I'm a Ravenloft fan and know a few things only about Dragonlance. Of course, RL and DL shared many NPCs, and the most famous is Lord Soth.
Can someone describe me the final moments of Soth when it came back to DL? What happened to him in the story and why?
And in which novel is it?
Thanks!
Joël
Cheers,
Cam
Soth's fate is recorded in "Dragons of a Vanished Moon," the third in the War of Souls trilogy. I could spoil you on the scene, but it's so much more interesting to read it.
Cheers,
Cam
To understand it all, do I need to read something else b4 this War of Souls trilogy?
Joël
Spoiler
Mina: Lord Soth, help the dark queen.
Lord Soth: No.
Mina: Die!!!!!
Lord soth dies.
Granted this is a pretty bare-bones and over simplistic version of what happened but you get the idea.
It was pretty simple
Spoiler
Mina: Lord Soth, help the dark queen.
Lord Soth: No.
Mina: Die!!!!!
Lord soth dies.
Granted this is a pretty bare-bones and over simplistic version of what happened but you get the idea.
OK, so he messes with a last chance to save somebody (and himself).
A friend told me he becomes human again then gets a mountain thrown at him?
Joël
A friend told me he becomes human again then gets a mountain thrown at him?
Mina grants Soth his humanity and restores him back to life with the power of the Dark Queen, thus freeing him of his curse, but then causes Dargaard Keep to collapse around him, crushing him.
Cheers,
Cam
A really crappy ending for such a great villian.
It was my favorite chapter of the book.
Cheers,
Cam
It was my favorite chapter of the book.
Cheers,
Cam
Eh....
Soth shouuld have been a Mina's side for a while, then finally when he was sick of Takky antics then an only then he should have given her the finger.There was no build up, no hint at all of Soth previously. He is there all of a sudden then he dies. What I am trying to say, is if that chapter hadn't been in the book, it wouldn't have mattered a damn, he should have been interwoven more with the story.
And W&H only killed him off because they were being childish and not wanting others to play with their "toys".
Maybe one day if we are lucky, they will grow up and join us in the real world.
Oh well. What is done is done.
And W&H only killed him off because they were being childish and not wanting others to play with their "toys".
Maturity usually requires that statements like this be avoided, you know. You can express your dislike for something in a book without leveling personal attacks at the authors and ascribing behaviors and motivations to them that don't exist.
Cheers,
Cam
Don't exist?
I think the point was that if you haven't met them, and don't plan to, it might be a little difficult for you to know what their specific motivations for killing off Soth were.
...the lack of respect W&H have often shown for the other authors
I don't think there's a Dragonlance author writing today who would have a single bad thing to say about Margaret and Tracy. Margaret, for instance, is a constant support and advocate for her fellow authors, and so I think tossing out random conspiracy theories about them or anybody else is both ignorant and insulting.
As I said, I think it's every reader's right to be upset or happy or indifferent towards these books. Maligning or putting words into the mouths of the authors is a very different matter.
Cheers,
Cam
i just wish he had, y'know, done something before he died. anything. the way tracy implied. Soth has to go down as the most underused awesomeness in DL history, i think.
Nothing's stopping authors from going back and writing novels before the War of Souls that feature Soth, you know.
Cheers,
Cam
So yeah, Soth has a history of letting people down. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myriddian
...the lack of respect W&H have often shown for the other authors
I don't think there's a Dragonlance author writing today who would have a single bad thing to say about Margaret and Tracy. Margaret, for instance, is a constant support and advocate for her fellow authors, and so I think tossing out random conspiracy theories about them or anybody else is both ignorant and insulting.
As I said, I think it's every reader's right to be upset or happy or indifferent towards these books. Maligning or putting words into the mouths of the authors is a very different matter.
Cheers,
Cam
Where is this quote of Myriddian found, because I couldn't find it.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Where is this quote of Myriddian found, because I couldn't find it.
Deleted I'd imagine. Another sign that freedom of speech is a thing of the past.
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I am hunting the WoSouls trilogy books!
I'm not going to touch the supposed motivations of the authors, but I read here that Soth's (final) death was somewhat unnecessary? It didn't add something important to this story?
Joël
... I read here that Soth's (final) death was somewhat unnecessary? It didn't add something important to this story?
I couldn't disagree more. His choice to finally reject the Dark Queen sealed her fate and redeemed his own soul, which is one of Mina's first - and greatest - failures; suddenly she doesn't look so invincible.
Oh, this has gotten in another direction
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I am hunting the WoSouls trilogy books!
I'm not going to touch the supposed motivations of the authors, but I read here that Soth's (final) death was somewhat unnecessary? It didn't add something important to this story?
Joël
Darthsylver's post is pretty close to what transpired in terms of conversation. Throw some descriptions of how Dargaard Keep was brought down on top of Soth after he was made mortal again, and there you have it. For me, the absolute most underwhelming chapter in DL history. He was killed off so fast, you'd think he was the equivalent of the Star Trek 'red shirt' on an away team. He didn't do ANYTHING and just got wiped out. Of course, if you want to read into it, there are those who believe it was the ultimate culmination of his character- that he found redemption after hundreds of years of torment (the banshees (or whatever they are being retconned as- keening spirits?) left him prior to the War of Souls, so he could come to terms with his guilt and accept himself again without them constantly singing their songs of guilt). Personally, I think he was tired of being another's puppet, and stood up for himself- and was punished for it, but to each their own. (the entire confrontation with Soth took up roughly 6 pages)
And they probably are.
Oggie
he's going to be in Dragons of Highlord Skies. since it takes place concurrantly, or in the neighborhood of, Winter Night and Spring Dawning, i don't know exactly what new we'll learn from this.
It'll be nice reading about him again, even if it's in a limited capacity. Unfortunately I don't think it will shed very much more light on what happened to him, as the gray area concerning what he was up to takes place after Legends. In Ravenloft lore, he was taken by the mists shortly after the events in Legends, and was supposedly brought back a little before the War of Souls. Of course since this was written off as never having happened according to the official DL stance, and there is no other story to account for his down time (and apparent revelation enabling him to refuse Tak when Mina approached him), I guess we'll never know what really happened to Soth.
he's going to be in Dragons of Highlord Skies. since it takes place concurrantly, or in the neighborhood of, Winter Night and Spring Dawning, i don't know exactly what new we'll learn from this.
From the timeline slot of Dragons of dwarven depths (which takes place between Dragons of Autumn Twillight and Dragons of Winter Night) it will probably take place between Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning.
Something that I never got was, if Banshees are evil creatures, then why in the world would they leave Lord Soth so he could come to grips with his life.
As far as for him standing up forself, I don't even think it was that. I thought he felt jipped that he never got Kitiara's soul and finally just gave up.
Something that I never got was, if Banshees are evil creatures, then why in the world would they leave Lord Soth so he could come to grips with his life.
I didn't think they were true banshees per se, just the cursed souls of the elven women that convinced Soth to turn back and confront Isolde (sp?) because they hated that he took her from them. Then, when the gods "departed" (Takky stole the world), that's when they disappeared. I don't think they just left him alone, they were forced to leave.
Least that's how I understood it; guess it's another one of those "Soth's story open to 15 different interpretations" deals. LOLOL
From the timeline slot of Dragons of dwarven depths (which takes place between Dragons of Autumn Twillight and Dragons of Winter Night) it will probably take place between Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning.
Something that I never got was, if Banshees are evil creatures, then why in the world would they leave Lord Soth so he could come to grips with his life.
As far as for him standing up forself, I don't even think it was that. I thought he felt jipped that he never got Kitiara's soul and finally just gave up.
I don't think they left of their own choice. I think what was inferred was they were drawn away from Soth when all the incorporeal undead were drawn to serve the One God during the War of Souls. Tak inadvertently provided Soth the 'gumption' to refuse her by doing this, since the banshees (keening spirits) were no longer around to sing of Soth's sins. With that reprieve, he supposedly came to accept what he did, and thus found peace.
The part about Kitiara's soul was touched on briefly in Legends, but wasn't a major factor to Soth after that, at least in terms of DL lore. In Ravenloft, it was the driving force for almost everything that brought Soth to the Demiplane of Dread. But as the powers that be have declared, Soth never went to Ravenloft, so it's all a moot point.
I didn't think they were true banshees per se, just the cursed souls of the elven women that convinced Soth to turn back and confront Isolde (sp?) because they hated that he took her from them. Then, when the gods "departed" (Takky stole the world), that's when they disappeared. I don't think they just left him alone, they were forced to leave.
Least that's how I understood it; guess it's another one of those "Soth's story open to 15 different interpretations" deals. LOLOL
I think it was originally written that they were banshees, but in 3.x it was soon discovered that having banshees with higher CR than Soth himself seemed odd, so they were retconned as keening spirits.
I think it was originally written that they were banshees, but in 3.x it was soon discovered that having banshees with higher CR than Soth himself seemed odd, so they were retconned as keening spirits.
They were originally groaning spirits, actually.
Cheers,
Cam
They were originally groaning spirits, actually.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah, your right, I stand corrected.
Ghosts at any rate. Funny thing though, the mention of groaning spirits is in the War of the Lance supplement, yet in the back of the very same book in the NPC write-ups, they are referenced as banshees. Go figure. Ah, your right, I stand corrected.
"Groaning spirit" is their AD&D Monster Manual name, but "banshee" was given as an alternate. Whoever created the stats for the 3rd edition banshee in 2002's Monster Manual II was trying to plug a few holes in the ranks of powerful high-level undead, thus throwing the groaning spirit's CR right off. The keening spirit template in City of the Spider Queen was an attempt to correct that.
In Dragons of Autumn, we just went with the ghost.
Cheers,
Cam
Woulda been neat to read about Sturm, Tas, Gil, and Laurana's trip to Ice wall in detail too. Wonder why they didnt do that.
Woulda been neat to read about Sturm, Tas, Gil, and Laurana's trip to Ice wall in detail too. Wonder why they didnt do that.
That's also in Highlord Skies, apparently.
Cheers,
Cam
very nice! that'll be a fun read too then, makes me want the book even more....
Too bad it won't be out til late next year, I knew I should have waited to read "Dwarven Depths". LOLOL