen into thinking stuff happened that didn't. I don't remember the details of what the connection is/might be between the thri-kreen and Oronis, but if it was convenient for him to have them positively disposed toward him, it might be possible to affect their hive mind/racial hreditary memory into thinking stuff that helps him. Can't really be any harder than time travel.
Much less dramatic, and I dunno, just doesn't seem story-worthy to me. I usually like to make a setting a bit more exciting than that option, which honestly, seems very benign.
Personally, I don't really like time traveling Oronis. If he was so distraught about wiping out an entire race, whether he truly succeeded or not, if he could time travel, he could've gone back, grabbed a few lizardfolk he knew Keltis wouldn't miss, and bring them back to the present. Keltis would never know, and no "lizardfolk signal" would ping, and Keltis would be oblivious, so little to no paradox.
If the time-traveling ability was something he could control, IF the time-traveling ability was something he even was aware would happen. See, that isn't even part of the process I've described in multiple threads. It was something unexpected, something even he didn't know would happen. And the newer idea is that it is something tragic -- stuck in an energy form, slowly bleeding away all of what is left of himself, trying to make some kind of a difference in the world before he completely fades from existence -- leaving an imprint and impression of himself on the Tablelands Kreen of the "Great One".
Oronis hasn't done this though, and I think it's because he CAN'T. There just isn't enough energy left in Athas to fuel that kind of power, and, if there were, he would've used it to change a few things. maybe save another Avangion or two, bring back some lizards, or even bigger things. That's my take.
Ok, about the power thing. Here's the deal -- Arcane magic, like pretty much any magic, needs a source on Athas. However, magic items seem to have an endless supply to keep themselves going without that requisite source after creation. Oronis, once Keltis, already had a couple of the stages of the Dragon metamorphosis sketched out/figured out, since he was already on the path of absolute destructiveness. He redeemed himself, and begins development of a preserver version of what the Dragon metamorphosis is for Defilers. Probably working closely with not only fellow preservers, but I'd reckon also a few epic druids if not a Spirit of the Land to pull it off. He rips apart the Dragon metamorphosis to purge it of the defiler aspects, and the process is instead developed to be using ideas on how magic items can retain their energy, as well as probably how a Tree of Life functions -- which fundamentally restructures how the preserver metamorphosis works to something non-destructive. An avangion becomes its own energy source -- much like how a Tree of Life is a continuous energy source, as well as how magic items are able to have continual energy within themselves.
This results in a potential for an energy source capable of providing the time-travel effect... but not something that can continually do it, nor probably repeat the results. When the Stage-9 Oronis in the future prepares and casts the Stage-10 spell, and goes into his tomb, he is physically still within the glass case/stone tomb. However in a method similar to how the Mind Lords were able to peer into the future, the spell effects lets him look into the past (after all, avangions *are* psionic beings too, and there is an established precedence for psionics to be able to look through time). Now, when Oronis is observing the past... something happens to his protective glass case/stone tomb, resulting in it becoming damaged. The energy of the whole spell process, intermixed with his nearly completed avangion font of energy interacts with this "time observation effect", thrusting the energy-form/being of Oronis into whenever (and wherever) he happened to be looking at at that time. His physical body withers and fails -- all that goes back is this energy form. People in that time are able to see and hear him. The bad news is that this is very unstable, and that energy which is all that is left of Oronis is bleeding away, and within a decade (or less) he ceases to exist at all.
Why did he end up back with Ka'Cha? Who knows. Maybe he was observing the Kreen, looking into them and how the Crimson Savannah is still green, possibly taking in ideas on how to help restore the Tablelands. Maybe by the time he cast that Stage-10 spell, the Tohr-Kreen Empire had invaded, and he was looking for a way to stop or deter that process. Who knows? But the important thing is, he happened to be observing those slave-Kreen at the time that his glass case/stone tomb was damaged. That's where and when he ended up.
What does this all mean? It means that in the future, when Oronis finally achieves the means and power to cast his Stage-10 spell, at the cusp of his final moments of triumph, he fails. The beacon of hope towards a better Athas crumbles. And the effects of his failure are retained in the genetic memories of the Tablelands Thri-Kreen -- who remember the "Great One", who helped rescue them from their enslavement in the Tohr-Kreen Empire.
This version of the idea erases the "temporal paradox" side-idea I had (which never was the focus of my previous "time-travel" idea), where Keltis runs into his future self. It doesn't really make any impacts to the existing timeline/history, it does resolve one of the inconsistancies (Avangion/Great One), and it puts a darker, more Dark Sun spin on Oronis' destiny.
Wow, Cliff's story is...well, sad. Oronis actually dies! Athas' greatest potential hero... So its perfect for Athas!
Its like a David Gemmell book - he is a favorite of mine.
Why did he end up back with Ka'Cha? Who knows. Maybe he was observing the Kreen, looking into them and how the Crimson Savannah is still green, possibly taking in ideas on how to help restore the Tablelands. Maybe by the time he cast that Stage-10 spell, the Tohr-Kreen Empire had invaded, and he was looking for a way to stop or deter that process. Who knows? But the important thing is, he happened to be observing those slave-Kreen at the time that his glass case/stone tomb was damaged. That's where and when he ended up.
Or perhaps its just something as simple as this event being a geographically localized phenomema, ie. he end's up with Ka'cha because that location (albeit many-a-year after the fact) is where his glass case is damaged. Of course this opens up another can of worms...Why's his glass case NOT in Kurn? Did something happen to his beloved city? Maybe he was found out by the other SKs?
Or perhaps its just something as simple as this event being a geographically localized phenomema, ie. he end's up with Ka'cha because that location (albeit many-a-year after the fact) is where his glass case is damaged. Of course this opens up another can of worms...Why's his glass case NOT in Kurn? Did something happen to his beloved city? Maybe he was found out by the other SKs?
Possibly, but I'd tend to think that just happened to be the time & place he was observing when it happened, rather than where his glass case is at. But it does raise the question -- what happened to it? If the glass case was in Kurn, was Kurn sacked & destroyed?
Is the Avangion PrC designed to end at 10, or could it continue, if a character chose to continue in it? At least the Avangion Metamorphosis feature says every six levels, which means 6th, 12th, 18th, etc., unless it caps at 10th, and then you get it only once. I suppose every feature other than some gained at 1st level do come at proper intervals to continue beyond 10th level.
Any news when we might get a reply? Doug? Jan? Cliff? Anyone?
The only merge we did was a file merge. It looks logical that all the advanced beings are published in the same file. However, this could wait after the four classes are finished. Until that, you guys can publish them in separate files.
Beyond the file merge, we never tried to merge the classes. You can separate them easily (if you want, we can do it for you). What about our format suggestions and comments? That is the main purpose of the file, not the file merge...
Cliff,
The only merge we did was a file merge. It looks logical that all the advanced beings are published in the same file. However, this could wait after the four classes are finished. Until that, you guys can publish them in separate files.
Beyond the file merge, we never tried to merge the classes. You can separate them easily (if you want, we can do it for you). What about our format suggestions and comments? That is the main purpose of the file, not the file merge...
Sorry, I must have had it confused with another file. I honestly haven't had the time to really look over it. I might be able to soon. And yes, I do agree that logically, it does make more sense to have all of the Advanced Beings in one file. Heck, ideally, the "Psionic Enchantments" would be something in a single location within that file, where all the Advanced Beings could choose from them (some with prerequisites & restrictions, similar to feats, of course).
Does this mean that we can now get the specifics of the Transform seed, as used for these two PrCs? (Assuming it isn't already released.) It would be kind of nice, after all this time. :D Otherwise, what's next?
Nothing big, just to make everything easier to understand for those who are not veterans.
Okay, I've begged, and am looking forward to the Avangion update (favorite AB of DS). Now I'll watch for it.